Brenda Lucki
Brenda Lucki spoke 639 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
(Inaudible response)
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Brenda Marie Lucki, L-U-C-K-I.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Good morning.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you. Generally, my role as Commissioner is to oversee the operations and administration of the RCMP. In relation to the convoys, obviously, we had convoys across the country, so I was getting operational updates in our jurisdiction. When it came to the specific convoy in -- or the protests in Ottawa, there was a few roles I had. One was to -- I was liaising with Chief Sloly on a couple of occasions, relaying resource asks that we received. If I was in receipt of those resource asks, I would pass that down through our command structure. It was also one of the major responsibilities was to get the information from across the country and to brief the Deputy Minister community, the Ministers, there was four Ministers that we would -- that I would brief. And then halfway through, the Prime Minister called Incident Response Group where I would brief situational reports from across the country of anything that was happening related to the convoy. And generally speaking, I had to make sure that in our police of jurisdiction that our divisions had the resources, ensuring that they had the resources, the equipment that they needed to deal with those incidents.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, and I believe it also included Minister Alghabra, the Minister of Transport, as well as the Minister of Governmental Affairs, Minister of Law.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Mostly at the Deputy Minister level we would have discussions. I am not sure who all was there, but it was mostly at the Deputy Minister level, the representation of the same Ministers, of the DMs of the same Ministers I mentioned before.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. We normally have those meetings, and we sort of morphed it into convoy briefings as well.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I was.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I was.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Reverse.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Reverse. Gold, silver, bronze.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, this falls under our Contract and Indigenous Policing business line, and it is the policing that we do in all provinces and territories except Ontario and Quebec. It represents about 70 percent of our workforce and they’re contracts with provinces, municipalities and some Indigenous communities. The contracts are held by Public Safety Canada, and we provide the policing service under those contracts in those provinces. We don’t do policing in the entire province. Why I say that is usually in big municipalities; for example, in Alberta, you have your Calgary Municipal Police, you have your Edmonton Municipal Police, and then generally speaking, the RCMP. There’s a few smaller ones like Lethbridge, but generally speaking, we police the rest of the province, except for some of the bigger municipalities who have their own independent police agency.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, very similar to what the OPP or Sûreté du Québec are.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It -- no, not necessarily. We have 194 contracts -- 169 contracts. Some, in the case of B.C. for example, the Province has the contract and they sort of subcontract. But in places like Alberta, they have a provincial contract, and then they have municipal contracts. Any municipality over a certain population will go into a municipal contract, and it changes the funding formula. As well as there are certain Indigenous communities where there’s a different funding formula.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, this is the beauty of our model, in the sense that under the Provincial Policing Services Agreements that we have, we can move resources. It’s called an Article 9. So in the case of Alberta, Commanding Officer Zablocki can move resources from within Alberta as he wishes, just advising the Province of that, if we’re doing any big movements of resources. And then again, under a different subsection of Article 9, we can request up to 10 percent of resources in any other province. And so what we do is we normally -- if it’s urgent matter, we move the resources and then ask for permission later, because we’ll never compromise the safety of Canadians. But generally speaking, when we know big events are coming on, we will prepare those letters in advance. The letters go from myself to the Minister, the Minister to the applicable policing jurisdictions. And it’s always based on a cost recovery.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. And that’s exactly what ended up happening in Alberta during these convoys. We do also have access to federal resources, like Deputy Commissioner Duheme was saying, across the country. Those don’t fall under those agreements. They’re federal resources.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely, because we have the same, more or less, training standards and service standards across the RCMP and that flexibility allows for, especially in extended events, where you’ll have multiple -- you have to provide relief, and you can’t sustain things like the forest fire in Fort McMurray, the man hunt in Manitoba. You can bring those resources in seamlessly because they have the same level of training and the same equipment.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, first and foremost in the requests, they weren't requests for plainclothes officers, which is what we primarily do in -- within Quebec and Ontario. We -- obviously they're police officers, so they have uniforms, they don't work in those uniforms each and every day, so when we make requests for the federal resources in a uniformed capacity that's changing their role, their primary role. Within the two provinces, it's a lot easier that outside of the provinces only because we have control of the federal resources, but also because they can drive into Ottawa. But they don't come in a big chunk, so when we need additional resources we fan that out from Deputy Commissioner Duheme to the commanding officer of Ontario and Quebec requesting additional resources, and then they do their -- what they need to do to get those resources, and they will come individually, or you know, driving however they get there. When we're doing the same thing nationally, of course we have to request the -- under the PPSA, the Article 9, and then we get into way more logistics in the sense of flying them out, are there going to be vehicles available, what kind of shifting are they going to do, what types of resources do you need. Because in -- especially in the contract policing environment, we have a multitude of different types of resources within the uniform capacity. So it's -- we need to know what kind of resources and how long they'll be gone. Because when we take resources out of the contract side of the house they have to be backfilled somewhere else because policing goes on. So we have to make sure that all of those logistics are done at that level.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh, go ahead. In a general sense, any requests that we got from Ottawa Police Service we had fulfilled, and in the beginning it was between 30 and 50, for example. And when -- that was the first weekend. And as the time went by, the resources started to increase. So we had not only increase of frontline resources, but increasing at the NCRCC when we got into a unified command, there was people behind the scenes, those numbers were increasing. And at one point, I think we got up to...
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Speed up.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I will add as well there was the whole -- we had also provided resources to Windsor, so we diverted some resources for the Windsor blockade.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say generally it started at around 30 and then it continued up in the 200s. It got up to about 200 throughout that timeline. And then, of course, when we were gearing up towards the actual enforcement in that last week, the numbers grew exponentially, and that’s when we went outside of the -- up till then, the resources were drawn from Ontario and Quebec primarily, and it was in those last week where we were drawing resources from across Canada.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, I’ll start and then I’ll pass it over to D/Commissioner Duheme. But part of the confusion came out of the fact that we were swearing in a bunch of officers that may, in fact, be used, but weren’t being used, so we -- that were in the vicinity, so we made sure, like D/Commissioner Duheme said, we swore in some of the people under protective in case they were brought over to assist in OPS. So their numbers even -- they were swearing in certain numbers. Those numbers might have not all been deployed at that time of the swearing in. Also, the fact that there was requests and some of it was -- there was confusions over is it so many per shift or is it a total number. But from the tactical or from the -- you know, the bronze level of our command that we were talking about, we were advised that any of the requests that they had for frontline -- when I talk about frontline resources -- we fulfilled those requests. And I think there was a confusion between what the Mayor may have been reporting and what the Chief may have been reporting, but we were advised at the tactical level that any time they needed resources because that’s where they get into what kind of resource, where are they going to be placed, what shift are they going to be working. That was all done at their level. We didn’t -- we didn’t get the intimate details of that, but we were advised that any of the requests that they were getting through the command centre that they were fulfilling.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Substance, yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
What was the date of the letter?
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Seventh.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
At that point when there was a request for 1,800 resources -- and obviously, I was in consultation with the OPP Commissioner. And it tells what kind of officers, but it wasn’t is it 1,800 RCMP, is it -- you know, because there was still the OPP who were responsible for securing resources from all the various municipalities. We were under the impression that it was 1,800 between all of us, and what did that mean, who was going to provide what resource. And when we get into these high numbers, that’s when we have to ask, okay, what is the plan. What -- where’s your plan, how are you going to rotate these resources, what kind of resources specifically? And it sort of talks about that, but 100 civilian staff, what does that mean? There’s all kinds of duties under civilian staff. The Public Order officers, 600. We don’t -- you know, to have 600 Public Order officers, the OPP was actually responsible for the prioritizing of Public Order officers within the province of Ontario during that time. Did that mean they were going to provide the Public Order, we were going to provide front? So until we saw what the plan was because the minute we draw outside of Ontario and Quebec, we have responsibilities to our contracts. We have to know when we draw them out how long are they going to be gone, when are they going to be replaced, how are they going to get there, what are the logistics. Is there equipment that they can’t bring with them that they need when they land like certain vehicles or command centres in the -- in the case of Public Order? If they are going to drive their command post, then they need lead time. So there’s lots of things to consider. A general request like this, it sort of, in a way, caught us off guard because we didn’t have those discussions with Chief Sloly up to that time. There was talk about increasing the resources for enforcement, but we didn’t get into any specifics until this letter came out.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, because it wasn’t -- even though it was to the federal Minister who was in charge of -- you know, oversees the RCMP as part of his portfolio, we didn’t assume that we were being asked for 1,800, so did it mean that three-quarters of those resources would come from Ontario and 300 or 600 would come from RCMP? We needed to see a plan, so this is from, you know, politician to politician, but we needed to translate that into operational plans. So we wanted to see what the plan was and what kind of resources specifically they needed with what skill set and with what equipment.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I'll be honest. I didn't know the nuances of the Ontario Police Act until this convoy because we don't fall under the Ontario Police Act. So when it -- but like I said, at the beginning, we just provided resources directly to Ottawa Police Service. They didn't go through the OPP. This was, you know, assistance to a neighbouring police service and we provided that. And even subsequent requests wasn't going through that. But when it got to this number, that's when the OPP Commissioner explained to me the process, of which I wasn't aware of, that such requests should go through the OPP, and then the OPP would exhaust all avenues within the province of Ontario, and if required, would come to outside -- you know, they could go to, like, another municipality, like, Edmonton City Police or a different police services, or they can go to the RCMP. And it wasn't until we got that big ask that I was getting more information about the Ontario Police Act.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, first and foremost, any of the deployment of resources is the government -- or the Minister has nothing to do with that. This is operational decisions, and we make those operational decisions based on our availability of resources, our ability to deploy such resources. If in fact, like, obviously, this was -- the last example you gave, this was a letter from the mayor to the Minister. He would pass the letter on to us and say, "Here's a request." And he would never say fulfil this request. He would say, "See what -- you know, here's the request. Deal with it what you can do," depending on the numbers, because we may not have the numbers available to be able to do that. And that's why we were surprised, because it never usually goes to that level. It usually just goes, you know, from police service to police service. If they require assistance, they would come through our police service. We would fulfil it when we -- as best as we can. Because in this particular convoy, our goal was to assist Ottawa Police Service as much as we can -- we could, so that they could be successful in putting an end to the protest. As far as the -- any of the operational decisions, the government isn't involved with that and it's just more of an information where we provided -- you know, we're providing additional resources to Ottawa Police Service. Those were our situation in -- those were included in situational reports to the Minister and the Prime Minister.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, obviously, the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Rob Stewart, would have been sort of the interlocutor between the Minister and myself at times, but when we were -- we were doing three briefings a day. One was at the Deputy Minister level, one was at the Minister level and after I think February 10th or so was at the Prime Minister level, so there was lots of briefings on the situation, the movement of resources, if it -- only if it included RCMP because that's the ones that I would report on. But generally speaking, we didn't talk about numbers of resources specifically with the Ministry.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Mark Flynn is the -- he's the second in charge of federal policing. I don't know his official title.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, because often -- normally, we'd be in a room, and they'd be in the room with me. I'd bring people to assist with the information because there is often questions that I wouldn't know the answers, so I'd have my team. But when it was, like, for instance, on the weekends, often people would be at home, so we would just create a Teams meeting.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Lametti.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, because I think up top it says who is this speaking, and because I'm a slow typer, I probably ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And a bad typer obviously.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Probably at the time, I would know what he was talking about. Now fast forward, I have -- I can't connect the dots at all. We had -- like I said, there was so many meetings going on, three or four, sometimes five a day during this time. And if you had asked me at the point in time, I could probably give you a lengthy explanation, but I have no idea.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. When I look at that, there's a lot of things I think that it could be possibilities. It could be the fact they could be talking about our protective mandate and making sure that we -- our plan is going. I honestly, I wish I could help you with this. I have no idea what the reference was to this.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I believe so, yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Is me.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, generally-speaking, and I had mentioned it earlier, is our goal, and especially from my point of view, was how can we help Ottawa Police Service succeed in this occupation of downtown? And so now we're into the second weekend. Of course, there's much we can do during that weekend because the numbers are -- have grown exponentially. So I think, first of all, when they first came on the very first weekend, people assumed that they would -- the convoy would come into town, would -- they had an agenda, they'd follow their agenda and then they would leave. And when that didn't happen and we got into the second weekend, nobody saw -- we didn't -- from my point of view, we weren't expecting that, for them to stay that long, and now it's -- they've -- they're creating infrastructure, they're disabling vehicles, so now they're there for -- which appears to be a longer term. So instead of reducing the footprint, which is always our goal in protest, to reduce the footprint so that if you do go into enforcement action you can do it the safest way possible with the least amount of resources, it was increasing exponentially. So of course, people were losing confidence in the OPS's ability to deal with the situation.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, we always got the same question each and every day, "When is this going to end? How is it going to end?" And we really couldn't answer that. And of course, early on we weren't intimately involved with what was going on, so there obviously could have been negotiations with the protesters, the leaders of the protest groups. But people from the outside looking in weren't seeing any decrease in the activity, they were seeing the opposite, they were seeing increase in activity from the protest groups and more people getting involved, especially on the weekends, so of course, people were wondering if there was ever going to be an end to this because they hadn't seen any outwardly enforcement action. So it was -- in a way it's -- it wasn't a completely, if I could use the word, educated point of view because nobody knew the nuances of what was going on tactically from OPS, it was just a comment from the outside looking in.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, when we had deputy ministers meetings, people were -- nobody said out loud that -- I don't recall people saying, "you know what, we're losing confidence", it was my observation by the various comments about "How come this is still going on? When is this going to end? How come it's getting bigger?" So from -- I was inferring from those comments "When is Ottawa Police Service going to do some enforcement? When are they going to deal with this situation?" I could hear the impatience, I could hear the frustration, and from that, I inferred that they were losing confidence in Ottawa Police Service.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So that's all about let's help them get a plan together so that we can help them with safe enforcement. So again, on having experience in public order, it's all about minimising the footprints. You won't do that on those weekends, as we all saw the numbers grew exponentially, so obviously any enforcement action should be between, generally- speaking, between the Monday and the Friday where the footprint was minimal, and so helping them get to a place... Because we knew that the numbers were too big even with a minimised footprint for them to handle it themselves. And they've -- they already mentioned that they needed assistance from the various police agencies, so how can we help them do that is that what I ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- was referring to.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I would imagine.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
"I".
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Very early on, when they talked about Emergencies Act, I had no idea what exactly that meant. And there was talk about "Well, what happens if Ottawa Police Service cannot enforce or have the ability to deal with the situation?" And there was talk about, you know, "Do you change leadership? Do you change police?" It was all in general conversation, nothing specific, and really, it was from a place of problem-solving. Everything was put on the table and it was -- so that was one of the things that came up, whether or not that could actually happen. That's when I started learning more about the Ontario Police Act, where if they started to go through the process of the Ontario Police Act, they would in fact be the OPP that would be next in line to assist. And so it was just -- all it was was sort of let's -- we need to help Ottawa Police Service as best we can so that... Tom Carrique and I had lots of conversations about helping Peter succeed through this unprecedented event, and doing what we can through resourcing, through equipment, through advice any which way we could to help them get through the situation.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can you scroll up a bit?
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm imagining, again I'm speculating because there was a lot going on. I don't know who "he" is in this reference, but obviously it's somebody talking, I'm imagining one of the ministers, or somebody in that meeting, about what are the next steps if in fact OPS needs further assistance? I’m not exactly sure what it means -- what she means by that, but I’m just wondering if there was any -- she’s asking is there any other options besides us taking over?
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I think there was a misconception, because people automatically assume the RCMP being the federal police agency, that that’s what our responsibility was. So there was a bit of education on that in saying, of course, when people are looking at solutions, one of the solutions was, well why doesn’t the RCMP take over? We got asked that quite often. We’d say, “Well, it’s not our -- we’re not the police of jurisdiction. We don’t have jurisdiction in the Province of Ontario. There’s a lot of other layers before coming -- you would never come to the RCMP. That’s not our role.” But I think there was an assumption, because we’re the federal policing or national policing agency in Canada, there was an assumption that that’s what that meant. And so we were trying to educate Deputy Ministers and Ministers that, you know, our role is not to overtake any police agency. We’re here to assist in any way we can.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well there were things like, “What do you need? Do you need anymore resources or any equipment you need? Is there anything we can help you with that would help Ottawa succeed in this event?” Because I was the touch point for all police agencies. So whether it was Windsor, Coutts, the -- you know, the Lower Mainland, it was always -- whenever any big event happens, I always get the same questions, “Do you have everything you need? Is there anything you don’t have that you need? Please come to us.” So I get those same questions.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well we were, again, when they were talking about us potentially, and it wasn’t very lengthy conversations about us potentially taking over, there’d be snippets of that that would come out and we’d have to correct that, saying that wasn’t our role. But obviously it was all hands-on-deck on the solution, problem solving. So people were asking, you know, is there anything else that you could do to assist that you’re not doing? Is there -- how can we -- again, when is it going to end? How is it going to end? Do you need anything to help make it end? Those were questions that were getting asked quite often.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not specifically in those terms. We would -- they’ve asked us, “Are you giving --” you know, “Are you able to give them the resources that they’re asking for?” That was one big question, because between the Mayor and the Minister, there was talk about resources. And we were explaining that a lot. As you mentioned earlier, the confusion over the numbers. And we were -- we told them we were giving them everything they needed. And when they’re ready to enforce, if they require additional resources over an enforcement plan, we’ll be ready to assist. But there was nothing specific like what -- how you mentioned.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely not. There was a lot of -- we -- I didn’t feel the pressure from our point of view, because we weren’t the police of jurisdiction, but I did feel the pressure internally, because we wanted to do everything we could to help Ottawa Police Service. But as far as from the politicians providing direction or pressure, there was, in general, wanting to find an end solution to this, of course. Within our own organization, especially on the gold, silver, bronze, when they all came together, everybody was rolling up their sleeves trying to figure out, “How are we going to end this?” And how are we -- you know, “How are going to deal with?” So we were putting a lot of pressure on ourselves, from an organizational point of view. And I would say that the politicians felt the same pressure of wanting this to end. And of course, they’re -- you know, like you said, they’re asking, you know, “Are we doing everything we can to help them?”
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And our answer would be the same. “They’re leading it.” It would be -- and often I’d say it’d be like Chief Sloly going to Edmonton City Police and telling them, you know, what to do. There’s jurisdiction, and there’s jurisdiction for a reason. And they -- despite -- even at the final days of enforcement, Ottawa Police Service had the lead in that, and that was very, very important, that they -- there always has to be somebody who is taking the lead, and it’s the police of jurisdiction.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well for me, it’s pretty clear. Anything operational, we’re advising what’s happening, but we’re not taking direction on how to do things. And we’ve never been provided direction on how -- what we should do. And it was actually interesting, I think, in one of the meetings, because normally when I brief, I brief generally speaking, the Minister of Public Safety, and sometimes now that they’ve split, the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. In this case, there was additional Ministers. So I think it was maybe the first IRG, or maybe even the First Minister meeting, where I believe it was Minister Mendicino advising these Ministers that, “You are not to provide direction to the Commissioner.” They remind themselves. My Ministers don’t need to remind themselves, because we deal with them on a daily basis, or regular basis, but with the new Ministers, there was even just a reminder, because sometimes what happens is when you’re into problem solving, problem solving can sometimes translate into, you know, “We should do this and we should do that. Could we do this and could we do that?” And sometimes that -- people might feel that that’s direction. I don’t consider any of that direction. Direction to me is something that you specifically would turn to me and say, “Commissioner, we need you to do this,” or, “Don’t do this.” That’s direction. That’s interference. We don’t get any of that. It’s strictly an exchange of information, for the most part.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, we don’t have a police commission. We’ve just brought in, in the last couple of years, a Management Advisory Board, ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
In the last couple years, we’ve just brought in what we call a Management Advisory Board, but they are there to provide advice to the Commissioner. They do not -- they don’t -- they’re not the filter between us and government.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, there's no institution in between the two of us, but we definitely have our policies and our procedures and our direction, and under the RCMP Act, I am in charge of the operational command of the RCMP. I can get Ministerial directives from the Minister, but it's in regards to administrative matters. But I won't get anything -- for example -- if I was to get a Ministerial directive, and I'm just hypothetically speaking, that I felt crossed over in the operational domain, I would bring it to my legal advisors and say, "Is this crossing over?" You know, so I'm just trying to - - as I'm talking, I'm trying to think of some body that would act as that and the only people I can think of is probably legal advisors that may, in fact, if I felt that happening. But I've never had to -- in meetings, I've never had to really, you know, tell everybody to stop and you're crossing the line because it's -- they're very cognizant of it and they're very protective of it, because we have similar countries in the five eyes that are struggling with this and they actually come to us and ask how we do it. But it's basically from previous testimony at the Mass Casualty Commission, I'm -- because I've been asked this question several times, I think it's time that we put something to writing that outlines the -- what you can and cannot do from both the Commissioner's perspective and the politicians, especially from a rotational point of view. There's a lot of different -- you know, politicians change, so that they are understanding, because we're not the only operational entity in the federal government. There's Corrections, there's Border Services. So I think it's time to clarify because it's been a topic of conversation.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, actually, I think one of the members of Parliament has put in a private members bill on that very subject and said, "It won't be difficult to do because there's many police agencies who have examples of what needs to be put in text to make this happen because it's already out there." And I'm just -- the name is escaping me, but there is a private member's bill to discuss this very issue.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, absolutely, because in the last six months I've had to respond to it on several occasions, and so ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- my hope is that my replacement won't have to, so we need to clear this up.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It's not mine.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
If I could also add. Not being intimately familiar with what OPS was doing, they could very well have been in negotiations with protesters. And we always say in Public Order, if you're -- in -- sorry, in protests, if you are in negotiations with the leaders or various people in these protests, while you're still having the conversation is not -- you're not going to go into enforcement. So not knowing that, we could only speculate that they could go into enforcement when they might in fact be in the midst of negotiating a peaceful resolution.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, because part of that when we're dealing with protests you have taskings going to your Police Liaison Teams who are dealing with the leaders of the protest group. From what I understand it was a little bit more problematic because generally-speaking you have one leader, in this case there was several leaders, so obviously it makes the task a little bit more difficult when you're dealing with quite a few different people. But it's all about having those conversations about how to find a peaceful way to get an illegal blockade back to a peaceful protest.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not necessarily, it depends on the dynamics. Because if you are negotiating and there's problems where people -- where public safety is at risk you may in fact have -- you may be in negotiation and still have your Public Order teams staged at a location, so you still may need them just in case in the event. Every protest is different.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So there was conversations about the protest groups wanting to talk to a -- an official, like a politician, or an official of some sort, and nobody was sure if it was at the provincial, municipal, or federal level at that point. And so I believe that Deputy Minister Rob Stewart was tasked with looking into the possibility of having a -- an official speak with the protesters. And he wanted to know how that works with the liaison teams and how they -- what they're doing as far as negotiations with the protesters. Because we weren't involved with all of that, I reached out to Tom Carrique, and Tom Carrique advised me that it was in fact the OPP Police Liaison Team that was leading the negotiations with the protesters, and so I asked if I could connect the lead -- who the lead was of that team and if I could connect them with Deputy Minister Rob Stewart so he could get more information. And really, my role as a facilitator, and I introduced the two of them so they could talk. Later on, he was coming up with this protest engagement strategy. I think he asked, you know, what we thought of it. I sent it back to my team who deals with liaising. We have a different structure but the same idea but different structure. I gave it to them to say is there any red flags on these documents or is there any advice we can provide Deputy Minister Stewart. I think we provided him a bit of advice on that. I think as well I included asking Inspector Beaudin what he thought of what I had said, but then I had already realised that he had reviewed the document I think, so it was just a matter of connecting Deputy Minister Stewart with Inspector Beaudin on this protest engagement strategy as one of his tasks.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not me, specifically. It was Deputy Minister Stewart who was leading that, and any thoughts I had on it I would have provided to him.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that was when it was completed.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, both myself and Commissioner Carrique were briefed on the plan the Friday before that. Like, I think it was around February 11th, we got an actual briefing from the planners on the plan. And yeah, we -- yes, we were satisfied with the plan.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, but they also did take into consideration because around the same time the -- Ontario had put in their Emergencies Act, so there was talk about how that would affect the plan or not. And going forward, there was talk of the Emergencies Act, which nobody really knew what that meant, and just that, a recognition that if in fact any other legislation or authorities came through, we’d have to adjust the plan. But it wasn’t taken into effect in the planning of it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not at that time, no.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Both.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Depending on -- the Deputy Minister -- the Minister’s meetings were generally virtual. Many of the IRGs were in person.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Pretty well, I don’t want to say 100 percent, but pretty close at the beginning of each of those meetings, after they brought up the agenda, I would be generally the first person they would go to and I’d give that situational overview and literally be reading those key messages. So most all of the information that were in those key messages were delivered. There might have been some exceptions, but very minor in nature.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sometimes what would happen would be a very similar document was delivered at the Minister’s briefing, and then there might have been slight amendments, because the situation changed, but that would be the only reason why it would change. But generally speaking, the DMOCC, the Minister’s meeting, and the IRGs were very similar messaging.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would read through it. I would read through it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
My speaking notes. Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I was representing, for the most part, all law enforcement. So we would gather up the information from the various protests, it didn’t matter which police was the jurisdiction. I would report on behalf of police, which is often what happens when there’s a national event.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well it’s in reference to discussions on the implications of the Emergency Act. And that’s where I had mentioned earlier about being consulted as to whether the -- any of the authorities that they may provide us would -- we would be able to enforce, if there was any challenges to that enforcement, and it was doable, so to speak, from a law enforcement perspective. We were also consulted on potential authorities, and so we created a little list of what we thought would be potential authorities early on. And in here, you see there’s a few examples of additional tools that would be useful.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
At that point, I don’t believe so. I think we did consult internally within the RCMP, where, like, B.C. is -- B.C., Alberta, and Manitoba especially, because that’s where some of the protests were in our area. I don’t believe we reached out to all of the other agencies. Like, all other police agencies. I wasn’t -- I don’t think, because of -- possibly we weren’t to reach out outside of the RCMP on this because it was part of Cabinet.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Confidence.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I’m guessing. I don’t know specifically, but I don’t believe that we reached out to other police agencies, but there could have been talk at the planning level like through the National Capital Region Command Centre or the Integrated Command Centre. They may have spoke about it, but I -- you would have to ask the D/Commissioner Mike Duheme because I wasn’t involved in that command structure.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not sure of the timing. I know that there was an email exchange with the Chief of Staff, so I don’t know if it was before or after this meeting.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I think we would have been exchanging verbally. Like D/Commissioner Duheme said, it happened so fast. There was -- Deputy Minister was working on this. We weren’t in the working group. We were just brought in as subject matter experts on various authorities that -- potential authorities, but we weren’t in the drafting of any of this. That wasn’t our role. So this would have been provided probably verbally. We would have spoken about it and then obviously, because I was asked in an email, it was provided in writing.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I believe so, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I may have been there in person. I’m not sure. I ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, the team wouldn’t have been there. I might have been there in person or it could have been on video. There was a couple on video, and so I don’t know which ones.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Possibly, yeah. There was always -- usually a spot for a situational update. Sometimes on -- on the IRG there was always -- usually a spot for me to provide a situational update depending as they got closer to the -- there was one that I didn’t -- I believe I didn’t provide much of an update because there was a discussion mostly on the - - on the Emergencies Act, so it wasn’t about me providing information. It was just discussing the Emergencies Act.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't believe so.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think, though, in that -- the IRG from February 13th, I did provide some information on the plan in general, but not with this latest development.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure. Because this was on the 14th?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Because I believe in the IRG notes that I provided I did speak about the plan. So I am not sure if that in fact -- why that was put on there.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, they're not -- like, I don't know -- I've never seen these. Like, these aren't ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- my notes or anything.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No idea, because I would assume -- because in the IRG of the 13th I briefed him on the plan. So I don't know why on the 14th it says that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Anything's possible, but generally speaking I was always was turned to at the beginning of all those meetings and with the speaking notes. So I'm not sure about the discrepancy.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Anything's possible. I don't want to refute the notes of the scribe if that's what the scribe wrote. The only thing I would say is I would have to look -- if they had -- if there were any notes on the IRG that were shared, then I would be able to compare that if I did in fact. Because usually when I was briefing in the IRG, that would've been shown.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So that ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Is this during -- is that the timeframe, just to be sure, this timeframe of 1754 is when the IRG was going on?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It would indicated in all likelihood I wasn't, but I guess ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- I'm just going by these notes. It appears that that's what it's ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- leaning towards, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't think so. I think I was invited to support the minister, but I didn't speak at that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, and if I was to brief on the plan, it wouldn't have -- I wouldn't have briefed them on the plan. I would have just told them of the existence of a plan to go forward ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- but not the nuances. But it would -- from what you're saying, and like I said, there was five or six meetings a day, it sounds like that's how it might have occurred.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes and no, because we had spoken about the fact that we had an integrated planning cell, that we were bringing together a plan, an enforcement plan to go forward. So there was talk about a plan and that a plan was in progress. I reported on that, I believe, in my previous IRG. So it wasn't a brand new concept. But, yes, in fact, the fact that we now had a plan, I'm not sure if it was signed off either as of that point because we were having difficulty getting it signed off. We didn't realize it needed to be signed off. But I know that on that same day, like, we -- I think it was the Sunday that would have been, I'm guessing, the -- that was the 13th. I'd actually, I think, reached out to Chief Sloly about signing off the plan. I'm not sure the timing on that. But the existence of a plan was known, just the fact that it was official or not official wasn't reported on.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, because I believe in the second IRG, which was on the 12th, I had spoken about the integrated command, a centre had been stood up, that a plan was -- we brought in planners. They were in the process of doing a plan. I believe I reported on that. I'd have to see the notes though. But I didn't officially, going to your point that, you know, that could have -- that wasn't reported that the plan was now officially signed off or officially in place.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I guess in hindsight, yeah, that might have been something significant. Honestly, there was so much information going back and forth, I'm not sure, you know, where they were at in the invocation as such. I know they were talking about it, but it was very, very fluid. Obviously, I'm not sure if it would have changed anything in the sense that these were -- even, like, now, I'm going to use my hindsight, the plan ended up -- those authorities ended up to be useful with the plan, if I use my hindsight, because it wasn't whether or not we'd have -- we were still -- we would have still been looking at enforcement, but we needed ways to reduce the footprint. So we were using some of the authorities obviously under the Ontario Emergency Act. We weren't incorporating anything on the Federal Emergency Act because it wasn't in place. But we didn't have when exactly the plan was going to start, or we knew it had to be starting in the weekdays as opposed to the weekends, so now the plan was in place and the implementation would have been the next exact when we were going to implement it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Go ahead, Mike.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think what I'll mention, what's important to note is that early on, the OPP Commissioner took control of all the Public Order Teams in the province, and they would decide what priorities, where each Public Order Team would go because there was a lot of things happening in different areas. So he had announced, and I think actually you were -- Mike might have been on a meeting at that time where he talked to all the Chiefs of Police in the -- or the majority of them and said that he will be -- do not deploy your Public Order Teams. We will decide what the priority is and we will deploy as and when necessary. So that request came from OPP. At the time, there was no active enforcement going on in the Ottawa area, so we felt -- because we had a team that was originally from that area, although -- and they might have even been back in their area in Ontario, that we could redeploy them to Windsor.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
We didn't get into the -- you know, the specifics of the plan. The fact that the OPP Commissioner was deploying the various Public Order Units and the fact that he was sort of taking the -- not -- he was in charge of the -- what was happening in Windsor, and they had this enforcement plan, we had advised that we could provide that Public Order Team. Is that ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, there's always -- like, even in the early days of the Ottawa convoy, we gave, you know, 30 to 50 resources with the idea that there was a plan for those resources, but we didn't get into the intimacies of the plan in that instance, nor did we do that with the Windsor. The fact that they were going into enforcement, we knew that. We knew that they had an enforcement plan, that they were going to go what we call kinetic and actually move the protesters. We knew there was a plan. So that's why that's a specific type of resource. It wasn't a frontline group that they were asking for. They were asking for a Public Order Team for enforcement purposes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. I should add though, like, they were going into enforcement action, and on the ground in Ottawa they were not. So I wouldn't ever say that one was a higher priority than the other. They were just at different stages.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, vaguely remember the meeting, yes. I don't -- these aren't any notes I've seen before.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I vaguely recall the meeting, yes, but I ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- don't recall the notes. I ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- I wasn't given these notes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh, my goodness. I don't think people appreciate the amount of meetings we had. I could have very well said something to that effect, we were now going into enforcement. That was the beginning of the enforcement stage. So it was, you know what, this is time for us, as police, to get credibility back from not doing anything for many days and we all need to succeed, so let's, you know, use the regs and anything we can do to help. It would have sort of been just a little bit of a pep talk, but you know what? To ask me if I recall if that's exactly what I said, I honestly couldn't tell you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, it's all about, like I said, reducing the footprint, so that when we go into enforcement, there's as few people as possible, so not -- because we have the invocation of the Emergency Act, let's not have people come into the protest area. Let's make sure there's no kids there. Let's make sure there's, you know, motivating and incentivizing people to leave, so that we can get down to the minimum amount of people in the footprint, so when we enforce, it'll be much safer for everybody involved. And that was kind of the essence of the plan.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, if they -- obviously, if they're applicable and there are things that we can use, yes, most definitely.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
M'hm.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, we didn’t. I delegated it to Comm. Tom Carrique.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I was allowed to delegate it. So in the event, let’s say, we didn’t use it in RCMP jurisdiction, but if the -- if Commanding Officer Curtis Zablocki needed that authority, I could’ve delegated it to him -- which I didn’t, because things were solved before that happened. But because we were going into enforcement action, I delegated that authority to OPP Commissioner -- to the OPP Commissioner.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, and this was primarily because I have no knowledge of the tow truck situation in Ontario. Each police agency has that -- they know -- they have that knowledge, so for me to use that authority in a place where I have no jurisdiction wouldn’t make any sense. So I would’ve done the same in Quebec if they had needed that, because it’s -- we’re not the police of jurisdiction.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I have no idea. It’s the first time we’ve ever had that power, so there wasn’t a playbook on what to do with that. You know, I delegated it to him so that he could use that authority. I would assume that they would take, you know, account for that authority, but it wasn’t -- we didn’t have a conversation. I know there was an actual delegation document I signed. It may have had some instruction there, I can’t recall.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not to my knowledge, no.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wasn’t aware of any of the details of the tow trucks.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. It was just if, in fact, they were going to use that authority, I would -- I delegated it to them. It wasn’t -- I wasn’t sure if it they would even use it or not, but it was delegated. I was assuming that they would need to use it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was a big bill.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Under the Emergency Act, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, I assumed that if they had to compel tow trucks under the Emergency Act, that we would -- in fact, the federal government would pay for that. But if they had the ability to get the tow trucks on their own, then it wouldn’t be under the Emergency Act, and we wouldn’t be paying for it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I have no idea.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I guess it’s an integrity issue.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wouldn't remember.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It would be sheer speculation. I honestly don't -- I would say that it's about talking about if and if they needed to go to the Ontario, I don't even know, Ontario Police Commission.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
"I didn't get it."
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, it could be -- "I didn't get it." I don't know if they're talking about the mission statement, "I didn't get it." That's how I'm ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Or I didn't -- looking at the modifications -- the ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- mission statement, am I saying I didn't get it, I didn't get the mission statement? I'm not sure. "Are they going to the province or not regarding".
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can you scroll ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Just to see if I can jog something in my memory.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Maybe go to the next ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't know what he means by: "...the modification is simply at the high political element of the plan." Can you keep going? I have -- honestly, I have no idea what that all -- like I -- I can understand what some of the comments mean, but I don't know the context. Right? I can't seem to put it into context.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, not at all.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm trying to put it together.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
"Yay or nay".
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think this is about something completely different.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I think, and I'm not sure, but I think it's about Coutts, actually.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Coutts.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I recall.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, that's ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, because this is three hours later, or four hours later.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. So that's how I -- before I even saw that that's how I figured. Because Deputy Minister Stewart was speaking regularly to the Ottawa City Manager, so yes, that's what it refers to. I asked Deputy Minister Stewart if he could reach into Steve, and I won't try to pronounce his last name, he was the City Manager.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, Kanellakos, sorry.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Steve K.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Because obviously we didn't want to lose continuity. We are just now ready to put -- implement the plan, the Integrated Command Centre was going to take that integrated plan and implement it, so it was important that we didn't -- since Peter -- Chief Sloly wasn't there, and the Deputy Chief Bell had been involved with the plan and ready and knew about the plan to have somebody new come in because there was talk, rumours I guess that they may bring somebody new in, and that would delay us going into enforcement action, so we were hoping that one of the deputies -- well, Steve was the obvious choice because he was taking the lead. It could have been Deputy Trish McPherson, I think it was ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Ferguson that could also have taken the place, but we knew that it was -- he was going to be the Deputy Chief -- he was the senior Deputy Chief.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. It wasn’t about who would be the new Chief of Police.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Interim -- by interim would be somebody that was already in place by -- de facto it was Steve Bell, but it was -- could have been “Joe Schmoe”. It was whoever was already in place.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It wasn’t about who was -- Deputy Minister Stewart had -- I never talked to Steve at all. He had -- they had had communication -- regular communication. For me, it was about the relationship that they’d already established and that because we were on the verge of enforcement that it was only about can we continue on with the enforcement plan under existing personnel, and that was the goal. That it wasn’t about put Deputy Commissioner Steve Bell in that position so he can be the Chief. It wasn’t influencing them on who was going to be the Chief. Just the continuity of the plan because that would have set us back if we had to brief somebody new and put somebody new in the position. I didn’t -- I didn’t look at it in the eyes that you’re looking at.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Like I said, I didn’t know how -- how their structure worked at all. It was just a connection into Ottawa Police or that’s the person that was -- that they were dealing with. I didn’t understand the Board concept.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, just that it would be preferable. Ultimately, the decision is theirs to do what they wish, but we were on the verge of enforcement and it would be preferable if we had somebody who was already in the chair knowing what the plan was so that we could move forward because it was literally the 16th, which is on the Wednesday. We were full blown going into the plan and to stop that and knowing that the weekend was coming, we had -- that plan was originally supposed to be a four-day engagement plan into enforcement, but because we had a late start on it, we only had two or three days before the weekend was coming, so time was not on our side.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, exactly.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would have to see our assessment, but if he’s saying that the RCMP said that ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can’t speak for sure. I don’t have any of the documents.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t know what the Assistant Deputy Minister said yesterday, but what I can say is I would have to look at the RCMP threat assessment documents or any of the requests to know what the threat environment was throughout the convoy, just to be fair.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well I assume it does, but others don’t.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Not intimately, but.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I guess.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not intimately familiar.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say though, we do get direction on the administration side of the policing, but not the operational side.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
You’ll have to be more specific of what you’re referring to.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
But what are you referring to specifically?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There was no pressure to do that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. The Minister asked me if in fact the information about the firearms would be part of a media release.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
He didn’t ask me to put that in there.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s not the context in which that was taken.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry, they asked us to what?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely not.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
We were never asked to give any operational plans. We did brief generally that there was a plan, but we never went into the -- I didn't get briefed on the plan until February 10th I think it was, or February 11th, but we didn't ever give them ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- they had never asked for the plan.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I think there was -- the Cabinet meeting was on the 13th.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not on the -- definitely not at the Cabinet meeting and I don't -- what I did do -- I don't think I spoke at either. I thought I did because I had speaking notes, but I did brief the Minister before that meeting.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
In respect to what?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, he would have to ask CSIS that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's what I've been told.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Very often, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that was our goal.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I believe so.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, 7:25 p.m., I thought -- I'm sure -- I think the Cabinet meeting was at night so ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think that Cabinet meeting was that night, so I'm not sure, I thought it would have already been in progress or obviously it wasn't. I'm not sure what time the Cabinet meeting was that day.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Everything was time sensitive, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I have the -- I'm not sure how those ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- times work.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Subtract five, yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I was just going to say I'm never up past 10 o'clock so ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- surprised I would have responded.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Right away, yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, we had already consulted within our organization to the commanding officers. I'm not sure if we were able to consult outside of the RCMP because of Cabinet confidence.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure what they were thinking. But just given the time, it was very quick turnaround. I would not have put that together off the top of my head. I would have got that information, that information was already established. And if you look, it's quite detailed. I wouldn't have just been typing that off the top of my head. I would have got it from somebody. And the fact that it was so quickly afterwards, I think that information was already in the queue somewhere else.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
This would’ve come through my people, probably I would’ve tasked that through to D/Comm. Mike Duheme. They would’ve gone to the -- especially the commanding officers in BC, Alberta, and Manitoba, where three of the big protests in our jurisdiction were, because they would have -- they were dealing with the protest, and we wanted to know what authorities might be useful if they did invoke the Act.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I was actually kind of surprised because in my mind I thought that we had, but obviously if he says that, then we probably didn’t.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, no, I’m ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And like I said, I didn’t -- if I did not, obviously, according to Comm. Carrique, consult with him, but I -- in my mind, I thought there was consultation done with OPP and OPS. Not at my level, because I wasn’t doing the consultation in my own organization; some other people were doing that. But I assumed, wrongly, obviously, that when I asked for consultation with the various agencies, that that was -- that they were included in that, unless we weren’t allowed to do that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I assumed this list was - - was the consultation of police. That’s -- honestly, I thought this list, where it came through my -- obviously my chain of command, but I assumed that that was part and parcel of consultation.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Unless there was reasons why they couldn’t, I’m not sure.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think the Deputy.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It depends. Like, Cabinet confidence is quite -- like, policing information is one thing, but -- because it’s our information, so I can say that I can share that. But when it’s not my information, I’m not at liberty to share.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, there’s probably ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I absolutely could have, except I might be breaching Cabinet confidence so I don’t know if I would have.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. And back then I called it the Emergency Measures Act. I didn’t even know what it was.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Oh.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
This is the first I’ve seen this information.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can’t refute it or accept it; I have no idea. I’ve never seen this information.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. I believe so, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Guns ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- out there.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There was a thousand things going on that we could’ve kept record of, absolutely. You can never -- I guess you can never over record, but it wasn’t kept.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I would agree it would be helpful.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Say that again?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. I agree, if I -- yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, it was the first of its kind.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, dated, but yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, or CIG. I can’t remember which one.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, his opinion on that, I had no opinion on that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I was agnostic.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t know what date this is referring to.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, the convoy hadn’t even arrived yet.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Oh, okay. In our events. Yeah. As it was crossing. Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Where is this?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
This is in Ottawa?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Because they’re not even in Ottawa yet.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Like, from what I understand is that January 28th, the convoy ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
In Ottawa?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That I don’t know. But if it’s ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I’ve never seen this document.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Again, I wasn’t intimate -- like I wasn’t into the details of the intelligence and maybe D/Commissioner Duheme would be better suited to answer that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that’s the information we received.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
We were not ever shared a plan, so I couldn't say if there was a plan or not.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Had a lot of difficult problems, but not this kind.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, not very well, but we had occasion to meet, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. I didn't intimately know, but I knew that it touched on some of that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I originally would say I can't imagine the pressure he was under, but I could, and he was under a lot of pressure to succeed.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I think that was the general consensus.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I -- I'm just thinking it through because I'm thinking from the beginning through the end of the convoy, depending on situations, but generally yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Again, I -- it depends on what part of the protest I look at because early on, depending on if there was a different plan, I don't -- I -- I'm just surmising. I just -- when you're asking me to say that, I don't know the makeup of the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, he requested resources.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wasn't privy to that. I know at the ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- beginning, the requests were coming directly to us, which was no issue, because that's how we operated. So it was no issue for those requests, but we don't have unlimited resources to keep providing resources unlimitedly.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I don't think anybody thought that at the beginning. It wasn't unusual that we gave resources, and it was anything we could do to help. It was a big event coming to the city, so we weren't thinking in terms of that. It wasn't until maybe the second week that we -- that I was even privy to the order of affairs under the Ontario Provincial Police Act.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, there was definitely discussions and to determine what did that mean. What did 1800 mean? I know there was a general overview in the letter, but we didn't know if it meant that, you know, 1200 were coming from Ontario, 600 -- we didn't know what that meant, so we had to get more clarity.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure who we sought the clarity. I know it was -- that's -- for us, to get the clarity was to look at the plan, what the plan showed ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- and what kind of resources they needed.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I did get briefed on the final plan ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- only because it was integrated ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- at that point. Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry, say that again?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, it wasn't really the federal government. It was the RCMP.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And earlier you asked me if it was a national security event. It was an event. It wasn't an event of national security.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, they never came out and said that to us.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, we were told there was an enforcement plan by the OPP.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, it's a completely different situation. This was 50 resources that we had within the province under the federal mandate. When we go outside the province and gather up 10 percent from each province, there's a lot of work that is done with that. There's a lot of requests that go with that. So when we're asked for -- when the number 1800 came up, that was when we said what kind of resources, how long do they need to be here. With the Windsor plan, OPP was in charge of all Public Order Teams, and they asked Windsor is a priority, can you move a Public Order Team from the RCMP there. So that was a -- it was a different dynamic.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, it wasn't a question of what -- how much time it took. It's just a question of what day do they need to arrive? How long do they need to be here? Because we have to backfill those positions where they are. We have agreements under a contract with the provincial entity, so we have to make sure we respect those agreements. We can only take, like I said, 10 percent, so what kind of resources, how long are they going to be gone, when is the plan going to start, when is the suspected end date, because we have to account for rotation of resources. And rotation, when you're dealing with planes and trains, or -- however, it's a lot of logistics. So it's not as easy as us taking one of our Public Order teams that's based out of Toronto, that was temporarily deployed to Ottawa, to go to Windsor. It's two different scenarios.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. I was given information from Ottawa Police, the deputies, not -- I didn't create this information. When we got briefed on the plan on the Friday night, about February 11th, we were -- I believe Deputy Commissioner Bell [sic] was there, and he said, "We need to brief the Chief on this plan, and he needs to approve it." I said, "Great." Off they went. The next day, somebody followed up with them and said, "Okay, is the plan approved?" "No, we haven't." I don't think they briefed him. They might have briefed him later on on the 12th. When we asked about it, I was told on the 13th that, we were asking why aren't we starting the plan, and he said, "Because the Chief has not signed off on the plan." And I said, "Well, when is that going to happen?" I actually reached into Chief Sloly and said, "Are you going to sign off on the plan?", and he told me, "I don't need to sign off on the plan."
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I was given erroneous information, obviously.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, and that information was from members of the Ottawa Police Service, not somebody from the RCMP.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't even know what that sentence means.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think some of it also had to do with tow trucks and making sure that there were no children in the area, and...
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think so. Not maybe in the exact way we said it, but yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, correct.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say yes. Those are complicated.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. We may have been consulted, our financial people may have been consulted on process-wise, but not -- I refer to Deputy Commissioner Duheme.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
But the Act wasn't seizing; right?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
The Act was freezing.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't know if that changes anything.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I'm not sure.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't know. I know for sure seizing, but I'm not sure about freezing.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think it was Kelly Bradshaw.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, the ministers that are relative to the incident, I would say.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. If I needed to speak, I could raise my hand or I could just simply walk over and talk to -- usually I was sitting next to the minister, so I could raise it through the minister.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was already brought through to Minister Mendicino through his chief of staff, and it was in my speaking notes, obviously, which I don’t believe now that I was able to speak to. But it was already brought forward, so ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It may have, but it was only -- even when I gave it to the chief of staff, it was only one portion of information amongst many information that they were dealing with in the invocation of the Emergency Act. And when I brought it forward the first time, it was mostly for them to have all of the information when they made their decision. And having already given it through -- given it to the minister, I felt that even though I didn’t get the opportunity at that meeting, it was already passed on.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And sometimes the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Intergovernmental also.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't know. I'd have to read the whole email to see. It might have been other things that I briefed them on. It might have not been that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
This is quite a lengthy ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can't pinpoint ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- if it was just that, sorry.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, because there's a ton of information in there and when I -- I've already used a few of the items, it could have been any of the many items in there. So I'm -- I'd have to refresh my memory.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh, okay. Sorry.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It depends on the circumstances in the protest, but yes, it is.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, that’s okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't know how they were deployed.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Some of them might have been all days and then in the initial instance, we didn’t get into that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, only because it was a specific ask and it was explained to us what they were going to be doing and what type of resource they needed. And a Public Order team is unique because it's the size of the Public Order team, so it's not -- we need ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
When we became integrated with the Integrated Planning Cell, so yes, it was integrated, so all of them participated.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Well, it wasn’t verification. We had a briefing. I wouldn't call it verification from my point of view. Maybe others like Deputy Commissioner Duheme, but for me, I was just briefed on the plan.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And I don’t think it was we wouldn’t; we couldn’t. We didn’t know what resources to call up.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
We did start increasing the resources because we knew it was coming.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
D/Comm. Duheme referred to we started bringing people in, but we didn’t get to that big number until we knew which day the -- we had to know which day the enforcement was going to start, because if you recall, on February 7th, I think it was, -- did you say February 7th was the request?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There was not even a start date in that plan, so we didn’t -- maybe the start date was February 13th, so maybe we did fulfil that request. Because I’m not even sure what the start date was ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- on the ask of -- if you’re asking for 1,800 resources on February 7th, my first question is, “When do you need them?” And if they said, “Right away,” well, I need to know what shifts, like I said.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that probably would have been more accurate.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, we were at the point - - it wasn’t specific to Chief Sloly. It was specific to we have this plan; we’re coming up to the weekend, we need to work on this plan. I was told that it wasn’t signed off. If we don’t get this -- we haven’t got the plan signed off. It’s time to move; it’s time to enforce. I can’t keep -- I can’t keep bringing resources in. I can’t keep going across the country to get resources. We need to move. And, literally, as I was speaking about that to OPP Comm. Tom Carrique, in another meeting Chief Sloly had resigned.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. They -- when they were first discussing the Emergency Act -- Emergency -- at that time I was calling it the Emergency Measures Act, ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- people were saying, “If they can’t do this enforcement, can it go to the RCMP?” Because, again, there was this misconception that, the RCMP being federal and national, that the next -- if they couldn’t do -- if they didn’t have the capacity to do it, would they bring somebody else in, and that’s when we were explaining to him that’s not how it works. We’re not here to -- we had no interest in taking it over. It wasn’t in our jurisdiction. The whole province, we have no jurisdiction. It’s not our job to do that. We will assist in any way we can to ensure that Chief Sloly and his crew succeed. And that was my main priority.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It appears so.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry; Jody Thomas representing ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Well, you’re saying that she was asked to -- sorry; just if you can repeat the question?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, these were my original speaking points that I would have passed on to Ms. Thomas.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
In -- like in detail the plan? No. What you see is what ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Which email? Is it the one regarding the exhausting the ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can't say for sure. Obviously, I wasn't speaking at that meeting. I would have to look at maybe inside these notes that you have up on the screen. If it's inside there, it may have been provided because these were given to the NSIA, but I can't -- I'd be trying to ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can add that there was nobody -- there was the briefing that -- of the existence of a plan, but nobody was briefed on the details of the plan.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
You know what? I do not have a recollection of that. I think I may have because it was inevitable on that I think I was briefed that it was in fact going to be invoked. And so I probably would have mentioned that, but I can't say for sure. I'm going back to my memory.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, what time was that meeting at?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
10 a.m. Yeah. It's very likely because I was meeting with both Carrique and -- Commissioner Carrique and Chief Sloly. It could in fact be true. Like, I can't refute it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely. We were talking about it in respect, especially, in the two provinces where we have no jurisdiction if there’d be a more streamlined process that would allow maybe all regular members to have that in advance if, in fact, they needed it or some form or process that would satisfy both the Police Act and ourselves.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, G20s, G7s. Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Ditto.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It would.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Good afternoon.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't see that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Page 3.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Maybe at the top of page 3.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh, is that what it is? Okay. So ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I know that there was talk about as soon as the -- the second the Emergency Act was invoked the next question was when we -- when they undo that. And so they would have no idea, obviously it would be probably on a law enforcement lead to say that okay, we've -- we don't need it anymore in cooperation with the people who put the Act in in the first place.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Because I was the contact for law enforcement, and so I'm imagining they're looking at is -- what date is this? The 21st? So the 21st would have been right around the time that that was when police operations were just finishing up and they were wondering if we needed any of the authorities to continue. So that's probably why they were asking.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, of Contract and Indigenous Policing.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not in the way that he's put it, no. There is a lot to unpack there, so I can't say I agree with everything that's being said.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, we were briefed on that plan on the 11th.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, I was the primary contact for the federal government.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, no, the question was whether I was -- I spoke at those meetings. I know I attended.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I usually did. And for -- I think because she would give an overview on those meetings and I would give an overview, and I think they just wanted to condense it, so they asked her to do it. And so she has -- she had normally given a bit of an overview, so I gave her my notes if she wanted to incorporate anything in that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s the IRG, I think.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Is not what?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It’s an update of the situation on the ground that is by law enforcement, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. As per previous documents revealed, I think it was in an email, it shows that I wasn’t going to be speaking and that the NSIA was going to.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, not at all, because the primary purpose of that day was all about the Emergencies Act, and I think that the fact that they had -- because normally I’m just giving a situational report on what’s happening from coast to coast. I’m not -- I wasn’t going to be talking about the Emergencies Act anyways. What I normally give is a SITREP. So maybe they were just in the economy of time.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wasn’t aware of that request for a threat assessment, so it wouldn’t have been attached to an Emergency Act specifically.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t do threat assessments.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So she would have been asked.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. And nor would I be, at my level.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can’t recall the time stamp.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay. Sure.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
You know what? I have no idea. So I’m ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
You sound like you’ve done your research, so I’ll your word for it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. In fact, if it was before the Cabinet meeting.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, but I think I’d have to correct myself. It wasn’t often. It was brought up a couple of times.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And nor do we have any jurisdiction in Ontario for that type of policing.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not necessarily, because anybody can enforce federal statutes. It’s not just a federal law enforcement. Provincial and municipal police services can also enforce federal statutes, like the CDSA, the Drugs and Substances Act, for example.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I think, in fact -- like for instance, anybody can enforce if you find somebody committing under the Criminal Code, so it doesn’t -- you don’t even have to be a police officer. But there is a jurisdiction where obviously, if they're -- police and public safety is involved and you are standing there, you need to -- you have to act on that. Any police officer has to act on that, but ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, including RCMP officers.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There were some, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, with injunctions though, usually there has to be an enforcement order attached to the injunction that we would allow police to enforce the injunction.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I don't know if there was any enforcement order attached to that.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure. I'm really -- I'm not a lawyer.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, you weren’t asking that. You were asking the RCMP in Ottawa, and it's not our jurisdiction, so I would have to refer to my legal people to ask that question, and we do that all the time when it comes to enforcement.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
But I'm not sure how the injunction was obtained, if it falls under the Criminal Code and if it's an actual court order that’s breachable. I'd have to do a little bit more research, so yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
But you are referring to the injunction and I don't know if an injunction falls under the disobeying or an order of the court.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
In all likelihood, yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
But we aren't the police of jurisdiction in Ottawa, and so it is -- I don't know if it's a common law or what authority it is. It would be like bringing Ottawa Police Service and then putting them in downtown Toronto and saying, "We're just going to start policing." Everybody -- there's a jurisdiction and there's a police of jurisdiction for a reason. And so if I find somebody committing a Criminal Code offence and I see them committing, and it's under the powers of arrest that I can, in fact, arrest, I can arrest. But for this -- for the purpose of this exercise, we would not simply walk in and decide that we were the police of jurisdiction.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Just, can you imagine the mayhem that that would lead to if every police just arrived and said, "We're going to be the police of jurisdiction today."
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, and we weren’t objecting to assisting in that regard, so I'm not -- that’s why I'm not understanding your questions.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure. Definitely not in the Ottawa area, as we weren’t the police of jurisdiction. They may have done that in BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. I'm not sure, and generally speaking, if there was, in fact, Indigenous involvement or if it was on Indigenous land, they would have, in fact. We have special liaison teams for that.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Each division has a different name, but they are divisional liaison teams or in BC, I think they're called the CCIG community, Consultative Indigenous Groups or something. CCIG, sorry, I ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- think it was actually in John Brewer's email. It's in there. Sorry.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Not completely intimately, but yes, I'm familiar with it.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm -- go ahead.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
If I --and my understanding might not be correct -- but if it involves -- if it's Indigenous protests, I believe that’s where it connects itself, so it might not be all protests, but I could be mistaken. I haven't intimately translated it into what it actually meant.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s a good question. I know that there’s been a lot of work developing liaison teams. When -- for example, in some of the Indigenous protests that we have gone to, we have included cultural awareness and specific cultural training to the area in which we’re policing so that we have a better understanding of the impacts of our actions. We have increased, obviously, our training in general in that regard. The -- our liaison teams are specific to protests on Indigenous lands, which can be different than non-Indigenous lands, for example, having a better understanding of the history and the culture.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
There was. We had John Domm ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- who was representing us. And we actually had Wally Oppal at the beginning but he got put on a different mandate. And we’ve had some vacancies and so we’re filling those vacancies. We don’t -- I’m not responsible. It’s Public Safety who’s responsible for filling those vacancies, but part of that is the diversity and including Indigenous representation.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It’s ongoing in our initiatives. We have an -- our contract in Indigenous policing. We have many projects on the go, many of which are geared towards reconciliation, but there is also making sure our policies and procedures align properly with UNDRIP and other recommendations that have come out of other reports.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, it’s not -- it’s not necessarily who. It’s how. I would say more how. Like, depending on -- I think you have to have an understanding of the issues, and that’s what we spend a lot of time on, understanding why the protests occurred in the first place, trying to connect with the organizers, trying -- it’s all about -- you know, we’re all about peaceful protests, which we definitely promote, and we do everything we can through our liaison teams to promote that peaceful protest. It’s only when it becomes an illegal blockade -- we can’t -- unfortunately, we -- you know, when injunctions are brought to court, we’re law enforcement; we can’t decide when we’re -- or what we’re going to enforce. We don’t have that discretion, but we do have the discretion on how and when we enforce. But there’s still the duty to enforce if there’s an injunction in court. But ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not sure I have an opinion on that in the sense that I think if somebody has an opinion or they are wanting to hear their voice in a certain ideologically way -- it doesn’t mean that it’s a negative thing when we say “ideologically motivated towards something”. Like I said, it’s about -- it doesn’t matter what the cause is, it’s just making sure it’s peaceful and making sure it’s following the rules that are set out in law.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think it would be up to the lawmakers to decide that. I think peaceful protest is absolutely necessary in a democratic society and I think people should have the right to have their voices heard. And, of course, because I’m in law enforcement, I’m probably a little bit bias in the sense that peaceful protest, we promote, but if it's not in line with the rule of the law, then we are asked to intervene.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’ve read bits and pieces but not cover to cover.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
As a result of the Ipperwash -- in regards to the Ipperwash Report?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
We are doing a lot of initiatives within the RCMP in regards to systemic racism. We’ve introduced some new courses that we’ve actually made available to all police agencies, Uniting Against Racism, Cultural Awareness and Humility courses, providing -- we’re updating our curriculums at our training academy. We also have the blanket exercise that is at our training academy, and that is available for all employees of the RCMP, and it’s all about -- and we’ve reviewed our whole recruiting process to make sure there’s no systemic barriers to prevent Indigenous people, but also the BIPOC community, into entering into the RCMP. In our recruiting, we’re trying to be more progressive in our proactive recruiters so that we would be able to have more Indigenous people in the RCMP because it’s more representative of the communities we serve and I think it would make our -- it would strengthen our organization to have more Indigenous people as police officers in the RCMP so we can connect with those communities. We do try to have people that -- of -- that are Indigenous to go to Indigenous communities that can assist us, but also, you know, we do have a higher-than-average percentage in the government for Indigenous employees but it’s not something -- it’s not very high in general. It’s at about seven percent. And I think we need to have -- I think if we had a greater diversity within our organization, it would bode well for working in Indigenous communities, working with Indigenous people on protecting their, you know, rights, and allowing them peaceful protest.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think we always have to progress as a police organisation and ensure that we are meeting the needs of the various people that we protect and serve.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
At Windsor?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I have no idea.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, there isn't. It would be posted either in London or Toronto and out from the major centre.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, as we've learned, obviously Ottawa City Police did that and we provided resources. Generally speaking, it's -- from police to police there's often requests, and where we are the police of jurisdiction. In Ontario, we're not -- we don't have that normal jurisdiction, so it's through the Ontario Police Act. But often in places like Alberta or Saskatchewan if there's something going on in a major city, like Regina, they may reach out to the RCMP to assist in a tactical response.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, I -- like I said, I've been told that normally it goes through the Ontario Provincial Police in Ontario where any municipality within Ontario, if they need additional resources, they go to the OPP. And they may not need to ask the RCMP because the OPP may find resources at a neighbouring detachment or municipal police agency within Ontario.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that's what the normal course of event is.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not when we're not the police of jurisdiction. But we can assist any police with the right process. But in -- for example, in Ontario and Quebec, if in fact Windsor, which is right on the border, if they needed assistance it wouldn't automatically default to the RCMP. We're not policing in that capacity in Ontario or Quebec.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't believe so.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay, you can scroll. Okay. Okay.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I believe so.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, this is the normal type of situational report I would give.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
He's the Chief of Staff to the Minister Mendocino.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Absolutely.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
National Security Advisor.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
To the Prime Minister.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I'm not sure if it was this -- it was another meeting, I think, or it might have been this one. I'm not sure which one.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
All right.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
All right. Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay. You're right. It was this meeting.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, it says, "Notably, the weapons that had been stolen in Peterborough have been recovered." Is that what you're ---
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm assuming.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Which one?
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Second set? "She also confirmed..."
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
"...that she has delegated some powers to other RCMP and OPP officers to be able to compel or commandeer equipment such as tow trucks, confirming that [the] RCMP will cover costs associated with this. RCMP will cash manage these pressures in the short term."
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't think so, but I may - - if I had, it would have been to the commanding officer of E Division, sorry, B.C., Alberta and Manitoba, but I don't think I -- I think there was plans to, but they never got -- they never needed them. So that might have been not exactly accurate. Yeah.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
This is the receipt for the various tow trucks that were used during the protest that -- after the -- as part of the authority under the Emergency Act.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
It's from the Province of Ontario.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think we're still cash managing. No, I'm just kidding.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, it's -- the federal government will cover the costs. They've asked us to pay for it and then cash manage it and if we need the money back, we'll get the money back.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Pay for the use of tow trucks in the protests, the commandeering of tow trucks and the use of those tow trucks to remove vehicles.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I was going to say, page 5 is pretty popular.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s based on one of the authorities in the Emergency Act.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well just with the Emergency Act, the authorities were not to go into a protest area. So they were advised not -- that they wouldn’t be allowed to go into Ottawa. So some of them went to Arnprior. There was a secondary, not a protest site, but a secondary site where trucks were getting together at another site. But that wasn’t -- there was no protest at that area.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Of course there’s always potential for lawful protest in and around Ottawa. That’s two examples. These people were lawfully protesting. They weren’t impeding the flow of traffic or the flow of pedestrian traffic. And so I believe that they were allowed to continue with their protests, and we monitor those protests. But it’s not just safety of people not in the protest, it’s also safety of the protestors. When they’re lawfully protesting, we want to make sure that they are safe when they’re doing that.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. I say it was part of a national event. It wasn’t a national security threat.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. We had -- like I said, I think I mentioned earlier, there was indication -- there was some snippets of information on open source that came through intelligence, things that were similar to the storming of the Parliament, but none of it manifested itself. So it wasn’t a national security threat. It was a national event.
-
Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No. And it definitely wouldn’t be me doing any of the assessments. I’m just the messenger. There’d be people a lot smarter than myself doing that.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, it's all about public safety and officer safety. So when you have thousands of people, that is not the time to do enforcement because the risk to public and police safety is at a much higher level. So even sometimes if there's a Criminal Code offence, sometimes you will deal with it after the fact because if you go inside that crowd to deal with it, you might inflare [sic] that crowd. And just police presence can be enough to inflare [sic] a crowd on the right time at the, you know, being at the -- being there at the wrong time. So what -- our tactics are usually to reduce a footprint through incentivising or motivating people to leave. Obviously, sometimes it's as simple as you will be arrested, but there's always going to be groups of protesters who will stay and will wish to be arrested. But so you can't -- you still have to get rid of that footprint, so obviously, in the Ottawa scenario, on the weekends, it was far too big. And so trickling off Monday and, you know, looking at past -- we looked at past weeks and our numbers were the lowest on I think it was Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, so that was the time to start doing the enforcement. Unfortunately, we lost some time in our plan, so we did a very, you know, quick engagement of two days with the crowds to say, "Now the Emergency Act is here. This is what will happen. If you don't leave, these are some of the consequences." There was many people who actually wanted to leave, but their trucks were kind of stuck in amongst trucks. And those people we tried to make arrangements when the time came to move those trucks, to get them off the site. And once the footprint was down to a -- the minimum numbers we felt we could get them down to, that's when we started our enforcement action. And that makes it a safer environment for everybody.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Allowing people the opportunity to leave and telling them the consequences of -- some of the consequences that would happen and some of the new authorities that we have under the Emergency Act. So, for instance, the financial authorities were one incentive. We had some of our police officers reporting that people were leaving because their spouse had called and said, "You need to get home, so we can get the account unfrozen." And so what motivated.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, because we can't predict how that enforcement action is going to go. We want to do it with the minimal amount of force. But if all of a sudden that turns and we would have to use more force or get into maybe using some kind of irritant, we don't want children there. We don't want anybody to get harmed. And children can't really defend themselves as adults can run and know a direction to go because we always provide an egress, but children aren't, you know, able to do that in all cases.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say the Emergency Act allowed us to have the safest type of enforcement. It allows us to reduce that footprint because there was large amounts of people there. And it not only allowed us to reduce the footprint, it allowed us to stop people from coming in. And we saw how every weekend those numbers grew tenfold. And it avoided people coming into the area, we obviously blocked off the areas as well. And it allowed for a much safer result. And I think Mike -- Deputy Commissioner Duheme said it himself the results speak for themselves.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And I would add, I don’t -- it’s not unusual for something to originate from outside the RCMP. And I would think that eventually, if this was something that was ongoing, there would be a point where we would probably pass it off. We would take it if it became national in scope. But I think it was because of the fact that things were going to converge on -- in Ontario, and they were dealing with various aspects of that. It originated, as Deputy Commissioner Duheme - - and I’m not intimately familiar with the report myself but ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Bigger.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, but we do have -- like, each province has a Criminal Intelligence Service that is integrated with all police agencies. So there’s CIS BC, CIS Alberta, and each one of those are integrated and they -- we have a centralized bureau, so all of it can go in that way. I think it was more sort of a -- like, almost like a taskforce of intelligence taken out to examine something specific because we have all kinds of mechanisms to feed that information and produce those types of reports nationally.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, and there’s another -- there’s another avenue for that because, under those criminal intelligence bureaus, there’s what we call a “National Executive Committee” that has representatives from each province. They meet once a year. They mandate the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada of what -- what they want to dig deeper into. They could actually be tasked with doing a whole report on protests, or doing, you know, the opioid crisis. They do various different reports on specific elements as per the recommendations of the National Executive Committee, which are all police officers from across the country.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
So RCMP from different provinces, they all participated, for the most part, and then there was Saskatoon City Police, Calgary City Police. All the major municipalities provided resources as well. But we do have an actual list if you ---
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I can’t speak to outside of the RCMP, but that’s exactly why we only draw 10 percent at any given time out of a province. Plus, to that 10 percent, we also have federal resources that are -- like Deputy Duheme explained, we have 5,000 across the country. We can draw on those resources. They aren’t first responders. They are on important tier 1 investigations, for example, but they’re not responders. And that’s why on the provincial side, under our Provincial and Municipal Services Agreement, we only can draw up to 10 percent, for that very reason, so that we’re not leaving some area vulnerable by taking too many from one area.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
And another example is I don't believe we took any resources from B.C. because you'll hear from Deputy Commissioner Zablocki he had invoked an Article 9 to take resources from B.C. for his situation in Coutts.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. But most big municipalities have their own Public Order Units, so -- and some of our bigger divisions have two or one of our divisions has two, we don't have anything in certain divisions. But I would say that the number of Public Order Units, I'm not sure how many they have in Ontario, but there was a big majority of the Public Order Units were here in Ottawa.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, we do have all the numbers that -- of the resources in here, but to say whether they've surpassed that threshold... And it's important to note that like -- so these people are not full-time, so we're actually taking from the frontline policing when we take some of the more federal resources, some of them, but for the most part they're uniformed police officers that are doing that as an additional duty.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, we stayed away from that. That was for them to decide if it was necessary, if they had the -- had met the threshold. That was for -- it's no different than any of the other legislations that we are providing input on. We provide, you know, the input on -- in regards to questions, same as cannabis legislation, the gun legislation, we provide the subject matter experts in that field, but we don't say whether it's absolutely needed or not. That's for the parliamentarians.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think -- now, obviously I have a view now. I think -- and we've talked about it, and I have a Chiefs of Police roundtable, and we've talked about should we be looking at some of these authorities and looking at if there is some regulations that could be put into place add to these -- to give us additional authorities. And like I said, it's not for the people who are illegally protesting, it's for the ones that refuse to leave and blocking roads and downtowns and disabling vehicles and not wanting to leave. That's what the legislation or regulations, however you put it, would be helpful. Because the only motivation we have for people to leave the area is to arrest, which means -- then -- often that means we have to resort to some level of enforcement which could lead to an intervention, which again, now we're using some level of force for arrest, which is not where we want to go when people are refusing to leave. Because a lot of these people are very true to their cause and it -- we don't want to have to be forced to use that type of intervention. So if there is things that may motivate people to leave that do not involve the police that's something that, you know, should be considered.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think one of the ones that was mentioned is the facilitating and ease of, you know, of swearing in of members for many who are in Canada, you know, providing some type of recommendation that would ease that. I don't know why that would be something that we need to do as in providing an impediment. It's not like somebody's going to come into a province and start enforcing laws. It's when we have additional requests for assistance. There is one -- looking at the authorities that were in the Emergencies Act, and nobody is -- you know, nobody wants to infringe of anybody's Charter of Rights, but when people aren't following the laws this is where, like I said, we don't want to be having to use force to deal with that. We don't pick and choose what we enforce, we just -- that's the unfortunate position that we're in. And I think more and more people are going to want to let their voices be heard, and I wouldn't want this to be, you know, increasing exponentially so that the police are dealing with this. And you know, that 24 days that that lasted that was a huge drain on all resources in policing, and also it undermines policing who are trying to, you know, keep things as peaceful as possible. But you know, we talk about it. If we went in too early what would be the circumstance? What would people -- what would be the commentary if we came in too early and did quick enforcement? We'd probably be criticized for that, criticized for late enforcement. So how do we deal with this and not letting it last for 24 days because I don't think it's acceptable in anybody's books that that went on for as long as it did. But it was a difficult situation, and I have said this before I can't imagine the pressure that Chief Sloly was under during those days, and it's not an easy thing to reconcile.
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Brenda Lucki, Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you.