Brian Clow
Brian Clow spoke 153 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I will affirm.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
First name, Brian B-r-i-a-n, last name Clow, C-l-o-w.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I am one of two Deputy Chiefs of Staff, as Katie laid out, and I oversee five teams in the office. One is the Policy Team, which John described; second is the Communications Team, it's the largest of the five. They do exactly what their name says, press releases, all government communications and media relations for sure. Quite a range of activities in that department. There is -- third, is the Issues Management and Parliamentary Affairs Team. That's one unit. So everything that goes through Parliament, whether it's legislation, votes in the House, debates in the House, the PMO Parliamentary Affairs Team engages in that space. But they also focus on Issues Management, which I like to think of it as the government has its proactive agenda, which is largely driven out of the Policy Team, and then the Issues Management Team deals with day-to-day developments, whatever comes at us. So certainly the Issues Management Team was involved in what's being studied here quite early on. And then there are two more units that I oversee, they're smaller units. One is the Global Affairs Team. They focus on all -- any number of international files. And finally, there's a unit that was created a couple of years ago to deal with the response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So the week of January 17th, there were a few interactions. On Monday, January 17th, there was a report sent from PCO to PMO. I think one or two people in the Prime Minister's Office -- it might have actually come from a Minister's office as a flag that there were some slow roll activity in Emerson, Manitoba. At that point though, that information was not shared beyond that. It was just one of any number of issues. As the week went on though, we started to hear more and see more reports of the convoy protest. On Thursday, January 20th, there was an email that came from PCO to a number of people in PMO that laid out -- it was an update on the convoy protest. I think it was focussed on -- it named three places specifically: Coutts, North Portal, Saskatchewan, and Ottawa. And the update also included a press release from the Canadian Trucking Alliance, which condemned the convoy activity, specifically proposed unlawful activity, which even at that point, there -- what was coming out of a number of the speakers was proposed unlawful activity and road blockages specifically. So it was that week January 17th when we started to hear about this. That weekend, I'd say 22nd, 23rd, by then, it was on everybody's radar. The week of the 24th is when the Prime Minister started to get updated daily on it.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So the -- in addition to -- I'll look at this email. So there was email traffic and there would have been phone calls the week of the 17th between PCO and PMO. But Tuesday the 25th, I do believe was the first meeting scheduled with PCO and PMO staff to go through all of the elements as were known at that point.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So he works in PCO and he's part of the National Security team.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I wasn't a part of this specific brief, but received this email. And so I have no reason to believe it doesn't represent what was discussed there. But I would say it's only a piece of the picture of what we were watching at that time. There's a reference in there to social media chatter and disturbing comments. And by this point, it was a very significant issue and getting a lot of coverage in media, some of those comments. This email was sent on January 25th, which is the same day it was reported in media that some individuals who were planning to participate in the demonstration were saying they wanted this to be their January 6th. That's why you see -- I suspect you see this in this email summary because there were individuals explicitly referencing January 6th. And at this point as well, it was known in public that some people planning to participate in the demonstration had a proposal to replace the government by going to the Governor General and the Senate. It's otherwise known as the MOU.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think they're -- at that point, there was a lot of conversation going on about what we were seeing and what we thought this was going to be, and there were a number of updates coming through, like the one you see here, but we were also seeing a lot in open source and through the media, which was very concerning. I already mentioned the reference to January 6th. So that's what I think this speaks to.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So we watched the convoy arrive, not only in Ottawa, but there was activity in Coutts, very serious activity that first weekend. Emerson we're starting to see some blockages there. It's down to one lane and would open up again, some trucks would move, but there was activity in Emerson. So this was already a national issue in the first week. And we were -- we continued to see very concerning statements from some demonstrators, including from demonstrators and organizers that they were not going to leave until the government changed its policy. But in that first weekend, law enforcement was responsible -- local law enforcement I should say, and by the end of the weekend, it was clear they weren't leaving, so I would say concern had increased at the end of the weekend. So we in the Prime Minister's Office, with PCO, with Minister's offices, with caucus, with others, we were hearing a lot of concern and we were discussing internally and getting updates and sharing information with each other as best we could. Before this meeting on the 3rd, which was well into the second week, there had been a briefing of the Prime Minister by the National Security Advisor and the Clerk, so there were discussions happening. What happened on February 3rd and what these notes reflect is this was a Thursday. The second weekend was approaching, and law enforcement had not been able to contain the various protest. And, in fact, in my view, they were getting worse. So we assembled and basically covered the waterfront, what's going on, who's talking to who, what can we be doing more of, what are different provinces and municipalities asking, are different provinces and municipalities asking questions? And if they aren’t asking for support -- if they aren’t, can we have a conversation with them to see if they should be asking for support? So in these notes, you’ll see us cover quite a few different ideas.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
That’s Jeremy Braodhurst.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
“Weekend reinforcements problem”.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So that was separate from the meeting we just covered. That was a phone call from Ottawa Centre MP, Yasir Naqvi. He called me and I wrote down what he told me.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The same day.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Absolutely. And this was on February 3rd so, by this point, the Ottawa convoy had been here for a full week, a full seven days, and Ottawa residents had experienced a lot, and I think you see that reflected in Mr. Naqvi’s comments.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I believe that was a reference to either the day before or earlier that week, Chief Sloly said there was no policing solution.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It definitely added to the concern of what we were seeing. And to hear Ottawa Police say that this was not a policing solution was very concerning and it told us that this was not going to end anytime soon.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Sam Khalil is the Director of Issues Management.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
And there were probably a few other people on that call, not many more. I’m confident Katie was on that call.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So, one, to situate this conversation, this was Sunday, February 6th in the evening, so the end of the second weekend. The Prime Minister was updated, just as he was updated the previous Sunday, because a second weekend had passed and Ottawa had worsened and other situations were becoming more difficult as well. And I note, the NSIA reported that: "Eleven (11) BC communities have protests, 35 across the country." So I can’t tell from the notes if that comment was Jody Thomas’ comment, the one you asked about, but it looks like it was part of a list of updates from Jody Thomas.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
There were multiple conversations happening daily at this point, and there were interactions with the Prime Minister every day at this point, in some way or another, but this specific construct of a meeting with the Clerk, National Security Intelligence Advisor, and staff didn’t happen every day but it happened with increasing frequency.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
“Gyms, vaccines, all provincial”.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So the RAF came in the day before that, and it immediately spurred a number of conversations with different offices; Ministers were consulted, and the Prime Minister was consulted on a few different occasions about this. And, yes, there was a general sense that CAF should be last resort. But also in this specific case, I think you’ve heard from other witnesses as well, but at the time, the discussion was that this was not -- this was not an appropriate, or even useful, response to what the problem was. And what I mean by that was, were these trucks actually going to be able to do the job? That was all part of that discussion that ensued after the request came in on the 5th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes. So I heard from Juan Gonzales. He is part of the national security team in the White House, and we’d interacted on a few files before the convoy protests. And he reached out, I believe on Wednesday, February 9th. At that point it was a request to connect National Security Intelligence Advisor Jody Thomas with the White House Homeland Security Advisor, to urgently discuss the Windsor blockade, but also other border blockades that were in effect at that time. So Juan and I had a bit of back and forth about that. That, then, led to a number of conversations, some of which you heard about this morning from the Deputy Prime Minister. But there were various interactions between the Prime Minister’s Office, PCO, several Ministers’ offices, and their counterparts in the United States, in the White House and different departments in the United States because they became seized with the border blockades that were impacting them quite significantly.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Absolutely. And the concern was not only about trade, economics, dollars and cents; it was for sure but there was also a discussion in many of these conversations, including between the Prime Minister and the President, that both countries were facing similar forces in certain ways. For example, the United States also saw some convoy activity, I think it was dealt with quite quickly by the Americans but they saw a trucker protest heading to the Superbowl. There was one that was trying to be assembled to head to Washington, C.C. So these were a part of the conversations as well. It was viewed as a shared problem. But for sure, the immediate issue was the blockades at various border crossings, especially Windsor, and how do we sort these out quickly.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Well, she was one of the key principals having interactions with the White House and various departments in the United States. And the substance -- you know, one example of substance within those conversations was how can we introduce measures to end the blockades, or at least dissuade them from growing and from new ones from popping up. For example, there was discussion of potential immigration measures or penalties placed on people who conducted unlawful activity at these border blockades. There was definitely discussion of whether the United States could provide tow trucks to help, given it was virtually impossible to get tow trucks on the Canadian side of the border. So that's the kind of thing that was discussed.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I don't know -- so the immigration measures, I don't believe the United States implemented any measures. We did in the Emergencies Act. In terms of tow trucks being provided by the United States, there might have been some in Detroit-Windsor, provided by Detroit or the government of Michigan. I'm not sure about that.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I would just add as well, another feature of all of the conversations between the Americans and us, including the call between the Prime Minister and the President, was the fact that a lot of the support for the unlawful activity here in Canada was coming from the United States in terms of money, in terms of people, and in terms of political support, from some of the most prominent U.S. political figures. Millions of dollars came in from the United States, according to published reports. Chief Sloly announced that there were American citizens who had travelled to join the occupation in Ottawa. So that was also a feature of the discussions here. The flooding of 9-1-1 phone lines here in Ottawa came largely from Americans, as announced by Chief Sloly, and the Ottawa Police. So this was very much a shared problem and we were talking about it in that sense.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It definitely became more apparent as time passed, and I totally agree with you, it is cloudy and unclear and it's concerning that it happened. But one example I would give, I mean, we felt quite strongly at the time that it was happening, and proof of that I would say is when GoFundMe paused the account, you saw some of the most prominent American political figures attack GoFundMe. And they didn't do that out -- for no reason. They did it because it was clear to them, and it was clear to us, that a lot of the funding was coming from Americans.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The issue there, there were a number of examples from senators, from governors, from the former President, and the issue there is not that individuals and politicians aren't allowed to comment on politics and policies in other countries. It happens all the time. But the concern for us was it was direct encouragement for unlawful activity that was hugely damaging to the country, including the border blockades. So that's why I raise it here and that's why the President and the Prime Minister spoke about it. It was the support for unlawful activity.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think I saw it ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
--- a few pages up. Yeah.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Just a little bit further up. A little bit further. So I think you see ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I believe it was February 9th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
This is various things happening over the course of the day.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I wouldn't call this one meeting.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So February 9th was -- there were a few conversations going on. I don't specifically remember what meetings at what times. But I did write down and it was reported to us that Minister Blair had spoken to the Clerk about the Emergencies Act, and that was in the leadup I think just one day before the Incident Response Group meeting where the Emergencies Act was discussed in some detail, in addition to other things. So this was just a report to us that that conversation had happened between the Minister and the Clerk.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I see this as discussions are happening about how we can help, what more we can be doing. And the Emergencies Act could be a piece of that.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think it’s been well covered. I would just emphasize -- I know it’s been addressed here and elsewhere in the past couple of weeks, but Premier Kenney’s comment on this phone call that there was a potentially violent, hard-core group of individuals at the centre of the Coutts blockade who were ready to die for a cause, we had heard through other reports and from our own officials, but it was a recognition that’s just one example of the very serious potential for violence that was posed by many of these demonstrations.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So there was an emergency debate about the convoy and the demonstrations about a week -- about a -- I think exactly a week before the invocation of the Emergencies Act. The Emergencies Act itself contains parliamentary process and provisions of that debate, and the vote in the House did happen. But the decision to invoke on February 14th was made after a series of discussions and inputs, the FMM that morning being a critical one -- the opposition leader called “the critical one”. The view was time was up and it needed to be enacted right away. And recognizing that the parliamentary process is built into the Act and was to come in the days ahead, we thought that that was robust.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It's hard to say for sure what that specific note refers to, but there was progress by that point, the February 19th. We were far from out of it. There were still a lot of situations, there were still many threads. And if I remember correctly, Ottawa was -- there may have been the beginning of action, but it wasn't done. So definitely at the IRGs and on staff calls and in other conversations we were beginning to ask ourselves, "Okay, what -- how long is this needed?" And it was always understood, and it was made clear by the Prime Minister this should only be in place as long as it's needed. So we were constantly asking ourselves that very question, "What are -- what do we need to assess and what will feed into the decision to revoke?"
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
My colleagues may have stuff to add, but I don't know if it was conveyed on the 20th, but that was definitely a message right up to the revocation, that the RCMP believed that the powers were critical, and they argued that they should stay in place for a period longer in order to prevent additional blockade from starting or from people from returning to the ones that existed.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Important to point out is that both for the invocation and the revocation the RCMP was one of many inputs. So for sure this view would have been considered and was considered, but ultimately the Prime Minister and the IRG decided to revoke when they decided to revoke based on what -- many different inputs.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So quite the opposite, actually. And yes, I am aware of that suggestion, that perhaps there was an attempt to revoke before the Senate got to its vote. We actually wanted the Senate to move as quickly as possible, and I think it did too, but as it was reported to us, the Senate was delayed in convening partly because of the Ottawa, very significant continuing Ottawa demonstrations that were happening right on the Senate's doorstep. They did begin their debate at a certain point, but that was not considered when it came to revocation. Decisions around revocation was "What's the situation? Is this Act still needed? Are these powers still needed?" We would have liked the Senate to have its vote, but I will also say I have no reason to be believe that the Senate would not have endorsed it, and I do believe that -- I'm not sure about this, but I do believe that this Commission has seen evidence that the Chief of Staff to Senator Gold, the Government leader in the Senate, was doing vote-counting and they were quite comfortable that they were in a good place.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think we're good.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I would just add that we heard various points in the weeks leading up to invocation of the Act that action was about to be taken in some of the places that you've mentioned. And on the point about RCMP stating that not all tools had been exhausted, that was obvious to everyone. In various locations, law enforcement had tools that they weren't able to enforce because there were other more serious issues preventing that, and that's partly why decision was made to invoke the Act the next day.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
As I said, that was obvious to everyone who was watching what was going on, on the ground.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, he was. This was the February 10th Incident Response Group meeting.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
To be honest, I can't read it either. The quality of the photocopy is not strong.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
"...as a hook for the national stuff." So this was a reference to there -- we knew and we heard on the FMM call that some Premiers and some people felt that the Act should not be provided -- applied nationally. And this comment referred to needing to underscore in the communications that part of the reason the Act needed to apply nationally was so that it would apply to financial transactions across the country, given many of the demonstrators were from across the country.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So this was February 14th, 12:30 p.m., after the FMM as preparations were underway for a potential Prime Ministerial announcement later that afternoon. Prime Minister took the decision to invoke the Act later that afternoon and he went out and announced it.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I can't confirm the timing of the ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
--- email, but it could be.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So what I would say is, at this point, there were numerous statements being made by the Prime Minister and other Ministers to media, sometimes in the form of a press conference. My recollection was this was planning for a statement of some sort, and, yes, given the Emergencies Act was under consideration, it was a scenario at that time that they could be making announcements about the Emergencies Act the next day, but the decision had not been taken at that point.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
There could have been any number of measures taken and that's -- that was the examination going on exactly at that time, what tools could exist, is it going to be enough. Decision was Emergencies Act had the tools required, and that's why that decision was taken the next day.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The DPMO? No. The Prime Minister's Office and PCO prepared speeches for the Prime Minister.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, absolutely.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I'm not aware.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
She’s one of several Issues Advisors, but she holds the file for Public Safety.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I will say, in those updates that were coming from Mary-Liz Power, and they were more than once daily, by the end of the week. There were some references that I do believe this Commission has seen in those emails, and I think it was attributed to OP-INTERSECT that this could be a prolonged demonstration. But you are right, there was a lot of uncertainty about what was coming.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I agree. This was a challenging situation for everyone.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
No.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think it's a fair statement, but there are some things said on social media that represent clearly the views of the person expressing it. And in this case, in this demonstration, there were statements made on social media about threats of violence, threats to individuals, and themes and motives that they had ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, it’s February 10th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes. So that morning -- so this is February 10th. There were a series of meetings that led up to the Incident Response Group that happened later that day. So right before this note, a meeting -- a discussion happened between the Prime Minister and several ministers, including Minister Mendicino, Minister Blair, where he was updated and it went around the table, full discussion of the current situation. This discussion was a debrief of the Prime Minister and a few of us staff members coming out of that meeting, so you see some next steps. And I believe the comment about intel was a reflection that we were absolutely getting a lot of information, particularly from the National Security Intelligence Advisor, but there was an interest in more of it. And there was still an incomplete picture when you looked at the various blockades and demonstrations across the country and what was behind it, and what was going into it, and where was it going.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Right.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Right.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
No, the concern was, do they have the tools or is there more that could be done by the federal government, provinces, municipalities? Could we support them more? That was the discussion and concern.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The government, the Cabinet, the Prime Minister wanted the unlawful activity and the threats to stop, and the Emergencies Act and the measures in it was the best assessment of what could be provided as additional tools to help the unlawful activity stop.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
And, sorry, what date was this from?
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
February 3rd. So that was the first meeting of that Cabinet Committee. My assessment of this document is that it's a Public Service document, which is fairly normal for these discussions to fuel a discussion. I would say on that -- I can't speak to what was discussed or whether that was addressed in the meeting, but I would say in February there was a very specific, urgent need, and my view is that that would not have been appropriate to address that urgent national challenge that we were facing right in that moment.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
There were constantly discussions like that. Is there something we could say, something we could do? Just like there were lots of discussions about the engagement proposals. But the wall we would always hit is the assessment was, given the demands of the convoy, which was to drop all the mandates, we weren't going to get very far with this kind of suggestion.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Time, taking time now, then it says he'll depart from the Hill to head to West Block.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So this was a staff debrief following the FMM on that day, ahead of the Prime Minister's conversations with the opposition leaders. So, at this time, the consideration was considering -- continuing around the Emergencies Act. So this was a quick discussion of staff of things we should be considering or doing coming out of the FMM, given the Premier of Quebec communicated so clearly that he didn't want the Act applied in Quebec. That's what that discussion reflects. It was a very brief staff discussion.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The Act ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Right. The Act did apply there.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
The phone call was February 11th, yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Phone call was February 11th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Could I see the signatories?
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So in general, when correspondence comes in, especially at this moment on this issue given the Emergency Act was in place February 16th, letters get to him sometimes through a normal course. That may take some time. Other times, letters are elevated more urgently.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I can't recall if this got to the Prime Minister, but I would say the views expressed are -- match the views that we heard from a lot of people, but government did not agree with that.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
This specifically? I can't speak to that. I don't know if it was brought to his attention.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I don't believe this document would. This looks like an internal document at the Department of Trade. But Prime Minister -- we were all well aware that these views were being expressed by a certain segment in U.S. politics.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
We had heard at various points in the lead up to the invocation that there were plans or actions was about to be taken in various situations, including Ottawa. Absolutely that was part of the discussion and consideration, the fact that action had not been taken up until that point, and the assessment was that was because law enforcement did not have the tools they needed.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It’s hard to comment because we don’t have the document. We don’t -- I don’t know what you’re referring to.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Sorry, I can’t speak to that specific, but Cabinet was definitely aware that on February 13th, when they were discussing, the situation in Ottawa was worse than it had been at any point and the threats of violence, the actual violence, was terrifying. That’s what was discussed at Cabinet.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Absolutely I understand that.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
When I said “City” there, I believe I would have meant the city wholistically. So all of -- the sum of its parts. Clearly the situation in Ottawa was out of control, and that’s what I was referring to.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Which reports into the City of Ottawa. I mean, all of this is -- the different levels are relevant here.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So I’ve answered the question. My comment was that the City of Ottawa was out of control, especially in the downtown.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I’m not speaking to -- I wasn’t here, or am I now, speaking to specifics of the arrangement within the City of Ottawa.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I don’t have any evidence to that effect, and I stand by what appears here.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
That’s right, for a demonstration, staff had been advised to work from home during COVID pandemic at different periods, but for a demonstration, as far as we can recall, we've never had to send a notice like that saying, "Stay away".
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes. That’s from Mike Jones to me.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I do, yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I would assume so.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So first thing I'll say is these updates came. There was a lot happening. There were a lot of conversations going on, so I -- you'll note I didn’t even have a chance to reply to this or I didn’t reply to it, but I would have received the update. My recollection is that did not happen, what is proposed here, and I don’t want to read too much into the specifics of what is written here. But absolutely, as Katie said, we were always incredibly careful and aware that politicians don’t direct the police.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Both. This was discussed and mentioned on various occasions throughout the convoy protest.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It was because this -- clearly, policing was a central part of this, and a lot of us are aware of issues from the past. Everyone here is aware of Ipperwash, for example. So we were highly sensitive right out of the gate that politicians do not instruct the police.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I have no knowledge of that.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
But I don't believe that happened, no.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
If what is written here is a faithful and accurate description of what it appears earlier, I do agree direction should not be given to the police by politicians.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I have no reason to believe that, but I can't and shouldn't speak to that. And I do actually believe this text message was put to Minister Mendicino this week, but that really would be a question for him.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think that's a fair assessment of that comment.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, it does.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
There definitely appeared to be some confusion over several days about the numbers.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I believe he said that, yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It could be, but I don't know that. This was an update from the NSIA to the Prime Minister that Sunday evening on February 6th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Counterprotest.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I’m not sure what that final line refers to ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
--- but this looks like a discussion of an update we received. This was February 10th at the IRG that Windsor action was anticipated the very next day.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Are you specifically asking “others still in the machine”?
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I think it was at some point between receipt ---
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
--- and when the Prime Minister made the announcement.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
M’hm.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Well, a couple of comments. One, he did read the note. Two, the start time of the press conference, it may be a bit absurd to dig in on the minutes, but the minutes are important here. I don’t know that it started precisely at 4:30. I think there might have been some delay there, but after it was received, the Prime Minister did review the note, signed the note, made the announcement. And that signing of the note was -- came after the FFM, came after the opposition-leader consultation, and that was the Prime Minister making the decision there before he announced it.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I believe it went out earlier that afternoon around or shortly after one o’clock. And the decision at that point to issue the itinerary was to notify media that the prime minister would have something to say. And it is absolutely possible that the prime minister could have decided not to proceed down this path before he addressed the media that afternoon. And it happens not infrequently on an issue that scenarios are planned, a track -- we may be on a certain track but a decision -- a different decision is taken at a certain point even at the last minute. So no, the decision was not taken until shortly before it was announced to media.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
If a decision was taken not to invoke the Emergency Act on that day, the remarks and announcement would have been changed.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I’m not sure if there was.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Well, my point is, even if there wasn’t a draft, this can be done quite quickly in order to redraft materials. And it has happened before in different issues.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I believe we did speak at one point.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I can’t remember the precise date. But the first exchange -- there was an email exchange and a text exchange with him on the 9th and the interactions continued until about the 15th and 16th.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I would just add what this illustrates is an example of something we heard from officials in the lead-up to February 14th and the invocation, which was yes, there was some progress in certain places and certain blockades, but the progress was done with the help of additional resources in certain cases. So in BC, for example, it was definitely concerning that Alberta was clear but BC -- not concerning; it’s good that Alberta progress was made with additional resources, but BC was facing its own problems: There were arrests at the Pacific Highway, there was a military-style vehicle there when the convoy activity happened in BC. So part of the concern across the country was, was there enough resources across the board to handle all of the pop-ups that were happening, and we were seeing in increasing numbers that weekend.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, he’s part of a Issues Management Parliamentary Affairs Team, with a focus on Parliament.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Yes, that’s Rheal Lewis. He’s the Chief of Staff to the Government House Leader.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
That looks correct.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
So this whole page, reviewing it, this does look like it’s well after, it could be a full week after invocation of the Act. Clearly they’re talking about the Parliamentary process so the first part, “Rheal Lewis is saying he’s: “confident will win the votes. Need to do more in [the] Senate...” So I addressed that in an earlier question, that I know of no reason to believe the Senate was not going to endorse that. And as I said earlier, the Chief of Staff to the Government Leader in the Senate was doing vote counting, and I believe that evidence was presented here, and they were quite confident they would win that vote. The rest of the page looks like more Parliamentary process and an individual Caucus member.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
Nate Erskine-Smith.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
It’s hard to say. I don’t know what this refers to but there was a public discussion going on about this very fact, as there is in this commission, but I don’t know specifically what this refers to in this note.
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Brian Clow, Deputy Chief of Staff (GC-PMO)
I would absolutely agree with that. I don’t know that I have much to add, other than as has been covered at some length here today and at this Commission, especially in those days leading up to the invocation from the IRG, and even before that, the steps that were taken were careful, considered, and there were a number of conversations involving a number of senior officials and Ministers ultimately leading to the Cabinet meeting on the Sunday night. So to me, it was very methodical.