Ian Freeman
Ian Freeman spoke 474 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Ian Freeman; I-a-n, F-r-e-e-m-a- n.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m good, thank you.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I do.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I have.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There is one change I’d like to make.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s towards the end. There’s a reference to tow trucks that were supplied or coordinated to -- I believe I says we supplied 10 to the City of Ottawa.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Or, sorry; 10 to the City ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Very close to the end. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
And then keep going. Keep going. Yes. So it says here in this paragraph that’s at the bottom of the page: “Mr. Freeman’s understanding is that MTO sourced some heavy tow trucks for Ottawa, and up to 10 tow trucks for Windsor.” (As read) It’s actually 10 for Ottawa. For Windsor we provided a name, a contact name for a tow truck to the OPP, but I don’t believe they used that tow truck operator.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Currently, I’m the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Corporate Services Division at the Ministry of Transportation, which is also the Chief Administrative Officer.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s correct. At the time I was the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Policy and Planning Division at MTO.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. So as Assistant Deputy Minister in Policy and Planning, I was responsible for developing long-term transportation plans, developing transportation policies. We had a unit that was responsible for intergovernmental relations, as well as other policy coordination-type activities.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, MTO’s mandate is to provide safety for the transportation network to do operating of the provincial highway system, to provide long-term transportation planning for Ontario’s transportation system, ad, you know, other safety and operational activities related to the transportation system.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I report to the Deputy Minister of Transportation.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was Deputy Minister Laurie Leblanc at the start. About halfway through the protest period, in mid-February, we had a new -- the Deputy Minister retired, and we had a new Deputy Minister, Doug Jones. There was a very brief period where an associate took over for a few days.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There are six other Assistant Deputy Ministers.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not daily but regular. Probably weekly, sometimes less or more, depending on, you know, the circumstance and what’s happening.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
During the events, we were -- we had occasional briefings with her to give her updates on what was happening operationally and the support that the Ministry was providing, as well as discussions on what else could the Ministry do from a -- you know, a regulatory or policy perspective.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that the Minister had a direct role in responding to the events. The government’s response of -- Government of Ontario’s response was being coordinated through the Solicitor -- Ministry of the Solicitor General. So she would have certainly had a role in terms of the mandate that I spoke to at the beginning, that she would exercise that, but I don’t think she had a specific role in regards to these protests.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The main Act would be the Highway Traffic Act. There’s -- I think there’s quite a few other Acts that we also enforce or have responsibility for, but our key Act is the Highway Traffic Act.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct. I don’t know if our enforcement officers enforce all aspects of the Highway Traffic Act. I think there’s certain elements of that that they do, among -- among other legislation as well.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I wouldn't be part of that distribution list.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. No, this would be -- so this is our enforcement branch that this is being referred to, so our Transportation Enforcement Branch. I wouldn't have any dealings with them that ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- or for this issue at this time.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That would have been the ADM of our Transportation Safety Division, which was Shelley Unterlander.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding is the Transportation Safety Division developed an operational plan, which would be normal course of action for them to do, which would speak to what the officers -- you know, who -- like, what's the flow of information, what their anticipated role might be, kind of rules of engagements for officers. I would also imagine, although I don't have direct knowledge of it, that our Operations Division would also connect with police through likely the OPP to see if there was any sort of information that might be needed from Highway Operation, so, for example, changeable message signs, any support that might be needed for police. But I don't have specific knowledge as to what activities they took at this time.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
But those would typically be the types of actions that would happen for an event such as this.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, this would be it.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, from my review of the document previously, they were expecting a peaceful protest. So and they would not be directly engaging with the protest, but that they would, you know, be available if police needed assistance with any sort of expertise around commercial truck inspections and those types of -- that type of work.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I do.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding was there wasn't any direct support that was needed. The officers were patrolling the GTA highways to be visible, but they weren't directly engaging in the protest activities.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's my understanding.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't -- I'm not aware of a request for that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There's approximately 150.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It can be done. It's not typical. Typical, they will operate out of specific regions and locations, but if needed, they can be.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's my understanding is that officers were redeployed to Ottawa at the request of the OPP, you know, towards the back end of the protest.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The one that's showing here is my summary of the February 5th call.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm not sure if further down it summarises the 4th.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Transport Canada was interested in understanding if police laid charges, or even if there was the threat of laying charges, what would be the impact to commercial vehicle operators in Ottawa who were protesting. And just to be clear, CVOR stands for commercial vehicle operator registration. It's the licensing regime for commercial vehicle operators in Ontario. So they were interested in understanding, you know, what type of highway traffic offences, as an example, that might lead to sanctioning of a carrier.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well there’s -- I mean, there’s all sorts of offences. There’s a long list of offences that can lead to point. It could be mechanical fitness, it could be, for example, even stopping on a roadway. Any number of driving offences could lead to CVOR points. So there’s -- you know, quite a few of the Highway Traffic Act offences would lead to CVOR points.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Transport Canada raised that -- I can’t remember if it was New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, but one of the Atlantic provinces had -- I don’t know if it was under emergency orders or what, but they had legislation in place that where there was similar situations that were impacting critical infrastructure, so not related to safety, but related to, you know, protests or civil unrest, that there were substantial financial penalties included in their legislation. So we were - - Transport Canada was interested if anything existed in Ontario. And I wasn’t aware of anything, and I don’t believe we found anything that existed in Ontario that would be helpful.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, I think simply put, Transport Canada was just wanting to know, should police need heavy tow trucks, would MTO be -- have direct contracts with tow operators that would be able to be deployed in the City of Ottawa? And so my comment there was that I didn’t believe that we did have contracts with tow operators that would be applicable inside municipalities. But I was asking the question for them to find out.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did not.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, there’s several documents, I think, in the record that speak to questions around this. So maybe if I could just try and explain the CVOR?
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
How it works? And I think the Deputy speaks to it a little bit here. But the way that the CVOR regulation works is it’s a -- it’s a process by which there’s escalating penalties and by which a safety record is built over time that allows the Deputy Registrar to take action. So what I mean by that is based on an operator’s safety record, so based on, you know, the inspections that they have, the convictions that they have, or on road events, so collisions, they accumulate points. And as they accumulate points on their record, the Province takes escalating sanctions towards them. So it starts with warning letters, it might involve an interview to talk to them about their safety practices, and then it would move to perhaps suspensions or other kind of actions to try and redirect them, perhaps a safety audit, up to eventually it could include a cancellation. At the time that we issue a cancellation, or throughout this process, they’re given written notice that this has happened, they’re -- at the time of cancellation, and then they are allowed to seek a hearing or a response in writing to the Deputy Registrar. There’s -- based on that, there’s also an appeals process that they’re allowed to go through as well. So I think that was the challenge that we were trying to communicate to Transport Canada and the City of Ottawa at the time was that the Highway Traffic Act itself and the CVOR is built around this process or these procedures that are well understood by the Courts, well understood by industry, and to protect the legitimacy of it, we couldn’t try and use that process to do something different. And that was the challenge that we were trying to articulate, until the emergency orders were put in place, where it was a different regime. And I’m sure we’ll get into that later.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We started investigating this right away and had great difficulty finding tow truck operators that were willing to help. We looked at -- we do have some arrangements with tow truck operators. Not in municipal, but on highways, certain highways, as well as in our truck inspection stations, some of them. so we started contacting them, as well as any other providers we spoke to, some of their, you know, stakeholder representatives that represent the tow truck industry and had very little luck. Eventually we were able to find a few that would agree to help out, but my understanding was, and I wasn’t directly involved in this, but my understanding from those that were, that it was a very difficult process to try and find tow truck operators that would be willing to help.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was the threat of -- to their livelihoods, to their business, and to their drivers. They had indicated to us that, you know, there was a lot of social media that was obviously -- and in the news about this. So I think they were very worried that, you know, these are also their customers, that if they participated in this, they wouldn’t have any business. But I even know when some names did leak out, they were inundated with calls and threats. And I believe some backed out as a result of that as well.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Just through calls through contacts that were made by -- in our Operations Division. They were calling, you know, late into the nights to try and find someone, and eventually a small number, one or two, said yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct. We didn't actually contract with them directly, they were just -- we just helped to facilitate for the purposes of the OPP.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding from the area that was working with them, they weren't used directly, they weren't forced to do it, but the indemnification that came in the federal Emergency Order was helpful because they were worried about damage to their vehicles. I was told they couldn't get insurance. So I don't know if this tipped the scales or not, I wasn't part of those discussions and when they made their decisions, but I understand that insurance was an issue for them and that this was helpful.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think just to the point of there is about 150 officers spread around the entire province doing -- also providing -- doing their daily safety mandate. So that's a limited number compared to I think the numbers that were being talked about for police, and certainly small compared to the size of the police forces across the province.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't think -- to my knowledge, there was never a request for resources that we weren't able to meet. This was -- you know, this was early in the dialogue that was happening, where the Ministry of Transportation was brought in. So I think she was more making a point that, you know, it's a -- I mean, it's much larger than some small municipal police forces, but it's much smaller than, you know, the OPP has, for example, that we just don't have a large pool of resources to direct to help.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe what she's referring to here is the point that I was making when I described the CVOR regime, where -- or even licensing, for example, where points are accumulated on a driver record or a carrier record based on, you know, convictions and things that actually happen, and that takes time. You know -- so for that to happen, if there was a desire to see us jump to, for example, as some have indicated, just start to cancel CVORs, I think she was trying to make the point that that's not how we deploy that legislation, it's done through the process that I outlined before, which takes actually quite a bit of time to move through the system.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The trucking industry is regulated provincially across the country. So if you're a trucking company that home base is in Alberta, for example, the Province of Alberta regulates that trucking company, Ontario does not. So I think she was simply referring to that, that, you know, even notwithstanding the time that it would take to sanction an Ontario carrier, we don't actually regulate out of province carriers. So I think she was just trying to speak to that, that each jurisdiction regulates those trucking companies in their home province.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's correct.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I didn't.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I am not aware of direct conversations with the City of Ottawa. Most of our interactions were done through -- the interactions that I was involved in were through Transport Canada.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, I have seen these.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
On Monday, I think. I don't recall the specific purpose of this meeting, but I do know, because there were several meetings that were happening on Monday, and at that point there was a desire to try and understand the options that could be deployed by transportation ministries and getting situational updates based on what was happening in each jurisdiction. I suspect that's what the discussion was here, but I would need to just look at the notes again.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm familiar -- not necessarily that term of maximum enforcement strategy. I am familiar with a document that they created called an enforcement strategy.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't -- I have -- I've read this, and I -- I'm sorry, I don't know what's intended by that statement. And I'm wondering, can you just -- can you go back up to -- I'm wondering if this was -- and just -– yeah like right to the top, I’m just wondering if it shows the -- oh, no, it doesn’t the attendees. Sorry. I’m just not sure if this was the call that Deputy Minister Leblanc was on or whether it was Deputy Di Tommaso that might have also been on this because I think joint PSTC might have been -- might have been Transportation’s and Solicitor-General, so it might like -- because a statement like that around enforcement doesn’t sound like something that would have come from the Ministry of Transportation.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, again, that would be the Solicitor-General, and I would say, you know, I think there would be a general sentiment that -- in the Ontario government that they do not direct police forces.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, not quite because MTO would -- MTO certainly would not direct police, like, and -- but our role in this was to support police. So I would say that was more of our guiding principle rather than that we don’t direct them, is it’s a further -- we’re further removed from that in these types of events where there’s a protest or, you know, it’s a public order issue. Police lead the response, and Ministry of Transportation is there only to assist. I would say that would be our more fundamental principle as how we would respond in all cases here.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think so. And maybe I would add to that, too. We would want to be careful not to -- not to interfere with what was a police-led response. What I mean by that is, you know, police would be -- as I’m sure -- I know the Commission has heard, developing plans, developing communication strategies, all of these things, we would not want to as -- in our role as just playing an assisting role, somehow inadvertently create a problem for what police were planning to do, so I would say, you know, the principle was we were there to assist, but we were also, you know, more importantly, not there to not somehow interfere with what they were doing as well.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It is. And you know, in reading this, I would probably position it a little bit differently in that police are the lead for anything to do with enforcement. Sol-Gen was the, you know, coordinating body from an Ontario government perspective. I think, you know, in writing that out I probably used a -- I just want to kind of clarify that because I don’t think Sol-Gen was the lead for enforcement. I think that was -- that was police. But from an Ontario government response, Sol- Gen was coordinating that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Actually, no. So if there was requests from police, they would go directly to MTO, either our Operations Division to support with, you know, signage and those types of things, or to our Transportation Enforcement branch for assistance there. Sol-Gen would more be a coordinating body from a government response to this. So I think what we were trying to position here is that when the federal government was reaching out to Ontario Ministries, so Ministry of Transportation, we really wanted to try and funnel the response through Sol-Gen, who were at, you know, meetings and they were more involved than Ministry of Transportation was. So we didn’t want to be sending up information that perhaps would be, you know, different than what the policing strategy or the enforcement strategy might be from Sol- Gen, who are having more direct conversations with the police.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sorry. Can you just -- when you mean “usual activities”, can you ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Oh, yes. Yes. If it’s a transportation safety initiative, so you know, our Transportation Enforcement Officers have a mandate and they deploy that mandate regularly. It does not involve policing, for example. They don’t have the powers to arrest or they -- certainly if -- I would say if it was, you know, any protest, whether it was of this magnitude or even a -- you know, a small protest, police would lead the response to that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right. I think the only thing we were just clarifying there is that it -- the point on convictions, not charges, so to -- for something to affect an operator’s record, it has to be a conviction, not simply a charge.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Just remind me of the date of this.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Actually, I believe on February the 8th is when -- so yes, there had been requests of police, so -- the weekend before where there was the protest in Toronto where we were asked to kind of patrol, so there was those requests. And I believe it was on February the 8th that the OPP asked that Transportation Enforcement Officers be under their command for the purposes of the response.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Param is the Director of the MTO Enforcement Program.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Commercial motor vehicles.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It's Commercial Vehicle Safety Association, I believe. These are basically -- that's an organising body, but it's basically what he's referring to there is doing mechanical inspections of ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- commercial vehicles.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know who he's sending to. It looks -- I'm assuming he's sending it to all of -- the entire MTO Enforcement officer group. So I think he's -- I think it's information sharing, so knowing that this is what's happening, and to make sure officers are aware of what their responsibilities are.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, and I know they ultimately, you know, updated the operational plans, et cetera, to accommodate this, but I suspect this was the, you know, having just been informed and agreed to that's what they were doing, they were making sure officers were aware as quick as possible.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
This is basically making sure that officers understand that they're there in a supporting role for police based on that -- it's probably outlined in here as well, but similar to what you would have saw in the exhibit we just had, which was speaking to their role of helping with inspections, providing expertise, that type of role versus, you know, making sure that they know they're not out there handing out tickets or doing those types of things.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know where it came from, but it would be -- it rings true as to the way that these type of -- the approach and -- to this type of activity is -- when there's a police-led initiative, police are there to do enforcement, we provide support and expertise within our mandate. But again, our officers are not -- they're not armed. They're not -- they don't -- you know, they don't have firearms and things like that, so they would not provide that type of support.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think it was twofold. There had been a lot of discussions that we had had back and forth between the Ministry of Transportation and Transport Canada, where we had committed to following up, and we wanted to make sure that our position was formally responded to. But I also think, you know, there was many discussions where the federal government or municipalities had made suggestions that, you know, why don't you just cancel COVR, as an example? Like, you know, why can't you use these types of powers? And we were trying to just make it clear that this -- you know, we've looked into this and it's not possible, so we just wanted to make sure we went on record by describing what we felt we could and couldn't do, so that there was no kind of ambiguity to it. And the other piece was just to make sure the roles and responsibilities within the Ontario government was made clear that Sol Gen, the Solicitor General's, the Ministry of Solicitor General was the coordinating Ministry body and MTO was there to assist.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Requests from the Federal Government to the Ontario Government, yeah, we were requesting that that go through the Solicitor General.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The Ministry of the Solicitor General, sorry. Not the Solicitor General.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I don’t think that was the intent, so much as, you know, in this part of the week, you know, the first half of the week of, you know, started on, I guess, you know, from the 4th to the 8th or 9th when this was sent, there was a lot of reach out between different parties trying to get their arms around what’s possible, what’s not possible. And I think in Ontario, we were trying to put some order to our response so that we could be coordinated and, you know, most effectively support the operations. So I don’t think it was meant to be anything more than that, was to just try and put in -- chain of command is probably not the right language, but, you know, a proper communication flow so that we could make sure that, as an Ontario Government, we were all working together to support as best as possible. But it wasn’t to suggest that anybody was overreaching or -- and it certainly wasn’t to try to be unhelpful in any way. It was trying to help us be organized in our response.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The -- and I don’t know if it was ever a direct ask, but it was certainly questions or comments that suggested we should be using all powers within our toolkit, including cancellations of CVORs. I don’t think they were suggesting that, like, you know, go against what is allowed by the Highway Traffic Act, or going against procedures, but they also didn’t understand all of the procedures. So I think it was them trying to understand and in a very, you know, narrow review of the legislation, it could be interpreted that you could just do that. And we were trying to explain that the application of the legislation doesn’t practically do that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think -- technically anything is -- you could send a warning letter to do something like that. We were never asked by police to do it and it was a police-led response. So I would clarify that first. But I would also say I think we would be of the opinion that, you know, sending warning letters for something that we know we wouldn’t deploy wouldn’t be the right thing to do.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Certainly there was lots of discussions about what we could and couldn’t do, including, you know, notifying commercial vehicle operators that their trucks were there. Like, we looked at all sorts of different things that could be considered. I don’t know whether this was specifically discussed.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We do. Yeah, our -- the Transportation Enforcement Officers are trained in Transportation of Dangerous Goods legislation.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not aware. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m just not specifically aware of whether or not the officers -- that was part of their mandate that was given, if asked by police to do that. I do not know if they actually did it.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I actually don’t know how many vehicles there were in Ottawa and whether most or -- there were certainly a large number of commercial vehicles in Ottawa. That we know. But in terms of whether it was most, I actually don’t know.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did, but only at the time when we were asked to exercise suspensions as part of the emergency orders.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in the discussions that I was part of. That -- there may have been discussions around where the authority lies, specifically of -- with bridges, but you know, at an Operational level we were supporting the Windsor Police and the Ontario Provincial Police. So you know, it wasn't part of the discussions I was having as to who had the authority.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm -- so not -- I'm not an expert in that, but that would be my sense, is that -- and that seemed to be the way it was playing out, is that Windsor Police were leading the response to this with the help of the OPP, and perhaps RCMP. I'm not sure whether they were involved or not because we weren't directly involved in the police Operations, but -- I mean, that's consistent with my understanding from a layman's point of view is -- of what seemed to be happening.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm not, and -- like this type of kind of discussion that was happening I wasn't part of.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sorry, is there a document that ---
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Oh, yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm aware of this.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So my understanding of this one was it wasn't directly related to the convoy protesters, it was -- we were asked to provide commercial motor vehicle enforcement, a blitz, that was not addressing the people participating in the protest, but rather, focussing on other commercial motor vehicles that were around. Because I think from reading this, it's -- and I don't know the City of Ottawa's motivations specifically, but from reading this was that they were -- wanted to make sure that the public knew we were also doing regular truck inspections as well. And my understanding is they did do some additional truck inspections on that weekend.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's correct. That was provided to the OPP.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't have much to offer on that, unfortunately. MTO doesn't regulate insurance. That's -- I believe it's the Ministry of Finance that does that. I don't believe we had, to our knowledge or to my knowledge, certainly, that there was any powers that the Ministry of Transportation has or even perhaps the Province to do anything specific with insurance. Certainly not the Ministry and not to my knowledge.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Yes, so -- yeah, for sure. So if you -- you know, as you collect demerit points on your licence your insurance often goes up, and the same is with the CVOR Program, that, you know, over time as you have a -- if you have a worse safety record you may have insurance impacts from that.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So largely -- the first I would say is there was a direct nexus between blocking or impeding critical infrastructure, as identified here, to the ability for the Deputy Registrar or the, sorry, the Registrar to suspend licences, driver's licences, vehicle plates, and CVORs. That was the most substantive change for the Registrar so for MTO to be able to implement, and of course, it also gave police other powers in terms of directing people to leave the area and other penalties.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My feeling is that this was intended to capture a situation like Ottawa, and was used by police in Ottawa, so I believe the answer to that would be yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They were. Not 5; I think police used 5. But the Registrar did, through the Deputy Registrar, use the powers of number 6.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was at the time that the protests were being cleared in Ottawa; I want to say February 19th and 20th and maybe 21St.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It could be if there was a need to have some sort of highway barrier for, you know, an extended period of time.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. It was a similar situation as to what we were having with the tow trucks, that contractors were worried about the implications of provide -- of helping. So it took -- you know, it had to go through several to find one that would -- that would be able to supply. Ministry of Transportation doesn’t have our own source of contract barriers, so we had to use -- or sorry; the barriers, the concrete barriers, so we had to use contractors.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding of the strategy was that Transport Canada wanted to give a playbook for the federal government, the provincial government, and police to be able to use consistent messaging and consistent approaches to how enforcement could be deployed in response to the protests.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So, I mean, this would be pretty normal for -- there’s a -- you know, a good cooperation generally between the federal government and the Province, so as they’re developing documents, they’ll send out drafts and we provide our input. In this case, it was generally to try and make sure that it was -- we tried to make, like, fact-based edits to their document. I don’t believe it’s in here, but I do know in meetings we suggested that this type of document should go through -- again, through the Ministry of Solicitor General.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember seeing a final version of this.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t believe so. I don’t believe so.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I am. It’s not an area of the Ministry I’ve ever had any involve -- direct involvement in. But I can do my best to give you some context if...
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, no. Essentially, my understanding of this is it’s to allow police to -- they already have access to driver’s licence photos. This allows them to reproduce the photos if they need to. And it’s commonly used in -- for investigative purposes, or could even be used for, you know, an Amber Alert, or something like that, where they wanted access to a picture or something like that, so ---
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- those would be the type of exceptional circumstances.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So my understanding was this just brought a little bit more specificity to their role to support the clearing of the protests. So they had some additional duties where they were going to be working at the areas where tow trucks might be removing vehicles and where they might be taking them for storage.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, sorry. Just to clarify, so they did not actually remove vehicles but just making sure that the mechanical fitness was sound so that they could be towed, and then in the -- wherever the drop-off point was, just to assist police with that, and also if police had any questions on completing any of the forms that they needed to do with -- related to the Deputy -- the emergency orders or anything else.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t specifically know, but I would imagine it would have been.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. There was -- I believe the number’s around 50, 50 to 60 of these that were issued at the request of police.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t have any insight into the police planning around the -- around that.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t specifically recall one.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember participating in a call. It’s possible I did. I don’t specifically remember the call, though.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. So that’s as I was talking about before. So if there’s a conviction that’s related to mechanical fitness or driver behaviour, that is related to the commercial vehicle operator registration. Once a conviction happens, it then goes on the CVOR record.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right, yeah. That’s as I described earlier.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s -- no. It’s to a particularly -- it’s, sorry, to the enforcement branch of MTO.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. At this point I wasn’t directly involved in this. I was only following it, what was in the media.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that -- I don’t know that I would take from this email that there was an awareness of other groups. I can’t speak to why only this particular website is identified. So I can’t say with certainty that the answer to that question.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Three’s multiple versions of this. We went through some of them, I think, in the ---
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can’t say for sure, but that -- without seeing if the document states that. But just looking at these locations, that would seem to be correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right, right, yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s possible but I wasn’t part of the design or the creation of this document or really involved at this time, so I can’t verify that for you for sure. But this document, obviously, only refers to that.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I feel like by the Monday we had a good sense that it was getting bigger than we had initially thought.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding from talking to the enforcement director is they did have conversations with the OPP, and they were asked not to use the truck inspection facilities for this purpose.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can’t say that what went into this was as the result -- request of the OPP, but I would say that, you know, as a general application of these types of, you know, protest-type activities, that MTO would not interfere.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, my understanding on that weekend is MTO officers were also providing regular patrols in Ottawa as well. I believe MTO was also assisting with closing of highways. I don’t know whether it was done through enforcement officers, but I believe that weekend there may have been some highway closures. I may be wrong in my facts, but I know there was definitely times where MTO assisted with closing of highways or exits at the request of the OPP. It’s possible it wasn’t on that weekend.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I did.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
One was my staff, two were Assistant Deputy Minister colleagues.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I don't -- I didn't mean it to say that. I think people -- it's a Saturday, and I -- they would need to engage other people to try and find these things out. So I was suggesting that we would have something to them by end of day Monday.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
She's the Deputy Minister, so she -- I don't ---
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- send her, just to be clear.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, it's my boss.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that's what it says.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
M'hm.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's what it says, yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know if I can speak for all of Ontario. You know, I was just being brought into this from the federal government at this time to look at options. I don't know that we thought this to be purely a federal problem. We did -- I do think we understood the movement was against the federal mandate, but you know, in our minds this was a policing issue, not necessarily a federal versus provincial issue.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, it sounds like she's waiting for an update.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's what she says, yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not here, not, but, you know, we did -- maybe this isn’t your question, but just in case this is helpful, we did, you know, immediately move from this to develop options, which ultimately became, later that week, that same week, in the Emergency Order.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I -- no, I don’t know his recollection.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well it did -- it did, in that -- and we went through this. We’d have to bring it up so I could describe, but it does include municipal roads. And those powers were deployed in the City of Ottawa, if that’s where you’re going.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
All provisions, including CVOR powers that were talked about previously.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall that specifically, but.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I did see that in the media.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
And if we go then, finally, back to the top of page 2, this is the evening of February the 16th. It indicates that one of the three towing companies has in fact dropped out, which is what gets you to the number 10, instead of 13 that you thought you had earlier that day; right?
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’ve subsequently read in the documents that there was questions as to how it would be funded.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I didn’t have any involvement in this at the time.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Likely his first week on the job.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That would be an advisor in his office.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. I read this as him asking that question.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I haven’t seen the request and I don’t have any information. I’m sorry.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not. I haven’t seen the request, either, nor would I in my current position.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not aware of what the Ministry intends in this regard. Again, in my current position as in corporate services, it’s not something that I would be aware of. I do know that the Province ultimately did pass further legislation and I can’t speak to who was consulted on that.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I wasn’t involved in it, so I can’t say.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, we do have a plan.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I expect it would be Eric Deutsch.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
He’s the Assistant Deputy Minister of our operations division.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know the full scope of the plan, so I can’t answer whether it does or not.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hello.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, over a certain weight, I believe.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That sounds right, yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, convictions. Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct. The only thing -- maybe the only thing I would just add to that is that’s -- there’s other interventions before it gets to that point.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would expect so.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s part of it. It’s not only that it takes time. It also allows for appeals, hearings, which -- so I guess that’s part of taking time. But it doesn’t -- it doesn’t allow us to take direct, immediate action.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Likely, yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, something to that effect. Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think it was just as you’ve -- just what you’ve just said there, is the -- the legal analysis and the Deputy Registrar view, the experts in the Ministry was that if we start to use this for something that it wasn’t intended for or we have no process for which, it questions the Ministry’s thinking that maybe -- and maybe that applies to other actions that we take in the future. So, you know, the next time there’s a conviction -- or, sorry, there’s an action taken by the Ministry, have we shown history of constantly using our processes and legislation consistently and, you know, as they were intended for. I think there was a worry of that as well.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, bypassing the normal process and using it for something that, you know, was never -- has never been used in the past, or intended to be.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
To try and address a protest or a civil unrest situation, not to address specifically a case where we have a well-documented safety record and, you know, police records to us requesting certain activities.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think we were trying to get a handle as to -- there was a couple of things. The first I recall there was antedotal [sic] communication we had heard that actually at the bridge it was mostly non-commercial vehicles, and I think we wanted to know if that was actually the case. We just wanted to understand more. And there was even -- you know, we were having all sorts of discussions as to how we could help. I think it’s important to know, we were certainly there to support the OPP but at this time, we had been having discussions with the federal government and others about what else can the Province do. At this time, we were looking at what sort of -- because we believed the CVOR did not work, what could we do? And that’s how the Emergency Order came about. Or I shouldn’t say that’s now the Emergency Order came about; that’s part of what went into the Emergency Order within a matter of two days was new powers that could do what was being asked. So we were looking at all sorts of different angles. We were there to assist the OPP; we weren’t doing any direct enforcement, but we were trying to gather information just like many other people were as well. So we were looking at all sorts of ideas, and I think this also connected, there was just a question; could we start calling CVOR operators to tell them that their truck might be there. Like, this was just, you know, one of the many angles we were trying to do to try and help solve the situation that week. Just because we didn’t think the CVOR was the right way to go, it didn’t mean we weren’t trying to find other ways to address the situation that week.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They can, certainly. And the Ministry’s role would be the same as I’ve described; to assist police as requested.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, as requested by police.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know if it was intended to facilitate a protest. I think it was based on the direction from the OPP to not engage in that way. Like, I just don’t know if the intent was as you’ve described, to facilitate a protest, or not.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. The purpose is highway and -- highway and safety of travelling public.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It wasn’t so much that we didn’t want to, it was that it wasn’t intended or ever used in that way, nor do the procedures or the policies; that it’s the practical application of it was ever intended for it to be used that way. The Highway Traffic Act, as legislation, is about safety for travelling public and, you know, motor vehicles, not about public order or protests. It was never -- that’s not its purpose.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that it was so much a precedent, worry of a precedent. It was worry that it didn’t actually do what people were asking it to do.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, that was a concern.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know if it was OPP, but it was a policing decision.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We provided -- yes. So after we determined that the CVOR was not the appropriate mechanism, we began to develop options that could phonetically be used. We did brief the Minister on that. Ultimately, we provided input into what the Ministry of the Solicitor General was developing, for which they used.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well we provided options looking at, you know, increased changes to, for example, new legislation or changes to the HTA penalties that could exist. Those types of things.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m familiar, but by no means an expert.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what it appears to do, yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not all parts, but I’m familiar with it.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in great detail, but I can understand it.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what it says, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
You’re getting a little out of my depth in terms of legal interpretation here. Whether it’s broad or not.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
“Prescribing prohibited activities”, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
For the purposes of what’s above. But, you know, I just want to refrain from trying to interpret this too much here. It’s beyond my expertise.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t -- I don’t know the answer to that. It’s -- you’re -- there’s -- there could be other provisions here that suggest otherwise. I don’t know this well enough.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m just -- I’m not a lawyer, and any time we would say what we can or can’t do we would -- it’s something we would engage our counsel on. So I don’t want to tie myself to an answer that I am -- could be wrong, for the Commissioner.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think based on what you said, possibly, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in any sort of depth.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That I don’t know.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, I’m -- so two things: Without the Act in front of me, I can’t say that that’s part of it or not. I’m ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
You know, I don’t work for the federal government. And, again, police were leading the response, so you’d have to ask police whether or not that would’ve been helpful.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, it started ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- started -- oh, oh sorry, you’re talking about the -- in Windsor.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe that’s the date.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Twelfth (12th) and 13th, I believe, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The federal Minister?
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not to my knowledge.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hello.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe they were as well.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember the exact time, but it was in advance of the expected weekend protest.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I -- again, we weren’t making decisions. It was the police who asked for the help, so I -- one could imagine that might have been why they wanted to do that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That was MTO’s understanding, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall them speaking to the timelines or level of disruption.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well that, I don’t know about relevant, but that’s maybe when whatever intelligence the enforcement community at MTO had became apparent.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would have to look at them, but I don’t recall that being the case. And probably consistent with MTO’s role for, you know, protests, is we don’t get the same level of intelligence that police do. So that might have been the understanding of those who were involved at the time.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well MTO wouldn’t have that role. Again, in a protest situation, police would be the lead, and we would be there to assist. I don’t know, in any of these, that the level of concern is ever indicated and I didn’t -- I was not involved in these early reports. So I’m seeing them, you know, for the first time when we’ve pulled them up.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what we understood it to be.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would have to see the document, but are you -- sorry, are you asking is his statement correct or ---
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
MTO does do enforcement blitzes, not directly on the highways, but, you know, near highways. In this case, we were asked not to do that type of work by police, by the OPP.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that’s my understanding.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Yeah.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t in my current role, but I did in the role that I was in during the time of the protests.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. And maybe just to clarify too, it wasn’t a formal committee meeting, but members of the committee were meeting informally at the request of Transport Canada.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. It was -- that was part of the purpose. Absolutely.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They -- certainly people can ask to meet on the weekend. Again, I don’t know that formal committee meetings would ever occur, but informal meetings, I could imagine could be called at any time.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my recollection, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that would be part of the conversation as well.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall it or see it in any meetings summaries, no.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Maybe to clarify, this is Ministries of Transportation, typically. So something like that might not be raised at that meeting, because it’s not necessarily a transportation tool. But yes, I would think it would be something we would remember and would report back on.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know -- I don’t know if I can answer whether it was fair or not. Certainly having time and awareness would be -- but I also know it’s -- you know, it a very big instrument for the government to -- the Federal Government to use, and I don’t know that they would start with a -- that group to speak to first.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I mean, it’s -- the more information is always better. But I just -- I don’t know if I would agree that we would expect to hear about the Federal Government choosing to invoke such a, you know, legislation or a tool at that type of meeting. That would be my sense. I don’t know. I wouldn’t necessarily -- I wouldn’t expect to hear something like that in that committee.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding of the federal legislation, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s primarily a safety legislation, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That sounds right. Yeah.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, I think I might have -- I maybe was asked for relevant provisions. But yes, that’s why.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That was part of the concern, yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right. Not without the due process and the collecting of evidence and following the steps.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, I wouldn’t -- I don’t believe we have an opinion on what police do or don’t do. That’s up to police in the context of the situation that they’re dealing with.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, it was more specific to what MTO should do, not an opinion on what police should or shouldn’t do.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, there is. So my understanding is convictions that would happen in one jurisdiction are shared with the home jurisdiction and would go on their record there. What doesn’t happen is the points that are accumulated on our -- in Ontario there’s no -- sorry. I’m not doing a very good job explaining this. To maybe to really quickly answer -- to better answer the question, if there’s a conviction that happens in Ontario, another jurisdiction would report that on their carrier’s record.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, so if we took action specifically, we can only take action from a -- a sanctioning action on Ontario carriers, meaning we can only suspend Ontario carriers’ CVOR. We don’t have the ability to remove or suspend the licensing of an out-of-province carrier. We can -- if police lay charges and there’s convictions in Ontario, that would go on their home record, but what that province does and how that impacts their licence in that jurisdiction, Ontario has no control over. Does that help clarify?
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Absolutely. I would think that they would be somewhat similar from province to province, although I can’t speak to what other provinces have. The suggestion was more in response to, at the time, there was a suggestion, well, why don’t we just cancel their -- or suspend their CVORs or equivalent in other provinces. And the point that was being made is Ontario doesn’t have the power to suspend or cancel other provinces’ abilities to operate.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah. This is true. I don’t know that we were trying to say anything other than that it’s -- you know, we have control over the Ontario population of carriers. We do not have oversight of out-of-province carriers.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, police would lay charges or our enforcement officers for specific infractions, but the role of the registrar or the deputy registrar in sanctioning them only applies to Ontario carriers. Maybe that’s a better way to describe it.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Specifically with the emergency order, there was no rights to appeal. It was a direct sanction that the registrar could apply.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Related, I think, specifically -- I think I was referring to direct that tow trucks must comply or any sort of indemnification.
-
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall that -- a request on that.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know.
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Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Thank you.