Kenneth Weatherill
Kenneth Weatherill spoke 81 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir, I can. Thank you.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, it is, and I have a Bible in my right hand.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
My name is Kenneth Alexander Weatherill, K-E-N-N-E-T-H Alexander, A-L-E-X-A-N-D-E-R Weatherill, W-E-A-T-H-E-R-I-L-L.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Well, my evidence is that the police service advisors deliver orientation training. There is also a package that is provided to every board member who becomes a member of the Board. But when I think of training I think of lesson plans, I think of course training standards, and I think of that. That is not the formal training that is under -- that is delivered currently to the Police Services Act. There is ongoing training on a number of different areas that may come up that the advisors are able to help support the Board or help support the Board to receive training in a number of different areas such as an example of a Board asking for training in harassment and discrimination, and biases. And could they get support in identifying those kinds of training plans.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, ma’am. It is.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes. So the context of this is we were a number of days into an ongoing incident in Ottawa and the Board approached the advisor and asked for training related to Board governance. The Ottawa Police Services Board is a very experienced Board. They’ve had significant orientation. They have significant experience and a large number of assets available to them. So the position that I took and the direction was in the middle of an incident is not the time to remove a Board from their role and their function of governance and set them down and to provide additional training on top of what they’ve received, and the policies that they’re governing themselves by. What I did ask was that the advisor asked for particular questions from the Board and specifically the executive director and then we would help facilitate those questions with the appropriate answers and assist them in the interpretation of the legislation, their roles and their functions and their responsibilities.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, that’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
They are legally separate as a matter of law. What I meant by that and what I continue to stand by is the Board has a responsibility and the ability to tap into resources of experience that can help them guide through particular scenarios and situations without disclosing the intimate details of those situations and scenarios. That forms part of responsible governance.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So if I understand your question correctly, you're asking me if there is only one person that’s listed in that entire group that has a statutory responsibility to provide adequate and effective policing?
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I’m just reading what’s there, just you can see what I’m doing. So the Board members themselves had a responsibility so that’s one entity. Legal counsel to the Board has a responsibility to help guide the Board. And the Police Service advisors have a responsibility to ensure adequate and effective delivery of policing is provided through part -- section 3(2) of the Police Services Act. But that doesn't preclude the Board from having their own responsibilities under section 4 and heir duties under section 31.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Can you rephrase that question, please? I’m not quite sure I'm understanding exactly what the question is.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So I'm not familiar with any case that the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on. With respect to responsibilities of the delivery of adequate and effective policing, in the Act there’s actually three areas that I'm familiar with. The first one is the Board, and they’re responsible to provide adequate and effective policing. The role of the minister as set out in section 3(2) and the municipal council to provide the necessary funding in order to deliver upon the services which can arguably be connected back into adequate and effective policing.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
The municipal members of the Board, not the provincial members of the Board.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, that’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Ninety-four (94) minutes in total.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I did, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
No, sir. I did not have access to any video films.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes sir, that’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That's correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I don't accept the statement that they were in the hands of. Ms. Gray ---
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
--- was providing professional guidance fulfilling her duty as a Police Service Advisor for the Ministry of the Solicitor General.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
It would have been late January into early, early February. There were board meetings taking place in January when the intelligence started to surface, to indicate that there was going to be large-scale demonstrations across the country, and in particular, in Ontario, and that there was believed to be a large group of individuals that may be moving towards Ottawa. And I was aware of that information in late January.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
There were meetings. In January, no, but there were meetings in February where the link was provided for the general public to watch the open session and I observed portions of that.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Comment made by who, sir?
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
No, I had no direct contact with any members of the Board nor the Chief during that entire time.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I believe that to be true.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I believe that to be factual during the meetings. I know there were conversations outside of the meetings, but during the meetings I believe that to be accurate.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
No, that's not true, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Ms. Gray provided a document that addressed questions, provided answers for the Board, and was having conversations with the Executive Director in relation to those questions and answers.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir, I was.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I should be able to, sir. I'll let you know the minute it's up.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
It's up now, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir, I do.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That's what -- I don't know if that if that is the single stated purpose, but that is certainly the way Chair Deans reflected that on bullet number two.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir, I do.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
What I will say is that on bullet four, the Chief committed to lay out where the Service is at and what their plan is. And then if we scroll down on that same document, the Chief and the Deputy discuss how many arrests they've made, how they deployed some of their officers in and around the city. What's missing there is I think the crux to what the question from the Chair was, is my recollection of that meeting, was around what is happening with the demonstrators, what is happening from the dismantling -- where is the dismantling plan, and how are we going to return that piece of the city back to the residents.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
At that time, what I can say is the Chief makes mention of the number of officers that have been seconded and supporting from the RCMP, from the OPP, and I believe he mentions seven other municipal services. So this is on the 5th of December -- or of February rather. And I believe the initial demonstration began the weekend prior to that.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I'm aware that there are resources on the ground supporting the Ottawa Police Service. I have never been provided operational plans. I have never seen operational plans. And I have never seen what the true state of affairs were other than what was truly reported through the media and what I have received through the briefings.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
It's not my place to ask for operational plans, sir. We ---
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
--- we don't oversee operations.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I don't think I was ever asked that question and that's not what my summary of my evidence was. My evidence was around the issue -- I think if we go to page 4 of my summary, the third paragraph down, that I found it concerning that when there were questions being asked around the removal of the demonstrators in front of Capitol Hill, that there was no operational plan that was being able to be discussed. And in this document you have up here displayed on the in-camera portion, it speaks to that there will be future tense work to put together an operational plan. That was the substance of the conversations that I shared with counsel that becomes part of my summary.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what the Board was thinking, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I can't answer that.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
No, sir, I did not.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I don’t -- if you could produce that briefing document, I'd be able to confirm whether I saw it or not.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, I don't know that. I can't answer that question.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I don’t have the dates of those briefings. I know that I was in contact with the police service advisor during and after those briefings.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I can say that it would be unlikely that I would have attended the entire briefing or meetings because they were happening at a number of last-minute meetings that were being called and were happening, really quick turnarounds at irregular hours.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s not my experience, sir, no.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
There's been no formal endorsement of the Morden Report, but there was an all-chief's memo that was distributed to all chiefs of police and deputy -- and service Boards. And the direction within that Morden Report was that Board policies were to be reviewed and updated to align with the recommendations of the Morden Report.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So I would expect that if a chief suspected that there was a leaky board or challenges with leaking information, then the necessary steps would have been taken by the chief, with the chair, and/or with OCPC to address that situation.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I'm not familiar that a member attended or provided donations. I recall hearing at the board meetings that a number of board members had observed the demonstration.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s right. No information there to confirm or deny that.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir. A chief always needs to consider the integrity of the investigation, the safety of the officers, the safety of the -- in this case, the demonstrators, and the broader community. And if that were to be compromised, then yes, that would be the responsible thing for a chief to do.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Thank you, sir.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, ma'am.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, it is.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That and the fact that they -- I think it's a responsible thing to do for a board to regularly ask the chief and ask themselves, are we, in fact, delivering adequate and effective policing? Are we satisfying our legislative responsibility in the Police Services Act?
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I would agree that throughout the -- a major event, that it would be appropriate for a board to ask those questions of itself and of their chief.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
The chief set out that he did have the ability to provide, from my interpretation of what I heard in the board meeting and in review of the board summary from the advisor, that the chief did demonstrate verbally to the board how adequate and effective policing was being delivered throughout the city. He was asking for additional support with respect to the demonstration -- demonstrators in the demonstration area.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s right. He's saying he needs help with the demonstration but he is able to maintain public safety in the rest of the city.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That’s what he's informing the Board.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes. That’s what he's informing the Board of, that he needs support with the demonstration.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So if we turn to section 9, and you mentioned it a just a little bit earlier -- if we turn to section 9(6), the municipal chief of police who is in the opinion of an emergency existing in the municipality may request that the commissioner have the Ontario Provincial Police give assistance. That had taken place. So there was a direct line between the Ottawa Police Service and the Chief to the Commissioner, and I was very much aware that there was support on the ground by the Ontario Provincial Police to support the demonstration and the dismantling of that demonstration at that time.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
That's correct.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So there would be a number of necessary steps that would need to take place if the Board had lost confidence in their Chief, and if the Board were to reach out to the Commissioner and ask for policing services, then the Chief would need to be removed. And that did not happen. The Chief had made the request, the Board appeared to be satisfied with that request, and was aware that the OPP were there and supporting the Ottawa Police Service in formulating plans, along with seven other municipal services, and on the 5th of December, up to 257 RCMP officers.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, February. I apologise.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
No, I disagree with that. They were asking for governance training. That Board is quite experienced in governance. They wanted governance training in the middle of an incident, and that would have been irresponsible for my advisor to be there pulling a board away from their responsible duties of governance and oversight in managing the scenario from their perspective in their function and roles.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I would. And that there should be policies within the Board to deal with that, and the Board should be very much aware of what the necessary steps would be to advance that complaint and that issue to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So with the Chief, there's a couple of different pathways that can be followed there, sir, with the Chief being aware of it or the Board itself being aware of it.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
Of course. So generally, if it was the Chief who was made aware of it, and if the Chief was confident that it was not the Board Chair, then they would have that conversation with the Board Chair and give the Chair an opportunity to share the appropriate policies with the broader Board and address the individual that may be that leak. If that does not resolve it, or if it's of such significant, serious significance, then the Board Chair can go directly to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission and ask them to conduct a review and a subsequent investigation into it -- the matter. If the Board Chair themselves are aware of it, then it's incumbent upon the Board to address their own policies, and if that does not correct the matter, then the Board, or if it's of significant severity that it would be inappropriate to do so, then the Board Chair would again then go directly to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission and request that they undertake a review and launch an investigation into misconduct of a, potential misconduct of a Board member.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
I would agree that if it exists today, then it needs to be addressed, and that it's unfortunate if they were aware of it back in February or January, whenever that was -- others were first made aware of it that it wasn't addressed then.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
The relationship between the Board, the trust in confidence of the Board, the trust in confidence of the broader community in the Board, of counsel of the Board, and then the entire relationship that's necessary for proper good governance of a police service.
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Kenneth Weatherill, Deputy Inspector General (ON-SolGen)
So I'll start by saying I was not aware that the advisor had that information. If the advisor did have that information, then the advisor, number one, would have -- should have reported that through the chain of command up to myself, and that would have been something I would have shared with the deputy. And then the advisor would speak with the Chair, speak with the Chief if necessary, and would follow the similar path of notifying the -- reviewing the policies and then reviewing the -- if necessary, moving it to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission for a review and subsequent necessary investigation.