Michael Williams

Title
Professor (Prof.)
Organization / Affiliation
Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa

Michael Williams spoke 63 times across 1 day of testimony.

  1. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much, Commissioner. My name is Michael Williams. I’m a professor in the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs and I will be moderating this panel on the policing of public protests. I’ll keep my remarks very brief. I guess it’s obvious to say that the Ottawa protests, as well as those that took place at the border, provided significant, if not almost unprecedented challenges to the questions of policing public order and public protests in Canada. I think we have a superb panel to examine some of the policing dimensions of this today. The crucial element of this panel is it is designed to be forward looking. That is, we’re not so much interested in precisely what happened. The Commission has been looking into that in extensive detail. We’re very much interested in what we can learn from these events, what kinds of reforms might be useful, what kinds of strategies might be effective, what kinds of lessons in general can we learn for the future in terms of both public capacities for dissent and protest and also for the policing, if necessary, of precisely those kinds of actions of dissent or protest. Because of the breadth and complexity of the issues that are involved, the panel has decided to divide the issue into three different sections. The first we’re going to deal with as a question or a series of issues around policing strategies. The second around questions of interagency collaboration, or lack thereof, cooperation. And the final one, around questions of regulatory legislation or regulatory instruments. I’ve asked each of the panelists to take the lead on this -- on different areas. So I will ask them to come and speak to those areas for about 10 minutes each. And then we will open it up for discussion on that issue for about -- for the remaining period, up to a 35-minute limit, and then we will flip over into the next issue. So without further adieu, let me introduce our panelists. We have four of them in the room with us today and who unfortunately has come down, I believe, with a cough, and is therefore going to come in virtually to us. So the first person I will introduce you to is our virtual panelist, Cal Corley, who is the Chief Executive Officer of the Community Safety Knowledge Alliance. He is followed by Robert Diab, who is a professor in the Faculty of Law at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, B.C. We’re also lucky enough to have Bonnie Emerson, Superintendent of Community Engagement of the Winnipeg Police Service. Followed by Colton Fehr, Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Law also at Thompson Rivers University. And finally, Michael Kempa, Associate Professor in the Department of Criminology at the University of Ottawa. I’d like then to turn first to the question of policing strategies and the lessons, the implications, the consequences of the Ottawa protest. Michael, perhaps you could lead us off on that topic?

    34-096-20

  2. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Great. Thank you, Michael. I'd like now to turn, please, to Bonnie Emerson.

    34-105-19

  3. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Commissioner, would you have any questions before I open it to the panel?

    34-112-01

  4. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    No?

    34-112-05

  5. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Right.

    34-112-07

  6. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Would anyone like to respond, react, comment? I have a number of questions that I would like to ask, but I want other people to have a chance to go first. Michael, is there anything that you wanted to come in? Cal, I can't -- I don't want to ignore you down there on the screen. No? Okay. Can I ask you, then, Bonnie Emerson, I'm really curious, where you ended with "nothing about us without us" in terms of liaising with the leaderships of various protest groups. But you also stressed at the very beginning of your talk, the fragmented leadership nature of many contemporary, especially mass movements. How does one try to think about bringing in those two things together? With -- how do you think about who the “Us” ---

    34-112-09

  7. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    --- you need speak to is, if you have a fragmented leadership in a movement that is difficult to speak to?

    34-112-26

  8. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much.

    34-114-08

  9. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Cal Corley, please.

    34-114-11

  10. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Excellent. Thank you. Does anybody else want to come in on that? Michael, ---

    34-115-08

  11. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    --- please.

    34-115-12

  12. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    And is it your suggestion, then, that a coordinating device needs to be put in place to bring that kind of -- what in the jargon is called a policing assemblage together; ---

    34-116-19

  13. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    --- a public, private positioning in that way?

    34-116-24

  14. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Great. Would anyone else like to comment on that before I turn it over to Cal? Okay. Cal, please, you’d like to -- a number of these issues are obviously going to intersect with each other. Could you please talk a little about interagency interactions and the issues arising, and anything else that you want to come off the discussion so far?

    34-117-14

  15. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much, Cal. I'll open it up to any other members of the panel. Anybody want to make an intervention, ask a question, comment? Michael Kempa, please.

    34-127-18

  16. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Excellent. Thank you. Bonnie, I'm assuming you'd like to come in on this.

    34-129-10

  17. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Cal, did you want to come back on any of those issues?

    34-130-08

  18. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Robert Diab, please.

    34-131-03

  19. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Cal Corley, please.

    34-131-22

  20. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Anyone else? Commissioner?

    34-132-26

  21. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    All right. I have a question, as I often do, for you, Cal. Your suggestion of bringing in the private much more extensively, would you include the -- those private security actors also in your planning groups, and in your practices?

    34-133-02

  22. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Anyone else on this topic? We'll come back to some of these issues I think. Right. I'd like, finally, to turn to the issue of regulation, please. And begin, first of all, with Robert Diab, and then turn to Colton Fehr.

    34-134-09

  23. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Excellent. Thank you very much. Colton Fehr, please.

    34-139-22

  24. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much, Colten Fehr. Comments, reactions. Michael Kempa, please.

    34-144-09

  25. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Colten Fehr, please?

    34-145-12

  26. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Michael, do you want to comment?

    34-145-20

  27. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Okay.

    34-146-01

  28. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Robert Diab, please.

    34-146-11

  29. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Bonnie Emerson, please?

    34-147-04

  30. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Robert, did you want to come back on that point? Okay. Cal, I don’t want to leave you out just because you’re not in the room. Thank you.

    34-148-10

  31. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Anybody else? Great. I would, if I may abuse my position for a minute, Robert, I’d like to explore the relationship between your idea of exclusion zone legislation and Colton’s concerns particularly about symbolic spaces. And it ties us back, actually, to something Michael said right at the very beginning, that one of the policing strategies one might be able to consider in these cases is a certain period of time at a symbolically significant space, and then a move to a green zone or what everyone wants to call it, where one can continue to protest, however, one is no longer occupying that particular space. I would like to understand how you think about Colton’s concerns about what this does to the nature of the protest itself, which is, after all, tied to a symbolically significant space; right? It is not the same, to use the Ottawa context, having a protest on Parliament Hill, and having a protest in the empty parking lot of a baseball stadium. Right? It simply doesn’t do the same thing, if you’re a protestor, even for the protest and for the public message you’re trying to put forward. So I was wondering if you could just reflect on that issue for a minute? Then I’d like to ask Bonnie if she could put that specifically in the context that you spoke about earlier about Indigenous spaces in particular; right? Where these things are often very, very tied up, not simply with the protest itself, but with where the protest takes place. And if you could talk about what the implications of that would be? Secondly, I’m most interested in this idea of what are the civil rights implications, if you like, of an exclusion zone? I know, although it is not my area of expertise, that the U.K. situation has come under -- the U.K.’s proposed use of these has come under very, very sustained challenged; right? People who worry that it will fundamentally curtail the public's right to dissent. And I was wondering if you could just speak to that general -- those general issues, please, and start off that discussion?

    34-150-01

  32. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Please.

    34-151-12

  33. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Very much so. Colton, did you want to address any of those issues?

    34-153-05

  34. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Right. Bonnie Emerson, please.

    34-153-20

  35. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Michael Kampa.

    34-155-22

  36. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Yeah, please.

    34-156-17

  37. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. I notice we’re coming to the end of our time. I wanted to give everybody the opportunity. Is there a final point or two points that you would like to make, either arising from our discussion; something we haven’t spoken about that you would really think important to put on the agenda before our time closes?

    34-157-04

  38. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Colton Fehr, please.

    34-157-12

  39. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Cal Corley.

    34-158-02

  40. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Michael Kempa?

    34-158-17

  41. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Robert? Do you have any final point? No. Bonnie Emerson? No? Commissioner, any final questions?

    34-159-03

  42. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    I think we have three minutes. We -- can we come up, Michael first, and Robert second, please. Yeah, Michael.

    34-160-03

  43. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Quickly, yes.

    34-160-07

  44. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Robert Diab.

    34-160-17

  45. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    You do. You have one minute.

    34-161-22

  46. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. On that note, Cal Corley, I saw that you had your electronic hand up, but technically speaking, we are now over our time. So thank you very much, everyone. I’ll call this session to a close. We will reconvene in 30 minutes. And thank you for your contributions.

    34-162-20

  47. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you, everyone, for that really, really useful session. We have a number of questions that have emerged for further consideration, one of which has come in directly, and I will simply read it out. So perhaps we’ll begin with that. It’s a rather technical question. So I would like people to deal with that, if they can. The question runs as follows: can the panel assist in framing a recommendation to address the establishment of a framework for drawing upon resources to deal with protests where required? This may be a more pressing issue in the NCR, the National Capital Region, where there are multiple police services. Is it desirable to develop a protocol to establish first, second, and third, and subsequent ports of call, or is it best left to the police of jurisdiction to deal with each situation on an ad hoc basis in response to each particular protest? Anybody have suggestions, thoughts, questions on that? Michael Kempa, please.

    34-163-05

  48. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Cal Corley?

    34-164-21

  49. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Excellent. Thank you. Bonnie Emerson, please?

    34-165-25

  50. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    So in your view then, it’s more a matter of clarifying and rolling out what already exists, as opposed to inventing anything new?

    34-167-02

  51. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Excellent. Thank you. Cal, your hand is up. Did you want to jump back in on this?

    34-167-17

  52. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Robert Diab, please.

    34-168-16

  53. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Robert, could I just follow up on that? Because it seems to me that the key issue you're circling around there is that somebody has to be able to make that decision, right, and that that needs to be specified in advance. It can't simply be assumed that it will come out in a complex and evolving situation. Where would you suggest one begins to think about locating that point of decision?

    34-169-20

  54. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Anybody else?

    34-171-02

  55. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Bonnie, please.

    34-171-04

  56. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Another question that came up, and I'd like to address this one first to Cal Corley, if I may, since you brought it up specifically, I think, in your remarks, Cal, is whether or not the major case management model provides a framework or a basis for thinking about the way in which interagency coordination could take place across Canada. Could you speak a little bit to the strengths and weaknesses of thinking about that as a model for alternative ways of institutional coordination?

    34-171-14

  57. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you. Anybody else like to comment on that question? No? Okay, great. Thank you. I'd like to return us, if we can, to the very beginnings of our discussion, and talk about concrete policing strategies of the protest itself. Someone I think mentioned it, it may have been you, Michael, that it was a rather old fashioned way of policing this protest. And given that on-the-ground policing is obviously connected to all of the institutional kinds of questions we're talking about, can you reflect on what you think the lessons ought to be going forward in terms of the way in which policing was actually handled on a day-to-day basis on the ground as the protest evolved here, and how you think it might have implications in other contexts in the future? I realise that's a very big question.

    34-172-10

  58. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Right. Bonnie, would you like to comment on that?

    34-174-16

  59. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Right. Cal, I see you nodding. Did you want to come in on this point?

    34-175-07

  60. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    That I have no answer to. Anyone else? Great. Those exhaust the questions that we have received. Does anyone have any final comments that they want to make that are particularly important; things that they want to put on the agenda, that the Commissioner, the Commission ought to consider? We have exhausted both the issue and our knowledge of it? Excellent.

    34-175-23

  61. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Yeah.

    34-176-07

  62. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you very much. Commissioner, do you have any final comments?

    34-176-11

  63. Michael Williams, Prof. (Public and International Affairs – University of Ottawa)

    Thank you, everyone.

    34-177-02