Rob Stewart
Rob Stewart spoke 523 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Affirm.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Robert Neil Affleck Stewart. Spell it?
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
R-O-B-E-R-T N-E-I-L A-F-F-L- E-C-K S-T-E-W-A-R-T.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Dakalbab.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Dakalbab.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I accept it. I believe it’s accurate.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Just recently. The 17th of October.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I have.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe it has.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
By all means. Public Safety is a relatively small department that covers all matters associated with security of Canada. It has three main branches, which deal with National and Cyber Security, that’s one branch, Crime Prevention, that’s another, and Emergency Management, that’s the third. It has other branches which do more coordinating or corporate work.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Those are the policy branches.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
By all means, I -- as a Deputy, I’m responsible for the administration of the department and providing policy advice to the Minister on matters associated with public safety and overseeing program delivery. The department runs a number of contribution programs that provide funding for various activities. And I also work with deputy heads of organizations that are in the portfolio. And by the portfolio, I mean these are organizations who are responsible to the Minister. In the public safety portfolio, there are five main organizations, RCMP, CBSA, Canadian Border Service Agency, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Correctional Service of Canada and the Parole Board. Thank you. And they all are independently accountable to the Minister, but we work together as a group and provide advice and, if necessary, the department will do legislation or regulation on their behalf.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In the context of the protest, I was working with a subset of that group who were involved in daily calls and briefings. That would be the RCMP and CBSA primarily and, to a degree, CSIS.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can't say for sure what the broad distribution list is, but it's pretty much federal, provincial, and then the key points would have been going to a selected group of deputies and senior public servants.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
If you'd like, I could just clarify a point here.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Because my colleague has talked about the intelligence side of the operation. The GOC does not consume intelligence or report it. All it does is bring together open source information and operational information that it obtains from various parties. And in the event of a protest or an event in Ottawa that requires coordination with police forces, it will sit in on that and it'll report that information, but none of that is considered to be intelligence and therefore classified.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I'll go first, and Dominic can follow. Information is anything that you can obtain via open source, and is not, by its nature, classified to a -- any degree. I suppose you could, you know, quibble about that, but as a general matter, and to the point that I was making, it really isn't needed to be protected in any way. Whereas, intelligence, which is classified at various levels, needs to be guarded and protected and, you know, represents a threat to the security of Canada if it's disclosed.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So it -- maybe I’ll back up just one step to ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- for that, is just to say that we were monitoring, as you noted earlier, the rising level of protest around the vaccine mandate, which came into force on the 15th of January. So we were, through various groups, monitoring just that there were protests that were likely to arise. And we started getting word of the convoy’s formation on around January 20th, and were, through the GOC and its connection to planning and coordination groups, and one in particular called Intersect, which is a group that brings together all the police of the region and various other entities that have an interest in the security of the national capital. That would’ve been meeting and talking about that. And we were hearing reports and we were -- and then they would be reflected in these key points, those discussions. So this would’ve been January 27th, is on the eve of the arrival of the early -- in Ottawa, of the trucks, and, I believe, just prior to the blockade at Coutts. But the -- so we were growing -- paying a lot of attention to it, getting somewhat concerned about how it would manifest, how many trucks and from where. And there many -- there many convoys coming from east and west, and I believe south, and so we were trying to get a handle on that, and the RCMP were informing us about the numbers of trucks and when they were likely to arrive. And we were asking questions about what is the plan for, you know, managing this protest when it manifests.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The expectation that I had was that the convoy would park and stay for the weekend and leave on the Sunday.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would like to add to that, if I may.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So the convoys were very organic kind of protest, and it was very difficult, and I’ve used the word “intelligence” in a very technical sense before, but to be -- have good intel of what the plans were for any of the convoys as they manifested. And we were starting to see slow roll convoys in other places in the country, and as Dominic has said, we were concerned that this movement would grow and it wouldn’t be just a one time only event, that this would, in the end, manifest across the country in various places. And I believe right by the end of January, we were starting to see the blockade in the Coutts Port of Entry. So therefore, you know, we had evidence that it could in fact impair critical infrastructure and, you know, the economy and the lives of Canadians.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
All right. So we’ve established that prior to the convoy’s arrival in Ottawa, there were discussions taking place in the regular fora, which included the Deputy Minister’s Operational and Coordination Committee, and bilateral discussions across departments, including transport, to just take stock, basically, and make sure we had situational awareness. And I believe PCO officials would have been informing political officials at their end. We were certainly keeping the Minister apprised in his office. As the weekend progressed and it became clear that the convoy was intending to stay and the original thinking was that they would only stay a couple of days, and then it gradually morphed into an extended period of time, we ramped up the internal discussions and started to have a regular briefing on a daily basis of a small group of Ministers, including the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, quite often the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Intergovernmental affairs as well, and occasionally the Minister of Justice. So these were key Ministers in the context of the protests. And they were -- they -- we started daily briefings of that group at the beginning of the first week after the weekend. And they were supported by regular daily meetings of the DMOCC, Deputy Ministers Operational Committee -- Coordination Committee meetings, as well as other discussions that we were having, and that goes outside of government, but with other officials around the country. So those two groups, that DMOCC group of senior officials, and the Ministerial Briefing Group were the principle for -- in which the ongoing protestor on the country and the situation in Ottawa was discussed.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Sorry.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The standing membership would be Chair of National Security Intelligence Advisor, the Intelligence Agencies, the Canadian Security Establishments, and CSIS, RCMP, Department of -- or Deputy Minister of Transport, Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Deputy Minister of Global Affairs, Deputy Minister of Immigration and Citizenship. I’m going to miss one here. The Chief of Defence staff. Sorry, I’m ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
CBSA. Yes, of course.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Defence.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It’s one of the two primary Intelligence Agencies that does signals intelligence.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
They had multiple purposes. the first was, of course, situational awareness. So there was a briefing at the beginning of it, typically by the Commissioner of the RCMP, and as well by the President of the Canada Border Services Agency on the situation on the ground across the country. That would be supplemented by any information obtained from other sources. If I had had conversations with other officials elsewhere, I would report on that. And then we would discuss, you know, the Federal Government’s ability to deal with the protest, what we were able to mobilize or what we were doing, such as the provision of RCMP officers to support the Ottawa Police Service. And we would also discuss, you know, what Ministers’ messages would be for Canadians, because they were making frequent public appearances.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well the police of jurisdiction in Ottawa were connected to the RCMP and are on a regular basis. The RCMP coordinates because they have jurisdiction over some areas of the city, small areas that are federal. And so they worked very closely together. And of course, the police were, including the OPP, they had an integrated command. They had a National Capital Region Crisis Centre that they were -- that they had staffed, and that was where the RCMP was getting the information. But the OPP was not in these calls, nor was the Ottawa Police. So they were, in a sense -- the Commissioner of the RCMP was, in a sense, the person who collected that information and brought it to the table.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s what you asked for.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So a couple of different points of note there. As a standing matter, there is a committee of federal-provincial Assistant Deputy Ministers which was our colleague, Talal Dakalbab, who is a co-chair of that committee, and it was a committee to discuss crime prevention and policing matters. And it exists on a permanent basis and involves ADMs from across the country, all provinces and territories. So that for a was used for outreach and discussion, information sharing ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct. Crime Prevention and Policing Committee.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
CPPC. So that was one forum. On an ad hoc basis, we convened Deputy Ministers of federal, provincial and territorial governments to discuss the situation with the protests around the country, and that happened more than once because I co- chaired a call and then my colleague, the Deputy Minister of Transport, had calls with Deputy Ministers of Transport departments around the country as the protest went on. I'm sure we’ll come back to that. But there was, generally speaking, Deputy Ministers at calls and meetings and, as well, I reached out to the City of Ottawa early in the week that the protests became entrenched and we stood up calls and discussions amongst officials and also at the Ministerial level involving the city and the province.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So I was reflecting the fact that the federal government was taking -- and the Ministers of the federal government were taking the protests very seriously and were very concerned about how it was evolving. I’ve referred earlier to its kind of organic nature, the uncertainty that prevailed, the sense of, quite frankly, menace that was starting to manifest itself. And given that it was happening on a national basis, Ministers were actively, to the best of my knowledge, talking to counterparts across the country and trying to bring things -- bring powers and plans to the table. It’s important to note, I think, at least for the record, that at no time did anybody start to think about instructing police to do anything, but they were very interested in what the plans of the police were in various parts of the country and as well, you know, how we would mobilize, you know, for border crossings with the Canadian Border Service Agency and local -- local police. So the sense here that, you know, there was a growing set of protests occurring, that it was taxing the abilities of local authorities to manage or to address them and the lack of, at that point in time, a particular sort of coordinated federal-provincial approach, that was what I was referring to.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I didn’t take these minutes and I don’t think that’s accurate. The Chief -- Chief Sloly was saying very openly, almost right from the beginning after the weekend, that he needed more resources. And fairly early on, the RCMP did add resources to help the Ottawa Police and the number was quite a bit lower than Chief Sloly was asking for, so we weren’t entirely clear as to what exactly he needed in terms of the type of resources, and here we’re talking about policing resources. I had already spoken to the City, and here I mean City Manager Steve Kanalokos, and clarified that the federal government had no intention of mobilizing the Canadian Armed Forces to deal with the protests. And so it was not -- it really, I think, is subject of discussion at that time and the issue was more just the scope and nature of the policing resources that the city was calling for.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, Chief Sloly and I think the -- the document does give some clarity to this, was reporting on what the Ottawa Police Service was trying to do to limit and contain the protests and there had been, for instance, a kind of a shack erected in one of the parks, federal parks, which was causing quite a lot of heartburn in that the police were successful in negotiating being taken down. It was storing gas and was actually, I think, a barbecue stand. But that was, as an example, one of the things that, you know, Chief Sloly was reporting on the police having achieved. And you know, he was projecting a sense of intention that, you know, they were going to continue, the Ottawa Police, to the best of their ability with the resources that they had stretched as they were to take steps to interdict and to disrupt the protest. And so this is what that question gets at, is what are your plans in the short run to do that kind of thing. It wasn’t -- it wasn’t -- this is not predicated on that kind of thing. It wasn’t -- it wasn’t this is not predicated on, at that point in time, the expectation that the Ottawa Police would be able to actually bring the protests to an end.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not at all. And I believe Mr. Di Tommaso misinterpreted what she was driving at. I think that it wasn't -- it was never the view of federal officials or ministers that the federal government didn't have some degree of ownership of the protest and some degree of responsibility for dealing with it, as it was a national event. And so it wasn't predicated -- the question I don't believe was predicated on the federal government is looking to not take action. In fact, it was the opposite. I believe that the concern here was that the province was not taking as much action as they might be taking. And I want to caveat that by saying that at no time did I think the OPP was not rising to the -- to deal with the event. Their response was, as far as I was aware and through the Commissioner of the RCMP, what it should be in terms of coming to the city and participating in planning and response. So -- and Mr. Di Tommaso, in my conversation with him, of which there were many, was always assuring me that the OPP was on the job, and this pertained to Ottawa, it pertained to Windsor, it pertained to other places in the province where slow roll protests occurred. So I think, you know, I would interpret this exchange as being largely about whether or not provincial politicians would be coming to the table as federal Ministers were coming to the table, to discuss what tools and tactics they could contribute.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So in the normal course, the OPP does not come to Ottawa to deal with small-scale protests or Canada Day or any other major event. That tends to be coordinated -- that's within the scope and capacity of the Ottawa Police Service and it tends to be coordinated with the RCMP, who have responsibilities in the jurisdiction, as I've said before, for protecting Ministers and federal -- certain federal sites, and also the Parliamentary Protective Service, who have the responsibility of protecting the precinct, the Parliamentary Precinct. So those would be the people who would normally, you know, coordinate around the kinds of events that have occurred in the past, where the scale of the protest is not major. Here, we were talking about a situation where it had clearly gotten out of control and had become illegal. And notwithstanding that the Ottawa Police were being backstopped by the OPP and the RCMP, there was clearly more that needed to be done and ultimately was, to add, you know, rules and powers to address the situation. And this was lurking in the background on all the calls that we had with Ministers is where's Ontario. And the technical point that I think should be made here though is -- and I believe Mr. Di Tommaso touched on this. You know, municipalities are creatures of provinces. And under the law, if the Ottawa Police Service is in need of assistance, technically, they should be asking the OPP first and not the RCMP. That's according to the law. This isn't normal course, and indeed, it wouldn't be the RCMP's -- I believe it would not be the RCMP's position that they wouldn't do anything if Ottawa needed help. Police come to the help of each other all the time. But this issue here of Ottawa turning to the federal government, and asking for RCMP, and not really articulating, you know, how many more OPP they needed I think was also kind of a question that was floating around in the background.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can't tell you the specific law. It's the one that Mr. Di Tommaso cited.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe so.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So bootstrapping, in the same way we did with DMOC and Ministers, from the calls that we had with Ontario and the City, City Manager, City Police, OPP, Mr. Di Tommaso, we convened Ministers and the Mayor and invited provincial Ministers to attend. In the end, only Mr. Di Tommaso attended those calls, but they were called tripartite because they were the City, the Province and the Federal Government. And they were of a very similar nature to the kinds of calls we were having with Ministers in turn with the Federal Government, a discussion of the situation, a discussion of what people's position and concerns were, a discussion of what we knew the plans to be at that stage. And largely, a sharing of information and concerns.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It did not have political representation of Ontario.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think the federal government did, although it was very much collective with the City. The City Manager and I would agree that this needed to be done.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, to a certain extent, I believe it speaks for itself. In my conversations with Mr. Di Tommaso, we were also discussing, of course, what was happening in Windsor and what the plans were for ending the protest there. And it was clear that there was a lot of attention being paid to it at the provincial government level. And but there was -- and part because it was a smaller-scale protest, a much more active set of plans going on to bring it to an end. So in other words, as I understand it, I'm not a police official, you know, there are different skillsets the police have, and one of the skillsets, or one of the types of policing units that was necessary in both Ottawa and Windsor was Public Order Units, who wear, you know, who wear the helmets and carry the batons. These were needed and had to be mobilized from across the province. And so I was aware that that was the plan that was underway, that they were mobilizing to take out the protest in Windsor, and therefore, this would support the comment that I made.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I mentioned it earlier.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So CSIS officials and the CSIS Director was on many calls, Minister calls. In fact, I think it attended a tripartite meeting call.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
This particular meeting? This would have been the -- all the Deputy Ministers, those at least that were available across the country from provinces and territories, plus myself, and I believe Michael Keenan, the Deputy Minister of Transport.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes. Yes. I mean, they're not all Public Safety ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- in various jurisdictions, but that's what their responsibility is. And this -- the purpose of this call was to share, as I've mentioned, information, you know, help people come to terms with what was going on, make plans in their own jurisdictions. And as we know, police of jurisdiction across the country learned very quickly, but there was still the broader issue of why are these protests happening, and what can we do to de-escalate them. So the Director of CSIS had been reporting fairly consistently that in terms of the threshold for monitoring under the CSIS Act, he was not observing any increase in activity or any evidence of plans, and this is, to be clear here, a very high threshold. CSIS -- and my colleague Mr. Rochon can explain this in more detail if you wish -- can only monitor people that they believe to be of certain threats to the security of Canada, and that's a high bar for them. And so they're -- it's not a very large number of people that they're monitoring. It's quite small. It does not, as a general matter, include the population or large elements of the population. They are very targeted in their activities. So in that context, given their targets, they were reporting they were not seeing any activity on the part of those targets. And that's what I was reporting there. And then the simple observation that on the ground in Ottawa, things were kind of chaotic. We didn't have the evidence of planning, weren't hearing about planning, and no sense of extremism in the violent sense, although there was plenty of criminality by that point.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That last line refers to essentially the decision by Ministers not to speak to the protestors.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was the position.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The idea here was to use tools that would not normally be used in addition to the powers that the police have. So that would -- in a sense, it would include enforcement of bylaws and traffic laws, but it would also involve, as a means of deterring people from joining protests or being party to protests, the use of regulations and other provincial authorities, which are related to trucking. So here, you know, as an example, and as you said, Mr. Keenan -- Deputy Minister Keenan can speak to this, you know, we’re talking about deregistering a commercial vehicle, making it unable to be used for, you know, commerce. Not renewing license. Or various other ideas that were being floated around that we could do -- we could use at the Transport level, Transport authority level, that would have some effect. So that’s the general idea.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well certainly what I just spoke of, I would really need to refer to the lists that we developed to be accurate, and there are lists in evidence, which come up or manifest a little bit later. So off the top of my head, I don’t recall any other specific things, other than in the Transport realm.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well the most obvious manifestation of action would have been the Ontario Emergency Order on the 11th of February.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So it’s under the Emergency Management Act and a responsibility of the Department, and then that’s delegated to the Government Operation Centre to coordinate. And the Government Operation Centre, for the record, is a coordination unit, a surveillance and coordination unit. It doesn’t have powers. It doesn’t have authorities. It just works to bring partners to the table. So an RFA is, in essence, a situation in which the provincial capacity to deal with an issue or -- yeah, it’s the provincial and territorial capacity to deal with an issue has been surpassed and they need federal assistance. And the role of the GOC is to discuss the request and to coordinate the response. They occur most frequently in the world of, you know, natural events, fires, floods, but there were many in the context of the pandemic as well. In fact, there were, I think, well over 190 in the last two and a half years or so, which is way, way beyond the normal level. In the context of the protests, there were only three. And some of them can be very routine. So one of -- the first one was for to use a federal space, the Cartier Drill Hall to park police vehicles. And that was just -- that’s a federal land, it needed permission granted. There was also an RFA from the Parliamentary Protective Service at one point in time to make sure that they could be supplied with food and support in the event that they were barricaded in due to police enforcement. So those are two RFAs that occurred. The main RFA that I think is of note is the one that came in from Alberta. And that one did not follow the normal course. The normal coruse for an RFA is for it be flagged by a provincial emergency authority to the GOC, allows for some back and forth about, you know, is this possible? Can we meet this need? And how are we going to respond to this? And, you know, that just smooths and expedites the process. In this case, it came in by letter from an Alberta Minister directly to a Federal Minister, and we had no forewarning of its appearance. So do you want me to further explain that?
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes. So background. This is with respect to the situation in Coutts. The RCMP is the police of jurisdiction and were, you know, faced with a problem of getting the trucks off the border crossing and the highway, and the absence of tow trucks. And in a general sense, it was a feature of these protests across the country, and particularly where they manifested as encampments, that the local tow truck industry would refuse to provide service, ostensibly due to threats to their livelihood. So this letter came in. It, as you said, came a bit out of the blue. It wasn’t hard to understand why the request was being made. And the question became, you know, is this a RFA that we can address. And, you know, two issues surfaced. One was whether we had the resources, and that would be, in effect, the towing equipment of the Armed Forces. You know, they have a base in Edmonton quite a long way from the border, and it has equipment to tow heavy vehicles. However, there's a very limited number of those units I understand, and moreover, they were not of the same type as heavy lift tow trucks and would have, had they been used, likely damaged the trucks they towed. So the general conclusion was that the resources of the Canadian Armed Forces were not appropriate to the task. And of course, we didn't have any other tow trucks elsewhere. The other issue that surfaced was whether the province had exhausted its authorities. And here, I note that the province had a Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, which gave them the power to command tow truck industry, as we did with the Emergencies Act, and that had not been used. So for both of those reasons, we signalled that we would not be meeting this RFA, although we bore it very much in mind. It's when we formulated the orders under the Emergencies Act.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I'll expand a bit. I was party to a call involving an official from the White House and the National Security Intelligence Advisor, and the call was essentially to express the concerns that the U.S. had with the situation at the Windsor -- at the Ambassador Bridge, and also what was going on generally in terms of public order. And that conversation was a situational update. We were -- we explained, and the National Security Intelligence Advisor provided some insight into the thinking in Canada around what we were doing and how we intended to address the protests. The White House official offered support, you know, whatever they could think of, and in particular, say tow trucks from Detroit. So that was that call. There were subsequent calls. She -- that person was the White House person responsible for the Department of Homeland Security.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think it's Elizabeth Sherwood-Randall.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was the only call I was on. There was calls with the Department of Homeland Security officials, and I believe you did one.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Two.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It's a standing committee of Cabinet under the current government, created to provide a forum for discussion on issues associated with its title. And it's chaired by Minister Blair, meets periodically. And generally, is a forum for bringing forward policy and expenditure items in this domain. But it also is a forum for discussion of extraordinary events.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think that's right. I could quibble a bit and say I think one of those meetings was a regular meeting and they talked about the convoy, but I believe there were two ad hocs.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Chief Sloly.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would say that a general matter, Chief Sloly was not trying to pick who would come to his assistance and the assistance of the Ottawa Police Service. And so what I would say, I was just focusing on the Federal Government for the purposes of this meeting. It’s implicit that the provincial police would also be required to assist to meet, I believe the number he was using on or about that time was 1,800 police officers, which is a very large number. So I wasn’t meaning to suggest that the provincial government was not involved at this stage.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Absolutely.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was an extension of the activities that we’d discussed. My conversations, bilateral conversations with the City Manager, multi-lateral conversations involving the Chief of Police, and the OPP, and the RCMP, conversations -- bilateral conversations with the Commissioner of the RCMP, and with Deputy Minister Di Tommaso. Those are the principal points of contact that I had.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
My understanding, both first hand and in conversations with Chief Sloly, and second or third hand through the Commission of the RCMP, was that the situation having come to where it was, in other words, an embedded protest that, you know, had formed a perimeter, in essence, that was hard to enter and to do any enforcement within, that there was considerable debate behind the scenes as to what the strategy would be for enforcement. And kind of a chicken and egg situation, where the various police forces involved, and here I’m not just referring to the OPP and the RCMP, but also other Ontario police who ultimately came to Ottawa to assist, were waiting for a clear plan of action before they mobilized the vast amount of police officers that ultimately came to the city to take action. And that plan, you know, in the early going, was very fragmentary in the sense that it involved some enforcement actions, but it wasn’t a take down the protest plan. And the formulation of the take down the protest plan took time. And in general, I think there were differences, as far as I could tell, of a view about what the right strategy would be, and it took a couple of weeks before the right chemistry in behind the scenes in the Integrated Command Centre was attained. That was my impression.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not really. I mean, this -- in a sense, what I said before is probably the main substance of this and what I knew and understood. And I don’t -- I would not want to lay this at the door of Chief Sloly, to be honest with you. I was hearing that he was very involved and that it was difficult, partly because everybody was stretched so thin, to get to a landing zone on a plan, and that there were disagreements about what the right strategy was. My own first-hand experience with Chief Sloly was quite limited, and to the calls that we had with the City, I had seen him before in another context, but not met him. And I knew he had a strong personality.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I just want to correct the last part.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The RCMP was always willing to come and assist and always wanted to, you know, sort of play a role, and were willing to do so. But to get RCMP officers into Ontario is actually quite a significant logistical issue, because they only have federal police in the province. They don’t have contract people. Now, RCMP is contract police in a number of provinces and territories, which is your regular police, and who are trained and equipped to do public order and enforce the law, and relatively speaking, they had very few federal police in Ontario. So to get RCMP officers into Ottawa required them to be mobilized outside the province, and that requires, you know, some paperwork and agreement and a request of the Minister of the jurisdiction and approval by the Minister of Public Safety. So they were -- they were concerned that they were being pressed to do this without a plan and they wanted the OPP to be first in line to come and help, but they were always willing to help.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
My understanding is essentially reflected in these -- in these comments, which was that when the RCMP had come to a decision about people to bring into the province, they had to go through this administrative process of getting sworn in, which was a decision of the Solicitor-General of Ontario, and as for that purpose then they had to send a detailed list of names and then when that list was sent, it wasn’t coming back -- that’s what I was hearing -- as quickly as, you know, it might otherwise. I can’t really put a time on that, to be honest with you. But it was a material enough issue that, of course, when we did the Orders under the Emergency Act we decided to, you know, exempt the RCMP from that requirement so that they could move a lot of people into the province very quickly.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was an impediment to mobilizing police resources.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, two things, in essence. One, it was my experience two years before when we had the Wet’suwet’en protests and we had the situation in Tyendinaga where the trains were blocked. And my conversations with, again, Deputy Minister Di Tommaso at that time where he was very clearly and strongly expressing the view, and this was based on history through the OPP, that de-escalation is very important to managing a protest, and enforcement can only lead to further trouble. And that was certainly -- seemed very likely in the context of the Wet’suwet’en protests. But I’d say as a more general matter in the context of the conversations that I was having with him he just always held that view, that from a policing point of view -- and I want to say this -- actually, I want to say this very quickly. The police, as I understand them -- and I’ve come to know them fairly well in the three years I’ve been in the job, at least the RCMP, are very concerned about public safety and protecting public safety and keeping the peace. And they will always prefer, given the latitude to do so, to de-escalate and to find ways to stop protests and prevent violence from occurring without taking enforcement action because it’s safer for their members and it’s safer for the public. And so this is, in a sense, the first principle of policing, protect the members and the public from, you know, things escalating. And in that context, you know -- and it’s been mentioned, I think, in testimony before the activities of the Police Liaison Teams is very important.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It may have been an overstatement. It is evident that the protests were being organized in a way that attracted significant numbers of individuals, and it wasn’t, in fact, just the Ambassador Bridge. It was elsewhere in Ontario, ultimately, other ports of entry where convoys manifested. So well is perhaps too strong a word, but there were -- there was definitely organization happening. And I want to be a little bit clear here that, you know, we were not well sited when it came to how people were communicating with each other. They were using different social media platforms and maybe others -- other tools. But we -- in part going back to comments made by my colleague -- weren’t monitoring other than through open source what was going on. So we would -- we would not have felt -- we did not feel well equipped to understand what plans were, and yet things were happening, so that’s the genesis of that comment. And also, just to flag that, you know, we were sensing that this was nationwide because convoys were happening across the country.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, there was quite a list, actually. I’d have a hard time itemizing it, but there were -- the principal places in which disruption was occurring were Windsor, of course. And that happened well after Coutts started being blockaded, and shortly after Coutts started, we had Emerson in the Province of Manitoba. And slow roll and traffic highway blocking protests near the Blue Water Bridge in Ontario, you know, the Peace Bridge in Niagara and some sense that this -- something could happen in Cornwall. In -- later on in British Columbia, we had the Pacific Highway convoy. So those would be the principal ones. Every day in our calls with Ministers, CBSA would be reporting across a whole set of ports of entry what they were observing, and they had -- they had taken steps to better equip themselves to see what was going on and to talk to local police authorities to see if it could all be met, could be managed that if a trucking or a convoy manifested itself, it could be directed away from the port of entry and couldn't install itself in the port, or on the bridge, or whatever the case may be.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, the federal government was as a group. We were all conscious that this was not something which limited to Ottawa. Ottawa is the most extreme example. But the general impression we had was that what had begun as a protest about vaccine mandates had become something more than that and was attracting various -- people from various -- with various issues and causes and had become kind of a popular thing. And we were seeing in other countries, by the way, too.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yeah, there were convoys in New Zealand with Canada flags, which were just essentially emulating the protest.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yeah.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, to begin with, I wouldn't call it a Cabinet Committee as such.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Cabinet committees, in the -- I guess in the normal course are standing committees to deal with various, you know, policy and -- policy matters. The Incident Response Group is an ad hoc committee that the Prime Minister convenes as and when required, and so it doesn't have regular meetings, and indeed, it only meets when something extraordinary is happening.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Marcel Beaudin.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So I've mentioned earlier that the federal government, to the best of my knowledge, had made a decision not to engage formally the leaders or the protesters in -- you know, just allowing them to represent their views. And that was, as far as I was aware, an issue of principle and rooted in a sense that it was hard to know who to engage and also what that engagement would lead to. And there was definitely no desire to get into discussions around the Federal Public Health Policy, which was one of the original reasons the protests occurred. As time passed, the notion of engagement kind of morphed into more of what I've already mentioned as being kind of a police tactic and a potentially useful one. So shortly -- the day before, in fact, this meeting occurred, we were -- we Deputy Ministers were meeting and agreed that we would pursue any ideas we could come up with from our list, which you have I think attached to this document, and see what it turned up by way of possible decisions, possible actions for the federal government. So I had reached out, in fact, on the morning of this day to Marcel Beaudin, who had been identified to me by the -- no, by Mario Di Tommaso and echoed by the Commissioner, Commissioner Lucki, that he would be the right person to talk to. And we had a general conversation around, you know, the role of PLTs and de-escalation, and which was very educational for me. And what I took from that conversation was that there was some possibility that if they could identify appropriate interlocutors, and he said that they knew of six people that they could talk to who were leaders of a sort within the protest, and offer an opportunity for them to be heard, that this would have the effect of allowing people to achieve something, and some success, and feel that their objectives had been achieved and therefore leave. And this is where the statistics come up is that, you know, 80 percent of the protesters -- at particularly 2 and 2-and-a-half weeks into the protest, you know, where they'd been sitting on the streets of Ottawa in freezing weather were probably likely to go if they had the right offer. And so we were talking about that possibility. And it was really at that point in time, not about engagement in the way that it had been about engagement before. It was more in the context of engagement as a steppingstone to enforcement, because it was very clear by the 10th of February that the RCMP, the OPP and the Ottawa Police Service were beginning to come together on a plan, and enforcement was only a matter of time. And so in the background, of course, was this question which I think was very material in the overall decision to invoke the act of what would that enforcement engender by way of reaction. And we had strong concerns, as Mr. Rochon has mentioned, about, you know, lone wolves, and people who'd been attracted to the protest that could act out in a violent way. So there was a virtue to de-escalation in this context.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Shrink it.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, it flowed directly from what I've just spoken about. In the context of coming up with options for federal government action, at a point in time when the protests were in Ottawa in particular, but just nationwide given the slow roll convoys manifesting all over the place, what could we do that would help. And so with the aid of Inspector Beaudin, I drafted a very short document. It's attached to the minutes of one of these IRG meetings. And, you know, brought it forward for consideration. Essentially, it was the notion that the federal government would acknowledge the desire to meet and offer to do so at a later time, away from the protest, on the basis that a protester would denounce the protest and leave. So it was essentially a, you know, a bargain. And it was positioned to be just a hearing of protester's views and not any discussion of what the federal government would do or could do. There was at -- it happened very quickly. We did it over a day or so and didn't have time to do anything other than consult with sort of key authorities, which would have been the RCMP and the OPP and colleagues at PCO, who obviously were leading the overall effort. It could have been consulted more, it could have been, you know, talked about, but it was raced forward to the Cabinet table two days after this conversation occurred.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
When I talked to Inspector Beaudin, I was accompanied by a PCO official, Jeff Hutchinson, and I included him in the call because I wanted PCO to be fully plugged in to what we were -- what I was doing.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Observer.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe that Commissioner Lucki's concerns were essentially (a), in the issue of, you know, if this came forward to a Cabinet table and was decided upon would it constitute some kind of direction to police to do it, and, of course police want to maintain operational independence and maximum flexibility. So it -- she did not want it to be construed in that fashion. She may also have had concerns -- she didn't express them to me -- about how it played out. So were it to have been used as a strategy and failed, would it -- would the RCMP or the OPP, PLTs, the Police Liaison Teams be held accountable for that in some way.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's a good way to put it.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe there is virtue in clarifying the RCMP Act on this basis. Recent experience in other contexts has led me to think that too.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In other contexts.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The discussions that were going on with respect to developments in Nova Scotia and the role of Minister Blair and ultimately a decision to ban assault rifles. It engendered a lot of questions about the communications between the Ministers and the police.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I had support from colleagues to bring it to the Cabinet table for discussion. I couldn't tell you about the specific, you know, views in terms of whether they thought it was a good or bad idea. It was just in the options sent.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, Minister Mendocino was aware that I was working on this idea, as it mentioned, the day before in the context of the IRG meeting. He had not seen the proposal, and as I say, it came together really very quickly, and I only had time to solicit the news of -- and it wasn't the Ontario government. It was the OPP, I believe. And just to make sure that nobody had any objections to what it said, or put on -- you know, put forward. So he would have just had seen it in terms of paper, and he would have, I think felt -- feel uncomfortable that he had not had an opportunity to contribute to the drafting of it.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I'm pretty sure. I'd have to check the emails, but I wasn't -- I mean, I was certainly conveying to Mr. Di Tommaso that this is something that we were considering. And there was a parallel event, I think I should note it for the record. So he knew that I was talking to Marcel Beaudin. He had given me the name. And he knew that, you know, the general idea of what I was trying to bring forward. On the day of Friday, the 11th, Ontario did their Emergency Order, which I didn't know about. He called me in the morning and informed me. And then later in the day he called me and he said that they were planning to do enforcement over the weekend on the Windsor bridge, the Ambassador Bridge, and that as a steppingstone to that enforcement, they were going to adopt this idea of offering a meeting, and that Minister Jones, Sylvia Jones was interested in making that offer, and would the federal government join the Ontario government in making that offer. And I signalled that that was not possible. We had yet to discuss engagement at the federal level. And so, you know, there was no way on an hour's notice that he was going to get a decision to sign on. But he sent me a draft letter that -- which is referred to here, that they were going to use with the protesters, the OPP was going to use with the protesters on the Ambassador Bridge. So it was a kind of a parallel exercise, which was really an independent exercise of the Ontario government, but in a very similar way to what was put forward to the Cabinet table the next day.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Because they were going to do it that evening.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I had no awareness of it until it was fait accompli, when the City Manager, Steve Kanellakos called me and said, "We've made a deal with a representative -- somebody ostensibly representing the protesters to move these trucks and the Mayor is sending a letter."
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right. No coordination at all.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was not taken up.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was discussed, not taken up.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I only know what Inspector Beaudin was telling me, which was that he believed it was worthy of consideration and, you know, given the sense he has of the behaviour of protests, that it might have effect. If I were to push it, I would say I had the feeling that it was a very low order of probability that it would have had a material effect, because the protestors had been in Ottawa in a determined way for an extended period of time. And, you know, I think the general view here is just it’s part of the toolkit of policing and you want to try and discourage people from staying at a protest if enforcement is going to occur, because it’s going to get rough.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yeah, I could go back a day, maybe, to the 10th.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Okay. So the Emergencies Act has a history in discussions and rooted in the pandemic, where at one point in the pandemic, the Federal Government conducted consultations on whether the Emergencies Act would be a useful tool to help address the pandemic. At the time, it was determined that that was not the case. So it was always sort of in the back of people’s minds. And it came up in meetings along the way as something that we should bear in mind. Serious consideration of the use of the Emergencies Act was -- began in the latter part of the week of February 6th or 7th and then became, you know, a matter for discussion and decision after that.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
All departments involved in this -- in these -- in managing the protests were asked for ideas that would provide additional tools to police to -- and generally, to deter protests and cause them to de-escalate. So Public Safety, we were using the information that we’d gained from our regular consultations and our calls with federal and provincial colleagues. So an issue, for instance, of note there is the use of tow trucks. Other parts of the Public Safety portfolio, such as the RCMP provide independent views in terms of what might be added to an Emergency Measure Order -- Emergencies Act order, and other departments did as well.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well we were having a discussion around the pros and cons of using the Emergencies Act, and one of the concerns that I had at the time was of the potential for serious violence. So in fact, one of the reasons to invoke the Act was also a concern, in terms of what happens when you invoke it? And if it were to lead people to become violent, then that would be, you know, an undesirable outcome. So that was just one of the many considerations we were discussing.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Can I get the time stamp on that email, please?
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Okay. So I believe that I underestimated the impact of the Emergencies Act that in aggregate, the measures that it contained had material benefit. And this was not -- this was me reacting to what I’d seen drafted and feeling that I hadn’t really got a handle on how it would be implemented, and also me saying, you know, to Mr. Rochon, you’re in these technical briefings and you’re representing Minister Mendicino and you’ve got to talk to the elements of this portfolio that are going to be operationalizing these powers.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
We do technical briefs a lot, particularly when we table legislation.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I saw pros and cons.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, it's judgment only because the police have attested to the value of the Act in terms of getting the protests to disperse, and particularly in Ottawa, but generally speaking, there was within two weeks very little manifestation of those kinds of protests around the country. So I think it's just -- it's essentially on the basis of the fact that others have come forward to say that this was a tool that they, in the end, used and found useful.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yeah, absolutely.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I'm going to infer that, you know, what it represents is the view that, you know, we had been actively engaged for over two weeks with a variety of concerned parties, including police of jurisdiction, the RCMP, federal, provincial officials. And we were not on the face of it asking the question should we invoke the Emergencies Act. We were asking what tools do you need? What are you facing in terms of challenges? How can we work together to overcome these challenges? And so we deemed that to be consultation on the -- but what was ultimately the decision to invoke the Act, because this was about the substance of that decision.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not in its detail, but, yes, I would have talked to him, and I do accept that I would have said to him it's on the table.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, again, more by way of inference than by, you know, clear memory, I would say I was conveying to him that -- I would have been -- let me back up and say I would have been trying to be a good colleague with a provincial colleague, but not at the expense of betraying any federal decisions or, you know, kind of thinking in a political sense. I would just have been trying to keep him apprised of the state of affairs. And I would have said to him, I believe, that, you know, there are pros and cons of invoking the Act, because that was my view. And one of the cons, which had been noted in other discussions, was the fact that the penalties under the Emergencies Act are not very big. It's, like, $5,000 on indictment, 6 months in jail. Whereas, the Ontario order, which was put out on the Friday, contained very significant penalties, $100,000. And so as a form of deterrence to anybody thinking of joining a protest, it was clearly a more -- a substantive tool, but that wasn't the only -- that was really just one of a number of considerations.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
To the penalties, yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not aware.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I can't really give you the blow-by-blow. This would have been a normal conversation to touch base on what's the status of things? Where's enforcement? How are things going with the OPP? And I would have been -- because on that morning, I believe, the Prime Minister held the first Minister's call to formally consult on the invocation of the Act. And I was aware that that was going to take place. And I didn't want to do anything that would get in the way of that conversation. So I was not in a position, as I've said before, to convey anything about what the state of federal thinking was at that time.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I think in the back of my mind was the grounds for invoking the Act, and that's a high bar, which Ministers decided was met. And in that context, serious violence was an important element. There was economic impacts as well, but particularly from a Public Safety point of view, the uncertainty and risk of serious violence was an important consideration. And so given that that was the reason for invoking the Act, I thought it should be the reason for considering revoking it.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Same grounds.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I’d just like to do a technical clarification on “intel”, if I may ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- for the record, because it’s used in many different ways. And when we spoke about it earlier today, I conveyed the impression that it was all classified and very, you know, kind of secretive, and in fact, intel is a vast spectrum of things. And one of the issues that has surfaced in this context and more generally, frankly, is the compilation of intelligence in the general sense from not just, you know, use of our intelligence agencies, but from open sources, is a real challenge, and it’s one that we are grappling with today. And so you know, intelligence is something that is -- was underneath the rationale for invoking the Act, was the lack of good intel as to what was going on. And when I say that, I don’t mean top secret. I mean a compilation of information from any possible source.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Any information about the plans and intentions of protestors around the country.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It may have been both. It was certainly in the context of having a clear line of sight. And when I say plans and intentions, I mean to convoys and slow rolls and obstructing, you know, critical infrastructure. I don’t mean the causes that they were espousing. That was quite clear.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Until just recently, yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Let’s say I learned on the job.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not entirely.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In the world of finance, there were criminal issues.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Anti-money laundering, securities crimes, those kinds of things.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Reasonable grounds to suspect, yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would not agree.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would say it’s reasonable grounds to suspect.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don’t understand where -- what you’re trying to get at here.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would have gone the other way.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would have put it the other way, so this just shows what I know.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
If you’re going to suspect something, you’re going to have a particular act in mind.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I’m a little concerned about getting into a discussion about legal terminology on which I’m not an expert.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
When CSIS gets a warrant, they have to bring a case to a Judge, a federal Judge.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So there’s going to be more than just reasonable grounds in that case.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Vigneault.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was clear to me, and I believe it was clear to Ministers.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can’t say with that with authority, however.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That would be correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
To the best of my knowledge, no.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, that is not right. CSIS -- and, you know, Director Vigneault will be here to speak for himself. CSIS assessed, according to their standards, under their Act. Nobody else was assessing under the standards, under the CSIS Act. You asked me, did they tell anybody that it met a standard, they weren’t -- they wouldn’t use the CSIS Act, that wouldn’t be their tool. They would be looking at broader national security issues.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So let me explain. Nobody bringing advice to the table, other than CSIS, is assessing that -- against that threat, nobody advising the Cabinet. The Cabinet is making that decision. And their interpretation of the law is what governs here, and the advice they get. And their decision was, evidently, that the threshold was met.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
And indeed, they had a lot of evidence.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
They weren’t asked.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Among others.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I couldn’t answer that question.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I couldn’t answer that question, I’m sorry.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was his former job, yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Minister Blair didn’t tell me. It came up in discussions ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- at the officials’ level, and then it came up in discussions at the Ministerial level.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Presumably. I don’t have a date on this document, so I’m not really sure where it falls in the overall scheme of things.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I -- really, I wasn’t the spokesperson for Public Safety; my colleague may be able to answer it.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
You’re welcome.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yeah.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well done.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe the Committee meeting was on the 8th but ---
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Sure.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don't believe that's true.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would not agree.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's not a question that I can answer, other than to say that there was extensive involvement at the federal officials and political level, right from the start. So when the Prime Minister chose to convene the IRG is a decision that you should ask either him or colleagues of PCO about.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
To the best of my knowledge, that is true.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, that’s correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s my understanding.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s what I had heard.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I heard concerns about the ability of the OPS to manage the situation. Definitely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Technically speaking. But I want to be clear on this point. This is not a situation in which you go by the book.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was a major impediment.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
You can put the two points together. I’m not sure that I was -- I can testify in any direct way that that was the case. I mean, two things seem to be facts that I was hearing.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don’t know that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
And so from your perspective, this information was not enough to raise any kind of alarm bells that this was going to be the three-week occupation that we ultimately saw here in Ottawa; correct?
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would believe so, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That would be my understanding.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe so.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No alarm bells.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not with me.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That may be too broad a statement. There's certainly the aspect of having the trucks involved and being used to essentially occupy physical spaces was the unprecedented part.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, in terms of behaviour, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is fair.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, there was quite a bit of honking on the highway, but I -- we did not assume that they would do anything other than peacefully protest.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, indeed.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That would be true.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe it was shared with OPS because there was a question about who would -- if it were actually approved, how it would be managed, and I think OPS was alerted that their PLTs, their teams would be perhaps delivery agents.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I didn’t consult OPS.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would infer that, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree with you that we were in unprecedented and unanticipated circumstances, absolutely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
They were decided to be and adjudicated to be a national security threat, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I was very concerned about the possibility of physical and serious violence.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, it was not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Agreed.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think there’s a confluence of events here. Obviously, the unprecedented nature of these protests did lead us into a situation where more resources were required. I don’t know if that equates to chronically under- resourcing Police because if we were better prepared and is as they were in other cities they didn’t need more officers.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It wasn’t anticipated and it happened before they could mobilize.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Exactly.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don’t know the details of that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would be inclined to believe that the RCMP would have made a commitment to support whatever action would be taken.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Just a commitment.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Absolutely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In the physical sense I believe that’s true. In the economic sense, not as much.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Agreed.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, we’ve been shown evidence to that effect. I didn’t have that issue with my colleague.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is always the preferred strategy.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The ministers we were briefing wanted the situation to be resolved. There is no question about that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Absolutely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Absolutely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, absolutely.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That would be fair.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, these would be speaking points for the Commissioner. I would not have received her speaking points.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, it refreshes my memory.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can check against delivery but I believe she did.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I'd like to clarify that point. There is a very high noise to signal ratio in social media. So there's a challenge inherently in monitoring all the channels that people use to communicate, to the extent that they're accessible. And there are many that are not, they're encrypted. So it would be, I think, a mistake to say that the police or any institution have necessarily all the capabilities they need to monitor what is going on in the electronic world. And then beyond that, it's about assessing it and trying to make sure that, you know, what we understand to be the case is either likely to be or is the case, and that assessment process is also very challenging. So I think there's a lot of inherent challenges here.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
There was no active consideration at that time.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was not under active consideration at that point in time.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I did.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, I think that's putting it too linearly. I think the -- a combination of factors led it to become more actively considered, including the borders being blockaded, the protracted protest in Ottawa and the, you know, the threats of personal and economic harm.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It had to do with blocking ports and gateways, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
There was always going to be a police action in Ottawa. So ---
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- I think you are neglecting the fact that that was mobilizing, albeit in a very incremental way.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The Emergencies Act is generally considered to be a tool of last resort, under very exigent circumstances, urgent time limited. So there were many other tools in the toolkit. Indeed, Ontario used one. And, you know, it was not used until quite a bit later in time. So I would say, you know, we were all conscious of it as being a tool, but in the minds of those who were, you know, sort of discussing it with counterparts, there were other tools as well.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
There’s a spelling mistake in there just for the record, the “were” in the second sentence. No, this is a composite statement based on all the consultations we undertook with officials as well as with police.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
What I was saying in this witness summary, and what I would say to you, is they were – no police agency was asked about the Act itself. They were always asked “Do you need more tools”?
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
RCMP, OPP, OPS.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, it would have been guided by the RCMP.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would not have first hand knowledge of this. The RCMP was our primary interface as a department and in the discussions that we were having.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Insofar as it pertains to the OPP.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Law enforcement here could also represent officials in provincial government.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No direct knowledge.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree. Indeed as heard, I assumed they were.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is true, they have different jurisdictions but they work very closely together.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do not.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The consultations were -- in the broader form, were often required and there have been notes to that effect; and, again, they weren’t about the Act, they were about the tools. And then the formal consultations were also recorded and reported to Parliament.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, I’m not aware.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not police, other than the RCMP.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Actually, if I may, I’ll correct that answer. Because I did have calls with Chief Sloly on which Commissioner Carrique was also participating. So I would say I had first hand evidence from Chief Sloly that he needed more tools as well.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
They are RCMP; one’s a civilian member, the other is a regular member.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do not recall seeing this document.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is my understanding.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
And for the record, that is what I assumed the RCMP would have consulted with colleagues about.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Under the circumstances I wouldn’t say it was unusual.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It is.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s a very open-ended question. I don’t think my opinion is here or there. I would observe however, and this is why I raised it this morning, that that has become an issue in a number of domains where people have asked what’s the division between requests for information and advice which this I think constitutes versus what are, you know, versus what are, you know, sort of interference or, you know, engagement in police operations. And so I’m – I would certainly agree with the proposal that that could be clarified.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
At one in the morning? It probably wouldn’t matter.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, I think it would have made sense for her to copy me; she copied her subordinates.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In all likelihood, it would not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was perceived to largely be a request for tow trucks.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I have.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can say quite authoritatively, I believe it was not assumed to be law enforcement, because everybody understood the Article 9 process very well. It’s been used many times over the years. So this was inferred to be Armed Forces personnel.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do not.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Actually, what happened was that we evaluated the initial request and determined that the CAF equipment would not be appropriate. And as this indicates, it was not my understanding that there was another dimension to the personnel request. However, we did not formally notify Alberta that the RFA would be turned down on the basis of the fact that we were still having discussions about the federal toolkit and ultimately addressed the tow truck issue via the Emergencies Act.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
For the reasons I just explained.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
We determined that the full suite of provincial tools had not been exhausted, which is sort of a first principle of the RFA.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I see that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe so. I haven't seen the attachment, but I believe so.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I was.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
And I told a provincial official, though I cannot remember who that was.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
A deputy minister called me and asked if we were going to approve it sometime within 24 to 48 hours of the original request, and I said my expectation is we were not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It had powers to address the circumstance, including compelling tow truck drivers.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was not contemplated and indeed it was done under the Bank Act. So that’s a federal statute.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is fair.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not exclusively.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not exclusively though. To be clear, not exclusively. The RCMP had agreed to come with resources that they had to hand to help, and there was some confusion around how they were counting heads, and whether those people were at the disposition of the OPS or whether they were RCMP -- under RCMP control and potentially deployable.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
So there's some confusion about that. But at all times, there was an expectation that the OPP would come as well.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is the RCMP's position, as I understand it.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not to that extent. No, the RCMP's position was that they could provide some help, but to the extent that more help was required, the Ottawa Police should be asking the OPP.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don't agree with that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I did.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is my understanding.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
This is the first time I've seen the legislation. So I was operating on the basis of what I understood the case to be. But I think I would not agree with the way you put it. As I understood it, in the circumstances we faced, the RCMP was willing to help and did not stand on principle as to whether they were the first or the second asked. They felt the OPP was what the Ottawa Police Service should be asking. So ---
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- but they were not holding off in responding because the OPS hadn't asked the OPP.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Technically, yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I understood it to be, and you've just obviously improved my understanding, that that was what the law required. The circumstances drove a different set of considerations.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The framework tends to operate through the basis of provinces and territories as being the primary authority.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe so.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think there is a high degree of virtue in interoperability and interconnectedness across the -- all of the first responders. Insofar as we are talking about -- and ultimately, requests for assistance, I believe there is a chain of authority that has to be worked through and shouldn't be worked around.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would be inclined to agree that it is as critical infrastructure; however, I do want to clarify the point that we weren't operating in large measure in invoking the Emergencies Act under the context that that strategic -- that framework speaks to. That framework speaks to emergencies other than law enforcement emergencies.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I'm -- it's obviously been some time since I've looked at it, but I'm conveying to you my understanding here that we did not treat -- in general, we did not treat the protests as an emergency management issue, and that the framework that we have designed and agreed with the provinces and territories to deploy does not typically apply to issues of public security ---
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
--- in defence of law enforcement. It deals with natural disasters and the like.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, I -- if I was aware, I'd forgotten.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree to the more general statement that it's important that federal and provincial Ministers take lessons learned from -- as it pertains to protecting critical infrastructure.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is true.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
All right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is my recollection.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is my recollection.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don't have any direct knowledge of that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I know there was a call that was organized for Minister Blair, who was Public Safety Minister at the time, with his counterparts to have a discussion about the potential utility of the Emergencies Act.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not aware.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not in that specific sense.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
But I was aware that they were given an opportunity to respond.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That I don't -- that's the specifics of it. I don't know that.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, it was a call.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That is correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Had the invocation of the Act been a subject of active discussion, yes, but it wasn't.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In the time I did the meeting, it was not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That's correct.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, it was.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can not say for certainty that any of them knew.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I'm not sure that they did.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can’t say for sure.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Indeed. Had they not known.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I’ll take your word for it.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I’m not familiar with it.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, I have nothing to do with it.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Oh, I’ve heard of it, but I didn’t know what it does.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Certainly how it appears.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It’s what I observe.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, they did not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Upon the vote.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Not aware.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe that the invocation of the Act provided very useful tools to law enforcement.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well I’m not in a position to render an opinion on that, I don’t think. I would only observe, as I’ve observed already, that upon the invocation of the Act and the use of those tools, the protests diminished and stopped, and that goes beyond useful.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I acknowledged that was perhaps an under estimate on my part.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I was encouraging my colleague, for the purposes of doing technical briefings, to try to be more specific and clear.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
The ideas were already on the table, in the sense of the drafting of the various orders and measures. The issue here was how they were explained.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
In Ontario, I would say they had.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It has -- it was reported to Ministers, and I was present at this time, that that was an important element and was used.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do not.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No first-hand knowledge.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well that’s a hypothetical. In light of my observation that the protests were significantly de-escalated and stopped, I think deterrence was a major factor.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was its intent.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That was its intent.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It’s hard to observe it in the ---
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Okay. You could call it speculation. I would call it conclusion.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
What I was trying to convey there is that to the point made by one of your colleagues minutes ago, there was -- there were expressions of points of view that there was insufficient consultation on the invocation of the Act.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That’s my understanding.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
We tabled an extensive report. Right.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes, I do.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am not aware that we consulted with First Nations on matters associated with law enforcement in urban areas or at border points.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Of the territory?
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Oh, sorry, excuse me. I am not aware.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Only superficially familiar.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can. At public safety at the current time there is a very significant engagement process going on with First Nations on the issue of -- on two issues. One on enlarging the support for policing that’s provided through a Grants & Contributions Program called the “First Nations & Inuit Policing Program”. And the other part, more significant I would say, is on making policing -- drafting legislation, co-developing legislation to make policing an essential service. That engagement process has been going on since the spring and has resulted in -- or involved extensive consultation across the country by the Minister and officials and does relate in its ultimate goal in ensuring that First Nations are the beneficiaries of policing services on an equal basis to other areas of the -- or parts of the country. And therefore by extension, would be very much more engaged in the management of public order events.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, what I just described I think would be consistent with UNDRIP. And in the convoy situation, my consultations were with federal, provincial and territorial officials.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It should not be.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don’t believe I can answer that question.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Insofar as it becomes a matter of interpretation of UNDRIP, I believe Justice officials would be the first person -- the first people to ask.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do. And for the record, when I answered the question by the person prior, it was on my own involvement.
-
Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That sounds correct.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
That would be my understanding.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Okay.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, I can only be more specific, I believe, which is to say on the eve of enforcement in Ottawa -- we knew that enforcement was challenging and we knew there had been some very significant negative reactions to attempts at enforcement, such that the police were deterred from doing so to any great extent until they mobilized enough of a critical mass of resources. But even on the eve of that enforcement action, after the Emergencies Act was invoked, we had no awareness as to what was in the trucks or how people who were in the trucks would react to an enforcement action. So you could call that an intelligence gap or just a lack of information, but we did not have a line of sight as to what would happen.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I don’t believe I'm at liberty to discuss what the cabinet ministers said. I think it's plausible to think that was in their minds.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
As I have just tried to express, yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would agree.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I am.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I believe them to be true. And in a more general sense, I will underline a point made by my colleague that this is a evolving situation, and a focus on violent extremism has shifted from coming from abroad to domestic. And in the context in which we are -- and I've said this –- underequipped and indeed not empowered to do the work that we need to do to pay attention to what people’s intention are. I would note that since 2014 there has been significant domestic violent extremism. I believe the numbers are 26 people killed and 40 injured in over a dozen attacks, often by lone wolf actors with no prior indication that they would do so. So this is a very serious concern.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes. And I would also add while these were clear and obvious manifestations of interference with people’s ability to cross the border and commerce, there were many other slow roll convoys in other places in the country and so it was also a consideration that they might manifest at other ports of entry or indeed elsewhere and interfere with, as they say, people’s lives.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Yes.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I can.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
We heard about threats. I don’t believe they ever manifested as blockades on a railway line. But two years ago, in 2020 in February we experienced that occurrence and it was a very significant event from an economic point of view.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I think it accurately reflects the views of officials in the government when the Emergencies Act was invoked.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, in specific terms. I mean, we talked often, several times a day.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I do.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, more or less as expressed by the City Manager there that they wanted to keep the ICC which they just agreed to, not that long before, and its ability to execute on a plan going. And they worried that that would be set back. They were ready to go on the 16th of February. So that was the message and I undertook to talk to Steve Kanellakos and his answer was as she represents it, that the City was not going to get an interim chief. They were going to go with Acting Chief Bell.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Well, sometime in that timeline, I would say.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I would have said to him, "I'm hearing from probably just directly the Commissioner that there are concerns about, you know, changing up the guard here in Ottawa. What's your plan?" I would have asked him the question.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
I kind of paraphrased by this message.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
It was -- it is my understanding that what the Ottawa Police Board was doing was working to find an interim chief, and the police boards by their nature are independent from the municipal government, although they're chaired by a councillor. And it had not been known that they were doing that to anybody. And that, you know, when it surfaced as an issue, it caused some consternation at the senior level in the City government. And then as an observational point, I would only say that within a couple of days I believe there was a City Council meeting in which the Chair of the Police Board was forced to resign.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Only tangentially.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, he didn't.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
No, he just said the Mayor is upset.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Sorry, this is the domain of Mr. Di Tommaso, so -- which I'm really very unfamiliar. I don't understand or have deep knowledge of the operation of local police governance.
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Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister (GC-PS)
Thank you, Commissioner.