Wayne Mackay
Wayne Mackay spoke 45 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Merci beaucoup.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Bonjour et bienvenue. My name is, as the Commissioner just pointed out, is Wayne MacKay, and I’m the Moderator for your session, and have the unenviable task of keeping people in -- within limits, in spite of all the good things you have to say. So the panel will address the roles played by three different things in the course of this: Social media in its various forms, which we’ll address first; mis- and disinformation, and I think malinformation is another term they’ve used; and thirdly, ideologically motivated violent extremism, and in particular, how all of these relate to the context of protest generally, and somewhat more specifically in the issues here. The diverse and impressive panel members to my left are -- I’ll just identify them and give them a very brief introduction: Dax D’Orazio, immediate left, the Skelton-Clark Postdoctoral Fellow, Department of Political Science, Queen’s University, and Research Affiliate Centre for Constitutional Studies, University of Alberta. And then next to him, Jon Penny, Associate Professor, Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, and Research Fellow with the Citizen’s Lab at the University of Toronto. And then Emily Laidlaw, Canada Research Chair in Cybersecurity Law, and Associate Professor, University of Calgary Law School. And next to her, David Morin, UNESCO co-Chair in Prevention of Radicalization and Violent Extremism, and full Professor in the Faculty of Arts and Humanities at the University of Sherbrooke. And last but not least, Vivek Venkatesh, UNESCO co-Chair in Prevention of Radicalism and Violent Extremism, who is also a full Professor at the Faculty of Fine Arts at Concordia University. So that is our impressive expert panel. Just very quickly, I’m just going to say a couple of words about process. Our objective as a panel is to explore these complex issues in a way that hopefully assists the Commission and the Commissioner, but also informs the broader public. And to pursue this, I will raise some general questions to explore, and then call upon either specific panel members or sometimes open it up to the panel. For the benefit of translators and the record, each member should identify themselves, or actually mostly I will do that; I will call on you and do my best to remember to identify your names so you’re on the record. We’re also reminded of the competing needs to be succinct and fall within our time limits, but on the other hand, speak slowly, in terms of kindness to the translators and the public record. And speaking for myself, that’s something we all have to focus on. I will be -- as Moderator, occasionally intervene if I feel we’ve gone beyond the proposed times. So with those relatively minimal introductions, I’m ready to start off, unless anybody has any questions. All right. So the first topic is social media; and, in particular, its impact on protests and those kinds of things, and the kinds of broad questions that I have in mind to be addressed on that topic is; how has social media changed the public discourse, stated very briefly; how has it impacted activism and protest; how has it impacted protest like the ones relevant to this Commission, and perhaps one that not -- hadn’t given a lot of thought to, but does it matter who is protesting in terms of what kind of social media they’re listening to. So with those very board questions, and lots of other things, I’ll turn it over to Professor D’Orazio to start us off.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
First of all, congratulations for coming in under time. I appreciate that. And I just had one additional though just in the minutes or so you have left.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
The question of who is in the protest, does that change what kind of social media they would have access to? Because it strikes me that many protests, including the convoy one, would have a variety of people, truckers, perhaps extremist groups, others, and does it make a difference who makes up the protest in terms of what kind of social media they’re likely to use? That’s a big question, so if you want to pass other panelists at some point, you’re welcome to do that, too.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Thank you very much. So moving to the next sub-issue here, the existing regulation of social media or lack thereof, perhaps in some cases, and one perhaps bit more focused question, the possible impact of increased restrictions on protest or particularly disadvantaged or marginalized groups in society such as indigenous people as kind of a flip side of that. So with that, I’ll turn that over to Professor Penny to take the floor.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you very much. And the next issue we’re going to -- the last in the social media part, is what changes or improvements are perhaps under exploration and maybe about to happen to improve some of the gaps in the existing structure that Professor Penny just talked about. And Professor Laidlaw is going to take the lead on that.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
I think that's a good point. Perhaps -- and I'm just realising I haven't followed me rule of whether I should introduce -- say Wayne MacKay every time I do this. But anyway, Wayne MacKay, Moderator. Can we switch topics, staying with Professor Laidlaw, but move to the topic she's already touched on of misinformation and disinformation, with two fairly targeted kind of roles, before we'll open it up to the panel for a broader discussion on this area, and that is the definition of the terms; and secondly, although you've touched on some of that, the regulations. So if you could start us off briefly on that, and then I'll open it up to the panel for the rest of this issue.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay, thank you very much. So we'll now open it up to the panel in a moment. Professor Laidlaw has already raised a couple of questions. There's a couple I will add among those that you can discuss. One is the scale of the problem or how much harm is caused by misinformation and disinformation, is a broad question. And a second, which was actually submitted, is the question of whether the definitions on misinformation, disinformation apply to the government as individuals and, if so, in what way? So with those kind of broad questions, I’ll open it up to the panel and if somebody just gives me a signal, I’ll recognize you. Professor Morin.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Professor Venkatesh?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Wayne MacKay, moderator. Just before we move to somebody else, I was struck by your term about coordinated inauthentic behaviour. How do you describe inauthentic? It's kind of like that line between normal and abnormal. What's authentic and what's inauthentic?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Great. All right. Moderator MacKay again. I open it up to any other comments. We have about five minutes or so left before we move to the next topic. Yes, Professor Laidlaw.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Professor D'Orazio?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Professor Penny, we've got about two minutes left.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Moderator MacKay again. Excellent panel and discussion on this; it could go on much longer, but I want to move on to our next interesting topic, and pretty well on time at this point, which is the topic of ideologically motivated violent extremism; and, in particular, the role that that plays in society generally and in particular in relation to protest. And just some of the broad questions to consider when Professor Morin kicks us off on this in a moment, is the source of that term, “Ideologically motivated violent extremism,” some examples, perhaps; and, in particular, its relevance to the issues at hand. So that with in mind, Professor Morin, the floor is yours.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Getting close.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you. But I’m just going to ask one question and either -- I’m going to turn over to Professor Venkatesh after that. Either one of you or both of you might be able to answer this. As you probably noticed lawyers are a bit obsessed with definitions, and one of the questions I have in the term itself, how do you -- how does one define ideological, in terms of the, you know, ideologically motivated violent extremism, or even violence? Although I know that could be a whole thing on that, so maybe I’ll throw that out generally to both of you to comment on briefly. But Professor Morin, if you want to start off on that?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
And we appreciate that.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Professor Venkatesh, on that or a much broader intervention.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you very much and, Professor Laidlaw.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Moderator MacKay. Professor D'Orazio, over to you.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Moderator MacKay again. Professor D'Orazio was just talking earlier about the echo- chamber effect and then I think Professor Venkatesh mentioned the sort of what I would call maybe fractured communities that are out there and people who get reinforced in their beliefs. And, Professor Penny, you haven't had a chance to intervene yet, so I'll throw those two in your direction and either of the other two can elaborate if we have moments to do that so.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Right. I think we're almost at the end, but I'll -- Mr. Morin, I'll take one final intervention here and then we'll move on to the final stage.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you very much, and it was very interesting and important, so I'm not concerned about that. I guess and we now are about to move -- Moderator MacKay here -- to the final stage of this, which is an opportunity without interruption, unless you want interruption, to give your sort of thoughts and reflections on the complex issues presented to this panel, and then any advice or ideas that you might wish to suggest to the Commission or to the public more generally on these complicated issues. And maybe just in case we do run out of time, I want to say for myself personally I thought it was an extremely interesting and diverse conversation on extremely important topic, so I complement you all on that, and outstanding efforts to stay within the timeline, so I appreciate that. So what I will now suggest, and we'll just go around the table, I guess, in the order -- maybe the same as we started with Professor D'Orazio first, just to your overall thoughts, reflections, conclusions on these complex topics and any advice or suggestions that you might have. So over to Professor D'Orazio to start us off.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Moderator MacKay here, and it’s over to Professor Penny.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
We perhaps should move on. We’re going to run out of time, but thank you. Professor Laidlaw?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Moderator MacKay, over to Professor Morin.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
First of all, before I turn it over to Dr. Venkatesh to get the last word on this part, I just want to comment that I think that’s a really important -- they’re all important points, but your point about the Commission and the hearings themselves are a reaffirmation of democracy in Canada and the fact that this kind of hearing is statutorily imposed in the Emergencies Act itself I think is something we should take some pride in, so I like that. So Professor Venkatesh, last word on this part.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you very much for all of that. Just on a last point, if I could ask one final question, a definition question, big surprise, which is “agonistic” as opposed to “antagonistic”. I think I know what that means and I quite like it, but I wondered if you’d just take a second to -- Professor Venkatesh, just to give me a short statement of what that means.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you very much. Now, my understanding, and the Commissioner can correct me, we now take a break to solicit whatever questions may be submitted and we’ll return with some questions from Commission counsel, if I understand that correctly, to the panel. And of course, the Commissioner can ask questions at any time. I don’t know if you have any questions at this point, or...?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thanks. So I think I’m right, we’re adjourned for now.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Thank you.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Welcome back. And just to clarify, I have not been appointed Commission counsel in that short time, but I have been asked to answer the -- to pose the question, so I think that’s maybe a vote of confidence. I hope so, anyway. We have six potential questions, so I will -- and I have a tight time because my understanding is that the translators leave at a certain point here, so we’ll have to be as concise as we can. So with that preamble, and maybe the only other thing I should add; as you probably know some of these questions, at least the core, came from participants, others are added in other ways. So first question and maybe I’ll reverse my order here and go to Professor Venkatesh first on this one. The role of labelling, and labelling in an antagonistic rather than, perhaps, agonistic way in society generally, but maybe particularly in the media; is that a problem and one that can be addressed? And I guess maybe put that a bit more clearly; that the media in particular is tending towards finding conflict, not binding agreement, and is that in the mainstream media a big problem? And maybe one shouldn’t blame it all on social media and those kinds of things. So if I -- if you can get a clear question out of that, and give me a short answer, I’d appreciate that.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
And that’s Professor Venkatesh.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Thank you very much. Moderator MacKay here again. A follow-up is, again, as briefly as possible, a sort of subset of that; in particular, what’s the role of the mainstream media in labelling, for example, extremist groups, as being right-wing or left-wing, or a particular extremist group? And anyone who wants to volunteer on that, I’ll just -- you can take that one on briefly. David, do you want to -- Mr. Morin?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Another question, on a somewhat different slant, is the -- should there be part of the recommendations from this Commission include suggested changes to the Emergencies Act? And I guess, ideally, time and ability to do this, any suggestions would be welcome. So I sort of throw that out; I mean, Emily or John or David, or any number of you, but a number of people, that’s an open question. David, if you want?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
I was I was surprised you took it on but...
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. A different -- somewhat different angle and maybe Professor Laidlaw will be a logical one for this one. What's the role of political actors within the definition of misinformation and malinformation and so on, and to what extent should regulation capture those players as well as others?
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Another question, and in fact, I was going to send it in you direction, but do a quick -- well, maybe I can ask my question and you can add that and then do the other one? The second question beyond that one is the role of anonymity in social media in terms of explaining the impact and the hurtfulness of that, and from my days in dealing with cyberbullying, I thought of you on that. So, first of all, add on this one I just -- and then address that as quickly as you can.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
And that's Professor Penny.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Final question to Professor D'Orazio, very large one, and you can add on that as well. I'll do as I did with Professor Penny, but the question is what kinds of mental health and other wellbeing impacts come from social media and misinformation, malinformation? That's a very large question, so first of all ---
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
--- add on the second one and then address that one.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Yeah, and it's Mr. D'Orazio speaking.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Okay. Well, I'll just say a quick word and then turn it over to the Commissioner to have the final word here. But I thank you all very much for outstanding contribution, and you know, very much for respecting the time and doing things in a very helpful way. And I think maybe I'll ask the Vic over there whether we were agonistic, but think we were pretty close to agonistic if not antagonistic as a group, and I think that's a good thing. So anyway, thank you very much for doing that, and I'll turn it back to the Commissioner to end things off anyway he wishes.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
This is your big opportunity.
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Wayne Mackay, Prof. (Law – Dalhousie University)
Bigger than talking to me.