Jacquie Bogden

Jacquie Bogden spoke 270 times across 1 day of testimony.

  1. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    My name is Jacqueline Bogden, J-a-c-q-u-e-l-i-n-e; my last name is Bogden, B-o-g-d-e- n.


  2. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  3. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  4. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  5. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes, that’s correct.


  6. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So we are -- the Secretariat is a newly created Secretariat at the Privy Council Office. It is within the -- it reports to the National Security and Intelligence Advisor. She has responsibility for four different groups, and so the Emergency Preparedness and COVID Recovery Secretariat is one of those. There’s also the Foreign Defence Policy Secretariat; the Security and Intelligence Secretariat; and the Intelligence Assessment Secretariat.


  7. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So the Secretariat was created in October 2021, thereabouts, and it was created to support the new dedicated role of the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, which is -- the Minister is situated in the Privy Council Office, and our Secretariat was created to support him in his activities.


  8. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes, correct.


  9. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That’s correct.


  10. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So from the Privy Council Office perspective, we support the Minister in his horizontal responsibilities. So you know, when the Prime Minister created this new, dedicated role of Minister of Emergency Preparedness, you know, he asked the Minister -- and this is outlined in his mandate letter that’s available on the Prime minister’s website -- to exercise a leadership role and coordinate efforts to improve our emergency preparedness and our emergency management capabilities in the government; working, of course, with provinces and territories. And in addition to that, he also asked Minister -- the Minister to play convening -- exercise a convening and coordinating role to support both the Prime Minister and the Cabinet in the acute phases of emergency response. So, you know, for example, this would be one of those situations. He would do something -- you know, something similar; for example, Hurricane Fiona, which we dealt with at the end of September.


  11. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    It’s all hazards. So you would -- we would be concerned with human-made situations that might arise, you know, such as the protests, the occupation and blockades, but we would also be concerned with any number of natural disasters. Or public health emergencies, like, for example, you know, part of the genesis of this is we’ve just lived through two and a half years of COVID-19 and all that that has entailed for the country. And in addition to that, we’ve seen an acceleration of climate-related impacts on the country. So an increase in, you know, fire -- devastating fires, floods, you know, and we need to be prepared -- increasingly prepared to respond as a country to those kinds of events.


  12. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  13. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Correct. And that we need to be prepared to respond to those, and working proactively with, you know, any number of other orders of government, civil society, private sector to make sure that the country is as prepared as it can be for what we can see on the horizon.


  14. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    January 10th; I started January 10th of this year, 2022.


  15. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  16. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  17. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  18. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So I guess the first part of our role, obviously PCO plays, you know, as it does in many different situations, it helps to coordinate the Federal Government response to any given situation, and the same would be true in this case. And -- so what we're trying to do in coordinating that response, we'll convene departments and agencies together, we're trying to develop a common understanding, a common, kind of up-to-date understanding of the situation and assess that situation. We're determining, you know, what are the actions that the Federal Government needs to take in response to the situation or might need to take. And the objective there is really to make sure that, you know, we're ready to do whatever's needed, the efforts are coordinated, and ideally, that the course of action is effective. So what we would've been doing in this case, like the Emergency Preparedness Secretariat, you would have heard, for example, from others who testified earlier this week, that there was a governance structure set up at the Deputy Minister level. There was governance that was set up at the ADM level to facilitate that sharing of information. What we would be doing is, then, in the, you know, let's say in the week preceding the arrival of the demonstrations in Ottawa, helping ensure that that information that is being collected is flowing in to, for example, staff of the Office of the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, staff in the Prime Minister's Office, so that they have visibility over this -- something that is on the horizon that is happening, what information do we know, what do we not know, what action are we taking, and they have confidence that, you know, the Federal Government across departments and agencies is doing what it should do in response to this kind of situation.


  19. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So maybe, if you'll permit me ---


  20. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- just to... So in that week, I think our efforts really began in seriousness in the week in advance of the arrival of the demonstrations; right? So the briefing that I was mentioning for, you know, the Office of the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, the Prime Minister's Office, we were also, as we got closer to the weekend, thinking about making sure that ministers, also, had a collective and common understanding of, you know, what we knew about the weekend. And so we would've started briefing, having joint briefings with ministers the Thursday before the arrival of the convoy, and again, we're just making sure that they have a common understanding of the situation. The other thing that we're doing is we're thinking a little bit about making sure that we're prepared in the event that things don't go as planned that weekend. Right? This is a scenario where -- that has been billed as a peaceful protest, a slow roll that will go through the Nation's Capital, and there's a series of activities on the Hill, and you know, in the park, a prayer service, and that those things will happen as intended. But in the back of our mind, we were also thinking about, you know, what if things don't go as planned? There's a lot about this situation that we don't. You know, it is -- it isn't like Canada Day, where law enforcement has, you know, it happens on the same day every year, there are weeks to prepare. We don't have perfect information about the situation as it's developing, we don't, like, have fidelity, for example, on how many trucks, how many individuals. You know, so we're thinking about that. And when you have large groups of people get together, you always need to be foreseeing the possibility that intentionally or otherwise, you know, it could lead to violence and loss of life, and so we're thinking about how do we make sure that the government would be ready and we could bring ministers together if something unfortunate happened over the weekend. And it wasn't a theoretically possibility. Like some of the statements that were being made in the lead-up to that weekend, you know, references to the January 6th attack on Capitol Hill, you know, we -- I think the Federal Public Service was well aware of the actual threat of lone actors that could take advantage of the situation. So that's kind of what's going through our mind. On one hand, making sure that everybody understands what's happening. We hope everything is going to go as planned, but we also need to be prepared if things don't transpire as they are presented. So to get to your question, which is about, you know, when did you know that things were... So I think it became clear to us on Sunday that things... I remember watching the news conference that was held by the organisers of the convoy, where it was made clear that they were staying. And so then we're starting to give some thought to, okay, Parliament is scheduled to return on the Monday, we -- you know, we're still in hybrid format, but we know some ministers are going to be making a decision to return to Ottawa, either flying in on the Sunday evening or the next day. We need -- you know, presumably the Prime Minister would like some information about whether it's safe and secure for them to do that, how will they access the Hill. We're also thinking about our own employees in the Federal Public Service. Our -- you know, whether that's at PCO or other employees, while we're in a remote work posture, there are still many, including in the security and intelligence sphere, that need to access our building, so we need to be thinking about their health and safety. So by that Sunday night, we would have been having meetings with the National Security Intelligence Advisor, and then ultimately with the Clerk, in order to brief her so that she would be in a position to brief the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister’s Office about the current situation, kind of leading into the week.


  21. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don’t.


  22. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don’t, sorry.


  23. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  24. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So I mean the events have unfolded; we, you know, have the return of Parliament on the Monday. For the first two days of that week, so that would be January 31st and the 1st, we’re continuing -- we’d been, at this point, having daily briefings for Ministers. And those briefings consist of just -- so that listeners and the Commissioner understand, what we would do with these briefings everyday would -- we would have the Commissioner of the RCMP, we would have the Director of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service, and at a certain point -- or we would have had the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, and a few others, providing real-time, live updates of the situation as it’s developing. And at this point, we have a situation, not just in Ottawa, we also have the situation in Coutts which is developing. And so, you know, we have two different situations to be alive to. So we’re keeping Ministers apprised. By midweek we have these two situations -- midweek, which would be February 31st, 1st, 2nd ---


  25. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  26. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  27. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Which Ministers? At this point, the -- we would have Minister Blair; Minister Mendicino; Minister Leblanc, who is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs; Minister Alghabra, who is the Minister of Transportation. I believe those four Ministers at this point in time.


  28. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, and this is the Ministers who’ve been meeting on a daily basis to take stock of the situation and understand what we know, what we don’t know, and what actions are being taken. So by midweek, around Wednesday, you know, we have these -- this situation. There’s not clear signs that the situation’s going to be resolved, or we don’t have confidence of any signs that it’s going to be resolved. We’re also starting to hear a lot of reports that, you know, there will be additional protest activity over the weekend, both in Ottawa and in Alberta, and so, you know, starting to be concerned that, you know, not only is this situation not resolving, but the situation could get worse. So at a certain point here, we make a decision that it is time to convene a Cabinet Committee, which is the Safety, Security, and Emergencies Committee. Do you want me to explain the mandate of the committee, or...?


  29. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  30. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  31. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So this meeting, this is -- this is -- okay, maybe I’ll -- just for the benefit of others who won’t know, this is the -- this is a standing committee of Cabinet, it’s the Cabinet Committee on Safety, Security, and Emergencies. It has a threefold mandate. One, is to be concerned about threats and risks to the safety and security of Canada and Canadians. It has a second responsibility for management of ongoing emergencies; and, thirdly, to ensure that there’s proactive, integrated, forward- looking thinking around the -- our level of emergency preparedness and capacity to respond to emergency management. So that’s the intent and purpose of the Committee. It’s a standing committee that will meet on a fixed schedule but it also, like other Cabinet committees, has the ability to meet on an ad hoc basis. And that’s exactly what we would have done at this situation, is decided, okay, I think it’s time to bring together the -- and support a conversation amongst the, you know, standing Cabinet committee. And so the meeting would’ve proceeded in two ways, as you’ll see reflected in the minutes, asking, you know, key heads of different institutions to report on the situation; so the Commissioner of the RCMP, I think the Director of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service also provided an update, probably Deputy Minister Rob Stewart. And the idea there, just like the Ministerial briefings is to give everybody a common understanding of this situation, how it’s evolving, what we know, what we don’t know. And then the second part of the discussion is to start to talk about -- a little bit more about what more the federal government might want to do to try to support the resolution of this situation. So you will see, I think in the minutes, there is a placemat that, you know, puts together a quick snapshot of some different range of options that the government could consider. And it wasn’t perfect, but it was there to kind of stimulate conversation on the range of options within federal jurisdiction of things that Ministers and departments might be able to think about.


  32. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, sure. So, you know, like I said, you’re thinking about all of the things that are in area of federal responsibility. So you’re thinking about what authorities do you have; what influence do you have; what resources do you have; what are the kinds of things that you could do? So you see on the left-hand side of this document, the convening and engagement power that -- power; the convening and engagement sort of influence that the government could bring to bear. So, for example, is there more that we should be doing with provinces and jurisdiction -- provinces and territories that we’re not already doing? And that could be, you know, Ministers. Ministers at this point had already been doing some engagement. Should there be more? You know, should we be thinking about a call between the Prime Minister and Premiers, or anything; just thinking about all of those things. Engagement, you know, with the City of Ottawa, directly. Should we be doing more? And, you know, what form should that take? You know, making sure that with -- like, you know, determining whether additional assistance should be provided to the Ottawa Police Service, right? In terms of sort of increasing their ability to respond to this situation.


  33. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don’t know if it’s attempting to sort out the jurisdiction, because I think jurisdiction is clear, ---


  34. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- in my mind. Like, what we’re trying to do there is to ask ourselves what support does the City need? What support does, you know, the Ottawa Police Service need, and how can we be helpful? And it might be people, it might be equipment, it might be bollards. You know, we didn’t do that kind of thing at that point, but later in the -- you know, you’re sort of thinking about those kinds of things.


  35. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  36. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Totally. You know, if -- to help bring this to a, yeah, to a resolution.


  37. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No. I think -- I think that’s good. It, you know, just essentially sets out, like there’s a -- any number of ways, right, that we can bring influence to the situation, provide direct support, you know, being creative about it. But this was the -- a start of a more formal conversation that we need to be thinking about, about supporting a resolution of what’s happening.


  38. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. So, you know, as we expected, that weekend there was an increase in protest activity. And you know, we, you know, not only saw an increase in protest activity in Ottawa and in Coutts. You know, you saw the situation expand into B.C., Manitoba now, in central Canada. You know, we're seeing similar slow roll protests in Toronto and in Quebec City. Fortunately, those two jurisdictions learned a little bit about the experience in Ottawa and were able to manage those situations differently, and it didn't result in, you know, what we were seeing happen in Ottawa. So we see, you know, an increase in protest activity over that weekend. I believe that is also the weekend where we received a formal request for assistance from Alberta, for both people and equipment to help resolve, you know, the situation in Coutts.


  39. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  40. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Sure, so this is the request that was received from Alberta. And I think you need to scroll down to actually get to the essence of the request.


  41. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So looking for, "...federal assistance that includes the provision of equipment and personnel to move approximately 70 semi-[truck] trailers and approximately 75 personal and recreational vehicles from the area." And looking, you know, essentially, for assistance from the government to deal with that. So the request would have come in to -- directly to the Minister's office. It would have also went in directly to Public Safety and Emergency, the Department of Public Safety and Emergency for them to work on for us. In receipt of this request, I probably received the copy from the Minister's office. What I would have been wanting to do at that particular moment in time is to make sure that my colleague that looks after intergovernmental affairs is aware. There's probably a record in the collection that I would have shared it with Michael Vandergrift, who is the Deputy Minister for Intergovernmental Affairs at the Privy Council Office. And also, wanting to make sure, you know, that the National Security Intelligence Advisor is aware and that the Clerk and the Deputy Clerk are also aware that we've received this request from Alberta that will need to be. And as Jeff explained ---


  42. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Oh, slow down.


  43. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I'm very sorry, sir. My counsel was reminding me, and I knew that you've warned others. Sometimes I can speak very quickly. I will try -- I get excited. Sorry about that, sir.


  44. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    All right. I will try to breath. Okay. So I would have made sure that those who needed to know inside PCO at a senior level, you know, were aware. And then as Jeff had explained earlier, or Mr. Hutchinson had explained earlier, Public Safety would have done what they do to sort of look at the request and how the government would want to respond to that.


  45. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. So we're on February 5th. We received this request, and I'm not entirely certain if we knew then, or we knew on Sunday, but we were anticipating an additional request for assistance from the City of Ottawa, looking for additional resources to help the Ottawa Police Service. So by Saturday, we had decided, okay, we need to bring Ministers together again on Sunday night, so we began the preparations for that discussion on Sunday night.


  46. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That's funny.


  47. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    It says postal station B, but it wasn't. It was a virtual meeting.


  48. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So, I mean, this meeting was, you know, similar to the meeting that we had on Tuesday night in that it sort of was transacted in two ways. One was to update Ministers on the situation as we knew it at that point in the afternoon, and those briefings would have been delivered as they were on the Thursday night, you know, by the Commissioner of the RCMP, the Director of CSIS, and others to make sure that Ministers had an up-to-date situational awareness. And then there would have been a follow-up discussion about, you know, we've seen an escalation of protest activity over the weekend. You know, we're going into week two now of this, and what additional things -- you know, picking up from the conversation on Thursday and over the weekend, because remember, we're still briefing, you know, the core Ministers over the weekend. They were very seized with this over the weekend. What more should we consider doing heading into hitting into the week? So, you know, as an example, one of the ideas that was talked about was should we seek to bring together the representatives of the Ontario government with the Government of Canada and Ottawa, which is what became known as the tripartite discussion or tripartite table. And so that was, you know, one of the -- like, that is, you know, one example of something that would have -- tangible action that would have flowed from that meeting. I would have been asked the next day to organize that meeting and get that started.


  49. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  50. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    If we knew it at that time. I can't remember the timing, I'm sorry. I didn't go back and double check the timing. This meeting was at two o'clock in the afternoon, so I don't remember that the minutes reflect that, but, you know, if we knew that at the time, that would have -- it would have been something that we would have discussed.


  51. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, that would have been one of the things, yeah.


  52. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Sure. So I would have, you know, sought to organize that. The next day, I think the meeting would have been, you know, maybe at five o'clock that day. And so we were seeking to invite the Ontario Solicitor General and her Deputy Solicitor General, who is the head -- it's Mario Di Tommaso who you've heard testimony here at the hearings, and then the Mayor of the City of Ottawa, as well as Minister of Public Safety Mendocino, and the Minister of Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair, and he would have had a few individuals from the senior public service. So, for example, I was there, Rob Stewart, the Deputy Minister of Public Safety would have been there. And the conversation was really -- you know, the idea here was can we get the three orders of government together, there's a situation in Ottawa that there is no line of sight on resolution. How can we help? What more can we do to help?


  53. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  54. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  55. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    There was not representation from Ontario.


  56. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  57. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I mean, it was a good conversation just to update on -- from each party. I'm sure there would have been a recollection, for example, that we had already -- RCMP -- additional RCMP officers had already been deployed to support the City of Ottawa. This is Monday, Monday the 7th? I'm sure the Mayor would have indicated to the Ministers that there was a request forthcoming for about 1800 additional personnel, and he would be looking for support, and he would be looking for support in response sooner rather than later.


  58. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  59. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  60. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Super. Thank you.


  61. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    This is a regularly scheduled meeting. And I think -- so as I said, you know, there was intention heading into this week to be, you know, intensifying and thinking about what proactively the government could do to support the resolution of the situation. I think it's important to also maybe note that at the start of this week is we’d already seen some protest activity around the Ambassador Bridge, and now we’re in a situation where that, you know, is a much more dire situation. And so what we decided to do was add on an item at this meeting and again update Ministers and talk about what more might need to be done. And I think, you know, the situation is becoming increasingly concerning. You know, it’s getting worse, and not getting better. And we don’t have line of sight on how these different situations that exist are going to get resolved or get better quickly. And so there’s a further conversation about what more Ministers or departments and agencies need to be thinking about doing.


  62. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, so this is true for all standing Cabinet committees, is that they will deliberate either on policy or other issues and make recommendations to the Prime Minister and Cabinet. But they’re not a decision-making body.


  63. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So I mean I think it’s important to acknowledge that nobody has been sitting around doing nothing, you know, up until this point; right? But it’s leaning in a little bit more. And so what I would say happened next is, for example, you know, very early the next morning, the Clerk of the Privy Council Office pulled all of the -- I shouldn’t use the word “pull” -- convened all of the Deputy Secretaries of the Privy Council Office and Deputy Ministers who were implicated together and asked us to, you know, pull together, in written form, all of the options that are available to the Federal Government to resolve this situation and get that into some kind of a form that we could put it in front of Ministers, whether that is another SSE meeting or what. But, you know, to be decided.


  64. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  65. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  66. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  67. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That’s essentially what’s happening; right? Is we’ve had a conversation with the clerk amongst deputies that morning. We and our team are acting as a bit of an aggregator of information that is coming in from departments. We’re not writing a lot ourselves. We’re just pulling it in from departments. And the nature of the conversation that we had that morning was I think I would characterize it -- if you permit me to do that? Can I do that? To -- you know, is two things. So on the one hand, was it all of the range of things within existing federal authorities that can be brought to bear to resolve this situation? And you know, you’re looking at not just resolving the current situation, you’re also thinking about, you know, mitigating the situation getting worse; right? Because we do have a serious, you know, situation, and, you know, how do we prevent it from getting worse? So I think that the Commissioner and those who are listening today would have heard in other testimony that was given by other Deputy Minister’s this week some of the things that we talked about in that meeting that morning, the work that had been underway in getting that on paper. So the kinds of things I’m talking about are, for example, you know, first order of business is to think about what additional resources does law enforcement need? You know, whether that is people, or it’s equipment, or, you know, whatever it is that they need in order -- money, what is it, in order to be able to enforce the laws and address the situations that we’re seeing. You know, another example is engagement. You know, do we need to be doing more in terms of engagement with other orders of government, or engagement, for example, with the organizers of the protests and the demonstrations. So that’s, you know, a second line. And I think you maybe had heard that from Deputy Minister Stewart during his testimony earlier this week, that that was something that he had been working on. You know, the other examples of things that we were working on, you would have heard from Deputy Minister Keenan about the strategic enforcement strategy; right? How do we, you know, encourage people to consider taking their trucks and leaving? They’re engaging in illegal behaviour, how, you know, can we help in that way? The tow truck strategy, which I think gave everybody gray hair, just thinking of the millions of ways that we could try to resolve that situation. So that’s -- and there was other things in that bucket of things that we need to do within our existing authorities, like in the vein of thinking about how do we make sure this situation doesn’t become worse, one of the things that, for example, the President of the CBSA would have been worrying about is how do we harden or, what’s another way to say that, make more resilient our border points across the country? Like, you know, at this point in time, you know, at the SSE meeting on the 8th or, you know, as we’re having that discussion in the morning, he’s been reporting out on no less than 10 different, you know, border points being occupied. Ambassador Bridge is, for all pretense and purposes blocked, he’s having difficulty redirecting that critical traffic to Sarnia. Like, so we need to think about how do we make sure that this situation doesn’t get worse; right? Because these are critical supply lines, both in terms of Canadians, both in terms of trade, you know, and so we need to be thinking about that. So there, we’re kind of working on what are all the things that we can do within our existing authorities to try to support the resolution of this situation and not have it escalate or become worse.


  68. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  69. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Oh, perfect. Okay. Sorry. I should have allowed you to do that. That would give you sort of the kind of lines of effort that we were thinking about. So enforcement, engagement, finance refers to thinking about, you know, one of the -- I talked a little bit about the trucks. One of the other policy problems that we had was the fundraising, you know, and what do we do about the fact that there is a significant amount of money that is being raised that is going to support illegal activity. And what do we do about that?


  70. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So I’m going to ask you to walk us through all of those options a little more slowly with the assistance of the next document, which is PB.NSC.CAN.000002418. Oh, sorry, 2419. Okay. So do you recall, ---


  71. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  72. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  73. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    This was the first cut; right? We’re ---


  74. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- taking information that’s being provided from different organizations. This -- I can’t remember off the top of my head whether this came from the RCMP or Public Safety, but it would have been one or the both of them.


  75. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. By this point we are Wednesday; yeah.


  76. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  77. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  78. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  79. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, presumably. Yeah.


  80. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. And this is a request that is going to both levels of government; right? And I think both of, you know, both the RCMP and the OPP would be asking themselves the same questions; right? Like what's the order of magnitude of the people that you need, and what is the plan that you're putting those people against? Right? Because I remember that quite distinctly at a number of occasions the Commissioner making that clear, that it isn't just about the number of people, it's what are the duties, like what is the capabilities that you need? What will be asking them to do? And you need fidelity on that plan, both, you know, for their safety and to make sure that you have enough individuals to be able to prosecute on that. And I remember when this came in; right? It was a big, big ask, and it was a big ask for a lot of different kinds of needs and services, like including everything from, you know, media relations help and things like that. Like we were asking ourselves, okay, could we do a call out, you know, find individuals within the Federal Public Service to lend them? Like is there a way we can help? Like that was really the way everybody was thinking at this point in time, is like, all hands on deck. How do we help get this done kind of thing?


  81. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  82. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. This is a short- form kind of articulation of what you heard from Deputy Minister Keenan a little bit earlier in the week about the strategic enforcement strategy, is how do we, you know, show that there are consequences, you know, economic consequences, or other consequences, both through the police and law enforcement, but also, is there a way to work with provincial transportation authorities and looking at, you know, for example, you know, the Ontario Highway Traffic Act. And you know, these are commercial vehicles with -- that are, you know, that are registered either in the province, or Ontario or other provinces. Is there a way that we could work with provincial transportation authorities to try to resolve the issue.


  83. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  84. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  85. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  86. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    And the prospect that that could get worse. And I think when I was talking about, you know, the idea of making sure that our critical infrastructure, like that we've hardened it or made it more resilient, you know, I was strictly talking about the borders, you know, ports of entry, but we were also worried about things like rail, and you know, other modes of transport. Right? So, yeah.


  87. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  88. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. Like what are the other -- you know, you -- what are the other places that could become a target of protest activity or blockades; right?


  89. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Well, I mean, we had -- I think there has been testimony here about a slow roll around the airport in the City of Ottawa. You know, we had -- I think there were indications around rail, I can't remember precisely what they were, but yes, I think that we were hearing that, you know. And even if they're unconfirmed reports, right, once -- you still have to take all of that stuff seriously and be thinking about how do you mitigate the situation getting worse. Right?


  90. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  91. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. As -- like, there's a range of options that we can explore here, right, and we need to -- you know, the idea of potential engagement with the organisers of the protesters, like it's been an idea that was thought of and talked about, and -- so now starting to put some definition around well, what would that mean. What would that involve? Who would do that?


  92. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  93. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No, not -- I mean -- no, I don't. I don't. The DM -- the sort of bullet before about the: "[Deputy Minister] of [Public Safety] and NSIA are meeting with senior levels..." That's factually true. Where the idea of: "Engagement could be expanded to include the [FCM]..." I don't know where that idea came from. Whether that was from us or it came from another department, I really can't recall. But I know the idea that's behind it, right, is that we're thinking about, it's not just addressing the situation as it exists today, it's preventing the situation worsening. So thinking about, you know, what we had seen with Toronto and Quebec City, right, having learned the lessons of how to create the conditions for a peaceful protest, but not allow it to turn into an occupation or a blockade. And so the idea behind that is how do we share those lessons learned? You know, these situations are not a normal occurrence, and -- so, yeah, I think that's kind of the idea behind that. I'm going to -- that's me speculating a little bit, but...


  94. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That's correct. Yeah.


  95. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  96. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Or the Public Service level.


  97. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Mr. Di Tommaso was not there either.


  98. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  99. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  100. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  101. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  102. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  103. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  104. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. That's what I had mentioned earlier, is that engagement take many forms; right? And so how can we influence and work closely with other partners to bring this to a resolution.


  105. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  106. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  107. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I think it's just to help ---


  108. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, it's part of a communication strategy. It -- I mean, in these kinds of situations, it's really -- it's important to have clarity and consistency on your communications about the initiative. And I think at this point -- where are we, we're the 9th? We do -- like, the federal government wants to make sure that Canadians understand that, on the one hand, we understand their frustration with COVID and the world that we have all had to live with up until that point, and -- and I didn't read these -- the narrative again before my testimony, but so it's on the one hand ---


  109. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, and then it talking about what is the -- so, okay, so I was not that far off. The first is sort of empathy and understanding with the frustration that everyone is feeling with the current situation, and then starting to talk a little bit about what it is that we're doing to support the jurisdictions to resolve the situation, to protect us. Oh, okay, this is the work that we've done with provinces and territories to respond to COVID. Okay. If we could keep going down? "What we[']re now seeing is, unfortunately a very real demonstration of this frustration and exhaustion..." So, you know, expressing understanding, but also making clear that illegal actions are not the answer; right? They're -- yeah. And so this kind of notes are kind of put together to help Ministers and others, you know, have a common, consistent message about how do we want to talk about the situation. Canadians expect to hear from their government. They want to know what they think. And I think this is an early draft of that. I think there would have been additional drafts but ---


  110. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. So this is the 9th. That's an early version. There would have been a later version.


  111. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  112. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, and there are -- we had that very -- this is the February 10th version because it's 3 o'clock in the morning by this point. That's why it's February 10th, but, so, you know, the 9th, we had that early conversation with the Clerk. People have been working really hard. They're feeding us information and we're trying to package it into some kind of form that kind of makes sense, right, or that could help the -- whether it's the, you know, senior leadership in the PCO have, you know, briefings or discussions, either with the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's office, but just, you know, the Clerk had asked us to get these ideas together on paper, pull it in from departments and get it on paper. Yeah, and knowing that, you know, the -- part of our job in the public service is to put together options and advice for Ministers to consider what to do.


  113. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. So at the top of the email -- here I'm just -- you know, the document that you had projected earlier was an earlier version, right, like, a first cut. And here I'm just saying to them, so we've done the best we can to not just take the input from the departments but try to put it together in a way that might be thoughtful. I think, you know, with the emphasis on enforcement, both in Ottawa and Windsor, and I've kind of put it into, you know, Plan A is provide resources, you know, whatever's needed to help resolve, and, you know, if that's not successful, what else do we need to be thinking about? And that's always the world we're in is what can we do within existing resources. And when that doesn't work or the situation escalates, or deteriorates, however you want to characterize it, you need to be thinking about what is Plan B, you know, what other -- you can call it Plan B or you could call it Track 2, but you need to be thinking about what other options that you might need to be thinking about. And again, I'll just say this is part of what we need to do in government is to be thinking ahead, to make sure that we're ready if the government looks to us and says, what are our options, how can we proceed. We've actually done the homework and we've pulled that information together. We don't wait until we're asked.


  114. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  115. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  116. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  117. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  118. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No, Ontario didn't -- wasn't able to participate in any of the meetings.


  119. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So the next morning, I believe that the Clerk had a conversation with the Prime Minister, and there was a decision taken to convene the Incident Response Group, so that is another Cabinet Committee. This is - - its express purpose is to be called in a crisis for national emergency of some kind, and it includes the Prime Minister, and it will include the -- you know, the sort of most implicated Ministers who need to be there to help provide information and advice. And so a decision was taken that morning to bring together the Incident Response Group. And the only other thing I would say about that is, is that Cabinet Committee is a decision-making body, so it can make decisions. Yeah.


  120. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  121. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So this is the same as other departments were doing the day before that we’d talked about. Like, if you saw in the document there was kind of a place holder for more information about the engagement proposal, and so this is what Deputy Minister Stewart was able to send to us the next day, to kind of be integrated into the package. And I think it -- I mean, he is better placed to discuss the contents of this, but I think it’s a reflection of, you know, where we were at that point in time. We had begun work on developing some advice on a potential path for engagement and had been doing that with police -- some advice from police experts.


  122. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    And maybe, you know, the, sort of what happened in Windsor; right? The Ontario Government had attempted to do that and it wasn’t fruitful. So I think that would also be one of the considerations.


  123. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  124. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Good morning.


  125. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    They would have been there, yes. They are members of that committee, yeah.


  126. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  127. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    For each of the meetings to be absolutely certain it would be good just to check the minutes, because that’s part of what has been disclosed, I think.


  128. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, you can say that for sure.


  129. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  130. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Not full Cabinet, no.


  131. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Oh yes, sorry. Sorry; when you -- sorry; yes, that is correct. Yes, sorry. I was thinking about the normal regularly scheduled Cabinet meetings as opposed to the one we had on...


  132. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That’s what it looks like, yeah.


  133. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Sorry; can you repeat that question again?


  134. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  135. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  136. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    We didn’t know that then, that evening.


  137. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes, that's ---


  138. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- that's correct.


  139. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  140. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I can't remember what RRM stands for. That is -- you would find that in the testimony from the Associate Deputy Minister Cindy Termorshuizen ---


  141. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- Global Affairs.


  142. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  143. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  144. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    They ---


  145. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I can't explain the acronym but the ---


  146. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- description is correct.


  147. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Does it leave out anything important?


  148. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So I guess, first off, I need to say I'm not the author of the document.


  149. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    You know, there is a team that pulls this information together to support the National Security and Intelligence Advisor when she would be relying on these talking points.


  150. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  151. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So, like, not being able to go through each kind of individual situation, like, I think I remember where I was on that Sunday night, and what I was worried about and the situation that we were seeing. So you referred early in the document to, you know, the -- that there was -- it was -- the situation in Windsor at the Ambassador Bridge was being resolved.


  152. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That is true. And the point of -- the port of entry was being opened, but I think at that point in time, we were also concerned about keeping it open, and what it would require in order to keep that border point open, given what the country had been through for the last seven days; right? That situation had existed for almost a full week. So you had no fidelity over whether that situation and the need to keep that open. That weekend, like, the weekend that we're talking about here, we continued to have other instances ---


  153. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- of things that were happening across the country. So, for example, and I can't remember this, and you were scrolling down, the situation at the Pacific Highway. There were large demonstrations in B.C. at the Pacific Highway. There was a circumstance where, for example, four individuals were charged.


  154. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  155. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So here -- okay, that is there. No ---


  156. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- delays, okay, but we did have an instance, right, where the RCMP has charged four individuals who have broken through an RCMP barricade there. I'm sorry, I made you hit your time.


  157. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    But it's important, because what we're seeing in B.C. and what we're seeing in Alberta is instances of where law enforcement is -- you know, there are an increasing kind of threats, and I think that was something that we were concerned about. So that's there and that's reflected.


  158. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, it's a -- it was a military style -- that's my recollection, it was a military style vehicle that had tried to break through the blockade.


  159. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That may be -- you could verify that.


  160. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, that may be.


  161. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  162. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Good morning.


  163. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  164. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That is something that public servants would do in consultation with -- usually you have advice from lawyers ---


  165. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- on the interpretation, but, yes.


  166. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So, well, the first part of your question, no, I don't interpret legislation on my own, and I believe the second part of your question is correct. You know, Parliament passes legislation that sets out what their vision and intent for legislation is. And in some cases, it says what you can, and you can't do.


  167. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I'm aware of that, yes.


  168. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I'm going to decline to answer this question. I'm sorry. I don't feel that in my current responsibilities and my knowledge and understanding that I can answer that question for you.


  169. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I think ---


  170. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Again, I don't feel expert enough to be able to answer that question.


  171. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Me, personally? No.


  172. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    There would have been discussions about this, but I think those questions, you know, about -- were, you know, put to the National Security Intelligence Advisor yesterday, and I would defer to whatever answer she provided to the Commission yesterday on these questions.


  173. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don't feel in a position that I can answer those questions very specifically ---


  174. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- based on the role and the responsibilities that I had in supporting the Privy Council Office and at the time of the events that transpired.


  175. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I think I'm going to decline to answer this question. Thank you.


  176. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don't know that I can answer that either.


  177. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I have no idea. I am sorry, I am not in a position to answer that question either.


  178. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That's my understanding, that it was the RCMP.


  179. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I can't speak to what others would have known, and what the -- who would've known what before the operation was executed. I, myself, in the conversations that I was witness to, was aware that there were threats of violence to persons and a worry about the safety of officers, and that was all we knew. And -- like I have to say in the conversations that I was party to, the Commissioner of the RCMP was very careful about operational security.


  180. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No. I was aware that there was a threat of violence, that there was thought to be firearms involved ---


  181. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- and there were threats to the safety of the officers there ---


  182. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- and they were proceeding cautiously, and that's the extent of what I would've known about that situation.


  183. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    As I think I've already clarified what I knew, I can't speak to what others knew about the situation, so I think I need to leave it there just...


  184. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Good morning.


  185. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, that was at initial assessment. Yeah.


  186. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    If that’s what the record says, then yes.


  187. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I believe so. Like that’s my understanding of what I heard, yeah.


  188. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don’t -- I’m sorry. I’m not sure I know which meeting that you’re referring to. Like it could be the tripartite meeting. No?


  189. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. No, I’m not aware of that.


  190. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. That was, right, the -- so what was shown to me this morning was the information that I got either from public Safety or the RCMP, so that’s not my -- that’s not my text, right. That’s what others have provided to me.


  191. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  192. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I was aware that a plan was being developed and was awaiting approval.


  193. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don’t have firsthand knowledge of this conversation. This is Deputy Minister Stewart who’s relating having spoken to his Ontario counterpart and OPP, and this is information that he’s got and/or summarized. So I don’t feel equipped. My understanding is that an offer was made to -- you know, separate and apart from this email, that an offer was made to the organizers of the different protests in Windsor and it was not accepted.


  194. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That’s what I meant when I said, you know, the effort was not successful. It wasn’t productive. It didn’t result in a resolution. But there was an offer made.


  195. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  196. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  197. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  198. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I really can’t say. My -- I can’t remember what Chief Sloly would have asked for. It would be probably better to put question to Deputy Minister Stewart.


  199. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  200. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Thank you, sir.


  201. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Good morning.


  202. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  203. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Correct. Yeah.


  204. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes, that’s correct. I think we confirmed that with Commission Counsel this morning. Yeah.


  205. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That would be an option. Yes. either the Emergency Act, or Special Purpose Emergency Legislation; right? Like, there’s a couple of different ways you could do that. Yeah.


  206. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. To a certain extent, yeah.


  207. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, the record will show that. If you -- if you look at the tracker that is attached to the minutes of the Incident Response Group meeting on the 12th of February, you know, the document that's appended there shows the things that we were working on, as you say, in Track 1, which is within existing authorities; and Track 2, you know, what if Track 1 isn't successful or the situation escalates quickly and we need to be in a position to do something different.


  208. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes. Yeah, so the -- I guess what I was trying to -- you're absolutely right, the minutes do refer to that. They refer to a discussion of, you know, the action that could be taken within existing authority and then what might be the process of invoking the Emergency Act. That was the second part of the conversation.


  209. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, probably something like that. Yeah.


  210. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Not the first week of February, no. That -- we were not there yet, no.


  211. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That's referring to something else. Do you recall when Commission Counsel put up the document that was circulated for the SSE meeting on February 3rd? It's like a placemat, and there's a whole range of options. In the right column it was creative options. So things like le grand débat, and things like that. That's what that refers to.


  212. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    It would've probably been on or around the 9th.


  213. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  214. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I think that's right.


  215. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So I can't say that definitively. You know, work would have being done by a lot of different people on an anticipatory basis that, you know, making sure, as I said, that we've done our homework and we would be in a position to answer questions; right? Like if the Government turned to the public servants and said, "What's involved with invocation of the Act?", you need to be able to answer all kinds of first order questions; right? Everything from the threshold that's to be met to what's the Parliamentary process, you know, what kinds of considerations do you want to be thinking about. So I can't say definitively who was working on what. I wasn't directing that work. So I'm not being evasive, I'm just trying to understand it was all hands on deck at that point, and I can't speak to every part of the Public Service.


  216. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I can't say definitively. I know there was work being done in the Privy Council Office. As to how other departments would have been implicated, I can't speak to that.


  217. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Okay. Thank you.


  218. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    That's correct.


  219. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    The evidence of that, yeah.


  220. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, that was definitely something that we were alive to, that possibility that you would continue to need resources to make -- keep that open.


  221. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yes, that's correct.


  222. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  223. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Well, I mean I think I would describe the situation as highly concerning, unpredictable, a lot -- still a lot of uncertainty. You know, no clarity on what the plan was for resolution in Ottawa, concerns about, you know, the border point at Ambassador Bridge. I had referred in my earlier testimony to the escalation of a violence towards law enforcement that we saw in B.C., and I think towards RCMP officers in Coutts, and -- but you know, the prospect that, you know, this situation could continue to get worse if left unattended and if nothing was done to change the trajectory of the situation.


  224. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, that's correct. Like at each of the places, you know, over that weekend, like if you review, for example, you know the IRG minutes from that weekend, you'll see reports from the Commissioner of the RCMP and others about continued and growing protest activity across the country. And I've already referred to a few of them, and the same was happening here in Ottawa. And you know, here, this reference to, "Police say protesters overwhelmed officers", you know, that's also the point I made earlier, you know, what we were seeing in B.C. and Coutts. We don't have infinite resources to enforce the law, and you do need to be concerned about threats of violence against the people that you're asking to enforce the law. So there was a lot here to be worried about at this particular point in time.


  225. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No, not at all. Like there's a volatility and uncertainty in this situation. Yeah.


  226. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  227. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  228. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah. This is the -- yeah, using it as a deterrence, and -- yeah.


  229. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  230. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  231. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  232. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  233. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  234. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, I think that's right. You know, as I was explaining when we were just talking about this with Commission Counsel, like, you know, first and foremost, like at this moment in time, and as we have been for a number of days now, right, really focussed on how do we bring to bear a range of options within existing authorities in order to help bring this matter to a peaceful and timely kind of resolution. But at the same time, you also have to be prepared that Plan A or Track 1 isn't going to be successful, and/or, not just that, I think you also need to be ready for the possibility, and it was not a theoretical risk, that the situation could escalate quickly or deteriorate and that the government would need to be prepared and to intervene and respond in some way. Yeah, it's important.


  235. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  236. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, this is a -- it's a culmination of conversations over the days leading up, the 9th, additional meetings over the course of the 9th, and just trying to put this together in a way that would help support a conversation. Yeah.


  237. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  238. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Correct. Which was -- you know, which was discussed, you know, at the first Incident Response Group. You know, what you find in the minutes of the meeting of the 12th is actually a reflection of what was discussed on the 10th, which is, yeah.


  239. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, it's to encourage that. It's a collective responsibility, right, that PCO would have and actually departments would have in this instance is to make sure, as I said, that we're ready to advise the government in a range of different scenarios that might materialize, like, remembering where we are. We're in an unprecedented situation that is vacillating day by day, hour by hour with new information, imperfect information, and so we need to be ready.


  240. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Absolutely, it's part of emergency preparedness is that, you know, you have to maximize the time you have before it turns from being a situation into actually an emergency. And, like, you know, that kind of philosophy is very acute when you're looking at saving lives in terms of, you know, we have a hurricane that's coming. Like, the first 24, 48 hours really matters. So in emergency preparedness, you're trying to maximize the time you have to get ready and think about a couple potential outcomes that might happen and make sure that we've done an analysis and that we're ready to support the government.


  241. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Correct. Correct.


  242. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  243. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    We were organizing situational updates on the situation, so they had the latest information, because, of course, Ministers are having their own discussion with provincial colleagues. They need the latest information in talking about actions that are being taken.


  244. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Correct, where we're convening a larger group of Ministers.


  245. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Well, like I think as I said in my testimony earlier, when we convened the first Cabinet committee meeting on Safety, Security and Emergencies, we're midway through the next week after the weekend in Ottawa. We have a situation, a blockade in Coutts and an occupation in Ottawa, and we have no fidelity over how this situation's going to get resolved. So, you know, there's a need to support Ministers in coming together and having a conversation about that, and what, you know, are the range of things that the government might want to do or to think about to help bring the situation to a resolution.


  246. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  247. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Well, I think there we are in the middle of the second week. If I -- like, the 9th, the 10th, we're in the middle of the second week. You know, the -- we don't -- the situation has gotten worse. There's uncertainty about how it will be resolved and need to begin engaging and providing advice to the Prime Minister and others about the range of options that the government could consider at that point in time.


  248. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    So I think there -- it's actually in the meeting on the 10th, if I may.


  249. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  250. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  251. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  252. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  253. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  254. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  255. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, yeah.


  256. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Yeah, I was just going to say that actually. If you scroll down, you will see that the Commissioner of the RCMP that weekend, this is the 12th that we're talking about?


  257. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    You know, she's describing in that meeting, you know, new and different -- either situations that have gotten worse or additional situations, like, Cornwall, I think is there a reference to North Bay, and the situations that we're seeing over that weekend, yeah.


  258. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  259. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    I don't know that I can answer that.


  260. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Thank you.


  261. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  262. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  263. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  264. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Right. So I’ve sort of described kind of the ways in which it could not go well, right, in -- you know, we have this ---


  265. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    --- this large group of people and that so what were the kinds of things we did. So you know, we are, for example, preparing to be able to bring Ministers together very quickly and organize an ad hoc Cabinet Committee meeting, whether that would have been Safety, Security and Emergencies or the Incident Response Group, right. So there’s some very practical things that you’re doing to make sure that you have the ability to reach Ministers in short order and bring that group together, you know, if there's a need to do something. So you’re kind of thinking along those lines. But at that point, I think the scenario that I -- that I was most worried about was the potential for, you know, violence or, you know, a clash with law enforcement and that there might be -- somebody might get hurt, or a loss of life. And in that case, that’s a Public Order situation and law enforcement would deal with the first line of response to that, but it’s happening in the nation’s capital. There might be a need for, you know, a government or several government Ministers to say something about that, and so just thinking about if that situation materializes, who’s on first, who’s on second, is everybody clear about roles and responsibilities, how would we get Ministers together. Now, there’s a theoretical risk that it could be worse than that, but we just need to know what the machinery is and what we would do and, you know, kind of what happens in the first four hours, first 12 hours, and that’s the kinds of things that you’re thinking about.


  266. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  267. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)



  268. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    No, there’s -- there’s nothing to do.


  269. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Right. So this kind of situation could arise at any time, right, and so we do have existing structures that kick in, but you know, it is COVID. People are working remotely. Ministers are not all necessarily located in Ottawa. Do we know where everybody is, can we get the Ministers, Prime Ministers together quickly if that need arises.


  270. Jacquie Bogden, DM (GC-PCO)

    Thank you, sir.