Michael Duheme
Michael Duheme spoke 306 times across 1 day of testimony.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I swear -- I can swear on a religious document.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The Bible.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Full name is Michael Robert Duheme. Duheme is spelled D-U-H-E-M-E.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Good morning.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
True.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I have, and it's accurate.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
My understanding it has been reviewed those two individuals.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I can. I don't have the exact page because I was given the copy this morning from counsel, from DOJ, but it does refer to police agencies and jurisdiction. And the -- my understanding is that counsel -- Commission Counsel had requested this information. And we did - - when we went through the validation process is what was written in there is a standard operating procedure that was not in force at that unit at the time. So we just wanted to clarify that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm assuming so, yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Based on the copy I was given, yes.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I'm responsible for federal policing. Federal policing program within the RCMP has about 5,000 people assigned to the program. Our mandate is to investigate national security, such as foreign actor interference, terrorism, ideologically motivated violent extremists. We also investigate transnational service and organized crime. We are also responsible at the border between the ports of entry, and we also have a protective policing mandate, which ensures protection to certain incoming dignitaries or the Prime Minister, Chief Justice, the Governor General and others that are appointed by the Minister. And they also have our intelligence in international policing that reports into federal policing. So my role on the convoy from the onset really, we were looking at it through a lens of protective policing. That was our -- so that was our core mandate when it all started. As the resources ask started and this -- as this grew, the Commissioner appointed me to be the point person for the organization to coordinate the assistance that were provided to OPS throughout. I was part of the gold command structure when it was formed. My responsibility throughout from the beginning was to ensure that the Commissioner had the right information to brief up at the various briefings at the DM level, at the Ministerial level at the ERC and the coordination of resources from across the country that needed to be brought in, I had a team looking after that. So really, the assistance to the OPS and support of resources, regardless of the skillset was under my responsibility.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, the gold, silver, bronze structure, and it's well explained in the report, but basically, the gold structure is really providing the strategic direction to manage the operation. The bronze is really the people who would look at planning the event. And then when you get to the silver, it was actually the people who are actioning the plan that's being done.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Pardon me?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Gold, silver -- sorry, yeah. Silver are actually preparing the strategies that was dictated by the gold command. And as it trickles down to the bronze, bronze are the feet or the boots on the ground, the SMEs that actually action the plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. The one in Ottawa was specific to dealing with the one in Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct. And I just want to correct is when I mentioned 5,000 people, it's not 5,000 in Ottawa. 5,000 federal police employees across the country and posted internationally as well. They're not just uniquely in Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
National Division’s composed of about 700 people. And then when you add the component National Headquarters, probably around, I’m just throwing a guess here, 1,200.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, the protective mandate for the RCMP derives from the RCMP Regulations. We are mandated to protect, on the threat risk assessment base of the Prime Minister, of the Governor General, the Chief of the Supreme Court, visiting dignitaries, Presidents from other countries, that would fall -- it would fall under our responsibility, or any other appointed official by the Minister of Public Safety. We also have -- within that protective, we also have an intel unit that feeds in to prepare -- to better prepare our posture and respond to any incidents. Here in Ottawa, we are looking at about 400 people that are assigned full-time; and when I say 400, it’s all categories of employees assigned to protective policing.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, one of the things -- and I forgot to mention the people that we protect is also elected officials, that fall under our responsibility. So it was bringing a coordination in ensuring the secure transport of the elected official to Parliament on the Monday, the 31st -- I believe it was 31st -- to it. Coordinating routes to get into the area. There was also concerns with demos that would creep up at Rideau Hall or at the Prime Minister’s residence, which required us to mobilize additional resources to make sure that we had the right posture to address any incidents that would occur during the arrival of the convoy, or while they were there.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
In this instance, our POUs were not dispatched to clear the roads or to assist in any ways. We work and thought about police service, to ensure what were the egress and ingress with regards to Parliament Hill. Without -- obviously with the dynamic and the fluidity of what was going on downtown, a lot of the routes could not be guaranteed, so that’s something that we had to factor in and had to shift our plans as we went forward.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Coordinate but also with the elevated -- the intelligence that we had, the increase we sort of set were required to ensure the protection on the different sites that we -- that we are responsible for.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, we did.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, there’s several structures in place when it came to intel within the organization. So we had ideologically motivated criminal intelligence team that were looking at it more from a national scope as to what was going on and providing strategic threat advisory bulletins; I think there’s eight in total that went out throughout the legal protests. And we also had our Protective Intelligence Unit that was really gathering intelligence to help us with our protective posture, but it doesn’t neglect the fact that the information gathered, and under the PIU Unit would be shared with other agencies. And eventually, early on, I think it was on the 28th or the 29th, pardon me, we did create what is known as a Combined Intelligence Group that would bring together people from different law enforcement organizations within the Ottawa area, such as you’d have OPS, OPP, Sureté du Québec, Service de police de la ville de Gatineau, that would be present and that’s meant to bring to a hub together so that everybody can share the information that they have. Because it’s not just the RCMP working on a block of information; every organization’s working on the information and it’s coordinated through that Combined Intelligence Group. As this grew and there’s more and more increase resources being brought in, we stood up -- at the National Headquarters, we stood up another combined group really to coordinate the intel from a national perspective so that we could prepare the Commissioner with a picture of what’s going across the country. I’ll factor that in too, you’ve heard the Hendon report several times, that was a report from the OPP that was also used to help the CIG, the Combined Intelligence Group, in the analysis of all the intel that’s coming in. So there’s several players involved when you look at a combined intelligence unit or group.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I believe it was out of the NCRCC, National Capital Region Command Centre, that was located -- it’s located in Orleans -- which is located in Orleans.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not as far as I can recall.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, and that’s correct. The RCMP did have a larger footprint in the Ottawa region in the year 2000s leading up to 2014, after the attacks on Parliament Hill. There was a review that was done. And I should just say that prior to that, the organization, the RCMP was responsible for the security of Parliament Hill, outside component of House of Commons and Senate, not the interior. The interior was managed by -- House of Commons had their own security, Senate had their own, and the RCMP was responsible for the outside grounds. At that time also, we had more resources. When it came to our protective policing mandate, we had more clients to protect at the time, and then over years, there’s a different approach on the way we did business that reduced actually our footprint when it came to protective policing, as well as patrols of the embassies. Back to the -- our responsibility on the Hill, we had an excess of 120 people there that were assigned to the Hill on a permanent basis to ensure the security. When the attacks occurred, there was a review done of the entire security posture on the Hill, and that’s when a new legislation was created to create the Parliamentary Protective Service, who the RCMP was responsible leading the integration of security of different units that were there. What we saw after a year and a half being there, it was decided to put a plan forward that realizing that the job that’s being performed on Parliament Hill was not a policing function, but more security function, there’s a transition that was done with PPS with the accord of the both speakers to reduce the footprint of the RCMP. Currently, legislatively, the only position that requires an RCMP member is the position of director. So when you talk about shift, and resources, and footprint, there’s a significant one that happened recently. Protective Policing, when it came to our clients, happened before that. So if I may, when you look at the dynamics prior to this change, the RCMP, when it was responsible for the Hill, looked after all the planning of the different events that took place on the Hill. This is prior to the creation of PPS. And we would work jointly with Ottawa Police Service, being a demo that’s going through the streets of Ottawa and would land on Parliament Hill, then it becomes -- it’s shifted over from OPS to us, and we worked jointly on that, in regards with the plans, the preparation, to respond to any demos that are going on Hill. When PPS came in to effect, I was the first director, and what we were looking at is the PPS becomes distinct and basically not separate from the RCMP, because the RCMP still had a role to play, but must be distinct. So the planning was now done from PPS. Since 2015, every event that was done on the Hill was being done from PPS, and not necessarily RCMP. We assisted in the beginning, but now they’re completely autonomous when they’re planning for events on the Hill.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So we still work jointly with the OPS. I can give you an example of any event that would occur on Parliament Hill, PPS would have the lead for planning the event on the Hill, but you would also have -- OPS would be responsible for whatever is in the street, and we’d be involved from a protective lens as to what’s going on. Will there be any road closures? Will there be -- what’s the impact on our mandate? But there’d still be a lead role for OPS, but organisations will come together.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Definitely. Any significant event in Ottawa, I mentioned earlier, the National Capital Region Command Centre, that's that coordination hub where we have various partners at the table to understand the dynamics that are going on on a daily basis, or even hourly. And then sometimes it allows us, it allows emergency personnel, such as fire departments, paramedics, to adjust their response according to the intelligence that comes into this hub. But on a day-to-day basis, yes, there's liaison going on with OPS, with the Ottawa Police Service, but it's more -- there's liaison going on, but less of a reliance to rely on OPS on a daily basis, but it's only when events are in the area that's when we come together, NCRCC, and make sure that everybody is informed so that we can properly plan. Everyone can properly plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, as I mentioned earlier, I was looking at it purely from the lens of our mandate when it comes to protective policing, how is this going to impact the people that we're mandated to protect, does PPS need any assistance as this moved forward. So it's really through a lens of not a demo but really how is it going to impact us on our service delivery when it comes to protective. Early discussions I had with OPS on the matter, there seems to be no concerns whatsoever, good relationships with the organiser, organisers, and there was no need for us to question the relationship they had with them. And we felt comfortable, well I felt comfortable that the Ottawa Police Service had things well in hand negotiating with the organisers and having a discussion on how this would unfold in Downtown Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Yes.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct, and there was no additional ask for resources as they were planning when the convoy was going to arrive in Ottawa. So we -- I was of the feeling that they had everything under control, and as I said, if there's no request for resources, I know in incidents, situations like this that the organisation on the intel side come together to share that information, but I didn't have any concerns because I was of the opinion that they had everything in hand.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can I add to that? An important factor that we have to remember is that requesting resources, be it from Quebec or Ontario, the RCMP still has a mandate to fulfill in those provinces, and mobilising resources, you have to find the resources. We have ongoing investigations that we cannot stop, so it's finding that right balance of how many resources can we release to make sure keep the lights on to ensure that we are still on mandate of what we're doing in the respective provinces. So it's not just -- it's easy to say we need 50 additional people, but then we have to look at who is releasable in the divisions based on the functions of the responsibilities that they're -- that they have right now. So, thanks.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The total number at the end, and it -- in total numbers we had in excess of 1,100 people, 1,100 people, employees dedicated to either the Ottawa Police Service assistance or our protective mandate. And I can break it down even more in the sense that a little over 650 police officers to assist the Ottawa Police Service, and close to 210 to assist us in our protective mandate. So that's a significant lift. I know there's been a lot of numbers circling around, from 30, why don't we respond with 50. There's also that 250 that was raised. The 250, I just wanted to clarify that. It was -- it wasn't 250 dedicated to OPS, Ottawa Police Service, it actually was a mix-up. We went -- we tallied up everybody that was sworn in, and some of the people that were sworn in was actually in support of the protective mandate, and not necessarily supporting OPS, but still available if they were required.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Oh.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, that’s accurate.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, Mark Flynn's Assistant Commissioner responsible for National Security Program as well as our Protective Policing Program.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, the first one is "Peter", referring to the Chief -- Chief Sloly from Ottawa Police Service -- "...said he's going to ask double of what he needs." And the second asterisk is, "Planners from our shop integrated Planning cell. What [...] resources [are] required?" Because we're talking at point have an integrated planning cell, what type of expertise do we have to bring? And this -- these notes stem from on the page before that, I believe it was Steve Bell that was briefing us, providing an update and that was the comment that was shared by Steve Bell.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Exactly.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
If I could have the page before that because I don't have my notes, but I'm quite certain it reflects a call with Chief Steve Bell. It's written down below, yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, that's okay. I ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I'm okay with that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So the way I interpret it, the numbers that were provided publicly and through the letter that went to the Minister, the 1800 ask, is that really reflective of the needs. Because, again, I go back to what the Commissioner said earlier, throughout this process, there was no plan to support or to demonstrate to the organization what skillsets and resources are required to support an operational plan and to support Ottawa Police Service. So I took it when this was briefed to me the first time, the 1800 police officer or 1,000 police officers, 600 Public Order Teams, 100 support staff, I took it that is that what they're asking, considering that Deputy Chief Steve Bell says he's asking to double what he needs. So I wasn't sure if that was an ask, and it was starting to sound like a broken record where, without a plan, both us and the OPP were kind of struggling as to what types of resources do you actually need to assist in addressing the issue in Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Around that date where we brought the SMEs, the subject matter experts together to start reviewing what they had and start building a plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That was one of the objectives is to nail down what was required for Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It would merely be speculation on my part how it could have been handled if this was put together sooner. Could it have -- would it have come too an end sooner? Perhaps, but I -- I'm not in a position to say that it would considering everything that was going on.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
And the other thing to factor in is it's one thing to look at the plan, but again I go back to what I mentioned earlier, when it comes time to mobilise resources from across the country, it's not only challenging but sometimes resources don't get in the next day, it takes a couple of days before you get there.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
To my knowledge, sir, there was no consultation, one, because of the confidence aspect because the drafting -- they’re looking at -- they’re putting measures into the Act. And the other thing I’d like to highlight is the -- we had a very short turnaround time to get these recommendations or what we thought would be useful for law enforcement, so it was -- it was -- as I recall, it was done strictly internally of the RCMP.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, Adriana Poloz is responsible for our Intel in International Policing Program. So the INSET I referred to earlier on, ideologically motivated criminal intelligence, it -- that reports into her program.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, the request would have gone from -- directly probably from Mike to Adriana on this one.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. And they were probably looking for additional information because the Strategic Threat Advisory Reports that were being shared with government were also being shared for PCO. So those eight documents I mentioned earlier. Might have been a follow up on what was in one of those documents.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The document was shared with them. Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It happens based on some relationships that are built, that they reach directly into the units. Preferably there should be one stop for all requests that come in so we can have at least an idea of what’s going out. But it happens where they reach in directly to the person, ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- and the person will either CC me on a message, or brief me about what the request is.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So honestly, I’d have to go through the document in its entirety, because I think -- I’m not quite sure if we’re into -- when I’m looking at this, Adriana is explaining some of the signs that we’re seeing from IMVE groups from across the country, flags, posters, stickers. But I’d have to go through the entire document. And it’s possible that Adriana would have briefed me before sending it out. But I think one thing that we have to understand is the NSIA -- the RCMP is only one organization that’s providing criminal intelligence to the NSIA. You have the service, ITAC also has a role to play. So the NSIA is getting information before she forms an opinion. I get the brief. Whoever she’s getting information from, other departments as well. So we’re really -- the RCMP is really in the criminal space when we provide that intel.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, like I said, I don’t recall if Adriana briefed me beforehand. And when I’m looking at it, they did produce a product with regards to IMVEs, but I see some of the paragraphs are coming from that product. So did she cut and paste the information from product that was already provided? Just a reminder here, the key -- here are the key messages? Or was it a complete different one? But yeah, no, I wouldn’t be able to confirm if she’d briefed me, other than just being CC’d on a message. But I’m led to believe that it’s a cut and paste from the document that they had produced in the past.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’ll cover that, Commissioner. So one important note, when that request came in, I was sharing an office with Deputy Commissioner Chris Harkins, who is part of the gold command with me. And the request went - - to my knowledge, the request went directly from Windsor Police Service to our folks in Ontario for Public Order Unit or Tactical Support Group, and with everything that comes with it. so the first deployment of members -- and this was to assist with the blockade in Windsor. We sent a total of 64 members initially, and then another 50 members to help contain the grounds once they started moving with the tactical support group. So -- and it was led entirely by, I believe, the OPP? The OPP.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that’s correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It is. And faster because they’re already mobilized with all their equipment in one single area.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
What date is this?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay. So that would refer to on February 18th in the early hours of the morning before activating our operational plan, we were able -- we, I say the both silver, bronze, able to set up a control access zone, which is a perimeter. And Ottawa Police Service had the lead on that and used existing authorities when they put it in, so we did not use the Act specifically for the control access zone. They do it during the Canada Day. They do it during other events in Ottawa, so they use existing authorities to put the fence up, to put the perimeter up.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, but saying it and doing it is two different things.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
M'hm.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would have to check the minutes, but I just have Minister's call, normally it would be Minister Mendocino. Sometimes I'll -- right, and I see Blair a little further down. That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Saying that, "way more traffic..." Can't make out the last word. Way more traffic.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think that's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
According to my notes, correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Key points that I want to remember, brief up.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Feel harassed. Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Short-hand written.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
"Concern of Ottawa central citizens essential care..."
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
"...Counter Protest".
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
M'hm.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would assume so.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Let me just read it here. I'm not quite sure if that was Public Safety or Peter Sloly.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm guessing if it was the clerk, it's because it's Public Safety.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Ambassador Bridge.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
"Feel[...] organized [...] Ambassador Bridge stretched OPP incremental success OPS working at incremental very small things Chief 48 [to] 76 hours to gather the troops."
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Remind me of that date?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not necessarily that they were doing a good job.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Well, that's what we're being shared.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
But still, it was difficult to understand what those incremental gains were, were very small things that were done.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, and I'm not quite sure. There was probably other people on the line and I just said the clerk said we need to take this over. I'm not necessarily speaking ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Rarely do I brief the clerk alone. "We need to take this over, do they know what this means" And, again, I think there's a lack of understanding of how it works when you look in that jurisdiction when a comment like that is made, just like when ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Right.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
My understanding.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I see Minister's brief 1300 hours 3 points, yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I am -- they are being briefed on discussions that we've been having with OPS or that OPS would share with us. So one of the concerns the Commissioner said earlier, how is this going to end? When it's going to end was less frequently. For anything we had on the planning side, we would brief up to the Ministers to inform them that there is something that we don't always have access to, but there's discussions that -- there's plans ongoing.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I will defer to the Commissioner on this one, but my dealings with the Deputy Ministers and the Ministers, never once did they ask for the operational plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
They -- we kept them updated on the work that's being done. Commissioner, I'm not quite sure if you need to add?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
What date is that?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Okay. So it's: "Pre meet SSE. Assistance [with] Alberta." Probably key things that we had looked at for the pre meet with SSE.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'm not sure if it was internally or with the deputy ministers, I'm not sure.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, not all. What that as is trying to muster the people together that had the expertise, that had the knowledge, that have worked on several key incidents, and in this case is the result of what came out of the Ipperwash Inquiry to help them.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, it is to help the OPS, the Ottawa Police Service.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We were an assistance to Ottawa Police Service.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I'm not quite sure why I put the "pivoting for political reasons", I'm not quite sure why I put it there.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I'm not aware, fully aware of the Ipperwash. I didn't read the report. And what I can say is that what was offered there from the OPP was just assistance with their person who worked on the Ipperwash Inquiry for lessons learned. That's all I can say. I can't go in for because it was political reasons. All I know is they were offering up resources for -- to assist.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can you scroll up before that, before Minister Blair -- Minister Mendicino? Okay. And the question, sorry?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That would be Minister O'Regan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's what I wrote down on the comments that were made, yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That was in a call -- the pressure to release additional resources, that's something that I put down, in a sense that it was in relation to the Windsor bridge where there was concerns with the duration of the blockade, and I just put down "seek additional resources" ready to give the assistance required for it.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
"Different phases coming to the realization that [we're] not responding fast enough." And what Minister Mendicino was alluding to is we had these slow rolls, more specifically in the Province of Ontario, that, without having the right information, they were able to set up before we even knew that they were going to do so.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I am not -- it doesn't ring a bell.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can you just go up for a sec? That would be from someone else.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That would've been the meeting, I wrote down OPP and OACP, a meeting that -- I believe it was a meeting with the -- that was chaired by the Commissioner of the OPP with representatives of the Ontario Association Chiefs of Police Association.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Other than the RCMP was present, I'm not aware of anyone else.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That was my note, correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
He could have made a comment during the meeting saying that he was not satisfied with the work that's been done by Ottawa Police Service.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Most of these notes are not word for word what was said. Sometimes ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- just a quick recap of ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that was in reference to the overall blockades that were taken across -- that was going on across the country. There was some -- they were not displeased, but did not understand the flow -- speed and flow and what it takes when you're dealing with a demo ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- and that came across that they were not happy with how we were handling the different demos.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
At the time, yes, it was Jody Thomas.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what I meant by that, to tell you the truth. Measures putting out.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, no, I don't have any more comments on that. I'm reading it and I ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- I'm not quite sure what it was meant.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, Kelly Bradshaw was an RCMP member responsible for Financial Crime Unit.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, it was stood up around January 28th, I believe.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. The RCMP and many other partners.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not just intelligence. It’s a coordination -- it’s a command centre that ensures coordination with different partners throughout the table. As I mentioned earlier, you could have Ottawa City Transport that’s there, paramedics, fire department, Service de Police de Gatineau, Sûreté du Québec, and other partners that are there so that’s a coordinated approach every time there’s an action taken on the scene.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that’s correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Through our Combined Intelligence Group. That’s my understanding.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. And I think the sharing started actually before that, but I believe it started before that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can I just add something here, sir? This is the first time I’ve seen the document.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t know who participated in the calls. I understand reading through the lines the RCMP -- but this is the very first time I’ve seen this document.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wasn’t there, and I don’t want to question what’s in there, but I wasn’t there. Some of the things that I see, I can validate it through other intel that I had from other -- but I don’t even know who the representatives of the RCMP was on this call.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not at that time.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, no. I do recall seeing documents saying that they were planning to stay until the 31st.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
And there’s another document that I’m not quite sure if it’s before they arrived or after they arrived that they didn’t -- they didn’t want to leave unless they met with the Prime Minister, so I’m not quite sure if it was before they arrived or after they arrived.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s my understanding of the group that were in the downtown core.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say yes. Every situation is different, but there comes a point that you have to assess and reassess your positioning and plan, I should say.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. Can I know what that document is, the entitlement of the -- the title and the date?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, it could. A police action sometimes could generate a reaction.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It could, but it’s also speculative.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It could like it could not inflame the crowd, so it’s one or the other.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, that’s where the coordination takes place.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I did not see the plan as it was rolling in.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
What I will say is that when I was initially briefed on the file, I wasn’t aware of any stoppage in the downtown core, more of a slow roll. And if that’s changed over the course of negotiations with the organizers, I wasn’t made aware of it. But I will agree that any intel on the situation downtown would be shared at the -- under the NCRCC and the combined intelligence group.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I recall a conversation, and it was reported to me, not that it was -- it was briefed to me by, I forget who, but they were intending on launching an operation on the weekend of the 4th, and the concern that was brought to my attention is that there doesn't seem to be a plan, no one was aware of what's going on, and there's no maintenance after -- there's no maintenance portion after you've cleared the area. That's what was reported to me.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I do recall being briefed on that; correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It is.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, I agree.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I agree.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I didn't cross paths with ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- Chief Sloly.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I heard of his work with the Toronto Police Service.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wasn't aware of his mandate when he arrived.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I agree.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, agreed.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No doubt.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Within the existing resources?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say that's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Based on what was there on the weekends, the numbers of people that were there, I think is -- to me it was clear that they needed additional resources - --
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- based on the numbers we saw on the weekends.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I did see the last plan that went forward.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
At the gold command structure within the incident command response, did see the plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I'm not aware of that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Fair.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I wouldn't define it as a national ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- security threat.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Two things, sir. This here is -- we're not -- I'm not aware of any political discussion at that level. When we got the request to have RCMP's tactical support group to head down to Windsor, we were told that there was plan and they were going to initiate the plan the following day, I believe, or the two days, so we -- the request actually went directly into our folks who are in Toronto, and we mobilized a troop that was up here in Ottawa to get them down there to assist.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I think we might have been part of the consultation process. I'm not 100 percent certain.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I believe we were ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- but I'm not 100 percent sure.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That's correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not exactly all the intricacies of his meetings. As I said earlier, I believe they're involved in the consultation process early on, this demonstrates that they are, but I'm not aware of all the meetings they had.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would have been briefed every second day of some of the progress that's going on.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The way I'm reading it is currently we need to execute judicial orders to seize any fundings, currently, the way it stands, before the invocation of the Act.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. We were the conduit of information from the OPS and OPP to the financial services.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. Denis Beaudoin was the primary. I’m not aware who Kelly Hughes is, but I’ll take your word for it.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct. There’s two processes here. The RMCP would obtain information from OPS and OPP on relevant criminal investigation that they have and would submit those names to the financial services, and the other one is that the OPS and OPP provided some license plate numbers, some names of company that our team had to validate, and validation process was no different than investigation, go through data banks so we can ascertain that that vehicle that belongs to whoever is still there, and the person is still there, and then the information would be sent to the financial services. Another step to confirm the identity of the individual is -- when we were able to call the individuals to let them know that we do have a license plate, we know they’re here, and that the information is going to be passed on to financial services. We did that when we could. Some people responded that they didn’t want to leave. Their names went forward. Some people responded that they couldn’t leave, in which their names did not go forward to the financial services.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I haven’t.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We have the responsibility to identify the individuals and transfer the information to the financial services. Financial services, it was up to them to decide if they would freeze any assets in their holdings.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not quite -- they did, but I’m not quite sure if it’s written in the orders.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Sorry, I just want to clarify. You are right in the sense that anything they had in their holdings, they were to inform the Commissioner of the RCMP. That’s in the Act.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That would be corporal.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I’m not aware of it. And we did not write the order. And the responsibility of freezing any assets is the responsibility of the bank. We don’t tell them what to freeze or how to go about it.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, because the order - - when the order came into effect, there’s no procedure, or policy, or ways of doing things. So it was left up to the RCMP working with the financial services to try and figure out, and that’s why with the documents that were disclosed, there is an annex there as to the form that we would use to submit to the banks.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not aware of the conversation or the exchanges, but I would imagine that the financial services would reach out to their legal team to determine what’s in scope, what’s not in scope, just as we would do if we’re not certain with a certain element of the order. We would be reaching out to our legal team to seek clarification.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It did so. And insurance companies as well. Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It did. And we have to be mindful that our folks, the team had less than 24 hours to put everything together, and when you look at the timeline for the convoy, the very first packages that were provided to financial services was, I think, on the 17th, and on the 21st, we had informed the financial services that there was nobody left. So it was only stretched out on four days. Very little time to get organized and to get a proper process in place. So both financial institutions and the RCMP did the best they can, came up with something that was suitable for both.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s correct. To disrupt and what not. During -- it was such a short time frame. It was primarily used to deter the people and disrupt.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
“There’s enormous frustration…” And I might mistake my own handwriting. But: “There’s enormous frustration with [law enforcement]. Whatever promises were not fulfilled” And then I’m not quite sure. “… move around.” “Protest moves around.” I’m not quite sure what I meant by that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
“…State and Police although the lines were crossed several times”
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, this was -- these were notes taken from a meeting. And when I said “separate State and Police although the lines were crossed several times”, what I meant by that was not by elected official, but more having representatives from Public Safety portfolio, not at the elected level, people from PCO reached in directly to the Chief of Police saying what we could do. And I just didn’t think that -- I think it was a law enforcement matter and anything to do with briefing Public Safety or the PCO would be up to the Commissioner and keep the departments out of it.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was one meeting that they reached out. We -- I attended, the Commissioner attended, and it was with Mr. Sloly, as well as other people on the phone. I just thought it blurred the communication lines and what you’d see is you saw the mayor gave them the letter directly from Minister Mendicino, and the question of resources or assistance should have been dealt with at the policing level and then we bring it up to our respective governments if needed.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t say -- I use that term, but it would be more relevant if it was an elected official, which wasn’t the case. I just thought that not to blur the lines of communication, it would have been best if the Commissioner -- and this is my opinion -- that the Commissioner was the point of contact for any government, federal government department, to brief.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It varied. It varied from shift to shift.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, okay.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So if I may add something, the question of getting the right people together to review what’s been done stems from an ask that came out for 1,800 people. And that’s when their SMEs came together, say, “Okay, let’s get together, let’s have a look at the plan, exactly what we need, how many people we need, what skillsets we need,” and that’s when -- that’s when -- and then the ICC morphed in. But one of the reasons was exactly as to what resources they need based on the plan they have.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. And I’ll go to what was said previously, is that there was a number that was thrown out, 1,800; no-one knew where this number came from and no-one knew what skillsets were required, what type of individuals we’re looking for, and they had 1,000 police officers, some POU units, but what type of police officers do you need. That’s what prompted a review of that ask in the plan itself.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We were already mobilizing some of our folks because we know this was going to be big, but we wanted to wait till what the ask is from that plan.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
From the review team.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was a collective effort based on these subject matter experts.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
There -- I believe there is one, yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, same here.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not aware of the full process other than they had to be sworn in.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not aware.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I -- there’s nothing that was brought to my attention that it was stalling the process, if you wish. My understanding is that things were going smoothly when it came to the swearing-in process.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I’m not aware of that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I’m not aware of that.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, I see -- I see the landscape shifting. Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I haven’t read it.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I know Dennis very well.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. They -- usually when there’s a summit, you have to identify a location where people can demonstrate and be heard.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
In some of the major events they would, yeah. It’s different from one major event to another.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would say that since the creation of the Parliamentary Protective Service, who has a mandate of Parliament Hill and the 34 precinct buildings, they’ve been working hand in hand with Ottawa Police Service since the withdrawal of the RCMP on the Hill. And it’s been going fine. And Ottawa Police Service has managed several large-scale events throughout the years where you’d have 100,000 people in the streets on Canada Day. You look at the work they’d done with -- they did with Rolling Thunder when it came in afterwards. They did an excellent job there. So I don’t necessarily agree it’s an organizational issue. Law enforcement is law enforcement. I think it’s been shown throughout the last couple years that it’s been working. It’s been working. And I’m not convinced that if we were there things would have been different. We -- and I wish to remind you that our initial participation when this all started, we were really -- we were involved in the planning process, but looking at it from our protective lens and not necessarily the demo lens.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not my mandate.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
They do have powers to arrest, but not the same as a police officer.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
They do.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Most of the times it’s the police of jurisdiction because Ottawa is the police of jurisdiction for any criminal matters in Ottawa.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It would be different. That falls under our mandate.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Inside the buildings?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes. Even -- I would say even they would need permission from the Speaker of the House if they have to enter any part of the buildings, I believe. I believe.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The wind-down of the organization ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I’m not quite sure if decommissioning, but to your point is -- and you’ve said that. Because it’s not a law enforcement role, that’s why I initiated the review in 2016 and started looking at, okay, I think it’s time to reduce our footprint because it’s not a law enforcement responsibility. It’s a security responsibility that PPS is doing very well at. And that’s what prompted us to reduce. And as I mentioned earlier in your statement, under the legislation the Director’s position is an RCMP member, but other than that, it’s -- we have no one else.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
They report up to the Speakers. Initially when it was created, because we had a crew of people there, the MOU that I believe is still in effect had a role the RCMP would overlook at the integration portion of the securities -- of the different security units that are there. But I’d say the integration is fully done. It’s been seven years now, so everything is reporting to the Speakers right now.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don’t know what they had footprint-wise when this was going on. I’m not aware of the exact number.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah. You know, I know they were in the NCRCC during the entire event. That was, again, to coordinate anything that needed to be coordinated on the Hill. But I’m not quite sure of their involvement with regards to the planning process. I’m hinting more towards no than anything else.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
There’s a lot of partners that were in there.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not necessarily.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not aware of rations. And that’s something of the information that doesn’t always make its way up to me.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yes, they did.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
They do not have -- they do not have any, I would say tactical teams like we have, and we did provide a Public Order Unit to assist.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think we -- yeah, I think -- there was two Public Order teams involved, and I'm not quite sure if it's the OPP. The RCMP had one of them, and I think it's OPP or York, but I'm not sure.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
My understanding is that the RCMP and the OPP had Public Order Units on standby ready to deploy if required.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Inside -- on the grounds or inside.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It is.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The Hill itself? I'm not quite -- I wouldn't ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I'd say the people in it, the people that work there more than the Hill.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Can, yes, but that's the reason why you have an NCRCC or an Integrated Command Centre where people from the different organisations come together and the flow of information is shared there and then bounced back to the respective organisation.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I -- is that directed to me?
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I'll lead off. You've got to be mindful that even if you have 120 resources we do have a Parliamentary mandate with regards to protective policing and the Hill. So it doesn't mean that you would have 120 resources at your availability to deploy elsewhere, you still have to maintain that mandate ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
--- and if takes 75 -- maybe you can 10 or 15 people away from that, they're on their days off, but that exact number I'd have to dig deep -- a little deeper on that one.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Any additional resources always comes in handy.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
At your disposal, Commissioner.
-
Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
-
Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No, I'd be guessing. I would be guessing. I have no idea.
-
Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not at all. No, not at all. We're -- in Windsor, our folks are still focussed on the federal mandate.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not to my knowledge.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It's not -- because if it's a federal location it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a federal concern or issue or policing matter. We've heard that a couple of times here with the NCC grounds it should be RCMP, but again, here in Ottawa, the police of jurisdiction for criminal matters in the City of Ottawa is Ottawa Police Service.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
That’s correct.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We focused on the freezing of -- well, providing the right information to the banks, to the financial services, to freeze the accounts. The insurance, yes, that was a possibility. One of the concerns we had is that if you freeze the insurance, where does the truck go if someone is ready to leave? Puts us in a position. So we didn’t really look at that. Really focused on identifying the people, validating who was there, and getting the information to the financial services.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The discretion is something. And you have to remember, as I said earlier, that we had 24 hours to figure this out, as well as the financial services. So we went with the one that we figured would have the greatest impact.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The final plan? I mean, I think the result speaks for itself. Minimal force used in the execution and over a couple of days, two days and a half, we were able to successfully clear the sites. I should mention that there’s approximately seven or eight sites where the trucks were parked in the downtown area, and by the time we got to the first one would be Waller and Nicholas. By the time we were done that, we took care of Sussex and Welling -- Sussex and Rideau? Sussex and Rideau. And then the third site was in front of Parliament Hill. And by the time we were done with Parliament Hill, all the other sites had -- the people had left. So I think the result speak for itself. There’s no injuries, very little use of force, and it was done in a coordinated fashion and very professionally.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was -- I should say it was a phased in approach, in a sense. And you heard the Commissioner mention about the role of the PLTs. On that Thursday night, February 17th -- February 17th was -- there was an increased presence in the control access zone, or what became the control access zone. There’s increased communication with the people who are there informing them what the Act is, giving them an opportunity to leave. And it's only Friday morning with a light snow on the ground that we started operationalizing. So what would happen is we go to one site, and this is typical procedures where tell the people to leave, they don't leave, then use the right amount of force necessary. But then once if we have to arrest -- people leave, if people left, it was good. If we had to arrest people and remove them, tow trucks would come in, tow the vehicles and impound them.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
It was for the first three sites for sure.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We would have had to explore other options.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
There weren't many options.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
If I may add, and it's -- I believe it was Chief Sloly who shared this at either briefing or Steve Bell, when you're referring to a lot of people, they were in a situation that in some instances they couldn't perform an arrest on an individual because the OPS would be swarmed by people around the police car, and the only tactical option would be just to release the individual and get out of there. So the control access zone that was in place on Friday morning, that was a benefit to our operations in the sense that Friday morning, there's no one that was entering that -- kind of the control access zone other than the people that were already there, if they're not allowed to leave, not allowed to come back, so that limited. And the fact that the work that was being done with regards to informing the people what the EA is, I seriously think that deterred people for coming to see what was going on, on the Fridays and Saturdays.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Keep it from growing.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, and the way I wrote it and what was going through my mind was two different things, but I found that having them, and this is my opinion, it's having them to reach directly in kind of blurred the communication, because I've always said -- I haven't seen -- if you look at the Police Act, the Minister of Public Safety, Solicitor General, the Commissioner of OPP all have a role to play when something's unfolding in Ontario. And I just think that having federal representative reaching in just blurred the lines as to exactly requests -- how the requests should be funneling in. I viewed it as the Commissioner's ultimately responsible for the RCMP, and any briefing of government departments should be done, but this is my own opinion, should be done to ensure that we keep each other in the right lanes and whatnot.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
No ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't remember exactly what meeting. I'd have to go through my notes, but it was one where we're with Chief Sloly and other people around the table, because, obviously, Public Safety and PCO wanted to talk to Mr. Sloly. But I don't recall everybody who was on that call.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I think that was the only one because as of around the 12th of February, I broke off and was assigned fulltime to the -- for the RCMP side of the convoy. So I think that was the only meeting.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Not only just -- not only law enforcement, but financial services as well had to figure out how we're going to process with all this.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Yeah, and I said “discretion” because I’m not familiar with the exact language that’s in the order -- or the regs. If they had to, I’m not quite sure. Our responsibility was to provide that information to the financial services and then they -- they had -- I’m not going to say “an obligation”, but they were the ones responsible for deciding if they’re going to freeze it or not based on the information that they might have in their holdings and the information that we had.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
To a certain degree, yes, but I don’t know what the bank had in their holdings with regards to these individuals once we identified them.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So, I ---
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So I’ll lead it off, Commissioner. I’m not a -- I didn’t see the Hendon Report. My understanding is there’s -- there’s national -- there’s national information coming in from different provinces but the Hendon Report -- my understanding of the Hendon Report was really a view of what was going on in the province in Ontario but being fed in from different organizations. That was my understanding of the Project Hendon, so that the OPP was in a position to have a view -- a good understanding of what was going on in the province of Ontario, which they facilitated a lot of the work for the commissioner when she’s briefing downtown because we relied on our partners to provide that situational report when it comes to what was going on in Ontario. So my understanding is it’s really focused on the province but there’s national intelligence that was fed in from events going on across the country.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So we -- sorry, go ahead, Commissioner.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
We do have a team that looks at it from a -- on a monthly basis of different events that are taking place across Canada, and we’ll prepare a document with that. Obviously, when it gets -- when it gets bigger and starts moving, you’d have to look at probably increasing but, on a monthly basis, we do provide a report. Our intel folks do provide a report of what’s going on across the country. And throughout this -- throughout this -- even before they arrived in Ottawa, our ideological-motivated criminal intelligence team did produce some strategic threat advisory just informing people, the community, both law enforcement and the government, as to key things that are going on and some of the things that we’re seeing. And that was fed into a lot of the combined-intelligence group as well.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So, if my memory serves me right, I think there’s 14 different public order units that were deployed to Ottawa -- 16. Okay, there goes my memory. And I think there’s a -- somewhere around 25 or 26 different law enforcement agencies or departments that participated in what took place here. And I do have a list of the different organizations that participated but I don’t have them with me.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
The initial concern, Commissioner, is we were seeing some popping up here and there and that’s why we decided to go within the organization. The first step was to use federal policing members across the country so it has no impact, as the commissioner said, on the frontline policing in those provinces. And again, as the commissioner said, I’m not able to speak on behalf of other law enforcement as to what was that threshold for them where they felt comfortable in releasing a number of their members, so.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I don't either.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
So from an RCMP perspective, we do have a Public Order Unit in the Province of Quebec and we have two units here in Ontario, one in Toronto and one here in National Capital Region. And mindful that this is not a full-time job. These are people that are -- they're on regular duties and then they volunteer to do this type of work. And in the larger divisions there might be one or two Public Order Units. I know that Sûreté du Québec have two or three public units, there is one here to assist us, but it varies, as the Commissioner said, from one agency to another.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
I would add, Commissioner, that I think the whole definition that we find under the Parliament Act with regards to Parliament Hill and the precinct should be revisited, and set those boundaries where there's limited traffic in certain areas of the downtown core of Ottawa. That's something. Other than that, I think the Commissioner covered it. Again, it would be nice if -- I was told that the swearing in process, although I thought it was smooth, I was told that there were some hiccups or bumps on the road, so if there's any way we could do it from a national perspective that would be great too.
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Michael Duheme, D/Comm (GC-RCMP)
Thank you, sir.