Nathalie Drouin – Interventions

S’il vous plaît, s’il vous plaît, soyer bien à l’aise et je vais faire la même chose, des fois je vais répondre en anglais, des fois je répondrai en français.

26-114-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Absolument.

26-114-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Perfect. So let me start with that. So my first role is really to support the Clerk in her role. A little bit like what we call a two-in-the-box model. So on the day-to-day basis, ce que ça veut dire, c’est, entre autres, assurer un leadership au sein du ministère qui est le ministère du Conseil privé. Ensuite, assurer un leadership sur les dossiers qui sont horizontaux, donc dans le développement des politiques, par exemple, assurer une cohérence. Un des pouvoirs que j’ai, c’est celui de convoquer des sous-ministres pour discuter d’enjeux, donc c’est des choses que je fais régulièrement. Je suis souvent appelée aussi à faire de la gestion de crise, qu’on appelle, en anglais, le « issue management ». C’est justement dans ce cadre là que j’ai joué un rôle dans la gestion du convoi dont on va parler cet après-midi. Et j’assure aussi un leadership sur des dossiers horizontaux, par exemple, les dossiers à matière autochtones.

26-117-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

C’est, you know, I’ll say very organic. So my mantra is, I go where the needs are in order to support the Clerk. You know, more instinctively I go where I have strength, competencies and capacities to support her in her main role, advising the Prime Minister and the Cabinet. So this is, you know, how we work. On a weekly basis, we will reassign, you know, where I should put my attention and efforts and what file I should keep under my radar.

26-117-28

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

And the DPM.

26-119-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Starting on the 9th, yes.

26-127-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, maybe, and if you and the Clerk can talk about that thing. Also, the Prime Minister had a call with Premier Ford on the 9th.

26-137-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So maybe you'd like to check that. And maybe just to go back to the take over conversation. I think the Clerk talked a little bit about the fact that, you know, a lot of images from, you know, the Parliament, but it was also an international bridge. It was also port of entries. It was also the federal vaccine mandate. So all the indicators were towards it is, you know, the Federal Government is owning the situation, and yet on the ground, RCMP, for example, didn't have jurisdiction on Wellington Street. We don't have jurisdiction on routes that brings you to the bridge. So it feels that we owned it publicly, but we didn't have jurisdiction to address the situation. So asking ourselves, "What can we do to have jurisdiction and really to support?" on top of, you know, supporting municipalities, supporting provinces, but that was also the type of questions we were asking ourselves.

26-137-13

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah, that’s perfect, maybe just one thing to add. And I think Jackie covered that a little bit this morning, but those options, or suggestions of work of area -- area of work, sorry, were at different stage of their analysis. You know, some were at the really early stage and then we found out that -- you know, for example, blocking the cell towers, do you see that elsewhere in the IRG? That was something that we look at, was just not feasible; we stopped that initiative. So we look at many things but here you don’t really see how in-depth is the analysis on each of one.

26-143-01

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Exact.

26-143-13

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

It can be an idea or it can be something that is very fruitful.

26-143-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I can give you maybe another example that I'm sure you have seen in our documents that at some point, we were looking at the definition of "trade corridor"?

26-147-17

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So that’s one of the things we were looking at. Do we have regulation powers somewhere where we can come and define what is a trading corridor, and then have jurisdiction in trying to do something? So those were the type of things we were looking at under this regulation.

26-147-22

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Exactly.

26-148-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So go back to 2020 with COVID, and maybe we will come to that later. But we did some talk about the Emergency Act and whether or not the conditions were there to trigger the Emergency Act for health purposes and not for Public Order purposes, of course. And this is where I think -- and I was at Justice at that time -- we develop a little bit better understanding of the Act, an act that has never been used since its adoption in 1988. So we develop a little bit better understanding on how it operates, what is the oversight mechanisms, the House, the Joint Committee, this Inquiry, the consultation with the PT, so all the necessary steps to invoke. So this is where I think we develop a little bit more agility with the Act. But coming back to the convoy, from my perspective, the real first time where we start thinking about that was really after the DMOC of February 9 when, you know, as a group, we said we need to look at all potential options. And this is why we -- sorry, we start looking at what kind of tools the Emergency Act can give us, how we -- you know, meeting the thresholds of the Emergency Act. So I really think that for me, anyway, it's -- it was really on February 9 that we started to seriously look at whether or not it was an option.

26-149-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Keep in mind, it was a Sunday.

26-151-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Can I add something on this? As the Clerk said, yes, some tools were used unsuccessfully, unfortunately. Some haven't been tried, but the situation was still there. At the same time, I think it's, in a way, reassuring that a Commissioner, head of the biggest law enforcement agency is still wanting, you know, to use the tools, you still have confidence in her teams to do something. Can you imagine if we have waited for the Commissioner to say, "I'm overwhelmed. It's over. I can't do that." So we wouldn't have been in a situation of threat. We would have been in a situation where the threat would have materialized.

26-163-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

And then maybe just to add, the CSIS assessment in order to trigger powers under the CSIS Act -- so their assessment for the purpose of CSIS Act, not their assessment for the purpose of the Emergency Act.

26-164-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-167-06

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That was not mentioned ---

26-167-10

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- in the invite.

26-167-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So to my knowledge, no. Have to take that with Deputy Minister Michael Vandergrift. And to our knowledge, no. What I can add though is if you look at that Sunday, Mr. Blair did a lot of media relations where he said everything was upon the table including the Emergency Act. So the reality is that provinces, when we started the conversation on the 14th, they were not surprised that the conversation was about a consultation under the Emergency Act.

26-168-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

A regular cabinet.

26-172-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Maybe just to add on this, and you saw Jody Thomas’ request on the 14th regarding that. The idea was not to have a new threat assessment.

26-180-28

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

The idea was really to collect, in an integrative way, everything we have heard, whether it’s from GAC, whether it’s from Transport, CBSA, all those departments that reported what they were seeing on the ground. But the idea was, instead of having a lot of different inputs, and often verbally, to have -- to try to have something in written. So that was really the purpose. Not to develop a new assessment.

26-181-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Exactly.

26-181-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah, I mean it is in the consultation report.

26-183-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

But I put the provinces and territories in three baskets. So you have the supporters, strongly or maybe, lukewarm, and that’s Newfoundland, that’s Ontario, and that’s B.C. And then you have provinces that, especially the ones from the Maritimes, who have expressed, you know, concerns. And the same concerns as we’ve heard from some of our intelligence agencies, that there is a risk that invoking the Emergency Act can inflamate [sic] the situation. And then you have provinces that were very against. And those are the prairies and Quebec.

26-183-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Just to add thought that BC was facing volatile situation in Surrey, however.

26-184-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think the Clerk got it very well, but just to summarize. It’s not because CSIS concludes that within the convoy, however, we know that within the convoy they had individual of interest for them and they have also seen some IMVE that they were following. It’s not because they conclude that not -- no other individuals or groups met the trigger that the convoy as a whole doesn’t represent a serious threat to Canada. So I think we really have to make the difference. They do their assessment to determine under the Act, the purpose of the Act, whether or not some individual or groups represent that. We did an assessment based on what CSIS was telling us in terms of the presence and all the other examples what Finance was telling us, what CBSA -- sorry for all the acronym, but I think you got used to them. And so we made the recommendation and the government made its decision based on the cumulative effect, if I may say.

26-201-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Maybe another way to articulate it or maybe to frame an example, not all potential criminal offences will be followed by CSIS. So let’s say we are in face of potential family violence. This is serious violence, but that doesn’t mean that it is a threshold for CSIS to investigate. So we were in face of a lot of potential criminal offences, but that doesn’t mean that one individual or a group of individuals were giving -- were, you know, meeting the threshold of CSIS.

26-202-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

It was a collective.

26-204-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I’ll say both, really. I mean, when we talk about the threat to economy, the way we measure economy, you know, is one thing but the impact is on workers, is on jobs, is on day to day lives of people. I didn’t say that at the beginning about my credentials but my background is really on enforcement and white collar crime enforcement. I can tell you that when people are facing financial issues, this is a lot of stress. And this is violent in terms of stress. So I think our point here was when we were receiving calls from unions, receiving calls from auto plants, receiving calls from trade partners, the impact on the economy was the impact on people. Like, we talked those days about food security; economic security is also an important component.

26-208-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I just wonder if you have covered the fact that we considered trust in the institution as one of our criteria as part of the threat, and what can be the consequences if, you know, a population is really losing confidence in our public institution. So you can do it or? So one of the reason why it was an important factor, so first of all, we were seeing citizens, you know, doing some counterprotests, asking the court for an injunction. So when you see the population trying to se rendre justice because they are not comfortable that law enforcement or government will do, that is for us like a beginning of a symptom that something worse can happen. We know what's going on in countries when the populations do not have confidence in our public institutions, that's brings some energy and a lot of instabilities, so this is why it was an important element for us, the taking into account the erosion in public institutions and making sure that we can address that as soon as possible to avoid the worse, if I may say.

26-215-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Thank you.

26-218-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Correct.

26-218-17

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yes.

26-218-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-218-22

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, I won a prize, yes.

26-218-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

L’avocat d’entreprise de l’année, yeah.

26-218-27

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-219-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

C’est parfait, oui.

26-219-08

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah, that’s the Advocatus Emeritus.

26-219-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s right.

26-219-17

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-219-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-219-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Within the Department of Justice, yes.

26-220-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I answer -- or I serve the Attorney General. I also responds to the Clerk of the time, and to the prime minister.

26-220-06

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s true. There’s also the part of managing litigations, yeah.

26-220-26

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-221-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s correct.

26-221-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I agree with that. I just want to say that there is different drafting procedures, if I may say, or techniques. And for example, when I was head of the Justice Department in Quebec, we had eliminated definition. So just to say that there is different ways of drafting legislations.

26-221-18

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I know that. If I may, just for the benefit of this Commission, we also use a lot in federal legislation, the technique of incorporating by reference.

26-222-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So we do that a lot. When I was a Justice, we did a report on how many times we used that technique, and I must say that it’s, you know, numbers, numbers of times. We also know that when we put the definition within a legislation, it has to be read in the context of this legislation.

26-222-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So and for the purpose of the legislation that we’re talking about. So I’m just saying that because meaning can have different meanings at the end, ---

26-222-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- depending in the context in which you are looking at the words.

26-222-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s the objective of drafting, yes.

26-222-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-223-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s how the CSIS Act ---

26-223-11

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- operates, yeah.

26-223-13

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s in the -- yeah.

26-223-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think what I’ve said is that when we’re incorporating by reference, you’ll remember, I guess, when you did your bar, you were always talking about mutatis mutandis; eh?

26-223-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

And that was -- the idea was to make sure that we interpret, avec les adaptations nécessaires, the incorporation by reference.

26-224-01

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So the idea here, and as I said before, is really to interpret, within the context, the purpose, also the decision maker that has to look at similar words.

26-224-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I guess what I’m saying here is when the Legislator adopted the Emergency Act versus when the Legislator adopted CSIS Act, it was for different purposes. The purpose of doing an investigation under the CSIS Act is not the same purpose of triggering or invoking the Emergency Act for public order emergency.

26-224-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well I’m pleased to be corrected. I -- yeah, maybe four years. I thought the CSIS was 1984, ---

26-224-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- if I’m not ---

26-224-28

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I’m not mistaken.

26-225-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I wouldn’t use “limit”. I think that the Emergency Act was crafted to make sure that there’s a lot of safeguards in terms of how we invoke the role of Parliament to confirm or deny the invocation of the Emergencies Act, the role of the Joint Committee to supervise the implementation of the measures, and the role of an inquiry like this one.

26-225-08

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

And if I can add, a very important component is making sure that doing so, I mean invoking the Emergency Act, was compliant with the Charter, which was a new instrument ---

26-225-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- following, you know, the previous Act.

26-225-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Sorry, I missed your question.

26-225-27

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I agree with that.

26-226-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Right.

26-226-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Right.

26-226-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I don’t agree with that.

26-226-17

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I can help. I know your time is ---

26-226-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

It’s really -- what we use is really 2(c).

26-226-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-226-27

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

The main -- like, the real ground was 2(c).

26-227-01

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s the main ground. Some can say that there’s other ones, but that’s the main ground we used.

26-227-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I’ll do that. I think the Clerk will probably add. So if you just look at what you went through this week, who you heard. So we heard from -- not CSIS but we've heard from some players, for example, that IMVE were present in some of the protests. We've heard also that ex-militaries and ex-law police agents were present. We heard the presence of firearms. We heard also a threat to our economy, threat to and impacts on workers. We just talked about that before. We heard impacts on our trade relationship and from GAC. We've heard from CBSA that our port of entry was affected, disrupted, and other port of entries, even, you know, after the main were clear.

26-227-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So we heard from Transport also that some rails can be affected by blockades. So we've heard from not only -- I mean, you're going to hear from CSIS Monday -- but -- and you know, when you look at the composition of DMOC, you've heard about that many, many times ---

26-228-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- over the week. Many departments are part of that DM's committee. Why? Because national security is not the result of the assessment of one agency, but the result of, as Janice said ---

26-228-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- before the town ---

26-228-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Sorry about that.

26-228-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-228-27

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So a couple of things here. And when you look at (C), you know, we want to talk about that, careful about its threat or serious violence.

26-229-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yes, the "or" can be an end also.

26-229-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yes.

26-229-10

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think what we were aware in Coutts was first of all, they were about to do enforcement and then I think it was around the 10th or the 11th of February we heard that they were slowing down enforcement because of the presence of risk of violence and guns. That’s the only thing we ---

26-229-17

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- knew at -- you know, at our level because we're not privy to all the operational risk. So that’s what we knew at Coutts.

26-229-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Exact.

26-230-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I was not aware at that time.

26-230-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

You know, when they do undercover operation, this is -- we don’t know those things.

26-230-10

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I can't say. I didn’t know at that time, no.

26-230-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

You mean the contractual policing arrangement?

26-230-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-230-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So I don't know at the end when, you know, they put an end to the blockade, who was doing what, you know, and whether -- you know, I'm sure you have heard about that, that the police of jurisdiction can ask more resources from the centre using the section 9.2 of their arrangement. So I don't know.

26-230-28

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, this is not how I portray that. I understood and I've heard that some IMVE and subject of interest for -- of CSIS were present. What I understand from their assessment is that they didn’t conclude that they need or they have to open new investigations.

26-231-11

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

They did.

26-231-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Not of the convoy as a whole, again, so ---

26-231-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

They concluded, looking at who was there, that they didn’t have enough to open investigations on specific individuals or groups.

26-232-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, I think the test is reasonable grounds, yeah.

26-232-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-232-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That a Public Order Emergency ---

26-232-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- exists.

26-232-22

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Again, you -- I'm sorry. I think we are mixing here. Reasonable grounds to suspect what, and this is the purpose of CSIS Act.

26-232-28

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So a movement, a movement can represent threat to security to Canada.

26-233-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

A movement, a situation.

26-233-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

An activity.

26-233-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Without having individuals or groups into it that do meet the threshold of CSIS. So I think we really need to make the difference between what the movement represented at that time for Canada versus the composition of the movement, whether or not we had individuals that -- so there's ---

26-233-11

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think I can go again through everything we have heard from all departments, and that the clerk, with my advice in particular, considered to determine whether or not we believe that the threat -- the test under the Emergency Act was met.

26-234-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think it could have been a mistake to do assessment site by site while we were facing a national movement and situation.

26-234-13

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I may -- if I may, sir? When we develop the FMM, one of the advice that we gave to the Prime Minister was to make sure that the timeline was not the issue, in terms of the duration of the meeting. So the Prime Minster let all Premiers to express themself, and didn’t check the clock, making sure that they will have all the time they needed to make their point.

26-239-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I can maybe add, if you allow me, that the proposed measures here were not trumping any provincial or territorial jurisdiction so why we were adding measures and authorities, we were not displacing provincial jurisdictions. So they were able as also law enforcement to continue to exercise their respective authorities. But we came to the view that separately they were not able to deal with the national situation.

26-245-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I may add ---

26-255-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- what I said earlier is that we knew that CSIS’ assessment for the purpose of the application of CSIS Act ---

26-255-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- was done, and that CSIS concluded that, for the purpose of their Act, the level of threat was not met.

26-255-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I mean I can say that I knew. I think it was shared in previous IRGs but that was not news for us when we gave the advice.

26-255-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I mean, and here, as I said, we knew that it was shared in previous IRG and, you know, some of the Cabinet members were not members of the IRG. So I don’t know if that element of CSIS was clearly said during full Cabinet, but for sure some Ministers and the Prime Minister was aware of that.

26-256-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm though, ---

26-256-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- is that the threat, as we defined, both the Clerk and myself earlier here this afternoon, in terms of the threat coming from, you know, all the elements there, and I won’t go back again, but from Transport, GAC, and others, that was discussed.

26-256-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So just one thing.

26-257-06

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Mr. Vigneault’s assessment on the fact that invoking the Emergency Act ---

26-257-08

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- can inflame the situation, that was shared. And we’ve heard that also from Provinces.

26-257-11

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-257-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So I think we answered it. We cannot confirm that. I think I share with the best of my knowledge that I’m sure that some Ministers were aware of that. Key Ministers involved in the management of the convoy, the members of the IRG, that the PM, Prime Minister, sorry, was aware, but I cannot confirm whether or not it was discussed -- like, you know, that CSIS reports to the Public Safety Minister. What he said, we cannot disclose. And to be honest, I really don’t know. So I cannot confirm that.

26-257-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well I’ve listened ---

26-258-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- to part of it, yeah.

26-258-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think ---

26-260-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I’m sorry if you didn’t have the opportunity to -- you know, the cross-examination that I had with Mr. Miller, but I think that we talked about the difference between who was the decision maker under the Emergency Act versus who is the decision maker under the CSIS Act. And the purpose of those two acts were different and what we were looking at was different. I think that what you said when you talked about Madam Thomas is that she was integrated views, but views were coming from Minister of Transport. Views were coming from Public Safety. We’ve -- I mean, I can go on and on, as I said before. Like, we saw threats from port of entry, we saw threats in terms of presence of guns. We saw kids, you know, being used as shields. We saw, you know, harassment on the streets. Like, the threats that we were collecting -- we saw impacts on our trades. Like, the threats we were assessing in order to determine was not only coming from CSIS. CSIS is a very important thing and CSIS did -- or made a decision under the Act to determine whether or not they were able to open new investigation. But you will hear from CSIS about the views of the director, and you should ask him that question. What was the views of the director in terms of the risk of the convoy, even if he didn’t, you know, open new investigations? As he had to look at, you know, the situation also. So I think we really have to make a difference here between the role of the director in managing his Acts, versus the role of the director in terms of the input and the information he can provide to us.

26-260-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I guess you are referring to my previous response where I ---

26-263-23

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- wanted to make the difference that potential criminal offences can bring serious violence without triggering the role of CSIS.

26-263-26

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Sorry, can you repeat?

26-264-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

And I wanted to give you the context.

26-264-06

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I agree.

26-264-11

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Agreed.

26-271-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yes.

26-271-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Operations, I agree.

26-271-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Sorry, I don't think have used "frustration".

26-272-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think that -- I don't recall talking about losing hope here. I think that what I have said at the beginning of this is we were facing a situation where all of the indicators were towards federal symbols, and that we were being asked to do something, and yet we didn't have jurisdiction to do a lot of things. So we were asking ourselves, and of course, we were getting worried, if I may use that word, especially on Week 2 and Week 3, whether or not we were going to see an outcome or a result or that the situation would be resolved. But I don't think that we lost, you know, I don't think that I have said that we lost hope. We were worried, we were really worried, and we came to the conclusion that maybe the actual resources, tools, and authorities that provinces were having were not being the successes we were looking for, or being used and being inefficient.

26-272-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Oh. Okay. Yeah.

26-273-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I understand the context. Yeah.

26-273-19

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Correct.

26-273-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I may add also?

26-278-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

This is why when we invoked the Emergency Act and the measures we adopted under the Emergency Act have to be time limited, and this is why we invested a lot of time to monitor the situation to make sure that we don’t keep the Emergency Act if it’s not necessary. So that is how, you know, we balanced, a little bit, the impact of the Emergency Act.

26-278-14

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

It’s the same wording that has to be interpreted within the respective acts. Here we were talking about the Emergency Act.

26-279-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I agree with you. And I’ll also add that the measures that government adopt have to be Charter compliant.

26-280-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I agree.

26-284-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I do believe that, you know, a better coordination, an appropriate flow of information is always helpful, that’s for sure. And also, when it comes to Ottawa, for example, you are probably aware that we are working on the future of Wellington, what we call the future of Wellington, to make sure that we understand and we have a better protocol on who does what when, when it comes to the Parliamentary precinct, for example. So yes, I think that this situation that we went through in February will give rise to a lot of lessons learned and I think this is one of the purposes of this Commission.

26-291-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I do.

26-293-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Agree.

26-293-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

First of all, I think that we saw a crescendo in terms of the movements all across Canada. And when we were approaching what I think the Clerk will call the third weekend, so the week of February 9 until the 13, I think this is where, and I think we talked about that a lot, we were hearing about “We have a plan.” And then the plan was not being executed. And that was true for the different sites across Canada. And I guess this is where we started to wonder whether or not provinces’ law enforcement agencies, were enough equipped to face the situation.

26-295-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So what I’m saying is that -- and I’m not putting a date for Windsor.

26-295-22

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

What I’m saying is that during the week past February, you know, 6th until the following week, we were hearing very often in our update from law enforcement agencies that “We have a plan.” To the extent that -- it was like something that every day we were hearing, “We have a plan. We’re working on a plan.” But yet we were not seeing any action on that plan. So I think this is what I mean by I was losing hope.

26-295-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Maybe just to add, and I’m sure we’re now saying I think you would agree that where we saw, you know, a positive outcome in Windsor, we also heard that it will require a lot of resources to keep it open. So it was also time intensive in terms of making sure that the passage will stay open.

26-297-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Absolutely.

26-298-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I can ---

26-301-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

If I can add; after Windsor bridge was clear, we had also threat about other port of entries, and I think -- I don’t want to put words in Deputy Minister Sabia’s mouth, but he was also looking at the whole situation, making sure that, you know, not other supply chain will be affected. So the timely resolution that Michael Sabia, from what I understood yesterday or the day before -- it was yesterday morning; yesterday was a long day for you, I know, I know -- was really like a global resolution.

26-301-04

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Thank you.

26-302-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, I was not aware of that. No, that’s not true. I have heard about potential breakthrough in Coutts. And when it comes to your previous question, we were aware of potential presence of firearms in Coutts, but prior to the enforcement action, we didn’t know about the cache.

26-302-25

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So what I can -- so what I do recall during the FMM meeting, is Alberta being afraid that invoking the Emergency Act can put, you know, potential breakthrough in danger in Coutts. So we were aware that it was imminent.

26-303-07

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

But just to be clear, and I think that if you look at the many IRG trackers, many, many other options have been looked at, and the Prime Minister was present during the conversations when we looked at the different options.

26-303-21

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s what I said, yeah.

26-304-27

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Well, I think we also talk about, you know, the predecessor of the two-tracks document, which was a document developed by Jacquie Bogden, I think the following night. So we started the two tracks at the beginning, I think. We were talking about Plan E -- Plan A and Plan B, but -- so it was -- you know, I think it was before the one on the 12th, maybe more the one on the 10th that we first had developed the Track 1 and Track 2 document.

26-305-03

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So on February 9, the -- not the decision but the path of using the Emergency Act was not sufficiently developed to consult. Like, it was one of the things, one of the options we were working on, but we were not in a position at that time, because it was not serious enough as an option to start the consultation. I’d like also to add something. I receive a question earlier this afternoon about, you know, another consultation we did on the Emergency Act in relation with COVID. And the situation was quite different. Remember that we also discussed today that the moment we talk about the Emergency Act, that can trigger some reactions, and that was the CSIS assessment on the risk of triggering or invoking the Emergency Act. So we were quite aware that the moment that we talk publicly about the Emergency Act, the timeline to take a decision is very short. It can be a go or no go, but you cannot wait. You cannot put that in the domain without taking a decision. And what we were afraid happened very rapidly. The moment we hang off the call on the FMM, it was already out there that we were thinking about the Emergency Act. So this is why, you know, we were very concerned and -- concerne that talking about the Emergency Act will request a very rapid decision; a no or a yes but a rapid decision.

26-305-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think what I’ve said is that -- you know, contrary to the virus, you can talk about publicly that you are thinking about using the Emergency Act. You can develop, you know, language. You can put in writing proposals to provinces, receive their comment, and that will not change how the virus behaves. If you engage in a more lengthy process when it comes to protests, that can change how the protest will evolve and how protesters will behave. So this is why we were concerned that the time limit to take -- to make a decision was very very short, the moment it was public and out there that we were considering invoking the Emergency Act.

26-306-24

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I think this is why, you know, after the FMM we -- well, first of all, all the conversations, all the FPT engagement, prior to the formal consultation on the 14th really supported and feed also our decision and our assessment on whether or not a single province can deal with the situation. But this is why after the FMM we maintained open channels with provinces. We offered a briefing and you know, we were also, if I may say, comfortable with the fact that the Emergency Act was time limited, that we were not displacing any provincial jurisdiction, that any law enforcement was not also displaced. They were able to continue to exercise their authorities. So we also find comfort with that and also, as I said, we maintained the channel open and we were also offering possibility, for example, to amend the two measures that we were proposing.

26-307-18

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

That’s perfect. I just want to add that I don’t know if it was during the FMM or the following briefing that I did with provincial and territories, when I was asked, you know, why don’t we use the Emergency Act for only one province or two provinces, my answer was what the clerk said, i.e., the movement of protesters and the risk of having popups all across Canada, but also exactly what you said, that in order for the economic measures to be effective they have to apply Canada-wide. And I think I have said that also during my interview.

26-311-20

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yeah.

26-312-09

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

So with the measure we have adopted, we -- our views was that nothing was displaced. Like, the provinces could continue to exercise their authorities. For example, what we did for financial institutions or the power with FINTRAC, this is already federal jurisdiction, and we have already authorities ---

26-312-15

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- to do that. So we haven’t -- and I think it’s -- sorry to interrupt you.

26-312-22

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I ---

26-313-02

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Yes, but I would ---

26-313-05

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

I would submit, for example, that Desjardins est déjà assujetti à FINTRAC.

26-313-08

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Mais on peut avoir des -- par exemple, on peut avoir des autorités ou des régulateurs fédéraux ---

26-313-12

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- qui donnent des ordonnances a des institutions financières comme les caisses populaires, donc c’est possible pour une entité fédérale de soumettre à certains ordonnances ou à certains règlements les -- c’est possible pour Desjardins et d’autres coopératives financières d’être soumis or sujet à des ordonnances fédérales.

26-313-16

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

Peut-être c’est une question de mot, puis je pense que nos avocats will have the opportunity to submit -- to submit factums, but I think when I say “displaced” it means that what were offering was in addition of what provinces and law enforcement agencies can do. Like, this is what I mean by “not displacing”. It was supplementing - --

26-314-01

Nathalie Drouin, Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (GC-PCO)

--- and introducing ---

26-314-10