Nini Jones
Nini Jones spoke 95 times across 6 days of testimony.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yes, good morning, Commissioner, ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
--- and Commission Counsel. Thank you. My name is Nini Jones and I am here, along with my colleague, Lauren Pearce. We are both on Zoom today, and my colleague, Jen Del Riccio, who is present in person, and together we represent the National Police Federation. The National Police Federation is the exclusive bargaining agent for approximately 20,000 RCMP members and reservists below the rank of inspector. The RCMP, and by extension, the NPF’s members, were the source of the largest police response to the convoy and the blockades in Ottawa, as well as in every other location throughout Canada, including the B.C. occupation, the Alberta occupation, Manitoba, as well as assisting in Windsor. In other words, the RCMP were the police officers charged with responding to the situation created by the convoy across the country. The NFP intends to participate with a particular focus on the scope and the limits of our members’ policing authority and their policing jurisdiction and we are particularly interested in the divided jurisdiction and the issues that arose in the City of Ottawa, where police responses came from the OPP, the Ottawa Police, and the NPF’s members employed by the RCMP, along with the Parliamentary Protective Services. Those are the areas of particular interest for the NPF and we look forward to assisting the Commission and the Commissioner with those issues as they arise through this proceeding. Thank you so much.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I am. Can ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Hello, Mr. Sloly. My name is Nini Jones, and I’m counsel to the National Police Federation. Can you see and hear me okay?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you. The National Police Federation is the union or RCMP members, and one of the good things about going late in the day is that most of my questions have been asked and answered already. So I’m going to be very brief with you and focus in on an area that we haven’t touched on, I don’t think, over the course of the day. So you’ve had lots of questions today about the resources available to the Ottawa Police, including from the RCMP as well as the OPP and other large police services in Ontario. But no-one’s asked you about the Parliamentary Protective Services, or the PPS. Are you familiar with them?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. And you know that they’re a few hundred security officers based out of Parliament Hill?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
In the main, I mean; other Parliamentary -- other elements of the Parliamentary precinct. And the Ottawa Police Service didn’t look to them for assistance in responding to the convoy; correct?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Did not.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. You know that their security officers are not peace officers?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And you know they’re not a law enforcement agency?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so in fact if a criminal offence occurs on Parliament Hill, they actually call the Ottawa Police Service, right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so during the convoy, just to sort of circle that back, PPS officers weren’t a resource to support -- in terms of what I think some of my friends have said earlier, in terms of the boots on the ground to support OPS in its physical response to the convoy.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
At Parliament Hill.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
M’hm.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. Well, just to go back to some of the evidence that we’ve heard, you know, it’s clear Ottawa Police Service was looking for additional bodies or boots on the ground to respond to the convoy.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And you’ll agree with me that the PPS did not provide that, in terms of boots on the ground to response to the convoy, in terms of those policing responsibilities on Wellington and beyond.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Right.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. And in fact, would you agree with me that as police of jurisdiction, OPS had to actually account for providing policing assistance or support to the PPS on Parliament Hill?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I think it’s fair to say that we can agree that some security is better than no security, that’s fair. But to be clear, if there was an unlawful event, if the convoy, protest overtook Parliament Hill, for example, if there was some sort of unlawful event on Parliament Hill, you’d agree with me that that would fall to the OPS and the additional resources it had gathered to respond to, in terms of criminal conduct or the convoy actually making headway towards Parliament Hill?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And, in fact, just to sort of close this circle, the fact that those POU Units had to be placed inside the Parliamentary Protective Services areas was -- meant they couldn’t be available to OPS outside of Parliament Hill, right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thank you so much for your time.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you very much.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yes, Hello. This is Nini Jones for the NPF. We have no further questions. Thank you.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Good afternoon. My name's Nini Jones and I act for the Police -- the National Police Federation. Sorry, I've just had my iPad closed up, of course. I'm going to ask you a couple of quick questions just to start off about the swearing in of RCMP officers under the Ontario Police Services Act, so very quickly because we have heard a lot of evidence about that over the last numbers, you’re both aware, I’m sure, that in order to permit RCMP officers to enforce provincial laws and municipal by-laws they need to be sworn in as special constables under the Police Services Act?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And you’re aware there’s an equivalent sort of provision in Quebec as well?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I’m not an expert on that, so I’m not going to try and wade into the specifics, but are you aware that in Ontario, prior to the convoy, our members were required to take a short course and write a test before being sworn in? Commissioner, I see that you are not aware of that.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Deputy Commissioner?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. Were you aware -- so anything about a course or a test is -- is ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
--- not familiar? Okay. So I know that both of you in your witness statements said that the swearing in because it was essentially a paperwork exercise was not a significant deterrence or hurdle. Is that right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And are you aware that there were still some challenges, for example, in Windsor where our members had to use the buddy system?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Being deployed with either an OPP officer or a Windsor officer along with the RCMP officers?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. Would you agree, broadly speaking, with me that looking at this issue might be something that this Commission could do or make a recommendation in respect of?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you, Commissioner. At the end of your witness statement, you were both asked about recommendations or thoughts you had emerging from this and you talked about -- Commissioner, you particularly talked about protests like the Freedom Convoy not going away. And I think we’ve heard some evidence over the last few days about this being a paradigm shift, a new model of protest. Is that something you both agree with?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. Deputy Commissioner, I want to pick up on some evidence that you gave earlier about -- not really that long ago when the RCMP had a bigger footprint here in Ottawa.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And you talked specifically about, I think, when the RCMP were the police of jurisdiction in respect of Parliamentary precinct and how planning worked for big events.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
You recall that evidence?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Specifically, you said that there’d be joint planning. The RCMP and the OPS would plan together.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so I’m sure you’re familiar with the witness statement of Dennis Miller and Steve Madden.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Neither of you have had an opportunity to review it? Mr. Miller, who I think you may know ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you. Talks about how he policed three previous G20 summits and that the RCMP directed protestors to park at a distance from the summit location.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And that they would then arrange buses to transport them to those ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And Commissioner, I see you nodding. That’s a practice that the RCMP has used frequently in respect of large events?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And in fact, the RCMP has significant experience with large events; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so in circumstances like this one, would you agree with me that it would have been a benefit to revert to those -- I want to say old ways of doing it, although it’s really quite recent, where the RCMP was an active participant in planning around Parliament Hill.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Right. So sort of that federal policing lens was the lens you brought to bear ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
--- not that frontline or community-based policing; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. But you talked earlier about, in this prior period, when there were 120 RCMP officers available in the Parliamentary precinct; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And everybody here already knows that I’m always asking questions about the Parliamentary precinct. I know that you were the first Director. But you -- so in fact, you know probably better than anyone that the PPS security officers are not -- it’s not a law enforcement agency; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And that they are not -- they can’t exercise police powers?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Right. And in fact, if they do arrest, they have to call the Ottawa Police ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
--- or the RCMP.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
But for example, if it was a terrorist matter, they would ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Right. And in fact, the police of jurisdiction, whether that’s the OPS or the RCMP under their mandate, have to ask permission to be invited into the buildings for policing purposes; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yes.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so the full wind-down of the RCMP out of the Parliamentary precinct really just concluded in about 2018; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Decommissioning, I think, is the language you used in your ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
They report up to the Speakers.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
So just to be clear, during the convoy, this group of a few hundred, maybe a bit more, security officers at -- you probably have a better sense of the numbers than I do.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
So they have a -- sorry, an institutional report. It’s PPS.IR., a number of zeroes, and then 1. And they say that they played no active role in -- let me just make sure I got it. They were not an active participant nor a contributor to any tactical policing planning in -- during the convoy. And that’s at page 8 in the document, but we can pull it up if you need to see it. But does that make sense to you?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yeah. OC Transpo was in that centre as well; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yeah. Lots of people were in that who don’t play a policing role.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. So in terms of these few hundred security officers or security guards, we know that they put in an RFA, Request for Federal Assistance, seeking rations. Were you aware of that?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yeah. Just in case, I think they wanted to make sure they were supplied. And they also stood up their own crisis management centre ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
--- inside, but actually, the RCMP and the OPP had to deploy Public Order Units to those buildings; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And are you aware the OPP did also?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
So the OPP and the RCMP were responsible for providing that security during the convoy to these physical buildings?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Inside Parliament Hill though.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. And you'll agree ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I'm absolutely about to wrap up. Thank you. You'll agree with me that Parliament Hill is a frequent target for protests?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
You'll agree with me that Parliament Hill is a frequent target of threats, including of violent threats?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And/or the people in it.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And would you agree with me that having a distinct organisation, and I understand as someone who helped build this organisation this may be a bit of a difficult question for you, but that having a distinct organisation with its own Command Centre, its own communication processes, and its own people can stifle that flow of information that's so crucial in events like the convoy?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. And then may I ask one last question?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I apologise. Thank you. Commissioner Lucki, we've had a lot of questions about the availability of bodies and boots on the ground in responding to the convoy in the early days, but frankly all the way through it. Would you agree that 120 additional RCMP officers at the Parliamentary Precinct would have been useful in responding to this event?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
It's to Commissioner Lucki, but I would certainly ---
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Of course.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. You'd agree 10 to 15 would come in handy, though; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And our questions were asked by Commission Counsel and answered, so thank you very much.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Hello, Minister. My name is Nini Jones. I'm Counsel to the National Police Federation, which is, as I'm sure you well know, the union for RCMP officers employed under the auspices of your Ministry.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
I want to actually just pick up -- I want to go back to policing a little bit in a bit more detail and pick up on a theme that you've explored a great deal in your evidence. And that was sort of barriers to the surge capacity of police in responding to the convoy in various locations. And you know what I mean when I talk about surge capacity; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yeah, okay. You agreed with Counsel to Mr. Sloly that a recommendation around a protocol for requesting additional police resources was something that would be welcome in terms of that provincial, municipal, federal hierarchy or could ask first question; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And you were asked some questions about the barriers created particularly by the Police Services Act in Ontario and swearing in RCMP officers as peace officers, so they can function effectively inside Ontario in respect of enforcing the law in various jurisdictions. And that, I think, is a second barrier; you'd agree with me?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Challenge is probably a better word than barrier, but I think we agree on that. So can I just take you to a bit of a -- of what we see as sort of a third barrier or challenge in response -- in respect of the issue of surge capacity. And that's the question of not authority, which is sort of that authority to enforce the law, but the jurisdictional problems that are created in Ottawa. And you've talked a lot, both in your witness statement and your evidence today, about this kind of mismatch in jurisdiction in respect of the NCR or the national capital region and the Parliamentary Precinct.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you. Sorry.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
If I may, you mean the OPP Commissioner?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Right.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
So just to get a little bit granular on that exact point, thank you for that very helpful answer, in Coutts, for example, or Emerson, or in the lower mainland, the RCMP was able to rely on Article 9 powers to draw in additional officers to provide that surge capacity; right?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And so again, just to get a little bit more into the details on this, you know there are about 19,000 RCMP officers across the country?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Sure. I mean, no one's looking for precise numbers on that front. We've heard evidence here that there is slightly less than about 1500 Ottawa Police Service officers.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Yeah?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
And we heard evidence from Commissioner Carrique that on any given day he has about 3,000 uniform officers who are engaged in frontline policing out of his larger total complement?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Okay. So would you agree with me that the RCMP are uniquely positioned in terms of sheer numbers to provide or facilitate providing that surge capacity in public order emergencies like the one that arose in Ottawa during the convoy?
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Amazing. Thank you so much for -- I think I am under time? I can't believe that.
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Nini Jones, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Thank you, Commissioner. My name is Nini Jones, and I am counsel to the National Police Federation. The National Police Federation is the union representing the regular members and reservists of the RCMP, and so while we're obviously here because we're focussed on the policing response in January and February 2022, in Coutts, in Emerson, in the Lower Mainland, in Windsor, and of course primarily in Ottawa, we're also here because these are our members' working conditions. So these -- when we talk about what's happening on the streets, and what went right and what went wrong, it's our members who are living that reality on the ground. When we talk about boots on the ground, as we have many times, those are our members' boots. And so we also know that in the future, at similar protests, at similar occupations, our members are going to be the ones called upon to respond in similarly dangerous and uncertain working conditions. And so what the NPF wants for our members is to be deployed into these exigent circumstances with well-constructed, strong policing plan, and in adequate numbers to perform their public order safety -- or public order functions in a way that is safe for the protesters, for the community, and for our members. Now, the evidence here has been essentially undisputed, that in -- the January and February protests led to a significant failure to maintain public order in our Nation's Capital. And there are a number of pieces of evidence that we will be reviewing in a great deal of detail in our -- or more detail anyway than I will today in our submissions. I think you will be hearing about from all of my friends. But we know that there are a couple of key things from the NPF's perspective. First of all, Parliament is a frequent and regular target of political protest. We know also that the Freedom Convoy was a different kind of protest or occupation, and we heard evidence that it was a paradigm shift in terms of protesting and represents a change in what are likely to be future protest tactics. We also know that the surge capacity of police, that is, the number of police officers who are available and able to be deployed quickly is a crucial, perhaps more accurately, the crucial component of protecting a key site like Parliament Hill and the Ambassador Bridge, to use two key examples. The Ottawa Police in Ottawa were effectively the only police of jurisdiction charged with the circumstances that arose in January and February 2022 and in Ottawa, one of the themes throughout this proceeding, throughout the evidence, has been that these federal democratic institutions, the ones right next door to where we are and further down the road, are in fact of extremely high value, symbolic value, as well as, of course, practical value, and in the moment value, and that there are real questions about whether they should be outside or beyond the jurisdiction of the Federal Government for policing purposes. In fact, it was a surprise to many of the witnesses, including some of the Federal Government witnesses that we heard from, the Ministers. It was a surprise to many that it was so far out of their reach. And we also know that there was an absence of a policing presence all along this strip on this side of Wellington, which may not show up very well on the transcript, but I’m sure we’ll all remember where we’re standing when we read it later. So as its status as the only police of jurisdiction, the OPS was left in a position to develop its response and develop its plan on its own. And you heard some evidence about in, what I like to call the old days, a handful of years ago, in 2018 and 2015, when the RCMP policed this side of Wellington, that the RCMP would have been joint responding police of jurisdiction with the OPS. So we know that the OPS made the decision ultimately to allow the protestors to bring their vehicles onto Wellington and into the downtown core. And the NPF’s view is that that was a terrible mistake. And the evidence in our submission shows that the RCMP, given their experiences with other large-scale events, would have made different planning decisions, including from the outset, and including specifically on that point. Now, we recognize of course that our colleagues and our friends, members of the Ottawa Police Association who were on the ground, were doing their very best to maintain public order in extremely adverse conditions, particularly at the beginning when they were on their own. But the Ottawa Police Service was overwhelmed almost immediately and there was friction, confusion, and delay in the ability of the Ottawa Police Service to obtain and deploy additional police resources. So much so that even here now, no one is exactly clear on how many police were eventually provided to Ottawa and when and at what stages, and frankly in what roles. There was a lot of disagreement and finger pointing about that. And so in the NPF’s submission, we can draw a very sharp line from Ottawa to Emerson, and to Coutts, and to the Lower Mainland. And where we see that surge capacity being available to the responding police of jurisdiction, in all three of those cases, it was the RCMP who was the responding police of jurisdiction, they were able to draw on those Article 9 resources that we heard evidence about, to ensure that they could immediately and seamlessly provide that policing search capacity on the ground in the moment it was required, and it was done in a way that provided for consistency of training, consistency of communication tools, and consistency of command structure. And so we heard evidence that the RCMP is uniquely positioned, given its size and its resources, given its cross-national status as Canada’s national police service, to respond to these kind of public order emergencies. But the shortcomings in the legal and institutional framework through which policing was administered or is administered in Ontario, and particularly in the National Capital Region, are -- pose significant barriers. And so we’ll be advancing specific recommendations consistent with many of the recommendations that you’re hearing today from my friends, including that the Police Services Act should be amended to extend full policing authority to the RCMP, for purposes of municipal, provincial, or federal declared emergencies, that a statutory process should be developed to provide municipal police services in Ontario, and particularly the Ottawa Police Service, with the ability to request and obtain RCMP resources early, and that existing jurisdictional boundaries need to be re-examined and policing responsibility has to be supplemented, particularly, again, in the National Capital Region, so that the RCMP can provide the necessary support in situations of public order emergency. The Commission has been asked to make recommendations, and we hope that the NPF’s recommendations will be -- which in our submission are supported by the evidence, will be part of that. I do want to take one moment to thank you, Commissioner, very much, and also particularly to thank Commission Counsel, who have had, at times, a thankless role in this process. I suspect it has been almost exclusively thankless. They have been extraordinary colleagues and have done an amazing job. And I also want to thank all of my friends who have been counsel to the various parties. It has been a pleasure and an honour. Thank you very much.