Volume 3 (October 17, 2022)

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Bonjour, good morning. Natalia Rodriguez, senior Commission Counsel. And Commission would like to call Steve Kanellakos.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 7 03-007-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Nice to see you again. Can you confirm your position with the City of Ottawa?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And as City Manager, I understand you're the most senior public servant in the administration; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you've held this position since May of 2006?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

'16, sorry. My mistake. And you had an interview with Commission Counsel on August 17th of this year; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And have you had a chance to review the summary of that interview?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 8 03-008-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. Do you have any corrections you would like to make to that summary?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So I would like to bring it up, so that we can have it entered into evidence. It's WTS1, ending in 1. Okay. So this is your witness summary?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Great. So we will have that entered into evidence. Thank you.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you've also sworn an affidavit attaching the institutional reports for the City of Ottawa for this Commission; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. And the affidavit is AFF3, if we can pull that up? Okay. And if we can just zoom in a little bit? Okay. So that is your affidavit; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And the institution reports that it attaches are OTT.IR.00000001. And if we can zoom in? You recognize that as the City of Ottawa's institution report?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And if we can go to OTT.IR00000002. And this is the second institution report, which is a timeline of events submitted by the City of Ottawa; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 9 03-009-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. And are you aware of any changes that should be made to either one of these documents?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So we'll have those entered into evidence along with your affidavit.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So just by way of background, according to your witness summary and the institution report, there are 10 departments within the City. Each department has a general manager, and each general manager then reports directly to you; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And one of those departments is the Emergency and Protective Services?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Mr. Kim Ayotte is the General Manager for that department?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I understand that By- law and Regulatory Services falls within Emergency and Protective Services, and then that then subsequently reports to Mr. Kim Ayotte, and then up to you as City Manager; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you're also the Chair of the EOCCG when that group is activated; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The EOC ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 10 03-010-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what is the Emergency Operations Centre Control Group?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

It's only one C. Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you for that. The EOCG then. And my understanding is that the EOCG includes all 10 city departments, in addition to certain independent agencies such as Ottawa Public Health, Ottawa Police Services and others; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And as Chair, you have final decision-making authority for matters that are within the city's jurisdiction if there's a lack of consensus among the EOCG members; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. So if it's an agency that falls outside of 1 of the 10 departments, then you don't have authority over those; is that ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And the lead agency for this particular emergency was which agency?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 11 03-011-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And how was that decided?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 12 03-012-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So is it the case that every time there's a demonstration, that's considered a public order issue, and therefore, the police is the lead agency for that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 12 03-012-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Does it depend on the nature of the demonstration?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 12 03-012-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. What about in the case of a parade, for example?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 12 03-012-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. And at the ELCG level, which I understand it is a City of Ottawa emergency group, what kinds of decisions are taken at that level?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 13 03-013-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So as city manager, having all city departments reporting up to you, and as chair of the ELCG, it is fair to say that you would have been aware of any major considerations or any major decisions or actions that the City would have taken with respect to the convoy?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 13 03-013-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. I’m going to take you to OTT 101. And all of the OTT documents will end in .0001, but I’m not going to say that. So it’s just OTT 101. And this is an email that was sent to you. If we go down to the bottom? All right. So all the way to the bottom. Okay. So if we go up a little bit, just to see who this is from. Yeah, okay. So we have Steve Ball. And do you know who Steve Ball is?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 13 03-013-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And who is he?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 14 03-014-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And this is dated January 25th, so this is before the arrival of the convoy in Ottawa. And he says: “See note below. I spoke to this guy and he gave me more info about the plan shut down access to the city.” (As read) And then he sends a message there, which says, in part: “The current count of transportation individuals are estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 members, who will be attending for a duration of 30 to 90 days from the day of January 29th, 2022 to February 27th, 2022, extending to February 1st, 2022.” (As read)

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 14 03-014-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Sorry, April 1st, 2022. And my understanding is that this message that was received by Steve Ball was somebody purporting to be on behalf of, it looks like, a Canada United Truckers Convoy, looking for hotels to stay in Ottawa? Is that your understanding as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 14 03-014-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And after that message, it looks like, if we go up, from Steve Ball, he sent it to Mathieu Gravel. And he’s at the Mayor’s office? Is that correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 15 03-015-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then he forwards that to you and to Steve Box, and to Kim Ayotte, and then he says: “After having raised three plus million through the crowd funding initiative, the truckers are starting to reach out to hotels to book stays of at least 30 days. Steve Ball spoke to this guy and he basically laid out the plan, which is basically that they will leave their trucks in place, chain them together, and attempt to block all accesses to the city. What is our level of preparedness to respond to this should it go on for many weeks or months? Who is our lead in responding and presumably liaising with the federal authorities? It would be helpful if we could have a quick call either today or tomorrow to share intel.” (As read) Okay. And then if we go up. So you received that on the 25th, and then it looks like you say that: “We are briefing the Mayor’s Office this week once we have the info we need.” (As read) And then Serge Arpin says: “Chief Peter Sloly has set up a briefing with the Mayor tomorrow after council.” (As read) And so it looks like then my understanding is that this information received from the Hotels Association was passed on to the Ottawa Police Service?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 15 03-015-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And it looks like a meeting was held then on January 26th, which was the day after this email, with Former Chief Sloly. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 16 03-016-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And was the information in this email discussed?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 16 03-016-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And if I could take you to OTT 259? This is the email from Intersec on January 26th. Go down. Yeah. Okay. There it is. And if we go up a little bit more just to show that it comes from Intersec? And it came, actually, on the 21st of January, but it was forwarded to the City on the 26th of January, if we go up a little bit more. Yeah. And it says: “The situation remains fluid.” (As read) And it says, if we go up a little bit more: “All open-source information and our interactions with organizers indicate that this will be a significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period.” (As read) And that is under “Current information”, the first bullet point there. And so if we go up, it looks like you received this email as well. Kim Ayotte forwards it to Steve Box and to Beth Gooding, and then Steve Box forwards that to you?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 16 03-016-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you recall receiving this at the time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 17 03-017-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if I could take you to OTT 538? And this is dated January 26th. It’s from Riley Brockington. I understand he’s a councillor?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 17 03-017-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And he sent this to you and to some other people at the City, including Diane Deans, who was the Chair of the OPSB at the time? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 17 03-017-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And in his email, he says, in part: “This isn’t just going to impact downtown, but the entire city region. Many are now saying shut down the city until the restrictions are lifted. This is going to last more than a weekend. The OPS today estimated 1,000 to 2,000 to protest. No way. Expect many more.” (As read) So when he says that “OPS today estimated one to 2,000 to protest”, given that this is on January 26th, is it fair to say that in the briefing that was given to council and to you and the Mayor on the 26th of January, this was the number that was provided to council and to you about what to expect in terms of numbers?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 18 03-018-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so in terms of the City’s planning for this event, what basis did it plan on? Was it on the basis of a prolonged stay that could last 30 to 90 days as the Hotel Association was suggesting? Or was it on a different basis?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 19 03-019-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So then it would have been until maybe February 1st or so? Or 2nd?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 19 03-019-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And the majority of them leaving after the weekend?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 20 03-020-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And this was information provided to the City on the 26th of January?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 20 03-020-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And who provided that information?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 20 03-020-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so in that weekend -- in that meeting, did anybody from the City say, "Well, you know, we have different information. What's the plan in case this goes on for longer, could potentially go on longer?"

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 20 03-020-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so in that meeting, it's fair to say there was no discussion about conflicting intelligence or conflicting information about the duration?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 21 03-021-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so did it concern you then that you're hearing from other people that this could be longer but the planning is only for the weekend?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 21 03-021-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you were confident then that the City was prepared and that OPS was prepared?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 21 03-021-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so how did that first weekend go in terms of what you expected and what actually happened?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 21 03-021-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, there are documents that suggest that the City was upset about certain incidents that weekend, such as the National War Memorial being desecrated, the Terry Fox statue as well. Did that raise any concern for you?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 22 03-022-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So I want to take you now to OTT10560, and these are text messages between you and former Chair Deans. That's okay. We're just waiting for them to be pulled up.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 23 03-023-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

10560.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 23 03-023-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we can zoom in, they're on page 3. Let's go to page 3. Okay. And if we zoom in a little bit more? Okay. And my understanding is this is a text from Chair Deans; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 23 03-023-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And she says to you, "Hi, Steve. Questions are being asked about why heavy trucks were allowed into the core. I have heard a couple of explanations from police but wonder what your thoughts are." (As read) And you say, "The problem is that we don't have enough locations that could park all those vehicles and we didn't want them just parking their vehicles in neighbourhoods and other streets and walking away. So it was a negotiation to balance their need to get downtown and get them to park in controlled areas." (As read) So can you explain the rationale that you're laying out here?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 23 03-023-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And in terms of that strategy, was the City consulted on that strategy?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 24 03-024-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did the City inform the OPS of the impacts that would result on the city because of the strategy? So by-law infractions, trucks into, you know, non-truck areas, effects on businesses and residence, was that something that was communicated to the police?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 25 03-025-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so what I think you're telling me is that OPS made the decision, informed the City, and you worked with them to achieve whatever changes and modifications and accommodations needed to be made?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 25 03-025-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Regardless of the impact on residents and businesses and the city services?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 26 03-026-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what did Chief Sloly say was the basis for allowing the heavy trucks in, or having to allow the heavy trucks in?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 26 03-026-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go to page 5 of this document, Chair Deans asks, “If the ones that have left come back, will they be allowed downtown?” And then you say, “No, once a truck leaves, no other trucks including the ones that left can return into the zone. It's a bone of contention with the truckers who feel that if one goes out someone else should be left in.”

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 27 03-027-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Oh, let in.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 27 03-027-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

No, I thought maybe it was my eyes. Okay. Can you explain that, that it was a bone of contention with the protesters? Where are you getting this information from?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 27 03-027-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we heard evidence on Friday that trucks that were leaving the red zone early days were being allowed back in. Do you have any information about that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 28 03-028-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And how often would you say you were in touch with Chief Sloly during this time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 28 03-028-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes, and we’ll get to those in a minute. And so do you agree that the City as an entity through bylaws, has authority to close roads?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 28 03-028-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. But in this case, exercising that authority was not contemplated. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 28 03-028-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So did the City ask the police then, Chief Sloly or anyone else at Ottawa police service, to look into that, to consider that, to work with the City to achieve some road closures?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 30 03-030-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then on February 4th and 5th, which was the second weekend, there were several additional convoys that entered the city. And I believe you are aware of that at the time, that they, right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 30 03-030-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so, that wasn't - at that point I understand they actually did go into the city, they were not stopped or turned away in any way. Was there any session prior to that to try to prevent them somehow from entering and joining the existing convoy that was already downtown?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 30 03-030-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So for the second weekend the posture of OPS was still that there was no legal authority to stop them from entering on that second weekend?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 30 03-030-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you know whether that posture ever changed throughout the -- at least throughout the time that Chief Sloly was was Chief?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 31 03-031-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Now, we have some notes from the Ottawa Police indicating that the City had asked Ottawa Police to harden the downtown core. Do you have any understanding of what that means, or where this might have come from, this solution?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 31 03-031-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The City asked the police to harden the downtown core.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 31 03-031-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Do you have any information?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 31 03-031-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The councillors you mean?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 32 03-032-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Now, you talked a little bit about overflow spaces, Sir John MacDonald, which everybody refers to as SJAM, and Queen Elizabeth. What were the other designated overflow areas?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 32 03-032-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So let's talk about Coventry. Do you know how the Coventry Road stadium parking lot ended up being used by protesters on that first weekend?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 32 03-032-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And that parking lot is city owned?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 32 03-032-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 32 03-032-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

That's right. And who determined then the use of 1500 Bronson, how did that come about?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And my understanding is that 1500 Bronson is a federal building?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So it's not owned by -- that's not owned by the City?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And the City wasn't asked for permission to use that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But they were asked to use the Coventry Road baseball stadium parking lot?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And me understanding was that the use of that was only meant to be for the first weekend; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And my understanding is that the tenants that were renting the space or not happy about the -- what was happening at Coventry Road. Is that your understanding as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 33 03-033-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And in fact, they wrote some angry letters to the City asking the City to revoke OPS’s - --

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 34 03-034-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- access to that site. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 34 03-034-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And were these issues raised with OPS?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 34 03-034-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the response?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 34 03-034-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And my understanding is that it was initially meant for protesters to park and then make their way into downtown, and it looks like that's not what ended up happening. What's your understanding about how that area was being used?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 34 03-034-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And are you aware of any safety or security issues with that site in particular?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 35 03-035-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did the OPS say anything about why they couldn’t evacuate or get that encampment shut down?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 35 03-035-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I want to take you now to OTT 4144. This is an OECCG -- oh, this one says OECCG. Well, I guess we can use both acronyms. Update 10. And this is on February 5th. And these updates, I understand, were put out daily? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 35 03-035-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And these are the Emergency Operations Control Group putting out a situational update as to what’s going on so that everybody is aware of the situation on the ground? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 35 03-035-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And in the second paragraph there, it says ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 35 03-035-28

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

Sorry, counsel.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-03

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

I believe this is a draft.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-05

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

I don’t know if it’s been finalized or not. I just can’t see the top of the document. My apologies. You just said it’s the update. I think it’s the proposed update.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The final one is identical, but it isn’t -- we received it after -- anyway, my notes were not finalized at the time. So we do have the final one, which says the same thing in terms of what I’m going to take the witness to.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-10

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

That’s fine. I just wasn’t sure. Thank you.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes, no problem. So on the second paragraph, and the final version says the same thing, it says: “There were about 13 convoys that arrived today, and unfortunately they refused to park in the designated overflow space. Instead, they came into the city.” (As read) And so in this case, what was the designated overflow space on February 5th for them to go into? It wasn’t Coventry, because I think at that point, Coventry had already been taken over.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 36 03-036-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Was it 1500 Bronson?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 37 03-037-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

What about Sir John A. MacDonald?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 37 03-037-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you know how they were able to come in despite there being designated overflow spaces for those convoys?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 37 03-037-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so can you confirm then that the truckers -- the area that the truckers took up in downtown grew because these 13 convoys entered the downtown area?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 37 03-037-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I’m going to take you to OTT 10455. And this is a chat that seems to be among people within the Emergency Operations Centre perhaps. And so I just wanted to confirm who some of these people are, just so that we can be sure that they are in some way related to the Emergency Management. Beth Gooding, I believe, is the Director of Public Safety? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 37 03-037-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And who is Nicole Ward?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Kelly Cochrane?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And Steve Box?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Ryan Perrault?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Andrea Lanthier- Seymour?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So were any of these people representatives to the NCRCC?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 38 03-038-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And just for the record, the NCRCC is the National Capital Region Control Group -- Control Centre?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 39 03-039-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Command Centre. Thank you. And so there seemed to be, in this chat, situational updates. Can we generally take these situational updates as accurate?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 39 03-039-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So I want to talk a little bit about towing. Who was responsible, in your view, for ensuring sufficient towing capacity to tow convoy trucks or any trucks that were parked illegally?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 39 03-039-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So both the City and OPS?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 39 03-039-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what happened with the towing capacity in this situation? My understanding is that there wasn’t sufficient towing capacity. So maybe you can explain what happened? What the situation was?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 39 03-039-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So was the city taking the lead then on procuring towing capacity on behalf of both the City and OPS?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 40 03-040-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And were those -- were any of those efforts successful?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 40 03-040-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you mentioned that some of the tow truck companies refused to tow vehicles that were associated with the convoy, or they were not willing to tow. What’s your understanding of why they were refusing to tow?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 40 03-040-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And these are companies that the City has on contract? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 41 03-041-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So is your understanding that the refusal was coming both from the existing contractors with the City and with others that you were reaching out to?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 42 03-042-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And would this be -- were they contractually obligated to respond when the City called on them?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 42 03-042-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what measures did the City take to enforce these contracts, if any?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 42 03-042-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so the two heavy truck, tow truck vehicles that OC Transpo had, did those end up being used?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 42 03-042-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And why not?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 42 03-042-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so do you know if -- where the trucks came from that were eventually used for the police operation that cleared the area?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 43 03-043-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But the City wasn't the one procuring -- didn't procure those?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 44 03-044-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The police did. Okay. So does the City have any knowledge of where they came from specifically?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 44 03-044-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And can you give us a sense for how by-law was being enforced outside of the immediate red zone? So I understand that within the red zone there were a lot of issues with safety, but outside of the red zone, we heard on Friday that vehicles that appeared to be associated with the convoy either because they had flags or something indicating that maybe they were part of the protest, that they were not being towed, even if they were outside even as far as, you know, some areas of Councillor Fleury's ward, east of the red zone. Do you have a sense for how By-law was enforcing issues outside of that zone?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 44 03-044-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Do you know when that integration happened?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 45 03-045-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was happening then?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 45 03-045-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So prior to that integration, By-law was acting independently and ticketing and towing as they saw fit?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 46 03-046-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So then your understanding is that the police was not preventing By-law from exercising its authority; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 47 03-047-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And when you say go in, you're talking about the red zone?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 47 03-047-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so outside of the red zone, before the integration, could By-law ticket and tow as they saw fit?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 47 03-047-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. But not really towing is my understanding.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 48 03-048-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so when you speak of the OPS and By-law integration, is that when -- we had heard on Friday that when some residents would call 3-1-1 to report a By- law violation, they would be redirected to NCRCC. Is that part of the integration that you're speaking of?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 48 03-048-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you're saying that happened sometime in the second week; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 48 03-048-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 48 03-048-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so just on the point of emergency lanes, my understanding is that a lot of the towing that happened early on was to, as you say, keep those emergency lanes open. Can you describe a little bit the emergency lanes, if you will? We've seen images that show some streets appear to be completely blocked by trucks. Was every street supposed to have a lane open for emergency, or was it just certain arteries that had a lane open?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 48 03-048-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Fair enough. So I want to talk a little bit about the city's municipal state of emergency. And I want to take you to OPS5187. And this is from January 31st, which is pretty early on. This looks to be a briefing that occurred with Chief Sloly and the mayor and some councillors. You were there as well and Kim Ayotte. It happened at 11. This is in the institutional report of the City, so I assume you recall this briefing.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 49 03-049-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so it looks like the Chief gave an update. And then if we go to the questions at the bottom. So “Questions”; there we go. And do you know; the questions that are being posed, we can see who’s posing them, but in terms of the answer, do you know who was answering questions at this time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 49 03-049-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if you go to 6, if we scroll down a little bit, if we look at question number 6, Councillor Luloff says: “When do we know when to invoke a state of emergency?” And the answer is: “Infringing on this if we need more resources than we currently have, but does indicate to the public that this is getting more serious and all hands are on deck. Will consider and may make recommendations to the Mayors [sic] office.” So who has the responsibility to recommend to the Mayor’s office whether or not to invoke a state of emergency?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 50 03-050-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so is it fair to say that you probably answered 6(e)?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 50 03-050-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And then so then you said: “Will consider and may make recommendations to the Mayors [sic] office.” Did you consider it at this point, January 31st?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 50 03-050-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so you didn’t recommend, I take it, on January 31st that the Mayor declare a state of emergency?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 51 03-051-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And why not?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 51 03-051-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. But as you mentioned, it does have other functions, such as signalling to other levels of government ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 51 03-051-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- or even, you know, for the public to know, and maybe for the residents to know that the City is taking this seriously, right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 52 03-052-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did you ever tell the Mayor not -- that it wasn’t -- that you did not recommend it? Meaning, did he ever ask you and you say, “No, not yet,” with respect to whether you should -- whether he should declare a state of emergency?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 52 03-052-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So we know that on February 6th, the City did declare a state of emergency. So in your view, what was the tipping point; why was that the right time to do it?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 52 03-052-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So I’ll take you to that document. It’s ONT311. And it looks to be a call between the Federal Government, the Province, and the City of Ottawa. And it took place on February 6th at 11:00 a.m. And so you recall this call with Deputy Minister Stewart?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 53 03-053-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And who was there from the Province?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 53 03-053-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 53 03-053-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So if we go to the second bullet point, it says: “Steve Kanellakos, City Manager from Ottawa, provided an update from the city’s perspective.” And it says: “Steve Kanellakos is concerned about the posture of local councillors who are pointing the finger at the province and federal government to provide assistance to resolve the matter.” And then it says there in bold letters: “Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson is going to declare a local emergency in the City of Ottawa at 4:30 p.m. The expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this.” You said in the meeting that that was the intention of the state of emergency.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 53 03-053-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what kind of pressure were you hoping to put on the Province?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 54 03-054-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

On the 11th.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 55 03-055-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so was part of this, then, an effort for the -- was this trying to encourage the Province or to signal to the Province to also declare a state of emergency provincially?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 55 03-055-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so from the City’s perspective, did it consider that the Province wasn’t doing enough to be engaged in the issues and to help resolve it?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 55 03-055-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then it says -- so if we go close to the bottom, it says: “Ottawa City council is likely going to ask the Premier and Prime Minister to intervene directly. The Mayor of Ottawa Jim Watson is feeling the pressure and want[s] this issue to be pivoted back to Ontario and Canada. City of Ottawa is looking for a way out.” Can you explain what’s mean that by, “City of Ottawa is looking for a way out”? What would you have communicated that led to that notation?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 55 03-055-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we’ll see in a bit that you did speak to the Solicitor General, you and the Mayor had a discussion about what could be done. What -- generally before we look at those documents, what was the general feedback from the Solicitor General to those suggestions?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 56 03-056-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so had the City declared a State of Emergency sooner, would that, you think, have brought in other levels of government sooner to assist?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 57 03-057-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So I want to take you to 2218. And this is now with respect to the City of Ottawa’s injunction. So I’m going to move on to that topic. So if you go to the first email there from Chief Sloly at the bottom, he says -- this is dated January 30th. Yeah, there it is. He says: “Steve, thank you for the call we just had and for your agreement too for the City of Ottawa commence the former process of preparing for and seeking an injunction in regard to the demonstration. My general counsel, Christiane Huneault, will be OPS lead on this matter. She will have the full support of the OPS to provide the information required by the City for this injunction application. We recognize that the City will have the final say on whether or not to make the final injunction submission based on your own assessment.” (As read) And what was your understanding -- you had had a call with the Chief about this. And what was he asking the City to do on that call?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 57 03-057-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did you have an understanding for what -- an injunction for what, exactly?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 58 03-058-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So he didn’t come to you to ask for anything specific? He just said “an injunction”?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 59 03-059-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And he says though: “We recognize that the City will have final say on whether or not to make the final injunction submission based on your own assessment.” (As read) So he seems to be putting the ball on the City to say this is your decision. If you want to do it, go ahead, based on your assessment; right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 59 03-059-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you’re saying in the end it’s up to the City?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 59 03-059-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And on February 4th, I’m going to take you to an email, OTT 3935. And the email of February 4 -- right. So, Councillor Fleury says: “Are you aware of this idea?” (As read) And he posted a Twitter link. My understanding is that was a link to a Twitter post asking the City to seek an injunction? Are you aware of that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 59 03-059-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you saw it at the time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 60 03-060-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And if we go up, this gets forwarded to you then. Or it was -- it was CC’d to you by Councillor Fleury, and then you respond to him and to the City Solicitor, David White, copying other people, saying: “Everyone has ideas, but if they paid attention to the multiple briefings that have been provided to council and the media, they would know that the Chief, and I, and City Solicitor have addressed this idea. We have initiated the process last weekend to go get an injunction. The problem is that once we get it, we have to action it, which means that police have to be prepared to initiate a tactical response to remove the trucks and protests. We are working with police to gather the evidence required to successfully get an injunction and for police to tell us how an injunction would be enforced. This is actively being worked on.” (As read) So what was done between the 30th of January then when you had that discussion with Chief Sloly, to now February 4, when Councillor Fleury is saying, “Has this been thought of?” Essentially, “Have you thought of this idea?”

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 60 03-060-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So you say that the police never answered the questions that the City was asking in order to be able to finalize that ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 61 03-061-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Do you know if answers were ever received to those questions?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 62 03-062-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But the City went ahead anyway and did obtain an injunction ultimately on February 14? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 62 03-062-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So in the end, you didn’t need the police information in order to obtain the injunction, because it was obtained without the police information anyway; right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 62 03-062-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so in hindsight, could this have been pursued sooner? Because you’re having the discussion on January 30th with Chief Sloly, and it’s not actually heard and obtained until February 14, two weeks later - - more than two weeks later.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 62 03-062-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But you never understood that because they didn’t answer your questions?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 63 03-063-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did the injunction obtained by Ms. Li put pressure on the City to get one as well? I understand citizens were not happy about that.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 63 03-063-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But in the end you didn't need that because you defined the scope yourself; right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 63 03-063-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did you ever talk to Keith Wilson, who was counsel for some of the protestors on the ground, about the City's injunction?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 64 03-064-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. They have produced some texts, kind of at the last minute, that have some of those discussions. So my understanding is you did, I just don't know the context of those discussions that you had.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 64 03-064-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

See if I can find it. It would be up to -- we didn't give notice of these, obviously. They came in, I think, last night or the night before, but we do have a doc ID for them. Thank you. It's HRF1466.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 64 03-064-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

It appears it is in the party database at this time. It's HRF, four zeroes, 1466. Okay, while we're looking for that, we can move on to something else and then we'll see if we can get that because ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 64 03-064-21

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

Sorry, Counsel, these are text messages with Mr. Arpin? I thought you said these were text messages with Mr. Kanellakos.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 64 03-064-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

The texts seem to reference a call with Mr. Kanellakos about that.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 65 03-065-03

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 65 03-065-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So because we don't -- we can't seem to get them, we can move on to some communications that you had with federal officials and provincial officials. So I understand that after the first weekend of protests you had some contact with Deputy Minister of Public Safety Rob Stewart. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 65 03-065-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And how did that discussion come about?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 65 03-065-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the purpose of the call?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 65 03-065-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So he's reaching out to you to get a better understanding of what's going on?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And it wasn't necessarily for him to offer any kind of assistance?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And after that, I believe that situational awareness calls were set up ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- and that several of them took place, according to your witness statement, you say February 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And these came out of that initial discussion you had with the Deputy Minister on February 2nd?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And according to your witness statement, these meetings sometimes included Jody Thomas from the Privy Council Office; Director David Vigneault from CSIS; Deputy Minister Michael Keenan from Transport; Commissioner Brenda Lucki from the RCMP; Commissioner Tom Carrique from the OPP; former Chief Sloly; Mr. Kim Ayotte; Laurie LeBlanc from MTO; and Deputy Minister Maurio Di Tommaso, the Solicitor General. Did anyone else that you recall attend these meetings, or is that generally ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 66 03-066-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the purpose of these calls?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 67 03-067-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. So my understanding is that letter from former Chair Deans and the Mayor came on in February 7th requesting the 1,800 officers. And so two of the meetings, on the 7th and the 8th, of these situational awareness calls would have been or could have been about that specific request.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 68 03-068-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And what was the conversation around resources? Obviously resources were needed, but in terms of getting them to Ottawa and how soon they could get here and why they weren't here yet, what was the discussion?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 68 03-068-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was your understanding of the disagreement? Just about counting -- like it was improper counting, or what was the issue?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 68 03-068-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did that ever get resolved during those -- during the time that those calls were taking place?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And the last meeting took place on February 8. Why did they stop after the 8th of February?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-14

Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)

Counsel, I just wanted to let you know that the document is available.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-15

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

We're going to object to the document being put to Mr. Kanellakos. The document was listed by counsel for the protestors as a document they may put to Mr. Arpin only. It was never indicated to us that it was going to be put by -- put to Mr. Kanellakos. So in accordance with the rules, I believe my friends would need to seek leave.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

It was just to be fair to the witness so that he understands the context in which the question was asked, but I can ask it without the context, I'm fine with that.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-23

Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)

Again, though, he wouldn't be aware of the context. If it had have been provided, we certainly would have given it to him, but it hasn't been.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 69 03-069-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

That's fine. So to your understanding, though, you did not have a conversation with Keith Wilson about the City's injunction, a call specifically with Mr. Wilson?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, my understanding is that based on the timeline produced in the institutional report, that you and the mayor had a call with Solicitor General Sylvia Jones on February 9, and we talked a little bit about that. And my understanding was that the purpose of the call to ask Ontario to provide resources to the Ottawa Police Service. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

To provide OPP -- to facilitate OPP officers?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Is that right? Okay. And what was the response for that request?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And in that call what's the issue about the truckers’ insurance and CVOR certificates also discussed?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 70 03-070-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So did the province offer any tangible assistance?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 71 03-071-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 71 03-071-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

LeBlanc.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 71 03-071-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So my understanding is that you also took part in what were called tripartite meetings, and these took place on February 7th, 8th, and 10th. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 71 03-071-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did you participate in all three calls?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 72 03-072-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And my understanding is these were intended to be meetings of all three levels of government, municipal, provincial, and federal. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 72 03-072-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And my understanding is that generally, Minister Blair, Minister Mendicino, yourself, the mayor, Deputy Minister Rob Stewart, and some others joined those calls. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 72 03-072-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Do you know off -- do you recall who else would have been on those calls other than the people I mentioned?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 72 03-072-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

My understanding is that he was in the situational awareness calls, but not in the tripartite.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 72 03-072-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And do you know why -- my understanding is that Premier Ford was invited to participate in these meetings and declined. Is that your understanding as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 73 03-073-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so I'm going to take you to one of the readouts from that meeting, it is SSM.CAN.NSC ending in 2676. And so, this is a read out from one of those tripartite meetings, it looks to be the last one on February 10, and there we see people’s initials. BB is Bill Blair, my understanding; JW, Jim Watson; MM, Marco Mendicino. And if we go to the second page, it looks like your contributions are redacted, and on the second page Mayor Watson says, “We would like to get MTO more involved, put pressure on insurance companies --". Oh, sorry, just up. Yeah, there we are: “We would like to get MTO more involved, put pressure on insurance companies -- it was a disappointing answer from the province. Yet they are always setting up blitzes on the 400 series highways to check tires, etc.” So my understanding is that this is in relation to the call that took place the day before on February 9?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 73 03-073-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And was this in relation to the ask about the commercial insurance that they had declined to get involved?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 73 03-073-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so in terms of other regulations, were these other regulations that the City was asking specifically, saying you know, this regulation, that, can you look into that? Or were you simply saying, can you look at what you have in your toolbox available to assist?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 74 03-074-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And the answer was this is not -- this should not be dealt with at the political level?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 74 03-074-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Was it ever suggested to you that pulling truckers commercial insurance, or doing anything with respect to that would upset the trucking industry, or would upset the truckers themselves?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 75 03-075-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. But -- and it was never said to you there's nothing more in our toolbox, we can't do anything? The answer was simply, we’ll get back to you, and they never did?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 75 03-075-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And then if we go to page 3, if we go down to Bill Blair’s comment, so he says: “Thanks -- if we can speak frankly for a moment. It has come to the media’s discussion that they are not in this meeting for the third day -- statement from On[tario] is that this table will accomplish nothing” So is it fair to say that in the meeting there was frustration at Ontario's lack of attendance?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 75 03-075-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And when Bill Blair says “this table” he means the tripartite meetings?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 76 03-076-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And to your understanding, this comment that's attributable to the Premier, that it will accomplish nothing, was that made in the group or was that made in the media? Do you know?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 76 03-076-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Just -- Bill Blair at the top says, “Thanks -- if we can speak frankly for a moment”. He says, “It has come to the media's discussion that they are not in the meeting…” and I assume this is talking about Ontario, because then it says “statement from On[tario] is that this table will accomplish nothing.”

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 76 03-076-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 76 03-076-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so if we looked at the bottom at mayor Watson's comment, the third line he says: “I can say that I am disappointed that the province has not come to the table -- Premier is telling me, ‘anything you want’, but then there is silence.” Did you share the mayor's disappointment that Ontario was not at the table?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 76 03-076-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what do you mean by that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 77 03-077-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So your understanding is that then the Premier would've told them not to look into that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 77 03-077-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 77 03-077-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Fair enough. now, on page 4, Minister Mendicino, in the middle of the page, says -- just this -- towards the end: “To the extent that Sloly is laying out the plan to colleagues, the Province should be at this table. It is a useful forum to show leadership and coordination.” (As read) So do you agree that it would have been helpful to have Ontario at the table?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 78 03-078-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, back to page 2, where it says “RS”, and we’ll go down. That’s Rob Stewart? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 78 03-078-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And he says: “From what I understand, the plan of the Chief has not yet been completely fleshed out. That may affect the speed with which the RCMP can deploy resources.” (As read) What did you understand -- what was the discussion around this point?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 78 03-078-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And this was the last tripartite meeting on February 10. Do you know why they were discontinued?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 79 03-079-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

I want to speak now about the deal that the City made with the protestors, the negotiations with the protestors.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 79 03-079-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, I understand that on February 8, you received a call from then Deputy Chief Bell?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 79 03-079-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And can you tell us a little bit about that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 79 03-079-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Tell us about the call that you received. What was the discussion?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 79 03-079-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did he tell you why PLT was going to be coming over with protest leaders?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 80 03-080-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you didn’t ask what for?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 80 03-080-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And did you tell anyone about that call before you met with them?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 80 03-080-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so what happened then? Did they come to City Hall? How did that play out?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 80 03-080-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did -- sorry, did they explain to you why -- did they say why they had lost the communication ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 81 03-081-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- with the protestors? What had happened there?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 81 03-081-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And at that point, I wasn’t convinced that I should meet with them, because I felt that that was opening up another door in terms of a signal that we’re prepared to start negotiating. I told them that I need to call the Mayor. And we brought Serge Arpin, Chief of Staff, into the call. So I went into the next room, in my boardroom, called the Mayor, told him that they want me to meet with them and to have -- as a show of good faith, to -- police need us to meet with them. He was very reluctant. His initial reaction was we shouldn’t and thought that doing that was going to put pressure on the Federal Government in terms of, you know, if we meet with them, someone else would have to meet with them. And Serge Arpin was of kind of the same view. So we batted it around a bit and I basically advised the Mayor that I thought I should meet with them and hear what they have to say and maybe there’s something we can get in return, and “It won’t involve you, it will be me, it will be me doing the discussion, and you’re out of it. It’s not a political leadership meeting.” And so ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 81 03-081-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did the Mayor express any concerns about this?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 82 03-082-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 83 03-083-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And sorry, this was around noon, you said?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 83 03-083-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So OPS was the one who made the suggestion that maybe the exchange for meeting with the Mayor would be getting the trucks out of the neighbourhoods?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 84 03-084-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 84 03-084-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Sorry, when Keith and Eva came in after, did the PLT officers also join? Or was it just - --

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 84 03-084-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 84 03-084-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then we had a discussion about the protest and would they be willing to move trucks out of the neighbourhoods. They said yes, they’d be willing to do that. And we said well then we have to work out the logistics, and they’ll get back to us. So we met for about, in total, about an hour and a half, I’d say. Maybe 90 minutes. They left with the understanding that we would reconnect and talk about what the terms would be of them moving the trucks and the conditions under which that would happen, and get an agreement to do that.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 84 03-084-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

What was your understanding for why the protestors wanted to meet with the Mayor?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 85 03-085-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so at the end of the meeting, what was decided, who would do what, what were the next steps that were going to be taken after that meeting?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 85 03-085-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 85 03-085-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Well, my understanding is that the next day you did indicate to Chief Sloly and Deputy Chief Ferguson, Deputy Chief Bell that this had taken place, and relayed a little bit of the information that had been exchanged; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 86 03-086-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 86 03-086-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did they express any concerns about that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 86 03-086-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So at that point, the deal was if you move trucks out of the neighbourhood we'll have a meeting with -- we'll facilitate a meeting with the Mayor. So it was kind of high-level.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 86 03-086-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right, that was the... So no details had been fleshed out at that point?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 87 03-087-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you exchange numbers, you brief the Mayor about what had happened, and then what happened?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 87 03-087-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So then you became the point person for that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 87 03-087-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So between February 8th, when you have the meeting with the PLT members and Tom Marazzo et al., and then the 10th of February when the call from Dean French comes in, was there any kind of movement on that deal between the 8th and the 10th?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Well, I know the 13th was a Sunday.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

It would be a Thursday.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So you weren't involved in the drafting of the letters?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 88 03-088-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So specifically, the letter talks ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 89 03-089-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Sorry. Specifically, the letter talks about Wellington Street. Was that one of the points of discussion with OPS?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 89 03-089-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So then, if I understand correctly what you're saying, on the 10th, Dean French called and announced himself as potentially being helpful or a potential mediator, and then the letters were drafted and sent I believe on the 12th of February, and in that time you were having discussions with Chief Sloly, was it Chief Sloly, or anybody else within OPS? Deputy Chief Ferguson?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 89 03-089-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, so they're dated the 12th, but you're saying they were exchanged on the 13th?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 89 03-089-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so while they're being finalised, your involvement is putting -- getting some input from OPS and suggesting some wording to the letter, including the area where the trucks are going to relocate to ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 89 03-089-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 90 03-090-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And why was Wellington Street chosen? Who chose Wellington Street?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 90 03-090-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So before we get to that meeting, before the letters were finalised I understand that Chief Sloly had a chance to look at those letters; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 91 03-091-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. And actually, that's OTT6985, so I'll take you to that. OTT6985. So he says, "Thank you, Steve," but if we go down to the bottom we can see: "'Steve, as suggestion, alter this line in the Mayor's letter: "As the departure of the over 400 trucks from residential areas is a significant logistical undertaking that will probably take 24 to 72 hours, we ask that protesters stop asking more demonstrators to come to Ottawa this week and over the long weekend..."'" So it looks like that highlighted portion of "this week and over the long weekend" was an edit that he wanted in that letter; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 91 03-091-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go up. You say: "'Hi Chief. The letter from the mayor has already been signed and sent to Convoy leadership. It just hasn't been made public. So can't make edits now but can discuss when we meet them.'"

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 92 03-092-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then he ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 92 03-092-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go to OPS10664. We go -- there we go. It looks to be from Christiane Huneault, and she says: "'Steve – Can you send me a copy of the letters we just discussed on our call re demo convoy negotiations. Thanks.'" And who did you understand her to be?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 92 03-092-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, Christiane Huneault.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 92 03-092-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And she mentions a phone call that you had with her about the letters.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 92 03-092-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

I see, and this would be on February 13th at noon there was a call?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 93 03-093-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

On the Sunday? Okay. And if I can take you to OTT6990? It looks like on Sunday at 1:44 you send those letters to Chief Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, Deputy Chief Ferguson, Christiane Huneault and John Steinbachs.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 93 03-093-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if I can take you to OTT7009? Looks like title is Police Contact, Sunday the 13th at 3:26. You say to Chief Sloly, "Chief, can you please provide the name and contact info of who will be joining Kim Ayotte in the negotiations with the Protest[...] leaders to deal with the egres [and]..." I believe that should be "and"; right? Relocation plan?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 93 03-093-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And what is that about?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 93 03-093-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And who was provided?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 94 03-094-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what did you understand his role to be then, just to -- was he going to be partly negotiating what was going to happen?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 94 03-094-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But by then, the idea that they would be relocating to Wellington had already been determined ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 95 03-095-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- right? Okay. And in your call earlier that morning, or at the noon call, did anybody on the call, Steve Bell, Trish Ferguson, Peter Sloly, did anybody raise any concerns with the arrangement that had been reached?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 95 03-095-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so despite Chief Sloly's reservations, did he ultimately agree that this should move forward?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right, but he did provide you Superintendent Drummond as a ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- OPS representative?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so now we're at this meeting February 13th. You said it was you, Mr. Ayotte and who else was there?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Chris Barber?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah. Was Tom Marazzo there?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 96 03-096-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

No?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 97 03-097-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. How many protest individuals would you say were there? How many protesters were there?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 97 03-097-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 97 03-097-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, I don't know if they're available. They weren't available yesterday, but I'm not sure if they're available now. But in any event, there were a group of protest leaders that were there, you, yourself, Mr. Ayotte. And we don't have a lot of time, so if you can just briefly maybe tell us what happened at that meeting and then we will have to get my friends to pick it up from there.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 97 03-097-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I understand at some point the operations stopped. Do you know why it stopped?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 98 03-098-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I'm just going to take you to the last document, OTT7480. And this is an email. If we go down -- yeah, no, sorry. This is 7480. Yeah, that does look right. Okay. Let's go up for a second. Yes. So Larry Brookson, do you know who he is?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 99 03-099-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Who is he?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 99 03-099-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Oh, okay. Yes, because the email is quite informal, so I figured you must have had some pre-existing relationship with him.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 99 03-099-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

He says, "Hi, Steve. My office is looking to setup a call [this] morning. Wanted to provide you with some context of my concern regarding the City of Ottawa's recent decision which lead to Wellington being turned into a parking lot of 200 plus trucks. Quite honestly Steve I am at a loss as [...] how this sort of agreement could have been worked out with a clear disregard to security, especially considering that we just finished a bomb blast assessment which included the threat of explosive[s] being transferred via large vehicles. Hoping we can find time in the morning.” So is it your understanding that PPSC -- sorry, that PPS, the Parliamentary Protective Service, did not have notice or information about what was going to be happening with the relocation of the trucks onto Wellington?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 99 03-099-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so -- and did you tell anybody at the federal level, yourself, about this deal? I know February 8 is when you kind of had that discussion. And it also coincided with the tripartite meeting. Is that something you would have brought up at a tripartite meeting?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 101 03-101-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so ultimately the Mayor never met with the protestors? Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 101 03-101-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. And those are all my questions.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 102 03-102-01

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Good afternoon, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is David Migicovsky and I act for the Ottawa Police Service. Mr. Kanellakos, I understand that David White, in his email to you, and I can pull up the email if it will assist you, but in the interest of trying to shorten my questions, I wont, but if you do need it, please let me know. My understanding is that he said to you on January 30th that obtaining an injunction to shut down a protest was an extraordinary thing given the Charter of Rights. Do you recall that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 103 03-103-02

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And what Mr. White told you at that time was that OPS’ concerns were, and this is the first weekend, correct, were the noise, the traffic impact, and the public frustration and pollution; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 103 03-103-14

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

But from his perspective, there weren’t any public safety concerns or violence?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 103 03-103-19

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And Mr. White also told you there was an issue as well from his perspective about the potential that enforcing the injunction could give rise to violence as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 103 03-103-22

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Okay. And that same day I understand you then spoke to Chief Sloly and he indicated that OPS would support the City in providing the injunction, but you made it clear it would be up to the City to decide whether to seek it? Would have the final say?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 103 03-103-28

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you ultimately did instruct Mr. White to proceed with that injunction?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 104 03-104-06

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

The names Omar Ansari, Mary Simms, and Stuart Huxley, those are individuals who work in the City’s legal department?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 104 03-104-09

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And they report to David White?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 104 03-104-13

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And my understanding is, and perhaps if you need the document, I can show it to you as well, my understanding is that Mr. White was informed that the OPS said they could provide evidence of the vehicles and the registered owners? I’ll pull up the document, if that would assist.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 104 03-104-16

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

If I may please have OTT29695? Sorry, I wonder if we could scroll down? I may not have said the correct document.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 104 03-104-23

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Thanks. Never mind, I’ll proceed without the document. Ultimately the City was the one, I understand, who made the final decision about an injunction on February 11th and then proceeded on the 14th? Is that correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 105 03-105-01

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And there were cooperation with the Ottawa Police in working with the City on that injunction; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 105 03-105-07

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, I believe that from the Ottawa Police, you obtained -- the City obtained some language with respect to what the enforcement clause of the injunction should look like?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 105 03-105-11

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sorry, what was that answer? I had a hard time hearing.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 105 03-105-22

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And although there hadn’t been written responses to the questions that Mr. White had posed, there had been verbal discussions between the party’s legal ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 105 03-105-27

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- staff? And from time to time, I take it, you were kept apprised of some discussions between the OPS and its policing partners, such as the OPP and RCMP?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-04

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sure. Were you made aware that the OPP and the RCMP, various officials there, had expressed serious reservations about the police getting involved in injunctions?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-10

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Did you subsequently learn that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-15

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you then understood that the Commissioner of the RCMP and the Commissioner of the OPP both had some concerns about injunctions in the context of these type of protests?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-19

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

I think you told us Ottawa has lots of protests and demonstrations; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-24

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And it’s a fact of life. And again I can turn to the document if you need it, but there’s a series of text message exchanges you have with Mr. Ayotte in which you’re discussing an article -- this was on January 30th -- that someone sent you talking about the sentiment of the citizens in Ottawa as of January 30th. And your response to Mr. Ayotte with respect to the article that had been sent to you is that it’s a bit naïve for somebody to believe that the police and the City should have just prevented the protest from happening. Do you remember that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 106 03-106-27

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And we’ll be hearing that some of the convoy that came from out west, and I guess was the first group to leave, were annoyed by the fact that by the time they got to Ottawa, all of the prime spots on Wellington were taken up by others and that they were too far away with their trucks. Do you recall that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 107 03-107-10

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And I understand that on Friday, January 28th is when the convoys started to arrive in Ottawa.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 107 03-107-18

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the major impacts at that time were on Wellington and the Sir John A. MacDonald Parkway.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 107 03-107-22

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And I understand we will be hearing that the spaces filled up very quickly. Is that your understanding as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 107 03-107-26

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And once they filled up very quickly, it would not, I believe, was your perspective, be a viable solution on its own of ending the protest by simply towing vehicles; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 108 03-108-02

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

You ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 108 03-108-07

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right, thanks. And on January 30th -- and again I can turn up the document but in the interests of time I won’t unless you need it, so please do let me know if you need it. On January 30th, there’s an exchange that you have with Councillor Menard, and he asks about the option of having the vehicles ticketed and towed. And then Mr. Ayotte forwards it to you and expresses concerns about that approach, and I think your response is you agreed, and you said: “...where would we put the vehicles that are towed??” Do you recall that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 108 03-108-09

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And on February 6th, 2022, I understand you have an exchange of texts with Kim Ayotte about towing the vehicles, and Mr. Ayotte points out to you that with 500 vehicles in the core, towing obviously isn’t an answer, and you agree that towing these big rigs will not solve the problem. And if I could ask, as well, if we could please turn up Documents OTT01239, and if we -- that is 01239? I’ll find the document if you need it; I’m just going to refresh your memory, but perhaps you’ll agree with me, I think what -- the point you make in a series of exchanges in which you’re discussing Councillor Fleury’s request is: “No way can you tactically tow a heavy truck in this scenario, the way they are parked nose to tail, and it would require a huge amount of police resources.” (As read) You agree with that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 108 03-108-22

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And a few days later I understand the City made an agreement or an agreement was made with the Mayor which in fact resulted in some additional trucks moving on to Wellington; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 109 03-109-12

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

With respect to the City’s authority with respect to streets, I understand that the City gets its powers from various statutes; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 109 03-109-17

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you agreed, as I understood your evidence this morning, and I believe in your institutional report you’ve agreed that the City independently does have the authority to close down roads and highways; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 109 03-109-23

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And they have that authority both under bylaws as well as under statutory authority; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-01

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And I understand, though, that you work cooperatively with police when you do exercise that authority.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-05

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, since the Freedom Convoy, the City has exercised its delegated authority to close down roads; for instance, for Rolling Thunder?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-09

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And for Canada Day as well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-14

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And so in effect, since the protest the parties have, in effect, created exclusion zones, is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-17

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact if we could turn up Document OTT26171? If we could scroll down, please? I think that’s the bottom. So you’ll see Councillor Leiper is proposing a motion; I don’t know if you recall that.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-21

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the motion being put forward by Councillor Leiper is for the General Manager of Public Works to work with City Councillors to close some roads, to diminish the volume of vehicles able to access the downtown core. Do you recall that motion?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 110 03-110-27

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that was, I guess, his concern was the weekend coming up of February 19th and 20th. And Mr. Gonthier, you’ll see if you scroll up, then shares that with Kim Ayotte, and says that the City does have -- the last sentence: “While we have the delegated authority to close roads, I would suggest in this case we would only proceed to do so if supported by OPS.” And you agree that that’s an accurate -- that’s an accurate statement?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 111 03-111-05

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Thank you. One of the -- I’m just moving on to talk about the issue of ticketing. And one of the concerns expressed by Councillors was the present of trucks built or parked on the Queen Elizabeth Drive and the request by some councillors to have them ticketed as of January 30th.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 111 03-111-19

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Do you recall that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 111 03-111-26

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you’ve expressed the view that you did not see what ticketing would accomplish in that scenario, is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 111 03-111-28

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sure, feel free.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 112 03-112-05

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Correct. And I guess you would -- and I can call up the document. It’s OTT29632. And while they do that, I understand that this is a series of text messages between you and Mr. Ayotte? And if we could turn, please, to page 11 of the document. And if you look at 10:08:32, then you can read up above just to give yourself a context. But one of the concerns that Mr. Ayotte expressed about this is ticketing will also anger the demonstrators.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 112 03-112-15

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, there had been experiences, in fact, we see in the next line below a situation in which demonstrators got aggressive in another scenario; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 112 03-112-27

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And so that was always a concern throughout the protests that any reaction that the City or the police take may create a very volatile situation?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 113 03-113-04

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the demonstration, from your experience working with the City, was a volatile situation?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 113 03-113-09

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And enraging protestors, you shared the police concern that that could be counterproductive?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 113 03-113-13

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, Deputy Chief Ferguson communicated with Mr. Ayotte about this situation about leaving the vehicles on the Queen Elizabeth driveway for now, and said that the police had decided to leave them for now, and you agreed with her, as did Mr. Ayotte; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 113 03-113-17

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And I believe at 11:37:47, in that same email chain, you indicate -- 11:37:20: "Steve Kanellakos: 'Sloly got back to Mayor. Mayor agrees that it's not worth inciting the crowd so he's good and supports police decision.'"

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 113 03-113-23

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

If we could please go to document... Or, again, I won't turn it up because we did see it this morning, but if you need it let me know. On January 25th, I understand that some information was forwarded from the Ottawa Hotel Association. And actually, I will turn up the document, just because there's something attached in the chain. So if we could please have 0070?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 114 03-114-02

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

It's OTT, it'll be six zeroes, 70. So if you just scroll down to the bottom. That -- if you can then just keep going up, and then go up. It says, "Hi Sam" -- this from Beth. Beth Gooding is the Director of Public Safety for the City?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 114 03-114-13

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And she's writing to Sergeant Eustace Roberts at the police, and she indicates: "'Hi Sam, We don't know if this is valid or some kind of attempt to purposefully distract but.... Sharing an exchange that was sent to the Mayor's office. Obviously, please treat as confidential.'" And then, that was what you were talking about the information from the Ottawa Hotel Association?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 114 03-114-19

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And then, if you could please turn up OTT0392. And I -- while that's being turned up, I -- if I told you that the police did subsequently speak to the Hotel Association, you wouldn't have any reason to disagree with me, would you?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 115 03-115-02

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And this is on January 26th, so this is just before the protestors came. You'll see, if you look at your email at the bottom at 9:28, 9:30, one of the things you told the councillors is that although planning -- I'm in the second line: "'...has been very difficult because the leadership of the protesters are poorly organized [and you] need their cooperation...[and you have to work] through a number of scenarios. More information will be released as it gets firmed up.'" And that was a problem, was that the information was changing frequently; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 115 03-115-11

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the City and police, you said to me, have worked well together, and you would agree with me that on several occasions during this event you expressed the view that they were indeed working together well?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 115 03-115-27

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

I understand -- if I might just ask you a question with respect to the baseball stadium. I understand -- you talked about the parking there. I understand at one point the Mayor wanted to know if the City had allowed the parking, and you -- at the stadium, and you asked Mr. Ayotte, and he confirmed that the City had in fact agreed to it?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 116 03-116-04

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And with respect to, if I might just ask you a couple of questions with respect to the agreement with the protestors. I understand that the results of the PLTs letting you know that the protestors wanted to meet on February 8th, that you in fact met and I think you said you met with Tom Marazzo, Eva Chipuik and Keith Wilson that day?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 116 03-116-12

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And my understanding, but I may be incorrect, is that the PLTs were not present during the meeting, they brought them to the meeting, however.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 116 03-116-19

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And so the initial part of the meeting was you and Tom Marazzo.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 116 03-116-28

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Is that correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-03

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Okay. And I understand that meeting was about an hour-and-a-half; right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-05

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. There are no notes of that meeting or ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-08

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- emails exchanged about what was agreed to in that meeting?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-11

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the meeting to deal with the logistics was on the 13th, I believe?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-15

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that was I think at 5:30; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-18

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that was just -- that was after the letters had already been signed by the Mayor and Ms. Lich?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-21

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And then the actual move of the vehicle -- of the trucks then started on the 14th; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 117 03-117-25

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And there were about 40 heavy trucks that ended up being moved as a result of that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 118 03-118-01

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And on the 15th, you learned that the police on the ground were not going to continue assisting other trucks in going to Wellington, but would only be letting them move if it was to leave completely; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 118 03-118-05

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, Rob Drummond, you understand, Superintendent Drummond had some exchanges with Kim Ayotte, and he was pretty definitive at that point on the 15th that the OPS was not going to move anymore trucks on Wellington; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 118 03-118-10

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And although he told you that, I believe you were still hoping to try to get things to continue?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 118 03-118-16

David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Thank you very much, Mr. Kanellakos. Thank you for the questions.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 118 03-118-22

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Mr. Kanellakos, I’m Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly. Good morning to you. You have a long experience, not just here as the City’s most senior public official, but also previously in police services, as I understand it?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 119 03-119-02

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Taking the entirety of your experience, this event that the Commissioner is here to understand is completely without precedent? Is that true?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 119 03-119-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And I don’t reckon you’ve got a number for us, but you have seen, in your capacity, either as a senior official in the former Ottawa Carleton Police Service and others, or as City Manager, it’s no exaggeration to say you have been through many hundreds of events and protests in the Nation’s capital?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 119 03-119-13

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

I’d be right? Many hundreds?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 119 03-119-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And there is a significant difference between protests, in your experience, between protest and event? One of my colleagues asked you, I think, about a parade. A big difference; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 119 03-119-23

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. And so what was -- when we -- when the Commissioner considers your experience in dealing with the kinds of things you have seen in Ottawa here, or the kinds of things that you observe your colleagues in the Ottawa Police Service dealing with, what was coming to Ottawa through the Freedom Convoy was something that no one expected? Is that fair?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 120 03-120-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And it’s one thing to -- one of the documents that you just reviewed with one of my friends made the point about the challenge of trying to understand what the convoy organizers had in their own minds as to their intentions, and you were never able to get that information? Is that fair?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 120 03-120-12

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. This wasn’t the Santa Clause Parade, ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 120 03-120-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- where someone would ask for a permit, you would understand and make plans and organize crowds? Now, you were also -- and I think you told Commission Counsel, the City has learned to become very -- through its experience, very respectful of the right to protest?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 120 03-120-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

You are here in the City of our Parliament and Parliament has -- of course in Canada, we respect the right to protest, and you do here in Ottawa?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-02

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And these were -- I think your colleague, Mr. Ayotte, described in an email that appeared briefly, I won’t go back to it, that he felt that police were doing a very good job in balancing, on the one hand, the right to protest, and on the other, the risk of riot?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-06

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. And when I -- I want to - - I just want to ask you about that, if I could, but before I pull up a document, could I just ask you about your relationship with Chief Sloly? You had a good working relationship with him; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-13

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Were you part of his recruitment?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-19

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Did you meet him in that process?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Understood. And you learned through that discussion, I assume, about his long experience as a national police leader?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And including significant experience in managing public order disruptions and protests?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 121 03-121-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. Fair enough. And during the time that you worked with him in your capacity as City Manager and his leading the police service, you agree with me that he acted in good faith and tried to the best of his ability to solve this problem?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 122 03-122-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Now, a couple of things, if I can. Can I please ask for a document to be shown to the witness? Is OPS00005187. It should be, if I’ve got the number right, Mr. Kanellakos, -- and everyone on earth calls you, expect us today, calls you Steve K?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 122 03-122-10

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

I won’t today. But this is a document dated January 31st, 2022. And it is notes of a meeting that concern a number of officials, one of whom present was you. Do you recall this meeting?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 122 03-122-19

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Could we please just scroll down for a moment? There was an update -- just maybe just to there. This is an update from Chief Sloly. I won’t read it all, but there was a thorough update from the Chief to the group including you and the Mayor; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 122 03-122-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And then one of the things that - - just look about maybe two thirds of the way down. Do you see the bullet point that begins with: “100% of resources tied up with demo[nstration] downtown…”

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 123 03-123-02

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

“…members are stretched and tired before and are more now, same with [the] citizens and businesses and with demonstrators. Patience is low and everyone is looking for confrontation.” That was your not just -- you heard the Chief make that report, but that was also your own observation? Is that fair?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 123 03-123-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And in the -- from the beginning, you -- once you understood, and everyone understood, that this was not a protest of the kind you had seen before, but rather, an occupation, I think you told us that there were never enough resources in the Ottawa Police Service to bring this occupation to a successful completion? Is that true?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 123 03-123-18

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And indeed, you have said previously, I believe, that you needed support, always needed support from other police agencies and police services; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 123 03-123-25

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Now, and just one of the questions that I know came up -- I’ll just deal with this very quickly, Bylaw Services. Bylaw Services comes under Kim Ayotte, not the Ottawa Police Service, you told us. Am I correct that there was never going to be any effective solution through Bylaw Services once you saw what you were dealing with here?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-01

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And they don’t get paid, do they, to engage in fist fights with people with whom they’re trying to enforce bylaws, or rolling around in physical confrontations; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-10

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-17

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Every Bylaw officer who was going to go into this area of high conflict was going to have to go in with police escorts; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-19

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Because there were too few resources, it was not a viable option to rely on Bylaw Services, in your opinion?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. Now a couple of other things, if I can. There was -- just talking about resources. Am I right that there was some confusion at the level of the province of Ontario as to how many OPP officers had been made available to the Ottawa Police Service? Do you recall that occurring?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 124 03-124-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Do you recall, though, Minister Jones, ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 125 03-125-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- Sylvia Jones, making a statement that there were, I believe, 1,500 OPP officers deployed here?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 125 03-125-11

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

It was inaccurate and indeed there were -- it was a small fraction of 1,500 at that time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 125 03-125-15

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. But at that time, the time the Minister made the comment, forget who made the calculation error, it was never accurate; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 125 03-125-20

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Do you recall though that it did create some challenges for the OPS because while that information was in circulation, people felt that, “Well, you’ve got these resources. What are you doing?”

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 125 03-125-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And do you agree that that was -- there were never those resources at that time available to the Ottawa Police Service?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 126 03-126-01

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. One or two quick things, if I may, please, Mr. Kanellakos. You, -- the Commissioner is concerned, among other things, to consider recommendations, how to avoid events of this kind in the future, if that is a view that anyone takes. You had an experience with something -- well let me go back one square. Chief Sloly has described this event as a paradigm shift, a change in the way public protest had previously been understood here. You agree with that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 126 03-126-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And you referred yourself to one previous episode here in Ottawa that had occurred that involved something I believe called a snake march or snake marches?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 126 03-126-17

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And as a consequence of the appearance of that, and I won't take the time to have you explain what that is, but when that occurred, you and the -- as a city manager, learned from that experience and took some steps to address that; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 126 03-126-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 127 03-127-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Understood. Did you ever -- can you assist the Commissioner, how many trucks were actually embedded in the geographic areas that you have described?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 127 03-127-07

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Now one or two then final things if I may, please. Chief Sloly made a statement I believe February 2nd that there was no policing solution alone to this problem. And by that, did you understand, or do you now understand that to mean that the Ottawa Police Service was never going to be able to provide the solutions on its own, whether with By-law or otherwise?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 127 03-127-14

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Understood.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 127 03-127-25

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. Fine. And then in terms of the negotiation that did take place that you explained to the Commissioner, the -- I'll just leave it on this basis. Am I right that you and Chief Sloly didn't have any detailed operational discussions as to where the trucks were going to be moved from the residential areas, where they would end up?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 127 03-127-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Understood. And in any event, Superintendent -- Acting Superintendent I think it was Drummond had the operational ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 128 03-128-14

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- responsibility on the ground?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 128 03-128-18

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Can I show you one last document if I may, and just to have your identification of it for the Commissioner's assistance later perhaps? OPP00001521, please. And just -- I'll just need you, Mr. Kanellakos, to help us with a thing I -- do you -- did you participate in a call between representatives of the City of Ottawa, the federal government, and the provincial government on 6th of February?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 128 03-128-20

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And I don't know whether you've had a chance to look at these notes, but there -- lots of people were taking notes. These ones appear to have been taken by the provincial representative.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 128 03-128-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

You see the -- that bullet point describing some comments attributed to you, a concern that local councillors -- that would be City of Ottawa councillors, I presume, "...pointing the finger at the province and federal government to provide assistance [...] Mayor [...] Watson [...] to declare [a state of local --] a local emergency in the City of Ottawa [...] expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this." You've described this. And it goes on and I won't have time to take you through it, but you were present at that meeting, and you knew that people were recording whatever everyone was saying was the situation at the time?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 129 03-129-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. Understood. And that was ultimately the mayor's intention in addressing this matter through the declaration of an emergency was to get the resources that Chief Sloly and others had said were required and that you agree were required.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 129 03-129-26

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

All right. I don't have any other questions for you.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 130 03-130-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Thank you.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 130 03-130-07

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

For the record, the Organizers owe us all, I think ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 130 03-130-12

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is Paul Champ. I am the counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, Community Associations and BIAs from downton.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 130 03-130-16

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

I'll start off, Mr. Kanellakos, asking you about the information that was known by the City before the protest started. Now you told us that the information the City got, you know, the hotels and so forth, you shared that with the OPS or the Ottawa Police Service, but then the OPS provided you and the City with an assessment that they thought it was only going to be three days or so; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 130 03-130-21

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

But there was some information, even in the hands of the City, to suggest that this protest could or would go on for much longer than three days; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 131 03-131-01

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And but the -- I understand the City police did not view that -- they didn't think that's what was going to happen, but did they tell the City about any contingency plans in the event the protest did go on for longer?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 131 03-131-05

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Did you have concerns about that? Did you ask for any contingency plans?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 131 03-131-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

You were aware, Mr. Kanellakos, that you were saying, you know, the numbers vary, and you never quite know about who shows up, but in this particular case, you were aware that a very large number of people were coming from very far away and a large number of trucks. You were aware that those people were coming to Ottawa for several days; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 131 03-131-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right. So the City of Ottawa just relied essentially completely on the Ottawa Police for their assessment of that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 131 03-131-25

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And unfortunately, we now know that that confidence was misplaced; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 132 03-132-03

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And in terms of the response, you know, allowing the trucks to come downtown, the trucks to park on Wellington Street, you've told us that that was all based on the call of the Ottawa Police? That was their decisions and their decisions alone to make; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 132 03-132-07

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So the City of Ottawa was essentially at the mercy of the Ottawa Police and their decisions on these issues; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 132 03-132-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Now in terms of protecting the people of Ottawa, that's a responsibility of the City of Ottawa as well as the Ottawa Police?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 132 03-132-21

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Well, the safety and security of the people of Ottawa, whatever the threats or cause of those risks may be, whether it's from propane tanks, or open fires, or potential crime, that's protecting the safety and security of the people of Ottawa is responsibility of the Ottawa Police and the City of Ottawa; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 132 03-132-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Now on the decision to allow the trucks -- to have the commercial trucks come in and park, you've told us that there was a legal opinion, the city of -- or the Ottawa Police were telling there's a legal opinion that under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that these commercial trucks had the right of mobility to come and park anywhere they wanted. Is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 133 03-133-08

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So they couldn't prevent them from coming in because of the Charter of Rights, that's what you were hearing?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 133 03-133-20

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 133 03-133-25

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah, okay. So you did hear that from internal meetings. And did you ask your own City solicitor to provide you with an opinion on that issue?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 133 03-133-27

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And why was that?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 134 03-134-03

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Okay. Mr. Kanellakos, I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics, I'm just talking about this first point, about their opinion that the -- they couldn't -- they didn't have legal authority to stop the trucks, perhaps, because of the Charter. You and the -- you did not instruct your City of Ottawa Council to look into that issue; is that right?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 134 03-134-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And you had occasion, we've heard evidence, to deal with federal government officials and provincial government officials, including ministers. Did any of them ever express a view about whether the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects commercial trucks?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 134 03-134-21

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

In your evidence, though, Mr. Kanellakos, this morning you were telling us that even by the second weekend, when there was -- you were hopeful that perhaps the police would stop more trucks from coming in the second weekend, but that again they told you that because of the Charter they didn't have the legal authority to stop the trucks from coming in. So by the second weekend that was still your understanding of ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 135 03-135-03

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

--- what the police were telling you?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 135 03-135-12

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Now, I want to ask you a couple of questions about this event/protest distinction. So events, those are things where there's -- someone's holding a celebration or marking a day or whatnot, and they want to go into a park or a parking lot or some -- it can be a private location, it can be a public location, all these things, if they want to put up tents, if they wanted to have a large number of food served. All of those things they need to get permits from the City; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 135 03-135-15

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And we've heard evidence, and we understand that, though, for protests, the City does not require protests, or pardon me, do not require permits because that's an exercise of Charter Rights and Freedoms; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 135 03-135-25

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Does the City have -- but if someone puts on an event and they don't get a permit the City will shut them down quite quickly; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 136 03-136-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

I'm not talking about protesting.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 136 03-136-14

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah. Protests versus event. But for an event, you'll shut them down?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 136 03-136-17

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

On Friday, one of our clients testified, the Director of the Vanier BIA, that they put on events all the time, and they understand very well the types of permits they need, and they also said about the purpose of permits is often about safety. Whether you're putting up a big tent, there has to be adhering requirements and so forth. So it's all about safety, correct, permits?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 136 03-136-20

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right. And so the City has in mind some difference between a protest and event?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-01

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And -- now, do protests typically have fireworks and tents?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-04

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-07

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Or barbeques or hot tubs?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-09

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Or stages and dance parties?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-11

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

They sound a bit more like an event, would you agree with me, Mr. Kanellakos, those kinds of things?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Okay. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the impacts, Mr. Kanellakos. It was your view that a lot of these different activities that were going on in Downtown Ottawa were presenting a serious danger and threat in the safety and security of the people of Ottawa; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-19

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

For sure. And we also know that it substantially interfered with a lot of the public services, of garbage pickup; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 137 03-137-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

The firetrucks had difficulty getting downtown?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-02

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

We heard about one incident with the Chateau Laurier that firetrucks couldn't get to them. You're aware of that event?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-05

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

It wasn't true?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-09

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Really?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-11

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Well, I'm sure the general manager at the Chateau Laurier will find your evidence interesting, Mr. Kanellakos. What about the gas truck underneath the Rideau Centre? That was a serious risk and danger; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-19

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

It wasn't a risk or a threat to have ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 138 03-138-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

--- a truck of fuel in an underground parking lot? That wasn't a threat?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-01

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Well, you can review the emails yourself, sir. I believe the Rideau Centre did believe it was quite a risk and a threat.

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-06

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Now ---

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

--- the paramedics sometimes had difficulty getting downtown; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-12

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

What about garbage services? They were basically not happening at all in that area; correct?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-15

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

In the red zone?

Volume 3 (October 17, 2022), page 139 03-139-19

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)