Paul Rouleau
Paul Rouleau spoke 2683 times across 36 days of testimony.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour. Good morning. Welcome. Bienvenue. Today marks the opening of the public hearings of the Public Order Commission -- Public Order Emergency Commission. My name is Paul Rouleau, and I'm the Commissioner appointed to conduct this Inquiry. Aujourd'hui marque l’ouverture des audiences publiques de la Commission sur l’état d’urgence. Et je m’appelle Paul Rouleau et je suis le commissaire nommé pour mener ces enquêtes… cette enquête. Nous sommes réunis aujourd'hui sur le territoire traditionnel du peuple algonquin anichinabé dans l’immeuble abritant Bibliothèque et Archives Canada à quelques pas de l’endroit où ont eu lieu bon nombre des évènements sur lesquels porte l’enquête. Je voudrais souhaiter bienvenue à tous ceux et celles qui sont ici avec nous ainsi que ceux et celles qui regardent les débats en ligne — parce que je comprends que c'est diffusé au moment —, ainsi que ceux qui vont suivre à travers les médias. I would like to welcome everyone who's here with us in person, as well as those who are watching online, and those who will be following through media. I'm joined today by several members of the Commission Staff, including Hélène Laurendeau, the Commission's Executive Director, as well as Shantona Chaudhury, and Jeff Leon, the Commission's co-lead counsels. They and their teams have been working incredibly hard for months in preparation to start these hearings today, and I want to thank them for their excellent work. Je tiens spécialement à remercier le personnel des Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada, le Brookfield Solutions Globales Intégrées et Bibliothèque et Archives Canada pour leur collaboration à la préparation et à l’aménagement des locaux qui ont été mis à la disposition de la Commission. In these opening remarks, I want to address the following: The role of public inquiries; the mandates of this Commission; the challenges facing the Commission; how the Commission has carried out its work to date; what to expect from these hearings; the participants of the Inquiry; the importance of openness and transparency, and finally, the policy phase of the Commission. Le rôle des commissions d’enquête. Pour bon nombre de personnes, il s’agira de la première commission d’enquête à laquelle elles participeront et à laquelle elles assisteront et suivront. Par conséquent, je voudrais dire quelques mots au sujet des commissions d’enquête et de leur nature. Une commission d’enquête est indépendamment nommée par le gouvernement et chargée d’enquêter sur des questions d’importance publique. Les commissions sont dirigées par un ou plusieurs commissaires qui ont la responsabilité générale des travaux de la commission et l’obligation ultime de faire rapport sur l’objet de l’enquête. Les commissaires sont assistés par des avocats, du personnel de soutien, administratifs et techniques et sont souvent accompagnés d’experts, de chercheurs, d’enquêteurs et d’autres spécialistes. Les commissions d’enquête sous souvent appelées « enquêtes publiques » du fait qu’elles cherchent à être transparentes et ouvertes. Les audiences sont normalement tenues en public et toute personne a le droit d’y assister, comme on le voit aujourd'hui. Commissions of Inquiry perform two important functions. They make findings of fact, and they make recommendations for the future. The fact-finding role of Commissions of Inquiry serves an important social purpose. To borrow the words of Peter Cory, who was then a judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, and I quote: "One of the primary functions of public inquiries is fact-finding. They are often convened, in the wake of public shock, horror, disillusionment, or scepticism, in order to uncover 'the truth'." End of quote. Uncovering the truth is an important goal. When difficult events occur that impact the life -- lives of Canadians, the public has a right to know what has happened. But inquiries are also forward-looking. They seek not only to understand what has occurred in the past, but also to learn from those experiences and to make recommendations for the future. A Commission's recommendations may be modest or wide-ranging; they may be directed at a range of audiences, including government, public bodies, and the private sector. It's also important to understand what Commissions of Inquiry do not do. They do not make findings of legal liability. They do not determine whether individuals have committed crimes. While inquiries seek to uncover the truth, they are not trials. Questions of civil and criminal liability are decided by courts, and not commissions. I'll turn now to the mandate of the Commission. Like other Commissions of Inquiry, the Public Order Emergency Commission has been given the mandate to seek out the truth about an important event. However, unlike other Commissions of Inquiry, we have two mandates, one given to us by Parliament, and one given to us by Cabinet. Le mandat confié à la Commission par le Parlement se trouve à même la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence. Lorsque le Parlement a adopté cette loi en 1988, il a choisi d’y inclure une règle importante. Si le gouvernement déclare l’état d’urgence, il doit également créer une enquête pour enquêter – et je cite – « sur les circonstances qui ont donné lieu à la déclaration et les mesures prises pour faire face à la crise » – fin de citation. The mandate from Parliament, therefore, is one of public accountability, the public's legitimate right to know why the Government proclaimed an emergency, and whether the actions it took were appropriate. When Cabinet took the step of establishing this Commission, as it was required to do, it set out an additional mandate: Our Order in Council directs the Commission to examine, first, the evolution and goals of the convoy movement and border protest, and their leadership organization and participants. Second, the impact of domestic and foreign funding, including crowdsourcing platforms. Third, the impact, role, and sources of misinformation and disinformation, including social media. Fourth, the economic and other impacts of blockades; and, finally, the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. There is, however, an important caveat to this mandate from Cabinet; the Commission is asked to examine these issues, and I quote: “To the extent relevant to the circumstances of the declaration and measures taken.” (As read) In other words, although these topics have been identified as worthy of attention, it is the mandate that has been given to us by Parliament that drives the Commission’s work. While this Inquiry will deal with a wide range of issues, its focus will remain squarely on the decision of the Federal Government: Why did it declare an emergency; how did it use its powers; and were those actions appropriate? This Commission exists to promote transparency, accountability, and public confidence. I hope that this Inquiry, and the transparency we strive to provide, will bolster the public’s trust in our systems of accountability. Now the challenges facing the Commission. Discharging my mandate is not an easy task. The Commission has faced many challenges in reaching this point, and will face further challenges as the Inquiry proceeds. The biggest challenge has been time. This Commission of Inquiry is unique, to the best of my knowledge, or our knowledge, is in that its deadline is set by statute. Other inquiries have worked under deadlines set by Cabinet. That sort of deadline is set based on an assessment of the time needed, and can, and frequently is, extended as circumstances require. This is not a possibility for our Commission, in the absence of a change in the Emergency Act itself. Our deadline is established by statute, as I’ve said. It is a short one, and it allows, by statute, for no extensions. Just how tight are the timelines? Let me try and put it in context for you. The Air India Inquiry was established on May 1st, 2006. It took just over four years to issue its report on June 17th, 2010. The Commission on the Decline of Sockeye Salmon was established on November 5th, 2009 and its report was made three years later on October 31st, 2012. The Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls was established in September 2016 and issued its report almost three years later on June 3rd, 2019. This Commission, on the other hand, was established in April and must table its report in Parliament on February 23rd -- 20th, rather; trying to give myself three days, February 20th, 2023. So it has only 300 days; so it’s measured in days, not years, to complete its work. Ces contraintes de temps extraordinaires ne sont pas le seul défi auquel la Commission est confrontée. L’accès aux documents pertinents a également été difficile. Le gouvernement fédéral a déployé des efforts considérables pour fournir à la Commission des documents provenant d’une douzaine de ministères et d’organismes. Pourtant, le processus a été complexe; les documents ont continué d’être fournis à la Commission jusqu’en octobre, jusqu’à aujourd'hui — on en a eu plus récemment, je pense, en fin de semaine. Bon nombre de ces documents remis à la Commission sont classifiés sous réserve de la sécurité nationale ou d’autres revendications de privilèges. La Commission a dû déployer des efforts considérables pour déterminer comment ces documents pouvaient être traités, utilisés et partagés. Elle a pu développer un processus qui assure que le public aura accès aux renseignements pertinents au travail de la Commission. En plus de ceux du gouvernement fédéral, la Commission a reçu plus de 50 000 documents de gouvernements provinciaux, des services de police, des municipalités, d’organisations non gouvernementales, de groupes industriels, d’individus et d’entités privées. Tous les documents reçus ont dû être soigneusement évalués pour en déterminer la pertinence et le privilège et ont dû être analysés par les avocats de la Commission et, le cas échéant, communiqués aux parties afin qu’elles effectuent leur propre examen. The process of getting to this point has been challenging. These public hearings will no doubt present all parties with new challenges. Commission staff and parties alike have had to be flexible, innovative, and creative in their approach to their work. These hearings will need to be conducted in a manner that will allow the Commission to fulfil its mandate within the timelines that it has been given. They also need to be fair and meaningful. Guided by the principles of openness, timeliness, and proportionality, I intend to ensure that they are. Now, how has the Commission carried out its work. I want to give the public a little more detail about the work that the Commission staff have done over the past four months to conduct their investigation and prepare for these hearings. Shortly after being appointed, I set about selecting and retaining a senior staff, and retained the services of Commission counsel. I then, in consultation with counsel, guided the work of the Commission. Several investigative dossiers were identified, and each was headed by a senior Commission counsel. Additional counsel were hired in the weeks and months that followed to assist these investigations. In order to ensure that the various parallel investigations did not exist in siloes, junior counsel were appointed to multiple dossiers, and all the Commission counsel would meet weekly to keep each other apprised of the status of the work and keep the network working together. Now, this requirement to pursue the investigation in a number of parallel streams explains why you’ll see several different Commission counsel leading evidence in the course of the hearings. Now, counsel worked to identify, request, and obtain relevant documents that were in the possession of parties to this Inquiry, as well as non-parties. In the case of the Federal Government, this process involved addressing the government’s assertion of Cabinet confidence, which resulted in the government agreeing to a significant disclosure of information otherwise covered by Cabinet confidence. As I understand it, this is only the fourth time since Confederation that Federal Commission of Inquiry has been granted access to Cabinet confidences. À mesure que les documents ont été obtenus et analysés, les avocats principaux ont commencé à mener des entrevues avec des témoins clés. Ces entretiens ont pris diverses formes allant de brefs appels téléphoniques à des réunions d’une journée avec des groupes de hauts fonctionnaires; des manifestants et des ministres ont aussi été interrogés par la Commission. Reconnaissant que le temps d’audience serait limité, le personnel de la Commission a également demandé et obtenu des rapports institutionnels de diverses entités, y compris des ministères et organismes fédéraux, de gouvernements provinciaux, d’administrations municipales, de services de police et d’entités privées. Ces rapports résument les renseignements dont ces entités disposent et fournissent une description de leur participation aux évènements entourant la déclaration d’état d’urgence. Ils seront, le cas échéant, déposés à l’audience dans le dossier de preuve. To ensure that key questions are addressed during these public hearings, Commission Counsel then allies the information available to them and prepared evidence be presented in a number of different ways. They've prepared summaries of the interviews that they conducted, and to ensure fairness, the interviewees have been given the opportunity to review these summaries and approve them as accurate. The interview summaries have been shared with the parties to ensure that they are aware of the information obtained by the Commission. In some instances, these summaries may be introduced to supplement and facilitate the oral testimony of interviewees. In other circumstances, the summaries may simply be entered into evidence where it may be unnecessary or impractical to hear from the interviewee in person. Commission Counsel have also prepared a series of oversee reports. They summarize large amounts of evidence related to a particular issue. They have also worked to prepare lists of witnesses who will provide live testimony in these hearings. Enfin, les avocats ont examiné la grande quantité de documents reçus fin de déterminer lesquels étaient pertinents pour les questions dont la Commission est saisie. Ils sont en train d’être communiqués aux parties de façon continuelle. Pour ce qui est des documents reçus du gouvernement fédéral, ce processus comprenait l’évaluation des affirmations du gouvernement concernant la sécurité nationale et le privilège de l’intérêt public et un effort visant à rendre le plus de renseignements possibles accessibles au public. Tout au long de ces travaux, le personnel de la Commission a entrepris d’innombrables tâches supplémentaires allant de trouver des locaux pour les audiences de l’enquête à la rédaction de règles de procédure et prendre les démarches nécessaires afin d’assurer que le rapport final puisse être produit à temps. It is important to emphasize that the investigative work that I have just described has been that of Commission Counsel. During these hearings, I will be hearing the bulk of this evidence for the first time, just like members of the public. To that end, I have made no findings and reached no conclusions about the issues that I have been entrusted to deal with. While I'm not sitting as a judge in these hearings, my 20 years of experience as a judge have informed my approach to the inquiry. I intend to take a judicial attitude to my job. By that I mean that independence, impartiality and fairness are my touchstones as Commissioner, just as they are in my role as a judge, which I will take up again after these hearings. Like a judge, my findings and conclusions will be based on the evidence that is presented to me. I will keep an open mind throughout and will only reach a final conclusion once the evidence is all in and final submissions have been made. Now what to expect in the hearings. We have scheduled approximately 30 days of factual hearings. At first glance, that may seem like a great deal of time. In reality, our time is very limited, given the breadth of the issues that have to be covered. This Commission will need to hear from dozens of witnesses and examine thousands of documents. Our timelines are tight and there's little room for error. For these hearings to be successful, I'm relying not only on my Commission Counsel, but on the efforts of all Counsel appearing before me and the parties they represent. This is not a trial. It's an inquiry, and I expect everyone will work cooperatively to ensure that the facts and information necessary for the public to understand what happened and why it happened will be elicited. I appreciate the spirit of cooperation that the parties and their counsel have demonstrated thus far, and I expect it to continue. While this is not an adversarial proceeding, I recognize that different points of view will be forcefully advanced. This is to be expected and will help ensure that a clear picture of the events is presented, and the decisions made or not made by key actors are fully analyzed. It is important, however, that at all times, disagreement be respectful. Parties and the public should also expect me to actively control the proceedings. Deadlines and time limits will be established and enforced. Parties will be required to focus on central issues. Not every witness who might be called will be called. Relevant evidence may be adduced in writing. Objections and procedural wrangling must and will be kept to an absolute minimum. Throughout this process, I will be relying on Commission Counsel to take the lead in presenting the evidence. For members of the public who have not seen a public inquiry before, the role of Commission Counsel may appear a bit unusual. They do not represent a party. They are, in effect, an extension of the Commissioner. They do not advance any particular point of view, but rather, they lead evidence in an impartial and balanced manner. Their only goal in these proceedings is to elicit the evidence necessary to establish the truth, whatever the evidence may be. Now other participants. Commission Counsel are not the only persons who will play a role in these hearings. There are also some 20 parties to whom I've granted permission to participate in these hearings in a variety of ways. This includes the Government of Canada, as well as provincial and municipal governments, police forces, protester representatives, community organizations, non-governmental organizations, parade associations and individuals. Each has their own interest in the issues that will be addressed in this inquiry, and each brings their own important perspective. They too will play an important role in the process. Afin de permettre la participation des personnes et des groupes qui, autrement, ne seraient pas en mesure de prendre part à ces procédures, j’ai fait des recommandations à la greffière du Conseil privé pour qu’elle accorde du financement à certaines parties ayant qualité pour agir. J’ai exposé les raisons pour lesquelles j’ai formulé ces recommandations dans une série de décisions qui sont disponibles sur le site web de la Commission. Bien que je n’aie pas le pouvoir d’accorder une aide financière, la greffière du Conseil privé a accepté mes recommandations. Outre les parties, la Commission a également bénéficié de la participation du public. Dès ma nomination, il m’a semblé évident que j’avais besoin d’obtenir les commentaires des Canadiens et Canadiennes de tous les horizons sur leurs points de vue et leurs expériences relativement à tous les aspects de mon mandat. C'est pour cette raison que la Commission a mis en place une méthode en ligne accessible aux membres du public afin qu’ils nous fassent part de leurs points de vue, observations et idées sur les circonstances qui ont motivé la déclaration de l’état d’urgence et les mesures prises par le gouvernement pour y répondre. We have received a number of submissions from individuals expressing a range of views, opinions, beliefs and ideas, and we look forward to continuing to receive submissions as these hearings unfold. Commission staff will carefully review all submissions and will prepare a report on the public input received and this will be shared with you. To the members of the public who took time and effort to share your insights with the Commission, I thank you. The inquiry has benefited from your contributions, and I will be mindful of the views expressed as I continue my work. Now openness and transparency. The role of a public inquiry under the Emergencies Act is very much about serving the public. Maintaining public confidence in our public institutions, and holding government to account can only be achieved through a process that is committed to openness and transparency. To that end, the Commission has worked hard to make these proceedings as accessible as possible. The hearings themselves are open to the public to come and observe. The media has been invited to broadcast our proceeding, and anyone around the world, in fact, is able to watch or listen to the hearings on the Commission’s website. Transcripts of proceedings will be produced and made available for download. I’ve already said that much of the evidence in this proceeding will be adduced in writing. The Commission also intends to post all documents that are made exhibits to the Commission’s website so that the media and the public will be able to read and understand all of the evidence before me. We expect that thousands of pages of material will ultimately be posted. Enfin, comme il s’agit d’une enquête nationale, nous nous engageons à veiller à ce que nos procédures soient accessibles au public dans les deux langues officielles. Les témoins pourront témoigner en français ou en anglais, et toutes les procédures seront traduites simultanément. Les documents préparés par la Commission ou en son nom sont traduits et publiés dans les deux langues officielles sur le site web de la Commission. Dans la mesure du possible, les versions françaises et anglaises seront diffusées simultanément. There may occasionally be limits on the Commission’s ability to be fully open to the public. Much of the material reviewed by Commission Counsel during their investigation is classified or subject to public interest immunity or national security privilege. As a result, there may be short portions of the hearing where classified evidence will be presented to me, which cannot be opened to the public or the parties. We will strive to keep such hearings to an absolute minimum. The Policy Phase. I’ve already spoken about how this Commission will not only look to the past, but also to the future. The Commission’s mandate includes a direction to make recommendations for potential changes to laws or practices relevant to the matters before this Commission. Pour soutenir ce volet des travaux de la Commission, nous avons mis en place un programme ambitieux de recherche et de politiques au cours des derniers mois. Afin d’aider la Commission, un conseil de recherche composé d’universitaires de partout au Canada a été mis sur pied. Présidé par la professeure Geneviève Cartier, le conseil de recherche a travaillé sans relâche pour commander des documents de recherche, informer le personnel de la Commission sur des questions techniques et façonner l’orientation générale de la Commission en matière de politiques. Much of the Research Council’s work is already available to the public for viewing. A series of 14 research papers on topics relevant to the Commission have been posted in both official languages to the Commission’s website. After the factual phase of the Inquiry is complete, the Commission will be holding a series of policy hearings to further explore the broader issues relevant to the Commission’s mandate. This will include policy roundtables involving experts and stakeholders, who will present their views to the Commission so that I may be better equipped to make recommendations about the future. Now, in conclusion, this Commission is about to begin the process of finding answers to the questions assigned to it by Parliament. What led the Federal Government to declare an emergency? How did it exercise the powers that it obtained? And were its actions appropriate? These are matters of fundamental importance. Ce sont aussi des questions complexes. Pour y répondre, j’aurai besoin d’entendre beaucoup d’éléments de preuve dans un court laps de temps. Ce sera un défi, mais je suis persuadé qu’avec la collaboration de toutes les parties, les audiences offriront un processus impartial et exhaustif pour la présentation des preuves nécessaires afin que la Commission puisse donner au public les réponses auxquelles il a droit. The exercise by government of the exceptional powers given to it by the Emergencies Act affects directly, or indirectly, all Canadians. In the 34 years since its adoption, this is the first time the Act has been used and this is the first opportunity for its review. How and why the powers in the Act were invoked are matters of great public interest. With the cooperation of all parties, I’m confident that the hearings will provide a fair and thorough process for the presentation of evidence required for this Commission to be able to give the public the answers to which it is entitled. With that, I was going to say brief, but let’s say modest introduction, I’d like to turn the matter over to one of my co-lead counsel, Shantona Chaudhury, to set out what the next steps are. Thank you. Merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. So that introduction I think has been very helpful. We have a little time to get started in -- if parties are willing. Today is a little bit lighter than the days that are coming. I can assure you, you're going to have to be prepared to work hard. Alors, peut-être qu’on peut commencer avec la présentation des différentes parties. À moins d’autres suggestions, je vais juste suivre l’ordre que j’ai devant moi. Unless there's any objection and people want to arm-wrestle, I suggest I'll just follow the order on the sheet in front of me and call on the various parties to briefly introduce themselves, three to five minutes, if you wish, so that I and the public will know who is participating in the hearing. So starting with the Government of Canada, if I could ask, I'm not sure if it's Mr. MacKinnon or who will be presenting, but go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, perhaps you can do it over there. It's -- it might be better for the -- getting the visual, if that's okay. And you don't have to face me, you can face the crowd. That's -- like the counsel did.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon. Now, I'm not sure, some parties may not be here in person, and I'm not sure mechanically how we're going to do this, so let me see how it works. Is the Government of Saskatchewan here? And if not, are they going to present by video? There we go.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If the Government of Saskatchewan can go ahead, and I'm not sure if it's Mr. McAdam or Morris?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. So the next I have on my list is the Government of Manitoba. Again, I'm not sure if they're online rather than in person. I suspect they're online. Maybe not. Okay, if -- there may be technical issues, so I’m not sure what the status is.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So it’s -- that was John Mather who was making that. So if Manitoba is online, they can email Mr. Mather. Next is the Government of Alberta. Again, believe they were supposed to be online. Here they are.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I’m not sure if that’s -- who is speaking, but I’m sure you’ll introduce yourself. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Ms. England. So that’s -- those are the provinces who’ve, so far, sought and obtained intervenor or party status. So now I’ll go to the various municipalities, starting with the City of Ottawa. Commençons avec la ville d’Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci, Maitre Tardif. Alors, la prochaine municipalité… the next city is the City of Windsor, who is also a party.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. Merci. Okay. The -- next we are going to turn to police services. And I’d like to start with the Ottawa Police Service, if I could.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could then move to the Windsor Police Service?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next if I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. I’d like to then call on Peter Sloly’s counsel to address the assembly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Then I think next we should hear from the convoy organisers who are also involved in the proceedings of the Commission.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now the residents group, the Coalition of Residents and Businesses of Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Perhaps we're -- I'm about to turn to the various organizations that are also have standing, but before I do so, avant de passer aux différents organismes qui ont participé à cette enquête, je pense qu’on va prendre la pause du matin. Alors, on n’a pas un horaire fixe, c'est à ma discrétion, je suppose, mais en général on va prendre une quinzaine de minutes le matin et une quinzaine de minutes l’après-midi. Aujourd'hui, c'est un peu moins chargé, mais peut-être que c'est un bon moment, it's a good moment to take our morning 15-minute break, and when we come back, I'll turn to the various organizations that have standing. So we'll take 15 minutes, and I thank you all for your attention.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, merci, thank you. On va reprendre avec… on va commencer avec les associations et avec aucun ordre d’importance, vous ne devez tirer aucune conclusion du choix, on va commencer par le CC… le CCLDL, CAD, CLA, une série d’organismes qui sont ici. Monsieur DelBigio?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. Next I'd like to call on the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on… j’aimerais demander la prochaine association, the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Thank you. I now call on the National Police Federation.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation and Professor Alford. Yes. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well if I could just interrupt, there’s on grant of standing and the norm is with one grant of standing, there is one counsel or presentation. And it’s a bit unusual and I don’t think that should be the practice. The reason they were put together as one was that we streamline the process. I’m prepared to make an exception for today, but that is not -- because I assume you’ve prepared on that basis. But you should not, as a rule, proceed in that manner. If I can ask you to coordinate your presentation, whether it’s Mr. Alford, or you, or Ms. Shanmuganathan. That’s up to you. But I don’t want it to break down into different parties. There are many other organizations that are sharing a standing and they’ve all cooperated to have one presentation. So with that caveat, Mr. Choudhury, you can go ahead on this exceptional basis today.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Mr. Alford.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now I'd like to call on The Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, and JCCF Coalition, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I won't repeat the comments I made earlier. I think you're well aware that from now on it will be one presentation rather than three, and for today I'll make the exception I made in the previous case. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. Now I understand there are three other parties to the proceedings who have, in some cases, more limited involvement and interest in the proceedings, either for mostly the policy end, so -- and they're not present today either in person or by video, as I understand it. They would be the Government of Manitoba, which I referred to earlier, as well as the Canadian Association of the Chiefs of Police and the Insurance Bureau of Canada. So that -- with those three, that makes up the roster, if you like, of parties with standing. I want to just first say I'm grateful to the parties for the assistance that they have given the Commission to date and for what I hope will be continued assistance. Anyone who had the illusion that this would be easy and uncontroversial, I think the presentations have started to lay out some of the differences and issues. It's a challenge, but it's one which the Commission is eager to take on. Ça nous fait certainement plaisir d’avoir toutes ces différentes parties qui ont le statut de présenter devant la Commission et il y a certainement bien des points de vue, mais tous les points de vue sont bienvenus pour essayer de composer avec tous les problèmes, les questions pour en arriver à une solution, et la Commission est vraiment heureuse de relever le défi. So with that brief introduction of the parties, I think we'll now turn to the beginning of what I will call the evidentiary phase, and the first is more through the presentation, as you've heard, as I understand it, of the various reports. So I'll turn it over to Commission Counsel now to take us to the next step.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Sheppard. I wonder is it appropriate at this point to mark that as the first exhibit?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So Madam Registrar, could you enter the overview report as -- I take it it's Exhibit 1?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so that will be marked as Exhibit 1. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I take it this should be the next exhibit, Exhibit 2.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Okay, thank you. Madam Registrar, this will be marked as Exhibit 2.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that will, Madam Registrar, will be Exhibit 3. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now we have two more reports, I believe, and it looks like we're going to be ending early today, something a bit of a bonus, which I don't expect we're going to have very often, but it's -- it was intended to be an overview day, without any witnesses. That will start tomorrow. Alors, c'est fort possible, et je dirais même inévitable, qu’on va compléter un peu plus tôt aujourd'hui. So the next matter then?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Can I just -- just before we hear from Mr. Lacombe, I assume these will be available to the public, and are they -- are we going to put them as exhibits or in another place on the website?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's fine and we'll advise the public how they can access it in due course then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Lacombe?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Alors, il reste une dernière présentation, si j’ai bien compris, et peut-être qu’on peut la rentrer et… avant le diner et puis il n’y aurait pas besoin de revenir après le diner, c'est… est-ce que j’ai bien compris?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ah, bien, ça va nous sauver du temps.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Merci beaucoup. Thank you all. So we've run through quite quickly the introductions and the opening statement, which I didn't belabour too long on, and I think we can start tomorrow, 9:30, with the - - I believe there are a series of panels tomorrow. Should be -- I hope will be covered in -- without extending too late tomorrow. I hope will be another not too severe day. But we'll wait and see. There are -- seeing no other issues being raised, I suggest we rise until tomorrow. Alors, on revient demain à 9 heures et demie pour commencer la preuve comme telle avec des panels qui vont commencer à présenter la preuve, si je comprends bien, sur ce qui s’est passé à Ottawa. Alors, thank you all. Merci à tous.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour. Good morning. Welcome, to Day 2. Bienvenue à la deuxième journée, and our first day of live witnesses. Before I call on the witnesses, there are just a couple of matters I want to raise. The first is the -- what the public and the media know, in particular, with respect to exhibits. I may have mislead people yesterday in calling Exhibits 1, 2, and 3. As the parties know, the documents that become exhibits are put into the database that's available to the public in accordance with their unique document number, not as exhibits. And it's important to know that all the exhibits that go into the database that's available for the public, all the documents are not necessarily referred to in the hearing, in the sense that there are many documents that will become part of the record, either because they were referred to in the overview reports you heard yesterday, so that not only the overview report goes into the record but all of the documentation that supports that. Same thing for other types of reports or affidavits or witness statements, when they go into evidence, we -- what we have arranged, if you like, is that all the backup goes in so that the full record will be composed not only of documents referred to here, but documents referred to in the backup documentation. So a little bit complicated, but it's simply to alert the media and the public that when you go to the website of the Commission, you'll find a lot more documents that back up the statements and the evidence. The parties know this because the parties have been provided these documents, have reviewed them, and they may question witnesses about them, but it's a much more fulsome record. Because of the timelines we have, we couldn't spent days noting documents and putting in all of that evidence. The contentious evidence you will hear at the hearing. Don't worry about that, the parties will ensure that. La deuxième chose que j’aimerais soulever, c'est qu’il n’est pas permis d’enregistrer ou de diffuser de vos téléphones, et cetera, en salle. There is no livestreaming allowed or a recording of the proceedings. It is livestreamed by the Commission, but people should not be doing this from their own phones. So with that brief introduction, there are -- this, according to the schedule, will be a busy day. It -- if it goes according to plan, we will not finish before seven o'clock tonight, so let's get started as soon as possible because we have scheduled a full day. It can be shorter if people shorten their cross-examinations, and we'll -- but obviously the times have been allocated and we'll hold people to it. So Commission Counsel, ready to go. Ms. Rodriguez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the witnesses have been sworn.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just give a moment for the registrar to take back the Bible. Okay, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now for cross- examination, have the parties agreed on an order for the cross- examination? Seeing no response, I will simply call on parties to cross-examine in accordance with the time that has been allocated. So I think the first cross-examination is to be carried out by the convoy organizers, so who's going to be doing this? Okay. So, Mr. Miller, you're on. You have 20 minutes if you need it and given that Commission Counsel has gone a bit over time, I -- we can give you a little bit of leeway, but not very much.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure it's relevant or not, but is it -- it seems to me that it's not unreasonable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s February 4th.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Pardon me, the 7th. February 7th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There'll be a brief opportunity to re-examine ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- at the end so.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the next I will call on the Government of Canada to briefly cross-examine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I will call on the Ottawa Police.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next I'll call on the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. And the next is the Ottawa Coalition. Any examination there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Does Commission counsel have any brief follow up?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I want to thank both witnesses for their coming forward to the Commission and for their evidence. The Commission appreciates you coming forward. I also want to thank counsel for the parties, it was very disciplined cross-examination, a very good start, and so we thank you both and you’re now relieved of your obligations and someone can come forward and assist Mme. De La Ronde to --
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. While the witnesses leave, this may be a good moment to take the break and we’ll come back after the break. We’ll take 15 minutes, and when we come back we’ll proceed with the second panel.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think we’re ready for the next panel. On est prêt pour le prochain panel.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can accommodate that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Again, I’d ask, has there been any agreement on the order of cross- examination? Seeing no indication, I will call on again on -- in terms of the length of time that’s been allocated, starting with the convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to be clear, Brown and Dunn is simply, they put a statement to you that it may be contradicted later. So you should have a chance to comment.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just want to point out you’re out of time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if you want to wrap up or get to a point?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A lot of this, I think, has been a bit repetitious.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now -- okay. Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you can go ahead and ask whether or not that's -- she's made that statement before, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I don't think you can cross-examine on that statement, unfortunately.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was not put into evidence, and we don't know the circumstances in which that was done, et cetera, but I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'll give you some latitude.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wait a minute. I don't think that's ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is not a statement of anticipated evidence. I think that's been made clear.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I think that's going beyond what I allow.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. That's -- the next is the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you referring to the statements during the hearing, sir?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Then that's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the counsel for the Government of Canada.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And finally, the, or next is the Ottawa Coalition.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any brief additional question?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're at the time for lunch. It's -- if we could come back at two o'clock, that would be much appreciated because we have a big afternoon, which will probably take us past six o'clock and maybe even past seven o'clock. So again, I want to thank counsel for respecting the timelines. That's much appreciated, particularly on a day like today where we have a lot of evidence. So we're going to reprise until two o'clock. And thank you to the witnesses. I forgot.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you both.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Much appreciated. Un grand merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Retournez à ma ville natale de Vanier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Merci. Vous remarquerez que j’essaye d’être ponctuel, je ne garantis pas que ça va toujours être le cas, mais c'est une déformation de vingt ans comme juge, alors je m’en excuse à l’avance, mais ça va être la façon qu’on travaille. Okay. So we have, I believe, another panel that’s ready to go, Ms. Rodriguez?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, oui. Oui, oui. Prenez votre temps. Take your time. Get settled down.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I think the witnesses would like a moment so we’re going to take five minutes. I’m going to be a bit of a dictator so they’re going to be short. This is five minutes, not 15, so five-minute break. Merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. We’re going to have to take a break at some point because I think, among other things, the interpreters need some breaks too. I know you all are pretty strong and want to go through and I love the punishment. But I think they need a break. Now, the question is we can start briefly with the Coalition, or break now. I don’t know.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ah, y’a des… y’a des signes ici, alors…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we can take a sort of -- I had thought we’d do it about five o’clock if that’s okay, and you could get started. And unless there’s a different order, I take it. I’m not longer asking whether there’s agreed order, so if there is, let me know. But I'm assuming there isn’t. So is it okay to get started with the Ottawa Coalition and ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’d do your 30 minutes at once. And then it would be at 5:10 the break. Because I think we’re going to go late, so I'm trying to break it at a good spot. Is that okay? Or do you want a break now?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then let’s take a 15 minute break. Let’s try and keep it to 15 minutes, please. Quinze (15) minutes, s’il vous plait. Merci aux interprètes. Thank you to the interpreters.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We’re into the last stretch.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just introduce yourself for the record ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and for the witnesses.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Scroll down ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you -- again, we need ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- people to introduce themselves for the transcription.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, maybe you can just ask if they can confirm their understanding or what they know about this meeting. And then we can go from there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just go up a bit to see what these questions are? I think it’s just -- it’s not clear to me either what this is recording.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What is the -- that’s not a complete identification.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the convoy organizers, if you have any questions.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
By introducing yourself, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And thank you for being brief. Next is Former Chief Sloly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Careful. Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Okay. City of Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A nice Friday night gift. Okay. But you get no credit for that in the balance, just so you know. It’s day by day. So that ends for today. I can thank the two witnesses for your contribution. Merci beaucoup for your assistance. Très apprécié. So that ends for today. Earlier than the 7:00 o’clock I threatened. And I wish everyone a nice weekend. We’ll be reconvening at 9:30 on Monday morning and we look forward to the continuation. We adjourn for the day.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Day three. Looks like a very interesting week. On a des témoins intéressants cette semaine. Alors, je pense que c’est la Commission qui convoque un nouveau témoin. Est-ce que vous êtes prête? D’accord, Madame Rodriguez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
April 1st.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we went a little bit over, which I regret. And the -- but we’ll take the morning break at the moment, and we can start with the cross-examinations right after the 15-minute break. And I will show a little latitude in cross- examination, given the excess of -- in the direct, which is pursuant to our rule when in-chief, where the evidence presented by the Commission will be matched in terms of cross-examination time. So 15-minute break. We’ll be back at five minutes to 12:00. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome to the second phase of the evidence, which is the questioning by the various parties. So if I could call on the Convoy Organizers to go first? Okay. So there’s some technical issues with the document production? Okay. Okay. Well can the Ottawa Police Service then go ahead?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s over there, they’re scrolling, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you speak just a little louder, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Who's up next? Are -- is the convoy organizers, are you still -- okay. Still organizing. The organizers are organizing. Okay. Mr. Sloly -- Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is either the Organizers or the Ottawa Coalition. Do you want to take another pass? Okay. Okay, well, it's okay. We're all trying to get to the same things here. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. We have just sort of five minutes before lunch. Can I ask for the Democracy Fund maybe to go ahead, since they’re a five-minute examiner, and we’ll then take the lunch break? I’m sure Mr. Kanellakos needs a little time. And we’ve almost an hour of cross left. So go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well we’re a few seconds away from 1:00 o’clock. So what I’d suggest is we’ll take the lunch break. Everybody, I think, needs a little time. So we’ll come back at 2:00 o’clock. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good afternoon, bon après-midi. This is just a reminder that there's no recording allowed in the room. Il n'y a pas d'enregistrement qui est permis. It is all live-streamed, so it's available to everyone, but it's -- I mentioned it last week and I mention it again, and if there's failure to cooperate, I'm afraid we're going to have to exclude people who are not cooperating. So just a reminder, please, no recording of the proceedings in the room. Okay. So with that brief comment, is the Convoy Organizers, are you -- is this a convenient time? Okay. Well, let's see the product.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think that comes pretty close to questioning ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- on it. You're asking him to confirm that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- information. So perhaps we can go at it in a different way, and you can put to him questions about certain facts and does he agree with that and go at it one ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sort of block at a time without reference to the memo, because in the end, he can't confirm what ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Mr. Arpin said or didn't say and he'll be up, if all goes well, pretty soon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just to let you know, I think you're now on borrowed time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm willing to be accommodating, but there you go. You are also. Okay, thank you. So next, if I could call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I could call on the CCLA. And they'll be on the video.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
CCLA is the -- she'll introduce herself.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next if I could call on the Criminal Lawyer's Association?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Now if I could call on the City of Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s fine. I think we - - you’re just showing how the system works. Ultimately it -- I hope people are appreciating how all these documents come up in our control. It’s obviously a lot of work behind the scenes. Much appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Is there any re-examination? Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just reintroduce yourself for the public.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Well, thank you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Steve K, for your contribution and for coming forward.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you're excused.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next witness that's being called?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It just has become -- may have become obvious this segment will be in French, so there are obviously -- no, it's going to be in English. I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm sorry. I was misleading.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, Mr. Arpin, you are, of course, free to testify in either language. If you're going to switch, as an earlier witness did, if you could give us a warning, so that people can put on the translation equipment, because it's -- we're not all bilingual in the room and everyone's entitled to follow the proceedings. And so if you are going to switch, please give us fair warning. Okay. I'm sorry to have interrupted then. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can we have a moment? Can you step out, please? Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think we deserve a short break. Well, I'll make it 15 minutes if that's agreeable? And we can come back at 5:20. And it looks like we're going to go quite a bit later, assuming the cross- examination goes as provided and assuming our witness is able to hold up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we should plan on staying until quite late. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Merci. So first up, I believe, are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next if I could call on the Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe the Commission counsel can help you with the number?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Mr. former Police Chief Sloly, Counsel, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I’ll call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to sort of be a little bit shorter. I'm giving you a little more time, but it's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, the next is the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. To the point. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If nobody knows, nobody can identify ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just let me finish, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think what we would need is to know what time these pictures were taken, where they were taken from, what they depict, by someone who knows. I’m just trying to make sure. That’s what would be useful for the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know when they were taken?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, we’re trying to get -- understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have a couple of short questions, Mr. Arpin. One is the -- and I’m just trying to understand about the 400 trucks. Your understanding, I just want to confirm, is that there were 400 trucks that would be moving pursuant to the agreement that you negotiated or that was negotiated?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And they could all be accommodated, if need be, on Wellington?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The 400, okay. And then the other thing I wanted to ask is you mentioned, I think you called it a temporary solution that you were negotiating between the 8th and the 13th. Was there a plan for a permanent solution at that time by the City?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there was no plan to resolve the problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This lack of police resources, what was the plan if they didn’t materialize? As I understand it, you had the discussions with who you reviewed, but did you see anyone as being responsible for coming up with a solution?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You use the term, “Belatedly”; what do you mean by that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To work collaboratively?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you’re -- I can try and summarize; you had no plan in that period, 8th to 13th. No plan was possible, in your view, without cooperation, and collaboration was late in coming. Is that a fair summary?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. And thank you for coming to testify, appreciate it. We’re all trying to get to those solutions. So that’s, we’ll end for today. And we’ll be back tomorrow morning at 9:30. I want to thank counsel, and in particular our interpreters and staff for staying late. That may be a regular event, but it still means that they deserve thanks. Merci à tous, et bonsoir.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, good morning. Okay. Today I think we start off, unless there's any preliminary business, I think we start off with the mayor of Ottawa. Is that correct, Ms. Rodriguez? Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just, you might slow down a bit for the interpreters. I’m just worried that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes. Be back at 25 to, or 24 to. And thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll take the time and go off for a break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we’re now into the second phase of the testimony. So if we could call on the Convoy organizers to go first?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The next up is Mr. Sloly's Counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. We can take 10 minutes ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- now and 15 minutes after lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So break you up into two parts.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. We'll rise until two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. You're ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And counting. The Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next we have the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt briefly? You're going to have to wrap up quickly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'll call on the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to call on now the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Mayor Watson, if I could just ask you on one subject, you mentioned at one point that the -- when you were having discussions with respect to the federal government, and I think you mentioned something about you couldn't go to the provincial government and berate them unless the federal government came across first. And you also said at one point the feds needed to do their duty, and that was with respect to policing. How do you see the federal role? Do they have an equal obligation, in your view, for the policing with the province, they're equally responsible, or do you see it differently? I'm just trying to understand, let's just say, because you were in the province before and you're now with the City. So I'm trying to understand that relationship.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. I guess my question was, you said the feds need to due their duty, and my question is really, do you see the federal government and the province having equal responsibility for policing in this area? Do you see that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And thank you for the time you took to come here. And good luck on your last stage in a very distinguished career.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now, while Mayor Watson leaves, I believe we’re going to be filing some documents.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, sorry. Oh, I forgot. Mayor Watson, there is a possibility of re-examination. I’m sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, Mayor Watson.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now we’re going to just -- before we go to the next witness, we’re going to file some documents, which is going to be a weekly event.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now, next we’re -- we have a further witness, Mr. Rodriguez? And perhaps what we can do is start that evidence and maybe a break in, say, about somewhere around four o’clock, if that’s agreeable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back at 4:15.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, Counsel. First up is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the convoy organisers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next it’s former Chief Sloly’s counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next would be the Democracy Fund JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to go a little slower; I’ll even give you an extra minute or two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know, but it’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But it’s with the interpreters.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, it’s the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCDL and CLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now to the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Ayotte. I just want to make sure I understood what you said about the fire issue with the Chateau Laurier. And you said they dispatched four fire trucks?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That would be the appropriate number of trucks, or was that more trucks than what the appropriate response is?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So, just so I understand, so when you say it wasn’t a high risk, it’s because it was broken fire plug, if you like, or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sprinkler. But if there had been a real fire, that would be a real problem having not all of the trucks that were dispatched and, presumably, there would be more trucks dispatched if it were a real fire.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I guess all I’m trying to understand is the inability of some rigs to get there would have been a bigger problem if there had been a real fire. Because I think what I’m trying to understand is whether when you said it wasn’t serious, it’s because it wasn’t a real fire but access would have been limited if there had been a real fire.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that would have been a big problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you’re not saying it wasn’t a problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the same thing for Kent Street. If there’d been, as we saw, I think, yesterday, apartment buildings on Kent Street that were inaccessible ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- because Kent was blocked, that would have been a serious problem if there’d been a serious fire?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I thank you for coming. There’s just one more. You may some re-examination. No, there is no re-examination so we’re done for the day and we want to thank you for coming ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and testifying today. And thank you all for ending it a little earlier than I thought, and we are back tomorrow at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, bonjour. Welcome to Day whatever. We're going to take a short break. Counsel have asked to have a few moments to review one piece of evidence before we start, so we're going to take 15 minutes and we'll start at a quarter to 10. And again, I apologize for the delay, but these things will happen. So we're starting at 9:45 this morning. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning again. Re- bonjour. I take it there's a witness ready to go? I believe so?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could introduce yourself for the record?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we’ve got into a bit of a dispute here, so we’ll try and get it organized in a proper way. So, firstly, what is being sought? Are you intending to pursue this?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So what you’re trying to understand is what was the result of that meeting?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What she understood from that and not to relate the specific statements by ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the lawyer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any objection to that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any problem with that? I see you’re standing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So I think – oh, sorry, yes? You can remain seated, it’s probably better for the microphones. As long as I can see you, I’m happy.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think there’s a real issue around this also with respect to the testimony of the Mayor. I think you talked about this subject I believe also. So what I’d suggest, is counsel can discuss this. At this point it’s academic. I understand what you’re saying about it and it may come up on cross, so I’d suggest counsel, and Commission counsel, discuss this at the break or at the lunch because it should be discussed before the cross- examination. And certainly there has been a lot of talk about legal opinions, but I’m not going to go much farther at this point; it’s a question of what the City is going to -- the position the City will take and if that could be cleared up over the break, or the lunch, that would be appreciated; okay? Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good moment to take the morning break or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So before you turn to that, we’re going to take a 15-minute break and so we’ll be back at a quarter to 12.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you for the comments. Firstly, as I think was noted, you received it maybe two minutes after the Commission received it. So it’s not a question of the Commission, it’s a question of the documentation coming in. I think it’s been generally explained why it was not produced, but I think that could be explored further. I do share, obviously the Commission shares, the concern about fairness. Fairness is fundamental to this process. So if there are fairness issues, I will entertain them. Whether that’s required or not at this stage, I don’t know. Nor do you, I gather, because you don’t have instructions. So what I’d suggest is that we explore a little further why this wasn’t produced so that the record is clear, at a minimum, and then once you get instructions, we’ll see where we go from there.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think your concern was clear; I understand it; I was simply putting for the record that -- and the reality is, and I think it was clearly put in my original statement, is that, you know, we are pressed for time; so are all the parties, but first let’s start where the -- why this was late disclosure; I think that’s important it be on the record and maybe that can be explored briefly. And if it’s any comfort, you’re not the first on the list to cross-examine, so you’ll have the opportunity to get more time on that. But be assured, the Commission is concerned to the degree that we want to be fair and not knowing what’s in the recording, me either, I’m not in any position to say much more. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I think that’s helpful, I assume, for your getting instructions in terms of the process and the fairness issue, and we can deal with it after lunch if there are further -- if there’s follow-up on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, you’re going to have to make it quick.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There’s another objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have a little bit more time. The first to cross-examine I think is counsel for the former Chief, Mr. Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. It's a little early, but if it's a good time for you, we'll take the lunchbreak, and come back at two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Make it very short, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next on the list we have the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the next up is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So just to get confirmation, is there any objection to the recording being played?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Seeing no objection, we'll sit back and listen to the witness in her own words and the witness from yesterday. Okay. Is that -- has that been lined up? Are we able to do that now or is that a problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, very efficient, eh? Okay. Madam Clerk, you can play it. [AUDIO PLAYBACK]
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's 10 minutes of your time. So go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ask the question. Don’t add the editorial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s not the test.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, I’ve missed something. You say the Commission is to look into the expenses of the City?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t see it as having any relevance, the amount that was paid. I think it’s been in evidence that he was paid severance, and I don’t think we -- I don’t see the relevance of going any further.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And by the way, your time is up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a minute and a half.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. You came under time. Okay. Next is the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. The next is the Government of Canada. And as you come up, if I can just be clear, I'm sure you know this, Mr. Migicovsky, is that if it becomes relevant, the question about salary with another witness or you -- somehow it becomes a relevant to this Commission, you can of course renew the question. I'm sure you know that, but I just want to be clear about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re now back to the final -- the Ottawa Police Services Board. Do you have any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It did and I skipped you. I apologize. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s been entered, as I understand it, so, yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, Commission Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you can raise it. I think Chief Sloly’s counsel, or former Chief Sloly’s counsel would raise the issue if it is brought up, as I understand it. I just was pointing out the normal routine, and if it becomes relevant I’m not sure how we would deal with it, it was simply there. Because when Chief Sloly testifies I can’t anticipate what’s going to happen. And sometimes something is not relevant at one point, but further evidence raises issues. I -- not much I can do about that, but I’m on the notice that you have a view and I think we can deal with it when and if the time comes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And so that completes, as I understand it, subject to re-examination -- because I take it you have no further submissions on behalf of the Board?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Or questions, rather. Okay. So go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think that ends the testimony of Councillor Deans. Thank you very much for your evidence, for coming forward, and as was said earlier, for your service. We’re going to go take a 15-minute break, until we move to the next witness. It looks like it’ll be another late day, so people should prepare in consequence. I’m not sure how late we’ll go because what we don’t get done today will be added to tomorrow. So 15 minutes. We’ll come back at 25 after 4:00. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just one last -- I just want to thank counsel for having worked out the potential issues. It’s appreciated, and resolution is always appreciated with respect to time and disputes. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could just interrupt, Superintendent? Just if you could slow down a little bit because all this is getting translated as you go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I know you’re effective, but -- effective with a little more patience in speaking will help.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, we’re going to keep going if you’re up to it, and if so -- I take it you are up to it? Okay. So we’re going to take a 15 minute break so that you can load up with water or whatever and come back and we’ll go through the cross-examinations. Fifteen minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Welcome back. First up is the Ottawa Police Service. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Your time is just about out on my clock, so if you could try and wrap up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I call on the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The pressure is on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s probably the best way to proceed if we can’t get video, if you’re prepared to do that, otherwise we can find another option. But are you prepared to proceed on that basis?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What was that number again, sorry?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ontario Provincial Police; any ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have maybe a general question. You talked about, and we heard a lot about, Project HENDON. Is there a federal equivalent to that type of updated information circular, almost, like, you provide?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know of any reason why it's Ontario that's -- the Ontario Provincial Police that's quarterbacking this rather than a federal agency?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then just another thing and I'm not sure, my note is not clear, but I thought you distinguished between a potential national security threat or a risk to -- of national security -- to national security. Is there a difference between the two ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and could you explain that for me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now you didn't mention the Manitoba border crossing or the Surrey border crossing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a reason for that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony and it's very interesting and forthright. Thank you very much. You're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we're now going to break until tomorrow morning, 9:30, and tomorrow should be a little bit shorter day, but don't count on it. We have always some uncertainties which makes it always a challenge but also interesting.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Today, we have a new witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm not sure. There is a bit of an echo. Okay, is that better? Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
(Inaudible response)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just for the record, maybe do the number.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I think the - - certainly you're correct in terms of the Commission is to bring out the evidence either way and to bring all of the facts to the public eye. And to the degree there is material that goes the other way, I'm sure Commission Counsel will refer to it, and if they don't, I'm sure you will, but I can assure you, our objective in this hearing is to provide the public with all of the information, pro and con, of course, as you point out. And can't guarantee we're always a hundred percent correct in what we do. We do the best we can. And, of course, you also know that there is always enough cross-examination time to equal the amount of time Commission takes. So in total, we hope that all of the different perspectives are brought out. And yesterday I think was a good example, where there was some very useful, I thought, information brought out by the various parties participating. So I certainly am grateful for the contribution of all the parties. So your question is noted, your concern is noted, and I'm sure Counsel will take it into account.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so do you want to take a short break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we can take our morning break, 15 minutes, and we'll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The first up in cross-examination is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is former Chief Sloly's Counsel, and it looks like it'll be like yesterday, you'll be split in two, if that's agreeable. You'll do 10 minutes before lunch and then -- and finish after lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just introduce yourself, please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’ll take an hour for lunch and come back and continue this. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could first introduce yourself and speak up a bit, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to now call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that would be fine. It's been entered in evidence, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if she needs it, it can be brought up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could try and focus on questions she can answer? I mean, I appreciate you've prepared them, but you know ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm not sure it's helpful to the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, Deputy Chief, thank you for coming. I just have a couple of very quick questions. I’m just trying to understand a bit about PLT that you talk about it. And would I be correct in saying that they are intended to stop lawlessness and turn the protest into something that is legal or not disruptive -- would be an objective of PLT?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And “to leave”, i.e., leave where they’re disruptive?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, in terms of the process here -- and I think I saw somewhere in your testimony that by the Monday, you called it an “occupation”; it moved from a protest to an occupation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any discussion or thought given to how to allow the protest to continue in some form because -- as opposed to -- it seems, and I’m not putting words in your mouth, like it was from black to white or black to white, however you want to call it; it was a protest, “Okay, you’re okay until the end of the day Sunday,” but now it’s an occupation. Do you understand what I’m trying to get at?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there was no part of the plan to allow a continuing or to encourage the protestors to in some way -- and I realize there’s a lot of trucks and a lot of problems but the move towards something that was -- because as I understand it, there were a lot of people who were protesting who weren’t violent and were not problematic; would that be fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, thank you very much. Thank you for coming and thank you for your testimony. I think what we’ll do is take the morning break now and -- or “morning break”, I’m sorry. I’m hinting you’re going to be here a long time. But no, that’s just a slip of the tongue, sorry. So we’re going to take the afternoon break so we’ll take 15 minutes and let the -- everyone have a -- get their -- stand up and get a little exercise, so 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. Just before we call the next witness, just to give you an update for counsel and for those who are glued to their computer at home, we’re planning to go ahead with the next witness, who I believe will be two hours or so, and then we’ll adjourn for the day. So we’ll give you an early day. Tomorrow at the moment, it appears it’s not going to go very late. It will be a bit shorter than normal for those who want to make arrangements, so just to update you on the plan so far. So with that introduction, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is no 33.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you, Superintendent. That’s very useful, and the bad news is, we want you back tomorrow.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we're going to adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning, and if everything goes right, you should be out before lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We'll rise til 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, bonjour. So we have Supt. Abrams. If you could come forward, please? (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you ready to proceed?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the first up, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
25th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Migicovsky, you're well over time, so I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the lawyer for former Chief Sloly, Tom Curry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ve not seen that type of trading going on ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and I don’t want to encourage it, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but I have been a little bit liberal because it’s Friday ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and we don’t have as much of a heavy schedule. But I -- so I will have some indulgence, but please don’t abuse it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Let him finish.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- again, you’re interrupting. Please, let him finish.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you’re over your time and I’m being generous.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s important to be fair to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please, let’s -- you get to ask questions, don’t turn things around, please. Be fair to this witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think he said south of the 401.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re well over your time, so you’re going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you -- according to my notes, you had 10.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the Province of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to do it very quickly, you're already over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now if I could call on JCCF Democracy Fund?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any examination by the OPP next?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that completes your examination and cross-examination. Thank you very much for appearing and for your evidence. It's complete, you're now free to leave.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, so we're I think at the time where everybody's entitled to a break. So we will take a break until five after twelve, and then we'll come back and go with our next witness, who I understand is Chief Superintendent Pardy.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Okay, we have another witness, Counsel? Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I think he said he'd swear?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On a religious document?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Bible?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it’s a good time for lunch ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we’ll take an hour for lunch and come back after.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Very perspicacious on your part. Okay. So they’re going to break for lunch and we’ll come back in an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Okay. We’re ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a little over 17 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. This may be a good time for an afternoon break. I think it’s -- since we’re going to go for certainly an hour or better. so I’ll take a 15- minute break and we’ll come back, if that’s okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We’re back. Are you prepared to proceed? Okay. Next I’d like to call on the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, we’ll call upon the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the JCCF Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I’m not sure mechanically how we can do this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, is there any objection? Obviously, if the OPP seems to have no problem with it, I think it should just go ahead. If you can give the number so that we can then get it before the Commission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if you want to follow up on it, you can ask at the time, and obviously, I have discretion to allow that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Government of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Government of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Does the OPP have any re-examination or any examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am sorry, I must have skipped them. I apologize. Mr. Champ, you have five minutes, and I’ll even give you six if you need it, given my error.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now I will call on the OPP. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Can I just check with the Government of Canada? Are you content; there’s nothing further you’d like? No. Okay. I just have a couple of questions, Chief Pardy. About -- there have been words about what the operation, and it’s been referred to, as I understand it, as ending the occupation but also some people have said ending the protest. Is there a difference, in your mind, between the approach of saying the plan is to end the protest, or end the occupation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And in that, I just want to ask you if you could have a look at your Mission Statement, and we’ve had it referred to and I think it’s OPP1851. And I think we might be at page 8, I think, if I’m correct for the -- go down a bit or -- yeah, it’s up a bit. It’s the Mission Statement I’m looking for. No, that’s not the right document, then.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Then where would it be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It may be further down. I think it was ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Page 8?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There it is. Okay. And I’m wondering here you’ve put in: “...with the utmost respect to the individuals Charter of Rights and Freedoms...” And I was wondering; was there any thought about there are protesters there that may wish to protest appropriately, if I can call it, without breaking law; i.e. continue a protest legally in some manner, in some place?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was that taken into account?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess that’s why I was wondering about your answer as saying ending the protest and ending the occupation you took as being the same.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the PLT was seeking to reduce -- shrink the footprint, but are you saying they also would facilitate a continuing legal protest in some location or in some manner?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any part of the plan that provided for this aspect that you’ve just described that you could continue your protest legally, just not here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- are you aware of people after, or members of the public, in media or otherwise, criticizing, after the fact, the operations, saying they simply wished to peacefully protest?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Fair enough.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And so just to close that loop, so are you -- do you feel the plan was adequate in terms of allowing continued protests for those who may wish it at -- in retrospect?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
One other thing I just want to explore briefly. You spoke about PLTs. And I don’t know how to put it. It was not necessarily embraced as it maybe should have been by OPS in this operation. Is that fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I meant the initial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, a lot of the work of PLT involves, as you’ve talked about, negotiating, de- escalating.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And for those who wish to bring a quick end to a protest, PLTs maybe are not viewed in the same way? Or they’re viewed as delaying what they wish as a result?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You may be going the wrong direction -- you’re thinking I’m going the wrong direction. I’m not disagreeing with that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What I’m trying to get at is the public often is not aware of the role and importance of PLTs because they want results. Would that be fair? In some cases.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I guess all I’m asking is, do you think an important component in a protest such as this is educating the public on the need for the process to be worked through, negotiation, et cetera? In other words, because we heard a lot about public pressure to close ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- this down. And I’m just asking whether there is a role for public education?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. And thank you for your testimony. Very -- we appreciate, even though you’re in retirement. Yes, I’m sorry?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m -- there is no provision for re-examination. We’re not going to reopen it. There will be plenty of witnesses you can question about the process as they come through. But I’m not going to reopen, because you wouldn’t be the only one.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So with that, thank you for your testimony, and especially since you’re retired. Appreciate it. We’re going to rise until Monday morning at 9:30. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Great Monday morning. Nice to see you all back again. So we have a new witness this morning?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead. Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just introduce yourself for the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me a minute. Are you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we have a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So internet connection is gone for everyone, but not for me? (LAUGHTER)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe there's something to be read into that. Just take a moment, and the technicians are dealing with it. Because obviously, those who don't have perfect sight may not be seeing the monitors. Can you tell me when it's back up? Thank you very much. (TECHNICAL ISSUE - SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you want me to take a break to -- while you fix it? Okay, we'll take a 10-minute break and come back. Sorry about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand the technical glitch has been corrected, with our apologies.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The paragraph right at the top.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Here. "Interim Chief Bell saw it as OPS" ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the morning break. We’ll take 15 minutes ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and come back I guess a little after twenty-to. Thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re near the time for the lunch break, so just if you could be sensitive to when’s a good time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it’s convenient.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the lunch break for an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome back. There’s a bit of an internet problem. It’s not here. It’s the service provider, which means that we don’t control it. We’re working on trying to get it joined. We have two choices. We can continue and all of our functions continue, the webcast and the access to the document, but you will not have access on your laptops. You may be able to tether to your phones, but that’s an issue. So the question is whether we should or should not proceed on that basis. We can delay. I’m looking for a consensus or a response. I obviously don’t mind because it doesn’t affect me, so that’s what I’m canvassing. If you could -- I’m told you have to introduce yourselves because they’re having trouble in the transcripts when there’s an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Obviously there’s a lot of organization in the convoy organizers. So if that resolves everyone -- to everyone’s satisfaction.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there you go. Thank you for that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could call on the counsel for former Chief Sloly, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police at this stage?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, just a moment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just identify yourself again?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the question with a request was and the witness will answer that he wanted the actual words of the report. I don’t -- I didn’t take him to say he wanted to see each of the reports, but that’s up to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, this may be a good time for the afternoon break. People may need to stretch their legs so we’ll take 15 minutes and come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’d like to call on the convoy organizers. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you speak up a bit. It’s not ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm sorry. There's an objection. Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just let him finish his objection, then we can try and solve it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, you were about to add something?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have any objection to reference to this document? It seems to me it's the police document you referred to earlier.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. On that basis, is that -- can we proceed with this at the moment?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If you could make clear when we put it up, just so the record is clear?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead. So -- and just so I know, so you've -- what is your annotations here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the red column is simply your addition or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- lining up all the numbers?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it's just simple math; 29 to 13 is not ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- 17, it's 16.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re pretty well out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the Ottawa Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have to scroll down. I'm sorry, up, up, yes. All right.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a note, you're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can hear you but cannot see you yet.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is like the fourth time you’re going at that same question so I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the Province of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just identify for the record again, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So that terminates your evidence. Thank you very much Acting Chief Bell.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I think we're ready for another witness I take it. Who is leading this witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Inspector Lucas. Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Fair.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. For cross- examination I believe it's first Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re about out of time, so if we could wrap up, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it's necessary go ahead, but...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The OPP, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, well, I could have been more generous. The Ottawa Coalition?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to slow down a bit in your questions? Because the interpreters, I think, are going to have a lot of trouble.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know there’s not much time, but.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next if I could call on the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time at the moment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next I call on Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, maybe speak up a bit more, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we can hear you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And now for the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you'll re-identify yourself for the record?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Insp. Lucas, I just -- thank you for your evidence. I’m just trying to understand one piece. And the record may be clear, but I’m not quite clear. As I understand it, the plan, which we saw, did not encompass any plan for the post-weekend stay of truckers. That was something that was discussed and worked on, but there was no document at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I’m just trying to understand. You said there was a plan or discussion of how you would deal with that, but you also said that there was a lost opportunity to reduce the footprint. And I’m just trying to understand the play between those two, and specifically what you meant by what would have been done if you had been left to your own devices?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the lost opportunity you say is because you could not use PLT? Because I’m just trying to understand what was the lost opportunity and what caused it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So that terminates your evidence. Completes your evidence. Terminates sounds a little negative. So we’ll -- so that completes your evidence. Thank you very much. So we’re going to take the morning break. It’s a little late, but I think it’s still necessary. And when we come back, we’ll go on to our next witness. So 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bon après midi. So we have another witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We’ll take the lunch break till 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you ready to continue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First, I believe it's counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I’ll call on the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'll call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now for the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is all being translated and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- interpreted, so please, slow down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to now call on the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
None. Okay. I just have one question, and you may not be able to answer it, but you were involved in the, if I can call it, the end piece when they ended the protest and police involvement. And you were involved with the PLTs at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any option offered at that time for continued, lawful demonstration? In other words, if people, and assuming there were demonstrators who wanted to continue a lawful demonstration because their aims had not been yet achieved, was there an option made available to them somewhere, some way to do that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm just trying to understand, and I appreciate what you say about the ongoing, but I'm -- and you may not know the answer. But as I understand there was a, sort of a exclusion zone created ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and people couldn't go in except certain individuals.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what was the final direction to people? Was it "you have to leave the zone"? I'm talking about the final days when ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- there was action. Was it at that point there would be action, you had to leave the zone, the protest was over, or was there an offer of something?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, that's very helpful. Thank you for your testimony and for coming to the Commission, and thank you for your work. We're going to take the afternoon break. You're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we'll take 15 minutes and come back with I believe it's a new witness. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, good afternoon. I just -- I’m sorry to be coming back always sort of quickly. I know everybody’s trying to cooperate but we’re -- obviously, we all want to get out early so I’m trying as much as possible to keep the schedule. Okay, so we have a new witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. You can look at your own based on what are told you have, but just say, "I'm looking at my notes," so that it's clear for the parties, okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know when will be a good time to break? Because as I understand this witness, you're going to be quite a bit longer, so it's going to carry over in any event?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is this a convenient time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'd suggest then we break until tomorrow, if that's agreeable with you also.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sure you're happy to end the day at 6:30. Okay. So, we'll break until tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we will complete the in-Chief and then go to cross-examinations. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Are we ready to proceed, Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Appeased.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Appeased.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t usually ask questions until the end, and usually it’s well covered by everyone, but I may.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re going to move to the cross-examination phase. If I could ask counsel for former Chief Sloly to go first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Again, you need to go ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- a little slowly for -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Perhaps this is a good time for the morning break, to give everyone a little time to stretch their legs, including Supt. Bernier. Okay. So we’re taking 15 minutes. And we’ll come back at just after noon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next up for cross- examination is the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, what I'd suggest is go ahead, assuming you're efficient and effective in your 25 minutes, I'll consider giving the 5. If you're not, I won't. How's that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could speak a little slower? To me it’s a bit, like, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Government of Canada. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not sure I want to waste three minutes, but maybe... Well, I'll...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I'll be magnanimous today. We'll have an hour and three minutes for lunch, and come back at two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m just a Commissioner here, so there’s no need to stand. I know it’s bad habits, but we’ve got a different procedure. Okay. Are we ready to continue? I guess we’re now on the City of Ottawa, I think, who didn’t want to use my two minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Those two minutes could have been used. So the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the Ontario Provincial Police. Next I’ll call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund Group.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I’ll call on the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can see you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now I’d like to call on the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Province of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I just have a couple of short questions that -- some of it is just clarification. In response to questions of the Ottawa Police Service, you talked about the intelligence teams being more concerned about certain kinds of threats than other kinds of threats. I just want to make sure I've got that correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that -- your observation was with the reviewing the Hendon report, you saw that it was broader and covered areas of -- and I don't know if I got my note right, more public order problems? Is that what you were saying?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then another question I had, and this was in answer, I think, to the JCCF, and you were talking about -- you were asked about whether a common law powers was in -- in respect to the common law powers being less well defined, and even if you -- a court found after the fact that you exceeded your powers, you still would have dealt with the occupation. Do you remember that answer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I guess what's your concern about having exceeded your powers? Is that a concern to you if the courts after the fact find you've exceeded your powers? What does that mean to you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I take it you wouldn't have been happy if you had -- a court found you had exceeded your powers?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
One of the things again at the beginning of your testimony, and this goes back to your position you held or the function you held before you were the Incident Commander. The -- you talked about processing or cataloguing the plans.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you -- and I think you answered this, but did you ever find a plan or an element of a plan that would encompass the possibility of protestors overstaying the weekend?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we heard testimony earlier from another witness about whether was an opportunity after the weekend to, I believe it was, reduce the footprint that was missed. Do you have any knowledge or comment about that or do you agree or disagree?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it was a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it referred to ability to reduce the footprint if they had acted then. You don’t have any knowledge of that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. Very helpful. So that completes your evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re free to go. Thank you. So we’re now ready to proceed with the next witness, and I think probably we should get started and have the break later on. And who’s going to be leading this witness from Commission counsel? Five minutes to get the witness settled? Okay. Five minutes. We’ll rise and come back in five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time to take ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ll take a 15-minute break, give you a chance to stand up and move around. And we’ll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You’re okay to continue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. First up is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers. Okay. We’ll move to counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are the convoy organisers organised yet? Okay. Mr. Champ on behalf of the Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’ll have to be very quick because your time is up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the OPP. Okay, and JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
In the circumstances, I don't see a problem unless any counsel points anything out. So seeing none, sure, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had said you wanted to go to page 60, but I don’t ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that ends your testimony, you'll be pleased to hear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much for coming and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for your evidence, and for staying so late. I know it's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I imagine you are. Okay. So we're going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. This is the first day of our third week, so it's only five more weeks to go. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excellent. So we're going to swear you in and then get started.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you need a break, you'll let us know, but we normally have a morning break of 15 minutes, and lunch break of an hour, and a break in the afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Commissioner, if I can just remind you, you may not know, this is being translated as you speak and sign interpretation as you speak, so if you could scroll down just a bit, that would be appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a reminder, you’re speeding up again.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you’re enthusiastic, and we all love to testify, but ’t's -- if you can just try and keep in mind.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, that’s fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Certainly. We can take a 15-minute break and come back in 15 minutes to continue the examination. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I'm not a judge today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, no. Is there the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're good. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So this is time for our lunchbreak, so we'll take an hour and come back in an hour to continue. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, are you prepared to go on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So I’d like to call on the Government of Canada to go first, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, well I think you should give them to the interpreters. But I will call on Mr. -- counsel for Mr. -- former Police Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, as you know, so ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I think next - - well, we can take the morning break now or a bit later. I think there's a sense we should take it now. So we'll take a 15-minute break and continue on our return.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just before we continue, I just want to, for the record, I should have noted it when the matter came up in questioning from Mr. Curry, he made reference to the witness statement of Supt. Earley. And for the record, that statement will not be marked as an exhibit until Supt. Earley comes to testify. So just so the media and public don’t look for it on the website, but practice is if we’re calling the witness, it normally will not be made public until the witness adopts it. So with that precision, I think I’m now calling on the Ottawa Police Service. Okay. So there’s been a trade. Fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh. And are there future considerations? Okay. So just so I’m clear, are you -- you’re giving up your time to the city?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, you're out of time. So if you could try and wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the convoy organisers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slowly when you’re reading, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, so if you can wrap up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We're on a bad run for overstaying. Windsor Police Service is next.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could next call on the City of Windsor.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, perhaps we could put it up. You could ask the question, but this probably should have come earlier in your examination because you're already over time. So if you could put it up and see what the question is and then I'll -- and see what the witness can say and I'll rule on it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're now well over time. So you're going to have to wrap up and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Make them. That document can be entered as an exhibit, so that it's available to the public.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I'd like to call on the ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, you were. If you want to go ahead now, that's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. On that question about the Solicitor General, we’re going to move on to the next, which is the -- now it is the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you start by introducing ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- yourself, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re not out of time as of yet, but you’re working on it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the JCCF. And who's on for the -- oh, there are. Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the National Police Federation.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I would call on the Province of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, call on the Province of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, I'd like to call on the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I -- it leaves me with the possibility to ask a few questions. Given the hour, I'm going to try and be relatively limited and just a few bits of information. You, towards the end of your testimony, you were asked about the Hendon reports and if there is anything similar in the federal -- from the Federal Police Service. And I think you said not to your knowledge?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, given the progress since then, and rail blockades are not something limited to Ontario, and the issues that are being dealt with in Hendon from my reading are not limited to Ontario, is this something that should be taken up by the federal authorities to provide a national Hendon report?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And this is a -- I kind of just -- I have a note that I'd like you to complete for me. You talked about, and I may have the note wrong, that you thought the protests at the two different ends of the province, being Windsor and Ottawa, were -- I have a note something that they're coordinated or planned. Did you say that, and as -- could you explain, unpack that for me?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And -- so that's your belief, but I think you said you don't have any concrete evidence of that in terms of any documentation or something to support that other than you as a police officer who has been involved?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And another clarification, and I may have missed it. You'll recall the February 5th exchange you had with Commissioner Lucki where there was mention of the Emergencies Act, and you were asked whether you had any other, and I know you had testified you weren't aware when they declared the Emergency Act, but between the 5th of February and the declaration, did you have any other exchange where the Emergencies Act was raised with Commissioner Lucki or anyone else?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then again, you talked about a Incident Command Structure, the need for a consistent Incident Command Structure across Canada, and I don't know if -- I didn't make a note as to whether one exists or does not exist. And if you could help me with that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, that's helpful, thank you. There's one last area I want to, and again, I'm just trying to get a little more information. And this deals with the discussions you had with counsel for the OPP, and it's the - - your enquiries about tools. And I'm trying to understand, did you say you had some input about what would go into the EMPCA Declaration of Emergency?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, did you have any input into the Ontario Declaration of Emergency on what went into it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So not the declaration but the legislation that implemented it if you implemented the tools?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And in that discussion, did you ask for authority with respect to towing of vehicles?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And is that because you understood the Act would not -- could not empower the Province to do that or that it was a decision not to include it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you're -- I guess I'm simply asking, was that one of your requests and then it went into the black box and you don't know what happened after?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess, to be clear, I mean, was your input this would be helpful?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, we also had some evidence you gave about exclusion zones and common-law power about exclusions, and in fact there were powers given, certainly, about the Ambassador Bridge and Interprovincial Bridges under EMPCA, as I understand it; that’s correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there discussions or do you have an understanding as to whether the exclusions around Wellington were discussed in your input that you had?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was your understanding from the EMCPA and the legislation that followed that you could create and exclusion zone around Wellington under that emergency legislation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that’s on the basis critical infrastructure?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So, just to be clear, your understanding is Wellington was declared to be critical infrastructure like the bridges and so on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So blocking any roadway would be critical infrastructure, then, under the Act?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it would be -- it would -- I guess you’re explaining that that declaration prevented blocking any roadway in Ontario. Essentially, you had the powers under the Act to clear that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony. Obviously, we’ve gone over. It shows how your testimony was important to the parties and with our thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re free to go. NA
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re going to adjourn until tomorrow. I just wanted to make one additional point. As I understand, we’re starting with Former Chief Sloly tomorrow and his evidence will be in-chief tomorrow. It’s scheduled to take the day. In the unusual circumstances where he will go over to the next day, I’ve been asked whether there is any difficulty with his counsel speaking to him over the weekend before he enters cross-examination and I just wanted to see if there were any issues being raised by counsel. It seems to me reasonable under the circumstance but if there’s any objection, I’d like to hear it. If not, then I will be giving that leave given the circumstances. Seeing no objection, we will rise and will reconvene tomorrow at 9:30.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I gather we have a new witness? Okay, I think we're ready to go ahead, then. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could just interrupt briefly? This is being translated and there’s sign language and you’re a little bit fast on the output. If you could try and -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s quite understandable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You want us to take a break and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you would like, sure, we can take the morning break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, it's okay. There's no need to stand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A reference to what?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well it’s further up. There’s a reference to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Chief, I saw.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the lunchbreak for an hour, and come back to continue the evidence. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So with that parenthesis, go ahead. Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
“Briefing”?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take a 15- minute break and then come back to complete the examination by Commission counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well maybe I’ll take another couple of minutes in the circumstances.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are you okay to continue? Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Absolutely. We’re just trying to get to the bottom of things, so no, there’s no -- if there’s a problem -- and in fact, by the -- later in the day something comes to you, please interrupt and put it forward.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're finishing a little early. I'm not sure if we want to start cross-examination, but I promised we wouldn't, so I'm going to adjourn. I just want to raise, if there are any concerns, of course as was mentioned, this has been a very tight schedule, a very -- a lot of documents, a lot of movement, everybody in my view has cooperated very well. But if there's anything that is of concern to the Commission, please don't hesitate to raise it, either with Commission Counsel or directly with me. Because ultimately, I think we know it's been stressful, but I think we're doing a not bad job. Certainly the -- I'm very impressed with everyone's work so far. So thank you, and have a great weekend.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Another exciting week. So I think we're continuing with former Chief Sloly if he's up to it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the first up, I believe is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wait. I’m going to have to interrupt. I think you should be very careful; you have on a couple of occasions done it. It happens, but please be cautious.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry. He was just -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- finishing his answer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think a lot of this is re-examination, if need be. There is conflicting material. And I think given the short timeline that we're -- we have, there is a certain amount of liberty. But if you could as much as possible put everything in context without necessarily citing everything.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just try to not talk over him, and if you could try and tighten your questions a bit.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think let’s see where it goes first and give him some time, if he needs it, but at the moment, I’m -- I don’t see a problem. This is a document that would have been available, certainly, to him when he was Chief, but that can certainly be asked. And if he’s not familiar, he can take the time to review it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just sort out ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please let me control the proceeding.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if you're going to reference a comment in the record you should either ask him to confirm it. If he doesn't want to confirm it or deny it until he sees it, then you have to take it to him, but you can't -- it's not useful to just say there is this in the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He's not -- excuse me. He's not asking you about the statement, he's just asking you if you recall and whether you agree or disagree.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, he’s asking what meeting this is that the notes of.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is 14479.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We can move on the Convoy Organizers, if you’d like to start and do sort of 15 minutes or a half hour? I think that probably is best. But if it is a problem, then we can take the morning break now. I was afraid of that. Okay. I shouldn’t have given you the option. My problem. Okay. Well we’re going to take the morning break for 15 minutes and we’ll come back with the Convoy Organizers then.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just speak up a bit, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that's why it's good to have these things done in advance and not last minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you'll appreciate I gave you no option.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had to come.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a good sense. So if this was a good time, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we’ll take the lunchbreak and come back in an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I believe it’s the Canadian Constitutional Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that’s unusual. Is there any objection? So maybe we can see. Again, that will not be entered as an exhibit in the normal course. It’ll just be referred to and wouldn’t go in as an exhibit until -- if and until Minister Blair comes to testify. So go ahead, and we’ll see if there’s any problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We've had excellent service with our document people.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next if I can call on the CCLA?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ms. Zwibel, just to remind you, you're over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As long as they're quick and sharp.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the National Police Federation, but before we turn to them, this might be a good time for the morning break. I don't mean to -- or, I'm sorry, the afternoon. I'm just having -- it's so exciting that I want to hear more. Thank you for the correction. I will take the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, where -- are you ready?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next it’s the Democracy Fund and JCCF. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The next is counsel for Mr. Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you are?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The voice would've given an indication which counsel, but I think there are three, so it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- doesn't say everything.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure we're going to -- that we -- we're going to be giving evidence lawyer to lawyer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want, if you want the counsel to ask the witness a further question you might put it that way, but I'm not going to ask for evidence from counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, the question stands. What it means is something that -- the witness can be asked what he understands from the question, but I -- it's not up to you to cross-examine or question the questioner. If you want a further opportunity to ask questions to the witness that's fine. The questions and answers -- maybe I've misunderstood, but there was a question and it was answered. Is that -- am I wrong about that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you were, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What are you seeking?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, if everybody's content I'm content. So you've completed?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I don't have much. I only have one area I want to just touch base with you on, and that’s following up a question you answered from Ms. Rodriguez towards the end. And it was something like, "they", I think referring to the OPP and RCMP, the Commissioners, might not like our plan, but there is a plan. Is that -- do you remember that answer, that question?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then I'm trying to understand a bit -- big picture what that plan involved, and I saw as we went through the documents, there was reference to -- and I think this comes from meetings with the levels of government but also from other documents -- that there was, for example, bite-size plans to, for example, deal with the Rideau Centre or the Rideau and Sussex problem. And we heard about that operational plan. I guess what I'm asking was, big picture, was the plan as you saw it at that time, that you would take bites out of the whole demonstration, starting with Rideau and then moving to other areas -- I think I saw reference to that -- and you would take chunks out of it? That was big picture, the plan you conceived of at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because you did talk about this 24-hour to 72-hour, and I'm just trying to understand, was that, in essence, the plan you were referring to when you said, "We do have a plan", or is it another plan that is the one, as you say, the big plan to take down everything, or were they separate plans? I'm trying to understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because I'm just -- I'm still having some trouble understanding. If you have the take and hold, basically, and I think that was explained to the -- one of the documents to the tripartite group, I think, saying, "Well, that allows us to move," and it included, I think, moving to Wellington. So I'm trying to understand, you need a big plan if you've got the bites that work. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that may answer the question I was going to ask you. So your bite-size plan process, you weren’t asking or you weren’t complaining about the lack of additional resources by OPP and RCMP to fuel that sub- plan, you were focused on the big plan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. That’s helpful. So we'll adjourn for the -- oh, sorry? Oh, yes. There's one further announcement to make. I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. With that further explanation of our witness not attending, we're going to adjourn for the day, and tomorrow, I think we're going to start with some of the witnesses that were involved in the protests themselves, I believe, or organizing the protests. So adjourned til tomorrow morning at 9:30. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just a couple of comments before we get started. This -- the rest of this week, the witnesses being called are in a little different situation in the sense that most, if not all, do not have a witness statement that's been filed, and in some cases, Commission Counsel may not even have interviewed them or interviewed them to any extent. So the estimates of time are, therefore, a little less certain than they normally are. So I just want to raise, if people -- some of the parties have put time in, if you like, as a stakeholder in case something came up, you might want to advise Commission Counsel at the end of the evidence that you're -- you -- there is no need. And those who see something come up that makes it such that they feel they need more time, can maybe be given more time. So I'm going to be a little more flexible than normal in the circumstances because we don't really know what's going to come out and to what degree it will affect one or other party more than what was expected. So I'm just setting that out. The times are challenging this week. They will be big weeks, big days, rather, so I will still be somewhat strict about timelines, but flexible if there is movement available, given that some people, I suspect, and I don't mean to suggest anything nefarious, but people may have taken positions on timing they won't need. So that's just as a preliminary, and that would apply, I think, for the witnesses for the balance of the week. So with that brief introduction, have we got a witness planned?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (APPLAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if I could ask, and I realise there's a fair amount of interest by some parties, and maybe some emotional investment in some of the testimony, but I would ask that we keep it the way it normally is in a courtroom and in a -- an inquiry so that we can keep it going also. We don't have much time. So with that, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we can deem that the witness has objected to answers each and every question, and that -- on the grounds of the answers may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish liability in a civil proceeding. So I think that's taken as a given, and has been filed in the record.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've heard worse. I've heard worse. Don't worry.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have the cross-examinations to go ahead. The Government of Canada I think is up first.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to note, you're out of time, but do you know if you'll be much longer?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you'll want to make it ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure this is hugely helpful in the sense that he can't comment on any of these, but maybe you can just file it for the moment and try it on someone else when you have some time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that takes us, I think, to the morning break. So we'll take a little time. And so we'll take 15 minutes and continue on the return.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next -- I understand it’s the City of Ottawa wants to go next.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then, let’s start with the City of Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Sloly’s counsel? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Residents.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’ll call on the CCLA.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, JCCF and Democracy Fund.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just hold on a minute? Yes?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just -- let's be careful again. You've got to...
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I just have a couple of questions. They're probably just general in the sense of what would be the cost of the fuel to have driven here from Saskatchewan?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just one thing I wanted to follow up up on was the -- you were -- one of your main functions or certainly what you were doing was to try and keep the emergency lanes open.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you said there were some that you just couldn't keep open, and I think you mentioned Rideau. Is that ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So those are two areas where the lanes just couldn't be kept open?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there other areas that you found either you couldn't keep open or were regularly problematic?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And would that be because they were not, among other things, they weren't part of your group? Is that -- or is it were they part of your group, some of them?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And that's -- those are my questions. So thank you very much for coming. And ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we'll -- we will adjourn for the lunchbreak. We'll take an hour for lunch and come back with another witness.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, bon après-midi, good afternoon.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. (COURTE PAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…vers le micro, c’est pour les fins du dossier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Je comprends et je considère que le témoin s’oppose à répondre à chaque question pour le motif que ses réponses pourraient tendre à l’incriminer ou tendre à établir sa responsabilité dans une procédure civile ou criminelle, quelle qu’elle soit. Et si, sans la présente loi, ou toute loi provinciale, le témoin eut été dispensé de répondre à cette question, alors bien que le témoin soit, en vertu de la présente loi ou d’une loi provinciale, forcé à répondre - puis j’entends, je comprends qu’il est sous sommation - sa réponse ne peut être invoquée et n’est pas admissible en preuve contre lui dans une instruction ou procédure pénale exercée contre lui par la suite, sauf dans le cas de poursuite pour parjure en rendant ce témoignage, ou pour témoignage contradictoire. Alors, on tient pour acquis qu’il s’est objecté pour chacune des questions.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ça suffit, alors merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous pouvez lire un peu…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ils sont en train de tout traduire, alors, il faut modérer, s’il vous plaît.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
En attendant, j’ai manqué le nom du stationnement où vous étiez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Zibi.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et ça, c’est où le stationnement Zibi? C’est…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non, s’il vous plait.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m going to have to empty the room if there is -- no ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- outbursts like that. S'il vous plait, le respect oui, vous avez de l’émotion, je comprends, there’s a lot of support, but please respect that this is in the nature of a hearing and outbursts like that may require that I empty the hall, which I don’t want to do, because it’s a public inquiry and it’s important that people be here to witness it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez… ben non, exprimez-vous librement, c'est pas le problème. Le problème, c'est la discipline interne, ça, c'est ma job.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est l’objectif.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci! Alors, premièrement, j’aimerais demander au gouvernement du Canada d’aller en premier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, il faut le dire. Sinon, c'est pas transcrit.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-vous être beaucoup plus longtemps? Parce que votre temps est déjà écoulé.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je pense que le point, c’est que Rideau et Sussex, il aurait répondu – si ce n’est pas une fois, je dirais 15 fois. Alors, je ne pense pas que c’est un bon usage de votre temps, du temps que je vous donne additionnel de répéter les questions dans l’espoir que la réponse va être différente.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Il faut répondre.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Les organisateurs du convoi?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you going ahead in French?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OK.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et le Service de police d’Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’d like what?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Traduction?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On y va.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
J’espère que c’est intéressant!
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, la Police provinciale de l’Ontario.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous n’avez pas… on ne vous entend pas, y’a des problèmes d’audio.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je ne le sais pas. On ne l’entend pas. C’est pas… c’est in français ni anglais, c’est sourdine ou quelque chose. Can you at least hear us? Is that -- Okay, I’m not sure what ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
S’il vous plait, please. This is not a theatre, c’est pas un théâtre. S’il vous plait, j’ai été très patient et, sincèrement là, si je suis obligé, je vais vider puis vous le regarderez dans la salle de vidéo, puis je sais que c’est pas ce que les gens veulent, mais j’exige qu’il y ait une discipline dans la salle. So, please, I’m asking you to cooperate. If it happens, I’m going to have to ask everyone to leave and you will still watch it for the room by video, and I know that’s not what’s wanted but that’s what I’m going to do. This is a serious matter, it's the equivalent of a court, and I think everyone wants a certain amount of respect for the process. Alors, le prochain, c’est l’avocat pour monsieur Sloly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, prochain ce sont les résidents d’Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Prochain c’est le CCLA.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bon, le prochain c’est Democracy Fund (l'audio coupe).
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Alors Monsieur St- Pierre.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. D’autres questions par…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Si je peux juste demander une couple de questions, Monsieur Charland. Juste pour partir où on a fini votre compte qui a été… il y a eu des restrictions, ce qui a réduit votre limite…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis personne vous a parlé de ça, c’est juste arrivé, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et vous aviez mentionné — puis peut-être j’ai mal compris puis c’est pour ça que je vous le demande — quelque chose… quand on vous parlait de violence, vous avez parlé des policiers qui ont… la violence, et vous avez mentionné un autre groupe, c’était-tu Antifa ou…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est quoi, ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, il y a… est-ce que vous avez, vous, vu des membres d’Antifa ou des activités d’Antifa de vos propres…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non. Alors, c’était des rapports que vous avez eus…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…de violence…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…qui se passait.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de comprendre aussi, vous, je pense vous aviez un Winnebago, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis où était-il stationné?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous faisiez la navette à Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
À pied?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et puis, alors, quel était votre… si je peux… je ne veux pas vous donner des titres là, mais quel était votre rôle quand vous étiez à Ottawa quand vous faisiez la traversée?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous étiez là pour représenter le mouvement, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis pour vous, je pense, votre groupe, si je peux l’appeler… parce qu’il semblerait qu'il y ait un… je veux pas rentrer sur Rideau-Sussex là, rassurez- vous, le…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Le groupe que vous aviez monté Rideau, mais… est-ce qu’il y a un… quelque identification de jusqu’où vous vous êtes rendu sur Rideau?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, non, je revenais à quand vous avez fait la traversée du pont.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Macdonald-Cartier, vous avez dit qu’ils vous ont dirigé, je pense, sur la rue Rideau.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez été aussi loin que possible.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de voir quel site ou comment est-ce qu’on peut identifier jusqu’à quel point le groupe auquel tu étais associé s’est rendu.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis vous, lors de cette arrivée-là, étiez-vous à la tête, étiez-vous dans un véhicule ou est-ce que c’est du ouï-dire quand on vous dit qu’est-ce qui est arrivé? Parce que vous, votre Winnebago était encore…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Ensuite… puis je veux juste confirmer, les interactions que vous auriez eues avec des policiers, je ne parle pas de ceux sur le pont puis je ne parle pas de ceux à Gatineau, mais soit des interactions ou des observations que vous avez faites de la police quand vous étiez à Ottawa à faire vos… votre… je le sais pas quoi, ambassadeur…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…représentant, PR, quelle interaction avez-vous eue avec la police?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Parfait. Alors, ça, c’était les questions que j’avais. Je vous remercie de votre témoignage et d’être venu, et puis vous être libre de partir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors là, je pense que je vais prendre la pause d’après-midi et on va prendre 15 minutes et ensuite on va revenir avec notre prochain témoin. So we’ll take our afternoon break for 15 minutes, and come back with the next witness.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Your mic’s not on.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Scharf? It’s your choice. You can do it from there or come up to the front. As long as you can be heard and recorded.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that’s a good list. We haven’t had a list like that in any case. So let me try and address them. Firstly, you may not know but I’m not in the Liberal camp. I’ve been a judge for 20 years, so that’s just a fact.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I was appointed by the government, as you know.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not here to be cross- examined. I’m sorry; that’s not how it works.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- but I’m just giving you a fact. But, having said that, you of course can object to the Commission, how it was set up. That’s something I can’t do anything about. That’s something you would deal with in the Federal Court, and you’re certainly free to do that. In fact, I believe there are other parties who are in the Federal Court attacking the Emergencies Act, and I believe there’s also someone in Court today attacking one of my -- one of the subpoenas. So that’s something, if you think I’m not properly constituted, obviously that’s something you can pursue with it. There’s nothing I can do about that. In terms of your four questions. The objective here is to get the testimony that the public wants as to how this all developed. I think your client is -- we’ve heard, was very involved in it, and the Commission would like to hear her evidence. Obviously, how that’s going to happen, I said earlier today -- you weren’t here -- that because of the nature of these questions and the nature of what witnesses like Ms. Belton have, I will be flexible about time because ultimately what we’re after is getting a proper representation from the people as to what happened, why it happened. So I can’t say more than that except that that’s what our objective is, and we will be flexible for time. In terms of help, of course if she needs help, that’s something which, quite frankly, we’re more than sympathetic about. We want the help needed, if she needs it to get the documents out and to get the story out. That’s what this whole Commission is about, is about trying to get the information out. In terms of you questioning her, of course you can question her. It’s not -- it’s provided in the Rules. It will just come at the end, and how long, you’ll help guide us as to what’s needed. Our expectation is and Commission Counsel, if you have been following the Commission, has been very good to let the witnesses tell their story. Because we’re not here to try and push one line or the other. I think if you were here for the earlier witnesses today, they’re here to tell the story; Commission counsel will help bring it out. But of course you’re entitled to, as Ms. Belton’s counsel, to make sure if we’ve missed something, to allow her to do it. In terms of questioning other witnesses, all I could suggest is at the end of the day, you speak to Commission Counsel as to issues that you think Commission should pursue because, again, same objective; whether it’s this witness or any other witness, we want the story to come out. So that’s my best answer for your questions, your objections. As I say, I can do little about them. Federal Court might be happy to deal with it, might not. I leave that to you. So that’s my response. I’d like to be able to get on with Ms. Belton’s evidence, if I can. But I just want to hear if that’s -- if that’s agreeable.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, as I say, I will be flexible for that, and if you want more time, I’ll give you more time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So can we proceed?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, and I think he was deferring to me whether you could question, and as I've said, that’s not the way we operate. But if you speak to either Mr. Mather or to Mr. Leon, they can make sure the concerns, to the degree they're relevant as evidence, can be brought out, because obviously, we want to make sure the issues that are important to the Commission and to the public are ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I understand that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry. That’s not the way it works. It is not the process, but I'm trying to accommodate you. That’s the best I can do.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think what -- I think it's for documents ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- as I understand the issue? So when it comes to a question of documents, we'll sort it out, either have her come up or have whatever.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We'll sort it out.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I appreciate that, and believe me, the numbers -- the system has been very good, but it's not simple. I need help. But we will help for that, and you can refer to the document, and when you refer, we'll find it. We may take a minute, may take five minutes, but we're all here for the same objective, I hope. Is that okay?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So perhaps we can have the witness sworn and get started.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Well, I think it's just, we're trying to get the story out. I -- there's -- you can't really object to her telling ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, we will try not to waste time, and if we work together on that, I'm sure we'll get to the end.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is there a problem with the questioning, Ms. Belton, or are you okay with the way it's going? Is there a problem?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if you could take a note, that’s the sort of thing you're welcome to do. Maybe that question can be dealt with. But if you can make notes, those are the sorts of things that would be helpful to the Commission when you get to do your questioning. We can fill in those blanks.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're going to take a break, and I'm going to consider whether we're going to clear the hall. So I'm going to take a short break and when I come back I'll decide if we're going to clear the hall. Five minutes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, thank you for that indulgence. I've decided, hesitant, but I've decided not to clear the room at this point. I did notice there's a significant group that is I think doing its best to comply. I'm -- but I am concerned. I mean, this is -- I firmly believe this is an important process and that it should be, as much as possible, respected, so we'll go ahead. I hope not to have more issues. So we were about to turn to some of the questioning. Are you okay to continue?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So the first is the Government of Canada, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We've had to deal with a lot of documents, you can imagine, Miss.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not sure we should be talking about character assassinations; rather, there are some issues (audio skip) raised. I think let's try and not inflame things and take one step at a time. So you'd like to defer at the moment, and maybe I can hear from ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that should not be a problem. So let's go through the rest of the roster and then we can get to that. Okay. So next, the Ottawa Residents.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, now, there is ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is a process. You speak through me. Ms. Scharf, I understand your point, but this is cross-examination so I tend to give a little latitude. So if that -- I think that question is within that latitude.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a reminder, you’re out of time so if you could try and ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I had a note “10 minutes”, so.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a few more minutes but please keep it to the point.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, and I think it's turning into a debate, which I don't think is constructive.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next, call on the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police. You're still on mute.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're still on mute.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCLA, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, so you're going to have to wrap up, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next it's Ms. Belton's representative, so do you have any questions or has everything been covered?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. We’re just ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- through me, sorry. So sir, with respect --- direction that this witness is limited with respects to relevance and materiality I think if you gave a direction that this witness is limited with respect to giving evidence regarding the timeframe up to and including, say, after the EA was no longer invoked, I believe that would be appropriate, sir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, because I think as is probably obvious, we’re dealing with the declaration of the Emergency Act and so on.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There may be things after. Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Again, it’s turning into a discussion. If it relates to events that occurred before the invocation, that can be relevant. I don’t know if it is but ultimately we’re concerned about the declaration of the emergency and the organization of the convoy, and its function or what happened in Ottawa. And if it’s related to that then tell us what it is and we can then think about whether we go to the documents. But I don’t know what we’re talking about.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe you could just -- it may be helpful if you sort of summarize what it is that you’re trying to give as in terms of the story ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and we can leave the documents. They’re in the record and, if need be, we’ll turn them up. But ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s Keith Wilson’s witness statement; is that ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- what you’re referring to?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So is that what you want to refer to because that -- or is there a need for that?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, let’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, if you could turn up the witness statement and let’s see where we go with this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So which page are you looking at?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Second paragraph, page two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so -- and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, the witness -- it’s -- it should come from the witness, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what is -- what are you trying to -- why are you referring to this comment, then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So anything further you’d ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What page are you referring to?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I’m speaking to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe somebody can help her to find that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As I understand, it’s a notice ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. Okay, come on up. Let’s just get it done. We’re her to move it along and all the help we can get.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to speak into ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Is there anything further you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that was the last question. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that's relevant to what we're doing here, but I'll let it go, but, please, we've heard your message, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have just one little -- trying to understand my notes, so it shouldn't be long. You talked about ADT Canada asking you or contacting you about Windsor, and I just I -- my note isn't clear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what did they ask you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I thought there was something -- and I have a note about slow roll.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So this call was from ADT Canada someone, and it had to do with the Ambassador Bridge, was it, or was it the Bluewater?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was Ambassador? And you said slow roll, so would this have been before the Ottawa -- the 28th? Or just trying to get the date of the call.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You said slow roll.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I'm just trying to understand also about your pickup truck in Ottawa. You said you turned around when you got here and went -- and because you had a pickup truck you could turn around and go to Arnprior I think it was?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have to be fair.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So then you picked up that convoy, went into Ottawa and you described that and so on. Did you then stay there? That's what I'm trying to get at.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just to close up on this, and when you would come back, where would your pickup truck go? Would it become part of a convoy again either on ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's what I was trying to understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not -- I'm just trying to get the information. I'm -- okay, so that ends I think for the day, and it's a long day today and the good news is it'll be a long day tomorrow. So 9:30 please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I apologize for the slight delay. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I can just interrupt, you have a tendency to speak rapidly. So if you could try and moderate it, that would be helpful. That’s for the interpreters, obviously.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. That video was what date? That’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, sorry. Excuse me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think at this stage, let's hear the evidence and maybe that’s a point that can be made later? But I'm sorry. You want to also involve yourself in this?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re pretty close to the time for the morning break so I’m going to take a 15 minute break and we’ll come back and start with our list of cross-examinations.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The first up is for the Government of Canada
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think this is proper cross-examination so I’m not -- go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm going to have to get to point quite quickly. You're already over time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And next is the City of Ottawa. Am I to take it your -- you’ve no questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You're well over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Convoy Organizers, any questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that completes the cross-examinations. I just have one question, and it's with respect to something I believe was heard earlier on. Was there an area that was allowed for protests or encouraged by either the police or your group to carry out protests, other than on Wellington Street? I heard something about near the War Museum. Are you aware of anything like that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you're not aware of an area near the War Museum that was -- that protests were allowed and were carried out?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you ever specifically ask the PLTs for an area or a manner to continue the protest?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you didn’t ask and they didn’t offer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your evidence. We're going to take the lunch break and come back in an hour with a new witness. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bon après-midi.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First up is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Hey, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just wait a moment, please. Let's try and keep it quiet, please, while we hear the evidence. This is the equivalent of a court in the sense that we have sworn evidence and we'd like to keep a proper atmosphere. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I did. But we'll get back to you after; okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine. I will concede to counsel's agreement. Okay. Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. CCLA please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is Democracy Fund/JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I just have a few short questions. Just following up on one of those, the penultimate question, you answered all of the protests across the country started organically.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
How do you know that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it's an assumption that you're ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just wondered since you made it as a statement, if you had some information.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, the -- what I wanted to ask a bit more is the 322 trucks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It wasn’t clear to me what those 322 trucks were. And by that, I mean, were those part of the convoy group you were involved with or is that total trucks?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's the "we". I'm trying to figure out ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Again, it wasn’t clear. What I'm trying to understand is, 322, is that a total truck count for the City of Ottawa, all the streets or is it those are the trucks that you had a relationship with either because they were the Western Convoy or one of your organizer’s convoys?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wouldn’t be the trucks that your group controlled?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was a -- it would include the Rideau Street ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- trucks, all of the trucks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the second thing -- I wanted to talk to just briefly about logistics and understand a bit better. Were you told when new convoys were coming in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But was that your responsibility, to deal with new convoys coming in, leaving aside how much you knew about what was coming in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that continued -- or how long did that continue where trucks were coming in and you would direct them to where to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And finally, with respect to those convoys coming in, how -- which convoys would end being involved with and which would you not be involved with, or was that sort of a hazard?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I guess I’m trying to understand, were you somewhere have an official -- how would convoys know that you will direct the convoy rather than the police, for example?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wasn’t necessarily you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- who would guide them in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And would the -- when you did -- or your delegates do that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- would it be with the police or -- as opposed to despite or contrary to police instructions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re going to take the morning break -- or the afternoon break. I made the same mistake as yesterday. So we’ll take the afternoon break, 15 minutes, and then we’ll come back with our final witness for today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon, Ms. Calvinho.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, and yes, I understand about the subpoena and the protections. That’s obviously provided. And we do appreciate that it is sometimes challenging to deal with the documentation. I think you would have a lot of sympathy from the parties and the Commission counsel so I understand that. And we’ve been very accommodating, as required, and certainly, if there’s something, please provide some sort of an indication and we can sort it out.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He has to be sworn.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
First for cross-- examination, the convoy organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that was a question so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You'll get ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm going to stop this. You'll get -- hey, hey. Please, could you ask -- have him -- I'm going to take a break while you're removed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Unfortunate event, but if we can now get back and complete the -- today's proceedings. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Democracy Fund or Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. And now I apologize, I've forgotten your name, counsel for Mr. King. Any questions? Anything that concerns you about the documentation or you want to put to your client?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Sorry, I forgot your name, so I apologize for that. Okay. Any re-examination? No? Okay. Well, that completes your evidence, Mr. King, and you are free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that that should have been done when -- I think at the end of the examination. Now I’m not sure at this point if there’s something in particular you want to say, of course, go ahead, because it’s -- despite what some may say, we’re just trying to get at the bottom of all of this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if it’s any consolation, there’s been evidence about the various Convoy participants on all these issues and there are more witnesses coming. We’re just trying to put out a whole picture. I’ll weigh it all at the end and the evidence will be there and I’m going to make some findings and prepare a report
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But there are others coming. So with that, I will adjourn for the day. We have a big day tomorrow. It will be -- I think it will go a little later even than most. I hope we’ll have no difficulties tomorrow because that just slows up the process. But we’ll be back tomorrow at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Well, we’re going to start the day a little differently today. Rather than have one of the convoy or protester witnesses, we’re going to start with a Commission counsel presentation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. So that will have detail on all the movement of funds. Now, are we in a position to move to the next phase?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if understand correctly, you’re seeking to have a transfer from the convoy organizers of five minutes to your final submissions or presentation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I don’t know if that’s been discussed with the convoy organizers or not.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I see convoy organizers’ counsel’s just walking in. So that obviously hasn’t been discussed so we can address it when we get to the point of cross-examination if it hasn’t been sorted out before then. And I can assure you, we won’t be shortchanging the witness. We’ve been quite understanding about the situation for witnesses who are not represented by counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So that’s a similar -- it’s sort ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, the same response.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re -- we will, of course, endeavour to make sure it’s fair to the witness and we obtain the evidence we need.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry. Can you try and either not talk or keep it down, please? And Mr. Dichter?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're translating all of this, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- please slow down. It's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You know, you get excited, and that's okay, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- try and get excited with a slow speech.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What was the date of the tweet we just saw?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you’ll come back to that one document you wouldn’t ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The normal is your lawyer will do it at the end. And that’s when I would do it., I mean, unless there’s any particular reason to do it now, I would suggest we do it at the end which is the normal.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And how long do you propose to be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Five minutes of some leading questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are there any objections or concerns? NA
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I denied the right to -- the application have his counsel lead the evidence. And now he seeks to have five minutes to do that. There may be some additional at the end and so that’s what is being proposed. And they would be leading questions for five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Read the Rule, yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I guess there’s some uncertainty in the Rule. What a surprise. So I think what I’ll do is I will let the questions go, and if there’s a problem we’ll deal with it. But I think it’s preferable to get that evidence out so before the parties do their cross-examination.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you like. So far you haven't been leading, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
-- try avoid being leading and that makes it easier.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think your time is up, Mr. Karahalios, so I'm going to ask you to wrap up this part of your questioning. You asked for five minutes; I've already given you much more.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, sir.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure you're here to give evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we're going to close this off at the moment. I gave you a question; you've done more, so we'll ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- put off. We can deal with further questioning at the end, if need be, okay? So we'll take the morning break and come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now we're ready to get started on the cross-examinations. For the Government of Canada first, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, in the circumstances, I'll give you another five.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’ve been generally reasonable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. I hear your objection, I think this is cross-examination and I’ll give some latitude.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think this is just getting into argument and I think he’s answered the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He asked you about trucks removed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So let’s try and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You answer the question and we’ll get through this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He’s asking the question. The witness will get a chance to answer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just it -- just, I think it was ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- a question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next we have the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- listen to the question. It was a pretty simple question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let's see where it goes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've been -- you're way over time. I thought you were just going to put a document to him, and now you're going into a -- you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, I didn’t hear you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're absolutely correct, and I -- you're not the first person I've skipped in error. So maybe you want to go next?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'd say get started. We're going to be running late today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, and I'm not sure this is getting anywhere.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the next is -- now is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the -- I just -- let me just find out if we're going to have much more then I think I'll take the lunchbreak. Will you have some questions for the witness, Mr. Karahalios?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Democracy Fund/JCCF, will you have questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No? And counsel for Mr. Sloly, will you have any?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Five minutes? And re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So let's try and get it through, then. Counsel for former Chief Sloly, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the only remaining, then, is Mr. Karahalios. I may be pronouncing that wrong but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure how -- where this is going. I’m not sure that’s evidence that is relevant to the case, but maybe you can explain it to me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have a submission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think certainly what he -- I don’t believe your client can waive the privilege. I think that’s fundamental. So I’m not sure, again, what this is relevant to.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what page did you say?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Your time is up. Is there anything that you need to deal with or can we wrap this up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s perfect.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just wait a minute. There’s an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, if you're going to refer to the document I think we have to have it brought up so that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So do you have a reference for the number, or a reference number?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have the date for it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think you've put the question. It’s been answered. The document is there. We’ll have to deal with it. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. So you are now free to go. Thank you for your testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re going to -- no, 55 minutes. We’re going to take a little bit shorter today and come back at 2:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I understand you're under subpoena, Mr. Bauder; correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have deemed that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answer may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or any other person. And if but for the Act, or the Act of any provincial legislature, the witness would therefore have been excused from answering the question, and all of the witnesses by reason of the Act or provincial Act compelled to answer, the answers so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial, or other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than, of course, prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence. So that will be for each question and answer it's taken that you've taken the protection afforded to you under the Charter and the various statues. Okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I know you’re emotional, and that -- and that’s understandable. But if you could try and just keep ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- keep it down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You don’t have to apologize, just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The number was ALB1819.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Lots of zeros.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Bauder, you’re kind of venturing off the questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’ll get a chance at the end to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- make a statement or something. So let ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because we want to try and get through it, because there’s another ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you do, and it’s obvious. But we’re going to try to control this; okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You actually have another 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Actually, it's 13 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, it's a little too long at this point because ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. If we could -- I could call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’d said 6 before, but.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just -- you can just wait for the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I’ll call on the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police, the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re on mute. Or we can’t hear you. So.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, he’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- on Zoom, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He’s Zooming in.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re high tech here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you can try and -- you're eager to answer, I understand, but if you could wait til the question's finished to answer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down for the translator. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could we -- particularly, Counsel, I don’t want to set off things, and I think it's important that at a minimum, Counsel, give the example.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you did nothing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm just having some trouble with the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
With the crowd and counsel, but that’s my problem. Don’t worry. You're giving your evidence. Everything's okay from your perspective.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am not sure how this is relevant with ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What are you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, it's firstly, it was a question within his time period, and he was asked how he felt. I'm not sure what that adds, if that's your point, in terms of the evidence, but in any event, I was going to give him, as he's unrepresented, an opportunity to say something at the end. So I think all this has done is do it in advance. But what exactly is your point you want it, what, struck from the record, or do you want a further opportunity to cross-examine? What is it you're after?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want to do further cross-examination, you stopped at the end. I was prepared -- I didn't cut you off. If you want to come back up, you can go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. That's -- any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Bauder, you're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're -- yes, you are. This is -- you're completed your examination.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you'd like to make a statement, that's fine. You can have it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just he ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe you could just sum it up for us.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I'm not sure this is - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt you for a minute?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, it’s a little too much of a story. I’m not sure how much it helps us. I understand your unity ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But that’s fine. I think your message has been given. And we’ve seen ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We’re going to adjourn for the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand she’s under subpoena. So just confirming that. Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just slow down a bit, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
For the translators.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Take your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe I’ll take a short break at this point, just five minutes to stretch our legs. And we’ll come back in five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you for that indulgence. Now we can run through to the end, I hope, and adjourn before it -- it'll be late, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're at the stage of adjourning for the day, and I think it's welcome for everybody, so we'll come back tomorrow at 9:30. I have a -- you have question, yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think -- I don’t think there actually was any permission given. What was pointed out is the rule does not prevent you from speaking to the witness, as long as you don’t speak about any of the evidence. So -- and that’s my understanding of the rule. So you don’t need my permission, unless you want to speak to her about her evidence, in which case, that’s a different matter.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t think that’s contemplated by the rule. I’m sorry, anyone want to pipe in on this? I’m sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think lawyers have to be aware of the rule. It’s basically the same rule as applies to in courts, and you can’t speak about cross- examination on the evidence. You can prepare, but that’s a different matter. And the line, obviously, we rely on lawyers to respect that, obviously. I’m sure it’s the same in Alberta. Kind of.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re all one country. Okay. So until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I’d suggest we deal with it after the witness has finished, unless there’s an urgency. And I think perhaps just have you advised the parties of the issue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. It might be worthwhile, and I don’t know if you can do it by email or you want to do it orally, but just give a heads-up to the parties so that when we get to it, everybody will be -- have thought it through.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If that’s okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And we can deal with that a bit later, but I’d suggest we complete this and move onto that issue once we complete Ms. Lich. Okay. So unless there’s anything further, we can start the cross-examinations, and I believe the first is the Government of Canada. I can, but go ahead. It is not a problem with me, so go ahead, Mr. Champ.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, excuse me a minute. Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am not sure it's very helpful in the sense that I'm not sure what you're getting at. She can neither confirm nor deny because she has no knowledge.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To say can she -- has she any, I mean, any -- the question's relating to whether she received communications about any of this, it may have some relevance, and she's answered that. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I mean, I -- you can go ahead, but you're ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think it would be helpful to know if she received the email before you question her on it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Democracy Fund, JCCF, Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And now for the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Only if you make the commitment to have a focused questioning so that it’s useful use of the break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take the break early, then. Take 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have one question. You were taken to a chart and told there were charges for violent offences?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know who was charged? Do you know the four people?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, the four people?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don't know if it's someone you know or someone you don't know?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and you're now free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And thank you very much. Okay. So that -- we move onto the next, which is the -- I believe the panel of two witnesses and there's an issue to be discussed about the, as I understand it, the relevance of that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So maybe we'll deal with that now, if that's agreeable?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine, just identify yourselves because it's the same, the reporters have to know who's speaking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You mean they weren’t on the original list?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any other counsel wish to make submissions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m just canvassing first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I take it you’re supporting the proposal -- or the objection?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any other submissions in support? Okay. And then as I understand it, the Convoy organizers are opposing?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And any other party is opposing the application?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other who are opposing or, rather, supporting the motion? Yes, Commission counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you’d like to add something? Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s -- you’re getting into argument now.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re dealing with whether or not there’s relevance to the evidence that’s being tendered.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Commission counsel, you wanted to provide some context? And among other things, I don’t know what the witnesses are going to say, so to what degree is it -- is this one of the witnesses that we saw the video about or is this something different? Maybe -- go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So -- okay. That was a red herring, then. Okay. I was worried that you were -- this was the same person.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Commission counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any further submissions by anyone? I’m being very generous about submission time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But don’t repeat, though.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I always worry when someone says “I’m going to emphasize”.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just give me a moment. Okay. I’m going to allow the panels to go ahead. On Mr. Migicovsky’s first point about whether the information is relevant, I think the -- there is certainly evidence that may be, I haven’t heard it, but may be relevant as to the use of the Emergency Act, and in particular, the notices that are -- have apparently -- there’s lots of evidence, were circulated as recently as this morning. So the use of the notices, the setting up of exclusion zones, is squarely within the mandate. And therefore, I think the information may well be relevant. I also note that there has been evidence of police as to the fact that the protest was ended in an orderly manner and quite properly. I believe Insp. Beaudin talked about that. I believe another witness, maybe Chief Bell talked about the fact it was ended without burning of police cars, et cetera. So the manner of ending is relevant, and this may go to some degree. I think the -- and there was also cross- examination in -- I believe of Insp. Bernier, as to the arrangements that were made and the processing, how the processing was done, the -- so there is evidence about how the operation, if you like, was carried out, including how the detainees were treated and the system arranged. Now, having said that, the impact and relevance diminishes to a point where it’s -- it in fact becomes questionable as we get further along, further from the use of the Emergency Act notice, et cetera, because this Commission is not mandated to deal with arrests that were or were not done in accordance with the appropriate police procedures and so on. That’s a matter for similar criminal courts, if there have been issues in that regard. So I think it moves quite -- well, I would say of marginal relevance, if any, to what the Commission is doing when you talk about the actual manner of arrest, as opposed to what I’ve described that is more squarely in the relevance. So having said that, I’m not prepared to accept that it is -- that these -- this panel is not relevant. I expect the accent will be on what I have set out is clearly relevant and what’s related to that. And obviously there will be some context. Context has been provided by other witnesses sometimes. And while I may hear that, it may not become an issue that I have to deal with. Now, on the second point, the procedural fairness point, I have some concern about that, because obviously it is, as I’ve said many times, and I’m going to repeat it, the public wants to get to the bottom of this, and that means fair to all parties. And I am concerned that there may be unfairness to the -- to some of the parties. In particular, the police forces, whether it be the OPP or the OPS, or in fact, to former Chief Sloly, or anyone else. So fairness is front and center in my concerns, and if after we hear this evidence there’s a need to call further evidence, we’ve said we would sit evenings, and we will sit Saturdays. We will get to -- get the information that the public needs to know and that will lead to a fair treatment for all. That’s -- I guess that’s my ruling. Now, if you want something more formal in writing, I’m happy to do it. But I sense the panel is here waiting, and we want to get -- we all want to make sure we fully use our Friday. I thought I’d give my ruling now. If anybody wants it in writing and expanded upon, I’m happy to do that. But I think that sets out, really, my thinking in a general way. And with respect to whether we will have another panel or another witness, I think that’s something we can deal with after the evidence is heard. With respect to the videos, I’m a bit concerned about the videos. I haven’t seen them. And I would hope we’re not going to get too far afield to what’s relevant to the issues I need to deal with. I don’t mean to minimize any issues about how an arrest was carried out. Those are obviously significant to individuals involved, including the officers, but that’s not central. In fact, is more anecdotal, I think, in terms of what this Commission is dealing with, but it is part of the record so far, some of the evidence relating to that. So that’s my ruling. And we can proceed with the panel, I believe. And I will expect the parties, if there are concerns about the ruling and you wish it in writing, please notify Commission Counsel. Well, it will be in writing because it will be in the transcript, but expanded upon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take five minutes then to set up the panel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think it’s the Ottawa Police Service, is going to go first. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Don’t worry, that’s questioning, cross-examination. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please, if I could ask everyone to not act out, that would be appreciated. We're trying to keep this civilised. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Given the late disclosure, apparently, could you make sure you tell us beforehand what it is we’re going to just so we can -- if there are problems, we can outline them in detail.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure about that question. Let’s be a little careful with how we do that, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s see what the -- if it’s just a photo of the -- of Ms. Hope-Braun kneeling -- is that all it is?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m not sure what the prejudice would be, but let’s go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And can you, for the record, explain why it is these things weren’t disclosed till last night?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry. I wasn’t -- maybe I missed it. Are you saying you didn’t get this video till yesterday?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s have a look at it and see where we go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
All right.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Firstly, this is -- this is a little bit leading, which I don’t think you’re entitled to do. Number two, I’m not sure this is a witness who can talk about police tactics and I think now you’re getting into something that’s a bit unfair. So I mean, you don’t have much time. In fact, you’re -- you have one minute left, so you might want to use it more appropriately.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure this is really very relevant to what I have to decide, how the arrests were actually carried out and whether there were ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- no complaints. Now, if that’s how you want to use your last minute, I’m prepared to have a look at it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Once again, that’s leading for a phase you’re not supposed to be leading your witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want to ask, the way to ask I’m happy to assist. It’s you ask, “How did it, how was it that, what proceeded after you were arrested? Where were you taken?”
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re way over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Almost out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you still have a minute or two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Democracy Fund, JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Before I go to Commission Counsel, Ms. Bath-Shéba van den Berg, normally, the Convoy would be last because you're the ones who -- they're your witnesses, so -- which is why you can't cross-examine, but normally, you'd gone last, so since I took you or you were taken out of order, I'll give you a little more time if you would like to wrap up. Pardon me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A short wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And, Commission Counsel, any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we're going to be able to take the lunch break for an hour, and we'll come back with our next witness. Is it -- come back at 2:10.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you hear us, Mr. MacKenzie?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good. Well, we're ready for your testimony, so we're going to have you sworn, and I see you have Counsel here, so let's -- should we first swear the witness and -- okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate him or tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or any person but for the Acts you've invoked. Okay? Is that adequate?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. MacKenzie, we're ready to go. Commissioner Counsel, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we'll take a five- minute break and then come back. (TECHNICAL ISSUES/AUDIO ISSUES)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry. Your counsel had an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think maybe the question wasn’t that well framed, but the quote speaks for itself. He could ask whether he agrees with the quote, is on the RCMP letterhead. I mean, it’s really not much further than that, I take it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now we’ll go with first the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is it going to be a while? Should this be put off til a little later?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So maybe, if you're agreeable, you can complete your examination, subject to this video, and we can slot you in a little bit in maybe 10 minutes, whenever this is sorted out?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it's now available.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I think it's the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, there's -- if you just hold on a moment, your counsel is standing up here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you have to be more clear. Social media is something we should be looking into, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if you could try and rephrase the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the Democracy Fund, JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That seems to be a popular person. Mr. Foda, I guess it's your turn. You seem to have collected a lot of support.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, we're going to take the afternoon break and then we'll come back with our final witness of the day and of the week.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Simply for the record, I'll refer to the statement that’s in the record and the fact that you are under subpoena from the Commission, and as a result, it will be deemed that you've objected to each answer to seek the protection of the relevant Evidence Act, okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next, we have the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just hold on one ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe you can just ask the question without ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- reference to the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to be wrapping up pretty soon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. For the Democracy Fund, ACCF, and Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You won’t hear many complaints, I think, from the hall on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But of course, you're entitled to your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure you got much from the witness about the Parliamentary ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is going to be lots of witnesses that'll come ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- later. I mean ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you can use your time, but...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Where -- what's the evidence of that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm just trying to understand where the evidence is for that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure I understand the link at all in the way you describe it, but the record is clear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we'll leave it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, it was more of a leading question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was pretty leading.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. You’re free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ve completed the list for today, and we will come back on Monday morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I see we have a different patch this morning. We’re moving geographically, or figuratively, I guess, to the different area of Ontario. Okay. And who is Commission Counsel this morning? (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if you could identify yourself for the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just slow down a bit ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think this is probably a good time for the morning break, so we’ll take 15 minutes and then come back to continue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now if I could call on the Democracy Fund to go first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've been fairly liberal, but you're now well over your time, so you're going to have to - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you have 25 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm going to have to stop you. You're now well over your time. So if you could wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I asked you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- five minutes ago ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Miller, I got the document the first time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well let’s see what the document is, and if there’s a problem, either the witness needs time, or if counsel for Windsor has ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- an objection, we can deal with it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down for ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa. You can get started, if you’d like, and we’ll -- seems to always happen that the City of Ottawa to be at lunch time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think this is an appropriate time to take the lunch break. So we’ll take an hour and come back to continue the questioning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next up I believe is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next are the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
National Police Federation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. City of Windsor?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to go slowly when you're reading for the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, Mayor Dilkens, thank you very much for your testimony. You're free to go and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- very appreciated. Okay. Next witness. I think you have a procedural matter to deal with first?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, this might be a good time to take a break, then, if you’re going to change counsel, then. So we’ll take the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. So first up is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is former Chief Sloly's counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, call on the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I haven't got much. I just -- one thing I'm confused about, and that arises from the videos that the -- were shown by Citizens for Freedom, and you saw the arrest of the person who was on the ground. How does that fit in? I thought you testified that there were -- they could continue to protest on the sidewalk, and this person doesn’t seem to have been on the street, and I'm trying to understand exactly -- maybe I don’t know the geography.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just remind me then again -- and I'm lost in that from my mind -- the area of control, that you call it, is -- was from the bridge to Tecumseh Road; is that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And how far is it from Tecumseh to the expressway?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the -- and so the bridge to Tecumseh would be about a kilometre?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So about half of the Huron Church Road would be, if you like, not available on the sidewalks for protestors, but the other half would be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the -- you talked about being at the Emergency Preparedness Committee of the Chiefs of Police and discussion there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there meetings of that group during this period in early February when the protests were going on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, so you weren’t a party to those meetings?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And were there discussions at those meetings about the available resources for POU units across the province?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And were those discussions, did they include what was needed for Ottawa and were there enough POU units to deal with the Ottawa situation in Ontario?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And so were you part of those discussions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. So I think that completes the evidence. Thank you for your attendance and your evidence. And we will adjourn til tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Another beautiful day in Ottawa. Okay. We have a -- let me guess; another witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could I ask you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to go a little slower for the interpreters, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Is this a good time for the morning break and we can come back at -- in 15 minutes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the morning break, come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down a bit for the translators, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. So I'd like to first call on the Government of Canada. Do you have any questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a couple of minutes here. You’re not near your time. I’ll look at you when you’re close to it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Questions by former Chief Sloly's counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Have they even offered?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, you’re -- you and the City of Ottawa are overdrawn, but we’ll see when we get to Ottawa. The Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
City of Ottawa?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Convoy Organizations?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. National Police Federation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that was, obviously, very clear evidence. Nobody seems to want to cross- examine you -- or limited, I should say. Well, thank you very much for attending. You’re free to go, and we thank you for your evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So given the speedy way in which we went through this, I think we’ll take an hour and nine minutes for lunch today. So we’ll come back at 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Leschied?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, Mr. Leschied is under subpoena, and I deemed that -- I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any other person, and if but for the Acts invoked, the witness would -- or this Act, the witness would therefore have to have been excused from answering the questions, then although the witness is by reason of this Act, or the federal and provincial Act compelled to answer, the answers so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial or any other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than a prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence. So is that adequate then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. With that introduction, I think we can proceed with the examination. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. First, the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You certainly can ask. What’s the relevance of his business and the quality of the materials?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So exploring on the business area. Is that okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is going to be pretty well the end. You're now up at the limit of your time, so you're going to have to be brief.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. But that'll have to be it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Forty-nine (49).
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you can ask him about it, but there’s only so much he can say, so let’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, let’s take it one question at a time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Cede to whom?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, okay. Thank you. City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So it’s Mr. Leschied’s counsel. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure where you’re going with this, the Mayor whether he knew about Chris Sky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could be helped to understand how this is going to help the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure that helps the Commission, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are you giving evidence about what the municipal ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I mean, I don’t know that there’s any evidence about this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, and he said -- and he said he was speculating and then ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you said something about the complaint process, which is what I was curious about. There’s -- I don’t believe there’s evidence about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It might help if you establish they’re the same protestors that were doing it, which may well be, but I don’t know.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you can help us on why this video is being played for this witness. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Because I would like to define where the the exclusion zone was, and how the crowd was behaving, how the police were interacting.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you've --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD And actually ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD --- I did receive 2,000 pages of disclosure about 24 hours ago, so this was the one thing that we asked that be submitted. I did provide it to counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you could start by asking him how he knew what the exclusion zone was and go into that, but I'm not sure showing a video is going to assist. What's the date of this video? And we don't know who took it, and it's obviously during a period he wasn't there. So I'm not sure how that can all be done. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Well, I think it's identifiable to this incident, and I believe it provides geographical information that perhaps could contradict previous testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I'm not sure. We don't -- do we know when this video was taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was -- m'hm. Sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And -- so when was it taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was taken on the 13th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you could start by asking him if he was there on the 13th when this video was taken. MS. LANI ROUILLARD He was not, no.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think the video should've been put to someone who could speak to it. MS. LANI ROUILLARD The video -- the thing is that there was double the evidence sent out the other night, so we went through it all, and this was the response to the one -- to the thousand, well, two thousand pages I received. Because it puts the exclusion zone into context and it contradicts previous testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, but you are counsel to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- gentleman, you're not a party. MS. LANI ROUILLARD No.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I'm having some trouble with this. So I'm sorry, you can ask how he knows the exclusive -- the exclusion --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- zone and he can explain what it is, but I'm not going to allow the video to go to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. Tell us about the perimeter. When you did a perimeter walk around, what -- tell me what you saw? The police earlier -- I’m going to clarify this first. The police earlier had stated that they were clearing certain areas, and there were areas that were under their control. And the question I have, and the reason I want this video for it, is because I want to know, is the corner, the southeast corner of Tecumseh and Huron Church Road part of the exclusion area, to your knowledge?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just -- I’m just trying to understand. You say you know the exclusion zone. How do you know that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don’t know, you just listened to the testimony yesterday?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you didn’t really know? You’re just speculating?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
From listening to the testimony here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There were social medias educating you on the exclusion zones?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then just a question, you were there for a few days, evenings rather. Were -- is it news to you, or did you only find out the day that there were plants shutting down and people getting laid off because of the bridge?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that didn’t concern you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So more impact was not a concern to you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. You’re free to go. I think we’ll take the morning break now. Thank you, counsel, for your assistance. So we’ll take the morning break. Or the afternoon break. I keep saying the morning break. I’m sorry. Obviously I only work half days. So we’ll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you slow down for -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the first up is the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the -- are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So Mr. Rejman, any questions to follow up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a question here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Well, that completes the business for today, so we can adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I think tomorrow will be a longer day, so people should come prepared to stay longer than normal. So look forward to seeing you all back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay, so we have a new witness I expect this morning. Who is on for the Commission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, Mayor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So first up is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you identify yourself, for the record. You may have but it didn’t come across.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Mayor Willett, do you want to add anything? We’re done the cross-examinations. I’m just going to ask for -- whether there’s any re-examination by the Commission Counsel. So I’ll let the re-examination go and then I’ll give you a chance to add anything, if you’d like.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that’s it. Do you want to add anything before you head back west?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that's fine. We're here to get at the bottom of what happened, not only in Coutts, but across. Can I just ask you one thing following up on you're all in favour of protests, and you'd mentioned about the land that had been set up to continue protesting and it wasn't used until after the blockade was cleared.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did I hear you correctly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And they continued to protest there for some time you said?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if it was the same group that had blockaded that continued to protest there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming. It's appreciated. Your evidence was appreciated. You're free to go back to the cold.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to take the morning adjournment, the morning break, and come back with a new witness, so we'll take 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don't see a problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Good afternoon; and thank you for adjusting our schedules. That’s very accommodating. I understand a witness is willing to go ahead today out of order. It’s Mr. Freeman, I think. And counsel ready?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe we’ll take the afternoon break now for 15 minutes and come back and continue with the examination of this witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think first up is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the CCLA. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Democracy Fund, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The CLA/CCDL?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination? Okay. Well, I just have a couple of quick questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just in terms of the demerit system, you talked about the problem that the regulation of the trucks and the -- their CVOR is provincial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there no mechanism for transferring demerit points from one province to another if a vehicle from another province, a truck, incurs offences of some sort?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I’m trying to understand what the problem was because of trucks from outside of Ontario. You’d mentioned that was a problem, and I’m not understanding it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It does and it doesn’t. I would expect the consequences are probably fair similar from one province to another if there are an accumulation of offences?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I understand that, but I think I also understood you to say Ontario didn’t have that power, either, without going through charges and et cetera, so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess that’s -- I might not agree in the sense that you have the same oversight. You’re supposed to supervise and charge them and make sure that they’re behaving in the same way an Ontario carrier would.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand that. Now, one of the things I wanted to also understand is the emergency regulation in Ontario. It was -- it provided powers with respect to the licences, the CVOR. Isn’t that correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, is the -- what’s the process there? Is there -- is it a charge to which they will then have to go to Court and they have a right to appeal and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s suspension immediate, which is the difference with the process of ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the emergency order, you said at one point that there was no provision with respect to tow trucks in Ontario’s order.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. So there was nothing in that in the emergency order in Ontario?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if that had -- if your Ministry had requested that that be included?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know if anyone else requested, any other Ministry or police requested?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thanks very much for your testimony, and thank you for accommodating the Commission by switching. That’s much appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So we are complete for today and we will come back tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we hope to -- well, it’ll be a fairly long day tomorrow again, but nothing new there. Adjourned till tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just before we start, I just want to give a bit of a message as to the events of yesterday. As many of you know, we had to interrupt the hearing yesterday because our senior counsel, Gabriel Poliquin, suddenly became indisposed. He was seen by medical professionals and his episode was likely nothing serious. So he’s expected to make a quick recovery after a few days of recuperation and will be back with the Commission next week. He wishes to thank all who have reached out to him with messages of support, and it’s very appreciated by him, and, of course, by the Commission. So with that brief introduction and reassurance, we can go on to the next witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Right up here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Degrand, if I could just ask that you slow down a bit because it's all being translated, so your -- especially when you know what -- the area you tend to talk a little fast, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe it's ALB1868 maybe?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well I think we can take the morning break at this point. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back to proceed with the primary examination and cross- examination. So 15-minute break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First I’d like to call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I don’t think you’re done.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- on my count, but ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I do appreciate your honesty with this.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I have you having another five minutes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just so you know.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Another -- well, let’s see. No, another four minutes; sorry.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the Convoy Organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the JCCF, and yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you’ve gone over your time, just -- so if you could wrap up pretty soon, I think you’re out of time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Absolutely
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next, if we could call on the Ottawa Coalition of the Residents and Businesses.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next on the -- Windsor Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the Government of Saskatchewan.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next, I’ll call on the Government of Alberta.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if you could try and - --
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit for the translators, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just on that, I have a couple of questions.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just on those -- the equipment you acquired, and I may have missed it in my notes. Did you -- had you arranged or secured the operators for all that equipment? I didn’t get that note.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I know it was a concern.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So that was a bit still a work in progress ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but you had ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had started and working it out.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And another question, I’m just going back to the 9.1 request that was made on February 3rd, for -- that’s the request to move additional officers to Alberta; and that was granted, and we saw that letter.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
When was that terminated? Or how does it -- when did it end; do you know?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it was not formally rescinded, but your understanding is they went back about 13th or 14th. Would that be after the operation in Coutts; would that make sense to you?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then you were taken to the request by Ottawa, or to move officers to Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Would it be fair to say that when you were requesting officers from British Columbia, you would hesitate to send officers to Ottawa, or is -- those two separate, totally distinct, or would you weigh that?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I’m asking if before the 14th ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- in other words, you were asked is there any reason you wouldn’t have sent officers ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- earlier and, I’m just asking and it ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I may be wrong, but ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- it seems common sense to me.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then you talked about the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, and I’m trying to understanding a bit. That’s a pretty -- gives it a lot of broad power, as I understand it; is that fair?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it doesn’t have to be invoked; it just ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then -- this may be the last one. I’m just going through my notes, I apologize.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That you mentioned something about -- and I think it was maybe February 13th, but I’m not sure, a request for Reservists to be used, I think, to operate equipment. Did you ever get an answer on that?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And maybe I’ve got it wrong, but I thought in that note there was a suggestion that he would look into it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That was my question; whether after looking into it, anything further came.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Because it was the looking into it that I ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- didn’t know whether ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Okay. Well, those are my questions. Thank you very much for attending, and I understand you’re going back to the cold.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But not much we can do about that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. You’re free to go. So we will have a long lunch today, an hour and three minutes. So we’ll be back at 2 o’clock and continue with yesterday’s witness. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thanks.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you try and slow down a bit again? I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s the interpreters.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt for a moment?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just want to check on the witness. Do you want a break? This is going to be, I'm afraid, long, so the question is, do you want a break? You could have two breaks or we can keep going until you signal.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You've got endurance. That’s good.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, certainly the interpreters do. So I will -- we'll take a 15-minute break and then we can come back.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. First, I’d like to call on the Government of Canada, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
How are you doing for time?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Not more.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it would actually be the 11th.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Late on the 11th.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition of Residents. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think there’s a context here. So don’t mix the timelines, so...
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to wrap up. Your time is up. So ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have 20 minutes, yeah, and you started 20 minutes go.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well I’m not sure the absence of people, but I will give you a couple of minutes. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was, and I’m giving you a little more time. So go ahead. It’s just there are a lot of people, so I’m trying to make it work. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it goes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that he’s answered that, and that’s not a fair representation of what he said. So next I’d like to call on counsel for former Chief Sloly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Convoy Organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure what the relevance is as between the -- whether they're -- he got along or didn’t get along. I'm not ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s probably where it's appropriate, given this witness is not familiar with the ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if -- you can ask him the question whether he knows what either of them were thinking. I'll let that, but go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, if I could call on the CCLA?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next if I could call on the CCF, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
My guess is it must be ONT5127.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you're out of your time, so you can wrap up.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ontario Provincial Police.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Windsor Police Service?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you slow down a bit for the interpreters, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the City of Windsor. Still okay?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you go a little slower again, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to make it quick, because ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you’re out of time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, but -- sure. Make it ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to the point.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Government of Saskatchewan.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the Government of Alberta.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Democracy Fund.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, the CLA/CCDL.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The National Police Federation?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Ontario representative?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I believe I asked ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the National Police Federation ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Unless I fell asleep on that one.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wouldn't be the first time. I've missed people before, but usually they speak up so.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If you have the strength, there's just a couple of questions I'd like to ask you. As you know, I'm -- this Commission is concerned with the Declaration of the Emergency and but also can make recommendations on the Emergency Act and presumably dealing with public order emergencies. And I guess I'm interested in views you may have as to knowing as you do what happened in Ottawa, what happened in Windsor, whether you might have some comments or suggestions, and in particular, on how or whether there should be more coordination on -- in areas where there is clear overlap, such as border crossings, where the impact, if you like, is much broader than Ontario, it's a federal, or Ottawa where, as we know, the impact certainly was greater on the federal government than the Parliamentary Precinct. And leaving aside whether it was properly declared an emergency, which is something I have to deal with, are there things in -- do you view aspects of coordination in particular or other aspects of the Act that might be reviewed?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If I could push you a little bit on the -- an aspect that I'm interested in, which is the coordination, and we've heard about the coordination in Windsor that was very effective, police, and messaging from the City, from all of the parties. And that messaging -- or the coordination in Ottawa does not seem to have been as fluid at the police level. I think we’ve heard evidence about that, nor at the political level. And I think we’ve heard about that. Is there something -- should there be a process or a protocol for such events that involve the different orders of government in such events? A protocol, or a best practices, or something?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you have views on whether any recommendations regarding unified command and, if you like, drawing on expertise, which I think is what was described in Windsor, should be made by this Commission?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just pursuing that a bit, with the Police Services Board, I seem to recall from your testimony, there’s something being looked at in terms of the Police Services Act or a committee. And I’m just wondering, given the cross-examination you had, but also the evidence here of, let’s just say the issues with respect to the information the Police Services Board had, is there -- do you think there’s room for reform on that or in that area?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That was going to be my next question. Are there findings from this Commission in respect to what happened? Because obviously there’s dispute at this point, which is going to have to be sorted out. That is something that can be -- could be useful to the work the Ministry is doing?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And one last question, and that deals with the Emergency Acts as such. Is there room for, or should there be room for coordination between Emergency Acts, because we hear about what Ontario’s Emergency Act can do, what the federal could do, what triggers one, what doesn’t trigger the other, and obviously in this case, the Emergency Act of Canada, I guess, is 40 years old, or 30 some years old. So is there room for coordination or is that something that you don’t think should be pursued or looked into?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you very much. And thank you for your patience, your staying late, and for coming back after yesterday’s failure to complete your examination. So you’re free to go. We’re now not early, but we’re finished for the day, and we’ll adjourn until Monday morning at 9:30. And I expect next week will be longer days. Again, the same sort of days we’re having this week. So prepare yourselves accordingly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. J’espère que tout le monde a eu une bonne fine de semaine. I hope everyone enjoyed the weekend. So I understand this morning we have a presentation of an overview report. Is that...
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you slow down for the interpreters, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner