Brendan Miller
Brendan Miller spoke 2306 times across 28 days of testimony.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning. My name's Brendan Miller of Foster LLP, and I am counsel to Freedom Corp, which is a organisation that represents the protestors of which attended Ottawa in January and February of 2022. My colleague, Ms. Bath-Sheba van den Berg, of Foster LLP, is my co-counsel on this matter, as well as the solicitors of record, both Mr. Keith Wilson, King's counsel, as well as Ms. Eva Chipuik, who is counsel to the convoy. With respect to sort of everyone's giving an overview of the theory of their case, it is our view that there was no justification whatsoever to invoke the Emergencies Act. The Emergencies Act requires several things: One, it could be invoked due to espionage and sabotage. Are you going to hear any evidence about espionage and sabotage? The answer to that is no. Two, it could be invoked on the basis of clandestine or deceptive foreign influence, or foreign influence that involves the threat to a person. Are you going to hear evidence about that? The answer to that is no. It also could be invoked on the basis of threats or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property? Are you going to hear evidence of violence against persons or property? The answer is no. Lastly, it can also be invoked if there is a group or persons trying to destroy or overthrow by violence the system of Government of Canada. Are you going to hear evidence about individuals trying to do that? The answer is no. And the answer is, is that there was no reasonable and probable grounds to invoke the Emergencies Act and that the Government exceeded their jurisdiction, both constitutionally and legislatively, in doing so. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So good morning. Ms. Li, I'd like to start with you if that's okay. So, Ms. Li, I understand you're 21 years of age; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now 22. But at the time of the events in question in January and February of this year you were 21?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you said already you're a public servant. You work for the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you worked for the Government of Canada during the protest period; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what do you do for your employment for the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And with which Ministry or department are you with?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, I understand that, but what department were you with and what were you doing for work for the Government of Canada at the time?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Shared Services Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what Ministry does that come under?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I understand that you know Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I also understand that you know NDP member of provincial parliament for Ottawa Centre Joel Harden; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And from some public articles, I also understand that you were introduced to lawyer Mr. Paul Champ sometime between January 28th, 2022, and February 4th, 2022; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
January 28th, 2022, and February 4th, 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what date were you introduced to Mr. Champ?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so someone introduced you to Mr. Champ; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And is it not true that it was Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney who put you in touch with Mr. Champ?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand that you are the recent co-chair of the 2002 [sic] Leader Summit for Action Chinese Canadians Together; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And as part of that summit, I understand you gave a video statement of how you became who you are today; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And it focussed on the protest in Ottawa and became -- and becoming the lead plaintiff in the class action that you filed; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And there you described becoming the lead plaintiff in a class action as a fateful and surreal story; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you said there you had the opportunity to make a difference; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you said that the lawyers needed a plaintiff.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you were asked to be the lead plaintiff; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And was there anyone else other than Mr. Champ who was asking you to be the lead plaintiff?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so Mr. Champ reached out to you randomly? How did Mr. Champ get in touch with you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I just want to take you back as well to that speech you gave with the Leaders' Summit for Action for Chinese Canadians Together. Just let me know if this is correct what you said. This is how you described the protest. "It was insane. It was the strangest Twilight Zone purge scenario where people weren't quite purging, but the opportunity was there because there was just no laws being enforced. So it was this crazy, crazy thing, with hot tubs, with right-wing extremists and then right-wing moderates as well. And then you just -- your confused average grandmother saying, "Oh, isn't this really a great time. I wonder what the air raid sirens are for."" Those are your statements; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And when you say purge scenario, for the folks at home as well as anybody here, I take it you're referring to the film series The Purge; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it was your belief the protest provided a purge opportunity; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But again, you said earlier, and you admitted that you stated it was the strangest Twilight Zone purge scenario where people weren't quite purging, but the opportunity was there; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you believe that the opportunity was there for a purge-type scenario; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So in the move The Purge, you agree that it’s about that for one day in the United States called the purge, that there are no laws enforced and the population can commit murder, which is the purge. Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And a purge opportunity was available?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So people could potentially commit murder? That was your concern?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you then, I understand, from your evidence that you provided to the Commission prior in your statement, I understand that you started to hear honking on Friday, January 28th; right? Or January 28th, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And when you provided the statement to the Commission, did you provide it yourself?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They interviewed you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. And I understand that you obtained the injunction on February 5th, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February 4th, 2022, you obtained the injunction to stop the honking? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well there was ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well I understand there was an interim injunction approved the first two days, and then on the 7th it was approved? Is that the correct facts? Or would -- -
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Trial. You said trial. I just want to clarify for the record. There was no trial. It was an application; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. And then after you obtained the injunction, I understand that things got a little bit better; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so you said you gave your statement to the Commission before you testified here today; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And when you gave your statement, you knew you had to be truthful?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And when you gave that statement, of course you wanted to include all important observations and interactions that you had with the protestors? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure. And so when you provided the Commission your statement, I take it that you would have told them all the important information that you wanted them to know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I won’t put the statement to her. I’ll move on. I understand that you noticed the honking generally stop after the injunction was granted, though some trucks still honked intermittently for short periods of time? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so that’s what happened after the injunction? Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now between January 28th and February 5th, 2022, did you attend your employment at the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And at the Government of Canada, I take it that you are on salary? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So between January 28th, 2022 and February 5th, 2022, you did not lose any income? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But prior to the situation as well, you were working from home, wasn’t that also under the general covid policy for Government of Canada employees?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So prior -- weren’t you working from home prior to January 28th, 2022 anyway?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And how long were you working from home for?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what agency were you employed with before?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Canada Revenue Agency. And so from January 28th, 2022, and before, you were already working at home?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. And moving on from sort of your background with working from home, I understand that you had the interactions with the protestors and you confronted them on Kent Street. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when you confronted those protestors, do you remember saying to them, which was recorded, “Go back to where the fuck you are from?”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And I take it that you never saw any of the -- or never said to the Commission, or saw any protestors or truckers physically harm anyone? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you never said to the Commission, and nothing in that regard, with respect to seeing protestors or truckers threatening to physically harm anyone either; did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you didn’t say to the Commission or see anything in your observations that could be classified as espionage or sabotage?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t see anything that could be classified as espionage or sabotage?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And you didn’t say to the Commissioner you observed any of the protestors or truckers destroy or light a fire to any buildings or anything like that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Outside. So you’re saying that they were destroying the outside of buildings? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But they weren’t trying to knock down any form of buildings, or property, or anything like that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well I understand their intentions, but I submit you didn’t see them do anything like that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you didn’t see them try to destroy any other trucks or vehicles or light them on fire or anything?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And so I just want to talk to you a little bit about that class action as well. So you became the lead plaintiff on February 4th when it was filed; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And as of today, I understand there were only three other additional plaintiffs to that action? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the first one is Happy Goat Coffee Company? Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And Happy Goat Coffee Company is a chain of coffee shops that has three coffee shops in the downtown area? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And the second plaintiff is, they got added, it’s a numbered company, but it operates as Union Local 631. And I understand that’s a restaurant and bar on Somerset Street? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And the third plaintiff is a fellow by the name of Geoffrey Devaney? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he was a bartender and server at a restaurant in ByWard Market?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And that he doesn’t live in downtown Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so after you got the injunction on February 5th, I understand that both yourself and Mr. Champ began to offer the protestors and truckers an agreement that they could sign to be released from your class action if they agreed to leave. Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But after the -- on the -- beginning the 5th as well, as I understand, you began to offer this release to the protestors and truckers? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so who was it that you had going out handing out copies of this release to the truckers? Do you remember?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did you know that Councillor McKenney was handing them out for you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And now you do from me telling you, or did you know before this?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand also that you know the NDP Member of Provincial Parliament for Ottawa, Senator Joel Harden. Do you know him?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he was contacting people and organizing events to raise money for your lawsuit? Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And was it not the Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney and NDP Member of Provincial Parliament for Ottawa, Joel Harden, who supported you and put you forward for that claim? Is that not correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I just want to bring you to sort of another statement that you had said when you were at the Leaders Summit for Action for Chinese Canadians.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you gave a video?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So can you agree with me that you stated the following: “It came about that the lawyers needed a lead plaintiff to stand up and speak about what was going on and really try to make a difference, because we weren’t seeing any change in our community, which was not acceptable for anybody, but being a Chinese Canadian, it is a bit of an odd role to play, because it's not something that is really necessarily supported or common within our culture, but I really saw the need for somebody, anybody to stand up and speak for the people and help us out of the situation we were in, and the stars really aligned and here I am." (As read)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my questions for you, Ms. Li, and then I just have a few for Ms. La Ronde.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If His Honour would like, that's fine.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So Ms. La Ronde, good morning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So, Ms. Ronde, I understand just from your background, and I'm not trying to poke or anything like that, but I understand you were born around 1947 in Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I won't -- I'm not going to. I promise not to do that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, all right. And I don't want to get into too much with your disability and I'm very sorry ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- for the struggles that you've had particularly during the convoy and protest but I understand that about in 1961 is when you began to lose your sight; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And despite that, you thrived. You obtained a bachelor degree in psychology from the University of Saskatchewan in 1974?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you completed your law degree at the University of Saskatchewan in 1984?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
'83.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And thereafter you completed your masters of law at the London School of Economics; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And how many jurisdictions are you a member of the bar in or a member of the solicitor's group?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand that after becoming a member of the bar you began to work for the Government of Canada; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you spent 10 years with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then you were also with the Department of Veteran Affairs Canada; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And around that -- in the '80s, you also incorporated a company called De La Ronde International Inc.; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that company is still in operation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And is that company not a federal government contractor?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. But it does do government contracts and assists with I believe a lot of First Nations work; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you worked as a lawyer for the Government of Canada; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I don't know the answer to this and I'm going to ask that of you, do you mind telling the folks what brought about your participation in this Commission?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions for the both of you, and have a good morning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller, I’m counsel for Freedom Corp. I've been asked to make sure that we introduce ourselves before we start. I just have a few questions for you, and just seeing how, most of these are what you call Brown and Dunn questions. I just need to give them to you so that there’s some other evidence down the road. I need to be fair to you, so I need to put a lot of this to you, okay?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So yes, sorry, I’m too lawyer.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s good, it’s good. You did a very good job, you sold me. So -- okay. So I understand that after protests there was two funds set up, one being $20 million was set aside by the federal government to compensate Ottawa businesses affected by the protest, and another one for 10 million from the provincial government. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And to date, or at least as of June, I understand that of the federal government funds, only 8.6 million have been used. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And of the $10 million provided by the province, I can't find if much of that was used. Can you tell us, do you know any amounts with respect to the amount of money that was used from the provincial funds?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. You had said in your evidence, Ma’am, that Uber Eats wasn't available during the protests. I'm going to put it to you that it was.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you -- I’m giving you an opportunity --
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s the purpose of this, so ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- I want to be fair to you. I'm going to put it to you that Uber Eats in fact was operating during the protest, and was in fact even delivering food to the protesters.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you yourself experience any inability to use Uber Eats?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Did either of you have contact with the Member of Parliament, Mona Fortier during this time? I believe she was the President of the Treasury.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it that when you contacted her, at one juncture you asked her to help you with respect to removing police blockades that were affecting the market in your area. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in the videos my friends from the Commission played for you, those videos taken by you, you would agree that there was no honking or noise in the background in those videos, was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And what time -- I saw all the videos it was ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Roughly 6:00 p.m. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you agree in both those videos there’s no loud noises, there’s no honking while you’re driving and taking those videos?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And were you aware that on January 25th, 2022, the City of Ottawa received an email from the Hotel Association here in town stating that the truckers and protesters had booked stays for over 30 days?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So can -- is it fair to say that, to your knowledge, that the Municipality of -- or the City of Ottawa knew on January 25th, 2022, that these protesters and truckers were intending to stay a lot longer than the weekend?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you had mentioned that you saw some folks pouring out urine and other fecal matter or what have you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, okay. And what date was that; do you recall?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But it wasn't at the beginning?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Were you aware that the protesters -- I know truckers had applied for and had been given permits for porta potties originally, but those permits were then pulled?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, that was the beginning -- at the beginning. And I just -- I'm trying to prepare you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you had mentioned that you had seen or heard from some store owner that they had sold out of knives and bear spray; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it fair to say though that you never saw any protesters or truckers running around waving knives?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Good. I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you never -- -
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So and you never saw protesters with bear spray?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And despite that Canadian Tire had sold out of these items, you had no knowledge of who they sold all of these items to; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you don't know if you sold them to protesters or if they sold them to local residents; would that be fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Credit cards. Well ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think the feds will need to get another order for production for all that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Way above mine too.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I believe those are all my questions for you. Thank you very much.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d like to say good morning, but it’s good evening. So I’ll start with yourself ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, first -- I am Brendan from Alberta, I’m Brendan Miller; I’m counsel for Freedom Convoy which is an organization that represents the protestors as well as the truckers that were in your City in 2022. So, Mr. Fleury, I want to start just asking you a few questions if you don’t mind. Do you remember sending an email on February 4th, 2022 to Kim Ayotte, Steve Kanellakos, Keith Egil, Serge Arcand, Lucille Collard and Liberal Member of Parliament for Ottawa Centre Yasir Navi with a tweet from the formal federal Attorney- General, Mr. Allan Rock, that stated the City should obtain an injunction to restrain the truck horns on the basis of nuisance; do you remember sending that email?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I understand that Mr. Ayotte, General Manager of Emergency & Protective Services for the City of Ottawa replied to you; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From Steve K himself?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And from your recollection what was that answer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was just asking if he remembered, and I’m not permitted to, because I didn’t seek leave prior, so -- and it’s under the rules. So in your evidence, you made use of the term you referred to as “micro aggression”; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Is micro aggression, is your understanding of that, that it means verbal and environmental slights?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, je m’appelle Brendan.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
One of the words that I put to you, and there’s a few, so “means” “verbal” and “environmental” and “slights” is confusing. What one are you confused about it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Could someone give him a pair of these so he can understand what I’m saying in English as well please?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is that possible? Do you need this? Would you like one of these for when I question you in English? Because I’m unfortunately incapable of speaking French.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. So you had said that beating up a homeless person was an aggression, at least the translation that’s what it was; that’s more of an assault. So have you witnessed any homeless people get beaten up by protestors?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And were any charges laid?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, who was the individual who was beaten; do you know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thanks. So it was on February 4, 2022 you get that email; were you aware that Chief Sloly as well as the OPP had recommended that the City get an injunction in January -- on January 31?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And both of you, I take it, none of you were on the Police Commission; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you understand that as general councillors not on the Police Commission are involved with the police -- again, my friend was trying to clarify that with you. The police are independent of the City and they can’t share information that they know or their plans with you; do you know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. So those are some of my questions. The other one I had, what is your relationship with Jexi or Zexi Li; how long have you known here?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you ever also assist, and I’ll move on to yourself, Councillor, but with the distribution of the release agreements and the request of the protestors and truckers, to leave under the auspices of signing a release from the injunction and claim that was filed by Ms. Li?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. Those are my questions for you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But prior to that I understand that from some of the information, that you were handing out some of those leaflets for them to sign and to leave -- if they signed it, they would be released from the class action law suit if they left; you were assisting with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. And I think a lot of these actually my friend has gone through most of them. When did Chief Sloly advise you that he needed 1800 officers; do you remember when that was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, would you say -- would it be fair to say that he asked for that around February 8th, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so just to clarify, so when you made that motion in the special Council meeting with respect to having the Ottawa Police Service be taken over by the RCMP, that was on February 7th, 2022; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And why did you choose the RCMP and not the OPP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. In some of the records, a colleague of yours -- I believe you know him -- NDP Member, Provincial Parliament, Joel Harden, he was contacting members in the community and members in the council trying to raise money for of the claim of Ms. Li; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And one more question, actually, for you, Mr. Fleury. You said earlier in your evidence that individuals and persons couldn’t live the space where the protestors had set up; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So how did the protestors live there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I’m -- these individuals that are living there in the area, of course, are in their houses and as well as in their apartments; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You said it wasn’t livable for the residents, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If they’re living in their houses and these truckers and protesters are living in their trucks, right ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. You would also define the trucks as weapons?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And how were those weapons used to assault anyone or hurt them other the horns and the diesel you’ve already spoken about? Is that it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So it’s your view that a truck sitting on the side of a road with somebody sleeping inside of it is a weapon?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, so ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. How many individuals that you know of, since the occupation or the protest has ended, did you know during that time that vacated their residences?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And last question, Ms. McKenney -- or Councillor McKenney, you talked in your evidence-in-chief about a counter-protest, correct -- that you attended?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I have to put this to you just -- it’s about a fairness question because there may be evidence about this later. Did you recall seeing at that protest a sign with one of the counter-protests with a swastika on in that stated, “Gas the unvaccinated”? Do you remember seeing that there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my only questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Good afternoon. My name is Brendan Miller. I'm counsel for Freedom Corp., which is a entity that represents the protesters that attended in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Thank you for coming here today, sir. Sir, I just want to begin dealing with the issue with respect to the agreement that then went awry on February 14th and 15th and 16th; okay? So I first want to put to you a statement from one of your colleagues, Mr. Arpin, and I want to ask you if that is an accurate understanding of what he said. And I'm doing this to be fair to you because he's testifying next; right? So as I understand it, this is Mr. Arpin's evidence on that point, is that, "On February 12th, 2022, an agreement was reached with the protesters who promised to remove 75 percent of the trucks in residential areas. Mr. Arpin had several conversations with Mr. French, including an in-person meeting to finalize the details of the agreement. Mr. Arpin spoke only with Mr. French and held no discussions with protestors. The mayor did not take part in the discussions between Mr. French and Mr. Arpin. Per the agreement, some vehicles would be relocated to Wellington Street. The City's understanding was that some protesters wanted to leave entirely, and the others would relocate to sites outside the city (for instance, Vankleek Hill). According to the City, it was understood that the agreement was not a permanent solution, but it was nevertheless considered a short- term victory for residents overwhelmed by the protest. On February 13th, 2022, some senior members of the Ottawa Police Service, including Chief Peter Sloly, the Deputy Chief Steve Bell and Superintendent Rob Drummond were advised of the content of the agreement. They shared no concern about the plan. Furthermore, during the meeting with some senior OPS members, they stated that the agreement could ease tensions with the protesters and increase the police's capacity to respond since they would have a smaller footprint to manage. Also, it was Mr. Arpin's understanding that the Superintendent Drummond took part in a meeting where he was involved in elaborating the plan's details with Mr. K..." (As read) And I'll call you that. I'll butcher pronouncing it. "...a meeting in which Mr. Arpin was not involved. According to Mr. Arpin, there was no doubt that Deputy Chief Bell and Superintendent Drummond were aware that a number of vehicles would be added to Wellington Street. Chief Sloly was advised of the agreement during a meeting, whose attendees included Kim Ayotte, General Manager of the City's Emergency and Protective Services and Mr. K. He also received by email a copy of the letter from Mayor Watson to the convoy organizers confirming the agreement. The agreement was announced to council members that day. On February 14th, 2022, the protesters began moving the trucks with the support of OPS. In the afternoon, according to information provided to Mr. Arpin and for reasons unknown to him, the OPS ended the operation. It was his understanding that approximately 102 vehicles (roughly 25 percent of the vehicles) had been moved in the meantime, including approximately 40 heavy trucks." (As read) Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's your colleague, Mr. Arpin's statement.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's what he said happened.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not going to question you about it. I just wanted to know whether or not it's accurate. I have to put it to you in order to make sure that I'm fair to you. And so I can break it down.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, Mr. K., on February 12th, 2022, there was an agreement reached with the protesters; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that agreement -- in that agreement, they promised to move 75 percent of the trucks from the residential areas?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And per the agreement, some of the vehicles were to be relocated to Wellington Street; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it was your understanding that some of the protesters wanted to leave entirely as well?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it was your understanding that others were going to relocate to sites outside the City?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And according to the City, it understood the agreement was not a permanent solution?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But the City, nevertheless, considered a short-term victory for residents overwhelmed by protests.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so on February 13th, 2022, there was a meeting between members of the Ottawa Police Service including Chief Peter Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, and Superintendent Rod Drummond, and they were advised of the content of the agreement. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it fair to say that none of the Ontario Police Service members on the call shared concerns about the plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But they did say to -- the OPS members that were present did state that the agreement could ease tensions, is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And by carrying out the agreement, it could also increase the police capacity to respond.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So is there any doubt at all that Deputy Chief Bell knew about this agreement?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And even though he may not have been there, Superintendent Drummond eventually found out about the agreement that day, is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Superintendent Drummond never raised any concern with you with respect to that agreement?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it’s true that on February 14th, 2022, the protesters began to move the trucks with the support of OPS, is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it not true that it was OPS that ended the operation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it was not the protesters or the truckers who didn’t follow through with the deal. They were stopped by OPS from following through with it; isn’t that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so wasn’t there approximately 102 vehicles moved, roughly 25 percent and they had moved in the meantime approximately 40 heavy trucks; is that not correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you did have dealings with Mr. Keith Wilson throughout these negotiations; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And that included both texts and phone calls?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So if we can bring up Document HRF0001333, please? And can you scroll down? Just down to the text messages, to the first -- to the beginning. Right there. Scroll back up. Page 2, please. Just right at the top. Okay. So Mr. K, is that a set of text messages between you and Mr. Wilson?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So Mr. Wilson there, he’s in blue and you’re in grey; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, no. So there you state, or Keith, Mr. Wilson states to you: “Trucker logistics delegation of 5 persons will be arriving for a 5:30 pm meeting at [the] city hall. Please confirm receipt. Thank you. Keith here” And you confirmed it. And you said: “Call me when they arrive and tell me what city hall entrance they are at and I will come and get them. Thank you Keith. Steve K” Right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you guys met. And if we could scroll down? And that was on February 13th. And he says: “Will do. I have given Eva and Tom [being Eva Chipiac (phonetic) and Tom Marazzo] your cell number” You said, “Perfect”. There was then some issues, as I understand, a misunderstanding on social media, and you had an exchange about that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that’s that exchange. If you can scroll down, Ma’am? And Mr. Wilson got that fixed.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Mr. Wilson then let you know, if we can just scroll down -- I think the whole thing’s there too. On February 14th at 10:13 a.m.: “FYI. Trucks are ready to [be] move[d] but are being blocked by police.” And you responded: “I’m fixing that We are allowing 10 trucks now as a sign of good faith” And he responds: “Thanks. Eva is heading to Chris B [being Chris Barber] to be on the ground there.” And you said, “Okay, good.” Then he stated: “FYI. Tamara Lich...former Premier Peckford plan to hold a press conference...” If you could scroll down: “...at 3 pm today. The sole and exclusive Focus will be on the federal governments [sic] announcement of the invocation of the emergencies act. No other topics will be discussed. No comments will be made about the arrangement with the city to relocate the trucks [to] D escalate pressure on [the] residences [sic]” And you say: “Thank you. This is very good to know. Appreciate the heads up” And then the next day, he asks whether -- telling you: “The truckers want to move 40 plus trucks tomorrow starting in the morning. They have...room on Wellington to fit [it]. That would just about clear out almost all...the residential areas.” And you then advise him that you’re having some4 issues -- if you can scroll down -- with the Parliamentary Protection Services. And the new interim Chief is engaged, and you’ll know more tomorrow morning and will share that with you. You then -- after that, on February 16th, as I understand it, you ask him if he’s available for a call, and you have a phone conversation with Mr. Wilson. Isn’t that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And in that phone conversation, as I understand, you apologized that the deal fell apart because of some issues arising with the Parliamentary Security Services, and that it was not the protesters’ fault. Isn’t that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s fair to say that at all times through all of this, Mr. Wilson was engaged with you, and he acted in good faith with you, in your mind?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he did everything he could in his power in order to move these trucks?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And these individuals tried to move their trucks under the agreement onto Wellington, and it was the OPS who didn’t allow it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I want to kind of take you to another point and there’s a lot of folks watching this. Part of these commissions is to get a better understanding for the general public, and so I want to kind of use your very unique background to do that. I understand just from looking at your background that you have an extensive amount of experience in policing, as well as in municipal governments -- governance and general public governance generally, isn’t that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you attended and graduated with both an undergraduate and a Master’s degree from Carleton University?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you graduated with your Bachelor’s degree in Public Administration in 1982?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You then graduated with your Master’s in Public Administration from Carleton university in 1985?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I would like you to do, in your own words, because a Master of Public Administration is actually a very important program. Can you explain for the folks at home and people here about what those programs are about, in your own words?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Those degrees. The Public Administration.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s fair to say that a Masters of Public Administration is one of the primary degrees for such positions as Deputy Ministers, Clerks of the Privy Council, et cetera, and is quite common for individuals who hold office like that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And between 1985 and 1989, what did you do for employment?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just after you graduated from ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And that’s the Gloucester Police Service. And you were there as the Director? Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And the amalgamation between that police service and with Ottawa and Nepean, that occurred in 1994? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then it became Carleton Regional Police Service? Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you became the Director General of the Carleton Regional Police Service?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were in that position between 1994 and the spring of 2000?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you explain, what are your duties as director of the police service?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you were involved in -- unlike your current position, you were involved in the operation of the police service and their operations in that position?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So can you also explain, for the folks at home as well, and they may not understand, about the separation between municipalities and general executive government from the police service and how they’re independent?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it’s fair to say that police constables and the Chief make all of their operational decisions, such as what to do with a protest, as well as what to do when arresting someone or if they’re going to lay charges, that is all independent of any other branch of government?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Or supposed to be?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And on January 30th, 2022, I understand you had a phone meeting with Chief Sloly and that’s when he asked you about getting the injunction? Isn’t that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you had agreed to prepare to seek that injunction, but it was also agreed that the final decision was going to be with you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, after January 30th, 2022, did Chief Sloly, did he say to you -- or did Chief Sloly, sorry, did he say to you that he no longer recommended pursuing that injunction?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you aware that on January 31st, 2022, that Commissioner of the RCMP, Ms. Brenda Lucki, told him that he shouldn’t pursue it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you have any dealings as well with Ms. Brenda Lucki during these events?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it you did have several meetings though with the Executive Branch of the Federal Government? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Prime Minister and Ministers.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so were you kept apprised, at least by Mayor Watson, of his contact with the Prime Minister?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did he relay to you that on January 31st, 2022, that he asked for additional officers from the RCMP from the Prime Minister?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it that you were probably not privy to this call either, but were told about it, on February 3rd, 2022, Mayor Watson had a phone meeting with Minister Mendicino?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And again, he reiterated his request for more officers, I take it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you participate, on February 3rd, 2022, there was a meeting with the representatives of GoFundMe? Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it not true that you talked to representatives of GoFundMe into freezing the funds for the convoy and for the protest and they did so?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The City at large. My apologies. I should -- it was -- both yourself were present, Mayor Watson, and City Solicitor David White, with some GoFundMe reps?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what was the influence for the City not getting the injunction right away after Chief Sloly said to get one?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What was the reason? Why didn’t the City go out and get the injunction?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it throughout your history and working in policing, that you’ve participated in obtaining injunctions in the past; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’ve never participated in obtaining an injunction?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so you don’t have any understanding of how that proceeding would work?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you had said in your evidence that one of the biggest problems that you faced was not having tow trucks?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In relation to removing the protestors or getting them to leave.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you knew that the OPS and OPP had already quite shortly after the weekend that they stayed longer than you anticipated, had already gathered the license plates, registration, et cetera, for all of those trucks and they had them in their possession?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I understand the issue with tow trucks, but having all that information in their possession and given that you were a director of police, you know what a BOLO is; don’t you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it’s a “Be on the Lookout”; right? And if one were to drive a truck here, they would have a set of keys?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So no one issued a BOLO for the drivers to have them arrested and take their keys; did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Why?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you don’t know about that as an option wasn't something you considered when you were trying to deal with this issue?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh. I will just wrap this up then. That's fine. Thank you very much.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening, sir. I’m Brendan Miller. I’m legal counsel for Freedom Corp, which is the entity that’s representing the protestors who were here in January and February of 2022. I just have a few questions for you. I’m actually going to be quite quick. And first, thank you for your very detailed and forthright testimony already today. First question is just, with respect to this agreement that had been set up between the protestors and truckers to relocate, I understand that relocation was supposed to be of all vehicles from everywhere, except Wellington. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well I can tell you that it’s our understanding, from our clients at least, that it was simply to be Wellington in the end. That was it. Do you -- does that change what you’ve just said at all? That that was the intention?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I also understand then that the Mayor’s vision for how this would work out as well, and some of the protestors and truckers, was that all trucks, other than the ones on Wellington, would be moved out of town, and that the protestors would just shuttle in in busses from their camps outside of town on a go-forth?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree, and from your statement, that it was the police that prevented the deal from being executed in the end; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And -- but it’s fair to say that Mr. Wilson, in your dealings with him, he never indicated to you that the protestors and truckers ever intended to renege on the deal?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my only questions. Have a good evening, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mayor Watson.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- Freedom Corp, which is an organization that represents the protestors that were in your city in January and February 2022. I’m just going to get set up here. So, Mayor Watson, following up on some of my friend’s questions that have been put to you today, and how things have come out, do you agree with me that you did not handle the situation that was before you in January and February 2022 properly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And can you agree with me that you politicized the protests and politicized the situation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’d agree that the politicization of the matter, which you claim was not yourself, but that the matter was politicized by the Federal Government?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you agree that making of the protests a political issue in the governance level created problems?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Do you agree with me that the following governments and agencies handled this matter properly? First, the Government of Ontario?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Ottawa Police Service?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you’ve said that they were on the ground from day one; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And as the Mayor of a town, you don’t have -- or the city, you don’t have the security clearance or the clearance to know what the actual operational activities are of a police agency; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I’m going to take you back. So I’ll just be more narrow. So during the protests, you did not know what the operational activities were of the Ontario Provincial Police; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you see -- you saw certain uniformed officers arrive; right? From the Ontario Provincial Police.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t know how many officers, really, the Ontario Provincial Police had here from January 26th until the invocation of the Emergencies Act; did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so just in summary, you had, with respect to their operational plans, and what they were doing, and everything that the police were up to, you did not know what they were doing, either the Ontario Provincial Police, or the Ottawa Police Service; right? They didn’t tell you because they couldn’t?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to make it very clear, and I'd just like you answer this question, if you don’t mind. The Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service did not and could not update you on their actual operational plans, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, you used to be the Communication Director for the Speaker of the House in federal Parliament; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you then became a member of provincial Parliament?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then a member of provincial Parliament after that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Then mayor, and then a member of provincial Parliament after that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, congratulations. But at some juncture, you became a member of provincial Parliament, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Thank you very much. And when you became that member of provincial Parliament, it was with the Liberal Party of Ontario at the time; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you then became the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing from October 30th, 2007?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you held that office until January 12th, 2010?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that’s the Ministry that oversees the City of Ottawa and all other municipalities under the Municipalities Act, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you're very familiar, of course, then because you held that office, with the Municipal Act, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you'd also be familiar with that as the mayor of the City?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And the current Minister of Municipal Affairs and at the time of the protest was Mr. Steve Clark, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the City of Ottawa, like all municipalities across the country, it's a creature of statute that exists at the behest of the provincial legislature; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And you agree that if the Provincial Parliament of Ontario wanted to, they could set out how they want Ottawa to be governed, and can basically do what they wish in that regard, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you could agree with me that the City of Ottawa is treated the same by the Government of Ontario as any other municipality in Ontario, aren't they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I've not seen in any of the many records in this proceedings that have been produced that at any time whatsoever that you contacted Minister Clark.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the issue that you were facing was a resource issue; was it not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, you know then that under section 302 of the Municipal Act, that the minister may, upon such terms and conditions as it considers available or advisable, make grants and loans and provide other financial assistance to a municipality, right? You're aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And at no time did you ever ask for any form of financial assistance from Minister Clark, did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You did with the premier?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you and I both know from your former workings as the actual minister, that you go through the minister's office, right? You ask then for financial assistance and they can give you a grant and give you money to deal with things like protests on an emergency basis even if they want, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it wasn’t a disaster?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So the thing is this, can you agree with me, as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, that having a program set out is not a requirement for the minister to give a city a grant? They can actually just do it under the Municipal Act, can they not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I understand that. But what I'm saying to you is this, that the minister -- and when you were minister, you had the power to grant these grants, even if there was no program; is that not true?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the City of Ottawa then had adequate financial funds to deal with the protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the only issue is was actually getting bodies, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I just got something you said. You said you wanted the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You needed it to get the tow trucks?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it, Mr. Mayor, that you have, of course, a relationship with probably numerous members of Parliament from your position as mayor in Ottawa, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did anybody tell you before the Emergencies Act was invoked that it was coming?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you didn’t know if you were going to get these powers or what have you were going to be ordered with respect to towing vehicles?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you do know and you've already mentioned that of course, the Ottawa Police Service Board is independent of the Police Service, the Ottawa Police Service, and they have no ability to order operational sort of orders or bylaws, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, you also that, of course, the Province of Ontario, and Premier, and the Ministers at the provincial level, they have no ability to order the OPP to do anything with respect to resource either?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you know these two things, right ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and you knew them at the time?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it would have been the Commissioner of the OPP that would be making those decisions, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And at no time -- and that’s Mr. Thomas Carrique; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree with me that at no time while you were looking for these resources did you contact the Commissioner of the OPP to outline what you wanted, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be inappropriate?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He’s the Commissioner of the OPP. What’s the difference -- you’re okay with having contact with the Prime Minister of the country but you’re not okay having contact with the Commissioner of the OPP to ask him for what you need?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you have phone calls with the Minister of Justice and the Premier with respect to what you needed?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so, again, just in your statement that you provided, I didn’t see when the dates were that you had these conversations with the Premier. When were they? What were the dates?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February? So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So -- and I can tell you that the Prime Minister and the Premier were talking around that time, too, and he -- the Premier had told the Prime Minister, and I’m going to put it to you that he also to you, that he had no ability to order the OPP to provide you officers; it had to come from the Commissioner and OPP themselves, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he told you that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and the Premier told you that he wouldn’t join the tripartite meetings because it was pointless.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and it was.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because you were looking for officers and they couldn’t order officers.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And this protocol that you’ve been talking about and mentioned, is it in writing?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that but there’s nothing that I know of, at least -- and if you could point me to it -- that says that you were prevented from either calling Commissioner Lucki or calling the Commissioner of the OPP and saying, “Hey, we need some more resources. Can you do this for us?”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not saying that, sir. I’m asking you if there’s an actual policy that says you are not allowed to call and make a request to the police; is there a policy in that regard?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, so it wasn’t a protocol; it was what the City solicitor told you to do?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll ask him about that when he testifies.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The other questions I have for you have to do with the mediator. Now, you had asked ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The mediator.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You had asked the Federal Government if they could appoint and independent mediator; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Federal Government said no?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they said no because they didn’t want to look like they were engaging with the protesters; is that right?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- you said that you had no issues with financial resources at the time, so why didn’t you just hire a mediator?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So Mr. French steps forward. He says, “I can help,” and he finds some common ground and was going back and forth, of course, between the City and the protestors?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So he mediated the issue?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And after that agreement was done, the protestors followed the agreement and tried to get onto Wellington, and the only thing that ended up stopping them was the police; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I put it to you that after the Emergencies Act was invoked -- and you may have heard some of this evidence yesterday -- that there was just a change and that it was the City who decided not to follow through with the agreement with the protestors, and that was what happened with respect to that agreement.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you would agreed then, these statements that have been out by various people, that the protesters did not live up to the agreement are incorrect. In fact, they did.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's been numerous ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's okay. But you agree that the protesters lived up to their end of the bargain; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you had early said in your evidence that, you know, you couldn't negotiate with these people rationally, but you did have that done in the end; didn't you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- but I just want to get my question answered. So they said -- you said early you couldn't negotiate with them rationally and you had no dealings with any negotiations with them except for the issue with Mr. French; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so prior to that time, you had no attempt or nothing of involvement with respect to attempting to negotiate with the protesters; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So your statement earlier that you could not negotiate with these people rationally, you agree that the one time that you actually had any involvement whatsoever you did; right? You had a rational negotiation that resulted in an agreement; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, sir. For the record, Brendan Miller. I am counsel to the Freedom Corp, which is an organisation representing the protesters that were in your city in January and February of 2022. So just first off, I want to talk to you sort of in your capacity as being the Director of Safety and that sort of thing, sort of overseeing that department. Can you agree with me that between January 27th and February 14th there were over 3,000 tickets issued for provincial and municipal infractions?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And were some of those tickets issued by the By-law Office?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that during the issuing of those over 3,000 tickets none of your by-law officers were assaulted.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you never had reported to you and no charges were laid against any protester issued a ticket with respect to physically assaulting a by-law officer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So 3,000 tickets is a lot. That's a lot of interactions with a lot of protesters. And not a single assaulting a peace officer charge was laid in relation to your by-law officers?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, the numbers, I understand, is that between January 27th and February 14th, there were a total of 31 arrests made, is that correct, of the protesters?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. You don't keep those sort of numbers or you don't capture those sort of numbers?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. To your knowledge, is it not true, again you don't have to -- if you don't have the information please just advise. To your knowledge, is it not true that only 16 people of the protesters between that same time period, January 27th and February 14th, were charged?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, dealing with some of the stuff with respect to the cooperation of the leaders of the protest, as well as dealing with the safety lanes and that sort of thing, is it not true that the protest leaders were actually concerned about maintaining the safety lanes, and raised that with you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they wanted to ensure that the lanes were open so that emergency vehicles could always get through?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the protest leaders cooperated with you and the City in maintaining those safety lanes; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they maintained them?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And when new trucks would even arrive, they even organised to talk with the, what they referred to as block captains. Did they relay that to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. But when new vehicles were arrived, had arrived, to your knowledge you agree that they always organised to make sure that those safety lanes were open?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you did have, I believe, your fire chief even do an inspection of the Coventry Street or Coventry?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when that fire chief did the inspection he asked them not to have any open -- he did not, or -- like he asked them not to have any open firepits; isn't that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand that you attended a logistics meeting at City Hall on Sunday evening of February 13th to discuss the trucks' moves?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it not true that at that meeting the protesters explained who would -- who -- that two -- that two removed camps outside of the city had already been established outside of the city where they would go to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So that's what I'm trying to clarify because I'm just ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- trying to be fair to you because there's going to be evidence about that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So they told you that they had set up two camps in properties they were allowed to be at outside of the city and that they were looking to move there.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then the plan was that vehicles would -- other vehicles would go there and then there would be some other vehicles that would go to Wellington; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the City agreed to that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Now, if the protesters were able to move the vehicles on Tuesday and Wednesday, which is February 15th and 16th, as had been agreed, can you agree that the result would have been most if not all of the vehicles would have been cleared out of downtown except for Wellington?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But isn’t it true, and the Commission has heard evidence, that the move on to Wellington eventually got blocked?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it got stopped by the police, so the deal didn’t go through because of the police?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so if the deal went through and it was followed, the only vehicles and trucks from the protestors would have been on Wellington?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But there was no reneging on the deal on behalf of the protestors at the time and that’s the evidence the Commission’s heard today or to date; would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But the difficulty in moving individuals to Wellington Street after the agreement was announced, I put to you was only stopped because the police wouldn’t let them on to Wellington and because the police then also stopped them from leaving the streets they were parked on; isn’t that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it could because the parking infractions, the signs would say you can’t park between a certain period, and then once that time period lapsed the next day, the time period would start up again.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To my friend’s positions, and I, based on what has been said, I am probably going to go there in my own examination, but I would just like to point out this. I understand that the Police Service Board or Police Commission, has their own legal counsel. It’s not Mr. White. There’s no solicitor/client relationship between this witness and Mr. White, and in my respectful submission as a result, there’s no issue with privilege. Further, if it was a personal solicitor/client relationship if the witness would like to waive solicitor/client privilege, that’s her prerogative.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Ms. Deans.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which is an organization that was incorporated to represent the protestors who were in your city in January and February of 2022. First off, though I am not from here, thank you for your service as the Police Commissioner -- or, we call it the Police Commissioner back home.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So thank you very much. I just want to start off, of course we didn’t get the recording until this morning. In that recording of your conversation with Mayor Watson, you said you had been contacted by someone within OPS who had been called off under the interim chiefship that was then in place with Steve Bell. Can you kind of explain that for me?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I’m just going to have to ask you to clarify what is the event and what is the operation you speak of?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the plan that got cancelled so that my clients could move on and then -- oh, well that confirms what I was looking for. Thank you. You -- did you know about the tripartite meetings that the Mayor was having with federal government elected officials on February 7th, 8th, and 10th of 2022, at the time?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He didn’t tell you about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so obviously you weren’t invited?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And of course, that meeting was about police resources?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’re the Chair of what, you don’t call it the Commission, the Ottawa Police Service Board?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you run that Board that decides how to dole out resources to the police; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you know that on January 30th, 2022, Chief Sloly had asked the City and the City somewhat agreed to get an injunction? Were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
January 30th, 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. The injunctions that you did discuss, did you ever discuss that the terms of that injunction would be to both remove the trucks and get the honking to stop? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did Chief Sloly ever tell you, in any of your conversations, that on January 31st, 2022, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki told him not to get the injunction because it would be an official movement to another stage, that it would involve the whole country, and that anything official will spark a national response? Did he ever say that to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll ask him and Commissioner Lucki then. So you did not know that -- well, you did know that the federal police service, the RCMP, had been involved in the matter, in dealing with the protestors?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And to your knowledge, after January 31st, 2022, did Chief Sloly ever advise to get an injunction still after that point?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And to your knowledge, and I just want to make this clear, because I know that you were in sort of a vacuum, so but you did know that from January 25th to February 14th, 2022, that there were multiple police services involved in dealing with this matter?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that included the Ottawa Police Service, the Ontario Provincial Police, and the RCMP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Among others that you ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that you know as well, at the federal level and the provincial level, it’s not politicians that decide to execute or carry out and apply police resources with respect to events and investigations, but it’s the police agency itself because they’re independent? Right. And to my knowledge as well, and I wanted to put this to you, is there any prohibition on yourself or members of the Ottawa Police Service Board, of Council, contacting someone like Commissioner Lucki or the Commissioner of the OPP to have a discussion about resources?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but is it true with the Commission that you do invite sworn members of police agencies like the OPP and the RCMP to meet with the Ottawa Police Service Board at times and you have in this case too, I believe?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So is it fair to say that there was nothing stopping the Ottawa Police Service Board from asking for any of the Commissioners from the OPP or the RCMP to come before them in order to have a conversation about resources?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can I ask just -- and I'm not trying to poke, but why wasn't that done?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you'd already discussed the company Navigator a little bit, and it was in the news, and I know they contacted you. When was Navigator retained for the Ottawa Police Service; do you remember?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Because how it was seemed to have been spun in the media is that they were hired specifically due to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- Chief Sloly not being able to deal with this.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was done way in advance?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. That's good. I just wanted to know that. And then I understand that when the retainer did happen, and it's good to know it was that far away, if what I'm about to just ask you is correct, I understand the retainer with Navigator was $75,000 on a fee-for-service basis but it was a -- maybe not pay up front, but it was a $75,000 cap, which is usually less than what their normal retainer of 100,000 is. Is that about accurate?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now I also understand the Ottawa Police Service had retained the assistance from a company called Advanced Symbolic Inc., also known as ASI.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you aware of them? When was ASI retained?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what was ASI doing for the Ottawa Police Service exactly; could you explain that? I have an understanding but I'd ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- like you to explain it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Would it be fair to say when ASI was discussed with you, did they refer to the phrase "data analytics"?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So they get all this stuff and then they give you in a report or to Chief Sloly the public perception of what's going on, so that Chief Sloly and his team know how to react; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now I want to take you to one part, and I'm wondering if you're aware of this, and it's come up at some of the production. Do you remember when it was announced -- I believe the Ottawa Police Services had mentioned that they had been in touch with Provincial Child and Family Services about apprehending children in the protest; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you aware that it was Navigator who told them to do that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I just want to get into sort of your -- you know, what you had said. You stated that you had an intention to work together and put aside political differences, and it's good to hear that, and I'm sure the public is happy to hear that as well. I'm just going to have to ask you, can you tell me about your relationship between yourself and Mayor Watson?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Could you agree with me that the tension also started when you decided to -- you had announced, at least to him maybe privately or maybe publicly, that you intended to bring a motion to fund litigation as against Bill C21; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so moving on to the issue with the hiring of the Interim Chief. You heard yesterday and in the recording we heard that Mayor Watson claimed that he had concerns about your and your Council's appointment of the proposed new Interim Chief Matthew Torigian because there was not enough consultation with stakeholders; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before Steve Bell became the Interim Chief, how much consultation was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right at the beginning. So when Steve Bell took over as Interim Chief, how much consultation did Mayor Watson do?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it's fair to say that the issue that Mayor Watson took with your Council or your Board appointing a Chief on the basis that there was no consultation, it's fair to say he went about it and did no consultation and had his own appointed; would you say that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I just wanted to cover one point and I believe it was covered, but just not with a specific association, because there's two police unions; correct? There's the one for senior officers and then the other one?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I also understand your evidence that it was also the Ottawa Police Senior Officer's Association which is those with ranks of inspector and higher who also did not want Sloly as their first choice for mayor -- or for Chief back in 2019; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And with respect to Chief Sloly's relationship, in your statement you specifically mention he had issues with the relationship with the Community Health Resource Centre. Can you elaborate on what that was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And was that organisation with the community health and resource centres, I take it if there was issues in the budget it had to do with tension between funding that the Ontario Police Service was getting versus funding they were not, or et cetera? Is that what it was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, sorry, sorry, Ottawa Police Service. So the Ottawa Police Service was getting some - - a lot higher funding. I take it they wanted more funding. And was that the tension?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was very detailed. Has anyone ever told you maybe you should be the Chair of the Police Board Panel? (LAUGHTER)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So my last question is this: Is it fair to say that one of the biggest contentions with respect to getting information from Chief Sloly wasn't so much just with the information based on everyone's public statements within your Council, what they wanted to know was "Can you give us a date when the protests will end and can you give us a date if it's not going to end how you're going to remove them?" Is that fair? That's really what you wanted to know. That's what your constituents were bugging you about in all the emails.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Chief Sloly, and to no fault of his own, he couldn't tell you that because he didn't even know.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well -- and I understand the extra tools, and I guess we can argue about that, but ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- any -- would you agree with me that if there was a like order to the Emergencies Act to remove the protesters, et cetera, as long as you had the resources that, you know, based on your knowledge as a former Chair of the Police Service Board the police could've removed these protesters simply with a court order on the same terms. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll make the pitch to him instead. Thank you very much.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hello, sir. My name is Brendan Miller. I'm counsel for the Convoy or Freedom Corp. which is an entity that represents the protestors that were in Ottawa on January and February of 2022. I just have a few questions for you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
First, again, thank you for your services and thank you very much for your forthright testimony earlier. Just on something you spoke about in your evidence in-chief, you spoke about the demand of protestors and those demands would simply not be met. I take it that by that you mean the demand for the removal of vaccine or COVID mandates; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And these questions are going to be -- you're going to be able know exactly where I'm going, so I'm just going to be blunt. You didn’t see any evidence in the intelligence of espionage or in support of espionage; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t see any evidence in the intelligence of sabotage or anything in support of sabotage?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t see anything in the evidence -- in any evidence in the intelligence of any form of foreign influenced activities within or relating to Canada that involved the threat to any person?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, for my following question, when I say "serious violence against a person", you'll understand I mean violence that would result in serious personal injury, okay? You didn’t see any evidence in the intelligence of activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat of a use of acts of serious violence against persons, with the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And now, my next question, when I say "serious violence against property", you'll understand I mean violence against property of the nature such as arson or destruction, a bomb, that sort of thing, okay? You didn’t see any evidence in the intelligence of activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of a threat of use of acts of serious violence against property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And you touched on, in your oral evidence, about the labelling of someone as being an extremist. You said that that term, you have a lot of problems with, and I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that for me?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You said just in your evidence in-chief.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that in practice, if the federal government's intelligence apparatus or law enforcement sees a legitimate, credible threat, as we just discussed, they would let you know about it, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and of course the intelligence apparatus in Canada, they’re not technically law enforcement. They provide information and it is the OPP and the RCMP and the Ottawa Police Service who would carry out any law enforcement aspects with respect to any threat domestically, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the federal government would always tell you about these things because they don’t to have any Canadians and individuals harmed, right? They want you to protect them?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To your knowledge, have you been advised by any of those actors that you have not been informed of everything?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, dealing with the issue of lone wolf attackers, can you agree that the last lone wolf attack in the Capital was on October 22nd, 2014, when Michael Zehaf-Bibeau attacked parliament with a firearm; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, can you agree that following that attack, lessons were learned on how law enforcement intelligence agencies would gather intelligence with respect to lone wolf attackers?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And those lessons that were learned from that attack, they were incorporated within the intelligence gathering apparatus both of the OPP and federally, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And a lone wolf attack does not need a protest in order to be carried out, does it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Acting Deputy Chief. And as I was saying, first thank you for your service and thank you for your forthright testimony already here that you’ve given today. I just need to pull one very small strand before I begin. I’m scrolling to it in my own disclosure.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Sorry, sir. Brendan Miller. I am counsel to Freedom Corps, which is the incorporated entity that represents the protectors that were in your city in January and February of 2022. So beginning first with the area that I want to chat with you about is the Hendon reports. You said in your evidence in-chief that Acting Chief Bell’s unit at the time, which I believe was Intelligence ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- they were the ones that would receive the Hendon reports; correct? Okay. And it’s fair to say that it would have been now Acting Chief Bell’s responsibility to pass those reports on to the Office of the Chief and Chief Sloly. That’s who would pass them on to him.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, we heard yesterday that Chief Sloly had to get the Hendon reports from the OPP directly in January of 2022 and Superintendent Morris found that odd because the OPP had been providing those reports to OPS since Project Hendon started in early 2021. To your knowledge, were the Hendon reports not provided by now Acting Chief Bell or his department to Chief Sloly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t know.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so it’s fair to say that -- we’ll have to just ask Chief Bell or Acting Chief Bell that. It’s fair to say, then, that these Hendon reports, they went to someone likely in Chief Bell’s unit but not necessarily Chief Bell?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then that individual, whomever received them, or group would then put together their own product and then provide it to either Chief Bell and then Chief Bell may or may not provide it to Chief Sloly; fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to get that clarified because it’s an important point. I want to talk to you a little bit about the media reports and some of the misinformation that was spoken about yesterday by Superintendent Morris. The media, through reporting at times and statements of elected officials reported that the residents of Ottawa were experiencing unprecedented violence. Do you remember reading that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Can you agree with me that there was not an increase in violent crime or events of violent crime in the City of Ottawa during the protests before the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I understand that prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, between January 27th and February 14th, there was a total of only 13 charges laid as against the protestors. Can you agree with me on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Between January 27th and February 14th, the invocation.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And those charges, I understand, the great majority of them arose after February 14th with respect to the enforcement. It wasn’t for things that happened during the time period prior to the invocation. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So would Acting Chief Bell be able to provide us an accurate number for this Commission with respect to that question?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, hopefully he’s able to do that because I believe that’s an important point. Now, I take it that during the protests, of course, that the Ottawa Police Service, though they weren’t, at times, enforcing by-laws or weren’t enforcing provincial infractions, they were enforcing the Criminal Code in full force and effect; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’re struggling, but if a police officer saw an individual assaulting another or there was a report of an individual to a police officer that they had been assaulted, that was investigated?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Those individuals after that investigation, if it was appropriate, charges were laid against them.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, did Chief Sloly at any time advise you that he had been advised by RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki on January 31st, 2022 to not have the City of Ottawa get an injunction because it's an official movement to another stage, this will involve the whole country and anything official will spark a national response? Did he tell you about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to go through again. You had mentioned in your evidence the Chief under examination from my friends, counsel for Mr. Sloly, that there were certain provisions with the Emergencies Act Order, the Order in Council that assisted removing the protestors. I want to deal with each. So first is the threat or the freezing of bank accounts, all right. So I'd like you to turn your mind to that. How many individuals whose bank accounts were frozen, to your knowledge, immediately exited the downtown of Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Do you have any information that these individuals who had their bank accounts frozen couldn't leave because they couldn't pay to get out of Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So with respect to that, can you agree with me that it was only about 58 or 59 individuals who had their bank accounts frozen?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And dealing with some of the other enforcement provisions, of course you can agree that the Emergencies Act Order did not order an increase in officers for you to remove the protesters?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so that is one of the things that sped it up, but can you agree with me that if there was an order, once you got resources in place, if there was an injunction in place that had the terms of removal inside of it, that these police officers could have done the same thing; couldn't they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to touch on, and we've talked a little bit about misinformation, and, you know, the evidence from Superintendent Morris yesterday was very interesting. He talked about misinformation in detail and misinformation in the media and it was very enlightening. And, of course, there's still some misinformation going around and, you know, even we have misinformation. We don't know what's true and what's not. So I'm going to ask you some questions here. I don't know what the answer to this is going to be, but it may or not be misinformation. Did you tell any of your friends and colleagues within OPS that at some time prior to you giving testimony here today that you were approached by someone who wanted you to give certain evidence that was not true?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I take it that you prepared in advance for giving your evidence in this proceeding in the sense as a police officer would before they testify in a trial or any proceeding?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And unlike regular court proceedings, this proceeding is unique, and there's no exclusion of witnesses' orders and, in fact, the proceeding plays out online and live on TV. I take it you're aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you have the opportunity and privilege to listen to the evidence of Superintendent Morris before testifying today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Well, I'm not going to ask you about his evidence then and ask you to confirm it if you haven't heard it. But can you agree with me that Superintendent Morris is the most senior Intelligence officer within the provincial government in the entire province of Ontario?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know he works hand in hand with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Communications Security Establishment and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You're aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And if anyone in the province within the provincial and, you know, even municipal apparatus knows anything about threats to the security of Canada, it would be him; wouldn't it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Those are my questions. Thank you very much.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My apologies. I have just a few questions -- this is, for the record, Brendan Miller, Counsel for Freedom Corp -- arising from your questions. I had none until some answers came out. There is just probably about two minutes of questions I would like to ask, if I may, sir, with respect to the evidence from the witness regarding there being no more ability to negotiate, et cetera, given that I understand that that wasn’t the case, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very well, sir. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, and there’s no objection, sir. Brendan Miller for Freedom Corp. I can advise that other internet connection works. It’s LACguestsACinvites fully works. It’s not just the one that we typically use.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, my name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which is the incorporated entity that is representing the protestors that were in your City in January ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry. They were -- the protesters that were in your city in January and February of 2022. First, thank you for your service. I just have a few questions for you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. So I take it, sir, that you were aware of the February 8th, 2022 media briefing that the Ontario Police Service gave where it was said to the media and in the public that OPS had concerns for the children of the protesters in Ottawa and OPS wanted to discuss enforcement with the Child Aid Society of Ontario. You're aware that happened?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a clip.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And -- but I understand, sir, from reviewing just the disclosure generally that with respect to that media announcement that you were in fact not supportive of it, it being announced to the media in that way. Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, with enforcement of child protection laws, which in this province is the Child Youth Family Services Act, you agree that enforcement is essentially either the threat or the actual apprehension of children from parents; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, this was, of course, done when Chief Sloly was still Chief, and I, of course, will have questions for him in the same regard. But I understand it that you had nothing to do with it but you now know that it was the firm, the political firm, Navigator, that recommended that such and announcement be made. Do you know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you aware that the Child Aid Society of Ontario had no idea that announcement was being made and were quite unhappy about it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So weren't aware that Navigator completed a report for February 5th that talked about some social media commentary about how they could be using -- the protesters could be using children as human shields, and that based on that they recommended that this announcement be made. You're not aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. It's anticipated that our witnesses are going to say that the day after that announcement, on February 9th, is when the workers from Child and Family Services started to intervene with the protest. Do you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But that was at the enforcement stage, as I understand it. You had set up, from my review of the records, an empty gymnasium of some kind to take children to and then the plan was to give them back to their parents. That was what you were thinking of; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you're going to hear evidence eventually from some of the protesters when they eventually testify that some of the ones that were arrested, upon their release they were essentially kidnapped by OPS officers, driven out of town in the middle of February winter by OPS officers, and left in various rural areas and parking lots outside of town with no shelter or resources. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So one of the areas, there were several as I understand, one of them was a municipal parking lot where the trucks were being towed to.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that parking lot doesn't have a building you drop them off at, it doesn't have a phone, it doesn't have any of that, does it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can tell you it didn't. So -- and these people are driven out there. They were already told they weren't charged and they weren't being charged, they were being released. But they were driven and forced outside of Ottawa, or on the outer skirts, and dropped off in the snow. Now, are you aware this happened; yes or no?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In your evidence in-Chief you kept using the word "violence" regarding protesters; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you've heard the evidence of Superintendent Morris already, you sort of touched on that, and he had stated that the lack of violence in Ottawa during the protest was actually shocking.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So is it fair to say that when you use the phrase "violence" you're not actually describing any form of physical assaults, are you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the violence that they felt, not actual violence, is that what you're saying?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and not ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I -- thank you, I understand what you mean. But you're not talking about violence under section 2 of the CSIS Act, are you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thanks. Now, I'd like to take you to a document right now if I can. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we could pull up document POE.HRF.0000001. Is it possible to turn that so that it's the... (SHORT PAUSE)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. So Chief, this is an email exchange of February 15th, 2022, between one of your officers, Cameron Hopgood, and Mathieu Gravel of the Mayor of Ottawa's staff. You know who both of those individuals are; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what is Cameron Hopgood's job as an OPS officer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. If we can just scroll down just a little bit? So in this email, Mathieu Gravel asks for all the stats in the previous email with respect to criminal investigations, arrests, and charges. And Cameron Hopgood responds and says that there had been a total of 31 people arrested, but only 16 people charged as of February 15th, 2022. Would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And of course, you just said he's in the data section, so he would know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right? So you have no reason to disbelieve that there were only 16 charges laid as between January 28th and February 15th, 2022, regarding the protestors; isn't that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that is -- if I can call the next document -- it's the POE.HRF00000002. And it's a copy of this -- the table, but I've added some highlighting to it, and some numbers. If we can zoom in on that? And this has been provided to all the parties. So what I've done is the sections that are highlighted, okay ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. I had sent them out, I think, this morning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can do it with your document. It would just be easier for everybody to understand. It's up to you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. So all this document is is the exact document he just referred to except I highlighted the stats between January 29th and February 13th, and then calculated three times, double checked the total number of charges and what they were for that time period. That’s all it is. I'm happy to ask him the same questions, if the Commission is inclined, but I think it would help everybody to essentially see. It's essentially a cross-examination tool, per se.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They're just the numbers to that date. That’s it, and added up.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the only thing is, I have highlighted in yellow every type of charge between January 29th and February 13th, and in red, at the end of that, I added the amount of charges that existed as of February 13th, 2022, at 11:59 p.m.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what I want to do is take you through this, sir. So we've got that up, and I've explained it already. So I understand the protest begins at January 28th, 2022, and in that entire time period until February 13th, 2022 at 11:59 p.m., there are a total of 4 charges laid for assault; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so that’s a period of 17 days?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, it's 29th. They put the first charge first as you'll see that it doesn’t have every single date on it. They only put the dates on it with respect to when charges were laid. There were days that went where no one was charged at all?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, it's not ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it? Okay. That’s why I went to law school. I can't do math.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But -- and you can agree with me that between January 29th to February 13 there was a total of 4 assault charges laid then? We can agree on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And with respect to assaults with a weapon from that same time period, there was a total of one assault with a weapon charge laid, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And if we can scroll down -- or no, just back up, sorry. My apologies. Can you agree with me that in the entire same time period, there was no charges under the Criminal Code for causing a disturbance by fight or shouting or swearing?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And there was no charges laid against any of the protestors in that same time period for causing a disturbance by impeding or molesting a person?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And there were also no charges laid with disturbing an occupant of a dwelling, apartment, or complex, under the Criminal Code either, was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can we scroll down? Perfect. And can you agree with me in that time period, that is, from January 29th to February 13th at 11:59 p.m., there was no charges of inciting hatred in a public place ever laid, was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you can agree with me that in the same time period that only one charge of intimidation by threat of violence was ever laid?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we can -- last one, there was no charge either in that same time period for taking a weapon of a police officer in execution of his duty?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in that same time period, there was never any charges of uttering threats to property to damage -- or to damage property under 264(1) of the Criminal Code either, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So there's a total of five violent offences charged between January 28th, 2022 and February 13th, 2022; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So anything dealing with an assault or threatening to cause bodily harm or to kill someone. Those are -- there's five charges in relation to that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you'd agree with me that that’s not unprecedented violence, is it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so that’s the honking, right, as one of them?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The -- I believe the exhaust coming from trucks?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And we’ve already heard evidence that, as of February 7th, when Mr. Champ and his client, Zexi Li, obtained an injunction with respect to silencing those horns, things got better; do you agree?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s also the fact that the trucks that were blocking up downtown Ottawa in that area -- we’ve heard some evidence that there’s about 18,000 people; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what’s the entirety of the population of Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just over a million. So 18,000 residents were the ones being put through the “violence”, as you define it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And this is last document I want you to refer. I’ve given very short notice. It only became relevant because of questions my friend from the federal government asked. It’s PB.NSC.CAN.00003256_REL.0001. So if you could scroll down just to the second page, please. Thank you. So just so you know, this is -- and I’m not -- I know you haven’t seen this before but this is an email from Commissioner Brenda Lucki to the Chief of Staff for the Minister, Public Safety, and she has a discussion about her views on the invocation of the Emergencies Act there. I just want to read it to you, and you can read it as well. There, she states: "I’m of the view that we have not yet exhausted all available tools that are already available through existing legislation. There are instances where charges could be laid under existing authority for various Criminal Code offences occurring right now in the context of the protest. The Ontario Provincial Emergencies Act, just enacted, will also help in providing additional deterrent tools to our existing toolbox." Then she goes on: "These existing tools are considered in our existing plan and will be used in due course, as necessary." So you’ve had an opportunity to read that and hear it. And you also, I take it, heard the evidence from Supt. Morris regarding there being no credible threat under Section 2 of the CSIS Act; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Do you agree with me that Supt. Morris is the most senior intelligence officer in the provincial apparatus; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I just have one -- two last questions. Do you agree with what Commissioner Lucki said in the email I just read to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Do you agree with her perspective?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But -- last question, just because I just want to get this clear -- but -- so you’re saying that there was existing laws that you could have done the same thing under; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, sir. For the record, my name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which is the organization representing the protesters that were in Ottawa on January and February of 2022. I just have a few questions for you. And thank you for your service. So, if I may, I’m just going to refer to the documents that the Commission has already brought up earlier. If I could have brought up OPP00000151. So, sir, just to clarify for everybody here and the folks at home, this is the proposal, engagement proposal that was worked on between yourself, the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, and Commission Brenda Lucki of the RCMP; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And this engagement proposal was essentially approved by the Deputy Minister of Public Safety but, of course, it wasn’t his decision whether it was going to be carried it, but he approved it; is that fair.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But he never indicated to you that it was something that he thought was a bad idea?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he never indicated to you that anything but taking enforcement action was a bad idea?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Anything but taking enforcement action against the protesters in Ottawa was a bad idea; he didn’t say to you that you should cease engaging and that you should direct that there be enforcement actions taken?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Commissioner Lucki of the RCMP, she reviewed this proposal as well?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And she thought it was a good proposal?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And those issues, though, weren’t with respect to the engagement issue; it had nothing to do with that; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so in this proposal, of course, it says that upon an agreement to the proposal, you’d provide a police liaison and writing a commitment to government engagement at a later date, and that could be shared in a meeting with the protest leaders, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So the plan was, and the recommendation was, is that, essentially, the Government of Canada, the political branch of the Government of Canada, would agree to a meeting with the protesters but there would be certain conditions to that and they would have to denounce anything unlawful and get out of downtown Ottawa; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And in your interactions with the Deputy Minister and Commissioner Lucki after February 12th, 2022, did they tell you anything about what happened with this proposal?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Could we bring up another document that was referred to by the Commission? It’s OPP00000172. Now, I understand this is an email from the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Rob Stewart, to you, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And in the third sentence on the top paragraph, it says: "We have a big meeting this afternoon where this will be discussed, so I really need your input." (As read). Right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Did you know that that meeting was at 3:30 p.m. and that it was with Cabinet, and it was the Incident Response Group of the Political Executive meeting and that your proposal was provided to them?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. It was. I can tell you that. And then they invoked the Emergencies Act. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening. For the record, Brendan Miller. I am counsel for the Freedom Corp, which is representing the protesters that were in your city in January and February of 2022. So first, I want to talk to you about February 7th, 2022. And at that time, I take it, that OPS was well aware of who Tom Marazzo was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that in fact a PLT report was sent around about who are the key players and the leaders within the protesters; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And there was a list of whom PLT had identified as the leaders, and he was one of them; was that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in fact, in that list it said that Tom Marazzo had somewhat control over 322 trucks. Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Would you agree it was about 322 trucks?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. All right, so on February 7th, you have your PLT team engaging with Tom Marazzo; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And are you aware, and Tom Marazzo made this clear, that on February 7th he had lost confidence in your liaison officers in trying to deal with this?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Did your police liaison officers ever report to you that on February 7th Tom Marazzo specifically requested of both OPS and OPP that an inspector-level officer be made available for the negotiation to move the trucks, because he wasn’t getting anywhere with rank and file?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So the PLT officers that were working under you never reported that to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now I want to talk to about February 8th. Now, there was discussions. That was when the first discussions with respect to removing the concrete barriers, et cetera, and moving the trucks took place. It was the first attempt to clear Rideau and Sussex. Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And all of the concrete barriers, both in the residential area as well as on Wellington, they were all still in place at that time?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Tom had essentially -- Mr. Marazzo had met with these individuals from the City and from OPS to negotiate moving the trucks onto Wellington, but I understand it from your notes, et cetera, you knew at that time that was (audio skip).
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And at no time did you have authorization from the City -- not the OPS -- on February 8th, 2022, to move the barriers, did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So wouldn't it have made sense in trying to deal with this, to discuss with the City prior to meeting Mr. Marazzo that you're going to move these barriers to get these trucks out of the residential area and we're going to go into this negotiation with a plan? Wouldn't that have made more sense?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So -- and you're aware that Wellington is well within the City of Ottawa's jurisdiction? It doesn’t belong to Parliament?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So at any time, on February 8th, 2022, there was nothing stopping OPS and the City from moving the barriers, letting the trucks leave the residential area, and letting them go onto Wellington, was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you agree that there was nothing stopping you or the City or OPS from allowing that to happen on February 8th, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that may be the evidence. Where did you -- you didn’t ever hear from anyone from that group? You didn’t speak to them and they didn’t say to you that they didn’t want to move, did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And did they just go and tell you, someone approached you, you're saying, and said, "No, we're not moving"?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you knew from your PLT work that Tom Marazzo had apparent control of 322 trucks, and that was on February 7th. That’s in your own document.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so if you move the barriers and the deal went through as discussed on February 8, right, it could have been done?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Approval?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what -- whose approval did you need?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Supt. Patterson. So you're saying that Supt. Patterson didn’t permit the February 8th, 2022 deal?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you said you didn’t have approval.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Whose approval again? Was it Patterson?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Event Commander? So you're saying that Patterson's approval was required in order to move the barriers?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, with respect to the February 14th agreement, if I can just have you direct your mind to that, that’s the deal with the mayor on Monday morning?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So Mayor Watson and the City Manager, Steve K., they testified already in this proceeding that senior OPS officials were tasked to be on the ground to help facilitate the movements of trucks on February 14th. You heard that testimony, I take it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Can you agree that you are the OPS official that the mayor and the city manager were referring to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you weren’t on the ground and you weren’t attempting to carry out the move that was agreed to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and then it stopped?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay. At any time during the February 14th move did Tom Marazzo or any of the leaders you identified in your PLT report from February 7th say to you, "We're going to renege"? They didn’t, did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So which groups?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But again, we're dealing with -- you were dealing with Tom Marazzo?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Bank Street wasn’t in those 322 trucks, was it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But they were trying to do it, and we've already seen evidence of this, and the barriers weren’t being moved so they could. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- they were cut off. Pardon me, sir?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you're saying that the trucks that agreed to move and go onto Wellington, you pulled up the barriers and allowed each and every one of them out of where they were and onto Wellington, and that you didn’t stop anyone?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Commissioner.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name's Brendan Miller, and I am counsel to Freedom Corp, which is an entity that's representing the protesters and truckers that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. First, thank you for your service, and it's nice to meet you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So to begin, I understand -- I'm just going to go through some of your background. I understand you have a Masters in Leadership from Royal Roads University with a focus on justice and public safety; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you also have a Certificate in Terrorism Studies from St. Andrews University in Scotland; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you've been in policing since 1990.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So 32 years of experience -- -
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and an education in that area to boot; right? So you testified that you heard the evidence of Superintendent Morris.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you said that he's, in your Chief, the foremost authority in the Province of Ontario regarding Intelligence. Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you agree with his testimonies and opinions he gave? I take it that’s correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I’m sure you might have heard the answers he gave to the questions I put to him with respect to threats under section 2 of the CSIS Act. Do you remember hearing that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Well he testified, essentially, in summary, that there was no intelligence of a credible threat under section 2 of the CSIS Act. Would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was no credible intelligence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it’s fair to say that based on all OPP intelligence and the intelligence provided by the RCMP and federal intelligence agencies to the OPP, to your knowledge, there was no credible threat to the security of Canada as defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And I’m sure you’re aware that to invoke the Emergencies Act, that sort of threat is supposed to be required?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And in my next question, when I say federal civil service or federal civil servant, I just want you to understand that I mean anyone from Deputy Minister down who is a non-elected, non-political actor working for the Government of Canada. Is that understood?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, in your interactions with the members of the federal civil service prior to 11:59 p.m. on February 13th, 2022, isn’t it true that no civil servant ever said to you that there was a credible threat of the nature of that defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And they never said to you that they had reasonable grounds to believe that such a threat existed; did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. So I want to talk with you about -- everyone’s given various catchphrases to what was happening in Ottawa, but no one has really gone through what is a protest or, you know, essentially a lawful demonstration, et cetera, and you seem to have an understanding of that. so I’m going to walk through that with you, if that’s okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you agree that in general protest law and sort of criminal offences, that you essentially have three types? You have your lawful protest protected under section 2(b) and 2 -- all section 2, really of the Charter?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And then you have unlawful assembly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then you have riot?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So those are really the three sort of categories of these assemblies? Is that fair? Demonstrations.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So I just want to start with lawful protest. And you touched on that. And lawful protest, as you said, is protected by the Charter, and that’s primarily section 2. And can you agree that the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of association, they collectively, essentially, protect people’s right to assemble and protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And people are entitled to gather in groups in public spaces and protest government action as long as they don’t, essentially, move into an unlawful assembly; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they can get together in large numbers, go outside parliament, and protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But they can go in public spaces?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then unlawful assembly, police have the power, under section 63 of the Criminal Code to arrest and charge people for the offence of unlawful assembly; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you don’t need any form of special order for that? That can just be carried out by a police officer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that you’re aware that an unlawful assembly is where three or more people with a common purpose assemble in such a manner and conduct themselves to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Sorry. I’m now fast Brendan. I thought I was slow Brendan after hearing my friend. But I will try to get on to that. So it’s when they assemble in such a manner that conduct themselves to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly to fear, on reasonable grounds, that they will disturb the peace tumultuously, or needlessly cause or provoke other persons to disturb the peace tumultuously. You’re aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you’re aware that to disturb the peace tumultuously requires there to be more than a boisterous or noisy disorderly conduct? It has to be something a little more?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know that causing an actual disturbance to the peace tumultuously actually isn’t required to even arrest people for unlawful assembly, it just has to be that there’s a reasonable fear that it’s going to happen. That’s what really differentiates it from a riot; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that an unlawful assembly, you know -- a lawful assembly can, at times, of course, become an unlawful assembly when it becomes unruly and gets into the riot category; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I understand, and you probably understand, that a riot, in order to get into a riot under the law, it requires actual or threatened force or violence in addition to, you know, the public disorder; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And even without this, if you don’t even get to that threshold, you’re aware, and we’ve heard about the Riot Act and the Criminal Code that a mayor, sheriff, or a Justice of the Peace, or a Justice of the Ontario Court of Justice can come out and read the Riot Act and invoke it and demand people disperse?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then of course, outside of all of this, you have injunctions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And any individual, or the City, can run off and make an application for an injunction before a court of confident jurisdiction, and if they meet the test, the Court can grant an injunction. And then once that injunction is granted, if it’s not followed, the police then have jurisdiction under section 127 of the Criminal Code to charge individuals with violating a court order?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So those are the general things that exist outside of the Emergencies Act; right? They’re there always?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I now want to talk to you about Ottawa in particular, now that we’ve gone over that. Now, regarding the truckers and the protestors in Ottawa, I understand they rolled in here and did so at the direction of police officers. Once they arrived. Not, of course, didn’t -- they weren’t invited. But when they arrived here on January 27th and 28th, is it your understanding that they parked where they were told to originally and everything was essentially coordinated originally about where they were going to go?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And we can agree then that, you know, parking on streets and highways in a way that would usually violate the law, right, where they’re essentially blocking everything, that could be considered an unlawful assembly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it though that you’re familiar with the Doctrine of Officially Induced Error, where the government official tells you to do something that may be illegal, but because they tell you to do it, you don’t believe it to be? You’re familiar with that from your studies?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Doctrine of Officially Induced Error, where a government official tells you to do something that may in fact not be legal, but you do it because the government official tells you to, and therefore you believe that it is legal, because they told you to do it. are you familiar with that Doctrine?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s okay. Now, you do know that after these vehicles arrived in the city, that there was construction equipment, as well as, eventually, I believe the following day, cement barriers put up so that no one could come in, but no one could also go out? You’re aware of that? The vehicles.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you can agree with me that if there’s barriers on both sides of a road where individuals have parked their trucks, the truck can’t drive through the barrier, it can’t drive over it, it can’t really drive around it? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. If I could bring up Document SSM.NSC.CAN.00000209_REL.0001. It’s the Incident Response Group Minutes from February 10th, 2022. Okay. And could we just scroll down to page 5 there, please, and zoom in on the first paragraph? Scroll down please. Perfect. Okay. So I just want to take you to the fifth line there. I'm just going to read it out to you. And this is Commissioner Luckie's sort of summary to them on February 10th. And she says: "The RCMP Commissioner added that the engagement continues with the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Provincial -- or the Ottawa Police Service. The RCMP has provided all resources requested by OPS. OPP resources have also been provided and there is good consideration, good cooperation between the OPP and RCMP. There are indications that some of the protestors would like to leave but are unable to do so, given physical barriers. An integrated planning cell is developing a plan of action and the preference remains to continue moving forward with negotiations with enforcement actions to start early next week if negotiations remain unsuccessful. A surge and contain strategy will be employed for the upcoming weekend." Does that summary as of February 10th, 2022, is that summary accurate of where things were at with OPP and your understanding of everything?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I'm going to first -- there's two aspects in there I want to discuss with you. The first is enforcement. So on February 10th, 2022, in those minutes, it says -- and this is, of course, before the Emergencies Act was invoked -- it says that enforcement was going to start on Monday, February 14th, 2022 if negotiations did not work, right? That was going to happen anyway?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And as you already said, that could have all been done without the invocations of the Emergencies Act, much like Commissioner Luckie of the RCMP said in that email that you agreed with earlier?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And now I want to talk to you about the issue with the barriers, and we'll sort of address that. Now, that summary there you said is -- there's physical barriers preventing people from leaving, whether it be put there by the City or whether it be other trucks. That’s a fact. Like, people couldn't go and take their trucks and leave?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So once the concrete barriers went up and people were stuck, they're stuck there, they can't move their trucks. They can physically walk away, but they'd have to leave it there and go away, fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, prior to these barriers being put up and prior to not being able to leave -- and you're not going to hear me argue otherwise -- those trucks are an unlawful assembly, but once a government entity like the City of Ottawa and everything is all stuck and they can't move, can you agree that those individuals and those trucks that were struck there -- and I know this is not a question of law -- but is it something that you would charge them with, in your opinion, when they can't actually leave? Are they assembled, you know, intentionally? Are they -- someone there that they would have grounds to lay a charge where these individuals who the only reason they're unlawfully assembled is that these trucks are stuck, but it's not their fault? So would you agree that once the barriers went up, and once these individuals' vehicles were stuck, that there was no unlawful assembly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I can tell you, already in evidence, is the charges that were laid. And would you be interested to know that there's not a single charge of unlawful assembly that was laid in this case, in all of Ottawa during the protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So the ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I will. So just on the issue with Inspector Beaudin, if I could just scroll down to page 7 of the document on the screen, page 7 and the top -- I'm looking for the bottom of page 7 -- no, sorry -- bottom of page 6, top of page 7. Okay. So here, this document is again, the same one from before, but this is the actual plan that Inspector Beaudin had approved and you approved with the PLTs. It was actually put to Cabinet; did you know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But is it fair to say -- of course, no one knew it went to Cabinet, and I understand that -- but is it fair to say that the plan that Beaudin drafted, you supported that plan as an action plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And were you aware that Commissioner Luckie also supported that plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the deputy minister, of course, he had input into the plan. It was his final approved plan that he put before Cabinet, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you agree with me that when it comes to law enforcement in this province and with the federal apparatus that the three most senior individuals in law enforcement would be yourself, Commissioner Luckie, and the deputy minister Rob Stewart with respect to individuals in the civil service; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I mean provincial.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But for -- in the provincial apparatus, you are the most senior law enforcement individual in the province; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then Commissioner Luckie is that for the RCMP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the deputy minister, of course, is the highest civil servant in public safety that sort of oversees and looks at for the political branch and manages those sort of areas; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir. For the record my name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel to Freedom Corp., which is an entity that represents the protesters that were in your city in January and February of 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And, first, thank you for your service, and I’m sorry for all the things you’ve had to go through since everything that’s happened to you; it doesn’t seem fair to me. But I just want to get in to asking you some questions about some of the things you gave evidence about. I read the transcript, though I wasn’t here on Friday. But you described the issue with respect to the protesters as, “Assaultive behaviour,” and I just want to clarify; by that I take it you don’t mean actual physical assaults under the Criminal Code; do you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And it’s fair to say, though, that though the OPS wasn’t enforcing things for broken windows or anything like that? That of course if there was a physical assault in downtown Ottawa, no matter that the protesters were there, that incident would be investigated and charges would be laid, where appropriate, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Nobody from the OPS held off and wasn’t enforcing the Criminal Code; they still were doing it in full force and effect; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And would it surprise you to know -- it’s already in evidence -- that in the time period between the start of the protest and when the invocation of the Emergencies Act came about, there was a total of five charges for assault in total?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. So the second thing I want to talk to you about is the barricades that went up when the protest arrived, and I just want to get some clarification on that from you. I understand that the City put up the cement barricades, or whatever; they have a term for the type of barricade. But they put up cement barricades where the vehicles were parked, basically in the first few days, and that those barricades essentially would prevent any other vehicles from getting in to where they were parked on the roadways, or from leaving; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, Because this Commission has already heard some evidence, and even from the Instant Response Group reports, that individual protesters with vehicles were wanting to leave but couldn’t because they were barricaded in. Did you hear about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As I understand it, they weren’t. And there is going to be evidence from our clients that that was a problem; they would ask to leave and they wouldn’t remove the barricades. Did you hear anything about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you very much for that. And already in evidence is that on January 30th, 2022 you requested of Steven K. at the City of Ottawa to obtain an injunction. You recall asking for that; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
January 30th, 2022. It was a phone call and then a follow-up email.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And do you remember -- I can put it up in front of you if you like, it’s just a bit bothersome; I’m hoping not to do it. Do you remember following up with him with an email just reciting your call and what you asked him, and he was then going to get back to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I don’t need to put it up. But after you had that call, I take it that you had some ideas for the terms of what the injunction would look like if it was obtained; and you told him those things, I take it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you then also provided Mr. K. that legal counsel -- the internal legal counsel for OPS would assist with whatever evidence and whatever support they needed to obtain the injunction; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And as a very senior police officer, you’re aware that once you obtain an injunction its terms can be enforced via the Criminal Code, under section 127, if people don’t follow its terms, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But it’s fair to say that if an injunction was obtained, it would add another tool to the toolbox for enforcement purposes; fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And in your testimony last week, I take it that you agreed that the evidence of Insp. Beaudin with respect to crowd dynamics; do you remember saying that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But in his evidence, and I think you were in agreement with this. Inspector Beaudin talked about what has been referred to as the 80/20 rule. Do you remember hearing that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And just to reiterate that, it's presumed that 80 percent of a crowd in a protest are law abiding; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then the other 15 percent are what I would call on the fence. They could go either way. Maybe they're influenced, but there's that 15 percent factor?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And then five percent are the troublemakers. That's how he summarized it. So would you agree that that's sort of the general rule with crowd dynamics?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So if an injunction was obtained, I take it, I know you were just spit-balling ideas at the time, but I take it that two of the terms for that, the major terms would have, of course, been that the trucks that were blocking roadways due to where they were parked would be removed; would that be fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If an injunction was to be obtained, I take it that you would have been looking for two important points, and the first I'd put to you is that the trucks that were blocking roadways due to where they were parked would be removed; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And of course, the OPS simply cannot go out and get an injunction themselves either; can they? They City does -- police officers -- Police Services don't apply for injunctions. That's not happened.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it's fair to say that you were relying upon the City of Ottawa to obtain an injunction if one was going to be obtained?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Now I take it though, if the City did go out and obtain an injunction, if the 80 percent rule was applied and that injunction was served on protesters, it's fair to say that some of them would have left after being served the injunction; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. And so what I'd like to bring up now is OPS document OPS00004927, please? So these are the typed notes, and we went through some of the handwritten ones of somebody called CH previously, but these are the typed notes of your meeting with Brenda Lucki as well as Commissioner Carrique from the OPP. So if you could just take a minute, I'm sure you've seen these, PS is you; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you want to just review that for a minute?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You can scroll -- yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. So and what I want to chat with you about is the points that say four ops. And there's five points there, but one's just commentary on the other four. And so the four ops, which I will call the four- pronged approach that you had pitched was, "Ongoing public order management Planning for long[...]-term occupation Police-led intervention to arrest to bring to an end [and] Seek an injunction at all levels because of all 3 levels of land involved" So that's a multi-pronged, multi-tactic approach that would be very common in policing; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct, yeah. So it's a multi-facet approach because you, you know, don't use a sledgehammer to squash a mosquito, but you want to have all your tools that you can in place to use them as appropriate.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So an injunction on -- when you had this conversation on January 31st was something that was part of those four ops?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay. Now if we could scroll down, please? And I take it BL here, that's Commissioner Brenda Lucki; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I give you a second to review those points.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And so is that - - those points, first, are those accurate from what you recall from that conversation and what she said?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so here, she had told you, and then I believe Commissioner Carrique somewhat backed her up, but he was more on the fence, that she didn't think an injunction was a good idea?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it's fair to say that, at this point, this is the first time someone has told you not to go the injunction route; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But even after this meeting, I haven't seen anything in the records that you ever changed your advice or anything to the City. You still were in support of them getting an injunction if they wanted to do so but it was up to them.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I then want to take you to another document, if I can. It's the one that my friends have been referring to. If I may, just a second. And that would be OPS00014454. It's the long set of notes, and I'd like to go to page 24 of those notes. So just for my understanding too, sir, these notes in the disclosure package, they say that they're from somebody called CH. Do you know who that is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. And so she is the general counsel to the OPS?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So if we can scroll down? So these are from February 2nd and it's a meeting that all of you had. And there it says, "Steve K had a meeting with the federal government today." And at the bottom it says, "Not likely an injunction." So from your recollection of that meeting, did Steve K. tell you that the Feds told him not to get an injunction, or whoever was representing Steve K. at this meeting?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So do you remember -- can we scroll up too, just so you can see the date and who was there? So it doesn't look like Steve Bell was present.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And do you know who was making the statements with respect to Steve Bell's meetings with the Feds that are points one, two, three and four; do you recall?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Or Steve -- my apologies, so many names. So Steve K. had told you at another point in time before this meeting that he was not likely going to go the injunction route?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. All right. So outside of injunction I just want to talk to you about sort of protests generally and how they work, and I'm not going to be asking you questions a lot, this isn't an exam, but I just went through this with Commissioner Carrique and I think it's important to go through you as well. Can you agree that in sort of general protest law and enforcement and criminal offences regarding the same, you basically have three types: You have lawful protests, which is protected under the Charter; then you have unlawful assembly, and then you have a riot. Do you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you're aware, of course, with protests that when they cross the Rubicon between lawful protests and unlawful protests it becomes a criminal matter under section 63 of the Criminal Code.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And -- so with that, is it fair to say that the OPS and your office at no time prior to the declaration issued any form of formal notice to the protesters that they had been deemed to be an unlawful assembly and they must disperse?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So at no time that didn't happen?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you're aware also of the riot provisions in the Criminal Code for the Riot Act ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- because that was discussed? Right. And so that requires that even if a general riot isn't happening, as recognised in law without the declaration, and if a sheriff, a mayor or a justice of the peace or judge of the Ontario Court of Justice, goes out, says this set of words that end in "God save the Queen", or now "God save the King", and it's then deemed an illegal gathering and people ordered to disperse. You agree that's what that does?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Exactly.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so there was never a declaration, of course, this is a riot, and there was no formal declaration that there was an unlawful assembly; and therefore, the protesters who were there, who were sitting there, no on in authority, it's fair to say, told them that they were doing any illegal. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so that brings me interestingly enough to my next area. And I heard your evidence or read your evidence about misinformation, and it's fair to say that on social media, and particularly, and even in the news, there was a whole bunch of misinformation about the protesters. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So for example, there was reports in the news that there was an arson committed by the protesters, and I understand that was investigated and it turned out that wasn't true.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And there ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And with the misinformation, did you have any idea about how the misinformation about the protests started? Did you do any analysis with your Intelligence Bureau on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, I want to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So I want to bring up a document. I gave notice of this earlier today, and I don't know if the feds are going to object, but I wouldn't be surprised. If I could bring up document SSM.CAN.00007722_REL.0001. All right, so what this is sir, this is a text message from a fellow by the name of Alexander Cohen. Are you familiar with him?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. He's with the -- he's with Minister Marciano's [sic] office, the Minister of Public Safety, and it's between him and Mary-Liz Power. Are you familiar with Mary-Liz Power?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. She's with the Prime Minister's Office. So I'm just going to read that to you for you so you have an understanding. And this is from about the 24th, on or before the 24th of January, and it says: "[I] [g]ot a quick response, people are into it. [Let me know] if your boss is too. Happy to help however I can! This is what I sent through, [though, by the way]: 'Hi, I just had a chat with Alex at PS...'" Meaning Public Safety: "'...who had a bit of an interesting idea. As you saw in the pod goals chat, the truckers convoy and some of their more extreme comments (IE calling for a Jan 6 style insurrection) are getting more coverage in [the] media. Alex was surveying whether there'd be interest in his boss doing some media on this eventually. He was chatting with Mendicino about it right before he went into the cabinet retreat.'" Now, I can tell you the cabinet retreat was on the 24th, that's how I know it was before the 24th: "'I think there could be an opportunity to get in on this growing narrative of the truckers, particularly with the research that LRB is doing into their backers. My thoughts of the framing here would be similar to what PM/Blair...'" Meaning the Prime Minister and Minister Blair: "'...said last year when Jan 6th occurred:...'" And the first thing is" "'Our democracy is something we need to nurture and protect every day.'" Now, that text message then continues. And I'd ask Mr. Clerk if you could bring up SSM.CAN.00007722_REL.0001.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry, 2716. No, I apologise. Hold on. Well, I've got the name of it wrong. I think I got the wrong number. I emailed it to you earlier if you could open it up. It's Text Message To. It just says Text To.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We can see if that works. I'll let you know if it's the right one.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. It's not. I can forward it to you again here. I just sent it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
True.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right, so this is the continuation, and it's what's sort of the lines are going to be in: "We will always support the right of peaceful protest. Some of the calls that organizers of these events are making are concerning and we're taking them seriously (would need something to back this up). Will continue to monitor the situation closely. The fine line to walk would be to ensure we are not looking like we're directing the police, which obviously is not the goal here. Hoping to canvass your thoughts - Alex said he’d come back to me with a proposal this afternoon when he gets to chat with Mendicino again and obviously pending his boss’s and our interest in looking into this further." And if you could scroll down. And Alex responds: “Thanks. I had an initial chat with my boss and he’s supportive, but wants to wait a day or two. There’s a danger that if we come down too hard they might push out the crazies.” And the response: “I think that’s fair. Apparently Global and others are working on stories. Maybe see how those land.” So when I show you this, and I -- after this, the exact same sort of narrative came out from the federal government following these suggestions from their staff. Is that misinformation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay. Well, then, just moving on to a last area I’d like to question you about, and this is sort of on the fly. I sat here and listened to the evidence with respect to the notes that Deputy Chief Ferguson took, and all of those notes were about you. Now, I’ve only been doing this for 12 years, but I’ve never seen anything like that with officers keeping notes on one another. Can you explain to me how odd that is or can you -- would you like to elaborate on that? Because to me, officers keep notes on an investigation. They don’t keep notes on their Chief and they don’t keep notes on their colleagues. It’s for investigative purposes. Do you -- do you have any concern with what happened there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Anything else?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And would you agree that it’s in policing training that officers are taught to make notes and whatever they write is, you know, for court or for proceedings, typically, and it goes and it’s used. If you don’t have something in your notes, it goes against your credibility and if you do, it supports your credibility. You’re probably familiar with that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you’d agree just because someone writes something in their notes doesn’t mean it’s true, does it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sometimes they’re not.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir. For the record, Brendan Miller, counsel for Freedom Corp. As I believe you already know, we've made invocations under all Evidence Act provisions, both federally and provincially, as well as section 13 of the Charter. That's been done in writing. I wonder if I have to do that each and every time the witness testifies or if the Commission has accepted written invocation I have already provided, sir?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, sir. That's all. That's my statement.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Commissioner, I understand my friend's out of time and this witness has testified several times he has no knowledge of these things, so I'm wondering what the purpose of this is other than grandstanding.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Barber.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How are you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for the Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters, including yourself, that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Good morning. How are you feeling?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, first question, if at any time during the protest and the demonstration if the City of Ottawa or the Ottawa Police Service provided you, the truckers and the protesters, an order from the court saying that you had to leave or move your trucks out of downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And I understand you’ve -- and we’ve discussions, and you’ve had discussions with legal counsel. You understand what invoking the Riot Act now mean, do you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And so if a mayor, sheriff, or justice invoked the Riot Act and ordered that you and the protesters and the trucks left downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it’s fair to say, as Chief Sloly testified, at no time did any police officer or city official come and tell the protesters that they were illegally parked and illegally, unlawfully protesting and had to leave; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So my friend asked you about the Memorandum of Understanding drafted by a Mr. James Bauder and his Canada Unity organization. I have a few questions about that. So these Canada Unity folks, to your knowledge, how many of them were in Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So how many Canada Unity folks did you interact with that you knew were representing him?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you observe Mr. Bauder or anyone else that may have been with Canada Unity to be violent, commit any violent acts?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you hear of any of these Canada Unity members act in a violent way or try to incite violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you hear any of these Canada Unity members state they wanted to overthrow of Government of Canada by violent means?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it that you asked your lawyers in Ottawa at the time, being Keith Wilson and Eva Chipiuk, about this Memorandum of Understanding from Canada Unity; isn’t that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you remember the lawyers describing it as “legal nonsense”?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I also understand, of course, you’ve had some interactions with Mr. Pat King and, as well, some of his followers. How many followers did Mr. King have?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, no, I mean physically in Ottawa.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How would you -- “few” is a bit of a weasel word. Do you mind if I -- you can clarify? What number would you estimate?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you observe Pat King or any of his followers carry out any acts of violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you hear Pat King or any of his followers incite protesters in Ottawa to commit acts of violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Pat King or any of his followers ever state to you that they’re going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what about this Jeremy MacKenzie fellow; did you ever hear of him seeking that protesters act violently or incite people to commit violent acts?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Jeremy MacKenzie or any of his followers or veterans that you know of say that they were going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And lastly, of course, Ms. Tamara Lich, how’s your relationship with Ms. Lich?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I take it that -- how tall is Ms. Lich?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, she’s about a midget. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But she’s -- I take it she’s still a very scary lady; is she not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, yeah, of course, like Napoleon.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. So she’s the Napoleon of truckers; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, did the Napoleon of truckers, Mr. Lich, did she ever say to you that she intended to carry out an act of violence while she was in Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and she -- I take it she also -- you never saw her assault anyone or commit any violent acts?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it she never said to you that she was here in Ottawa to violently take over the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, my friends asked you some questions about what I refer to as collusion with some of the other protests that were outside of Ottawa, right? So you had the big ones. You had Coutts, Windsor, as well as the ones in Manitoba, and another one in Surrey. To your knowledge, did any of the truckers or protesters at all, in all of Ottawa, to your knowledge, have any coordination whatsoever in setting up these other protests outside of Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you heard the evidence from Chief Sloly as well as Commissioner Carrique, they speculated that it was possible that the one protest in Windsor was coordinated with Ottawa just based on the geographical distance between the two and the splitting of resources; do you have any comment on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that’s a fine admission. Now, if -- Mr. Register, if you wouldn’t mind putting up document HRF00000052, it’s the one that Canada, for the Attorney General, put to my client earlier. Now, did you have a chance to review this document before the questions that were asked of you of the Attorney General today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can we just give you a quick moment to do that? And so, Mr. Register, if you could scroll down there. So there, and just for summary for the folks at home, you have a heading with Ottawa weather, inspiration thoughts for the day, a video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum, a CTV poll on the Emergencies Act which states that 81 percent of people disapprove of it, financial supporters. Scrolling down, Quebec drops mandates, feds scrap pre-arrival PCR tests, British Columbia drops capacity limits, bank run, crypto bank, the picture of Madam Deputy Prime Minister, another Albertan, and daily humour?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you see anything invoking violence in that document?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you know of any of the documents that are like that, the daily briefings that ask for violence or sought violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I'd like to bring up, if I may, Mr. Registrar, the other document that Canada put up which is HRF00000083. Okay. And you were -- it had -- well, it was put to you the video of Mr. King, Pat King, was put to you with respect to the bullets comments, and this was the media release, I take it, that was released in response to that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Do you want to have a read?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it -- do you agree with those statements there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. And I also understand that with respect to the daily security briefings, the one that we looked at earlier, you weren’t involved in drafting any of these?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you didn’t review any of them before they were sent out?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, with respect to the mandates -- and I just want to touch on that briefly -- can you tell the Commission about how the mandates impacted your children, other than what you already have with respect to your daughter's clarinet story?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what else? Anything else, other than what you've already said?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I want to move on from that and talk about some of the moving of the trucks. I understand at some point in the protest in Ottawa, you moved your trucks from Wellington -- or your truck out of the city to a (audio skip) camp?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When was that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And is it true that when you were trying to leave downtown Ottawa that the police roadblocks made it very hard for you to leave?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So can you describe for the Commission your initial moving your truck and trying to get out of downtown Ottawa and just sort of walk us through on a timeline?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And how did you get past the barricades and the blockades?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And to your knowledge, was there any incidents of any of the truckers and protestors trying to leave but could not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I mean is, with respect to moving the police barricades.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sounds good. And with respect to you walking the streets during the protest, what did you see?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is there anything notable, do you remember, of who you spoke to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you tell us about the efforts to move the trucks on Monday, February 14th?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So at that point in time, the police blockaded you in ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- from leaving?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Even though you were trying to leave?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So from where the trucks were parked, did the police move the barricades to allow you out?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you were up at Wellington at that time, and you went down when the trucks were trying to get out?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand during that time, that you were able to get approximately 100 trucks and protest vehicles to leave downtown residential areas, which included 40 semi trucks, of which 23 went up to Wellington; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were aware that the vehicles that left downtown and did not go up to Wellington, they were either went home or they went out to a base camp in Arnprior or Embrun; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you had cleared out two blocks on Albert Street and from some other streets; is that about right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So okay. Not a problem. So can you tell me about then how many trucks do you believe were moved in total?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And while you were involved in the protest and in Ottawa, did you attend any businesses in (audio skip)?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And during that time period, what was your relationship like with those business establishments, their staff, and owners, during the protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Want to -- a little bit about it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did any of the business owners approach you before the end of the protest about anything they wanted to say to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you've seen throughout this proceeding witnesses discuss views on assaultive or threatening behaviour and what that means. You've seen that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I understand that you heard a statement from the Prime Minister where he called unvaccinated Canadians racists, misogynists, and asked "should we tolerate these people?" Do you remember hearing that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What's your perception of that? Would you say, in your opinion, is that assaultive or threatening ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood. What was your perception of that statement?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And have you experienced assaultive and threatening words and behaviour from other politicians or others?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re going to try this, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m just going to say “no questions” in French. Pas de questions, merci.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I am going to ask under -- I can't recall the rule -- but with respect to the order of examination, as we got the documents from this particular witness, several hundred of them, not until this afternoon, I do have concerns from the brief ones I have reviewed, and I have given a written objection to your counsel with respect to those. What I would like to do in the meantime, sir, is I would like your leave and approval to examine this witness following her paralegal examining her. I can tell you, at this point, I don’t have many questions for this witness at all. My concern is the beginning of a character assassination as well as attacking my client, the corporation itself. And given what was just asked by the Government of Canada and what was just said, I would like to sit back and see what the evidence is with respect to the character assassination evidence that I think this witness is intending to give, before I do my examination, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure. I’m going to rise at this point. All of this happened after the fact, well after the events in question and there is actually, as I understand, also potentially privileged records in here. I would like to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No questions, sir, for the Freedom Corp.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. I don’t think the issue is whether or not Ms. Belton's being impeached. Frankly, I don’t think it matters. So this Commission doesn’t need to make a finding of credibility of Ms. Belton, so I understand my friend's concern and he's turning to the rule of Browne v Dunn, but I don’t really even think it's a concern, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m going to have to object at this time. My friend is entirely mischaracterizing the Law of Section 2(b) of the Charter and the decisions in respect to that. In fact, the Supreme Court of Canada, of course, has held that hate speech, other than inciting violence, is actually protected by Section 2(b) of the Charter. And so I would ask that my friend, essentially, cease putting errors of law to the witness on public television, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We have no questions, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Dichter, Brendan Miller, I’m counsel for Freedom Corp.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So just a couple of things. I want to get some things clarified here. You haven’t been very clear the dates about when things happened, so I want to get that hammered down; is that okay?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. I understand, on February 4th, 2022, or maybe it was the 3rd, you were in a car accident out in Kingston, you ended up in a ditch; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so you were in Kingston and then, I take it, you got in back to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Kemptville, sorry -- in Kemptville and then you got back to Ottawa the evening of February 4th; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February 3rd.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then was it the 3rd or the 4th where you broke your leg?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 4th, so February 4th. And after you broke your leg, I take it you were in the hospital for a brief period of time or were you ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, so February 5th, you get out of the hospital.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, the morning of February 5th. So you get out of the hospital and your leg is broken. I understand it was a pretty bad break, eh?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It still hurts, right. And so said just now you were on a bunch of medication; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And what was that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it, then, after that, you would have still been on some form of paid medication, would you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so after that time, so after February 4th, you’re pretty restricted mobile-wise. You stayed in your -- essentially in your hotel room for most of the time, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you weren’t out on the street talking to anybody or anything like that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, okay. But other than that, you were pretty much confined to your room; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you weren’t a road captain, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so it’s fair to say that from February 4th onward, you weren’t really on the street talking physically in their presence to any of the truckers, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So this person you were saying was keeping you up to date other than Tamara, you said you had somebody in communications working with you. Who was that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. And you had said in your evidence in-chief that Ms. Lich was constantly coming to your room every day and that was happening on time?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it that frequency of seeing her, it declined after February 7th; would you agree?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not saying that you didn’t see her; I'm saying the frequency that you would see her from February 7th on declined. Would you agree?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you know that basically everyone other than yourself and Chris Barber had checked our of the Sheridan on February 7th, 2023 [sic] and were staying at the Swiss?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you can agree then that Ms. Lich wasn’t staying in the same hotel as you from February 7th onward? Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But all of these folks, they had to basically come and see you because you were confined to your room.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I want to take you to February 11th, 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You knew about that meeting that was taking place between the members of the Board and Dean French and the mayor, or through the mayor. You knew about that on that day.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You're saying you didn’t know about it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So there was a Board meeting that you couldn’t attend around that time. You attended by phone conference because you were in your room; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t? Well, they had a meeting. You were in attendance according to our records. And this was all discussed.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You called in. Everyone else was there physically; it was at the Swiss.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you called in.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t remember?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that’s going to be testified to so I have to be fair to you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so all of this was discussed before the deal that was discussed with the mayor. Everybody knew about it and you're saying you didn’t.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Let me ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the Board, the majority of the Board didn’t agree with you, fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were eventually removed from this Board? Is this correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, because you ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I'm going to get into that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And some of the animosity that arose was that the Board had voted to do all these things, enter into these agreements. Then you broke into or went into Ms. Lich’s Tweeter or Tweet account, or whatever they’re called.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, you went into it and pretending to be her ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you posted something that you knew was a lie.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You knew that they had done this deal. You knew ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you're saying before you went in to her account, representing to the public at large ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So no one ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- on the Board and no one else told you to do that. You did that on your own initiative.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I’m not asking about that. I'm asking about the ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. I would like you to answer ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. That’s nice. And so that gave you the prerogative to go on to her Twitter and make something up and say that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll move on. So after this deal goes through and some of the trucks did get moved -- are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you did get that email with the comms essentially sheet that was supposed to go out to all the truckers about the deal. You did get that and we’ve seen it up there and you replied, “Looks good.”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So what was your expectation? Did you believe that the City of Ottawa was going to enter into a contract?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so again, you're communicating. The truckers are reaching out to you. And who were these truckers reaching out to you that were concerned?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But nobody from the Board, from the Board that you were on?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so let’s talk about this. So you had said in your evidence that after the police started taking enforcement action ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- that a bunch of people came to talk to you because Tamara had been arrested, Chris Barber had been arrested. And they asked, “What should we do?” And you said, “Leave. You need to leave.”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so the deal that that was being negotiated that I understand you say you didn’t know about it, but the deal there was to get the same sort of thing done but to move the trucks without any violence, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To get them out of the residential areas.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you were not happy with Mr. Wilson and Ms. Chipiuk and the folks doing the negotiation to try and end things peacefully, but you’re okay with telling everybody to leave once violence has started? That’s what you would rather have done?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you’re on a board. Do you understand how that works?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the Board ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that, but the Board gave him instructions. It’s not just what you want.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I also understand again that you were making the decisions about what media outlets that you would communicate through? Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. So but you specifically mentioned here today Russian Today.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand that my clients had no input into you communicating with Russian Today, you just did that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’re familiar that Russian Today is essentially a Russian propaganda outfit? You’re aware of that?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you went to a Russian propaganda outfit, ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- in order to portray what you believed was the message that you wanted to portray?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you went to Russian Today on your own accord, which you know is a Russian propaganda outfit, and thought that that would be a good communication strategy?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you weren’t instructed to do that? That was just on your own initiative?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But never specifically contacting a Russian propaganda outfit ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. First, my friend is getting into something that may in fact be privileged, and the board has not waived that privilege as a whole. Second, I don’t understand what the relevance and materiality of any of this is as to whether or not the Emergencies Act should have been invoked.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, this witness is being asked to interpret a document not authored by him and give his opinion of it and I don’t again see how any of this is relevant.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We don’t have context. I don’t even know what he’s referring to, sir. And I don’t ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Commissioner, I don’t understand this and I would note that my friend has just put up evidence proving that this individual knew about the deal. But other than that, I don’t think it’s appropriate for him to comment on “Trudeau is going to be pissed” -- and his view of what is appropriate language and what is not. I don’t want to get into the case law about what that is and how lawyers are allowed to communicate. And I don’t need to, I don’t think, the Goya decision, et cetera. But sir, this is not relevant.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, my Bauder. My name’s Brendan Miller and I’m counsel to the Freedom Corp, which is an organization that represented the protesters that were here in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. I am the lesser better-looking Brendan of the lawyers.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sure.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I want to first discuss with you again -- you’ve mentioned, and it has been put in evidence, this Memorandum of Understanding; right?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I take it, that was just basically a piece of paper; fair?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And therein, and nothing that I’ve seen at least, Canada Unity has never called for any form of violence?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you never called to violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You never offered to any form of sabotage like blowing up bridges or anything like that?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But I take it that there was no motivation and no expression on the part of your organization and yourself to call for any form of violence ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- or destruction of property?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, you don’t have to answer question -- and I’m just telling you because you don’t have a lawyer -- because what I’m about to ask you is subject to privilege, okay? So you don’t have to answer it ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and you’re not required.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you have a lawyer help you prepare the Memorandum of Understanding?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Two truck drivers. So it was just a document written by two truck drivers?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. With no legal advice?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you can agree with me that in that document, of course, it’s proposing that the Governor General and the Senate would essentially take over government in consultation with the committee; is that ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, right, and I don’t need to -- this is just the only question. I just want to make sure you’re clear. You understand, of course, the Governor General is appointed by the Prime Minister?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you understand that Senators are appointed ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- in Canada? So those are non-democratic actors, right?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So can you agree with me that what you were actually asking for was somewhat of an undemocratic solution?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I get it, okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But the other thing I want to ask you is this. It’s that my client’s Freedom Corp, Tamara Lich, Tom Marazzo, Chris Barber, et cetera. None of them supported the memorandum of understanding. They actually asked you to withdraw it, right? It was them who requested it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I take it my friend with the government, he put to you a discussion or a statement that you made about the Prime Minister had been condemned by the international community? Do you remember when he put that to you just moments ago?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Was what you were making reference to -- just t remind you. Was it the March 2022 incident where the Prime Minister was to speak in European Parliament and a bunch of the members of Parliament walked out and gave speeches against him invoking the Emergencies Act? is that what you were referring to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, Brendan Miller for Freedom Corp and also counsel to Ms. Lich. We have already involved in writing on October 7th, 2022, all the proper provisions of the relevant statutes with respect to testimony here today. But I believe my friend is consenting that I can have that invocation marked as an exhibit. If we could bring up document HRF00001610, please. And if we can just scroll down to, I believe, the third page. Oh, the fourth, my apologies. And there is the invocation. And thank you, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just a request. As you know, the witness is now technically under -- the cross-examination hasn’t started, but we would like permission to be able to communicate with the witness. We actually are all living in the same building. In fact, she’s staying ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry, we’d like permission, sir, leave to be able to communicate with the witness, though she’s still under oath. We actually all kind of live in the same apartment buildings and sharing apartments with the witness and things like that. So subject to your direction. Whatever works. I understand that that was given to Chief Sloly’s counsel. We would like the same prerogative, sir, if that was possible.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir, but as we would have the evening, we would anticipate -- we have already, but we would anticipate the possibility of continuing to prepare her for cross. But if that’s not permitted, sir, we won’t do so.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir, it is.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If my friend could actually take the witness to the part in the document that states that so that we can see it? I don’t know if that’s what it says or not. I apologize.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, with respect, my friend's asking a witness who has no knowledge of something whether or not she disagrees with the document of which she didn't draft, of which was drafted by the police, and then asking if there's any reason to disagree with something she has no knowledge of. That's not a question, sir, that's permissible, it's not relevant. This witness, while this was all going on, was in jail without any form of ability to access phones and texts, et cetera. It's not an appropriate line of questioning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, that's inflammatory, and I -- if my friend wants to take the stand and become a witness and give opinions about credibility that's fine, but that's not a proper question, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, there is individuals cc'd or that email is to. She is not in it, and then the next day, or just in two days she's not -- like you should first ask her if she got the email. God. Sorry.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, my friend is arguing -- -
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- a principle of law.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m wondering if we can take the morning break a little early. I have to talk to three separate lawyers behind me about certain areas of examination. If we could take the morning break, I’d be very much appreciative.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning. For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for Freedom Corp, and I think you know who I am, as I’m your lawyer.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I just want to start out with some just general questions. At any time during the protest, had you been given a Court order injunction to move the trucks or leave or what have you, what would you have done and how would you have acted?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you heard yesterday the evidence from Mr. Dichter, did you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he testified about not knowing about the deal that the convoy corp or Freedom Corp and the Board were going to enter into with the City. Do you have any comment about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so at that meeting, what was discussed?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what, if any, Board members objected to the dealings with the Mayor?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you heard him give evidence that the Board members were scared of the lawyers and what they were dealing with. Do you have any comment in that respect?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Have any of the other Board members expressed such a fear to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. My friend, Mr. Champ, discussed with you at length the injunction, when you should have known you should leave. And though I haven’t given notice of this, I’d like to bring up document HRF00000073, which is the injunction order from February 7th. And if we could just scroll down to the terms. Right. And so if I can just direct you to paragraph 7 of the injunction, can you read that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what’s your understanding of the injunction and this order at the time when it was obtained?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then there was a subsequent order and I understand that term, which states that “Provided the terms of the Order are complied with, the defendants or other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safety protest”, I take it that that term was in that order, too. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I apologize. I’ll speak up. The term at term 7 there where it says that it’s -- “Provided the terms of the Order are complied with, the defendants and other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safety protest”, I take it that was in the following injunction order as well. Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And so my friend with the Government of Canada discussed with you what your knowledge was of violent offences, et cetera, that was going on in Ottawa at the time. If Mr. Registrar could bring up the document we just discussed, POE.HRF a whole bunch of 0s 2. And if we could just rotate that? And so the colouring on this is gone, but -- and this is already in evidence, but between the date of the beginning of the protest and the invocation of the Emergencies Act, there was a total of four violent offences individuals were charged with in that time period. Did you know any of those individuals?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did you hear about individuals being charged with violent offences?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And my friend had asked you questions about some of the statements that have been given in this proceeding as well as in the media about all these awful things that happened to people. And you've been here for this entire time. Have you heard from any witness that they, in fact, were the victim of an assault, or witnessed an assault, or anything violent?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could you agree that if there were victims of actual violence, given that they know who's charged, it would have been relatively easy for those witness to be procured to testify before this Commission?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I withdraw.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Withdraw. I withdraw. Now I just want to talk with you about the letter and some of the reactions that you got from some of the protesters. Of course, we know that Mr. Dichter didn't appear to like the letter and Mr. King didn't appear to like the letter. What was your general responses that you were getting at the time with respect to the letter and the deal that was going to be done through the City?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And again, what was the sort of responses though that you were getting on the street from some of the truckers after that deal was announced?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was -- can you remember if it was -- was there some negative responses? Was there some positive responses that you personally witnessed?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand that Mr. Marazzo, as you sat through his testimony, he stated that a purpose of the meeting and the goal of Freedom Corp. and its Board was not really to get a deal with the mayor. It was to -- or a meeting with the mayor, but it was to get this deal to make things work peacefully. Can you elaborate on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the actual goal with respect to Freedom Corp. as well as the protesters that you were representing, their actual goal was not to achieve a meeting with the mayor, but it was to deal with this in a peaceful manner. Can you elaborate on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And just on my last point here, part of this Commission is about coming up with recommendations and things like that. I take it when you came into Ottawa, and we've heard evidence that a lot of the truckers were directed where to park and that's where they kind of stayed throughout the proceeding -- or throughout the protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so there is this issue, and what we -- what I refer to and what's referred to in some of the jurisprudence is a speaker's corner. Have you ever heard of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. It's a place, a location in a government area, particularly out in front of Parliament or where have you, where protesters are permitted to go and is a designated area for protests.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I take it when you were trying to get the protest moving, most of the protesters were wanting to get onto Wellington because it's in front of Parliament and they were protesting the federal government; fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And what is your understanding of the current state of Wellington today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And if that area that's blocked off became a speaker's corner where individuals at any time could go and protest the federal government, what are your thoughts on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And my friends from the Government of Canada put to you a whole bunch of evidence that you weren't familiar with until you got here with respect to threats. Can you elaborate on any of the threats you've received, ones that you know members of the protesters received as well as your -- the legal counsel, and even any of the legal counsel in this room since this proceeding started?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it's fair to say then that there has been a lot of threats on both sides?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But do you know anybody who's made death threats to any of these individuals?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And when you walk in here every day for the past few days, there's a protester outside, and I'm sure you've heard everything she's been saying, and she's a counter protester and is against your cause. What are the sort of things that that protester has said to you while you've been coming in and out of this hearing?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did she mention anything about terrorism?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what's it say?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In response, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re of course in support of the witnesses testifying and all of the evidence being put before the Commission. I’ll deal first with the point of law my friend raises about relevance and materiality. With respect to the terms of reference under the Order in Council in this Commission, this Commission is to look at the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. So with respect to whether or not there was police brutality or misconduct, et cetera, it’s relevant and material within the terms of reference. Second, with respect to my friend’s allegations of prejudice and it not being fair, with respect, they have not called a single victim or a single eye-witness to any of these reported violent crimes that they’re trying to lay at the hands of the protestors as a collective. I don’t see how our clients being able to find some witnesses of which they had no control over and which approached them, trying to be able to call actual evidence of actual violence that isn’t just an assertation. And in my respectful view, it’s relevant material. If you find that there is some form of prejudice suffered, what my friend is essentially alleging is a violation of the rule of Browne and Dunn. If this was a court, that leaves the court with various remedies, and one is to permit the recalling of a witness in rebuttal. With respect to the rule of Browne and Dunn, I did put issues with respect to arrest, et cetera, directly to Chief Bell, who was in charge of the operation at the time, and acting and asking questions about what was actually done. We’ve now provided the videos of those actual arrests. I understand that all the police agencies don’t want that to be in the public eye and, with respect, I would submit that the public has a right to see these videos. It is in the public interest and any prejudice is easily repairable by permitting my friends to call a rebuttal witness if they so choose. Subject to any questions, sir, those are my submissions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just one more, sir, and I just want to emphasize ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not. I’m not going to repeat.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll take it back. I’m going to point out that, you know, when it’s with the Commission under the Inquiry Act and its provincial equivalents, it is an inquiry and it has different rules and it’s much more liberal when it comes to the permitting of evidence. And though I understand my friend’s argument, there is many more remedies available for a breach of the rule in Browne and Dunn, if you find that it occurred, than not permitting the evidence. And I would submit simply that the least intrusive remedy in the truth-seeking function of this Commission would be to allow the evidence and on whatever teams you see just. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I don’t believe the witness chair and desk are set up for two witnesses right now. They’d need to get another mic, as well as another chair.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, if I may. Unlike some of the institutional individuals and representations here, we, of course, have no control over witnesses. They approach us. We get put in contact with them. It’s -- we get the evidence when we get the evidence and we put before you as quickly as possible. These witnesses have no connection to our process as a party. They were folks that were heard about and were asked to put in contact with. That’s how that works, sir. It just, unfortunately, didn’t happen until, I believe, we even got here in Ottawa, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that there was essentially -- maybe Ms. Van den Berg can explain the background, but at the end of the day, I think we provided it as soon as we could. We didn’t have reference to it per se. I’ll let Ms. Van den Berg speak to it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If it's okay, I'll just wrap up for Ms. van den Berg.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Hello?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I just want to ask you a couple of questions about some of your other observations. You saw ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So you saw the videos that my friend put up on there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And she asked you some questions about your opinions on them. Other than those incidents and first it wasn't asked, did you observe those events that were in those videos?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And two of the photos in there, one had a Confederate battle flag, the other had a Nazi flag. Did you see any such flags while you were in Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And what, if any, conversations did you have with other protesters that you might classify as racist, or misogynist, or any form of things that you thought were inappropriate? Did you have any such conversations either of you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did any of them ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- call for the overthrowing of the Government of Canada by violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did any of them ever call for violence at all?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you see anything with respect to destruction of property?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Convoy Organizers are ceding their time to Mr. MacKenzie’s counsel, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have an objection.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My friend is misstating the evidence to the witness and I object to it on that basis. The evidence is is that the vast majority of charges were laid after the fact and that actually, at least based on the one document in evidence, criminal charges that existed at the time, before the invocation, were only about 19 that -- of charges laid. So with respect to my friend stating, in the OPS document -- and I can advise the Commission that after I looked at what they had put together, I asked for disclosure from them with respect to when these charges were laid, and they’ve decided to provide that and they’re using a jumbled-up statistic. So, in my submission, sir, my friends can ask the witness about why he didn’t include OPS information in his statement that isn’t clear. I think he needs to actually put the actual evidence that is before this tribunal before him and not jumble it up into a fact that these are 500-some-odd charges that may or may not have been laid during the time period that he was here, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller, Mr. Bulford. I'm counsel to the convoy or, sorry, Freedom Corp. who is the entity representing the protesters that were in the city in February and January of 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening. Commissioner, just for ease of reference, what I'm continuing to do now, just to get to the point. Your counsel have been excellent in adducing evidence in-chief and I'm just going to deal with examination from the questions that arose from the other parties. And so I’ll try and be quicker now for you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I just think it’s helpful. So there’s a couple of things and there will be a couple of documents that arose that are in the system already from my friends’ questioning I want to put to you. But the first thing I’d like to ask you about, Mr. Bulford, is Parliament Protection Services -- this is of course to most Canadians a sort of police service that nobody understands and nobody knows much about. What can you tell me about it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And can you tell me, who does the Parliament Protection Services -- who does it answer to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the RCMP command, then, that falls under Commissioner Lucki?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And is it fair to say that from what you've seen from being within an RCMP -- from being within the RCMP and seeing it on the news that you've witnessed or heard of Commissioner Lucki relaying public messages on behalf of the elected executive branch or relaying information that the political executive branch wants to relay to the public?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the next question I want to bring up -- if I can bring up Document 7722_REL.0001.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Text messages, yes. So it's -- and I'll have to get the other one too. So it's 7724 is the next one, just so you know. Now, I'm not sure if you were present or you had watched this part of the hearing when I referred to these text messages. This is a text exchange between one of the staffers with the Prime Minister's Office, and another one of the staffers with the Minister of Public Safety's Office; okay? And this is in this context the staffer with the Prime Minister's Office states to the staffer with Public Safety Minister's Office that: "Got a quick [response], people are into it. [Let me know] if your boss is too." Boss being the Minister of Public Safety: "Happy to help however I can! This is what I sent through [by the way]: 'Hi, I just had a chat with Alex at PS..." Being Public Safety: "'...who had a bit of an interesting idea. As you saw in the pod goals chat, the [trucker] convoy and some of their more extreme comments...(calling for Jan 6 style insurrection) are getting more coverage in the media. Alex was surveying whether [there would] be some interest in his boss doing some media on this eventually. He was chatting with Mendicino about it right before he went into [a] cabinet retreat.'" And can you agree that cabinet retreat was on January 24th? Were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, that's 2002 [sic]. And then he goes on: "'I think there could be an opportunity to get in on this growing narrative, particularly with the research that LRB is doing into their backers.'" Do you know the LRB is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Have you ever heard of the Liberal Research Bureau while you were on the Hill?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And: "'My thoughts of framing here would be similar to what the PM/Blair...'" Being Minister Blair and the Prime Minister: "'...said last year when Jan. 6th occurred:'" And the first point is: "'"Our democracy is something we need to nurture and protect every day."'" And then if we could bring up the second part of the text message, at 7724. And then it goes on, and this is the points that are being relayed and -- or that is essentially going to be the narrative: "'We will always support the right to peaceful protest. [And] some of the calls that organizers of these events are making are concerning, and [we'll take] them seriously (would need something to back this up). We'll continue to monitor the situation closely. The fine line to walk would be to ensure we are not looking like we are directing the police, which obviously is not the goal here. Hoping to canvass your thoughts - Alex said he'd come back to me with a proposal this afternoon when he gets to chat with Mendicino again, obviously pending his boss's and our interests in looking into this further.'" So that text is to either the Prime Minister or someone within his office and they're explaining what Alex, the Chief of Staff for the Public Safety Minister, has come up with. And he responds: "Thanks!! I had an initial chat with my boss and he's supportive, but wants to wait a day or two. There's a danger that if we come down too hard they might push out the crazies." Being, I think, the far extreme factions online they were talking about. "I think that's fair", she responds: "Apparently [G]lobal & others are working on stories. Maybe we see how those land." So you had mentioned that you don't trust legacy media and you mentioned Global News ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and that's one of them.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I've sent this around, I'm not going to try and move this article into evidence at this juncture, but did you know that the following day Global released a news article titled January 6th Event or there was a -- going to be a January, a potential January-type 6th event on the -- during the Ottawa convoy, and they managed to get Parliament Protective Services to comment, and what was reiterated was one of the points in that text message. So again, I'm asking you, if the government was going to try and relay a narrative ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- from your experience on working on the Hill in law enforcement, would they use something like the Parliamentary Protective Services to relay a narrative?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so the Parliamentary Protective Services reiterate, and I'll just read it in, I'm just trying to pull it up again.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So in any event, I'll deal with that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So moving on, essentially the Parliamentary Protective Services in this article states that they're wary of the security and they won't talk about further matters in order to keep people safe. I'm just summarising it, we'll put it into other evidence through other witnesses. But is it concerning to you that, you know, coming from this issue with misinformation that you're concerned about, you've testified to, that the elected Executive Branch has identified knowing about news articles ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and what they're going to be about before they come out.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Directly in the text messages they said that Global is running a piece on it. It was on January 24th, of which ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- that was, and the news article I'm speaking of was on January 25th. And then Parliamentary Security Services says essentially the byline that is in those text messages, sir. And I'll put that into evidence, and I'm just asking if it concerns him if that's the case. That's it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. It's the text messages. So you have the text messages between the staffers with both the Prime Minister's Office as well as with the Minister of Public Safety.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They then say what the narrative is going to be. They then say that Global is going to be running this story, and then when Global runs the story they quote Parliamentary Protective Services citing basically one of the lines in the text messages, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So with respect to that, if that is the case, is that something that concerns you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And moving on from that point, my friend brought up with you the issue with respect to danger of people staying and the advice you were giving and everything. And I'd like to bring up OPS document 14504, please. Do you recognise this document?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what is it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And in reviewing that document, does any of it therein say that all the protesters have to leave?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so was that one of the documents that formed your understanding of what was to happen?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And with respect to the position therein that says they need to move their trucks, you're not contesting that that was going to have to happen?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so when you talk about lawful protests you're talking about people, actual physical people, human beings on a street protesting. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so it was your belief, and you were advising Canadians to come to Ottawa or to stay in Ottawa in order to carry out that sort of protest.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s fine. I’ll move on.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thanks.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So if we could please bring up OPP document 4286? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So this is the document that my friend put to you; it’s the Operational Plan. And if Mr. Clerk wouldn’t mind scrolling down to page 31? It’s not 31 in the documents -- oh, no, it is. There we go. Perfect. So if you could just take a moment to look at that, Mr. Bulford. It’s a script for arresting for -- or for arresting protesters. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you can agree the plan was, is that the protesters were essentially going to be released with just a court date and some release conditions as soon as possible; they weren’t being put before the Justice of the Peace or a bail hearing; that was the plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so other than Tamara Lich and Chris Barber, do you know of anyone else this plan just wasn’t applied to, where they just got a Promise to Appear with conditions, undertakings, and, you know, they all got -- they didn’t get massive bail conditions imposed upon them by the Crown or on behalf of OPS? Do you know anyone else, other than those two individuals, who wasn’t released under this sort of release plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was anybody else that you know of?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller. I appear as Counsel for Freedom Corp., which represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Good afternoon, sir, again, and thank you for appearing here today. My first question is, is prior to you taking on your current office, your former office, what did you do in -- as a job prior?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You're a lawyer as well?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you didn't ever work at national security law; did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so it's fair to say you're not a national security expert and you don't have background on what constitutes a national security emergency; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when it comes to national security, I take it you rely a lot on law enforcement, is that correct, with respect to providing you information?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And in your capacity, of course, municipally, that's primarily going to be your municipal police force and the OPP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mostly municipal police.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And can you agree, if -- you've said you have some of an understanding of national security, so you're familiar with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what's your understanding of what they do?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, but you agree with me that there's the Federal Intelligence Service, sort of the Canadian equivalent to the CIA; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so the intelligence they gather with respects to threats to the security of Canada, can you agree with me that they would probably have the best information?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Could we please bring up a document, I've sent an email about it, arising from my friend's cross. TS.NSC.CAN.001.00000206_REL_0001.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If I can assist, I’m only referring to the one. That’s it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And it only arose from cross-examination from my friend, as I made clear in my email. Not from Steve Windsor, not from the Commissioner, but from my friend with the Federal Government, which made it relevant.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, sir, this is a document from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service summarizing what it is they discussed with Cabinet regarding threats to national security. If we could just scroll down to page 5, please? Okay. So I just want you to see that. So on that document there: “On February 3rd, CSIS assessed there’s no indicators that known IMVEs [and I take you know what that is] actors were planning to engage in violence.” (As read) And then if you scroll down to the other bullet point, it states: “On February 13th, CSIS advised that the implementation of the EA would likely galvanize the anti-government narrative within the convoy and further radicalize some towards violence referring tot eh increase in violence rhetoric following the declaration of the State of Emergency in the Province of Ontario. Furthermore, CSIS advised that…” (As read)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Thank you. “Furthermore, CSIS advised that the invocation of the EA by the Federal Government would likely lead to the dispersing of the convoy within Ottawa, but would likely increase the number of Canadians who hold extreme anti-government views and pushed some towards the belief that violence is the only solution to what they perceived as a broken system and government. Following the invocation of the EA, CSIS briefed Cabinet and reiterated the potential for the EA to increase anti- government views and violent ideologies, including in those not yet radicalized.” (As read) Now, can you agree with me that you would never want to do anything that could create further radicalization of extremists within the City of Windsor? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Withdrawn.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Withdrawn. I’m done. Thank you, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for Freedom Corp., which represents the protesters that were in the City of Ottawa in January and February. Sir, if we could first, Mr. Clerk, have just the document that my friend referred to, OPP00004539; could we bring that up and go to the page that he was on, page 42, where that tweet is? Okay, so that’s the tweet that my friend put to your earlier; fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And can we scroll down with the commentary. Okay. Who is that individual? Do you know who posted that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. You don’t know if they even were at the Windsor Bridge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. You don’t even know if that’s a real account?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can you agree with me -- and I just want to put, sort of, as I understand -- and these are no my words I’m about to put to you but I want to know if you agree with the following with respect to online social media and spaces. So, “The anonymity of an online space allows individuals to post commentary that they would not normally say in public. Many posts in this space are best articulated” -- and again, this is not my words -- “as shit posting. Confirmation bias: strategic analysis must be driven by direct- evidence collection and assessment as opposed to reliance on social media posting as it lacks context and where the poster’s bias may not be considered.” Would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And of course you followed up on investigating that and making sure that, you know, that wasn’t an issue?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can we scroll down to page 44, please? Okay. And so this is your -- an OPP Intelligence Assessment of Windsor. Can we scroll down. And do you want to just to take a minute to read that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you can agree there that the report there from the 12th from the OPP says: "No persons were observed but believed to be inside the camper." If we can scroll down, "Only Canadian flags observed." That's it. So you can agree based on that report, as of the 12th, according to the OPP, that wasn't really an issue.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And again, we -- you agreed possibly with what I said to you with respect to essentially the validity of relying on social media alone; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mayor. For the record, Brendan Miller. I'm appearing as counsel for Freedom Corp., which represents the protestors that were in the City of Ottawa in January and February. How are you doing?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Long flight. I love driving through Coutts.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So beautiful part of the country. So if we could please bring up -- it's the document that my friends have already referred to from the federal government. It's the Canada document ending 8500 that was just up?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I do. It is PB.NSC.CAN.00008500. Okay. Can we please scroll to page 32? It's just loading still. There we go. Okay. So this is a document my friend put to you. It's a Power Point put together by the RCMP. And there you can see that they are doing what they refer to as media engagement and talking and listening to protesters, supporters and residents of Coutts. Did you witness any of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you ended up going and speaking to the protestors yourself too; didn't you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand that when you did that, you ended up doing an interview with CTV and City News about that experience; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, let me ask you if you remember saying this. I just want to put this -- this is a statement that's been attributed to you. "I wasn't negotiating or anything else. I was just there to find out if they were as bad as some people have said, and they're certainly not." Do you remember saying that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And do you remember saying this about the protestors, "They're the same guys that I have for neighbours."
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you also said, "They're the guy that owns the farm up on the hill, the guy that hauls for local businesses." Remember saying that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And this situation, I understand, polarised your community. There was -- the community was essentially divided by half supporting, half against the truckers. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
70-30.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And was that 70-30 in support or which one was in the 30 and 70?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Seventy (70) percent or 30 percent supporting the protest?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Seventy (70) percent.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the majority of your town.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And there was signs up and flags of all kinds that were on residences of your town’s property. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you tell me about some of the ones you saw and describe them? I know some of them were a bit vulgar, but if you’d like to.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The ones that say “F Trudeau”?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And those flags were in your own community.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And because you’re right on the border with Montana there; right? There is an intersect between the population in Montana and Coutts. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And can you explain, how long have you been in rural Alberta politics?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what’s the vibe you get or the interactions you have with your residents with respect to their support or lack of support for the federal government as it currently is composed?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what is these dislikes? What are they about? What are these people’s grievances in your residents and in that area?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there was -- I don’t know if you got the opportunity to watch -- did you watch the testimony of Ms. Tamara Lich in this proceeding because it was played out on TV?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you -- do you remember when she said that a lot of Albertans feel that they don’t have a voice because the elections that are in -- resulting in the elections of MP and the federal executive are determined before they even vote and that they just don’t feel represented in Ottawa? Do you remember hearing that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is that a general grievance that you’ve heard some of your constituents and that you’ve heard some of rural Albertans and other Albertans talk about?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you aware that with respect to the protests in Ottawa it’s been reported that Albertans made up the -- essentially almost half of the individuals that were here?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening. My name is Brendan Miller, and I’m counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the represent -- or the organization that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in February and January of 2022. I just have a couple of questions for you, sir. Are you familiar -- and I’m assuming you’re familiar with most transportation law. I know my friend has put some things to you, and that you talk to lawyers, but are you familiar with the International Bridges and Tunnels Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But you’re familiar of its existence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that’s a federal law?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand it that that law is governed by the Federal Minister of Transportation; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Are you aware that under that Act, that at any time, for the purpose of safety and security, that the Federal Minister of Tranport [sic]: “If the Minister is of the opinion that there is an immediate threat to the security or safety...any international bridge or tunnel, the Minister may make directions - including directions respecting the evacuation of [a] bridge or tunnel and the diversion of traffic or persons - requiring any person to do, or refrain from doing, anything that in the opinion of the Minister is appropriate to do [and] refrain from doing in order to respond to that threat.” So he’s permitted to just pass an order to vacate the bridge, vacate the area. Would that have been helpful?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And this protest, it started on the 7th?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 7th of February?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In Windsor.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they cleared it on the 12th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before the Emergencies Act.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And at no time did the Minister pass a regulation in order the vacate that bridge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, good afternoon. Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which represents the protestors that were in Ottawa only, nobody at Coutts, between January and February ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- of 2022. So I just want to dive right in. So -- and I don’t want to ask for anything subject to Criminal Code sealing orders or things and just based on what I know from the public record about this group that ended up being arrested at the border in Coutts area with respect to the conspiracy to commit murder and all of that. It’s my understanding that the RCMP undercover agents -- and this is based on the public record -- were involved with those -- that group from a very early point. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Was it your understanding that that group, their plot was to have two females smuggle in in a hockey bag a whole bunch of guns into the protest? Is that what your understanding was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But are you, after the fact, aware that the two females that they were intending to have smuggle in these firearms were actually two undercover RCMP officers?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To your knowledge, before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, was this investigation and this operation with respect to these gentlemen who were arrested at Coutts for conspiracy to commit murder -- was it ever relayed to the federal executive political branch, that is, Cabinet? Are you aware if that was, before the invocation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the federal executive branch in the sense of the political branch of government with respect to elected Ministers.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And it’s fair to say that with Coutts, of course, none of the provisions under the Emergencies Act that were invoked and the subsequent Orders in Council -- none of them were used in respect to Coutts, were they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And to your knowledge, none of the protestors at Coutts had any of their accounts frozen or anything like that under the orders.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Now, to your knowledge, were you aware of when the RCMP finally mobilized their national Public Enforcement Units to go to Ottawa? They actually brought in other officers from B.C. and other folks. Were you apprised of when that happened?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree with me that that request, it doesn’t require the Emergencies Act to be invoked. This is a thing that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- can be done. And it could have been done at any time between when the protests started in Ottawa to when it was asked; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And for whatever reason, the RCMP in Ottawa never asked for all of these units, which could have easily been made available and sent to Ottawa to assist with resources -- they never asked for them before the 15th, did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you’ve watched some of this hearing. The biggest issue in Ottawa was resources. And it was some of the evidence from poor Chief Sloly, who had this thrown on him, that he was asking the RCMP for resources and Commission Lucki said that, “You’ve got what you’ve got”. But all times, is it fair that Commissioner Lucki could have asked -- made a request like that was made on the 15th and asked for these officers to come to Ottawa to assist.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening, Deputy Minister.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name's Brendan Miller and I am counsel for Freedom Corp. and I'm part of the -- that which is a entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Sir, I want to start off with something you had mentioned in your chief with respect to Mayor Watson stating that he invoked the state of emergency to put pressure on the province. And you said that that seemed to be political. Can -- you didn’t get much of a chance to elaborate on that, and I just wanted to give you an opportunity.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so that purpose, in your view then, if it was the true purpose, based on the call transcript with respect to Mayor Watson, that was not a proper purpose to declare that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I understand in just dealing with this, the background, you're familiar with Mayor Watson's background; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
His history and work in provincial politics and in the municipal politics. Are you familiar?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you're familiar, of course, with Minister Blair? You used to work with him when he was at the Toronto Police Service, I take it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that was -- you were a superintendent there at the time he was chief?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it fair to say -- and there's a history between Minister Blair and Premier Ford? They have a very, very not good relationship; let's say that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When you were at the Toronto Police Service, were you aware of the conflict that both Minister Blair and Premier Ford had with one another?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Based on the records that aren't yet in evidence that I've reviewed over the last few days of this.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, it appears from the records, sir, that part of it was that the minister was trying to, at times in text messages, sir -- I don’t want to get into it just too far yet -- but the relationship between himself and Mr. Ford is referenced in various text messages not yet in evidence from Minister Blair, sir. I want to establish what that relationship was like. If you'd like me to deal with it directly with Minister Blair, I can hold off.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was simply he was the superintendent during the conflict that arose, and it was during the time that now Minister Blair was the chief of the Toronto Police Service when he had a conflict with then Chief Blair when he was a councillor under the tutelage of his brother who was the mayor at the time. But I can move on, sir, if you -- I just thought this witness, of course, having been a superintendent at the time, would have that information. I can move on from it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. So sir, you're aware that going back to their days as Minister Blair when he was the chief and Doug Ford when he was City Councillor, both Minister Blair and Doug Ford had a conflict with one another at that time, and you were aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. So with respect to -- you discussed mediation and the use of politicians in that regard with respect to a protest and respect to a blockade, and said that that’s how sometimes politicians can be used. Do you want to give some examples of when that has happened that you've seen in your experience as both a police officer as well as in your current position?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that a lot of that happens in coordination with the relevant police service of the jurisdiction. They actually make a request that some of the political executive branch come and attend and help assist them quell the issue; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What, in January of 2020 or 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so that was outside of -- he did that outside of police advice; is that what you're saying?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, okay. So in this case, I take it, now, we've heard in evidence that OPP Inspector Beaudin, who is essentially doing all the PLT work, he was putting forth a plan of PLT that would involve either someone from the federal government, provincial government. I don't think he really cared who it was as long as it was effective. If the inspector had asked your government for assistance based on your knowledge, would one of the executive branch, the political executive branch and its elected members, being ministers, would they have participated in that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And from your understanding, despite Inspector Beaudin's request of the federal elected executive, do you have any knowledge of the political branch of the federal executive, despite -- or upon his request from Inspector Beaudin agreeing to do the same?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But your government was willing and able to do that if it was asked?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I just want to deal with a little -- spend my last point in time and to clarify both for the public. And I know that you’ve, I think, been the first witness here to make this very clear, and I think it’s worth emphasizing. When it comes to policing in this entire country, police are supposed to be 100 percent independent of the political branch? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so just because a mayor, just because a prime minister, just because the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, or a premier wants them to do something, that’s not supposed to have an effect on their decisions? They have to assess them themselves, and they don’t follow, essentially, directions from elected government? They are independent?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And one of the reasons that’s the case is that you don’t want police, who have probably the most power out of any officials in the country domestically, you don’t want them to do things for political reasons; right? reasons; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. In your opinion, in looking at the facts as you know it as a Deputy Minister, as a former police officer, in your view, was this situation politicalized?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did that undermine police enforcement, and police tactic, and police decisions?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did any of the conduct of the federal political branch, that is the elected ministers and Prime Minister, did any of their statements in the media and to the public at large create any issues for the police dealing with the situation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning. For the record, my name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel to Freedom Corp, which is the organization that represents the protestors that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Thank you for coming here today and testifying. First, before I begin, sir, I am going to be referring to one document that I believe I need leave before I do so. It has been referred to in the notice I gave already, but because it is a witness statement with a witness who’s not yet testified, but it’s relevant to this, it’s WTS00000060. It’s the statement from the CSIS panel. The relevance and materiality of that is that these gentlemen were the -- essentially the consumers of information and there is a lot of statements in there with respect to what the government was told and when, and I’m intending to put that to them. So I would ask for leave to be able to refer to that document through my examination.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir. So just to begin, Deputy Minister Stewart, you’ve been the Deputy Minister of Public Safety since December of 2019. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Until just recently. All right. And when you took over that portfolio, I take it that you had familiarized yourself with the process of law enforcement and the intelligence agencies with respect to investigations. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You learned on the job, right. And -- because prior to that, you were with Finance. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And prior to your appointment into the portfolio of Public Safety, is it fair to say that other than financial intelligence, that you had not worked in the area of law enforcement or the intelligence field. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not entirely?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Exactly. So financial intelligence within the criminal sphere of the Ministry of Finance.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, right. And so in your evidence here today already, you’ve spoken about the thresholds for investigations in your chief, and I want to discuss that for a moment. Okay? So you understand, I take it, that law enforcement and intelligence agencies in Canada, the threshold that you’re speaking of with respect to opening an investigation, it’s referred to in Canada as reasonable suspicion. Are you familiar with that term?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So there’s -- and we’ll get into that. And you can agree with me that that’s a pretty low threshold, is it not, in law enforcement terms?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you’re aware that the law recognizes, though, that reasonable suspicion essentially requires more than a mere suspicion, but something less than a belief based on reasonable grounds. Is that your understanding?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so reasonable grounds to suspect is different than reasonable grounds generally. You understand that; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you don’t know the difference between reasonable grounds and reasonable grounds to suspect.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there’s two -- there’s two thresholds in Canada with respect to investigations criminally and in intelligence. We have the lower threshold of reasonable suspicion, which you call reasonable grounds to suspect, and then reasonable grounds, which is also called reasonable and probable grounds. Reasonable and probable grounds is a higher threshold than reasonable suspicion. You understand that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pardon me?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So your understanding is that reasonable suspicion is a higher threshold than reasonable grounds.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And it’s the same thing with reasonable grounds; right? You would also have a particular act in mind. Can you agree that reasonable grounds requires some reliable information that there was a reasonable to believe a person or group could have committed an offence or pose a threat to the security of Canada? Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So whereas reasonable suspicion, it just requires a reasonable suspicion; right? It’s a lesser threshold than reasonable grounds. Can you -- can you agree? And you know that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so can you agree, though, that it is CSIS who is the main agency that administers the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And they’re the agency that’s primarily responsible for assessing if there’s a section 2 CSIS Act threat to the security of Canada; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And under section 12 of the CSIS Act, CSIS is only required to have a reasonable suspicion that there is a section 2 CSIS Act threat to open an investigation. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And they’re not required to meet the higher threshold of reasonable grounds to open an investigation.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For section 12, and that’s reasonable suspicion. That’s what it says.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So can I bring up WTS00000060, please? And can we scroll down to page 5? Okay. And can we scroll down to the heading “Intelligence”? And just the first paragraph, I’ll give you a moment to read that. Would you help me with the pronunciation of Minister David’s last name? We’ve all been debating about how to pronounce it properly.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Vigneault. All right. So David Vigneault, he stated that at no point did the service, being CSIS, assess the protests in Ottawa or elsewhere, those referred to as the Freedom Convoy and related protests and blockades in January and February 2022, constituted a threat to the security of Canada as defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act, and that CSIS cannot investigate activities constituting a lawful protest. And I take it you were advised of this; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And can we scroll down, then, to page 7? And go to the heading “Foreign Influence”. So Director Vigneault explained that the use of the term “foreign influence” under section 2 of the CSIS Act refers to a foreign state interference as the term is used within the national security community ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. “CSIS assessed there was no indication of foreign state interference occurring in the course of the protest. CSIS did not assess that any foreign state supported the protest through funding, that foreign states deployed covert or overt disinformation techniques, or that any foreign state actors attempted to enter into Canada to support the protest.” (As read) And I take it that you were advised of that by CSIS and Director Vigneault; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And if we can go down to page number 8, and the heading, “Recommendation to Cabinet”? There, Director Vigneault states that he learned that the EA reference, the threat definition set out in section 2 of the CSIS Act, once the federal government began to seriously consider invoking the EA between February 10th and 13th. He requested that the service prepare a threat assessment under risks associated with the invocation of the EA. He felt an obligation to clearly convey the Service’s position that there did not exist a threat to the security of Canada as defined by the Service’s legal mandate. The threat assessment prepared by the Service was that the invocation of the Emergencies legislation risked further inflaming IMV rhetoric and individuals holding accelerationists or antigovernment views. You were told that; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So can we now please bring up document number TS.NSC.CAN.00100000206_REL_0001. So in this document, which is already actually in evidence -- I just want to scroll down to page 5, please. So there again: “On February 3rd, CSIS assessed [there’s no indications] that known IMVE actors were planning to engage in violence.” And it’s on February 13th, I believe, that this is the document that Director Vigneault is referring to that states that, you know, it could’ve been a risk if you invoke the Emergencies Act to making things worse; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you knew about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so did Cabinet; they knew about all of this; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay, if I could bring up the next document, which is going to be TSNSC.CAN.001.00000160_REL_0001. Now, before I get into this, you can agree that it was clear to both you and Cabinet that CSIS did not have reasonable suspicion that there existed a section 2 CSIS Act threat during the protest; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I also understand that the Canadian Security Establishment, the CSE, they never advised you or the government or Cabinet that they had identified a section 2 CSIS Act threat either; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And both the RCMP and the OPP, from at least their evidence and things we’ve seen today, they never identified or advised the government that there was a section 2 CSIS Act threat, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so the entire intelligence apparatus and law enforcement apparatus within Canada, tells the Cabinet and the government that there is no section 2 CSIS Act threat, is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So what intelligence bureau or agency or law enforcement agency told the government, “Here’s the evidence of reasonable and probable grounds, of reasonable grounds, of a section 3 CSIS Act threat”? And you know, I take it now, ‘cause it’s advised to you, that that’s required to invoke the Emergencies Act, it’s in the documents; you were advised of that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So what agency gave you the evidence and the intelligence that said, “Hey, we have reasonable grounds of a section 2 CSIS Act threat? There wasn’t one, was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I understand that. But you understand that when Ministers or administrative agencies et cetera, are entitled to make a statutory decision, whether or not a statutory requisite is met, they do so based on the evidence that is before them and the submissions before them; you know that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you have the RCMP, you have CSIS, you have the entire intelligence apparatus in the federal government, and none of them said that this threshold was met, did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So -- and with respect to the Ministers making the decision, when you’re talking about Ministers, you’re talking about the elected executive; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So the Prime Minister.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. To your knowledge, what training in national security and law enforcement does the Prime Minister have?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Can you agree with me that he doesn’t have any, to your knowledge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And what about Minister Mendicino? He, I understand, has training as a Crown prosecutor at least, is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Minister Blair, he was the Chief of Police for the Toronto Police Service.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when did Minister Blair first tell you that he was thinking about invoking the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There’s a record not yet in evidence that states that Minister’s Blair’s strategy was from February 4th on to invoke the Emergencies Act; were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can you please bring up the next document which is -- oh, we have the input, and I’ll just ask you about these. These are the -- if you can scroll up to the top, please? I take it that this is the input that CSIS gave to your Ministry, Public Safety, with respect to the key messages they thought should be put out with respect to the convoy, is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I’m just going to go through it with you, then.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I’ll be quick. This document, you agree that none of the messaging from this document was actually incorporated into the messaging from Public Safety, was it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I have to be quick so, I just want to bring up one last document. And that’s SSM.CAN.00001079_REL.0001. No, that’s not the correct document. It’s okay. I’ll deal with it with another witness. So thank you very much for answering my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller; I represent “Freedom Corp” which is an entity that represents the protestors that were in Ottawa on January and February of 2022. So I take it, given your positions with respect to international affairs and all of that, your focus in the protest was more dealing with the protests that were occurring at essentially border passings, et cetera, with respect to commercial trucks and vehicles being able to come in and leave Canada; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that, at least from reviewing some of the records et cetera, that the concern with the diplomatic missions was not that the protest was interfering with the missions, but that it inconvenienced some of the diplomats; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s fair to say that not a single diplomat from a foreign state was physically assaulted by a protestor; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, this Commission has heard evidence with respect to physical assaults during the period of the protest, that there was a total of five charges, in total. So that’s from the beginning of the protest until the end. And I understand your concern, but you have no evidence that any diplomat was physically assaulted by the protestors in Ottawa; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And I also understand that you have no evidence that any of the protestors in downtown Ottawa verbally threatened to harm any of the diplomats; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s not like a situation, for example, in 1970 during the FLQ crisis, where a diplomat was murdered and another one kidnapped where they actually invoked the War Measures Act. That wasn’t -- you were concerned about maybe someone might threaten a diplomat?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Under the Vienna Convention?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, okay. And I take it with respect to the -- just turning your mind now to the border blockades, the information that you have you said there was no actual report done with respect to the losses that were suffered with respect to the blockades causing those losses; is that fair? The Government has never done a full tally of what was the economic ramifications of the blockades; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And is it fair that Stats. Canada has, and they concluded that all it did was inconvenience the truckers and in fact -- or the people crossing the borders and any imports and they simply had to use other ports?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Does the undermining of Canada’s reputation and protests in Canada, in your view, is that a security threat under section 2 of the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the country’s reputation; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So how was the country’s reputation when various Ministers and the Prime Ministers -- the Prime Minister announced that there was foreign funding coming the United States and that this was undermining Canadian democracy. And I’ve seen in the disclosure and others, that -- wasn’t the United States, some sitting members of their Government, including their Ministries, weren’t they a little upset about that when it was accused that the U.S. was financing this protest; weren’t they upset? I understood they were.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know, you can agree with me that there's nothing wrong with a Canadian donating to an American cause and an American donating to a Canadian cause with respect to funding protests or charities? There's nothing illegal about that, is there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you're saying that was illegal was the blockade, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the being in downtown Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what was the illegal aspect to you of the protests in downtown Ottawa? Can you tell me what the illegal aspect it is that you're referring to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We have, and I'm still confused. So what is your understanding, your personal understanding of what the illegal activities in downtown Ottawa were?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you were concerned about Canada's reputation due to illegal activity in downtown Ottawa, but you don’t know what that activity is; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, before we end for the day, I just wanted to raise a point if I may?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, we do not need the witnesses, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So, sir, for the record, Brendan Miller appearing as Counsel for Freedom Corp. Sir, there's been an issue with respect to disclosure from the Department of Justice for some time and I just wanted to point out some things. As per Relativity, I've been told how to organize it with respect to uploads and when they were uploaded. I can advise the Commission that since November 6th, the Department of Justice has dumped in about, well, 199 new records, and over the weekend alone, since we adjourned 409. Some of these documents are extraordinarily relevant, including entire team message chats with Brenda Lucki and the RCMP during the IRG meetings, commenting on what's going on. They're not even in the Commission's list of documents for tomorrow because they probably don't know about them. They're not labelled. I found them by accident. There is an issue at this juncture, in my submission, with a dump truck approach, in my submission, on behalf of the DOJ in order to provide in disclosure late that is relevant material, should have been provided quite some time ago, and it's not even properly labelled. For example, all of those -- there's Teams meetings with all the executive of the RCMP about what's happening. It's very interesting. I'm just finding it now, but nobody seems to know about it because of late disclosure and because it's not properly labelled and because it's coming in in mass quantities. So, sir, I wanted to raise that with you. I would submit that this Commission has jurisdiction to compel the DOJ to outline and properly label materials and provide them properly, outline what they are, and not simply name them random letters and numbers, so that people don't see them. I only spotted them today, a couple hours ago, because I got lucky.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I'm simply asking if the Commission can direct the DOJ to properly label what the items are in relativity, who the parties are discussing matters in there with the proper date, as opposed to just it being dumped in with random numbers and then, you know, we're dealing with literally 1299 documents, records, not pages, records, that have been dumped in since November 6th, and we're all here, all day, and then trying to find this stuff, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. And it's not something, for example, in a civil case, we call them affidavits of records back home. I believe in Ontario they're called statement of records. I apologise, I'm not from here, but you're required to label the date, the actual record and et cetera, and that's how Relativity's set up. But I'm finding these extraordinarily compelling documents that not even the Commission has in their list of documents for tomorrow, and we're talking about text messages and iMessage system of sorts between Commissioner Lucki and all the executive of the RCMP during the IRG meetings and other things about what's going to be done. And they're not labelled, and I found them by luck. And in my submission, that's just not appropriate. These things need to be labelled. They need to actually say what they are. They can't just be dumped into the system last minute in the hopes that one of us luckily finds them. I don't know what else is in there, in those 1299 documents. I'm trying to get through them, but it's impossible to assess by just looking at the labels, et cetera, in Relativity when they're not actually labelled at all as to what they are.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Commissioner?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it possible that the Commission’s Counsel could be given more time without taking away time from parties? There was other records discovered last night, for example, being 113 pages of the Deputy Commissioner’s notes that are extremely important. I don’t know if my friend is wanting to deal with those; I’m guessing he probably does. Subject to any of the parties’ objections, as long as I didn’t lose the 20 minutes we have, I would be happy for my friend to keep going. It’s a very important issue and these witnesses are probably two of the most important witnesses this Commission will hear from during this entire proceeding.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What I’m saying is, is I think the Commission Counsel should be given as long as he needs in order to complete what he needs to complete, and not remove things from his agenda.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s all I’m concerned about.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, my name is Brendan Miller. I’m counsel to Freedom Corp, which is the corporation and entity that represents the protestors that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. First, both of you, thank you for your service and thank you for testifying here today. So I just want to begin by doing sort of a housekeeping matter from yesterday, but I’m going to use you folks to do that. If I can bring up document SSM.CAN.00000283_Rel.0001? Okay. And you had said in your evidence-in- chief, Commissioner Lucki, that the RCMP in Ottawa also dealt with the safety, security, et cetera, for international diplomats from foreign countries? Is that fair? Okay. So yesterday we heard evidence from the Assistant Deputy Minister Security and Emergency Management at Global Affairs Canada and she testified that they were concerned about the security and safety of foreign diplomats in Ottawa. And this document is a February 4th email -- if we can scroll down, please -- from Bill McCrimmon, Deputy Director of Diplomatic Security and Outreach Programs with GAC, so Global Affairs Canada. Are you familiar with Mr. McCrimmon?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And if you just want to take a moment, I’ll read it to you, but in that email, he states, on February 4th: “The Office of Protocol has not been made aware officially of any significant concerns by the diplomatic community in the National Capital Region…”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. “…linked to current ongoing demonstrations in downtown Ottawa. The RCMP Protective Operations Assessment Unit advised that there is no particular concern at this time for the diplomatic community. Some foreign missions have requested that the RCMP conduct security assessments, however, no specific concerns have been identified. Several missions have informally raised issues and inconveniences with the Chief of Protocol that have been affecting their operations related to limited access to buildings, blocked streets, noise impeding their work, and the odor of diesel fumes. The Office of Protocol (Diplomatic Security Liaison Unit) remains in contact with the RCMP and will advise of any significant concerns affecting [the] diplomatic missions.” And can you agree that of February 4th, that was the assessment also of your office?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that though this is February 4th, this situation, as described here, remained the same throughout the whole protest. Did it not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And yesterday the Assistant Deputy Minister, she couldn’t give us any other information other than a blanket statement with no evidence or information. So is it fair to say that if there was actual evidence or information ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. I’ll rephrase. So would you say then that you would have no more further information with respect to specifics than the Assistant Deputy Minister did yesterday?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, Commissioner Lucki, I’m going to ask some pointed questions on the next following set. Now, Commissioner Lucki, can you agree that under the RCMP Act, it doesn’t provide sufficient independence from Political Executive and political interference from your office? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know that from your appointment as Commissioner, under section 5 of the RCMP Act, that appointment is what’s referred to “at pleasure”? You understand that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you understand that that means that the Governor in Council, on a recommendation from the Political Executive, the Prime Minister, Cabinet, can remove you at any time at will ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- without reason; right? And this is different than what’s referred to as an appointment of good behaviour? You understand what that is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And an appointment of good behaviour, you at least understand requires actual grounds of misconduct to remove you? Kind of like a judge; right? You get that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And for example, I take it you’re aware of the former SNC Lavalin, Jody Wilson- Raybould scandal with respect to the Director of Public Prosecution Services of Canada? They -- that Public Prosecution Service’s Director, you’re aware that they’re appointed at good behaviour? They’re not subject to being removed at will? You’re aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you understand -- I understand you have an understanding of the SNC Lavalin, Jody Wilson-Raybould scandal though, do you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the issue with that was is that the Political Executive trying to use Ms. Raybould-Wilson essentially tried to skirt the Act with respect to advising Prosecution Services on how to conduct themselves. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the problem with that was is that Act, you know that any direction from the Political Executive via the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General, that seeks to compel the Director of Public Prosecution Services to do something, it has to be through the legislative process, and then whatever they direct them, has to be published in a gazette within six months. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you agree that your Office of Commissioner has no such safeguards; does it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know that the common law in policing is that you, as Commissioner, and other chiefs of police throughout the country, and the common-law world, really, are to be 100 percent independent from the Political Executive?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And do you agree with me that the Political Executive ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you can agree with me that the Political Executive should not be placing undue pressure on you or directing you what to do with respect to policing, other than the administration part that you mentioned?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s not -- it’s true, and I’m not trying to probe, but it’s public knowledge that previously, the Political Executive has asked you to do certain things in investigations, such as release information that could undermine an investigation? Do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You agree that happened when you were asked by federal Ministers to release the form of firearms the RCMP in Nova Scotia knew were used in the mass shooting while the investigation was ongoing? You remember?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m referring to the issue with respect to releasing the forms of firearms for the purpose of furthering the legislation ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And but the Minister asked you to do it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when it wasn’t, there’s the transcript and the recording with respect to that, that you had said to some of your colleagues, “Why couldn’t this have been done? The Minister asked for a small ask. Why wasn’t it done?”
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now I take it that -- would you agree that the Executive Branch of the Federal Government, both yourself and you, Deputy Commissioner, they tried to tell you what action to take during the protest; didn’t they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They tried to tell you what actions to take in policing during the protest ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did they not ask you -- they wanted you to take it over?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So the Clerk of the Privy council and you, Assistant Commissioner, did not have a phone call on February 3rd, 2022, recorded in your notes, where they said that “We need to take this over”?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Can I take you -- can we please bring up Document PB.NSC.CAN.00008073_Rel.0001? Okay. Now this is a copy of your notes, sir. There’s been a few -- there’s two copies of your notes. The one that my friends have been referring to in your summary statement, just so you’re aware, that’s Document 8073. This is the other set, or it's -- that was document 8074. There's another set and there's some highlighting that you've made in these notes and I'm going to take you to it. Beginning first we'll go right to the February 3rd note, which is on, my apologies, I believe it's 19. If we can go to page 19, please? All right. So begin at the top that says February 3rd. That's the note for the day.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we can scroll down, just a second here. Just keep going. If I can just have a moment?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And, sir, just for your understanding, this was the record we found that was deposited over the weekend. That's why I'm having a little trouble navigating it. Okay. Great. There's actually a second one. It's on page 19, I believe. That's the Mins call. But we'll start with this one. And this is the Minister's call at -- if you can scroll up? Right, so 12:30. And that's the Minister's call and I take it that the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Emergency Preparedness is on that call with you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So and there it states, "Question, Mendocino's observations." And "non-policing response seeing way more" -- or seeing way -- can you tell me what that says?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And "does not seem to be a plan. Must start with enforcement."
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So he tells you that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then Bill Blair, of course, that's the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, he's the former Chief of Police of Toronto; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he says, "[The] PM is increasingly concerned [about] how the City will deal with this." Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you agree that, you know, as a police officer, you're trained to take notes; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you take notes of the conversations and investigations contemporaneously during an investigation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you write down relevant material matters that you want to remember later in time; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it's fair to say that these things that you wrote down, this is what was said to you by those two Ministers; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And if we can scroll down to the next page, please? And this was already put in the other set of notes, but there I see that Minister Mendocino, he says to you that his colleagues feel unsafe going to the Hill. They feel -- is that harassed, or what ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- does that say?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and then what is it the second ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
"Counter Protest".
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay. So if we can keep scrolling down -- actually, I think I understand why I had it wrong the date I had with respect to when you had the meeting with the Clerk of the Privy Council. It's actually the 9th. So I'm going to take you down to February 9th. Let me just find that there. And that's 41, page 41. Yeah, so at the top there you see that's the date, the 9th, and it says, "Call with clerk".
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
0800. And that's the clerk of the Privy Council; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they -- you were there, "Flush[ing] out [...] financial[s] financial compensation, employee's business [and] PS" Are you referring there as Peter Sloly or Public Safety?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, it says ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So "feels organized". What's that word right after the period?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
"Ambassador Bridge". Want to just read it out for me?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So at the time, at least on February 9th, I take it that you thought the OPS was doing an okay job; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's February 9th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But they were making incremental ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the clerk responded to you that, "We need to take this over, do they know what this means"
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Right. But the Clerk of the Privy Council is the highest ranking civil servant in the entire federal apparatus; right? They're ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- the equivalent in provinces as what's called the DM, the Deputy Minister. She answers to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister alone; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so on February 9, she's telling you that the federal government and yourselves, the RCMP, have to take over.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then we'll scroll back up to the top, if I can. I'm just going to go through this in order. If we could go to page 11? So if you can scroll down there? And this is another briefing to the Ministers; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is that not what you're informing them, a police operational plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it not fair to say that throughout this protest, that the political executive and the executive branch of the federal government were asking you for operational plans and even asking you to give the operational plans of the OPS to them?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can I take you down now to page 25. And if we can just go to the top of page 25, the first thing. What meeting is this, "Pre meet SBE"?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is from the 5th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And if we can just scroll down to where it starts with OPP. And it states here: "OPP offered [its] legal expert worked Ipperwash hearing that the OPS is priority for political reasons." So is that the offer from OPP? Did they offer the RCMP legal counsel because of political interference concerns they had?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that's to help the RCMP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so the OPP had relayed to you that they had concerns with political interference.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, the Ipperwash proceeding was about that partly, and it's like one of the main things, and as I understand it, one of the main reasons that the political executive in Ontario wouldn't get involved in this matter because it was against the principles set down in Ipperwash and police independence. So the OPP is offering legal experts to deal with police independence, and so why would they do that if they didn't have a concern with political interference, sir?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, there's -- there is -- this is 113 pages of notes. I would like a little bit of extra time. These notes were not dealt with in the statement of the witness because there's a different set than the ones that the Commission had dealt with, which is 8074. These were not uploaded or provided to the parties until Remembrance Day, and we found them last night.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I understand the Commission wasn't able, in my view, to deal with these issues only because they were using another set of notes. And these notes are a contemporaneous outline and timeline of this witness's evidence of what happened. They are extraordinarily relevant material, and I would ask leave to be able to finish the examination.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They're not.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. If I could take -- then if I could ask this, I'll finish up. If we could go to page 38 of this document. And so this is another meeting. If we can scroll down. And it says "12:35, M3". I take it that's Marco Mendicino, that's the Minister you're calling M3?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And there, he's discussing about changing the posture when it comes to provincial engagement and what OPP can contribute, and then Blair goes on that it doesn't show how the Chief will -- essentially, based on not having a plan, in his opinion the Chief is not going -- the Chief of the OPS is not going to get the resources that he requires from the province. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So is he saying there to you that the plan from OPS, it is such that the Chief will not receive the resources he needs from other Ontario Police Services, that's what he tells you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And if we can scroll down to the next page, please? Who is the individual right there with Seamus, it says: "Concentrated effort to make this country look bad. Start to mid-terms." Who is that? Who is Seamus?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Minister O'Regan, okay. So he tells you that, I take it, that the convoy and the protesters are a concentrated effort to make the country look bad?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I'm almost finished, sir. If we could please go down to page 45, please. And scroll down. And there, you highlight that the: "President will be calling the PM. Pressure to seek additional resources." Is that -- who relayed that to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then just to page 49, please. If we can scroll down. So this is the meeting from the 10th of February with the Minister's briefing. Again, that's the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. And I take it that the Minister of Public Safety states to you that the intel they're getting is not sufficiently and timely -- is not sufficient or timely, and to stop the protests and setting this up. "View, what is the plan?" And "Different for convoy" -- can you read that last sentence there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then Minister Blair canvasses you: "Question if exercise some jurisdictional change..." Is that speaking to the policing, you're taking on a role; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And if we can scroll down, then, just to the next page. And this is the intel overview? Is this your words here or is it somebody else's?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And is it from -- it says OPP on the side. Would that -- would it be fair to say that's Commissioner Morris?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And was there anyone from the federal government at that meeting?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And the intelligence that Commissioner Morris provided you there is similar to what he's testified about before this Commission, was that these were normal people and they were essentially resentment to the Trudeau government for COVID measures and multiple groups, et cetera; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And -- so can I take you down to, this is February 11th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I will go, then, right to -- if we can go to page, the one with the -- I believe it's the 13th. You actually had notes of the IRG meetings, 65. If we go to 65, please. Well, 64 first. And there Minister Blair "discusses throwing Ottawa under the bus". That was your note?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I take it when you're saying Ottawa, he's talking about the Ottawa Police Service; is that fair? It's not the City of Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So his plan on that date is he's intending to throw Ottawa under the bus, being the OPS for any failures that have been dealt with, with respect to policing; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then can I just take you to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And if I can take you up to page 62, please? And there you wrote "Comment[...] PM". I take it that that's the Prime Minister? And it says, "Regarding RCMP they haven't done anything."
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And this will be the last note. So page 67, please. And this is from the 14th at 9 o'clock. This is the National Security Intelligence Advisor that you're meeting with, I take it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that's Jody Thomas?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it there that, for whatever reason, you're recording what she's saying. And there on one of the points, "measures put[...] out draconian. They will turn to us. Everyone is using their authority that's been given. RCMP taking advantage of authority." What was that about?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And from the -- and just for you, Commissioner Lucki, in ending this, it is a fact that in the ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can wait.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can wait. Go ahead.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's how I understood the evidence as well. So, Commissioner Lucki, you were present for both the February 13th IRG as well as the February 14th Cabinet meeting?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And -- well, yeah, and so the IRG meeting, they -- according to the text messages and the messages that we've reviewed, they never even asked you to speak?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the Minister never asked you what your opinion was with respect to whether or not there was a Section 2 CSIS Act security threat; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Whether or not there was a threat under Section 2 as defined in the CSIS Act, if there was a threat to the security of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And CSIS, you're aware, told him that there wasn't?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So if ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening. My name’s Brendan Miller and I am legal counsel for Freedom Corp. which represents the protesters that were just in Ottawa in January and February. I don’t represent anyone who was at Coutts.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But I have a few questions for you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we could please first bring up -- and I know my friend was trying to avoid investigative privilege and I have something that may assist and deal with that. Could we please bring up POE.HRF00000008. So sir, what this is is it’s a news article by a CBC journalist, Megan Grant and Rachel Ward and I understand in September of this year they brought an application and got access to some of the ITOs in the matter. And what this is is a summary of what’s in those ITOs. And for the folks at home, what that means is an Information To Obtain. It’s an affidavit, an application from a police officer to obtain a search warrant. So I'm wondering if we can just scroll through this and if you can tell me -- I’m not going to have to read it to you. Just if the facts in here are accurate. Because these are public facts and we don’t need to worry about any form of issue with privilege.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, maybe if I can, I guess, I was going to try just to avoid having to go through it. And I’ll see if this information I put to you, you can agree with. So I understand that for that operation that the undercover operation, there was a wire tap as well as a search warrant for the raids; is that about -- do you remember that, or you're aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And there was two undercover officers from the RCMP embedded with these individuals who were eventually arrested; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand that. And this is all from this article. I’m not taking it from anywhere else.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Understood. But it’s fair to say that the entire time with these individuals, almost from the get-go the RCMP knew about them and they were on it. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But from early February is it fair prior to their arrest, around February 5th, they were aware of these individuals. And the first one was arrested on the 13th, Mr. Lysak. And the remainder were arrested on the 14th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And can you give a date of when you did become aware of these individuals?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 9th of February, all right. And according to this article, the two undercover officers essentially interacted with these gentlemen in a bar and were able to gather intel and that led to the arrest and the raid on the house. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that’s the -- this article just outlines that and I understand the ITOs are actually publicly available so I’ll try to get those for the Commission so they just have a better understanding. I can probably get them from Alberta some time next week. If we can bring up PB.NSC.CAN.00003039_REL.0001. Okay. have you seen this document before?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, okay. So you're familiar then with respect to this document being a memorandum, I believe, from your legal department in March of 2020 with respect to the Emergencies Act but it’s not speaking about a public order emergency. It’s speaking about a public welfare emergency regarding COVID. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Could we please scroll down though? And to the second page, please. And the third page, and I apologize. All right. And I just want to take you to the role of the RCMP. And my colleague with the CCF touched on this a bit with the Commissioner. This summarizes it nicely and given us an internal document. There at the second point it states that under section 18(a) of the RCMP Act and section 14(1)(a) of the RCMP Regulations, RCMP members serving as peace officers have a duty to enforce the law. And it’s speaking to orders invoked under the Emergencies Act. So is it fair to say that -- and I know you haven’t been overly familiar with this document.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But when there was the invocation of the Emergencies Act, was it your understanding that the RCMP, due to the operation of section 18 of the Act, and then -- of the RCMP Act, and 14 of the RCMP Regulation, was compelled as a matter of duty and law to carry out enforcing the orders that were passed under the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the purpose that’s in there is that it’s explaining that section 18(a) of the RCMP Act and section 14 (1)(a) of the RCMP Regulations collectively require the duty to enforce the law. And when the order that is passed under the invocation is passed, that it’s at least implicitly that those two sections of the RCMP Act and the section of the RCMP Act and the Regulation compel the RCMP to carry out whatever is in those orders. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And with ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m going to move on. He’s answered the question. So you've been an RCMP officer pretty much your whole entire career, I take it. You didn’t have a second career before what you're doing.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’ve worked in -- you're essentially in the highest ranks of what you can do within the RCMP subject to becoming a full-time Commissioner like Ms. Lucki; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Could you opine at all or give us evidence that when a regulation or an order is passed by an executive branch of government, that requires certain things and certain conditions or puts restrictions on any area or individual, that due to the operation of section 18(a) of the RCMP Act and section 14(1)(a) of the RCMP Regulation that essentially the passer of that regulation or the passer of that order is able to direct what the police are to do.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll rephrase. Have you had situations arise where there is orders in council or regulations that dictate whether specifically or whether implicitly that the RCMP has to do something with regards to carrying out that regulation or with regards to carrying out the order in council?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it’s a very -- if there is an order or a regulation that would compel the RCMP to do something, that would be a very exceptional thing to interfere in the direction of policing. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's okay. Thank you very much.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller. We've corresponded before on other files, as you might recall. I'm Counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the representatives of the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February. Nothing to do with the border, sir. So I just wanted to get out some of the information with respect to the information that you gather internationally and that is given to the CBSA, if you don't mind, so if you can turn your mind to that. So Canada, of course, is a part of what they call the Five Eyes. Can you just sort of give an explanation of that for the folks at home?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And in the Five Eyes group and everything, a lot of the information that is gathered by the Five Eyes is provided to the CBSA for security purposes; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so -- and, of course, the Five Eyes, the United States, you get information from the agencies in the United States about any sort of threats that may exist both for Canada, but also for the United States, and that's essentially put into the CBSA's information bank and so that you have it with respect to people coming across the border; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it's fair to say that throughout the protest and at least based on disclosure, the agencies in the United States such as the FBI, et cetera, they did not provide the CBSA or the Five Eyes any form of information with respect to any threat to Canada; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But nothing to -- was brought to your attention as the President of the CBSA with respect to any sort of threat to Canada coming from the United States during the protest; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so of course you never relayed such information to Cabinet or to any of the political executive because you weren't given any?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And just to be clear, and I think my friend has made this clear, at no time did you advise Cabinet or provide information to Cabinet that there existed a Section 2 CSIS Act threat under the CSIS Act; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so is it within -- and we keep hearing that. We haven't had CSIS testify yet. All of the law enforcement agencies that have testified to date have said that that purview was solely up to CSIS. Is that your understanding of how it works?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So and if CSIS is the only agency providing that information and CSIS says there's no Section 2 Security Act threat, is it fair to say that Cabinet would have been never advised of any Section 2 CSIS Act threat?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When you were present, when you were dealing with the IRG, is it fair to say that no law enforcement agency, no intelligence agency within Canada advised the government that there was a Section 2 CSIS Act threat?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And during your dealings with the political executive, essentially, they have been stating in public that law enforcement agencies advised them that the threshold for invoking the Act was met, all right? What law enforcement agency advised them of that, to your knowledge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and neither are we. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, one of them wasn’t uploaded to the database until today. I just found it. The other two -- that’s fine. I don’t have any issue. If that -- these are, I think, important, so we just found them. Big database, sir. I don't have an issue with my friend talking to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Gentlemen, good afternoon. My name is Brendan Miller and I’m counsel to Freedom Corp, which represents the protestors that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. So I just want to begin first by bringing up an email. And it’s government document SSM.CAN.00004353_Rel.0001. And if we could scroll down to the last page? It’s in reverse order. Okay. And up -- I apologize. Up to the beginning, where the email starts. Okay. So this is an email from Ron Rienas. Are you familiar that he’s the GM of the Peace Bridge? He’s the general manager of the Peace Bridge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then the other individual who the email was sent to is Vance Badawey? And I take it you understand that Vance, by the way, is the Member of Parliament for Niagara Center?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And are you familiar with Tim Clutterbuck? He, I understand, is the recently retired president of AWS Steel? Are you familiar with him?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I want to go through this email with you briefly. And in it is some information about not the blockades, but as of January 27th, there the GM of the Peace Bridge advises that: “Yesterday border delays were 70 [to] 75 minutes entering Canada and trucks were queued across the Peace Bridge and [...] mile[s] up the I-190 in Buffalo. Truck processing times at Canada Customs have increased from 2 minutes [...] to 3 minutes per truck. While some truckers are leaving the industry because [of] the vaccination requirements, what is not being talked about is drivers quitting because of border delays that impinge on their hours of service requirements, onerous ArriveCan and PHAC requirements, [et cetera]. If they are not quitting the industry they are getting out of long haul cross border business and switching to only domestic routes. [And the] U.S. Bureau of Labour report[s] just released states that long haul trucking transportation cost in the U.S. have increased [...] 25%..." Do you agree with that statement as of January 22, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The one I just read to you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we can go through each one if you want. Which one -- actually, we'll just -- I'll do it this way. Which of these each statements don't you agree with?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But you have no reason to say that this email is not correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you haven't seen this email before today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And it states there under the link, if we can scroll down? It says, "Steps need to be taken immediately to reduce the processing time to pre- pandemic levels Rethinking the necessity of asking multiple health related questions as they are not being answered honestly anyway[s] and adding a field [of] a driver's Fast card to indicate vaccination status, are a couple [of] suggestions." Was that addition to a Fast card, was it ever implemented?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And if we can scroll down where it discusses ArriveCan and we'll just hop right to the points there beginning "as traffic returns". So there the GM of the Peace Bridge says, "as traffic returns to normal the longer processing times associated with ArriveCan and travellers not filing or [not filling or] improperly [filing] will result in border gridlock." Did that happen?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And it says there too, "ArriveCan is not a binational program like Nexus [and] Fast and is unknown in the U.S. meaning many American visitors will arrive at the border unprepared." Is that true?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What about the statement there that they state that these mandates essentially, "will adversely impact travellers, particularly the elderly, who do not have smart phones" Would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry, I might have skipped one.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, yeah, so will adversely ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So where it says, "will adversely impact travellers, particularly the elderly, who do not have smart phones"
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The essentially vaccine mandates and, as I understand from reading it, the essentially administrative process now put in place by the federal government in trying to cross the border.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But would you agree that it adversely impacted travellers, particularly elderly, who do not have smart phones. Can you agree with that statement?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Would you agree that the experience with the border from the general manager as he states is that, "...requirements that impose additional steps, more documentation, providing more information, create border delays, [and as a] results border avoidance" So avoiding going across the border. Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so if we can scroll up then to page number -- the one directly before the email because he's in reverse? Okay. And so in this email, I take it you know who these folks are. It's Mr. Badawey forwards the email to the following people, and that's to Minister Mendocino, the Minister of Public Safety. You know who he is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he also forwards it to Minister Alghabra, the Minister of Transport.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he's the Minister that you report to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he didn't pass this onto you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And but, you know, as the Deputy Minister of Transport, as the highest essentially civil servant within that Ministry, isn't this sort of information something important that you should know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can you agree that having this forwarded to you would have been of assistance in carrying out your duties as the Minister of Transport?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So in your evidence earlier today, you talked about the economic impact of the protest at the border; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. In all of that evidence, can you agree with me that most of it was hypothetical and that you haven't done an ex post facto analysis?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I understand that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you can agree that those things I just showed you from the GM of the Peace Bridge, those would also impact the issue with respect to being able to get across the border in a timely manner. People were quitting trucking because of delays. So does that -- that's an adverse impact; is it not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I thank you for your ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- I thank you for your answer.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you're familiar with the government agency Statistics Canada or Stats Can; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And Stats Can is the national statistic office, it's the agency that ensures Canadians have key information with respect to the economy. You understand that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And Stats Can comes under the Ministry of Innovation, Science and Industry, you're aware?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it's accountable to Parliament through that Minister, who's currently Minister Champagne; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. If I could please bring up POE.HRF00000009. So this document is a report done by Stats Can on Canadian International Trade, Merchandise Trade February 2020. And the key point that I want to take you to is -- I’ve highlighted. If we could roll down, please, to, I think it’s page 4. No, apologies. I will just get the right page for you. It is on PDF page 8. My apologies. Okay. And so there, they did a summary of their findings, and it says “Blockades at border crossings”, and I’ll just read that to you and then I’ll put the question to you. So: “In late January and February 2022, some border crossings between Canada and the United States were blocked by protesters, preventing the normal flow of goods between the two countries. According to Statistics Canada data, when combined, Canada's highway border crossings at the Ambassador Bridge (Ontario), Coutts (Alberta), Emerson (Manitoba), and the Pacific Highway (British Columbia) represent more than one-third of Canada's trade activity by road. Road transport accounts for more than half of Canada's trade with the United States. In customs basis figures for February, trade activity by road transport at these border crossings fell 8.8% compared with February 2021, with the Ambassador Bridge and Coutts crossings posting the largest declines. However, increased trade activity was observed at other crossings near the ones that were blocked, partly offsetting the decline in traffic. Overall, the blocked border crossings appear to have had little impact on the aggregate values of Canadian imports and exports in February.” Do you agree with that statement?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The statement I just gave from Statistics Canada, do you agree with it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, okay. So you agree with it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so have you seen this document before today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And when did you see it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I just got this document today and we uploaded it to the system. Why wasn’t this document provided when you produced your production in this matter? I’m just curious.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
April of 2022.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I only have so much time, so I’m going to try to move on. My last question has to do with TS.CAN.001.0000002_REL0001. So this is for your, Deputy Minister. So this document was uploaded by the Department of Justice just today, and I happened to just see it. What this is, is essentially a decision chart on whether or not to decide if there is what’s referred to a section 2 CSIS Act threat. And I understand you’re not an expert in this area, and I’m not going to put anything in here to you per se. But have you seen this document before other than today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Can you remember -- because you were at the IRG meetings and you dealt with this matter. Was this document provided to members of the IRG; do you know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you don’t recall seeing this during the IRG meetings.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And you can see there, and I want to put this to you -- you’re familiar in public administration and governance generally and deciding -- are you familiar with the OODA Loop?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The OODA Loop process. Are you familiar with it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. You’ve heard of that before?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Well, you’ll see in here it says identify, assess, decide, act, so it’s essentially the OODA Loop. And on the second part, it actually outlines what you have to do before you can move to the third. And it says, “Means and effect societal change”. In order to do a section 2 CSIS Act threat, it has to be a finding, according to CSIS or this document, “willingness to kill or inspire others to kill”; right? I take it during your IRG meetings you didn’t hear any evidence of the protestors in Ottawa with any specific persons saying that they were willing to kill or inspiring others to kill, did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning. My name's Brendan Miller, and I am counsel for Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. I have a few questions for the three of you, and hopefully we can get through this in the 20 minutes that I have. So first, I want to talk to you about money laundering and terrorist financing. You've kind of mentioned that previously. And of course, that's dealt with by the FINTRAC legislation; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you can agree with me that the protesters in Ottawa were not terrorists; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You have no information to the effect that they were terrorists; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you have no information that the protesters in Ottawa were laundering money. Isn't that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But Deputy Minister, you can agree that during the IRG meetings you were present?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And at no time during those meetings were you ever informed that any of the protesters in Ottawa were terrorists or were money laundering. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll rephrase. Between the dates of February 10 and February 14th, 2022, at no time were you informed that there was terrorists within the protesters in Ottawa; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I understand that, but I'm not asking that. I just want a yes or no. You were never informed that these individuals in Ottawa, between the dates of February 10th and February 14th were terrorists; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So the answer's no.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, so you have no information one way or the other. Let's make it clear, you were not informed, you were given no information that these individuals in Ottawa protesting were terrorists. Yes or no?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But was it not the -- I understand from the records that FINTRAC and the Ministry of Finance, based on a report in the media on January 25th, with respect to the crowdfunding, all right, that is what brought this to their attention and FINTRAC and the Department of Finance started to look at these individuals in Ottawa with respect to financing. Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that between February 10th and February 14th, no law enforcement official informed you that there was money laundering going on with respect to the protest in Ottawa; did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So and I think, you know, it's fair to say then that FINTRAC legislation and the legislation dealing with Paris financing and money laundering simply had no application to the protesters; did it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and I understand that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- before that protest and before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, there was no authority to do that; right? That's why you needed the -- you're saying that's why you needed this; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And but even if they were not crowd funding, et cetera, if there was terrorist financing and there was money laundering, then you could apply FINTRAC and the Criminal Code to crowd funding, right, without the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I want to talk to you a bit about some crowd funding. With respect to crowd funding, you can agree it's done by way of people donating to a fund online; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And people donate to that fund typically to support a cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- can you agree with me that some causes set up in crowd funding are set up for a political cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you agree that a protest on a government policy or legislation is a political cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And can you admit that the GoFundMe and the GiveSendGo for crowd funding set up by Ms. Lich and the protesters in Ottawa were a crowd fund set up to support a political cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We'll get into that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand that. But can you agree that when the GoFundMe was set up in January 14th, prior to the protest, prior to them arriving, that this GoFundMe and this crowd fund was set up to support a political cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree that the protests are a political cause?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so let me just put this to you. This is in one of the reports already that's - - overview reports that has been put in evidence, and I'm just going to read it to you and then ask you a question about it. But the original GoFundMe on January 14th as amended later and put into the overview report states this as the reason to donate. "To our fellow Canadians, the time for political overreach is over. Our current government is..." (As read)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. "Our current government is implementing rules and mandates that are destroying the foundation of our businesses, industries and livelihoods. Canadians have been integral to the fabric of humanity in many ways that have shaped the planet. We are a peaceful country that has helped protect nations across the globe from tyrannical governments who oppress their people. Well, now it has happened to us. We are taking our fight to the doorstep of the federal government and demanding that they cease all mandates against its people. Small businesses are being destroyed. Homes are being destroyed. And people are being mistreated and denied fundamental necessities to survive. It's our duty as Canadians to put an end to this mandate. It is imperative that this happens because if we don't, our country will no longer be the country we have come to love. We are doing this for our future generations and to regain our lives back. We are asking for donations to help with the cost of fuel, food and lodging, to help ease the pressure of this arduous task, but it's a small price to pay for our freedoms. We thank you all for donations and know that you are helping to reshape this once beautiful country back the way it was." (As read) So can you agree that premise that I've just read to you for seeking donations, I know it was speaking as a citizen, you can agree that that's asking for donations to support a political cause; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and that's a political cause.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And we're going to get into it. So you agree that many people donated to both the GoFundMe and the GiveSendGo; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know that those donations, based on what I've just said to you, were made on the premise of that statement. The money donated was to be used to support the protest; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- as the Deputy Minister of Finance, I'm sure you know that before the protesters even got to Ottawa, that on -- as of January 25th, the GoFundMe had already raised more than $4.5 million. You know that; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I take it you are aware and had some discussion that donations to political causes are a form of freedom of expression as protected under Section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Did you -- were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And were you aware that donations to a political cause have been interpreted and continue to be interpreted by the highest court as being part of freedom of expression; were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that. But the making of the donation, right, you make a donation under the auspices that it's going to be used for the cause; right? That's when the -- that's how the donation, why the donation is made. You can agree with that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so when the Government interferes with what is to be done with those funds, do they not -- can you not agree that it interferes with those donor's freedom of expression? Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and we've been having some trouble in establishing what that is, and we're going to get into that. But I'm going to move on to another part. This Commission has heard evidence that the money from GoFundMe, all right, you talked about it being frozen, it was frozen following a request at a meeting between the City of Ottawa; the Municipality, the Mayor; and the Ottawa Police Service. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you said it was relevant to -- you said it was relevant, just in your own testimony.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, no, no.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Let me finish my question, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, let me just finish my question. You had said it was relevant that GoFundMe on their own accord froze these accounts; right? You just said to that, they obviously saw an issue, and you said that just in your evidence while I was examining you. So I'm going to ask you a little bit about; okay? And you can agree with me that the City of Ottawa, the Ottawa Police Service, their government entities, that's not debatable. Right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, I know, but they're - --
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. But you can agree that they are government entities, they are provincial and municipal government entities; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you're thinking about civics ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- because that's part about what this case is about. Can you agree that when a municipal government or a mayor of a city or municipal police service, like the Ottawa Police Service, requests of a bank, or GoFundMe in this instance, to freeze funds that that is government action. Can you agree with me on that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Where a government entity requests a fund or requests a bank or an institution to freeze private funds of donations, of private bank accounts, or anything like that, or they make that request, and it's from the government, is that a government action?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take, to your knowledge, that there's no legislative authority that you know of, federally or provincially, that would authorise a municipality or a police force to make such a request?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So, sir ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, the mandate of this Commission is to look at the circumstances surrounding the invocation. I understand what the Government did, we're trying to find out why. Okay? So let me ask you again, to your knowledge, I take it that you know that there is no legislation in Ontario or federally, all right, that would authorise a municipality or a police force to request an institution, a bank, GoFundMe to freeze accounts. Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You're saying that you have nothing ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you understand financial legislation, do you not? You understand that legislation governs your Ministry; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. and then you also look at the legislation in provinces, and you try to make them interact and work together. Is that not fair? Cooperative federalism, I'm sure you've heard that principle.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So if that's the case, then why did they even ask you to come to the IRG? Why?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that. I'm not trying to cut you off, but I'm just trying to stay under my time limit. So here's the thing, on February 10th, the IRG minutes that we do have, that are unredacted, the Prime Minister advises we have two tracks. He went into it with two tracks. The first was to use general legislative authority, and the second track was to use the Emergencies Act. All right? And I take it -- and there was tasks. We have that evidence. Tasks were given to your Ministry, tasks were given to other ministries. I can you with respect to the options that were being put forward outside of the Emergencies Act, we don't know what those were because the Government has claimed solicitor/client privilege and section 39 Cabinet confidence, so I have no idea. But I take it that there had been enquiries with your Ministry between February 10th and February 14th about what legislation could be used in order to deal with the crowdfunding.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, but -- and sir, I understand you're asking me questions, but if we're both asking questions ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I get it. I understand. But if we're both asking questions none of us will have answers. So let me just ask the questions and we'll go on; all right? So I want to talk to you now about the legislative change versus regulations and Orders in Council really quickly. And can you agree ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir. Two points. The legislative change versus regulations. You said you couldn't deal with this by way of regular legislation through Parliament. Why?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But you can agree that the legislative process with Parliament as a whole is far more democratic than a meeting in Cabinet that's essentially in-camera and privileged, it's -- there's no debate from opposing parties, these things are then just passed by the Executive; right? Like it's -- it doesn't represent input from the rest of Parliament; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. But you can agree that in invoking the Emergencies Act, Parliament, via that legislation lays out criteria that have to be met to invoke it; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the documents to date show that because they were able, the NDP -- okay I’m going to ask, and we’ll deal with this last question, the NDP, before the debate even took place, had already agreed to support the motion. Okay. That’s in evidence. The question is this. So they support the motion. It goes to the Senate. They get indication that the Senate is not going to vote in their favour, so they pull it. In my submission to you, that’s the Parliamentary process; right? Because if there was no grounds to invoke it and the Senate was going to revoke it, that’s a good process; isn’t it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Didn’t think you would. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller and I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protestors that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. I have a few questions for you, and hopefully we’ll be able to get through them. Ma’am, you had just mentioned, and I’m glad you did, the rule of law. What’s your understanding of the rule of law?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree with me that the rule of law applies to you and it applies to the executive and the elected executive of the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Would you agree with this that the rule of law conveys a sense of orderliness and executive accountability, the legal authority and vouches safe a stable predictable and ordered society in which citizens and residents may conduct their affairs. It requires that government power or any authority delegated by Parliament must be exercised pursuant to valid laws, either directly or indirectly permitted by an Act of Parliament. Do you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, you can agree with me that your position, your office -- and I’ll call it your office -- the National Intelligence and Security Advisor, it’s not been created by an Act of Parliament, has it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you have no statutory mandate.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you’ve also got no legal powers yourself.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it you've never been an Intelligence Officer with CSIS or within the Intelligence community; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you've never been an Intelligence analyst with CSIS or in the Intelligence community; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you said in your evidence that you didn’t feel that you were getting the proper intelligence or updated intelligence from law enforcement or from CSIS, or weren’t getting enough of it; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you were satisfied with the intelligence you received from CSIS?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And CSIS specifically told you and Cabinet that there was no Section 2 CSIS Act threat posed by the protest or posed by any of the actions going on throughout Canada at the time; did they not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you tell me how? Because I can put up the statement and the reports because that’s what it says.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the thing is is you agree with me that the CSIS Act, the meaning of security threat to Canada is incorporated directly into the Emergencies Act, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I don’t know how that could be but we can agree to disagree. But you agree that the Emergencies Act on its own reading -- and I put this to the Deputy Minister. You understand that it requires reasonable grounds that a Section 2 CSIS Act threat exists.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s what it says.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand. So you’re saying that the CSIS Act and section 2 of the CSIS Act which is incorporated into the Emergencies Act means something different when you’re looking at it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what do you mean?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that. But you do agree that the four grounds of types of threats in section 2 of the CSIS Act. are what is in fact required to have been found.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it can go beyond what the Act says which is a threat to the security of Canada.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But not in the legislation.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s not what it says. But you can agree with me that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I understand that. So let’s go through then just what section 2 of the CSIS Act says and I’ll just ask you a couple of questions about the grounds. And we’ve already heard from every law enforcement official as well as we have the statements from CSIS in evidence that they didn’t have reasonable suspicion that any of this was taking place. So I take it that you can agree with me that you didn’t have any evidence with you before Cabinet or even considered of any espionage or sabotage against Canada that is detrimental to the interests of Canada or activities directed towards or in support of such espionage or sabotage; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so that -- there was no evidence of that that you considered ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- in your assessment. And you could agree with me that there’s no evidence of foreign influenced activities within or related to Canada that are detrimental to the interests of Canada or clandestine or deceptive, or involve a threat to any person; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. By email and Twitter, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But that’s up to the police to deal with or is that a national emergency?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can we please bring up Document TS.NSC.CAN.00100000206_REL0001? Apologies, just a second. Wrong one. I’ll just say the end numbers. Same forward -- 159_REL0001. Okay. So I take it that you're familiar with the CSIS assessment that they provided on the Freedom Convoy in downtown Ottawa, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, okay. And their assessment was this and at the beginning you see: “Downtown Ottawa […] was actually quite festive -- not threatening to a passerby. Some criminal acts did occur -- law enforcement.” And again you've said you’re not an Intelligence Officer, you don’t have any training as an Intelligence analyst, so I take it you rely on CSIS for intelligence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And then the RCMP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then the Canadian Border Services Agency?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then you also have the Canadian security establishment?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, okay. None of those people provided you intelligence that there was a section 2 CSIS Act threat.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So let’s scroll down if we can. And you’ll see in there with respect to the flags -- now, I take it there was concern with these flags that there was a couple of flags that were seen that were inappropriate and that was one of the reasons why there was a consideration of ideological motivated violent extremism. You can see there that I understand that their report is: “A very small number of more inflammatory flags, Confederate, Nazi, swastika, III%, Punisher (based on the 1974 […] comic book hero) and Quebec Patriote flag…” And then they say that: “A random flag is just a flag until the reason the person holding it explains why. Flags can have multiple meanings and are routinely co-opted by various groups/ individuals. No way of connecting those views holding flags with any online content. The presence of the III% flags, for example, does not necessarily mean that members of the III% are in attendance.” And that was the intelligence you were given.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So what you mean, “intelligence that can be released”? So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand that. But why don’t we scroll down. Now, this is important. And you know that CSIS does in fact -- because there’s no reason -- you don't need a law to look at what's online or open source intelligence, that it's open source intelligence. Anybody can look at it without a law authorising it. Can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, ma'am, again, this -- there is no privacy interest for Canadians on things they post online. They can -- anybody can go on and read it; right? You know that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Around its distribution.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that's why ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that's why we have units in the RCMP that do that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you have the, I believe it's called the IMCT -- IMCIT Unit. They -- that's all they look at, is they look at online violent rhetoric and assess it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so what -- for violent rhetoric. What are your other purposes other than criminal purposes?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what are you looking for? Are you looking that the government without warrants is allowed just to go in and look into metadata?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- here's the thing ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that's good. So -- and we agree that we should follow legal frameworks.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you agree we should follow the legal framework in the Emergencies Act; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then, can I just show you that part up there? You -- CSIS assessed this, and ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Freedom Convoy 2022. It's an assessment of CSIS. I believe it's been referred to in the statement. It's from your production. I assume that it's relevant material.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. But I understand that, and the witness has accepted that this is one of the assessments that was before Cabinet. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. So the -- CSIS had assessed: "The anonymity of the online space allows individuals to post commentary that they would not normally say in public. Many of the posts in this space are best articulated as 'shitposting'. Confirmation bias - strategic analysis must be driven by direct evidence collection and assessments as opposed to a reliance on social media posting [lacks] context and where the poster bias may not be considered." So that had been given to you by CSIS, and do you not agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I'm just going to run over very briefly what I understand your position is, and your position as National Security Advisor. I've managed to find the policy with respect to your position. So if you can agree with the following, this is what you are to do: "The National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to Cabinet assists the Clerk and provides information, advice, and recommendations to the Prime Minister as follows: As Associate Secretary to Cabinet, he or she can act on the Clerk's behalf on any of the policy and operational issues that come before the Privy Council. As National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister, he or she ensures the effectiveness, or the effective coordination of Canada's security and intelligence community, and together, with the Deputy Minister's of National Defence, is responsible for the communication security establishment. The National Security Advisor also oversees the provisions of intelligence assessments to the Prime Minister, other Ministers and senior government officials. The National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister is supported by two secretariats via the foreign and defence policy advisors to the Prime Minister, Security and intelligence and international assessment staff." (As read) That's what your job is.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you are not in the business, or your department is not supposed to be in the business of actually collecting intelligence yourself.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But I thought you had said that it was looked at you were setting up your own bureau, or what have you, to look at online rhetoric and do your own open source intelligence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But why would you need that outside of the Civil Service, who are governed by legislation, that collect intelligence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And -- but the Foreign intelligence Service, like the International Assessment Staff and Foreign Intelligence Service, you had the information from them, I take it, when you made -- when Cabinet made this decision, did you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And domestic intelligence was being assessed by the RCMP.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. CSIS.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Canadian Security Intelligence ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And they also look at domestic intelligence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So how is -- why is what the RCMP does, already doing that with their reports, they have two sets, they have the IMVE assessments online, they have the ONSET assessments online, why is that not good enough for you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And it's your job, according to this description, to effectively coordinate all of that anyway.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How about this: What if they just got rid of your position and left it to the Director of CSIS to do what you do?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But it's nothing passed by Parliament. Right? Parliament decides ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that. But you can agree that Parliament has given you no mandate to do that with respect to intelligence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Parliament? So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I -- here you go, yes or no: Does –- has parliament via a statute, giving you, the National Security Advisor and the Privy Council, authority to collect and then analyze intelligence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, the Democracy Fund is going to go first. I just need to get some things done, if that’s okay?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name's Brendan Miller and I am Counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the corporation and entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February 2022. So first, again, you've said you were at all of the IRG meetings, correct, and that you were at all of the -- or at the Cabinet meeting on the 13th?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And I understand in your position as essentially Assistant Deputy Minister and as a bureaucrat within government, there is times that you have to interpret legislation; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But and you -- you, again, you do it yourself at times; right? You, within your Ministry, because it's -- you agree that there's legislation sets out what you can do and what you can't do; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And can you agree in this circumstance, you're aware that the Emergencies Act requires for its invocation for there to be a finding that there to be a threats to the security of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you agree with me that a threat to the security of Canada in the Emergencies Act, from your understanding, has the same meaning as it does in Section 2 of the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can I please ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- bring up document COM00000739 please? It's just one of the Commission documents actually. Okay. Can we scroll down, please? Scroll down. Scroll down. And scroll down. There we go. Thank you. Okay. This is one of the Commission documents, and I just want to know if this is your understanding and was your understanding at the time; okay? This is something that the Commission has wrote. And it says, "Threats to the security of Canada has the same meaning assigned as Section 2 of the Canadians Security Intelligence Act." (As read) Do you have any reason to disagree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you ever advised that that was the case prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not saying whether by a lawyer. What about CSIS, the RCMP, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or Canadian Security Intelligence Establishment, all of the other civil servants outside of the DOJ, did they ever advise you of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You in a group of people?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So can I ask this question? Outside of the National Security Intelligence Advisor yesterday, where you heard her advising that there is going to be legal argument that this means something different than it says, and then there was going to be -- no one seems to be able to answer this. You understand, though, that to invoke an emergency under the Emergencies Act that you can only do so if certain legal requisites under that Act are met. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And can you agree that many ministers have stated in public that law enforcement, law enforcement advised them that the threshold to invoke the Act was met? Have you heard them say that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. We have not heard, we've heard all of law enforcement so far testify, and it doesn't appear that anyone in law enforcement advised them that the threshold to invoke the CSIS Act was met. Do you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And just for my last point, Coutts; right? The arrests that were made at Coutts, those were done solely by the local `contracted-by-the-province Alberta RCMP. They weren't at a national level; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And those arrests at Coutts and the operations that they were carrying out in arresting those individuals for conspiracy to commit murder and et cetera, you didn't know about that, and Cabinet didn't know about that until after the Act was invoked. Isn't that true?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it's fair to say that the things that you were a party to, you didn't know about the undercover operation in Coutts or the individuals there, what they were up to?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But no one advised you that it was such a threat as to be serious violence or terrorism or violent extremism that would meet the threshold in the CSIS Act; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, those are my questions. And sir, I think I have quite a bit of time left. I would like to cede that time to the Province of Alberta.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m sure, sir, you’re not talking about little old me.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, and soon to be good evening. My name’s Brendan Miller and I am legal counsel to Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February 2022. I have 20 minutes to question you, so that would bring us to 4:48 when I’m done, and hopefully I don’t have to ask for a little more time. So I’m going to begin with yourself, Assistant Deputy Clerk, Ms. Drouin, and I’d better -- if you’d like to answer in French, I can get one of the things from my friend, but I’ll ask these and, if you’re going to answer in French, please let me know and I will put on the translation equipment because, unfortunately, I am sans bilingual at this time, but I’m working on it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So, Mr. Drouin, prior to becoming the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council, you were the Deputy Minister of Justice and the Deputy Attorney General of Canada; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you’re a lawyer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you’ve been a member of the Quebec Bar since 1992?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in fact, would you agree, you’re an award-winning lawyer?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I’m not -- I’m not trying to pump your ego but in 2009 you were named the Business Legal Advisor of the Year by La Monde Juridique; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did I pronounce it correctly?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, good. And in 2012, I understand you were awarded the Lawyer Erasmus, which is hyphenated Ad.E by the Quebec Bar, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And from 2012 to 2016, you were the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General for the Government of Quebec?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then from 2016 to 2017, you were the Senior Associate Deputy Minister of Justice for the Government of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then, from 2017 to 2021, you were the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney of Canada, so for four years?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you can agree with me that that position, the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, is the highest-ranking position within the Department of Justice?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. You answer to the Attorney General of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And now, while you were in that office, you probably described your role of the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada as follows. And I just want to know if you agree with this. " I’d like to begin by describing my dual role as the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada. I’ve been in this position since June 2017. In both these roles, I support the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada in fulfilling his or her responsibilities. My duties include giving legal advice and coordinating the legal advice given by the Department of Justice and supporting the development of legislation." (As read).
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So in your role as the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, you advised on how to draft legislation for four years?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know from that former role that when you’re drafting definition in legislation, they’re very important?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And would agree with the following statement, which, full disclosure, I took from the drafting policy from DOJ. "Deliminating definition: A deliminating definition is exhaustive. It is intended to set limits on otherwise ordinary meanings of terms. These definitions normally begin with the word “means”.” Would you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you can agree with me that in legislative drafting, that where there’s a definition and that definition states “this means” and then is followed by a set of factors or what it includes, you’re aware that that is intended to be exhaustive? That’s Parliament’s intention? You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you know, and you can agree, that the purpose when you’re drafting is to try and carry out the intent of Parliament?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you know that section 2 of the CSIS Act, prior to listing what constitutes a threat to the security of Canada, states “Threats to the security of Canada means…” and is then followed by the four threats? Fair? You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know that under section 12 of the CSIS Act, that in order for CSIS to open an investigation, CSIS has to conclude reasonable grounds to suspect that a person or group is carrying out activities constituting a threat to the security of Canada, as defined in section 2?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you know, and we talked about this, that the Emergencies Act, it states that threats to the security of Canada has the meaning assigned by section 2 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act; right? You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know that under the doctrine of consistent expression, that where there is an adoption by reference, it’s to mean the same thing as the primary legislation? You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And to your knowledge, from what you know, what do you know about Parliament’s intention for a threat to the security of Canada in the Emergencies Act to mean something different from a threat to the security of Canada as defined in the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I understand. But you are aware that both the CSIS Act, as well as the Emergencies Act, were passed within just a few years of one another in the 80s?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it that you know that one of the reasons that they adopted section 2 of the CSIS Act, Parliament did, was to limit the Executive Branch of Government from declaring public order emergencies? You’re aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in the Emergencies Act, it requires the Governor in Council to have reasonable grounds, you know this, that there is a public order emergency? Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you know that in the Emergencies Act, it actually states that a public order emergency arises from a threat to the security of Canada that is so serious as to be a national emergency? You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you also know that in order to invoke the Act, there has to be reasonable grounds, and that includes a threat tot eh security of Canada; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that threat the security of Canada is as defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So let’s talk about that. Can you agree with me that there was not reasonable grounds of a threat to the security of Canada as defined in the CSIS Act and adopted by reference to the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So let’s go through those grounds; okay? So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, and let me ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So then we can throw out any other grounds, it’s fair to say, ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- other than 2(c)?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So foreign -- or sorry, apologies: “activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious [and] ideological objective within Canada or a foreign state…” So that is the ground. And that is the single ground, from your understanding, of why the Emergencies Act was invoked?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So let’s talk about threats of acts of serious violence -- and acts of serious violence. Can you summarize for me the threats of acts of serious violence that the invocation was based upon?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t mean to interrupt. I just -- I only have so much time left.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So I just want to talk to you about first, you had mentioned the IMVEs, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you can agree with me that an IMVE, it's not just somebody who's radical or whatever; there has to be an element of violence?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a threat of or ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- because -- and I understand. So these IMVEs that the government went on about, first, we've already established that the government wasn’t aware of the individuals in Coutts at the time of the invocation that were arrested by the local police department?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But of course, Commissioner Lucki and her people, they were aware of what was going on, they just couldn't tell you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you're now aware -- I'm sure you've heard the evidence that they, in fact, as of the February 9th, had two undercover officers embedded with these gentlemen. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and these gentlemen that they were going after, they were actually local to the Coutts area. You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you agree with me that the facts of that was that that issue was dealt with locally by police under provincial mandate via the agreement that Alberta has with the RCMP?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. It was carried out under that, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So it was provincially dealt with? You agree it was dealt with well?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so let's move to Ottawa. Ottawa, IMVEs in Ottawa. I understand that CSIS advised that they had no concern with IMVEs in Ottawa, and that’s what's in evidence. Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so CSIS did a threat assessment of the convoy, and we saw it yesterday, and I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm going to ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Of Ottawa, of Ottawa. And let me bring that up. And it is the document ending -- or it's TS.NSC.CAN.001.00000159_REL_0001. Now -- and we've all reviewed this. I've put it to folks and I don’t want to have to read it to you. But in this assessment and also in the statement from Director Vigneault, they concluded there was no CSIS threat, reasonable suspicion of a CSIS threat in downtown Ottawa. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know that CSIS only needs to have a suspicion, a reasonable suspicion, to open an investigation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Reasonable grounds to suspect? Reasonable grounds to suspect; that’s what it says. You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the difference between that and the grounds to invoke a national emergency is that you know under the Emergencies Act, it requires reasonable grounds. You know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know, as the former highest-ranking lawyer and legal officer within the Government of Canada, that reasonable grounds to suspect is a lesser threshold than reasonable grounds or referred to as reasonable and probable grounds. You are aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, so ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
An activity.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s an activity.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Madam, I understand what you're saying, but you're saying that you want to look at the group as a whole? All right. And so I've asked you about Coutts. That was taken care of. I've asked you about Ottawa, all right? You knew that the group, the assessment was that it did not meet that. Now Windsor. Can you agree with me that there was no section 2 CSIS Act threat with respect to Windsor?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So let me just move over to Windsor. Can you agree with me that you are aware of no section 2 CSIS Act threat with respect to Windsor?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Let me try and rephrase it this way. What evidence and what information of violence at Windsor were you aware of when the Act was invoked?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you for answering my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before we begin, I’d just like to ask leave to use a certain document. I believe your counsel’s been advised of this. I’ve put together an examination aid for the purpose to save time. The documents in the examination aid I will be tendering into evidence, however, not the examination aid itself. The purpose of the examination aid so that I don’t have to wait to go through each and every document one by one by one and waste the 15 minutes I have. I’ve compiled the records into a Word and PDF document that I’m referring to with the footnotes of each and every one that have been assigned the numbers in the database system and I would like leave to be able to refer to that document while I’m doing my examination, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the most part I had to because I am somewhat inept when it comes to using Microsoft Word. I had to take screenshots of a couple in order to actually put them in, but they are in in full.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it’s just there is a couple of things summarizing the facts. If we want, I can delete every single one of them.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what we can do, sir, is that if my friend -- if he has the document, if there’s issues as they arise before I move to the next page of each one, I will check with my friend to make sure that he feels it’s fair.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There’s no ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There -- it was documents, but I state the fact and the document for putting -- it’s not anything other than the fact, but as I said, I can delete that if the Court would like. And if you give me five minutes before I start, I’ll delete all of that and just send the documents with the date, if that works for the Court -- or for the Commission.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can do that, sir. If I can have simply two minutes, I think, I can do that and send it around to everybody, and it will just have the date at the top.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Lesser version of the one we sent earlier and took out everything except simple facts. There’s some documents that are such that I can’t just copy and paste them into a document, they’re PDFs and things, so I had to type them out, but they’re verbatim. So if my friend wants me to refer to each and every document, which I’ve now made it simple as well, I’ve had all of them uploaded in one PDF; the Clerk has them on standby. As we go through, I have no problem deviating from this at all and going through the document, but I would like to finish the examination, at least, if I’m forced to do that, in order to get through these records. These records, there’s -- in my view, I would submit, as we go through, that there’s simply no issue with the facts stated herein.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had that uploaded just now. So I got them -- all of them consolidated and put into one PDF so that I can stop wasting ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we can if we want. It’s just going to have to -- I have to navigate it. So -- because it’s not exactly labelled completely great. So I guess we could -- can we use that? Yeah, we can use that, sure.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Great, okay. Time begin now?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They’re all the ones that I -- document that I’ve given you already. The one that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pretty much, yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All of those are in relativity because that document is in relativity. So if we could pull up the document, and I just don’t want to run out of time.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So if I can first -- Director, does CSIS have a concern with the current elected executive leaking information and CSIS information to the media? Do they have a current concern about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not specific. Does CSIS have a concern generally about the current political executive leaking information from CSIS to the media?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So -- but I take it the unauthorized disclosure, it’s highly unlikely it’s actually coming from your agency; it’s not coming from them directly, is it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. If we could go to the January 24th tweet of Mr. MacGregor? Or, sorry, the January 25th one of Althia Raj; 14, number 14.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I think the hyperlinks didn’t carry through when we uploaded; unfortunately, that happens sometimes. That’s why I wanted to use my sheet. Well, in any event, sir, I’m just going to ask you; I want to bring up, then, the document -- just a second. I’ll just bring it up on the normal document, relativity. And, sir, I’m going to have to ask for more time. I tried to get this dealt with, and if I was permitted to use the examination sheet that my friend’s trying to stop me from, I wouldn’t be in this position.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And that’s also at page 17 of the document that I had put up. So actually, if you want to bring -- you can do that. So sir, do you see that, that tweet there? It’s from the 25th, it’s retweeting the January 6th event narrative that had been released in the media prior to the convoy arrive?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Okay. Did you know that that tweet is what resulted in the political executive essentially becoming concerned with the convoy and having internal discussions about the narrative they were going to build; were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I’m going to take you to -- and, sir, I have them consolidated; they’re the text messages between Mary-Liz Power and the -- as well as Alexander Cohen. They’re verbatim in my examination aid; there’s nothing added. If I could bring up the examination aid, please, again, and I can use that, and we can just scroll to where it starts with Mary-Liz Power? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, then I’ll read it to him. Okay? Verbatim. So on January 25th at 9:22 a.m., Mary-Liz Power issues a policy advisory to the Office of the Prime Minister. They have a text message exchange with Alexander Cohen, the Director of Communications to the Minister of Public Safety, okay? And it begins when that tweet is sent. They send it out, all right? And Mary-Liz power sends that text to Alexander Cohen and states: “I’m sure you’ve seen this but flag it.” (As read) ... Alexander Cohen responds: “Yup. I’ve been encouraging journalists to take a closer look at who these people are [and where their 3 mil comes from]. Obviously, a light touch given the portfolio.” (As read) Then Mary-Liz Power states: “Hmm, do you know if there’s anything to be found in that GoFundMe?” (As read) And Alexander Cohen replies: “I think it’s worth looking into. I’ve put Mary Wolfe (phonetic) on it...” (As read) Highlighted -- well, it was highlighted: “...and she’s obsessed with this kind of stuff.” (As read) Mary-Liz Power replies: “Nice. I’ll look into what I can do.” (As read) Now, can you agree with me, from an intelligence perspective, that those are two staffers building a political narrative with respect to a national security issue?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. That’s fine. And then, later that day, at 12:02 p.m., Mary-Liz Power and Alexander Cohen exchange further text messages, all right? So Mary-Liz Power states: “Got a quick response. People are into it. LMK [meaning ‘let me know’] if your boss is too. Happy to help however I can. This is what I sent, though, by the way.” (As read) And this is the -- whoever she sent it to, with respect to the narrative: “Hi, I just had a chat with Alex at PS, who had a bit of an interesting idea. As you saw in the pod goal’s chats, the trucker convoy and some of their more extreme comments, [i.e. calling for a January 6-style insurrection] are getting more coverage in media. Alex was surveying where there’d be interest in his boss [that’s the Public Safety’s Minister] doing some media on this eventually. He was chatting with Mendicino about right before he went into the Cabinet retreat. I think there could be an opportunity in getting in on the narrative of the truckers, particularly with the research that the LRB is doing into their backers. My thoughts of framing here would be similar to what the PM and Blair said last year when January 6 occurred; our democracy is something we need to nurture and protect every day. We will always protect the right to peaceful protest. Some calls that organizers of these events are making are concerning and we’re taking them seriously [we’d need something to back this up]. Will continue to monitor the situation closely, and the fine line to walk would be to ensure we are not looking like we’re directing the police, which obviously is not the goal here. Hoping to canvas your thoughts. Alex said he’d come back to me with a proposal this aft when he gets to chat to Mendicino again, and obviously pending his boss in our interests in looking into this further.” (As read) Mr. Cohen responds: “Thanks. I had an initial chat with my boss and he’s supportive but wants to wait a day or two. There’s a danger that if we come down too hard they might push out the crazies.” (As read) Mary-Liz Power replies: “I think that’s fair. Apparently Global and others are working on stories. Maybe we see how those land.” (As read) Now, I’m going to ask the same question again. At that point, are there a bunch of political staffers essentially planning to create a national security issue, or make one look like it is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So are you aware of the LRB, what it is? You are, aren’t you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Liberal Research Bureau.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so is it fair to say that it’s kind of strange that the political branch would have the Liberal Research Bureau doing research on protesters with respect to these concerns they’re raising, as opposed to yourselves who are the National Security Agency?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can we go to document SSM.CAN.00006358_REL.0001? Okay. Can we just scroll to the bottom, to the first email, please? Okay. So this email is from January 27th, okay? And it’s an email between, again, more political staffers. It begins with Caroline Williams, she’s the Director of Parliamentary Affairs at the Privy Council; you’re aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what about Zita Astravas, the Chief of Staff to the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, Bill Blair, do you know her?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And Annie Cullinan, she’s with the Privy Council as well; are you familiar with her?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So in this email -- and again it’s January 27th, 2022 at 4:21 p.m. -- you’re aware that the protesters in Ottawa hadn’t really even arrived at that time, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there it says to ML, that’s Mary-Liz: “[I] Wanted to reach out on the current [issue] lead [sic] situation for the convoy. Given how this is transitioning into a whole-of- government coordination response, I feel like...Emergency Preparedness we a are well-positioned office to provide more of [a] high-level messaging going forward. Public Safety of course has a major role to play when it comes to the RCMP, CSIS, and IMVE threats, but we have a helpful perspective on the whole-of-government coordination + collaboration with other levels of government. These are [the] lines we worked up earlier today. Any thoughts on if this is a helpful approach? Convoy - Emergency Preparedness.” Then it says: “Our government recognizes and respects that everyone in Canada has [the] right to safe and peaceful protest. Threatening acts of violence and inciting hatred, as we have seen from a select few in recent days, is unacceptable and does not reflect the views of the majority of Canadians. We condemn all such hateful and violent rhetoric in the strongest terms. As is common with any significant gathering with...potential impact[s] on government operations, such as the annual Canada Day [celebration], law enforcement and security agencies across all levels of government are engaged [in coordinating] to ensure a safe event.” Now, do you recognize the phrases and the sentences in the first three bullet points? Have you heard them somewhere before?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you -- do you recall the Prime Minister’s speech on January 31st? Do you recall him, when he was in isolation, he came out and gave a speech on January 31st about the protest; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s what he said.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So he said -- can you agree with me, that writing out a narrative like this, prior to the protest even arriving, and then on the January 31st, despite the fact -- and this is evidence -- there had been no real actual violence in Ottawa, he says these things; do you find that concerning?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As an intelligence officer, as an intelligence agency; that there’s a narrative being built ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- for an emergency, before the purported thing creating the emergency has even taken place.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And let me ask you this; the biggest concern, it appeared, was over the first weekend of the protest. There was the appearances of Confederate flags and Nazi flags and Nazi symbols; right? Did you investigate those issues at all?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Yeah. If -- Mr. Clerk, if you could just go back to my examination aid. This shouldn't be an issue. It's at paragraph 16. Just scroll right down to it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And if we can go to paragraph 16.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, but I'm going to ask for a ruling on the Commissioner to put this page to them. So let's deal with that if we can. So if we can put up page 16 again.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Or paragraph 16, is just the two pictures of the first post in time at 10:13 a.m. on January 28th, 2022 of the spotting of a Confederate flag. And so -- and there's also a licence plate number. If you'd like me to go through and bring up all of the documents I'm just trying to get this done quicker, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, but I'm ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is so important, sir, that I need more time to get through this area. It is extraordinarily important.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We're not putting up page 16.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So sir, this is my first understanding that this was the first post in time that I can find with respect to when a Confederate flag or a Nazi flag appeared, and it's at 10:13 a.m. on January 28th of 2022. And it's posted by Ariel Troster. Do you know who she is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She's -- you're not aware that she's the new councillor that replaced Councillor McKenney?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so -- then, if I could just bring up the closer photo with respect to the licence plate, please, and that actually is at page 43 of the examination Book of Authorities. That'll just be easier for you, Mr. Clerk.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So -- and it's been clear. So online that licence plate number is BL, then it's got a crown in the middle, is three, and I can literally tell you what it is, and people were trying to look it up. It's viewable. Did at any time CSIS do an investigation into who that licence plate holder was?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so the next document, then, would be the -- one second please. The document is the one that comes after in the examination aid, and it is the January 29th, being POE.HRF.000000024.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. So the next time a Nazi flag or a Swastika or what have you appears ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, right. The next time. So you knew about the situation where Conservative Party Member of Parliament Mr. Cooper, he was giving an interview and this upside down Canada flag with the Swastika appeared. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can I now bring up POE.HRF.000000026. Okay. So this is the post from a fella by the name of Uskippop (ph) unidentified on Reddit. He posted at 3:12 p.m. And it's, from my understanding, the first time that the Nazi flag photo appears. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, it's just the ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm just trying to get through it. And then there is the issue with respect to that that no one was able to identify this gentleman. And I believe there's a close-up photo of my friend. Ms. Van Den Berg?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Well, I'm just going to, if we are going to run out of time, is this: We're you aware that the first time that the picture of the gentleman all covered in Army fatigues, with a mask over his face, walking with a Confederate flag through a crowd, it first appeared in an opinion piece in the Toronto Star from someone who actually works for the Liberal Party of Canada? Were you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm asking if he's aware of it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, because you keep interrupting me while I'm trying to ask questions and I'm running out of time.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Are you aware of a company called Enterprise Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And have you identified the individual, the one that is -- there was -- he was all over the news, the gentleman that was carrying the Nazi flag? Have you identified him yet?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it, and I take it then, sir, that you know that that individual was Brian Fox from Enterprise Canada.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, you haven't testified to it, but you know that to be true don't you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Minister, good morning -- or good afternoon. Mr. name’s Brendan Miller and I’m counsel to Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa January and February of 2022. If we could please bring up document SSM.CAN.00006358_REL.0001. So if we can scroll to the last page, please. Have you seen this email before, sir -- the last page, please.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So this email is from January 27th, 2022 at 4:21 p.m. You can agree with me that the protesters in Ottawa didn’t arrive here until the 28th; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So they’re already preparing the narrative that they’re going to label the protesters with. Can we scroll down, please. And there -- I put this to the last witness as well: "Our government recognizes and respects that everyone in Canada has the right to safe and peaceful protest. Threatening acts of violence and inciting hatred, as we have seen from a select few in recent days, is unacceptable and does not reflect the views of the majority of Canadians. We condemn all such hateful and violent rhetoric in the strongest terms." So can you agree with me that that labelling of the protesters had already been set out on January 27th?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, if we can scroll up, and scroll up to the top, please. So this is with your chief of staff and they’re agreeing about how they’re going to set the narrative for the protest. And if you scroll down again, they confirm with one another that this is what they’re going to do. So can you agree with me, again, that by January 27th, 2022, your -- essentially, all your colleagues and yourselves had agreed that there’d be a joint government response and this was how you were going to deal with it, you were going to label the protesters violent, to incite hate, hateful violent rhetoric; that was the intention on January 27th, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. If we could bring up document SSM.CAN.00007719_REL.0001. So, sir, I can tell you these are the notes of Ms. Sarah Jackson. I take it you know Sarah Jackson is the Officer Manager to the Chief of Staff of the Prime Minister; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you know who Katie Telford is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And she’s the Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Can we scroll down to page 3, please? All right, so you’ll see that this note, it’s -- the note’s from Jackson and it says: "February 4th, KT call." So I’m sure you can agree with me that “KT”, that’s Katie Telford; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So let’s scroll down to page 4, please. And there, at the note on February 4th, 2022, it says: "Blair’s strategy, Emergency Act." Do you see that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, because it was your strategy om February 4th, 2022, to get the Emergencies Act invoked, was it not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So why would, in a conversation, to your knowledge -- why would Ms. Jackson record that in a meeting with Ms. Telford? Why would she do that, to your knowledge?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you agree with me, though, that if there was a strategy to invoke the Emergencies Act that if the purported emergency resolves itself on its own, of course there’s no reason to invoke it; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but you ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- you had said on Global News on the 13th -- at eight o’clock on the 13th ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- you had told them -- and I can -- I have the transcript if you’d like me to repeat it. You said that the Emergencies Act was under consideration from the outset. Do you want me to read the transcript to you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, what you actually said was is that it was under consideration from the first day. That’s what you said. Would you like me to show you the transcript?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. If we could bring up the support documents, it, I believe, is in there.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I don’t want to slow this down so I’ll move on and come back to that. So, sir, we’ll come back to what you said, but by February 4th of 2022, you agree that the prime minister and Minister Mendicino had already labelled the protesters in Ottawa as extremists; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you can agree that on January 31st, 2022, the prime minister addressed the nation on TV and on the internet by video; do you remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When the prime minister went on television to the whole nation and talked about the Ottawa protest on the following Monday, you don’t remember that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, I’m going to read you what he said and you can tell me if you remember. And he stated: "I know you are wondering about what you saw in our Capital City this weekend. As my friend, Irwin Cotler said on Saturday, ‘Freedom of expression, assembly, and association are the cornerstones of democracy, but Nazi symbolism, racist imagery, and desecration of War Memorials are not. It is an insult to memory and truth. Hate can never be the answer.’ Over the past few days, Canadians were shocked and frankly disgusted by the behaviour displayed by some people protesting in the Nation’s Capital. I want to be very clear; we are not intimidated by those who hurl insults and abuse at small business workers and steal food from the homeless. We won’t give in to those who fly racist flags. We won’t cave to those who engage in vandalism and dishonour the memory of our veterans. There is no place in our country for threats, violence, or hatred. So to those responsible for this behaviour, it needs to stop. To anyone who joined the convoy but is rightly uncomfortable with the symbols of hatred and division on display, join with your fellow Canadians. Be courageous and speak out. Do not stand for or with intolerance or hate." Do you remember hearing that now?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so you can agree there that the prime minister has stated that being part of the protest is essentially standing with intolerance and hate; can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it you know that when the protesters arrived on January 28th, up to February 1st, that the evidence to date is that they were largely and completely peaceful and that there was little to no violence; do you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so the bearer of the Nazi flag, that is a person who is hateful and it is someone that the Government of Canada is concerned about? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I understand you’re also, though, you’re familiar with the company Enterprise Canada that does work for the Liberal Party of Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you familiar with Supriya Dwivedi? Does that sound familiar?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you familiar with a Mr. Brian Fox?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Have you heard anything about the individual carrying the Nazi flag actually not being a protestor, but somebody sent there so that photos were taken? Have you heard anything about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And we’ll just come back to the issue with the labeling then. I take it though that you consulted your comms people on the narrative that you wanted the media to accept before the protestors even got here, according to that email?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That email states that they were buying the narrative. That’s what it states.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you agree that from the protestors’ arrival, at least after February 4th, you intended and wanted the protestors removed by force? Didn’t you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you couldn’t talk to them after they had been labeled these extremists because your colleagues and yourself, of course, you know, extremism, Nazis, terrorists, you can’t talk to that sort of group; can you? It would look bad; wouldn’t it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So on February 7th, 2022, when the Mayor of Ottawa asked the Federal Government and yourself to bring in a mediator to meet with the protestors, do you remember what you said to your chief of Staff in response to that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we can bring up document SSM.NSC.CAN.00003070_Rel.0001? So this is your response to finding out about the request for mediator, and you respond as follows: “I don’t know who is advising Mayor Watson but this is a bad mistake. He has conceded without ever using the many tools available to the city. His language is also problematic. This is not a labour dispute between interests. It’s an unlawful occupation As long as the city and its police […] refuse to do anything, no progress will be possible.” So I take it at the time when you wrote that to your Chief of Staff, that was how you felt; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. And so it’s fair to say that you did not want to bring in a mediator?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, but also then on February 11th of 2022, you were given a copy of the engagement proposal that Insp. Beaudin of the OPP and Deputy Minister Stewart had drafted; right? You were emailed a copy?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we can bring up Document SSM.CAN.0006131_Rel.0001? And if we can scroll down to the bottom? So this is: “Attached is a draft for your review and comments. I have validated the proposed approach with the OPP expert and since shared the draft, but no word back yet.” And that is from Deputy Minister Rob Stewart, and it is on February 11th, 2022 at 12:00 p.m. And if we can go up? We can keep going. It is then forwarded to you by your Chief of Staff, Astravas, Zita, and then it appears -- if we can scroll up -- you have a response, but it’s redacted under section 39 of the Canada Evidence Act. Now, can you agree with me that your Chief of Staff is not a Member of Cabinet?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So what was your response here?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t recall. Would it be helpful to the Commission if we had your response?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t recall the response. But given that it’s an engagement proposal, and in the meeting when you actually had it before you, there’s notes to the effect that “This isn’t action. We want action.” Is it fair to say that both yourselves, including the Prime Minister and Minister Mendicino, you were never, on any terms, going to carry out any such proposal that would essentially require you to go and talk to the protestors; were you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you had always been open to meeting with the protestors?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But right now, as I understand it, and there has been testimony, that it’s not uncommon for law enforcement to request of the political branch to assist a negotiation like that, It’s actually relatively common. They testified to that. So what was the problem? Was it because you couldn’t be seen to meet with Nazis and extremists? Is that what was the issue?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can we please bring up one last document? SSM.CAN.00008763_Rel.0001?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thanks. This is a copy of the proposal with respect to engaging the protestors; okay? Minister, what’s the problem with it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, this proposal was before you int eh IRG ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- on the 13th.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s not ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. I understand that. But that’s not really the evidence that’s come out. There’s been evidence, and we’ll leave it at that. But at the end of the day, when you saw this, you agree that it was recommended by the OPP, it’d been brought to you and drafted by the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, and they were on board? In fact, I found an email, can you agree that the Privy Councillor, the Privy Councillor Clerk, she gave it the green light?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was Cabinet, was it not? There was no recommendation ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So just ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just one ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have one last question and I’m done. So you agree with me that after the invocation, on numerous occasions, your government told the public that law enforcement had told you that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met? Do you remember all those statements that your colleagues and maybe even yourself made? Do you remember those?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you don't agree that those statements were made?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you don't agree that ministers in your Government have said that law enforcement advised Cabinet that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But then you do agree, of course, is that law enforcement never advised you that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met, did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Commissioner?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before he begins, my colleagues at the Government of Canada have moments ago provided some unredacted records finally based on our motions. One of those records is relevant and material to this witness extraordinarily. And if my friend -- I'd be asking to deviate on that basis because they were just provided moments ago, to be able to ask this witness for five more minutes, so I may question him about this new document. I can advise it's February 12th minutes read out from a Ministerial meeting about this very issue, and it's very enlightening.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It does.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I advised my friend it wasn’t. I would like to ask five minutes worth of questions. That’s it, sir. That’s all I would ask.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So hopefully this is already in Relativity. It is Document SSM.CAN.NSC.0000287220, I think. Is that -- do you have it? Great. Thank you. So, Minister, this is the 1:00 p.m. Ministerial Update read out. And you can scroll up and see it’s a read out of what happened at your Ministerial Meeting on February 12th, 2022. All right? And if we can scroll down to the second page, please? Where it says “Ottawa”? Thank you. So I just didn’t know if you were made aware of this. Essentially, right there, it says “Plan” -- this is the third from the bottom. “Plan presented yesterday to Sloly for approval. OPP, RCMP have approved. Will further present to Minister. Meeting with Sloly at 2:00.” (As read) You’re aware of that? You’re aware that was what was advised on February 12th?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you can agree with me that the plan presented was the one from the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Minister Stewart?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And are you aware, and it’s already in evidence, that on February 12th at 5:00 p.m., Deputy Di Tommaso, Deputy Minister Di Tommaso, texted with Chief Sloly, and he too approved the plan?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, if that’s the case, and all of the police in the jurisdiction of Ottawa approved the plan, why did you invoke the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But isn't the RCMP, the OPP, and the OPS approving a plan that isn't the Emergencies Act, isn't that what law enforcement advised you to do?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Last question. The plan, all right, the engagement plan or proposal, in all of the Cabinet minute meetings where it was discussed -- it's attached to the minutes as a document that was discussed, so I take it, can you agree that the engagement proposal, you had that document, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, before we take the break, I just have a quick application. I apologize, sir. I think it’s important. I’ve just met Mr. Alexander Cohen. He’s present in this room. And sir, Mr. Cohen, as we have heard throughout this proceeding, has relevant and material evidence to this proceeding’s mandate. He has very relevant evidence with respect to the Inquiry, as to the circumstances, as to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. He also has relevant and material information with respect to misinformation, of which this Commission has been asked with exploring, beginning with the text messages between himself and Mary-Liz Power that are already in evidence, in building the narrative with respect to the protestors in Ottawa being extremists and thereafter essentially setting out that they are in fact proprietors of Nazi symbolism. Sir, this Commission is, in hearing from various ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d like to call him as a witness, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t expect that we would have the opportunity.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, this is my application, sir. I’m making it orally. And I am asking for the Commission to have him testify after the Minister. He has relevant material and information.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re given 15 minutes to cross-examine, elicit relevant material evidence, and we have relevant and material witnesses here. The Government of Canada has redacted without lawful authority all of these statements from these staffers and have suppressed records.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, the schedule ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- is not as important as getting to the truth.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. I think ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- it’s what Canadians are entitled to.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I understand, but I just ask for a ruling after the morning break. Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, but sir, I mean, your counsel has advised you that ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know you’ve directed ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- you wanted the application ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, we’ve filed ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- two motions in writing at your direction that you’ve refused to rule on with respect to the redaction ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- of documents from the Government of Canada ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- that has not ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- been ruled on. Has been filed for days.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir. And just before I start, I apologize for talking over you earlier today.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hello.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name's Brendan Miller and I'm Counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the entity of -- that represents the protesters that were here in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. So, sir, you're a lawyer; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And before you were a politician, you were a Crown prosecutor; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you worked for Public Prosecution Services Canada; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you worked for Public Prosecution Services Canada for a period of 10 years; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you've prosecuted terrorism cases; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you agree that in prosecuting terrorism cases you had to become intimately familiar with national security law; fair to say?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so included in your knowledge would be the CSIS Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right? And that would also include in your knowledge would be the Canada Evidence Act provisions protecting national security as well as criminal investigation information; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Your intimate knowledge in - - knowledge as prosecutor in what you were doing, it would also include the provisions and the case law with respect to the Canada Evidence Act provisions protecting national security as well as criminal investigation information?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And as a lawyer, of course, before you testified here today in these proceedings, I take it that you knew you needed to be prepared to testify?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in preparing to testify here today, I assume you reviewed many records and as many as possible?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I'm sure you reviewed the numerous statements that you made in public and to Canadians with respect to the protests in Ottawa as well as the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And with respect to preparing for this hearing, and again as a lawyer, I take it you probably watched all of the evidence given yesterday by the Director of CSIS and Minister Blair; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So yesterday, we had a discussion, I had questioned the Director of CSIS and I asked him the following questions. This is just from the transcript. And I asked him, "Are you aware of a company called Enterprise Canada?" And his answer was, "Not specifically, no." And then I asked him, "And have you identified the individual, the one that is -- there was -- he was all over the news, the gentleman that was carrying the Nazi flag, have you identified him?" (As read) And Mr. Vigneault responded, said, "Mr. Commissioner, as I said before, we -- the specific details of our investigation have been shared, you know, with the Commission earlier. I would not be able to go into more specific detail." (As read) Were you aware that he said that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, now I take it that you know as a former prosecutor with Public Prosecution Services Canada in the realm of national security law that the identity of a man carrying a flag in public, who's photographed in public is not protected by any form of national security law or other evidentiary protection; can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I take it that you know, as a former prosecutor with Public Prosecution Services Canada, in the realm of national security law, that the identity of a man carrying a flag in public, who has been photographed in public is not protected by any form of national security law or other evidentiary protection, we know that.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m saying that the identity of an individual whose picture has been taken carrying the Nazi flag, in public, by someone in the public and posted on line, the identity of that person, who he is, is not protected by National Security law; is it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Clerk, if you could bring up the one document, please?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think so, yeah. Okay. So this is the individual I’m talking about; it was all over the news and we’ve been trying to figure out who he is and we think we have. Now, again, in looking at this picture, it was posted on line, it was in the news, everywhere. And when I asked the Director of CSIS about his identity, he didn’t say he didn’t know; he invoked the National Security law. But I take it you know, as a former prosecutor, with Public Prosecution Services Canada, in the realm of National Security law, that the identity of this man carrying the Nazi flag in public, who’s photographed in public, is not protected by any form of National Security law or other evidentiary protection; you know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But, sir, of course we filed an Affidavit ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, as you know, we filed an Affidavit from an individual who identified this man and the man is Mr. Brian Fox, according to that Affidavit. He met him when he was doing -- that photo was taken around the same time; he talked to him; he’s been identified; there’s an application before this Commission to call Mr. Fox as well as to allow our witness, Mr. Sean Folks to testify and it is clear, frankly, from the lack of answer and from the objection, that the witness here needs to answer this question. And subject to any questions, sir, those are my submissions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, sir, now again, I take it you know as a former prosecutor with Public Prosecution Services Canada in the realm of National Security law, that the identity of that man ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Question, right. “Are you aware of a company called Enterprise Canada? MR. VIGNEAULT: Not specifically, no. Q. And have you identified the individual, the one that is there; he was all over the news, the gentleman that was carrying the Nazi flag; have you identified him yet? Mr. Commissioner, as I said before, we –- the specific details of our investigation have been shared you know with the Commissioner earlier. I would not be able to go into more specific details.” And then I tried to get him to identify that it was the individual and I was cut off.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so if I may ask my question. Now, I take it that you know as a former prosecutor with Public Prosecutions Services Canada and the realm of National Security law, that the identity of the man that was in the photo carrying a flag in public, is a photograph in public and is not protected by any form of National Security law or other evidentiary protection. You’re aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’re aware and you know that Mr. Brian Fox was the individual who was walking around in downtown Ottawa carrying a Nazi flag on January 29th, 2022, don’t you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, are you aware that Freedom Corp, and you’ve already heard, has applied to have Mr. Fox testify?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you’re aware of the company Enterprise Group; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Enterprise Canada?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And they do work for the Liberal Party of Canada; is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Weren’t they working for the Liberal Party of Canada and political staffers and staff in January and February of 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you know who local Ottawa freelance photographer David Chan is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t know that David Chan was the official photographer for Prime Minister Paul Martin; you didn’t know that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you didn’t know that Paul Chan still does freelance work for the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you’re not aware that Mr. Chan was the individual who took the photos of the person carrying the confederate flag.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I will just ask. So are you aware that Katie Telford, the Chief of Staff for the Prime Minister, has a relationship with Enterprise Group and their staff?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I just want to talk to you then about your statements. You had said after and during the invocation: “We are listening to law enforcement. According to law enforcement we need the Emergencies Act.” You said that, correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but law enforcement didn’t advise you they needed the Emergencies Act; did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you agree that you stated that the Emergencies Act was instrumental in addressing the blockades of ports of entry? Do you remember seeing that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But the Emergencies Act wasn’t used to remove any of the protestors at any blocks of entry -- or ports of entry; you’re aware?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you also said that: “We got advice from our law enforcement that we met the threshold. That advice and the decision to invoke it, informed by non-partisan professionals.” (As read) Can you agree that no law enforcement ever advised you that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met? That never happened; did it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And just two last questions arising from that. Commissioner Lucki, in an email, and it’s already in evidence, told you, and told your Deputy Minister -- or your Chief of Staff actually, that she believed that the Emergencies Act wasn’t necessary because they could use the normal laws of Canada to deal with the matter?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can you agree that Commissioner Lucki, and no law enforcement official, a police officer, a police officer, advised you that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met? Meaning that there was reasonable and probable grounds or reasonable grounds of a threat to the security of Canada? No one from law enforcement specifically said that to you; did they?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It says it's before the speech Monday morning which is the date that they announced the invocation. That might assist.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, my name is Brendan Miller; I’m counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the entity representing the protesters that were in Ottawa in January and February ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- 2022. First, Professor Lametti, it’s actually an honour to meet you. I’ve used some of your articles in my litigation practice, so I’m a fan.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In any event, sir, we’ll just get right into this. As the Attorney General and the Minister of Justice, your powers and duties come from the Department of Justice Act; that’s correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And under section 4 of that Act, your powers and duties include that you shall: “...see that the administration of public affairs is in accordance with law;” Is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And under (b) it also has you as: “...the superintendence of all matters [coming within] the administration of justice...[federally]...” Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then under section 5(d), you: “...shall have the regulation and conduct of all litigation for or against the Crown or any department,...” Is that right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that, of course, includes the Department of Justice, including the legal team here today?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And you might have -- I’m sure you’ve got it that in a ruling yesterday, Commissioner Rouleau ruled that the Department of Justice and all the parties were able to produce any legal authorities for the DOJ to redact records on the basis of Parliamentary privilege. Are you aware of that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what Justice Rouleau ruled was that there’s just no authority for redacting documents on the basis of a Parliamentary privilege. So I’m wondering if under your powers under section 5(d) of the Department of Justice Act if you can direct that the Department of Justice release all the records that they’ve provided in this proceeding, with the redactions for Parliamentary privilege unredacted.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very well. And from being a lawyer and a law professor and Attorney General, I take it you have an intimate understanding of solicitor/client privilege; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And of course you also have an understanding of section 39 of the Canada Evidence Act and Cabinet confidence; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, one of the documents produced by DOJ in the record -- and I’m assuming it was just produced to prove it was done -- is the redacted legal opinion. It’s just the document itself that was given to Cabinet; it’s fully redacted. But, of course, you agree that Cabinet received a legal opinion about the Emergencies Act; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, we have evidence in this proceeding from the Privy Council Office and Ms. Jody Thomas that the Government of Canada’s position is that -- of course, as you’ve said, that section 2 of the CSIS Act has a different meaning and that is has a different scope based in its reference in the Emergencies Act, that’s right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’ve testified to the same thing; that you’re going to leave it to counsel. And I take it that as a lawyer, in preparing your testimony here today, you reviewed all the relevant records and documents that you had access to and in your possession and power to obtain; fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. In the record in the proceedings and in the documents that you reviewed, and the ones that we have available unredacted, can you point to me of a document, of a record in this proceeding that existed prior to he invocation of the Emergencies Act where there's any recording whatsoever or discussion that there is a broader scope of section 2 of the CSIS Act when it is applied to the Emergencies Act? Can you point me to a document that says that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll, then, narrow it down. Was there any such document, that you reviewed in preparing for your testimony here today, that existed prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, that it was discussed -- that isn’t subject to solicitor-client privilege -- that it was discussed that there was a broader scope of Section 2 as it applied in the Evidence Act.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I understand, sir. And so, again, I just -- I would like the question answered. Did you see any documents that talked about this interpretation that you’re discussing that existed prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And, sir, as the Attorney General of the country, of course, you have ultimate authority both to and to advise on when to waive solicitor-client privilege; do you not?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but you advise on that?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I’m not going to ask you that question again, but I take it, you know, as an eminent law professor, an academic, with the many publications you have, that between February 13th and 14th, when you were considering this decision, you didn’t personally -- personally -- believe that Section 2 of the CSIS Act was any different in the Emergencies Act, did you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I’m asking ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I understand, but I’m -- no, I’m asking you what you personally believe as a member of cabinet.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. But, sir, we all know, as lawyers, that sometimes we give advice and it’s not followed. And I’m not asking you to tell me what you advised. I’m asking you, as a member of cabinet, was it your personal belief that -- on February 13th or 14th, did you personally believe that Section 2 of the CSIS Act had a different scope in the Emergencies Act, as you -- is now being argued? Was that your personal belief?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m asking his personal belief as he’s also a member of cabinet.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But again, you understand, under Section 4 of the Department of Justice Act, it’s your duty to see that the administration of public affairs is carried out in accordance with the law?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I don’t want to know about what you would give as an attorney but -- with respect to what you actually gave -- but when you’re advising on whether to waive solicitor-client privilege, what factors do you consider?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you can agree that it’s been waived in the past by the government?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, just one last -- -
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I am. And just, dealing with Section 39 of the Evidence Act -- we just had that. I had mentioned that -- you understand that, of course, Section 39 of the Evidence Act applies to cabinet confidences?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. No, it’s ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t have the ability to show it to you but Section 39, it speaks to confidence of the Queen’s Privy Council; can we agree about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you agree with me that it’s your understanding that a cabinet confidence is something - - or a record that’s a cabinet confidence or has a cabinet confidence in it is something that cabinet would have knowledge of, that someone within cabinet would have knowledge of the contents of the document?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so with the Section 39 redactions that are in all the correspondence between staffers, everything the staffers say, cabinet would have knowledge of that, then?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, sir. It’s been a pleasure.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hello. My name’s Brendan Miller, and I’m counsel to Freedom Corp., which is the representative of the protesters that were in your city, at Ottawa, in January and February 2022. So ma’am, I understand the mandate regarding truckers that led to the protest that came into effect in January 15th, 2022; is that correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And during the pandemic, from March 20 through January 15th, 2022, there was no such regulation, right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And just so the folks at home understand, a regulation is a different type of law; it’s passed by the Executive Branch alone, not by all Parliament, right, like the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so would you be -- would you agree with me that, given that the -- during the throes of the pandemic from March 2020 through to January 15th, 2022, and we had no regulation, you didn’t need one.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I understand that, but I’m just going to ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I only have so much time, so I’m going to cut you off there. And you’d agree with me that, given that there was no regulation in place from March 2020 through January 15th, 2022, during the throes of the pandemic, there was no reason to pass one in January 15th, 2022, was there; there was no health risk?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But -- so -- or the purpose was to encourage Canadians to get vaccinated, to compel them to get vaccinated; is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So that was the purpose of the regulation; that was the true purpose: It wasn’t to keep people safe; it was to get them vaccinated.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So from March 2020 to January 15th, 2022, did you fail to protect Canadians by not having that regulation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So -- and of course the government -- you ended up creating a vaccine compensation fund in December of 2020; do you remember that?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’re aware that Quebec had a vaccine compensation fund, and is the only province that actually had one, prior to that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you agree with me that the United States has a federal vaccine compensation fund, ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- a long time.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So from 1867, when Canada was founded, up until December of 2020, Canada had no federal vaccine compensation fund; can you agree with that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But the first -- and you can agree the first compensation fund in Canada for vaccines came about only because of the COVID vaccines; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I agree.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand. Ma’am, I don’t need to know that, but ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand, I don’t ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ma’am
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Please stop talking out the clock and let me ask my questions, okay? So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So, ma’am, if that’s the case, then, did Health Canada advise you to enact this regulation?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so that mandate was only in place until June of 2022; right?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- we're going to move on into just another area. I take it you know who Tamara Lich is; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you knew -- you know who Chris Barber is?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you know who Tom Marazzo is; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Tom Marazzo, the gentleman over there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what about Danny Bulford? You know who he is; correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Danny Bulford. He used to be with the security team for the RCMP with the Prime Minister.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And when you were making your decision with respect to invoking the Emergencies Act you'd already heard about Tamara Barber, or sorry, Tamara Lich and Chris Barber?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you -- there was some discussions about them in some of the records. You -- there was issues, you knew who they were?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you knew about that before you invoked the Emergencies Act?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And of course, you know with Tamara Lich, she's a Canadian?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And she's ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She's from Alberta? Do you know that? Where you're from?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Is Tamara Lich a terrorist?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And -- so it's not your authority to designate Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, Tom Marazzo, or Danny Bulford terrorists, that's somebody else has to do that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I bring up ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, just a second. If I can bring up document SSM.CAN.00008764_REL.001, Please. And you can -- while he's pulling that up if you want add to your answer. Okay, if we can scroll down to page -- I believe this is a note with Dave. What page? Twelve. Page 12, please. And this is a note that I understand you wrote with Dave from CSIS that's -- 11, and this is a meeting with Dave from CSIS. And if you scroll down. Keep going. Okay. And there, you say that "you need to designate the group as terrorists." So -- but it's not your job, but you wanted to designate them as terrorists; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It says -- okay. It's with David Vigneault from CSIS.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which Dave?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which Dave?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which Dave are you ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which Dave is in these notes?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which Dave is in those notes? What's Dave's last name?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It only said Dave.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- I'm just going to -- this isn't a document, I don't need to bring it up, but you state in the House: "Mr. Speaker, the members opposite has just used the bad apple excuse. She has excused the desecration of a national..." (As read)
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is a Parliamentary Commission. There is no Parliamentary privilege.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, absolutely it exists.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It does exist, but because this a report to Parliament, pursuant to the case I gave you earlier in McIver, it doesn't apply. You can actually ask all of it because we're carrying out a Parliamentary function. And there's no liability here, it's just a report to Parliament, and the Federal Court of Appeal has agreed.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I gave you the McIver case quite a while ago when we talked about the objections, and I think I -- yeah, it's there.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is just a statement from the Deputy Prime Minister in the House. And, "Mr. Speaker, the members opposite" ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is what it says: "...used just the bad apples excuse. She has excused the desecration..."
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, I'll come back to it.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And -- but you do recall, ma'am, that you had expressed concerns publicly with respect to desecration to national monuments. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So here I'll just ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll move on. It's okay. So one of the things that happened during the protest in Ottawa dealt with the National Monument and the Terry Fox statute. Do you remember reading about that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and there was -- and that Terry Fox statue, they put a hat on Terry Fox's head and then put a flag in his arm, and then there was a "Mandate Freedom" sign on it.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I went online and I just looked at how many times someone's done that to that statute, and there seems to be hundreds, so I'm just going to put this one to you. If someone puts an LGBTQ flag on the Terry Fox statute and flowers on the statute is that a desecration?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you said it was a desecration -- when you call it a desecration in public that was what you were referring to, based on what was put on the statue. So is it fair to say that it's only a desecration to you if you don't agree with the message?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You -- that's okay, it's public record. With respect to -- you had said you had concerns for violent actions and interactions with respect to protesters, and I take it that was nationally, you had concerns nationally, or was it just Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So -- but with respect to the interaction with protesters, I don't know if you heard the testimony of the Mayor there, but he said that 75 percent of his small town supported the blockades and that many of the properties have “F Trudeau” flags all over them. So did -- you wouldn’t have concern with that specific protest; would you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you can agree that police investigate weapons offences all over the country every day?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So simply because the police know a weapon is somewhere, you can agree with me it’s not a national emergency?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you testified earlier about what you viewed as, you know, ensuring that we, as Canadians have a good international reputation so that people come to our country and want to do business with us. Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it when you consider those sort of things, you look at various reports, and I’m sure you look at various indexes, I’m sure you look at the Transparency International Index? Is that fair?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well since 2019, we’ve began to fall. All right? And we have now come down out of the top 10. And it continues to decline. So can you agree with me that Canada not being transparent hurts our relationship internationally?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And on that point, if I told you that there is a whole bunch of unlawfully redacted documents that we’ve been fighting over and waiting for an order just to get them today, and we haven’t had them for whole proceeding, do you think that’s transparent?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And one of your concerns, of course, with transparency and our reputation was that you would want your government to be as transparent as possible; right?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can you agree with me if, you know, any time it comes out that the Canadian Government has misled Canadians on something, it really hurts our international reputation; doesn’t it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And in the many statements that have been said by all the politicians in this matter, one of the main things they talked about, and Justin Trudeau did particularly, on the -- following the first weekend of the invocation of the Emergencies Act was these horrible, horrible, the Nazi flag and all those things that people saw in Ottawa? You heard him say that?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’d agree if it turned out those flags were linked to your government, that would look really bad for our international reputation; wouldn’t it?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, before I begin, I have an issue that I need to address. As you know, and I've made application several times, the disclosure in the record is entirely deficient. We've been trying to deal with these redactions. There is still redactions for parliamentary privilege with the Government has not removed. There's no legal basis for, as you've already ruled, to redact any document on the basis of parliamentary privilege. There is also the issue, as I've re-raised by email as well, the issue with the notes of this witness, the process that was used in dealing with that needs to be reassessed. These are important witnesses. I need rulings, and so does everyone here. The rulings on the redactions are so important. And for example, Ms. Jody Thomas testified and said that she supported the invocation of the Emergencies Act, but there is a note that we got after we fought for the one redaction we got that said Jody Thomas did not. And it was put up on the screen. There was notes taken. It had one section 39 redaction on it, so if that's a Cabinet document we can assume Cabinet knew about it, and it states that section 2, no violence, and they were trying to come up with a way how to make this work anyway. That would have been very helpful to have when she was on the stand under oath. This is happening constantly. There is thousands of documents ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir -- sir ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So sir, I can make it very easy. We've written your counsel for a set of them. So the law is such that where a redaction is sought on the basis of irrelevance it is not the onus of the person seeking to have it redacted on the basis for the relevance, it's the onus on the person who's seeking for it to be redacted. And the purpose for that is that all of the documents given to us are subject to the implied undertaking. So there -- they don't become public until a ruling on their relevance is made.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, but ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But I just want to put on the record that throughout this entire proceeding all counsel here, and we're on national television, this is supposed to be completely transparent. This is the purpose of this.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's not your fault.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's just the fault that nobody's order DOJ to actually produce what they're obliged to do.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But could you just not order that the redactions for parliamentary privilege? Because I can -- sir, I can tell you, I've studied that area in and out, and the reason no one could provide you an authority for the purpose of a redaction on the basis of parliamentary privilege is it doesn't exist. And parliamentary privilege is, of course, an ancient doctrine. And if you would just order the production of the records without those redactions it would remove a whole bunch. Then if you would order the production of all relevant records with respect to where irrelevant is claimed, those records are then subject to the implied undertaking. And there's no national security issue with those. If they were, section 38 would be claimed. There is no Cabinet confidence because section 39 is not claimed. And that's -- that has been the law since time immemorial. How can you contest if something's relevant if you don't know what it says? And my problem is is that this witness is now on the stand. One of the documents is key, in my submission, it is the notes of Ms. Jackson, which is the office assistant to this witness. There are redactions therein on the basis of irrelevance, and there are redactions therein also I believe on one of the other grounds. And I've sent a written motion, if you will, email to your counsel. We've been asking for these things, and asking for proper production throughout this proceeding. All counsel are in agreement that we don't have proper production, sir.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So sir ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So if I could bring up the notes of Ms. Jackson, which are at -- oh, just a second. SSM.CAN.7719. Okay. So Ms. Telford, Sarah Jackson, she is your office manager; is this correct?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And so obviously she's a scribe and does scribing for you when you're in meetings?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So the notes that she takes she has... If we can scroll down, and down. Right. So that says "KT Call", and I take it that's you?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So she's taking notes in a phone call she has with you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don't know. So that's on February 4th. Do you remember February 4th?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So what happened on February 4th?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I'm trying to find out, because I have to build a record for this, do you have any idea why anything in your conversation on February 4th in that note would be irrelevant?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it when you spoke to Ms. Telford, or sorry, to this individual at the time there was no lawyer present, was there?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So can we scroll down then. So you see there, the Government has claimed solicitor/client privilege, okay. And you don't remember speaking with a lawyer on February 4th, do you?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So how would the Government know, if you don't know, that this is solicitor/client privilege? They couldn't, could they? So it's redacted, and this is the problem, sir. You irrelevant ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And so if we can scroll down. Okay. And in that note, on February 4th, I know you don't have a good memory, but in your conversation ---
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I know, good memory on February 4th, I know she doesn't have a good memory of it, but - - it wasn't an insult. "Blair's current strategy - Emergencies Act." Right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I take it your understanding, she's writing down what you were saying, and you told her that "Blair's current strategy is the Emergencies Act." So it was Minister Blair's strategy to invoke the Emergencies Act on February 4th. That's your understanding; isn't it?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what was "Blair's current strategy - Emergencies Act" on February 4th, 2022?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t remember?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you have notes from February 4th?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’ve been provided? Okay. Have you provided all of them to the Department of Justice?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And would you say that you provided notes from each and every single day?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And with respect to this meeting, do you remember what you and Ms. Jackson were talking about?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But obviously you were discussing the Emergencies Act?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you think it would assist the Tribunal and this Inquiry if Ms. Jackson testifies?
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you can’t answer what that note says.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well on February 4th of 2022, Ms. Jackson, in a conversation with you, writes down “Blair’s current strategy - Emergencies Act”. Right? And you hadn’t even had an IRG at that point.
-
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and I put this to him and he said that it wasn’t true. So wouldn’t it be helpful, if you can’t remember ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He said that he never had -- I put the note to him, and he said that that’s not -- wasn’t his strategy, that that’s incorrect. That was his evidence.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On February 4th. When was the first time that the Government came out and spoke that they were considering invoking the Emergencies Act? Do you remember?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And Minister Blair, I discussed this with him, on February 13th, for the first time he went on a show and he talked about that it was under consideration from the outset. But then when he testified here, he said it wasn’t. So was the invocation of the Emergencies Act under consideration from the beginning of the protest in Ottawa?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we could put the document back up, please?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, no, I was just -- the document went down. I’m not done. I apologize. Thank you. So and I understand that there was a consideration of a public welfare emergency; right? That’s very different than a public order emergency. You know that. There doesn’t have to be a section 2 security threat; right?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re talking about from covid, because you said it was under consideration then.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So when that note is taken on February 4th, 2022, are you saying that you’re talking about it in relation to covid?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So if I can scroll up -- or down -- or up, please -- or down. We’ll go down. Down’s fine. Okay. So that says: “Flag to KT” “Feb[ruary] 10th”. And it’s written in there that this is irrelevant. What does that mean? Why is it irrelevant? Do you know?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t know either?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And could we scroll down again? And this one, where it says “Staff blockade”, and then it has section 39 invoked, do you know what that means?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I take it when you were having this phone call, there was no one else present on the phone other than you and Ms. Jackson; was there?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well if we scroll back up, this is the second page. The way it’s worded ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
“Flag to KT”. Okay. And so on February 10th, do you remember if Ms. Jackson was in a meeting with Cabinet?
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So how could -- section 39 is a Cabinet confidence. So how can -- so this is the problem. Those are my questions.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m going to object. He’s misrepresenting the document. That document is, in fact, prior to the invocation, though it doesn’t have a date on it. It talks about the announcement on the Monday, and it’s quite clear that that record is, in fact, from prior to invocation, and it actually says in it that there’s no violence under the CSIS Act.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. The DOJ never provided a date, unfortunately.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It does say that it’s before a Monday where there’s an announcement, and of course, the announcement of the Emergencies Act was on Monday the 14th, on Valentine’s Day.
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, sorry, can I ---
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Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I understand, but we don’t have a date for that document, and we need to clarify it.