Volume 3 (October 17, 2022)
Volume 3 has 329 pages of testimony. 21 people spoke before the Commission, including 2 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Sandrine Martineau-Lupien.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Steve Kanellakos, City Manager - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 722 times)
- Serge Arpin, Chief of Staff - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 492 times)
- Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 331 times)
- Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 256 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 166 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 130 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 115 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 97 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 66 times)
- Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 48 times)
- Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 42 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 34 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 19 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 17 times)
- Cara Zwibel, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 13 times)
- Colleen McKeown, Counsel - Criminal Lawyers’ Association / Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers (CLA/CCCDL) (spoke 10 times)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 5 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 3 times)
- Lauren Pearce, Counsel - National Police Federation (spoke 2 times)
- Stephen Armstrong, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 1 time)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Monday, October 17, 2022, at 9:29 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
À l’ordre. Order. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Day three. Looks like a very interesting week. On a des témoins intéressants cette semaine. Alors, je pense que c’est la Commission qui convoque un nouveau témoin. Est-ce que vous êtes prête? D’accord, Madame Rodriguez.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Bonjour, good morning. Natalia Rodriguez, senior Commission Counsel. And Commission would like to call Steve Kanellakos.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Good morning, Mr. Commissioner.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Kanellakos, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Religious document.
The Registrar (POEC)
We have the Bible, the Quran, the Tora available.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The Bible.
The Registrar (POEC)
Please take the Bible in your right hand. For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Steve Kanellakos, K-A-N-E- L-L-A-K-O-S.
MR. STEVE KANELLAKOS, Sworn
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Good morning.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Nice to see you again. Can you confirm your position with the City of Ottawa?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I'm the City Manager for the City of Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And as City Manager, I understand you're the most senior public servant in the administration; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you've held this position since May of 2006?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, May of 2016.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
'16, sorry. My mistake. And you had an interview with Commission Counsel on August 17th of this year; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And have you had a chance to review the summary of that interview?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Do you have any corrections you would like to make to that summary?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do not.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I would like to bring it up, so that we can have it entered into evidence. It's WTS1, ending in 1. Okay. So this is your witness summary?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Great. So we will have that entered into evidence. Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you've also sworn an affidavit attaching the institutional reports for the City of Ottawa for this Commission; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the affidavit is AFF3, if we can pull that up? Okay. And if we can just zoom in a little bit? Okay. So that is your affidavit; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the institution reports that it attaches are OTT.IR.00000001. And if we can zoom in? You recognize that as the City of Ottawa's institution report?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we can go to OTT.IR00000002. And this is the second institution report, which is a timeline of events submitted by the City of Ottawa; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And are you aware of any changes that should be made to either one of these documents?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I am not.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we'll have those entered into evidence along with your affidavit.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So just by way of background, according to your witness summary and the institution report, there are 10 departments within the City. Each department has a general manager, and each general manager then reports directly to you; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And one of those departments is the Emergency and Protective Services?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Kim Ayotte is the General Manager for that department?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that By- law and Regulatory Services falls within Emergency and Protective Services, and then that then subsequently reports to Mr. Kim Ayotte, and then up to you as City Manager; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you're also the Chair of the EOCCG when that group is activated; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, it's the EOCG.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The EOC ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, Emergency Operations Control Group.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what is the Emergency Operations Centre Control Group?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It's actually the same thing, but I think it's just wrong in the -- the acronym, it's two Cs, it's only one C.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It's only one C. Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you for that. The EOCG then. And my understanding is that the EOCG includes all 10 city departments, in addition to certain independent agencies such as Ottawa Public Health, Ottawa Police Services and others; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And as Chair, you have final decision-making authority for matters that are within the city's jurisdiction if there's a lack of consensus among the EOCG members; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do, but I don't have jurisdiction over the police chief, the medical officer of health, or the chief librarian, the CO of the libraries. Those officiants are under different legislation. I can't direct them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So if it's an agency that falls outside of 1 of the 10 departments, then you don't have authority over those; is that ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the lead agency for this particular emergency was which agency?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was Ottawa Police Service.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how was that decided?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, Ottawa Police is responsible for maintaining public order in the City of Ottawa, and under our incident management structure, police would be the lead agency when it comes to public order issues. That's been our practice for as long as I've been at the City for the last 22 years.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is it the case that every time there's a demonstration, that's considered a public order issue, and therefore, the police is the lead agency for that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Does it depend on the nature of the demonstration?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, if there's a demonstration, the police are the lead.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What about in the case of a parade, for example?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, even a parade, we have a group called SEAT. It’s an interdepartmental group including the police that plans for parades and other special events. And police have a role, but they may not necessarily be the lead if it’s -- depending on the nature of the event. Sometimes its just managed with Incident Command. But often police are still seen as a lead for any gathering of people.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And at the ELCG level, which I understand it is a City of Ottawa emergency group, what kinds of decisions are taken at that level?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They’re very strategic decisions. They’re really around policy. They’re looking ahead in terms of what resources we might need into the future, the sustainability of our staff, turnover of our staff, because people in emergencies normally work, you know, basically every waking hour on the emergency and we have to make sure we rotate them out. We make sure that services in the departments are sustained and they can continue. So this business continuity for city services. And so it’s very much a strategic direction. It’s not at the tactical and operational level at the OCG.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So as city manager, having all city departments reporting up to you, and as chair of the ELCG, it is fair to say that you would have been aware of any major considerations or any major decisions or actions that the City would have taken with respect to the convoy?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Generally, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I’m going to take you to OTT 101. And all of the OTT documents will end in .0001, but I’m not going to say that. So it’s just OTT 101. And this is an email that was sent to you. If we go down to the bottom? All right. So all the way to the bottom. Okay. So if we go up a little bit, just to see who this is from. Yeah, okay. So we have Steve Ball. And do you know who Steve Ball is?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who is he?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He’s the President of the Ottawa Hoteliers Association, I believe.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And this is dated January 25th, so this is before the arrival of the convoy in Ottawa. And he says: “See note below. I spoke to this guy and he gave me more info about the plan shut down access to the city.” (As read) And then he sends a message there, which says, in part: “The current count of transportation individuals are estimated at 10,000 to 15,000 members, who will be attending for a duration of 30 to 90 days from the day of January 29th, 2022 to February 27th, 2022, extending to February 1st, 2022.” (As read)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
April 1st.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, April 1st, 2022. And my understanding is that this message that was received by Steve Ball was somebody purporting to be on behalf of, it looks like, a Canada United Truckers Convoy, looking for hotels to stay in Ottawa? Is that your understanding as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, it is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And after that message, it looks like, if we go up, from Steve Ball, he sent it to Mathieu Gravel. And he’s at the Mayor’s office? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right. He’s a special advisor to the Mayor.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then he forwards that to you and to Steve Box, and to Kim Ayotte, and then he says: “After having raised three plus million through the crowd funding initiative, the truckers are starting to reach out to hotels to book stays of at least 30 days. Steve Ball spoke to this guy and he basically laid out the plan, which is basically that they will leave their trucks in place, chain them together, and attempt to block all accesses to the city. What is our level of preparedness to respond to this should it go on for many weeks or months? Who is our lead in responding and presumably liaising with the federal authorities? It would be helpful if we could have a quick call either today or tomorrow to share intel.” (As read) Okay. And then if we go up. So you received that on the 25th, and then it looks like you say that: “We are briefing the Mayor’s Office this week once we have the info we need.” (As read) And then Serge Arpin says: “Chief Peter Sloly has set up a briefing with the Mayor tomorrow after council.” (As read) And so it looks like then my understanding is that this information received from the Hotels Association was passed on to the Ottawa Police Service?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And it looks like a meeting was held then on January 26th, which was the day after this email, with Former Chief Sloly. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I believe so, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was the information in this email discussed?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t recall if it was discussed at that meeting. This information was shared with Ottawa Police. I know that for a fact because we have our email records that we sent it over. But I don’t remember if it was actually raised in that particular meeting.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if I could take you to OTT 259? This is the email from Intersec on January 26th. Go down. Yeah. Okay. There it is. And if we go up a little bit more just to show that it comes from Intersec? And it came, actually, on the 21st of January, but it was forwarded to the City on the 26th of January, if we go up a little bit more. Yeah. And it says: “The situation remains fluid.” (As read) And it says, if we go up a little bit more: “All open-source information and our interactions with organizers indicate that this will be a significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period.” (As read) And that is under “Current information”, the first bullet point there. And so if we go up, it looks like you received this email as well. Kim Ayotte forwards it to Steve Box and to Beth Gooding, and then Steve Box forwards that to you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall receiving this at the time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if I could take you to OTT 538? And this is dated January 26th. It’s from Riley Brockington. I understand he’s a councillor?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And he sent this to you and to some other people at the City, including Diane Deans, who was the Chair of the OPSB at the time? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in his email, he says, in part: “This isn’t just going to impact downtown, but the entire city region. Many are now saying shut down the city until the restrictions are lifted. This is going to last more than a weekend. The OPS today estimated 1,000 to 2,000 to protest. No way. Expect many more.” (As read) So when he says that “OPS today estimated one to 2,000 to protest”, given that this is on January 26th, is it fair to say that in the briefing that was given to council and to you and the Mayor on the 26th of January, this was the number that was provided to council and to you about what to expect in terms of numbers?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well the numbers -- this speaks to the information that we had heading into the end of the first weekend. And the information the City was receiving, even though we did receive information from other parties, just as the hoteliers, was pieces of information that was fed into police. Police were responsible, and are responsible, and have the access to the intelligence and the information across the country at the federal and provincial level to make the risk assessment that we all need to participate in to be able to respond appropriately. So all of this information, it was moving around. I think early emails had two to 300, or 50 trucks, and then it kind of escalated as the week went on, I think from about January 24th, on. And the numbers were growing and they were varying and there was different pieces of information coming in. We rely on the police to gather that information, collate that with all of the information they have, and make a risk assessment to provide to the City in terms of the strategies they’re going to take to mitigate that risk. And so from my point of view, and I’ve been doing this a long time, in terms of dealing with emergencies, it wasn’t unusual to have a variance in the views of people who thought it was going to be bigger, longer, you know, smaller. There were all kinds of opinions on what that would be. The only information we could rely on was the Ottawa Police in terms of reliable information at that time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in terms of the City’s planning for this event, what basis did it plan on? Was it on the basis of a prolonged stay that could last 30 to 90 days as the Hotel Association was suggesting? Or was it on a different basis?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The basis from Ottawa Police and our work, because we were an integrated team, was based on through the weekend, and maybe into the following week, Wednesday, was the initial assessment heading into that first weekend. There wasn’t an assessment that said it would have been longer than that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So then it would have been until maybe February 1st or so? Or 2nd?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know. I don’t have a calendar in front of me. But that first Wednesday was when they thought the last of them might leave.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the majority of them leaving after the weekend?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And this was information provided to the City on the 26th of January?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who provided that information?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Ottawa Police. Chief Sloly was providing that information. I think we also had emails and documentation in our EOC shared from the National Capital Regional Command Centre participants heading into that weekend.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in that weekend -- in that meeting, did anybody from the City say, "Well, you know, we have different information. What's the plan in case this goes on for longer, could potentially go on longer?"
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, because I think the one thing that, from my experience and I think from the people that worked with Ottawa Police for a long time, Ottawa Police has extensive experience dealing with demonstrations in national capital. They do that on a regular basis. Sometimes it's almost weekly. So there's a lot of confidence. And they've done it well over the years, over the last 20 years that I've been involved. They've handled those demonstrations very well. And people have confidence in their assessment of the situation to guide us in terms of what to expect and what posture we should be at to be able to deal with the risks that were being proposed.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in that meeting, it's fair to say there was no discussion about conflicting intelligence or conflicting information about the duration?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It's just vague for me, but I believe people were talking about what if, the what if situations should they stay, and but I don't recall the specific discussion.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so did it concern you then that you're hearing from other people that this could be longer but the planning is only for the weekend?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, based on my experience, that was pretty normal to have a variety -- almost every protest we've had, whether it was the G8, G20, the farmer's protest, the numbers vary widely leading into the actual protest event. That is a normal situation, in my experience.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you were confident then that the City was prepared and that OPS was prepared?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was confident that we were prepared for that first weekend, with the assumption that they were leaving after the weekend.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so how did that first weekend go in terms of what you expected and what actually happened?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, based on the assumption that they were going to leave after the weekend, we all thought it went quite well. There wasn't any violence. People were protesting. It was managed. There were no major incidents that weekend other than, you know, the honking -- there was -- you know, there was the disruption to the neighbourhoods and -- but from the perspective of if they would have left after that weekend, it probably would have been very much an insignificant event compared to what it turned out to be.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, there are documents that suggest that the City was upset about certain incidents that weekend, such as the National War Memorial being desecrated, the Terry Fox statue as well. Did that raise any concern for you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, we were concerned obviously with some of that -- those behaviours and what happened, but, you know, in my timeline, it was a -- it was -- if it would have ended after the weekend, they were unfortunate incidents and they were dealt with, and everybody would have moved on and we would have cleaned up the city heading into the following week. So from the perspective of, you know, could it -- was that first weekend managed perfectly? They never are. Were there incidents? There always are. Was there any extreme violence or anybody seriously injured? No. Was there incredible disruption to the people that lived in downtown, and other people were disrupted by the physical presence of the vehicles, the noise, the fumes? Absolutely. But in my window, three days of that, we could have got past that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I want to take you now to OTT10560, and these are text messages between you and former Chair Deans. That's okay. We're just waiting for them to be pulled up.
The Registrar (POEC)
Sorry, did you mean 10560?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
10560.
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if we can zoom in, they're on page 3. Let's go to page 3. Okay. And if we zoom in a little bit more? Okay. And my understanding is this is a text from Chair Deans; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And she says to you, "Hi, Steve. Questions are being asked about why heavy trucks were allowed into the core. I have heard a couple of explanations from police but wonder what your thoughts are." (As read) And you say, "The problem is that we don't have enough locations that could park all those vehicles and we didn't want them just parking their vehicles in neighbourhoods and other streets and walking away. So it was a negotiation to balance their need to get downtown and get them to park in controlled areas." (As read) So can you explain the rationale that you're laying out here?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, I'm reflecting the discussions we had with police on the rationale for allowing those trucks in -- into the core that first weekend. And the assumption was that they were going to leave. They had previous experience with the farmer's convoy where tractors and other heavy trucks came into the core. They did leave after the event. It wasn't a significant event from a policing perspective. And the comment back here is that police made a decision in terms of how were they going to manage the influx of trucks coming in. And if the streets weren't going to be closed, and basically, a zone created -- a no-go zone for vehicles wasn't going to be created, the risk was they were going to leave their vehicles on the 417 and neighbourhoods all over the city and just walk away and leave the parks and disrupt the entire city. And so the strategy, from what I understand, it was to try and get them into a footprint to be able to contain them and be able to manage the protesters in a smaller area, so that's what I'm reflecting in that text message back.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of that strategy, was the City consulted on that strategy?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We were in the discussions, but it's not our decision in terms of how the police -- what Ottawa Police chose to do in terms of their operational tactics to manage the event. But we were integrated with our Traffic Incident Management Group and others on the -- on our Emergency Operations Group with respect to facilitating that decision, because once they made the decision, we had to reroute buses. We had to reroute ambulances, fire trucks. We had to change all our protocols in terms of being able to sustain our services, the continuity of our services. Garbage pickup, snow removal, all those things had to be looked at from the perspective of how do we work around that area. And we had to create an emergency lane within that zone, protect that emergency lane for emergency vehicles. So, yes, we were engaged in facilitating the outcomes or the mitigating factors to support police in terms of their strategy.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did the City inform the OPS of the impacts that would result on the city because of the strategy? So by-law infractions, trucks into, you know, non-truck areas, effects on businesses and residence, was that something that was communicated to the police?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I'm not aware if that was specifically discussed in terms of a conversation. I don't know.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what I think you're telling me is that OPS made the decision, informed the City, and you worked with them to achieve whatever changes and modifications and accommodations needed to be made?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The role of the City when the police are the lead in an event like this is to support the police and their activities. That's the role we played throughout this entire three-week period.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Regardless of the impact on residents and businesses and the city services?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, we manage our own city services, but the challenge of course is -- and the City of Ottawa can't direct me, the mayor, council can't direct the police chief in operational matters, the decisions that he or she are making. And so the City takes the -- they -- you know, if you look at the structure of Emergency Management setup, the City effectively is there in a support role for law enforcement, to ensure that they can get what they need to be able to fulfil their mandate.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what did Chief Sloly say was the basis for allowing the heavy trucks in, or having to allow the heavy trucks in?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, at the time, I believe Chief Sloly and others were talking about whether they had the legal authority to prevent the trucks from coming into the streets based on their Charter rights. And that was the rationale that I had heard at the time. There was also the operational aspect based on the assumption that they were going to leave, that keeping the footprint contained would be more beneficial to the police to be able to manage the crowds and not spread their resources too thin because it always is a challenge for resources. And they also felt that from an egress point of view, it would facilitate an egress when the protest was over because then they could guide them out of the city from one place rather than having to manage it in terms of multiple places all over the city if the trucks happened to be parked there.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if we go to page 5 of this document, Chair Deans asks, “If the ones that have left come back, will they be allowed downtown?” And then you say, “No, once a truck leaves, no other trucks including the ones that left can return into the zone. It's a bone of contention with the truckers who feel that if one goes out someone else should be left in.”
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Should be let in.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, let in.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, I have that here, so. Typical typo with auto correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No, I thought maybe it was my eyes. Okay. Can you explain that, that it was a bone of contention with the protesters? Where are you getting this information from?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
My understanding from Ottawa Police was that once some truckers did leave -- there weren't many, but some did leave -- that the remaining organizers wished another truck to fill that space, because they didn't have enough places to park them. So they were being blocked from coming into that zone to try and limit the amount of trucks once we realized that they had basically clogged up the entire downtown. So we were trying to keep them out of that zone, particularly in front of -- in the downtown core, or on some of the side streets. And so -- and then that kind of turned into the notion, could be put somewhere else, on the Breton Flats or some other location, SJAM. They ended up on the Queen Elizabeth Driveway. police were trying to manage where they could park them and still manage them without spreading their footprint out too wide.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we heard evidence on Friday that trucks that were leaving the red zone early days were being allowed back in. Do you have any information about that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's contrary to the information that I have
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how often would you say you were in touch with Chief Sloly during this time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not often. They were more formal meetings, so I had a few calls with him. He would call me, or I would reach out to him, but most of our interaction was on scheduled calls that we would have, either as a -- at the staff level, or with our elected officials. Or with the discussions -- most of my calls with him were -- not most of my calls, but several of my calls were also with the intergovernmental calls with the federal and provincial officials that we were talking to.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, and we’ll get to those in a minute. And so do you agree that the City as an entity through bylaws, has authority to close roads?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We do have that authority
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But in this case, exercising that authority was not contemplated. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, because police took a different strategy in terms of how were they going to manage the protest. So we wouldn't close roads without the support of the police partners, Ottawa Police in particular. Because if you're closing roads and you're putting hard barricades, we had -- and I had some counselors, you know, tell me that -- or ask me to put barricades in front of streets, trying to block streets from other trucks going in the neighborhoods. And the challenge most people don't understand is that life still goes on despite the fact you’re in this crisis, and that fire trucks, paramedics, snowplows, garbage pick up, maybe water service crews if a pipe bursts in the winter which we we’re having a lot of those, have to get into those streets. So if you’re blocking with a hard barricade any street in Ottawa, unless you're closing the street completely, and you're not allowing anyone in there -- but if residents are there, they are obviously allowed to go back in -- you need to staff that barricade with a physical person -- with a person who can allow people to enter and access that depending on the requirement legally. And so, the notion that you know, we would close streets on our own has been thrown out, why did the city of Ottawa close streets? Well, we would never close streets without the agreement, collaboration, and participation of Ottawa Police to ensure that it aligned with their operational plans, to ensure that they could stop them, and they had enough resources to put people at the actual access, and that it didn't impede with something else that they were planning with respect to managing the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So did the City ask the police then, Chief Sloly or anyone else at Ottawa police service, to look into that, to consider that, to work with the City to achieve some road closures?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No. There were road closures after the fact, later on as the weeks progressed, but initially, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then on February 4th and 5th, which was the second weekend, there were several additional convoys that entered the city. And I believe you are aware of that at the time, that they, right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so, that wasn't - at that point I understand they actually did go into the city, they were not stopped or turned away in any way. Was there any session prior to that to try to prevent them somehow from entering and joining the existing convoy that was already downtown?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, I can't say it's a categoric no. I mean, I think they were trying to guide them and prevent them from entering certain areas, but there was still the notion that we can't prevent them from their rights to protest and come in, and that's the posture that was taken for that second week.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So for the second weekend the posture of OPS was still that there was no legal authority to stop them from entering on that second weekend?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you know whether that posture ever changed throughout the -- at least throughout the time that Chief Sloly was was Chief?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There were some streets blocked off later, in terms of trying to prevent them from getting into some of the streets. We were able to stop them, but that was later in the period. But the only time that the streets were actually closed off and barricaded, where the red zone was created, was going to the third week, and then when the Emergency Act was invoked, then it got locked down.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, we have some notes from the Ottawa Police indicating that the City had asked Ottawa Police to harden the downtown core. Do you have any understanding of what that means, or where this might have come from, this solution?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The City asked or police asked?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The City asked the police to harden the downtown core.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There was --
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any information?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, the only recollection I have of that is those were elected officials who wanted a hardening of the downtown core, and to prevent more vehicles to come in, into the residential neighborhoods in particular.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The councillors you mean?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, you talked a little bit about overflow spaces, Sir John MacDonald, which everybody refers to as SJAM, and Queen Elizabeth. What were the other designated overflow areas?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There were two, there was Coventry Road, which happened on the initial first weekend; and the other one was 15 -- I think it's 1500 Bronson was another area where police directed some vehicles in the latter days of the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let's talk about Coventry. Do you know how the Coventry Road stadium parking lot ended up being used by protesters on that first weekend?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Police didn't have enough room for all the trucks in the downtown core, and asked the City, our General Manager of Parks, Recreation, Culture, and Facilities, Mr. Chenier, Dan Chenier, if they could use that as an overflow for the weekend, and Mr. Chenier agreed to allow the trucks to go there for that weekend.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And that parking lot is city owned?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s a -- for most people know, that's the baseball stadium on Coventry.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That's right. And who determined then the use of 1500 Bronson, how did that come about?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Again, that was overflow when they started moving vehicles on that -- on the last weekend when police went into tactical operations, they were using 1500 Bronson two to the vehicles as a staging area to be able to compound the vehicles.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding is that 1500 Bronson is a federal building?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it's not owned by -- that's not owned by the City?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the City wasn't asked for permission to use that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But they were asked to use the Coventry Road baseball stadium parking lot?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And me understanding was that the use of that was only meant to be for the first weekend; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding is that the tenants that were renting the space or not happy about the -- what was happening at Coventry Road. Is that your understanding as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right. They expressed to us in writing that they wanted them out. They weren't happy, it was disrupting their business, they were trying to get ready for the baseball season.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in fact, they wrote some angry letters to the City asking the City to revoke OPS’s - --
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- access to that site. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were these issues raised with OPS?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the response?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, OPS didn't have the resources to be able to remove the people that were encamped on Coventry Road at the baseball stadium. At that point they couldn't get them out. There was no way to remove them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding is that it was initially meant for protesters to park and then make their way into downtown, and it looks like that's not what ended up happening. What's your understanding about how that area was being used?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, that's exactly what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to shuttle people back and forth so they could go and join the protest, but it turned into an encampment, and I'd say, a logistical compound to support the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And are you aware of any safety or security issues with that site in particular?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t have any personal knowledge, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did the OPS say anything about why they couldn’t evacuate or get that encampment shut down?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well OPS are on record saying that they were worried about, you know, potential for weapons there or violence should they go in. They were quite entrenched, according to Ottawa Police, and there were concerns about their ability to go in and safely remove those people without significant violence.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I want to take you now to OTT 4144. This is an OECCG -- oh, this one says OECCG. Well, I guess we can use both acronyms. Update 10. And this is on February 5th. And these updates, I understand, were put out daily? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And these are the Emergency Operations Control Group putting out a situational update as to what’s going on so that everybody is aware of the situation on the ground? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in the second paragraph there, it says ---
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, counsel.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes?
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
I believe this is a draft.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
I don’t know if it’s been finalized or not. I just can’t see the top of the document. My apologies. You just said it’s the update. I think it’s the proposed update.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The final one is identical, but it isn’t -- we received it after -- anyway, my notes were not finalized at the time. So we do have the final one, which says the same thing in terms of what I’m going to take the witness to.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
That’s fine. I just wasn’t sure. Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, no problem. So on the second paragraph, and the final version says the same thing, it says: “There were about 13 convoys that arrived today, and unfortunately they refused to park in the designated overflow space. Instead, they came into the city.” (As read) And so in this case, what was the designated overflow space on February 5th for them to go into? It wasn’t Coventry, because I think at that point, Coventry had already been taken over.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was it 1500 Bronson?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about Sir John A. MacDonald?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Sir John A. MacDonald had some vehicles initially and then they added some more, but then they stopped. They felt that was becoming a risk too because it was getting -- it was being extended quite deep going west and they were worried about blocking -- potentially blocking the interprovincial bridge. That was a big concern of the police on both sides, in Quebec and Ontario. And so they were trying to protect that particular area at all costs. But I don’t know where the overflow was for this.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how they were able to come in despite there being designated overflow spaces for those convoys?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so can you confirm then that the truckers -- the area that the truckers took up in downtown grew because these 13 convoys entered the downtown area?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Definitely.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I’m going to take you to OTT 10455. And this is a chat that seems to be among people within the Emergency Operations Centre perhaps. And so I just wanted to confirm who some of these people are, just so that we can be sure that they are in some way related to the Emergency Management. Beth Gooding, I believe, is the Director of Public Safety? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who is Nicole Ward?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Nicole Ward is a staff member in the Emergency Management Group.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Kelly Cochrane?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
She’s also a staff member.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And Steve Box?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He’s my Chief of Staff.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Ryan Perrault?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He’s the Associate General Manager of Emergency and Protective Services. He’s on a secondment there for professional development.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Andrea Lanthier- Seymour?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, she’s our Director of Corporate Communications, but she’s now -- at the time, she was kind of there, plus with Service Ottawa, overseeing Service Ottawa, Director.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So were any of these people representatives to the NCRCC?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct. Kelly Cochrane was embedded with that NCRCC and there was another -- there’s a few other people, but I don’t see them on this list, that were also part of the NRCC. We had City staff from our Public Safety Group embedded in that group.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And just for the record, the NCRCC is the National Capital Region Control Group -- Control Centre?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Command Centre.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Command Centre. Thank you. And so there seemed to be, in this chat, situational updates. Can we generally take these situational updates as accurate?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to talk a little bit about towing. Who was responsible, in your view, for ensuring sufficient towing capacity to tow convoy trucks or any trucks that were parked illegally?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well towing is the -- you know, it’s the responsibility of police and bylaw services. It would be those two groups that have authority to tow trucks in the City of Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So both the City and OPS?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right. That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what happened with the towing capacity in this situation? My understanding is that there wasn’t sufficient towing capacity. So maybe you can explain what happened? What the situation was?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well it became evident early on that we needed to access heavy tow trucks, and they aren’t a common vehicle. We explored what the City had in its own inventory. We had two heavy tow trucks with OC Transpo that could have been utilized. Even though our staff were very reluctant to participate and do that, because they felt for their safety. And we then started, at the NRCC, we ended up calling tow truck companies, other cities, the Province, the Federal Government, looking to see if we could access heavy duty tow trucks for the use -- for our use in the event the police needed them, or we needed them. And we were getting declined by everybody we called, and that they didn’t want to get involved. So we had no access to any tow trucks, other than the two that we had, and our staff were reluctant to go in.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So was the city taking the lead then on procuring towing capacity on behalf of both the City and OPS?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, both were doing it. We were working with the police. The police were making calls and we were also making calls for our sources. We found out and tried to contact anybody we knew to see if we could get tow trucks into Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were those -- were any of those efforts successful?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, we didn’t get any.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned that some of the tow truck companies refused to tow vehicles that were associated with the convoy, or they were not willing to tow. What’s your understanding of why they were refusing to tow?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well there were several reasons. The first was their own safety. I think they felt that trying to tow a vehicle without the site being secured, in amongst the protestors, you could imagine, you know, it could be quite conflictual when you’re trying to take someone’s truck and people are still around the truck. So they were concerned about that. They were concerned about the damage, potentially, to their own vehicle, should things get out of hand. And it’s a cost to their business. Some were concerned that they do business with truckers and trucking companies, and that would damage them reputationally and they would lose business. Some were sympathizers or supported the protests and didn’t feel that they were going to offer their services to do it. Those were generally the reasons.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And these are companies that the City has on contract? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, the City does have a towing standing offer, but we don’t do a lot of heavy equipment vehicle towing. We have heavy equipment, obviously. Most of our towing contracts are to tow parked vehicles in and around the city who are illegally parked, or for whatever reason, or for enforcement issues. But yes, we do have contracts with tow truck businesses in Ottawa who have, in their inventory, heavy tow trucks to be able to use in the event one of our dump trucks or heavy trucks needs to be towed, or any other situation.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is your understanding that the refusal was coming both from the existing contractors with the City and with others that you were reaching out to?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, because we reached out to our standing offer contractors first and they refused.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And would this be -- were they contractually obligated to respond when the City called on them?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, they were.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what measures did the City take to enforce these contracts, if any?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well it was a short time frame. You can’t enforce it in a matter of days or weeks. But certainly our procurement people and our lawyers were looking at the contracts to start taking action against those tow truck companies. But you couldn’t fulfill that in the time period that we had and actually take any significant action to make them do it. And even then, to make them do it probably would have been a difficult situation at that stage of the protests.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so the two heavy truck, tow truck vehicles that OC Transpo had, did those end up being used?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why not?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well they -- a lot of people, you know, have asked me, and at the time, were, you know, demanding that we start ticketing and towing the vehicles out of that area in the neighbourhoods, and particularly on Wellington Street, but the reality is, until -- and you saw it on the last weekend when police moved in and started clearing the red zone, you need to secure the area where the actual physical truck is, protect it before you can bring the tow truck in and be able to move it out. You can't safely tow a heavy vehicle like that that's end-to-end, bumper to bumper with a whole bunch of other trucks, and civilian people and protesters are all around that truck, and you're trying to bring in a heavy truck, and police haven't been able to secure the scene. So until you can actually hopscotch your way down the street, push them back, clear the spot, get the truck out and move it and then keep moving in a systematic way, it's a very volatile, unsafe situation to bring in a tow truck into a very crowded area, expect people to move, and expect the tow trucker to somehow get in there and do their work when people are potentially going to be resisting the ability of the tow truck operator to do that. So police weren't able to -- obviously, they weren't able to clear that area and protect each individual truck, so the tow truck could get in. So it wasn't -- it was a non starter to be able to tow truck. Even if we had tow truck companies, we wanted to retain them to have them available for when police ultimately went in operationally or tactically, but it was a non starter until that happened for us to think about towing any heavy truck that was in the compressed areas on Wellington Street, some of the downtown streets where they were all bunched up.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so do you know if -- where the trucks came from that were eventually used for the police operation that cleared the area?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, once the authorities came in under the Act, the police were able to get tow trucks to actually come and compel them to come is my understanding. And some of them came with the decals off their vehicles and, you know, they came incognito so no one would know who they are, but they then -- it just seemed to be a -- all of a sudden, we had a lot of tow trucks available in those final few days before the last weekend.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But the City wasn't the one procuring -- didn't procure those?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Police. Police did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The police did. Okay. So does the City have any knowledge of where they came from specifically?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We do, but I don't have it off the top of my head.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you give us a sense for how by-law was being enforced outside of the immediate red zone? So I understand that within the red zone there were a lot of issues with safety, but outside of the red zone, we heard on Friday that vehicles that appeared to be associated with the convoy either because they had flags or something indicating that maybe they were part of the protest, that they were not being towed, even if they were outside even as far as, you know, some areas of Councillor Fleury's ward, east of the red zone. Do you have a sense for how By-law was enforcing issues outside of that zone?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, it's difficult. I mean, you can target vehicles based on the fact some may have a flag on it, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're part of the protest. So the market and other areas east of the zone where - - on Wellington Street towards Elgin, the War Memorial, there were all kinds of cars and people, people still live down there. So the challenge for By-law was not towing and catching the wrong fish in the net and towing vehicles that you think are part of the protest who happen to just live in the area and park there. So it was a very complicated situation for By-law. They were ticketing. They were towing vehicles that were blocking the emergency lane in the red zone. They were clearing that out. And in the neighbourhoods, they were ticketing. They started ticketing, but there were also a lot of protest vehicles and people congregated in those side streets, and they were working with police to ensure the safety of our By-law officers. So when real activity started happening is when police and By- law integrated into teams and went out together, which protected the By-law officers. By-law officers aren't trained or equipped to deal with those kinds of situations. That's not their role.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when that integration happened?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I believe it was in the second week, but I don't remember the date.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was happening then?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think it was when they did the surge and -- I forget the term police use, surge and contain or -- I forget the term they use where they started sending teams into the neighbourhoods. That's when they first started integrating By-law with police, so that By-law had security to protect them as they went in because they felt very insecure about fulfilling their role in some of those more volatile areas.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So prior to that integration, By-law was acting independently and ticketing and towing as they saw fit?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Outside of the red zone. In the red zone, no. They were guided by and working collaboratively with police. Police were concerned about the volatility that it might create if they started going in and ticketing or trying to tow vehicles within the red zone. And, you know, I was advised of that early on by Kim Ayotte. And from my own experience, that seemed like a reasonable request. I know people said -- well, there's a difference of opinion whether police directed By-law, or it was done in collaboration. Police can't direct By-law. Quite frankly, By-law can do what they need to do under they by-laws of the city, but we were working under an integrated incident management system, which basically, police are the incident commander. They're leading the response. The City is supporting and working in collaboration, and it was a reasonable request. Whether it was a direction or not is irrelevant to me, but when I heard that and I was advised of that, I said, that's reasonable not to expect By-law to go in on their own volition and enforce without police knowing that they're enforcing and creating a potentially volatile situation in a crowded area, which police would have to eventually respond to. And as our By-law Chief Roger Chapman was concerned about the safety of our By-law officers by trying to do that on their own.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So then your understanding is that the police was not preventing By-law from exercising its authority; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, what I'm saying is police and By-law agreed, whether they were directed or not. There's a dispute about whether -- dispute, there's a disagreement about whether police actually directed that By-law not go in there. I think that's irrelevant. They had agreed that they would not go in without police support.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you say go in, you're talking about the red zone?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so outside of the red zone, before the integration, could By-law ticket and tow as they saw fit?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They could, but there were also areas that were also volatile, because once the truckers displaced into the neighbourhoods, some of those streets, particularly downtown on Kent, on Slater, on Bank, they were jammed up with trucks and people, and it was the same situation as on Wellington. So it was still a potentially volatile situation. So By-law was using -- was still operating under the agreement with Ottawa Police. And in other areas, in the market and some of the other areas where it was less volatile, they were still issuing tickets as per their regular jobs, and in other parts of the city.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But not really towing is my understanding.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There was very limited towing. Most of the towing initially happened in the emergency lanes where some lighter vehicles, pickup trucks, et cetera, were blocking the emergency lane that gave access to the ambulances, fire trucks and other police vehicles in the event there was a 9-1-1 call or whatever in that area, businesses or whoever.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so when you speak of the OPS and By-law integration, is that when -- we had heard on Friday that when some residents would call 3-1-1 to report a By- law violation, they would be redirected to NCRCC. Is that part of the integration that you're speaking of?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you're saying that happened sometime in the second week; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The second week is when the police and By-law created integrated teams, that's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I believe.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so just on the point of emergency lanes, my understanding is that a lot of the towing that happened early on was to, as you say, keep those emergency lanes open. Can you describe a little bit the emergency lanes, if you will? We've seen images that show some streets appear to be completely blocked by trucks. Was every street supposed to have a lane open for emergency, or was it just certain arteries that had a lane open?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't know the specifics. I believe it was certain arteries. I believe Mr. Ayotte is now testifying and I think that'd be a question better posed to him.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Fair enough. So I want to talk a little bit about the city's municipal state of emergency. And I want to take you to OPS5187. And this is from January 31st, which is pretty early on. This looks to be a briefing that occurred with Chief Sloly and the mayor and some councillors. You were there as well and Kim Ayotte. It happened at 11. This is in the institutional report of the City, so I assume you recall this briefing.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so it looks like the Chief gave an update. And then if we go to the questions at the bottom. So “Questions”; there we go. And do you know; the questions that are being posed, we can see who’s posing them, but in terms of the answer, do you know who was answering questions at this time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Just one moment. I just want to review this. (SHORT PAUSE)
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Most of it would have been answered by Chief Sloly or his staff.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if you go to 6, if we scroll down a little bit, if we look at question number 6, Councillor Luloff says: “When do we know when to invoke a state of emergency?” And the answer is: “Infringing on this if we need more resources than we currently have, but does indicate to the public that this is getting more serious and all hands are on deck. Will consider and may make recommendations to the Mayors [sic] office.” So who has the responsibility to recommend to the Mayor’s office whether or not to invoke a state of emergency?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Ultimately it’s me, and I usually receive that through Kim Ayotte, our General Manager of Emergency and Protective Services.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so is it fair to say that you probably answered 6(e)?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That sounds like me, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then so then you said: “Will consider and may make recommendations to the Mayors [sic] office.” Did you consider it at this point, January 31st?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, it was -- it’s always under consideration when we were in that situation. And it’s a question of timing, and declaring an emergency at the municipal level doesn’t give the Municipality much other than a sense of urgency, a sense of, “Hey, there’s some real issues here,” and gets everybody focused. There are limited authorities that come to the City by declaring an emergency at the municipal level.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so you didn’t recommend, I take it, on January 31st that the Mayor declare a state of emergency?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not at that time, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why not?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Because as I said, there was very little that it would give us. The biggest thing on a state of emergency is, either get the attention of other levels of government that we’re in trouble and we need help. Sometimes the Province can declare before we do, or the Federal Government, depending on the situation, obviously, but normally it's the Province. And the other thing that the emergency -- declaration of emergency gives us is benefits around procurement and decision-making, where the Mayor has more authority to make decisions without having to convene a full Council meeting and all the protocol, the process that goes behind that. So we can be more efficient around our decision-making, our procurement, the allocation of resources internally, but it doesn’t give the Mayor any other powers with respect to -- other than the bylaws we already have with respect to invoking any other authorities that he may not already have.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. But as you mentioned, it does have other functions, such as signalling to other levels of government ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- or even, you know, for the public to know, and maybe for the residents to know that the City is taking this seriously, right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever tell the Mayor not -- that it wasn’t -- that you did not recommend it? Meaning, did he ever ask you and you say, “No, not yet,” with respect to whether you should -- whether he should declare a state of emergency?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t recall having a specific conversation, but I know we did talk about it. He raised it. I know he raised the issue of invoking or enacting or declaring an emergency at the municipal level, but I don’t recall the specific conversations. But it was suggested.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So we know that on February 6th, the City did declare a state of emergency. So in your view, what was the tipping point; why was that the right time to do it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Because it became evident that they weren’t leaving; police were reporting that they did not have enough resources to end it. There was a sense that this was going to be a prolonged activity by that point, and we felt that by declaring it, we would effectively notify the community and our organization that this was serious, and that the Mayor will have the authorities that I talked about, the limited authorities to move quicker. And, quite frankly, and it's in another email that -- from a meeting I was in -- in the minutes from a meeting I was in where I really felt and the Mayor felt that we wanted the Province to also step in, because they actually have authorities that they declare an emergency.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I’ll take you to that document. It’s ONT311. And it looks to be a call between the Federal Government, the Province, and the City of Ottawa. And it took place on February 6th at 11:00 a.m. And so you recall this call with Deputy Minister Stewart?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And who was there from the Province?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
In this meeting, I don’t know if anyone was here at the meeting from the Province.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’d have to look at the -- there were so many meetings, I don’t recall the attendees of each one.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we go to the second bullet point, it says: “Steve Kanellakos, City Manager from Ottawa, provided an update from the city’s perspective.” And it says: “Steve Kanellakos is concerned about the posture of local councillors who are pointing the finger at the province and federal government to provide assistance to resolve the matter.” And then it says there in bold letters: “Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson is going to declare a local emergency in the City of Ottawa at 4:30 p.m. The expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this.” You said in the meeting that that was the intention of the state of emergency.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what kind of pressure were you hoping to put on the Province?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, up on that point the Province was taking the posture that this was a law enforcement issue, and that Ottawa Police should be dealing with -- the Ottawa Police Chief should be dealing with the other Police Chiefs and the OPP Commissioner and -- to get the resources they needed, and that they weren’t going to get involved politically. We were hoping that they would exercise powers around -- you know, through the Ministry of Transportation and other legislations they had. I don’t know the extent of what they had at their disposal, but through the regulations to be able to put more pressure on the protesters to try and help us end it. And so the provincial legislation, the Premier has a lot more authority, in terms of powers, once he declares - - he or she declares an emergency. And at that point -- up on that point, they hadn’t declared. I think they declared after Windsor ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
On the 11th.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- on the 11th.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so was part of this, then, an effort for the -- was this trying to encourage the Province or to signal to the Province to also declare a state of emergency provincially?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so from the City’s perspective, did it consider that the Province wasn’t doing enough to be engaged in the issues and to help resolve it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, I wouldn’t characterize it as that. I would characterize it that the Province, clearly through the Solicitor-General, felt that this is a law enforcement matter that could be dealt with through existing authorities that law enforcement have ,and that the police should be working together to deal with the resources and what they need under their existing powers to resolve this. That’s the -- that was the initial feedback that we received from them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then it says -- so if we go close to the bottom, it says: “Ottawa City council is likely going to ask the Premier and Prime Minister to intervene directly. The Mayor of Ottawa Jim Watson is feeling the pressure and want[s] this issue to be pivoted back to Ontario and Canada. City of Ottawa is looking for a way out.” Can you explain what’s mean that by, “City of Ottawa is looking for a way out”? What would you have communicated that led to that notation?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, the -- at the time, it was obvious to me that unless we received more resources or -- and got help from the federal government or provincial government with respect to accessing some of the regulations that they have under their authority, that it would be very difficult for the current resources -- the resources at the time that the Ottawa Police had and the City had at that stage in the protest, where they were very entrenched, to be able to move them out, and the feeling was that the federal government and the provincial government would need to get more involved in supporting our resources and giving us what other tools, particularly around existing -- at that time it was around existing regulations. The meetings we had with the Minister of Transport -- or the Deputy Minister of Transportation at the federal level and at the provincial level was about how do we get access to -- you know, are there things we can do for insurance around their CVOR are the things that they have at their -- under their authority that we can put pressure on the truckers to move them out without direct enforcement.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll see in a bit that you did speak to the Solicitor General, you and the Mayor had a discussion about what could be done. What -- generally before we look at those documents, what was the general feedback from the Solicitor General to those suggestions?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
As I said, the Solicitor General at the time was Sylvie Jones. She’s in a different portfolio now, Ministry now. But she made it clear, my recollection, that this was a law enforcement matter. It wasn’t for elected officials to be getting involved in that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so had the City declared a State of Emergency sooner, would that, you think, have brought in other levels of government sooner to assist?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I think the declaration of, at the provincial level, when things escalated and we started having issues at the -- at a significant border crossing.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I want to take you to 2218. And this is now with respect to the City of Ottawa’s injunction. So I’m going to move on to that topic. So if you go to the first email there from Chief Sloly at the bottom, he says -- this is dated January 30th. Yeah, there it is. He says: “Steve, thank you for the call we just had and for your agreement too for the City of Ottawa commence the former process of preparing for and seeking an injunction in regard to the demonstration. My general counsel, Christiane Huneault, will be OPS lead on this matter. She will have the full support of the OPS to provide the information required by the City for this injunction application. We recognize that the City will have the final say on whether or not to make the final injunction submission based on your own assessment.” (As read) And what was your understanding -- you had had a call with the Chief about this. And what was he asking the City to do on that call?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well he reached out first to our City Solicitor, David White, who effectively referred him to me, because David White didn’t have the authority to proceed with that. It was under my delegated authority. And Chief Sloly asked me to -- he was looking for another tool in his toolbox, based on discussion with his executive command, and he asked me to look into the possibility of getting an injunction to give them another tool in the toolbox to be able to do enforcement to enforce some of the issues that were arising that first weekend. And I made a commitment to him that -- I spoke to our City Solicitor first after he had emailed me. Then I spoke to Chief Sloly and I made a commitment to Chief Sloly that we would pursue it and work with his team to see what that might look like.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you have an understanding for what -- an injunction for what, exactly?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No. It was very broad based in scope. It wasn’t defined at that time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So he didn’t come to you to ask for anything specific? He just said “an injunction”?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And he says though: “We recognize that the City will have final say on whether or not to make the final injunction submission based on your own assessment.” (As read) So he seems to be putting the ball on the City to say this is your decision. If you want to do it, go ahead, based on your assessment; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well actually, in fairness to Chief Sloly, I -- he’s writing what I asked him -- what I told him. I said, “We will make the final assessment.” So he’s confirming that in this email, of what I requested -- what I advised him in response.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you’re saying in the end it’s up to the City?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And on February 4th, I’m going to take you to an email, OTT 3935. And the email of February 4 -- right. So, Councillor Fleury says: “Are you aware of this idea?” (As read) And he posted a Twitter link. My understanding is that was a link to a Twitter post asking the City to seek an injunction? Are you aware of that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I am.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you saw it at the time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we go up, this gets forwarded to you then. Or it was -- it was CC’d to you by Councillor Fleury, and then you respond to him and to the City Solicitor, David White, copying other people, saying: “Everyone has ideas, but if they paid attention to the multiple briefings that have been provided to council and the media, they would know that the Chief, and I, and City Solicitor have addressed this idea. We have initiated the process last weekend to go get an injunction. The problem is that once we get it, we have to action it, which means that police have to be prepared to initiate a tactical response to remove the trucks and protests. We are working with police to gather the evidence required to successfully get an injunction and for police to tell us how an injunction would be enforced. This is actively being worked on.” (As read) So what was done between the 30th of January then when you had that discussion with Chief Sloly, to now February 4, when Councillor Fleury is saying, “Has this been thought of?” Essentially, “Have you thought of this idea?”
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, the -- in-between the conversation with Chief Sloly and this, discussions have been initiated between the legal counsel of Ottawa Police and our City Solicitor and his staff. And they were sorting out what would be required to get one, and our City Solicitor, I don’t have in front of me, but posed at least a half dozen questions, maybe more, to the police solicitor, asking answers to the questions to be able to successfully move forward with an injunction. And my understanding is they never replied. They were having discussions in-between, but they never replied in writing to the questions our City Solicitor felt he needed to be able to proceed. And one of the concerns which our Solicitor had and that I had, was that going and getting an injunction, if it was broad in scope, rather than something very specific, but at the time, the discussion was broader in scope, but it was never properly defined, was that once we had it, there’d be a public expectation that we would actually enforce it and go for contempt. And the concern was, at that point, that police didn’t have the resources to enforce a broad scope injunction, to be able to do -- to basically get the benefit of the injunction, and that erode public confidence, and I think our community confidence, and our elected officials’ confidence, because once we have that tool, they would rightly expect that we’d be able to utilize it and get results for the things that were happening on the streets of Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you say that the police never answered the questions that the City was asking in order to be able to finalize that ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
At that time, correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know if answers were ever received to those questions?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They were not.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But the City went ahead anyway and did obtain an injunction ultimately on February 14? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We did. We had to assess at that point, you know, did they have the resources? More resources were coming into Ottawa at that point. The police presence was increasing. And we restricted it to basically what’s in the City jurisdiction, which are City bylaws. We didn’t broaden the scope of the injunction. So it was fires, you know, parking and all those other things that were happening on the streets, within our own mandate of council-passed bylaws.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in the end, you didn’t need the police information in order to obtain the injunction, because it was obtained without the police information anyway; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right. Kim Ayotte swore to it.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in hindsight, could this have been pursued sooner? Because you’re having the discussion on January 30th with Chief Sloly, and it’s not actually heard and obtained until February 14, two weeks later - - more than two weeks later.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
In hindsight, I wish things would have lined up where we could have got an injunction earlier, because it probably would have helped. But getting an injunction where police weren’t in the position, from a resource perspective, to deal with it, and not being able to define what they needed, and that back and forth, it delayed it absolutely. And you know, looking back, is that something that, you know, could have been done sooner? Possibly. But we weren’t prepared to go forward. I didn’t think it was reasonable to go forward until we all understood how the injunction fit into the police operational plans.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But you never understood that because they didn’t answer your questions?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did the injunction obtained by Ms. Li put pressure on the City to get one as well? I understand citizens were not happy about that.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, absolutely. I think Ms. Li did a remarkable thing and put herself out there, a lot of courage, and got that injunction. And it had an effect. It did bring down the horns. They kind of came back later, but it had a significant effect. And of course there was pressure. There was pressure from the public from our council not understanding why the City wouldn't move to get an injunction also. We felt that pressure, but we couldn't get to a place where we understood what the scope of that injunction was in terms of what police needed.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But in the end you didn't need that because you defined the scope yourself; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We did, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever talk to Keith Wilson, who was counsel for some of the protestors on the ground, about the City's injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't recall talking to Mr. Wilson about the injunction, but I stand to be corrected, but I don't recall that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. They have produced some texts, kind of at the last minute, that have some of those discussions. So my understanding is you did, I just don't know the context of those discussions that you had.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
If I can see the documents I might be able to comment.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
See if I can find it. It would be up to -- we didn't give notice of these, obviously. They came in, I think, last night or the night before, but we do have a doc ID for them. Thank you. It's HRF1466.
The Registrar (POEC)
I'm unable to locate that document in the database.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It appears it is in the party database at this time. It's HRF, four zeroes, 1466. Okay, while we're looking for that, we can move on to something else and then we'll see if we can get that because ---
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, Counsel, these are text messages with Mr. Arpin? I thought you said these were text messages with Mr. Kanellakos.
It is with Mr. Arpin, but it mentions a call with Mr. Kanellakos.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The texts seem to reference a call with Mr. Kanellakos about that.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Okay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So because we don't -- we can't seem to get them, we can move on to some communications that you had with federal officials and provincial officials. So I understand that after the first weekend of protests you had some contact with Deputy Minister of Public Safety Rob Stewart. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how did that discussion come about?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
His office emailed our office, my office, and asked if a meeting could be set up later in the day, and I think we had a telephone conversation, I forget the date, but it was, I remember, late afternoon.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the purpose of the call?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He had reached out to connect because obviously they were -- the Deputy Minister community there and the relevant ministries and the Prime Minister's Office were -- was getting briefed on what was happening, and he wanted to have a better understanding and the situational awareness of what was happening on the ground from our perspective so that he could relay that information back to his Minister, and to the -- and to Cabinet.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So he's reaching out to you to get a better understanding of what's going on?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it wasn't necessarily for him to offer any kind of assistance?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Initially, no. It was "Can we get together and have a conversation about situational awareness? What do you know? What's happening?" They wanted to know our perspective on what was happening.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And after that, I believe that situational awareness calls were set up ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- and that several of them took place, according to your witness statement, you say February 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And these came out of that initial discussion you had with the Deputy Minister on February 2nd?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. When we talked he suggested that we bring together some of his colleagues, Chief Sloly, myself, and initiate some calls to start getting updates on a more frequent basis so they're in the loop.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And according to your witness statement, these meetings sometimes included Jody Thomas from the Privy Council Office; Director David Vigneault from CSIS; Deputy Minister Michael Keenan from Transport; Commissioner Brenda Lucki from the RCMP; Commissioner Tom Carrique from the OPP; former Chief Sloly; Mr. Kim Ayotte; Laurie LeBlanc from MTO; and Deputy Minister Maurio Di Tommaso, the Solicitor General. Did anyone else that you recall attend these meetings, or is that generally ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, that's generally the list, but it grew. It didn't start off with all those people, it kind of evolved over the meetings with more -- you know, pretty typical. We started off with three, four people, and it expanded as the meetings went on.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the purpose of these calls?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Initially, it was to get everyone understanding what was happening on the ground, and for them to tell us what was happening from their perspective. So it was really and update in terms of what's the situation, what's evolving, what's coming, and then it gets turned. After a few meetings it turned into the whole issue of resources, and police from other police services, particularly the RCMP and OPP on those calls, being allocated or redeployed to Ottawa to assist with the event. And then it kind of evolved into when the request was -- it sort of started generally about resources, and after it evolved into the specific request that Chief Sloly made through the Police Board, where the letter was sent by Mayor Watson and Councillor Deans, who was the Chair of the Police Board at that time, asking for 1,800 officers, and part of those 1,800 were civilians, with specialists, to be redeployed to Ottawa. And then the discussions became a lot about what was happening, but when are we getting the resources and how many resources we actually had received.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So my understanding is that letter from former Chair Deans and the Mayor came on in February 7th requesting the 1,800 officers. And so two of the meetings, on the 7th and the 8th, of these situational awareness calls would have been or could have been about that specific request.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They dominated the discussion.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what was the conversation around resources? Obviously resources were needed, but in terms of getting them to Ottawa and how soon they could get here and why they weren't here yet, what was the discussion?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, the central theme was a disagreement on -- between Ottawa Police and the other parties at the federal and provincial level on how many officers were actually here and under the command of Ottawa Police. That was the most relevant part of the discussion.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding of the disagreement? Just about counting -- like it was improper counting, or what was the issue?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, it was -- Ottawa Police had numbers that they believed they had under their command, and RCMP, and OPP less so, but mostly RCMP felt that they had more officers there under the command. So there was a disagreement about how many officers were actually under the authority to be deployed in Operations by Ottawa Police commanders. And it was a frustrating period because we couldn't get to an agreement on how many police officers were actually here in Ottawa from outside from other enforcement agencies.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did that ever get resolved during those -- during the time that those calls were taking place?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I would say no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the last meeting took place on February 8. Why did they stop after the 8th of February?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't know why they stopped after the 8th of February. I don't know why we stopped talking at that point.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Counsel, I just wanted to let you know that the document is available.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
We're going to object to the document being put to Mr. Kanellakos. The document was listed by counsel for the protestors as a document they may put to Mr. Arpin only. It was never indicated to us that it was going to be put by -- put to Mr. Kanellakos. So in accordance with the rules, I believe my friends would need to seek leave.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It was just to be fair to the witness so that he understands the context in which the question was asked, but I can ask it without the context, I'm fine with that.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Again, though, he wouldn't be aware of the context. If it had have been provided, we certainly would have given it to him, but it hasn't been.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That's fine. So to your understanding, though, you did not have a conversation with Keith Wilson about the City's injunction, a call specifically with Mr. Wilson?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I just don't recall.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I may have, I just don't recall.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, my understanding is that based on the timeline produced in the institutional report, that you and the mayor had a call with Solicitor General Sylvia Jones on February 9, and we talked a little bit about that. And my understanding was that the purpose of the call to ask Ontario to provide resources to the Ottawa Police Service. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
To provide OPP -- to facilitate OPP officers?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Is that right? Okay. And what was the response for that request?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I recall the Minister saying that this was something the Chief should be dealing with the OPP Commissioner on, and elected officials should not be getting involved in this.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in that call what's the issue about the truckers’ insurance and CVOR certificates also discussed?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think it was discussed in a general way about what other things the province could do to help police and the protest, or put pressure on the protesters. But again, I believe the Minister said that this was a law enforcement issue, and it should be dealt with by law enforcement.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So did the province offer any tangible assistance?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not with respect to insurance and CVOR. They declined to look at that. The Deputy Minister Laurie -- I forgot her last name, you had mentioned her in one of the meetings.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
And I know Laurie, my apologies to her, but she was the Deputy Minister.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
LeBlanc.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
LeBlanc, Laurie LeBlanc, I believe she's retired now, but she was the Deputy Minister of Ministry of Transportation, and she was on a call where that was specifically -- with the other Deputy Ministers, not this call, where that's question was specifically proposed to her, and she basically said that she'd have to go away and get back to us, but never did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So my understanding is that you also took part in what were called tripartite meetings, and these took place on February 7th, 8th, and 10th. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you participate in all three calls?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And my understanding is these were intended to be meetings of all three levels of government, municipal, provincial, and federal. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding is that generally, Minister Blair, Minister Mendicino, yourself, the mayor, Deputy Minister Rob Stewart, and some others joined those calls. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you know off -- do you recall who else would have been on those calls other than the people I mentioned?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
From the provincial level there were no elected officials, I seem to recall, they didn't attend. I think Mario Di Tommaso might have been on one or two of those calls. He was the Deputy Minister of the Solicitor General I believe.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
My understanding is that he was in the situational awareness calls, but not in the tripartite.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, that’s what I’m -- I thought he was in the tripartite, but I'm not sure. He may have been. But I don't think anyone else from the province was there. It was all federal and us.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know why -- my understanding is that Premier Ford was invited to participate in these meetings and declined. Is that your understanding as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I know he declined, but I don't know why.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so I'm going to take you to one of the readouts from that meeting, it is SSM.CAN.NSC ending in 2676. And so, this is a read out from one of those tripartite meetings, it looks to be the last one on February 10, and there we see people’s initials. BB is Bill Blair, my understanding; JW, Jim Watson; MM, Marco Mendicino. And if we go to the second page, it looks like your contributions are redacted, and on the second page Mayor Watson says, “We would like to get MTO more involved, put pressure on insurance companies --". Oh, sorry, just up. Yeah, there we are: “We would like to get MTO more involved, put pressure on insurance companies -- it was a disappointing answer from the province. Yet they are always setting up blitzes on the 400 series highways to check tires, etc.” So my understanding is that this is in relation to the call that took place the day before on February 9?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was this in relation to the ask about the commercial insurance that they had declined to get involved?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, and other possible regulations that governs heavy truckers or trucking companies. And I don't know if it was the meeting before, I don't have it in front of me, but it was at one of the meetings with the Deputy Ministers that we had federally and provincially, but it was just very close to that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in terms of other regulations, were these other regulations that the City was asking specifically, saying you know, this regulation, that, can you look into that? Or were you simply saying, can you look at what you have in your toolbox available to assist?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was exactly that. It was what you have that can help us in your toolbox under existing legislation and regulations? That was the specific request.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the answer was this is not -- this should not be dealt with at the political level?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, there were two answers. From the Deputy Minister it was, I'll get back to you. I think she felt kind of blindsided at that meeting because no one told her in advance as she was going to be asked, and I think it was asked by one of her federal colleagues, actually. Because I think the Deputy Minister of Transport for -- at the federal level, looked and they didn't have anything that could help us that was relevant, because it's all mostly provincially regulated. And the question was posed to Laurie LeBlanc and I think she was -- she seemed to be a little miffed that she got put on the spot and basically said, I’ll get back to you, I'll look into it, and never did. With Minister Jones, it came up in a general way, but that position she took as Solicitor General is this is Police Chief, to Commissioner, to Police Chief, and that's where this should be dealt with, not through us.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was it ever suggested to you that pulling truckers commercial insurance, or doing anything with respect to that would upset the trucking industry, or would upset the truckers themselves?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I didn’t. There was no further response in terms of specifics, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But -- and it was never said to you there's nothing more in our toolbox, we can't do anything? The answer was simply, we’ll get back to you, and they never did?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s what I’m aware of, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then if we go to page 3, if we go down to Bill Blair’s comment, so he says: “Thanks -- if we can speak frankly for a moment. It has come to the media’s discussion that they are not in this meeting for the third day -- statement from On[tario] is that this table will accomplish nothing” So is it fair to say that in the meeting there was frustration at Ontario's lack of attendance?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when Bill Blair says “this table” he means the tripartite meetings?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And to your understanding, this comment that's attributable to the Premier, that it will accomplish nothing, was that made in the group or was that made in the media? Do you know?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’m trying to find that on the page, counsel, I’m sorry, where is it?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Just -- Bill Blair at the top says, “Thanks -- if we can speak frankly for a moment”. He says, “It has come to the media's discussion that they are not in the meeting…” and I assume this is talking about Ontario, because then it says “statement from On[tario] is that this table will accomplish nothing.”
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't recall specifically what it was, but he was obviously reacting to something that was put out by the province.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
But I don't know what it is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so if we looked at the bottom at mayor Watson's comment, the third line he says: “I can say that I am disappointed that the province has not come to the table -- Premier is telling me, ‘anything you want’, but then there is silence.” Did you share the mayor's disappointment that Ontario was not at the table?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Did I share that? Not entirely. I mean, I think I was disappointed that they didn't participate, but they stated that their position was. But certainly OPP and Commissioner Carrique were very participatory and collaborative in terms of bringing resources. So there was never any issue from the policing sources, OPP it was probably the least amount of discussion about the resources they had committed early on. They were true to their word in terms of what they committed, from what I understand. So from my perspective, you know, OPP was doing what they were asked and we're being very helpful, but the other ministries were not participating, and I think that was you know, obviously a direction from their political masters.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what do you mean by that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I mean I think that Deputy Ministers won't engage unless it's clear from the Premier and others that they are able to engage, to participate, in terms of seeking out other alternatives and other tools for the toolbox.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So your understanding is that then the Premier would've told them not to look into that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s a speculation.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I just know that Deputy Ministers will not speak out of turn without being in alignment with their bosses.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. now, on page 4, Minister Mendicino, in the middle of the page, says -- just this -- towards the end: “To the extent that Sloly is laying out the plan to colleagues, the Province should be at this table. It is a useful forum to show leadership and coordination.” (As read) So do you agree that it would have been helpful to have Ontario at the table?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, back to page 2, where it says “RS”, and we’ll go down. That’s Rob Stewart? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And he says: “From what I understand, the plan of the Chief has not yet been completely fleshed out. That may affect the speed with which the RCMP can deploy resources.” (As read) What did you understand -- what was the discussion around this point?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well what that references is that the various commanders from OPP and RCMP, but he was speaking specifically to RCMP, didn’t feel the operational plan that was eventually enacted was ready for them to deploy the resources to participate in the plan. So there was an ongoing discussion, from what I understand from these meetings, about the readiness of the plan and the assessment of the plan by the commanders in the RCMP and the OPP reporting back through their chain of command.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And this was the last tripartite meeting on February 10. Do you know why they were discontinued?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I want to speak now about the deal that the City made with the protestors, the negotiations with the protestors.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I understand that on February 8, you received a call from then Deputy Chief Bell?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us a little bit about that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
You want to just hear that call? Or the ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about the call that you received. What was the discussion?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, I was on my way into work early that morning and I received a call from then Deputy Chief Bell, who said that he was sending over his Police Liaison Team, they want to meet with me, and they want to come over first thing in the morning to discuss opening up some line of communications with the protest leaders. I said, “Okay. What time are they coming?” And he said, “They’ll be there, you know, somewhere after 9:00.” I said, “Fine.” And that’s all he told me.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did he tell you why PLT was going to be coming over with protest leaders?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He didn’t give me any details. He just asked if I would meet them if they came to my office.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you didn’t ask what for?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No. I just said I’ll wait until they get here.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you tell anyone about that call before you met with them?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what happened then? Did they come to City Hall? How did that play out?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, the acronym is PLT, Police Liaison Team, and four officers came to my reception area in my office. The lead was Sgt. Lee (Phonetic). I don’t recall his first name. They came and basically advised me that communications had broken down with the protest leaders and that they weren’t communicating anymore with the PLTs. This was a significant issue in their ability to continue to try to negotiate on the ground in terms of the things they needed to do, and that they had asked to meet with someone from the City as a show of good faith, you know, I’m paraphrasing what he told me, my recollection of it, from someone from the City and they want to meet with me to be able to discuss the situation and what’s happening. And I had -- I was reluctant when he first told me. I was -- I would say reluctant to say why would I meet with him was -- we never had any intention, the Mayor, myself, the Mayor’s Office, anybody on my team had any intention of meeting with the protestors. That wasn’t on our radar or anything we were planning to do. But they were imploring me to meet with them because they needed to show that they could actually get me to the table to have a conversation with them. As a sign of good faith, ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did -- sorry, did they explain to you why -- did they say why they had lost the communication ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- with the protestors? What had happened there?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, they didn’t tell me, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And at that point, I wasn’t convinced that I should meet with them, because I felt that that was opening up another door in terms of a signal that we’re prepared to start negotiating. I told them that I need to call the Mayor. And we brought Serge Arpin, Chief of Staff, into the call. So I went into the next room, in my boardroom, called the Mayor, told him that they want me to meet with them and to have -- as a show of good faith, to -- police need us to meet with them. He was very reluctant. His initial reaction was we shouldn’t and thought that doing that was going to put pressure on the Federal Government in terms of, you know, if we meet with them, someone else would have to meet with them. And Serge Arpin was of kind of the same view. So we batted it around a bit and I basically advised the Mayor that I thought I should meet with them and hear what they have to say and maybe there’s something we can get in return, and “It won’t involve you, it will be me, it will be me doing the discussion, and you’re out of it. It’s not a political leadership meeting.” And so ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did the Mayor express any concerns about this?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He basically -- he didn’t tell me not to meet them, he didn’t tell me to meet them. He accepted that at the end, I said, “I’m going to meet them.” I basically made a statement that I’m going to meet them. So he didn’t say “don’t” and he didn’t say “do it”. But he was reluctant at the beginning. The first part of the conversation was he just thought it was a bad idea. And so I went back out and told him that I would meet with them, the protest organizers. I didn’t know who they were bringing. I didn’t know who the parties were. Well Lee said “Great.” They left and they ran over to one of the hotels where the participants were and they came back a couple of hours later, probably around noon, with three people: Tom Marazzo, Keith Wilson, and Eva Chipiuk, I believe is how we pronounce her last name.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know if I got that right. And they arrived with the four PLT members.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, this was around noon, you said?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was probably around noon, if I recall. It was several hours later, over to now 1:00 o’clock. Around that area, that time. And so they came in and we had another boardroom down the hallway in City Hall at the Heritage Building. And Tom Marazzo asked if he could speak to me alone, and we went into the boardroom alone and everyone else waited outside, the four police officers and the two lawyers, Keith and Eva. And Tom and I began having conversation about why they’re here, his background, what happened to him, his story. Just getting to know each other, basically. And so he explained why he was here, what the issues were, what happened to him in terms of the vaccine mandate, et cetera. And then we talked about -- we talked about, from my recollection, that, look, you know, if you’re -- they wanted a meeting with the Mayor. And I basically advised them that if they were going to have a meeting with the Mayor, they have to show something in good faith back. And that was the discussion when the PLTs first came to see me, when I came back out from seeing the Mayor, I forgot to mention that, is I said, “Well if I want to meet with them, I need to get something back in return. I’m not going to meet with them just for the sake of meeting with them.” And the police officer suggested, “Well, maybe we can start getting them -- ask them to move the trucks out of some of the neighbourhoods.” I said, “Well that would be a good thing, to try to relieve the pressure on those people in those neighbourhoods if they would agree to do that.”
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So OPS was the one who made the suggestion that maybe the exchange for meeting with the Mayor would be getting the trucks out of the neighbourhoods?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
So when we were talking to Tom, and I don’t remember if it was exactly with Tom or when everyone else came in, when Keith and Eva came in after, ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, when Keith and Eva came in after, did the PLT officers also join? Or was it just - --
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They came in also.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah. So they all joined the meeting at that time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then we had a discussion about the protest and would they be willing to move trucks out of the neighbourhoods. They said yes, they’d be willing to do that. And we said well then we have to work out the logistics, and they’ll get back to us. So we met for about, in total, about an hour and a half, I’d say. Maybe 90 minutes. They left with the understanding that we would reconnect and talk about what the terms would be of them moving the trucks and the conditions under which that would happen, and get an agreement to do that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What was your understanding for why the protestors wanted to meet with the Mayor?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well they didn’t tell me specifically, but I assume that it was a symbolic significant gesture that somebody -- nobody was meeting with them of any official capacity at the political level. And I would think that, you know, you’d have to ask them when they testify, but I assumed the Mayor was a first step in trying to open the door to meet with the Prime Minister or someone senior at the Federal Government.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so at the end of the meeting, what was decided, who would do what, what were the next steps that were going to be taken after that meeting?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We -- I think we exchanged the numbers, and then we said that we'd get back. I don't recall exactly, that we'd reconnect with each other, and start talking about that. Then, you know, a number of things happened after that in terms of updating the mayor and Serge later in the day, and updating Chief Sloly. Those are all other aspects ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- I'm sure you'll get to.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, my understanding is that the next day you did indicate to Chief Sloly and Deputy Chief Ferguson, Deputy Chief Bell that this had taken place, and relayed a little bit of the information that had been exchanged; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did. I told the outcome of the meeting with the PLTs and with the protestors ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- protest leaders.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did they express any concerns about that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, there were a couple of points. I mean, it depends where we are in the story here. We hadn't at that point figured out the logistics of -- or the terms of what the agreement would be. That happened later in the week and didn't get finalised until Sunday, the 13th, I believe. So at that point, it was more an indication of what the -- I gave an overview of -- to Chief Sloly and his team on what the discussion was, what they had asked for, and what we were going to pursue in terms of -- or what we were going to start pursuing in terms of trying to get an agreement to move trucks out of the neighbourhood.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So at that point, the deal was if you move trucks out of the neighbourhood we'll have a meeting with -- we'll facilitate a meeting with the Mayor. So it was kind of high-level.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was the concept, that's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, that was the... So no details had been fleshed out at that point?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
None.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you exchange numbers, you brief the Mayor about what had happened, and then what happened?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, about two days later, and I think it was on the 10th, we -- the Mayor received a call or a text, I'm not sure, I never clarified that, but he was put in contact or he was contacted by Dean French, and Dean French told the Mayor that, you know, the Mayor can speak for himself, but my understanding was that he was trying to help and that he was trying to help to get a resolution to this agreement that we had. And the Mayor passed on Dean French to Serge Arpin, and I believe they had a conversation, I don't know exactly what they talked about, and then Serge Arpin gave Dean French my number, and he contacted me and basically announced himself as a helpful third party that was going to try to mediate between the two to try and come up with an agreement.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So then you became the point person for that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I became -- I became the point person to get to the place where the logistics were agreed to, but the actual negotiation of the terms of the letter that was eventually sent to Ms. Lich and that she replied back agreeing to was done mostly through Serge Arpin and the Mayor's Office.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was engaged in that, but the negotiations were happening between them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So between February 8th, when you have the meeting with the PLT members and Tom Marazzo et al., and then the 10th of February when the call from Dean French comes in, was there any kind of movement on that deal between the 8th and the 10th?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, the -- it really didn't start moving until -- the 10th was -- I'm trying to think of the date. What date was that? The 8th was Monday, the 10th was a ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, I know the 13th was a Sunday.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, so the 10th was what, Wednesday?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It would be a Thursday.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Thursday.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
You know, that's something for Mr. Arpin to answer in terms of what discussions were taking place at that point, but things didn't really start taking shape until later in the week, early weekend, and it wasn't until probably Sunday morning, the 13th, that I saw a draft in terms of the terms that's in that letter that was made public.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you weren't involved in the drafting of the letters?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was involved in providing some advice on the drafting of the letters based on my discussions with police. So Serge checked with me in terms of, you know, where the trucks would go and some of the other information on the -- in the letter, but ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So specifically, the letter talks ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- I wasn't ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. Specifically, the letter talks about Wellington Street. Was that one of the points of discussion with OPS?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was generally, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So then, if I understand correctly what you're saying, on the 10th, Dean French called and announced himself as potentially being helpful or a potential mediator, and then the letters were drafted and sent I believe on the 12th of February, and in that time you were having discussions with Chief Sloly, was it Chief Sloly, or anybody else within OPS? Deputy Chief Ferguson?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, it was -- there were a couple of calls. The one call, the final call was before the letters went out on -- at -- it was over noon hour on the Sunday, the 13th. It was right to wire in terms of when the letters finally were approved.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so they're dated the 12th, but you're saying they were exchanged on the 13th?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's what I believe, but I could be corrected.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so while they're being finalised, your involvement is putting -- getting some input from OPS and suggesting some wording to the letter, including the area where the trucks are going to relocate to ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah. Serge had various drafts, he was going back and forth, I don't remember the drafts, but, you know, different language, and we were -- I was providing some edits and some advice on the final language in the letter.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why was Wellington Street chosen? Who chose Wellington Street?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, that came up as part of the discussion, initially I believe with the protestors, where -- the protestors leaders, my apologies, the leadership, where there was no other place to put the trucks. There were very few options in terms of where to put the trucks. And the discussion was that we wanted to reduce the footprint in the area to get them out of the neighbourhoods and have them more condensed in one more manageable enforcement area. And so Wellington Street was an option, but it was understood that Wellington couldn't accommodate all the trucks from the neighbourhood as there just wasn't enough room. So part of the discussion was with some of them agreed to move to a site, I believe it was in the West End, Amprior or some other site they had, if they could go there. They wanted to get them on to SJAM, we didn't want them on SJAM, so there was discussion internally about the parameters of where they might go. And that's what translated into the logistical meeting that we finally had on Sunday night, the 13th, when Superintendent Drummond and myself and Kim Ayotte met with a group of representatives.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So before we get to that meeting, before the letters were finalised I understand that Chief Sloly had a chance to look at those letters; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He received a -- I'm trying to think if he received a draft or not because he sent me an email asking for a -- asking me for a -- an edit, but it was too late because the letter was finalised.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And actually, that's OTT6985, so I'll take you to that. OTT6985. So he says, "Thank you, Steve," but if we go down to the bottom we can see: "'Steve, as suggestion, alter this line in the Mayor's letter: "As the departure of the over 400 trucks from residential areas is a significant logistical undertaking that will probably take 24 to 72 hours, we ask that protesters stop asking more demonstrators to come to Ottawa this week and over the long weekend..."'" So it looks like that highlighted portion of "this week and over the long weekend" was an edit that he wanted in that letter; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if we go up. You say: "'Hi Chief. The letter from the mayor has already been signed and sent to Convoy leadership. It just hasn't been made public. So can't make edits now but can discuss when we meet them.'"
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, we ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then he ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, we sent him the -- a version of the letter they obviously had, and he wanted to make an edit, but at that point it was too late.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if we go to OPS10664. We go -- there we go. It looks to be from Christiane Huneault, and she says: "'Steve – Can you send me a copy of the letters we just discussed on our call re demo convoy negotiations. Thanks.'" And who did you understand her to be?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Who was she?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, Christiane Huneault.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, she's the general counsel to the Police Service and reports to Chief Sloly.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And she mentions a phone call that you had with her about the letters.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think she was on the call, the noon hour call. It wasn't a phone call specifically with her. I think she participated in the noon call with Chief Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell at the time, Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, myself. I think Kim Ayotte was on the call also. So we had a call at noon hour, and she's -- my understanding from this is Christiane Huneault is following up on that phone call.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I see, and this would be on February 13th at noon there was a call?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
On the Sunday, that's right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
On the Sunday? Okay. And if I can take you to OTT6990? It looks like on Sunday at 1:44 you send those letters to Chief Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, Deputy Chief Ferguson, Christiane Huneault and John Steinbachs.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if I can take you to OTT7009? Looks like title is Police Contact, Sunday the 13th at 3:26. You say to Chief Sloly, "Chief, can you please provide the name and contact info of who will be joining Kim Ayotte in the negotiations with the Protest[...] leaders to deal with the egres [and]..." I believe that should be "and"; right? Relocation plan?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what is that about?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, when the letters were sent, we agreed that we would meet that evening because we wanted to get this going as fast as possible, and that they would send a representative group to City Hall to meet with myself, Kim Ayotte and a senior police official to deal with the logistics, because Kim and I were in no position, as I said earlier in my testimony, to arbitrarily dictate where trucks would move or to be able to manage the relocation logistically. We needed police to be able to do that, to facilitate that and negotiate that and ensure that the relocation plan was consistent with any future plans they had or any safety issues, officer safety issues, et cetera. And so what I was asking Chief Sloly, and I believe it was the subject also on the call, that we needed someone senior to be part of the discussions on the logistics for the actual relocation of the trucks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who was provided?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Acting Superintendent Rob Drummond.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what did you understand his role to be then, just to -- was he going to be partly negotiating what was going to happen?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, he wasn't negotiate -- there wasn't going to be -- well, I suppose it could be characterized somewhere as a negotiation, but Acting Superintendent Drummond's role was to work out the operational details right down to where, when, who, logistics. Like, he was leading that on our behalf when the group came to see us in the mayor's boardroom on Sunday night. And so he had the map out and they were mapping out how it would work, who the contact people would be on the police side, who the contact people would be on the protester's side. So he was basically laying out how that operation would unfold the next morning.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But by then, the idea that they would be relocating to Wellington had already been determined ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- right? Okay. And in your call earlier that morning, or at the noon call, did anybody on the call, Steve Bell, Trish Ferguson, Peter Sloly, did anybody raise any concerns with the arrangement that had been reached?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, Chief Sloly raised concerns about the resource requirements to be able to enact this kind of operation, depending on the scope. He was concerned about his ability to do that, and he was concerned about, you know, the -- what happens if we go through all this effort, it's not successful, we're back to square one, and we put a lot of resources into it. So he expressed that concern. The two deputy chiefs, the acting and the -- Chief Bell and Acting Deputy Chief -- Deputy Chief Bell and Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson both expressed that they supported this because it would reduce the footprint and make it more manageable for their resources because they were spread too thin covering that large a geography. And so they expressed support for the movement of the trucks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so despite Chief Sloly's reservations, did he ultimately agree that this should move forward?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't recall that he actually said he agreed, but he didn't object to the point where -- because he could have, obviously, stopped it but he didn't. But he didn't -- I never heard him say we're a go. He was basically silent on that point.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, but he did provide you Superintendent Drummond as a ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- OPS representative?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so now we're at this meeting February 13th. You said it was you, Mr. Ayotte and who else was there?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't remember but his name -- it was on the list. Superintendent Drummond was there. I think -- trying to remember, Keith -- Keith Wilson was there - - no, Eva was there, Keith Wilson was there I believe but maybe not. I'd have to go back -- you'd have to go back to show me the document. I don't remember the other people's names. Tom Barber was there, I know that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Chris Barber?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Chris Barber, sorry, was there.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Was Tom Marazzo there?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't remember him.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How many protest individuals would you say were there? How many protesters were there?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think there was six of them all together.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't know if Keith Wilson was there. I just -- if I saw it in front of me, I saw the document in terms of the notes that Acting Superintendent Drummond took, but I don't remember.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, I don't know if they're available. They weren't available yesterday, but I'm not sure if they're available now. But in any event, there were a group of protest leaders that were there, you, yourself, Mr. Ayotte. And we don't have a lot of time, so if you can just briefly maybe tell us what happened at that meeting and then we will have to get my friends to pick it up from there.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Effectively, we, you know, we discussed how it could unfold, the -- what the expectations were, what we all wanted. The people that represented the protesters were clear that they don't represent all the protesters, so they're going to have some trouble getting everybody convinced based on who was on the streets to all participate and move. And that they would be going out that night and working truck by truck, talking to everybody to get them in line -- or on line to support the movement because it was a good thing for them. And they also made it clear that not everybody will want -- some people may not want to go to that other alternate site, the farmer's area they rented. I think it was in Arnprior, but I don't remember. And that they wanted to extend the footprint of it more down to Deschamps, but we said no. And Rob Drummond was effectively leading those discussions in terms of where the trucks would go, how they'd be placed, and as I said, how that process would work in the morning, who'd be assigned out there from Ottawa Police. And so when we left the meeting, it was understood, we had a map of where the trucks would be moved, what areas we wanted to clear out, and Rob went back then to talk to his command and the NRCC and incident commanders to bring the resources required to be able to do that. And we left that night after a couple hours and the operation started the next morning.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand at some point the operations stopped. Do you know why it stopped?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, mid morning it stopped because -- and there was some exchanges I think I had. I don't know if it was a phone call or text with -- I was mostly communicating with Keith Wilson at the time, where he was expressing that what he was being told on the ground is that there was miscommunication between some of the police officers and what the orders were and -- or they -- the operation was and weren't allowing some trucks to move onto Wellington. Eventually, that got sorted out and they did move a number of heavy trucks. I think the count was around 40, but that's still in dispute. And a number of light trucks also left, and we ended up clearing a number of streets. But, yeah, there was some communications issues, some logistical issues where some of them, my understanding was some of the light vehicles didn't want to move and were blocking other vehicles from moving, so there was -- there wasn't an alignment of purpose by everybody that was in -- on all those streets. They had different reasons for wanting to stay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I'm just going to take you to the last document, OTT7480. And this is an email. If we go down -- yeah, no, sorry. This is 7480. Yeah, that does look right. Okay. Let's go up for a second. Yes. So Larry Brookson, do you know who he is?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who is he?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He's the -- I believe his position is he's the director of the parliamentary precinct security, but I've known Larry -- I know Larry personally.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, okay. Yes, because the email is quite informal, so I figured you must have had some pre-existing relationship with him.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
He says, "Hi, Steve. My office is looking to setup a call [this] morning. Wanted to provide you with some context of my concern regarding the City of Ottawa's recent decision which lead to Wellington being turned into a parking lot of 200 plus trucks. Quite honestly Steve I am at a loss as [...] how this sort of agreement could have been worked out with a clear disregard to security, especially considering that we just finished a bomb blast assessment which included the threat of explosive[s] being transferred via large vehicles. Hoping we can find time in the morning.” So is it your understanding that PPSC -- sorry, that PPS, the Parliamentary Protective Service, did not have notice or information about what was going to be happening with the relocation of the trucks onto Wellington?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well I’m not going to speculate on that, but I do know that the PPS was embedded in the National Capital Regional Command Centre. They are a member of Intersect. I know that Mr. Brookson had spoke to Chief Sloly the late afternoon the day before when the trucks were being moved. So, you know, I think it’s a fair assumption for me to make that Mr. Brookson was well informed in terms of what was happening on the ground from a situational awareness perspective and, you know, the bomb blast assessment, quite frankly, I’m not disregarding it, but it was a little late then. We already had hundreds of trucks up on Wellington Street to be concerned about moving another 40 trucks up there. So I -- you know, he -- that’s his role, to take care of the security of the Hill. And it’s an important role and I respect that. But at the time, I felt that Mr. Brookson, when he reached out to me, had the information, especially after he spoke to Chief Sloly. And I spoke to Chief Sloly after he had spoken to Mr. Brookson, and Chief Sloly advise me what the conversation was about, where he informed him what was happening. So I know there was some reporting, but I didn’t call him back. The events kind of overtook things on the 15th. Chief Sloly was in the late stages of his tenure and the deal had fallen apart in terms of moving the trucks anyways, up onto Wellington Street by Tuesday.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so -- and did you tell anybody at the federal level, yourself, about this deal? I know February 8 is when you kind of had that discussion. And it also coincided with the tripartite meeting. Is that something you would have brought up at a tripartite meeting?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I told -- I’m not sure when, but I know I told Rob Stewart, the Minister of Public Safety, and I also sent Rob Stewart the letters that were agreed to -- the agreement letters.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so ultimately the Mayor never met with the protestors? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They never fulfilled their end of the bargain, so he never met with them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And those are all my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we went a little bit over, which I regret. And the -- but we’ll take the morning break at the moment, and we can start with the cross-examinations right after the 15-minute break. And I will show a little latitude in cross- examination, given the excess of -- in the direct, which is pursuant to our rule when in-chief, where the evidence presented by the Commission will be matched in terms of cross-examination time. So 15-minute break. We’ll be back at five minutes to 12:00. Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:55 a.m.
STEVE KANELLAKOS, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome to the second phase of the evidence, which is the questioning by the various parties. So if I could call on the Convoy Organizers to go first? Okay. So there’s some technical issues with the document production? Okay. Okay. Well can the Ottawa Police Service then go ahead?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is David Migicovsky and I act for the Ottawa Police Service. Mr. Kanellakos, I understand that David White, in his email to you, and I can pull up the email if it will assist you, but in the interest of trying to shorten my questions, I wont, but if you do need it, please let me know. My understanding is that he said to you on January 30th that obtaining an injunction to shut down a protest was an extraordinary thing given the Charter of Rights. Do you recall that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And what Mr. White told you at that time was that OPS’ concerns were, and this is the first weekend, correct, were the noise, the traffic impact, and the public frustration and pollution; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But from his perspective, there weren’t any public safety concerns or violence?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And Mr. White also told you there was an issue as well from his perspective about the potential that enforcing the injunction could give rise to violence as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I seem -- without having the document in front of me, I seem to recall that, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And that same day I understand you then spoke to Chief Sloly and he indicated that OPS would support the City in providing the injunction, but you made it clear it would be up to the City to decide whether to seek it? Would have the final say?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you ultimately did instruct Mr. White to proceed with that injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
The names Omar Ansari, Mary Simms, and Stuart Huxley, those are individuals who work in the City’s legal department?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And they report to David White?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And my understanding is, and perhaps if you need the document, I can show it to you as well, my understanding is that Mr. White was informed that the OPS said they could provide evidence of the vehicles and the registered owners? I’ll pull up the document, if that would assist.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It would, thank you.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If I may please have OTT29695? Sorry, I wonder if we could scroll down? I may not have said the correct document.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s over there, they’re scrolling, I think.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thanks. Never mind, I’ll proceed without the document. Ultimately the City was the one, I understand, who made the final decision about an injunction on February 11th and then proceeded on the 14th? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And there were cooperation with the Ottawa Police in working with the City on that injunction; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I believe so, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, I believe that from the Ottawa Police, you obtained -- the City obtained some language with respect to what the enforcement clause of the injunction should look like?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know that personally. That’d be better posed to Mr. White.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you speak just a little louder, please?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, Mr. Commissioner. It was working fine before. I’ll just put it a little…
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sorry, what was that answer? I had a hard time hearing.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I said I wasn’t -- I’m not aware of that personally. That would be better posed to Mr. White.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And although there hadn’t been written responses to the questions that Mr. White had posed, there had been verbal discussions between the party’s legal ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- staff? And from time to time, I take it, you were kept apprised of some discussions between the OPS and its policing partners, such as the OPP and RCMP?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Could you elaborate better in terms of what aspects?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. Were you made aware that the OPP and the RCMP, various officials there, had expressed serious reservations about the police getting involved in injunctions?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not at the time.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Did you subsequently learn that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, in preparation for this hearing.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you then understood that the Commissioner of the RCMP and the Commissioner of the OPP both had some concerns about injunctions in the context of these type of protests?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I think you told us Ottawa has lots of protests and demonstrations; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Many.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And it’s a fact of life. And again I can turn to the document if you need it, but there’s a series of text message exchanges you have with Mr. Ayotte in which you’re discussing an article -- this was on January 30th -- that someone sent you talking about the sentiment of the citizens in Ottawa as of January 30th. And your response to Mr. Ayotte with respect to the article that had been sent to you is that it’s a bit naïve for somebody to believe that the police and the City should have just prevented the protest from happening. Do you remember that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And we’ll be hearing that some of the convoy that came from out west, and I guess was the first group to leave, were annoyed by the fact that by the time they got to Ottawa, all of the prime spots on Wellington were taken up by others and that they were too far away with their trucks. Do you recall that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I don’t have knowledge of that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I understand that on Friday, January 28th is when the convoys started to arrive in Ottawa.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the major impacts at that time were on Wellington and the Sir John A. MacDonald Parkway.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Initially, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I understand we will be hearing that the spaces filled up very quickly. Is that your understanding as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do know that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And once they filled up very quickly, it would not, I believe, was your perspective, be a viable solution on its own of ending the protest by simply towing vehicles; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did not share that view.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I shared that view; sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right, thanks. And on January 30th -- and again I can turn up the document but in the interests of time I won’t unless you need it, so please do let me know if you need it. On January 30th, there’s an exchange that you have with Councillor Menard, and he asks about the option of having the vehicles ticketed and towed. And then Mr. Ayotte forwards it to you and expresses concerns about that approach, and I think your response is you agreed, and you said: “...where would we put the vehicles that are towed??” Do you recall that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And on February 6th, 2022, I understand you have an exchange of texts with Kim Ayotte about towing the vehicles, and Mr. Ayotte points out to you that with 500 vehicles in the core, towing obviously isn’t an answer, and you agree that towing these big rigs will not solve the problem. And if I could ask, as well, if we could please turn up Documents OTT01239, and if we -- that is 01239? I’ll find the document if you need it; I’m just going to refresh your memory, but perhaps you’ll agree with me, I think what -- the point you make in a series of exchanges in which you’re discussing Councillor Fleury’s request is: “No way can you tactically tow a heavy truck in this scenario, the way they are parked nose to tail, and it would require a huge amount of police resources.” (As read) You agree with that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And a few days later I understand the City made an agreement or an agreement was made with the Mayor which in fact resulted in some additional trucks moving on to Wellington; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We did, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
With respect to the City’s authority with respect to streets, I understand that the City gets its powers from various statutes; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, and internal bylaws. We have delegated authority bylaw; we have traffic and parking control bylaw that we can use to close streets.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you agreed, as I understood your evidence this morning, and I believe in your institutional report you’ve agreed that the City independently does have the authority to close down roads and highways; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The City does, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And they have that authority both under bylaws as well as under statutory authority; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I understand, though, that you work cooperatively with police when you do exercise that authority.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Always.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, since the Freedom Convoy, the City has exercised its delegated authority to close down roads; for instance, for Rolling Thunder?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, in collaboration with police.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And for Canada Day as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so in effect, since the protest the parties have, in effect, created exclusion zones, is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact if we could turn up Document OTT26171? If we could scroll down, please? I think that’s the bottom. So you’ll see Councillor Leiper is proposing a motion; I don’t know if you recall that.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the motion being put forward by Councillor Leiper is for the General Manager of Public Works to work with City Councillors to close some roads, to diminish the volume of vehicles able to access the downtown core. Do you recall that motion?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that was, I guess, his concern was the weekend coming up of February 19th and 20th. And Mr. Gonthier, you’ll see if you scroll up, then shares that with Kim Ayotte, and says that the City does have -- the last sentence: “While we have the delegated authority to close roads, I would suggest in this case we would only proceed to do so if supported by OPS.” And you agree that that’s an accurate -- that’s an accurate statement?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, that’s -- well, at that stage, based on what was happening in the City, we wouldn’t be closing roads, without the support of OPS, unilaterally.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you. One of the -- I’m just moving on to talk about the issue of ticketing. And one of the concerns expressed by Councillors was the present of trucks built or parked on the Queen Elizabeth Drive and the request by some councillors to have them ticketed as of January 30th.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Do you recall that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you’ve expressed the view that you did not see what ticketing would accomplish in that scenario, is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, would you like me to expand, or just say “Yes” or “No”?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure, feel free.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
You know, ticketing, it’s like everything else; you can give someone a ticket and if they don’t care they got the ticket and they’re willing to pay, no action necessarily results from the ticket. It’s like your car parked on the market and you get a ticket, your car still stays parked there with a ticket on the windshield. So without some kind of enforcement action to move it, the truck basically stays there. People might feel better that we ticketed the car or the truck, but the truck’s not moving unless we actually tow it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Correct. And I guess you would -- and I can call up the document. It’s OTT29632. And while they do that, I understand that this is a series of text messages between you and Mr. Ayotte? And if we could turn, please, to page 11 of the document. And if you look at 10:08:32, then you can read up above just to give yourself a context. But one of the concerns that Mr. Ayotte expressed about this is ticketing will also anger the demonstrators.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, that was a concern for sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, there had been experiences, in fact, we see in the next line below a situation in which demonstrators got aggressive in another scenario; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so that was always a concern throughout the protests that any reaction that the City or the police take may create a very volatile situation?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was the police assessment, which we shared.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the demonstration, from your experience working with the City, was a volatile situation?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Potentially, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And enraging protestors, you shared the police concern that that could be counterproductive?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, Deputy Chief Ferguson communicated with Mr. Ayotte about this situation about leaving the vehicles on the Queen Elizabeth driveway for now, and said that the police had decided to leave them for now, and you agreed with her, as did Mr. Ayotte; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I believe at 11:37:47, in that same email chain, you indicate -- 11:37:20: "Steve Kanellakos: 'Sloly got back to Mayor. Mayor agrees that it's not worth inciting the crowd so he's good and supports police decision.'"
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If we could please go to document... Or, again, I won't turn it up because we did see it this morning, but if you need it let me know. On January 25th, I understand that some information was forwarded from the Ottawa Hotel Association. And actually, I will turn up the document, just because there's something attached in the chain. So if we could please have 0070?
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, can you provide the complete document ID number?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It's OTT, it'll be six zeroes, 70. So if you just scroll down to the bottom. That -- if you can then just keep going up, and then go up. It says, "Hi Sam" -- this from Beth. Beth Gooding is the Director of Public Safety for the City?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And she's writing to Sergeant Eustace Roberts at the police, and she indicates: "'Hi Sam, We don't know if this is valid or some kind of attempt to purposefully distract but.... Sharing an exchange that was sent to the Mayor's office. Obviously, please treat as confidential.'" And then, that was what you were talking about the information from the Ottawa Hotel Association?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And then, if you could please turn up OTT0392. And I -- while that's being turned up, I -- if I told you that the police did subsequently speak to the Hotel Association, you wouldn't have any reason to disagree with me, would you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I have no personal knowledge of that, but I wouldn't -- I have no reason to disagree.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And this is on January 26th, so this is just before the protestors came. You'll see, if you look at your email at the bottom at 9:28, 9:30, one of the things you told the councillors is that although planning -- I'm in the second line: "'...has been very difficult because the leadership of the protesters are poorly organized [and you] need their cooperation...[and you have to work] through a number of scenarios. More information will be released as it gets firmed up.'" And that was a problem, was that the information was changing frequently; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I said that earlier in my testimony.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the City and police, you said to me, have worked well together, and you would agree with me that on several occasions during this event you expressed the view that they were indeed working together well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I understand -- if I might just ask you a question with respect to the baseball stadium. I understand -- you talked about the parking there. I understand at one point the Mayor wanted to know if the City had allowed the parking, and you -- at the stadium, and you asked Mr. Ayotte, and he confirmed that the City had in fact agreed to it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We did, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And with respect to, if I might just ask you a couple of questions with respect to the agreement with the protestors. I understand that the results of the PLTs letting you know that the protestors wanted to meet on February 8th, that you in fact met and I think you said you met with Tom Marazzo, Eva Chipuik and Keith Wilson that day?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And my understanding, but I may be incorrect, is that the PLTs were not present during the meeting, they brought them to the meeting, however.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, that's incorrect. They -- the meeting started with me and Tom Marazzo, and then we were joined by everybody else. The PLTs were actually in the room, and even at one point they asked me to leave so that they could continue the discussions with the people that were in the room, and I refused to leave.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so the initial part of the meeting was you and Tom Marazzo.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And I understand that meeting was about an hour-and-a-half; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
In total.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. There are no notes of that meeting or ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I didn't take any notes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- emails exchanged about what was agreed to in that meeting?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No. Not that I have. Other parties may have.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the meeting to deal with the logistics was on the 13th, I believe?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That evening, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that was I think at 5:30; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that was just -- that was after the letters had already been signed by the Mayor and Ms. Lich?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And then the actual move of the vehicle -- of the trucks then started on the 14th; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That morning, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And there were about 40 heavy trucks that ended up being moved as a result of that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah. That number varies, but that's our estimate, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And on the 15th, you learned that the police on the ground were not going to continue assisting other trucks in going to Wellington, but would only be letting them move if it was to leave completely; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, Rob Drummond, you understand, Superintendent Drummond had some exchanges with Kim Ayotte, and he was pretty definitive at that point on the 15th that the OPS was not going to move anymore trucks on Wellington; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And although he told you that, I believe you were still hoping to try to get things to continue?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I wanted to do everything I could to relieve those neighbourhoods of the pain they were going through.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much, Mr. Kanellakos. Thank you for the questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Who's up next? Are -- is the convoy organizers, are you still -- okay. Still organizing. The organizers are organizing. Okay. Mr. Sloly -- Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Mr. Kanellakos, I’m Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly. Good morning to you. You have a long experience, not just here as the City’s most senior public official, but also previously in police services, as I understand it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Taking the entirety of your experience, this event that the Commissioner is here to understand is completely without precedent? Is that true?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’ve never seen anything like it in my 37 years.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I don’t reckon you’ve got a number for us, but you have seen, in your capacity, either as a senior official in the former Ottawa Carleton Police Service and others, or as City Manager, it’s no exaggeration to say you have been through many hundreds of events and protests in the Nation’s capital?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’ve lost track. That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I’d be right? Many hundreds?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And there is a significant difference between protests, in your experience, between protest and event? One of my colleagues asked you, I think, about a parade. A big difference; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Significant. Canada Day is not normally associated with protest? It’s an event and celebration?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It’s not characterized that way. Absolutely.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And so what was -- when we -- when the Commissioner considers your experience in dealing with the kinds of things you have seen in Ottawa here, or the kinds of things that you observe your colleagues in the Ottawa Police Service dealing with, what was coming to Ottawa through the Freedom Convoy was something that no one expected? Is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s fair.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And it’s one thing to -- one of the documents that you just reviewed with one of my friends made the point about the challenge of trying to understand what the convoy organizers had in their own minds as to their intentions, and you were never able to get that information? Is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
As I said earlier, the information leading up to the actual event was -- it was a typical situation where it was changing on a regular basis every day.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. This wasn’t the Santa Clause Parade, ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- where someone would ask for a permit, you would understand and make plans and organize crowds? Now, you were also -- and I think you told Commission Counsel, the City has learned to become very -- through its experience, very respectful of the right to protest?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You are here in the City of our Parliament and Parliament has -- of course in Canada, we respect the right to protest, and you do here in Ottawa?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And these were -- I think your colleague, Mr. Ayotte, described in an email that appeared briefly, I won’t go back to it, that he felt that police were doing a very good job in balancing, on the one hand, the right to protest, and on the other, the risk of riot?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, that comment was made in reference to the initial weekend, but yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And when I -- I want to - - I just want to ask you about that, if I could, but before I pull up a document, could I just ask you about your relationship with Chief Sloly? You had a good working relationship with him; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I did.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Were you part of his recruitment?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Did you meet him in that process?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I met him after he was announced, but before he actually was sworn in.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. And you learned through that discussion, I assume, about his long experience as a national police leader?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And including significant experience in managing public order disruptions and protests?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well I certainly knew his resume, but he never discussed that directly with me.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Fair enough. And during the time that you worked with him in your capacity as City Manager and his leading the police service, you agree with me that he acted in good faith and tried to the best of his ability to solve this problem?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, a couple of things, if I can. Can I please ask for a document to be shown to the witness? Is OPS00005187. It should be, if I’ve got the number right, Mr. Kanellakos, -- and everyone on earth calls you, expect us today, calls you Steve K?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Correct. And feel free to do so.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I won’t today. But this is a document dated January 31st, 2022. And it is notes of a meeting that concern a number of officials, one of whom present was you. Do you recall this meeting?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I do.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Could we please just scroll down for a moment? There was an update -- just maybe just to there. This is an update from Chief Sloly. I won’t read it all, but there was a thorough update from the Chief to the group including you and the Mayor; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then one of the things that - - just look about maybe two thirds of the way down. Do you see the bullet point that begins with: “100% of resources tied up with demo[nstration] downtown…”
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
“…members are stretched and tired before and are more now, same with [the] citizens and businesses and with demonstrators. Patience is low and everyone is looking for confrontation.” That was your not just -- you heard the Chief make that report, but that was also your own observation? Is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in the -- from the beginning, you -- once you understood, and everyone understood, that this was not a protest of the kind you had seen before, but rather, an occupation, I think you told us that there were never enough resources in the Ottawa Police Service to bring this occupation to a successful completion? Is that true?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s my opinion, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And indeed, you have said previously, I believe, that you needed support, always needed support from other police agencies and police services; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, and just one of the questions that I know came up -- I’ll just deal with this very quickly, Bylaw Services. Bylaw Services comes under Kim Ayotte, not the Ottawa Police Service, you told us. Am I correct that there was never going to be any effective solution through Bylaw Services once you saw what you were dealing with here?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think we have 132 Bylaw officers for the entire city. I don’t think they could have ended this protest.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And they don’t get paid, do they, to engage in fist fights with people with whom they’re trying to enforce bylaws, or rolling around in physical confrontations; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They get trained in conflict resolution and other skills, but they’re not -- they don’t have the training a police officer does ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- or the equipment.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Every Bylaw officer who was going to go into this area of high conflict was going to have to go in with police escorts; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was my assessment and my team’s assessment.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Because there were too few resources, it was not a viable option to rely on Bylaw Services, in your opinion?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now a couple of other things, if I can. There was -- just talking about resources. Am I right that there was some confusion at the level of the province of Ontario as to how many OPP officers had been made available to the Ottawa Police Service? Do you recall that occurring?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was less OPP, it was more RCMP.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Do you recall, though, Minister Jones, ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- Sylvia Jones, making a statement that there were, I believe, 1,500 OPP officers deployed here?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was inaccurate.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
It was inaccurate and indeed there were -- it was a small fraction of 1,500 at that time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It seemed to be accumulative running total of a whole bunch of days. We couldn’t figure out where the number came from.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. But at that time, the time the Minister made the comment, forget who made the calculation error, it was never accurate; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was not accurate.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Do you recall though that it did create some challenges for the OPS because while that information was in circulation, people felt that, “Well, you’ve got these resources. What are you doing?”
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Exactly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And do you agree that that was -- there were never those resources at that time available to the Ottawa Police Service?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not to my knowledge, no.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. One or two quick things, if I may, please, Mr. Kanellakos. You, -- the Commissioner is concerned, among other things, to consider recommendations, how to avoid events of this kind in the future, if that is a view that anyone takes. You had an experience with something -- well let me go back one square. Chief Sloly has described this event as a paradigm shift, a change in the way public protest had previously been understood here. You agree with that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you referred yourself to one previous episode here in Ottawa that had occurred that involved something I believe called a snake march or snake marches?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And as a consequence of the appearance of that, and I won't take the time to have you explain what that is, but when that occurred, you and the -- as a city manager, learned from that experience and took some steps to address that; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, the concept there is -- that's correct. The concept there is that protests, strategies and tactics evolve over time, and police tactics sometimes are a step behind, and they have to evolve to catch up with the tactics that protesters are using, and that's what this event was. The tactics and strategies of police had to evolve immediately after we experienced these ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- the trucker convoy.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. Did you ever -- can you assist the Commissioner, how many trucks were actually embedded in the geographic areas that you have described?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, it varied. I mean, the one count when I think it was the second week Ottawa Police went and did a physical count and it was somewhere close to 500 trucks.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now one or two then final things if I may, please. Chief Sloly made a statement I believe February 2nd that there was no policing solution alone to this problem. And by that, did you understand, or do you now understand that to mean that the Ottawa Police Service was never going to be able to provide the solutions on its own, whether with By-law or otherwise?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, at the time, I didn't understand what the statement meant. We assumed it meant that there'd have to be negotiations with some other level of government, but that was a supposition on our part.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
But even now, I'm not sure. I never discussed that with Chief Sloly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Fine. And then in terms of the negotiation that did take place that you explained to the Commissioner, the -- I'll just leave it on this basis. Am I right that you and Chief Sloly didn't have any detailed operational discussions as to where the trucks were going to be moved from the residential areas, where they would end up?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, there was a meeting with himself, myself, Kim Ayotte, Trish Ferguson and Steve Bell. My recollection is we were talking about Wellington, but it wasn't -- I don't think we got into the specifics of Wellington from the perspective of we had all the logistics worked out. That happen until the 13th where we worked out the logistics. So I could understand if someone left that call, not being clear on where the trucks want to go, but it was discussed.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. And in any event, Superintendent -- Acting Superintendent I think it was Drummond had the operational ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- responsibility on the ground?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can I show you one last document if I may, and just to have your identification of it for the Commissioner's assistance later perhaps? OPP00001521, please. And just -- I'll just need you, Mr. Kanellakos, to help us with a thing I -- do you -- did you participate in a call between representatives of the City of Ottawa, the federal government, and the provincial government on 6th of February?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I don't know whether you've had a chance to look at these notes, but there -- lots of people were taking notes. These ones appear to have been taken by the provincial representative.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You see the -- that bullet point describing some comments attributed to you, a concern that local councillors -- that would be City of Ottawa councillors, I presume, "...pointing the finger at the province and federal government to provide assistance [...] Mayor [...] Watson [...] to declare [a state of local --] a local emergency in the City of Ottawa [...] expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this." You've described this. And it goes on and I won't have time to take you through it, but you were present at that meeting, and you knew that people were recording whatever everyone was saying was the situation at the time?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, I didn't know specifically people were recording, but obviously, someone thought that was quite important that they took the time to bold it.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Understood. And that was ultimately the mayor's intention in addressing this matter through the declaration of an emergency was to get the resources that Chief Sloly and others had said were required and that you agree were required.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Exactly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
All right. I don't have any other questions for you.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is either the Organizers or the Ottawa Coalition. Do you want to take another pass? Okay. Okay, well, it's okay. We're all trying to get to the same things here. Okay.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For the record, the Organizers owe us all, I think ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is Paul Champ. I am the counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, Community Associations and BIAs from downton.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Good afternoon.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'll start off, Mr. Kanellakos, asking you about the information that was known by the City before the protest started. Now you told us that the information the City got, you know, the hotels and so forth, you shared that with the OPS or the Ottawa Police Service, but then the OPS provided you and the City with an assessment that they thought it was only going to be three days or so; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But there was some information, even in the hands of the City, to suggest that this protest could or would go on for much longer than three days; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There was.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And but the -- I understand the City police did not view that -- they didn't think that's what was going to happen, but did they tell the City about any contingency plans in the event the protest did go on for longer?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I'm not aware of any.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you have concerns about that? Did you ask for any contingency plans?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were aware, Mr. Kanellakos, that you were saying, you know, the numbers vary, and you never quite know about who shows up, but in this particular case, you were aware that a very large number of people were coming from very far away and a large number of trucks. You were aware that those people were coming to Ottawa for several days; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The number, as I said, evolved from the start of the week to the actual weekend, so the number was changing on a regular basis as more information was coming in across the country. And Ottawa Police was collating that information and sharing with us. The City of Ottawa has no intelligence capacity to gather that information.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So the City of Ottawa just relied essentially completely on the Ottawa Police for their assessment of that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We have to. We don't have the complete intelligence picture available to us from all the other agencies at the federal and provincial level that they do.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And unfortunately, we now know that that confidence was misplaced; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, it went longer obviously, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in terms of the response, you know, allowing the trucks to come downtown, the trucks to park on Wellington Street, you've told us that that was all based on the call of the Ottawa Police? That was their decisions and their decisions alone to make; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the City of Ottawa was essentially at the mercy of the Ottawa Police and their decisions on these issues; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I wouldn't say we're at the mercy. It's their decision. It's our job to support that decision, and it's, quite frankly, our job to assess when they make that decision if we can fulfil the request that they make of us.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now in terms of protecting the people of Ottawa, that's a responsibility of the City of Ottawa as well as the Ottawa Police?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
When you say the word protecting, can you be more clear what that means?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the safety and security of the people of Ottawa, whatever the threats or cause of those risks may be, whether it's from propane tanks, or open fires, or potential crime, that's protecting the safety and security of the people of Ottawa is responsibility of the Ottawa Police and the City of Ottawa; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It's mostly the Ottawa Police, but City of Ottawa obviously has a role in the health and safety of our residents, but it's a much more restricted role compared to police.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now on the decision to allow the trucks -- to have the commercial trucks come in and park, you've told us that there was a legal opinion, the city of -- or the Ottawa Police were telling there's a legal opinion that under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that these commercial trucks had the right of mobility to come and park anywhere they wanted. Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I never referred to a legal opinion. I've never seen a legal opinion or reference to legal opinion. We were advised that Chief Sloly and others in the police made that statement publicly in terms of infringing on people's rights, preventing them from coming in.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So they couldn't prevent them from coming in because of the Charter of Rights, that's what you were hearing?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's what we heard publicly. That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
And in internal meetings.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, okay. So you did hear that from internal meetings. And did you ask your own City solicitor to provide you with an opinion on that issue?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And why was that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, first of all, at the time, I didn't realize they had a legal opinion, but the second part of it is that, again, police are responsible to keep public order, and as I said in my previous testimony, they're very experienced at doing it. The first weekend we had no reason to question the intelligence and the strategy and tactics that they were employing to deal with what they believed was going to be an event similar to another event they had in the past with the farmer convoy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mr. Kanellakos, I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics, I'm just talking about this first point, about their opinion that the -- they couldn't -- they didn't have legal authority to stop the trucks, perhaps, because of the Charter. You and the -- you did not instruct your City of Ottawa Council to look into that issue; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had occasion, we've heard evidence, to deal with federal government officials and provincial government officials, including ministers. Did any of them ever express a view about whether the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects commercial trucks?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We didn't have meetings with them until well after the first weekend. Leading up into that weekend, I didn't have any conversations, sir. I don't know any of my team that had conversations on that topic with the federal government.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In your evidence, though, Mr. Kanellakos, this morning you were telling us that even by the second weekend, when there was -- you were hopeful that perhaps the police would stop more trucks from coming in the second weekend, but that again they told you that because of the Charter they didn't have the legal authority to stop the trucks from coming in. So by the second weekend that was still your understanding of ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- what the police were telling you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you a couple of questions about this event/protest distinction. So events, those are things where there's -- someone's holding a celebration or marking a day or whatnot, and they want to go into a park or a parking lot or some -- it can be a private location, it can be a public location, all these things, if they want to put up tents, if they wanted to have a large number of food served. All of those things they need to get permits from the City; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we've heard evidence, and we understand that, though, for protests, the City does not require protests, or pardon me, do not require permits because that's an exercise of Charter Rights and Freedoms; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, we tried to look at -- we tried -- the permit -- one of the benefits of the permit or the purpose of the permit is to understand, even if it's a protest, what the plans are of the protestors so we can mitigate some of those effects in advance with respect to traffic, city services, et cetera, barricades, whatever it happens to be, garbage pickup. And so -- but we can't force a protest group to buy a permit from the city, and if they don't get one there's nothing we do about it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does the City have -- but if someone puts on an event and they don't get a permit the City will shut them down quite quickly; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
If they're protesting ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm not talking about protesting.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
On an event, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. Protests versus event. But for an event, you'll shut them down?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
On Friday, one of our clients testified, the Director of the Vanier BIA, that they put on events all the time, and they understand very well the types of permits they need, and they also said about the purpose of permits is often about safety. Whether you're putting up a big tent, there has to be adhering requirements and so forth. So it's all about safety, correct, permits?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Safety is one of the key considerations, but not the only one.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so the City has in mind some difference between a protest and event?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- now, do protests typically have fireworks and tents?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Protests?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or barbeques or hot tubs?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or stages and dance parties?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They sound a bit more like an event, would you agree with me, Mr. Kanellakos, those kinds of things?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I don't agree with you on that. In the context it was a protest where people were doing things that were illegal. That's not an event in my mind.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the impacts, Mr. Kanellakos. It was your view that a lot of these different activities that were going on in Downtown Ottawa were presenting a serious danger and threat in the safety and security of the people of Ottawa; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Elements of it, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And we also know that it substantially interfered with a lot of the public services, of garbage pickup; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The firetrucks had difficulty getting downtown?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We heard about one incident with the Chateau Laurier that firetrucks couldn't get to them. You're aware of that event?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's actually not true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It wasn't true?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Really?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No. One firetruck couldn't get it, but there were firetrucks that got there from other routes. We have contingency built in for all our emergency operations. So the fire response actually did arrive. That particular truck that was witnessed couldn't get through. But we don't send firetrucks from just one location, we send it from multiple places.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I'm sure the general manager at the Chateau Laurier will find your evidence interesting, Mr. Kanellakos. What about the gas truck underneath the Rideau Centre? That was a serious risk and danger; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I can't make -- I don't agree with that assessment.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It wasn't a risk or a threat to have ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It was ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- a truck of fuel in an underground parking lot? That wasn't a threat?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
You described it as a serious threat. The truck was removed. I don't characterise it in that kind of urgency.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you can review the emails yourself, sir. I believe the Rideau Centre did believe it was quite a risk and a threat.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I can't speak for the ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- Rideau Centre.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- the paramedics sometimes had difficulty getting downtown; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about garbage services? They were basically not happening at all in that area; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, in some of those areas, that's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In the red zone?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about homecare services? Homecare service was also stopped in the red zone; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, when you -- could you describe what you mean by homecare services? Because there were other social services that were still being provided. There was an effort made to do that. So could you please clarify?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, people who live in their home who have mobility or other physical disability issues who require homecare services. Those services ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah, there were ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- were interrupted.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
There were issues getting services into the neighbourhood, that's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So some of our most vulnerable and disadvantaged citizens were put at risk; is that right, Mr. Kanellakos?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They were.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And snow removal was also delayed?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, in some areas.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And there was also all kinds of large numbers of fake 9-1-1 and 3-1-1 calls; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That interrupted or interfered with our services in Ottawa?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The hospitals of Ottawa also reached out to the City of Ottawa about concerns that they were having interference with their services because of emergency calls being jammed, and also about difficulties of their workers even getting into the hospital, also patients having difficulty getting in for critical treatments; is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's true. Okay. Now, I just want to ask you a bit about your meetings with the organisers. Now, you said to us that you spoke with Mayor Watson to say that the PLT had reached out to you and had suggested this, and Mayor Watson did not have an opinion. Well initially he was reluctant, but ultimately he didn't instruct you one way or the other; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then you met later that day with Mr. Marazzo, Mr. Wilson, and Ms. Chipuik; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in that meeting, you told them that if they could do some things for you, you could arrange a meeting with the Mayor; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it sounds there like Mayor Watson did tell you he was open to those negotiations; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, Mayor -- no, the conversation that I had with the people that were in that room was that based on an agreement I would try to get a meeting with Mayor Watson. I couldn't commit Mayor Watson until we had an agreement.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, I guess we'll hear from the protestors of what their understanding, but you're telling us now, today, is that you did not say you could get a meeting with the Mayor, you said you'd try to get a meeting with the Mayor?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I couldn't -- until we worked out the final details ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- at that meeting, it was way too early to be able to commit Mayor Watson to a meeting.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you referred to Mr. Marazzo as Tom. Did you know Mr. Marazzo before then?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
First time I met him.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had -- you've had a number of interactions with him after that; is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, just one other. The night that he was -- I was incorrect. I checked. He was at the meeting on February 13th, the Sunday, when we were discussing the operation to move the trucks, that's the only other time I met him.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Now, you also told us that in meetings with federal government officials and also with the provincial solicitor general, there were concerns raised about the Ottawa Police Operational plans; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They felt it wasn't fully fleshed out, and so on and so forth?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now -- and you shared that with Mayor Watson?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He was in on some of the meetings I believe?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. Did you share that information with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't recall.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why not, sir?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It's not my role to talk to the Police Services Board Chair about what's happening in policing.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if you're hearing that there's a serious concern -- and so just to take one step back. Your understanding from those federal and provincial officials is that one of the reasons why there was a delay in the deployment of the RCMP and the OPP was because there were concerns with the OPS plans; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They were concerned about the readiness of the plan, is the way it was characterised.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And that was delaying their deployment of their ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's what they said, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've told us before that those additional resources were essential to bringing this occupation to an end; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- so again, sir, why didn't you share that information with the Ottawa Police Services Board?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
The Ottawa Police Services Board doesn't have a role in that operational aspect, so I -- to tell you the truth, I didn't see a need to share that with Councillor Deans or Chair Deans at the time.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn't think it was important for the Police Services Board to be aware that other police services were telling you and the Mayor that there were concerns with the Operational plans of the police?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Ottawa Police was aware of that. The actual police officers were aware of that, the senior command.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. With respect to Ontario, I think you suggest to us that it seemed to be that there was a high level of indifference to the City of Ottawa’s plight from Provincial Government officials? Is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I wouldn’t say it’s indifference. I think they were trying to be clear that this was a police matter, and as a Solicitor General, I think she believed it wasn’t her role to go further than that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- you told us about, in terms of the meetings with the organizers, you later had some interactions with Dean French; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. French, in your interactions with him, was it your understanding that he was aligned with the protestors? That he was representing the protestors?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. French was the recent former Chief of Staff to Premier Ford? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was aware of that, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. French was representing and was sympathetic to the protestors?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I can’t judge whether he was sympathetic, but he certainly was taking a position that he was a facilitator between the protestors and us.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we’ll hear some evidence later that he thought they were patriots. But I’m just wondering if you ever had a sense that perhaps Premier Ford had some sympathy for these protestors and that was the reason why they weren’t cooperating?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I never spoke to Premier Ford.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, but you did give us evidence earlier, Mr. Kanellakos, that you had some sense that Deputy Ministers at the provincial level weren’t interacting with you or providing all the assistance they perhaps could, perhaps because of direction from their political masters; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Perhaps, but that’s speculation.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And just the last question or last narrow area, just on the injunction. So the Ottawa Police on January 30th, Chief Sloly said that he would like the City of Ottawa to pursue an injunction; correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- but you felt that -- or not felt. It was your understanding the Ottawa Police was not providing sufficient information to your solicitors? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. According to my solicitors.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you gave instructions to your solicitors though to proceed with an injunction at some point?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
To proceed with discussions with Ottawa Police to seek an injunction, to prepare one.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in terms of the Li injunction, the Zexi Li injunction, were you aware that the City of Ottawa Police, the Ottawa Police, were cooperating with Ms. Li’s counsel in framing the injunction order and assisting with that process?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was not aware of that, no. At the time, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you don’t know why the Ottawa Police would be cooperating with Ms. Li, but as you say now, not providing information ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was not aware of that information.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And were you aware that Ms. Li was also reaching out to the City of Ottawa for assistance in their injunction? Were you aware of that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
At that time, I was not aware of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So during -- when you say not at that time, not during the ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’ve been advised just recently, this weekend, in preparation for this hearing, but I was not aware at the time when it was happening.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you didn’t give instructions to City of Ottawa counsel, Mr. White and others, not to provide information or assist Ms. Li in her ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I wasn’t aware that that advice was sought, or cooperation was sought.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank -- oh, thank you, Mr. Kanellakos.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. We have just sort of five minutes before lunch. Can I ask for the Democracy Fund maybe to go ahead, since they’re a five-minute examiner, and we’ll then take the lunch break? I’m sure Mr. Kanellakos needs a little time. And we’ve almost an hour of cross left. So go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROB KITTREDGE
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is Rob Kittredge and I’m counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, and I just have a couple of questions for you, and I want to start my stop watch, because I have a very limited amount of time granted to me here. I understand that approximately 34 vehicles were towed in the zone between January 28th and February 14th and some limited amount of towing took place outside of the zone during the same period. Does that sound about right to you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It sounds right, yeah.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. To your knowledge, none of those tow trucks were damaged by protestors? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’m not aware of any damage, but I believe they were light vehicles that were being towed.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. To your knowledge, none of the tow truck operators were assaulted by protestors? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’m not aware of any, no.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Some parking tickets were issued to illegally parked protest vehicles during the same time period. To your knowledge, none of the Bylaw Enforcement or police officers issuing these tickets were assaulted by protestors; were they?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I think there was one incident where they were -- they were -- what’s the word -- surrounded, but I’m not aware of any other incidents. That’s better put to the police. I wasn’t there.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
They were simply surrounded and not assaulted?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know the details.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. You’re not personally aware of that ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- incident? All right. You mentioned earlier that you felt that ticketing alone would not get rid of all the vehicles, that if all the ticketed vehicle owners simply didn’t care about tickets and no towing was taking place, then no trucks would move? Do you remember saying that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
While I’ll grant you that ticketing alone might not have moved every single one of the illegally parked vehicles, did it ever occur to you that mounting ticket costs might have motivated at least some of the owners of illegally parked vehicles to voluntarily move?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s a possibility, but you wouldn’t move everybody.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. And the knowledge that tickets had been issued to illegally parked vehicles on a daily or even hourly basis might have kept some vehicles from travelling to Ottawa to join the protests? Wouldn’t you agree?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s speculation. I’m not speculating on that.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. Regarding ticketing and towing outside of the red zone, you mentioned that the City was concerned that they would get the wrong people, and I understood that to mean that there was a concern that Ottawa residents might be boiled in and ticketed and towed along with the protest vehicles?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was a consideration, yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And wouldn’t the City have had authority to tow illegally parked -- to ticket and tow illegally parked vehicles whether they were part of the protests or not?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well we don’t normally tow illegally parked vehicles on city streets. I mean, it’s -- there’s a certain set of circumstances when a vehicle will be towed. So no.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But I mean under these circumstances, where the City was being ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well it depends where the vehicles were. If we’re talking the ByWard Market, there was still a mix of vehicles, protest vehicles and resident vehicles in the ByWard Market, based on the nature of how many people live in that area. So you can’t differentiate easily whose is whose.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But the City would have had the authority to ticket and tow vehicles regardless of whether they were involved in the protests or not? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
We have the authority to ticket and tow, yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Thank you. You indicated that the City has a number of what you called standing offer towing contractors, but that they were all unwilling to tow protest vehicles. Do you remember saying that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did the City try and negotiate with these standing offer towing contractors?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t know the extent of the discussion. I just know that I had asked that they all be called and asked. So those phone calls were made. What transpired on -- I don’t operate at that level. But what transpired in individual discussions with tow truck operators, I don’t know.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you instructed your people to call the tow truck operators and simply ask if they would help ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s right.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- tow trucks?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That they be made available.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you instruct your people to offer to cover any damage to the standing offer contractor’s towing vehicles.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I didn’t instruct that specifically, no.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you instruct your people to make any offers to increase compensation to standing offer towing contractors once it became clear that they weren’t willing to help?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I didn’t give specific directions to that level. That’s not the level I operate in.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. But don’t you think it might have made a difference to increase compensation to tow truck ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, based on the reasons I outlined why they didn’t want to do it, that they were telling us, I don’t know. Again, that’s speculation.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
As I recall, you mentioned that they were concerned about damage to their trucks, they were concerned about their safety, they were concerned about -- and some of them were sympathetic to the protestors, ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- essentially. Is that ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- a fair characterization?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well there were four areas. Yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So if they’re concerned about damage to their trucks, I would think that offering to compensate them for damage ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Even if you -- well, maybe so, but I would argue that -- and I shouldn’t say that -- I would submit in my own opinion that maybe damage to a truck, even though they’re compensated, still isn’t worth the damage to your truck. They’re very expensive trucks. And then you start getting into whole other situations about the compensation for that. So they had their own reasons, and I don’t know if our people offered them anything else outside of the standing offer contract. I didn’t instruct that. I just instructed to try and get tow trucks retained and make them available for us.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well we just tipped over my five minutes. So thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well we’re a few seconds away from 1:00 o’clock. So what I’d suggest is we’ll take the lunch break. Everybody, I think, needs a little time. So we’ll come back at 2:00 o’clock. Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend. STEVE KANELLAKOS, Resumed:
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good afternoon, bon après-midi. This is just a reminder that there's no recording allowed in the room. Il n'y a pas d'enregistrement qui est permis. It is all live-streamed, so it's available to everyone, but it's -- I mentioned it last week and I mention it again, and if there's failure to cooperate, I'm afraid we're going to have to exclude people who are not cooperating. So just a reminder, please, no recording of the proceedings in the room. Okay. So with that brief comment, is the Convoy Organizers, are you -- is this a convenient time? Okay. Well, let's see the product.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Good afternoon. My name is Brendan Miller. I'm counsel for Freedom Corp., which is a entity that represents the protesters that attended in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Thank you for coming here today, sir. Sir, I just want to begin dealing with the issue with respect to the agreement that then went awry on February 14th and 15th and 16th; okay? So I first want to put to you a statement from one of your colleagues, Mr. Arpin, and I want to ask you if that is an accurate understanding of what he said. And I'm doing this to be fair to you because he's testifying next; right? So as I understand it, this is Mr. Arpin's evidence on that point, is that, "On February 12th, 2022, an agreement was reached with the protesters who promised to remove 75 percent of the trucks in residential areas. Mr. Arpin had several conversations with Mr. French, including an in-person meeting to finalize the details of the agreement. Mr. Arpin spoke only with Mr. French and held no discussions with protestors. The mayor did not take part in the discussions between Mr. French and Mr. Arpin. Per the agreement, some vehicles would be relocated to Wellington Street. The City's understanding was that some protesters wanted to leave entirely, and the others would relocate to sites outside the city (for instance, Vankleek Hill). According to the City, it was understood that the agreement was not a permanent solution, but it was nevertheless considered a short- term victory for residents overwhelmed by the protest. On February 13th, 2022, some senior members of the Ottawa Police Service, including Chief Peter Sloly, the Deputy Chief Steve Bell and Superintendent Rob Drummond were advised of the content of the agreement. They shared no concern about the plan. Furthermore, during the meeting with some senior OPS members, they stated that the agreement could ease tensions with the protesters and increase the police's capacity to respond since they would have a smaller footprint to manage. Also, it was Mr. Arpin's understanding that the Superintendent Drummond took part in a meeting where he was involved in elaborating the plan's details with Mr. K..." (As read) And I'll call you that. I'll butcher pronouncing it. "...a meeting in which Mr. Arpin was not involved. According to Mr. Arpin, there was no doubt that Deputy Chief Bell and Superintendent Drummond were aware that a number of vehicles would be added to Wellington Street. Chief Sloly was advised of the agreement during a meeting, whose attendees included Kim Ayotte, General Manager of the City's Emergency and Protective Services and Mr. K. He also received by email a copy of the letter from Mayor Watson to the convoy organizers confirming the agreement. The agreement was announced to council members that day. On February 14th, 2022, the protesters began moving the trucks with the support of OPS. In the afternoon, according to information provided to Mr. Arpin and for reasons unknown to him, the OPS ended the operation. It was his understanding that approximately 102 vehicles (roughly 25 percent of the vehicles) had been moved in the meantime, including approximately 40 heavy trucks." (As read) Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
May I ask what you're reading from because I missed that part at the beginning if you said ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- and my apologies.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's your colleague, Mr. Arpin's statement.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Oh, his statement.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's what he said happened.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, I think we might have to take this fact by fact. That was a fairly long read to ask whether the witness agrees with whether that entirety of a description is correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
In addition to that, Mr. Commissioner, I just point out that Mr. Miller is seeking to ask a question about a statement of a witness who hasn't testified yet and leave needs to be sought to question on that statement.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not going to question you about it. I just wanted to know whether or not it's accurate. I have to put it to you in order to make sure that I'm fair to you. And so I can break it down.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think that comes pretty close to questioning ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- on it. You're asking him to confirm that ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- information. So perhaps we can go at it in a different way, and you can put to him questions about certain facts and does he agree with that and go at it one ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sort of block at a time without reference to the memo, because in the end, he can't confirm what ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Mr. Arpin said or didn't say and he'll be up, if all goes well, pretty soon.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, Mr. K., on February 12th, 2022, there was an agreement reached with the protesters; is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that agreement -- in that agreement, they promised to move 75 percent of the trucks from the residential areas?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don't recall the specific 75 percent of the trucks, but -- so I can't confirm that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And per the agreement, some of the vehicles were to be relocated to Wellington Street; is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it was your understanding that some of the protesters wanted to leave entirely as well?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it was your understanding that others were going to relocate to sites outside the City?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s what we were told.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And according to the City, it understood the agreement was not a permanent solution?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But the City, nevertheless, considered a short-term victory for residents overwhelmed by protests.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so on February 13th, 2022, there was a meeting between members of the Ottawa Police Service including Chief Peter Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, and Superintendent Rod Drummond, and they were advised of the content of the agreement. Are you aware of that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’m not sure that Superintendent Drummond was on that call because he didn’t get assigned until after 3:30 that day when I emailed Chief Sloly asking for a representative from police. I believe who was on the call was Acting Deputy Chief Trish Ferguson, Deputy Chief, then Deputy Chief Bell, Chief Sloly, myself, and Kim Ayotte.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it fair to say that none of the Ontario Police Service members on the call shared concerns about the plan?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Chief Slowly did share some concerns about the plan from an operational capacity to be able to effect the plan, ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- as I stated earlier.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But they did say to -- the OPS members that were present did state that the agreement could ease tensions, is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And by carrying out the agreement, it could also increase the police capacity to respond.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So is there any doubt at all that Deputy Chief Bell knew about this agreement?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Oh, he knew about the agreement.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And even though he may not have been there, Superintendent Drummond eventually found out about the agreement that day, is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He would have been briefed up, I would assume, after he was assigned or before he was assigned, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Superintendent Drummond never raised any concern with you with respect to that agreement?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it’s true that on February 14th, 2022, the protesters began to move the trucks with the support of OPS, is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
They did; that Monday morning they started, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it not true that it was OPS that ended the operation?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it was not the protesters or the truckers who didn’t follow through with the deal. They were stopped by OPS from following through with it; isn’t that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, not exactly. There were two aspects to it. There were also people parked in the street who were refusing to move their vehicles. So they didn’t -- they weren’t accepting the deal as part of the deal and Ottawa Police eventually stopped it, and that’s a question for them. But there were people who refused to participate in the deal on the street.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so wasn’t there approximately 102 vehicles moved, roughly 25 percent and they had moved in the meantime approximately 40 heavy trucks; is that not correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, as I said earlier, that number is in dispute. I had heard 40 trucks and possibly up to 100 total vehicles, but I don’t think that represents 25 percent of all the vehicles because the heavy trucks might have been about 500. The numbers were not nailed down, and even that day on how many were moved, we couldn’t get an accurate count.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you did have dealings with Mr. Keith Wilson throughout these negotiations; is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And that included both texts and phone calls?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So if we can bring up Document HRF0001333, please? And can you scroll down? Just down to the text messages, to the first -- to the beginning. Right there. Scroll back up. Page 2, please. Just right at the top. Okay. So Mr. K, is that a set of text messages between you and Mr. Wilson?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So Mr. Wilson there, he’s in blue and you’re in grey; is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I’m in -- oh yeah, I’m in grey, that’s right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s fine.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, no. So there you state, or Keith, Mr. Wilson states to you: “Trucker logistics delegation of 5 persons will be arriving for a 5:30 pm meeting at [the] city hall. Please confirm receipt. Thank you. Keith here” And you confirmed it. And you said: “Call me when they arrive and tell me what city hall entrance they are at and I will come and get them. Thank you Keith. Steve K” Right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So you guys met. And if we could scroll down? And that was on February 13th. And he says: “Will do. I have given Eva and Tom [being Eva Chipiac (phonetic) and Tom Marazzo] your cell number” You said, “Perfect”. There was then some issues, as I understand, a misunderstanding on social media, and you had an exchange about that.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that’s that exchange. If you can scroll down, Ma’am? And Mr. Wilson got that fixed.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Mr. Wilson then let you know, if we can just scroll down -- I think the whole thing’s there too. On February 14th at 10:13 a.m.: “FYI. Trucks are ready to [be] move[d] but are being blocked by police.” And you responded: “I’m fixing that We are allowing 10 trucks now as a sign of good faith” And he responds: “Thanks. Eva is heading to Chris B [being Chris Barber] to be on the ground there.” And you said, “Okay, good.” Then he stated: “FYI. Tamara Lich...former Premier Peckford plan to hold a press conference...” If you could scroll down: “...at 3 pm today. The sole and exclusive Focus will be on the federal governments [sic] announcement of the invocation of the emergencies act. No other topics will be discussed. No comments will be made about the arrangement with the city to relocate the trucks [to] D escalate pressure on [the] residences [sic]” And you say: “Thank you. This is very good to know. Appreciate the heads up” And then the next day, he asks whether -- telling you: “The truckers want to move 40 plus trucks tomorrow starting in the morning. They have...room on Wellington to fit [it]. That would just about clear out almost all...the residential areas.” And you then advise him that you’re having some4 issues -- if you can scroll down -- with the Parliamentary Protection Services. And the new interim Chief is engaged, and you’ll know more tomorrow morning and will share that with you. You then -- after that, on February 16th, as I understand it, you ask him if he’s available for a call, and you have a phone conversation with Mr. Wilson. Isn’t that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
According to this, yes. I don’t recall it but yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And in that phone conversation, as I understand, you apologized that the deal fell apart because of some issues arising with the Parliamentary Security Services, and that it was not the protesters’ fault. Isn’t that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I don’t recall saying that specifically because I don’t have a record of it, but I remember we did have a conversation of that I was disappointed we couldn’t move more trucks out of the neighbourhood.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s fair to say that at all times through all of this, Mr. Wilson was engaged with you, and he acted in good faith with you, in your mind?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he did everything he could in his power in order to move these trucks?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And these individuals tried to move their trucks under the agreement onto Wellington, and it was the OPS who didn’t allow it.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well, I don’t know if it was the OPS or PPS, I’m not sure how that worked ultimately but events had overtaken that day. As you know, by that time Chief Sloly had resigned, and I was made aware that Ottawa Police and the other police service were getting ready to move into tactical operations. So at that point, I think that was probably the greater reason why they stopped moving trucks up on Wellington Street.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So I want to kind of take you to another point and there’s a lot of folks watching this. Part of these commissions is to get a better understanding for the general public, and so I want to kind of use your very unique background to do that. I understand just from looking at your background that you have an extensive amount of experience in policing, as well as in municipal governments -- governance and general public governance generally, isn’t that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you attended and graduated with both an undergraduate and a Master’s degree from Carleton University?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you graduated with your Bachelor’s degree in Public Administration in 1982?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You then graduated with your Master’s in Public Administration from Carleton university in 1985?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I would like you to do, in your own words, because a Master of Public Administration is actually a very important program. Can you explain for the folks at home and people here about what those programs are about, in your own words?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Like generally ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
--- what the programs are about?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Those degrees. The Public Administration.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I would say, in a succinct manner, that the Public Administration Program is about understanding good governance and what the role of a public servant is in working within the government structure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it’s fair to say that a Masters of Public Administration is one of the primary degrees for such positions as Deputy Ministers, Clerks of the Privy Council, et cetera, and is quite common for individuals who hold office like that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, it seems to be common. Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And between 1985 and 1989, what did you do for employment?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Which years?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just after you graduated from ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I was at Gloucester Police, which was pre-amalgamation policing. There were three police services in the area.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And that’s the Gloucester Police Service. And you were there as the Director? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. When I left, yes. Well, when we amalgamated, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And the amalgamation between that police service and with Ottawa and Nepean, that occurred in 1994? Is that fair?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It went into affect January 1st, 1995.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And then it became Carleton Regional Police Service? Is that correct?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Ottawa Carleton Regional Police Service. Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you became the Director General of the Carleton Regional Police Service?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were in that position between 1994 and the spring of 2000?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you explain, what are your duties as director of the police service?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well as Director General, I was on the executive command. It’s basically a civilian deputy chief. And I was responsible for the administration of the police service, everything from finance, HR, evidence room, facilities, fleet, IT, 9-1-1, for a while I had the Court Liaison function. So it was all the support functions. Training, HR. So I had all the support functions that supported the operations of the police service.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you were involved in -- unlike your current position, you were involved in the operation of the police service and their operations in that position?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So can you also explain, for the folks at home as well, and they may not understand, about the separation between municipalities and general executive government from the police service and how they’re independent?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, it’s clear in the Police Services Act, that the police is an independent authority reporting to the Ottawa Police Services Board or a Police Board. The Board has defined responsibilities over the police, but not to direct the Police Chief operationally. And certainly the Mayor, City Councillors, as a body or as individuals, or city administration officials, cannot direct the Chief of Police on any matter.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it’s fair to say that police constables and the Chief make all of their operational decisions, such as what to do with a protest, as well as what to do when arresting someone or if they’re going to lay charges, that is all independent of any other branch of government?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Or supposed to be?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Supposed to be, yes, but it is.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And on January 30th, 2022, I understand you had a phone meeting with Chief Sloly and that’s when he asked you about getting the injunction? Isn’t that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And you had agreed to prepare to seek that injunction, but it was also agreed that the final decision was going to be with you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, after January 30th, 2022, did Chief Sloly, did he say to you -- or did Chief Sloly, sorry, did he say to you that he no longer recommended pursuing that injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you aware that on January 31st, 2022, that Commissioner of the RCMP, Ms. Brenda Lucki, told him that he shouldn’t pursue it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
At the time, no. As I stated earlier in my testimony.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you have any dealings as well with Ms. Brenda Lucki during these events?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Only -- never individually, or Commissioner Kerik. It was always in the group discussions with the Deputy Ministers, themselves and us, with the situational awareness and the resource requirements.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it you did have several meetings though with the Executive Branch of the Federal Government? Is that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Can you please clarify what you mean by Executive Branch?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Prime Minister and Ministers.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Never with the Prime Minister, but several Ministers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so were you kept apprised, at least by Mayor Watson, of his contact with the Prime Minister?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
He informed me that he spoke to the Prime Minister and generally what they talked about, but not in any great detail.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did he relay to you that on January 31st, 2022, that he asked for additional officers from the RCMP from the Prime Minister?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I take it that you were probably not privy to this call either, but were told about it, on February 3rd, 2022, Mayor Watson had a phone meeting with Minister Mendicino?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I heard about it, but I was not on the call.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And again, he reiterated his request for more officers, I take it?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That’s correct. That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you participate, on February 3rd, 2022, there was a meeting with the representatives of GoFundMe? Do you remember that?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. And I didn’t participate in that call.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And is it not true that you talked to representatives of GoFundMe into freezing the funds for the convoy and for the protest and they did so?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
When you say “you”, are you referring to me specifically or the City at large?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The City at large. My apologies. I should -- it was -- both yourself were present, Mayor Watson, and City Solicitor David White, with some GoFundMe reps?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No, I wasn’t present at that call, even though -- I don’t know what you’re referring to, but I did not participate in the calls with GoFundMe reps. I was advised of it after. And it was a City Solicitor and the Mayor’s Office that had that discussion with them.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what was the influence for the City not getting the injunction right away after Chief Sloly said to get one?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
What was the ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What was the reason? Why didn’t the City go out and get the injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
As I said earlier, the request was very broad. It wasn’t specific. We never discussed the specifics with Chief Sloly. I didn’t. And we left it to the two legal teams on the police side and our City Solicitor to work out what an injunction might look like in terms of scope, what evidence that we’re going to bring, and how it would be enforced. Those were the key issues that we were referring to. So we didn’t have that information up until -- well, we never did get it completely. But we were never in a position to satisfy that request until later on when we stuck to the municipal scope of operations and enforcement.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it throughout your history and working in policing, that you’ve participated in obtaining injunctions in the past; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’ve never participated in obtaining an injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so you don’t have any understanding of how that proceeding would work?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Well in advance I didn’t have a good understanding, but I certainly have a pretty good one now, because we got -- we were -- I was working with our City Solicitor and I had lots of questions about injunctions. So it was explained to me and I think I understand how it works.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you had said in your evidence that one of the biggest problems that you faced was not having tow trucks?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
In relation to the injunction or in relation to other things?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In relation to removing the protestors or getting them to leave.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Tow trucks was a tool that would be required in an integrated operational enforcement plan. On its own, tow trucks weren’t of a big value with that many trucks that were there. It had to be integrated into an operational plan, and to effect the operational plan, you needed to have those tools available to you to finish it off.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you knew that the OPS and OPP had already quite shortly after the weekend that they stayed longer than you anticipated, had already gathered the license plates, registration, et cetera, for all of those trucks and they had them in their possession?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I understand the issue with tow trucks, but having all that information in their possession and given that you were a director of police, you know what a BOLO is; don’t you?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it’s a “Be on the Lookout”; right? And if one were to drive a truck here, they would have a set of keys?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So no one issued a BOLO for the drivers to have them arrested and take their keys; did they?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Not that I’m aware.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Why?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
You’d have to ask the police that. I don’t know.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you don’t know about that as an option wasn't something you considered when you were trying to deal with this issue?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
It wasn't my -- in my purview to, or my scope of operations to consider something like that. As you said earlier, that's a police scope issue in terms of how they choose to arrest or detain somebody.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just to let you know, I think you're now on borrowed time.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh. I will just wrap this up then. That's fine. Thank you very much.
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm willing to be accommodating, but there you go. You are also. Okay, thank you. So next, if I could call on the Government of Canada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA GONSALVES
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Kanellakos. I am Andrea Gonsalves, and I'm counsel for the Government of Canada, and I have just a few questions for you. I think I understood from your evidence this morning, but just to be clear, it's fair to say that during the period of the protests in Ottawa there were some areas where the protest activity was more volatile and some areas where it was less. Do I have that right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And where the situation was more volatile the risk to by-law and law enforcement officers was greater?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, it was.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Some areas had greater potential for violence, greater risk of weapons being present?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And for example, are you aware that the Rideau and Sussex intersection was considered a more volatile, higher risk area?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. Chief Sloly fully briefed us on that.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. You recall him briefing you that there was a Quebec contingent there?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
They had an aggressive stature, they were well organised; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, we've heard a lot of evidence today about the City's injunction application. And I'd ask us -- I'd ask that document OTT, three zeroes, one, three zeroes, five be pulled up. Mr. Kanellakos, on the screen you'll see City of Ottawa and Persons Unknown Application record. You're familiar with that as the application record filed by the City in support of its injunction?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. Generally, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Generally. If we go down, I think it may be a couple of pages in. Actually, if you can go back to the next page where the index is. You're aware that Mr. Ayotte was the City's affiant. He provided the evidence ---
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- in support?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes, I am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then the Notice of Application issued February 11th, are you familiar with that document?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
I'd have to see it again, but ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sure. Let's just go ahead there. This is the document prepared by the City that set out the basis on which it was requesting the injunction; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes. Okay, yeah, I know what you're referring to.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And from the City's perspective, the injunction was necessary at this point in time because of the extent of the by-law infractions that were going on; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It's in the document, but I'll just summarise. The protestors' actions were interfering with the City's ability to maintain roads?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Perform snow removal?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Regulate the flow of traffic?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Enforce by-laws?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Provide public transportation?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Perform waste removal?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The document describes all of these behaviours as a public nuisance that threatened public safety; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And by this point, despite over 2,000 by-laws tickets having been issued, these -- the by-law violations were not stopping; right?
Steve Kanellakos, City Manager (Ott)
That was my point earlier, yes.