Alexandra Heine
Alexandra Heine spoke 545 times across 3 days of testimony.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commisaire.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Notre prochain témoin est M. Charland, M. Steeve Charland.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commissaire. Avant de commencer avec mes questions, mon confrère Nicolas St- Pierre, qui est l’avocat de M. Charland, est dans l’audience et il aimerait faire une objection.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors bonjour, Monsieur Charland, mon nom est Alexandra Heine et je suis avocate de la Commission. Alors j’aimerais vous poser quelques questions aujourd’hui au sujet de votre participation au Convoi de la liberté qui s’est déroulé au mois de janvier et février 2022 à Ottawa. Le but de mes questions est d’aider le Commissaire avec son mandat. Pour commencer, je vais vous montrer un document, et Monsieur le greffier si vous pouviez s’il vous plait montrer le document SAE-11, c’est votre déclaration de preuve anticipée.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If you could please put that one up. Thanks. Alors Monsieur Charland, est-ce que ce document est la déclaration de preuve anticipée que nous vous avons envoyée ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et avez-vous eu la chance de réviser cette déclaration ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Êtes-vous d’accord avec son contenu ou aimeriez-vous faire des corrections ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors vous vivez dans la région Grenville-sur-la-Rouge au Québec.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Où se situe cette région ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et vous êtes travailleur autonome dans le commerce du bois de chauffage. Pourriez-vous nous expliquer à quoi ça ressemble être travailleur autonome dans ce domaine ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Et pourriez-vous nous expliquer qui sont les Farfadaas?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Qui sont les oubliés?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quand est-ce que ce mouvement-là a commencé?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Combien de gens font partie des Farfadaas?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors c'est un mouvement pancanadien, pas juste un mouvement québécois?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Mais la plupart des membres viennent du Québec.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Pis je comprends que les Farfadaas font du militantisme social et politique? Sh : Oui.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pourriez-vous nous expliquer ce que ça veut dire le militantisme pour vous. Et quelles causes de nature sociale et politique vous préoccupent? Vous et les Farfadaas.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit que vous faisiez partie du groupe la Meute, pourquoi êtes-vous parti de ce groupe-là?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, vous êtes préoccupé avec un manque d’engagement de la part du gouvernement, avec les électeurs. Un manque de responsabilité, de transparence et que vos voix sont exclues. Effectivement, les discours au niveau politique, est-ce que, en bref, c'est ça?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, maintenant, j’aimerais vous demander des questions au sujet du convoi de liberté. Quand avez-vous pris conscience de ce mouvement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors vous avez dit que vous êtes arrivé le 29. Vous êtes parti de Lachute, au Québec?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et comment est-ce que vous avez regroupé le reste des membres du mouvement des Farfadaas?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pis il y avait combien de personnes? Et aussi de véhicules? Comment de personnes est-ce qu’il y avait et véhicules, quelles sortes de véhicules faisaient partie de ce convoi-là?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Pis j’ai pas demandé au greffier de vous montrer ce document-là, mais, vous avez fait une entrevue avec un journaliste du Droit, qui est un journal d’expression francophone, je pense que c’était le 30 janvier. Est-ce que c’est exact?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis ce journaliste vous a demandé pourquoi vous avez décidé de vous joindre aux manifestations à Ottawa, à la place de vous joindre, par exemple, aux manifestations à l’Assemblée législative au Québec et vous avez répondu que vous avez profité du momentum et que les gouvernements se sont donnés des mandats, qu’ils ont dépassé leur mandat.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pardon, commissaire.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. « Comment ça se fait qu’ils ont le droit d’avoir ce pouvoir, de nous dire qu’à 20 heures, on ne peut plus sortir de chez nous puis on me dit dans un pays libre, tu me dis avec qui je peux souper à Noël. J’ai le droit d’aller chez Costco à 300, mais je ne peux pas inviter ma grand-mère à souper. Si ça, c’est normal, moi, je ne veux plus vivre dans ce pays-là; je vais me battre jusqu’au bout, jusqu’à temps qu’ils remettent notre liberté (audio qui coupe). Sinon, je ne sais pas où ça va finir, mais on va le faire de façon pacifique, comme on l’a toujours fait. » C’est encore exact?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis quel objectif spécifiquement vouliez-vous atteindre en participant au mouvement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quel objectif spécifique est- ce que vous vouliez atteindre en participant au convoi?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous avez aussi dit dans cette entrevue-là que vous vouliez atteindre cet objectif – vous venez juste de nous le décrire, votre objectif – de façon pacifique. Avez-vous pris des mesures proactives pour entreprendre… pour vous assurer que votre objectif allait être accompli de façon pacifique?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit que vous avez influencé les gens de manifester de façon pacifique – par quel biais? Est-ce que c’était les réseaux sociaux ou de vive voix?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quels réseaux sociaux est- ce que vous utilisez pour passer le message, que vous avez utilisés?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Facebook, OK. Et d’autres médias sociaux?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Lors d’un discours à Ottawa, il y avait une estrade, si vous vous souvenez, sur la rue Wellington et il y avait différentes personnes qui allaient faire des discours là. Puis vous, vous avez été un jour puis vous avez déclaré que « Je ne partirai que lorsque j’aurai retrouvé ma liberté ou lorsque je serai mort ». Que voulez-vous dire exactement par cette déclaration?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais est-ce que vous feriez référence spécifiquement aux manifestations à Ottawa? Alors, est-ce que votre but, c’était de rester là indéfiniment?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK – on va discuter un peu plus de l’injonction plus tard. J’aimerais juste retourner à votre voyage à Ottawa de Lachute. Alors, vous êtes parti de Lachute le 29 janvier puis vous avez dit que votre convoi était d’environ 1,7 kilomètre de long. Est-ce que vous savez…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pardon, 107 kilomètres de long. Est-ce que vous savez combien de personnes, combien de véhicules faisaient partie de ce convoi-là de 100 kilomètres, environ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis on vient juste de parler du stationnement du ZB, alors vous êtes arrivés à Gatineau le 29. Est-ce que vous êtes allé au stationnement du ZB tout de suite?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ça, c’est devenu un quartier général pour les Farfadaass?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et est-ce que vous aviez une entente avec le propriétaire du stationnement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quelle était l’entente?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, on est au 29 janvier. Est-ce que vous avez reçu un appel de Pat King le 29 janvier?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pourquoi est-ce que Pat King veut vous demander à vous et aux Farfadaas si vous pourriez lui donner de la sécurité?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Les gens de votre groupe?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et cette personne-là qui vous a contactée, comment est-ce qu’elle, elle a été contactée par Pat King?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, on est le 29 janvier, je comprends que vous avez tenté de traverser le pont MacDonald Cartier pour que vos camions puissent aller rejoindre le reste des véhicules qui étaient stationnés sur la rue Wellington – pas le reste des véhicules Farfadaass, mais les autres manifestants, mais que la police vous a pas laissé passer. Est-ce que c’est exact?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis je comprends que ces négociations-là que vous venez de référer, c’était avec la GRC, des policiers de la GRC?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Avec qui est-ce que vos négociations principales étaient-tu avec la GRC ou avec les services municipaux?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis la GRC vous a laissé passer sur le pont Macdonald-Cartier.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, si je comprends votre trajet, vous étiez proche du pont Portage, vous avez été au nord sur la rue Maisonneuve jusqu’à Macdonald-Cartier. La police de la GRC vous a escortés au sud à travers de Macdonald- Cartier vers le Parlement.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis on a reçu un vidéo, on va pas l’écouter parce qu’il est une heure de longue, mais le vidéo démontrer que plusieurs véhicules, des camionnettes, des roulottes et des membres des Farfadaas ont traversé le pont à travers du marché By et sur la rue Rideau, ils ont tourné à l’est vers le Parlement. Est-ce que cette trajectoire est exacte?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous vous souvenez…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous vous souvenez où sur Rideau vous avez arrêté?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
C’était-tu proche du centre d’achat? Est-ce que vous pourriez… pouviez voir le Parlement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et le Château Laurier?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La semaine passée, durant les audiences publiques, des fonctionnaires de la Ville et des dirigeants de la PPO et du Service de police d’Ottawa ont témoigné que certains membres des Farfadaas et les véhicules qu’ils conduisaient étaient situés à l’intersection de Rideau et Sussex. Est-ce que ça vous dit quelque chose?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors ,je vais juste vous montrer des documents qui vont peut-être rafraichir votre mémoire. Alors, Monsieur le greffier, est-ce qu’on pourrait, s’il vous plait, montrer OPP-823.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, that was OPP-823, if we can go to page 2. Alors ici, ça dit: « The OPS has advised that members of Farfadaas are blocking major intersections in the vicinity of the blockade and are being uncooperative with the police. » Et ici, on parle de l’intersection de Rideau et Sussex. Est-ce que ça rafraichit votre mémoire?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Je veux juste vous montrer un autre document. Monsieur le greffier, c’est OPS-5886. That’s OPS- 5886. Peut-être si je vous expliquer où est Rideau et Sussex, c’est proche du… on appelle ça the War Memorial, alors c’est en face du Château Laurier, y’a une statue et the Tomb of the Unknows Soldier, c’est l’intersection là proche du centre d’achat Rideau.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, maybe we can actually bring up… oh no, that’s the right document. Thank you. Alors, si on… if we scroll down. Alors ici, ça dit : « Approximately 200 people scattered throughout different locations on Wellington, focal point of…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
…demonstrator…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. « …focal point of the demonstrator activity at Sussex and Rideau where a group known as Farfadaas from Québec has completely blocked intersection to vehicular traffic. Farfadaas group was uncooperative with police throughout the day. Organizers of the group indicated that they would open the intersection, if permitted, to move further up on Wellington towards Parliament Hill. Information passed on to PLT for further contact. » Quand ils font référence à l’organisateur du groupe, est-ce que c’est possible que c’était vous?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oui.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous avez parlé à la police à un certain moment donné à Ottawa — alors pas quand vous étiez au stationnement à Gatineau à Zibi —, à propos des emplacements des véhicules ou des camions que vous avez conduits à travers du pont Macdonald-Cartier?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, vos engagements avec la police étaient seulement avec la police municipale à Gatineau.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Et quand vous dites que vous avez parlé à la police de Gatineau quand vous étiez à Zibi, de quoi est-ce que vous avez parlé? Quelles étaient vos interactions avec ces policiers-là?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Est-ce que vous avez déjà entendu les noms Tom Marazzo, Keith Wilson, Ewa Shepiak et Tamara Lich?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous les connaissez personnellement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous leur avez… est-ce que vous avez communiqué avec eux durant le convoi?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, nous, on les… c’est un groupe qui est dans le contexte de cette enquête, on les connait, ce sont les organisateurs du convoi, et on a des preuves que, le 8 février, Tom Marazzo et Ewa Shepiak sont allés parler aux manifestants du Québec qui étaient sur la rue Wellington au coin de Rideau-Sussex pour leur demander de déplacer les véhicules. Est-ce que vous êtes… est-ce que vous vous souvenez de cet évènement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La même journée, vous avez mis un vidéo en ligne et vous avez dit — alors, ça, c’est encore le 8 février —, et vous avez dit : « Vous seriez gentils de nous aider à aider ces 42 truckers qui sont parqués drette devant le Parlement. Si eux autres s’en vont, le siège est en danger. » Est-ce que vous vous souvenez de ce vidéo-là? Et de quoi, de quel évènement est-ce que vous parliez ici?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, ce vidéo-là n’avait pas rapport avec l’évènement qui… avec Tom Marazzo et avec Chipiuk.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces 42 truckers-là, ils venaient d’où?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous savez de quelle région du Québec?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et comment est-ce que vous avez été mis en contact avec eux?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
En termes de financement.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis alors, vous aviez accès à du financement. Est-ce que ça, c’était à travers des dons, des membres ou des Canadiens? Pouvez-vous juste nous expliquer un peu d’où ça venait.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis les gens démunis, vous avez mentionné, est-ce qu’ils vous contactaient à travers de Facebook ou… c’était qui, ces gens-là essentiellement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quand vous dites vous les avez nourris, comment est-ce que ça se passait exactement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous personnellement, qu’est-ce que vous faisiez de jour à jour durant le convoi? Est- ce que vous alliez à Ottawa à chaque jour? Vous restiez à Gatineau?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais je comprends que vous avez, vous, été membre…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quand vous dites que vous vous êtes engagé avec des médias, qu’est-ce que vous voulez dire?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces médias-là, c’est qui exactement? C’est quelle sorte de journal? C’est de réseaux sociaux, c’est des blogues?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Puis j’aimerais juste retourner au financement. Alors, le 4 février, je comprends que, initialement, les transferts électroniques, si les gens voulaient faire des dons, ça allait à votre compte à vous, mais le 4 février, ça, vous avez dirigé le monde de faire des dons à quelqu’un d’autre. Pouvez-vous juste nous expliquer le contexte de ça.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces personnes-là, ils font partie du mouvement Farfadets?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis, Monsieur le greffier, si on peut mettre à l’écran OPP-1767, puis ça va être à la page 33 — page 33. Alors, ce que je vous montre, c’est un rapport de renseignements de la PPO pour quelque chose qui s’appelle Project Hendon, c’était des rapports de renseignements qui avaient rapport au convoi. Alors ici, ça dit : « SPVG Intel advised that according to — et c’est rédacté — the Group Farfadaas has handed 14 000 to Quebec truckers in Ottawa in the last two days. He also mentioned that an additional $10,000 will be distributed to truckers today in Ottawa. » Est-ce que c’est exact?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et ça, c’était de l’argent que vous aviez reçu à travers des transferts électroniques ou des dons en monnaie?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Les deux.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, au total, vous avez redistribué environ 24 000 $.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Plus que ça. OK. Est-ce que vous vous souvenez du montant?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et cet argent-là été redistribué aux camionneurs et aux démunis, alors les gens de Gatineau et d’Ottawa qui vous contactaient parce qu’ils avaient… ils étaient en besoin.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
C’est ça?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Plus tôt aujourd’hui on a parlé de l’entente que vous aviez avec le propriétaire du stationnement de Zibi et vous avez mentionné l’injonction. Alors j’aimerais juste parler de ça pour le moment. Alors le propriétaire du stationnement du Zibi acceptait vos paiements et vous avez dit que c’était 100 $ par jour.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
1000 $ par jour, pardon. Et un moment donné, ce propriétaire là a arrêté d’accepter vos paiements et a déposé une demande d’injonction à la Cour supérieure du Québec. Pouvez-vous nous parler un peu de ceci ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis la plainte à la municipalité, c’était la Ville de Gatineau.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis les pompiers, ils vous disaient quoi quand ils venaient vous parler des questions de sécurité ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK alors, vous avez suivi ça, malgré ça, il y a eu une injonction.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La Cour a accueilli la demande d’injonction le 15 février.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et de ce que je comprends, vous vous êtes déplacé à la paroisse Notre-Dame-du-Saint- Rosaire, est-ce que c’est exact ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais je veux dire, le groupe qui était au stationnement de Zibi, où est-ce que vous avez… où est-ce que vous vous êtes déplacé après que l’injonction a été…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oui alors, je comprends que… oui, vous étiez en contact avec quelqu’un de la paroisse et c’était parce que depuis trois semaines il récupérait de la nourriture pour redistribuer à des organismes de charité à Gatineau.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous êtes restés dans ce stationnement-là une soirée et est-ce que vous êtes partis le 18 février ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Je ne suis pas sûre, mais je pense que… on a un document qui dit que vous êtes partis le 18 février.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors le 18 février, c’était quelques jours après que le gouvernement fédéral a invoqué la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence. C’était invoqué le 14 février.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et les mesures prises dans le cadre de cette loi, est-ce qu’elles ont eu des effets sur vous, personnellement ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que votre compte en banque a été gelé ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pouvez-vous nous parler…
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors votre compte, il y avait des restrictions qui étaient placées sur votre compte et ça, ça a duré vous avez dit mi-avril ou mi-mai.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis quel impact est-ce que ça a eu sur votre habileté de… d’utiliser votre argent ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors quand votre compte est fermé par la Banque Nationale, mi-avril ou mi-mai, la seule raison qu’ils vous ont donnée c’était à cause de votre participation au Convoi de la liberté.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Que eux, leur compte bancaire a été fermé en permanence.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que c’était mi-avril ou mi-mai aussi, ou est-ce que c’était au mois de février ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis là, je comprends que vous êtes retourné chez vous le 18, et là vous êtes retourné à Vankleek Hill et vous vous êtes fait arrêter par la police. Est- ce que c’est exact ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quels sont vos chefs d’accusation ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et est-ce que… vous nous avez dit plus tôt que c’est la première fois en effet, que vous vous êtes fait arrêter par la police.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quel impact est-ce que ça a eu sur votre vie ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit 23 jours, vous avez passé 23 jours en prison.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous avez autre chose à ajouter sur l’impact de la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence, avant que je vous demande d’autres questions ?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, j’ai presque fini mon temps, alors juste vous demander deux questions rapidement. Est-ce que vous avez été en contact ou communication avec des manifestants ou organisateurs impliqués dans les manifestations, des blocages à des portes d’entrées? Alors, il y avait Coutts, en Alberta, Emerson au Manitoba et Windsor, le pont Ambassador.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, monsieur Charland, ça c'est la fin de mes questions. Est-ce qu’il y a quelque chose que vous aimeriez dire aux commissaires, que vous pensez que vous n’avez pas eu la chance de dire aujourd'hui.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci monsieur Charland. Et merci pour votre temps aujourd'hui. Alors, c'est la fin de mes questions. Mes amis, mes confrères, mes consœurs vont avoir des questions pour vous. Alors je leur passe la parole. Merci!
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Aucune question, Monsieur le Commissaire. Merci.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
For the record, Alexandra Heine, Commission Counsel. Mr. Commissioner, the first thing I’d like to do is pass over to my friend, Martin Rejman, who is Mr. Van Huigenbos’ lawyer, who has an objection to make.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. Clerk, I’ll start with asking you to pull up Mr. Van Huigenbos’ Statement of Anticipated Evidence, which is SAE00000003. So this is the Statement of Anticipated Evidence that we sent you a few months ago for your review; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And have you had a chance to review this statement?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you like to make any amendments to it?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So, Mr. Huigenbos, you’re originally from Holland; is that correct?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when did you move to Canada?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you currently live in Fort Macleod in Alberta; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what do you do for a living?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so you were a City Councillor for Fort Macleod of the Freedom Convoy protests in January and February 2022; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I understand that you participated in the protest activities that occurred in Coutts, Alberta; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
In your Statement of Anticipated Evidence, you said that the protest commenced as a slow-roll convoy on January 29th and that you joined on that day; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What motivated you to join?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
When you “the border mandates”, you mean the trucker vaccination requirements?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And different slow rolls converged in Lethbridge, I understand, on January 29th and you were planning on driving from there to Coutts; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so you met up with this convoy in Lethbridge in your own vehicle?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
That was a semi truck, pick-up truck?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you also said in your Statement of Anticipated Evidence that participants generally understood through social media posts that the plan was to converge on Highway 4 and then drive down to Coutts. And which social media posts were you specially talking about?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up ALB00001677. And so just by way of background, this is an email exchanged dated January 26th between a CBSA official and a Government of Alberta official. Mr. Clerk, can we just scroll down a little bit. That -- a little bit more -- perfect. And so Mr. McAuley from the Government of Alberta says that the CBSA -- to the CBSA official that there is online activity regarding a January 29th convoy to Coutts associated with the broader trucker protesters, understanding that that means the convoy to Ottawa, and he links a website entitled “Freedom Fighter Nation” and a Facebook group for the “Lethbridge Freedom Central”; do you see that there?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to learn about the convoy through either of these websites?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And if we can just scroll down to page 2, I’m just going to show you a flyer, and this was shared by, I believe, Lethbridge Freedom Central. So when you were seeing some of your friends sharing on Facebook about this event, were you seeing this flyer?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was it your understanding that the plan was just to slow roll down to Coutts from Lethbridge and then go home, or was the plan always to blockade the port of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So when you say you knew when there were 5,000 vehicles, how were you aware that there were 5,000 vehicles on the highway?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I think, for the record, actually, the CBSA, in their Institutional Report, said there were 1,000 vehicles.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, thank you. And we’re going to stay on this document, Mr. Clerk, if we could just go down to page 3. So this is a flyer that was posted on one of the websites linked by the CBSA official, and it says: "Lockdown Coutts border. Trucks and vehicles all over Alberta planning to head for Coutts, AB, starting January 29 and staying there until all mandates and restrictions are lifted." Do you see that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
It also says: "Calling all semis, trucks, SUVs, cars! Meeting point: Flying J, Lethbridge…" -- which you referenced earlier -- "…5:00 a.m. Border shutdown! On this day the Albertans hold the line to take back our given freedoms. Do not budge. Do not move. Do not surrender." Did you ever see this flyer?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So was it your personal intention to block the border and not give up until all the mandates and restrictions were lifted as is stated in this flyer?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you would agree, based on this flyer, that it was some people’s intention at least?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you drove down to Coutts on January 29th, and because this is -- you’re the first protester -- or, sorry, the first witness to speak to Coutts and not everyone, like us, is from Alberta, were just going to pull up the Coutts protest map, which is an interactive map, and I’m just going to show, for the public and the Commissioner’s benefit, the route from Lethbridge down Highway 4, all the way to Coutts. So do you see that there?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And this is the route that you took?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you converged in Lethbridge and then the general convoy drove down to Coutts?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so we expect to hear evidence from the Mayor of Coutts that he observed the RCMP escorting the convoy to the eventual location of the blockade, the intersection with Highway 500, 1.3 kilometres before the border crossing; would you agree with that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you’re not aware that the RCMP was escorting the convoy at all?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if, Mr. Clerk, we could then click on “Coutts U-turn” and unclick “directions”, thank you. And then we’ll just Zoom into Coutts, so just for the benefit of the public, Commissioner, just to see sort of what the Coutts Village and the port of entry look like. So I understand that some vehicles, when they got down to Coutts -- and if we could just zoom in a little bit more -- made a U-turn at the point that’s the blue point on the corner of Highway 500 and Highway 4; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So some vehicles did a U-turn and drove back out, but others, I understand, stayed in Coutts and parked there; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say a scale house, you mean to weigh trucks that are going through the port of entry; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the staging area that you referenced, is that sort of on or around the yellow point, which I understand designates where the protestors were predominately located?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The green points? So that’s the Smuggler's Saloon?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And for the benefit of everyone here, could you just describe where some of the semi trucks that were part of the convoy ended up in relation to the yellow and green points, so between sort of where the -- I guess that’s the northbound lane and the Smuggler's Saloon?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
When -- on January 29th. We're still on January 29th.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
After traffic had arrived.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so were there semis, pickups, sort of piled up right there that was causing this traffic jam from Coutts to Milk River?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What did that look like?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And where were you at this time?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you sort of parked your pickup truck and you were wandering on foot or were you in your vehicle, stopped?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to move forward then to January 31st. So by January 31st, I understand that some vehicles had left Coutts and either had returned home or gone further up Highway 4. And I'm referring - - or I'm getting this information from the CBSA Institutional Report that said that there were 176 vehicles sort of left around that time. Does that accord with your recollection?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So the rest of the 1,000 vehicles had pretty much gone, gone home?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Well, right, but we did establish earlier that it might have been some people's intentions to remain, some of those people making up the 176 vehicles ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- that stayed behind. Right. So Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up PBS.CAN00002473? And so this is an email from the Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki, to the Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino; the Deputy Minister of Public Safety at the time was Rob Stewart; and the President of the CBSA, who at the time, was John Ossowski.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, I apologize.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Commissioner. And the date here is January 31st. Do you see that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And if we just scroll down a little bit, a little bit more -- so at the bottom of the page, you see that point right there that says, "Highway 4", so that’s the third point down under "Current Status". So it says: "Highway 4 to and from the Canadian side of the border crossing at Coutts, Alberta, remains completely blocked. The blockade, primarily the semi truck blocking the northbound lane with smaller truck reinforcements, is being controlled by splinter groups. The organizers of the Coutts protest are distancing themselves from the splinter groups." She then said that: "The RCMP's consultative conflict management group which is the RCMP's equivalent of a police liaison team continues to engage protest participants; however, the engagement from the organizers has diminished and the splinter groups have not been receptive." Do you see that there?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so at this point, had you established yourself as a spokesperson for the protesters? This is on January 31st.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know who she's talking about when she says "organizers"?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
That’s your previous pages meaning that email that we saw with the two links to the website and the Facebook group; is that what you mean?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So Lethbridge Freedom Central and the other website? So at this point, you -- I understand that you had communications with the police and specifically, CCMG officers later on? And we'll get to that in a minute, but at this point, on January 31st, had you had any contact with the RCMP's CM -- CCMG officers?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But it wasn’t as though you were engaging with the RCMP on behalf of the protesters?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So because it was, like, an organic protest, sort of a grass roots movement with different people from all over Alberta, when she says "splinter groups", you also don’t know what she's referring to?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let's then move to the next day, which is February 1st, and also February 2nd. So at this point, had the RCMP set up checkpoints on Highway 4 as well as Highway 500, which is the highway that we saw earlier with the map?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know when the RCMP set up those checkpoints?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Later in the day on February 1st?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The 30th.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. Clerk, I'll just ask that you zoom out on this map, just so that everyone can see when we say checkpoints, we're referring to the points in red. Mr. Van Huigenbos, does this accord with your recollection of where the checkpoints established by the RCMP were?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So there were some protestors still in Coutts. And if we zoom in, Mr. Clerk, to the point at the top near Milk River where there's a yellow and a red. So this is a checkpoint by the RCMP in red. Were you ever aware of this checkpoint?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it was your recollection that this was sort of one of the first or the main checkpoints that was established?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What about one of the main checkpoints?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
It is the main checkpoint?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And you just alluded to this, but this checkpoint had the effect of having sort of a buildup of traffic that led to a second location of protestors, which is identified by the yellow point. If you could please sort of walk us through how that happened and what that looked like from your perspective?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So there's a Milk River protest, Milk River blockade around that checkpoint, which is checkpoint 10, for the record, and there was a secondary location in Coutts, but the idea is that the Milk River protestors were there because they wanted to get to Coutts to join ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you were personally located in Coutts at this time; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so we're still on February 1st and 2nd. I understand, and you'll provide more clarity on this, that some protestors got around checkpoint 10 using either tractors or other vehicles to get to Coutts and this led to an enforcement effort by the RCMP. Could you please describe what that looked like, what that event was from your point of view?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sure. Yeah, Mr. Clerk, we could go down to -- back down to Coutts.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say the Milk River protestors could see the enforcement action that the RCMP was doing in Coutts, which prompted them to try and sort of go around the barricade to join up, you mean through social media; right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
They didn't have line of -- -
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- sight themselves?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that's because the Milk River blockade was about 20 kilometres north of the Coutts port of entry; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so I understand that then on February 2nd this sort of all came to a head and there was a bit of a standoff you could call it between the protesters and the RCMP. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what did that look like?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And part of the resolution of this, I understand, is that two RCMP sergeants, I believe Sergeants Tellock (ph) and Switzer, who are CCMG officers, came to the Smuggler Saloon to speak with the protesters and see if they could sort of negotiate a resolution; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And just for clarity, when you say Greg and Troy you mean Greg Tellock and Troy Switzer.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And -- but you were still able to resolve, I understand, that you would keep one lane open in the northbound lanes and then one traffic lane open in the southbound lane. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You mean commercial vehicles that were not protesters?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So like January 31st?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that from then that point forward you sort of became the main point of contact for the RCMP. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you say you had a good relationship with the RCMP officers that you spoke to?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you texted, you called, was it through email? How did you communicate?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that some officers also came to the Smuggler Saloon, which had sort of been established by the headquarters by that point, to sort of do check-ins with you. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The in-person interaction.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I understand -- we’ll just touch on this very briefly -- that there was only one time where communications between you and the RCMP officers failed, and that was on February 12th when you were out of contact or you didn’t have cell service, and some excavators were damaged by the police by accident. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll come back to the first week.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But just for the purpose of the excavator event, if you could just speak to that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just -- for those who don’t know what an excavator is, just describe what that is, briefly.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so there were a few, and they were flying flags, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
I believe so. And I think, just for the sake of time, maybe if we could fast forward a little bit ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- to the actual event.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that’s because the RCMP thought the excavators were ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Correct.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right, okay. And in the course of your action -- or your answer, sorry, you spoke a few times about engagement from the provincial government, and that’s something that you were looking for, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So I don’t mean to cut you off, but we do need to get to this document. So Mr. Clerk, it’s COU00000016. And while Mr. Clerk is pulling that up, this is a text message exchange between the Mayor of Coutts and Rajan Sawhney, who’s the Minister of Transport of Alberta. And I’ll just wait for that to go up. So if we go to page 9, a little bit further down. All right. So it says that “MP Motz” -- and I understand that to be Glen Motz, Member of Parliament, “Mayor” -- and then it’s redacted -- “and I” -- being the Mayor of Coutts, so the blue bubble are from the Mayor of Coutts: “...met with RCMP command...then paid a visit to the truckers for a few minutes.” And then he goes on to say: “Motz met with Marco up at the Milk River blockade. The message we are all pushing is clear the road enough to be breaking the law and protest all you want. Consistent messaging is very important. Still missing a provincial government voice.” So did you meet with MP Glen Motz in Milk River at some point?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you discuss federal mandates?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, I think that’s probably right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. So February 5th: “Still missing a provincial government voice.” Then we have an answer by the Minister of Transportation, Rajan Sawhney, who says: “Hi Jim! Are there [any] MLA’s out there?” And then, Mr. Clerk, if we could just scroll down? “Haven’t seen any although Grant says he has been off and on all week.” So I take this to mean Grant Hunter, who is an MLA in Alberta. Is that correct?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- sit down with him at all?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that was about the mandates?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I guess when I say you’re talking about mandates, was the idea that you were asking them whether they could do anything to sort of lift the mandates, which would have resulted in the protest resolving itself?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
They never got started with?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you spoke to members of the opposition, MLAs, but not anyone who was, like, for example, in Premier Kenney’s Cabinet? No one like that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. The Minister of Transport never went down, so we know that. But if we could scroll down to page 11? The bottom of page 11. So this is on February 6th, which is the next day. And the Mayor of Coutts says to the Minister of Transportation: “I’m trying to find out who protestors spoke with and said what. Grant [said] it wasn’t him, very clear he has [no -- he means no mandate, as he clarifies in the next text] that would allow him to do that.” So it seems to suggest that someone else from the Provincial Government, other than Grant Hunter, had spoken to the protestors in an official capacity on February 6th. So you’re saying that did not happen?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you yourself did not have ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, so you’re saying you did speak on the phone to Rajan Sawhney?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oh, so what was that in relation to?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
In relation to the protests?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what were your conversations about?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Through the Minister?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But she reached out to you?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you said you spoke to her on the phone on about two occasions. Do you recall the dates of those?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever convey to her that you wanted the provincial mandates lifted in order for the protestors to then go home?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you conveyed that message. What was her response?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did she say that she would speak to Premier Kenney in an unofficial capacity through unofficial channels or anything like that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, you said there were follow up ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You say that it never went anywhere, but Premier Kenney did make an announcement on February 8th that the Provincial Government was announcing a plan for a gradual easing of the pandemic related public health measures; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what was his message and what was the message you were looking for?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
All right. And you said earlier that, you know, you understand that there’s a process that has to -- you know, governmental process for public health measures like these to be lifted, and that it would maybe take some time. So in your view, was it realistic for Premier Kenney to announce on February 8th, for example, that all mandates would be lifted the next day? Was that a realistic objective?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So it's fair to say that you were looking for a stronger commitment from Jason Kenney and you -- Premier Kenney, apologies, and you didn't get one; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we're almost out of time here, so I'm just going to ask you some quick questions about the events of February 13th and 14th. So I understand that an RCMP tactical unit came in on February 13th, and there were also some arrests on that day in relation to guns and ammunition that were seized at a house in Coutts; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And they arrested many people in relation to this. Did you know any of the individuals who were arrested for mischief and possession of a weapon?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You did not know them before?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what about the individuals that were arrested for conspiracy to commit murder?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you say that you spoke to them every day? How well did you know these individuals?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- are you talking about Chris Lysak?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So did you know that Chris Lysak was in a group called -- or was a fan of a group called Diagolon?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever heard of that group before?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you're not a fan or a follower of Diagolon?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever speak to Jeremy MacKenzie, who's one of the founders of Diagolon?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you know that there were firearms amongst the protesters?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever heard of this plot to shoot RCMP officers, that they're being alleged to have, I guess, planned?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Were your bank accounts frozen when the Emergencies Act was invoked?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But I understand that you were recently arrested?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you've not -- you have been charged though?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And that's for a mischief?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So that was in relation to the Coutts' protest, but it was not -- it was recent and so it wasn't, like, an Emergency Act measure, I guess.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I just have about one minute left, so I'll just ask you to tell the Commissioner quickly what happened on the morning of February 15th. So how did the protest end after the arrests that we just discussed were finished?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
At the ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Fifteen (15).
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the timing of that is important, so I thank ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- you for clarifying that. So noon on the 14th you communicate to the RCMP. You agree to leave.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you told them ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you told them, "Listen, we need some more time to clean everything up and to leave as a group and we'll leave by tomorrow morning."
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So those are all my questions. Is there anything that you'd like to tell the Commissioner that we haven't covered together?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you for your time and for answering my questions. I am going to pass it over to my friends who will have questions for you now.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Just one quick question -- or is this on, yeah -- by way of clean up. I showed you at the beginning your statement of anticipated evidence. That was, for the record, FAE00000003, and I forgot to ask you whether you adopt that statement. So Mr. Van Huigenbos, do you adopt that statement ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- as it was? Okay, thank you. Those are all my questions.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The next witness is Mr. John Ossowski.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Morning.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Ms. Ossowski. Nice to see you again. My name is Alexandra Heine. I'm Commission Counsel, and I'll be doing your examination today. And at the end, my colleague, Gord Cameron, will have a few questions for you. So we're just going to start by pulling up your witness statement, which, Mr. Clerk, is WTS00000046. Thank you. So you recall that you participated in an interview with Commission Counsel in anticipation of your appearance here today on August 24th?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And three of your colleagues, Christine Derosiers, Scott Harris and Ted Gallivan, who are not here today, were also interviewed; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I would ask you to confirm that you've reviewed the summary of that interview, and if you have no changes to make, confirm that insofar as it contains your information, it is accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief and you adopt it, and insofar as it contains information from your colleagues, you believe that information to have been reviewed and accepted as accurate by your colleagues?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So, Mr. Clerk, if we could also pull up DOJ-IR0000006? So, Mr. Ossowski, your department prepared and filed with the Commission this institutional report. Have you reviewed this document?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And is it accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Can you confirm that CBSA has filed this institutional report as part of its evidence before the Commission?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So at the time of the Freedom Convoy events, you were the President of the CBSA; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the CBSA is the Canada Border Services Agency?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you left that role in June of 2022 I understand?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. You're retired now. And CBSA manages 117 land border crossings, 22 of which are commercial ports of entry; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And amongst other things, CBSA is responsible for administering and enforcing legislation that governs the admissibility of people and goods in and out of Canada ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. It also identifies detaining and removing people who are inadmissible to Canada?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And ensure compliance with Canadian laws in the border-related context?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And it also protects food and safety, plant and animal health, and Canada's resource base; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And Border Services officers, which are sometimes called BSOs, carry out some of those responsibilities; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And BSOs have regulatory authorities under the Quarantine Act, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Customs Act; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And I understand that BSOs don't have authorities beyond sort of the confines of ports of entry or CBSA property; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So they wouldn't have the power or authority to conduct an arrest, for example, outside of the port of entry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But otherwise ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so accordingly, the CBSA doesn't typically intervene in activities that occurs outside of its port of entry and its property; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So in the case of the convoy, the CBSA did not intervene directly in the protest and blockades because they happened near the ports of entry and not on the ports of entry's property; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So on that note, I'll take you through the convoy, and the way I'm going to structure this is I'm going to start by asking you questions about CBSA's response to the convoy and specific blockades, and then I'm going to ask you more specifically later in the examination about your roles and responsibilities during the convoy. Thank you. So we'll start with CBSA's response to the convoy. I understand that on January 25th -- sorry, January 15th, there were certain Order in Council provisions that had previously allowed foreign national truckers to enter Canada unvaccinated that expired; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And on the same day, Canadian unvaccinated commercial truckers entering Canada became subject to testing and quarantine requirements for which they had previously been exempt?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So this caused the sporadic protest activities and ultimately the movement that we know as the Freedom Convoy; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And CBSA had intelligence, mostly open source intelligence, that there were going to be some blockades near ports of entry sometime in late January; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And that slow roll did not become a blockade; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. That came later?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And in response to sort of this intelligence, CBSA put into place a contingency plan. Did you have any involvement in that?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But you knew about it?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that was on January 28th, I believe; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Amongst other things, I don't think we need to pull it up, I'll just note for the record that it's PB.NSC.CAN.9523, but it identified the safety and security of CBSA employees as its top priority. Is that consistent with your recollection?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And it also provided regions and headquarters with high-level contingency awareness and guidance on CBSA’s operational posture?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And it also set out a process whereby BOC, which is the Border Operations Centre, would provide situational reports twice a day. Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And my colleague, Gord Cameron, is going to touch on that, so he’ll pick it up later, but I understand that CBSA, in addition to the contingency plan, also implemented different port hardening measures?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Can you describe what those measures were?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And cameras, you mean CCTV, ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- like surveillance footage? Okay. And I understand that BSOs were also instructed, and that’s, again, border services officers, BSOs, were instructed to refer foreign nationals entering Canada for the purpose of participating in protests to secondary for confirmation of their eligibility to enter Canada? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Enhanced Vigilance Exam. And can you explain what sending somebody to secondary means?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if a BSO suspected that somebody wanted to come into Canada to participate in the protest, they would send them to secondary?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And BSOs were also instructed to closely examine those travellers to ensure -- and travellers generally, to ensure the requirements issued by the Public Health Agency of Canada under the Quarantine Act were met by the individuals entering Canada? Is that also right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So that would involve questions about sort of, you know, their vaccination status, testing for covid? Things like that?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So I’ll take you to January 29th, which is when the Coutts blockade started. So that was sort of the first major blockade? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And understanding that there was sporadic protest activities, so specifically slow roll convoys at other ports of entry in late January/early February, I understand that the next major blockade happened at the Bluewater Bridge, which is in Sarnia in Ontario, on February 6th. Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that blockade dispersed on February 8th?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And then the next major blockade happened in Windsor on February 7th? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that’s when CBSA issued its first border alert?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Which advised people that the Ambassador Bridge Port of Entry was experiencing delays? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And specifically experiencing service disruptions?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So could you explain, first, what’s a border alert and what is, second, what is a service disruption, as opposed to a service suspension and a closure of a port of entry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And a port of entry closure, I understand, doesn’t happen very often? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And in what circumstances would that happen?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And we’ll get to that. But a service suspension, what does that look like on the ground?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. It’s sort of a skeleton crew that’s sort of at the port of entry just ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And maybe let’s pull up the Institutional Report. And that’s DOJ.IR.00000006. And Mr. Clerk, if we could go to page 32, please? All right. So this is a chart that sets out the service disruptions and suspensions that occurred sort of at the major ports of entry during the convoy? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And we see that there was a service disruption, as I mentioned earlier, issued on February 7th for Ambassador Bridge?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the next service disruption was issued on February -- sorry, service suspension was issued on February 12th? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And there was also a service disruption at Coutts on February 10th as well? Sorry, -- -
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- Emerson. Thank you. And on February 12th, if we just scroll down a bit, there was also a service disruption issued for the Pacific Highway Port of Entry, which is in B.C.? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So there’s a total of three disruptions and one suspension at those ports of entry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Were any other service disruptions or suspensions issued for any other ports of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Can you walk us through, generally, in terms of border wait times and the like? What were the impacts on these main blockades? The impacts of the blockades on these main ports of entry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so let’s go to Coutts in terms of specifics. So as you mentioned, there’s some commercial ports of entry neighbouring Coutts in Saskatchewan and B.C., but I understand that those are eight -- around eight hours away from Coutts? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And those are North Portal in Saskatchewan, or Regway, and Roosville in B.C. or Kingsgate? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I think you can just take my word for it.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so the CBSA, I understand, in response to the convoy, and because those alternative commercial ports of entry were so far away, they identified Del Bonita and Carway, which are two ports of entry that are closer to Coutts, much closer, Del Bonita is about 50 minutes away and Carway is about an hour and a half away, as potential alternative ports of entry. But as you noted, they were not outfitted to necessarily process commercial traffic? Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And they don’t have infrastructure either, like Canada Food Inspection Agency set up there?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And no USDA veterinary services for livestock.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so, I understand that in response to these obstacles, Brad Wozny, who is your colleague -- was your colleague, and he’s the Regional Director of the Prairie Region, which captures both Manitoba and Alberta, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Regional Director General, thank you. And so he worked with the RCMP, which was the local police of jurisdiction in Coutts, the US Custom Border Protection Services, and CFIA, so that’s the Canada Food Inspection Agency, and the US Department of Agriculture, to facilitate the movement of commercial traffic through those alternative ports of entry.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So that’s specifically Del Bonita and Carway. And as he explained in his witness summary, which for the record it’s WTS000000044, they arrange for traffic moving southbound, so that’s going from Canada into the US, to effectively move across to Sweet Grass, Montana, which is located South of Coutts, and access a USDA Inspection Services there, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so then they would be able to, sort of, divert the traffic in that manner. And then the northbound vehicles, so those going from the US into Canada, would drive up to Sweet Grass, and they were inspected by CFIA, and their loads were sealed, and then they would move across to Del Bonita and enter Canada in that way.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I understand that there were impacts to the Coutts port of entry all the way until February, around February 13th, where there was some enforcement action by the RCMP, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And can you explain sort of what that enforcement action entailed?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And there were guns and ammunitions that were seized?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the rest of the protesters that were remaining agreed to leave sometime midday, or in the afternoon of February 14th, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And if we can pull up, Mr. Clerk, PBCAN1385. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. Ossowski, this is an email that you sent to Minister Mendicino, who’s the Minister of Public Safety, on February 15th, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you advised him that protestors were leaving Coutts as of 3:00 p.m. on February 14th?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that around 8:30 p.m., the CBSA was advised that the RCMP had removed the conveyances blocking the lanes and had been able to secure the area, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you also advised Minister Mendicino that the CBSA was in a position to open the Coutts POE on the next day.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry; on that day, on February 15th.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so we’ll move on to Ambassador Bridge. So Ambassador Bridge, the blockades start on February 7, and a service disruption was issued on that day. And then if we can pull up the Institutional Report again, Mr. Clerk, so DOJIR00000006. And if we could go to page 38, please? So this is a chart that was provided to us by the CBSA that shows the commercial conveyances volume from January 15th to February 25th at the Ambassador Bridge, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Can you walk us through the chart, sort of from February 8th to February 13th, and just explain to us what those numbers mean?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And then if we go to February 13th, for example, we see that there’s zero commercial conveyances that passed on that day?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so, Mr. Clerk, if we could just scroll down. So traffic -- yes, keep going. Thank you. So traffic from the Ambassador Bridge was diverted to Blue Water Bridge, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Which is approximately two hours away from the Ambassador Bridge?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And, also, traffic was diverted to Queenston?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Which is further; I believe it’s four hours away, is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it was also diverted to the Peace Bridge, which is about four hours and 30 minutes away, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so if we look at this chart again, we see that from February 7th to February 13th, which were the days that the blockade was impacting on the Ambassador Bridge, we see that Blue Water Bridge has sort of absorbed the traffic that would’ve normally gone through Ambassador Bridge; is that fair?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the other part would have presumably gone through Peace Bridge which, if we scroll down, we see that Peace Bridge also has an elevated amount of commercial conveyances on those days.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And there was also some traffic that was absorbed by Queenston.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So was CBSA tracking what happened to those commercial vehicles?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
They weren’t -- no? Okay.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So, it’s possible that those vehicles went home; it’s also possible that they entered in a different manner?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So is it fair to say that most of the commercial vehicle traffic was successfully diverted to neighbouring ports of entry, but not all of it?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what about at other ports of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, it’s fair to say that southern Ontario, the commercial traffic was diverted slightly less successfully than some of the other ports of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But the other ports of entries were able to successfully divert commercial traffic, largely.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And so in Emerson I understand that there were five days where traffic was largely not getting through, and that was from February 12th to the 15th, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry; I guess that’s four days. Yes. And traffic was redirected to two neighbouring ports of entry, which were Tolstoi and Gretna, is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And your colleague, Brad Wozny -- Emerson falls also within his region -- explained that although those two ports of entry, so Tolstoi and Gretna, were not equipped to process large volumes of commercial traffic, his knowledge was that all vehicles carrying commercial goods were diverted -- that were diverted made it across the border; is that consistent with your recollection?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But Brad Wozny, Regional Director -- Regional General Director Wozny was able to work with the US authorities and with the Canadian authorities to outfit those neighbouring ports of entry so they would be able to process some of those commercial vehicles.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So a resource diversion ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- basically? Right. And lastly, the other main port of entry where a blockade happened was Pacific Highway. We touched on that briefly, but I understand -- and this is from your colleague, Nina Patel, who's the Regional General Director of the Pacific Division, or the Pacific Region.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And in her interview summary, which we don't need to pull, but for the record it's WTS00000045, traffic was rerouted from Pacific Highway on February 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And it was -- they were redirected to the neighbouring ports of entry of Aldergrove, which is about 20 kilometres away from Pacific Highway?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And Huntington, which is about 40 kilometres away?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that Aldergrove and Huntington are commercial ports of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
I think your colleague, Nina Patel, said that they were. They just didn't have the same commercial vehicle capacity as ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- Pacific Highway.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Exactly.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, that's exactly right. So in the email that we showed you earlier, which we don't need to pull up again, but it was the email where you advised Minister Mendocino in regards to the Coutts port of entry; do you recall that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you also advised him that at 11:05 p.m. local time on February 14th, the RCMP had successfully cleared and opened north and southbound roads at the Pacific Highway for the resumption of traffic; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so the traffic flow had resumed and there were very few protesters remaining on site, which is what you advised him of?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And so you've mentioned that when traffic is diverted, there's an increase in border wait times, truckers have to drive longer to get to their destinations. In the case of Ambassador Bridge -- thank you -- in the case of Ambassador Bridge, there were some impacts on supply chains?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And there was a significant, or a specific impact on the automobile industry; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the Ambassador Bridge blockade was cleared up on February 13th as a result of enforcement action; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. You reopened on February 14th, but because the protesters had cleared on February 13th?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Overall, would you say that the CBSA responded well to these blockades?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And CBSA took -- you'd say took active steps to mitigate the impacts?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And it staffed alternative ports of entry as well?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And as we talked about earlier, CBSA was able to successfully divert much of the commercial traffic, not all of it, especially at Ambassador Bridge, but a lot of it, due to the steps that it took?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to now turn to your role specifically during the convoy. So as President of the CBSA, you were first in command; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you reported to Cabinet?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that's because CBSA falls within the general umbrella of Public Safety; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
To the Minister, you mean Minister Mendocino?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And Deputy heads, you mean of the agencies that fall within Public Safety's mandate?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. How did you report to him? So was it oral briefings, written briefings?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And how often?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
A few times a day?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And your second in command was your Executive Vice-President who at the time was Ted Gallivan?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So I understand that you attended meetings throughout with officials and at the political level?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You attended Deputy Minister Committee on Operational Coordination meetings and ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- we refer to ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- the DMOCCs. Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And sometimes, I understand, you've sent Mr. Gallivan as your delegate to those meetings or ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you didn't attend all of those?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you also attended meetings of the Cabinet Committee on Safety, Security and Emergencies; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And we refer to that as the SSE.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so there were three meetings, the 3rd, the 6th and the 8th. Did you attend all of those meetings?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
I think you attended the 3rd and the 6th and Mr. Gallivan attended the 8th. Does that refresh your memory?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you also attended meetings of the Incident Response Group?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And those occurred on the 10th, 12th and 13th, and then every day from the 15th to the 23rd, I understand?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall whether you attended all of those meetings or only some?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if you weren't at one of those meetings, you would have sent your delegate, I assume?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you also attended some of the FPTCPPC meetings, which is the Federal Provincial Territorial Crime Prevention and Policing Committee; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm actually going to take you to a read out of that committees -- one of the meetings of that committee, which happened on February 7th. So that's SAS0000000012, Mr. Clerk, please? And if we go down to page 2? So we see that you gave an update here, "...major commercial vehicle traffic [in Alberta]. One lane open [...]. Still protesters there, but allowing through." Presumably allowing some traffic through. And, "Normally double. Other area is ambassador bridge, blocking in Windsor/Detroit area, major port of entry. Blocked. Is a police of jurisdiction issue, working with POJ to share intel but comes down to enforcement. Ready to work with PT partners to share what we know. Will continue to work with them." Do you recall this?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Is this the type of update that you would have typically provided at these meetings?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And if we go down to page 3, keep going, keep going -- it might be a bit lower. Keep going. Keep going. There we go. Sorry, page 4. So you say, "Issue is large trucks, tow trucks and cannot compel drivers. Emergencies Acts could be used to compel." So we've heard a lot of evidence throughout this inquiry that there was an issue procuring tow trucks, and that one of the powers that the Emergencies Act provided was for people -- or the police would be able to compel those tow truck drivers to assist. So this is on February 7th. Were you -- does this mean that you were contemplating the use of the Emergencies Act as early as February 7th?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And your understanding with that provincial emergency powers could be used to compel tow trucks?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say "Alberta might have had that power", what do you mean by that?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Is that the Critical Infrastructure ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Their provincial emergency?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And your understanding was that other provinces may or may not have had?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Was there ever any follow up on that?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Well, we can discuss it now. So I understand that effectively, CBSA's role could have been not the procurement of tow trucks, but facilitating immigration for those tow trucks to come assist; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And did you provide that assistance for any of the ports of entry?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And how -- do you recall if tow trucks actually came over the bridge?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Any other ports of entry?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
All right. So Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up SSM.NSC.CAN00000214? While Mr. Clerk is pulling that up, Mr. Ossowski, this is the meeting minutes from the February 12th IRG meeting, which you attended?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Clerk, it's on page 6, please. And keep going down. Sorry, page 7. So we see here at the bottom that it says: "The prime minister asked for an update on other POEs and what is being done to prevent further disruptions. The minister of public safety and president of CBSA --- " --- that was you --- "--- confirmed that there is real-time reporting in all critical POEs and ongoing engagement with local law enforcement. If an authority or asset gap is identified, departments remain ready to respond. Currently, it remains only three blocked POEs. There was an attempt to block the Pacific Highway, but police successfully thwarted this attempt." So I have a couple of questions about this. What was meant by "if an authority or asset gap is identified, departments remain ready to respond"?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And when you say "Currently, it remains only the three blocked POEs" -- this is on February 12th, so which ports of entry are you referring to here?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And presumably Coutts?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So Emerson, Ambassador Bridge, Coutts.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right, thank you. And then if we can go to SSM.CAN.00000095? While that’s being brought up, Mr. Ossowski, this is the February 13th IRG meeting minutes.
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, we'll just go down to page 5. So the prime minister asked the minister of public safety to outline additional actions that could be taken by federal authorities to deal with and prevent further blockades. Do you recall this?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the minister of public safety explained that great progress had been made in clearing and securing the Ambassador Bridge, but that there was no definitive timeline for reopening?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And but as we established earlier, the Ambassador Bridge was reopened the next day?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And he also noted that enforcement actions were occurring in Coutts and Emerson. Do you recall this?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And lastly, that -- and we'll skip the part about Ottawa -- at the Blue Water Bridge crossing, the CBSA had also doubled its capacity for commercial vehicles, allowing carriers additional corridors for cross- border trade; is that right?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that was in response to the Ambassador Bridge blockade?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So that was the update that Minister Mendicino provided. Did you also contribute anything to this meeting?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when Minister Mendicino gives an update like this, is the information that he's conveying information that you have briefed him up on ---
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- in the context of your daily touching base?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And what kind of reports were those?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the Border Operations Centre Situational reports that we talked about earlier, those as well?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So those were sent to both Minister Mendicino's office and public safety?
-
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'd like to now ask you questions about the invocation of the Emergencies Act, and sorry, the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act. So earlier, we talked about how you and some of the other deputy ministers discussed alternative authorities that could be used; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And in one of your deputy minister briefing talking point packages, which I understand are binders prepared for you either for DMOCCs or IRGs; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
We don’t need to pull it up, but the reference for the record is SSM.NSC.CAN321. And so that briefing package said that the CBSA considered various avenues of deterrence so the NEXUS trusted trader status of a commercial driver, cancellation of FAST applications, and other options. This is not the first time that those options had been raised; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
It was not the first time or ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right, because this was February 13th, and if we go to February 10th, which actually, we will pull this one up. So this is an email from Mike Jones, who is Minister Mendicino's chief of staff; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
To Mike Maka from Transport, Samantha Khalil from PMO, and Zita, who is Bill Blair's chief of staff; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And she says: "I've received these enforcement options from CBSA which I've asked for more context around. I understand that it is part of a broader effort to provide options to the clerk. I'm tracking down from my side and Z is going to check in with the NSIA." So the clerk here would be the clerk of the Privy Council; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And then he goes on to list some of the options that we just talked about, so the Trusted Trader Program, Trusted Traveller Program, NEXUS, and others. Do you know whatever happened to those deterrent options that you put on the table?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Right. So the EMRs designated the ports of entry and the trade corridors as critical infrastructure?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And we won't pull it up, pursuant to section 6, made those exclusion zones. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So ultimately none of these options ever went anywhere?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Because of the Emergencies Act. I mean prior to the Emergencies Act.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you play a role in the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Can you elaborate on that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say "we identified" you mean you reported it to Cabinet?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But you were not asked for your advice on invoking the Emergencies Act ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- or directly for your input?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you never advised any of the Cabinet members whether they should or should not invoke the Emergencies Act?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so you just identified this legislative gap to Cabinet. And you've explained that the gap was that there was no authority to turn somebody away in relation to wanting to participate in a lawful protest; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the CBSA was concerned with this legislative gap in allowing foreign nationals to come into the country to participate in a peaceful protest?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And was it your understanding that many U.S. or foreign nationals were coming into the country to participate in the protest?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So they would go to secondary and be turned away because they didn't meet the requirements of the Quarantine Act, for example.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Did the CBSA consider whether they had the authority to turn away foreign nationals on the basis that they wanted to participate in an unlawful protest?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But the Immigration Refugee Protection Act would -- it does set out admissibility/inadmissibility ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- criteria; right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And if somebody went to the border and there was reasonable grounds or they were suspected to go -- wanted to be admitted to Canada to engage in unlawful activity, would that be sufficient basis to turn them away?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So the issue -- the legislative gap was specific to turning foreign nationals away who wanted to participate in a lawful, peaceful protest?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And -- so I guess what I'm getting at is it seems like the Immigration Refugee Protection Act would have already given the CBSA that power at the point in which the protests were deemed to have been unlawful.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What do you mean by that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But if there were reasonable grounds or there was a suspicion that that was there, and destination, then that would be a sufficient basis to turn them away?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And I mean, border services officers are trained to assess whether somebody is telling the truth or not?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So you talked briefly about how a lot of foreign nationals were turned away because they didn't meet the requirements under the Quarantine Act if they weren't vaccinated, for example, and my counsel -- my co-counsel will get into this further, so I'll leave that to him. But I guess my question is whether that was sufficient to attenuate CBSA's concerns that foreign nationals were entering to participate in the protest, the idea that they would most likely be turned away pursuant to the Quarantine Act requirements?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Okay, thank you. So I only have about five minutes left before I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Cameron, so I just want to pull up one last document. And that's, Mr. Clerk, COM00000670. So this is the government's section 58 explanation. Are you familiar with this document?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any role in drafting it?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So inputs, but you didn't hold the pen?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So if we go to page 7. Yeah, right there. So just a little bit up, just where it says, "In addition". So it says -- it describes two events where it's -- that occurred, one at the Pacific Highway port of entry, and one in Fort Erie, and it says that at those two locations: "...protesters had breached the confines of the CBSA plaza resulting in CBSA officers..."
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner: "...locking down the office to prevent additional protesters from gaining entry." So the event at Fort Erie happened on the 12th; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And according to a situational report, it was 120 vehicles that converged on -- in the area of the Peace Bridge; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And protesters accessed the CBSA plaza, which I understand to mean sort of the parking lot - --
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- on foot. And then it says that police and the CBSA were able to direct the protesters to leave after 20 minutes. Is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right, and we have evidence from Dwayne McDonald who’s the Commander for the “E” Division of the RCMP and he describes the event, basically, as a -- exactly as you’ve just put it, so that there was sort of a painted vehicle that crossed a threshold but it wasn’t a breach, per se.
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And he also observed that the media reports on that specific event were not accurate; would you agree with that?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you have any doubt to -- any reason to doubt his evidence?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And just for the record, I’ll note that that’s WTS00000069 at page 20, which is the RCMP Panel Witness Summary, and Dwayne McDonald’s evidence is in there. So my last question for you before I turn it over to my colleague is that the Section 58 explanation also talks broadly about the economic impacts of the border blockades, and I understand that CBSA itself did not conduct any analysis on the economic impacts; is that right?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Did you say “value- for-duty”?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And who did you provide that data to?
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so they would have, then, undertaken the economic analysis ---
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Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- based on your data you send them? Okay. Okay, thank you so much, Mr. Ossowski. Those are all of my questions. I’m going to pass it over to Mr. Cameron now.