Volume 14 (November 1, 2022)
Volume 14 has 339 pages of testimony. 26 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Wendy Clements.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Chris Barber - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 670 times)
- Brigitte Belton - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 376 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 345 times)
- Steeve Charland - Farfadaas (spoke 324 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 207 times)
- Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 172 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 161 times)
- Alexandra Heine, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 129 times)
- Andrew Gibbs, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 127 times)
- Jane Scharf, Counsel - Brigitte Belton (spoke 93 times)
- Caroline Laverdière, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 86 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 83 times)
- Ewa Krajewska, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 63 times)
- Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 37 times)
- Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 36 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 25 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 25 times)
- Rebecca Jones, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 22 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 19 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 13 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 7 times)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 6 times)
- Rebecca Shepherd - Brigitte Belton (spoke 4 times)
- Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel - Steeve Charland (spoke 3 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 3 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l'état d'urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just a couple of comments before we get started. This -- the rest of this week, the witnesses being called are in a little different situation in the sense that most, if not all, do not have a witness statement that's been filed, and in some cases, Commission Counsel may not even have interviewed them or interviewed them to any extent. So the estimates of time are, therefore, a little less certain than they normally are. So I just want to raise, if people -- some of the parties have put time in, if you like, as a stakeholder in case something came up, you might want to advise Commission Counsel at the end of the evidence that you're -- you -- there is no need. And those who see something come up that makes it such that they feel they need more time, can maybe be given more time. So I'm going to be a little more flexible than normal in the circumstances because we don't really know what's going to come out and to what degree it will affect one or other party more than what was expected. So I'm just setting that out. The times are challenging this week. They will be big weeks, big days, rather, so I will still be somewhat strict about timelines, but flexible if there is movement available, given that some people, I suspect, and I don't mean to suggest anything nefarious, but people may have taken positions on timing they won't need. So that's just as a preliminary, and that would apply, I think, for the witnesses for the balance of the week. So with that brief introduction, have we got a witness planned?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, the next witness is Chris Barber.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (APPLAUSE)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if I could ask, and I realise there's a fair amount of interest by some parties, and maybe some emotional investment in some of the testimony, but I would ask that we keep it the way it normally is in a courtroom and in a -- an inquiry so that we can keep it going also. We don't have much time. So with that, go ahead.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Barber -- sorry, Your Honour. Mr. Barber, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Swear on the Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Christopher John Barber, B-A-R-B-E-R.
MR. CHRISTOPHER BARBER, Sworn
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I am Commission Counsel. Before I begin my questions, I believe your counsel wants to make a statement.
STATEMENT BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir. For the record, Brendan Miller, counsel for Freedom Corp. As I believe you already know, we've made invocations under all Evidence Act provisions, both federally and provincially, as well as section 13 of the Charter. That's been done in writing. I wonder if I have to do that each and every time the witness testifies or if the Commission has accepted written invocation I have already provided, sir?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we can deem that the witness has objected to answers each and every question, and that -- on the grounds of the answers may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish liability in a civil proceeding. So I think that's taken as a given, and has been filed in the record.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, sir. That's all. That's my statement.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So good morning, again, Mr. Barber. Just so you're aware of the process today, I'm going to ask you questions for approximately the next 90 minutes. When I'm complete, the parties who have requested time will have time to ask you some questions themselves, again, for, depending on how things go, roughly 90 minutes, and we will have a final opportunity to ask you some follow up questions if that proves necessary. Okay?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I want to start with some basic information about yourself. So I understand that you're from Swift Current, Saskatchewan; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am; correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you lived in Swift Current?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All my life, 47 years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that you operate a trucking business called CB Trucking Limited. Do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just briefly describe the nature of that business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Long haul, short haul. We haul agriculture equipment across the Prairies and into the United States.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's your role with the business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm the business owner and a driver.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how many other drivers do you have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I employ my son and a couple other lease operators, contract employees.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you been in the trucking business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Since I was 18, so just 28 years, roughly.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you operating CB Trucking in January of 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the Commission understands it, Mr. Barber, you were one of the original organisers of the Freedom Convoy that arrived in Ottawa in January of 2022.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it you agree with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you just have to make sure you speak audibly when give your answer ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- just for the transcript. Thank you. How did you get involved in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was contacted by Brigitte Belton, another social media follower, via the app TikTok. Communication started from there, speaking about possibly slow rolls to protest the mandates for the border crossing coming into effect January 15th for cross border travel for commercial vehicles.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall when Ms. Belton first contacted you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was the beginning of January sometime, the dates might be fuzzy. January 8th, January 7th, somewhere in there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you know Ms. Belton before ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What did you come to know about Ms. Belton?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She's just another trucker, a cross-border driver that was facing her job to be lost on the 15th of January unless she complied with the mandates.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did Ms. Belton -- what was she asking you to do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Get involved to start something to try and speak out against the government going too far in some of these mandates?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say government going too far in some of these mandates, can you explain at that point in time what mandates were concerning you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The cross border travel, specifically.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are you talking about the decision of the Federal Government to no longer exempt truckers from the requirement that they be vaccinated, otherwise they would have to quarantine?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You mentioned that Ms. Belton communicated with you on TikTok. Did I hear that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Perhaps for the benefit of the Commission, and maybe people who don't -- who aren't as familiar with social media, can you explain what TikTok is?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
TikTok is an app, a social media app. Short videos under three minutes. My daughter got me into it about three, four years ago, approximately. I surpassed her in followers right away, so that made her quite anxious.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to getting involved in TikTok, were you using any other social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I was on Facebook.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you noted that you attracted a lot of followers. In January of 2022, do you know how many followers you had on TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Prior to the convoy?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would've guessed, roughly guessed at around 30,000, maybe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thirty thousand. And you know, in -- by the time, you know, in mid-February 2022, which we'll get to, but how did your followers grow at that point in time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Quite significantly. We were up -- I don't know the numbers. There were 170,000, somewhere in there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So again, prior to Ms. Belton contacting you, can you give us a sense of the sort of content you were posting on TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A lot of trucking videos, hauling videos, just -- I'm generally a smart guy on social media, a lot of humour.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you posting at all about COVID-19 ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and public health measures?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How would you describe the nature of those posts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Angry. Very angry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why were you angry?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The mandates. The provincial mandates, the federal mandates that they just keep tossing more on. It seemed like it was just an overreach or over -- it just -- they went too far on a regular basis, and it was very frustrating.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did the COVID-19 public health mandates affect you personally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We lost a lot of drivers. What freight I can't handle myself for my company I share with other fellow drivers and other company owners. We lost -- the government likes to say 10 percent of cross border drivers. I didn't see that, I seen it more 35 to 40 percent. We lost a lot of drivers, like a tremendous amount of drivers, where freight was backed up both sides of the border and caused some significant trouble.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say you lost a lot of drivers, what about -- and I understand when we're talking about public health restrictions we're talking at various levels of government, but what about those restrictions led to you losing drivers?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The lack of the drivers getting the vaccination to be able to cross the border as of the 15th.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say as of the 15th, do you mean as of the 15th of January 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what I understand you to be saying is that the government's decision to no longer exempt truckers from vaccination at -- from vaccination requirements, that was your concern projecting forward.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you lost drivers prior to that in relation to ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- COVID-19?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is there any other ways that the -- that -- again, it doesn't matter the level of government for the purpose of the question. Is there any other way that the public health restrictions relating to COVID-19 affected you personally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Personally? When the COVID vaccine passport came in it made things a little tricky. We weren't allowed to enter restaurants anymore. It was -- I trucked throughout the whole pandemic, I never stopped. I was eating in my truck. I had a coffee pot -- a coffeemaker in my truck. The restaurants were closed, gas stations were closed, bathrooms were closed. It was really tricky. I remember about two weeks into the pandemic thinking this isn't worth it and going home. And then the customer demands kept climbing, so I ended up -- I stayed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you, yourself, get vaccinated?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you make that decision?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've spent the better part of 16 years running my company, keeping the big carriers away from my customer base, and I was at risk of losing all that hard work to not being able to cross the border anymore.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say big carriers, it's my understanding that you, CB Trucking Limited, is an independent company; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a small company, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to the Commissioner what it means to be an independent trucker as opposed to a big carrier?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Independent carriers, three trucks on my fleet, it's a lot harder to run a smaller company like that compared to the big companies. Most of my competition is up around the 200 -- 50 to 200 trucks.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated in your earlier response that your TikTok following grew as you participated in the Freedom Convoy. In terms of discussing the Freedom Convoy and planning the Freedom Convoy did you use any other social media other than TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did, Facebook, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Any other social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Snapchat.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A little bit on Instagram, I'd say, but not much.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I've -- the Commission has seen in some of the documents relating to you that at times you would refer to yourself as an internet troll. Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Unfortunately, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you explain to the Commission what it means to be an internet troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A troublemaker, online troublemaker.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you maybe give an example of what that means, you know, when it comes to TikTok, for instance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, on TikTok I deal with trolls on a regular basis. They constantly attack me. Usually they’re faceless. Some of them you can see their profiles. I engage with them like I always have. I fight back and forth with them on a regular basis, and I’ve done that for many years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Belton reached out to you and began discussing the possibility of a convoy or a slow roll, I take it that was something you were interested in participating in?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To speak my part, to do my part to protest. To try and get the government to start listening to us.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And picking up on that last part, what -- at the outset, what were you hoping to achieve by participating in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I primarily wanted the government to listen to our concerns.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you politically active before COVID-19?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you an active member of any political party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One final question about TikTok. We’ve seen information that suggested that in January 2022 you had multiple TikTok accounts. Is that ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you have more than one TikTok account?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The internet troll that I would like to be would constantly become banned for posting inappropriate things or things that went against community standards, so your punishment for that would be seven days -- three to seven days off the device, so you would log into another account.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you were suspended, you would then open another account so you could continue posting.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you find it hard to gain the followers you had when you started with a new account?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No. I’ve always ran a couple different accounts. Right now I think I post on three different accounts.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Ms. Belton contacts you and you said you recall was perhaps early in January 2022 and begins asking you about slow rolls and potentially a convoy. What happened next?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Discussions started. We then moved forward with planning. Other people, other members, other teams became involved really fast. We realized that there was -- there was a lot of support behind us the more we got into the logistics of it all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were involved in the early discussions?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Early discussions, Brigitte Belton and I, a male called Dave Steenburg, and with that, Brigitte introduced me to people like James Bauder with Canada Unity, Patrick King, online social media guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll have some questions about the moment, but I think what would be beneficial to the Commission is to understand how -- you know, to the extent you can explain it, how you go from Ms. Belton contacting you, raising this idea and then getting to the point where you’re organizing what becomes a large event. Can you explain sort of how that progressed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was completely organic. Everything just literally fell right onto place. It was -- I believe it was about two weeks from the time we started talking about it to the time we actually left. It was extremely fast.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was organizing and planning the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All of us. There wasn’t one, necessarily, a leader. It was a group of organizers per se. We had people in every province that stepped up. We had helpers in every province that stepped up. We had helpers in every province. It was all -- everyone just came together.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there people who were more involved in planning than others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, myself, Tamara Lich, Brigitte Belton, James Bauder and Patrick King.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in those two weeks, how was the convoy promoted?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via social media, for the most part.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you provide some more information?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Tamara Lich and I were in contact I believe the middle of January. The specific date may be around the 13th, maybe the 10th. Tamara started a Facebook page and a Twitter account for Freedom Convoy 2022. And the word started to spread from there. We kept up on our TikTok videos. We all did Facebook lives. We all promoted it via our independent social media apps.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that Ms. Lich started the Facebook page, as you indicated, in or around January 13th. Prior to that, what promotion had been done about the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very little. Very little.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had any promotion been done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just little things on social media just getting the word out and finding out who was willing to help and who was coming to the parade.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It’s the Commission’s understanding that you participated in a Facebook live event on January 13th, 2022. Do you know what I’m referring to?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in that Facebook live event, in attendance were yourself, James Bauder, who you’ve referenced, Ms. Belton, who we’ve spoken about, and Pat King. Does that accord with your recollection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And there was other individuals there who were assisting and planning. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that that video took place prior to Mrs. -- Ms. Lich’s involvement. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe Ms. Lich was involved at that point. I believe that she was busy that night and could not attend that, if my memory serves me right.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And have you reviewed that video prior to your testimony?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And it’s approximately an hour and a half long, and subject to any comments from the parties, what I suggest to do is just read out the document ID and have it entered without showing the video itself because I would run out of time if that had happened. So it is COM00000829. And the Commission has also asked a transcriptionist to prepare a transcription of that video, which I may ask you about later, but again, I’m just going to read out the document ID right now, which is COM00000838. So Mr. Barber, I can take you to portions of the transcript if it will assist, but in reviewing the video, it strikes the Commission that, at that point in time, both Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were active -- were already actively involved in planning routes and promoting the convoy to the people that they were already connected with. Is that a fair statement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were promoting the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I add -- I can add that Canada Unity became involved, and Canada Unity was actually planning -- I learned later they were planning some sort of a route across Canada to Ottawa for a protest. They had the stops and everything already planned. They had a web site ready. They had -- everything was all in place, to my recollection.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So yes, the Commission’s understanding is Mr. Bauder had a web site through Canada Unity and on that web site there was already route maps and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- stops and locations. Is that your understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Bauder is expected to testify, and we can ask him more questions about that. So I just want to clarify what you said there. Was -- is it your recollection that that planning was already in place by the time you were connected with Mr. Bauder?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder got connected to you and Ms. Belton?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe through Brigitte Belton.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video from January 13th, 2022, which I’ve already referenced, Mr. Bauder presented a document that he referred to as a Memorandum of Understanding. Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of the Memorandum of Understanding before January 13th, 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir. No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And just for the sake of the transcriptionist, just if you could wait till I’m finished my question before answering. Just cleaner transcript. So were you aware of that memorandum?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What do you recall Mr. Bauder saying about the Memorandum of Understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I reviewed the video just a couple days ago, and I remembered again. He just -- I believe he just explained how the document worked and that it had already been sent to the government -- Governor-General and to the government, I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if, at that time -- and when I say at that time, I mean January 13th -- if you had an understanding then what Mr. Bauder was hoping to do with his Memorandum of Understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I just -- I ignored it. I don’t know. I wasn’t into that sort of thing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And again, we’re -- we expect to hear from Mr. Bauder and we’ll hear his evidence on it. The Commission understands that one of the things that the Memorandum of Understanding presented was a notion that in respect of the COVID-19 mandates that there -- Mr. Bauder believed that there was not enough time for lawsuits to challenge those mandates and that, in fact, through a piece of law called the Helsinki Act that the -- a group of -- a citizens committee could come to an agreement with the Senate and any mandates they viewed as unlawful would stop. Is that your understanding of, ultimately, what the Memorandum of Understanding meant?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge. To this day, I still have yet to read the Memorandum of Understanding. I have no clue what’s in the document and I will never read it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In January 2022, did you have any understanding what Mr. Bauder's roles were with the convoy that he had organized?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not. Like I said before, it was a matter of a whole bunch of different groups coming together at the perfect timing and having that input into the planning of it, and everyone had their piece. And we were so unorganized for the most part, we used whatever we could, whatever means, whatever tools we could find.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the early planning stage, what was Brigitte Belton doing?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Same as myself. She was posting TikTok videos and promoting through her Facebook.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King who was on the January 13th livestream, what was he doing?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the same thing. Patrick had a quite large following on social media, especially Facebook. So he promoted and did videos on his platform.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to January 2022, did you know who Pat King was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how were you first introduced to him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via the Zoom call on the 13th, I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And maybe I'll ask this at this point, prior to the January 13th Facebook livestream, had you participated in any calls or meetings with Mr. Bauder or Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe so. There might have been one in there earlier. I don't recall one personally.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall how you were introduced to Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't, sorry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you first came to understand that Mr. King was promoting the convoy, what did you come to learn about him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just another helping hand, another person with a large following that could -- that would help.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to learn anything about his background prior to January 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not until -- no. Not until probably two days into the convoy itself.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were meeting Mr. King and Mr. Bauder and Ms. Belton, did you ask any of them about their backgrounds and why they were participating in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes. I understand Patrick King had children that were unvaccinated, I believe, and Brigitte was the fact that she was going to lose her job on the 15th of January.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At that point in time, did you have any questions yourself about who am I getting -- who am I organizing with and who are these people who are going to assist me in this?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think I was just so excited and so overwhelmed right from the day one. I don't think I really had time. It was a very busy time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that many people stated goal in terms of the convoy was to end COVID- 19 mandates; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of anyone who participated in the early organization who had a different goal than that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the convoy began travelling to Ottawa and then after it arrived in Ottawa, do you believe there were people who participated who wanted something more than to end COVID-19 mandates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you describe why you -- the basis of that belief?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was different organizations that came and went. For the most part, we stayed as a close group, Tamara and myself, Brigitte. The core group of actual truckers stayed together. Organizations kind of came in, tried to set camp up and we either found a way to keep it under control or keep in the -- it was a power struggle a lot of the time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just -- can you provide some more details about that power struggle, what organizations, what they were trying to do and what you did in response?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we had a little bit of conflict between Canada Unity, that was one, not necessarily conflict, but Taking Back our Freedoms was involved there. No conflict, but the war vets joined us. They were beside us the entire time. We had retired police officers, OPP.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Canada Unity, that's Mr. Bauder's organization; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to me what the conflict was with Canada Unity?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Power control. Simple.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was Canada Unity doing that you didn't agree with?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't like the MOU, I believe, even though I still have yet to read it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at some point, I take it you came to understand what Canada Unity was trying to achieve with the MOU; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I still believe that they were after the same things we were. I believe that maybe it was more mask mandates, more COVID restrictions in general.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated that the conflict with Canada Unity was about the MOU and I'm just trying to understand what about the MOU had -- gave rise to conflict?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Improperly written MOU. According to the people that I spoke to about it, it wasn't something on our agenda. It wasn't something we were pushing for. It had nothing to do with the reason why we actually came to Ottawa.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who did you speak to about the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ms. Lich.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did she tell you about the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had the same opinion.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But I -- what did she tell you about what was in the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't speak for what Tamara said. I'm not sure if she's read it or not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She wasn't ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- did you have any concerns that the MOU advocated or provided for an undemocratic change of power in Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard rumours about it being that way. I heard rumours on both sides that it could be interpreted that way and then it couldn't be interpreted that way. It was kind of a mixed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you take any steps to figure out what exactly Mr. Bauder was trying to achieve with the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not necessarily. We -- I remember calling on Mr. Bauder, having him renounce the MOU partial the way through the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall roughly when that occurred?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what led you to ultimately make a phone call to Mr. Bauder and ask him to renounce it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was Tamara that made the call. Just too much -- there was too much highlight in it. There was too much spotlight in this document that we didn't have anything to do with.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say too much highlight and too much spotlight, are you talking about -- I think you characterized it as the rumours that it called for something undemocratic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What happened after, to your understanding, Ms. Lich called Mr. Bauder and asked him to rescind it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was rescind [sic]. I believe they removed it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you continue working with Mr. Bauder throughout the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
James was around. Not necessarily with him. He was around. We seen each other from time to time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Another group you mentioned in terms of their being -- and maybe this wasn't your words, but I understand a power struggle, is that fair, among groups?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Another group you mentioned was Taking Back our Freedoms?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was Taking Back our Freedoms?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know names. I know Roy and James were the ones that came out. They tried to help us out, create structure inside the meetings and the day- to-day planning.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what Taking Back our Freedoms' goals were with respect to the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To this day, I do not. I believe mandate freedom, government gone too far.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I think you described there was a level of friction with them; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From times, yeah, there was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is there -- did you take any steps -- when you had this group that there was some friction or conflict with, did you take any steps to figure out what their goals or what they were trying to do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn't personally part of those. I found my role outside walking the streets a lot. So the inner meetings, I tended to skip out on quite a bit.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken already a little bit about Ms. Lich, who I -- as I understand it, your recollection is that she was likely involved around the time of the January 13th livestream, she just did not participate; did I have that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did Ms. Lich become involved in the Freedom Convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ms. Lich called me on my cell phone, I believe, like I said, somewhere before the 10th of January, and told me she had a little bit of experience in the department of protesting and convoy. She was part of the 2019 United We Roll Tour. We needed help and I acknowledged that. It was just a phone call out of the blue. Tamara got my phone number and the friendship and continued.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you ever find out how Ms. Lich got your phone number?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She said the name before. I don't remember what the name was. She -- a friend of a friend had my contact.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned that Ms. Lich had participated in the 2019 United We Roll convoy.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich phoned you, did you know what that was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you explain to the Commission what the 2019 United We Roll convoy was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oil and gas. I believe they came from Alberta to Ottawa protesting pipeline shutdowns or pipeline building, one of the two.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Ms. Lich, it was your understanding, was involved in that convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She was involved with some of the…
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you understand that Mr. King was also involved in that conversation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Afterwards.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about Mr. Bauder?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know about James.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich called you, had you heard of Tamara Lich before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I had not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you come to know about Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She’s a mother, she’s a grandmother; she’s a regular Albertan, good hearted, strong person.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you become aware, in your early conversations with Ms. Lich that she had been -- participated in the Wexit Movement in Alberta and been involved in the Maverick Party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I realized -- I was told about that in or out to Ottawa.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is it Ms. Lich who told you that, or did someone else tell you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it was Ms. Lich, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns that, in participating in the convoys, Ms. Lich would be pursuing goals other than mass mandates and maybe -- pursuing political goals of either the Wexit Movement or the Maverick Party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was not my -- no, I didn’t feel that at all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that something you discussed with Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I discussed it, but it wasn’t really an issue. We never discussed anything in detail. It was noted that she was part of that in the past. I believe she wasn’t -- I mean, I don’t think she was -- or she is now. She was, and it was never an issue after that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We expect that there may be evidence that, you know, whether it be Ms. Lich or other people who became involved in the convoy organization, that there was an attempt to use the convoy as an opportunity to pursue political goals that weren’t just about ending the COVID-19 mandates, including political goals that may exist for -- within the Maverick Party or within the Wexit Movement; is that a concern that you have now, looking back?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. It was never brought to my attention that they were a player in this situation. And that wasn’t the reason why we came to Ottawa; I would have fought that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would you have fought that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That wasn’t the reason why we came to Ottawa. We came to Ottawa for mass -- or for, sorry, for border mandates.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Now I’m going to ask you some questions about the process of having trucks begin in British Columbia and drive across Canada and then arrive in Ottawa. First question: Do you have a sense of how many trucks participated in the convoy that you had organized with Mr. Bauder, Mr. King, Ms. Belton, Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The tricky part was trying to get a solid number. There would be a certain amount of trucks, cars, buses, campers, that would come into the convoy for a short period of time, let’s say from Regina to Winnipeg, just to take part in it and would exit off, and at that same time more people would come in from Winnipeg to go to Kenora. I know for a fact some people left with their children in a semi from Saskatchewan planning on going to Regina and went home three weeks later. We ranged anywhere from 500 to 2,500 vehicles, is what I was told. Looking in the mirrors it was incredible to see the lights behind you and the long lines. And watching the videos, it was approximately 25 kilometres long at some times.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever expect that level of participation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not in my wildest dreams.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction when you saw the level of participation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, there was a lot of tears.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you expand on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Emotions, we’re -- the things that we seen out the windshield of the truck as we crossed the Prairies, and in Ontario, overwhelming support; people standing on the side of the highways, people lining overpasses. We were often late by around two hours; we were never really on schedule. And people stood in frigid temperatures, minus 20 to minus 30, just to get a chance to see us come through.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Could you explain to the Commission how the convoy organization was able to coordinate that movement of trucks to come to Ottawa; how did people know when they -- where they were supposed to be, where the convoy was, what was going to happen to them when they joined the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had code of ethics, we had rules to follow, we had speeds to endure, we had constant communication on the -- either VHF FM radios or CB radios; cellphone interaction with other people too. Constant communication. Safety was number one priority. When you’re leading that many vehicles of the -- error was what could have been at any minute. So we managed to successfully make it from the West to Ottawa without a single issue, to my knowledge.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During that travel who was primarily responsible for all of that coordination you’re talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was at the lead of the pack. We had two escort pilot trucks leading us. Patrick King was in his motorhome halfway back looking after the back pack. It was just -- it was constant communication on the radio; constantly upping our speeds, lowering our speeds, trying to keep the convoy at a steady pace together. If I was going too fast, people would start to lag and there would be a distance. We would have to then slow down and catch everybody up.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there any point on the journey to Ottawa where you were concerned that the convoy, you know, might not make it, or something may interfere in the trucks arriving?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, everything was well orchestrated. We had police communication right from -- my role began from Swift Current to Medicine Hat, Alberta, where I picked up Ms. Lich and joined the West convoy, and that was where my part started. We were in communication with -- the first police force would have been Medicine Hat. We were in contact with Swift Current, Regina, Moosejaw, all the way across the country for -- for police escorts. If there was a traffic light, we actually called for traffic control at those intersections so we could proceed through the intersections safely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it’s the Commission’s understanding, based on some of the documents that your counsel has produced, that people were in contact with the police on a daily basis.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you one of those people?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Again, based on the documents the Commission’s received, we also understand that when the convoy arrived in Ontario, that an OPP escort was there to meet the convoy; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just provide some more explanation about that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know his last name, his name was Marty, he met us at the West Hawk scale which is the scale that borders Ontario and Manitoba. He met us there; he jumped out in front and led us. I believe Marty follow -- or led us, I believe, to Thunder Bay’ish area where then he got us in Kenora, he led us downtown Kenora to the rec centre parking lot where we were -- where we staged for the evening. We had a funny story -- not a funny story, but coming into Headingly, Manitoba, the Hutterite communities from around the Winnipeg area came into Headingly with food trailers. They had hot food, burgers, everything you could think of. RCMP had called me and said the amount of people in the Headingly area was too great; it was a huge risk to safety to get in and out of the parking lot for the truck stop. So we had to abandon the plan to stop. So we carried on around Winnipeg, and three Hutterite vehicles with trailers followed us to Kenora and fed us in the parking lot at the rec centre that night. It was cold as can be and they had the barbeques out and the slow cookers; it was quite amazing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you get into Ontario, I assume the daily contact with the police continued.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did that include daily contact with both the OPP and the OPS, or would -- can you just explain what police services you were...
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Contact was made with, I believe her name was Isabelle, from OPS. Isabelle was in constant contact with, I believe Chris Garrah of Adopt a trucker, and things were planned on our arrival.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you in contact with Isabelle or anyone from the Ottawa Police Service?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I spoke with Isabelle a few times on the phone. I’ve met her once on the ground here. I didn’t have a lot of logistics with Isabelle, that was already being looked after.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you speak with Isabelle prior to the convoy’s arrival in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I did. I made contact with Isabelle but I’m not sure exactly when. There was a phone call made to say, “I’m Chris, here’s my contact.”
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were speaking with either the OPP or the OPS -- and I’m talking about you personally -- what were you telling them about the convoy’s plans when they arrived in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Exactly what it was. We were there to protest border mandates, and our main priority was safety and working with law enforcement, whatever it took.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall having any discussions with any police officers about how long the protest might last?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think the discussion started after the first weekend with OPS, I believe, and we had one -- a couple of OPP officers in constant contact too, I know his name was Andrew.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So prior to that -- prior to that point you’ve referenced, so after the first weekend did you discuss the potential length of the protest with any police officials?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At what point did you realize that the protest may continue for an extended period of time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I ever really thought much into it. Everything moved so fast when we arrived.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Prior to arriving in Ottawa, had you personally turned your mind to how long you would stay?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, my business would suffer the longer I was away from it. So that in the back of my mind -- I really didn’t know. It was the movement of its own and it continued to grow, and you mentally had to try and keep up with it, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your discussions with either the OPP or the OPS as the convoy was approaching Ottawa, did any of the police services give you direction on where you could park the trucks once you arrived in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Interesting story: All the way to Ottawa, my understanding via people in the convoy, Canada Unity, was that we had two major staging areas; one was Major Hill Park, and the other one was Confederate Park. I believe Confederate. And that was -- to my understanding, that’s where we were allowed to park and protest peacefully.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that where you ultimately parked?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did -- where did -- I understand that you parked your truck on Wellington Street; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had a police escort down Sir John A. Macdonald off the 417. My understanding -- I didn’t know this till afterwards -- police blocked the convoy after myself and another tractor-trailer went through. They shut the convoy down around the War Museum on Sir John A. Macdonald. They then led myself and Tamara and the pilot trucks. We made it to roughly the Supreme Court on Wellington, and that was as far as we could go. There was a ton of vehicles had come in the night before, apparently, wanting to be there for the arrival. So there had already been tractor-trailers lined up in front of Parliament down to, approximately, the Supreme Court.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that surprise you to see that there was already large commercial vehicles?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did that surprise you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was unaware of it. My understanding was we were going to come in, the police were going to escort us right to the two parks. We would park safely out of the way, and it would be fine.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone from any police service ever explain to you what had changed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe not, no. I don’t know if I ever asked that question.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone else ever explain to you what had led to the park -- the vehicles being parked in the downtown core as opposed to the parks you identified?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, we caught them off guard; we overwhelmed them right off the bat. With the trucks coming in the night before that we were unaware of, our main convoy, as far as I know, had nothing to do with those prior arrivals, so...
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you since learned who was the early arrivals?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were all semi operators. I knew a couple from my home province. They were in the area, apparently. They weren’t part of the convoy, but they were in the area, and they took part in the protest.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I asked you this and I think you’ve confirmed it, but you parked your vehicle on Wellington Street; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After you parked there, at any point in time up until, we’ll say, February 14th, were you given any indication by any police services that you shouldn’t be parked on Wellington and you’d need to move?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that come as a surprise to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I really had time to think if it was a surprise, it was so fast-paced.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard evidence from several police witnesses who have been asked questions essentially about whether more could have been done to limit or control the size and scope of the protest in Ottawa in the early days. I’ve heard your answers but I’m just going to ask you one more time; was the police response to the convoy what you were expecting or anticipating when you arrived?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s a hard question to answer. I believe they did the best they could. The scope of the amount of vehicles that came in, I don’t know how things went so -- went so wrong when we first arrived. We were -- they did what they could. They did the best we could. We were all -- 90 percent of the trucks were stuck out on Sir John A. Macdonald, I believe, with -- pretty much abandoned. Nobody knew where to go, nobody had direction.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In retrospect, do you think it would have been better had the trucks parked where they were initially designated to park?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, absolutely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why is that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, if the staging areas we were allowed to take, Major Hills Park and Confederate Park, I understand now that that was never part of the deal, apparently. Although, I don’t know; that was all I was told.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would have that been better?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We would have been off the main streets. Occupying or parking all over the city was never part of why we came.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I’ve just been handed a note to suggest that both you and I are speaking a little quickly for the interpreters.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I will try to slow down and I’ll ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I apologize.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- ask you also to try to slow down. No, that’s okay. We’re both to blame so it’s okay. So I’m now going to ask you, and we’ve already touched on it a little bit but about what happened with the people who were originally involved in organizing the convoy. We’ve spoken about Mr. Bauder already but I’m going to now ask you about Pat King. And as I understand it, that in or around January 22nd, 24th, in or around that time period, you and Ms. Lich began having discussions about concerns relating to Mr. King. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain to me the nature of those discussions and what the concerns were?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the first episode was a CBC article, came out of some past prior social media posts that Pat had been a part of, and we met with Pat, discussed our concerns. I believe we smoothed the waters over, and we carried on at that point.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So do you recall what concerns -- what had been reported in that CBC article that caused you concern?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t really -- I never read the article. There was something about something Pat said years ago. According to Pat, the article was edited or what he said was edited. I can’t confirm or deny that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m just going to pull up a document; it’s HRF00001221, and we’ll go to page 2. And while this document comes up, Mr. Barber, this is a document that has been provided by the convoy organizers’ group. It’s a timeline of events that has been provided. So this was provided to us by your counsel. And if we could go to January 24th at the bottom of page 2. And would it be possible to -- yeah, thank you, Mr. Clerk. So you can read the entry that says, “Concerns re Pat King”; do you see them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So this here says: “Tamara and Chris discussed concerns about Pat king after viewing a tweet with a video making reference to bullets.” Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you -- is this conversation being described here the same conversation we were just talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Does this refresh your memory at all about what the concerns were?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This -- the article was made to sound like bullets would be flying, apparently. According to Mr. King, when we confronted him on it he stated that the article was taken out of context, edited to make him sound like he was planning violence, where I believe his -- what he was trying to convey in that article was different than what was portrayed by the media.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission has seen reports that at some point in time, Mr. King made a comment along the lines of, “This is going to end in bullets”; do you know if that’s what was being discussed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was -- according to what I was told, that was a previous post, two years prior, something to do with an Indigenous standoff.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And during this conversation were you also aware that the media was reporting on a video that -- in which Mr. King had made a suggestion that at some point, Justin Trudeau may catch a bullet one day; were you aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I recall something about that, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember if that was something you knew about during this discussion, or after this discussion did you learn more about what Mr. King had posted?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it might have been after.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it says in here in the second sentence: “Chris agreed perhaps Pat should be sent home but there was concern about the trucks Pat brought with him." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was the concern about the trucks?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly division inside the convoy Pat brought a certain following with. I don't remember the extent of anything after that. We discussed sending him home, and obviously he didn't.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the concern that if Mr. King was sent home or asked to not participate that his supporters would also stop participating?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would have been a good guess, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can continue on, the next sentence talks about a -- it says: "Talked to Pat about the Tweet on the roadside..." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was that the conversation you had already described to us?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was -- were you a part of that conversation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then it says, "Following this, a Captains meeting was held in Kenora [and] at the end of the day where everyone expressed concern about Pat King's involvement."
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Yes, thank you. "The decision was made that someone would talk to Pat within the coming days and request that he not attend in Ottawa." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'm going to ask you a question about this -- these two sentences, but before I do that, can you just explain what a captains meeting is?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had road captains involved in -- approximately two road captains per province to organise the trucks. Those were the people that the people from that province could go to with concerns or issues. So we had a number of road captains within the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it sounds in here like after your initial conversation with Mr. King that concerns continued to be raised by other members of the organisation; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know if someone ultimately spoke with Mr. King and asked him not to attend in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly. I wasn't involved in that conversation.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point did you hear from Ms. Lich or anyone else about whether that conversation had occurred?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my recollection, I don't.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King continued on to Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, he did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of any resolution having been reached between the people who had concerns and Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe whatever happened it worked itself out to the point where Pat stayed with the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you personally concerned about what Mr. King had said previously on social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe it was a concern. He explained to me that it was taken out of context, and then edited to make him sound worse than it was. I took him for his word on it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you accepted the explanation at the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you today still believe that -- do you still accept that explanation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe Pat had all the right reasons and a good heart.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to pull up another document. This is COM00000902. And while we're waiting for the document to come up, Mr. Barber, this is a news article. And we can go to page 3 of the document. This is a news article, and it reports on text messages between yourself and Ms. Lich. And as I understand it, and we will get to this later, when you were arrested the police seized your phone and you no longer have access to the messages on your phone. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that we expect to hear from Ms. Lich that she also no longer has access to her text messages. You don't need to comment on that, we can ask Ms. Lich about it. But I'm showing you this news article, and as we go through if there's anything in the article that you think is not accurate, and I appreciate you don't have your phone with you anymore, you can let me know; okay? So if we go down, it says, "On Jan. 22, Lich told Barber they need to have 'a very frank discussion' with King, raising concerns about past allegations [with] him. Despite these concerns, Lich also said he was needed by the movement — in [an] apparent contrast to later statements in which the convoy tried to distance itself from King. 'We need him and I don't care about his past but it only takes one,' she said. 'We have to control his rhetoric. Not even threatening to throw snowballs at the parliament (sic).'" Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you remember if this is something that Ms. Lich text messaged you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My phone was very busy. I'm assuming it's here, so it had to be.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No reason to ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- say this was not a message she sent you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich said that the movement needed Mr. King, do you know what she meant by that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't. I'm not sure.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree that the movement needed Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The best thing about the movement was it was inclusive to everyone regardless of any beliefs, I guess. Everyone had a place, everybody had a spot. It was just managing how.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it from your answers that, I just want to make sure that I'm fair here, is that you, from what you had learned about what Mr. King had maybe said in the past, the content of those statements didn't concern you because of the explanation Mr. King provided. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess. Pat and I had a power struggle between each other, that was pretty evident right from day one. It was just -- it was a power struggle back and forth over control. It wasn't anything that couldn't have been managed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns, separate and apart from your own views about what Mr. King may or may not have said, did you have any concern about the public image of having Mr. King associated with the Freedom Convoy movement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess there would've been some concerns at times, I guess. The bad media posts and releases on a regular basis definitely caused some concern.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just explain what you mean by, did you say the ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The media.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And what was concerning you about the media's coverage?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They attacked him on a regular basis I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you think those attacks were fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't know. I didn't -- like I said, I didn't know Pat previous to the convoy. I met him on the 13th for the first time, and things were so busy after that it was hard to keep your head around all the different moving parts.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than being busy, is there any reason you didn't do more to look into the people who were associated with your convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My primary goal was to get those trucks to Ottawa safely. So phone conversations and that were hard to have. Everything that we did was logistics. It was myself on the mic, on the CB mic or the FM radio mic, all day long making sure the trucks were safe. I kind of left that up to other people in the organisation.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You say -- this media report says that you texted to Ms. Lich: "'I know he's had issues. I've got skeletons in the closet to (sic)...'" Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall texting that to Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What were the skeletons in your closet?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I've been -- like I've said before, I've been an internet troll for many years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At this point in time, was there something in -- was there anything in particular that concerned you about what you had done on the internet?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Nothing that was related to the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about things that were unrelated to the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What concerned you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I used to post nasty, distasteful memes, be it share memes or just posting online in a negative way.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission's understanding that some members of the media identified certain Facebook posts that you had made and had reported on them or tweeted about them. Is that something you were aware of at the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, they'd been circulated for quite sometime.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And these include Facebook posts that contained racist and anti Muslim comments. Is that a fair characterisation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I expect you may be asked questions about those by some of the parties, and I wanted to give you an opportunity now, if you wanted it, to speak to some of the racist or anti Muslim things you posted.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can honestly say that if anybody learned anything or grew more during the convoy it was me. I was a different person nine months ago, whatever it was, ten months ago. Coming out here and seeing the amount of love and the people of all different colours, all different race, everything, it was such a diverse crowd of people here. There was -- so there was so many tears, there was so many hugs, there was so much laughter, there was so much -- it was -- it changed a person, it changed me.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you change?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It just -- it humbled me, I guess. It made me realise that a lot of those stuff that I used to post on the internet before was very distasteful, and there's a better way to do it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things that the media reported on during the convoy was that you had a Confederate flag in your shop in Swift Current; do you know what I'm talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you posted at least one or two Tik Toks addressing that issue; do you recall?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one of those Tik Toks you said that the Confederate flag was -- you explained that you -- I believe you'd purchased it in the United States; do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then you described it as a piece of cloth and get over yourself.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that a sentiment you continue to have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe there's two different contexts to look at the Confederate flag. I've got a good friend that lives outside of Atlanta, Georgia. She's an African American lady. I had a in-depth conversation with her many times on this occasion. She's explained it to me quite well. She said the way the -- the two different contexts, how you look at the flag, was the area of the General Lee and the Dukes of Hazard via, like, Kid Rock, Lynyrd Skynyrd music. When we grew up in our hometown, we had -- we called it a rebel flag or a dixie flag. We didn't really call it a Confederate flag. It was on license plates. It was on back windows. It was everywhere. And at that time, it was more accepted apparently. So in my travels in the deep south years ago, I'd come across a flag store. I seen the dixie flag there. I purchased it. I hung it up on the wall in my shop not thinking anything of it. My African American lady friend in Georgia explained to me that if you wore that flag over your shoulders to a Confederate battlefield, I would probably call you a lot of names. But she said, being the way you're displaying it now and the fact that you loved your childhood watching the Dukes of Hazard and seeing that flag on the roof of the General Lee, it's a different context.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have the flag in your shop?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What I did with the flags in the shop was I zip tied them. So they were hanging on the wall of the shop. I went up on a ladder and I zip tied them together. They're still there, but they're not displayed in the correct manner, out of respect for ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you talk about how you've changed, is that an example of something you're doing different?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You've spoken about Mr. King a bit. Once you arrived in Ottawa, did you -- and did you continue to work with Mr. Bauder in terms of the protest activity that was going on in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I hardly seen James the time I was here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken a bit about Ms. Belton. Once you arrived in Ottawa, what was Ms. Belton's role in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Same as myself. She was more centralized around the hotel area where we had our daily meetings, making sure things were looked after. My job morphed into more of a outside walking the streets, making sure the trucks were well looked after, making sure the concerns were well, working with the law enforcement on a day-to-day basis, making sure that we had emergency lanes open wherever the trucks were parked. We had a couple different hot spots -- not hot spots, but places in the city that we had -- we'd lost -- we couldn't get the emergency lanes open, and they weren't -- looking back now, they weren't the trucks that came with us from the west. The one issue was Rideau and Sussex. We spent many days down trying to get an emergency lane open, with law enforcement, OPP and OPS.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we're going to have some questions about Rideau Sussex in a moment. We expect that Ms. Belton may indicate that there's been a falling out between you and her. Is that true?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the nature of that falling out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just difference of opinions.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What are the different opinions?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't even -- just difference of opinion, different direction. I just chose to stay on a path. My criminal charges have left me to be a lot more silent. I can't speak with, like, what I used to be able to speak about the convoy. I'd rather remain silent. So I've - - instead of fighting with anybody there, I've said my peace and went my different ways.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up a video, HRF146? And, again, I'll give you some context while it comes up. So this is one of your Tik Toks -- just a moment. And we're going to watch it in its entirety and then I'll have some questions flowing from it.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. (VIDEO PLAYED)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Clerk. You can pull that down. So I have a few questions arising out of that video. One of the things you say early on is that you want a peaceful protest. And the Commission has seen many instances, and we don't have the time to take you to them all, of where you insist on the protest being peaceful and to the extent there's any sort of suggestion of violence you immediately step in and say this needs to be peaceful. Why was that important to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had the public on our support. That was -- and I'll apologise for the language there, Commissioner. That was another thing that I've worked on in the last number of months. Look at ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've heard worse. I've heard worse. Don't worry.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's good. You can take the trucker out of the truck but you -- that was, yeah, most important because we had -- the world was watching us. We had -- there was so many people and safety was utmost. And we were told leave by -- the lawyers flew out, I believe it was the end of the month, the first part of February, something like that, and we were told by the lawyers on the daily basis that we were legitimate protest. We were allowed to be there. We were doing the right things. And the last thing I wanted to do was wreck that for the people that we were trying to represent. And there was a ton of support all across -- all over the world really.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And to put that video into a bit of context, you say that this is a message for the convoy that's coming next week, so -- or arriving. And so we understand that that video is taken probably some time in the week of January 23rd; does that sound right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that would have been before you had -- the lawyers had gotten involved and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- you're beginning to get direction from them; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at that point in time when you're emphasizing the importance of a peaceful protest, did you have a concern that the people who were participating in the convoy might not be peaceful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll give you a little example of truck drivers. They're like herding cats. They -- you've got every different style of driver, and I've always said, you put 200 truck drivers in a room and somebody's going to get a black eye and a broken nose. But -- and knowing that going into it, I was worried about that because of the differences of opinion with all truck drivers. I can honestly say that that was something that surprised me. There was none of that. The drivers were well -- and in my -- what I seen, they were extremely well behaved. They listened to the rules of the road. I didn't have a single incident with, to my recollection, with that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So they listened to the rules of the road, I assume you mean on the way to Ottawa; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Once you got into Ottawa, was your observation that the protest was peaceful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was loud, but it was peaceful.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see any acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we'll get to the noise in a moment.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In another Tik Tok video you posted, and I'm -- and this would have been during the protest in Ottawa, you say that the last thing we need is a January 6th style insurrection, and that was one of your biggest concerns. Do you recall saying that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why was that one of your biggest concerns?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the federal government was backed into a corner, not wanting to speak to us. And I personally believe that that was the only way, I guess, out of it for them, to demonize us to the point where they could say insurrection when that wasn't the case. And so I pushed that message constantly, daily, peace, love, community. Like I said, it changed with me as a person listening to myself daily saying that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were saying that, was -- what sort of activity were you contemplating that might give rise, either correctly or incorrectly, to the impression that this was going to be some form of insurrection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The police build-up. We had daily meetings with police, whether it be OPP or OPS, and everything was positive, but it seemed like the police presence built on a daily basis.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there anything that other protestors were doing that were concerning you? And I’m not just talking about protestors within your group. I’m talking about of all the people who were in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I seen, no. The trucks that I looked after on a day-to-day basis were all -- were excited. They were excited. We were two years outside of a -- of lockdowns and mandates and people got to live again. And we seen that on a daily basis.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So another thing you mentioned in the video that we showed was that there was rules of the convoy. You talked about clearing the way for emergency vehicles and that law enforcement need to be respected. Was there any other rules of the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Basically, that was it. Yes, there was a code of -- I don’t remember if we actually did a code of conduct up or not or we just -- mornings we had tailgate safety meetings with the drivers to make sure that everything was well. There was constant communication with everything. I had no concerns with the trucks. The trucks were always well behaved and, like I said, law enforcement was always open and honest. We did -- we worked really well with every law enforcement that I ever spoke to.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But at the same time, you recognize that it was important to have rules and try as an organizer to at least have -- try to have some sort of order over the people that were in Ottawa. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As an organizer, did you believe that you had responsibility for the conduct of the protestors in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I took it upon myself to do everything in my power to make sure that the drivers were notified if things weren’t right. I can’t say it was my responsibility. I don’t -- I can’t act on behalf of someone else. But I definitely did what I could to try and make sure things were done properly.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what motivated you to do that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just the sheer size of it and the support. We had support, like I said, all over the country, all over the world, and there was so many people watching. It was -- it was exciting to see the general public -- and one of the biggest things for me it was exciting to see the young kids get back involved with trucks, that were excited for the horn honk, the -- standing on the side of the highway. Kids wanted to be truck drivers again, and I haven’t seen that since I was a child.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So from what I’m hearing, and I want you to correct me if I’m wrong, is that you liked what you were seeing, you felt it was positive and you wanted to try to keep that atmosphere because you wanted to continue the positive experience. Is that a fair sort of summary? Perhaps not the most articulate.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were in Ottawa, what was your views on the police’s responsibilities with respect to peaceful protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They always -- they seemed to respect. I dealt with quite a few on a daily basis, and I can’t -- I can’t say I had a harsh conversation or anything with any of them. Maybe -- police were always respectful. I would walk up to random officers standing on the side of the -- of the street and just -- or sitting in a police car patrolling the barricade and say, “Everything okay? Have you seen anything that was a concern?”. And I never once -- once got a reaction bad.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video we showed, you mention that the “public is on our side and when we start acting like assholes, we lost that”.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did it mean to you to be “acting like an asshole”?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Disrespectful. Not -- not playing by the code of conduct or the rules.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you give me an example of something that you believed was -- would be disrespectful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Being disruptive, I guess. Like I said, we tried on a daily basis to make sure everybody was looked after. So the police had free lanes through, through all. Ambulances had free lanes. I know it was pretty tricky. We worked diligently on it. I lost about 20 pounds in the matter of three weeks with the amount of walking I did working with law enforcement. I didn't -- I had a vehicle here, but it was hard to get around with a vehicle, so a lot of times it was walking. And it was frigid. It was 20 to 30 below. I had two t-shirts on, two hoodies on and long underwear and three pairs of socks at times.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I won’t ask you if you put the weight back on, so -- because I wouldn’t want anyone asking me that question. You say “acting like an asshole” included conduct that was disrespectful or disruptive. Did you see anything that was disrespectful or disruptive when you were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Personally I didn’t, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when I say that, I appreciate that not everyone in Ottawa was necessarily someone who had come with your group or who might listen to you. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s fair.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So with that in mind, at any point did you see anything in Ottawa that, you know, that might not be the person who came with you but you wished they weren’t doing it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never seen -- like I said, I never seen anything that really concerned me. If somebody was there that wasn’t part of the original group that I brought in, I would try really hard to negotiate with them or work with them to open that lane if they were parked in a spot that wasn’t where it should have been. Sometimes it was successful, sometimes it wasn’t. I really struggled a lot with, like I said before, when it comes to all truckers are different. That dynamic really played in certain parts of the city where ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your view on how the protest was portrayed in the media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a negative light from day one. They -- they -- yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What do you think was being missed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Everything. I had numerous occasions where people came up to me and said they had to come down and see it for themselves because the media wasn’t portraying it properly. And it was a different thing when they got here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard and received -- heard evidence and received written evidence from various residents and municipal officials several complaints about the protestors’ conduct. I expect you’ll be familiar with them, but some of the things that the Commission has heard is that there was excessive noise due to air horns. There was harassment and intimidating behaviour, including people yelling racist or homophobic slurs. And that there was just a general disorder and unsafe conditions, including open fires, propane tanks near buildings and cars. Is this -- is this sort of evidence or concerns, are you familiar with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can honestly say I never encountered a single episode of that. Obviously there was fires for people trying to stay warm. There was -- there was propane tanks for heating things no different than -- I have a propane tank on my porch with a -- with a portable barbecue, so as long as it was looked after safely, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your mind, who was responsible for making sure that -- taking with the propane tanks or other -- or other flammables, who was responsible for making sure the protest was safe? Not that anyone was going to do anything intentional with a propane tank, but something bad could happen and -- and people could get hurt. Who was responsible for avoiding that outcome?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We left things up to the road captains. Like I said, there was usually two road captains per province (sic), but that morphed into usually a couple road captains per block, and we would hold -- not myself personally. I stayed out of most of those meetings, but the people would hold meetings every day to go over certain things and issues and safety concerns.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to now ask you about the horn honking. The Commission has heard evidence and I’m sure you’re aware that at different times in the protest there was a lot of horn honking. I assume you’ll agree with me about that.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consider the horn honking to be a form of peaceful protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I considered the horn honking to be a form of excitement more than peaceful protest. I’ll be the first to admit the horns annoyed me. I did everything in my power to try and get the horns to stop. I put out multiple videos on a regular basis saying stop, especially after the Court order came in on, I believe -- whatever date that was, the 7th.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So let’s pause there for a moment. The horns bothered you and prior to the Court order, which was an injunction to stop the horn honking, what steps did you take to limit the horns prior to the Court order?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Speaking to the drivers. It was getting everyone orientated, trying to get them situated in a place where they were safe and their needs could be met, I guess, seeing as our entry was –- was so messed up. I'll use the words. It was organized chaos, unorganized chaos. There was trucks everywhere. There was vehicles everywhere. The only thing I could do was put my videos out stating, you know, like, we're not here to disrupt residents of Ottawa. They didn't ask for this. It was -- the federal government is why we came and did what we could.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to show you a video and then a post from your Facebook, so we'll start with the video. This is HRF192. And again, this is one of your Tik Toks.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Then if we could pull up COM00000889?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you get an idea of what kind of guy I am on social media by that?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'll -- while we pull that up, would that be an example of you being a troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that's me being a funny guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
All right. So now I'm showing you -- if we could zoom out, so we can see this? We understand this to be a Facebook post from -- that you made on February 12th, 2022. To assist, I believe that is the character Buffalo Bill from the movie Silence of the Lambs.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And this is a joke about how -- that if the government doesn't get rid of the mandates, the horns are going to come back. Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then I'm going to show you one other Facebook post. That's COM00000888. And so in this one, this appears that you're sharing on February 13th a photo. I would guess this would be described as a meme of a boy blowing a bugle or a trumpet, being symbolized as the rest of Canada and then the Ottawa plugging their ears; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And first I'll ask you, are these two posts that you made on Facebook?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's my name. Like I said, things were so busy, I'm assuming I -- I shared that one, obviously. I would have probably shared the first one too. It was scrolling Facebook and seen it and just hit the share button. That was probably more, like, found it humorous at the time, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you look at the video we showed in these two Facebook posts, could you see why someone would question your sincerity when you say that you did everything in your power to stop the horns?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what would you -- again, you have an opportunity to speak to that. Is there anything you'd like to say?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't take back what I posted. I guess it was the excitement of the day on social media, flipping through social media, and seeing the post, and it's a click of a button to share it and put it out. Seeing it now, I'd say it's distasteful.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We can take that down. Briefly, I'm going to ask you some questions about efforts to move trucks onto Wellington Street, and I understand there was a few different attempts, and we're going to hear more evidence about it this week, but I have some questions for you. So we've heard the evidence that on February 14th after an agreement was reached with the mayor, you were involved in moving 4 [sic] large trucks up to Wellington Street; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was more than four, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I said 40. I may not have been clear.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Forty (40), yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, sure.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And prior to that, we understand that the Freedom Convoy group had made an effort to have the trucks on the Rideau and Sussex intersection moved onto Wellington Street; do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We made an attempt, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you tell me what happened with that attempt?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was successful with one truck. There was -- if there's -- there was a little -- it was a tractor trailer. He was parked near right by the war memorial. I remember the story on the -- he was parked sideways across the compete intersection. And law enforcement had tried to get him to straighten his truck out for quite some time and failed at it miserably. I remember it was easy. I walked over to the truck. I stepped up on the running board and I said, "Hey, Buddy, you're in the way really bad and you're causing us some grief. Could you just back it up against the curb, please, and you'll save us all a lot of trouble?" And he literally put the truck in gear and backed it up against the -- the OPP and the OPS officers were amazed it was that easy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the other -- were you able to move the other trucks on Rideau Sussex?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was not, no. Those were a different group there. It was harder to talk to them.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding at the time of who was in the Rideau and Sussex intersection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember there being a language barrier. There was a lot of Quebecers in that corner, right in the Rideau Sussex corner, so that -- yeah, I didn't have much interaction. I remember being there maybe twice to try and work something out, to get some lanes open, as per OPS and OPP's asking. I wasn't successful every time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as I -- I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, in your conversations with the OPS and OPP, you were trying to get a lane open for emergency vehicles; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you made an effort with the people at Rideau Sussex. It was unsuccessful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And other than the language barrier, was there any other reasons that that was unsuccessful to your mind?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were there, and they just refused to move. So I did what I could. I worked with law enforcement. I -- maybe it was twice Ms. Lich and I were there with OPS one day and I believe I was there by myself with OPS on a separate time. So probably twice I was there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you have -- at the time, were you familiar with the name the Farfadaas?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when the first time you heard the term Farfadaas?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
About a week ago, under a week ago.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the context of this Commission?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I understand it means leprechaun in French -- or in English, apparently. It was according to ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, we'll have a witness testifying later today who I'm sure can shed more light on the Farfadaas.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
More than me, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to now ask you some questions about the other protests that occurred outside of Ottawa in January and February 2022. While you were in Ottawa, did you have any communications or interactions with anyone who was participating in protests in Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe I was -- I don't believe so. If there was messages on my phone, they would be for people with no contact information, just phone numbers. I received so many text messages from so many different people. I don't want to say that I didn't because I may have. I never endorsed it. I never communicated openly with anybody from Windsor at all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did -- do you recall whether anyone asked you or anyone that you were working with in Ottawa for assistance with respect to the protest in Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If anybody asked me, I declined. We were never associated. We had our own -- we had enough to deal with here. We weren't worried about ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any interactions or communications with anyone participating in any of the other protests anywhere else in Canada? And I can give you examples if it helps, but I'm going to ask you generally to start.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I got text messages from some friends at Coutts. Never any -- just saying how things were going. Never any advice or never asked any questions to my recollection. They had their own thing going on there and it wasn't involved with us in the city here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were your friends at Coutts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's a couple guys that were down there. Just some local drivers that I've been friends with for years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were they?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
One man his name is Dan Sommerville. He was off and on. He was never an active participant. He went down just to check it out and come back. There was another guy, I don't know his name. I'd have to look at my phone. I know what truck he drives. I know what he hauls.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know this individual whose name you don't recall, do you know if he was participating in the organization of the Coutts protest or if he was a participant?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think he was just a participant, yeah. I don't know the organizers at Coutts or Windsor.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communications with anyone who was protesting in Emerson or Surrey?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would imagine text messages on my phone but not people that I'm familiar with.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Jeremy MacKenzie while you were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know who Mr. MacKenzie was during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I became aware of Mr. MacKenzie during the protest. Just know that he was veteran. We did a lot of work with the veterans when we were here, although I never seen Jeremy, that I know of. I met a lot of people during, but I don't recall meeting him or seeing him, or I've never spoke with him.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you familiar with the group Diagolon during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, not -- sorry. Not during the protest. Afterwards. My knowledge of Diagolon, it's a fictional -- it's a meme. It's -- it was something that Jeremy made up to troll, online troll.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you spoken with Mr. MacKenzie since the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Coming near to the end of our time, so I just have a few more questions for you. It's our understanding that after the Emergencies Act was invoked you were one of the people who had their bank accounts frozen; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell the Commission what that meant for you and what that was like?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, my bank accounts were frozen I believe on the day I was arrested, on February 17th. My corporate accounts as well as my joint accounts were frozen for the weekend, unfrozen, I believe, the Monday. My Toronto Dominion Bank account was frozen for upwards of three-and-a-months.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did that impact you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I learned how to use cash again.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned already that you were arrested on February 17th ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How has the arrest affected your life?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They -- I guess they kind of caught us off guard. They were really professional and really good to work with, I can't say a bad thing about anyone. I was walking with my son and three other of the road captains. So if you Google my name on the arrest you'll see a photo of my grinning. My son was there, he was 18 years old at the time, and I looked over at him and seen him -- that look he had as a 6-year-old or a 7-year-old kid where, you know, the tears were welling up. He was scared. And -- so I simply just said, "Hey, Bud, you're good", and grinned like that, and they caught me on camera, of course. And everything's been good since, it's just it's changed quite a bit.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What's changed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, the criminal charges now, and I've never had criminal charges. I've never been in trouble with the law before.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one final question for you. Is there anything that you think it's important for the Commission to hear that we haven't touched on today?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We touched all the bases. The truth is here, I have nothing to hide. As far as I know, we were doing everything within the law, according to legal counsel, and that was my main primary goals.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have the cross-examinations to go ahead. The Government of Canada I think is up first.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
This applies to all of us, I assume? The note about the translators, the reminder for the translators is still here.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW GIBBS
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Good morning.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrew Gibbs, and I'm part of the counsel team for the Government of Canada.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Gibbs.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So we've a fair bit of testimony this morning about the start of the convoy and the general organisation and the factions or divisions within the groups that preceded it. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So the spark, as I understand it, was you and Ms. Belton ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- meeting over TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you eventually organised with others to come to Ottawa to drop the border mandates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And that was your sole objective?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was my personal sole objective, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So to be clear, then, the others that eventually joined or started participating may have had other goals and objectives?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Quite possibly, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you're aware of some of those goals and objectives?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a lot going on, but yes, for the most part.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
For example, Canada Unity was seeking to sign an MOU that Commission Counsel spoke to you about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And others were seeking to I'll say "overthrow", but replace the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My understanding when it comes to the MOU, and I think that was the only thing that ever came up, was the fact that there was something in the MOU that said, and not necessarily overthrow, but hold the government accountable, apparently. I -- and like I've said before, I've never read the MOU. That was never anything that we came to Ottawa for. That was not even on the cards, and if anybody came to me stating that I would've probably told them to go home.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
I think you had mentioned you attended a Facebook Live interview?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And Pat King was hosting it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And I believe the MOU was presented during that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And do you recall Pat King saying that the objective was to tell the government who's in control?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He could've, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And to give them pink slips?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And a pink slip, you would understand, as removing them from their jobs? Firing them, essentially?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't speak for Mr. King, but possibly.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, as the group started joining you, I think we saw one TikTok video where you mentioned that -- this is -- and I believe your testimony as well today was that never expected this level of participation in your wildest dreams?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So many, many people joined this protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, it became a multi-purpose protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so. I stayed with my original beliefs of the border mandates. That was the one that affected me the most, that was the reason why I got involved. All the other mandates in place that I had issues were provincial mandates. So really, had no relevance here in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But some people in the group seemed to think they did.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so. Like I said, I can only speak for myself, and my primary goal was border mandates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And so during the Facebook Live, Mr. Bauder suggests that there will be a number of events that occur. And in fact, in addition to the Facebook Live, which was referenced at COM00000829, there is a separate video where you and the other organisers, Ms. Belton, Mr. Bauder, and Mr. King, are interviewed by Benita Pedersen. Do you recall that interview?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. It's in the record at COM00000838. And during that interview, and we can bring it up if you like, it again is a lengthy interview, over an hour and a half long, but it does speak to the activities or events that Mr. Bauder proposes to have. He also shares the MOU again, and suggests that one of the events will be to present that MOU to the Government of Canada or representatives thereof.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay? The last point that I would make, just with respect to that video, but I'll move on to the basic idea here, that there were, as you say, a number of factions or groups that were involved?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes? Okay. And you didn't have a vetting procedure to check who was going to be there?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We did not. This was a purely organic...
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And so as the announcements and the invitations started to come, the convoy that was planned, with Mr. Bauder's logistics, started to catch fire?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you had mentioned that all truckers are different?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, pretty much so.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it's a bit like herding cats?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if you put 200 in a room, somebody's going to get a black eye or a broken nose?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Primarily, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
How many did you bring to Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, many. Like I said, there would've been 2,500 vehicles in the West convoy. There was convoys from the East, convoys from the South, there was convoys... I don't know the numbers on how many people were here. There was a lot. On the weekends, it was very, very busy. It was very busy.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And is it fair to say that you couldn't control them all?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, I could not control them all.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Is it also not correct that you had a large flag on the back of your truck?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a -- yeah, it was a billboard sign I believe.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And what did it say?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember. It's hanging on the wall in my shop right now, but it's something about mandates I would imagine. I don't remember. If you could refresh my memory if you have it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Well, you -- I believe that -- perhaps you'll agree with me that there were many flags around town with the message "F Trudeau"?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I didn't have a -- on the back of the bunk of the truck I have a decal there that says that. I did not have a flag on my tractor that had that on it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So there was a decal on your truck with that slogan?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, a smaller decal up on the back of the bunk.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And would you agree that that became a bit of a rallying cry?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was surprised to see how many it was. Yeah, there was a lot. All the way across the country, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And were there other messages against the Liberals?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think it was just that, as far as I remember.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve seen a better rendition of it the other day. By the way, my thoughts have kind of changed on that a little bit. I seen a young kid a couple of days ago that said hi to me and he had a “Truck Trudeau” shirt on.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Same underlying message?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But probably a little more politically correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Right, but understood by ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- the crowd as being the same message.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would assume.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And encouraging children to share that message.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a child that had it, so...
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You’d mentioned to Commission Counsel that you were frustrated with the mandates.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you were -- I believe your testimony was that you were very angry.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And did this protest and convoy and general sentiment that you and Ms. Belton started, did that inspire others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it did. Of course.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
As part of your group, and this -- when I say “Your group” I’m referring specifically to the Freedom Convoy 2022; I think it’s you and Ms. Belton at one point, and Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And Mr. Bolden -- Bauder, sorry, by that point is outside of the group?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was always Canada Unity. I don’t believe he was ever part of Freedom Convoy.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And Mr. King has been kind of pushed ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- to the side a bit?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was separate, yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yeah? Okay. He still has a large following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I believe so.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I think we -- well, we heard reference to a video about social media on TikTok where Mr. King was attributed as saying that Mr. Trudeau was going to catch a bullet; you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard about it, yes. I don’t think I ever -- I’m not sure if I ever seen it or not.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Perhaps I can show it to you now. If we were to bring up, Mr. Clerk, OP00007967, and we’ll just -- I’d like to just play the first 20 seconds of it. It goes on. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Now, I believe you suggested that Mr. King had told you previously in a conversation that this was edited and taken out of context.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you will agree that it came to light during the protest.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I believe the second part of that video -- my understanding with that was that that was from a previous post, something to do with Indigenous lockdowns or Indigenous protests somewhere else in the country, where that bullet comment came from.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Right, but it was posted during the convoy.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was, yes, I believe.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And you yourself admitted, I believe, to Commission Counsel of being a bit of an internet -- or troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And having previously posted nasty racist and anti-Muslim content.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Regretfully so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you have a significant following now?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On the TikTok I do, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And Mr. King also has a significant following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. King, I believe, due to his conditions isn’t allowed on social media.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
At the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the time I think he had a significant following on Facebook. I don’t think he was on TikTok.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And we saw a discussion between you and Ms. Lich referred to by Commission Counsel where you and Ms. Lich discussed the need to keep him around if possible because of his following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So you’re aware that the Freedom Convoy group -- this would be your group -- put out daily briefings.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And these daily briefings, did you have input into them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not very often, no. My job was literally out with the trucks on a regular basis. I would come sit in at the end of the day and have conversations with other people in the group to get -- but I don’t remember being -- I remember being at the first news conference. I remember telling Ms. Lich that I didn’t want to be the one in front of the camera, but I would be the one that stood beside the one at the camera, and that was the only time I was -- I think I did a couple, but I was always sitting off to the side. My job was truck safety, truck issues; making sure everybody was looked after.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Looked after in terms of fuel and mechanics and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, fuel, mechanics, if any issues arose. Working with the police, that was my -- my main job was working with law enforcement.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And would you agree that the daily updates, the purpose of those was to inform the participants in your group of the daily events?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it was circulated each day?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it would be circulated in the morning, presumably?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That I can’t ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- with the weather for the day
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So if we can turn to HRF00000009, and this should be dated January 28th, if I’m not mistaken. Does this look like one of the updates that the Freedom Convoy 2022 group would have circulated?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It could have. I don’t really remember reading any of them.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, we’ll just walk through it briefly because there are a few of them that I’d like to bring to your attention. This one is dated January 28th. It provides that the Saturday weather is sunny, low of minus 21, et cetera, for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And then it’s giving the general update on the overview; you see the “Overview” paragraph there: “...will be the biggest protest movement in Canada - ever.” Would you agree with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if you scroll to Item 8, I just want to bring this to your attention because I believe you said earlier that the only purpose of this, your group, Freedom Convoy 2022, was to end the border mandate.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d noted that was my personal mandate.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Oh, okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was myself. I don’t speak for everyone on the group. So I didn’t have anything to do with these drafts on a daily basis. I was -- I was purely here for the mandates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So is there somebody we should be speaking to with respect to these daily updates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not even sure who produced these on a daily basis. I can’t speak to that. I -- like I said, I was out -- I literally got out of bed at 7 o’clock in the morning every morning, if not earlier, and was out with the trucks the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down, please.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- sorry -- the entire day. I was -- I was on the ground the entire time. At the end of the day, if something urgent arose, I didn’t take part in any of these updates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So you’d agree that you were one of the faces of the Freedom Convoy 2022.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Agreed, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
With the largest social media presence.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That could be contested. I’m not sure. I -- yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
By others in the power struggle, presumably.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could have been, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So Item 8 states: “Of note, Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland is on the Board of Trustees for the World Economic Forum. She is a key figure there along with President Xi of China, Bill Gates and other globalists. It was the Global Economic Forum that [started]: It is 2030. You will own nothing -- that stated [sorry]: It is 2030. You will own nothing and you will be happy.” Had you heard this message before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve seen it on social media before. I didn’t -- like I said, I never read this document, so I don’t know what would be in it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. There are a series of these daily briefings, often making reference to the World Economic Forum, and there is one at HRF0000029 on February 8th that refers to, at the top -- can we pull that one up, please? Again, this is February 8th, and there’s an image of the: “Covid 19: The Great Reset is from the World Economic Forum. Deputy Prime Minister Freeland is on the Board of Trustees of the WEF.” Again, had you heard of The Great Reset before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via social media posts. More so in the last six months. I don't recall seeing that or even hearing about it at the time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And what is the nature of your understanding of this book, The Great Reset?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've never read it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If you'll scroll to the bottom of this, there's a reference -- a section that deals with the -- if you go to the next page, tow trucks, refusing service. You see that section?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
"According to Ottawa City Manage[r] Steve Kanellakos..." Who testified earlier about the difficulty of obtaining tow trucks to the Commission, "...all tow truck companies under contract to the City of Ottawa are refusing to provide heavy tow truck services. This has been [-- sorry, this has been] a common occurrence right across Canada as tow truck operators are considering their long term relationships with the trucking industry as well as the Canadian public. Is that consistent with your understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. If we now turn to February 16th at HRF00000052, and this is the last or second to last daily update I'll bring you to. This one begins with a photograph of Prime Minister Trudeau with World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab. Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And underneath, there's a description of a, "Video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum. A video has emerged World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to this globalist organization. The video appears to have been taken in 2016 just after Trudeau became the Prime Minister..." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll to the bottom, there's a Twitter link there with TheNo1Waffler. If we scroll to the bottom, it ends with a photo of Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Do you see that photo?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And the caption reads, "Finance Minister Freeland seen here at a World Economic Forum event, says the government can arbitrarily seize bank accounts, crowd funding money and cryptocurrencies." Now this is issued on February 16th, this newsletter to your group, the faction of Freedom Convoy 2022; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Now on February 17th, another post is issued HRF00000083, which is a special notice issued by the group.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to note, you're out of time, but do you know if you'll be much longer?
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
I need about five minutes on these two points, sir, and they'll tie the two together.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you'll want to make it ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes. You have the post, and this is a, "Freedom Convoy 2022 Reaffirms its Commitment to Peaceful Demonstration" Correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in this notice, you'll see that it expressly condemns -- if we scroll down, one, two, three, fourth paragraph, "Pat King does not speak for us. We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And that accurately reflects your views at that time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Again, I had nothing to do with this document, so it would have been inside the meetings, I would assume.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
But in terms of your views of Pat King ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- that's an accurate statement from ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- your perspective?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And also, talk of violence from him or others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Were you aware, sir, that the night before, on February 16th, following the other notice with the photograph of Chrystia Freeland at the bottom, that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland received a death threat?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So if we can turn to PB.CAN.00001757_REL? And again, you had said earlier, your testimony here today is that you had no control over the people who had come to the protest in response to your open invitation.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And so have you seen this email before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have not, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
It's sent on Wednesday, February 16th at 1:23 p.m. to Chrystia Freeland, MP, and it reads, "I declare war on all the CANADIAN government for lying about covid-19. Chrystia Freeland will get a bullet to the head. Prepare to feel (our) WRATH! You'res [sic] truly, The CANADIAN covid government resistance. We will visit you at your home this Friday at 6 pm, so you better be hidden and be placed into protection because we know where you live." And signed Larry Jenkins. I assume you would reject this statement in any such action?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Unequivocally, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And the last question then is were you aware, sir, that on February 16th, the same day, the OPP apprehended someone in Ottawa who was wearing body armour and carrying a large knife along with other knives, a sword and machetes that were seized out of his truck?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not aware of that, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I will take you to OPS00011837.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Commissioner, I understand my friend's out of time and this witness has testified several times he has no knowledge of these things, so I'm wondering what the purpose of this is other than grandstanding.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure this is hugely helpful in the sense that he can't comment on any of these, but maybe you can just file it for the moment and try it on someone else when you have some time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, sir. So last question then is would you agree with me that when you start a fire and fan the flames, it can get out of control, and you had no control over those other factions who had come to this protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's where I spent a lot of time on the ground. I spent a lot of time working with people that were with the original convoy from the west and with people who were not with the west. If somebody had a concern, I said it on more than one occasion on my videos, if anybody has a problem, if anybody wants to yell at somebody, find my number and phone me and yell at me. I will gladly take it. The last thing I ever wanted was a letter like that. I had never -- I haven't heard that story up until now.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
It's understood. And I believe, sir, that you'd also confirm that you were not always successful in your efforts to convince the participants to agree with you or to follow you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Agreed, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that takes us, I think, to the morning break. So we'll take a little time. And so we'll take 15 minutes and continue on the return.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:50 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next -- I understand it’s the City of Ottawa wants to go next.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I think it’s more a request from the Coalition to go later, but I said we’re happy to go any time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then, let’s start with the City of Ottawa.
MR. CHRISTOPHER BARBER, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ALYSSA TOMKINS
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I’m just checking if it’s morning or afternoon. Good morning, Mr. Barber. My name is Alyssa Tomkins, counsel for the City of Ottawa. I just have a few questions for you today. We saw earlier in this proceeding that you had texts with Kim Ayotte, who is the general manager of Emergency and Protective Services of the City?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not sure of his role, but yes.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I’m just going to put them on the screen ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
--- to assist you in that regard. So if we could bring up document OTT, I think it’s 00030057. And these are the -- the text messages were produced by Mr. Ayotte, so I believe Chris, protestor, is you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m assuming so, yes. It looks like.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Yes. So if we could just scroll down to the third page. And I just want to talk to you a little bit about your role in moving the trucks and how far it got. So if we get to here starting with this exchange, we’re not at February 15th, which I believe is the Tuesday, at 8:30. And Kim is asking you how it’s gone moving the trucks effectively and, in particular, how many big trucks you were able to move. So if we could keep scrolling, please. Just the large trucks and not the pickups or cars, and then I believe this is your response, if we keep scrolling. Yeah, can you confirm that you provided this information to Mr. Ayotte; that it’s accurate and that -- any elaboration that you see fit?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So to my recollection, we moved approximately 100 vehicles out of the downtown core on that February 15th, 40 of which were tractors, semi units. And apparently approximately 23 were moved up onto Wellington in the one block.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. Now, when you say 23, what happened to the rest of the 40?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They moved out of town. They would have went to -- out exit -- we called that Exit 88, Armoire or Antrim ---
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Empire?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Antrim?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Yeah, Antrim truck stop, yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Antrim -- there’s two different ones and I always get confused with which one it was. It was the one on the East side of town anyway, so...
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. That was my next question was about the trucks leaving downtown. Now, after this, if we keep scrolling you -- we are -- it refers, I note in passing, to you tiring yourself out, so again, your weight loss. Sorry; if you could scroll up Mr. Clerk, apologies. So then Kim writes to you about running into trouble with any trucks, and then if we can scroll down to your response. I think keep scrolling. Yeah, so if you can just confirm that you wrote this to Mr. Ayotte, and then just provide a little more context for the Commissioner.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. So February 14th, we had a meeting at City Hall with Kim and Drummond, and I believe Steve, if I’m not correct?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Steve Kanellakos?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes. We left that meeting excited, ready to go out. We’d had an agreement that we were going to move as many trucks as we could out of the residential area, up on Wellington. Myself and three other road captains who were close with me went out and started speaking with the drivers, trying to figure out who was ready to move -- sorry; who was ready to move first thing Monday morning, who we could count on, and where we could get them to move. So 7 o’clock in the morning, rolled around Monday morning, February 15th, and we struggled with communication between police, City, and ourselves, as to who allowed the move. So we were on at 7:00 a.m. It was roughly, I’m thinking about 12:30, after lunch before the first police car actually moved and we were allowed to move. So my understanding, we had 72 hours to get as many vehicles out of the downtown core as possible. Something broke down, it was out of my control. We got as many trucks as we could that day, and I remember it was cold, and I -- at the end of the day I was -- I was wore out; I was done. It was a lot of walking; it was a tremendous amount of walking. Something happened at the end of the day, there was a breakdown. I believe Chief Sloly resigned. Something happened where the deal was off the table, and we were -- we were done. So I did everything in my power. We had so many more places on Wellington, we were -- we could have put more trucks. We mapped everything out, we had guys who were ready to move. We ran out of time in the day, on the Monday. And then planned to continue moving on the Tuesday. And, like I said, something fell apart; we were done.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. When you say, “Something fell apart”; you have no further evidence on that for the Commissioner?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My communication was with Nicole with OPS, and she’d explained to me that we had our chance -- I don’t remember how; my text messages are at the police station. But we had our chance, and we didn’t accomplish what we agreed to do, and the deal was off the table.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was different from what my understanding of what the day was. Where things fell apart, I still yet to understand.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. That’s -- those are all my questions, thank you very much Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. This is Jessica Barrow for the Ottawa Police Service. Our questions have already been canvassed, so we have nothing further for this witness. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I have no questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Sloly’s counsel? (SHORT PAUSE)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good morning.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I’m Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly. I just have a few questions about some facts, if you could help us. The trucks, first of all. I appreciate you don’t have a good, accurate count of how many vehicles were in the aggregate of the convoy, or even, I suppose, the western convoy; would that be right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can you tell the Commissioner, though, whether the trucks that came with you in the part of the convoy that you had initiated; were those independent operators?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. A lot of the major companies didn’t want the advertisements from their business names on the doors for company drivers, so I would say 95, 98 percent of the tractor trailer units were independent operators that would be affected by the border mandates.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And that probably relates, doesn’t it, to your inability to have all of them follow a particular, single set of instructions. Independent operator is more likely to be an independent thinker and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Generally, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And were those independent operators who came from the West operating tractors that had sleeping compartments?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a mix; I’m not sure of the numbers. A very small, what we consider -- they’re called day cabs, where it’s just the cab and no sleeper unit, a very small amount. I remember seeing a handful; yes, there was some -- a few there.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And a day cab operator is not -- by definition, that’s a person who’s not operating a vehicle a long -- on a long haul, unless they’ve got accommodation someplace else, which they wouldn’t normally have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so that for the drivers and operators who were in tractors with sleeper units, did they remain in their sleeper units during the period of the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d say there’d be a good -- a mixed bag. What I kind of realized, the community really came together, so there would be -- the trucks would have to run a lot because it so frigid. What one guy would do, would rent a hotel room and then cycle through drivers to get cleaned up and showered and looked after. The majority of the guys slept in their trucks in the night.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And they’d need fuel to keep running for the reasons that you’ve given; keep the unit warm?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, for heat.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so the fuel, did you recognize it as that, at -- I appreciate what you told my friends that you weren’t 100 percent sure how long this thing was going to last when you came?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Fuel wasn’t something we were worried about at the first. We didn’t know -- I didn’t know what to expect when we got here. I honestly, I had no clue. And so it was confusing to try and keep everything straight in a day.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And fuel became a challenge for you as a convoy organizer, and police and the residents in the community because of the safety; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It did, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And was that one of the things that you tried to work with police to minimize that risk?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember having conversations with some of the officers with regards to what we call a slip tank, which is a fixed 500-gallon tank in the back of a pickup truck with a hose and a pump, was a lot safer and a lot less risk of fuel spilling, compared to people walking around with 5-gallon jerry cans. That wasn’t -- that wasn’t the proper way to do things. And I tried to have a conversation multiple times to get more slip tanks in to put fuel in those trucks compared to safety hazards of the jerry cans.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. You hadn’t brought slip tanks yourselves?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No we didn’t.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. So there was -- in terms of the organization, the fuel and how you were going to provide fuel for trucks running past, say, the first weekend was not a part of the plan that you had; ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was not ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not at all.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And then a couple of things, you told us that -- told the Commissioner that you succeeded in moving the load -- I think it was a load safe truck that was on an angle at Rideau and Sussex?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Police had been unable to get that operator to cooperate; and even then, when you turned to the rest of the Rideau and Sussex operators, no luck at all?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I tried multiple times with Rideau and Sussex and -- good guys, really good guys. And they had a point, and they were protesting and -- yeah, we just had a difference. I did what I could, but ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
A couple of other things, and finally, if I could, Mr. Barber, told us, and I don't know want to know what the legal advice was, but early on in this effort, is it right that you turned your minds to what protests, what lawful protests looked like and what unlawful protests looked like?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were very fortunate that we had legal. We had lawyers fly in, I believe it was the first week, and we had guidance there. We had somebody that we could -- would tell us what our rights were because, you know, being truck drivers we're not all really good at litigating. So we had lawyers. We had people that could give us advice. We had -- there was a ton of advice there and it was very much appreciated.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Weren't able, necessarily, or maybe at all, to convey -- to put that legal advice into action across the whole spectrum of the convoys though?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And final thing, then. I think on the 7th of February, you became aware that police were intending to mobilise additional personnel in the number of 1,800. Am I right that that signalled to you as a convoy operator that there was going to be a police response coming?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it did, yeah. We knew it was inevitable at some point, I guess. We were hoping it wasn't. We were hoping were able to resolve the issues with the government and we could all go home, but that didn't transpire.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you knew as to that, the negotiation, that speaking to police, you've heard about the police, you probably saw them, the police.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I spoke with a lot of police liaison.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Liaison.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
They weren't able to -- they were never going to be able to make a -- to negotiate with you for the kinds of things that you wanted to speak to government about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, they were successful in negotiating between the City I believe and us, and then that was a step in the right direction. We were hoping that one step forward would maybe result in another step higher and we could have an audience. But it didn't...
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
With the Federal Government?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With some sort of Federal Government, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you for your time.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Residents.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Barber, my name is Paul Champ. I'm a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, and I have some ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mr. Champ.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I have some questions for you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think you probably -- you may already be aware of this, I'm from Saskatchewan as well, so we have that in common.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, I wasn't aware of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. We're both from God's land.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Whereabouts, may I ask?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Regina.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ah-ha, good.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I've been in your area many, many times.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is God's country.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I'd just like to start about the reasons why you were coming to Ottawa. It was about mandates generally or was it just the trucker the mandates, the -- or the border restriction that truckers could no longer enter or pass through if they didn't have ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can only speak for myself, but for me personally it was the border mandates. That was the last straw, per se, in the government going too far and wanting -- I needed my voice to be heard.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And government going too far, it was everything. It was the restrictions, the restrictions from going into restaurants, from, you know, school were shut down, all those sorts of things. It just built up and that was the last straw for you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There is so many different stories that I've heard throughout this ordeal that contributed to why we went there. When you're hearing stories of people's parents dying in a hospital bed alone ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- because mandates wouldn't allow their kids be with their adults when they took their last breath. There's -- you've seen the mental health issues in this country just plummet, it was sad. I watched that with my own children. My daughter was 16 at the time, was unvaxxed in high school, bullied by the rest of her classmates. Because she was -- wasn't vaccinated, she had to play a clarinet in a music class in a separate room.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The trucker mandate, in particular, though, the United States had a mandate in place at the same place, correct, so it didn't matter what Ottawa did?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it came in afterwards. I believe the Canadian Government announced the mandate first.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But many mandates that people were upset about were provincial mandates; right? I guess Ottawa is like a symbol of all levels of government for many of those people in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think honestly when it come to the provincial mandates they were a lot to deal with. They didn't affect my business to the way that the federal mandates affected my business. That was the driving. And I've struggled with it. Even though they have been place since then, it has still been a struggle the entire summer to try and keep with a lack of drivers and equip we can get across the border, but we've literally lost a lot of guys.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I want to ask you some questions about your arrival in Ottawa, since the Ottawa Police didn't ask you any questions about this. I want to understand. You believed that when you were coming to Ottawa, when you were in the last 100 kilometres, your understanding was that the trucks would be going to staging areas; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Outside the city?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. And to this day, I've never been to these parts, but my understanding across Canada was two staging areas. Major Hills Park and Confederate Park were the two places that the OPP... Now whether that message got mixed up somewhere along the lines, that is what I was told and that is what I understood coming across Canada, that we had places to stay, staging areas in these two parks. We had port-a-potties set up ready to go. They were prepared for us when we got there, and that turned out to be not true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when did that change? Like who informed you that you could just go to Downtown Ottawa instead, and when?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, OPS led myself and another truck, before the convoy was cut off at the War Memorial Museum there. It became clear to me then, with the amount of people downtown, with the amount of traffic downtown. And we slowly kind of worked our way to the Supreme Court is where I couldn't go any further, and that's where I was stopped. That's where my tractor remained for -- until I believe I removed it from the city on the 7th of February.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And where did you stay during the course of the protest? What hotel?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a hotel room.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were at the York Hotel for a little while, and then we moved to the Sheraton I believe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we -- I've seen a news story about your text messages you had with some of the organisers, and we've seen reference of you having texts with Mr. Lich on January 30th where she said that she had received a call from the Command Centre. What was the Command Centre for you guys?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember seeing that in my disclosure too. So the text message was to the -- something to the sort of "received a message from the Command Centre" was the basement at the Swiss Hotel. We had people there that were looking after EMTs. We had people on the ground to make sure people were safe in the crowds. EMT/RCMP, our police response.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was quite the operation. Tamara discussed the fact they wanted to ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Gridlock the city.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- gridlock the city.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. She said, "I don't want to make this decision on my own. Can you come -- head over here soon?" Did you go over to that meeting at the Command Centre?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember having that conversation with her, and even if it had happened, I went right back out to make sure emergency lanes were open with police. So I -- if there was a meeting it wasn't to gridlock the city, it would have been to keep the emergency lanes open. That was my primary job the entire time I was here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the trucks did gridlock the city, you would agree with me?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In certain spots they did, yes. Like I tried really hard to make sure ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
At least the emergency lanes were open.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Emergency lanes. I can tell you, I almost got into a physical altercation at least twice with a driver that was ignorant about moving when I asked him to.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about you told us that you were protesting about the trucker mandate at the border. Did you -- were you opposed to mask mandates as well?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I always -- I don't like a mask, it's not something that I really enjoy wearing ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- but in the Province of Saskatchewan where I'm from I always wore my mask. I like to look at it as I didn't want to have that business get in trouble if a health officer walked in the door and seen I was being ignorant and didn't wear a mask. So I'll admit when I was in Ottawa, I didn't wear a mask here. We were here for anti mandates. But I have always followed the rules wherever they are in every restaurant. When the COVID vaccine passport came out in Saskatchewan October 1st, I didn't go to the restaurant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In Ottawa, though, you'd agree with me that large groups of convoy protesters were going into stores and restaurants and shops all unmasked. Were you aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was never part of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You weren't part of that, but that was a protest tactic, wasn't it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not on my part. I believe that was more Canada Unity and James Bauder, I believe. That was something that was discussed in the January 13th. I remember watching it and listening to James talk about that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was a tactic that was discussed, but you weren't -- you didn't necessarily support it or take part in it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never took part in it, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware that in Ontario there was a law that stores and shops couldn't allow people in with masks and they'd be fined if they allowed that -- -
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- you were aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And did you hear stories about staff who were saying things, "people, please take -- put on a mask or leave", and staff being threatened? Did you hear stories about that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I was sick for a little while with a cold, a really bad cold, and I remember going into Shopper's Drug Mart downtown, somewhere near the hotel, and I had to put a mask on because the lady wouldn't serve us, and refused to serve us, so I put the mask on and obliged.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you some questions about the money. The money that was raised was meant to cover fuel and food and travel expenses for the truckers; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. It also covered hotel bills; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We never had any access to the money. We had a short stint of access. A lot of times, the drivers paid for their own hotel rooms. We had approximately -- I believe it was, like, $20,000. That's all the access we had to the money before I believe the bank accounts were frozen.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You're talking about the GoFundMe money?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the GoFundMe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but you guys raised an enormous amount of money outside of that; right? You were raising thousands of dollars a day in cash and etransfers; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the etransfers would have went into Ms. Lich's personal bank account.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And cash?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know what happened with the cash. The cash was -- there was always people donating cash. It was all around, I guess.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's an interview summary in this matter. I presume you're aware of Mr. Eros. You know Chad Eros?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Chad says that there was approximately $20,000 being raised in cash per day. Does that sound roughly accurate to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- he was the Freedom Corp. paid accountant. I had no knowledge of that. I wasn't involved with any of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He also speaks about how that occasionally, to get rid of all this cash on hand, they were putting it in envelopes, putting numbers on it and were giving it out to truckers. You were aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I took part in that spot, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You took part in that. So you were aware there was large amounts of cash.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't get to count the cash. I was given envelopes and I would go then see what drivers were in need of some cash and deposit or give them the cash.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So you were handing out -- it's my understanding those envelopes was between $500 and $2,000 per envelope?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
$500. There was another group that came in towards the end. The -- I believe Ms. Belton's group were handing out $2,000 apparently but ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- it didn't go as far.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the average trucker earns about 45 to $50,000 a year; is that right, Mr. Barber?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would say probably more. I -- maybe, I'm not sure, 70. It's kind of hard to live off $50,000 a year in this country now.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. For sure. Now the big amount of money that was raised that you could never access with GoFundMe nor Gift & Go, there was a lot of people wanting access to that money; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you guys had to deal with people opportunistically wanting to try to find ways to access that money from you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that would be a better question for Ms. Lich. I really never -- sorry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's fair. That's fair. Okay. Just getting back to the hotel bills though, your hotel bill was paid for by someone else; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was that Mr. Garrah that was paying for your hotel?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, we had -- there was a businessman that helped us out along the way, Mr. Bourgault. Mr. Bourgault. I believe he was feeding the bills for some of our hotel rooms and then mentoring us and helping us out with -- -
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about Mr. King, Pat King, his hotel bill was paid as well by your group; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he -- I don't know where Pat stayed. I was under the understanding he was outside the city somewhere in a RB&B or whatever they call it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Didn't Mr. King approach you at times asking if the war room or the command centre could provide a large amount of money to pay off hotel bills of other supporters?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall him talking to me personally about that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But him asking you to put you in -- him in touch with someone who had access to the money?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's a lot of things going on, on a regular basis, but I don't recall.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you now about the honking. Now as a truck driver, can you tell us what are air horns and train horns for?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So an air horn is a factory set of horns on a commercial truck, which is usually mounted on the roof of the cab operated by -- in my personal truck, it's a chain in the centre of the dash on the top and you pull it, it operates the two horns that are on the roof. A train horn is an after market. It is literally three large train horns with a valve. Usually guys mount them. I don't own a train horn. I've never owned one. It's mounted on the floor, and it's got a valve where you put more air to it to make a louder noise, I guess. They're obnoxious.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the purpose is because the trucks are so large to warn people from very, very, very far away that a truck is coming; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, the purpose in my opinion, personal opinion on a train horn is just ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, air horns or train horns, same ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's used for two primary reasons. One's for excitement. I always like to go back to the kids sitting on the side of the road, or when you have a vehicle pass you with kids in the back seat and they're doing the arm pump. That's the excitement part of an air horn. Then the other part of the air horn is the danger.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you're trained as a -- for your commercial license that air horns even in themselves can be dangerously loud; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But in this case, horns became a bit of a symbol for the truckers coming to Ottawa; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And a symbol for the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My truck was parked in front of the Supreme Court for -- from February [sic] 29th when we were arrived until I removed it from downtown on February 7th. So I don't believe I personally pulled an air horn after the ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That wasn't my question. My question was that the horns became a bit of a symbol for the protest.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They did. Yeah, they were everywhere, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And once the truckers parked -- you didn't, I get that, but many of the trucks were honking all day and night; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the first little while, yes. And those that wouldn't listen, we tried to reason with and get them -- I tried to reason with to try and get them under control.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And they were honking on a schedule of some type; correct? Like, it would be, like, 10 minutes straight for every 30 minutes or something like that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that. There was something to do with that. There was a couple guys in front of Parliament that were obnoxiously blowing their horn, I'll say.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the block captains were -- and road -- the block captains were coordinating within each other about how and when to blow the horns; were they not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was never part of my dealings. I involved myself in a couple of the block captain meetings, but for the most part, I didn't -- I don't remember hearing anything about that. I remember there being a curfew, what was it, seven to seven, or something like that, that somebody negotiated in the first week. My memory fails me on exactly what it was.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've told us, and you testified that you put out several videos asking the truckers to stop honking and respect the residents; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But isn't it true, Mr. Barber, that your videos were just telling them not to blow the horns in the middle of the night?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that. I remember -- no, the videos when I would yell -- I think there's multiple videos out there of me yelling stop and then there was daily hours, so I was sleeping at night, and to be honest with you, where I was in the hotel room, I don't remember the train - - or the horns actually waking me or having a hard time sleeping.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- just there's an HR -- I'm not going to ask to put it up because we don't have time, HRF183 is a video of February 1st from Tik Tok where you tell guys to stop honking and stop laying on the horns at 3 a.m., and the guys have stopped, which is nice. So you were asking guys not to lay on horns in the middle of the night?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'd have to see the video again to see that. I don't recall that video. I'm not saying it's not there, but ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or later that day?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It might have been in the evening, I would say. I remember -- yeah. I remember doing a video. I seen it in my evidence here last night where I showed the street in front of my hotel room with the trucks, and it was in the evening, and it was perfectly quiet.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You did put out a Tik Tok video on February 9th though, did you not, saying that if the police tried to come to a truck that they should -- notwithstanding the injunction, they should pull on their horns; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So in regards to that video there, in consultation with legal teams, we were instructed that the bunk of your truck was considered a residence and that police needed to have a warrant to breach the residence of your truck. And we were also instructed by legal counsel that in a case of something like that, what we -- what they were telling me -- I've never got involved with something like this before, so I have no idea what happens when police kettle, but in my understanding was if the police come and there are mass arrests happening, we were allowed to try and warn the other drivers. So, yes, there was a video. It's in evidence, I believe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's HRF000217, for the record. And, Mr. Barber, Mr. Wilson has put in an interview summary and we're going to hear from him tomorrow where he says that you were asking truckers to implement the quiet hours and to only honk between eight a.m. and eight p.m.; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, there was a -- there was some sort of a deal in the first week or so. We were allowed to honk during the days apparently, so, yeah. I'm trying to play by the rules. If I ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A deal with whom?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think with the City. I was never involved with the inner workings of the deals with the City, other than when we did the truck move, or the court injunction, or something to that affect. There was a deal out there and I'm not -- I don't remember exactly.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I think we might -- I think we heard a little bit of evidence that Mr. Wilson and Ms. Chipiuk were trying to negotiate with the City saying if the truckers agreed to not oppose the renewal of the injunction to only keep honking between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m., so they were trying to get a deal like that, as I remember.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could be possible. They worked behind the scenes relentless. They were honestly godsends. They were -- they were right there with us for help.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because the truck horns were all day. Even all day was quite ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were annoying. I remember a Sunday service in front of the stage and we were trying to listen to the pastor do the sermon, and you couldn’t. It was kind of like -- but that was in front of Wellington, and that was, I believe, in the first week, so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a last couple questions, Mr. Barber. Have you ever met or communicated with Tyler Russell?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know that name.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Derek Harrison?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know that name, either.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Have you ever met or communicated with Alex Green?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And have you ever -- you’ve already been asked about Mr. MacKenzie.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If I had, there’s -- like I said, my phone was extremely busy. There’s a ton of numbers on that phone. If there would be no contact name with it, there might have been somebody contact me, but not to my knowledge, I should say, right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I understand. All right. Thank you, Mr. Barber. Those are all my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, Mr. Champ.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’ll call on the CCLA.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Mr. Barber. I’m going to be asking you questions via Zoom. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pleased to meet you.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
My questions are going to focus on the impact of the orders freezing the bank accounts. So I understand from your earlier evidence that your bank accounts were frozen during the course of -- or after the protest. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they were.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can you just please specify for me, was it your personal account that was frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there were three major accounts that were frozen. One was the corporate account. The other one was a joint bank account with my lovely wife. And the third was Toronto-Dominion personal bank account. The personal bank account with Toronto-Dominion was closed for roughly three and a half months. I had no access to funds. The other two bank accounts were -- they were closed for the weekend. A couple payments went back. I had one NSF charge, which I believe, and the fuel cards got shut off for my drivers. They weren’t very happy.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And so let me just break that down. The fuel cards for your drivers, are those business credit cards?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In my line of business with the trucking company, we run cardlock cards with different fuel distributors, and I have agreements with those fuel companies to withdraw all payments automatically out of my accounts every Sunday so I’m up and current on my fuel bills.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And are those linked to your corporate account, then?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they are.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so when your corporate account was frozen, then the fuel cards were also inoperative?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that they were frozen on the Sunday, so is that -- would that be the Sunday, the 20th of February?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Twentieth (20th). They would have been frozen on the 17th, I believe. My bank manager at CIBC explained to me that they were reopened on Monday. She wouldn’t give me details. She’d explained to me that she got an email from RCMP saying it was an illegal freeze or something and that they were reopened right away. But Toronto-Dominion was a different story. They -- Toronto-Dominion was closed without any excuse. I tried desperately to get a hold of somebody from Toronto-Dominion to explain to me why my accounts were frozen, and I have yet to receive an explanation.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so with respect to when your accounts were frozen, were they frozen before or after you were arrested?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe they were frozen on the day of. We weren’t -- I wasn’t really using a debit card. All the stores were closed downtown, so I believe the 17th is when they were frozen.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And you were informed that they were frozen. With respect to your corporate account, your CIBC corporate account, it was someone at CIBC who informed you that they were frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so. I don’t think I knew that the corporate account was frozen until -- I didn’t have a cell phone, so I couldn’t check balances or anything until I got back home, I believe.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was only after the fact when you came home that you learned that it had been frozen by a letter from CIBC or by a telephone call?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That I can’t recall. I don’t remember if I got much correspondence. I’m personal friends with my banker at CIBC, so she may have sent me a text message. I didn’t have a phone, so I can’t recall.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And your T-D bank account, how did you learn -- the personal one, how did you learn that that was frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The debit card wouldn’t work.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that you tried to obtain information from T-D as to why it was frozen and why it took so long to reopen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you did not get -- did you get a satisfactory answer?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, I didn’t. I was given a phone number and a first name, and when I called that number, I was -- just a short answer. I believe I spoke with him. He called me back once. I kind of made it a point to call him every week to question him on why, and I never did get an answer back.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was the first name and phone number that you received, it was someone from T-D Bank?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was, yeah. Somebody in Ontario, I believe.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And did you ever receive any correspondence from the RCMP or the OPS with respect to the freezing of your bank accounts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And can you speak to me first about the impact of the freezing of your corporate bank account, what impact did it have on your business? You mentioned the cancellation of the fuel cards. Can you elaborate on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, cancellation of my fuel cards. So I had to remake the payment. The fuel cards were shut off because of the lack of payment. There was an NSF charge. One that happened down the road a little ways, I applied for a loan and was going to put a significant amount of cash down -- money down on the loan for a deposit and I was rejected from my financing company because of my -- because of the account being frozen, apparently. I don’t know. They wouldn’t really explain. They just said I was declined the loan, and I have a perfect credit rating. I have never been in trouble with credit. It’s been years since I’ve been in trouble with a credit rating, 20- some plus years, I would say, so I stand good with the banks.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And with ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was a little tough.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, sir. With respect to the fuel cards, for how long were your drivers not able to use the fuel cards to supply the vehicles?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would imagine it was a matter of a day or two. I was into the bank right away. I was home, so I was able to get into the bank and make the payment right away. And fuel companies are good, but they get pretty nervous when a payment gets returned.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m sure everybody does. And sir, with respect to your personal bank account, you said that -- how did that impact? Can you provide a little bit more elaboration on how it impacted you? You said that you had to use cash. Can you elaborate what you mean by that or how it impacted you to have your personal bank account frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It changes everything you do. You don’t realize how much you use the debit card in your pocket, I guess. I went back to -- as any Canadian, I apparently keep a small stash of cash for emergencies, and that got used. I had to go back to cash for the time being.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, sir. Those are all my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Appreciate it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, JCCF and Democracy Fund.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTOINE D’AILLY
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Antoine D’Ailly. I’m counsel to Citizens for Freedom representing the peaceful protestors in Windsor.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Appreciate it.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mr. Barber, you indicated that you led a convoy of trucks from out west to Ottawa and that you were a point of contact with local police forces along the way. Have you had -- have you ever had any contact with the Windsor Police Service?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. You indicated that while you were travelling across the country, one of your primary responsibilities was dealing with logistics, listening to the radio chatter. Do you ever recall receiving or responding to any requests for support from the demonstrators in Windsor, whether it’s, you know, request for trucks or other logistical support?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so, no. There was -- it was a busy phone. I may have missed something. I don’t remember or recall ever receiving any contact.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And if you did receive this type of request, is this something that you would have brought up with your internal leadership team?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. We were busy here enough. We weren’t worried about Windsor, Coutts or anywhere else.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And so the convoy that you were leading across the country to Ottawa, that did not pass through or anywhere near Windsor, Ontario. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It did not, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And were any of the road captains or other trucks that were part of your convoy, were any of them, to your knowledge, dispatched to Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Now, earlier this morning, you were shown a TicTok video where you’re talking about, “Let’s hit them,” presumably the federal government, “where it hurts,” and I’d like to paint some clarity from you on that statement. So, in this case, when you say, “Let us hit them,” “us”, in this case, you’re referring to the convoy and its supporters; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, against the mandates.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in terms of “where it hurts”, was one of those places you were referencing the Ambassador Bridge or were you focused exclusively on attending a protest in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Exclusively attending the protest in Ottawa.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And so, to the best of your knowledge, did any of the core organizers of the Freedom Convoy attempt to establish any kind of slow roll or any type of blockade in Windsor for the purposes of impeding border traffic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not to my knowledge.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So is it, then, fair to say that from your perspective, blocking ports of entry or impeding traffic at any port of entry, whether that’s in Windsor or in Sarnia, was not an objective of the convoy organizers?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, we had nothing to do with Windsor. That was -- as far as I know, they more issues at those border crossings, from what I watched on social media lives. It wasn’t the same thing as what we were doing here.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And when were you first made aware that the demonstration at the Ambassador Bridge had been cleared by police?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t remember or recall when -- I don’t know the story there. I didn’t pay enough -- like, I said, it was so busy here, I didn’t have time to pay attention to anywhere else.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough, okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I appreciate your time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The convoy organizers.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Miller.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How are you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m very well, thank you.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for the Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters, including yourself, that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Good morning. How are you feeling?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Feeling good, thank you very much.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, first question, if at any time during the protest and the demonstration if the City of Ottawa or the Ottawa Police Service provided you, the truckers and the protesters, an order from the court saying that you had to leave or move your trucks out of downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A court order?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I assume we would have left, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And I understand you’ve -- and we’ve discussions, and you’ve had discussions with legal counsel. You understand what invoking the Riot Act now mean, do you not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Approximately, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And so if a mayor, sheriff, or justice invoked the Riot Act and ordered that you and the protesters and the trucks left downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Instructed people to leave.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it’s fair to say, as Chief Sloly testified, at no time did any police officer or city official come and tell the protesters that they were illegally parked and illegally, unlawfully protesting and had to leave; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge. At that point, my truck was out of the city. I had no equipment here.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So my friend asked you about the Memorandum of Understanding drafted by a Mr. James Bauder and his Canada Unity organization. I have a few questions about that. So these Canada Unity folks, to your knowledge, how many of them were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hard to say. I honestly don’t know. James Bauder was the only one at the time that I knew. There was different people, I think, representing him.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So how many Canada Unity folks did you interact with that you knew were representing him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe none.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe none.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you observe Mr. Bauder or anyone else that may have been with Canada Unity to be violent, commit any violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you hear of any of these Canada Unity members act in a violent way or try to incite violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you hear any of these Canada Unity members state they wanted to overthrow of Government of Canada by violent means?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never heard anything.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it that you asked your lawyers in Ottawa at the time, being Keith Wilson and Eva Chipiuk, about this Memorandum of Understanding from Canada Unity; isn’t that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t recall having a conversation with them. I believe it might have been a conversation in the group of people together that it had no bearing and it wasn’t to be looked at. It was essentially nothing.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you remember the lawyers describing it as “legal nonsense”?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I do, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I also understand, of course, you’ve had some interactions with Mr. Pat King and, as well, some of his followers. How many followers did Mr. King have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think Pat had a substantial following on Facebook, I believe.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, no, I mean physically in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, there was a few. Absolutely, there was a few.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How would you -- “few” is a bit of a weasel word. Do you mind if I -- you can clarify? What number would you estimate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were so many people here, so many people with every different background, I would -- I don’t even know if I could guess, Mr. Miller.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you observe Pat King or any of his followers carry out any acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you hear Pat King or any of his followers incite protesters in Ottawa to commit acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Pat King or any of his followers ever state to you that they’re going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Never, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what about this Jeremy MacKenzie fellow; did you ever hear of him seeking that protesters act violently or incite people to commit violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Jeremy MacKenzie or any of his followers or veterans that you know of say that they were going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
None.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And lastly, of course, Ms. Tamara Lich, how’s your relationship with Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Definitely strained over the last however many months it’s been with the court order against us contacting each other. So yeah, I met her. I spent approximately a month with her and got to know her quite well. She’s a genuine -- a good person. And then I only get to see her now through legal counsel. So some day maybe we’ll fix that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I take it that -- how tall is Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pretty close to midget height.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, she’s about a midget. And ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not even going to look at her. I’m not ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But she’s -- I take it she’s still a very scary lady; is she not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s the short ones you really have to worry about, not ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, yeah, of course, like Napoleon.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. So she’s the Napoleon of truckers; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, did the Napoleon of truckers, Mr. Lich, did she ever say to you that she intended to carry out an act of violence while she was in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t think she’d harm a butterfly. No, she would never say that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and she -- I take it she also -- you never saw her assault anyone or commit any violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it she never said to you that she was here in Ottawa to violently take over the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, my friends asked you some questions about what I refer to as collusion with some of the other protests that were outside of Ottawa, right? So you had the big ones. You had Coutts, Windsor, as well as the ones in Manitoba, and another one in Surrey. To your knowledge, did any of the truckers or protesters at all, in all of Ottawa, to your knowledge, have any coordination whatsoever in setting up these other protests outside of Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, they were all -- as far a I understand, they were all organic movements.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you heard the evidence from Chief Sloly as well as Commissioner Carrique, they speculated that it was possible that the one protest in Windsor was coordinated with Ottawa just based on the geographical distance between the two and the splitting of resources; do you have any comment on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t agree with that assumption. I can’t see -- being how organic the movement was, honestly, I’d say we weren’t smart enough to come up with that idea.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that’s a fine admission. Now, if -- Mr. Register, if you wouldn’t mind putting up document HRF00000052, it’s the one that Canada, for the Attorney General, put to my client earlier. Now, did you have a chance to review this document before the questions that were asked of you of the Attorney General today?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe I did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can we just give you a quick moment to do that? And so, Mr. Register, if you could scroll down there. So there, and just for summary for the folks at home, you have a heading with Ottawa weather, inspiration thoughts for the day, a video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum, a CTV poll on the Emergencies Act which states that 81 percent of people disapprove of it, financial supporters. Scrolling down, Quebec drops mandates, feds scrap pre-arrival PCR tests, British Columbia drops capacity limits, bank run, crypto bank, the picture of Madam Deputy Prime Minister, another Albertan, and daily humour?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you see anything invoking violence in that document?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you know of any of the documents that are like that, the daily briefings that ask for violence or sought violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't -- I don’t think I read any of them, but I would say no, there wouldn't have -- there was never any talk about it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I'd like to bring up, if I may, Mr. Registrar, the other document that Canada put up which is HRF00000083. Okay. And you were -- it had -- well, it was put to you the video of Mr. King, Pat King, was put to you with respect to the bullets comments, and this was the media release, I take it, that was released in response to that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The dates seem pretty far apart for that. I believe the bullets comment was earlier, so I'm assuming this was the day I was arrested, so I have this one.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Do you want to have a read?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Yeah, I didn’t review it at the time, but I've seen it now since.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it -- do you agree with those statements there?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. And I also understand that with respect to the daily security briefings, the one that we looked at earlier, you weren’t involved in drafting any of these?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you didn’t review any of them before they were sent out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, with respect to the mandates -- and I just want to touch on that briefly -- can you tell the Commission about how the mandates impacted your children, other than what you already have with respect to your daughter's clarinet story?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I got a 19-year- old son, Jonathan. He was 18 at the time. He's refused to get the vaccine. He's been around people with COVID multiple times and he's yet to catch it, for some reason. So he's going off his natural immunity. He's a fairly strong-willed guy. I don't know where he gets that from. He refuses to get it, and I stand by him.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what else? Anything else, other than what you've already said?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My parents, my father received his second dose of this -- and it could be together or not -- his gallbladder quit working on him, and I watched my father deteriorate quite badly. He's fine now, but still, you lose that body mass, you don’t seem to get it back at 70 years old, so ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I want to move on from that and talk about some of the moving of the trucks. I understand at some point in the protest in Ottawa, you moved your trucks from Wellington -- or your truck out of the city to a (audio skip) camp?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February 7th, to my best recollection.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And is it true that when you were trying to leave downtown Ottawa that the police roadblocks made it very hard for you to leave?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was very tricky, yes. So there was roadblocks everywhere.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So can you describe for the Commission your initial moving your truck and trying to get out of downtown Ottawa and just sort of walk us through on a timeline?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was February 7th, I believe. I was parked in front of the Supreme Court so -- and I still didn’t really know my way around Ottawa that well at that time, so I remember going down whatever street would have been near there, Lyon or somewhere in there. It was tough. It was hard to navigate your way back out of there and then make sure you were on the right street that was heading the right direction. So eventually made my way out of the city. It was tough.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And how did you get past the barricades and the blockades?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You had to get a police approval to move every single barricade. There was the police there. There was -- when we first arrived in Ottawa, the city officials used payloaders, graders, and trucks to blockade the streets for safety concerns or whatever it was they did, and then when the snowfall came, the first snowfall came, I remember they removed all that and they replaced them with concrete barriers, and then a police car would sit at each barrier in the centre and would be able to move to allow traffic to go through.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And to your knowledge, was there any incidents of any of the truckers and protestors trying to leave but could not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, if somebody needed to leave, we would facilitate that no matter what. We -- -
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I mean is, with respect to moving the police barricades.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh. No, it was a job to get somebody out of the city, but nobody ever was -- had troubles, wasn’t forced to stay, if you're meaning that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sounds good. And with respect to you walking the streets during the protest, what did you see?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Life changing. Yeah, it was amazing. There was so much grown men crying on your shoulder, women crying on your shoulder, grandmas, grandpas, you name it, kids. It was really -- and it is an experience, unforgettable.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is there anything notable, do you remember, of who you spoke to?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Who I didn’t speak to. It was everybody. You couldn't -- I remember Mr. Marazzo and I went for a walk and Mr. Wilson, and it was like, Mr. Wilson explained it was like walking on the street with Mick Jagger, he said, because no matter where you went, there was somebody wanting to stop and talk with you. It was -- there was a lot of love.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you tell us about the efforts to move the trucks on Monday, February 14th?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Frustrating. We had all those trucks ready to go, seven o'clock in the morning. We had spoke with them the night before on the Sunday. We had the streets lined up. We had everybody all placed. We had organized trucks to come. I don't remember the block. It was right in front of Parliament on the -- pretty much on West Block. We were able to -- we get them all organized, all warmed up, and then we couldn't get anybody to move. The police wouldn't move, the city officials. You could tell by my text messages with Kim that it was frustrating. We were ready to go and we were deprived time to get things going.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So at that point in time, the police blockaded you in ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- from leaving?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Even though you were trying to leave?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were trying to -- I don't know if the trucks leaving had trouble, as much trouble as the trucks trying to get up onto Wellington. That was what my focus was. My focus was only getting the trucks onto Wellington. Other guys looked after the ones that wanted to leave the city.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So from where the trucks were parked, did the police move the barricades to allow you out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm assuming so. I didn’t take part in the actual leaving. Like I said, my focus was trucks onto Wellington.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you were up at Wellington at that time, and you went down when the trucks were trying to get out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand during that time, that you were able to get approximately 100 trucks and protest vehicles to leave downtown residential areas, which included 40 semi trucks, of which 23 went up to Wellington; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were aware that the vehicles that left downtown and did not go up to Wellington, they were either went home or they went out to a base camp in Arnprior or Embrun; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you had cleared out two blocks on Albert Street and from some other streets; is that about right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In the time we were allotted, we cleared out the two blocks. We had plans to clear out more.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just hold on a minute? Yes?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It's David Migicovsky for the record. I did not object initially but I do understand that the rules of the Commission do not allow counsel for the parties to cross-examine, and my friend has been cross-examining on several occasions. This is a matter of some contention, so I would just ask that his questions be phrased in a non (audio skip).
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So okay. Not a problem. So can you tell me about then how many trucks do you believe were moved in total?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was told 100 vehicles, approximately 40 trucks, 23 of which we moved up onto Wellington.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And while you were involved in the protest and in Ottawa, did you attend any businesses in (audio skip)?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
(Audio skip) frequented the Tim Horton's for meals. We frequented any restaurants that were open. Any business that I was in, the Iconic Café was another one, Shawarma, any business that we were in flourished. They did really well. Then they said -- a lot of the businesses said they hadn’t profited so much in the last two years as they did in that three weeks.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And during that time period, what was your relationship like with those business establishments, their staff, and owners, during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Want to -- a little bit about it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember the Tim Horton's on one of the corners there, truckers were mopping the floor because the staff was overrun, and guys had the mop pail out and they were cleaning the floors. Of course it's wintertime, sloshy and disgusting floors. I was pretty proud to see that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did any of the business owners approach you before the end of the protest about anything they wanted to say to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I recall, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you've seen throughout this proceeding witnesses discuss views on assaultive or threatening behaviour and what that means. You've seen that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I understand that you heard a statement from the Prime Minister where he called unvaccinated Canadians racists, misogynists, and asked "should we tolerate these people?" Do you remember hearing that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember hearing that, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What's your perception of that? Would you say, in your opinion, is that assaultive or threatening ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just -- let's be careful again. You've got to...
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood. What was your perception of that statement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very divisive for a leader of a country to be pitting one person in the country against the other person. I would say I felt, you know, not very leadership worthy.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And have you experienced assaultive and threatening words and behaviour from other politicians or others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've seen some in the news reports, I guess, yeah, there's a few. Not that I can recall the names of the ministers, but there's been a few.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, thank you. Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Commissioner.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
A few points of clarification based on some of the answers you've provided, Mr. Barber. In response to questions from counsel for former Chief Sloly, you indicated that in your efforts to speak to the protesters at Rideau/Sussex, you said -- I think you spoke to them, and you said they had a point. Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember what their point was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember what their point was. They -- no. There was a barrier, an -- a language barrier there because they were French Canadians. So my French is -- I don't speak French so I had a hard time understanding them.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when Mr. Champ was asking you questions, I thought I heard you mention that Ms. Belton's group was one of the groups that was handing out cash. Did I hear that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was sort of a rift, sort of a split between the two groups. Ms. Belton's, yeah, when I heard the $500 versus the $2,000, that was -- Ms. Brigitte's was trying to -- the group of people that were donating that were passing $2,000 instead of the $500.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did Ms. Belton's group have a label?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't think so, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how many people were in Ms. Belton's group?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- that I can't say, 10, 15.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then again, in response to questions from Mr. Champ, you mentioned a Mr. Bourgault.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you -- do you know Mr. Bourgault's first name?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Joseph.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just the Commission a bit more about what Mr. Bourgault was doing and your interactions with him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, Joseph Bourgault is a good friend of mine. He is a big business owner in the Province of Saskatchewan, a well-respected man, and he offered his services to mentor. He spoke to me on a regular basis just on protocol and advice, and a really good guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was he providing financial support to the protesters?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I think at first our bank accounts were all -- like we had no money coming in. GiveSendGo or GoFundMe wouldn't release any funds to us, so we were financially strapped for the amount of hotels. So hopefully someday we can pay that back.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, I don't think I got the answer there.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Mr. Bourgault provide financial assistance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did he provide financial assistance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With hotel rooms.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Krajewska, from the CCLA, was asking you about bank accounts that were being frozen. And I -- as I understood the TD account you spoke about you said it had been frozen for 3.5 months?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why it was frozen for that long?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To this day, I still don't know. I would imagine it had something to do, Ms. Lich added my name to her Toronto Dominion Bank where the funds, the GoFundMe funds went into for the GoFundMe, the one million, and then the e-transfer. For transparency she added myself to her bank account so everything was out in the open, there was two sets of eyes looking at it. She was -- the biggest worry for her was that somebody would accuse her of misusing funds, which wasn't the case.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the TD Bank account you're referring to, that was an account that originally was opened by Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a personal Toronto Dominion. So all she did was merge the two savings accounts, so I could physically see her savings account on my card. That's the only thing that I assume had to do with why my bank account was frozen for three-and-a-half months.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you had a pre-existing TD account ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and then Ms. Lich added you to the account that she had created for the purposes of getting the GoFundMe ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- funds?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, for the purposes of transparency so that the -- there was more eyes on that account than just hers.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then my final area to examine is we've heard a little bit more about Confederation Park or Major Hills Park. Did you ever see Confederation Park or Major Hills Park?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm hoping I can this week. I have never seen it, I have only heard about it. So that'll be on my list to do after this Inquiry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what use is made of that park normally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no idea.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I just have a couple of questions. They're probably just general in the sense of what would be the cost of the fuel to have driven here from Saskatchewan?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With today's fuel prices, roughly about $3,000 probably in fuel to come out here from Saskatchewan. It was quite the feat.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just one thing I wanted to follow up up on was the -- you were -- one of your main functions or certainly what you were doing was to try and keep the emergency lanes open.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you said there were some that you just couldn't keep open, and I think you mentioned Rideau. Is that ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Rideau was the hard one. There was -- Rideau was the one we tried multiple times. The other one was somewhere on Kent I believe.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We tried really hard to keep Kent open. I remember the first time we visited Kent, we worked all day, we got that lane wide open, and we were so proud of ourselves. We came back the next morning and it was completely plugged again. We kind of -- we kept working on them.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So those are two areas where the lanes just couldn't be kept open?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there other areas that you found either you couldn't keep open or were regularly problematic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To my recollection, everything was well looked after other than those two areas. Those were the only two areas of concern that I felt that I had troubles with personally, and the group of people that I was with.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And would that be because they were not, among other things, they weren't part of your group? Is that -- or is it were they part of your group, some of them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the Rideau/Sussex was not part of our original group. They were there a day or so before we arrived. Kent may have been. I didn't recognise all the trucks. There was some in Kent that was part of the original West group, I can confirm that, yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And that's -- those are my questions. So thank you very much for coming. And ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we'll -- we will adjourn for the lunchbreak. We'll take an hour for lunch and come back with another witness.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.
The Clerk (POEC)
Order, à l’ordre. Order, à l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commisaire.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, bon après-midi, good afternoon.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Notre prochain témoin est M. Charland, M. Steeve Charland.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
The Clerk (POEC)
Monsieur Charland, voulez-vous prêter serment ou faire une affirmation solennelle ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
The Clerk (POEC)
Vous avez le choix, de prêter serment sur un document religieux ou de faire une affirmation solennelle.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je vais prendre l’affirmation solennelle.
The Clerk (POEC)
Parfait. Pour les fins du procès- verbal, s’il vous plait veuillez indiquer et ensuite épeler votre nom en entier.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Steeve Charland. S-T-E-E-V-E C-H-A-R-L-A-N-D.
The Clerk (POEC)
Affirmez-vous solennellement que le témoignage que vous allez rendre devant le Tribunal, devant la Commission, sera la vérité, toute la vérité et rien que la vérité ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je l’affirme.
The Clerk (POEC)
Merci.
M. STEEVE CHARLAND, SOUS AFFIRMATION SOLENNELLE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commissaire. Avant de commencer avec mes questions, mon confrère Nicolas St- Pierre, qui est l’avocat de M. Charland, est dans l’audience et il aimerait faire une objection.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. (COURTE PAUSE)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…vers le micro, c’est pour les fins du dossier.
Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel (Steeve Charland)
Merci. Donc Nicolas St- Pierre, pour les fins du dossier, je représente M. Charland. Donc M. Charland fait face à certaines accusations criminelles découlant de la manifestation qui a eu lieu à Ottawa, donc pour ces fins, donc nous invoquons l’article 5 de la Loi sur la preuve.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Je comprends et je considère que le témoin s’oppose à répondre à chaque question pour le motif que ses réponses pourraient tendre à l’incriminer ou tendre à établir sa responsabilité dans une procédure civile ou criminelle, quelle qu’elle soit. Et si, sans la présente loi, ou toute loi provinciale, le témoin eut été dispensé de répondre à cette question, alors bien que le témoin soit, en vertu de la présente loi ou d’une loi provinciale, forcé à répondre - puis j’entends, je comprends qu’il est sous sommation - sa réponse ne peut être invoquée et n’est pas admissible en preuve contre lui dans une instruction ou procédure pénale exercée contre lui par la suite, sauf dans le cas de poursuite pour parjure en rendant ce témoignage, ou pour témoignage contradictoire. Alors, on tient pour acquis qu’il s’est objecté pour chacune des questions.
Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel (Steeve Charland)
Merci beaucoup.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ça suffit, alors merci.
INTERROGATOIRE EN-CHEF PAR Me ALEXANDRA HEINE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors bonjour, Monsieur Charland, mon nom est Alexandra Heine et je suis avocate de la Commission. Alors j’aimerais vous poser quelques questions aujourd’hui au sujet de votre participation au Convoi de la liberté qui s’est déroulé au mois de janvier et février 2022 à Ottawa. Le but de mes questions est d’aider le Commissaire avec son mandat. Pour commencer, je vais vous montrer un document, et Monsieur le greffier si vous pouviez s’il vous plait montrer le document SAE-11, c’est votre déclaration de preuve anticipée.
The Registrar (POEC)
This is the clerk speaking. For the record, we do have the French version available. It -- the doc ID for that is SAE00000010.FR.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If you could please put that one up. Thanks. Alors Monsieur Charland, est-ce que ce document est la déclaration de preuve anticipée que nous vous avons envoyée ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et avez-vous eu la chance de réviser cette déclaration ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Êtes-vous d’accord avec son contenu ou aimeriez-vous faire des corrections ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, les corrections ont déjà été apportées.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors vous vivez dans la région Grenville-sur-la-Rouge au Québec.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Où se situe cette région ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Entre Montebello puis Lachute.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et vous êtes travailleur autonome dans le commerce du bois de chauffage. Pourriez-vous nous expliquer à quoi ça ressemble être travailleur autonome dans ce domaine ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben ça, c’était la réponse pas mal sommaire. Depuis un an d’ailleurs, je n’en fais plus beaucoup étant donné ce qui m’arrive dans ma vie. Outre ça, je suis aussi écrivain, conférencier et blogueur.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Et pourriez-vous nous expliquer qui sont les Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C'est un regroupement d’hommes et de femmes qui s’est approché de moi, dû à l’attrait que mon discours avait. Et on est devenu un mouvement de protestation, un mouvement qui se lève pour la justice et qui prend soin des oubliés. NA
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Qui sont les oubliés?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Les gens qui ont été oubliés du système, surtout pendant cette crise-là. Des gens qui sont pas capables de manger. On a fait beaucoup d’épicerie, on a nourri des itinérants, on les a habillés. Depuis les deux dernières années, on a fait énormément pour les gens du peuple qui pouvaient pas subvenir à leurs besoins.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quand est-ce que ce mouvement-là a commencé?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… quelque part en 2020. Notre premier événement a été la Saint-Jean-Baptiste avant tout le monde, qui était le 19 juin, si je me rappelle bien. Le 19 ou 20 juin 2020. On a fait une Saint-Jean-Baptiste et puis au nombre de billets qu’on a vendus, tous les profits ont été versés à une maison qui vient en aide aux itinérants, pour les jeunes de 18 à 30 ans, pour les mettre dans rue… pour les remettre sur la… sur le marché du travail. Pis par la suite, ben on a milité, pis on a continué à faire des campagnes de financement. On a vendu des items à notre effigie, et on fait des campagnes de financement pour continuer de prendre soin de ceux qui en avaient besoin.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Combien de gens font partie des Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
À une certaine époque, on est monté jusqu’à 400 sur une page Facebook, mais c'est dur à dire, puisqu’on parle plus d’un mouvement que d’un groupe. À Gatineau, on s’est rendu compte que le mouvement était beaucoup plus grand qu’on pensait, parce qu’on a eu l’appui de millier de… de… de Canadiens. Qui nous aidaient indirectement, sans être directement proche de l’action avec nous autres. Fait qu’on parle de 400 membres sur une page Facebook, mais des milliers de supporteurs.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors c'est un mouvement pancanadien, pas juste un mouvement québécois?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On a même eu, à une certaine époque, des membres jusqu’en Floride et au Texas.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Mais la plupart des membres viennent du Québec.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
La majorité.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Pis je comprends que les Farfadaas font du militantisme social et politique? Sh : Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pourriez-vous nous expliquer ce que ça veut dire le militantisme pour vous. Et quelles causes de nature sociale et politique vous préoccupent? Vous et les Farfadaas.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, je vais, je vas parler pour moi, puisque tout ce qui s’est rapproché de moi depuis ce temps-là, c’était pour mon discours sociopolitique, justement. Donc, je vais prendre pour acquis que, y ont fait de moi leur porte-parole. Donc, ils étaient d’accord avec ce que je pensais. C'est pas ma première participation du côté militant, là, même dans la preuve qu’on a rempli ensemble, vous pouvez voir que j’ai été membre du conseil de la Meute, et avant, j’ai été membre de... d’autres groupes. Et avant, en solo, j’ai participé souvent à des conférences, euh… La sociopolitique m’a toujours intéressée, dans le sens où j’ai toujours trouvé que le peuple n’était pas assez entendu par nos élus. Ce qui fait en sorte que nos élus ont la possibilité de faire un peu ce qu’ils veulent, outre la campagne électorale. On a des campagnes électorales qui durent à peu près un mois, pis pendant ce temps-là, nos élus nous disent ce qu’on veut entendre pour être élus et les quatre années qui suivent, ils ne remplissent pas leurs mandats. Et les gens du peuple ne sont pas entendus. On n’est tellement pas entendu qu’on est obligés d’aller manifester pour se faire entendre. Et encore, on n'est pas encore entendus. Ce qui prouve que la politique est très détachée de… de… du peuple. On fait partie un peu de deux classes de sociétés distinctes, pis c'est pas normal. Je veux dire, c'est nous tous qui avons bâti ce pays, pis on aimerait beaucoup participer aux décisions. On aimerait beaucoup plus de démocratie. Mon combat à moi, ça toujours été d’unir le peuple. Afin qu’on cesse de se laisser diviser par les races, par les religions, par les croyances, quelles qu’elles soient, par les orientations sexuelles, on s’en fout! Par les langues. C'est vraiment une question du peuple qui n’est pas entendu par les élus, et du peuple qui est de plus en plus dans la pauvreté et dans l’indigence. Moi, personnellement, j’ai toujours prôné pour un mandat plus impératif que représentatif, qui ferait en sorte que les élus devraient remplir leurs promesses électorales. Sans quoi on aurait des moyens légaux de tenir recours contre ces édiles. Alors qu’on est aux prises avec des mandats représentatifs, ce qui fait en sorte qu’ils ont le droit de nous dire en toute légalité ce qu’on veut entendre pour être élus, et de prendre pour acquis qu’ils s’en vont nous représenter à l’Assemblée nationale ou dans les Parlements provinciaux. Pis à ce moment-là, ils votent toutes les lois qu’ils veulent sans notre consentement. Pis dans les dernières années, on a vu passer beaucoup de lois où on n’était pas d’accord. Mais y a personne qui vient nous demander notre avis. Un moment donné, faut crier plus fort pour être entendu.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit que vous faisiez partie du groupe la Meute, pourquoi êtes-vous parti de ce groupe-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pour des divergences d’opinions, avec d’autres membres du groupe la Meute, on avait beaucoup travaillé afin que ça devienne un organisme à but not lucratif, démocratique. Mais y avait une espèce de regroupement de personnes qui a continué de travailler pour la Meute inc. Qui est au registre des entreprises, donc les profits ne sont pas versés dans le peuple. C'est la chose qu’on était le plus pas d’accord. Et la démocratie au sein du groupe, on n’était pas d’accord parce qu’il manquait de démocratie, les membres n’étaient pas plus écoutés que les citoyens aujourd'hui dans le peuple. Alors on a décidé de quitter le groupe.