Christine Johnson
Christine Johnson spoke 142 times across 9 days of testimony.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Inspector.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My name is Christine Johnson. I’m one of the counsel representing the Ottawa Coalition of Businesses and Residents. I have a short time with you today, so just a few questions. So just a couple of questions about the early planning that you told us a little bit about this morning, Inspector. You mentioned that it was your view and your knowledge that the OPS had dealt with two previous trucker protests involving the same sort of mandate or issue. And you mentioned that they were gone fairly quickly. I believe you said that one protest group was gone over night, one was gone the next day. Is that correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You did acknowledge, however, that these previous protests involved local groups, and I think I heard in your testimony this morning, there was an acknowledgement these weren’t groups coming from far away out west; correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you would agree that this time around, given that you knew the convoys were travelling quite a great distance across the country, it could have been anticipated that they were perhaps planning to stay a while?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we heard earlier in this process from a layperson, the Executive Director of the Vanier Business Improvement Area, Nathalie Carrier, that to her, as a layperson, it was quite obvious that these trucks weren’t, you know, travelling, packing up their kids, packing up their supplies, driving all the way across the country just for a weekend. Is that fair to say that was the police’s understanding as well?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you said that around January 25th and 26th, you developed heightened concerns about the convoy. And you told us this morning that those heightened concerns were pertaining to the online rhetoric that you were seeing, concerns about who was attaching themselves to the convoy, and concerns that this could lead to a potential for violence. Is that correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So would it be fair to say that, and you noted, that even though the convoy may have demonstrated peaceful behaviour while moving across Canada, OPS was concerned that this might not be the case, this peaceful behaviour might not continue as they reach Ottawa, given the rhetoric that you were seeing online?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. I will. And sorry, sir, your answer to that question?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. So you had mentioned that it was your understanding that the convoy, as they made their way across Canada, had been cooperative, had been peaceful, however, in light of these heightened concerns that you had from what you were seeing online, did OPS have a concern that that peaceful behaviour might not continue as they entered Ottawa?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Great. And that leads into my next question, Inspector. How does the community impact fit into the planning that you were undertaking in light of these heightened concerns? When you talk about the Public Order Unit, is that where community impact would have been assessed in planning?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it’s fair to say even in light of these heightened concerns, the possibility of blocking access to Wellington was not revisited?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In light of the heightened concerns that you had January 25th and 26th.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Moving on to contingency planning for a moment, you told us this morning that there were contingency plans being developed, although they were not reflected in the pre-arrival operational plan that we looked at.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the pre-arrival operational plan, and we don’t need to pull it up, but there is a threat assessment section that noted that the convoy trucks could pose safety and logistical hazards because of their size and weight and the convoy could shut down movement if it wanted to. So I’m curious to know, sir, what were the contingency plans for the possibility of the convoy shutting down movement?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Those are all my questions, sir.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sorry to interrupt, Commissioner. It's Christine Johnson for the Ottawa Residents and Businesses. I'm just not sure if we were perhaps missed there in the lineup? I believe we have 15 minutes with Mr. Dichter, and I know it goes from most time to least time.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so with the Ottawa Residents and Businesses.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just checking. I'm not sure if we were perhaps missed in the lineup. I believe we have 15 minutes with Mr. Dichter, and I know that it normally goes from most time to least time.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. And I'm in your hands, of course, knowing that we normally take the lunch break at one o'clock, if you would prefer to have a start, or perhaps to carry with less time to get the lunch break. I'm in your hands.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right. Good afternoon, Mr. Dichter.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
As you would have just heard, my name is Christine Johnson.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm one of the co-counsel representing the Ottawa Residents and Businesses Coalition. I just have a couple of areas of questioning for you today.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It might come as no surprise that my first area of questioning for you, sir, is going to be about the honking that residents and businesses observed during the convoy protest.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you told us this morning, Mr. Dichter, that on the evening that you fell and slipped on the ice and broke your leg that you didn't hear any honking at all. It was silent; is that ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you would agree that there was loud, prolonged, frequent honking day and night throughout much of the convoy protest in Ottawa?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You witnessed no loud, prolonged honking?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So there was honking throughout the day continuing beyond the first few days?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard that after your fall on the ice and break of your leg ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- you were confined to the hotel most of the time; is that right?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you wouldn't have heard the honking directly on the street because you weren't on the street for a good period of time.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you're aware that many residents were expressing concern that they were hearing frequent, loud honking and they were disturbed by that honking?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you are aware that Ottawa residents ultimately brought an application for an injunction against the honking and the court in fact granted that motion?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I may have caught you wrong, but I believe that you just told one of my friends that you weren't a participant in that proceeding at all, in that motion to obtain an injunction proceeding?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so you don't recall the fact that you swore an affidavit that was submitted into evidence on use -- for use on that motion on February 7th?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It -- I believe it attested to the fact that you were in Ottawa as part of the protest, and you do not own a truck.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were aware ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you affirmed that affidavit for use in the motion injunction?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir, you told us earlier that you were not involved whatsoever ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- in the motion for an injunction on February 7th against the horn honking when ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You didn't attend the proceeding, but you did ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- in fact supply an affidavit for use in that proceeding?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. And again, you're aware that that motion was successful and that the court was convinced on the evidence that there was honking, and it would cause irreparable harm if the honking were to continue?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were you ever provided a copy of the court's decision?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the lawyers for the JCCF never provided you with a copy of that court order at the time it was obtained?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you aware that pursuant to that court order you were required to communicate the terms of the order on your personal social media?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And in fact, you never did communicate the terms of the order on your social media?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So you've told us that you didn't hear a lot of honking, you didn't think it was a key feature of this protest at all; is that fair?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I want to ask you about your personality on social media. You have a Twitter account, Mr. Dichter, that has honk in your name on Twitter; correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what is the significance of that? Why did you include honk in your Twitter name?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So some drivers, some truckers did communicate to you that they felt as though the honking was a way to get their message across, get their voices heard?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So that was going to be my next question was when did you insert honk into your name?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And one of my friends has already asked you about a forthcoming book that you'll be publishing ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- about your experience in the convoy, and I understand that the title of that book is "Honking for Freedom".
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And again, if honking was not essential feature of this protest, why would your book be named Honking for Freedom?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mr. Clerk, I'm going to just have this witness look at a couple of documents. The first is HRF00000042. And while this is coming up on the screen, Mr. Dichter, you've already been asked about those daily event and safety reports that were put out for convoy participants?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I believe you told us that you didn't have direct involvement in these. They were put out by Tom Quiggin?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Tom Quiggin was the host of the Quiggin Report hosted on your podcast; correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Do you recall seeing some of these daily event bulletins?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So this looks to be the report from February 12th. We'll see that at the top of the report.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. Clerk, I'll just have you scroll down to the very bottom. So we have Daily Humour and Meme Warfare section. From looking through a few of these reports, it seems like it was common to have a daily humour or a joke section at the bottom of them.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so this meme or humour section has a caricature of someone labelled "The Hoonker", and it has a variety of descriptors around this caricature. It says: "Doesn't vandalize, just hoonks; uses meme warfare in real life; creates a schedule of the hoonk for maximum freedom enhancing effects; disrupts the status quo by not letting people sleep in tyranny; withholds the soy [from reaching] the soy jack until freedom improves; uses the power of vibrating air to chase the Prime Minister out of the country; just straight says to the crying soy jack 'The hoonking will continue until freedom improves'; train horn not enough, we need a ship horn." And there are a variety of caricatures at the bottom, looking to have tears pouring out of their eyes, their hands on their face.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And can you explain to that, sir?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we see the reference to the term "soy jack". Do you -- can you illuminate us on what ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- soy jack refers to?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you would agree with me that this type of humour, whether it's in jest or not, is perhaps not getting the message across to convoy participants to lay off the horns in light of the injunction?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in the interest of time, I won't take you to the second daily report of this nature, but ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- for the record, HRF00000043 is a February 13th daily report ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- that has a humour section along these lines as well. And I don't know if you recall it off the top of your head, but there was a daily humour section at the bottom that said, "The supreme art of war is to tire the enemy with honking." So that's something that you find equally funny along these lines, I take it?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And lastly, sir, I'll just ask you a couple of other questions of impact ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- just very briefly on Ottawa residents and businesses. We heard you say this morning that you -- it was your understanding the Rideau Centre was open initially?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- but you were aware it was only that first weekend that it was opened. It closed very soon on that first weekend of protests, and actually remained closed for the duration?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So sir, I'll would tell you that your information on that sounds to be inaccurate from our discussions with our BIA clients.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So who was it who told you that businesses were forced to close because of the City?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, are you aware, sir, that businesses, many businesses were forced to close because of maskless protesters and their concern about the fines that they as businesses might face if they were to stay open and have maskless patrons ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- in their stores?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Notwithstanding any concerns that, you know, young employees might face harassment or anything like that. You wouldn't have had concerns when you were running your business of those sorts of things?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. Christine Johnson for the Ottawa Residents and Businesses Coalition. We also have no questions for this witness.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Hi there. Christine Johnson for the Ottawa Residents and Businesses. We have no questions for this witness. Thank you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Commissioner. Can you see and hear me?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I am happy to report -- Christine Johnson for the Ottawa Coalition. I'm happy to report that all of our questions have also been answered and we have no further questions. Thank you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Good afternoon, Panel. My name is Christine Johnson. I'm counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I just have a few hopefully short questions for you today. To begin, I would ask the clerk to please pull up a document. It's Document SSM.CAN.00001319_REL.0001. And while we're waiting for that to be pulled up -- oh, here it comes -- so I was hoping that -- and this is a question for anyone on the Panel who might be able to give assistance -- I'm wondering if any of you might be able to assist me understanding this document? So this would be at the top. It's an email sent February 14th. We see the from and to information's redacted as personal information at the top, but if you scroll to the bottom of page 2, we see that this email originated from someone in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. And we can go back up to the top, please, Clerk. So my understanding that this email is that it is an email communicating information about the names of 201 trucking companies whose trucks were identified as participating in the convoy demonstration within Ottawa. The email then shares which of these 201 companies accessed the CEWS, which I understand refers to the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy. So -- and the email goes on to note that 45 of these 201 trucking companies were identified as active in that subsidy. So my question for the Panel is just whether any of you were aware that this information was being compiled within the department and then for what use, is my question?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. That’s fair. And for the record, I'll just note that the document attached to this document is SSM.CAN.00001320, but of course, we don’t need to pull it up in light of the Panel's answer. So I'll just move to another brief area which I'm sure you can provide me some assistance. This is with regards to clarifying some of the evidence that you provided regarding the aggregate data that the department received about the frozen accounts pursuant to the order. Mr. Sabia, you told us that approximately 280 accounts were ultimately frozen, and for your assistance, I I believe that that’s the number that’s also contained within your institutional report. Is that -- that’s correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that was -- those were accounts frozen between February 15th and February 24th, correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Fair. And we heard you also give evidence that to the Department's knowledge no donors had their account frozen. So those 280 accounts were not donor accounts but they were more people who were leaders of or instrumental in some way in the protests?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And financial service providers told the Department that those accounts, again those 280 accounts, represented different financial products. For example, savings accounts, chequing accounts, credit cards or lines of credit; correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So to be clear, the total number of individuals or entities who had accounts frozen under the Order was in all likelihood far less then 280 because those 280 accounts may have been multiple accounts held by individuals or entities; correct?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. And to process this with that, Clerk, I would ask you to pull up document SSM.CAN.00000209_REL.0001. And I believe my friend from the CCLA already took you to this document today. And Ms. Jacques, I'll point out that at the -- if you scroll to the bottom of page 1, we see an email from you, Ms. Jacques, to Alex, and again, I believe this is Alex Lawrence, and you say on February 22nd: "...the RCMP has confirmed that they provided the banks with a list of 57 individuals/entities representing a total of 240 financial accounts that are no longer involved in the blockades." And you go on to note that the banks have confirmed that there will be an unfreezing of these accounts. So is this -- these numbers, so we see 57 individuals or entities corresponding to 240 financial accounts. So is this the type of ratio that we're looking at when we're looking at the overall 280 accounts that were frozen, it was likely of this nature, this kind of ratio?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Those are all my questions.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening. My name is Christine Johnson and I’m one of the counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I have some questions for you both, and you can answer whoever feels able to answer, with regards specifically to your assessment of the threat posed by the situation in Ottawa. So I’d like to start off by noting that yesterday we heard Jody Thomas discuss the process of determining the distinction between lawful and unlawful protests and the difficulty, sometimes, in determining when peaceful protests become violent protests. And with regards to determining whether the protest activity involves the threat or use of serious violence, Ms. Thomas stated that: “The only measure can’t be violent of a nature of January 6th.” (As read) And I understood her statement to mean that it’s not only violence that rises to the level of an insurrection. And I would take it from your testimony today that you would agree with that statement?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm, yes.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm. Thank you for that answer. And it feeds into my next question which was, is it correct that, to your knowledge, neither the Emergencies Act nor the CSIS Act defines the term “serious violence” ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- and in fact -- sorry, I was just continue to say it’s in fact open to interpretation, as you suggest?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you’ve testified today that you believed that the definition of “a threat of serious of violence” or “act of serious violence” under Section 2(c) of the CSIS Act, that definition was met and justified in invocation of the Emergencies Act; is that fair?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. And you gave some examples to my friend, Mr. Miller -- and this is for Ms. Drouin. You gave some examples to my friend, Mr. Miller, of the types of things that you consider in looking at -- you know, from all of the inputs you were receiving of what was going on at the ground, the types of serious violence that occurred, and you gave examples of threat to the economy, impact on trade, impacts on workers, disruption at ports of entry, as well as, you know, the on-the-ground harassment, intimidation, these sorts of things, assaultive behaviour. So is it fair to say that your understanding and interpretation of “serious violence” included more that just physical violence but also economic and psychological violence?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And just -- if I may have just a couple of minutes, Commissioner, just to ask specifically about the situation in Ottawa and how certain things factored into your decision making. We’ve heard testimony from both residents and law enforcement about people in Ottawa who experienced harassing and assaultive behaviour. We’ve heard that not all of this was reported to police and, in some circumstances when it was reported to police, it wasn’t always followed up on, in part because sometimes the nature of these circumstances were difficult to pinpoint perpetrators and follow-up investigate. Was this something that factored into your consideration of the serious violence that was occurring?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And would you consider the fact that residents of Ottawa were subjected to the display of hateful symbols and messages -- we’ve seen flags -- would you accept that people experiencing that kind of conduct, especially and in particular minority communities, would consider that sort of conduct a form of violence towards them?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And would you consider that a form of violence?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And with ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was there consideration, again, in your understanding, of whether there was serious violence involved in these protests -- what about the situation of swarms of maskless protesters entering into stores and restaurant, you know, posing serious risk, potentially, of illness to employees, business owners, other patrons, would that be a form of violence that you consider?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’ll leave it there. That’s fine, Commissioner. Thank you very much, Panel, for answering my questions.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Minister Lametti.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My name’s Christine Johnson. I’m counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I only have a few moments with you here today -- or a few minutes, I should say, and I’m going to use it to just ask some questions about your own experience of the situation in Ottawa. You’ve testified today that you were personally impacted by these events and -- as a part-time resident of Ottawa and, in fact, you felt forced to leave Ottawa to go spend time in Montreal; that’s fair to say?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And can you tell us what it was specifically that made you feel like you both needed to change where you were living in Ottawa and then go to spend time in Montreal?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you mentioned about concerns for your staff, and I think earlier you told us about concerns specifically for female staff, that they were concerns for their safety to you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up, please, document SSM.CAN.000007840. And while this is coming up, Minister Lametti, I can tell you that this document is a series of text messages between yourself and Minister Anand, where it looks to be that you're discussing the situation of threats to your staff. Unfortunately, we don’t see a date on these texts, but if you take a moment to review it, I'm going to ask you whether you can confirm for me that you are the blue bubbles?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you say: "Had a tough week in Ottawa. Team members harassed. Back in Montreal and will do virtual to spare my team." And further down, you tell Minister Anand: "Even worse, it is the women who feel unsafe. Got my driver to drive them when I could."
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just to be clear, you were hearing firsthand stories or concerns reported by your staff?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. And you know, we've heard that you were able to residences in Ottawa and then go to Montreal, but you would obviously be aware that there were many residents of downtown Ottawa who unfortunately didn’t have that luxury or the means to move elsewhere and were stuck in the midst of this convoy?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it fair to say then that you didn’t need government intelligence to tell you whether the convoy was causing harm to people and businesses in downtown Ottawa, that you saw this in fact for yourself with your own eyes?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Those are my questions. And Commissioner, I think I have one minute left and I would cede that to the CTLA.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening. My name's Christine Johnson. I'm counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I want to ask you a few questions this evening about your experiences in Ottawa and also some of the experiences you were hearing of staff members that you work with in Ottawa. And I understand, Mr. Brodhead, that you live in Toronto and were not here for the Ottawa protests, so I will direct my questions ---
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So I will direct these questions to Ms. Telford and to Mr. Clow. So you were both here living in Ottawa during the demonstration?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in the witness statement -- and to save time, I don't think we need to pull it up unless I hear otherwise from you -- but your colleague, Mr. Broadhurst, noted that at least some protesters engaged immediately in illegal activity by blocking and occupying city streets, defacing public property, harassing residents. Was this also your observation that this kind of illegal activity was occurring as early as the first weekend in Ottawa?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. Clerk, I will ask for you to pull up a document, SSM.CAN.00007737. And as this is coming up, I can advise that this is a set of text messages that we see at the top it says "Katie and JT." I presume this is texts between you, Ms. Telford, and our prime minister. And I believe -- it doesn’t show at the top of this document, but the way this document's labelled in our disclosure, our discovery database, it also says it involved Phil Proulx, who I believe is the executive assistant or was the executive assistant to the prime minister.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've testified here tonight that Mr. Proulx lives in Centretown?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. And we see here -- you can see faintly at the top these are texts shared on February 2nd. And it looks like, Ms. Telford, you share a Tweet from City Councillor Catherine McKenney describing the situation in Centretown. And then we see this blue box below, and I'm not sure, do you recall if this was from Mr. Proulx or was this from our prime minister?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And he says: "Yep. The honking, wheels spinning went on late again last night. It was all day yesterday again. I put earplugs in at times during the day yesterday to make it less aggressive. It has already started again this morning. They have some periods of calm now, but then start nonstop for a period of time. It is enough to absolutely drive you absolutely nuts. The truck horns especially; they sound like they are right in the middle of your home." So would you agree that this statement seems to convey that for residents living in the heart of Centretown, the honking could be heard very loudly inside homes and not just on the street?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you hear about this experience from other residents as well through your conversations with city councillors, citizens groups?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And on that point, I think I saw in the witness statement that there was actually a direction at some point that staff should work from home for their safety, and it was mentioned that this was never done before, it was never communicated that staff should work from home for their safety before. That was unusual and significant.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in terms of safety concerns regarding staff, we saw in your witness statement there was mention of a particular incident where a convoy participant threw coffee at a pregnant staff member. Do you recall that incident?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And do you know if this incident was reported to police at all?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Are you aware that there were incidents of threatening and assaulting -- assaultive nature going on that were not, in fact, always reported to police at this time in where they were? Residents were not always receiving feedback that these complaints are being followed up on?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Those are all my questions for you this evening. Thank you very much.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Mr. Prime Minister. My name’s Christine Johnson. I’m counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I want to use my time with you today, Prime Minister, to unpack the evidence that you’ve provided that, in your mind, this demonstration in Ottawa was not a peaceful protest. So you’ve already told us, I believe in response to some questions from my friend with the Commission and my friend with the CTLA, that you obviously believe that protest is a very important part of a functioning democracy. You also acknowledged, and I think most people in Ottawa would agree, that peaceful protests may sometimes cause inconvenience for people and may also sometimes cause temporary interference with critical infrastructure, even. But during the convoy demonstrations in Ottawa, you’d agree that we weren’t seeing mere acts of civil disobedience or temporary interference with critical infrastructure. We were seeing unlawful conduct that significantly interfered with the community’s ability to live and exist.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. And it’s your view that as early as the first weekend of the demonstration in Ottawa some convoy participants were engaged in serious illegal activity by blocking and occupying city streets, defacing public property and harassing residents.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And from that first weekend onwards, this became even worse and more concerning to you.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you mentioned to us this morning that you grew concerned in particular over counter- protests rising up. Were you aware in particular of the counter- protest that has now been coined as the battle of Billings Bridge on February 13th?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s correct. And is it fair to say that this counter-protest was actually quite successful in getting some trucks to leave very peacefully?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so was the government worried that, given the success, even, of this counter-protest they might become more frequent if there was no government action and you were worried that that was what might ultimately lead to a violent conflict?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And we’ve seen one document that I want to ask you about. I won’t pull it up. But a CSIS report that we’ve been taken to a number of times in this inquiry that described the situation in downtown Ottawa. And CSIS communicated downtown Ottawa, “Mood was actually quite festive, not threatening to passers-by”. I take it this was not your assessment based on what you were seeing and hearing for yourself.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in addition to that, you were hearing, in fact, that many Ottawa residents, business owners and workers didn’t find -- did, in fact, find the convoy quite threatening. So to those passers-by, at least, there was threatening behaviour.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you -- in your witness statement, you also suggest that, in your mind, this is not a peaceful protest because of the threat of violence that existed towards law enforcement when they were trying to manage the demonstration.
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And my last question for you following from that, is that when the government was ultimately considering the evocation of the Emergencies Act, CSIS advised Cabinet that invoking the Act could further inflame extreme anti-government rhetoric and even incite violence. To your mind, hearing that assessment, does that not, in and of itself, confirm to you the threat of serious violence that was ever-present amongst these demonstrations?
-
Christine Johnson, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Prime Minister. Those are all my questions for you.