Donnaree Nygard
Donnaree Nygard spoke 419 times across 8 days of testimony.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good evening, Superintendent.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
My name's Donnaree Nygard. I'm Counsel for the Government of Canada. I just have a couple of brief questions for you. When my friend from the Commission was discussing with you your January 29th Hendon report, you talked about -- and this is right at the beginning, obviously, of the protest, and you talked about the fact that there had been no criminal activity as the convoy moved across the country, but -- and I'm not going to quote you directly because I'm not that good a note taker, but something to the effect of but when a plan meets a counterplan, you don't know what to expect, and that these kinds of events attract others with other agendas, including lone wolves. Does that roughly accord with your recollection ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- of what you said?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Absolutely.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And what I wanted to ask you about that, because one of my other friends said that -- asked you the question that a protest is not necessary for a lone wolf attack. But I take it from those comments you made about what can happen when these groups come together that an event such as this that brings all these groups together can increase the likelihood or provide more opportunity for a lone wolf attack. Would that be ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- a reasonable ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Can we have document OPP00001837, please? Now one of my friends took you to this document earlier. It was -- you said you hadn't seen it before. It was the notes from the Integrated Planning Cell on February 11th that you attended. And just so I'm understanding correctly, this was a briefing that you were giving on the intelligence that you had collected in relation to these events?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So if we scroll down just a little bit so you can see where it says minutes and then it says that you're speaking; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll onto the next page, just a few lines up from that redaction, it says, "In terms of Ottawa convoy, since they started on 24[th of] Jan, there have been very few criminal acts. Yesterday, there was an increase in hostility, antagonism, anti- police/anti-establishment sentiment." And then if we go down to the next two bullet points, "This situation is incredibly volatile which may have national security implication[s]." And then the next bullet point there ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Oh, you're not following?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So this situation ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- is incredibly volatile.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then two lines down, "There are extremist groups - DIAGALON involved. [And] FAARFADA is a QC based group." So just a couple of questions for you on this. I assume that you were telling this group all of this information because this was based on the intelligence you had gathered?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So maybe I'll just back up for a moment. Is -- from your recollection, is what's here, or at least the parts that I took you to, is that, from your recollection, an accurate recording of what you would have told this group ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- amongst other things?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I don’t think -- well, this February 11th so you would not have been aware of it yet, but in addition there was at one point some arrests made in Coutts, Alberta which you asked about.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that was also informing what was going on in Ottawa?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then lastly I want to take you to OPP00001783. And this is the timeline document that you referred to in your statement.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I understand from your statement that although this was mostly written by an analyst, it was something that you approved, the entire document?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I just wanted to take you to page three.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I wasn’t going to go to that part.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But just -- so I take it, given the fact that you reviewed and approved it, that the information in this document you considered to be accurate?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So just before the title towards the bottom of page three that says “With respect to intelligence failure”, you’re discussing in the paragraph above that, the Freedom Movement or this document is discussing the Freedom Movement and the Freedom Convoy. And that paragraph concludes saying: “These potentially unintended consequences that stretched into national security realm could not be left unaddressed and the political climate along with the growing civil unrest of the movement as a whole where threats of violence were omnipresent and particular to the Ottawa occupation appeared to necessitate enhanced policing powers to resolve the conflict.” So the reference to the threats of violence or omnipresent, is that in particular -- in relation to the Ottawa occupation or was that the movement as a whole?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
When you say you found no credible intelligence of threats, were you involved in the investigations into particular threats that were made to various politicians and other public figures in Ottawa, or is that something that the OPS dealt with?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Of those kinds of threats. So you’re not talking about a threat that may be made against a particular individual, for example?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But where threats were made against individuals, precautions were taken to protect those individuals?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Those threats didn’t actually materialize, but that doesn’t mean that the threats weren’t originally credible?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Potentially?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you weren’t involved in any of those?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
If the person who uttered the threat could be identified?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
It’s hard to lay a charge if you can’t identify an anonymous threat?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No, but when security is provided ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- then presumably the threat is credible?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon. I’ll check my time. You indicated in your ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Oh, introduce myself, I’m sorry. My name is Donnaree Nygard. I’m counsel for Canada. You indicated in your evidence-in-chief that police services, including the OPP, tow vehicles all the time. You have the authority to do that. And I just want to make sure that I’m understanding what you’re saying. You’re talking about the authority to tow vehicles, that’s something you have, and you didn’t need the EA for that, but you don’t -- or you didn’t, absent the EA, have the ability to compel tow truck drivers to assist with that; is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that the use of two trucks, in particular heavy tow trucks, was instrumental to the plan to clear out the protest in Ottawa, correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And the integrated operation was not actually able to obtain the services of such tow trucks without the use of the EA, the Emergencies Act, in this situation, correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Could I have Document ONT00000179, please? Now, you mentioned Kirk Richardson, that he’s ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- who was doing this, and he was doing the organization with the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
All right. If we can just scroll down to the first email in the chain, just so we can see the beginning? So this is an email on February 16th from the MTO, and there’s a number of recipients, including Mr. Richardson you can see there.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if you can see in the first bullet point there, it says there were 13 heavy tow trucks requested and support equipment, 11 tow trucks confirmed so far from three towing companies, and they were working on securing more. So that was the situation which -- I think if we scroll back up at 1:19 on February 16th, and then if we continue to scroll up to the next email in the chain, at the bottom of the first page we’ll see the time. Now we’re at 5:00 in the evening that same day, and there’s a follow-up email. And if we can just see there that it says in that first line: “Good afternoon: Estimate below (per day) based on discussion with two towing companies. The third towing company has dropped out. We have total 10 trucks at this time.” And then you’ll see that he says: “Need a letter from the OPP requesting these companies to provide services and stating that the Federal Act cover any damage to their equipment and indemnify them from damage or other claims resulting from vehicles towed upon police direction.” And then if we go up to the final email in the chain, you’ll see that it says: “Hi, Veronica. I’ve told them that the letter will come tomorrow. They will be moving tonight based on my and Steve’s commitment, credibility.” So would you agree with me that at the end of the day, MOT was actually only able to obtain two towing companies and that those were only obtained if they were compelled under the Federal Emergencies Act?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you’ll agree with me that as far as heavy tows are concerned, this email chain makes pretty clear that they were only able to obtain these two.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And that the solution to that issue when it came to the heavy tow trucks was using the Emergencies Act regulation.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. You’ve talked in a fair amount of detail this afternoon about the importance and the role of the PLTs in ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- in the work they do, particularly to shrink the footprint of a protest before enforcement action is taken. And I take it, based on what you’ve said, you’ll agree with me that that was a very important part of your plan here.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, I think you said that if you had had to go in without shrinking the footprint, you would have needed 10,000 officers to deal with everyone who was there.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if you can’t shrink the footprint, not only do you need a lot more officers, but it takes more time to ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- control the situation.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And also that there’s more risk of violence or injuries when you’ve got a bigger crowd to control.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But the bigger -- the bigger the activity that you’re trying to deal with, the more possibility there is for volatility.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And therefore, the greater chance of violence and injuries.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, absolutely.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Absolutely. And you did succeed, and an important part of that was the ability of the ability of the PLTs to shrink the footprint significantly before you ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And the PLT’s ability to do that job is dependent on how persuasive they can be in convincing people to leave.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And one of the tools that the PLT has to convince protestors to leave is educating them on the consequences if they don’t leave.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And presumably the more significant those consequences, the more persuasive the PLT can be in convincing people to leave.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And in this case, when this plan was actioned and the PLTs went in to do their work to try and shrink the footprints, one of the tools that was used was a pamphlet that was handed out; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And perhaps I can just -- if I can pull up OPP00001852. This is the Integrated Phased Approach Plan from February -- this particular version is dated February 18th, but I understand this is just an update of the plan that was in place for at least the -- since the 13th ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- and it was going through various iterations. And if we can go to page 5, please. Probably, actually, page 6 of the document. It’s page 5 on the page numbers. Yes. Down towards the bottom of the page. Just under the bolding there, this talks about the pamphlet that was being -- or it was a media release provided, but as I understand it, there was also pamphlets handed out that stated the same thing. Is that your understanding as well?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so there’s various information that was being provided to the protestors to try and convince them to leave by the PLTs, and it’s listed here. First it mentions Criminal Code offences. And if we can go to the next page, it then names a couple of consequences that, as I understand it, come out of the Ontario emergency legislation. Is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And those consequences, in particular the driver’s licence suspension and the commercial vehicle operator’s registration suspension, those would only be applicable against people from Ontario; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So the Ontario legislation allowed you to cancel the -- suspend the driver’s licence of ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So your understanding is that the Ontario legislation allowed you to ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Just let me finish the question. Allowed you to suspend the driver’s licence of someone from British Columbia?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
If we go down, the following bullets are all, except for the last one, measures under the federal emergency legislation; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So the personal business accounts -- personal or business accounts, bringing the minor in -- the fines for bringing minors into the area and travelling to an unlawful protest site or delivering fuel and other supplies, those are all under the federal legislation ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- correct? And you’ll agree with me that the addition of those bullet points provided more persuasive fodder for the PLTs to convince individuals to leave.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And as a result of those additional tools, the PLT would have been able to convince more people to leave than they otherwise may have been able to do.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so that allowed you to have a smaller footprint that you were dealing with and perhaps allowed you to get to that smaller footprint faster.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Those are all my questions. Thank you.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Commissioner, can I just ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
My only comment would be if it’s in relation to the questions I was asking, and because I wasn’t given notice that it was going to be put to the witness, it may raise an additional question for me. I suspect I know what document it is, but I’m not entirely sure until I see it, obviously.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Supt. Bernier. My name is Donnaree Nygard, and I’m counsel for Canada. I just have a few questions that I would like to ask you. First, starting with the time period in which you were moving into the integrated command with the OPP and the OPS -- sorry; and the RCMP, and developing the plan that was eventually implemented. Can you tell us a little bit about what the situation on the ground was at that time? As I understand, from reading some of the Hendon reports, at that point in time, there was increased volatility in the protest zone; would you agree with that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that the protesters were becoming more adversarial and confrontational with police?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that there were violent elements within the crowd?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And there was, as a result of all of this, increasing concern for the possibility of violence within the protest the longer it continued on; is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And there was also some concern about firearms and other weapons within the crowd; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And, in fact -- if I can have OPP00003427, please? This is the February 14th Hendon report. Did you see that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can go to page 5, please? Scroll down just a little -- just right there’s good. Just beyond the bolded section there you can see there’s a reference to: “...represent potential volatile elements - they both espouse sovereign citizen ideals and, in the case of [redacted], early information suggest[s] he may have brought firearms. His interactions with police were notable when approached by [redaction] as to openly wearing a sheathed but sizeable knife on his person, he rejected the idea of [re]moving it.” Were you aware of situations -- of that situation in particular, and other situations like that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. So at the end of the day, the plan that the integrated team developed worked; correct?|
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
It was very successful in clearing what I believe you described as the largest and most complex police operation in Canada.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And the success of that operation depended on a lot of different moving parts, but I’m just going to focus on a couple of them for a moment. One of them was the ability to shrink a footprint down from where it started; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And, in fact, in his testimony Chief Supt. Pardy indicated that at the original size, it probably would have taken 10,000 officers to execute the same kind of plan. Would you agree with that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But it would have taken a lot more people if you hadn’t been able to shrink the footprint down; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And even within the footprint, if there had been more people and more vehicles still there, that would also have taken you longer; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And it would have been a more volatile situation.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that increases the risk of violence or riots or people getting hurt; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And the other thing that this plan was dependent on was the ability to move the large trucks which were parked all over the downtown core; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that required heavy tow capacity.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And going back to the shrinking footprint for a moment, you described the phases of your plan and the first one I think you described as stabilizing, and that included consistent messaging to the protesters that now was the time to leave; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And as part of that messaging, there were pamphlets that were being handed out to the protesters and news releases for printing in media so that everyone would be aware; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can have OPS000013798? This is the plan that has the February 15th date on the front cover. I know there’s a number of iterations of the plan. One of my friends took you to this earlier. And if we can go to page 5, please? And scroll down to the bottom of the page. Yeah, that’s good. You’ll agree with me that the plan, in fact, reproduced the content of the messaging that was being given out to the protesters; you can see it there, just after the start of it there. Just after the bolding.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that if we go on to the next page, there’s a number of these items, and I’m going to go through a few of them, but that were powers that were provided to the Police Services under the Federal Emergency Act and the Regulations associated with it; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And even the powers that were given to you under the provincial legislation, such as the ability to suspend certificates. That required of the towing of the vehicle first; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So you had to be able to tow before you could do that suspension?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Well perhaps we can refresh your memory. If we can bring up OPS000 -- oh, I guess it’s four zeros -- 1181?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, this is ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
This is a flow chart that - --
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Understandable. Oh, I’m sorry, I gave you the wrong number. It is three zeros 11801. And this is an OPP flowchart that was produced for the suspension. And you can see, if you go down to the third box, it’s “Remove Vehicle from [the] Highway” and then after that is the “Administrative Action”; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, absolutely.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
You were. And you’re just not sure?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Fair enough.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Fair enough. Well we won’t -- I could take you to one more place, but we’ll move on. The -- if we can go back to the previous document, OPS0000 -- 00013798? And back to page 6, please. So just going through some more of these bullet points, one of the things that was pointed out was the ability to have personal bank accounts subject to examination and restriction. That was a power that was provided under the federal EA; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then the next one about bringing minors to protests, that was also an EA power? And that was something that if children could be removed from the scene, would make enforcement safer; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And the other thing, just the second last bullet that I wanted to highlight there is persons traveling to the unlawful protest site could be charged? And that helps to shrink the footprint in that it stops more people from -- well, it -- I guess it helps to stop the footprint from increasing because people are not continuing to arrive; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you had some discussion with my friend earlier about -- and you confirmed that you had used the Federal Emergencies Act powers in order to put in place a secured area in the downtown core; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, that is reflected in your plan further on down that page, in the second paragraph, under “Situation”; correct? And that was already in place, I take it, from the use of the “has established”? As of February 15th, it was already in place?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Oh. When did it go -- when was it put in place?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So and I understand there was a news release that was put out announcing the secured area? I think that went out at 4:40 on the 17th? Is that ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that announced that a secured area was being put in place under the Federal Emergencies Act; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And prior to that time, you didn’t have an exclusion zone in that area; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So sorry, I just want to make sure I’m understanding your answer. You’re saying there wasn’t anything that would have allowed you to do that? Or you didn’t use anything?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And how long did you have that secure area in place?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you spoke about your -- the common-law ability to have an exclusion zone, and you also spoke earlier about how the Emergencies Act made it very clear what you were allowed to do; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that’s because the common-law authority for exclusion zones lacks a certain amount of clarity? Would you agree with that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So and I think I mentioned, sometimes it may be hard to understand, or to explain to the various groups that, whether it be our own officers, the community, or protestors.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Right. So and that’s what I meant by it lacks a certain amount of clarity.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you can never know for sure, in fact, whether your use of an exclusion zone will hold up in court until after the fact?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Under the common-law.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so you kept it in place until the 23rd when the Emergencies Act was revoked, but you weren’t conducting active police operations after, I think you said the 20th? Is that correct? Or ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And so I’d like to move to the issue of tow trucks for a moment. You said in your earlier testimony that the OPP arranged for the heavy tow trucks; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned that there were 34 tow trucks that were found and were available for your use; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you received that information from Mr. Richardson I assume?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that was around February 12th and 13th; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I assume from your testimony that you then weren't later informed that many of those fell through and that in fact Mr. Richardson was not able to obtain the services of any tow truck companies without the use of the Emergencies Act?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
If we can bring up, please, PB.NSC.CAN00007378. And if we could just start on page 4, please. So were you aware that the powers provided under the Emergencies Act regarding compelling tow trucks was delegated from the Commissioner of the RCMP to the Commissioner of the OPP?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then if we can go to page 5. So I'll just -- you've obviously not seen this before, so I'm going to give you a chance to have a look at it.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
You would agree with me, having seen this now, that in fact the Emergencies Act was used to compel tow trucks?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. But you weren't -- you -- is it fair to say that after the 12th, the 13th you left the tow truck details to other people?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you just weren't informed of any of this.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you don't ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- agree that it occurred?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. Fair enough. And just your comment on the OPS branding on the tow trucks, that was because of the drivers' concerns about anonymity; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that's because they were concerned both about threats that they had received and their business reputation as well if they were seen to be cooperating in these actions; is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Those are all my questions. Thank you very much.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good morning. My name is Donnaree Nygard, and I’m counsel for Canada.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I just want to start by going back to something my friend just asked you about, and that was in regards to your use of the word “assaultive” and what was occurring during the protest. And he put to you that there were a very limited number of charges for assaults following the protest. Would you agree with me that a lack of charges doesn’t necessarily mean that these activities weren’t occurring?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And there’s a variety of reasons why charges may not have been laid, for example, the perpetrator couldn’t be identified?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
There’s been earlier, in the hearing -- and I’m not sure if you watched all of this evidence -- a lot of discussion about the resources that were provided to OPS from the RCMP and when they were provided. And I just want to go over some of that with you to try and provide a little bit more clarity around that question. So starting at the beginning, on the first weekend of the protest there were -- and you were aware that there were two Public Order Units of the RCMP stationed in two different locations in Ottawa, one at Parliament Hill and one at Rideau Cottage. They were not under OPS control, but you were aware that they were there; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you were also aware that if something were to arise, those units were there and would come to the assistance of the OPS; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, after that weekend, you sent a note to Commissioner -- to Commissioner Lucki and also to Commissioner Carrique, and perhaps we can pull that up. It’s PB.NSC.CAN.00001396, with the underscore relativity, et cetera. And if we can just scroll down a little bit. That’s good. So this is an email that, as I said, you sent to Commissioner Lucki and to Commissioner Carrique, amongst others, after that first weekend. It was dated -- I don’t know if you got a chance to see it. It was dated January 30th. And in there, you’re expressing your appreciation for the Public Order Units that were on the ground during that weekend.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you didn’t make the first formal request for officers to assist the OPS under the OPS’ direction until February 2nd; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, sorry, in regards to the RCMP. And I can pull up the email, if you like, if it would be helpful.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So let’s help refresh your memory. It’s PB.NSC.CAN.00001743. And if we can scroll down to the first email in the chain, please. And just maybe up a little bit so we can see the date on it. So there. So this is on February 2nd. It’s an email from you to the Commissioner of the RCMP, and you’re requesting 50 uniformed members to be able to frontline traffic requirements and leadership to go along with those teams and three Public Order Units. That was your request at that time; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Right. And Ottawa’s a little bit unusual, isn’t it, in that in Ontario, normally, if a police service is in need of extra resources, it’s the OPP they would go to first, but in Ottawa you sometimes go directly to the RCMP?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But -- yes. And I should have been clearer. I apologize. In respect of going to the RCMP, the normal chain would be to go through the OPP to go to the RCMP.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. But in Ottawa, just because of your previous -- or the OPS’ previous relationship working with the RCMP on large events, you sometimes, as in this situation, went straight to the RCMP; correct? At the same time as going to the OPP.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. …
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And you'd agree with me that this email, if you're going to go directly to the RCMP, that an email from you to the Commissioner is the appropriate route to be making such requests; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And when you make such a request as you did in this email, you set out exactly what it is that you're requesting. That you need frontline traffic requirements, that you need leadership for those people, and that you need Public Order Units. That's important information to include in the request?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And after this request was made, the RCMP did, in fact, provide you with not -- in fact, perhaps I'll back up and scroll up a little bit to Commissioner Lucki's response. So, yeah, we could stop there. So in her response, Commissioner Lucki sets out in the second paragraph that all of her Public Order Units were actively deployed and she wasn't in a position to be able to redirect any to Ottawa at that time, and that in the next paragraph, she indicates that the RCMP's experiencing significant resource challenges, but she's asking her management team to explore the possibility of providing you with some or all of the other 50 resources you requested. And the RCMP did, in fact, over the following days, provide you with resources in that range; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Perhaps we can turn to another document that might assist you. It's OPB00001014. And maybe I'll start by asking, have you seen this chart before?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So this is an OPS produced document?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Right. And this document came to us through the OPB, so I assume at some point you provided it to them?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So if we can just have a look at this document, it's broken into two parts. And the top part of the chart is, as I understand it, the Public Order Units or Public Order members that are provided and the bottom part of the chart is regular members. Am I interpreting that correctly?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And there's a note down at the bottom that external Public Order deployments are incomplete between January 30th and February 9th. But if we just focus for a moment on the regular members that are provided, and the RCMP are listed at the top of that bottom part of the chart?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And we can see that on February 4th, which is 2 days after you made that request, there are 20 and then it increases up to 45 the following day and 52 and 49?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So you'd agree with me that the request for 50 members was, in fact, actioned within a couple of days by the RCMP?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And as was set out in Commissioner Lucki's response to you, you weren't provided with any Public Order Units directly under your control at that time?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that was because she said that they were deployed on other duties at that period of time?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you would agree with me that when a request is made to a partner policing agency, they have to make sure that they can fulfil their own mandate before they can give you additional people; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, but if those assets are actively operating somewhere else, then that has to be obviously taken into consideration?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And shortly after this on February 7th, I won't pull it up, but I assume you are familiar with the letter that was sent by the mayor both to the Prime Minister and an identical letter to the province as well requesting 1800 resources; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that's not the normal way for requesting resources from another policing agency; is it?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No. And that was an attempt by everyone involved just to do whatever they could to get the resources that you felt you required at the time?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I assume it was hoped that by having a piece of correspondence go from the mayor to the political level, that that would apply some political pressure to encourage movement on that front?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But at the end of the day, you also knew that you had to have that discussion directly with the RCMP? That letter in and of itself wasn't going to result in anything by itself?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And as I understand it, there was additional resources provided by the RCMP on February 8th to stand up the Integrated Planning Cell; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So senior members of the RCMP to assist with the planning. And I think you said, and I can turn you to it if you like, in your witness statement that they were provided, at least in part, to assist the Ottawa Police Service in securing the requested 1800 police resources; is that accurate?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then the following day on February 9th, there was a meeting with the RCMP and others in which the February 9th plan was explained, and you provided some more information about the nature of those resources; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Because the letter that went from the mayor to the Prime Minister didn't include any details about what those 1800 people were to be made up of; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you had prepared internally that chart that we've seen but that wasn't part of the letter that went ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- to the Prime Minister?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So that information was provided to the RCMP through this February 9th briefing; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I don't think I have the document number here, but I have seen the email you're referring to. I believe it occurred on the 10th. Would that fit with what ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- with your recollection?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so on February 9th, the resource ask was explained in a little bit more detail, because you would agree, just a number of 1800 isn't something that people could actually act on because they don't know what that is comprised of.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Right. And if we can go back to that chart that was OPB1014 -- 00001014? So if we look at this, very shortly after that meeting on the 9th, by the 11th the numbers of RCMP officers start to rise quite significantly on the 11th and the 12th; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And there is some delay in getting RCMP officers into a position where they can actually assist the Ottawa Police Services; correct? They have to be sworn in?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But you’ll agree with me that if the RCMP provide a certain number of officers, they cannot all work every day, so you need a pool, for example, larger than 50 in order to have 50 people working every day.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So if the RCMP are going to have -- supply to the OPS 50 boots on the ground on a given day every day, that’s not 50 individual officers; it has to be more than that in order to cover off 50 boots on the ground every day.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I’m not entirely sure we’re saying the same thing either. I guess my point is because RCMP officers have to come and be sworn in, and obviously have to have some time off; they can’t work 24 hours a day, that you would need a pool larger than the number of boots you want on the ground in order to have that many boots on the ground.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So you wanted to ensure you had 50 people on the ground every day, and that might require more than 50 people being here in order to accomplish it.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And I want to take you to one more document on this, which is PBS.NSC.CAN.00003118; this might help somewhat with this confusion. If we just scroll down to the bottom a little bit. A little further. So this -- oh, no, too far. This is an email on -- I believe it’s February 12, and it’s from Mike O’Beirne from the RCMP to a variety of people, including C/Supt. Pardy, about RCMP resources as of that day. So if we can just look -- scroll down to the numbers. So this is the resourcing that the RCMP are reporting as of February 12th, and they indicate there are, “Detachment to support the OPS Assist Operations/Deployments: 320”; “Deployed [as of] this date (24 hours): 225”; and “Operational Readiness: 159.” Can you help me and explain, if you know, what the difference between those three numbers is?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No, they don’t, I agree.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So you can’t help us with the difference between “Deployed” and “Operational Readiness”? No?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Well, they don’t match up with the numbers in the chart, but you just said yourself even your own numbers couldn’t be guaranteed to be accurate.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So I want to move on to another issue, and that’s the tow trucks. You would agree with me that obtaining heavy tow trucks in particular was a significant issue throughout these events; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And on Friday in your testimony you commented at one point that towing was happening throughout. I take it that you were referring to towing regular vehicles with regular tow trucks, not heavy tows; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And do you know where those tow trucks were obtained from?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But in any event, it very quickly became, particularly with the heavy tow trucks, a problem to get them to cooperate; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I think the first reference that I have seen in relation to this is on February 4th. And if we can pull up OPS00006270. And so this is the notes from a Command briefing that you appear to be -- have been at. Do you recognise the notes of this nature?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So -- and this -- the date on this is February 4th, and this is one of those ones where we have to subtract five from the time to get an accurate reading. So it would have been around four o'clock in the afternoon. Would that make sense for a Command briefing?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So if we can just scroll down to the bottom of the document. So -- oh, not quite that far. Yeah. You'll see there is an attribution to you in the last comment, and if we look at the very last couple of lines of that it says: "Chief concerned about lack of heavy tow truck availability - need to manage public expectations if this is the case, add to Operational Plan as a logistics need not being met; if tow truck drivers are being threatened or extorted, this needs to be investigated." So as early as February 4th, you were hearing about tow truck drivers being threatened I assume from this comment?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you were already having trouble getting tow trucks at that point?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then, if we can go to OPP00001521. So this is a couple of days later, on February 6th. And if we can go to the fifth... Oh, well, first, I'll situate you. This is a call, it appears to between various federal officials and provincial and City officials and yourself. Do you recall?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And if we can go to page 4 to start at the bottom -- towards the bottom of the page. And you can see there's these comments that are attributed to you. You're talking about the RCMP officers being sworn in. And then if we can scroll down a little bit, about three bullets down on the next page. You say: "Ottawa Police Service has two city tow trucks supporting and they are looking for other heavy tows." So at that point, it appears you had two tow trucks. Now, we've heard that OCC Transpo had two heavy tow trucks. Are those the tow trucks you're talking about?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But in any event, you were still looking for other heavy tows at that point, and I assume you were still having difficulty getting them to cooperate at that point.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, I won't -- well, I can take you there if you like, but in the February 9th Plan, there is specific reference to the fact that tow truck operators were receiving hundreds of threats are some of them were death threats. Is that your recollection?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And at one point there was an attempt to get the Ministry of Transport to assist with the tow truck issue. Do you recall that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No, provincial.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And even on -- as late as February 14th, you were still making comments that you needed heavy tow trucks; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And this document that we just looked at is one example, and you've referred to it as well. This was a consistent conversation you were having with both federal ministers and federal officials that there was no heavy tow trucks to be had, certainly not sufficient heavy tow trucks to be had to carry out the work that you needed to do to deal with this situation.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Because they were not cooperating they did not want to participate.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that was a consistent message you were giving to your federal partners?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And at no time did you tell them "Problem solved, we've got tow trucks"?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So I'll switch off of tow trucks now. We seem to spend an awful lot of time talking about them. Although, actually just before I do, I just wanted to confirm: In your witness statement, and I think you just said this now, you indicated that that was the second most pressing problem you had in order to be able to address this issue was the lack of heavy tow trucks; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So I want to turn to the issue of negotiations, sort of broadly-speaking, in dealing with the situation in Ottawa. And there's been quite a bit of discussion about the work of the PLTs, and they were involved in various negotiations throughout this piece. But these weren't negotiations to resolve the entire thing. They were -- I'm correct about that; right? They were negotiations to deal with particular issues within the protest.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, exactly.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. So they were working at smaller goals working towards the larger goal; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes. For example, one of the things we've heard about is the Confederation Park negotiations, which resulted in Confederation Park being cleared.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So that's an example of one of the smaller goals towards the larger objective. However, all of those smaller goals that they were working toward during this time, even the Confederation Park success, didn't result in a significant shrinking of the footprint or a reduction in the number of protesters. It dealt with some important issues, like getting people out of Confederation Park, but those people didn't leave; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And even in negotiations that the Mayor brokered was along that same line. It wasn't going to resolve the entire situation, it was an attempt to solve a particular problem, the awful circumstances that the residents in the downtown core were facing with the trucks in their neighbourhood; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And to your knowledge, there were no trucks that left as a result of that negotiation, although they were moved around?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And some of them refused to move at all during that attempt; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you were asking for these large numbers of resources, the 1,800 that you had requested, because although you thought and hoped that you would be able to shrink the footprint of this protest through some of these tools. There were significant elements within the protest that you knew weren’t going to voluntarily leave; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Absolutely. But my point was, at some point even using a measured approach and using the PLTs to their utmost ability at some point given the nature of this event, there was going to have to be some enforcement action; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Fair enough.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Right. And that’s why you needed the resources.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you were of the view that the situation in Ottawa, particularly taken in the context of everything that was going on around the country, created a threat to national security; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And why were you of that view?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And when you say the totality of events, what are you taking into consideration there?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And your view that this situation was of that nature, that it created a national security risk or threat, that was a view that you expressed quite consistently throughout these events; correct? And quite publicly.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And your view of -- even if you didn’t use those words, of the nature of the event at the time it was going on was something that you would have communicated to the various federal officials and federal ministers that you were dealing with.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And not only was it not just a local event, but that it was a very serious event.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that it was causing -- created significant risks.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Those are my questions.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me. You're not giving the witness a chance to read the notes. He said he's not sure what it says and he's trying to read it and you're moving onto something else.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
If you're going to ask the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- witness questions, then let him have a chance to read it ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- please.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
This is ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- this is one of those cases where you need to subtract five.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, it's only where it has the plus 0000 that you have to ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
It's usually just the top email you have to do it on.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me. Donnaree Nygard for the Government. If you're asking what the Ministers were discussing at Cabinet, that's obviously covered by Cabinet confidence and the witness couldn't speak to that.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
The discussions as between the Ministers are covered by Cabinet confidence.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
What -- sorry, once again, just the wording of the question is problematic, because you're asking if anyone at the Cabinet meeting said something. And if it was said in a discussion between Ministers, that would be covered by the Cabinet confidence. If it was said by someone providing inputs to Cabinet, then it's not.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me, but in addition, I think you’ve mischaracterized the evidence. She -- Ms. Polanzo (Phonetic) is with the RCMP.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Poloz.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good evening. For the record, I'm Donnaree Nygard. I'm one of the counsel for Canada. There's been a bunch of discussion today about the various meetings that occurred on the 13th, but I just want to take you back one day. And if we could have SSM.NSC.CAN.00000214. And just to situate you, Commissioner, this will be for you, this -- these are the IRG minutes --- Oh -- no, that's not it. These are the IRG minutes, or they should be, for the day before on February 12th. Do you see that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And this was a virtual meeting of the Incident Response Group on that day, and you attended that virtual meeting?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So if we can go to page 6, please, of the minutes. And if we can scroll down, just to where it says, "The Commissioner of the RCMP". And Commissioner, there's quite a long excerpt, and I'll let you have a quick read over it. It starts here and it goes down onto the next page. And I'm going to highlight just a few things, but I want to just let you situate yourself first. You can ask the clerk when you want to scroll down.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I think that's the end of the minutes that refer to your update. And -- so this was quite an extensive update of what was happening across the country, and you have -- I just want to draw your attention to a few things. If we can go back up to the beginning of where the Commissioner comments are started. Yeah, right there. So you started by talking about things that were happening at Thunder Bay and the GTA?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then you went on to discuss the situation in Windsor; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned the negotiations that were occurring in Windsor and the delivery of the letter from the Ontario Government that occurred there, but that the protesters did not accept that letter; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then you also describe the situation in Cornwall at the bridge there?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then you go on to describe the situation in Ottawa, including halfway down that paragraph that there were a number of additional convoys that were reportedly still travelling towards Ottawa on February 12th?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then you go on to describe the situation in Coutts on the next page?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you indicate there that the situation in Coutts is unique and there's a heightened risk to safety of persons including police, including indications of weapons on site. I just wanted to pause there for a minute. The arrests were made in Coutts the following day; is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
On February 14th. And so that was the information that you were giving to this committee as a whole at that point in time about what was going on in Coutts?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then finally, you talked about the situation in Emerson.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So would this kind of sort of cross country update on February 12th, is this what you were referring to in your speaking notes that you didn't actually get a chance to give on February 13th when you said there are some -- there's a number of ongoing incidents which we're all well aware of?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I think this is probably being cleared up by my friends, but just to make sure, you didn't -- you did appear in the -- at the IRG and at the Cabinet meeting on February 13th, but you did not speak at either of those meetings; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But the notes that you had prepared for those meetings, you did in fact pass along to various people; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So and if we can pull up PB.NSC.CAN.00003256? And this is a -- you've seen this already but just -- this is the email that you sent to Mr. Jones. And can you tell us who Mike Jones is?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So he's in Minister Mendocino's office?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Is that correct? And you would expect him to pass this information on to Minister Mendocino?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so in what you set out in that email to Mr. Jones, that was -- other than the situational report, but as far as your discussion of the Emergency Measures Act, that was included in that email; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then if we can pull up PB.NSC.CAN.00003245? And that was at -- sorry, that previous email was at 7:47. Oh, this is -- it's still up there. It's 12:47, which means it was 7:47. So that was prior to the Cabinet meeting; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then you also forwarded it on directly to Minister Mendocino and also to Jody Thomas, and can -- just for those who don't know, who is Jody Thomas?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And she's the National Security Advisor to the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- Prime Minister; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And this particular email includes the majority of the speaking points that you had earlier prepared to speak at the meeting ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- correct? So that information was passed onto both of those individuals at 8:03 by the looks of it from the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- from the timestamp on there; is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And part of that briefing, one of my friends took you to this, had to do with the guns that had been stolen in Peterborough; correct? Or part of your talking points had been to alert to people to that; do you recall that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I think if we scroll down in here, we will -- and I didn't make a note of the page.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
There it is.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Very good.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So that was information that you had had passed on, on February 13th; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And my friend indicated that those -- and at this point in time, you say that it's still being looked into. There's an ongoing investigation. You don't know if it's related to the current protest at that point in time; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And my friend rightly pointed out that it was sorted out rather quickly and the guns were thankfully retrieved a couple of days later, but that wasn't -- that was on February 16th, as I recall, after the Emergencies Act was invoked; is that right?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we go to the February 16th IRG minutes, which is SSM.NSC.CAN.00000401? And if we go just onto the third -- it's page 5 at the top of the page. Yes, if we scroll down a little. Right there. To the National Security Advisor providing her update. And you'll see there it says about halfway down, "While some trucks..." Oh, no sorry.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
That's the wrong place.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, yes, exactly. So she was providing that information, but I assume she got that information from you; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so everyone was informed that that was no longer a worry as of February 16th, but that was the first -- that was when the weapons were actually received, that's when people ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And my friends also discussed with you the delegation of the provisions -- the authorities that were provided to you under the Emergencies Act in regard to tow trucks. And I just want to take you to the February 17th IRG minutes the next day, which is SSM.NSC.CAN.00000402. And page 5 again. And about halfway down the page, just after the redactions, if I can have you read that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Just after the second set of redactions there.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So my question to you was I think you said earlier that you had only delegated those powers to Commissioner Carrique. This indicates that you'd delegated them to other RCMP members as well. So did you delegate those powers internally to the commanding officers in the other divisions?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then on -- still staying on the tow truck theme, can we have PB.CAN.00001628? And maybe we can just scroll through so the Commissioner can see the entire document. Do you recognize this?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Can you tell us what it is?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So it's an invoice from -- if we can scroll back up a little bit? It's to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And if we scroll down further ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- it's coming from Ontario. So do -- so your evidence is that this is the receipt that was sent to you from Ontario for the tow trucks that were compelled under the Emergencies Act?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Because I think you had said earlier it was a big bill, but you hadn't ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And is it your understanding -- what -- well, what is your understanding of your -- the RCMP's authority to pay this bill?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But pay for what? What are you given authority to pay for?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And Deputy Duheme, I want to turn to you for a moment with some of the other powers that were granted under the Emergencies Act. One of my friends from the CCLA spoke to you about, in particular, the economic provisions of the powers that were granted under the Emergencies Act. And you mentioned that the RCMP did not take any action in relation to insurance contracts. Did I hear that correctly?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And why is that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that sort of exercise of discretion in how and which particular aspects of the law to enforce at any given time, is that something that the police normally do or is that unusual?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Commissioner, I want to take you back to some more of the IRG minutes that -- from the meetings that took place while the Emergencies Act was in place. And I’d like to go to the February 18th minutes, which are SSM.NSC.CAN.00000403. And when we get there, to page 5, please? Your updates always seem to be page 5.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So if we can scroll down to the second last paragraph on the page? So that paragraph that starts: “As it relates to additional activity over the weekend, there are reports of additional convoys en-route to join the Ottawa protest including the Alberta Freedom Convoy, 3 chartered buses from Toronto and two from St Jerome and Gatineau. Police are ready to intercept and divert these convoys where possible.” Those -- that ability to divert convoys is -- what is that based on?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can also -- sorry, I’m afraid I didn’t take very good notes here. We’ll go to the next day’s IRG at SSM.NSC.CAN.00000 -- oh, no sorry, it’s not the next day, 406. This is a couple of days later, a few days later, on February 21st. And it’s page 5 again. And if we can scroll down to the second last paragraph again? And you’ll see there, in the middle -- the beginning of the paragraph, it talks about a: “…convoy travelling from Fort McMurray to Ottawa […] was indeed intercepted by the Ontario Provincial Police […] who advised participants not to go to Ottawa but did not prevent them from continuing their trip.” And is it your understanding that that advice -- what is your understanding of the advice that was given by the OPP at that point, if you have an understanding?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we can just go back a couple of days, the Commissioner has asked questions a couple of times about the ability for people to lawfully protest while this enforcement action was being taken. So I wanted to take you to the IRG minutes of February 20th, which is SSM.NSC.CAN.00000405. Page 5. And if we can go just -- just scrolling down. Just before the redaction. A little ways up from the redaction there. You’ll see: “[Police] order units continue to wear tactical gear…” Or sorry, no, the next one: “Police are also monitoring a gathering that has formed at the War Museum of approximately 100 people and a smaller gathering of 30-50 individuals at Confederation Park.” So can you tell me what you know about those gatherings and ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But they were permitted to ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- remain there and protest? Thank you. You, in answering some questions for counsel for former Chief Sloly, you indicated that the protest in Ottawa wasn’t a national security event, it was just an event, I think you said?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you were specifically talking about the Ottawa situation?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But when you say that you’re not assessing whether or not either the Ottawa protest or the situation in the country as a whole was a threat to the security of Canada; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
But in answer to one of my other friends’ questions about the definition in the CSIS Act, that’s not something that you were turning your mind to or that you were assessing?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And Deputy Duheme, I wanted to turn to you for a moment to discuss the plan that was put in place and developed by the Integrated Planning Unit in Ottawa. And you, as the gold commander. What was your view of how that plan was eventually executed?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And in that plan, when it was developed, what was the role of tow trucks?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And that was an integral part of the overall plan to clear out Ottawa?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you wouldn't have been able to accomplish that without those heavy tow trucks?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, but ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
For big rigs, what are your other options. I take it you can't articulate any other options at this point?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you've both spoken about the need to shrink the footprint when dealing with protests in general, and this protest in particular. Can you, either of you or both of you, explain to us why that's important?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So that prevented the footprint from growing as it ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- normally would. What was done to shrink the footprint that was already there before the enforcement action was taken?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you've also spoken -- I have two more questions.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
You've also spoken about children, to some extent. Can you tell me why -- what the risks are, or the concerns are in relation to having children in the vicinity when you're taking enforcement action?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And so based on all of the things that you've just said, would it be fair to say that the enforcement action in this case couldn't have happened in the way that it did without the Emergencies Act?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are all my questions.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, I’m just going to object again. These are legal interpretation questions that are being asked of the witness and that’s inappropriate.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good evening, Deputy Commissioner. Donnaree Nygard for -- one of the counsel for the Government of Canada. You spoke to Commission Counsel about some of the reasons that the tow truck companies were not willing to cooperate after the first time that they showed up and then they didn't the second time.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I -- I'm not sure if I caught all of the reasons that you indicated, but -- so perhaps I could just get you to repeat those again.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And do to your understanding what was the complaint of -- what was the group protesting about?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And did you have any understanding of what they were trying to accomplish with their protest?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And during the protests in Coutts on February 8th, the Alberta Government made an announcement rolling back of the mandates; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And did that have an impact on the protest?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And just to back up for a moment. There was obviously a number of border blockades across the country. The Coutts one was the first; correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And it developed around the same time that the convoys arrived in Ottawa?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And prior to the arrests that occurred on the 14th and the incident on the 13th that you've described, what, if any, level of violence or that kind of behaviour was there at the protest?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And my friend asked you about the charges that were laid, and I'm going to call up a document. It's PB.NSC.CAN.00008371. And this appears to be a briefing note that was provided for you. Is that what this is?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll down, there's an update on the arrests that are there. And is that a list at least for the first 11 people that were arrested of the charges that were laid?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you said that there were additional -- I believe you said there was 13 people in addition. Can you tell us what the other two were or does that list help distinguish that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I'm sorry, I was unclear in my question. I thought, and maybe I'm mistaken, I thought I had heard you say earlier that there were 13 individuals charged in relation in relation to the investigation, but that some were charged, not on that day, later, but perhaps I heard you wrong.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So we've got 11 listed here. So we've got a few missing; is that right?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. It's just what I was trying to clarify.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
After the blockade was resolved after these arrests and the protesters entered into the negotiations and agreed to hand over their keys and then clean up and leave the next day, did you receive any information in the following days about the possibility of additional blockades arising?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Threats, or not actual blockades arising, but were you receiving any -- and perhaps it's easier if I take you to a document. If we can call up PB.NSC.CAN.00004268? And first, can you tell us do you recognize what this document is?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we can scroll down towards -- oh, there. Up a little bit. The last bullet point there under "Superintendent Daroux". Was that information that was provided to you as well?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Oh, yes, we can go up to the top and see the date. The 17th.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And were you -- we'll pull up another document. PB.NSC.CAN.00008362. Have you seen this document before?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can scroll back up to the top? Right up to the top. So it talks about in order to keep protests legal. So is -- and then if we could go down? A little bit further. And then it quotes from the Emergency Act and the provisions that have to be complied with and the consequences that maybe occur if they aren't complied with. Do you know what this document was used for?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And do you know if they did?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And then if we can pull up one last document, PB.NSC.CAN.00005444. Now as the Commission indicated earlier, when you were interviewed, a number of your colleagues were also there including the Deputy Commissioner from B.C. We don't have him appearing before us here, so I'm going to ask you a question about B.C. This is an email that appears to be from an RCMP officer, or this one is to the RCMP officer, but if we scroll down, you can see at the beginning it appears to be from her. And then if we can go back up to the response she receives. And perhaps I should ask, have you seen this email before?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So could I have you read the response that starts, "Hi, Debra", just so you can familiarize yourself ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- with what it says?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And it seems to indicate that this individual was providing tow truck services as a result of being directed to by the Surrey RCMP under the Emergencies Act. What is your understanding of the delegation of the Commissioner's power to compel tow trucks within the RCMP? Was there -- was that power delegated to you, for example, or to your colleague in B.C. as far as you're aware?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And are the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- are the concerns expressed by this tow truck operator, who's saying that she's -- or they're going to comply but is expressing some concerns, are those similar to the concerns that you were hearing when you were attempting to get tow trucks?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are all my questions.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, it’s fine. Inputs into Cabinet are fine; discussions with Cabinet ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- are not.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I’m sorry; the form doesn’t actually say if the person is a designated person. So this is a form the witness hasn’t seen before today ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- and if you’re going to characterize it, please be very accurate about it.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, just to interject for a moment. In as far as the question is asking what Minsters may have discussed amongst themselves in those meetings, that would be covered by Cabinet.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me. Could -- we've never established the date of this document. Can we see what it's dated, please?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I am not arguing that. I'm just asking to establish ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- if there's a date on the document.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Perhaps at the last page.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
The witness has already said she's not going to interpret the Act. She's not a lawyer.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Good evening, Ms. Thomas.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Donnaree Nygard for the Government of Canada. I want to start out by asking you about something that one of my friends asked. The counsel for OPS put to you that the convoy participants in Ottawa wanted just one thing to be heard. What was your understanding of what the convoy participants wanted?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. We haven’t spent any time today -- and I’d like to spend a little bit of time -- discussing your role coordinating the response of the federal government to the events that were occurring in Ottawa and across the country. So can you describe to the Commissioner what role you played there and what the federal government was doing in that regard.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And what were you telling the deputy minister community in those meetings about what their approach should be to looking at this issue?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And this was happening in DMOC and at the same time there were the SSEs at the beginning of the process that were continuing. What's the relationship between those two?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So the work that was being done by the Deputy Minister community through DMOC to try and find solutions to this problem, when did that stop?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And did -- so -- I guess the point I'm getting at, on the 10th of February, when it moved from SSE to the IRG and the Track 1, and the ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- Track 2 was put in place, what were the -- what was the Deputy Minister community working on at that point?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So when you moved to the Track 1 and Track 2, the Deputy Minister community was still working on the issues in Track 1, what could you do to resolve with the existing authorities? Is that fair?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And that continued on from February 10th until?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you spoke to my friend for the City of Windsor about your discussion with Homeland Security in the United States. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So fair to say that they were expressing considerable concern about the situation?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So when we get to the period of February 13th and 14th, and you've talked about your role in coordinating the information that's coming from various intelligence communities within the Federal Government, and pulling that all together to provide advice to the Prime Minister. In the period February 13th and 14th, what was your assessment of the situation that was going on across Canada at that point?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you've made clear, I think in your earlier testimony, that your view that the section 2 CSIS Act definition, as applied by CSIS in the context of their particular mandate to investigate and collect information on individuals or groups, is very narrow. My understanding ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- that's your position? And am I understanding what you said correctly in answer to my friend from JCCF's question about this in relation to these events that your view is that it didn't meet the section 2 CSIS Act definition as CSIS would apply it in their context?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
You were asked by the Commission Counsel about whether your views were asked at the February 13th IRG regarding whether the Emergency Act should be invoked, and you said that you had indicated yes at this time. Can you tell us why?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And finally, can you tell us a little bit about how mis- and dis-information in the context of the convoy impacted on your decision-making and your advice and your assessments?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are all of my questions.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me. You've mischaracterized the witness' evidence. She didn’t agree with you that CSIS had assessed the group, the entire group in Ottawa.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
No objection.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
You’ll be happy to know, Commissioner, on a Friday evening that I have no questions for these witnesses.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I'm sorry. As far as you're asking what Cabinet deliberated, that’s protected by Cabinet confidence.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
I only had ten minutes to start with so it’s still not that long. Good afternoon -- or I guess good evening, Minister. My name is Donnaree Nygard. As you know, I am one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. I want to take you back in time a little bit to before the blockade -- the protest arrived in Ottawa. What was the situation with truck drivers being able to cross the border in both directions at that point in time?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned that you were coordinating with the U.S. who had a similar mandate in place. So if Canada had lifted or put back in place the exemption for truck drivers, would an unvaccinated truck driver be able to cross the Canada/U.S. border?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned supply chains as well. I understand that on January 31st you participated in a supply chain summit. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And you also spoke about the feedback that you were getting from the trucking industry and I just want to -- and industries in general. I just want to pull up a document. Mr. Clerk, if you could pull up SSM.CAN.00000958.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And is this a document you recognize, Minister?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And was this something you were aware of at the time?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And can we also pull up SSM.CAN.00000987, please. Do you recognize this letter?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And is this something that was -- it’s not addressed to you. It’s addressed to the prime minister and to all of the premiers. But were you provided with a copy of it?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can scroll down to the body of it. This was from the Canadian ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
--- Trucking Alliance. That’s right. And ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Yes, that’s correct. And the sentiments expressed in this letter, are those reflective of the sorts of things that you were hearing from the various groups that you've just referred to?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then can we have SSM.CAN.988, please? This is, as I understand it -- well, perhaps you can tell us who Ninu Forrest is? Do you know?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So this appears to be a readout from a call you had on February 11th with the Teamsters; am I reading that correctly?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. We don’t need to go through the document but can you tell us about that call? You can look at the document to refresh your memory if you need.
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And was this reflective of the kind of information that you were receiving from other stakeholders in the industry?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can pull up SSM.NSC.CAN00000780. This appears to be a summary of the stakeholder engagement by you and your staff on February 10th. Have you see this before?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
So the first entry there is an engagement you had with Ms. ---
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you -- that you've already spoken about. And then the next one is your call with Secretary Buttigieg which you’ve already spoken about, if we could scroll down. Then there’s an entry in regard to an engagement you had with Global Automakers. And you referred to this in passing but could you tell us a little bit more about that call? And were these all on February 10th or this just a summary of the calls that had occurred until up to that date?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And I'm not going to go through each of the entries on here but if we can just scroll down further you'll see there a number of consultations there listed that were conducted, apparently, by your staff. But is it fair to say that your staff would have briefed you on all of these consultations?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And if we can pull up PB.CAN.00000734. And just while that’s being pulled up, you had been taken earlier to the February 12th IRG minutes, in which you discussed Manitoba, and I believe you said you’d had a consultation with your counterpart in Manitoba. Is that correct?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
And this is a letter from the Premier of Manitoba dated February 11th. Were you aware of this letter?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well we’ll leave it at that then. You also continued to conduct consultations with some of your provincial counterparts after the invocation of the Emergencies Act, as I understand it. Can you tell us about that, please?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
On February 14th?
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Donnaree Nygard, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are all my questions.