Volume 5 (October 19, 2022)
Volume 5 has 305 pages of testimony. 22 people spoke before the Commission, including 2 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Mitchell Kersys.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Diane Deans, Councillor - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 651 times)
- Pat Morris, Superintendent (Supt) - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 329 times)
- Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 283 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 156 times)
- Rebecca Jones, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 154 times)
- Eric Brousseau, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 100 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 80 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 77 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 65 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 53 times)
- Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 51 times)
- Donnaree Nygard, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 39 times)
- Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 19 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 19 times)
- Alan Honner, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 16 times)
- Cara Zwibel, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 16 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 13 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 9 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 4 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 1 time)
- Emilie Taman, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 1 time)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Wednesday, October 19, 2022, at 9:30 a.m.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, bonjour. Welcome to Day whatever. We're going to take a short break. Counsel have asked to have a few moments to review one piece of evidence before we start, so we're going to take 15 minutes and we'll start at a quarter to 10. And again, I apologize for the delay, but these things will happen. So we're starting at 9:45 this morning. Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 9:31 a.m.
Upon resuming at 9:45 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning again. Re- bonjour. I take it there's a witness ready to go? I believe so?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. Commission Counsel would like to call as their next witness ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could introduce yourself for the record?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Commission Counsel, and our next witness is Councillor Diane Deans.
The Registrar (POEC)
Councillor Deans, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I will affirm.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
My name is Diane Deans, D-I-A- N-E D-E-A-N-S.
MS. DIANE DEANS, Affirmed
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thanks.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Councillor Deans.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Good morning.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So, Councillor Deans, I understand that you're a City Councillor with the City of Ottawa?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I am.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you were Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board during kind of the events of February -- January/February earlier this year up until February 16th; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You had an interview with Commission Counsel on August 16th of this year?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I'll pull up WTS00000010. And this is a summary of your interview; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You had an opportunity to review that summary?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I have.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any corrections?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do not.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so we'll put that summary into evidence. Councillor Deans, I understand that the Ottawa Police Services Board, which I'll refer to as the OPSB or the Board, it's a seven-member civilian oversight body for the OPS; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And the City appoints three councillors to that Board and one resident?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And then the province appoints another three of those members?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you were the chair of the Board during the relevant period?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I want to start by getting a sense of what was known to the Board prior to the convoy's arrival. I understand that the Board was regularly briefed by OPS leadership and that you personally as the Chair also had regular communications with OPS leadership?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
How often would you speak to Chief Sloly, for example?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Daily, sometimes multiple times a day.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that -- from your witness summary that you were first briefed on the incoming Freedom Convoy by Chief Sloly and John Steinbachs, Executive Director of Strategy and Communications for OPS on January 24th; is that accurate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is accurate.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what do you recall about the information that was relayed to you during that briefing?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was very -- it was the first indication that I had that this was happening, and I hadn't been following it in the media, so it was the first time I sort of took stock that there was this convoy rolling across the country heading to the nation's capital. So it was basically we know about this, we're working with intelligence agencies to gather information, they're coming at us, and we're preparing for them to arrive on Friday.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was there any information provided at that time about kind of the -- how significant the number of trucks would be or how long they intended to stay?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't -- the timeline's a little fuzzy in my head, but I don't believe at that very first briefing they had that much detail. They just sort of conveyed to me that this was happening. There was a Council meeting on the 26th. I had asked the mayor if we could come to Council and brief Council on it when we were getting more information, but he said no, so I called a meeting of the Board on the 26th when there was more information shared.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we'll get to that meeting in just a little bit. Before going to that, I'd like to go to OPS00002978. So this is a copy of a briefing by Deputy Ferguson that was -- if you scroll down to the bottom, please, just a little up? Up, up, up. Okay. So this is an email from Deputy Ferguson to Kim Ayotte forwarding information that was provided to the Board. So you see here it says below is a -- in the third line, "Below is the information we are sharing with our Board." So if we can go down? Over here, perfect. Thank you. And you'll see it says, "The purpose of this email is to update you on a Trucker convoy scheduled to arrive in Ottawa beginning Friday, January 28th. This will be a significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period." And this, again, was on January 25th. Do you remember this information being just ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- provided to you at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding of significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, it's interesting because, you know, I was starting to watch what was happening coming across the country. I was aware that there was large trucks. I was aware that, you know, they seemed to be picking up some steam as they rolled across the country. I was aware of this unique situation where they were gathering a lot of money through a GoFundMe site. So, you know, I understood that it was coming at us quickly and that it was different than things had - - you know, other -- we see a lot of protests in Ottawa. Everyone that lives here knows that, but this one did feel different. And, you know, it said could go on for a prolonged period. I had discussed with Chief Sloly that possibility, and what I recall Chief Sloly saying to me is that he would be very surprised if they were still here on Monday.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember when he would have told you that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, it was on the Thursday, so I guess it was this day, the 25th, because I had phoned him several times. And, you know, the more I was watching this, the more concerned I was getting. And he said to me, "What are you so worried about?" And I told him just what I told you, the number of trucks, the size of those trucks, the amount of money that they have. And he said that he would be surprised if they were still here on Monday.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And based on what you just said, is it fair to say that this kind of messaging around significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period, you just said there's a number of protests in Ottawa. Is it fair to say that this messaging was something different than what you were used to?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I think this is different. I mean, I think that there was a recognition that this was unique among demonstrations. I don't think we knew how unique it was going to be in the end, but I think there was, you know -- just watching the whole thing unfold as it moved across the country was something that we really hadn't seen often.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
We heard earlier this week from Steve Kanellakos that in the advance of the convoy's arrival, the City had received information from a local Hotel Association advising that protesters were booking stays of 30 days, and that that had been forwarded to the OPS. Did the OPS ever brief -- ever kind of work this information to any of the briefings for the Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So did the Board have any information on this at all? Were they notified?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Okay, so I'd like to pull up OPB00001257. So these are the minutes of that first board meeting on January 26th. This is a public meeting. So you called this special meeting; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And during that meeting, the Board was briefed by Chief Sloly and his deputies?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand this meeting was called on short notice. Why did you feel the need to call this meeting at this time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, as I said, I had asked the Mayor to allow us to come to Council and share that information through the Council process and include the Board members. He didn't want to do that. So I still felt that it was important, based on what I was hearing and seeing, that we provide an update to the Board and that they have an opportunity to ask any questions they had.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I'd like to go to page 2, and if we go down to the first kind of substantive paragraph here. It says, second sentence, "They" -- they, being the OPS: "...indicated that there was a coordination of intelligence between agencies, and the Service noted expecting that the 'Freedom Convoy' would arrive in Ottawa as early as Thursday, and likely to remain through Sunday." I'd like to just look at another quote and then get your thoughts. So at the third paragraph, it says: "Operational plans in place had been informed by threat and risk assessments. The Service advised that they had been in contact with demonstration organizers, and the information suggested that it would be a fluid event that could go on for an extended period. The number of people involved was not known." So were you able to -- these two kind of statements seem a little bit different ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- in tone. Was any information provided that would allow you to reconcile them?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did speak to Chief Sloly about this, and he did -- he didn't share the intelligence information with me, but he did tell me that he did not feel that anything that they were receiving through Intelligence channels would lead them to believe that this was other than a protest that would come and go in a typical fashion.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And when he advised you of this, this was not -- this was during a one-on-one call or during a Board meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
During a one-on-one call.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'd like to go to the third page, and the second paragraph on that page. So it says: "The Service noted that their priority was to the maintain safety of the demonstrators, their members and the community as a whole. The unpredictable nature of an event such as this was referenced." To what extent did the OPS brief the Board on its operational plans during this first meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
They did not provide the Board with a detailed operational plan. In fact, we never saw a detailed operational plan throughout until close to the very end. We were given assurances that there were operational plans in place to address the situation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was -- here it talks about the priority being to maintain safety of the demonstrators, their members and the community as a whole. Did the Board enquire as to whether there was a plan to ensure their egress from the City at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I can't recall.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And at this juncture, before the convoy arrived, did the Board request that it be briefed with the OPS's operational plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
They -- the Board was asking about the plan. I don't know that we ever asked for a detailed briefing. I know I had had conversations with Chief Sloly about the plan, and my impression of what he was saying to me is that they didn't want to share too much detail, but they, you know, they were providing assurance that there was planning in place.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Would it be fair to say that at this juncture the Board wasn't asking to see that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. I think as the protests went on, the Board became more interested in a lot more of the details of the planning.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And in this passage that I read, the second paragraph, it sets out what the priorities are. What extent did the Board have an opportunity to direct the OPS as to its priorities with respect to this event?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We discussed the high level priority, which was that, you know, we recognised the right of protesters to come to our city and protest in a peaceful way. That we recognised the volatility of this situation. We recognised that our Number 1 goal is that there would be no serious injury or loss of life to anyone.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so as Chair of the Board did you feel that the OPS -- that -- or that the Board had had an opportunity to provide input into those priorities ahead of the convoy's arrival?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think we were sympatico with the service on what those high level priorities were.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let's go to the fifth paragraph on this page, so the one that starts with "A question". It says: "A question was raised regarding actions that would be taken should a highway or other major route be blockaded. The Service explained that there are a number of considerations when faced with unlawful activity, and that their reaction will depend on whether the blockade[s] [create] a large public safety risk. It was further noted that access to certain sites would be limited, and that the OPS plan had been put together to enable maximum flexibility with layers of scalable resources." Was the Board briefed on whether the OPS's plan would allow or restrict access to the downtown core?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't believe that that question specifically was asked until after they got here and we started seeing what was happening, unfortunately. But you can see here what we were told, that it was, you know, flexible layers of scalable resources, and maximum flexibility. But I don't think we got into the details of that. And I -- soon after their arrival, I started asking those questions, like why did we let them in here. Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know -- again, at this juncture, were you briefed on any contingency plans in the event that the protesters didn't leave at the end of the weekend?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think that we were aware there was a possibility that they wouldn't all leave, but listening to the Chief, the probability was that they would. So I -- you know, and the Chief was also telling me that we had negotiators speaking with representatives of the convoy, and he was conveying to me that they were representative of about 70 percent of the people that were here, and that not 100 percent. So that even when there was discussions, there was some potential that what they were learning wasn't necessarily always going to take place. So I think there was the sense that things could be different than the anticipation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were you satisfied that it didn't go as expected and some either remained, or most remained, that there was a plan in that event?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, they’re -- I mean, I think the level of detail I had is that they were working with the organizers and that they believed, or maybe it was hopefulness, I don’t know, but I had the impression that they believed that they were going to leave.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that during this meeting, the OPS advised the Board that it had a staffing plan for this event. Was -- were any resourcing concerns communicated at this juncture?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not to the best of my recollection.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know whether there were any contingency plans if resources became overwhelmed?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, my impression is that there’s a sense at the OPS that being the nation’s capital, we’ve seen a lot, in terms of large-scale events in this city. And generally speaking, there is coordination with, you know, the other policing agencies that occupy space in the City of Ottawa, and that that kind of thing would continue in this. But in terms of looking for extraordinary, you know, assistance, at this point, that wasn’t being discussed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I’d like to pull up OPP00001494. So this is a provincial operations intelligence Bureau Situational Awareness Bulletin dated January 26th. So this is the same day as this Board meeting. And we’ll go to the third paragraph on the left side there. So it says: “Once in Ottawa, Freedom Convoy 2022 organizers have stated an intent to remain at Parliament Hill until the Federal government concedes to repeal all COVID-19 public health restrictions and mandates. Organizers have indicated they are planning to stage disruptions that may gridlock areas around Parliament buildings and parts of Ottawa. There is no expressed departure date for when participants will disperse or the action will end.” And I expect that we’ll be hearing this afternoon, I believe, that Chief Sloly and some members of the OPS referred these reports from the Bureau that would have contained this kind of intelligence. Were you or the Board ever provided with this kind of intelligence or even kind of a high- level summary of this type of intelligence?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And this -- the first Board meeting on the 26th, that was a public meeting; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And neither you, nor Chief Sloly, requested that there be an in-camera portion?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t believe so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Would it be fair to say that more information could have been provided, had there been an in-camera portion?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I think that’s fair. I didn’t know about this information, so didn’t know what to ask for, but, you know, hindsight is a great thing, but in hindsight, yeah, I would have liked to have this information and would have liked to know about it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And are you able to explain, you know, the -- was there some rational to why it was felt that there was no in-camera session necessary at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
In my -- my initial goal for that meeting on the 26th was to share the information that was available. Of course, I didn’t have the benefit of knowing what information was available, apparently. So, you know, I didn’t know that there was perhaps some intelligence information that could have been shared. I guess I really had the impression from Chief Sloly that intelligence information was not to be shared. So maybe a lesson learned there, but I had the impression intelligence information is kept in very close proximity to the people on a need-to-know basis and that it’s not generally shared.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So was your understanding that the Board, even in camera, wouldn’t necessarily be entitled to this kind of information?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
My impression is this information was not going to be shared with the Board what they were receiving intelligence. I mean, Chief Sloly was telling me things like, you know, “We’re not getting any messages from intelligence agencies that it’s other than protest. We expect them to be gone on Monday.” That’s what -- the message I was getting.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what led you to come to the conclusion that the Board wasn’t entitled to receive this kind of information?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I guess I took Chief Sloly at his word.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Had he requested for an in-camera portion that day, would you have been amenable to that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Of course.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I understand from your witness summary that it’s during that first week that you realized that the protest was turning into something that was more prolonged. How did you reach that assessment?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well a lot of the protestors did leave on Sunday night, but the expectation was a lot more of them were going to go than actually vacated the Parliamentary precinct. And Chief Sloly was telling me that they had negotiators, they were talking to them, they were still hopeful that they were going to clear out. And I think it was really about the Thursday that the conversations had broken down and it appeared that there were more people coming back on that second weekend, that it really resonated with me that, you know, perhaps it was a bit of wishful thinking that they were going to be able to get this wrapped up and gone after that horrific first weekend. And then the thought of going through a second weekend with more people, you know, wreaking havoc in our neighbourhoods in the downtown core was disturbing.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Who had told you that conversations had broken down?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Chief Sloly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And is that communications between the PLT and the protestors? Is that ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- what you believe he was referring to?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So from -- you had this first meeting on January 26th. From January 27th through the first week and the first weekend -- or sorry, through the first week, the Board didn’t meet again until the next Saturday, February 5th; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, I believe that’s correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And why is that when you called the next meeting? Why not earlier?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
So there was some conflict and I was being advised by some people that I needed to limit the number of meetings that we were calling because police resources were stretched thin and every time I called a meeting, it took a whole lot of police resources off the street and off the front- line, and that they needed to prepare for that time consuming endeavour, so we needed to package up questions that we had and filter them through the communications department of police to try and give as much flexibility to police to do their primary job, which was to try to shut down the occupation of our city. So I was trying to be respectful of that, but also, I was in touch with Chief Sloly a lot, I was communicating with Board Members and with Members of Council as they requested. But the Vice-Chair of our Board, Sandy Smallwood, who has been on the Board a lot longer than I had, and has connections across the country, one of the things that he was doing was speaking with other experts in the field of police governance and talking about what we needed to be doing as a Board. And Sandy and I were talking regularly about that because, you know, we’re finding our way in something -- I’d never been through something like this before and it was new to us. And we were very concerned. We were cognisant of the -- what happened in Toronto with the G20, very aware of the Morden report. I’ve read the Morden report again through that process and we didn't -- we wanted to make sure that we were doing things properly. And so, Mr. Smallwood was in touch professor Andy Graham at Queens University, he was in touch with Alok Mukherjee who had been the Chair of the Toronto Police Services Board, he was in touch with other experts across the country. And Sandy and I were talking frequently about this, and on the Saturday morning we had this conversation about the depth of questioning that we as a Board were doing, and I had decided at that point that I needed a lot more detail about what the resource requirement was. Because our -- the Board is an oversight body. It has very limited roles, but what we need -- our primary mandate is to ensure adequate and effective policing in the City of Ottawa, and I wasn't feeling comfortable that we could -- we were meeting that test. And so, I decided that I needed to call an emergency Board meeting on that Saturday, to put really a simple question to the Chief, and that was, what do you need? What will it take to end this occupation of our city? And that was the purpose, it was sort of the sole purpose of that meeting, to get to the heart of the resource issue and what it would take for us to restore peace to our city.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll get to that February 5th meeting in a little bit. Who was advising you not to over impose on the police by not calling too many meetings?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, the police and their communications people. I listened to Serge Arpin’s testimony the other day, where he noted he had also suggested to me that we not call a lot of Board meetings because it was consuming resources that were needed elsewhere.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I'd like to go to OPB00001624. So these are notes from a February 1st briefing of the Board by Chief Sloly and Deputy Bell. Do you remember this briefing?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Vaguely.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
There was a lot of them. Was it typical for the Board to receive this kind of briefing outside of regular Board meetings?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
At that point, yes. I mean, we were kind of -- we were kind of finding our way, in terms of not taking up too much time and making sure that we were getting the information that we felt we needed in the performance of our oversight role.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We can just go down a little bit on the first page. Okay. The fourth bullet down says: “Some resources have returned to GTA, but more resources retained from Peel, Hamilton and OPP More specific requests to OPP and RCMP” So whenever the -- my understanding is that whenever the OPS would receive additional resources from another police force, you were responsible for signing the memorandums of understanding?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how -- these resources that are mentioned, again this is February 1st, at this stage can you maybe just describe the numbers and how long they were generally staying for?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, it varied. There were a lot of police agencies that were offering to assist the City of Ottawa, there was Hamilton and Peel, I think Toronto, Cornwall, there were a lot, and they were coming and going. They were freeing up resources as they could and some of them would stay for a week, some of them would stay for a number of days. We were taking what we could get because we were in need of all of the help we could get at that point. And so, there were other events they would take them back, for example the convoy decided to go to Toronto in that, I think it was the second weekend. And so a lot of the GTA resources that had come to Ottawa got sucked back out of Ottawa to help with the City of Toronto.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in terms of the significance of the amount of officers, can you speak to that generally?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, we were grateful for the help that we were getting from those other policing agencies. But you know, this was I think the 1st, and it was the 5th when I had actually really drilled down with chief Sloly in that meeting that I called, the special meeting, and said we need to know exactly what this is going to take to end this occupation of our city, and I need to see detail on that. Like, what is it, who is it? And you need to lay that out. And I think that was a turning point.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'm interested here when it says, “More specific requests to OPP and RCMP”. This was as you mentioned prior to that Board meeting on the 5th, prior to the letter that you and the mayor sent out to the province and the feds. So what kind of requests at this time were being made of the OPP and the RCMP?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, they were -- I guess that was my issue. They were more vague, in that Chief Sloly, and I can't exactly remember the timeline, you probably have it there. But Chief Sloly had made a comment that there may not be a policing solution. I can't recall what day he said that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I believe it’s the 2nd, but ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
The 2nd.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- I'm sure we'll have that somewhere.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Okay. He had made that comment and it sort of sent a ripple through the city and the downtown core, and a lot of observers of what was happening there, because it wasn’t entirely understood. But it was alarming that the Chief of Police is saying there may not be a policing solution to this situation. And I guess what I took it to mean is that, there wasn't a policing solution locally with OPS, and OPS is -- it's a city police service. It does community policing, and emergency response, and a lot of other things, and certainly it involves itself in large scale events, because we are the national capital and we have over time. But we hadn't seen something like this before. It was clearly different, had a different flavor. You know, the whole thing was not like anything anyone had seen in the city before, and I think it had become clear to Chief Sloly that we did not have the resources inside Ottawa police. Nor did we have the expertise in terms of, you know, setting out a real plan on how you're going to get this tiger by the tail, inside police. We just hadn't had much experience with this, and so that's what I took from what Chief Sloly, is that we're going to need a lot of help, and that's what I took him to mean from that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You mentioned needing, kind of external expertise. Is that something that Chief Sloly said to you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Um, no, I ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Or was it just your assessment?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I came to that conclusion. I can't specifically say it to you, he specifically said that to me, but I got there in terms of understanding that, and maybe it was later. Because once the RCMP and the OPP embedded into our command centre and they had a joint command structure where are they brought with them those kinds of resources, we were starting to see things coming together.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So coming back to this briefing, so I understand it, as Chief Sloly is advising you and the Board that more specific requests were being made to the OPP and the RCMP; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
But you're not clear on exactly what those resources -- those requests were that were being made?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think they were just saying we need help, but my issue when I called that meeting later that week on the Saturday, was that we needed to enunciate what that was.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Is it at this point that the Board was advised that more resources were necessary; is this around the time, the first time the Board is advised?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, if we can go to page six, near the bottom of that page, okay, so -- just going up just a tiny bit, okay. So there’s a question asked: “If there was legal authority issued around a Court Order for removal what would be the threshold for removing trucks and people, a large conglomerate of people and vehicles?” And then my understanding is Trish responds: “Indicated earlier on that we had a number of OPP commanders involved with previous occupation events. Consistently what we are hearing an injunction is an option on the table. Everyone we have spoken to we are not feeling that an injunction is the best way to go. Clear indication that an injunction might be the worst way to go. We will keep all options on the table and we’ll be able to justify using or not using them.” So do you know who made this statement?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think it was Trish Ferguson.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember this discussion about an injunction at this time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t remember specifically Trish answering this, but I know there was one discussion around an injunction. There was -- I mean it’s interesting now that you put it in front of us, but there was a lot going on here. It was as whirlwind for 20 days and it’s hard to remember every single thing that every person said and ordered, so it’s nice we have notes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Absolutely. And I’m interested in -- here there’s a statement that an injunction might be the worst way to go. I’m wondering if you have any insight into what that meant?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I phoned David White, who was the City Solicitor, to talk about the issue of an injunction, because it was one of the tools that occurred to me that was in the toolbox that could provide some help. And I had that conversation with David and it was a bit -- it went a bit like this; it was like ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Well, I’m not necessarily interested in the content of the conversation.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
There’s solicitor/client privilege potentially here, so just try to be careful, please, counsel.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Absolutely.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just for the Ottawa Coalition, I believe solicitor/client privilege has been waived already on a considerable amount of the advice from Mr. White to City Council. We do have his memo; wouldn’t this be a subject matter upon which there’s already been solicitor/client waived?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Mr. Commissioner, the one memo was legal information. Mr. White deliberately did not mark the document solicitor/client privilege because he didn’t intend privilege to apply. So there’s been no waiver. We have been very reasonable in our redactions where Mr. White was acting as part of the City leadership team -- well, not officially, but an important person providing strategic or tactical advice. We have released that where there’s legal advice, though there’s been no waiver.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we’ve got into a bit of a dispute here, so we’ll try and get it organized in a proper way. So, firstly, what is being sought? Are you intending to pursue this?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
My intention with the question was just to understand what was said at this meeting; and my understanding is that Mr. White was not the person answering this question; so that was my intent for this particular question.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So what you’re trying to understand is what was the result of that meeting?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Was what the meaning of, you know, an injunction might be the worst way to go, which was apparently communicated in this briefing, what that meant.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What she understood from that and not to relate the specific statements by ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Correct.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the lawyer?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Correct.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any objection to that?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
None, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any problem with that? I see you’re standing.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To my friend’s positions, and I, based on what has been said, I am probably going to go there in my own examination, but I would just like to point out this. I understand that the Police Service Board or Police Commission, has their own legal counsel. It’s not Mr. White. There’s no solicitor/client relationship between this witness and Mr. White, and in my respectful submission as a result, there’s no issue with privilege. Further, if it was a personal solicitor/client relationship if the witness would like to waive solicitor/client privilege, that’s her prerogative.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So I think – oh, sorry, yes? You can remain seated, it’s probably better for the microphones. As long as I can see you, I’m happy.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I do have a concern in my submission, privilege, if there was privilege, privilege was waived, there is considerable documentation. There are memos from Mr. White; there is a witness statement from Mr. White and it may be, although this witness may not go further, it may well be a subject on which there will be cross-examination because once you open that door, you can’t close the door again and say, “Well, I’m only going to give you this, but I won’t answer that question.”
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think there’s a real issue around this also with respect to the testimony of the Mayor. I think you talked about this subject I believe also. So what I’d suggest, is counsel can discuss this. At this point it’s academic. I understand what you’re saying about it and it may come up on cross, so I’d suggest counsel, and Commission counsel, discuss this at the break or at the lunch because it should be discussed before the cross- examination. And certainly there has been a lot of talk about legal opinions, but I’m not going to go much farther at this point; it’s a question of what the City is going to -- the position the City will take and if that could be cleared up over the break, or the lunch, that would be appreciated; okay? Go ahead.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Maybe then if I could just broadly answer your question; I think that the part that says there was a clear indication that an injunction might be the worst way to go, I think they were referring to the concern if they wrote an injunction in a way that it was denied by a court.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can go to the next page, near the bottom of that page seven. There is a question here: “Can you put boundaries, protect their right to protest but limit where they can go?” And the answer is: ”Very little.” Do you recall who said this during this meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think it might have been Chief Sloly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding of the reason that there was very little that could be done to limit access to further vehicles wanting to enter the downtown core?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There seemed to be a view that there was a Charter right to allow those vehicles into that area. And also I had taken that up with the City Manager, Steve Kanellakos in an email exchange I did with Mr. Kanellakos, and he said that there were no other places for the vehicles to go basically, so -- that seemed to be their view, those sort of conflicting views, but the two that I had heard at the time when the vehicles were there.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to go to document ONT40001120. Go to the bottom of that document, just to provide the context; just the very bottom. So moving up from there. So this is just to kind of provide you the context. So my understanding is that on February 1st Krista Ferraro, who is the Executive-Director of the Board; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Had a call with Lindsay Gray; and who’s Lindsay Gray?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
She, at the time, was the Board advisor from the Solicitor General’s Office.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And there was a call on February 1st at -- about operational decisions; do you -- were you on this call? Do you remember this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t believe I was on that call.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can just go up to the top, then, of the document. So this is the email from the Solicitor General's Office, Advisor Lindsey Gray, to Ms. Ferraro, and it provides some citations, I guess from the Morden Report. Do you remember seeing this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so do you know what the context was for Ms. Ferraro reaching out to the Board advisor on this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We were -- the Board was very cognisant of our role as an oversight body, and we -- you know, we really had the problems that the Toronto Police Services Board had gotten into during the G20 in the forefront of our mind, we didn't want to go down the same path and make the same mistakes. So we were trying to, in real time, I guess, learn from that and seek as much advice as we could about our role and, you know, the art of the possible, what we were allowed to do, where that line was. And you know, it might be a little bit foggy to some people, but Morden shed a lot of light on it in their report. And it's a valuable document, and we wanted to understand the Solicitor General's interpretation on some of that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So it's fair to say that during this first week, the -- you and the Board were trying to come to a full understanding of what your role was in this kind of situation?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And maybe at a high- level, could you -- you know, what were the key takeaways that you can recall of what the Board's role was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
So the Morden Report, basically, is sort of a guideline for what happens in this kind of a large event situation, large scale situation, and where that line between the oversight and the operations is. And I think what Morden was pointing out, and my understanding, is the Board can -- the Board cannot direct the Chief in terms of Operations, but the Board can certainly ask questions about the plan, the details of the plan. The Board can asks questions about the resource requirements, what the Service needs, and the Board can work to assist the Service in those areas. And so -- and you know, all of that, with the backdrop of our mandate, is to ensure the provision and adequate and effective policing. So we were in this situation trying to learn from the Morden Report and make sure that we were ultimately fulfilling our oversight role.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, that's helpful. Was your understanding also that the Board had a role in setting priorities and objectives in the ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- context of a large event?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Great. Save me time in not having to read a quote, so that's good. If we can just go ONT0001112. So this is just an email a week later. Mr. Swaita, I believe, one of the Board members, I guess had heard... If you can go right to the bottom, to the first email in the chain. Had heard that this engagement between Ms. Ferraro and the advisor had taken place, and was asking to be briefed. Do you know why kind of the information wasn't provided to the whole Board from the outset?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I would suggest to you that there was -- it was just a resource issue. Our Board office has an executive director and one administrative assistant. And there was an awful lot coming at that Board office during this, and I think it was just a resource issue.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Okay, I'd like to go to OPB00000424. So this is on February 3rd, and it's an exchange between you and Chief Sloly. So if we could go to the first part of the exchange. Keep going down to the next -- yeah. So this is an email from you to the Chief, and my understanding is that you are offering him support in securing additional resources. Do you recall that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And then if we go up to Chief Sloly's response. He responds that the OPS is making: "...efforts to secure additional resources from RCMP, OPP and municipal services." And he's encouraging the Board to use their influence to do the same. Do you remember that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
What -- and it may be that you've already given me the answer, but what kind of resource requests did you understand were being made at this time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
This was for additional, mostly boots on the ground officers. Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And those were requests being made directly from the OPS to their policing counterparts at the OPP and the RCMP?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know how many officers were being requested at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
See, that was the issue. I -- they weren't providing them with, in my estimation, enough information about the resource requirement, they're just saying "we need help, and send what you can." And to me, that wasn't good enough, it wasn't clear enough. That's why I ultimately called that meeting on the Saturday.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you know -- as the requests were being made police to police, how did you come to know that that was the nature of the requests being made?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was in constant touch with Chief Sloly. We were talking about resources every day, how many were there, how many were coming, how many were going. You know, they -- what was possible with the resources that we had? We're getting requests from members of Council, especially in the impacted areas, to send more resources, we don't have more resources. We have a police service by now that is very tired. We've had people working overtime, they have been working under very stressful conditions, they haven't had any time off. And we know that there is a real need for more assistance.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know, at this time, these resources, were they being requested to maintain the kind of a tired police force, or was it to build up to enough capacity to take enforcement action? Do you know?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, in one conversation, I can't tell you the day because it's all kind of melded together in my mind, but in one conversation with the Chief, I mean he was saying, "The resources that we're getting now are just allowing us to do what we're doing, they're not allowing us to advance any further. And you know, we have a whole city to police out there, it's not just the downtown, and we've pulled resources out of that as well, but you know, it's not sustainable."
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know if that conversation was before your letter went out to the feds and the Province?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe it was.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So on February 5th, as we've discussed, you call this meeting of the Board. And so what -- I understand it was called on short notice. What led you to call it on an urgent basis?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was the weekend. A lot more people had come to town. They were wreaking havoc, honking horns, having parties on Parliament Hill, you know, really terrorising our residents, and it was just going on and on. And I felt at that point we're spinning our wheels, and something more had to be done, something had to change. And I was getting frustrated. And we're probably going to talk about this later, but I didn't know that there were issues, you know, that the RCMP and the OPP had because nobody told me that. But I couldn't understand why the resources weren't coming, but in my mind we needed to enunciate exactly the resource requirement and what that was for, and what it would take. I mean, we'd had the Chief say publicly that there was perhaps no policing solution. I took it to mean we didn't have enough at Ottawa Police, so what did we need? What would it take? What did that look like to bring it to an end? And by Saturday, I was just -- I think I was just, you know, at my wit's end, honestly. And I was just bombarded with constituents, and calls from members of Council, and calls from Board members, and people with all kinds of suggestions, and what we might be thinking of doing, from bringing in the army to everything else. And I'm -- and I just -- trying to be rational about this and think we need to lay out exactly what we need, and we need to do it now. And I phoned Chief Sloly and I said, "I'm going to call a special Board meeting and I'm going to ask you what it would take in terms of resource requirement to bring this thing to an end, and I want you to answer that question." And, I mean, he was really busy. I understood that. He didn't want me to do that meeting, but I just felt it had to be done.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we could go to OPB00001264? So these are the minutes of that February 5th meeting. If we could go to page 5? So in the second paragraph, it says, "Although the Board expressed frustration at the lack of clearly outlined plan that would result in the end of the demonstration, the Service noted having articulated a framework aimed at their surge and contain strategy." So I take it at this meeting the Board was pushing to get more information on what the plan was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were you advised at this point that there was a plan to actually bring the -- bring these events to an end?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We were advised that there were plans in place, there were pieces of plans, and, you know, that they were working -- it was an evolving strategy, as I understood it. As things evolved, the plan was evolving, and there -- and being worked on in sort of real time. But I just - - I was looking for more detail.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were you provided with more detail?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
The next day the Chief came back and provided more detail. He provided a list of his resource requirements and what that looked like in terms of officers and other civilians that would be useful in the overall plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So the next day he provides you with details on the resources that were necessary?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And we'll go to that table.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Okay.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Was any further insight provided on what the, you know, the operational plan was to specifically bring it to an end?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't remember how much information they gave us on, like, detail -- laying out we're going to do this on this day and this on this day. We didn't get that level of detail. Until the very, very end, we were starting to see those levels of here it is, but my impression was it wasn't that well hatched at that point.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And here it says, "... the Service noted having articulated a framework aimed at their surge and contain strategy." What was your understanding of the objective of the surge and contain strategy? Was it to bring this to an end, or was it to manage the situation?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. Well, I think the ultimate goal was to bring it to an end. I know that some of their strategies were specifically targeted to specific installations. And, you know, I guess they felt that it was methodical. You had to do things in a certain order and, you know, address one issue before you addressed the next issue, and it was a resource requirement. I guess, the more resources we had, the more they could move forward.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let's go to page 3 and it's the fourth paragraph down. So it says, "The Service had received supports from the [OPP], the [RCMP], multiple surrounding municipal services, however still needed more." I take it again that you were aware of these resources coming in because you had signed MOUs?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. But, I mean, yes, I was aware of them coming in, but it was -- there was some creative math around how many resources were actually there and who knew they were there and on the ground, because there were three shifts, I believe. One time there were 10-hour shifts. They moved to 12-hour shifts. So to get the -- to really get a clear understanding of how many police officers at any one time were, you know, in active service was a bit difficult.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And at this point, again, this is on the 5th, are the resources coming in more significant?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, it's such a good question because, you know, we were hearing that there were more resources than we were seeing. And Chief Sloly and I, not just this day, but many days had conversations about who was there, and who was saying what, and what those officers were, and both from the provincial perspective. I mean, I think Sylvia Jones actually dialed back. She said they had sent 1500 officers. They had done no such thing. And but she did actually walk that back later and said that's actually not correct. And then some of the RCMP officers weren't under the command of Ottawa Police for the purpose of this demonstration. They were doing other things. So there was some creative accounting when it came to the number of police that were available for this occupation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And when you're saying the RCMP were attending to other things, is it -- I understand some of them were attending to federal institutions - --
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- federal properties?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Maybe it's helpful -- so at this February 5th meeting, the Board approved the appointment of 257 RCMP officers, which I guess would have been sworn in as special constables. So did that mean that 257 were on the ground? Like, what does that mean in practice if 257 are approved?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, in practice, they're not all on the ground at the same time, obviously, because you have shifts, either two shifts or three shifts a day. So, you know, that many are approved that are available, but in the case of those 257, I believe some of those were ones that weren't under our command. So we -- I mean, it sounded like we had 257, but we didn't. We had far less.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we go to page 3 and the third paragraph? Okay. Oh, sorry, third paragraph from the bottom. So second sentence, "The Service later, however, highlighted the need for additional legal supports in both the short and medium term, requesting assistance to find uncharted legal territory. The Service referenced the Criminal Code as being archaic and both the Provincial Highway Traffic Act and City of Ottawa Bylaws as being limiting in that they all failed to consider events such as the trucker convoy." Do you recall who said this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe it was Chief Sloly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you understand this to be -- to mean?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, just ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I guess, did you ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- that we didn't have the tools that we needed in terms of this specific convoy with large 18-wheel vehicles to be able to effectively address legal issues around that, because this had not perhaps ever been considered in terms of criminal code or even our own Ottawa bylaws in the past.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you understand it to be saying that they needed new enforcement authority to effectively end this -- these events?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t know that I would say I understood it just to mean enforcement authority. I think I understood it to mean that the actual policies that were in place under those Acts were insufficient to deal with this particular event.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Was there any specific type of authority that you understood they were asking for?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I honestly can’t recall what those would have been now.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Let’s go to page 5, paragraph 5: “A question was raised regarding whether the Service’s assumption that the demonstration was only going to last for the initial weekend was due to a lack of intelligence. The Service noted having had a large amount of intelligence from the time the convoy began its travels cross- country. The intelligence indicated that there would be small groups staying into the week, but ultimately it had seemed as though the crowd would be departing.” Do you know who provided this information to the Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Most of the information the Board was receiving was provided by Chief Sloly. Some of it was provided by Deputy Chief Bell, and others was provided by Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, but most of the information conveyed to the Board -- I mean, really, the Police Service and the command, senior command, was the Board’s really only point of information.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we could go to OPB00001647? So these are the in-camera minutes for this same meeting. Page 2, paragraph 4. Sorry, yeah: “The Chief reassured the Board that there was a comprehensive plan, however he could not provide all the details of what the Service was doing operationally.” Why was this raised during the in-camera portion of this meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think that the Board was increasingly becoming concerned that there wasn’t enough of a plan. And I can’t specifically remember that conversation, or who had raised it in-camera, but I think the point was that there was some pressure being brought to bear on the Chief for more detail around that plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you understand him to be saying that the Board was not entitled to that information?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You know, there’s always this little push and pull between an oversight body and the service itself, and the senior command. And you know, if you talk to chiefs across the country, it wasn’t just ours, they will tell you that we’re only entitled to this much and we can’t interfere. And there is some tension between boards and the service in this regard. And I think it’s fair to say that as this occupation of our city continued, the Board started pushing harder and harder for more details around that plan and were perhaps a little embolden in recognizing that we needed that information.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall the Chief ever telling the Board, or telling you, that he needed to receive the resources before he could finalize a plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t remember those words, but, you know, I definitely had the impression that we didn’t have the resources to bring about an end to this occupation. He’d made that very clear. So yes, you need to understand your resource availability in having an operational plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
OTT at 00017349. So this is a February 5th email that a resident forwarded to -- an email between a resident and Councillor McKenney that was forwarded to the Board as well. And if we just go down just a little bit? Thank you. We see here a response from your colleague, Councillor Meehan. And she was also a Board Member; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you see she says: “So very sorry Catherine” who she had forwarded this resident’s email, “Wish we had the power to do something, besides watch.” Did you or other members of the Board share in this sentiment?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well I think in fairness, there was a lot of frustration and we all wished that there was more we could do. You know, this is Councillor Meehan’s statement, that she felt that we were watching from the sidelines. I mean, I don’t think I necessarily fully share that sentiment that’s expressed here, but certainly the role of the Police Services Board in terms of oversight is limited.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So what did you feel that you could do as a Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, I think I’ve described that to you earlier, that we felt we could push for more details of a plan, we felt we could high-level set an expectation, we thought we could assist in the acquisition of resources from other police services and use our political channels to perhaps put pressure on other levels of government to shake loose those resources that we needed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let’s go to OTT10010. So these are notes from Jessica Bradley, who I understand is your assistant, of a meeting between you, the Chief, and the Mayor on February 6th. Do you remember that meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you’ve seen these notes before?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And they reflect, generally, you know, the content of that meeting?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So at the top, it says: “Large operation going on at Coventry. Planning has gone on overnight. Operation commenced around 4pm Elevated level or resistance, brought in more resources. Not going well.” So I take it an operation was ongoing at Coventry to clear out Coventry at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And why was it not going well?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I mean a good question for the Chief, but the -- I think it boiled down, again, to lack of resources. I mean, they secured one area, but the plan was to secure the entire area, and they didn’t manage to do that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was the Board advised as to -- you or the Board as to why it failed?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Chief Sloly and I spoke about some of those issues around the failure. Again, I think our focus was on the resources that were needed and what was happening there. And you know, a lot of information about, you know, did they have more information, did the freedom convoy people have more information about that operation than we anticipated? Did we have enough resources? But it didn’t go well. I mean, that was the bottom line. And again, it came down to having a plan that we could operationalize and having the boots on the ground to make it happen.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we go down just a little bit, you see the heading: “Pass or enhance existing bylaws” and then there’s a number of sub-bullets, and then it says: “Sloly to provide top 3 Bylaws we should focus on.” Can you maybe just explain what this discussion was about?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. There were a lot of concerns. By this time I think there was, you know, a growing lack of faith in the City, in the Police Service and just about everyone to get this job done. There were frustrations being spoken about, about how By- law Services was or was not assisting and, you know, I had heard issues around By-law Services giving our own citizens in those areas tickets but failing to ticket the Freedom Convoy members. There was just a lot of frustration. So, you know, we’re trying to practically assess are there by-laws that we could focus on right now, in real time, that would be of assistance to help with the situation we’re in.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that included the possibility of passing new by-laws?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think we could have passed new by-laws if they would be helpful, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so this final bullet: “Sloly to provide top three by-laws we should focus on...” That was kind of the action item from this discussion?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what was he supposed to do?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, just tell us what we’re not doing as a municipality. I mean this is where wearing my hat as a member of Council and the Mayor wearing his hat as the head of Council, to say, well, if they’re shortcomings in our by-laws that are an impediment to progress here, then tell us what by-laws you need fixed and what that would like that and we’ll take it from there.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was that list of three by-laws provided?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t think so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what was the idea here -- I guess the question that comes to mind is, if there was difficulty enforcing existing by-laws, what was the reasoning here in identifying additional enforcement power under by-laws?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, the difficulty in enforcing by-laws was specific to some of the by-laws we were asking them to enforce, and if there were other by-laws that would be useful. I mean I think just the exercise of passing a by-law in the middle of this and bringing attention to it might have been helpful, and there might have been by-laws that Chief Sloly could have assisted -- could have identified that were enforced.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Then it says at the very bottom of the page there: “The Chief needs 1800 officers”. Is that the first time he kind of specified the number?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was on the 6th; I think this meeting is on the 6th -- it was on the 6th, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let’s go to OTT0005590. So the next day, my understanding is that you and the Mayor received a table from Chief Sloly setting out the resources he required and substantiating essentially that 1800 number; do you remember this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So let’s go just down to see the table; there we go; thank you. And so this was a response to that discussion the day prior?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct. Well, it was a response to the discussion the day prior and to the meeting of the Board on the 5th.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were you satisfied with the level of detail provided in this table?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Generally-speaking, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did Sloly ever brief the Board on how these 1800 officers would fit in to his operational plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You weren’t provided with that kind of level of detail?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do not believe we were.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I expect that we’ll hear testimony suggesting that in preparing this table and this request for 1800, Chief Sloly instructed his officers to ask for double of what they required; had you ever heard anything about this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so later that day this -- I don’t think I’ve mentioned it; I think this email is dated the 7th; if we could just -- thank you. So later this day you and the Mayor issued those letters to the Feds and the Province requesting the 1800; was this table ever provided to the Province or the Federal Government; do you know?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do not know.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know if they ever received a detailed breakdown to go along with your request?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean that would be a question I think best put to Chief Sloly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
We heard from Mr. Arpin the other day that the Mayor was initially reluctant to send out that letter but that the OPS had essentially told him that their requests were not being heard and so it needed to be escalated to the political level; does that align with your recollection?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Can you just repeat that question?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. Arpin testified that the Mayor was reluctant to sign the letters to the Province and to the Federal Government initially but that the OPS had communicated to him that their own request for resources, the ones we talked about earlier, were not being received; were not being heard. And so -- that it required escalation and at the political level?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, certainly I was aware that the Chief was frustrated in being stonewalled in getting the resources he believed he needed. I was not aware that the Mayor was reluctant to sign the letter.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And so you sent, and “you”, I mean you and the Mayor, sent these letters to both the Province and the Federal Government at essentially the same time. I expect that we’ll hear that the Federal Government had some concerns that this request didn’t follow the proper process set out in the Police Services Act where it should have essentially -- the notion being that it should have gone first to the Province, and then if necessary, to the Federal Government. Were you made aware of those concerns at any point?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone ever advise you from the Federal Government or the Province that a different process should have been followed?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You weren’t advised that this would somehow delay the process or delay the response to the request?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not to the best of my recollection.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to pull up ONT5000851. So do you recognize this letter?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
This is the response from Minister Jones on February 10th.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M’hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we could just go to the top of page two. So it says: “Regarding the City of Ottawa and Ottawa Police Services Board’s request for significant additional operational resources, please note that I have shared your correspondence with Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Thomas Carrique. Commissioner Thomas Carrique and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner Brenda Lucki will continue to liaise with Chief Peter Sloly ... to determine how policing partners can provide support based on available policing resources and the operational plan proposed by the Ottawa Police Service.” Do you remember reading this?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what were your thoughts on reading this letter?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean I took it as generally positive that the lines of communication at the police level were open; they were going to continue to discuss it. I guess, you know -- we’re politicians; we sent the letter between politicians to try and put a little pressure because Chief Sloly was expressing concern that he wasn’t getting the resources at the policing level that he needed. And so, you know, my feeling was we needed to exert some political pressure on the process.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Let’s pull up OPB858. So this is an email chain with respect to your approval -- and sorry, this is on February 10th -- your approval of 400 RCMP appointments. If we can just go down, so if -- yeah, it’s that one, if we can just go down? So if you -- yeah, so that one in the middle, sorry. So you see this email from Krista Ferraro to yourself and asking you to please provide approval for the ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- 400 officers. And if we just go up to the top of the chain, there's the response from Julia Keast. She's from your office; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And she says, "The Chair approves this request. She's asked me to convey her concern[...] that MOUs for new resources articulate that RCMP officers are fully embedded in the OPS and [...] fully deployable." That was in reference to your concerns that you've previously indicated that they would be assigned to federal resources or otherwise not deployable; is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is correct. They were not helpful to us in this situation unless they were embedded in the OPS and deployable.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Can you briefly explain to us -- I think it would be helpful if we could understand the process for swearing in these officers. So, you know, you -- the -- and I understand this only happens with RCMP officers; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, we -- yeah, you may be correct. I wasn't at any of the swearing in personally.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
But the swearing in was done by the CEO of Ottawa Police. It was done twice daily, I believe, at nine in the morning and nine in the evening. And it was flexible, so if there was a need to do it any other time, Blair was flexible to do that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So could we just walk through, let's say the RCMP says we're going to give you 250 officers. What's the first thing that needs to happen?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I guess ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you need -- is it that you need to approve it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I -- so I would do the approval, and then the CEO would do the swearing in. There was -- I asked Blair Dunker about this, was there any delay on our end in swearing in officers and her answer was no.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And then what happens after the swearing in?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Presumably, there's some -- I mean, that's an operational issue, so probably best to put to the Chief, but I presume there's some sort of training that goes with, you know, being deployed under the OPS and, you know, our specific issues and then they would be deployed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So is it fair to say your line of sight is just on the approval ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- and the swearing in?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And at -- I think the only other element is the signing of the MOUs. At what point does -- did that occur in kind of that sequence?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was occurring throughout. When they'd send me a pile of MOUs, I would sign them.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know if that came before the swearing in?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It would come before the swearing in.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right. And my understanding is it's necessary to swear in the RCMP officers as special constables, so that they can have the authority to enforce provincial by-laws and ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- laws; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So I think you've already said that -- we've heard from Mr. Arpin and his communications with Mr. Jones from Minister Mendocino's office. That was -- there was a difficulty reconciling the numbers being provided by the RCMP and the numbers being provided by the OPP. You were aware of that, I take it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was aware through Chief Sloly that the numbers that he was actually seeing on the ground and the numbers that were being communicated were different.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I think we missed our -- we missed one step in our previous discussion. I believe the Solicitor General's office also needs to sign off on the approval of these officers; are you aware of that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I'm not aware of that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
No? Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So you wouldn't be aware if there was any delays at that level?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We heard the other day that Mr. Jones reported to Mr. Arpin that RCMP officers were assigned to Ottawa but on standby because they hadn't been given an assignment by the OPS. Are you -- do you have any information, you know, are you able to confirm or deny that -- those kind of statements?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That information was not shared with me or with the Board. And I was actually a little bit surprised to hear that City officials were given information in that regard that was not shared with the police oversight body.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So you were never told that RCMP officers were assigned to OPS but on standby?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So from your vantage point, where was the holdup in the deployment of these resources?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I didn't have a vantage point on where the holdup was. It's just the way it was communicated to me was more that there was confusion or, you know, some sort of creative accounting in the actual numbers, but what was being spoken about and the reality were different, but that was as far as it went.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Jones also reported to Mr. Arpin on February 12th that there was delays in deploying officers because Chief Sloly hadn't signed off on a plan. Had you heard anything about that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. By this point on February 12th, had you seen a plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
They were -- we had not seen the full plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let's go to OPB00001272. This is the -- these are the minutes from the February 11th public meeting. And if we could just scroll down? Okay. So right in the first paragraph. Can we just expand that so it fills the screen? "Chief Sloly provided opening remarks, indicating that there remained sensitivity surrounding the OPS' operational plans. He noted that demonstrators were now subject to higher penalties and fines. The Service was aware that more people were planning to return to Ottawa over the weekend, and they were deploying all available resources. The Chief indicated that although progress was being made, the key remained resourcing." Do you know again here why this was raised at the very beginning of the meeting in terms of sensitivity around OPS' operational plans?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think this was the real point of tension in the whole thing that we needed to have a solid plan, they needed to be properly resourced, and there was this continuing tension that we weren't getting the resources that we needed. And by then, there -- you know, the incidents had happened in I think Coutts, Alberta and the Ambassador Bridge and other places, and there appeared that the resources load easier to other locations then they'd flown to Ottawa. So it was a point of contention.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Were you beginning to suspect at this time that there was some association between the delay and the plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
No.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
And I know because I was listening to the testimony in the last 48 hours that City officials were made aware of that, but they did not communicate that to myself as Chair of the Board or to the Board.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So let's go to OPB00001648. These are the in-camera minutes for the same meeting on February 11th. At the outset, it mentions that threats were received by you and your staff. Can you maybe shed some light on what that was about?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Just I think they were similar threats, threats that other officials were receiving. They were extremely aggressive, mostly by telephone call. I had forwarded the most egregious ones to the Ottawa Police Service who followed up. They offered me -- they offered security. I turned it down. I didn’t think I needed to take those resources. And I believe that some of the most egregious one, which were, you know, threats of murder and -- it was -- they were ugly. I mean I -- some of them weren’t even coming from inside the country so -- but one of my assistants, a young woman that works for me and was the person on the frontline because she answered the phone, was very, very upset by some of the messages that we received and I ended up giving here some time off work because she was so triggered by it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall, these threats, was there any information provided in them that would associate them with, you know, your response to the convoy or something like that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. Yeah, there -- there were a number of them. Like, there were a number of them and, yeah, they were definitely linked to the occupation of the City and comments that I had made publicly that they took exception to.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Let’s go to page -- I guess the bottom of this page. Okay, so a question was raised regarding resource supports received from the OPP and RCMP. They had 60 OPP officers and 40 RCMP at that time and had since Monday. That was the total additional officers received - - or provided. Was this aligning with the number of officers that had been committed by the province and the federal government?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It’s a tough question because what they were talking about publicly was, you know, that they would send more than this, but the commitments that were being made at the police-to-police level, I couldn’t answer that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And is -- do I understand this correctly that there had effectively been no change in the number of resources between February 7th when you made your request and Friday February 11th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe that is the case.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And again, these number reported were reported to you via Chief Sloly; you weren’t seeing these numbers directly?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right. As I said, almost all the information the Board was receiving was through that sole channel.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember during this meeting a conversation about a possible request to invoke the -- to ask for the use of the National Defence Act?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I know there was starting to be conversations about what tools would be available to assist. I can’t recall any details. I know I was actually receiving calls from lawyers who were also my constituents suggesting that we needed to ask for enactment of special, you know, help, whatever that would look like, because this was not being resolved and the anxiety was just growing and the public concern was growing. And it wasn’t about people’s freedom to protest; it was about the occupation of our city and the disruption of people’s daily lives.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Let’s go to the top of page 4. It was noted that at the time of the convoy’s arrival, there was no intelligence that suggested the demonstration would turn into the occupation that it had become. Do you remember that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And who made that statement; do you recall?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t know who made that statement.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let’s go to OTT00010555.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good moment to take the morning break or ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Sure.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So before you turn to that, we’re going to take a 15-minute break and so we’ll be back at a quarter to 12.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes. Order. À l’ordre.
Upon recessing at 11:30 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:47 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission has reconvened. La Commission as reprendre.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
MS. DIANE DEANS, Resumed
EXAMINATION BY JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ, (cont’d)
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so I’m just going back to the minutes of the February 11th meeting that we were looking at, and if we could just expand that. So I just want to ask again about the -- this last paragraph: "The Board expressed concern that it did not seem as though the service was being provided with the resources required. A question was raised regarding whether the service would be in favour of a number of councillors asking the Mayor to request the Attorney General’s support through the National Defence Act." Do you remember, you know, here’s it’s “…whether the service would be in favour…”. Do you remember what that -- how that discussion went? Were they in favour of that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t remember. I don’t think I can comment on it because I don’t think I have a clear enough recollection.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Fair to say the request was never made?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right, so let’s go to OTT1055. This is a text you had with Blair Dunker who’s the CAO of OPS, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And this is on February 12th. And let’s just go to the first -- sorry, back to the top, the first text exchange there -- down, down, down, okay. So you say: "How many RCMP officers have been sworn in since the start of the demonstration? Are any pending?" And if we scroll down, Blair responds: "421 RCMP officers are on the list provided to OPS. Of those, 306 are sworn in. There is no delay in swearing in. RCMP asked for two swearing in times, when shifts change, 9:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. From the time we get the name from the RCMP to getting it approved by the Ministry and sworn in, it’s within in a day or less. We are very flexible. It’s important to note that this does mean the officers sworn in are deployed and it doesn’t mean the ones on the list that are not sworn in have arrived." So do you know who was deciding whether or not to deploy an RCMP officer that had been sworn in. Was it OPS or the RCMP; do you know?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe it would be OPS. When they come under our command, it would be OPS that would make those deployment decisions.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And when she says, "It doesn’t mean the ones on the list that are not yet sworn in have arrived." So am I -- is my understanding correct that they would first have to arrive in Ottawa and then they would be sworn in by Ms. Dunker?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you asked Ms. Dunker to provide you with a table of daily deployments, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So let's look at OPB00001014. This is a copy -- you can confirm for me, but I believe this is a copy of the table you were provided by Ms. Dunker?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can try to fit the table on -- there we go. Thank you. And so you've seen this table?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I believe it was provided to you the next day, on the 13th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Can you describe what it shows?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You'll have to give me a minute. I mean, large scale, it shows the number of deployments, I believe by shift, and it shows the officers from each municipality, Durham, London, Peel, York that were here; the numbers from OPP that were here; RCMP; and then other municipal services.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know whether -- and maybe we just scroll up a bit so we can see the title of the chart -- do you know, is this showing officers that were deployable or officers that had actually been deployed?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe these are officers that have been deployed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what was your impression the first time you looked at this table?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't know if I was terribly impressed one way or the other with it. I mean, it was just -- it's a chart, it's information, it's showing that we have a pretty specific understanding of who's here on shifts and where they're from.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Would you -- so if we can -- I look on the big screen. It's okay. So would you agree that there seems to be some increase, a rather significant increase in the RCMP and OPP numbers on the very last day, on the 12th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know why that was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
This is getting closer to the end and the logjam seemed to be breaking. And at the time, my understanding is because the command centre had integrated RCMP and OPP into the command. And once they were integrated in the command centre and started having more of a senior role in terms of decision making, they were freeing up more resources.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know if this trend continued over the rest of your term, at 13, 14, 15, 16?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It's a short term. Yes, I believe it did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know how many resources were available to OPS when you were removed on the 16th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t have that number off the top of my head, but I do know that when the ultimate climax occurred that the number of resources deployed were very similar to the number that Chief Sloly had weeks before told us that he needed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let's go to OPS00011610, and go down. Okay. So it's the second email there, an email from Jessica Bradley from your office to John Steinbachs. Who is John?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
John? He's the Communications Director for Ottawa Police.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so you say: "I recognize that this was not part of the initial request for the in-camera briefing, but the Chair and the Board have been asking Chief Sloly to provide an overview of the Plan to end this occupation. Specifically, the Chair would like to know the methodology behind the request for 1,800 additional resources and how the will be deployed. We recognize that some information with respect to the plan will be confidential and cannot be shared; however, as [an] oversight body, the Board should be apprised of the general priorities and objectives of the Plan. The Chair would like to be able to put out a statement similar to the one Toronto put out last weekend." And then if we go down, you say, "I have highlighted the relevant sections." Sorry, let's go back up. Okay. So the third paragraph under the bold heading there: "Board Members were briefed on the details of the operational plan, including the priorities and objectives [of] the operation, and had opportunities to ask questions of the chief and obtain further information." So you remember making this request on ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- February 14?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was your -- and so why did you make this request?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was a little frustrated that Toronto City Council seemed to get more -- or Toronto Police Board seemed to get more information from their senior command than we got from ours, and we had been asking and asking. And so I just got to the point where I want the whole thing laid out.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So when you read this, what led you to conclude that they were getting more than you had?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, the line that you just read to us, the Board members were briefed on the details of the operational plan including the priorities and objectives for the operation and had opportunities to ask the chief to -- and obtain further information. I mean, I never felt that we were briefed on all of the details of the operational plan. I mean, given there was one day -- well, sort of melding together in my mind -- but there was one day when there was an intention to go in with an operation to take out the installation at the corner of Rideau and Sussex, and the chief had not given me the details of the plan, but he told me that there was a significant operation to occur that evening, and it didn’t happen. And so I just -- at that point, I just felt like we weren’t getting the whole story. We weren’t getting enough information. I just felt the Board, as the oversight body, needed to understand more about the operation, so I was pushing harder. I was -- from the beginning to where we are now, two and a half weeks in, or whatever it is -- and maybe my patience is running a little thin -- but I wanted more information about what was happening, what we needed to do, and how this was going to end.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So the Toronto Police Services Board has actually provided us with an institutional report, and that’s TPB.IR.00000001. I won't take you to specific passages, but they relay that in applying the lessons from Morden, they had integrated a Board representative into -- there was one sitting at the executive management table for the event, one was invited to attend the services executive command centre, and that this allowed ongoing Board access to operational briefings and updates in real time. Was this -- was anything similar offered to the Ottawa Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know why that was felt not to be possible?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No. I didn’t know it was possible. I mean, I hadn’t been around that long. You know, I was in my first term as Chair of the Board and so I mean, this was a bit of a learning curve for me too.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So you were requesting a greater -- more insight into what the plan was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what the operational plan was, and you were not receiving it; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We were getting little snippets.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Little snippets.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
But we weren’t getting a whole plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did the Board -- how did the Board push back? You know, presumably when it was not getting what it was asking, how does the Board push back?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I think you can sort of see it in the flow of information and in just the information you put up here this morning that it was getting like, okay, now I wanted -- I want the number, I want the resource requirement, I want the plan, I want it -- I want to see the details. And it was like that. It was -- I think it was growing as we went along, and we were realizing we weren’t getting information. And I have to say, through this Commission I’ve realized there was a lot more information the Board was not privy to that the City was. It was very frustrating.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever -- did the Board ever formally direct Chief Sloly to produce additional information? My understanding is under the Police Services Act there is authority to direct the Chief. Was any kind of formal direction ever issued in that respect?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I would have to look back at the motions that we did. I know we certainly were asking for it. Were we directing it through motion? I’m not sure.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Was it -- did you understand that that would be an option?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, we were working together. I mean, this was a -- this was a tough situation. It wasn’t -- you know, it wasn’t that we wanted to create any more angst for the Chief than he was already under. We’re just trying to assist him in bringing about an end to this, and be as useful as possible and ensure that, as the oversight body, we were doing our job. So it wasn’t -- it wasn’t -- it wasn’t a relationship that I would describe as, “We’re going to tell you what to do because you’re not doing it.” And it was more conversational. It was like, “We’re all working together here, and we need to get this done.”
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
In your witness statement you said that when you requested to see the plan you would receive “wiggle words”; can you explain what you mean by that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I think just what I’ve been describing here this morning, that we’d see parts of a plan; we’d hear little bits about, you know, there’s going to be some form of an operation. But, you know, I recall at one point Chief Sloly telling me that he couldn’t share the details because, you know, obviously the element of surprise is important in these operations and if you start sharing the details, the City has a way of that not becoming a secret for very long. So I mean, on one level I kind of accepted that because I know that to be true. But on the other hand, I just felt that we needed more.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Can we go to OPB00001646? So these are text messages between yourself and Amanda Galbraith ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M’hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- I’m not sure how to pronounce that -- February 12th. If we can just go down to February 12th at 10:59 a.m. So who is Ms. Galbraith?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
She’s a principal at Navigator, which is a crisis communications firm that the Ottawa Police Service uses to assist in communications in lieu of having a communications -- a full-blown communications department at OPS.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so she was advising you on communications matters.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
She was advising the Service, but I was also speaking to her.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so here, February 12th at 10:59 -- these are texts, again, between yourself and Ms. Galbraith -- you say: “I wish I thought there was a plan!” “Yeah. I hear you. Ignorance on operational matters (while appropriate) only provides so much comfort.” And you respond: “Not much at all. Joanne Chianello from CBC sent me a message last night and asked if I think there is a plan. I didn’t respond.” I think we’ve already talked about you not being satisfied with the disclosure of the plan to this point. Had you concluded by this date that there was a possibility that there wasn’t yet a plan on how to bring an end to the occupation?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was worried that there -- I mean, I knew they were working on a plan. I knew there were pieces of a plan. I knew there had been some operations. But I was just increasingly becoming concerned that there wasn’t a soup-to-nuts plan to bring this thing to a peaceful, expeditious end.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So from what I heard from you earlier, it sounds like the reason that the Board didn’t direct the Chief more formally to provide that information was because you wanted to maintain a cooperative relationship; would that be accurate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
The Chief was under intense stress. Throughout this I was -- I was just doing wellness checks with him. I was just calling to say, “Are you okay?” I mean, he had the weight of the city on his shoulders. He was getting it from every corner; from the public, from Council, from the Board, from internal sources inside police that were -- I mean, I think some of them using it to get to Chief Sloly. I mean, there was a lot going on and I was concerned for Chief Sloly. He was our coach, if you will, and we had a crisis and we needed to see this through, and I -- it was not my goal to add to his anxiety level. It was my goal to support him and to support the Service and to assist them to get the resources they need to get this job done.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know during the relevant period, did the Board issue any formal directions to Chief Sloly?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I would have to check through the minutes. I just can’t recall offhand what the motions that we did were.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did the Board adopt any policies during that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Pertaining to the Freedom Convoy?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not that I specifically recall.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So I just want to get your understanding here of kind of the tools available to you and the exercise of that oversight function. If you were to have directed the Chief to provide additional information and that was not done, were there any tools available to you to enforce that request, to your -- to the best of your knowledge?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, we are the employer for the Ottawa Police Service, and we are Chief Sloly’s employer, so to the extent that we have an employee/employer relationship, there are tools available. Some of them are hammers. I mean, one is suspension; I mean, I don’t think -- that’s a big hammer in the middle of a crisis. So, you know, the tools that are available, in my mind, it wasn’t about that. I wasn’t focused on that so much as I was focused on working together. My view, we needed to be in the same boat; we needed to be rowing in the same direction. We didn’t need to be infighting or fighting amongst ourselves or, you know, calling each other out; we needed to be working collaboratively every step of the way at all levels to bring this thing to a peaceful end. And I still believe that to this day. I mean, one of the issues I think at play here is that it was new. We didn’t -- it wasn’t like the G20; we didn’t have a lot of preparation time to really get our ducks in a row. But we didn’t work as smoothly together; it wasn’t a well-oiled machine, and there were a lot of people, in my estimation, working at cross-purposes here. And everybody, you know, with the best of intentions, let’s assume, but not necessarily working at their very best. And when people aren’t working together, I don’t think you get the best result, and I think that’s what we saw.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware that OPS had arranged for an in camera briefing by the OPP on February 15th that would include a briefing on some of the intelligence that had been provided to it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe that was aware of that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Had you requested that kind of a briefing? How did that come about?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, it’s so hard to remember the details of, you know, who asked for what when, but I can't tell you how it came about, but I believe I was aware of it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why that kind of briefing was not provided earlier?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
With the OPP?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
M’hm.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't have a clear recollection of when they were fully embedded and taking more of a -- they took more of a leadership role coming near the end, which I think was very helpful. But I think it was at that point when they started providing this kind of information.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did -- and I understand that that briefing was cancelled, was put off because of Chief Sloly’s resignation that same day.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, that’s right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have any briefings with OPP or RCMP?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, it was scheduled, I think, for the next day or day after, but then I was gone so I never saw it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
A lot changed in those few days.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Let's go to ONT00001116. So this is a PowerPoint that the OPSB prepared for the February 15th meeting, that's my understanding. Have you ever seen this document?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I saw it in the documents that were provided in the run up to this hearing, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Previously, had you seen it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Is it possible that it was also part of that, kind of, cancelled briefing on the 15th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We can take that down, thank you. Could you please tell us how Chief Sloly’s resignation on the 15th came about?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. So as I was describing to you a little while ago, you know, there was increasing anxiety in this community at all levels, and a lot of the concern was aimed at Chief Sloly. And you know, I told you I was doing wellness checks with him. I was, you know, checking to make sure he was okay, because he's a human being and he was under intense stress, and I felt that that was important to do. And I'd had a conversation with him the week previous and I had made some comment along the lines of, Chief Sloly, you know there's a lot of people in this city that want your head. And he sort of surprised me with the reply that he made. His reply was, well, cut me a check and I'll be out of here. And I didn't expect that, and that didn't know if it was kind of just in passing, if it was flip, it was just you know, frustration in the heat of the moment. I didn't know, I didn't really understand the context necessarily of that comment. But in the days after that, in the next week, there was a lot going on and one of the things that was going on, and you heard it inside of the testimony from the witnesses that came before me, is that members of council were considering a motion to ask Chief Sloly for his resignation in a public forum. I was very opposed to that, that one, it's not City Council’s job, and I know they were under intense pressure too, and they wanted to look like they were doing something, but they were not members of the Police Services Board. Chief Sloly was not their employee, and it was not their job. It was also in my mind, constructive dismissal to ask a public official like that, in heat of the crisis, for his resignation is tantamount in my mind to constructive dismissal. And you know, if I can take a moment to explain the sort of culture that exists at City Hall, the mayor has a group of counselors that are very supportive of his agenda, and generally speaking, will deliver to him any vote on any issue at anytime. And so -- and that's a reality. And I know that no motion of that magnitude would ever see its way onto the floor of council without the mayor’s consent. And so, when I got wind that this was being contemplated, I started asking the mayor's staff if this motion was coming, because I was very concerned about it. I didn't share it with Chief Sloly, I thought he had enough stress, frankly, and if it was never going to see the light of day on the council floor, I wasn't going to tell him about it because he didn't need that stress. But if it was going to see the light of day on the council floor, then I felt that I needed to let him know. So there was that happening, and then there was what I would describe as some sort of insurrection from within that was happening, and there was always some tension in the ranks with Chief Sloly, right from the beginning. The honeymoon for Chief Sloly in this town was short lived and there was always -- I never -- I don't think he ever felt -- maybe I shouldn't speak for him, he can speak for himself, but I don't think he ever really felt entirely supported by his senior command, or by the rank and file inside police. And so, in the midst of a big crisis like this it all comes to a head, that's what happens, crisis sort of beget crisis. And he -- I don't think he had enough support from within, and then I was contacted by, I believe his name was Steven Hoff, a producer at CBC, and he told me that there was a story coming out about Chief Sloly and his behavior inside police, and he offered to share with me the highlights of that story, and they were extremely damning. And they were also disturbing in that, I mean, we at Ottawa police, and the Board is the employer of Ottawa police, and you know, we've spent a lot of time on the issues around workplace sexual harassment violence, and you know, I really take seriously the notion of having a positive working environment. And so, this kind of -- these kinds of serious accusations against our Chief, I mean if I describe them to you in broad strokes it's like, he's yelling at people, and is sort of a tyrannical dictator, I mean that was -- I might be overstating it slightly, but not too much. I mean it was that kind of accusations that clearly came from within the service. And Chief Sloly had been intimating to me that there was infighting occurring inside Ottawa Police. I didn't ask him for a lot of detail on that, nor did he share a lot of detail. He did tell me the Deputy Chief Patricia Ferguson had gotten caught up with some of the wrong elements and that, and he had had to send her home for a number of days, which was in the middle of a crisis so obviously extremely worrisome. He had told me that the Incident Commander had changed more than once during this crisis, and so there was obviously this other problem that we had inside Ottawa police, probably not well known to the public. But inside Ottawa police there's a bit of an insurrection going on and there seems to be -- there seems to be an intent to use this crisis to undermine the Chief further. That was my assessment of what I saw in that situation. And that story, they gave me a heads up, CBC gave me a heads up that they were going to be breaking that story within hours. I believe that was the evening of the 14th, so I called Chief Sloly about 9:30 at night. I asked him -- I talked to him a little bit about the CBC story. I asked him if he was aware of it, which he was. And I just said to him, I said, "Chief Sloly, last week when I spoke to you, you said if we cut you a cheque, that you would be out of here. And I just wanted to ask you if you meant that, or not, or if you wanted to stay." And Chief Sloly said to me that, you know, that he's the Chief of Police. He's put his heart and soul into this operation. He's worked very hard. We're getting close to bringing this thing to an end. He had every intention of seeing it through to the end, and that he wasn't going anywhere. And I said, "Okay, fine, Chief. I just wanted to check with you because, you know, it's going to be a little bit of a rough ride." And I just left him with saying, "If you sleep on it and change your mind, let me know." And the next morning, I think it was about 8:30 in the morning, he called me, and he said, "I want to leave."
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Did anyone reach out to you ahead of his resignation to suggest that you should put pressure on him to resign or anything like that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I mean, I heard all the talk about, you know, my Council colleagues wanting to push him out and interfere in all of that, but, no, not directly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did the -- I understand from your witness statement that the Board had some conversations about his leadership. Did it consider whether it had the authority to remove him?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, because in light of the CBC story, the Board felt that we needed to understand our options and expectations that would be upon us and what would be the right thing for the Board to do. And, yeah, so, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you concluded that you did not have that authority as the Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We concluded we did not have the authority to remove the Chief. We did conclude that we had the authority to suspend the Chief.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And is it fair to say that the concerns that the Board discussed about his leadership were related to what you previously have talked about in terms of in-fighting and those kind of issues?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, and -- yeah, the -- yes, it was related to the allegations that CBC were going to run with.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Did your personal interactions with Chief Sloly give rise to any concerns about his leadership?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
My personal interactions or my interactions as the Chair of the Board?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
As the Chair of the Board, yes, sorry.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There were some occasions, there -- there had been two issues raised about Chief Sloly's performance that the Board had referred to the OCPC for follow- up. Neither one of those, I believe, have been dealt with. One was an anonymous complaint, and one was a complaint from an inspector at Ottawa Police.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I guess what I meant by my question is in your own interactions with him in your role, did you have any -- you know, did anything arise from those communications that gave you concerns?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, I -- Chief Sloly is a very passionate person. Chief Sloly was under intense pressure. And I saw the emotion in him, and I know that he could get very excited. And when I spoke to him about, you know, some of the things that were outlined in that Ottawa -- in the CBC story, he didn't deny that, you know, he had raised his voice and perhaps acted in a manner that he would prefer he had not acted in. But -- and I think he also -- you know, his defence was that it was very stressful at all levels.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And coming back to the plan to end the protests in Ottawa, did the Board ever lose faith in his ability to accomplish that task?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
The Board never stated that they had lost faith in Chief Sloly. I do not believe the Board had lost faith in Chief Sloly as the Chair of the Board. I publicly stated my support for him. I did it willingly. I did support the Chief. I did not agree with my Council colleagues interfering. I understood that there were a lot of questions that were being raised and I believed that there would be time after this incident had ended for a post-mortem where we could - - you know, we could consider all of what had happened and, you know, hopefully, learn some lessons from it and make some determinations, if any changes had to be made. But in the midst of this crisis, in my opinion, it was not the time to be questioning the actions of our Chief.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Turning to the February 15th meeting, once, you know, the announcement was made that he had resigned, but then there was a briefing from OPS, would you agree that during that meeting it was clear to the Board that the OPS -- the wheels were in motion to now bring this to an end? Can you maybe describe that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was clear that things were improving. I could not tell you that I understood how imminent the end was.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what led to this change in tone?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You know, I've contemplated that so many times since this. I really feel that integrating the OPP and the RCMP into the command centre and giving them more of a role in developing a plan was important because I don't think OPS really had the skillset inside OPS to really build a plan like that. I just don't think they had the experience. So I think having those senior police agencies integrated into the centre had helped a lot in developing a plan. And you started seeing in the stuff you're showing me, you start seeing more of the development of a plan as they integrated. And as they integrated, they started sending more resources and it was always that we were never going to end this thing without a clear plan and without the resources that Chief Sloly had said early on that he needed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Turning to the 16th, and I don't have much time left, and so I'll only briefly touch on the events on the 16th, let's go to OTT8842. This is the draft letter that I discussed with Mr. Arpin the other day that he drafted on behalf of the mayor to explain their perspective on what occurred on February 16, and specifically, your decision to sign a contract with Mr. Torigian ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Torigian.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- to replace former Chief Sloly. So if we can go to the top of page 2 is the section that I'm most interested in. Just a little higher. Sorry. Just the -- if you have the overlap between the two pages. Okay. So it says here, "No votes were taken and no authority was delegated that would allow the Chair to finalize an arrangement – Board members believed that they had mandated the Chair to undertake a search for an external Chief of Police. Board members insist on the fact that the Board Chair did not seek delegated authority to execute a contract for a new Chief of Police." And Mr. Arpin told me the other day that this information was provided to him by some of your fellow Board members. I'm just interested in your response to this information.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, it is absolutely a hundred percent false. Mr. Arpin did not ask me about this. There are in-camera board minutes available that reviewed this. It was -- the authority was delegated, unanimously delegated. And Mr. Arpin discussing this issue with Board Members frankly was putting them in conflict of the Code of Conduct because this was in-camera information not to be shared. So it’s wrong. He should not have been asking them about this in-camera meeting. And, I mean, if a Member of the Board -- and I don’t -- I wish perhaps you had asked who, but if a Member of the Board did provide that information, I would suggest to you that it was probably a Board Member does not have a lot of governance experience and perhaps did not understand delegated authority. But it was the unanimous vote of the Board.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Arpin, in his testimony the other day, and the Mayor’s witness statement, say that you told the Mayor on the morning of February 16th that you wouldn’t sign the contract with the new Chief without his approval and that you then did it anyways later that day and that that’s when he lost faith in you. Did you tell the Mayor that morning that you would not sign the contract without his approval?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
What did you tell the Mayor?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I had a conversation with the Mayor. I told him that the Board had come to a decision to hire a new chief, Matt Torigian, and that I would be signing a contract that afternoon. The Mayor expressed his concern, I think from a place of not fully understanding all of the internal issues that the Board was aware of, but nonetheless, he's the Mayor of the City and I provided that information in advance of the announcement to him, and out of respect for the Office of the Mayor of the City. And I said to the Mayor, “If you are telling me not to sign that contract, then I will go back to the Board.” But the Board decision had been made. Let’s be clear. The Board -- that was done. And I said, “If you are telling me not to sign the contract, I will go back to the Board.” But the Mayor stopped short of giving me that direction. So we proceeded. In the intervening time, I mean, the Mayor was on the telephone to my colleagues, who in turn were letting me know that he was asking them to unseat me as the Chair of the Board. And by the way, you also heard some testimony in the last couple of days that when I was asking about the council looking to constructively dismiss Chief Sloly, they were also looking to unseat me as Chair of the Board, and I was aware of that, asked them about it, and they said they didn’t know. But nothing comes before Council without the Mayor’s knowledge and consent. So it was pretty clear to me that that was the event that was unfolding. As soon as I left that room, the phone calls started to set up the votes to unseat me. And a member of the media, I recognize it’s hearsay, but it’s a member of the media that I held in high regard that told me that it was the Mayor’s Office that leaked the information about the hiring of Matt Torigian, and the problem with the leaking of that information was that it created, in my estimation, a false narrative about the hiring of a new chief. I mean, they were suggesting to the public that we had abandoned our own process, we didn’t go through, you know, the normal process. And this was a short-term hiring designed to shore up the senior command. We were flying with one wing in our senior command. Senior command normally has two deputies, a chief, and a CEO. We had hired a brand-new CEO, we had one of our deputies was suspended from the service, our chief had just resigned, we were bare bones senior command in the middle of our biggest crisis ever. And so there were a number of considerations that the Board had made in coming to the conclusion that it was in the best interest of the police service and our citizens to go outside. One was to shore up the senior command to get the resources. Frankly, one was to protect Deputy Chief Bell, because in my estimation at the time, anybody that was going to assume that role, if it didn’t come to a positive conclusion quickly, was probably going to, you know, take some of the criticism for it. And I would have expected that he would, in all probability, be a prime candidate to be our next chief and I didn’t want to damage Steve Bell through this process. And frankly, we were looking for depth of experience in these types of issues than we had internal to OPS at the time. And it was basically those three reasons that said, okay, we need to shore up our senior command, we need to get more help from the right people, and we need to protect Deputy Chief Bell. And it was for that reason that we thought hiring someone on an interim basis from outside the service made sense. And with all due respect to the Mayor, I do believe that the Board and the Chair of the Board were in a better position to make that calculation than was he.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. My understanding is that your assistant made an audio recording of this conversation with the Mayor?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
She did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that recording was disclosed to Commission Counsel this morning?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Just hold on a moment.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I have a concern. We received a copy of that audio recording 10 minutes, or 13 minutes, I believe, before the hearing commenced. I was surprised that it had not been disclosed previously. The Ottawa Police Board disclosed a number of other documents. It was clearly something that they believed was relevant. It was not put to Mayor Watson yesterday. And I guess what I’m concerned about is the integrity of the process when we get these kinds of things 10 minutes before a witness is about to testify. I need to obtain instructions with respect to this. I have not been able to do so. And I guess what I worry about is what else is not being disclosed or what are we going to see after witnesses have already testified? It’s unfair to Mayor Watson and it’s unfair to the process, quite frankly, to have this kind of recording come up 10 minutes before the witness testifies.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you for the comments. Firstly, as I think was noted, you received it maybe two minutes after the Commission received it. So it’s not a question of the Commission, it’s a question of the documentation coming in. I think it’s been generally explained why it was not produced, but I think that could be explored further. I do share, obviously the Commission shares, the concern about fairness. Fairness is fundamental to this process. So if there are fairness issues, I will entertain them. Whether that’s required or not at this stage, I don’t know. Nor do you, I gather, because you don’t have instructions. So what I’d suggest is that we explore a little further why this wasn’t produced so that the record is clear, at a minimum, and then once you get instructions, we’ll see where we go from there.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yes, that’s fine. I think I’m the first person to cross-examine, so I’d like to get those instructions before. And I just want to make clear; I wasn't suggesting that the Commission hadn't disclosed it. I appreciate that they only just received it as well. My concern was ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think your concern was clear; I understand it; I was simply putting for the record that -- and the reality is, and I think it was clearly put in my original statement, is that, you know, we are pressed for time; so are all the parties, but first let’s start where the -- why this was late disclosure; I think that’s important it be on the record and maybe that can be explored briefly. And if it’s any comfort, you’re not the first on the list to cross-examine, so you’ll have the opportunity to get more time on that. But be assured, the Commission is concerned to the degree that we want to be fair and not knowing what’s in the recording, me either, I’m not in any position to say much more. Go ahead.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. I think the Commissioner framed the question. Can you tell us why the disclosure occurred this morning?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Sure. So when I provided documentation to the Commission, I might be a technological misfit; I don’t know a lot about getting all of this stuff off my telephone. And so effectively -- or off my devices. So I handed over my devices to the City to take whatever they wanted from any of this and then yesterday when I was listening to the Mayor’s testimony on this point -- because in my estimation it was quite inaccurate. I sent a message to my former assistant who is now on a leave of absence from my office, but I said did we -– did they get that document? And she said, no, because it was on my phone, not your phone. And so I had -- Mayor Watson is aware of the existence of this recording because I had shared it with the City’s Integrity Commissioner. So I sent a message to the City’s Integrity Commissioner yesterday and asked if that recording was still in her possession, and it was, and she sent it to me. So I disclosed it this morning to you.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I think that’s helpful, I assume, for your getting instructions in terms of the process and the fairness issue, and we can deal with it after lunch if there are further -- if there’s follow-up on that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, would it be appropriate for me just to state for the record, the document I need?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So it’s POE, and I don’t need anyone to bring this up -- POE-OPD00000001.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I have two short questions before I wrap up.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, you’re going to have to make it quick.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, I’ll be very quick. You were the Chair of the OPSB for one day after Chief Sloly’s resignation; did you notice any change in that short time?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I’m sorry ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There’s another objection.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No, my own concern is, now that we have assigned it a number, my understanding was that it would then be an Exhibit at the hearing and I would ask, if my understanding of the rule is correct, then I would ask that we defer making it an Exhibit at this time, at least so that we can get instructions and speak to that issue.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Mr. Commissioner, Commission counsel, that’s fine. Mr. Migicovsky is correct. Typically when we refer to a document ID, it is made an Exhibit; those are the rules we’ve set up, but in the circumstances where there may be objections and we haven’t -- you haven’t ruled on the sort of admissibility, I think my colleague was just reading it out for the benefit of counsel in the room and it won’t be marked an Exhibit until we’ve dealt with its admissibility after lunch.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, go ahead.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
In that one day did you notice any changes?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. We saw a lot more detail around the plan.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And did the Board ever consider making a request -- I understand under Section 9(5) of the Police Services Act there can be a request by the Board for the OPP to provide assistance. Did the Board ever consider making such a request?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t recall.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Those are all my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have a little bit more time. The first to cross-examine I think is counsel for the former Chief, Mr. Sloly.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. REBECCA JONES
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good afternoon, Councillor Deans and Commissioner; I’m Rebecca Jones and I am part of the counsel team for Chief Peter Sloly. I will not be able to complete my examination of you, Councillor Deans, before the lunch break, but why don’t we get started and then we can come back after the break. So I’m going to start with the hiring of Chief Sloly by the Board. Councillor Deans, after you were appointed to the Board in January 2019. Part of your important work was to hire the new chief?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Chief Sloly was recruited and asked to apply for the position?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He was.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And he had been a Deputy Chief in the Toronto Police Service for many years?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And he was known as a national police leader at the time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He was.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And one of the areas he was particularly known for was his progressive community-based approach to policing; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that is exactly what the Police Services Board was looking for; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
At the time that Chief Sloly was hired, the Ottawa Police Service was facing a lot of challenges?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And they were facing challenges, both in their relationship with the community, and in particular racialized members of the community?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the Police Services Board was also facing challenges internally within the Police Service?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And there had been audits done of these issues within the Police Service; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And there was very low morale?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And there was very low morale among racialized members of the Police Service in particular?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And when Chief Sloly came into the City, he was given a change mandate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He was, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And not everyone was happy about that, and you’ve talked about that; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And the Police Association wasn’t happy about that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You agree with me?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Chief Sloly was not their preferred candidate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I don’t think so but -- I had the impression that the Police Association would have liked to choose their own candidate; I don’t think they were pleased with who our second choice would have been either, from messages that were sent my way. Actually I don’t know initially how much information or knowledge they had of Chief Sloly, but I can tell you that the honeymoon was short-lived.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And part of the reason the honeymoon was short-lived was because Chief Sloly published an op-ed after a black motorist was stopped by the Ottawa Police Service; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t recall the details of that, but I’ll take you at your word.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. You won’t disagree with me that the Police Association, the head of the Police Association said it was a failure of leadership, or that he had failed the leadership test in raising this issue publicly?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So that was the circumstance faced by the Chief before the Convoy arrived; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you’ve talked about Chief Sloly and his Deputy Chiefs briefing the Board before the Convoy arrived on January 26th; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you made a statement at that Board meeting about the importance of the right to protest; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And it was important to do that because Ottawa is the Capital Region; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right, and I happen to believe in the right to protest. I’ve participated in some of those protests.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And the citizens of Ottawa are very respectful of the right to protest?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And so you talked about the priorities for this protest that you had and that the police service had; right? And the priorities were shared; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And those priorities were to provide a space for protests and to protect the right to protest?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But to ensure that this protest happened without any loss of life or serious injury.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that of course is what happened; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It is.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you also gave evidence about the information that you had available to you from Chief Sloly. And we've heard a lot about Chief Sloly this morning.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Haven't we?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We have.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Chief Sloly wasn't operating on his own, was he?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
What do you mean?
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
He had a command team; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He did.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And Acting Chief Ferguson was in charge of Operations; you knew that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And Deputy Chief -- Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, I should have said. And Deputy Chief Bell was in charge of Intelligence.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And this is a team effort, of course, but led by the Chief?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, you talked about the information that you were provided. And Commission Counsel showed you a snippet of a situational report. Do you remember that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that situational report referred to the fact that certain people were saying they weren't leaving until whatever demand was met; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And your expectation, though, for your Police Service, for Chief Sloly, for head of the Intelligence effort, Deputy Chief Bell, would be that they would take all of the intelligence into account; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you don't have access to all of the intelligence, you rely on them for that.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't have access to any of the intelligence.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, let me ask you about that because a lot has been made about that today. You understand, Councillor Deans, in your role as the Chair of the Board, that you are not provided with Intelligence reports.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. You haven't been provided with Intelligence reports in the past either; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the reason for that is because Intelligence reports are highly confidential.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And if we actually look at the Hendon reports, which we can do now or after lunch, we'll see that on each page of the Hendon reports, which came from the OPP, it specifically states that they are not to be shared. Okay; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Makes sense.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, it makes sense. So when we're talking about what Intelligence reports, and you didn't see the Intelligence reports, you said you relied on Chief Sloly for telling you that that was normal; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But you also knew, based on your own experience, that Intelligence reports are not given to the Board; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think what I was saying is we relied on Chief Sloly to provide us that information.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The information he could provide.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Legally?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Operationally?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So if we can put up a document now, please. It's OPP1024. I just referred to Project Hendon reports, and this is an example of one, Councillor Deans. And if you scroll down the bottom of the page you'll see the reference to the Third Party Rule, and that's a rule that when one Intelligence agency shares information with another, that agency isn't -- they're not to share it outside of the Police Service; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And if we can go to page 4, please. Here, we see -- actually if you scroll down a little bit more. Here we go. At the last paragraph. It says: "Although the stated intent of some convoy participants is to remain at Parliament Hill until the convoy [sic] rescinds all COVID-19 restrictions and mandates, this goal is likely to prove unrealistic in the long term." Right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
"...until the government rescinds all COVID restrictions", not the convoy.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. "...until the government rescinds all COVID restrictions." And then, but says, you know, "even a small number remaining would be disruptive"; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And this is actually the information that you obtained from the Ottawa Police Service. That the expectation was that people would leave, but there could be some people that hung on; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That was much more the information that we were getting.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right, so you agree with me.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't know how much I really understood the part about there would be some hangers-on, but I guess there's always some hangers-on.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right, because we've heard that Ottawa has 99 or 100 protests a year, and it's very common for there to be some people that hang on at the end of a protest; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, we would hope to enjoy what Ottawa has to offer and not to continue the protests.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right, but sometimes they're there to continue to protest; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I suppose.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And so this information that the goal to remain in any numbers was unrealistic, this is the kind of information that you would expect the OPS to put together with all the rest of the Intelligence information to share their assessment with the Board; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. We can take that down now. And Mr. Commissioner, I don't know the time, but if this is a convenient time for the lunchbreak.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. It's a little early, but if it's a good time for you, we'll take the lunchbreak, and come back at two o'clock.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 12:57 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:01 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
MS. DIANE DEANS, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. REBECCA JONES (Cont'd)
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I'm going to turn at now, Councillor Deans, to planning, and we heard a lot of evidence this morning about the plan. So you testified that there is always some tension between the police and the Police Services Board about the sharing of operational planning details; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And we spoke before the break about the sensitivity of Intelligence information, and I suggest to you that there are very similar sensitivities involved in sharing operational information.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The information of Police Operations is considered highly confidential for safety reasons.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Including the safety of officers.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And as Chief of Police, the safety of officers would be of the utmost importance; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Of course.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And like in the case of Intelligence reports, it was not the practice of the Board to demand operational planning information prior to the convoy; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think we demanded operational planning information, I think we, you know, enquired about operational issues in accordance with what we understood that limit to be under the Act.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Fair. So prior to the convoy, you wanted some high level operational information, but you weren't asking for tactical plans, for example?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You agree with me on that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. But here, with the convoy, everyone was under a tremendous amount of pressure.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
A lot.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you were under a tremendous amount of pressure.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
As was Chief Sloly?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you and the Board started wanting more information about the operational plans; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's fair, yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you'll agree with me that it was a highly volatile situation during the Freedom Convoy?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I will.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And there were threats, as you testified this morning, to members of the Board; right? There were threats to Chief Sloly, there were threats to the Mayor; right? Yes?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you also testified this morning about leaks of sensitive information from the Board; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. And that there had been leaks of information from the Board in the past; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It is fair.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And Commission Counsel also showed you an email from one Board member, Mr. Swaita, asking for more information about the planning; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M’hm.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And, I’m sorry; if you can just say, “Yes”.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, thank you.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Sorry.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I know it’s -- that’s fine. And Mr. Swaita, a few weeks later, stepped down from the Board, is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And he stepped down from the Board after evidence emerged that he had attended the Freedom Convoy protest on two occasions, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t know if that’s why he stepped down. My impression at the time was he stepped down the same day the other two provincial appointees stepped down. And I was left with the definite impression that they got pushed out.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Were you aware of the media reports at the time that he’d attended protests and wouldn’t answer questions about whether or not he had donated food to the protesters?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. An example of the lack of operational detail that you felt you were getting was in relation to the operation and Rideau and Sussex, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
An example of it? Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. And you told the Commissioner that you were told that there was going to be an operation in advance, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you were told some details of that operation?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not a lot but a very, very high level.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. You were given high level details of a police operation, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And that is the kind of details that the Board gets about police operations, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
In Ottawa that’s the kind of detail we were accustomed to getting.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. But you didn’t get, as you put it, the full plan for the operation, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No. Or even as much information as, after I had seen that Toronto report, I thought they were getting.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Well, I think this is before the Toronto report.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, okay.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
But no -- okay, carry on.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you’ve been following the evidence in this Commission so far?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So I take it that you’ve heard the evidence that the operation at Rideau and Sussex was seen to be a particularly sensitive operation.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
There was reports that there were people involved from criminal organizations in Quebec?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I heard that evidence.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right, okay. And so you would agree with me that with a Board with the history of leaks, maybe a little concerning to share the full plan of operational details of going into Rideau and Sussex; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I don’t think I would agree with you on that. I -- you know, as Chair of the Board, any highly sensitive information that was being shared with the Board, I would have really, you know, read the riot act to the Board members about confidentiality and reminded them of their oath that they took when they joined that Board, and the sensitive nature and potential for putting officers in harms way by leaking that information. So, no, I don’t think I can fully accept your premise.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Well, maybe you’ll fully accept this: ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Okay.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- that for Chief Sloly, he would be concerned about his officers going into an operation like that.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Absolutely.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you were asked by my friend for the Commission whether you were ever offered by Chief Sloly to be -- have a member of the Board embedded within the Police Service, like we heard about in Toronto, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you weren’t asked whether you asked whether you could be embedded, or someone could be embedded within the Police Service.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t believe we asked.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And in terms of your evidence about the plan and your concerns about the plan, just for the benefit of the public and for the Commissioner, I take it that you are not commenting on the sufficiency or the appropriateness of the plan; that would go beyond your expertise.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And so what we can take from you is you were concerned solely about the level of detail you and the Board were given about the plans.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I would like to have seen more detail. I’d also like to have been able to greater satisfy ourselves that there was a plan.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, you were assured there was a plan, and you were given details about that plan, I suggest to you, daily by Chief Sloly.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
What days are we talking about? We were seeing more details of a plan as we went on but for a lot of those 20 days, it did not feel that I was getting detailed information about a plan.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And I hear you about that.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Okay.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And what I’m trying to establish here is that what you were not satisfied with was the information you were getting, the level of detail you getting about the operational plan; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. And for at least a considerable amount of the time that there was a full plan.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, you understood, as Chief Sloly said repeatedly in Board meetings and Council meetings that are recorded, that the plan was well in hand and was evolving as information evolved, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So I want to talk now a bit about resources. I think you gave evidence that you first heard about the OPS requiring more resources around February 1.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And just to refresh your memory about that, and I can put the documents up if you like, you were actually signing Memorandums of Understanding for additional police officers from before the convoy arrived in Ottawa.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Oh, yes, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you knew from before the convoy arrived that Chief Sloly was making efforts to secure additional resources.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. I think that was sort of standard practice in some large-scale events that the City hosted in the past, that there was sharing of some resources at that level.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Exactly. And, actually, that’s exactly what I wanted to get to with you, which is that is how resources are, in the ordinary course, obtained, right, for big protests or big events?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. They’re obtained by Chief Sloly, drawing on his police relationships.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And that’s what he was doing from before the convoy arrived; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you have no basis, I take it, to disagree with me that he was doing that on a near constant basis during the convoy; reaching out for additional resources.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, and it amped up as time went on.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And it amped up.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Exactly. And what was exceptional here was not that Chief Sloly was asking for additional resources, although the extent to which he was asking was exceptional; what was exceptional here was that he was asking for so much help from the Board in getting those resources, right? We saw the February 3rd email where he wrote to you and said, “I need your help getting resources”?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And that wasn’t usual; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, it wasn’t usual.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
It was unusual. And so that when you get to the February 5th meeting where you say to him, “I want to hear what you need,” he had already been asking for help from the Board.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He had been asking for help, but we hadn’t -- it’s like, “Send more resources. Send more resources” but I didn’t -- I didn’t have the information what that actually looked like; how much.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The number.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
The numbers.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The numbers.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
What would it take, and he had made that comment, as you will recall. He had made that comment about not being certain that there was a policing solution. So, yeah, with all of, like, yeah, we need to understand this better.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And you understood his comment about there not being a policing solution, or there may not be a policing solution to be a call for help, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Very much so.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the call for help was, “We cannot, as the local police of jurisdiction, do this on our own”?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you understood it that way, and he also explained it that way. We saw it up on the screen, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
He explained, “We need the help from all levels of government.”
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And people, you say, didn’t understand that comment, right, when he first made it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And -- but you’ve said publicly, and we all know now, that he was right.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe he was very right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
He was just right earlier than a lot of other people.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Probably had more information than everyone else but, yeah, I think the way this all ended actually did prove that Chief Sloly, what he said early on, was in fact correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, Chief Sloly, after getting the Board's request on February 5th for a number, more details about resources, the next day, he provided that number and you were satisfied, and they mayor has given evidence that he was satisfied with the level of detail of that request?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And my friend asked, you know, was it ever suggested to you that he asked for twice as many resources as he needed? What you weren’t asked was to confirm that he was right about that too, wasn’t he?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
What he asked for?
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe that he was right about what he asked for.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now, I'm going to turn to Chief Sloly's resignation. You gave evidence that a week before his resignation, you called him as part of a wellness check?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I was in constant touch with Chief Sloly, but we were chatting about -- you know, we had a lot of stuff to talk about, but I also wanted to make sure that he was okay and that he was aware of, you know, what was happening in the broader community, and so we did speak about that.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And during that conversation, you expressed to him that a lot of people wanted his head?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't know if it was those exact words, but I mean, in a broad sense, that was -- he knew that. I knew that. There were calls for his resignation and you know, I probably crassly described, but I think the sentiment was clear.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And just to be fair to you, I'm going to suggest to you that he didn’t say, "Cut me a cheque. I'm not resigning," but rather, "I'm not resigning so if you want me out, you're going to have to buy out my contract"?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No. I mean, that might be what happened the next week in terms of closer to what you're suggesting, but the first week, I mean, I think it -- as I said this morning, I wasn’t certain of the -- what he was trying to convey. Was it just the frustration of the moment, or like, is it something he actually had in his mind? I didn’t have a sense of that. I didn’t pursue it. I had just heard that comment, and it may have been -- and I said this this morning -- it may have just been off the cuff and he may not have meant it at all. I didn’t know. I didn’t pursue it, so I didn’t know. I followed up on a week later.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And then -- so a week later, you called him again, and we're right now in the middle of the crisis, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you ask him about resigning, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I asked him if what he had said the week previous was what he was thinking about.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you testified that as far as you saw, he was never supported by the senior command?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was -- there were problems in the senior command.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And is it fair to say that that call on that evening of the 14th asking him about resigning would have felt to him like a lost support by his Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It wasn’t intended to be that. It was -- I don't know how he would interpret it. I was concerned for him, as I said this morning, and was concerned for the story that was going to be coming out from CBC that was casting him in a particularly dark light. And I didn’t know how much he could withstand, and I -- you know, I wasn’t doing it to suggest in any way that he should leave. And when he said no, he was going to see it through that evening, I said, "That’s fine, Chief." It's like, I didn’t want to leave him with the impression that we were pushing him out. That wasn’t the case. It was a conversation. I probably knew more about some council motive than he did because I hadn’t shared that with him, and I -- you know, I just thought it was going to be a tough few days.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Very briefly, on the CBC article, the article you're referring to refers to confidential sources, including within the OPS, about tension, raised voices during the crisis, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And is it fair that -- we've seen footage, for example, of the February 16th council meeting, that there were a lot of raised voices to go around in this period?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Oh my goodness, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Everyone had difficult days during this period?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And I can see from the Commissioner that I'm out of time, but you have, Mr. Commissioner, some more questions for this witness. I would ask for leave for a few more minutes to continue my cross- examination.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Make it very short, please.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. If we can pull up, please, OBP1649? If we could go to page 6, please? These are the minutes, in-camera minutes of the Ottawa Police Service Board on February 15th, and this was the day of Chief Sloly's resignation, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
If you can scroll -- oh, there we go. So in the first big paragraph, we see at the top, a point was raised regarding Mr. Sloly having struggled to be accepted within the organization, given that he was considered an outsider, and you've given evidence about that, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then the last sentence of that paragraph reads: "In conversation with Chair Deans the week prior, Deputy Chief Bell had advised that he would not have done anything differently if he were in charge." Right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Deputy Chief Bell told you that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He did.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. You've also publicly stated that in your view, Chief Sloly was the subject of racism?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that he was the subject of scapegoating?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that at the end of this, there were a lot of finger pointing and a lot of blame, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And a lot fell at the feet of the first Black police chief in Ottawa, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Exactly.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you'll agree with me that it would be very unfair to lay blame for the events of the Freedom Convoy on the feet of Chief Sloly alone?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Alone? Absolutely.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was a lot of blame to go around.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
A lot of blame to go around, a lot of things that we can learn about how things could have gone differently, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Oh, correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. But as you've confirmed, you never lost confidence in your chief of police during this entire event?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did not.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next on the list we have the Ottawa Coalition.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner and Ms. Deans. My name is Paul Champ. I'm legal counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have some questions for you further to your testimony of this morning. Ms. Deans, I just want to ask you first about the context or the environment with the Ottawa Police Service immediately preceding the Freedom Convoy. This was a bit of a tough time for the Ottawa Police; would you agree?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There had been a series of scandals. You had a -- Deputy Chief Jaswal had been suspended due to sexual harassment allegations; there'd been a termination of the CAO, the Chief Administration Officer; there were workplace reviews that were coming out of low morale and harassment and discriminatory attitudes in the police. These were all the things that were going on just in the previous year; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is fair.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you referred to this morning about the Ottawa Police was flying with one wing, to some extent, you meant that there was only permanent deputy chief, that being Deputy Chief Bell, and then the other deputy chief position that had a number of rotating superintendents? Is that what you meant?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s what I meant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we know that Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, who was in charge of this operation, was one of those superintendents who was just acting deputy chief at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So presumably had a bit less experience than others who would have been in that role otherwise?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, turning to the freedom convoy, and just before the arrival, as a lay person, I think you told us this morning that, you know, you were following the news, you were following some social media, and you saw the huge number of trucks that were rumbling across the country, and you saw the millions of dollars being raised in GoFundMe. And on that basis, you had concerns that these protestors looked like they were planning to stick around for a while. Is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was concerned. M’hm.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you aware that some police intelligence at that time, I think we’re going to hear about that evidence later today, were that some of these protestors were saying that they planned to stay in Ottawa until their demands were met? Were you aware of that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t think I was aware of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. But notwithstanding all of this, Chief Sloly was reassuring you that in their assessment, and based on all the other inputs they had, that they believed that the freedom convoy protestors were going to be moving out by the Monday? Is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But did he give you any indication whether the Ottawa Police had a contingency plan in the event that didn’t happen?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I don’t believe I was aware of a contingency plan.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And Councillor Deans, looking at one of the documents that’s referred to in your interview summary about some texts that you were having with Deputy Chief Bell on January the 31st, just after the weekend, where you asked him how we can ensure that no more trucks are allowed into the city, we had all these trucks that were ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M’hm.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- gridlocking downtown, and you wanted to know that there were no more trucks allowed in, and Deputy Chief Bell told you that no more trucks could drive into that area now. Do you recall getting that assurance?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
If it’s in a text message, I guess I got it. There were a lot of text messages.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, for sure. Not with the Mayor, but we’ll get to that in a moment. But the -- there were more trucks coming in after that first weekend; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, there were.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you ever get any answer to that from either Deputy Chief Bell or Chief Sloly about why more trucks were being allowed into downtown Ottawa after that first weekend?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, there were -- I mean, there were a number of questions being asked about that because, I mean on one hand, first they were telling us that there was a constitutional right, there was no where else to put the trucks, they were allowed to come. Then it was like, “We’re going to try to kick them out.” And then they’re coming in. It was just -- it was -- it was a fluid situation.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a brief question about your telephone conversation with City Solicitor David White about the potential for an injunction, I’ve had some conversations with counsel. I’m going to ask you a question that doesn’t get to the substance of what Mr. White was advising you, but I’m -- Mr. White did express to you that they did not have a plan to go for an injunction; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, did he say it was because of one of two reasons, one, that there was concerns that the Ottawa Police would be unable to enforce an injunction? Or was he suggesting that they would be concerned about their reputation if they were unsuccessful, that they might be embarrassed if the Court denied their injunction?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well I think it was the latter, and perhaps partially the former too.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is that what he expressed to you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I don’t know if I’m allowed to tell you what he told me.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
We’ve been permissive. I think that’s the end of the discussion.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. White tell you who would make the decision or who was responsible for making the decision?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Mr. Kanellakos.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The City Manager. That’s -- and Mr. Kanellakos, he’s the city manager who later on referred to Ms. Zexi Li, the person who did get the injunction as “some 20- year-old”? That’s the same city manager?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He is. It’s the only city manager.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you testified this morning, Councillor Deans, that you weren’t aware that the OPP and the RCMP were perhaps delaying deployment of officers or resources because they had some concerns about the OPS operational plans. You never had heard about that before? Is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, and I listened to the testimony and I have to say I was angered by it. I really believed that the oversight body could have usefully used that information in the performance of our duty. And I listened to the testimony from Mr. Kanellakos, where he said, “Well it was operational. There was no need to give it to Councillor Deans or the Board.” And I respectfully disagree with that. That was very important.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What could the Board have done with that information?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well we definitely could have questioned, we could have asked, “What is it about the plan that is insufficient to gain resources? What do they need?” I mean, I think there was a lot we could have done. I think our focus would have, perhaps, shifted to that plan and what we needed to shore up the plan to get resources, rather than just asking for resources. But we didn’t have that information.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And had you heard concerns that the OPP were raising concerns that their officers, at times, were being mis-deployed, sent one place and then sent to another, and time was being wasted and they had concerns about that? I think we’re going to hear about that from ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, no, that information was not shared with the Board.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Ms. Deans, did you -- when we were getting later into the protest and there was all these concerns, or this or that happening, did you ever speak to either the deputy chiefs about, you know, what was happening, whether they had concerns about how things were unfolding, or what the Ottawa Police -- how the Ottawa Police were responding?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I phoned Deputy Chief Bell one day. I mean, I felt that I had a good relationship with him and it was a, you know, just between him and I conversation, which obviously it’s not now, but I intended it to be then, and I just said to him, “Deputy Chief Bell, I just really just wanted to ask you one question. If you were the chief right now, what would you be doing differently?” And his answer was very simple. It was, “Nothing.”
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so from that, you drew that there was no concerns at the senior command with Chief Sloly’s leadership, per say?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t know if that’s what I drew from it. I just drew from it that they wouldn’t be doing anything ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Wouldn’t have been doing ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- different.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. Now, I want to turn a bit to your relationship with Mayor Watson. If you -- while you were Chair of the Board, if you ever wanted to have a private conversation with Mayor Watson, could you just call him?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And why was that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I asked Mayor Watson early on in my tenure as Chair of the Police Services Board if he would share his phone number with me in order that we could converse and, I mean, in times like this in particular, it was actually during the protests of the Black Lives Matter, and you probably recall that ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- there was a lot of tension during that particular protest. And I had gone through his Chief of Staff to get to him and I said, “Could you just give me your phone number? Because, like, it would just be easier if I could phone you when there are issues that, you know, are on the front burner and urgent?” And he just said, “No.” He said he doesn’t answer his phone, he doesn’t usually have it on, nobody has the number, and you know.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With some of these other key players that we’ve heard about, Chief Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, Mr. Arpin himself, City Manager Kanellakos, you had all of their numbers and communicated with them; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it fair to say over the years, Councillor Deans, you’ve had a number of political disagreements with Mayor Watson? Is that fair to say?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’ve both been on City Council in one fashion or another for two decades or more?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just prior to the freedom convoy, or around that time, you had been -- you’d indicated an intention you planned to run for mayor this year at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
In December, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did Mayor Watson ever speak to you about that? About whether he thought it was a good thing for you to turn for mayor or not? Did he say anything to you about that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And notwithstanding your political history with the mayor, did you believe that all of Ottawa needed to respond as one team to this crisis?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Absolutely. I think I described that this morning. You know, you can have disagreements with someone at any point. We’re not all going to like each other. But you have to be able to rise above that and work together. And especially in a time of crisis, that has to be entirely set aside. You have to be, as I described it this morning, in the same boat, rowing in the same direction.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in retrospect, Councillor Deans, does it now seem to you that this political rivalry, to some extent, did in fact interfere with the ability of you to work collaboratively or effectively with the mayor, or your ability to work together during this crisis?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, certainly, it was impeded. I guess I take a little bit of issue with the term "rivalry". I was always willing to work with Mayor Watson. Always. And, you know, I -- I mean, we have political disagreements. It doesn't have to extend to a personal animosity, and I didn't want that. I had spoken to Mayor Watson about that on a number of occasions. I didn't see the benefit of it. So I don't know if I was feeling any need to carry on a rivalry. I was just feeling a need to do my job.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But did you perceive that he had some animosity towards you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just turning to then after Chief Sloly resigned and you and the Police Services Board took steps to find a temporary replacement for him. We'd heard Mr. Arpin testify that he had a lot of criticism, or even Mayor Watson, you know, they didn't follow a process and so on and so forth. Why didn't you follow a big, lengthy, extensive process like the eight-month period that we're seeing Police Services Board now following?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, it's just -- to me, the suggestion of that is kind of ridiculous. I mean, you can't go through a protracted process in the middle of an emergency when you're trying to shore up your senior command and make sure that that senior command has the tools in place to address a crisis in your city. And so there was never an intention to hire anyone to be the ongoing Chief of Police in Ottawa without a process. And I was frustrated that it was characterized -- I mean, the mayor's office got ahead of that story in the media by leaking it, which it was confidential information that was leaked, and they got ahead of that story and characterized it as something quite different than it was intended to be.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You felt they were playing a bit of politics with you in the midst of this crisis in the city?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I guess to a certain extent that old maxim about never wasting a good crisis, it also presents an opportunities to settle some old scores, and I guess that's the way I viewed that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's how you felt.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I'm not getting into the reasons why, you've already explained them quite well the rationale to the Board about why they were preferring external candidate, but just to be clear, without Mr. Torigian taking over as Chief, as a result, there left the Ottawa Police Service with an Acting Chief and two Acting Deputy Chiefs; is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's right, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the three top positions, the Ottawa Police were all acting ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Senior command is two deputies and a chief and the CEO. And as you mentioned, we had released our CEO in the past year and we had just brought in a new civilian senior member of the command team, Blair Dunker, and she had only just started. So not only did we have everybody in an acting position, we also had a brand new hire in the civilian member of that senior command.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just taking a -- and just a half a step back, you told us about you got wind over the weekend of a potential motion by City Council to call for the removal or resignation of Chief Sloly. And when you heard about that, you contacted Mr. Arpin ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. -- Mayor Watson's Chief of Staff. Now Mr. Arpin testified that he communicated to you that such a motion would be a bad idea. He didn't -- you know, that you needed to work together to try to stop such a motion. Is that what he told you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We had some text exchanges, I know that they've been provided to you, about this, but, yeah, I think, you know, he intimated through that that at that point, they weren't going to agree to it. But there was a lot of room for that to change in the conversation. And there was one text he said -- I forget what he was referring to now, but he said if Peter's that stupid, then it's his own funeral. So he didn't give me any confidence that the mayor's office -- and I had described before this strong mayor model before Doug Ford even conceived of a strong mayor model, we had one in Ottawa that was devised by the mayor at the beginning of the term, and that our mayor could really win any vote, and, you know, put on -- have any resolution put on the floor of Council, or not have a resolution, as the case may be, put on the floor of Council. So it was always with the consent of the mayor that what Council was dealing with.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if I understand what you're telling us is that notwithstanding Mr. Arpin saying to you, reassuring you that, you know, the mayor wouldn't necessarily support such a motion, you yourself had concerns that he might flip suddenly and then support a motion like that without notice ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I didn't hear anything that was telling me that motion wouldn't come forward. It was there was some hesitation there that didn't give me relief. And it -- when I say that any motion wouldn't come to the floor of Council without the consent of the mayor, I'm talking about with his 15 members of Council that, you know, always vote with him. There are other ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We'll say it Watson.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- more into ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Often referred to as the Watson Club. But the independent members of Council may well have brought a motion, but that group usually worked with the mayor - --
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now turning to your telephone call with the mayor the morning after Chief Sloly had resigned and you were about to later that day announce that a new Chief had been hired; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so we've heard testimony from you already and Mayor Watson about him and you've got this recorded conversation. I just want to ask you, did you record that conversation with the mayor because you didn't trust him completely; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- oh, by the way, incidentally, were you aware when you were having that conversation with the mayor that the mayor's staff were already working on a motion to remove you, were you aware at that time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I'd heard it, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But he didn't tell you that that's what he was trying to do?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I knew it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes, Machiavelli had nothing on our mayor. Thank you very much, Ms. Deans. That's all I have.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the next up is the Ottawa Police Service.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Commissioner, I was wondering if I might raise this matter. I understand that there is going to be -- that the recording, the audio recording was going to be played. I understand that that request has been made and we are not opposed to it, and I would suggest that if it is going to be played, that it be played now before I start my cross-examination.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So just to get confirmation, is there any objection to the recording being played?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
No, Mr. Commissioner. The City consents.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Seeing no objection, we'll sit back and listen to the witness in her own words and the witness from yesterday. Okay. Is that -- has that been lined up? Are we able to do that now or is that a problem?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I believe we can. This has sort of just been dealt with on the fly, but I believe the hearing's clerk has it. It's POE.OPB000001.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, very efficient, eh? Okay. Madam Clerk, you can play it. [AUDIO PLAYBACK]
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's 10 minutes of your time. So go ahead.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That's what I was trying to avoid. (LAUGHTER)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon, Councillor Deans. My name is David Migicovsky. I act for the Ottawa Police Service. Councillor Deans, am I correct that while Chief Sloly was the Chief, he had asked for an increase in the number of officers?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And officers had been hired over the last several years, but just to cover attrition. There was a hiring freeze; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And as of 2022, I understand that Ottawa Police had less officers, sworn officers, than it did in 2019; is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I'll take your word for it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Could I ask you, please, to turn up OPB01278. And if we could please go to page 4. You'll see, this was the meeting that you were at; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And at this point, Interim Chief Bell was in command?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And a question was raised regarding the Service's operational plan, and then you got some information from Interim Chief Bell; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
He provided a briefing. And is it fair to say that you got a lot more information as a Board on operationally what was going on at the time when Chief Bell became the Interim Chief?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was definitely more information provided this day. So yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I believe on page 4, if we go to the paragraph that starts, "A question was raised." Yeah, thank you. You'll see: "A question was raised regarding the ineffective policing having been seen in the City, and it was suggested...there were instances in which police could have engaged in enforcement but did not." Am I correct, then, the minutes accurately reflect: "[Interim] Chief Bell noted that the Service had committed to a review of all actions having brought them to their current situation."
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
He indicated he would review it. And then if you look two paragraphs later... If you go down to the paragraph: "A question was raised regarding why roadblocks had not been installed prior to the arrival of any convoys. The Service again noted...they were supportive of a full review being conducted to identify any mistakes made or laws that required updating, however their focus at the time was forward- looking." Correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if you go to page 5, there was a request in the third paragraph for twice daily updates from the Service to the Board, and this is because the Board wanted to get more information than they felt they'd been getting from Chief Sloly. Is that right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. I mean, things were really heating up, and I think the Board was getting more assertive in demanding information. So yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And Interim Chief said he supported increased communications with the Board, but twice daily updates wouldn't be possible because from a resource point of view that's taking a lot of Command staff away from time that is needed operationally; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that seemed reasonable to you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You talked about not trusting the Mayor. Is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think I talked about it. I think I confirmed in answer to a question that I had recorded that conversation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And in fact, the person who recorded it, we can hear at the beginning, is Jessica; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That's Jessica Bradley?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
My executive assistant.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That's Jessica Bradley?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you asked her to record it.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that was a Teams meeting; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so Teams has a function in which you can record a meeting, but if you do that it will show that the meeting is being recorded. So that's not what you did, is it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's not what we did. I don't know if I knew that or not. I -- as I said earlier to the Commissioner, I'm not the leading-most expert in anything technical, but I just wanted to make sure that we had an accurate reflection of that meeting.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you didn't tell the Mayor that you were recording that phone call?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did not, nor did the Mayor mention to me that Steve Kanellakos, the City Manager, was a silent observer in that room. You heard at the beginning, he said that Serge was in the room, but he failed to mention the City Manager was also in the room.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And are you saying that by way of justifying why you recorded it in detail?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I don't feel a need to justify why I recorded it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You don't have any problems with the ethics of recording a conversation and not telling somebody that you're doing it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I didn't understand there to be any reason not to, and I could see in this particular tense situation, where I was hearing rumours that I was going to be unseated, that there might be a reason for me to file an Integrity Commissioner complaint later, and an accurate record of our conversation might be in order.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And wouldn't you be able to file an accurate record of the conversation by saying, "Hey Mayor, I'm taping this conversation"?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. I wouldn't have had any problem with that either, I just failed to do it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think it was calculated.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And is that something you do regularly, tape ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- conversations?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It's not.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So this just seemed like a good idea to you at the time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
This was a very tense moment. I've been a member of Council for 28 years. I take pride in my reputation. I think I've worked hard for this city and for the citizens of our city. And I could see that -- you know, my feeling was that the -- at this point... You know, there was a lot of information that was possessed by senior City officials and the Mayor that had not been shared with the Board, and they felt no reason to do that, even though we had the political oversight. And the only time we seemed to come into their orbit was when they were looking for a scapegoat.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I take it, Councillor Deans, you support openness and transparency?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with me that openness and transparency doesn't include doing a secret recording of a conversation with the Mayor?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I would suggest to you, Counsel, that openness and transparency is providing to a Commission a fair and reasonable and accurate description of a conversation. And what I said to the Mayor is that if he told me not to go ahead with a motion that had been approved by the Board, I wouldn't, but he fell short of that. He never -- he said he hoped I would reconsider, but he never told me not to. And so if you want to talk about openness and transparency, maybe we could start there.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Could we go back to my question?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
My question was would you agree with me that openness and transparency doesn't support doing a secret recording of a conversation with the Mayor?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I don't think I would.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You don't agree with that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I think these were tense times, and I think that, you know, there -- I felt a need to do that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And openness and transparency isn't a problem for you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think I've been very open and transparent in my career.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And what I understood when I listened to the recording was what you said to the Mayor was, "If you don't want me to sign the contract I won't."
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I heard those exact words on the audio.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, and then you also heard -- -
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sorry, I haven't asked my question yet. And am I correct that that Mayor -- that at the end of that -- and Mayor Watson's response to that comment was: "I think it would be destabilizing. I don’t favour it. I don’t want it to occur." Was there any doubt in your mind after that conversation that Mayor Watson did not support what you were doing?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No. I agree. Mayor Watson did not support what I was doing, but Mayor Watson does not direct the operations of the Board. I -- I'm the Chair of a Board that had taken a decision, and unless the mayor of the city was directing me not to, then I was going to proceed, and I think I made that clear. I mean, I can understand there's some nuance on the tape. I understand that. But I thought I was quite clear. If you are telling me not to, then I won't, and I'll go back. But he fell short. He said he hoped I would reconsider at the end of that message.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Well, aren't we playing word games, Ms. Deans?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I don't think so.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Well, let me finish my question, if you don’t mind. What you said was, "If you don’t want me to sign the contract, I won't." And my question to you was, was there any doubt, at the end of that conversation, that he did not want you to sign, direct you to not sign it?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, and I ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ask the question. Don’t add the editorial.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. I think there were two parts, but perhaps we'd have to play it again. But I said, "If you are telling me not to, I won't."
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. So ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
And I understand there's some nuance on the tape and perhaps he misunderstood what we were saying to each other, but I thought it was quite clear that unless I had a direction from the mayor of the City of Ottawa to overturn a decision of the oversight body, that had been taken, then I would proceed. I report to the Board, not to the mayor. I informed the mayor out of courtesy and out of respect to the office of mayor.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You indicated -- I am correct, by the way, when I say the mayor cannot direct you as Chair of the Police Services Board to not to sign a contract, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. I told him if he did direct me, at that point, I would go back and have another conversation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
One of the things you indicated was that Graham Wight ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- said that your suggestion of Matt Torigian was an elegant choice, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
An elegant solution, I said.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If I could ask, please, to turn up Document ONT001121?
The Registrar (POEC)
Can you repeat the number, Counsel?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry. It's ONT000001121. And you'll see there's an email from Graham Wight. Graham Wight was the Police Services Board Advisor?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if you'd be good enough, please, to scroll down? And so sorry, you can go up for the first paragraph. Just there, perfect. Thank you. "Chair Dean stated that Matt Torigian had tentatively agreed to take the role and asked if the advisor, me, thought that was a good idea. I stated that I could not endorse any person for the role, but that the Board needs to have a chief in place ASAP, because Chief Sloly's agreement expired at the end of the day. I stated clearly to the Board that they are prohibited from not having a chief in place and should take steps to appoint a chief of police as soon as possible." That is what Mr. Wight's advice to you was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you talked about the various complaints that you heard about in the Ottawa Police Service, which you described as a "poisoned environment", I think?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
M'hm.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And I take it, in spite of those concerns, you took no steps to investigate whether that was true or not true?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We had taken a lot of steps to delve into the significant issues of workplace sexual violence and harassment inside Ottawa Police. We hired Janice Rubin from Rubin Tomlinson in Toronto. We conducted a 10-month investigation into what was happening inside Ottawa Police with a view to improving the work environment and the culture.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. That related to issues of sexual harassment and sexism in the workplace, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
And ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That’s what ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
And harassment in the workplace.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so you did nothing to investigate the specific poisoned environment that apparently you heard about from others and from Chief Sloly, and in your capacity as Board Chair, you did not investigate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We forwarded specific concerns to the OCPC for investigation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you had -- and there had not yet been any investigation; is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
We had not received a report from the OCPC as to the outcome of their investigation. It's not the Board that investigates themselves. They forward it to OCPC for investigation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so of course, until you have some sort of investigation, you don’t know. You're operating on rumours and innuendo and hearsay, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, you're operating on perhaps allegations, but they are unsubstantiated until the outcome of an investigation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you indicated that you heard that there was some issue with respect to Deputy Chief Bell? No particulars were provided and you never investigated that, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, we didn’t have time to investigate that, but I had heard that Deputy Chief Bell was involved in some of it, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you thought it was okay to tarnish his reputation and what he had done without any investigation into that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think I was tarnishing Deputy Chief Bell's reputation. With all due respect, I mean, I had felt that we were making a good decision at a very difficult time and the way I saw it at the time is, we were preserving Deputy Chief Bell's reputation.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you indicated that ultimately, Chief Sloly was right, proved to be right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe he was.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so -- and yet, when you spoke to the mayor, you recounted that when you spoke to Deputy Chief Bell at the time, and he said to you he would not have done something different, you thought that was a mark against him. And yet, you're saying Chief Sloly was correct in what ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, it turned out that what he had identified early on as the resource requirement to end the occupation of our city was quite correct. In the midst of that chaos that our city was facing, I was wondering if there was more that could be done, and I phoned Chief Bell -- he had a lot of experience inside the Ottawa Police Service -- to ask him, frankly, what he might do different, and he said, "Nothing."
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, what he said was that changing the leadership would not be a good thing to do at this point. You phoned him before you'd made the deal with Chief Sloly, you asked him about it, and he showed that he was loyal to the chief. And he said it would be destabilizing to now change leadership, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I think that’s fair.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you talked about allegations of racism?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t think I talked about it. I think I answered a question about it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And again, am I correct that you had no particulars of it? You weren’t faulting anybody, it may be a systemic issue in policing? Is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, it was just my observation of what Chief Sloly faced when he got here, racist memes, other things I’m sure you’re familiar with that made it very difficult for him early on in his tenure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And as a result, you entered into an agreement to pay Chief Sloly how much money to terminate his contract?
So, Commissioner, I’m sure there are 1,000 people who would want to be heard on this issue. I have no idea how that could possibly be relevant to the mandate of the Commission.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I don’t see why it isn’t.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s not the test.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Well the test is -- it’s a pretty broad mandate, Commissioner, that you have. You’re looking into all of the circumstances. We’ve looked at whether the Service had enough resources, you’re going to look at how they expended their funds, the decisions they made during the convoy. I submit that it may indeed be relevant about an expense that the Board procured at a time when this was going on. And it was a rather, I suspect, significant expense.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, I’ve missed something. You say the Commission is to look into the expenses of the City?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No. Sorry. I was -- what I said is -- or what I intended to say was that the Commission will be looking into the circumstances that led to the Emergencies Act, you’re looking at what was going on in the Ottawa Police Service, you’re looking at what happened at the Ottawa Police Services Board, and it seems to me that in looking at that issue, it may be relevant to determine what funds the Board expended at this time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t see it as having any relevance, the amount that was paid. I think it’s been in evidence that he was paid severance, and I don’t think we -- I don’t see the relevance of going any further.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That’s fine. Thank you. You indicated ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And by the way, your time is up.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If I might just have two more minutes?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a minute and a half.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
One of the things you said in your conversation with the Mayor was a lot of people don’t support Steve Bell; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with me that a lot of people did not support Chief Sloly either?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so those kinds of things are not really things that you can take into account in making decisions; fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well I think what I was referring to in that conversation is the reason that the Board had decided to go outside with the temporary hire.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And finally, my question to you is, in retrospect, because we have not had the full review that Chief Bell indicated would take place, you would agree with me that we really do need to examine what went on, why it went on, and ultimately how to prevent it for the future?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
We don’t know who was responsible for that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I would agree with you that there needs to be a full examination. We need to learn from this, ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- lest we repeat it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You’re welcome.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. You came under time. Okay. Next is the convoy organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Ms. Deans.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Good afternoon.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which is an organization that was incorporated to represent the protestors who were in your city in January and February of 2022. First off, though I am not from here, thank you for your service as the Police Commissioner -- or, we call it the Police Commissioner back home.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Fair enough.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So thank you very much. I just want to start off, of course we didn’t get the recording until this morning. In that recording of your conversation with Mayor Watson, you said you had been contacted by someone within OPS who had been called off under the interim chiefship that was then in place with Steve Bell. Can you kind of explain that for me?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, a senior officer inside police had phoned and shared his version of events with me, sort of just informing me, from his perspective, what was happening. And he said that the day of that particular planned event, that the Incident Commander was changed that day, and that all -- there was some internal disagreement and it led to the end of that particular operation.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I’m just going to have to ask you to clarify what is the event and what is the operation you speak of?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was to -- a planned takeout of the intersection of Sussex and Rideau.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the plan that got cancelled so that my clients could move on and then -- oh, well that confirms what I was looking for. Thank you. You -- did you know about the tripartite meetings that the Mayor was having with federal government elected officials on February 7th, 8th, and 10th of 2022, at the time?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He didn’t tell you about that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so obviously you weren’t invited?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I was not invited, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And of course, that meeting was about police resources?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you’re the Chair of what, you don’t call it the Commission, the Ottawa Police Service Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you run that Board that decides how to dole out resources to the police; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you know that on January 30th, 2022, Chief Sloly had asked the City and the City somewhat agreed to get an injunction? Were you aware of that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
On what date?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
January 30th, 2022.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It’s all a little foggy. There was definitely discussions about injunctions that didn’t move forward. I don’t think I can confirm for you exactly the dates.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. The injunctions that you did discuss, did you ever discuss that the terms of that injunction would be to both remove the trucks and get the honking to stop? Is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t think I had that level of detail, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did Chief Sloly ever tell you, in any of your conversations, that on January 31st, 2022, RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki told him not to get the injunction because it would be an official movement to another stage, that it would involve the whole country, and that anything official will spark a national response? Did he ever say that to you?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not to the best of my recollection.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll ask him and Commissioner Lucki then. So you did not know that -- well, you did know that the federal police service, the RCMP, had been involved in the matter, in dealing with the protestors?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And to your knowledge, after January 31st, 2022, did Chief Sloly ever advise to get an injunction still after that point?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was -- I believe -- I mean, the timeline is just a little bit all meshed together in my mind, but I believe there were still ongoing discussions.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And to your knowledge, and I just want to make this clear, because I know that you were in sort of a vacuum, so but you did know that from January 25th to February 14th, 2022, that there were multiple police services involved in dealing with this matter?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And that included the Ottawa Police Service, the Ontario Provincial Police, and the RCMP?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Among others that you ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Among others. Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that you know as well, at the federal level and the provincial level, it’s not politicians that decide to execute or carry out and apply police resources with respect to events and investigations, but it’s the police agency itself because they’re independent? Right. And to my knowledge as well, and I wanted to put this to you, is there any prohibition on yourself or members of the Ottawa Police Service Board, of Council, contacting someone like Commissioner Lucki or the Commissioner of the OPP to have a discussion about resources?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't believe there's any prohibition doing that. I think the protocol though would be that politicians speak to politicians and police officers speak to police.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but is it true with the Commission that you do invite sworn members of police agencies like the OPP and the RCMP to meet with the Ottawa Police Service Board at times and you have in this case too, I believe?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So is it fair to say that there was nothing stopping the Ottawa Police Service Board from asking for any of the Commissioners from the OPP or the RCMP to come before them in order to have a conversation about resources?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Can I ask just -- and I'm not trying to poke, but why wasn't that done?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I've been asking myself that question too. I mean, our -- I don't know. I mean, if I were doing it again would I do that? Probably yes. But at the time, we were receiving information through the channel of the Police Service and that was our primary source of information.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you'd already discussed the company Navigator a little bit, and it was in the news, and I know they contacted you. When was Navigator retained for the Ottawa Police Service; do you remember?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Months and months previous to this event. I mean, we -- the Board had given a direction to the Police Service to amp up the communications function because we felt that it was quite inadequate, but they came back to the Board with -- I mean, I'm not going to get this entirely right, but they -- the sentiment was we don't have time to amp up because we don't have enough ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
--- people to do that. So we just need to hire some help for now. And they wanted to hire Navigator because they had some relationship with Navigator, and so that's -- they chose -- I know they're a crisis communications firm, but they were also providing regular communications advice to Ottawa Police.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Because how it was seemed to have been spun in the media is that they were hired specifically due to ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- Chief Sloly not being able to deal with this.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah. No, that was not the case.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was done way in advance?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Way in advance.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. That's good. I just wanted to know that. And then I understand that when the retainer did happen, and it's good to know it was that far away, if what I'm about to just ask you is correct, I understand the retainer with Navigator was $75,000 on a fee-for-service basis but it was a -- maybe not pay up front, but it was a $75,000 cap, which is usually less than what their normal retainer of 100,000 is. Is that about accurate?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't know if I actually knew what the details of that retainer were.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now I also understand the Ottawa Police Service had retained the assistance from a company called Advanced Symbolic Inc., also known as ASI.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you aware of them? When was ASI retained?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
In -- certainly in advance of this occasion. Chief Sloly had brought a representative from ASI to the Board basically to talk about the benefits of ASI, and he felt that there was -- that their services could be useful.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what was ASI doing for the Ottawa Police Service exactly; could you explain that? I have an understanding but I'd ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- like you to explain it.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I'd like Chief Sloly to explain it, if you don't mind, because, I mean, my very, very limited understanding of ASI is that it basically searches many, many, many sites and sort of pulls out key words to create an impression of public opinion, if you will.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Would it be fair to say when ASI was discussed with you, did they refer to the phrase "data analytics"?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Probably, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So they get all this stuff and then they give you in a report or to Chief Sloly the public perception of what's going on, so that Chief Sloly and his team know how to react; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think generally speaking that's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now I want to take you to one part, and I'm wondering if you're aware of this, and it's come up at some of the production. Do you remember when it was announced -- I believe the Ottawa Police Services had mentioned that they had been in touch with Provincial Child and Family Services about apprehending children in the protest; do you remember that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Vaguely.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Were you aware that it was Navigator who told them to do that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I just want to get into sort of your -- you know, what you had said. You stated that you had an intention to work together and put aside political differences, and it's good to hear that, and I'm sure the public is happy to hear that as well. I'm just going to have to ask you, can you tell me about your relationship between yourself and Mayor Watson?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I mean, I don't know what there is to tell. I have worked with Mayor Watson for a very long time. We have worked on many files together over the years. I think I enjoyed more confidence in the mayor until relatively recently, until this term of Council when I detected just perhaps a change in Mayor Watson's general approach. And it goes far beyond me. He had, for whatever reason, at the start of this term, decided to build more of a coalition approach to governing than he had in the past. And I wasn't part of that coalition, so I suppose in some ways became a bit more of an outsider than I had been before. But when I had worked with him on Transit Commission, for example, we were landing a PRESTO card that didn't work, we worked very well together.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Could you agree with me that the tension also started when you decided to -- you had announced, at least to him maybe privately or maybe publicly, that you intended to bring a motion to fund litigation as against Bill C21; do you remember that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Well, I don't think that's when it started. That was just one of many, many, many disagreements politically we had. And listen, I don't think there's anything wrong with political disagreements. I think it's actually quite healthy for our democracy. So we don't have to agree on every issue. I think the issue is when it becomes personal.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so moving on to the issue with the hiring of the Interim Chief. You heard yesterday and in the recording we heard that Mayor Watson claimed that he had concerns about your and your Council's appointment of the proposed new Interim Chief Matthew Torigian because there was not enough consultation with stakeholders; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before Steve Bell became the Interim Chief, how much consultation was there?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You mean at the very end when he ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right at the beginning. So when Steve Bell took over as Interim Chief, how much consultation did Mayor Watson do?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't think he did any.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it's fair to say that the issue that Mayor Watson took with your Council or your Board appointing a Chief on the basis that there was no consultation, it's fair to say he went about it and did no consultation and had his own appointed; would you say that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I just wanted to cover one point and I believe it was covered, but just not with a specific association, because there's two police unions; correct? There's the one for senior officers and then the other one?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I also understand your evidence that it was also the Ottawa Police Senior Officer's Association which is those with ranks of inspector and higher who also did not want Sloly as their first choice for mayor -- or for Chief back in 2019; is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I don't think I really knew that until, you know, some time after he was hired.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And with respect to Chief Sloly's relationship, in your statement you specifically mention he had issues with the relationship with the Community Health Resource Centre. Can you elaborate on what that was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, it was just an observation that I had made through the budget process in the setting of the 2022 budget. The Ottawa Community Health and Resource Centres came forward with a proposal really for some alternative service delivery in terms of addressing mental health calls and addictions calls and housing crisis calls, and there was a lot of tension through the budget process between those organisations that I observed.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And was that organisation with the community health and resource centres, I take it if there was issues in the budget it had to do with tension between funding that the Ontario Police Service was getting versus funding they were not, or et cetera? Is that what it was?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Ontario Police Service?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, sorry, sorry, Ottawa Police Service. So the Ottawa Police Service was getting some - - a lot higher funding. I take it they wanted more funding. And was that the tension?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No, I don't think it was that. I think it was that there was a growing perspective in our community that police are responding to calls for crisis situations, like someone experiencing homelessness, or someone having an addictions crisis or a mental health crisis, and that that isn't always the right response. And there are growing cries in the community to set up a new system where if you called 9-1-1 you might be calling for a paramedic, you might be calling for fire, you might be calling for police, or you might be calling for a mental health worker. And -- so I think there are a lot of voices in the community, and including community health and resource centres that would like to see, you know, at least an opportunity to where, I mean, if you might be dispatching more than one. You might dispatch fire and police and a mental health worker. But right now, police are the responders because they take up that space, not because they're necessarily trained in crisis response of that nature, or not because they're necessarily the best response. And so I think there was some tension between Chief Sloly and the community that would like to see a change in -- some modest change in police response to those types of calls.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was very detailed. Has anyone ever told you maybe you should be the Chair of the Police Board Panel? (LAUGHTER)
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Not recently.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So my last question is this: Is it fair to say that one of the biggest contentions with respect to getting information from Chief Sloly wasn't so much just with the information based on everyone's public statements within your Council, what they wanted to know was "Can you give us a date when the protests will end and can you give us a date if it's not going to end how you're going to remove them?" Is that fair? That's really what you wanted to know. That's what your constituents were bugging you about in all the emails.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I -- I mean, in broad strokes I think that's fair.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And Chief Sloly, and to no fault of his own, he couldn't tell you that because he didn't even know.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No. And if those resources hadn't arrived, or perhaps if we hadn't had extra tools, like the Emergencies Act, they might still be here.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well -- and I understand the extra tools, and I guess we can argue about that, but ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Sure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- any -- would you agree with me that if there was a like order to the Emergencies Act to remove the protesters, et cetera, as long as you had the resources that, you know, based on your knowledge as a former Chair of the Police Service Board the police could've removed these protesters simply with a court order on the same terms. Is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don't know if that's fair. I don't think that I am the person to assess that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Okay.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll make the pitch to him instead. Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. The next is the Government of Canada. And as you come up, if I can just be clear, I'm sure you know this, Mr. Migicovsky, is that if it becomes relevant, the question about salary with another witness or you -- somehow it becomes a relevant to this Commission, you can of course renew the question. I'm sure you know that, but I just want to be clear about that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Ms. Deans. I'm Brendan van Niejenhuis. I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada on this Inquiry. I'm just going to try to ask you some, hopefully, less controversial questions about your experience in your capacity as the Board Chair for this jurisdiction at the time.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Sure.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And I'm going to do so by reference to some of the documents that you've looked at already, but I'm going to focus on some particular effects that come out of them. May I ask to pull up OPB00001624? This is the February 1st Board update document, Councillor Deans, which just to situate you, February 1st was the Tuesday after the initial convoy weekend. If we could go to page 7, please. And if you can just move down a little bit, and to that paragraph that starts "Chief" there. Just to confirm, what the Chief is reporting to you already by February the 1st, a few days into this, was the international dimensions of this matter; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that this is going to have provincial, national, international consequences, and he's referring to demonstrations already being seen in the United States stemming from this one?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And he points to the fact that this is coming out of a global pandemic, and it's a very different scenario than what you saw in November of the previous year; right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go now, please, to OPB00001264. And this would be several days later, Councillor Deans. It's the February 5th meeting of the Board. And that would've occurred, am I right, on the Saturday of the second weekend?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we go to page 3, please. I think this is the initial occasion on which Chief Sloly, both in this Board meeting and elsewhere, indicates the view that there may not be a policing solution alone to the demonstration. Do you see that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we look further down the page, on page 3, to the third last paragraph, just a little further down. Thank you. It's that paragraph that starts, "In the medium term" there. Do you see that there's an indication that "The Service", in the second sentence, is highlighting: "...the need for additional legal supports in...the short and medium term, [and is] requesting assistance to find uncharted legal territory."
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you appreciated that you were being informed that the Criminal Code powers, the Highway Traffic Act, and the City of Ottawa by-laws were somewhat limiting in respect of their application to the trucker convoy?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If you could just go over the page to page 4, in the third paragraph. The Service pointed out to you and the rest of the Board, did it, that there was an: "...ability of the demonstration organizers to spread a narrative via social media..." Yes?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that this was connected to the need for: "...additional legal resources to advocate for legislative changes that would provide for increased powers of enforcement in these kinds of situations." Fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Fair.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And did you take that as a suggestion that existing legal authorities at the time were, at least in the view of the Service, not adequate to deal with the situation already by that second weekend?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I took that they believed there was a possibility that through legislative changes we could create a better situation.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we go to OPB00001647. This is the continuation of that same meeting, but the in-camera portion of it. And if you could to page 3 of the in-camera minutes. If you can just move down the page a little bit, and just stop there. Do you see the paragraph in which Chief Sloly is speaking and comparing the situation to that of the 2011 Stanley Cup riots in Vancouver?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And here, he characterises a distinction here in the second -- in the last two sentences. He says: "The demonstration ongoing in Ottawa consisted of thousands of people convinced that the pandemic approach has been wrong." Right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that's an approach that was taken by, not just the municipalities, but by the federal government, and of course, by provincial governments across the country.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And he suggested that: "The Service's intelligence [at that time] suggested that some participants, [for them] being arrested, injured or even being killed was viewed as achieving a level of martyrdom rather than a deterrent."
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
He said that.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Was that a serious concern when the Board heard that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I think all of this was taken seriously by the Board, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to COM00000641. This is an article from the CBC website that appeared on February the 5th, and I take it this was the same -- oh, that would be the same date as that Board meeting, so probably prior to that meeting; is that fair?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we could go to -- I think it's the second page, just continue on downwards. I'm looking for a quote from yourself, Councillor Dean, so if you could just keep going down the page? Maybe a bit further? Okay. So just at the top of the next page, which is page 4, you see you're quoted there as saying, "The City is under siege"?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And looking for a concrete plan?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is how I felt.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Could you go to the top of the next page? You are quoted here, Councillor Deans, as saying: "People can't go to work or open their businesses. They can't sleep, walk, shop, go to medical appointments, or enjoy their neighbourhood. This group is a threat to democracy. What we're seeing is bigger than just a City of Ottawa problem. This is a nationwide insurrection. This is madness." Is that a fair attribution of your comments?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That is exactly what I said.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And is that how you viewed things that second weekend already?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It is.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to -- well, I don’t need the document, I just want to bookmark the timing. Two days later, on February the 7th, which would be the Monday after the second weekend, you co-signed a letter with Mayor Watson to the prime minister and to Minister Mendicino, right ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- requesting more resources from the federal government?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that same Monday, February the 7th, you sent a similar letter or you signed a signed a similar letter with the mayor that was sent to the premier as well as to Solicitor General Jones, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And we've seen those before, so we won't go back to them. Could we now go to OTT00006610? This will be the minutes of the council meeting, the special council meeting that was convened on the Monday evening of the 7th?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Or afternoon, rather. And if I could ask that we turn to page 10, it'll be the bottom of the page, a motion at the bottom of the page, and just so you can see the mover and seconder there, but go to the top of page 11 and you'll see the output. This is the motion that asked the Government of Canada to take responsibility for policing, in effect, in the Parliamentary precinct, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you were in favour of that motion?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you go then to page 17 of the same document, and carry down the page, you'll see this motion to move by Councillor Meehan and Councillor McKenney referring to the federal Emergencies Act and resolving that the City should enter into discussions with the Minister of Public Safety to see whether the Emergencies Act could be invoked, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that’s because you saw the need already for additional legal measures from what the service had been telling you to date?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you voted in favour, did you, of this motion?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I did.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
February 8th was the Tuesday. If we could go to OTT00005837? And I don’t need to spend a lot of time on this, but this is a note from Chief Sloly the next morning -- or sorry, the next evening, rather, and he's writing in reference to that motion, the first motion we'd looked at with respect to the RCMP assuming jurisdiction over the precinct.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Right. And if you just scroll down the page for -- in fairness to you, do you recall Chief Sloly providing you this information to remind you? I'm sure you are familiar with it already, but that under the Ontario Police Services Act, the RCMP is not defined as a police service, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And for that reason, some of these steps that we've spoken about earlier -- you've spoken about earlier, had to be taken, such as having each of the RCMP officers formally sworn in in groups?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And another one of the steps that had to occur was the signing of a formal memorandum of agreement to define their roles, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And I believe you signed that on February the 8th as well, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we could go to OPB00000858? This is on February 10th. It's the Wednesday now, ahead of the third weekend after the second. This appears to be an email from Julia Keast of your office?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you are one of the addressees, and it is approving a request -- if you want to scroll down the page -- it reflects you approving a request to delegate the authority to swear in up to 400 members of the RCMP, correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And the last thing that would need to happen in that regard was the approval of the Solicitor General for those officers as well, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we could go now to OPB00001272? This will be February 11th, the minutes again of the Board meeting, and these will be the public minutes. That will be the Thursday ahead of the third weekend, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Oh, excuse me, the Friday?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Friday.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we could go to page 3, to the second-last paragraph? It was emphasized again to you by the Service, if I'm understanding this right, that there was a number of different reasons that individuals were demonstrating and no one particular line of thinking, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
The demonstrations had become, or continued to become a local, provincial, national, and even international issue?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And the Service was concerned about money and supports coming in from other countries, including the U.S.?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we could go to page 4, in the third-last paragraph? There, you'll see the note that the Service had been in conversation regarding the mitigation of risks associated with counter-protest. Do you see that?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
No.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
It's ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Oh, right. Okay, yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And what that’s referring to, if I understand right, is the fact that Ottawa residents by now were awfully tired, angry, and frustrated, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Very.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And there was a real concern that citizens would start to take matters into their own hands in a fashion that could lead to real violence, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
There was growing evidence of that.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And that was a concern to you and your colleagues on the Board?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It was.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Lastly -- and I see I'm almost out of time so I'll wrap this up very quickly -- if we could just go to the in-camera minuutes for one item, it's OPB00001648, and to the top of page 4? Thank you. And I just want to point out that again, here you're informed by the Service in-camera that national and international security blind spots were being pointed to, and due to the cumulative blind spots, the OPS lacked the capacity to address the unfolding situation, right?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Did that refer, in part or a substantial part to the awareness of the organization of the convoy online and the impact of social media on those who'd come in to occupy Ottawa?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I believe it did.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROB KITTREDGE
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Just caught a little off guard there. And for the sake of the sign language interpreters, who I'm sure I tortured a little bit yesterday, I'll try and go a little more slowly today. Good afternoon, Councillor Deans. I'm Rob Kitteredge. I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom. As someone who was caught up in, as you put it, what happened in Toronto during the G20, and in some of the more egregious events addressed in the Morden Report, I was encouraged to hear that you did your best to prevent similar mistakes in overreach in Ottawa. And in furtherance of that goal, you felt that you and the OPSB might have been able to intervene to help with OPS requests for assistance from other police forces or various levels of government; is that correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You understood the OPS's expressed need for "additional resources" to mean that they needed additional police officers; correct?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes. After that February 5th meeting when Chief Sloly outlined his resource requirement, not all 1800 were uniformed officers; some were civilian, but he made that clear at that time.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But it was essentially people on the ground that was meant by resources?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yes, skilled resources, yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did he use the word “resources” to refer to anything other than people on the ground?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
You mean like weapons or what are you ---
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, like -- I guess I’m just getting at the point that we’ve heard the word “resources” a lot today and I just want to understand what that means.
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
Yeah, I think by and large it means skilled, trained people.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. While we’ve heard that the Criminal Code, existing By-laws, et cetera may have been somewhat limiting, the OPS didn’t express to you any specific need for any specific additional legislated powers; did they?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I do not believe so.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And your understanding was that while legislative change may have been useful to the police, it wasn’t required, strictly-speaking, is that a fair characterization?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
I don’t know the answer to that question. I mean it may well be required and it might be something that’s very useful, but in the moment it probably wasn’t going to happen.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Do you feel that OPS was making effective use of the resources, personnel and equipment that they had available to them at all times during the protest?
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
It’s probably a question much better put to Chief Sloly, because as we’ve made pretty clear, I’m not involved in the day-to-day operations.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. As a citizen of Otta