Ewa Krajewska
Ewa Krajewska spoke 393 times across 11 days of testimony.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes, good afternoon, Commissioner.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m not sure if you can see me. My name is Ewa Kajewska and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Perfect, thank you.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Superintendent, when you took as -- you took over as event commander on February 10th; that’s what I understand from your evidence today?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And your task was to prepare an operational plan?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And at that time, between February 10th and February 13th when you were preparing the operational plan, was it your assessment that the OPS had the necessary legal tools and powers to execute that operational plan?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And it was not your assessment that you required any additional legal tools or any additional legal powers?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And at no time prior to February 14th did you communicate to any of your superiors that you required additional legal tools or legal powers?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you. Those are all my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Mr. Barber. I’m going to be asking you questions via Zoom. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
My questions are going to focus on the impact of the orders freezing the bank accounts. So I understand from your earlier evidence that your bank accounts were frozen during the course of -- or after the protest. Is that fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can you just please specify for me, was it your personal account that was frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And so let me just break that down. The fuel cards for your drivers, are those business credit cards?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And are those linked to your corporate account, then?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so when your corporate account was frozen, then the fuel cards were also inoperative?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that they were frozen on the Sunday, so is that -- would that be the Sunday, the 20th of February?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so with respect to when your accounts were frozen, were they frozen before or after you were arrested?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And you were informed that they were frozen. With respect to your corporate account, your CIBC corporate account, it was someone at CIBC who informed you that they were frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was only after the fact when you came home that you learned that it had been frozen by a letter from CIBC or by a telephone call?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And your T-D bank account, how did you learn -- the personal one, how did you learn that that was frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that you tried to obtain information from T-D as to why it was frozen and why it took so long to reopen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you did not get -- did you get a satisfactory answer?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was the first name and phone number that you received, it was someone from T-D Bank?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And did you ever receive any correspondence from the RCMP or the OPS with respect to the freezing of your bank accounts?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And can you speak to me first about the impact of the freezing of your corporate bank account, what impact did it have on your business? You mentioned the cancellation of the fuel cards. Can you elaborate on that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And with ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, sir. With respect to the fuel cards, for how long were your drivers not able to use the fuel cards to supply the vehicles?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m sure everybody does. And sir, with respect to your personal bank account, you said that -- how did that impact? Can you provide a little bit more elaboration on how it impacted you? You said that you had to use cash. Can you elaborate what you mean by that or how it impacted you to have your personal bank account frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, sir. Those are all my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Oui. Bonjour, Monsieur Charland. Mon nom est Ewa Krajewska, je ne sais pas si vous me voyez sur l’écran ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Oui. Donc je vais vous poser mes questions par Zoom. Je suis avocate pour l’Association canadienne des libertés civiles.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Monsieur Charland, je vais vous poser des questions à propos des restrictions qui ont été mises sur vos comptes bancaires.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Je comprends qu’en chef, vous avez dit que vos comptes bancaires à la Banque Nationale, il y avait des restrictions qui étaient mises sur eux, c’est correct ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous aviez des comptes bancaires personnels et corporatifs avec la Banque Nationale ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que les deux comptes ont reçu des restrictions ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Seulement votre compte bancaire personnel.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
C’est là où vous gériez l’argent des Farfadaas, c’est ça ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et quand… c’était quand que ce compte a reçu des restrictions ? Est-ce que vous avez la date ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Vous pensez que c’était le 4 février.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des restrictions supplémentaires après le 14 février ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
OK. Et avant que vous… et cette lettre que vous avez reçue en avril, c’était une lettre de la Banque Nationale, oui ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des communications avant cette lettre de la Banque Nationale à propos de votre compte ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des communications à propos de votre compte, de la Gendarmerie Royale Canadienne ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des informations à propos de votre compte, du Centre d’analyse des opérations et déclarations financières du Canada ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous connaissez, autre que la lettre que vous avez reçue de la Banque Nationale, les causes pourquoi votre compte a été… a reçu des restrictions ?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et…
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et, je comprends qu’aujourd’hui vous n’avez pas de compte avec la Banque Nationale et que vous avez dû ouvrir un compte avec une autre Banque, ou une autre caisse populaire.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Charland. Ce sont toutes mes questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening. I'm going to be asking my questions via Zoom. Can you see me?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Perfect. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I am counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. And I just have a few questions with respect to the freezing of your bank accounts. I know you already spoke about this in the examination conducted by Commission Counsel. And I understand from that evidence that you learned from a phone call you received from RBC that your bank accounts were frozen on February 17th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, I see. So the telephone call that you received on that day was from a police officer that your bank accounts were frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And do you know whether that police officer was a police officer of the Ottawa Police Service, the RCMP, or the OPP?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the police officer told you that your bank accounts could be unfrozen once you informed them that you left Ottawa; is that fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And did you check at the time that your bank accounts had, in fact, been frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So your husband called you to let you know that he was not able to access your joint bank accounts?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So they claimed to be from the Royal Bank, but you believed that they were a police officer? Am I getting that right?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You called the number afterwards?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
A few -- oh, so they left you a telephone number to call back at?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you called them back later, and then how did they identify themselves when you called back later?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
No. I can't ask you to try that now. I'm just asking you, how do you know that when you called back, like, a few months later, they were a police officer?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
When you spoke to them a few months later?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was (audio skip) corporate voicemail where the person would answer, "I'm so-and- so of the Royal Bank of Canada at this branch"?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And you said that your bank accounts were frozen for a period of time, but you said you don’t recall for how long because your husband manages the banking; is that fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And in terms of the length of the problem, do you know -- can you provide your best estimate of whether your bank accounts were frozen for a period of days or whether it was a period of weeks after February 17th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And do you know that because by March 1st you had a mortgage payment due that you weren’t able to make?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so can you just elaborate for me how on a person basis the freezing of the bank accounts affected you with respect to your personal bank accounts, other than the payment of your mortgage?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So if I can summarize, your access to the joint bank account that you have with your husband is essential to manage your household finances because of the time that you spend away from home?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the only bank account that you had access to was the personal bank account of your husband's that was not frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Can you -- I asked you about your experience personally with respect to the freezing of your personal bank account.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Yeah, so this is my -- going to be my last question, and I apologize, Commissioner. Can you just elaborate on how it affected your business to have your business account frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Ewa Krajewska, for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Mr. Wilson, just briefly, were you still on the ground in Ottawa when the financial institution freezing order started to come into effect?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. I just want to ask you about the financial measures under the Emergencies Act.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Can you just -- did people come to you from the Freedom Convoy and ask you for advice with respect to the orders and relate to you how they were affecting them, and can you just provide a -- if they did, could you just provide a summary of how the orders were affecting them, if they came to you to speak to you about that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Those are all my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. Thank you, Commissioner.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Mr. Marazzo, my name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I want to ask you a few questions with respect to the Emergencies Orders. After the Emergencies -- the Federal Emergencies Act was invoked, were any of your personal or corporate bank accounts frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so these were all your personal accounts, and not just ones that you hold individually, but also ones that you hold jointly with your ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- child and your former spouse?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Mr. Marazzo, how long were your bank accounts frozen?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So until the Emergencies Act was revoked?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry; go ahead. No, no, go ahead.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And were you given any information, either from the bank or from the police, as to how you -- how your bank accounts could be reopened?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So so did you find out they were frozen because you could no longer use your ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- cards?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And were you -- and how did you find out that your bank accounts and assets were unfrozen; was it just because you were able to use them again?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Were you able to access your online banking?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you very much Mr. Marazzo. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening, Commissioner and Mr. King. My name's Ewa Krajewska on behalf of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and I don't have any questions for Mr. King. Thank you.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Mr. Freeman. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Mr. Freeman, let me just start off with respect to what is the MTO’s role in public protest or public demonstrations when they block highways or roads? Would you say that it’s typical that -- or not unusual for public demonstrations to create or inhibit traffic -- inhibit traffic?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And would it also be fair to say that you would also create signage and divert traffic as necessary in order to facilitate the demonstration?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So you would be guided by the OPP or the police of the jurisdiction to provide that assistance.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
To facilitate the protest?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And as -- would it then be also consistent -- we looked at the MTO’s plan with respect to the Freedom Convoy. My friend for the Government of Canada took you to the fact that the MTO suspended the inspections of trucks through the convoy. Was that also kind of part of facilitating the protest at the time?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. But other than with respect to direction from the OPP or police forces, the MTO would not take enforcement measures against a demonstration.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I know we’ve -- many of us have covered the CVOR issue, and if I could just go back to that again, the letter from -- the letter to Michael Keenan that you were taken to earlier, it’s clear that the enforcement under CVOR, the purpose is public safety; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And to sanction non- compliant safety behaviour.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And as you told my friend, Ms. Tardif, your concern or the MTO’s concern about using the CVOR was that you did not want it to be used to -- in relation to civil disobedience.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was there also a concern of setting a precedent to use the CVOR as a method of enforcement against civil disobedience?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was there also concern that you would delegitimize the process that exists with respect to the CVOR and how it’s understood by both the government and industry participants?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m just going through my notes because a lot of -- some of these issues have already been covered. And my friend for the Government of Canada took you to the fact that the Ontario Declaration of Emergency was declared on February 11th, 2022, but the letters with respect to the, I’ll call it the CVOR enforcement under the EMPCA, were not issued until February 17th. And you’ve stated that that was an OPP decision as to when to issue those letters, when to issue those warnings?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
It was not an MTO decision?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Mr. Freeman, did you have input to Minister Mulroney into what the MTO would be requesting under the EMPCA? Did you provide input as to what Cabinet should consider before the EMPCA was relied upon?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can you provide just kind of an outline of the options that you provided to your Minister and to the Solicitor General?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So amendments to the -- amendments that could be done to the HTA to increase fines or increase ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- enforcement?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Commissioner, those are all my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening, Mr. Di Tommaso. My name is Ewa Krajewska. I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Let me pick up from a point that my friend was just speaking to you about. Civilian oversight of the police. I understand from your testimony, Mr. Di Tommaso, that you’re familiar of the Morden Report arising after the G20?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that’s built upon the Ipperwash Inquiry and previously from the McDonald Commission?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, two other reports that are relevant to the issue of civilian oversight are the report after the Ipperwash Inquiry and the McDonald Commission?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’ll stick to the Morden Report then. And, sir, as my friend told you, the independence of the police is quintessential with respect to criminal investigation; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Because we do not want -- it would be an infringement of the rule of law to have politicians direct criminal investigation?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But with respect to operational decisions, I’d suggest to you that civilian oversight is a little bit more nuanced from the Morden Report? And on the first point, that there is a role for civilian oversight with respect to the receipt of information with respect to operational decisions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Commissioner Carrique was discharging that duty by supplying you with information with respect to his operational decisions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And similarly, it is possible and it is possible for civilian oversight to provide opinions and make suggestions with respect to operational decisions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that is the Morden Report’s qualification to section 31(4) of the Police Act; correct? That’s its interpretation of that section?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
All right. And that it’s especially important to provide those suggestions or opinions on operational plans to ensure that they’re consistent with legal requirements and community norms and values?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, sir. Now, sir, we’ve reviewed a number of your handwritten notes that arise out of the facts that we’re reviewing with this Commission, and I just want to get a sense of your note taking practice. Do you essentially take notes of all of your telephone calls and meetings?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. So this is a selection of notes that you had arising from these events?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you. And so if you had been providing reports to the Solicitor General, there may not be notes of those reports, even if you -- there may not be notes of those, even though you provided those reports?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was -- what was your practice with reporting to the Solicitor General with respect to these events? Would you have been -- at the beginning of these events, would you have -- was she asking you to report to her daily on the events?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
By text message?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And would she schedule calls with you if she had follows up or questions with Commissioner Carrique’s reports?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you would also have meetings with her in person and I assume by telephone?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But you would not necessarily take notes of those discussions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And if I understand your evidence, at the beginning of these events, your view -- your characterization of them was that this was a police issue that required the correct deployment of police resources?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you did not see this as necessarily a political issue?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
The art of the possible, as you ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
As you stated. Okay. And would it be fair -- now, you had a number of discussions with Deputy Minister Stewart at the federal level; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And those were kind of at the bureaucracy level of discussions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And is it fair to say that you got the sense from him that the federal political level was frustrated that there was not more engagement from the Ontario Provincial level?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And in my review of the documents, it appears that the political engagement from Ontario appeared to shift around February 9th? Would that be fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So when do you feel like the Provincial Government became more involved at a political level? At what point in time?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Would you -- you may not be aware, but would you be aware that, for example, Minister Alghabra on Transportation was not able to book telephone calls with Minister Mulroney?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the reason that I suggest that February 9th may be a pivot point is that that is when Premier Ford has a telephone call with Minister Mendicino, where Premier Ford suggests that he may -- he’s spoken to the Chief Medical Officer of Health and he may take down vaccine passports. Were you aware of that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And you’d agree with me that at least by February 10th, the Solicitor General had informed you that there was consideration of invoking the Ontario Emergencies Act, the EMPCA.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And would it be fair to say that the political level in Ontario became more engaged when the Windsor bridge, the Ambassador Bridge was blocked, and it was causing significant economic repercussions with respect to manufacturing and trade?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so with respect to the emergencies orders, if I can ask the Registrar to please pull up doc ID ONT00005155? So that's the last page of this document. So these are your notes from February 10th, 2022. And on the last page of these, which is page -- sorry, page 19, not 20, sorry, there's a star and, "Solicitor General is lead department on this issue. Emergency at our borders. Line waiting for direction. Thinking about EO. List of seven. Not doing anything until more direction." (As read) What does list of seven -- is that list of seven or am I misreading that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. But would it be fair that as at February 10th, your Ministry was being tasked with considering what potential orders you think should be made under the EMPCA?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And so you're familiar with the legal requirements to invoke the EMPCA?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you'd agree that any orders that are made under the EMPCA must be necessary and essential in the circumstances?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And they have to be tailored to be Charter compliant as well?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so they have to be the least restrictive possible in terms of the -- in terms of their impact on Charter rights of Ontarians?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that was something that you considered, and your Ministry considered in drafting the EMPCA orders that were enacted?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And, sir, just going back, in January of 2022, if we go back, there were significant provincial mandates under the Reopening Ontario Act that were in place in January 2022 as a result of the Omicron wave. You remember that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Ontario had been placed back into kind of stage two of the Reopening Act at that time?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Let me make it simple, under the Reopening Act, there were three stages of opening that were available for the Cabinet to place the various health units in, depending on the severity of the pandemic in that health unit.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. If I can just ask you, under the Reopening Ontario Act, some of the measures that were put in place included vaccine passports?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Mask mandates?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Capacity limits?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
School closures?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you -- I understand from your evidence that despite what the note says from February 6th in response to Ms. Jody Thomas and the -- at the NSIA, that you understood that some of the protests that were happening in both Ottawa and Windsor related not just to the federal vaccine mandate but to public health measures much more generally?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, sir. Those are all my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. Good afternoon, Commissioner Lucki, and Deputy Commissioner Duheme. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I am counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I'd like to start off first with respect to the consultation that the Chief of Staff of the Public Safety Minister, Mendicino, did with you, Commissioner, with respect to your requests for -- under the Emergencies Act. And this is document PB.NSC.CAN.00003256. It was up earlier where he emailed you and asked you what the RCMP may request, and you provided a list. And I just -- the document is up for your reference, but I just want to confirm that many of the requests that you made were restrictions on the right to public assembly; correct? That was kind of the -- those were the main suggestions that you were asking for Cabinet to consider?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
That's correct, you're right. You also asked for tow trucks, and you also asked for cell phone disruption. And my understanding is that other than the cell phone disruption question all the others were put into place under the emergencies orders. Would that be fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you understood that when you were making these suggestions or providing this advice that the declaration of a state of emergency does not suspend the operation of the Charter; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you understood that to the extent that any of these suggestions would limit any Charter rights, those limits had to be carefully tailored and not disproportionate to the objective of the measures?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Commissioner Lucki, you did not provide or the RCMP did not provide any suggestions with respect to the economic measures that were enacted?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So you may have been also consulted with respect to the economic measures that were enacted as well?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And if I take you to the economic measures that were enacted and their implementation, I understand that Mr. Denis Beaudoin was kind of the person at the RCMP that took the lead on that issue?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And we have his notes at PB.NSC.CAN.00008065. Mr. Registrar, I'm sorry, if I could ask you to put that up on the screen, and I can repeat it if necessary. His notes -- and I'm going to just go a little bit back in time and go to a note on page 3 of this document. This is Mr. Beaudoin's notes. And this is notes from a call on page 3. This is before the declaration of the emergency, February 9th, 2022, "Call with finance". First bullet: "They want to enact law to be able seize money from protesters. Looking at privacy law." Second bullet: "We explained that right now monitoring FAI; NS, MC, POS is looking at specific on the ground offences. They ask if law was made to be able to share info of the banks. I explained that FI need an order to execute seizing assets. Told me RCMP should not be the only law enforcement body with new legislative power." Are you familiar with Mr. Beaudoin's consultations with the Ministry of Finance?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And -- but you agree with Mr. Beaudoin's to Finance at the time that the types of powers that Finance was requesting required court orders or court orders for them to exercise those types of powers, as at February 9th, 2022?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Well, I think that's a legal question, but ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- at this time, to seize or -- I think even if -- I would suggest even to freeze assets, even to freeze assets the RCMP or the bank would need a court order to do that.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And once the economic measures were implemented after the declaration of the emergency you'd agree that the RCMP became the central focal point for financial institutions and for -- as a conduit of information to financial institutions with respect to information about designated persons?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And it was Mr. Denis Beaudoin and Kelly Hughes at the RCMP who were the primary contact persons with financial institutions to provide them with information?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And the RCMP, as you said, Deputy Commissioner, the RCMP would collect information, including names, license plate numbers, and other information from both OPS and OPP and provide that information to financial institutions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And have you reviewed the Canadian Banking Association’s witness statement ahead of this hearing?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. The Canadian Banking witness statement provides that it was the RCMP who clarified that the entities contained on the lists were designated persons under the Emergency Measures order. Are you -- do you have any reason to disagree with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the financial institutions also had an obligation to report back to the RCMP what financial instruments they froze; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Well you can take it from me. It’s written in the order that they either had to report to the RCMP or CSIS, but it ended up being that they reported to the RCMP.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And if I -- I’ll take you to an example of a reporting letter from the Toronto Dominion Bank. This is PB.NSC.CAN.00008748. And this reporting letter is to CPL, I guess is that corporal or captain Hughes? Dated February 18th, 2022. Sorry, we’re just waiting for it to come up on the screen. Mr. Registrar, do you need me to -- oh, no, we’ve got it.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Corporal. Thank you very much. And if we scroll down, they’re reporting pursuant to the order and they list by name and the type of accounts they froze. And if we go to the -- if you just look at the types of accounts, they would freeze both chequing accounts, savings accounts, if you go to the second page, joint accounts, business accounts, RSP accounts, and key lock accounts of any person who was found to be a designated person. And so I just -- I want to ask you, are you aware that financial institutions asked the RCMP whether they could -- sorry, financial institutions expressed concern to the RCMP about the breadth of the orders? Were you aware of that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And -- okay. Well you understood that Mr. Beaudin and Ms. Hughes held multiple calls with representatives from financial institutions to explain to them how the orders would operate and to answer any questions they may have?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And the -- based on the calls, and the notes of those calls have been produced in these proceedings, the financial institutions questioned whether the freezing should apply to joint accounts. They asked whether there should be a threshold to act, i.e., whether, you know, if someone had a de minimis amount in their account. They asked whether this applied to donations. And I think, were you aware that they asked about the question of whether it applied to donations and the RCMP said that they should not be pursuing donations?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you’re aware that the order arguably also applied to credit unions and insurance companies?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that the RCMP exercised its discretion not to provide information to insurance companies?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And the primary purpose of these financial measures was used to disrupt and -- as a method to disrupt and persuade people to leave Ottawa? Is that how the RCMP used this -- these measures?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And pivoting now, Deputy Commissioner Duheme, if I can take you back to the notes, your personal notes from the Freedom Convoy? This is PB.NSC.CAN.00008073. If we can go to page 58 of this document? This is a note from February 12th, so this is before the invocation of the Emergencies Act. If you scroll down, there’s a note at 10:19 a.m. There’s a note -- Deputy Commissioner, sorry, if you could just read it out so that I don’t mistake your handwriting?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
All right. And then sorry, the next bullet? Separate?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Can you -- are you able to provide any context with respect to this note? Who was ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- communicating to you? Who -- first, let’s start with who was communicating to you that there was enormous frustration with law enforcement? Or is this your own observation?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so, sorry, you said PCO. You mean the Privy Council Office reached out to Commissioner Lucki or to Chief Sloly?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So you were expressing -- you were noting concern in your notes that certain members of the federal public service may have been crossing the line between church and state -- or well, sorry -- state and police with respect to these issues?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you. And my last question is to Commissioner Lucki. Commissioner, you mentioned in your examination in-chief by Commission counsel, you were taken to the February 13th IRG meeting. And I understand from the minutes of that meeting that you attended the February 13th IRG meeting, correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you had speaking notes for that meeting that included a statement that in your view or the RCMP's view, all available tools and legislation had not been exhausted, including charges that could have been laid under the Criminal Code, correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the IRG Group is a group of select ministers brought together by the prime minister to help with the coordination of an incident that is occurring, whatever it may be, correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Relevant with relative expertise to the issue, correct? And Commissioner, would you -- like, the IRG has met for other incidents prior to these events, correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And would you have felt free to speak up at that -- do you feel like you would be able to raise issues at those types of meetings or is it the type of meeting where you feel you could only be called upon to speak?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that’s the Minister of Public Safety, Minister Mendicino?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so do you feel like it was important at that meeting on February 13th to inform those ministers of the fact that in your view, existing legislation had not been exhausted?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But do you feel like it would have carried weight ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Commissioner, I really appreciate the indulgence you provided with me, and this is my last question. Commissioner Lucki, do you not feel like it would have carried weight for the ministers who were considering that was their response, including potentially considering invoking the Emergencies Act to hear it directly from you?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you very much, Commissioner Lucki and Deputy Commissioner Duheme, and thank you, Commissioner Rouleau, for the indulgence.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon. My name is Ewa Krajewska and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I’d like to start off by going back to before the Emergencies Orders and the options that your Ministry was considering. And if I could ask the Registrar to pull up SSM.CAN.00003761? This is a memo that was attached to an email, Mr. Sabia, that you sent to Deputy Prime Minister Freeland on February 8th at 1700 hours, minus five. I think that’s right. Minus five. And do you recognize this memo, sir?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So these are -- in this memo, you lay out three options to the Deputy Prime Minister. The first is the use of the Bank Act. The second option is redacted on the basis of Cabinet confidence. I’ve asked my friend at the DOJ if she would reconsider that, and I appreciate that will take some time. And then the third option is moral suasion. And this is not something that you discussed with Commission Counsel this morning. I just want you to take a look at that second paragraph, where I think it was the Minister’s expectations to ask bank CEOs to remain vigilant in their review of business relationships to ensure that they’re not being used to support illegal activities. And is that one of the considerations that was given to Minister Freeland into how she should deal with this situation?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And when you talk about “support illegal activities”, you would have to define what that means in these circumstances; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I think you stated earlier today that the Declaration of Emergencies and the Orders underneath it defined what those illegal activities would be?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes, it did. Thank you. and if I can move on to the scope of the measures, and many of these questions will be to you, Mr. Sabia, and to you, Ms. Jacques. You agree that the Emergencies Measure Order prohibited any entity as defined in section 3 which covered both provincial and federal institutions from dealing with any property held by a designated person; right? That was the -- if I -- you’d agree with that characterization of ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Do you have section 3 before you? If not, I’ll pull it up. Yes. Oh no, wait. I left it at my chair. Sujit, can you help me with the SSM number?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So this is the Emergencies Measures Order, which is the financial order, and section 3 is the one that covers the institutions that -- okay. Well I have the wrong document. Okay. There is a list of institutions that are covered by the Order; correct? Those include financial institutions, ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- credit unions, insurance companies? Those cover both provincial and federal institutions; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And it prohibits those financial institutions with dealing with the property of any designated person?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And that essentially freezes their assets? The designated person’s assets?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Well freezes their ability to deal with their property held at those institutions?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I mean, I see you’re nodding.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, we need an audible. Thank you.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And it applied -- you saw that it applied to joint accounts, to registered savings accounts, and to investment accounts?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you’re aware that the Canadian Bankers Association voiced concerns to both you and the RCMP about the scope of these orders?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Do you remember any representatives from banking institutions raising concerns about the scope of the orders?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Do you remember that they asked whether it applied to joint accounts?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And your office prepared, or someone at the Department prepared a kind of ongoing and consolidated questions and answers, kind of an FAQ for banks; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, I say banks, I mean financial institutions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
This is -- if I could just pull up SSM.CAN.00000002? And I think this is the Consolidated FAQ. And there were questions about -- correct, thank you. Page number 6. Scroll down to “RCMP” please. There we go. “When we say ‘accounts’, what exactly is being referred to?” So those are the types of accounts that this would apply to; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And if we go to page 7, there were questions about whether small donations were being investigated?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And your response, or the RCMP response was that they weren’t; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But you’d agree that on the face of the Order, small donations were captured on the face of the Order? And Mr. Sabia, I think you even provided that advice to Minister Freeland at some point?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. I will just put it for reference for the record that ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct. And Ms. Jacques, I think it was you who provided answers to those questions at SSM.CAN.00000054, where Minister Freeland had questions with respect to the Order, and Mr. Sabia, you asked for responses on those questions, and Ms. Jacques, you provided the answers in red where you stipulated, this is on ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I know. I'm just going to talk while they pull it up; otherwise, I run out of time.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You will -- I would for sure give you a chance to see it.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
The question was: "And what about people who were never at the protest, but made donations?" And your response was: "As stipulated in the Order, it is possible that a person who indirectly funded the illegal protest for the benefit of a person involved in the protest had their account frozen. This would only occur if they made a donation after September [sic] 15th..." Which is, as you were saying ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- February 15th, it was not retroactive. So if you go to page 2, there is the question, the second paragraph. Do you see that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
That was the question from the Minister Freeland, and then your answer is in the less dark font.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And I think some of the financial institutions asked if they were able to exercise some humanitarian exceptions as well to the Orders. And maybe this is what you referring to as child support; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And they also asked if they could continue to process automated payments from the accounts; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the Order also applied to auto insurance; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. But the RCMP decided not to communicate with insurance companies, as they wanted to ensure that it would be safe for vehicles to leave the demonstration.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So Mr. Sabia, I just want to -- with respect to that answer, I think to me the Order did more -- the Order did -- would have allowed the RCMP to ask for that person's insurance to be cancelled, and what the RCMP did is that it did not exercise their discretion under the Order to do that. But the Order, on its face, and the insurance company could have proactively cancelled that truck driver's insurance and then it would not have been safe for that truck driver ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it's good that it did not happen, that that part of the Order was not exercised?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So in kind of economic terms, it created a microeconomic incentive?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I want to go back to the issue of what happened between the financial institutions and the RCMP. It was not just that the RCMP provided information to financial institutions, but under the Order, the financial institutions were obligated to provide reporting to either the RCMP or CSIS with respect to the freezing of accounts; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was on -- it was the financial institutions' onus to ensure that they were in compliance with the Order.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Not just when they had information, but ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct. And so -- and Ms. Jacques, when you mentioned earlier an indemnity that was provided, that indemnity was only provided to financial institutions if they complied with the Order. It did not provide an indemnity to financial institutions not to comply with the Order or not to report to the RCMP. Correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. So the financial institutions, if as you say they decided to exercise their discretion for humanitarian or other purposes, they were taking the legal risk for doing so.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Because they would receive a list of names or vehicles from the RCMP and then they would have to report back to the RCMP of all the lists of accounts that they froze, and so the RCMP could compare both lists later and decide whether the financial institution complied with its legal obligations.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But the Order provided for that information-sharing.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And then in -- and then I understand that ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But it could be -- it could have been used to decide whether there had been compliance. It could be read that way.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And in -- and I understand that your department received aggregate information of how much was frozen by financial institutions. You did not receive the specific accounts, but you received the aggregate numbers; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
From the CBA. And I want to -- so if I could take you to SSM.CAN.00000209. This is a long email chain between Deputy Prime Minister Freeland's office and the -- and your department regarding the enforcement of the Emergencies Act. And if we could go to the last page of this document, page 8. This is on February 16th, which is one day after the Order is made public. Alexandre -- Alex Lawrence, who's the Director of Communication for Deputy Prime Minister Freeland, asks for tangible figures that could be made public the next morning about how much -- about the enforcement measurements. And if you go up... I mean, I think you -- I'm not sure if you personally were in communication, but your office was in communication with the Deputy Prime Minister and to ensure that she had updated numbers of -- the number of accounts that were frozen and the quantum that was frozen, both were being provided to the Deputy Prime Minister. Correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Through Mr. Sabia?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Mr. Sabia, let me just pick up on that point that you stated, that by the 22nd, you’re aware that the RCMP had communicated to financial institutions that they should begin unfreezing certain accounts; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I’d suggest that there’s also maybe a third purpose to Mr. Lawrence’s email, which is that the Deputy Prime Minister wanted to be in a position the next morning at the press conference to inform the public that measures are being taken.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you. And this is going to be my last question, which is with respect to FINTRAC, I understand from the FINTRAC report that they did not see an elevated level of suspicious transactions, or a noticeable change in transaction levels during the period of the Freedom Convoy. And you agree with that; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
There were five.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. But I think FINTRAC’s report is more than that. Even in January, even to the leadup to the convoy, and before the emergency period, they did not see an increase in suspicious transaction reporting under the PCLMFTA?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you very much. And thank you, Commissioner, for the indulgence.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening, Clerk Surette and Madam Drouin. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I am counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. So I know we have spent a lot of time on the CSIS part of the thresholds to invoke the Emergencies Act, but with respect to section 3 of the Emergencies Act itself, there is two categories, 3(a) or 3(b). And 3(a) is that there -- that it's - - there is a: "...national emergency [that] is an urgent and critical...of a temporary nature that...seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with..." And I understand that that is the part the Government relied upon to invoke the Emergencies Act; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And those two parts, capacity and authority, I read those as authority, meaning legal authority, and legislative tools that were available to the Government. Would that be a fair reading of that? Is that how you understood that? Yes?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And capacity, to me the word capacity connotes an issue of resources; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Operational capacity. And Madam Surette and Madam Drouin, from your witness statement, I understand that leading up to February 9th and February 14th you both expressed frustration, or maybe not frustration, but frustration with the inability of the local police officers in both Ottawa and Windsor of being able to execute on their Operational Plans. Do you recall stating that in your witness statements?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
No, sorry. I will read you the part that you said. You said, "She", which I think refers to you, Madam Drouin, "She recalled losing hope that local police forces in Ottawa and Windsor were capable of executing on their Operational Plans." Is that fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And if I can take you to your witness statement, just so that you can recall, because I want to take you to another passage. This is WTS00000074.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I think Commissioner Lucki -- it says that: "Commissioner Lucki grew frustrated with the lack of action by local police agencies." And then it states... If you can go page 11, please, Mr. Registrar. Thank you: "This frustration was shared by Ms. Drouin and Ms. [Surette] who felt that existing authorities, such as municipal bylaws for instance, were simply not being used to clear the protests in Ottawa."
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. And then -- but at the same time, you appreciated that there was need to respect police independence and not -- and that neither the Public Service nor the politicians could direct police officers directly; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct. And I put that to you in the context that later on, coming up to the IRG meeting of February 13th, you were taken to this earlier, I think the evidence is that by February 13th, the RCMP, the OPS, and the OPP had signed off on a plan to remove the demonstrators from Ottawa, but I think the evidence we heard from Commissioner Lucki is that she did not state -- express that directly to the IRG on February 13th. And I think, Madam Surette, you confirmed this today, that that is not something that you heard at the IRG meeting on February 13th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. The details of the plan were not available to you, but I think I also understood that you may not have known that the RCMP and the OPP had signed off on a plan that they had confidence in could remove the protesters in Ottawa as of February 13th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. So you had -- so -- exactly. So you had, over the week leading up to February 13th, you had been briefed on various plans that you also did not actually see come to fruition. So even if you were told about a plan on February 13th, at that point part of you felt like that may -- as you said earlier today, that was one factor, but maybe not a determinative factor in terms of whether to invoke the EA or not, just based on what had been happening for that week.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I’m not sure, I think you mentioned earlier that -- I think Commissioner Lucki confirmed this, the IRG was a platform where people were at liberty to speak up, they were not -- they did not need to feel called upon before they could share their views with the other members of the IRG? And that’s fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Madam Charette, you mentioned earlier in your testimony that you appreciate that there were aspects of the demonstration that were lawful and that there were aspects of the demonstrations that were unlawful, and you were careful to make that distinction?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But once the Emergency Act was invoked and there were restrictions placed on public assembly, ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- including geographical restrictions, that demonstration, by definition, became unlawful. Would you agree with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And therefore the ability for those protestors or demonstrators to voice their political views against mandates or other public policy options became much more limited or would have to have been provided in a different locale?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so there was not consideration given to giving them a space to continue to protest at the seat of Parliament in Ottawa?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can I -- oh, sorry.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, yes.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. Let me -- I have two more questions. One is a bit technical, and I hope you can educate me on this, Madam Charette. Your decision memo to the Prime Minister, does that end up forming part of the record of what goes before the Governor in Council? Does that form part of that record?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
It does not. So that is only -- that is a document that only goes to the Prime Minister? It does not go to Cabinet and it does not form part of the record before the Governor in Council?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the last ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
By a different decision maker. Yes. Thank you. And you both mentioned the safe guards that exist within the Act once the Emergency Act is invoked, including the Parliamentary process, this Commission, the fact that it has to be time limited. But I think you’d also agree that there are ex-anti thresholds, there are safeguards in the Act that the thresholds that need to be met that are also very important in order to ensure that we only invoke the Emergencies Act in exceptional circumstances? You’d agree with that as well?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you very much. Thank you, Commissioner.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, I’m trying to get -- there we go. I was trying to get my video to work. I don’t know if you can see me, Minister Anand?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Perfect. Good afternoon, Minister. My name is Ewa Krajewska and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. And I doubt I’m going to take the entire time that I’ve been allotted to ask you questions this evening. Minister Anand, my first question really relates to going back to your personal experience of the demonstrations in Ottawa. I understand that you weren’t in Ottawa the first weekend of the demonstrations; correct? You were away?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And would it be fair to say that the crisis that was happening in Ottawa, this was not just something that you were consuming in the media or through social media, but it was also something that you and your staff were experiencing personally in Ottawa? Would that be fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I think -- I’m not sure if you watched Minister Lametti’s earlier examination, but he was taken to some text messages that he exchanged with you earlier today. Did you have a chance to see that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And I think the text message that you exchanged with him was that either you or him allowed your driver to take some of your staff home during some of the demonstrations; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I think that was the case for Minister Lametti as well. He said that he decided to leave Ottawa and spend some of his time in Montreal. Do you recall that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I understand that there was also -- some of the text messages that have been produced from you were also you exchanging text messages about one of Matthew Gurney’s articles. It was entitled “Dispatch from the Ottawa Front: Sloly is telling you all he's in trouble. Who's listening?” Do you remember that article from Mr. Gurney?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that article kind of summarized that there may be a more serious threat coming from the protestors than maybe what was being reported at the time. Do you recall that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, well, you are getting to where I’m going with this, Minister Anand. And what I was trying to ask is, how do you place what you are consuming personally and in the media alongside the advice that you may be receiving from the RCMP, or CSIS, or other professional advisors? And just, before I ask you about that, just, would you agree that, kind of, the review of intelligence, the review of information is something that is best kind of understood through the lens of the experts who are providing that information?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And so, for example, if someone posts a threat on social media, it would often be -- and it got one like, it would often be helpful to hear from CSIS or the RCMP whether that is a serious threat that the government should take into account or whether it is something that is not as significant? I mean you would normally rely on expert advice as to how to contextualize that type of information?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And in terms of the IRG meetings and the cabinet meetings, I assume, based on what you’ve said, that the information that you would have received from both the RCMP and CSIS would have significantly informed your own decision-making process at those table?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, but with respect to the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act and the Governor-in- Council’s decision, you would have been part of that decision- making process both at the IRG and cabinet; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And at those tables, you would have received information and advice from the RCMP and CSIS as well?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And that -- I wasn’t suggesting that they were reporting to you directly, but when they are speaking at either the IRG or the cabinet meetings, you are listening to that advice as part of -- and you are a decision-maker at those tables; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, so I think you agree with my question that you would have been listening to their advice and any other advice that you would have received at those tables as part of your decision-making process.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Minister. Those are all my questions.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Minister Freeland. My name is Ewa Krajewska. I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Minister Freeland, I’d like to start off with going back to your testimony in-chief with respect to the Ambassador Bridge. If I understand your testimony correctly, you stated that the blockage of the Ambassador Bridge escalated matters, in your mind, significantly. That’s fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Maybe you can tell me that later.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Your exchange with Ms. Chaudhury.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And precisely the words you just used now, it was, at least at that point, if not earlier, that to your mind, the blockades and the demonstrations became illegal?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said because it had phonetically exponential harm to the Canadian economy?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. And that’s when you started looking at the Bank Act and the PCLMFTA as potential -- using measures under that legislation to stop those demonstrations?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I didn’t -- that was not the purpose of my question, that ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- it was only about the Ambassador Bridge. I understand your evidence that the blockades, generally, had a significant economic impact on Canada that you were concerned about; that's fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m not trying to make this controversial or to trap you. I'm just ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- I'm just trying to establish this to move on to my next point.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yeah.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yeah.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And -- exactly. So you were concerned that this economic disruption was painting Canada as politically unstable, not a place that is safe to invest for, and potentially a Banana Republic, which by definition is an unstable country; that's fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
No, it's not ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Now, Minister Freeland, you can appreciate that from the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, our concern is that the Emergencies Act should not be used to quash political dissent. That's -- you understand that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And you -- and then so I think you would also agree that the Emergencies Act should not be used because demonstrators are disagreeing with government policy. I think that's a very low threshold view that I'm putting to you.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I think you also know, in your life both as a journalist and as a Minister, that on occasion, the right to freedom of assembly and freedom of expression includes actions that are of civil disobedience?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And -- exactly. And civil disobedience will, on occasion, also involve serious economic disruption, and I'll give you a few examples. A general strike is a form of civil disobedience that causes economic disruption; you'd agree with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And sometimes blockades by Indigenous people cause economic harm; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And sometimes occupations like Occupy Wall Street or Occupy Toronto may cause economic harm?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Maybe I can take you to an example closer to home for me. When Solidarity had a general strike in Poland and blocked the ports, western democracies applauded that action. That was -- economic disruption was viewed as a legitimate form of political protest at that time.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yeah. You know, coming from the Eastern Block, it was going to happen.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Minister Freeland, I just ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I just -- I do want to raise a concern. I'm assuming you're not saying that democracy only operates at the time of casting our ballot. Obviously, I think you acknowledge that we are able to protest in between those times. So even after you were democratically elected, people could protest your government's policies; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And, Minister Freeland, I'd like to just take you to -- you started your comments this morning as well with the bigger geopolitical issues here between President Putin trying to demonstrate that his way of dictatorship is preferrable to western democracies. And one -- you know, I think you can appreciate that there have been countries in the world that have said you should invest in us because we are politically stable. We do not have general strikes. We do not tolerate dissent. And I want to end on this, surely you agree that in Canada, which is a democracy, the right to protest, the right to demonstration must be sedulously protected and that economic security does not trump those rights?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I know. I just -- because I'm running out of time, so it's ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- all going in.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Minister Freeland, my last one; you mentioned at some point that it would have been one thing for the protesters to stand with a placard at the War Museum and protest; you mentioned that today in testimony with me.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m sorry; I’m thinking -- I’m thinking of a different Ottawa monument. But you agree that public assembly and the right to protest goes beyond simply me standing on a green lawn in front of a government building; that it does encompass more than that, and that Canada should protect that to be a vibrant democracy?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Commissioner Rouleau.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Prime Minister. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Prime Minister, let’s just -- I did want to start off with a quick -- the quick chronology leading up to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. On February 13th, you meet with the IRG around 4:00 p.m.; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And then you meet with Cabinet the evening of the 13th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And at that time, Cabinet delegates to you the ultimate decision to invoke the Emergencies Act, and Clerk Charette characterized this as, “Left it at referendum to the Prime Minister”; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you consult with your Caucus the morning of the 14th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And then with the First Ministers, the morning of ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, that’s fine. And then you consult with the First Ministers, also the morning of the 14th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You speak to Mr. Jagmeet Singh and the leader of the Opposition, Ms. Bergen, that same day, and you announce the invocation of the EA at a 4:30 press conference that afternoon; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct. And so the Emergencies Act is invoked on February 14th, and then the measures that are put in place under the Emergencies Act are enacted on February 15th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And those -- if I can put them as two buckets, the two buckets of measures that are invoked on the 15th, the first are -- there will -- there’s now a prohibition on public assembly that may lead to a breach of the peace; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the second are various economish [sic] measures that include the freezing of accounts of anyone who is involved in that public assembly that may lead to a breach of the peace; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And now going -- going back a little bit, we talk -- you spoke briefly about Windsor. The blockade at the Ambassador Bridge, that was a significant event that was one of the events that lead to the invocation to the Emergencies Act; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
It was one of many. And you understand that the police, both the Windsor Police Service and the OPP, started to clear that block starting on February 12th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that continued on February 13th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I believe WPS, Windsor Police Service, tweeted that the Windsor Ambassador Bridge was cleared at 01200 on February 14th?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Now, with respect to Coutts, that was another blockade of a border that was causing you and the government a significant concern; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you were informed by Premier Kenney on February 14th in the morning that the RCMP had started to make arrests the night before; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that, in his words, the situation has been secured, and they will now proceed with broader arrests and secure the border; do you remember that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And in Alberta -- Alberta is one of the provinces that had in place, or has in place, a critical infrastructure legislation that protects critical infrastructure from blockades, including highways; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Now Ottawa. Ottawa -- the Ottawa demonstrations and the blockades, they don’t get removed until later in the week of February 15th; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And for the purpose of that operation, the RCMP, the OPP, and the OPS, they form a joint command.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And, Prime Minister, you agree that the Emergencies Act and the Orders enacted under the Emergencies Act -- there was nothing in those Order that created the joint command?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right, that ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
It ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct. And it didn’t -- it skipped -- it did away with the administrative process that was taking sometime of having the RCMP enforce ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- local bylaws?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But the Joint Command, in and of itself, that was something that the police could have created and could have done without the invocation of the Emergencies Act.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And we heard evidence from Commissioner Lucki of the RCMP that she had signed off on a plan to enforce and remove the protesters in Ottawa on February 13th, that she had confidence in it. She and the OPP and the OPS had confidence in. Did you hear that testimony?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, you disagree with that.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And is this a plan that you saw or that you were just spoken to about?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And were you spoken to about it by Commissioner Lucki or by Minister Mendicino?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You don't remember. But as of February 13th, your impression was that the plan that was in place at that time was not one that you or the RCMP had confidence in?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. All right. I will leave it there because I think there are other parties here that understand that better than I do. Okay. So in terms of the legal tools that were available in Ottawa, we heard evidence from Superintendent Bernier, who was the Event Commander for the Ottawa Police Services. You're familiar with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. He testified that he did not communicate to anyone that he needed or the OPS needed additional tools in order to implement their plan. Did you hear that evidence?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
During this process. But at the time, you did not hear from OPS or Superintendent Bernier that the OPS required additional legal tools or legal resources?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And you spoke to that earlier with Ms. Chaudhury, that both you, the Government, and I think both Clerk Surette and Deputy Clerk Drouin all expressed the view that -- view or even frustration that the police had not been using the legal tools available to them to remove the demonstrators?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Or had not been able to use those tools?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And Prime Minister, Brenda Lucki, the Commissioner of the RCMP, also, on the 13th, she was of the view that existing legal tools had not been exhausted and she communicated this to the Chief of Staff of -- to Minister Mendicino. Were you aware of that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And Prime Minister, we talked the threshold for invoking a national emergency. You spoke about that briefly in your examination in-Chief. And you understand that the -- other than the threshold in the CSIS Act part of the test is whether the matter exceeds both the capacity and the authority of a province to deal with the matter. You understand that.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Deputy Clerk Drouin said that authority refers to legal authority, and capacity refers to operational capacity. And you would agree with that.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And when you -- I'm taking you back now to your press conference at 4:30 on the 14th. At that press conference, you specifically referred to the fact that there were serious challenges to law enforcement's ability to effectively enforce the law. You remember that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that the Emergencies Act will be used to strengthen and support law enforcement agencies at all levels of the country. Do you remember saying that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that the police will be given more tools to restore order in places where public assemblies can constitute illegal and dangerous activities.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so at that time, that was one or one of the main justifications that you stated publicly for the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that was, again, because many of your ministers and many of the people in the public service had expressed frustration with the police inability to exercise those legal tools?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so you were, in a sense, making sure -- it was almost preventative. Preventative in terms of "we remove them and we want to prevent them from relocating and restaging at another location." Would that be fair?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Prime Minister, you spoke about how you were advised that it would be impermissible for the Government to direct the police, and that was a line that you and your staff and your ministers understood very clearly. Correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You were very careful ---
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- about that.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But you'd agree that when you invoked the Emergencies Act and you very publicly stated to police "these are tools that you now have" that you are publicly signalling "this is the road we want you to walk down now, and use these tools in order to deal with these demonstrators." Do you agree with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Quebec did not invoke their own Emergencies Act; correct? They did not.
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Well, I don't think Quebec invoked their Emergencies Act for the purposes of the thing -- or for the convoy. Now, my last area of question, Prime Minister, is with respect to the CSIS Act and its integration into the Emergencies Act. I -- so you've stated under the CSIS Act when CSIS determines that they are going to use surveillance on a person they need to meet the threshold at section 2; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And that's because the surveillance of one person without other legal authority is something that is very serious and that requires a high legal threshold; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Now, I understand your evidence that for the purpose of the Emergencies Act we are dealing with a different context; yes?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
A different purpose?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And we're dealing with a different decision-maker; correct?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
But I would put to you that when invoking the Emergencies Act that threshold, the level of threshold of the security threat that must be met, cannot be any lower than it is when CSIS is proposing to surveil one person, that the threshold is no different. Do you agree with that?
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Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Prime Minister. Those are my questions.