Volume 21 (November 10, 2022)

(jump to testimony)

Volume 21 has 389 pages of testimony. 27 people spoke before the Commission, including 2 witnesses.

Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.

The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Wendy Clements.

Speakers, by number of times they spoke:

  1. Mario Di Tommaso, Deputy Solicitor General (DSG) - Solicitor General / Government of Ontario (ON-SolGen) (spoke 1033 times)
  2. Marlin Degrand, Assistant Deputy Minister (ADM) - Justice and Solicitor General / Government of Alberta (AB-JSG) (spoke 500 times)
  3. Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 436 times)
  4. Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 210 times)
  5. Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 184 times)
  6. Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 123 times)
  7. Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 116 times)
  8. Rebecca Jones, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 97 times)
  9. Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 89 times)
  10. Jennifer L. King, Counsel - City of Windsor (Win) (spoke 64 times)
  11. David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 51 times)
  12. Ewa Krajewska, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 48 times)
  13. Sujit Choudhry, Counsel - Canadian Constitution Foundation (CCF) (spoke 48 times)
  14. Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 45 times)
  15. Stephanie Bowes, Counsel - Government of Alberta (AB) (spoke 45 times)
  16. Alan Honner, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 44 times)
  17. Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 38 times)
  18. Michael J. Morris, Counsel - Government of Saskatchewan (SK) (spoke 30 times)
  19. Darrell Kloeze, Counsel - Government of Ontario (ON) (spoke 17 times)
  20. The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 17 times)
  21. Thomas McRae, Counsel - Windsor Police Service / City of Windsor (Win-WPS) (spoke 11 times)
  22. The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 10 times)
  23. Unidentified speaker (spoke 3 times)
  24. Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 2 times)
  25. Colleen McKeown, Counsel - Criminal Lawyers’ Association / Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers (CLA/CCCDL) (spoke 1 time)
  26. Jen Del Riccio, Counsel - National Police Federation (spoke 1 time)
  27. Jinan Kubursi, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 1 time)

Upon commencing on Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-03

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Good morning. Bonjour. Just before we start, I just want to give a bit of a message as to the events of yesterday. As many of you know, we had to interrupt the hearing yesterday because our senior counsel, Gabriel Poliquin, suddenly became indisposed. He was seen by medical professionals and his episode was likely nothing serious. So he’s expected to make a quick recovery after a few days of recuperation and will be back with the Commission next week. He wishes to thank all who have reached out to him with messages of support, and it’s very appreciated by him, and, of course, by the Commission. So with that brief introduction and reassurance, we can go on to the next witness.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Good morning, Commissioner. Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Commission Counsel. Our first witness today is Marlin Degrand. (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-20

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Good morning. Right up here.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-24

The Registrar (POEC)

For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

My full name is Marlin Arman Degrand. M-a-r-l-i-n; A-r-m-a-n, and the surname is D-e-g-r-a- n-d.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-01

ADM MARLIN ARMAN DEGRAND, Sworn

EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHEONHOLZ

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Good morning, Mr. Degrand.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning, sir. How are you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Good to see you again. So Mr. Degrand, you’ll recall that you met with Commission Counsel on August 30th for an interview.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Remember that? And we prepared a summary of the evidence that you provided during that interview; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So I’ll just pull up WTS00000007. So this is your witness summary, which will come up on the screen. Do you have any corrections to that witness summary this morning?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-20

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Great. And you can confirm this is the witness summary that you’ve seen; you’ve reviewed it?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Perfect. So I’ll have that entered into evidence. You also will recall that the Province of Alberta, the Government of Alberta has prepared an institutional report?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

You’ve had the chance to review that as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And I also understand that you’ve sworn an affidavit attaching and confirming the content of that institutional report?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so just for the record, the institutional report is ALB.IR.00000001, and then the affidavit is AFF.00000015.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So Mr. Degrand, I understand that you are Assistant Deputy Minister of the Public Security Division, and Director of Law Enforcement for Alberta Justice and Solicitor General; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s correct at the time that we spoke. We’ve since had a ministerial change and our department is now sort of split to Justice on one side, and I’m with the newly created Ministry of Public Safety and Emergency Services.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The role stays the same.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And you’re -- so you’re still Assistant Deputy Minister?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what was your -- can you maybe describe your responsibilities at the time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time of these events ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- I was the Assistant Deputy Minister and responsible for the coordination -- I have a number of duties as the Director of Law Enforcement. Primarily, at that time, was the coordination of law enforcement of the province. We also are responsible for oversight, research and statistical analysis, crime prevention and a number of other matters under Section 8 of our Police Act.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And who did you report to at the time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The Associate Deputy Minister, now Deputy Minister for our department, Dennis Cooley.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-20

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Fantastic. And they reported to Minister Savage; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, our Minister at the time was Minister Savage, Interim Minister.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And so my understanding is that you would -- one of your roles was to liaise with law enforcement on behalf of the government and the Solicitor General?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. Liaise and coordinate with.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Can you maybe start by providing us with a brief summary of policing services in the province?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. And very briefly, you have, of course, multiple levels of policing. The RCMP is the federal policing entity in the province, as it is anywhere in Canada. Within Alberta, we have a Police Act, which constitute -- which dictates the levels of responsibility for policing being for communities over the threshold of 5,000, they're required to have their own police force or a municipal service. They also have the option to contract with the RCMP in our province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-07

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Mr. Degrand, if I could just ask that you slow down a bit because it's all being translated, so your -- especially when you know what -- the area you tend to talk a little fast, I think.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I probably do all the time, so thank you, I will.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So certainly, there are multiple levels, as I was saying. Municipal policing is responsible in communities of over 5,000. In seven of those instances, we have municipal police services that are independent and self administered. The number of instances, 48, I believe, the communities have chosen to contract the RCMP as their contracted police service. The RCMP is also our contracted police service for the provision of provincial policing in the remainder of the province including First Nations and Métis settlements, with the exception of three communities, which have self-administered First Nations services.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-23

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so my understanding is in communities under 5,000 though, then the policing would be provided by the RCMP?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, as the provincial police service.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so that would include, for example, Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And that's -- I believe that's the K-Division of the RCMP?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

RCMP K-Division, the designation for all operations in Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-17

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Perfect. Thank you. Can you maybe describe as well, I understand the Sheriff Highway Patrol is also under your purview? Can you maybe explain their role?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. The Sheriff's Branch is a branch under my division, and it entails a number of discreet units, one of which is the Sheriff's Highway Patrol. The Sheriff's Highway Patrol works closely with the RCMP in the delivery of traffic services and traffic safety across the province. In their -- their role insofar as the border dispute at Coutts was directly in support of the RCMP's operational response, and we provided a number of our officers to the RCMP to assist in any number of areas, including traffic control and checkpoint control, under their direction and within their operations. Ordinarily, the sheriffs work collaboratively and cooperatively with the RCMP, but independently from the RCMP as a peace officer organization. They are not police officers. They have a specific mandate and specific authorities, which are quite broad. But in the case where they were providing operational support at Coutts, they were working under the command structure of the RCMP, as part of that response that was the responsibility of the police force of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-23

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So normally, they would have -- or in all cases, I guess, they would have the authority to enforce -- the Highway Traffic Act, for example, would be one of their key pieces ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- of legislation that they enforce?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

A large -- yes, that certainly is, the Traffic Safety Act, and a large number of provincial and other legislation they actually have authorities for under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act and other pieces of legislation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so maybe can you just explain a little bit more why in this case they were -- they would operate at the direction of the RCMP?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. The event at the border specifically was obviously a policing event, and police are charged with the responsibility for administering -- or for overseeing and addressing public order events and cases of, you know, breaches of the law, et cetera. In that particular case, the police force of jurisdiction being the RCMP has overall command and control of the event, and it would be improper and problematic for an independent agency such as the sheriffs to operate in an operational manner in that, or an unfortunate matter in that event, outside of the command and control of the RCMP as you could conceivably come across purposes for some of the strategies that were attempting to be embarked upon, both from a negotiation perspective or an enforcement perspective, et cetera. So you need to be coordinated and there has to be one unifying command and one command and control apparatus for the response.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 14 21-014-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. You mentioned briefly there the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act. Can you maybe explain for us what that is, what does that law do?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 14 21-014-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It is a piece of legislation, and I probably am the wrong person to give you a very detailed explanation on it, but it's -- in a sense, it allows for -- to -- allows for police in the province to have another tool in their toolbox when dealing with matters that provide intrusions to or affect the operation of critical infrastructure in the province. It's not akin to, say, the Emergency Act, which is why we're here today in the sense that there's no need for invocation. It's much like the Traffic Safety Act, the Criminal Code, or any other statute that's available as a tool to law enforcement every day, an Act that is in place in Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 14 21-014-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And is your understanding that highways are a piece of critical infrastructure under that Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. And who's able to enforce that Act? I think you already mentioned the sheriffs, both the sheriffs and the RCMP can enforce?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, any police service can in their area of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Municipal. Yes, thank you. And so what kind of function -- you've already mentioned you liaise with police. Do you play some sort of oversight function as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We do have an oversight function. We have policing standards that we developed in a collegial manner within the province with law enforcement and which we're charged with ensuring are met. We have audit programs that we are involved in and, of course, we are involved in policy development and giving advice to the government on legislative changes that may or may not be required.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So I'd like to talk now about Coutts a little bit.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So my understanding is that the province was aware that a slow roll was headed towards Coutts and scheduled to arrive on January 29th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, we became aware of that through information that was provided to us through law enforcement and through our Provincial Security Intelligence Office.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Where would you typically get your situational information on an event like this?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We have a reasonably well developed level of coordination between the law enforcement entities and the province, all police services, as well as our sheriffs, and our Provincial Security and Intelligence Office, which allows for the sharing of information in as near to real time as possible between those entities, so that we can -- and, of course, through the use of the Criminal Intelligence Service of Alberta within our law -- or combined forces law enforcement entity alert. Through those things, we receive information on a regular basis on any evolving situations that have an ability to impact any area of jurisdiction, or in this case, potentially multiple areas of jurisdiction across the province, and we ensure that it's shared not only broadly within the law enforcement community, but also provides insight for myself.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And you would have received all those situational updates?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I received situational updates from my folks for sure, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And was the province aware of the threats of a blockade prior to the arrival of the convoy at the border or near the border?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The information we were receiving at the time through the RCMP was based on their conversations with organizers. Nothing that we saw indicated that -- or there’s always the potential for a blockade, but nothing we saw indicated that that was the intent of the slow roll convoy. There were a number of events being planned, including events at the Legislature and in Calgary. And those were all being monitored at the same time. The particular convoy that rolled from basically Lethbridge to the Coutts border was initially intended to be, from the information that was provided to us, a bunch of vehicles coming to the area, demonstrating through a slow roll, and leaving the area.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Mayor Willett, I don’t know if you heard his testimony ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- a few days ago? He testified that he advised the Premier and Minister Savage on September 27th of the risk of a blockade. Maybe we could pull up COU00000183.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Oh, my apologies. Sorry. I wrote up my notes late last night.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I understand. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Sorry. January 27th, of course. So here you see Mayor Willet’s email: “I became aware of an organized effort planned to begin Saturday to totally block all north bound and south bound traffic here at the Coutts Border crossing as well as Carway and Del Bonita.” Were you ever made aware that this information had been provided to the Alberta Government?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t say that I’ve seen this. I’m not going to say for sure that it didn’t flow through the traffic, but I can’t say that I’ve seen this before.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

More generally, were you provided with any intelligence that there was a risk of a blockade?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely. There was always -- as I stated earlier, that’s certainly a risk, and it was a risk that I’m sure there’s chatter around that as well on the social media sites. But the organizers, as I understood them from the conversations that the RCMP were having, and I defer to them to speak in detail around that, were saying that wasn’t the intent. That stated, there’s always that risk.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Were you advised prior to the arrival that there may be a splinter group, potentially, that had an intention to blockade the border?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t remember anybody mentioning splinter groups within any of the conversations I had at that time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That became apparent on the day of the event though, ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- that there was a group that splintered off from the thousand or so vehicles that were initially there. There was about 250 that sort of splintered off and stopped and blocked the road.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So Mayor Willett testified that he received a call the next day from someone he believes to be from Minister Savage’s office informing him that, you know, “Thank you for the information. The RCMP are on it.” You’re not aware of ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No. No, I’m not. Sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Were you briefed on the RCMP’s plan for that event prior to the arrival on the 29th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you know whether there was planning for the possibility of a blockade?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I want to defer probably to Deputy Zablocki, Deputy Commissioner Zablocki, on that, but the briefings I had were around the fact that there’s knowledge of the convoy, the fact -- the approximate size of what they anticipated was going to be coming, their plans to reach out to convoy organizers, distribute information, speak with individuals at checkpoints to make sure they understood the rules around -- sorry, slow down -- not blocking the highway in both areas, giving them, you know, direction on how to lawfully protest within the area. Those were all the plans that were articulated to myself, as well as at a gross level, or a high level, the number of police officers that would be, you know, brought to bear in terms of managing the event as it was unfolding.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you recall what that number was for the Coutts region?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I don’t. I’m sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

You were satisfied, generally, with their plan, I take it?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And obviously we will speak to them about that as well, but it’s good to get your recollection. Have you formed an opinion since then on why the RCMP was not able to prevent the blockade from setting in on that date?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was never on the ground at the site, so I rely heavily on the information from the police and some measure of personal experience, but from the long past. But the reality is that the blockade occurred spontaneously, as I understand it, in the sense that a number of vehicles were circuiting down to border point and back up and across in a bit of a demonstration circle, which was slowing traffic, but not blocking it, and that at some point, a number of vehicles just decided to stop and block the highway, which was, of course, contrary to the assurances of the organizers and contrary to the directions that were given by police. So at that point in time, the police on the ground were faced with a very difficult problem, in the sense that they had 250ish vehicles blocking a highway.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

You understood that the blockade blocked traffic to and from the border; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Correct. On the Canadian side.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Yes. And that it also prevented access by Coutts residents to Milk River and vice versa?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe so. Yeah, there was some early conversations around the challenges that the community of Coutts was facing, and I know one of the things that the RCMP informed me they were working with, and they managed to gain support for, was creating access for the community to roadways out of the area in the first day or two of the event, or couple days of the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And you understood -- I think what you’re telling me is you understood it was a key artery for Coutts to get to essential services and ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. Yes, certainly. Although I’m not as familiar with Coutts to say if it was the only artery. But I believe it was certainly key.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. You spoke just now about the RCMP briefing you about creating an alternate route for residents. Can you maybe just tell me a little bit more what you know about that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I really don’t know a lot more about that, other than to -- what was relayed to me from the RCMP and the sense that they were looking to create access for the community and that it was resolved. And again I -- from memory, I can’t recall which day, but it was resolved early on in those first few days.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And that they would have successfully created some alternative route when the highway was fully blockaded for residents to get out?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And is your understanding that -- were you ever advised that that route was used for commercial vehicles as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Well not to cross the border, but once -- you know, once they had crossed the border, to kind of get out?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There was a number -- the RCMP relayed to me that there were a number of vehicles, truck drivers, sort of caught up in the matter that didn’t want to be there, ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- but had no way of getting out. And I’m going from memory, and I can’t remember which day it was, but again, on those early days, there was some progress made in discussions by the RCMP with the protestors to allow those that did not want to be there to leave. And I believe 25/30 trucks were escorted out of the area. But beyond that, there was no real avenue for truck drivers to go through when all the lanes were blocked.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think it’s important to note that throughout the duration of the event, which was a couple weeks, there were, you know, the majority of the time, there actually were one lane of travel open both north and south.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So fair to say, to your knowledge, there was no alternate route available for commercial vehicles? RCMP was relying on, essentially, the good faith of the protestors?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Well, through Coutts- Sweet Grass border crossing, that would be accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There are other border crossings that, very early on, efforts were made to ensure that those remained open. While the primary border crossing to the United States from Alberta is, of course, at Coutts at Sweet Grass, the Del Bonita and Carway crossings are also available. They have more restricted hours, and efforts were made by our Transport Canada folks, as well as the RCM -- or, sorry; transportation folks in Alberta, not Transport Canada; my apologies -- Transport Alberta Ministry and the RCMP to work with CBSA and American officials to ensure that we could extend the hours and the services that were available on those border crossings to facilitate travel, to the extent that it could be done, outside of Coutts itself when it was closed.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. I might have some more questions on that later but that’s ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- that’s helpful. Thank you. So my understanding from the institutional report is that on January 31st, the RCMP was prepared to conduct some enforcement action but that some protesters left around that time, and there was attempts to negotiate with the remainder of the protesters, but that that was not ultimately successful. Is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s the information that was relayed to me from the RCMP, absolutely.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what was your understanding of why those negotiations were unsuccessful at that time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I actually couldn’t speak to that. I can tell you that with some of the protesters wanting to leave, and others indicating that they were interested in transitioning to a lawful protest, the RCMP made the tactical decision to proceed with negotiations, which seemed reasonable and sound to me. And they did so. Those were not -- those ultimately proved unfruitful at that time. But, again, I wasn’t on the ground having those conversations so it would be speculative for me to say why they didn’t work out.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-20

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Were you advised at this -- around this time, January 31st, that the protest leadership had -- was not quite clear yet?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 25 21-025-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No. I can tell you that I was advised as the matter progressed that it was difficult to negotiate because there were multiple areas -- or multiple individuals that would come forward and claim leadership, and in this case there was a group that there was the initial leadership of the convoy, and then there was the splinter group, and then there was a group at this point in time, January 31st, that came forward and identified themselves as leadership and were speaking with the RCMP. I think later on -- and I’m not sure that was the 31st; I think it was in the subsequent days to follow, other groups identified them -- or individuals identified themselves as leadership, and not being represented by the folks that had previously been speaking with the RCMP. And one of the difficulties that was expressed to me from the RCMP was that they were getting multiple groups and -- within the -- or factions, if you will, within the global protesters, they are individuals with a mixed group of, sort of, motivations within the protest event itself, and it was making it difficult to negotiate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 25 21-025-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And is one of the reasons that enforcement wasn’t pursued at this time; again, January 31st, because some more moderate elements started coming forward and expressed an intent to become a more lawful protest? Had you been briefed on that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 25 21-025-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s what the RCMP actually indicated to me, and of course, their goal is always to resolve peacefully with the minimal use of force, so they took advantage of that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what did you understand a more lawful protest to look like?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The flow of -- the information that the RCMP were stating is their goal was always certainly -- throughout the event but certainly at the start was to re-establish the flow of traffic through the Coutts border crossing.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

As I indicated earlier, there were times when it was successful in a limited fashion, in the sense that one lane was left open, and there was varying degrees of flow of traffic, sometimes escorted; sometimes free- flowing at a smaller pace. At some points the border was processing up to 50 percent of its normal kind of volume of traffic through the area. And then it would be shut down for a period of time, reopen, and then shut down again. And then ultimately we shut down until it was resolved for, I think, two or three days at the end.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So around the 10th, 11th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Tenth (10th), yeah, somewhere in there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it was resolved on the -- I think the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Yes. And were -- is your understanding that during this time, commercial vehicles were still using the Coutts point of entry, maybe in limited numbers but some -- there was still activity at the Coutts port of entry?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

When the lanes were open, yes. There were -- as I stated, though, there were periods where they would be shut down. There was a period where there was a car accident that necessitated a shutdown. So it wasn’t a constant flow, and it was interrupted at times and then reopened, and then interrupted at times and reopened.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And maybe I just want to clarify; my understanding is that the blockade was -- I don’t have a sense of the distance but maybe a kilometre away from the actual ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- Customs point of entry, and so that’s why I’m kind of making a distinction between the two.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. It’s a -- yeah, you’re probably almost as familiar with the area as I am, having never actually travelled through that border point myself, but my understanding of it is the actual Customs office is just south of where the blockade took place, which is on the two highways that -- two sections of Highway 4 which travel down to it and there’s a bit of crossover, and come back up to it, and that’s where the blockade itself was, the primary blockade, and there was another one that actually sort of rose up, up the highway closer to the community of Milk River.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Yes, yes. Okay. So you’ve already spoken about the contingency planning that was made with alternate point of entries. Do you have a sense of what the impact was of having to reroute some of that traffic to those other points of entry; can you speak to that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 28 21-028-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Some of the challenges were, as they were expressed to me -- and, of course, I wasn’t in personal conversation on many of these things, were that US officials receive certain type of goods -- types of goods only at certain checkpoints; live animal stock, foodstuffs, heavy transports versus automobile traffic, private vehicle traffic. And there was a lot of challenge in trying to extend not only hours of operation but also accommodate, at alternate points of contact for Customs clearance, the different types of commercial goods that travel through that border point. And I will not profess to be an expert in that area. It’s an area that I understood to be a challenge, and one that was worked on throughout the event with our folks from Transportation, Agriculture, as well as their US colleagues, and CBSA.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 28 21-028-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. If we could pull up ALB00001573? I understand that on February 3rd, Deputy Commissioner Zablocki of the RMCP sent a letter to Minister Savage requesting the deployment of additional officers under the PPSA, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 28 21-028-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And that’s the Provincial Police Service Agreement between the Province and the RCMP; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, it’s between the Province and Canada.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

And the RCMP is the service provider, and that’s the article that allows for the RCMP to move policing resources across multiple business lines in order to self-support when their resources require that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And this is the response from Minister Savage. And if we can just go down a little bit. So there’s a response the same day that approves the request; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And it says, if you go down to the fourth line: “This is in response to a current blockade near the Coutts land border crossing and intelligence suggesting further blockades planned throughout the province. In my opinion, this constitutes an emergency in the Province of Alberta, under the Provincial Police Service Agreement.” So why was additional deployment necessary according to the RCMP; what did they tell you about that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. My conversations with D/Comm. Zablocki, in those conversations he indicated that of course the resource draw to maintain order and safety at the blockade -- and, of course, manage other events that were and could be happening across the province -- was significant, and there are specialized resources that are used in those types of events, as well as general duty resources. And his intent, through invoking this article of the Provincial Police Services Agreement, was to reach out to other provinces for extra resources so as to give his team relief, in the sense that he could spell people off for a period of time, get them through a rest period and then put them back into their role.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And he eventually obtained, I think, 40 officers from British Columbia; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Can you tell us about -- here it mentions, “...intelligence suggesting further blockades planned throughout the province”; what can you tell us about that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I might have mentioned it earlier, but during the events at Coutts, we also had events in Calgary; numbers of people protesting and walking, marching through the community. We had events at the Legislature in Edmonton. We had intelligence and actual action of rolling blockades in some parts of the province, I think Fort Macleod, and a few others, so -- I believe Taber police dealt with a minor event as well. And so there were -- they were also tracking on social media, at different times, calls from individuals to protest in other parts of the province and create other traffic snarls, slow downs, that sort of thing. So those would have been the events that, I believe, the Deputy Commissioner would’ve been referencing; although, of course, he’d be able to speak to that himself.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. So at this time, and this is February 3rd, what was your understanding of why the RCMP had not yet been able to bring the blockade to an end?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

By February 3rd; at that point in time they were still working on negotiations with the protesters. If memory serves, they had a lane open by then, and there was north and south traffic flowing through there. They’d also, by then, encountered difficulties, if I -- if memory serves, with obtaining heavy tow capacity, should they have to move to an enforcement action. I don’t believe, at this point in time, they were looking to execute on an enforcement action. They were engaged in constructive dialogue that had been keeping the lanes open, mostly, for north/south traffic to some degree, and were hoping for a peaceful and, you know, a nonenforcement- oriented solution. But they also recognized they had challenges, logistically, should they go there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And by that time the RCMP had begun to look for towing resources; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And did they feel obtaining those resources would be necessary to any enforcement action?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, they did. You can remove the people but we would still have large numbers of large vehicles that were blocking the highway.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I take it you’re familiar with Alberta’s Emergency Management Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m familiar with it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

You mentioned it before, this is one that you actually need to invoke; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so, under that Act, the Government of Alberta can declare a State of Emergency throughout the province?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And are you aware that the use of that Act would’ve allowed Alberta to compel the use of towing resources, of operators; and, also, to prohibit access to certain areas?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I am aware of that provision, the Act, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

In your witness statement you say that Alberta considered invoking this legislation, but that it was determined not to be necessary. Can you explain the basis for that assessment?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So as a public official, we of course provide advice to elected officials. Within that, we explored the realm of the possible, in the sense that we did identify the Emergency Act, its provisions, and the authorities that would come with its invocation. We also identified a number of statutes that provided law enforcement with effective arrests and charging tools, to deal with the actions that were taking place at Coutts. And to be fair, there are a number of authorities that exist sub or below the Emergency Act that would allow for police to arrest, detain, and remove people from that area. The determination was made by our government that, given the number of tools that were already available in statute to police, the addition of the Emergency Act would’ve changed nothing in terms of the authorities that the police required. And you mentioned compelling individuals to cooperate, that would certainly be something that could be attempted, but there’s also information that many of the individuals within the industry were fairly supportive of the protest or did not wish to be seen to be involved in taking action against the protest, for their own reasons, and I won’t speak to those ‘cause I don’t want to put myself in their head. But the reality is that a compulsion to somebody to provide support could conceivably, and probably, have been met just as easily with a refusal and then you are left with a choice of having to now deal with enforcement in relation to service providers and still not be any further ahead, in terms of where you’re trying to go. We ultimately thought there were more appropriate and better avenues to seek that support. One being Canadian Armed Forces’ support from CFB Edmonton, and the other is ultimately what we did do, which was resolve it ourselves through the purchase of equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Did you -- did -- what was the basis, I guess, for the assessment that some people may not comply even if compelled? Did you receive advice on that from RCMP, from intelligence, or was it just ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s -- I should make that clear, that’s a very personal assessment on my part. That was not advice that was provided to anybody, and I can’t speak to our government officials, our Minister and Premier, and where their head was at on that. So I should be very clear about that. And that basis is just experience, and the reaction -- and this wouldn’t have February 3rd; this would’ve been much closer to 8th or 9th -- that I was getting from my folks that were engaged in conversations with the industry when they were attempting to solicit support from -- for the RCMP to use their equipment. It was categorically dismissed, and the people were either not returning our calls, point blank, or telling us that they just refuse to cooperate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did the RCMP ever request that the -- this Act be invoked?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So we can pull up COU00000016. These are text messages between Minister Sawhney, former Minister of Transport and Mayor Willett. And we can go to the second page, if we can go down a little bit? Okay. Here. So you'll see here on the right, Mayor Willett says -- he's talking about meeting with the protesters. "They need someone from government [to] get a straight answer from [...] If it comes up, are you still willing to take a trip to Coutts?" And she responds, "Of course! I [need] to get clearance from the Boss and RCMP." Were you consulted on whether the government should send an emissary of sorts to Coutts to meet with protesters?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

To be clear, I'm not seeing this until my preparation for the inquiry and this was provided to me. So I wasn't consulted. I know there were conversations at one point of MLAs independently meeting with protesters and having conversations with them, and that was -- I've not seen anything to substantiate whether that actually occurred or not. My information is that it wasn't something that the government was officially trying to do, but again, I can't speak to whether it happened or not. I do know that during those conversations, we met with our -- we -- not we, myself, but our department spoke with our Minister around that to make sure that we knew what may or may not be taking place and could convey that to the RCMP, of course, who are still charged with managing the event. The information that was conveyed to me was that there were no certainly official meetings taking place down there and that they would be guided by the RCMP, who, of course, had operational command and were engaged in negotiations, so as not to complicate any conversations that they might be involved in.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 35 21-035-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you know what the reason for, because my understanding is that Minister Sawhney did not end up going to Coutts. Do you know what the reason for that decision not to officially engage with the protesters was?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don't. I can't put myself in the Minister's mind. I apologise for that. I don't believe we received any request from the RCMP though to engage at that level.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So I suspect that might have been the reason.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

In the Institutional Report, it says that the RCMP asked the Sheriff's Highway Patrol not to take enforcement action until February 7th. Do you remember that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And do you know why that was the case?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Again, the RCMP, I believe, were asking that we make sure that our officers did not take unilateral enforcement actions outside of their operational plan. I can only surmise, and I will leave it to Deputy Zablocki to confirm, but that would have been to ensure that any actions that we took didn't interfere with any negotiations that might have been ongoing with individuals at the site.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-23

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so what changed on the 7th? Because I know after the 7th, there was a number of violations were issued. Do you know what changed?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That would have been a -- at the time, there was a sort of a very moderate or a small enforcement, I guess you could term it enforcement initiative that the RCMP wanted to engage in, basically, starting with information, if memory serves correctly, moving into I think it was checkpoint 10 near Milk River to have conversations with people, provide them with information, start charging vehicles, etc. So it would have been a coordinated effort based on the RCMP's operational plan and under their direction that our officers would have been involved in.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Do you know if any protesters left because of that limited enforcement action around that time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can't say that. I'm sorry. I'm sure the RCMP could tell you, but I just don't have that off the top of my head.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

In the Institutional Report, it states that the province made a alternative protest site available, and we heard this from other witnesses, at Milk River, and that that would have been on February 10th. Can you tell us how that came about?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Absolutely. The RCMP actually suggested that it would be useful to them in their conversations with protesters if we were to make available a site that they could protest on that would meet their visibility needs but not obstruct traffic. We engaged with Transportation and ourselves, but primarily Transportation, in developing a site near Milk River, which met the needs of the RCMP, on property that we owned already. And Transportation actually put in access in egress areas for protesters and set up I believe even WiFi access for protesters to be able to utilise in order to facilitate those that wanted to protest lawfully at the site. This was a tactic that the RCMP wished to engage in, to, you know, manage the negotiations, to migrate this to a lawful.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And did the RCMP brief you on whether that was done because there was buy-in from protesters on something like that, or done in hopes that once it was set up, they could get by it; do you know?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

You know, they -- I don't recall knowing whether it was one or the other.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was a request, and, of course, we do what we could to assist, so we did it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

The Institutional Report states that the Sheriffs Highway Patrol maintained certain checkpoints at other points of entry to prevent blockades.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Near other points of entry, yeah. Yes, that's correct. Del Bonita and Carway were the primary, the -- primarily the land points of entry that we were concerned about. And under the direction of the RCMP, our sheriffs set up checkpoints there to ensure that vehicles travelling down to those points of entry had legitimate business reasons to be doing so.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And are you aware of whether any potential blockades were thwarted by those efforts or not?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not -- I couldn't speak to what could have been, so, yes. It's possible, but I'm not aware of any -- anybody showing up and being turned away in -- en mass ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Yeah. I understand that on February 9th, I believe, a charge under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act was laid against Pastor Artur Pawlowski?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Is that the only charge that was laid under the -- that Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don't want to misspeak here. Something tells me it was used twice, but I -- certainly, that's the only one that comes to mind.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So you understood that the Act could apply to the situation?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely, yeah, and certainly, Commissioner Zablocki and the RCMP would have a lot more fulsome detail on the charges they laid.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did the RCMP ever explain to you why it wasn't utilised more?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Why that particular Act was not utilised more? No. I know that enforcement was a strategy that was being looked at on a case-by-case basis, moment to moment, situation to situation. And they would use it in a manner that worked for them in terms of managing the overall event. But they never provided me with, you know, detailed explanations around why this charge against this person, why not this charge against these people. That's an operational level of detail that's candidly not something I would normally ask about.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And that was within their discretion to decide under what Act to charge an individual?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did the Alberta Government ever take any steps to kind of attempt to have the Act used more fulsomely during this period or anything like that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I mean, in the sense that we were very careful throughout the entire event to ensure that we were not directing police in their operational response. We were asking questions of them around planning, what they had done, if -- to the extent that they could share, what they would share in terms of their intentions, and things that we could do to facilitate the resolution of the event, but we were very careful not to direct them.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Your understanding is that law enforcement action in the early morning of February 14th is what led to the end of the blockade?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly, that was the beginning of events that ultimately led to the event. I would hesitate to say that that was the single event that was causal in that sense. There was a lot of work that was done by the RCMP and others in the days leading up to that to develop relationships, et cetera. So I -- to what extent was this a -- that crystallising event the sole reason and how much of that was facilitated by the outreach that was done in the past and the, you know, communications that was done by the government around the impacts of this, I think there are a constellation of factors that could have played a part in those decisions. But certainly, those enforcement actions were a catalysing event, for sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did you ever hear from RCMP that one of those factors may have been the rumours that the Emergencies Act would be invoked?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

No. So when did you hear that they would -- sorry, let me back up. The evidence we've heard is that protestors met in the morning of February 14th and decided they would be leaving the next morning. Were you advised on the 14th that they had made that decision?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you recall around what time you were advised?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was very early in the morning that I was advised of the enforcement action, 7 -- well, very early for me, sorry, 7, 7:30. Now I'm struggling now to recall if it was at that particular conversation, or one of the conversations I had in the morning that I was advised that it looked like the protestors were now dismantling. And I want to think it was kind of a little bit later on, but that would be speculative on my part. It was all within the morning, certainly, of the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So within the morning, you understood they were leaving -- would be leaving the next morning?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Or and beginning preparation that day actually and there was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- already events taking -- people taking down tents and structures and leaving on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And was it -- I forget his name -- Deputy Commissioner Zablocki ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- is he the one who would have been briefing you on that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And your understanding is that the next morning they were all gone by early morning?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

For all intents and purposes, operations were resumed on the 15th at the border point. I think there were still -- there may have been individuals still packing up, et cetera, in the area, and I'm not sure if Milk River had fully transitioned to the lawful protest site. It would have been the 15th, 16th, but I believe operations at the border resumed on the 15th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So your understanding with respect to Milk River is that throughout that day at some point, the protestors at the Milk River checkpoint would have moved to the legal protest site, or at least some of them?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the -- yeah, they moved or left.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Majority actually left, if my memory serves me, from the conversations I had with the Deputy.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

This may be too on the ground from your vantage point, but are you aware of any protestors moving from Coutts to that legal protest site?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I wouldn't have that knowledge, sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so your understanding is no -- other than the raid early that morning, no enforcement action had to be taken to clear that -- to clear the blockade in Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There were a couple of arrests and some vehicle seizures associated to an event prior to the search warrants and the further charges there. So and there were, of course, the earlier charges that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- took place later on, but, yeah ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- outside of that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- in the actual clearing of the blockade?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there were no further arrests beyond -- I think there were 13 individuals that were arrested in those initial hours.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So your understanding is none of the powers under the Emergencies Act were used at that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- to clear the blockade?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The Federal Emergencies Act? No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

What about other protests in Alberta at that time, what was their status, if you can recall?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We continued to have protests in Calgary for quite some time after that, as well as in Edmonton, around the legislature. And both the Edmonton Police, the Calgary Police and the RCMP and our sheriffs were involved in those. We had protests at the Calgary Remand Centre involving individuals supportive of Mr. Paslowski (ph) -- Pawlowski. I apologise if I'm saying the name wrong. It's not intentional. Yeah, around that individual. And we had a number of events that recurred for some time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And in your witness statement, you state that there was always a possibility that protesters would attempt another blockade, but to your knowledge, there was no intelligence suggesting that might occur. So is your evidence then that there was no credible threats of a blockade forming after the 14th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 45 21-045-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

My recollection of the intelligence briefings that I was getting was there were individual chatter, like individuals that would chatter about we need to go back, regroup and re-establish, but there was no update being shown on the open source information that we were receiving, and no information that was indicating that this was anything other than aspirational chatter from isolated individuals. And so I think it'd be fair to characterise that there was no intelligence surfaced that would indicate that was a real threat for that to evolve, but that's not to say that the police didn't take serious the possibility. I believe the RCMP remained, you know, present in some numbers in Milk River and in the area for some time afterwards, just to ensure that that didn't take place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 45 21-045-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And were you ever briefed on any factors that would have led to there being no uptake of those kind of threats?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 45 21-045-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

No. Okay. Let's talk a bit more about towing capacity. So I understand that fairly early on, I believe February 1st, the Province began to make requests for towing resources; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That sounds right, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And those requests were always for both tow trucks and tow operators?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So when I -- I'll refer to tow resources but ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Was -- and I think you've already told us that those -- that capacity was critical and necessary if any enforcement action was to be taken?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

In the event of mass enforcement action. I guess I should clarify that, if ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- we were going to go and remove all of the protesters and remove the blockage, if the RCMP were to do that, that would absolutely have to be in place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Can you tell us a little bit about the challenges the provinces faced in obtaining tow capacity?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

To begin with, the RCMP, as the police force of jurisdiction, made their efforts and they had some limited success very early on, very, very, very early on, first days, that that support dissolved from industry quite quickly. They went afield -- and that was local support. They went afield and garnered some limited support which also quite quickly dissolved. And then they were struggling after that to find any support anywhere, both within the province and commercially outside of the province, B.C., Saskatchewan. I believe they might even have looked to commercial entities in the south, but I'm not a hundred percent certain of that. I'll let them speak to that. They approached us to indicate the challenges they were facing, and they indicated that they were going through their channels to seek support from the Canadian government for the use of heavy lift capacity that exists at the Canadian Forces Base in Edmonton, and were looking for anything that we could do to assist in terms of just generally trying to work through that. We initially, when tasked with trying to support them, supported their call for Canadian Forces logistical support, and we also embarked on a process, sort of an evolving process of attempting to secure that lift capacity for them. The first was through revisiting the commercial entities that they contacted as the government to try and secure support for them. We were unable to gain any support that way. We looked afield to the City of Edmonton, City of Lethbridge, City of Calgary, industry, ATCO, those sorts of things, CNCP, colleagues to the south of the U.S. border, to try and look for any capacity that we could get there. We had some very limited success, in the sense that we had one city that was able to provide us with a heavy tow truck. And that’s a minor -- sort of like a loader type, and small crane support from another city. But not the equipment that the RCMP required. So in support of our ask to the Canadian Forces, we had the RMCP actually set out exactly what they needed for equipment, should they have to go to that type of enforcement action. And that was what constituted sort of our list of two trucks and capacity that we sought out for them. Eventually, we determined that there was not going to be a commercial avenue there, and it was becoming apparent that we weren’t going to get access to the tow capacity of CFB Edmonton. And we were able to, through a multiple number of sort of, you know, online sites, identify five vendors who had lift capacity, used two trucks, if you will, for sale. The commercial providers of those entities, it was a long waiting list to get anything from the actual manufacturers. We’d explored that already. We did manage to secure a small number on the weekend of I think it would have been the 12th. We had them in place down in Lethbridge and turned over to the RCMP, and by the 14th, had identified and were closing the deal on the remainder of the list, save two items, which were all, I believe, in place on the 15th, in the south, for the RCMP at their disposal.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. If we could pull up ALB00000153? So I’ll have just a couple more specific questions on this topic, but you’ve provided great overviews. Thank you for that. So my understanding, and I think you’ve mentioned it, is that the RCMP had already made a request of Public Safety Canada for assistance from Canadian Armed Forces; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 48 21-048-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And that they had declined to become involved? Is that your understanding?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t say that they declined to the RCMP to become involved. I can tell you that the RCMP indicated they weren’t seeing the support. Whether they had an answer or not, I really would have to defer to them, because I don’t recall them ever telling me whether they’d been formally told no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And do you know whether any other options were being explored other than the Canadian Armed Forces within the Federal Government for these kinds of resources?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t speak to specifically what options were being explored, whether they were looking at Transport Canada or other entities for their capacity. I did have conversations at various times with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Transport Canada, Kevin Brousseau, around our needs and around efforts that we were making. Along with what I’d described earlier, I’d also reached out to industry contacts within Alberta, as had our Transportation Department, to try and encourage them to help us in finding support. So I did ask Transport Canada’s ADM if he could reach into his contacts within industry and see if they could garner any support from us. Whether that materialized into any efforts or not, I would have to defer to Transport Canada on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. Let’s go to ALB0000097. So this is the February 5th letter from Minister McIver to Ministers Mendicino and Blair. Can you explain what the purpose of that letter was while it comes up?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’ll just have a quick peek. Oh, I believe this was the formal request for -- there had been informal conversations, as I’ve given to understand, before this. But this was a formal request from our Minister to the Federal Ministers for the deployment of those heavy lift capacity resources that the Canadian Forces possess in Alberta to assist us in removal of any equipment, should the RCMP go to an enforcement action. This was a formal request for that support.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And it says, we can see at the bottom of that first paragraph, at the end of the third to last line: “…the Royal Canadian Mounted Police […] have exhausted all local and regional options to alleviate the week-long service disruptions at this important international border.” So what was meant by that? That the RCMP had exhausted all options?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

As I described earlier, that’s their efforts to try and secure commercial or other, you know, industry or City support to provide those kinds of supports that they needed.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So that was only referring to towing capacity ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- is your understanding?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. Yeah, this letter was about towing capacity.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And then if we can go to the second last paragraph? So you see there: “To support this approach, I[‘m] requesting federal assistance that includes the provision of equipment and personnel to move approximately 70 semi- tractor trailers and approximately 75 personal and recreational vehicles from the area.” So that was the request that was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it was structured that way, as opposed to the way that the RCMP structured their request to us in the sense that -- or we have formal military personnel and indicate that you don’t actually ask for the equipment, you ask for the capacity and they determine the equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And here it doesn’t specifically indicate that this was a request for Canadian Armed Forces resources, but was your understanding was that was what you were looking for?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly that was what we were looking for, although any capacity that could do that, whether it came from the CAF or some other branch of the Canadian Government would have been welcome.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

But you weren’t necessarily specifically aware of other sources?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I could think of no other source.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly in-province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I understand that there was a conversation between Minister McIver and Minister Blair on February 7th, so two days later, following up on this request. And do you know what the response from Minister Blair was at that time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I -- off the top of my head now I can’t recall, but I think the response was something to the effect -- it might be in the Institutional ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I think your Institutional Report indicates ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- that he raised some doubts about the use of ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Yeah. That’s where I was thinking he was indicating that they were having conversations with the Chief of Defence, but they weren’t -- it wasn’t positive.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

At that time, it wasn’t clear ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it wasn’t looking like -- there was hesitation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we can go to ALB00001868? So these are the text messages between Ministers McIver and Blair.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we go to page 2? If we could just go down? So February 8th, Minister Blair says: “Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I spoke to our Minister of Defence and conveyed the importance and urgency of an answer…” If you could keep going down? “… from CAF. She is speaking to the Chief of Defence Staff this morning and will advise.” You were advised that that had taken place; that they were in communications?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I was advised of that. I’d not, of course, seen the texts themselves until my preparation for the Inquiry, but I was advised that those conversations were taking place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And in parallel to this, as you’ve already described, the Province was undertaking its own steps to obtain these resources; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. To whatever ability we could, we were looking for anything we could find. (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

We’ll come back to this, but if we can go to ALB00001328? This is an email chain from February 12th; we can start at the bottom. So who is Rae-Ann Lajeunesse?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time she was the Deputy Minister, if I’m mot mistaken, of Transport -- Transportation in the Government of Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so she writes to you that she’s communicating with Transport Canada, and that they’ve struck a working group, and that it would be a good idea to loop you into that conversation. And if we go up to the second email, you advise, and the federal government, as you see, is copied on this exchange; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Transport Canada specifically, Mr. Keenan. You say: “[We’re] actually posed to make several purchases today as a matter of fact,...[the] number of vehicles identified for followup [sic].” So you were aware that you had communicated with the federal government that that was taking place at the same time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah. And my apologies for the typo in there. It was, I believe, intended to say, “Poised” but it was also Saturday afternoon there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Sounds good. And you say: “Our biggest challenge appears to be obtaining operators at this time though we might be faster on equipment acquisition[s] if we can combine efforts.” And so were you -- were you of the view that you were making progress on the equipment, but the operators were still the largest issue?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. We were making progress. By then we’d acquired some of the list and we’re working on leads, some of which later fall through but others that ultimately proved fruitful on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And that was one of the things you had asked the federal government for.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. It was my hope that we were searching out with our team for commercial capacity that we could purchase, and thought that perhaps the federal government could do the same and...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we could just go up to the top? So again there, third paragraph down, Transport Canada was coordinating a working group to support local police, provincial authorities, in securing truck and tractor removal capacity. So you were -- what was your understanding of those efforts; if you can describe that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t -- I actually don’t have a lot of information around the efforts that were being made at the federal level. We did have a follow-up conversation the next day with ADM Brosseau and EWGSC representative prior to us actually completing the purchase of the last group of equipment, but I’m not sure what efforts they were actually undertaking at the federal level; it was unclear to me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If you go to ALB00001468? So that same day you had communications with Kevin Brosseau. Who is he?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

He’s the Assistant Deputy -- at the time, he was Assistant Deputy Minister for Transport Canada.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And if we can go down, what were you providing him with here on February 12th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

This was on the 12th, so this was the remaining items from the list that the RCMP had provided us, which we had yet to acquire. So, of course, those were the items we were still looking to get, although I -- again, we had a deal pending later that day that ultimately fell through on much of this, and then we ended up acquiring it all on -- save for the top two items, we acquired the rest of those on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, they were in our possession, I think, the 14th, 15th, something like that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The deal started on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we -- if we can -- so you provide him with the list. And then if we go up, oh, sorry; go down to the bottom, actually. I understand you guys had a phone call that day. What do you recall being discussed?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think that was just a touch base -- and I’m going from vague recollection here so please, you know, know that this might not be 100 percent correct, but from my memory the conversation was fairly generic in the sense that we were touching base, talking about the fact that we needed to combine resources, and talking about what we had acquired, and what we were trying to acquire, and that was the trigger for my following email to him, giving him the list of what was outstanding. And, again, I’m going from memory, so I apologize if that’s not 100 percent accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And your understanding at that time was that they were still working on the request?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

They’re working on ways to support us, that’s correct, yes. And in terms of the Canadian Forces request, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And did the Alberta government ever received a formal response to the February 5th request?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 58 21-058-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not that I’m aware of.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 58 21-058-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. If we could go to PB.CAN.NSC00000690? So my understanding, and we’ll see this when the document comes up, is that this is a draft response to that request. If we go down a little bit, you’ll see, second paragraph: “Below is [a] current draft of RFA request response...” If we go down -- we’ll go down a little bit further. Sorry; down more. Okay. Oh, I’m sorry. Okay, so: “My colleagues and I have given your request serious consideration and we have consulted key partners to assess our ability to assist you. Given the lack of commercial resources, the Canadian Armed Forces...would be the only Federal asset that might potentially meet this request. Unfortunately, discussions have made clear that the CAF [sic] have neither the type of assets required, nor the expertise to do this without significant possible risk.” Was that sentiment ever communicated to you verbally, or in writing some other way?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 58 21-058-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not like that, no. No. I know there’s -- from personal experience I know there’s hesitance on the part of the Canadian Armed Forces to be involved in any police-type actions domestically, and I understand that’s an issue of concern to them, and the Government of Canada, of course. I’ve obviously not received this.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 59 21-059-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s a draft, so I don’t think it was sent. We have former significantly high ranking Canadian Armed Forces officers who are now within the Government of Alberta, including lieutenant-colonels, colonels, brigadier- generals, major-generals, and a lieutenant-general who have experience in command of Canadian Armed Forces based in Alberta. I’m surprised to read that they thought that the assets -- they don’t have the assets required to move those vehicles, given that, you know, the Armed Forces based in, from my personal knowledge, in Alberta, has the assets to move tanks, Leopard tanks being very large. So they can recover, lift, load and move tanks. I would have thought they would have capacity for this, but I’m not with the Canadian Armed Forces. In terms of risk, one of the things that we made clear in our conversations internally in the RCMP -- I’ll let them speak to it but I’m hoping to make clear as well, is there would be no use of any Canadian Armed Forces personnel in an enforcement capacity. They wouldn't be meeting protesters on the ground. The RCMP would be responsible for clearing and making safe the area, and any heavy equipment movement would take place after that had taken place, and the CAF would have been there dealing with equipment, not people. So I'm not sure where the significant risk part comes from, but again, I can't speak to the CAF's response or the Government of Canada's response, so I'll let them explain their thinking on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 59 21-059-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. I just want to look at this paragraph that starts with further. It says, "...I understand that Alberta has the required legal authorities necessary to enforce compliance, as a highway is considered essential infrastructure, and it is unlawful to wilfully obstruct, interrupt or interfere with the obstruction, maintenance use or operation of any essential infrastructure in a manner that renders the essential infrastructure dangerous, useless, inoperative, or ineffective as per the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act of Alberta. There are a number of contraventions or other applicable legislation that may also be enforced by Alberta and its police forces. I encourage you to look at the actions taken in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Ontario who have used new or existing authorities to safeguard critical infrastructure." Had this type of sentiment been communicated to you in your discussions with Federal Government that Alberta ought to be making better use of the enforcement authority at its disposal?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 60 21-060-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It had not been communicated to me, but candidly, it's a little off point to the request in the sense that the request was not for assistance in bringing laws to bear that would enable our officers to conduct enforcement actions. We had, as I indicated earlier, considered all of the legislative authority that was available in the toolbox for law enforcement to deal with this and felt that there was sufficient -- I would agree with the statement that there are sufficient legislative authorities within existence at the time to give the police the authority to act. The challenge was that to support their actions in that manner and to ultimately remove those vehicles, we required a logistical capacity that the police lacked, not a legislative authority, but a logistical capacity, and we were looking to the Government of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces to help augment that logistical capacity gap. Candidly, the police already knew about these -- this legislation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 61 21-061-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And the police didn't request any additional enforcement authorities?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 61 21-061-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we can go to PB.CAN.00001514. So this is a call -- notes or -- yeah, notes from a call on February 13th between Assistant Deputy Minister Dalkalbab and Brousseau. I believe you participated in this call and there was ADMs from Manitoba, Ontario, Alberta. You recall this?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I recall the conversation with Talal and ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If we can just go down, there's a bullet marked "Alberta" in bold and I'd like to look at the second bullet under that, "[Alberta requests CAF support --] Alberta requests for CAF support have been denied, but they are surprised that their request to access Reservists with operational skills needed to drive towing trucks was not accepted (this part of the request is news to us and we committed to follow up on this specific point)." I should clarify, these are notes taken on the I believe Transport Canada side. Was your understanding from this call that the request for the towing trucks denied?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. There was also -- and I think, for clarity around the Reservist piece, there was another proposal that was being communicated and I can't tell you through what channel, but it was to -- for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Government of Canada to consider the use of some of the Reservists that might have operator skills to operate heavy lift equipment, should we acquire it. We had some that were identified, but we could use a few more. And if there were Reservists within the Canadian Armed Forces who by virtue of their experience in their trades might have that skillset, we'd proffered up the idea that perhaps we could use them, either on a -- you know, as a hired capacity to us or through whatever mechanism might make sense to the CAF, on their own time to support us. And the response that I was made aware of was that that would not be considered.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

That -- sorry, that the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Use of those Reservists would not be considered.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Would not be considered. And was your understanding from this call that Transport Canada had not considered the part of the request with respect to operators?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that Reservist portion. That was actually ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Only the Reservist portion.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- something that neither Dalal or Transport -- the ADM from Public Safety Canada or his colleague from TC had indicated they were aware of, but they were going to look into that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-23

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. If we can -- Mr. Clerk, I don't know if you still have that text message exchange available that I said I would come back to.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-27

The Clerk (POEC)

Were those the texts with -- from Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

No, Minister Blair and Minister McIver.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-04

The Clerk (POEC)

It would take me a moment, but it may be quicker if you can provide the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-06

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Maybe it's ALB1868 maybe?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, sounds like there's a consensus. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. I know I'm coming up on my time here. I have I'd say maybe five minutes left, if that's okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. If we could go to page 3? If we could go down? So there was a follow-up on February 10th and February 21st, and your understanding is there was no answer from the Minister before the invocation of the Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, based on the text exchange that I see here, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-23

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- in the call on the 13th, you were aware through Transport Canada they would not be providing the tow truck resources?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

They had not been able to provide that, and I was aware from other conversations that the CAF were not ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 65 21-065-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- looking to assist.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 65 21-065-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And so I'll just look at the response here from Minister Blair on February 21st, "You may be aware that we invoked the Emergenc[ies] Act on February 15, which addressed the tow truck issue quite effectively. Happy to answer any questions you may have although..." And we can continue, "...I am sure the RCMP can advise you on how it works. A letter will be forthcoming." You can keep going. "I understand [...] Prime Minister spoke to Premier Kenney about the Emergenc[ies] Act, but I..." You can keep going. "...will ensure correspondence follows to you." And then Minister McIver responds, "We received no help until after Coutts issue was resolved and you know thaat [sic] Disappointed to hear you say otherwise." Keep going to the next page. "As I was disappointed to learn of your reaction to our efforts to respond to the threat to critical infrastructure and the integrity of our International borders posed by these illegal blockades. Fortunately the CACP, the OACP, [and] RCMP and the Ontario Provincial Police have been clear and unequivocal that these measures have been essential to their efforts to [...]solve the criminal blockades and occupations. We are all grateful that the RCMP was able to resolve the very dangerous situation at Coutts safely.” Keep going to the next page. “What is true is that Coutts was resolved on the 14th. And we got our own tow trucks after you could no [not] help.” I guess. Continue. “Your letter speaks for itself.” “As does your lack of response until too late…” Getting to the end. “To be clear. Is your point that we should have invoked the Emergenc[ies] Act earlier?” “No. You were too late and did the wrong thing. My point is saying nothing now would have been better than not telling the truth.” I wanted to ask you about this last text from Minister McIver that you were too late and did the wrong thing. What is that in reference to? If you have an understanding ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 65 21-065-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- of what that could be in reference to?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s very difficult for me to put my head directly into the mind of Minister McIver. Candidly, though, my understanding and interest from this, based on our global conversations within the GOA, were that we didn’t require a legislative authority of the Emergency Act to resolve our issue. We required logistical help that was available in-province. And it was denied to us. So we found a different way to address it. That is, bought the tow trucks ourselves.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s, again, in the absence of being able to have spoken to him directly on this, that’s my sense of it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Understood. Thank you. Just a last topic here that won’t take me very long, my understanding is that a First Minister’s meeting was held on February 14th, where the Federal government consulted with the Premiers of the provinces on the potential use of the Emergencies Act. You’re generally aware of that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m aware that that took place, yes. That there was a meeting of the First Ministers on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-06

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you have any knowledge of whether Premier Kenney was provided with advanced notice of that First Minister’s meeting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I personally was not involved in the conversations, but I’m aware and have viewed information from our Premier’s office and his Chief of Staff that outlines the fact that the Premier was not provided with advanced notice. There’s normally a process for engaging in the setting of First Minister’s meetings, which will often be a week or more in advance, with agendas and topics. The information provided from our Premier’s office is that there was no advance notice and there was no advance notice of topic, there was no time to gather information or brief the Premier on the Emergencies Act because it was unclear. We didn’t have notice of that being the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- meeting on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you very much, Mr. Degrand. Those are all my questions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-26

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Well I think we can take the morning break at this point. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back to proceed with the primary examination and cross- examination. So 15-minute break.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-01

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée for 15 minutes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-06

Upon recessing at 11:09 a.m.

Upon resuming at 11:24 a.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

Order. À l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-10

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

You’re okay?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-13

ADM MARLIN DEGRAND, Resumed

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. First I’d like to call on the Government of Canada, please.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-16

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Degrand, I’m Mr. Brendan van Niejenhuis. I’m one of the lawyers for the government of Canada in this matter.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Sir, in response to the series of questions you were just asked about whether Premier Kenney was consulted about the setting of the First Minister’s meeting, I believe you said that this was the information available to you from the Premier’s office? Is that right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that is not information that we have seen under oath or affirmation? Is that fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I could -- I will assume that’s the case. I’ve not bee following all the proceedings. My apologies.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You’re not aware of that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not aware of that, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you, yourself, were not, I take it, present at the First Minister’s meeting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And likewise, you were not personally present for Premier Kenney’s telephone conversations with the Minister of Public Safety, for example?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-18

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Or the Prime Minister; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And there’s nothing you’re aware of that disables former Premier Kenney from swearing his own affidavit about these matters?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not familiar enough with the proceeding to even comment on that, but no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-25

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You’re not aware of anything that disables him from testifying before this Commission, should he had wished to do so?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-27

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

This is Stephanie Bowes. Counsel for Alberta. I think we’re getting into asking this witness a legal question about whether or not there’s anything that prevents the former Premier from swearing an affidavit.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

I’m not sure it’s a legal question. I’m wondering if the witness is aware of anything that disables the former Premier from doing so.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well and actually, with all due respect, actually I would suggest that I’m not a lawyer and I wouldn’t actually probably be qualified for that. I’m not aware of that, but there could very well be things there that I’m not aware of.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. Fair enough. Let’s turn to you, sir. You were an Assistant Commissioner of the RCMP until 2018? Is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And so you understand while here what Deputy Commissioner Zablocki and the other RCMP officers involved in the Coutts blockade went through; yes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have a sense of it. I was obviously not on the ground, but -- and I was not operational at the time, but I have previous experiences that would certainly inform on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you respect Deputy Commission Zablocki and his service in the discharge of his duties in respect of Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-26

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And everywhere K Division of the RCMP policed the Province of Alberta during these events; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, so I have a great deal of respect for Commissioner Zablocki and his command team.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You became an Assistant Deputy Minister with Alberta Justice in 2018, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s actually not quite correct. I started as an executive -- my apologies; you would have no way of knowing this, sir, so I started as an Executive Director. So as sort of -- I reported to the Assistant Deputy Minister at the time, Bill Sweeney, and I became the ADM in 2021. Sorry; I just want to be factually accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

No, no, I appreciate that. Just going with ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. No, of course you would have no way to know that, so...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You swore the Province’s Institutional report in this proceeding as well, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And we’ll come back to that. Now, in the Province of Alberta this situation, if I can call it that, began really on January the 29th; is that accurate?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, from memory, that’s ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-28

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

In terms of the beginnings of the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- the slow roll, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if we go to ALB00001010, at page 2. Just pull up the initial report about it to you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If you go down to page 2, please. You see that -- I take it it’s Peter Tewfik, I think, reporting to you about the blockage of the roads north and south to the Coutts border, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. That would be now- Chief Superintendent -- I’m not sure if he was at the time -- Peter Tewfik with the RCMP.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay, okay. And it says in the second-last -- subsequent paragraph there: “The organizers...have made calls to [the] participants to move their vehicles but the message has been ignored.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And strategies are being worked on to get those who are participating in the stoppage to get roadways moving again, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-25

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. If we go up to the first page, you see a report; moving just a little further up the page, there’s a report on the officers who are deployed. Just to the top, please. There we go. And you see the report from Jason Delaney to Rick Gardner, is that from the Alberta Sheriffs; you’ve got 12 members deployed at Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah, that’s on the 29th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And three of them had been reassigned from Coaldale, two reassigned from Redcliff and two are sent in from Lethbridge on overtime, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Three from Coaldale, two from Coutts on the first day shift, and then the evening, yeah, three from Coutts, two reassigned from Redcliff and two from overtime, yeah, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And the RCMP’s supplying 25, CBSA a dozen, and the Canadian Pacific Railway Police and an off -- a single officer.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what it says. Yes, correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Can we go to ALB00001312, page 2. If we just go to page 2, please. This will be a Tweet from the Premier issued on -- or Tweeted on January the 30th, it says: “The blockade of the Coutts border crossing violates the Alberta Traffic Safety Act. [It’s] causing significant inconvenience for lawful motorists and can dangerously impede movement of emergency service vehicles. This blockade must end.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-23

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if you’d flip over to page 3, you’ll see that he issues a longer statement which is to the -- which is really to the same effect, yes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And this had no effect on the Coutts process -- this had no immediate effect on the Coutts protest, did it?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I -- it would be difficult for me to say what individualized effect it had, but, ultimately, we still had a blockade.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You still had a blockade. Okay. Can we go to ALB00001257, please? And this is a report which comes to you. If you could just move down the page, please? A bit further down, there we go. And you see it’s being reported to you now Tuesday the 1st of February, that you’re receiving information about new blockades on the highway by Fort Macleod, on Highway 3 by Pincher Creek, and calls to block Highway 43 West of Grand Prairie, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And did you interpret those as being a blockade sympathetic in spirit to the blockades at Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If they in fact were accurate, that would’ve been the assumption that was being made. But we just were making sure that that information was passed on to the RCMP, who were also hearing that. And I believe the -- at least two of the three might’ve had some activity, but it was resolved reasonably quickly.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go to ALB1263, please; ALB00001263. This is a February 1st intelligence assessment provided to you, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And just want to make a few highlights here of what is brought to your attention, as well as that of some of your colleagues, from PSIO; that’s the Provincial Security Office?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s the Provincial Security Intelligence Office.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you. So the first point is that there doesn’t appear to be centralized leadership at this blockade, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-23

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

It emerged from the so-called Freedom Convoy Movement, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Emerged from in the sense that it’s inspired by and in support of, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if we go to item b: “There [doesn’t] appear to be any overt direction being given between the Coutts blockade and Ottawa ‘Freedom Convoy’ organizers.” Although this is possible, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Anything’s possible, but there was no information or intelligence to support that. Although that, of course, was one of the things that our -- the law enforcement agencies was lucky to determine.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. It refers, in the last sentence, under b there to be: “...one of the spin-off support events for the Ottawa convoy that gained its own momentum and now appears to be self-supporting.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yeah. “Individuals outside of the blockade location appear to be acting as entrepreneurs in organizing support and logistics.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what the information intelligence as being reported to me was; of course I relied on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. If you go further down the page, you see already that there are: “Individuals on pro-blockade social media groups...organizing phone campaigns to threaten tow companies with financial repercussions, and to set up boycotts of companies they believe have acted in support of [the] police.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Is that a serious concern to you at that point already?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was because it was, of course, one of those factors that was limiting the cooperation that the RCMP were able to gain from that industry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go down the page further then to spin-off actions, there’s: “Social media comments [calling on] blockade supporters to block in police to prevent them from removing vehicles from the...site.” Correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, those are individual comments that were out there, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And you’re also hearing from your: “Law enforcement partners...that support convoys have bypassed (or...broken through) police blockades to deliver [supplies].” Yeah?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct. There was even reports of vehicles, such as farm implements and tractors, coming across country over -- instead of on road to get to the site. It’s a very open area and it’s very difficult to contain and secure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

The PSIO was reporting that social media messages are: “...promoting a decentralized blockade of highways throughout Alberta.” Yes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there were individuals out there calling for spontaneous action around the province in support of the blockade. Very little materialized other than the main concerns that emerged in Edmonton and Calgary, although as I indicated earlier, there were some small ones; I think you saw them, at Fort Macleod, in Taber, like I mentioned earlier, and a few others.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go just to the very bottom of the page now and see the last section here. “Intelligence Gaps”; do you see that section?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And the to -- this refers to areas where there just isn’t visibility, from an intelligence perspective, as to the identity of the leaders and their level of influence at the blockade site, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah. It was very difficult to find true, defined leadership.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-07

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you’ve got an intelligence gap about how much support is likely to manifest in the real world from the calls for decentralized blockade action.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Got it. Let’s go now, please, to ALB00001620. This is a February 1st report concerning what’s referred to as a brawl near the blockade.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Are you familiar with that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think know which one you’re referencing but I’ll...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Did you happen to observe the testimony of Mr. Van Huigenbos?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I did not actually, sir. Sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-24

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. If you go down the page, it says that you’re reporting here that you assume others are well aware of this, but if you go down the page, we’ll just see what’s reported out to you. Here we go. And this is a report about how the - - if you look at the third sentence: “The crowd had [became] increasingly hostile at [and] made threats against...members [that is law enforcement members] at the checkpoint, to the point where they surrounded the members.” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-26

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And the protesters pushed through the vehicles with their vehicles and collided with vehicles travelling northbound on Highway 14?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's -- it is my understanding of it is the officers at this -- at the checkpoint moved their vehicles to avoid any collision and then vehicles from the checkpoint began to traverse southward. At least one was in the northbound lane and collided with another vehicle that was northbound in the northbound lane, and that is when -- the reference to the brawl is there was a confrontation that ensued between the participants in the collision, that the RCMP and sheriffs on scene had to break up.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yes, and I know you didn't have a chance to observe it, but when we were here with Mr. Van Huigenbos, I believe we watched a video of that incident taken by the driver.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, sorry, I haven't seen that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-28

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Well, you can go back and watch ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I will. Thank you, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-04

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go now please to ALB00001313? This will be a February 2nd report, sir, on the social media intelligence work ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

In this case, you'll see that you're being informed that from a web and social media perspective, the term bear hug is a rising search query. Do you see that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. I think that was information from other Ministries. Deputy Ministers were receiving intelligence that over various social media platforms, I think Facebook and others, that people were calling for a bear hug, which was a call to sort of obstruct traffic throughout the province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go to ALB00001611, this is still on the 2nd of February and it's reporting on events in Calgary also associated with this phrase bear hug.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Just go down the page. There we go. So this is a report coming in about -- with respect to an, ""Operation Bear Hug" calling for truckers to block major highways in Alberta..." And at the top there's an Operation Bear Hug in Calgary intended to support the convoy on the 5th of February, which is the upcoming weekend; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah. I guess it's important to ensure that it's -- this is characterised as aspirational intelligence. These are people that are trying to develop these things. I don't think we ever developed significant intelligence in this area, but certainly there were some sporadic and small-scale events.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You'll see in that second paragraph that there's a, whatever you want to call it, forward-looking intelligence that there's a plan to gather near the Minister's house?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if you go down the page a bit, just to scan through it, you'll see that there's events being reported on -- in the Southern Region, North Central, Fort McMurray Regions and Peace Region; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the -- if you're looking at the North Central Region, those are unconfirmed reports, and then Peace Region, again, unconfirmed reports of activity around there, or plans, a planned activity.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Those were calls, yeah. That's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

This term "bear hug", are you familiar with that term as having been promoted by an outfit called Canada Unity and a gentleman by the names James Bauder?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not actually, no, I'm sorry. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

That's fair enough. At any rate, it's clear by February the 2nd when you're receiving these reports that there's the potential for police resources becoming somewhat stretched in the province; is that fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely, depending on how things manifest themselves and evolve, but that's certainly the point of the intelligence was to make police aware.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And the RCMP is police of jurisdiction under contract with the Province of Alberta are responsible to police the whole of the province and not just Coutts; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, although there are, as I indicated earlier, municipal forces in Lacombe, for instance, in Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, et cetera.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Absolutely. Fair enough. Aside from the municipal police services.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, and the First Nation Services. That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go to ALB -- go back to ALB00000543, please? This will be the letter from Deputy Commissioner ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, okay. Yeah, the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-04

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. So if we just move down the page, and the end of the first paragraph, do you see -- well, you told us that you greatly respect Deputy Commissioner Zablocki's judgment as a police officer; fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, sir, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you see that Deputy Commissioner Zablocki indicates in the last sentence of the first paragraph that, "This situation does, in my opinion, constitute an emergency in the province of Alberta."

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see that, yes, correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And do you consider that a reasonable assessment on his part?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Insofar as it's pertaining to the Provincial Police Services Agreement, yes. And I guess there's some context there, sir, in the sense that the Provincial Police Services Agreement under Article 9 envisions situations which would require the movement of resources to support major events, emergencies, et cetera, as defined -- as they pertain to that Act -- or that agreement, that contract, if you will. It's a little different than, say, perhaps our provincial Emergency Act or perhaps the Federal Act, but I'm ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I just don't want to conflate the two different definitions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

No, that's fair enough. If you look at the second paragraph, he refers to this urgent and critical situation being what warrants him requesting the extraordinary application of the emergency provisions in the agreements; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah, you betcha.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that is going to involve bringing in -- or transferring in more RCMP officers from places other than Alberta; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not only that, but also movement of officers within Alberta from different business lines to -- because there are provincial policing business lines. There are also municipal business lines and federal lines. And it would allow him to dip into those resources as well as resources external to the province, to augment his provincial police service and give them the resources they need to manage the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to ALB00001177? And if you bring them in from other provinces particularly though, what it means is you've got less police available in those provinces to police those jurisdictions; fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. When we receive such requests for our officers as well, one of the first questions we ask is, of course, what is the impact on core policing and it's up to the commanding officer of that division that's sending them to determine whether those can be sent in a manner that's safe.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And here you're reporting about the information you've received from provincial colleague in British Columbia about the planned events there; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Those were the intelligence pieces that they were hearing, that's correct. And they were hearing aspirational information as well around Saskatchewan and Manitoba, I believe, in that conversation I had with my colleague.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And all three of those are provinces which also rely upon the RCMP as a primary police of jurisdiction outside of those municipalities large enough to have their own service?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And so those protests could likewise draw exceptionally on local resources in order to maintain order if that had to be done by the RCMP; fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If they materialise to certain levels, I'm sure they could, but I'm not sure whether they did or not.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to ALB00000528, please? The bottom of the page, please. I might have the wrong reference, so never mind. You became aware that there were protests planned for Edmonton the weekend of February 4th and 5th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that sounds right, sir. Yeah, it does, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And a considerable number of vehicles, I think several thousand showed up according to the Institutional Report?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah, there's multiple points of origin and they converged in Edmonton there and the Edmonton Police, the sheriffs working with assistance from the RCMP were tasked with managing that event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

February 4th is the Friday heading into this weekend, I think?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's -- yeah, from memory, that sounds right.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Now did you have an opportunity to hear Mayor Willett testify yesterday?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I did not, sir. I've been kind of careful to avoid too much just because I didn't want to colour my own opportunity here and ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

I'm sure you have other things to do as well, so let's go -- we heard from Mayor Willett -- if we could call up COU00000016. We heard Mayor Willett testify yesterday about his perspective on the ground really, from the ground level at Coutts.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And this will be a text exchange with Minister Sawhney that he tendered ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- into evidence yesterday ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- through Commission Counsel. Could we go to page 7, please? Here we see an indication from him on February 4th that an Artur Pawlowski had showed up and fired everyone up at the Coutts protest site to convince them to stay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I actually am aware of that event, yes, from the RCMP's reporting, not from this conversation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-24

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to PB.CAN.00001835? This is the multimedia file that we had yesterday. And I'm going to ask to play this from --- (VIDEO PLAYBACK)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- the 2:07 mark until 4:18. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you. Have you seen that speech before by Artur Pawlowski?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I haven't actually.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Do you hear that he is singling out Premier Kenney as the source of the problem and I believe he referred to Kenney's mafia?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's what I heard, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And he said, "This is our Alamo," referring I take it to a -- the standoff at the Alamo in Texas?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's what I assume the reference.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And he points to the international attention that has been gathered and says, "That's power"; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to COU00000016? This similarly we heard from Mayor Willett about, and it is the same series of text exchanges, and I just want to address one other factual issue that was circulating.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-23

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Page 9. Okay. You see he refers here in this instant message, again, with Minister Sawhney, to a gentleman named Paul Brandt; do you see that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I do, sir, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And he's referring to a Rebel News story and saying that, "In my opinion Paul Brandt should post a clarification on the Rebel news story that he helicoptered in aid." Familiar with that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm familiar with the -- this story, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Or the rumour about that, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go down the page? And you see that Mayor Willett indicates that that's not in fact true, that this photograph that was circulating of Paul Brandt was five years old; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Correct. That's what it says there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Paul Brandt is a -- just for the benefit of whoever doesn't know, is a well-known internationally successful country musician from Alberta; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And there was a rumour in fact that he was going to come and perform a concert in support of the Coutts blockaders; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That was one of the two rumours that we heard involving Mr. Brandt.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if we go to page 13, you see Minister Sawhney still on the next day, February the 6th, she's asking, "Was food dropped off to the protesters by helicopter?" Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yeah, and that's the character of the rumour that was going on about Paul Brandt, that he had dropped off food by helicopter; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, I don't see his name on this text, but certainly that was one of the rumours. Whether there was other rumours that the Minister was hearing about other helicopter drops, there -- and I'm not even sure, I think by this point, the NOTAM or the Notice to Airmen restricting air space might have been in place as well, so that might have been -- I don't want to put myself in the mind of the Minister as to what she was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Sure. According to Mayor Willett at least, he says, "Rebel rented a chopper and made a video."

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

It's what circulated. Is that accord with your recollection of what happened there?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

See, I'm not familiar with any information around Rebel News renting a chopper, but certainly that's the post from the -- that was from the mayor.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-28

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we can go to ALB00001444? And I just want to suggest at any rate that what - - this notion about Paul Brandt renting a helicopter, coming to drop off food, putting on a concert, that was disinformation; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe it was. We actually conveyed that to the RCMP, and they had conversations with Mr. Brandt's personnel, and they claimed they -- they indicated that they have no intention of providing a concert there and did not violate the NOTAM.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And if you go to the bottom of this page, this is a report to you from your PSIO Director; yes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

On February 6th, and at that point, at 3:27 in the afternoon, he is saying that there's no credible public information confirming this Brandt helicopter story, but it appears plausible based on the aircraft itself. I'm sorry ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, we share the same speed of talking, sir. Sorry. Yes, I do read that. There's -- that's based on the photograph that was received. What I was hearing from Mr. McAuley was that there's nothing to state that this actually happened. The helicopter in the picture appears consistent with that used by Mr. Brandt, but there's nothing to indicate, you know, whether he did what was being rumoured to have been done, that is resupply. And even if that was the case, it would appear that it would have taken place prior to any Notice to Airmen restrictions on the airspace being in place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yes, okay. And that's the NOTAM that's referred to there, the Notice to Airmen?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, that's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-07

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to ALB00001626? This is a report to you raised for your attention, I think again on February the 7th now, so the Monday.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

February 7th. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Monday. Monday it is. If you go down to the bottom indication that's being forwarded up to you, "A regional stakeholder raised the following concern: there is the risk [that] many of the protesters [referring to Coutts] are armed with firearms kept in their tractor trailers and trucks. Violence is possible." Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, that's what came to me from -- ultimately, through the -- through Mr. Buffin.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-24

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that if -- and that proved to be the case, ultimately; did it not?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not sure where the firearms were found, if there were any found in trucks, in cabs, but certainly, ultimately, firearms were found and seized there. This was early information that I, of course, immediately passed along to the RCMP who were managing the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-28

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. We'll hear from Deputy Commissioner Zablocki about that when he testifies - --

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

This in any event, if true, as it proved to be, made it a very dangerous situation and raised serious officer safety and public safety risks?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, if -- yeah, absolutely. The presence of firearms at any dispute of this nature could potentially be dangerous, and as any event that the police deal with.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

On February the 7th, are you aware that Artur Pawlowski was arrested and charged with offences including mischief over $5,000 and interrupting the operation of critical infrastructure?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to ALB00001087? This is February the 9th. It's being reported up to you that sheriffs, Alberta sheriffs sprayed two protesters with, that’s pepper spray.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that that’s because two protesters reportedly moved towards the sheriff’s sergeants and refused warnings to stop; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. I do have a bit more information that was developed since that initial sort of heads-up, if you will. It did appear that the individuals -- I’d better be careful because I don’t want to conflate two incidents.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So we’ll leave it at that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-07

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Maybe not -- really just the raw fact that this was reported to you, is all I’m asking.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

In terms of your state of mind at the moment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. I apologize, yeah, that’s probably the best. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And go to ALB00001307. Can we go to the bottom email, please? This is an email reporting in on protests occurring that Friday night and over the weekend at the Calgary Remand Centre.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Sorry; the very bottom, please, page 4. Okay. Scheduled protest at the Calgary Remand Centre; are you aware of those protests in sympathy with Artur Pawlowski?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I was, that it was in relation to Mr. Pawlowski.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And they ended up continuing for seven straight days.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That sounds right. I don’t have that specific number in my memory.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Can we go to the Institutional Report, ALB.IR.00000001? And to page 18, please? Okay. This is indicating -- first of all, go down the page. I think we’re looking for the weekend of February 12 and 13. Maybe just keep going, I may have the page wrong. Yeah, please continue. There we go, right between 12 and 13. The City of Edmonton obtained an injunction for the weekend of February 12 and 13 as a result of the prior weekend’s events; yes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not sure what their motivation was, but certainly in anticipation of the events that they were seeing being planned from there, they obtained an injunction for that weekend, that’s for sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Can you go to paragraph 80 on this page? You’ll see there’s a report of about 840 vehicles in Edmonton, down from 3,000 the weekend before. But what I’m concerned about here is at the end of the paragraph: “...200 protestors from the ‘Liberty’ march moved towards the counter- protesters in an apparent attempt to remove them...” Right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there was a counter- protest that evolved that was going to confront the protesters and stop them from doing -- demonstrating and doing their drive- through. There was going to be a confrontation, and the Edmonton Police Service reports that they intervened and separated the parties and allowed for the protest to carry on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And the risk of violence dramatically escalates when you’re dealing with a counter-protest situation; is that fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If allowed to come to physical contact with each other it’s much more difficult to keep it peaceful.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Can we go to COU0000002? This would be one of the last exchanges I want to go to with respect to Mayor Willett, who testified yesterday.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And this is an exchange with Bill Graveland. And it’ll be page 3, please.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And it is dated as of February 12th, so two days before the Emergencies Act. And move down the page. All right. You see there, Mayor Willett says: “Good morning, Bill.” And he refers to, you know: “...need to find someone in a protected position to call these guys what they are, Domestic Terrorists.” Do you see that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And Mr. Graveland says: “Honestly, I had a number of run in’s several years ago with the Freemen on the land. After an unpleasant exchange with some of them at the saloon, I realized that’s likely what they are. Sorry you’re going through this.” Do you see that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see that. That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And do you know what “Freemen on the land” refers to?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I’m familiar with the term.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

It’s been found, and I think by Associate Chief Justice Rooke, and described as an organized method of disrupting court operations and frustrating the legal rights of governments, corporations, and individuals.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the tactic is organized, that’s for sure. Yeah, Justice Rooke’s deliberation ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yeah, he has a very well-known decision that you may be familiar with from 2012 on that point.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’ll take your work for it, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-03

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

That’s fine, you can take my word for that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we go to PB.CAN.00001834? (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And, sir, I’ll ask if we can go to -- well, this is a decision issued one week ago today ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- by Associate Chief Justice Rooke, and if we can go to the last page, page 16 at paragraph 69 and 70.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

I just want to point out to you for your reaction that the view of Associate Chief Justice Rooke expressed last week, in paragraph 70 is that the litigation abuse he’s describing here, “...is part of a broader pattern.” In that: “The law in Alberta is not adequate to control abusive litigants.” Do you see that? Paragraph 70 in the middle.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And that’s a -- well, I won’t ask you to comment on your agreement with the Court. Could we go, now, to February the 14th. You understand that on February 14th, the arrests occurred at Coutts, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Approximately at 2:00 p.m. that day, Mountain Time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I thought it was 2:00 a.m., sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So, like, into the evening of the 13th and -- sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

At approximately 7:00 a.m. Mountain Time, Premier Kenney attended the First Ministers meeting, which you referred to earlier.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Can we go to SAS00000120? These are the notes produced by the Government of Saskatchewan with respect to the statements made at that meeting. We’ve got only what is rehearsed into the Institutional Report from Alberta. So I just want to -- thank you. If we go down to the bottom of this page where there’s notes with respect to Premier Kenney’s statements, you see the last few lines there, this is Jason Kenney speaking from about ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

So just looking at the last comments that are attributed in here: “See it as very serious provocation. Could prove a net negative. PJs can compel...tow drivers. Please stop the trucker vaccine mandate. Language provocation. Don’t quibble if necessary.” Do you have any awareness of what was -- what ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I could just have one moment?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Can I quickly read through this? (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if we can then go to SSM.NSC.CAN00002941? And I’ll... Yes, Commissioner, I know I’m right at the edge. I’ll probably be about two or three minutes, if that’s acceptable?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-23

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Yeah, I don’t think you’re done.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-28

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

So -- on my count, but ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-03

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

But I do appreciate your honesty with this.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

I’ll keep my mouth shut in the future when I guess wrong.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-08

The Clerk (POEC)

Apologies, counsel; could you please repeat that doc ID?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-10

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I have you having another five minutes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-12

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Just so you know.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-15

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

All right. And so it’s SSM.CAN ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-16

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Another -- well, let’s see. No, another four minutes; sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-18

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

SSM.NSC.CAN.00002941. And this is another set of notes produced in -- from the Mr. Klau (phonetic), ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- who will testify in front of this Commission. (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-25

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

If we go to page 22, and I’m sorry these are sideways. It’s a limitation of the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- product, I think. And can you scroll down the page? There were go.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-04

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Doi you see on the right-hand side of Mr. Klau’s (phonetic) notes, with respect to Mr. Kenney’s statements during the First Minister’s meeting; do you want to just take a look at that for a moment?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-09

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Since I have the luxury of four minutes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. No, I understand, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And so you see that others have it here, again this word “quibble”. Mr. Klau has written, attributed to Mr. Kenney, “I don’t quibble with the use of the Act, but other ways to reduce tensions.” Do you see that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And in fairness to you, you’re not able to speak to whether or not that’s an accurate reflection of what Premier Kenney said because you weren’t present; fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And this meeting occurs approximately -- well, some hours after the RCMP arrests are made at Coutts; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-04

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And it occurs in a context where -- and I’ll just ask you if you’re aware of this - - approximately 2,000 firearms were missing, having been stolen in a trailer in Peterborough, Ontario, which had not been recovered for some days.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not aware of that, actually.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Fair enough. We’ll deal with it in other evidence. At any rate, the Act is invoked at approximately 4:30 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Now, just coming back briefly to some of the content of the institutional report, if we could pull that up for just a couple of last questions, ALB.IR.0000001, to page 7. Paragraph 34. I think there’s a disjoint in the numbering. You can’t speak to and were not present for Premier Kenney’s calls with Minister Mendicino; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if you look at page 8, paragraph 38, you likewise, I take it, were not present for Minister McIver’s call with Minister Blair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. I’m relying on the information that we provided with the Institutional Report on both cases.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yes. And again, that information is provided -- is not provided under oath other than to the extent that your affidavit says you have heard it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And page 9, then, please. Again, it’s paragraph 43. And I take it I’ll get the same answer, but you were not present for this further call between Premier Kenney and Minister Mendicino?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-12

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if we go to page 3, finally, paragraphs 2 and 3, you see there it is stated or asserted that in the end of paragraph 2 Alberta received “virtually no consultation from Canada in its decision to invoke the Emergencies Act as applicable to Alberta and the entirety of the country.” Fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-18

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that’s really a matter of -- that’s characterization.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-25

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Is that your characterization or is that the province’s position?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That would be the province’s position, and certainly from my personal experience, I received no consultation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Well, we’ve heard areas where you were engaged with other colleagues.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Post. That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-07

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Paragraph 3, you say -- at the end of that paragraph: “...Canada failed to provide any assistance upon Alberta’s request to simply borrow equipment from them.” And is that how you would encapsulate the dialogue that you were engaged in with Transport Canada and others?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, sir. I’m not sure that it would be fair to say they didn’t try. I would suggest, though, that we received no assistance.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. Well, we’ll hear from the others about that. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you very much, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-24

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the Convoy Organizers.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-25

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Good morning, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning, or good afternoon. How are you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Oh, good afternoon. Right.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I had to check. Sorry, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

My name’s Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for Freedom Corp, which represents the protestors that were in Ottawa only, nobody at Coutts, between January and February ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

--- of 2022. So I just want to dive right in. So -- and I don’t want to ask for anything subject to Criminal Code sealing orders or things and just based on what I know from the public record about this group that ended up being arrested at the border in Coutts area with respect to the conspiracy to commit murder and all of that. It’s my understanding that the RCMP undercover agents -- and this is based on the public record -- were involved with those -- that group from a very early point. Is that fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think that -- I wouldn’t have that kind of tactical level of information, so I honestly don’t have knowledge of that. You would probably be better ask that of the Deputy Commissioner. And I’m not trying to avoid. I just sincerely was not briefed at that level of detail.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-21

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Was it your understanding that that group, their plot was to have two females smuggle in in a hockey bag a whole bunch of guns into the protest? Is that what your understanding was?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have actually no understanding of the undercover operations or the intelligence- gathering operations of the RCMP. The level of detail that I was briefed at was really of the existence of threats within the group that were potentially more violent and that they had intelligence to indicate that they were armed and planning to do violence in relation to the police should any enforcement action take place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. But are you, after the fact, aware that the two females that they were intending to have smuggle in these firearms were actually two undercover RCMP officers?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I apologize. I just have no detail in terms of the actual criminal file or the investigation itself. Quite carefully avoided that level of interaction with the police and kept it at a higher level.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

To your knowledge, before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, was this investigation and this operation with respect to these gentlemen who were arrested at Coutts for conspiracy to commit murder -- was it ever relayed to the federal executive political branch, that is, Cabinet? Are you aware if that was, before the invocation?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Was that information, that this group was there, relayed to the federal executive?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yeah, the federal executive branch in the sense of the political branch of government with respect to elected Ministers.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I wouldn’t have any knowledge of that. That would be a conversation probably at the federal level of the RCMP, and certainly not one I was privy to or was briefed on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you. And it’s fair to say that with Coutts, of course, none of the provisions under the Emergencies Act that were invoked and the subsequent Orders in Council -- none of them were used in respect to Coutts, were they?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-06

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And to your knowledge, none of the protestors at Coutts had any of their accounts frozen or anything like that under the orders.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t have any knowledge of that. I can’t say that it didn’t happen. I just don’t know.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. Now, to your knowledge, were you aware of when the RCMP finally mobilized their national Public Enforcement Units to go to Ottawa? They actually brought in other officers from B.C. and other folks. Were you apprised of when that happened?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There was a -- similar to the Article 9 provisions that we spoke to earlier, there was another request for support to the national response to the situation in Ottawa. And that came right after the weekend, so I want to say 15th, 16th, somewhere in that range. And I was aware that the RCMP, along with the Calgary Police and the Edmonton Police, were providing officers to support the Ottawa Police Service in their efforts.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you agree with me that that request, it doesn’t require the Emergencies Act to be invoked. This is a thing that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

--- can be done. And it could have been done at any time between when the protests started in Ottawa to when it was asked; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s used at any time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And for whatever reason, the RCMP in Ottawa never asked for all of these units, which could have easily been made available and sent to Ottawa to assist with resources -- they never asked for them before the 15th, did they?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was not aware of any requests at all before that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And you’ve watched some of this hearing. The biggest issue in Ottawa was resources. And it was some of the evidence from poor Chief Sloly, who had this thrown on him, that he was asking the RCMP for resources and Commission Lucki said that, “You’ve got what you’ve got”. But all times, is it fair that Commissioner Lucki could have asked -- made a request like that was made on the 15th and asked for these officers to come to Ottawa to assist.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The provisions of the Police Services Agreement remain in place to this day and have been since 2012 when we signed the agreement, so they could have been asked for. I won’t speculate as to what our response would have been.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-28

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yeah. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-06

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Next is the JCCF, and yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-08

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALAN HONNER

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Good morning, sir. My name is Alan Honner. I am a lawyer from the Democracy Fund.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning. Pleased to meet you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-13

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And pardon me. It's good afternoon, as ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-15

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

--- just pointed out. Can we please pull up ALB.0000383.0001? Just while we're waiting for that to come up, you were asked about former Premier Jason Kennedy -- or Kenney earlier today. And when the document comes up, I think what it'll show is a letter dated February 15th, 2022 from the prime minister to then Premier Jason Kenney. Have you seen this document before?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I could scroll through it a tiny bit more, maybe reduce the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-26

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Yes. Please, just direct the Registrar.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, sorry. If we could maybe just -- sorry, thank you. Yeah, I believe I've examined this document.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-02

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Thank you. So if we can just look at the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-05

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

If we can just look at the first paragraph on the second page -- it's before us right now - - we see the prime minister saying that: "We are facing significant economic disruptions with the breakdown of supply chains. This is costing Canadians their jobs and undermining our economic and national security with potential significant impacts on the health and safety of Canadians." Did Premier -- former Premier Jason Kenney or anyone else ever tell you -- anyone else from the government -- ever explain to you what the prime minister meant by this reference to potential significant impacts on the health and safety of Canadians?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not familiar with any explanation of the prime minister's thoughts behind that from anyone.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-23

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, thank you. Can we please pull up ALB00001517.0001? And excuse me for just a moment, please. My sincere apologies. I just had a slight domestic emergency here. There we go.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-26

The Registrar (POEC)

We have the audio now, sir? Go ahead.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-03

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, thank you. So earlier, you told us that Alberta had formally requested assistance from the federal government, but did not receive any formal response, and eventually -- this is in respect to tow trucks -- and eventually, Alberta just obtained its own equipment?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-05

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

We're looking at an email here from Peter Lemieux to you and others about equipment Alberta procured to support the RCMP operation at Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-12

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And who is Peter Lemieux?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Peter Lemieux is the Acting Executive Director of the Provincial Security and Intelligence Office. And during this time, he was the individual who I tasked as the lead in the procurement of that equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-17

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay. And this equipment was procured on February 13th, 2022?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was procured over a couple of days, and I think ultimately, all of it was in place by the 14th or 15th -- I think 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-23

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Well, if you just scroll down a little bit, it says here ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-26

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

--- "On February 13th, 2022, Government of Alberta procured the following equipment."

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. I saw that in the note from Peter earlier. I think a better term for "on" February 13th would have been "by" February 13th. We had actually acquired a small amount of that equipment earlier than that, and the last of it was procured, and then it was all in place, I believe, on the 14th, down south. Yeah, it was ready for deployment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-03

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Is this list of equipment reflective of the equipment that the RCMP needed?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Save two specialty vehicles, this was the exact equipment that we were told by the RCMP that they required if they were to have to execute an enforcement plan and tow all the vehicles at the border crossing.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-12

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And what were those other two vehicles that are not listed here?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There are some other documents that speak to them, but one is a tire service truck and a number of tires, and the other is a heavy-duty mechanic's truck with tools.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-18

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, thank you. And if we can just pull up PB.CAN.00001514? We saw this document earlier today. Just while we're waiting for it to be pulled up, it is an email to Rob Stewart.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-22

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

You recall seeing this email, correct? If we can just scroll down a little bit?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I've seen this earlier today. That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-02

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And if we can just scroll down a little bit more to where it says, "Alberta". So under the heading "Alberta", it says that the biggest operational challenge to date is procuring towing/wrecking equipment and skilled workers to operate the equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-04

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

By this point, you had most of that equipment, at least?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Could we scroll to the top again so I could confirm the date?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-13

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Yeah, of course.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I remember correctly, this is a review of a conversation that we had had earlier on in the day on the 13th, that being a conversation with myself, ADM Dakalbab Talal, and the public works -- government services representative. I can't recall who was there on that call. And at that point in time, we were in the process of procuring the equipment that we ultimately later on, by the 13th, by the end of the day, we had actually procured. So when you see the reference from Peter Lemieux to by the 13th we had it, the information that Talal in this message was referencing came from a point in time prior to us having finalized the purchase of the last of the equipment, so we were still looking for trucks when he and I had a conversation, and his reference to our conversation contained in this email to Rob Stewart is based on that sort of hind-dated information that we were still looking for it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-16

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Right. So that explains why the information in the document we're looking at isn't completely current?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. They're temporal in terms of the course of the day. They're relying on information that was provided at the start of the day, whereas the Peter Lemieux document references what we had by the end.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-07

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And by that point on February 13th, you had no idea that the federal government was about to invoke the Emergencies Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-11

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Thank you. If we can just pull up Document ALB.00001376.0001? And what we're looking at here is an email from Daniel Laville or Laville, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name. I'm sorry about that. But it's to you and some other people?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-15

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And I think it's actually -- it's being forwarded to you, and it's dated February 15th, 2022?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. Dan Laville is -- was the Communications Director for our ministry at the time and was forwarding to me a copy of an Alberta RCMP news release.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-25

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And that RCMP news release said that there are four people charged with conspiracy to commit murder, and they're listed here, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what it says.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-04

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And I appreciate you have limited information about this, and I appreciate that these are allegations, but can you tell us or do you have any idea who these people were allegedly conspiring to murder?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can't speak with certainty, because of course, I wasn’t part of the investigation, but it was my understanding it was police. But that is -- that would be third-party or speculative on my part, and I would want that to come out in evidence in court.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-09

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, thank you. Well, I'm not going to ask you to speculate. If we look a little bit -- if we look down this list, we see that there are nine other people. They are charged with mischief and possession of weapons for a dangerous person - - for a dangerous purpose.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-14

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay. So 13 people were charged in total. Can you -- yes, and can we look at ALB.IR.00000001? This is the Alberta Institutional Report.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-21

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And if we just go to page 8, paragraph 25. Okay, thank you very much. So this paragraph describes how the RCMP executed a warrant on three trailers, leading to the arrest of 13 individuals.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-25

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And those are clearly the same 13 individuals we just discussed?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s the reference, yes. That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-04

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And it says here that the warrant was executed before dawn.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-06

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Do you happen to know if it was executed before the first ministers’ meeting which took place on February the 14th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Now, I have to be careful and caveat my response in the sense that my understanding of the first ministers’ meeting is that is was, as articulated by counsel for the Government of Canada, somewhere around 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning. I was not party to that event. If the timing was as indicated by counsel, then it would have been before because my conversation with the deputy commissioner indicated it was in early morning hours, 2:30 or so in the morning, that the arrests took place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-12

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Oh, I see. Okay, thank you. And earlier in you mentioned the hour of 7:30 a.m. That’s when you found out about the warrant being executed; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, as I said, that was me having a conversation with the deputy commissioner.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-24

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Got it. Okay, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

And then -- and 7:30 is a rough estimate. I probably could go back on my phone and try and find the call but it was before normal business hours.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-27

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

It’s okay. I just wanted to make sure I understood. If we look down to paragraph 27 of the Institutional Report, it also says that the Emergencies Act was announced on the afternoon of February 14th and, based on your evidence and on the report, that was well after the RCMP successfully completed the seizure and arrests of these three -- 13 people and the offence-related property?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-02

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay. And you didn’t have any other information about threats at the time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time, just the intelligence I was receiving from the deputy commissioner around the fact that there was a volatile presence within the group that they were examining, and that they proved a threat or a risk. It was very generic at that high level, the types of conversations that I had with the deputy commissioner.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-12

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

The Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP, of course?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, Deputy Commissioner Zablocki.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-22

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

So nothing specific?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-24

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I think you’ve gone over your time, just -- so if you could wrap up pretty soon, I think you’re out of time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-25

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

If I can have 30 more seconds, Commissioner?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-28

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Thank you. So just one last point. You were shown a video of Arthur Pavlovsky. And am I correct in understanding or can you confirm that he was arrested for giving that speech when he was arrested on February 8th, 2022?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

He was arrested by the RCMP, and I know it was tied to his actions down at the blockade. I would probably want to defer to them as to the rationale, specifically around what led -- or what evidence they have that led them to cause them to arrest him and charge him.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-08

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, fair enough. But he was arrested on February the 8th, and he was held for bail, and he was denied for bail. He was denied bail on February 16th, 2022, but a judge from the Provincial Court of Justice; would you agree with that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t disagree with it. It sounds right. I just don’t have the dates in front of me. So yeah, that sounds right.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-18

Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay, thank you very much. Those are my questions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-21

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay, next, if we could call on the Ottawa Coalition of the Residents and Businesses.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-23

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

No questions, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay, next on the -- Windsor Police Service.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-26

Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)

So I apologize, no questions for Tom McRae for Windsor Police Service.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-28

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay, next is the Government of Saskatchewan.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-02

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MIKE MORRIS

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

Good morning, sir. It’s Mike Morris, counsel for the Government of Saskatchewan. I’m saying good morning because it’s still morning here and I think your internal clock’s probably still set to Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, good morning. Pleased to meet you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-09

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

I just have a few questions for you. Sir, I understand that in February of this year, you represented Alberta on the FPT Crime Prevention and Policing Committee; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the ADM level, that’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-15

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

Okay. And that would be a committee which is composed of officials from the federal, provincial, and territorial government; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-17

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

And, as such, that committee would include representatives from the Government of Saskatchewan, then; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-21

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

My understanding is that the committee met several times before the Public Order Emergency was proclaimed on February 14th; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-25

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

And my review of the material indicates that the committee met on February 1st, February 7th, and February 11th; does that accord with your understanding?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s sounds very correct, sir, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-04

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

And did you attend the meetings on the 1st, 7th, and 11th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I did, although I believe on the 7th there was deputy minister presence as well, and Associate Deputy Minister Dennis Cooley was there with me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-08

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

At any of those meetings, did federal officials indicate that the government was considering invoking the Emergencies Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-11

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

In your view, would the committee have been an appropriate forum to discuss whether it was advisable for the Federal Emergencies Act to be invoked?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think it would have been a very good initial forum to have initial conversations. Certainly, consultation, as I understand it to be envisioned, would be required at a much higher but, certainly, that would have been a very good starting point for that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-18

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

But in the end, you never had the opportunity to have those consultations, then; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, that’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-25

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

And just a couple more. In your experience with these FPT meetings, can they be convened on very short notice?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, they can, when required.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-01

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

And would that even include on weekends?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

In point of fact, it did later, but yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-05

Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)

Thank you very much, sir. Those are my questions for you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-07

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. And next, I’ll call on the Government of Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-10

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. STEPHANIE BOWES

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Good afternoon, Mr. Degrand. Good afternoon, Commissioner. My friends have covered quite a lot of ground with you. There’s just a few areas I want to cover off. And one of those areas deals with the timing of the execution of search warrants and arrests in Coutts, Alberta. I’ll ask if the clerk can please turn to ALB00001522.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-13

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

And this is an email dated early in the morning, 6:36 in the morning of February 14th from John Ferguson to Dwayne Lakusta and to you. Do you know who John Ferguson is?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, John Ferguson and was at that time the Assistant Commissioner in charge of contract operations for the Province of Alberta with the RCMP.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-24

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

And as far as you’re aware, he was involved in the law enforcement of the protest in Coutts?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, very much so, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 125 21-125-01

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Okay. And if we look at this email, we’ll see some events noted: " At approximately 23:50, pursuant to the above activity…" -- which is described in the paragraph above -- "…two suspects who are a part of the core protesters group and have been identified as part of the security cell were arrested." (As read) Now, I take this to be on February 13th; do you understand that to be the case as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 125 21-125-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I believe the 23:57 would have been on the 13th and then subsequent arrests after that -- after midnight were on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 125 21-125-13

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

And so then looking at the timing of those arrests, if we go down to the next paragraph: "On Monday, February 14th at approximately 01:00 hours, other key protesters within the security cell were also arrested." (As read). And then: "A search warrant was already executed at the saloon, the main meeting place for the security cell, was negative for weapons." (As read). And then again, a further paragraph down: "At approximately 03:00 hours, search warrants were executed at the residence in Coutts and the associated trailer." (As read). So all of these events involving the arrests and execution of search warrants at Coutts were occurring late on February 13th, very early on the morning of the 14th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 125 21-125-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Basically right at midnight and the early-morning hours to the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 126 21-126-09

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Thank you. Now I'd also like to turn back to record ALB -- I believe it's 00001573. And this is the letter from Deputy Commissioner Zablocki on February 3rd to Acting Minister Sonya Savage for the -- or, my apologies, it's from Minister Savage to Deputy Commissioner Zablocki.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 126 21-126-11

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Now the last sentence of that first paragraph reads, "In my opinion, this constitutes an emergency in the Province of Alberta under the Provincial Police Service Agreement." Now the Provincial Police Service Agreement is included as a document referenced in Alberta's Institutional Report before this Commission. I take it you're quite familiar ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 126 21-126-17

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

--- with that reference?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 126 21-126-28

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- if you could try and - --

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-01

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- slow down a bit for the translators, please?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-04

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

For sure. I'll take it you're quite familiar with that agreement?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-06

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Is there a definition of the word emergency in that agreement?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I actually have a copy of it with me, but I don't have it readily available, and I can't recall.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-12

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

You can't recall. Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. It is in our Institutional Report as well.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-16

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Right. I take it that your understanding is that the definition of the word emergency, as contemplated under the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-18

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

--- Provincial Police Service Agreement ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-22

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

--- is different from the word emergency under either the Federal Emergencies Act or Provincial Emergency Management Act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, absolutely, and the contemplation under the Provincial Police Services Agreement is around resources and the ability to marshal sufficient resources to manage extraordinary situations, whether they be, in this case, protests, but it could be fires, floods, or major events, such as a G8 or a G20 and the security events that come around that. So it is very different than an emergency as would be entailed under, say, the Alberta Emergency Act or the Federal Emergency Act.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 127 21-127-28

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

And you used that word extraordinary, which is a word that was also used in the letter from Deputy Commissioner Zablocki to Minister Savage asking for the deployment of RCMP officers under Section 9.1. To the best of your knowledge, was this the first time Article 9.1 had been used in Alberta for the deployment of RCMP officers?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 128 21-128-09

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

What other types of circumstances has that occurred before?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 128 21-128-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe we had that invoked during the fire response in Fort McMurray. We brought in officers from Newfoundland, B.C., Saskatchewan to support the provincial operations. I believe it's been used in the past for jail strikes and other natural disasters as well. It's been used for G8, G20 deployments across the country, Olympics, et cetera.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 128 21-128-18

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Okay. Thank you. And also in Alberta's Institutional Report, there's mention of other protest activity that occurred in other parts of Alberta during January and February 2022. And you've discussed that to some length with my friends already. What was Alberta's role with respect to other protest activity that was happening in the province?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 128 21-128-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So with the exception of protests around the legislature itself, operational response is solely with the police services of jurisdiction and we provide support through our sheriff's branch when requested and as needed. Our role is around coordination and intelligence sharing, in monitoring, providing advice to government, and ensuring that, to the best of our ability, every law enforcement agency is connected with each other and with ourselves and not caught at unawares with any intelligence that might exist in any one of the law enforcement entities in the province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 129 21-129-04

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

And you mentioned with exception to protest activity was taking ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 129 21-129-14

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

--- place around the legislature. Why is that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 129 21-129-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The Sheriff's Branch of my division is a specific task around security on the legislative precinct in the province and work very closely with the Edmonton Police Service on that, but they are charged with sort of the direct security on the leg itself. And so any protests involving activity, whether they be dismounted or foot activity on the legislature and on the roadways within the precinct are primarily managed through the Sheriff's Branch, until such point in time as it becomes clear that the protest is going to be non- peaceful or unlawful, and then the Edmonton Police comes in and assumes responsibility while our officers continue to work with them, but we do have a much more robust participation in manners on the legislative precinct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 129 21-129-19

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Did you become aware of any incident involving these protests at the legislature grounds in January and February that the Sheriff's Branch was not able to handle?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not that the Sheriff's Branch with the assistance of the EPS could not handle. They were all managed quite, I think, appropriately.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-08

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Okay. And one final record to take you to, that's ALB00000 -- or, sorry, 00002402.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-11

The Clerk (POEC)

Is that a multimedia file, Counsel?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-13

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

I don't believe so, no. No, it shouldn't be.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-14

The Clerk (POEC)

Ah, thank you. This is an executive notification. Developing situation. The Alberta Legislature Freedom Convoy February 26th, 2022. Now February 26, 2022 was after the Declaration of a Public Order Emergency under the Emergencies Act was revoked. Were you aware that, at this time, there were further protests that were occurring in and around Alberta?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, there were continued protests in Calgary specifically and Edmonton.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-25

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Did any police agency express to Alberta that they required anything beyond their standard policing powers to deal with any of these protest post Emergencies Act revocation?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 130 21-130-27

Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Degrand. Those are all my questions today.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-04

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. Any re- examination?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Two very brief points. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Jean-Simon Schoenholz for the Commission.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-09

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

First, I just want to make sure the record is clear on a point raised by my friends for the Convoy Organizers. If we could pull up the Institutional Report ALB.IR.00000001 and go to page 30 at paragraph 138? You'll recall my friend was asking you about the provision of provincial RCMP resources to the response in Ottawa. You remember that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And I think you mentioned it was on the 16th. You weren't terribly sure about the date. If you -- the first sentence here of ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- paragraph 138 says, "On February 18th..."

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

"...Commissioner Brenda Lucki of the RCMP requested that Alberta provide 42 officers to support efforts in Ottawa." Is that the request you were referring to?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 131 21-131-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's the request. I think I might have even said 15th in my earlier evidence, and I apologise. It's the 18th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 132 21-132-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. The only thing I -- other thing I wanted to ask you, my friend I believe for the JCCF was talking to you about that list of resources that you had acquired on February 13th. You remember that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 132 21-132-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I do, by the end of February 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 132 21-132-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And the point I wanted to make sure that we understood, I believe you had a meeting with the federal officials on the 13th. Are you aware whether or not the fact that those vehicles had been obtained on the 13th was made known to federal officials?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 132 21-132-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So and I was probably clumsy in my earlier explanation, so I'll try to clarify that. At the time of my earlier conversation with the federal officials, ADM Brosseau and others -- Russell and others, we had not yet acquired the bulk of the equipment. We had a small number that we had acquired and already shipped down. We were in midstream of acquiring some and it fell apart the day before, and we were in midstream that day of acquiring some, but we still hadn't secured them yet. So at the time of my conversation with ADM Brosseau, and they -- or ADM Talal Dakalbab. And I apologize, Talal; I know him but hope I’m not wrecking his name. But at the time of that conversation, we hadn’t yet acquired them. The reference in Peter Lemieux’s document was sometime down the road, stating that by the end -- by the 18th we had acquired -- or the 13th we had acquired them, because later on that afternoon, or later on that day, he -- his team was able to secure the purchase of the remainder of the vehicles. So that’s why, at the time of our conversation with the federal officials, we hadn’t secured them yet, and we were still seeking them. Later that day, we acquired them and post that day, the indication from Mr. Lemieux is by the 13th we’d acquired them, because by the end of that day, we had.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 132 21-132-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you know whether and when the federal officials would have been advised that that list ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 133 21-133-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- of resources had been acquired?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 133 21-133-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I don’t know. I honestly from memory I don’t recall when we had that conversation. I apologize. Should have that off the top of my head, and I don’t.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 133 21-133-20

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Those are all my questions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 133 21-133-24

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. Just on that, I have a couple of questions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 133 21-133-26

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Just on those -- the equipment you acquired, and I may have missed it in my notes. Did you -- had you arranged or secured the operators for all that equipment? I didn’t get that note.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 134 21-134-01

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

And I know it was a concern.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 134 21-134-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, we’d actually -- sir, we’d actually acquired a number of operators that could move vehicles around. We’d acquired a number of operators, like, a small number that could actually operate tow trucks and heavy lift equipment. So we had a small component of folks that could do that. We also had made connection with a private sector individual who was going to provide us with not -- with limited operators, but also training for any staff that we might have, to operate those vehicles, the lift part of the vehicles. We had a number of operators that could drive them and work them, but to actually operating the tow capacity itself was something we needed some training on. So we had that started, but we were still looking for more to augment that. To -- that would’ve facilitated a much better operational response, rather than the limited number that we had at the time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 134 21-134-08

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

So that was a bit still a work in progress ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 134 21-134-24

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- but you had ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 134 21-134-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

You had started and working it out.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-01

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. And another question, I’m just going back to the 9.1 request that was made on February 3rd, for -- that’s the request to move additional officers to Alberta; and that was granted, and we saw that letter.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-04

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

When was that terminated? Or how does it -- when did it end; do you know?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The officers in question, that came from British Columbia were 40 in number and they, as I recall, returned to British Columbia; at the end of that weekend of the 13th, 14th, they were released back to British Columbia. There would have still been officers within Alberta, primarily from municipal and perhaps federal business lines that would’ve still been augmenting. And I would actually have to defer to the Deputy Commissioner on when he was able to release them back to their business lines and just rely exclusively on the provincial officers. I just don’t know when that was. But there is no formal rescinding of that letter.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-12

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

So it was not formally rescinded, but your understanding is they went back about 13th or 14th. Would that be after the operation in Coutts; would that make sense to you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It would make sense to me, but I would want to defer it to Deputy Zablocki for the specifics around when they were released.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 135 21-135-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. And then you were taken to the request by Ottawa, or to move officers to Ottawa.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Would it be fair to say that when you were requesting officers from British Columbia, you would hesitate to send officers to Ottawa, or is -- those two separate, totally distinct, or would you weigh that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, at the time of that request, on the 18th we actually did release -- sorry; if that’s what you’re asking?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-09

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

No, I’m asking if before the 14th ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-12

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- in other words, you were asked is there any reason you wouldn’t have sent officers ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- earlier and, I’m just asking and it ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-19

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- I may be wrong, but ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-22

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- it seems common sense to me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. No, it’s a very much a common-sense question. And what would happen is what did happen on the 18th, it would’ve happened on the 14th, I would’ve looked to Deputy Zablocki to ask him, “What is the nature of the request?” In this case it wasn’t for just general numbers, it was for speciality officers, what we call a specialist STO officers, Special Tactics Operation officers, certain special units. I would’ve asked the question, “Could you realistically release those, given what you’re dealing with in the province?” And I would be guided by his advice on that. I would’ve been surprised had he said he could but there are other provinces in the Maritimes, et cetera, that he could’ve -- they could’ve pulled from.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 136 21-136-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. And then you talked about the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, and I’m trying to understanding a bit. That’s a pretty -- gives it a lot of broad power, as I understand it; is that fair?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s a broad application in the sense that if certain activity takes place on any piece of critical infrastructure, as defined under the Act, it allows for enforcement by police with specific penalties that are quite substantial.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-16

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

And it doesn’t have to be invoked; it just ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, it’s -- yeah, just standing legislation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-23

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

And then -- this may be the last one. I’m just going through my notes, I apologize.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

That you mentioned something about -- and I think it was maybe February 13th, but I’m not sure, a request for Reservists to be used, I think, to operate equipment. Did you ever get an answer on that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 137 21-137-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, and the February 13th reference was the conversation I had with Talal Dakalbab, the ADM, and Public Safety Canada and other federal officials, where I raised to them my surprise that we did have an answer back that was indicating that -- and it’s an earlier request from earlier in the week, where the Canadian Forces indicated that they would not allow their Reservists to participate in support of our operations in the manner that we’d asked. So we’d already had that answer and I was expressing to the ADMs my surprise that at least that level of support couldn’t be approved.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-04

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

And maybe I’ve got it wrong, but I thought in that note there was a suggestion that he would look into it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

That was my question; whether after looking into it, anything further came.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

My apologies. Yeah. He did indicate that he was not aware of the request, he would look in it, and I did not hear back from him.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was a busy time for him, though, I understand.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Because it was the looking into it that I ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 138 21-138-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- didn’t know whether ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We received no feedback after that, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-04

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Okay. Well, those are my questions. Thank you very much for attending, and I understand you’re going back to the cold.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-06

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

But not much we can do about that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I am indeed. Thank you, sir. It’s been a pleasure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-13

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. You’re free to go. So we will have a long lunch today, an hour and three minutes. So we’ll be back at 2 o’clock and continue with yesterday’s witness. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-15

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission is in recess until 2 o’clock. La Commission est levée jusqu'à 1400 heures.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-22

Upon recessing at 12:56 p.m.

Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

Order. A l’ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 139 21-139-26

DSG MARIO Di TOMMASO, Resumed

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Good afternoon, Commissioner. Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Commission Counsel. And the Commissioner -- the Commission would like to call again Mr. Di Tommaso.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 140 21-140-02

EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Welcome back, Mr. Di Tommasso.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 140 21-140-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

You've been sworn in, so I don’t believe you'll have to do that again. You're under oath as you were yesterday.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 140 21-140-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I'm Natalia Rodriguez, as I said. I'm taking over from my colleague, Mr. Poliquin, who was examining you yesterday. And I'm going to continue where he left off. So he took you to your notes, and I will take you to your notes as well. ONT.00005153, and it's at page 2. And you'll recall, these were your notes from a call that you had with Deputy Minister of Public Safety, Rob Stewart on February 3rd. Do you recall that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 140 21-140-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And yesterday, my colleague took you to some text messages with Commissioner Carrique in which you kind of agreed that the tenor of those text messages was essentially that things seemed to be under control. Do you recall that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 140 21-140-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So now, looking at these notes, again, this is a call with Deputy Minister Rob Stewart and these are the notes you took from your discussion. You wrote, "Three hundred (300)--- "

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 141 21-141-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Oh, 500? Okay. Excuse me -- "500 CMV in Ottawa," and that is commercial motor vehicles?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 141 21-141-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

"Three thousand (3,000) people, noise," in all caps there, "verbally assault -- " does that say RCMP or people?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 141 21-141-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

People. "No outbreaks of violence. Political are very exposed, stalemate. Nobody really in charge. Some who claim to be. Far right extremism." And if we go down, "Not going to be able to move once they are there," or "they are here," rather. "How do they leave? Change in policy or de-escalation? Create incentives for them to leave. City has stated to -- has started to enforce bylaws. Get right on it as soon as they get here." Did that accord with the tenor of the types of information and the discussion that you were having with Commissioner Carrique in terms of the public safety issues or what was happening on the ground?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 141 21-141-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so did you feel that you were getting similar messaging from both Commissioner Carrique and from the deputy minister in this case?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

After speaking to Deputy Minister Stewart, did you have any public safety concerns about the situation in Ottawa?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-09

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Not at that time. I was getting consistent messaging from Commissioner Carrique and from Deputy Minister Stewart that there were not any overriding public safety concerns; in other words, from my perspective, what we did not see is any serious violence taking place at that point in time, so no murders, shootings, robberies, stabbings, aggravated assaults, nothing of that sort. So from my perspective, no overriding public safety concerns at that point in time ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-12

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

--- in terms of physical violence.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. So public safety can mean more than physical violence, you'd agree?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So were there other public safety concerns aside from, as you say, Criminal Code violations, murders, assaults, that type of thing?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 142 21-142-27

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Yes, absolutely. This protest was having significant impact on Ottawa residents, and we've heard it described before by various witnesses that it was having a significant impact on the mental health and wellbeing of the community. And I completely accept that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did it rise to the level of a public safety concern?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And did the tenor of your briefings from Commissioner Carrique change over the course of the protest? Did at some point, did it become different in tone in terms of the public safety risk and the issues that were arising?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-10

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Not so much in terms of public safety risks, but the longer that this protest went on, the greater the concern was. It needed to be brought to an end, and so everybody certainly recognised the urgency of the situation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. Now on February 2nd, I understand from Chief Sloly's witness summary that you spoke to him, and he then requested to speak to the Solicitor General; do you recall that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And now in his witness statement, he said that you were looking for verification on a report that ambulances were being denied access to Ottawa hospitals; do you recall that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 143 21-143-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I do. There was a concern with regards to emergency routes that provided access to various hospitals, and that was communicated to me, and I just wanted to confirm with Chief Sloly whether or not that was true, and it if it was, what was being done about it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. And he told you that that was not the case; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And would that have been a public safety concern if in fact ambulances were not able to get to hospitals?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And why were you looking specifically for that information? Why was that important to you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-13

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I had had a meeting earlier on in the morning, I believe, with the Secretary of Cabinet and under Deputy Ministers unrelated to this issue and the matter came up from the Deputy Minister of Health. And so I committed to looking into the matter.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so independent from that, would that have been a concern for you in terms of your role with respect to public safety in Ontario if that had not been raised to you by the Minister -- or Deputy Minister of Health?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. In his summary, Chief Sloly also said that in that call with you, he asked you if you were aware of the public safety implications that the Freedom Convoy situation in Ottawa posed to the rest of Ontario. Do you recall him saying that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 144 21-144-27

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I'd have to check my notes. I'm sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Do you recall him telling you that there were some public safety implications to the rest of Ontario with respect to what was happening in Ottawa?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-06

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Once again, I'd have to check my notes, but I was certainly alive to the issue.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And was this the only call you had with former Chief Sloly during these events, like, a one-on-one discussion with him?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-12

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

No, there were other calls.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Now it looks like during this call, he indicated that he wanted to speak to the Solicitor General, and it looks like he did manage to speak with her on February 2nd. Were you on that call?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-17

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I was not, but I arranged that call.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And did you prepare the Solicitor General for that call? Did you brief her ahead of time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-23

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

The only information I provided to Minister Jones was that Chief Sloly was interested in speaking to her with regards to the Freedom Convoy.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 145 21-145-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And are you aware of what was discussed on this call?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-01

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I was not debriefed, no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Now on February 2nd, former Chief Sloly said that there may not be a policing solution to this demonstration. Do you recall hearing that at the time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the reaction within the Government of Ontario to this statement, if any? Was there any concerns or questions raised as a result of this statement?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-09

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did not have conversations about this issue with any of my superiors, with Minister Jones or the Secretary or the Premier. But I certainly felt that there was, in fact, a policing solution to the problem. It was a policing matter and I thought that the Police Services within this province would be in a position to address the convoy.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And in your view, did this statement affect the provincial response in any way?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-20

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

No, I was very confident that Commissioner Carrique was providing all resources that were requested by Ottawa on an ongoing basis.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. So I want to take you now to your notes again, ONT00005153. And if you can go to page 5? This is a call you had with Commissioner Carrique on February 3rd, and it's at 17:10. Yeah, there it is. So Commissioner Carrique says, "No POU." What did you take that to mean?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 146 21-146-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

That there were insufficient POU resources available.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then if we look down it says, "Chief very concerned about Sloly as is RCMP. Still haven't pulled together his plan. [Federal government] expressing his concerns about his ability to lead" So you're hearing at this -- in this call that there are some concerns with respect to Chief Sloly's ability to lead, as indicated in these notes; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-05

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

This is what was being communicated to me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes, and who was -- and Commissioner Carrique was communicating that to you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And was this the first time you were hearing that there were concerns at the RCMP level and with respect to Commissioner Carrique about Chief Sloly?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did you relay this discussion to the Solicitor General, let her know that the OPP and the RCMP have concerns?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-24

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

To the best of my knowledge, I did, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 147 21-147-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you know what her response to that was?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now what is available to you, what can you do if, you know, the two Commissioners of Ontario and the OPP and the RCMP have lost confidence as -- is what it seems like, in one of their -- a local Chief of Police? Is there anything in your toolbox to be able to respond to that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-04

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

No, not really. And what I mean by that is that the entity that is best placed to deal with the performance of a Chief of Police is the Police Service Board of jurisdiction. That is the best entity. If, for example, there was a concern that a Police Service Board was not providing adequate and effective police services, there is a provision in the Act for the Solicitor General to act and ask OCPC, the Ontario Civilian Police Commission, to start an investigation under Section 25 of the Police Services Act.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And to your knowledge, was that ever considered in this case?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

It was not a viable option.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-20

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

From my experience, the Solicitor General would have to write to OCPC at a point in time where she is satisfied that adequate and effective police services were not being provided by the Board, and then the OCPC would have discretion to either accept or not the request of the Solicitor General. And from my experience, OCPC would take an extraordinarily long period of time to act. And I say that because Minister Jones has written to OCPC in the past on three separate occasions during my tenure to ask OCPC to step in. And in each of those cases, OCPC took a long time, in my view, to act, because of their legislative obligations and duties. And so this was an urgent situation, and from my perspective, the entity that was best placed to deal with the performance of Chief Sloly was the local Police Service Board of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 148 21-148-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if the local Police Service Board of jurisdiction does not take steps, and it appears that perhaps adequate policing is not being effectively carried out in an area, why wouldn't the Solicitor General then exercise whatever authority he or she can, in this case she, to do something when it looks like other entities are not acting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 149 21-149-09

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

But something was being done. The Ottawa Police Service was supporting -- was being supported by the very capable leadership of the RCMP and the OPP and the provision of policing resources. I certainly had not lost confidence in the Ottawa Police Service. They were being supported ably and capably by that leadership. They were being given the resources that they requested.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 149 21-149-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so if the Commissioner of the OPP and the Commissioner of the RCMP have lost confidence in the Chief, are they not best positioned to make that determination?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 149 21-149-22

Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Commissioner? Rebecca Jones for Chief Sloly. That was not the evidence of the Commissioner. The Commissioner very clearly indicated he had not lost confidence in the Chief of Police, and that is not what the note says as well. So we do object to the line of questioning involving an interpretation of a note which is not consistent with the evidence.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 149 21-149-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So to rephrase the question, if it were the case that the OPP and the RCMP had lost confidence in a Chief of Police, would it be appropriate then for the Solicitor General to recommend to the OCPC to step in?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 150 21-150-05

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

The entire issue is the provision of adequate and effective police services, not a loss of confidence. That’s the issue. And from my perspective, the entity best placed to deal with that issue is the local police service board of jurisdiction. Within the Police Services Act, there are only two entities that are tasked and required to provide adequate and effective police services. The first one is the municipality, with regards to funding. The second entity is the local police service board of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 150 21-150-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So there was no -- so if I understand what you’re saying, there’s no role here for the Solicitor General if adequate and effective policing is not being carried out?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 150 21-150-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

There is a role, but only after it’s been proven that adequate and effective police services are not being provided. And from my perspective, Ottawa Police Service, with the support of the RCMP, with the support of the OPP, with the provision of all resources that were being given to it, with all that support, I had confidence in the Ottawa Police Service.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 150 21-150-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And if we go a little bit down in the notes, where the star is, “Windsor in Ambassador Bridge”, is this with respect to a possible blockade at the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And was this the first time you were hearing that there was a possible issue at the Ambassador Bridge?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go to page 6, at the bottom of the page -- keep going down. Yeah. Where it says: “CONTAINMENT NEGOTIATION PRESERVE LIFE/PUBLIC SAFETY PROTECT CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE” Were these -- now, I’m trying to understand whether this was still within the context of your discussion with Commissioner Carrique and whether these were priorities of the OPP that were communicated to you, or whether this was your notes to yourself indicating what you thought the priorities were?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-10

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Priorities of the OPP, as communicated to me by Commissioner Carrique.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And then at the bottom, it says “FLASHPOINT”. Can you explain that notation there?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I can’t. I’m sorry. I don’t remember what that reference was all about.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 151 21-151-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. so I’ll take you now to ONT00004063. And I understand on February 3rd, the Ottawa Police Service requested assistance from the Ministry of the Solicitor General regarding the urgent appointment of members of the RCMP as special constables. Were you aware of this at the time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 152 21-152-02

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Yes. And under section 53 of the Police Services Act, the only role that the Solicitor General has is to simply approve the request of a local police service board or the OPP Commissioner, depending on the situation. That authority has been delegated down to the Public Safety Division, and in particular, to the director at the External Relations Branch. I was aware of the request, and I certainly communicated to my people in that section that we would move heaven and earth to make sure that Ottawa got all of the resources they needed with regards to expediting the approval.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 152 21-152-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And is this approval kind of administrative done on paper type thing?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 152 21-152-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So is it fair to say it’s a bit of a formality? You sign a paper and then it’s done?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 152 21-152-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if I could take you now to ONT00005252? And these are text messages you exchanged with Commissioner Carrique. And this is February 4th, I believe. And it says there -- and I believe Commissioner Carrique is in the white and you’re in the green? Is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 152 21-152-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so in the white there, it says: “I spoke with Commissioner Lucki, Chief Sloly and Chief Ramer last night.” And that’s the former Chief of the Toronto Police Service? Is that right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-05

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

He’s still the Chief.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Oh, I thought somebody else had been appointed. My mistake. Okay. So it says there: “All have access to the necessary OPP resources.” So what did you understand to be the status of the provincial resources in Ottawa on February 4th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-12

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

That all requests for resources were being maintained and addressed by the OPP.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so the implication here is that the OPS had all of the OPP officers that it needs, or that it has requested; right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. We can take that down. Now, on February 4th, there were also protests in Toronto, specifically around Queen’s Park. You were aware of those; correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 153 21-153-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And my understanding is that those protests wrapped up fairly quickly? Is that your understanding as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 154 21-154-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So maybe you can shed some light, at least from your perspective, of what was done -- what worked in Toronto, what was done right in Toronto that wasn’t done in Ottawa? What was the difference here?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 154 21-154-07

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

So I think Toronto certainly learned some valuable lessons from the experience that the Ottawa Police Service had just gone through the previous weekend. And so what -- from my understanding, what Toronto did was they set up a hard perimeter around the critical infrastructure that the protestors were most interested in.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 154 21-154-11

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Can you try and slow down a bit again? I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s the interpreters.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 154 21-154-17

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I apologize, sir. So what Toronto did was they set up a hard perimeter around the critical infrastructure that the protestors were most interested in, namely Queen’s Park. They requested resources from other police services to help them do that. At the end of the day, they denied access to Queen’s Park, Queen’s Park Circle, hospital access roads, University Avenue, down to Hospital Row. So all of that was denied to the convoys that were coming to Toronto. So the trucks. Vehicles were not permitted into that area. They certainly facilitated the ability to exercise one’s fundamental rights to lawful protest, truckers were available to come to Queen’s Park and protest on foot, because as we know, the right to protest belongs to people and not to trucks.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 154 21-154-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so do you know who is -- who would you credit with the appropriate response here in the Toronto protest? Was it the police? Was it the politicians? The Mayor? How did this end up getting wrapped up?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 155 21-155-05

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I would give credit to the Toronto Police Service being supported by other services that provided those resources. So credit goes to all of the police services that participated in that protest. But I have to say Toronto learned lessons from the Ottawa experience the previous weekend.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 155 21-155-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was your understanding of the purpose of the protest in Toronto? What were the protestors protesting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 155 21-155-16

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

So my recollection was that that particular protest was in support of the main protest happening in Ottawa. And my recollection of what was happening in Ottawa was that there was a major element of that protest that was protesting in regards to the January 15th imposition of vaccine mandates on international truckers by the Federal Government.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 155 21-155-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And was there an element as well, or at least from the Province’s perspective, that this was about provincial measures in addition to federal measures?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 155 21-155-26

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I don’t recall turning my mind to that. My understanding was that this was a protest in regards to the federal mandate to impose vaccination criteria on international truckers. But having said that, I think that there were many other elements that attended both Toronto and Windsor that had other agendas.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 156 21-156-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. But in your view, it didn’t include protesting provincial mandates?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 156 21-156-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. I want to take you to OPP00004580. And this is -- I’ll take you to page 56. These are more text messages between you and Commissioner Carrique. And if we go to page 56, this is now February 5th, Saturday. If we go down? Down some more. So there, -- and just maybe you can clarify. The green, I believe, is you, and the blue, I believe, is Commissioner Carrique. Do you know if that’s -- are you able to clarify that? If we go down, that might help. Keep going to the next page.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 156 21-156-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Well, if we can go up, maybe I’ll just ask the question, and it may not make much of a difference. So it says there at 10:11: "Info on OPSB is clear to share." And that would be the Ottawa Police Service Board; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 156 21-156-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go down, there’s a link shared, the Ottawa Police Service Board calls a special meeting. And if we go down to page 57: "Live link PSB meeting." So I just wanted to ask -- there seems to be some texts exchanged about the OPSB meeting on February 5th and my question is, were you monitoring what the board was doing or were you -- did you take an interest in the board’s meetings?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-01

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did take in an interest. To the best of my recollection, there was a both a public board meeting and an in-camera meeting.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And why were you taking an interest in the board’s meetings?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-12

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Well, because at the end of the day, it’s the board that has accountability and oversight over the Ottawa Police Service. And so there was a major issue happening in Ottawa and I was interested in what steps Ottawa Police Service Board would be taking.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I understand that the Ministry of the Solicitor General has a representative that goes to the meetings and advises the boards on various issues; is that right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you may or may nor know this but I understand that in Ottawa, it was Lindsey Gray; do you know that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-24

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

After reviewing some material, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 157 21-157-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And what is that representative’s role?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-01

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

So under Section 3 of the Police Services Act, the Solicitor General has responsibility to advise police services and boards. And the way in which that duty is discharged of by way of having police service board advisors. And so that advisor is there to provide advice on the Police Services Act upon request.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And does that representative report back the activities of the board to the Solicitor General’s office?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-09

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

There’s a report to the Inspector General of Policing.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. But the Solicitor General’s office does not receive any information back from that representative?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And is there a reason for that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-20

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

So -- well, it’s a reporting tree, if you will, so that information goes to the Assistant Deputy Minister, the Acting Inspector General of Policing. That individual, Ken Weatherhill, reports to me and then it’s my job to advise the Solicitor General.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And to what extent were you briefed on the ongoings of the board?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 158 21-158-27

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I wouldn’t say that I was briefed in any great detail but I was aware of the general discussions that were happening.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And that was through whom, just from watching the board meeting that were public or was there another source of information?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-04

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

A combination of both, watching the public board meeting on TV and the advisor that was present in the in-camera session as well.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And this would be Lindsey Gray?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you had discussions with her about?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-13

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did not have discussions with Lindsey Gray. It was being reported through Ken Weatherhill to me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Understood, thank you. I want to take you now to -- we’re moving on to February 6th to a summary of a call. It’s ONT00000311. And this is a call with the City of Ottawa. There are representatives from the federal government that were there as well. You were present. I believe on behalf of the Ontario Government, it was you and the Deputy Minister of Transportation, Laurie LeBlanc, who were the two attendees for the province; is that correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I believe that’s the case, and there were other deputy ministers from Ontario there as well, if I -- my recollection is correct, including Deputy Minister Kate Manson-Smith from the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I believe she was there as well.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 159 21-159-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Do you know who took these notes?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And you -- but you’ve seen them before?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you saw them at the time; they were sent to you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-09

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

These notes, the first time I saw them, I believe, was some time after the convoy in Ottawa was resolved.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

I see, okay. Thank you. My understanding is that Deputy Minister Rob Stewart convened this meeting; is that right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And before attending this meeting, did you have any instructions from the Solicitor General or from the Premier on what your role was to be or what you were to contribute to this meeting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

But I certainly prepared for this meeting.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And how did you prepare for this meeting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-26

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Well, one of the things that I did -- and I’d have to check my notes for this date, but one of the things I did was I quickly reviewed the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act and its provisions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 160 21-160-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the purpose of doing that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-04

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Well, in the event that the discussion turned to the EMCPA, I would be prepared.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what did you see as your role in this meeting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-08

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

My role was to receive a situational update and then discuss what the art of the possible is with regards to resolving the convoy in Ottawa.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what did you see as the province’s role in trying to bring these protests to a peaceful resolution at this time?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-13

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

So the province’s role was, certainly, through the OPP, a division of the Ministry of the Solicitor General, to provide all the resources that were being requested.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Was there anything else?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-20

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Certainly trying to come up with strategies to encourage the truckers to leave, coming up with potential negotiation/mediation solutions, exploring various other incentives to compel the truckers to leave.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we go down on this page, the second bullet point: "Steve Kanellakos, City Manager from Ottawa, provided an update from the City’s perspective. Steve Kanellakos is concerned about the posture of local councillors who are pointing the finger at the province and federal government to provide assistant to resolve the matter." So were you aware at this point, then, that some leaders within the municipal community were pointing fingers, well, both at Ontario and the federal government?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 161 21-161-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

This was the first time I heard that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 162 21-162-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then it says in bold: "Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson is going to declare a local emergency in the City of Ottawa at 4:30 p.m. The expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this." Were you aware that the mayor intended to put pressure on the Ontario government by declaring a municipal state of emergency?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 162 21-162-12

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

This was the first I’ve heard of it and I thought that that was rather an odd statement as well.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 162 21-162-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, and why is that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 162 21-162-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Because when you look at Section 4 of the EMCPA, the intent to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers is not one of the authorized reasons for declaring an municipal emergency.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 162 21-162-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. And so what did you understand the exercise of provincial to resolve this to be in this case? What did you understand the municipality to be looking to the province to do?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-02

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Additional resources.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you -- you understood this to be additional resources?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-07

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Yes. And that’s articulated in the next bullet point because City of Ottawa will also be looking for what the province and federal governments can do to provide additional assistance.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. Although, it says “will also be looking”, so it seems like this is something separate from the bullet point above; you could agree with that interpretation?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did you see the Declaration of a State of Emergency at the time that it was declared?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

No, I’ve seen it in the disclosure material that I’ve reviewed.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you were not aware, then, at the time, that the declaration stated that the demonstrations were a threat to the security of the residents?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-23

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did not see that declaration, no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And that was not reported to you through your chain of reporting?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 163 21-163-28

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did not see the declaration.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. At this point, given the local emergency that’s about to be declared and some of the other information that you've received, did you have public safety concerns about the situation in Ottawa by February 6th?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-04

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

No. I was still not seeing any significant serious violent crime concerns at all. At no time did Chief Sloly or Commissioner Carrique communicate to me that there were significant public safety concern from a violence perspective. And I knew that the Ottawa Police Service was being well supported by the RCMP and by the OPP as well.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. But I think you can agree that public safety encompasses more than just violent crime, correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So were you aware at the time that there were open fires in barrels on the streets and fireworks going off and open fuel that wasn’t properly stored and diesel fumes that were entering people's homes? Were you aware of all of those circumstances on the ground?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

But in your view, that did not pose a public safety concern?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-25

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

From a violent crime perspective with regards to the Criminal Code, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 164 21-164-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right. But from another perspective, it did, right?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 165 21-165-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So in your interview summary, you indicated that you were of the view that the protest in Ottawa was a "significant inconvenience" -- and that’s a quote -- but that it did not present an overriding public safety risk. Now, Commissioner Carrique was asked about this and in his evidence -- I'm not sure if you watched his evidence -- but he indicated that it wasn’t really about one being a safety risk and the other one not being a safety risk, but it was about prioritizing resources, and that the Hendon Reports made clear that there was a security risk in Ottawa. You would agree with me that he was closer to the ground in order to assess the situation in Ottawa than you were, correct?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 165 21-165-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you still stand by that statement today, that it was an inconvenience but not a public safety risk?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 165 21-165-19

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

Well, it was much more than an inconvenience, and I accept that. There was a significant impact on the residents of Ottawa. I can't imagine what they were going through. I'm very sympathetic and empathetic to all that they went through and all the suffering that they went through. It was more than an inconvenience, much more.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 165 21-165-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Now, after this meeting, did you brief the solicitor general on the fact that the City was going to declare a municipal emergency and that the stated intent was to put pressure on the province?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-01

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I don’t have any notes that I briefed the solicitor general, but my practice would be something this important, I likely did.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you know if the premier was aware of that stated intent as well?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-08

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I did not speak to the premier.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Did you speak to the premier at all throughout the course of these events?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And did the declaration, in fact, put pressure on the province to act?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-15

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

The province was acting.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Well, for example, the provincial state of emergency came on the 11th. Was there any pressure from this local state of emergency to do that?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-18

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I'm not sure that pressure is the right word. I think the province was actively surveilling and looking at the environment in terms of what was going on province wide, and when the concern was such that the protest was spreading to other parts of the province, as we saw in Windsor, in Toronto, in Cornwall, in Sarnia, at the Peace Bridge, that’s when the premier decided to act.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So is it fair to say though that this may have provided a signal to the province that the City of Ottawa was in need of more assistance?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 166 21-166-28

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I would agree with that, but we were also hearing loud and clear that the City of Ottawa was requesting additional resources.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 167 21-167-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we'll get to that request in a second. So with respect to the stated intent, Mayor Watson, when he testified, stated that the City did not consider that the province was engaged enough at this time, February 6th, in finding a solution to the situation in Ottawa. So I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 167 21-167-06

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I'm sorry, where is that in this ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 167 21-167-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

That was in his testimony. I can bring up the transcript, but he did say in his evidence when he testified here at the Commission that by February 6th, he did not feel that the province was engaged enough in finding a solution.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 167 21-167-16

Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)

I don’t accept that at all. I think that the province was very engaged in providing support to the City of Ottawa through a variety of means, including support for injunctions, including providing advice to the Police Service Board, including the provision of policing resources, including the provision of MTO resources. So I don’t accept that at all.