Mario Di Tommaso
Mario Di Tommaso spoke 1105 times across 2 days of testimony.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would like to swear, please.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Bible.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good morning.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Before we proceed, Commissioner ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- may I have your indulgence? I'd like to use a calendar with key dates on it for reference. It just has key dates on it, if that's permissible.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, sir, there's another Deputy Solicitor General in the Ministry and she is responsible for the corrections portfolio.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the Ministry of the Solicitor General led by the Solicitor General, responsible for the safety and security of Ontarians. The Minister runs both the correctional side, which looks at 25 institutions, bail, and parole. And then there’s the community safety side that has nine, or at the time had nine different pillars delivering public service and policy development with regards to the safety and security of Ontarians. So at the time I had nine divisions that reported to me directly, and the OPP was one of those nine divisions.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. But the OPP reported to the Solicitor General, in terms of policy and longer-term initiatives. But certainly the OPP reported to me on a daily basis, and that was Comm. Carrique.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, that’s under section 3 of the Police Services Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So with regards to oversight, I do not have the ability to direct the Commissioner in any way with regards to any policing operations, day-to-day operations, that -- and deployment. That remains the exclusive jurisdiction of the Commissioner of the OPP. Having said that, anything to do with human resources, in terms of expanding or contracting the size of the OPP; procurement; financing, that type of thing, that responsibility lies with me, and I have frequent discussions with the Commissioner on those topics.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
As a whole. So, for example, when various initiatives come to the table that require additional resources province-wide to implement an initiative, I will have discussions with the OPP Commissioner on what the staffing needs are; prepare a Treasury Board submission, and hopefully with the approval of Treasury Board, grant the Commissioner the ability to expand the size of the OPP, to implement whatever initiative is on the table. So it’s province-wide.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Operations, deployment, discipline; yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So in late February -- I’m sorry; early February, I was in receipt of information from Comm. Carrique, with regards to this convoy that was coming through Ontario and on its way to Ottawa. And so in those communications, Comm. Carrique was informing me of the various steps that he was taking to mitigate the possible impact of the convoy arriving in Ontario. And at the time, I recall having conversations with Comm. Carrique that there was a plan in place in Ottawa and that he, the Commissioner, was deploying whatever resources were required by the Ottawa Police Service at the time. I had some level of information that the intention of the -- some convoy organizers was to stay longer than anticipated, but the plan that was communicated to me by Comm. Carrique was such that my understanding was that the truckers would be invited into the boundaries of the City of Ottawa, but certainly not downtown; that they would be parked away from the downtown core and then the protestors would be bused in. I was also comforted by the fact that Comm. Carrique was in contact with Chief Sloly, discussing various options, and providing the resources that Chief Sloly was requesting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe that would’ve been the 27th or 28th of January.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not exactly. I can infer. I suspect he got that information from -- you know, directly by speaking to Chief Sloly, I’m assuming. And then from Project Hendon reports as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On a regular basis. Throughout this period, I was receiving situational updates on a daily basis from Carrique -- Comm. Carrique, and there were daily phone calls as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not with Comm. Carrique and I, no.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On a regular basis.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So my practice was to basically copy and paste the texts that I received from Comm. Carrique, and I would forward them on to Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Mainstream media, social media, situational reports from the Office of the Provincial Security Advisor, daily reports from the Office of Emergency Management as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that would be Assistant Deputy Minister Chris Letang, and their responsibilities are to engage in dialogue with various stakeholders on the Intelligence front, and then distill that information to me. So I knew that certainly Assistant Deputy Minister Chris Letang was in his office, was in receipt of these Hendon reports, I was not. And there was a higher-level summary of some of those reports provided to me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Would be Minister Jones, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not briefings, but I did have discussions.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s correct with Commissioner Carrique?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's correct, and that's because I don't have any jurisdiction or oversight over Chief Sloly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, but once again, I am not the oversight body. That responsibility falls to the Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, you're asking me to speculate. If I had concerns, I would certainly be in a position to pick up the phone and call various Chiefs of Police.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I've never had the experience where a Police Services Board has contacted me to have a discussion with their Chief of Police. I've never had that experience, and I think that would be problematic, quite frankly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, the oversight, the responsibility and accountability for monitoring the performance of a Chief of Police lies exclusively with the Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had one call with her.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not. Ottawa Police Service, quite frankly, is one of the major policing services in Ontario, if not Canada. They are led by an able leadership. They have plenty of experience with regards to protests on a regular basis. I knew that Commissioner Carrique was in regular contact with Chief Sloly and I knew that the OPP Commissioner was providing resources to mitigate any possible risks. And so that certainly gave me a sense of comfort. As well, that the plan was to keep the truckers out of the downtown core and then be bussed in. So from that perspective, from that information that Commissioner Carrique relayed to me, that gave me a sense of comfort. And so didn't have concerns over the first weekend. However, with the media with what it was, you know, and displaying all the activities over the first weekend, that concern certainly grew.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what my expectations were. I -- my expectations were that Ottawa Police Service in conjunction with the OPP and with those resources would be in a position to deal with the situation. There were - - there was conflicting information as to the size and the scope of the actual protest, the number of truckers, the number of people and the length of time that they would be staying.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not. From my perspective, this was a policing matter that was being dealt with by both Commissioner Carrique and Chief Sloly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, what changed was that there was not an exit plan for the truckers, that the truckers were well entrenched, and there was certainly a very well communicated refusal to leave. So that first weekend, in my mind, caused me to believe that this protest had morphed into an occupation, and so that's what changed after the first weekend.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. Yes, it did. My understanding was that there would be a plan to bus these protesters in from the outskirts of Ottawa into the downtown area. So I was questioning the issue of, you know, how did they get downtown.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware at that point in time that there were any significant public safety risks, and when I say that, I mean in terms of Criminal Code offences, in terms of robberies, aggravated assaults, that type of thing. The impact that I saw was primarily significant harm being imposed and committed on the community. So the community sense of wellbeing and mental health, that was certainly being impacted by this protest. And but I did not hear of any significant violations of the Criminal Code in terms of violent assaults.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's fair.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So what’s the date of this particular text?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So yes. I am becoming a little concerned, given the fact that the protestors appear to be more aggressive and confrontational with police today compared to previous. But I also have a sense of comfort in knowing that the OPP, YRP, and OPS Public Order Units are being utilized.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that concern is mitigated somewhat.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Five hundred (500).
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
People.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not at that time. I was getting consistent messaging from Commissioner Carrique and from Deputy Minister Stewart that there were not any overriding public safety concerns; in other words, from my perspective, what we did not see is any serious violence taking place at that point in time, so no murders, shootings, robberies, stabbings, aggravated assaults, nothing of that sort. So from my perspective, no overriding public safety concerns at that point in time ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- in terms of physical violence.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Exactly right, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, absolutely. This protest was having significant impact on Ottawa residents, and we've heard it described before by various witnesses that it was having a significant impact on the mental health and wellbeing of the community. And I completely accept that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not so much in terms of public safety risks, but the longer that this protest went on, the greater the concern was. It needed to be brought to an end, and so everybody certainly recognised the urgency of the situation.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do. There was a concern with regards to emergency routes that provided access to various hospitals, and that was communicated to me, and I just wanted to confirm with Chief Sloly whether or not that was true, and it if it was, what was being done about it.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had had a meeting earlier on in the morning, I believe, with the Secretary of Cabinet and under Deputy Ministers unrelated to this issue and the matter came up from the Deputy Minister of Health. And so I committed to looking into the matter.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'd have to check my notes. I'm sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Once again, I'd have to check my notes, but I was certainly alive to the issue.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, there were other calls.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not, but I arranged that call.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The only information I provided to Minister Jones was that Chief Sloly was interested in speaking to her with regards to the Freedom Convoy.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not debriefed, no.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not have conversations about this issue with any of my superiors, with Minister Jones or the Secretary or the Premier. But I certainly felt that there was, in fact, a policing solution to the problem. It was a policing matter and I thought that the Police Services within this province would be in a position to address the convoy.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I was very confident that Commissioner Carrique was providing all resources that were requested by Ottawa on an ongoing basis.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That there were insufficient POU resources available.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
This is what was being communicated to me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
To the best of my knowledge, I did, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not really. And what I mean by that is that the entity that is best placed to deal with the performance of a Chief of Police is the Police Service Board of jurisdiction. That is the best entity. If, for example, there was a concern that a Police Service Board was not providing adequate and effective police services, there is a provision in the Act for the Solicitor General to act and ask OCPC, the Ontario Civilian Police Commission, to start an investigation under Section 25 of the Police Services Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It was not a viable option.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From my experience, the Solicitor General would have to write to OCPC at a point in time where she is satisfied that adequate and effective police services were not being provided by the Board, and then the OCPC would have discretion to either accept or not the request of the Solicitor General. And from my experience, OCPC would take an extraordinarily long period of time to act. And I say that because Minister Jones has written to OCPC in the past on three separate occasions during my tenure to ask OCPC to step in. And in each of those cases, OCPC took a long time, in my view, to act, because of their legislative obligations and duties. And so this was an urgent situation, and from my perspective, the entity that was best placed to deal with the performance of Chief Sloly was the local Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But something was being done. The Ottawa Police Service was supporting -- was being supported by the very capable leadership of the RCMP and the OPP and the provision of policing resources. I certainly had not lost confidence in the Ottawa Police Service. They were being supported ably and capably by that leadership. They were being given the resources that they requested.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The entire issue is the provision of adequate and effective police services, not a loss of confidence. That’s the issue. And from my perspective, the entity best placed to deal with that issue is the local police service board of jurisdiction. Within the Police Services Act, there are only two entities that are tasked and required to provide adequate and effective police services. The first one is the municipality, with regards to funding. The second entity is the local police service board of jurisdiction.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There is a role, but only after it’s been proven that adequate and effective police services are not being provided. And from my perspective, Ottawa Police Service, with the support of the RCMP, with the support of the OPP, with the provision of all resources that were being given to it, with all that support, I had confidence in the Ottawa Police Service.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Priorities of the OPP, as communicated to me by Commissioner Carrique.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can’t. I’m sorry. I don’t remember what that reference was all about.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. And under section 53 of the Police Services Act, the only role that the Solicitor General has is to simply approve the request of a local police service board or the OPP Commissioner, depending on the situation. That authority has been delegated down to the Public Safety Division, and in particular, to the director at the External Relations Branch. I was aware of the request, and I certainly communicated to my people in that section that we would move heaven and earth to make sure that Ottawa got all of the resources they needed with regards to expediting the approval.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He’s still the Chief.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That all requests for resources were being maintained and addressed by the OPP.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I think Toronto certainly learned some valuable lessons from the experience that the Ottawa Police Service had just gone through the previous weekend. And so what -- from my understanding, what Toronto did was they set up a hard perimeter around the critical infrastructure that the protestors were most interested in.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I apologize, sir. So what Toronto did was they set up a hard perimeter around the critical infrastructure that the protestors were most interested in, namely Queen’s Park. They requested resources from other police services to help them do that. At the end of the day, they denied access to Queen’s Park, Queen’s Park Circle, hospital access roads, University Avenue, down to Hospital Row. So all of that was denied to the convoys that were coming to Toronto. So the trucks. Vehicles were not permitted into that area. They certainly facilitated the ability to exercise one’s fundamental rights to lawful protest, truckers were available to come to Queen’s Park and protest on foot, because as we know, the right to protest belongs to people and not to trucks.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would give credit to the Toronto Police Service being supported by other services that provided those resources. So credit goes to all of the police services that participated in that protest. But I have to say Toronto learned lessons from the Ottawa experience the previous weekend.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So my recollection was that that particular protest was in support of the main protest happening in Ottawa. And my recollection of what was happening in Ottawa was that there was a major element of that protest that was protesting in regards to the January 15th imposition of vaccine mandates on international truckers by the Federal Government.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t recall turning my mind to that. My understanding was that this was a protest in regards to the federal mandate to impose vaccination criteria on international truckers. But having said that, I think that there were many other elements that attended both Toronto and Windsor that had other agendas.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not helpful.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did take in an interest. To the best of my recollection, there was a both a public board meeting and an in-camera meeting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, because at the end of the day, it’s the board that has accountability and oversight over the Ottawa Police Service. And so there was a major issue happening in Ottawa and I was interested in what steps Ottawa Police Service Board would be taking.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes,
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
After reviewing some material, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So under Section 3 of the Police Services Act, the Solicitor General has responsibility to advise police services and boards. And the way in which that duty is discharged of by way of having police service board advisors. And so that advisor is there to provide advice on the Police Services Act upon request.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There’s a report to the Inspector General of Policing.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So -- well, it’s a reporting tree, if you will, so that information goes to the Assistant Deputy Minister, the Acting Inspector General of Policing. That individual, Ken Weatherhill, reports to me and then it’s my job to advise the Solicitor General.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I wouldn’t say that I was briefed in any great detail but I was aware of the general discussions that were happening.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
A combination of both, watching the public board meeting on TV and the advisor that was present in the in-camera session as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not have discussions with Lindsey Gray. It was being reported through Ken Weatherhill to me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe that’s the case, and there were other deputy ministers from Ontario there as well, if I -- my recollection is correct, including Deputy Minister Kate Manson-Smith from the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I believe she was there as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I have.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
These notes, the first time I saw them, I believe, was some time after the convoy in Ottawa was resolved.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would agree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But I certainly prepared for this meeting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, one of the things that I did -- and I’d have to check my notes for this date, but one of the things I did was I quickly reviewed the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act and its provisions.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, in the event that the discussion turned to the EMCPA, I would be prepared.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
My role was to receive a situational update and then discuss what the art of the possible is with regards to resolving the convoy in Ottawa.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the province’s role was, certainly, through the OPP, a division of the Ministry of the Solicitor General, to provide all the resources that were being requested.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Certainly trying to come up with strategies to encourage the truckers to leave, coming up with potential negotiation/mediation solutions, exploring various other incentives to compel the truckers to leave.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
This was the first time I heard that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
This was the first I’ve heard of it and I thought that that was rather an odd statement as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Because when you look at Section 4 of the EMCPA, the intent to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers is not one of the authorized reasons for declaring an municipal emergency.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Additional resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. And that’s articulated in the next bullet point because City of Ottawa will also be looking for what the province and federal governments can do to provide additional assistance.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I’ve seen it in the disclosure material that I’ve reviewed.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not see that declaration, no.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not see the declaration.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. I was still not seeing any significant serious violent crime concerns at all. At no time did Chief Sloly or Commissioner Carrique communicate to me that there were significant public safety concern from a violence perspective. And I knew that the Ottawa Police Service was being well supported by the RCMP and by the OPP as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From a violent crime perspective with regards to the Criminal Code, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, it was much more than an inconvenience, and I accept that. There was a significant impact on the residents of Ottawa. I can't imagine what they were going through. I'm very sympathetic and empathetic to all that they went through and all the suffering that they went through. It was more than an inconvenience, much more.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t have any notes that I briefed the solicitor general, but my practice would be something this important, I likely did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not speak to the premier.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The province was acting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not sure that pressure is the right word. I think the province was actively surveilling and looking at the environment in terms of what was going on province wide, and when the concern was such that the protest was spreading to other parts of the province, as we saw in Windsor, in Toronto, in Cornwall, in Sarnia, at the Peace Bridge, that’s when the premier decided to act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would agree with that, but we were also hearing loud and clear that the City of Ottawa was requesting additional resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, where is that in this ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t accept that at all. I think that the province was very engaged in providing support to the City of Ottawa through a variety of means, including support for injunctions, including providing advice to the Police Service Board, including the provision of policing resources, including the provision of MTO resources. So I don’t accept that at all.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I might be conflating the two injunctions, the one in Windsor and the one in Ottawa, but my understanding is that the attorney general supported one of the two injunctions. I can't recall which one of the two. I'm sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Provided significant resources to the Ottawa Police Service from the OPP, significant number of resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I believe MTO was involved in providing their resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And I believe there was continuing advice to the Ottawa Police Service Board from the advisors. And I'd have to check my notes, but the province was heavily engaged at this point in time.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I'm not sure that summary offences is accurate. What I was suggesting was, is there anything else that the Ministry of the Attorney General can do with regards to any offences that are charged. So what I was thinking about was, is there an ability to increase set fines? Is there an opportunity to explore bail provisions for those people that are arrested? Is there anything that the attorney general can do to better support the Ottawa Police Service?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So this comment was certainly not aligned with the comment that Deputy Minister Stewart made previous, where he was suggesting that the Federal Government did have a role, in particular with regards to finding interlocutors. So from my perspective, this question was all about, from my perception, the Federal Government wanting to wash its hands of this entire thing. I didn’t think that was appropriate at all. I thought that the Federal Government did have a role. At the end of the day, these protestors were in Ottawa to protest, mainly, the imposition of a vaccine mandate on January 15 on international truckers. They were on Parliament’s doorstep. They were in the National Capital Region. The Federal Government, Public Safety Canada does have a Memorandum of Understanding with Ottawa Police Service with regards to the provision of policing resources in and around Capital Hill. The OPP is not a signatory to that MOU. So from my perspective, the Federal Government did have a role to play, just like Ontario had a role to play in the provision of resources. And so I made that known to Jody Thomas. I felt that some of the options that were available to the Federal Government included a possibility of meeting with and listening to the protestors, the possibility of amending their vaccine mandate, the possibility of providing additional resources to the Ottawa Police Service. So there was a range of options available to the Federal Government. And it was my position that the Federal Government certainly had a role to play in this.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. Yes, that’s absolutely correct. But I would also like to add, at the end of the day, this was a policing matter, and my view was that both the Federal Government and the Provincial Government had a role to play in terms of supporting the police response.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So there were some names that were provided by Chief Sloly at that meeting. I don’t remember the -- Murray Sinclair, Bob Rae, and others. And the idea was to get a very high-profile individual to meet with the interested parties to see if there’s a resolution that could be had.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not with regards to those names that were provided, but at the end of the day, there was a request later on from the Provincial Liaison Team that was communicated to me through Commissioner Carrique with regards to the potential to have Ministers of the Federal Government and Ministers of the Provincial Government to intervene to provide a forum to listen to the protestors to see if those protests could be deescalated. But that happened later on, certainly not at this meeting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. He made a direct request to me, which I communicated to Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, at the end of the day, she did write a letter directed to Commissioner Carrique, where she would certainly make herself available to -- and this was in relation to Windsor. To make herself available to meet with the protestors if they left the protest and if they denounced this protest activity. So I’d have to refer to the actual letter. But the intent was to give the protestors an ear of the provincial and federal Ministers so that they could be heard in an attempt to de-escalate. I remember communicating with Deputy Minister Stewart that that was the request of the PLT, and I asked him to see what he could do to make federal Ministers available as well. And through various phone calls and discussions, Deputy Minister Stewart was not able to obtain the services of federal Ministers. I was able to get the Service Minister Jones to do that in Windsor. She was also willing to do that with regards to Ottawa.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
She was willing.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Because from my understanding, the letter did not have the desired effect in Ottawa, and from my understanding was that the protestors were interested in listening to or being heard by federal Ministers. So Minister Jones was certainly interested in making herself available to the Ottawa protestors, but the Federal Government needed to be there as well, because that would give the best chance of success.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
To the best of my recollection, it was the OPP PLT.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So two things. I continued to urge Rob Stewart to bring federal Ministers to the table, and I did that on my own, knowing that there was a potential resolution that could possibly be achieved, because if there was an interest in Windsor to do that, certainly there would be an interest in Ottawa. So I did that on my own. And the second thing I wanted to raise about that was that Deputy Minister Stewart certainly had direct conversations with Insp. Marcel Beaudin of the OPP PLT to see what the art of the possible was. So that was something that I was continuing to explore with Deputy Minister Stewart.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So in my communications were not with the local city or the mayor. My communications were with Deputy Minister Stewart. And we were just trying to find whatever options were available to try to deescalate this thing.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
To Deputy Minister Stewart? Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That he would endeavour to make that happen, but it did not come to fruition.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t. That would be a question for Deputy Minister Stewart.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It shouldn’t be. I think both governments had a role to play, and certainly Ontario had a role to play. An I’m certainly aware that the protest was not exclusively about the federal mandate. There were other groups that had other agendas. And I recognize that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree. But there is, to my understanding, an MOU between Public Safety Canada and the Ottawa Police Service with regards to provision of policing resources in and around Parliament Hill, which includes Wellington Street.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Are you talking about the concept that all requests need to go to the Province first and then to the Federal Government?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yeah, that’s -- from my understanding, that’s more of a policy through the Emergency Management process. And I think there’s a section in the federal Emergency Management Act that speaks to that. Basically, the idea is when there is a declared emergency that the province needs to exhaust its resources first it can go to the federal government for an ask. And likewise, that the municipal authorities need to exhaust their resources first before they can go to the provincial government.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I’m not aware that it delayed RCMP resources. No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So it’s not a matter for the provincial government or the federal government to deploy policing resources. That is the exclusive jurisdiction, from my understanding, of both Commissioners. They are the ones that have exclusive jurisdiction in deploying their resources, not the governments.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, nobody communicated that to me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
My takeaways were that Ottawa Police Service needed additional resources, and those resources were, in fact, being provided, to my understanding, by Commissioner Carrique and Commissioner Lucki. The main obstacle at this point in time was that there was not a plan by the Ottawa Police Service to dismantle the actual occupation. That was the critical problem.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’d have to check the entire note.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I want to be very careful about that because there was a plan with regards to the deployment of officers in Ottawa for maintenance purposes to deal with the influx of officers, to deal with radio calls, public safety issues that may or may not have been occurring. There was a plan to do that. What was not in place was a plan to dismantle the entire occupation. That was the barrier. And that plan, from my perspective, included a plan to deploy Public Order Units, a towing plan, an exit plan, a traffic plan, all of that. So when we say that Ottawa did not have a plan, I am specifically referring to what I was told was a plan to dismantle the entire occupation. That was the issue.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not speak to Commissioner Lucki.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. But I also received information from Chief Framer, I believe, earlier on and his view that Ottawa did not have that plan as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do not. That would be a question for him.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, the OPP has an obligation to keep track of the number of resources deployed to Ottawa in the event that there is a charge back to the municipality, so that’s why those numbers were being tracked.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I don’t believe the case. I think there was a request from the Minister’s office of the OPP wanting to know what resources have been provided to date, and that was provided.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, that’s not my understanding. My understanding is that that 1,500 number referred to a period of time, 10 days, I believe, total officers being provided to the Ottawa Police Service.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
At any one time? No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do understand that there was confusion.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. I received a call from Chief Sloly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe it was shortly after -- shortly after these numbers were released by the Minister’s office.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Chief Sloly was very concerned about the release of these numbers. He asked me to correct the narrative that had gone out to correct the press release. I informed Chief Sloly that these numbers were a compilation of numbers over a 10-day period and that they were cumulative in nature and not intended to represent 1500 officers on any given day.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be a question for him.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He was not happy.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From -- well, he wasn't happy that these numbers were released.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe that he was not happy because it put more pressure on him and that these numbers would be misinterpreted.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, no, not just that. Not just that. There were frontline police officers, there were intelligence officers, PLT officers, dispatchers. There's a whole range of officers that were being provided over that period.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Dismantle?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From who?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't remember him talking to me about that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not make those numbers public.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think it's not wise for anyone to make numbers of deployed officers publicly available.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That should be OPP. I'm sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, my understanding was that Commissioner Carrique was communicating to me that at a briefing that had occurred that day, Chief Sloly would be asking for twice the resources that he required.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Whether Commissioner Carrique had concerns?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, both he and I had concerns. I had concerns about why that would be done, but I was not privy to that briefing or that conversation. But as explained to me by Commissioner Carrique, at the end of the day, that issue was irrelevant, because there would be a planning team that would test whatever numbers were being asked for by the Ottawa Police Service, and that planning team would be staffed with subject matter experts, so they would test whatever plan. So given that Commissioner Carrique had communicated that very fact to me, I had a sense of comfort in knowing that this is just -- looking for the right word -- this is just noise. I was comforted in knowing that whatever the Ottawa Police Service would ask for would be tested by the planning team.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I was concerned that, if accurate, that Chief Sloly would take that approach, but I was also comforted by the comments of Commissioner Carrique that whatever numbers were asked for would be validated and tested.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe the request was for 1700 uniform police officers and 100 civilians.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So Premier's office, Cabinet office, Sol Gen, Ministry of Transportation, Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs, and there was a meeting with regards to Ottawa. And this was because Mayor Watson and the Chair of the Board had written that letter formalising the request to the Premier and the Minister. And given the fact that the letter had gone to the Premier, there was a meeting called to discuss, okay, what do we do with it. And my advice was that we give it to the OPP Commissioner, because it's his exclusive jurisdiction, to determine whether or not to deploy resources, for how long, and what numbers. And so the discussion was that we would refer this letter to the OPP Commissioner for his assessment. We were not in a position to direct the Commissioner to say, you know, we better request for 1700 and 100, please supply these resources. We don't have the ability to direct the Commissioner. That's his exclusive jurisdiction. And so we referred it to the OPP Commissioner for assessment only.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not entirely sure I was aware of this letter at the time. I knew that the request was -- for additional resources was going to be referred to the OPP Commissioner.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, and she's also highlighting that an operational plan proposed by the Ottawa Police Service, so it's both the resources that are being asked and also highlighting that an operational plan would be a good idea.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The resources to dismantle ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- were contingent on a plan, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And when I say that -- I’m sorry. And once again, the exclusive responsibility to deploy those resources were not of the government, were not of the minister. They rested with the OPP Commissioner.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. The OPP are not to be directed. They are independent. They have discretion. And independence and discretion is not to be trifled with. So the government cannot direct, cannot influence. It is his jurisdiction to see the way in which he deploys his resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
We were not in a position to make any suggestions. I was comforted in knowing that the OPP Commissioner was alive to this request and that he was more than willing to provide the requested resources contingent on the plan for the dismantling and removal of the protest, being - - being there, being validated by the subject-matter experts. That was the impediment.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m sorry?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not aware and not on it.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be a question for her, but it’s certainly consistent with what happened. There is not an ability to influence the OPP. There’s not ability to guide the OPP with regards to the deployment of resources. That is, under the Police Services Act, the exclusive jurisdiction of the Commissioner.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There was a legislative action that was taken, and that was with regards to the --- the declaration of a provincial emergency and emergency orders were issued as a result of that declaration.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Are you referring to legislation ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- or resources? So legislation, no, I’m not aware of any other legislation that could have been invoked. I think it’s also important to understand that, at this period in time, the existing authorities available to police were perceived to be sufficient by both Chief Sloly, by Commissioner Carrique, and certainly by me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m blue, commissioner’s green.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Because the letter was addressed to the Premier and to the Minister and I’m not in a position to speak for them, but we did have a meeting subsequently after that with -- and I’ve already testified to that -- with the Premier’s Officer, Cabinet Office, Secretary of Cabinet, et cetera, and it was determined at that meeting that absolutely it would be referred to the commissioner for assessment.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, it was communicated to me that the federal government, Ministers Blair and Mendicino wanted to meet with the Solicitor General and the Mayor of Windsor.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I know that their were either two or three meetings that occurred at the minister level.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, but there were two level of meetings ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- and I attended either three or four at the officials level. This notation is with respect to the ministerial level, or the political level.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, my response was that I would communicate the request to Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I passed on the request to Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There were, to the best of my recollection, three meetings. I don’t know whether she attended one or not, but certainly two of the three, she did not attend.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not part of this meeting, and perhaps that question can be asked of Minister Mendicino.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't understand, the province was concerned about being visible. We were visible. The province was providing all sorts of support and resources to Ottawa, so I don't understand the substance of the question.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't have any information on that. I'm sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was being done at the officials' level. That was being done between commissioners and chiefs of police as well. I was not aware of this call. I was not aware of the contents of this call.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, it would not be helpful because politicians ought not to interfere with the deployment of policing resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It is my position that the only people that are authorized in law to deploy resources are the commissioner of the RCMP and the commissioner of the OPP. They have sole jurisdiction. It's enshrined in the legislation. I don't know what the prime minister was thinking with regards to influencing and having either the RCMP and the OPP provide additional resources. That is not their role.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The resource requests were made. They were made public, they were made to the OPP commissioner for assessment, they were given to the RCMP commissioner. So those resources were being acted upon.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
How?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t see a role for politicians to be involved with regards to deploying resources. Those resources requests were quite clear, the RCMP and the OPP understood what those resource requests were, and they were best placed in law to provide those resources.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I didn’t say that. I just said that politicians do not have a role in asking police services to deploy resources. That is not an appropriate role.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The OPP commissioner, the RCMP commissioner, Chief Sloly were, in fact, coordinating. And that’s where the coordination belongs. This was a policing matter. It was a police response.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
About the other measures, the other solutions, what the art of the possible is, absolutely.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Completely disagree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't have a response. Those are the comments of the prime minister and any questions about those comments ought to be referred to him.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I have no knowledge.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Perhaps. Perhaps it would have been helpful to have discussions to see what the art of the possible is with regards to other solutions.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Potentially.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There's a lot to unpack there. Ottawa Police Service is the police service of jurisdiction, not the OPP, not the RCMP. And so we did not have the ability to impose the OPP on Ottawa without a direct request, without an invitation. So given the fact that they are the police service of jurisdiction, the OPP was in a position to provide the requested resources to deal with the problem.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, could you -- I'm sorry, could you ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- repeat the question?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, I just don't know how to answer that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But I have to say, Minister Jones was, in fact, engaging in conversations at the political level with Minister Blair, with Minister Mendocino, with Mayor Watson. Those calls were, in fact, taking place.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm assuming.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Which view?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had no conversations with Premier Ford.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I did not share that view with anyone at all.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I wouldn't say that Ottawa Police Service mismanaged. I think that this was an unprecedented protest of significant magnitude and scope. And I think that the Ottawa Police Service did its best based on the information that it had. It was incredibly trying circumstances, and I certainly didn't envy the position that the Ottawa Police Service was put in.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think that Commissioner Carrique prioritised the deployment of resources to the Ambassador Bridge. He communicated that to me, for a whole host of reasons, with which I agree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not aware of that, but I have to say that the issue of the Ambassador Bridge was being well reported by mainstream media. Everybody that had a TV was certainly aware of how important that crossing was to Canada and to the province.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I was not made aware by Chief Sloly, by Commissioner Lucki, or the OPP Commissioner of any additional tools at this point in time. And you said this is 9 February?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not made aware of any additional tools that law enforcement required to and either the occupation in Windsor, the blockade in Windsor, or the occupation in Ottawa.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Can you refer me to a specific sentence, please?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
With regards to -- I don’t know what “polar licenses” are, quite frankly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
“We can shut down their fuel consumption and cordon off highways.” I don’t know what he’s referring to when he’s talking about fuel consumption. With regards to cordon off highways, that’s quite evident. The ability to block and close highways using existing authorities in the Highway Traffic Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not in receipt of any request from our policing leaders for any additional resources, whether that was Windsor, Ottawa, Commissioner Lucki, Commissioner Carrique, Chief Ramer. At no time did anyone ask me for any additional legislative authorities.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
At that point of time, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So from my perspective, both the municipal road that leads to the Ambassador Bridge, provincial -- I’m sorry, municipal jurisdiction. And so the police service jurisdiction there is the Windsor Police Service. And in Ottawa, on Wellington Street and the surrounding area, obviously Ottawa Police Service is the Police Service of jurisdiction and they are the two entities that are responsible for resolving both those issues. Do they need support? Absolutely. Is there a role for the Federal and the Provincial Government to play with perhaps identifying interlocutors, with providing opportunities for mediation, for sitting down with protestors to negotiate? Absolutely. But it’s ultimately a policing matter to resolve, and the police services of jurisdiction have that responsibility.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well those discussions were in fact happening. They were perhaps not happening on a political level at a tripartite table, but they were happening between Minister Jones, the Premier, the Mayors of both Windsor and Ottawa, and certainly Ministers Mendicino and Blair. So those discussions were in fact happening.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So both Kingston and Ottawa have their own police services. Both police services are the police service of jurisdiction. The Province is there to provide the necessary support upon request.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Are you talking about generally or specifically with regards to Ottawa?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So certainly the Province does have a role to provide additional resources. And that’s done through the Commissioner of the OPP.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not necessarily. We still have other municipal police services as well that are able to assist. The policing meters in this province work collaboratively. They are all members of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police. Those calls were in fact happening on a regular basis. And so it is not just the OPP going to the RCMP for assistance. The OPP would have the ability to ask for resources from municipal police chiefs. A municipal police chief has the ability to reach out to other police chiefs to ask for resources as well. So certainly the Province has a role to play through the OPP, but so do municipal police chiefs as well. NA
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, depending on the situation. And we heard that Ottawa was an unprecedented situation requiring all three orders of government to participate.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not, but I was certainly thinking about the EMCPA on or about that point in time. What was saw was an escalation in terms of protests. We saw protests in both Sarnia -- I’m sorry, in Sarnia, Windsor, the Peace Bridge in Toronto, and Cornwall, so I had a growing concern about the escalation of protests specifically designed to thin out police lines to prevent police from responding in Ottawa.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was certainly thinking about it, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Abd Cabinet.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Solicitor General is certainly free to provide that advice.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Solicitor General certainly has the ability to provide a recommendation to the Premier.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m not aware of any discussions between the Minister and the Premier.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. Quite frankly, the Premier beat me to it. He signalled on the 10th of February that it was his intention to declare a provincial emergency. And given that signal, that intent on the 10th, several ministries started working together to permit the declaration to happen. And the essence of emergency declarations are for emergency orders to flow from that, so we were examining what emergency orders were required to support the emergency declaration. And one of the key people that we relied upon was Commissioner Carrique. So communicating to Commissioner Carrique, “There will be a provincial emergency declaration. What tools do you need to more effectively resolve the situation in both Ottawa and at the Ambassador Bridge.” And so that communication was ongoing between various legal departments, between my ministry, the Ministry of the Attorney General, Cabinet Office, Premier’s Office, and Commissioner Carrique.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I know that the signal for an emergency declaration was made and then we started consulting with Commissioner Carrique with regards to what tools he required.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know what the Premier was thinking but I was certainly in a position to have that decision on or around -- or that recommendation on or around the 10th simply because the matter was escalating. The number of protests were escalating. We saw repeated blockades and attempts in Sarnia, the Blue Water Bridge, Highway 402, Nipigon, Cornwall, the Peace Bridge, Windsor, Toronto, so certainly things were escalating, and I was certainly in a position to make that recommendation, and I would have had the Premier not beaten me to the punch.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So it’s cabinet office that prepares this briefing note.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And it’s not my ministry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
My ministry certainly had input into developing this note.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The objective was to -- well, there were a number of objectives. The objectives were to provide law enforcement with the tools that they needed to effectively deal with the Ambassador Bridge, Ottawa, and any other protests that could develop in the future. So the emergency orders were designed, in my view, to both deal with the existing occupations and protests, but also to prevent, and reduce, and mitigate the harm in the future. So it was both reactionary and future-looking as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Emergencies Management Civil Protection Act has a limitation in it, and that limitation is that all emergency orders need to be as minimally intrusive as possible. Given the fact that lawful protest is a Charter right, there was a concern that if we included the Parliamentary Precinct that people that are protesting some other issue would be impacted by that, and so we did not want to be over-broad with regards to including the Parliamentary Precinct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that particular measure was specifically designed to deal with the situation in Ottawa. We see that it refers and references “highways”. The definition of “highways” is taken from the Highway Traffic Act. And according to that definition, that certainly includes all the residential streets, including Wellington, in Ottawa. So this measure was specifically designed for Ottawa. And when we look at number 3: "If doing so would seriously interfere with the safety, the health, or wellbeing of member of the public." So specifically designed for Ottawa.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, because there's a caveat to it that the interference would have to either 1, 2, or 3: Seriously interfere with the safety, health, or wellbeing of members of the public, as an example. So this was not over broad.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, there was not that concern.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
We could keep going, Commissioner.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Did she consult with me?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Can you scroll up for me, please?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So it's articulated right here. Confirm that provincial offences officers can, in fact, remove objects, including vehicles themselves, as well as causing others to remove them. In B), give provincial offences officers who remove objects or cause them to be removed, the power to detain and store those objects.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Sure.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So ---
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So with regards to the -- I'm sorry, we were receiving additional information from Commissioner Carrique with regards to what additional powers he required. So when you look at B, for example, there was a concern that if a vehicle was seized, sent to the pound, a person could certainly pay the fine or the storage fee, get the car back, and then certainly join up again with the protest. So this particular emergency order gave the police the ability to store that vehicle for as long as the emergency order was in effect. Also, there was the issue, as articulated by ADM Freeman yesterday with regards to CVORs and ensuring that the police made reasonable efforts to notify those individuals that had CVORs and where the vehicles were being detained and stored. There was also the requirement to ensure that tow truck operators' storage yards were, effectively, compensated, and so there was a provision here that referenced the Storage Liens Act, I believe it was, that made it clear that any monies owing could be enforced through that particular Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So there was information of various convoys coming to the Ambassador Bridge from -- potentially from Ottawa, potentially from other parts of Ontario. I know that the commissioner informed me that there was a call by protestors to come to Ontario to assist. And so that concern was real. And so that’s one of the reasons why this emergency order was declared and put into force. There was a concern that there would be continued attempts to block Highway 402, the Blue Water Bridge, the Ambassador Bridge, the Peace Bridge, Toronto, Nipigon, Cornwall, et cetera.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not to my knowledge. I did not discuss this with Deputy Minister Stewart. I don't know whether Commissioner Carrique had that discussion with Commissioner Lucki.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, it certainly provided the ability to tow vehicles and other objects that were blocking the roadway. And it certainly provided the ability to immediately suspend drivers' licences, permits, and CVOR registrations. It gave the police the ability to remove vehicles themselves and the provincial offences officers themselves if necessary. It certainly gave police the ability to store seized vehicles for a long term so that they could not be reused in a protest. And it certainly imposed significant fines on individuals. As an example, violating one of these emergency orders, to my knowledge, the maximum penalty for an individual was $100,000; for a director of a corporation, $500,000; and for a corporation, I believe it was $10 million.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I certainly had discussions with Deputy Minister Stewart after the declaration of the emergency, and we did discuss some of these provisions. Deputy Minister Stewart informed me that at one point in time, after the federal government --I'm sorry -- or while the federal government was discussing the Emergencies Act, that the provincial declaration of emergency certainly had more teeth than the provisions in the Emergencies Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There's a two-part test in the EMCPA that has to be met, so I think an analysis would have to be done to see when that two-part test could have been met.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was thinking about it, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On or about the 10th when the Premier signalled that he had the intention to declare.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And that was primarily based -- well, I wouldn't say that the conditions were not there. That was primarily based on not receiving any direct request from any of our law enforcement leaders.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not clear on provincial mandates.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, we didn't discuss the difference between the two measures in any great detail. The discussion was about the fact that the federal government was considering the invocation of the Federal Emergencies Act.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The penalties, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, he had signalled to me the day before that the Federal Government was considering the invocation of the Act. And in this call here, I wanted to know whether or not that was in fact happening. He did not answer my question.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
This was me asking.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so. Yes, I believe so.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, because the Emergencies Act invocation from my view was national in scope. And so, not knowing what the Federal Government concerns were Canada-wide, I wasn’t really in a position to have those concerns.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I found out later.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No idea.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct. I thought that the Provincial Emergency Declaration and the Orders that flowed from them were sufficient to assist the police in resolving both Ottawa and Windsor. Having said that, the Emergency Orders that flowed from the Federal Emergency Declaration were certainly helpful and I know that they were used by law enforcement.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be a question for Premier Ford and Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I never turned my mind as to whether I supported the Act. I can tell you that the authorities granted by the Federal Emergencies Act were helpful and they were used by law enforcement.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Comm. Carrique informed me that he was prioritizing the resources for deployment to the Windsor Bridge for a number of reasons.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Knowing both the Minister and Comm. Carrique, the Minister would absolutely not direct the Commissioner, nor would the Commissioner receive that direction well. He would refuse it.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Because there is -- that’s an operational matter, and Government, Ministers, myself are simply not permitted to direct the OPP with regards to -- an operational matter and deployment of officers is considered an operational matter.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Provincial Police Resources, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
With regards to policy matters, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well that authorities continue within the Police Services Act. That the OPP Commissioner is subject to the Solicitor General’s direction, but my understanding from Ministry legal and Case law is that direction is only to apply with regards to human resources, budget, policy, and certainly nothing in regards to operations and certainly nothing in regards to any emergency provisions.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m not aware and I believe, had she done that, the Commissioner would have informed me.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So, it was Comm. Carrique that prioritized the deployment of resources to the Windsor blockade over Ottawa and, as he communicated to me, one of his considerations for doing so, one of many considerations, was the economic impact.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was informed by Deputy Minister Stewart at one point in time, on a phone call.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Deputy Minister Stewart informed me of that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There were engaged in Ottawa. There was a field officer from Emergency Management Ontario that was embedded in the Ottawa Emergency Operations Centre.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Provincial Emergency Operation Centre was in full activation mode on the 11th of February.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Provincial Emergency Operation Centre is located in Toronto.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So there are three levels of activation with regards to the Provincial Emergency Operation Centre. There is routine monitoring, there is enhanced monitoring, and then there is full activation. And the PEOC went into full activation on the 11th of February. Before that, it was in enhanced monitoring mode.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Eleven (11) -- oh, I'm sorry. I am not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be a question for Commissioner Carrique.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, Commissioner Carrique did make me aware of that concern.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would say, yes, with the support of the OPP, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the Solicitor General does have the ability to write the OCPC to ask it to investigate the provision of adequate and effective police services.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the OCPC has the ability to suspend and/or remove a Chief of Police. A Police Service Board of jurisdiction has the ability to suspend a Chief of Police. And in my view, in this particular circumstance, the entity that was best placed to deal with any performance issues that it perceived would be the Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think that that is a discussion that needs to take place with Legal Services. We are currently in the process of drafting regulations in regards to the Community Safety and Policing Act, which we hope, with Cabinet approval and legislative approval, to be brought into force some time in late 2023 or early 2024. So discussions certainly need to happen. But you're asking me a question about whether it's appropriate for the Solicitor General to have that authority? Perhaps. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the Commissioner of the OPP to have that authority, given the fact that he had responsibilities across the entire province and perhaps that authority would be better suited for the Commissioner to have the ability to step in and take over a particular operation if there was reasonable grounds to believe that adequate and effective services were not being delivered.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But in this situation, once again, I believe that the Police Services Board was best placed to deal with that issue.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. And with regards to this particular section here, I think that the Police Service Board is entitled to receive operational information in-camera. The Morden Report states that. Now, the Morden Report does not have the force of law, but one of the recommendations certainly says that a Board is entitled to receive that operational information. Now, had the Board not been satisfied with either the performance of the Chief or the provision of that operational plan, it had options.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It certainly could have invited the OPP and the RCMP to come in and brief it as to whether or not there was an operational plan to dismantle. It could have informed itself better. The Board had the ability, according to the Morden Report, to make recommendations to the Chief of Police, and the Chief of Police certainly had the ability to either accept those recommendations or not. The Board could not infringe on operations, could not direct the Chief on operations, but it certainly had the ability to make those recommendations. Had the Chief declined to accept those recommendations, that would have informed the Board as to what its next steps ought to have been. And one of the options was for the Board to make a request under section 9 of the PSA to the Commissioner of the OPP to step in and take over that particular operation. That was an option that was available to the Board.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So there was a Police Service Board Advisor from the Ministry in that confidential meeting.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Through Ken Weatherill.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t remember. May have been phone calls, text messages. Don’t remember.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Ken Weatherill.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He is the current Acting Assistant deputy Minister in charge of the Inspectorate of Policing Division.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He was communicating with his Police Service Board Advisor.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’d have to check the text messages and my notes. I’m not aware of him communicating his concern with regards to an external chief. I stand to be corrected. I just don’t remember.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. What I was most concerned about was that the impending decision for positive action not be interfered with. That was my main concern. We were going into the third weekend. There was a decision for positive action, the resources were in place, and my main concern was that if there was a new chief, that chief would have to be briefed up, would have to review whatever plan there was, and that would slow things down.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware of these discussions between the two Commissioners.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not aware at all. And what my position was with regards to the selection of the next chief, that was the exclusive jurisdiction of the Police Services Board and I certainly didn’t want my advisor to interfere with that at all.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know whether anyone followed up with these actions at all, but I made it clear to both Ken Weatherill and the Advisor that they were not to interfere with the exclusive jurisdiction of the Board and it was the Board’s sole responsibility to select the next chief, full stop.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m sorry, could you repeat that question?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think that the province did all it could have done. I think it did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From my vantage point, the emergency orders that flowed from the Federal Emergency Declaration were helpful. As an example, it provided indemnification to tow truck drivers. That is something that the provincial EMCPA does not permit. For example, the Federal Emergency Orders permitted the tow trick drivers, as an example, to be compelled. That is not something that the provincial EMCPA permits. The only thing that the provincial EMCPA permits is protection from liability, whereas the federal orders certainly go further. So they were very helpful in resolving the Ottawa situation.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
In terms of the Emergency Declaration?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
From a municipal perspective?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So, yes, I think one of the things that the Municipal Emergency Declaration -- you know, when you look at Section 4 of the EMCPA, it is exceptionally broad. And so, in addition to declaring the Municipal Emergency Declaration, it was open to the head of council to issue emergency orders, and that did not happen. Options available at the municipal level included increasing maximum fine for bylaw offences. Now, I know that they requested the regional senior judge increase the out-of-court settlements. That was done -- great -- but certainly not the maximum offences permitted. They could have done that. They could have permitted -- they could have issued an order preventing all sorts of activities. They could have leveraged Section 444 of the Municipal Act. They could have issued orders to stay out of a certain area. They could have issued an order prohibiting all sorts of activities within a defined area. So there were all sorts of tools that could have been provided by the municipality. Whether or not those additional authorities could have been enforced by the police service of the jurisdiction was up to the discretion of local police. And we’ve heard Chief Sloly talk about some of the impediments and challenges about enforcement and that they would be swarmed, that there was an aggressiveness to the protesters, but I think that equipping police in the earlier stages additional tools could have potentially been helpful.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Had there been a possibility to resolve that situation earlier, I would completely in favour of that. I have been around through a number of other situations where blockades lasted that long, and I reference the 2020 blockade of the CN rail in Tyendinaga. That took about three weeks to resolve. I reference the Caledonia issue, and that took several weeks to resolve, three to four weeks. And so, from my perspective, the operation in Ottawa to dismantle the blockade from a policing perspective was in fact a success. Let’s not forget, there was no loss of life. Nobody got hurt. Tear gas was not used. We did not have those ugly scenes of people with bloodied heads. And so from that perspective, the police operation to dismantle was a success. I’d rather be hear testifying at this Commission before this Commissioner than at several inquests in regards to deaths. I’d much prefer to be here today than at an inquest. So I think the operation to dismantle was a success and full compliments and kudos to the police officers that served so ably, and many compliments to the policing leadership that was present then. It was a difficult task for all concerned, including the residents, but including the police officers that served and the policing leaders as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not brief Cabinet.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
If called upon to brief Cabinet, I would be there to brief Cabinet.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s one of my roles.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It depends on what that advice is. It depends on what that -- the circumstances are.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I learned that at some point time, not entirely sure when.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
They would have better understanding than most.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was my understanding, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was a discussion I had with Commissioner Carrique, and that was a concern of his that he communicated to me, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't remember.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
They were volatile.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did talk to her about this call. To what extent, I don’t remember, and so I wouldn't -- I would not want you to think that I briefed her completely on the contents of this six-page report.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
My response was that the federal government had a role to play in this.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I understood from her question that the federal government was trying to wash its hands of this entire thing. That’s what I took from it.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Ontario was at a tripartite table at the officials' level.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. Yes. Deputy Minister Stewart certainly acknowledged that the federal government had a role, and that’s why I said that the comments of Jody Thomas were not aligned with that. I felt that she was communicating to me that she thought the federal government did not have a role.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, I know for a fact that it's in this document where he talks about the role of the federal government with regards to mediation and interlocutors.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. Keep on going. The other way. Right here. Question from Rob Stewart. "Can there be a core group of negotiators from Ontario, Canada, OPS, to support the diffusion of this protest in order to satisfy the political objectives of the federal government?" I took that to mean that he believed that the federal government had a role to play with regards to developing a core group of negotiators. So there's confirmation, from my understanding, there's confirmation by Rob Stewart that the federal government had a role to play.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. Yes, he does.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was speaking on my own behalf.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was speaking on my own behalf. I did not consult with the Premier or the Minister. This was a free-flowing open discussion, and so I did not have an opportunity to discuss what Ontario's position was.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what it's called. I had been informed that there is an MOU between Public Safety Canada and the Ottawa Police Service with regards to provision of policing resources in and around Parliament Hill. That is the extent of my knowledge. I don't know what the name of the document is, and I don't know what the contents are.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It would not surprise me.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
They would be challenges, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Denounce.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was my understanding. I did try to get Deputy Minister Stewart to sign onto the very same letter. I thought that having Ministers from the two orders of government could have potentially been more successful. I tried to get Deputy Minister Stewart to provide the services of the federal Ministers. He was unsuccessful.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know to what extent.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would defer to Inspector Beaudin, a leader of the PLT. I would refer to the Critical Incident Commander. I did not have a direct line of sight on those protesters.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not aware of what her testimony was, and I did not have any direct contact with her.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
If that was her assessment, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm generally aware. I'm not aware -- I have not read the letter. I'm not aware of the details, but generally aware.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
If you could show me that assessment, I'd appreciate it.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not have that discussion with the Minister or the Premier and I’m not in a position to define what Ontario’s position is on that issue.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That is the likely position. I can’t speak for the Ontario Government on that particular issue.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Likely, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
All of those replies were in reference to Jody Thomas, in my interpretation of her comments that the Federal Government did not have a role. And those are the things that were going through my mind in terms of the possible options that the Federal Government could have considered.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. I was also aware that the Federal Ministers were not focused on negotiation, just a show of collaboration.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Show.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That there were children in ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Minister Jones was invited. She did not intend. But she was having bilateral discussions on a frequent basis with Mayor Watson, Minister Mendicino, Minister Bill Blair.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. And from my perspective evidence, we’ve seen in some of the evidence here, Premier Ford was in contact with the Prime Minister, Minister Jones was in contact with various federal ministers as well.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had no discussions with Premier Ford.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
May I read it, please?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But the Emergency Orders continued for some period of time.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So to be clear, the Emergency ended on the 23rd of February in Ontario, the provincial one. The Emergency Orders continued because there was a fear, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It would appear from this that Comm. Carrique is green.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yeah, with regards to regular updates, situational updates primarily by text, but many frequent phone calls as well.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m sorry; is it the 12th of February?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m sorry; your question?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It would not.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Hello.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, I just want to clarify that. The operational plan to dismantle the ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- entire operation?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Chief Sloly.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So with regards to the performance of the Chief?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That is the exclusive jurisdiction of the Police Services Board, and from what I remember of Chair Deans testifying to, was that she was not getting the information that she required from Chief Sloly; it was all high level, and she used other adjectives to describe it. I think that would have been an opportunity for her and the Board to further inform themselves, because she had a concern that she was not getting the information that she required with regards to operations.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think the Mayor has a duty to provide that information to the Chair, simply because ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, but Section 3 also gives the Solicitor General the ability to provide advice to Police Service Boards writ large.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was one of many issues, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But there were many other issues, as communicated to me by Commissioner Carrique. There were many other groups that had infiltrated the trucker's convoy and there were many other agendas at play.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not in that -- from that perspective, no.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, that would be a provincial mandate.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not very well.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
At some point in time, I was.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's fair to say.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not just all about. As I've testified to, there were other concerns that the protesters were trying to communicate, so there were other agendas at play.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
At the very beginning, no.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The provincial mask mandates were one of the issues that the protesters were angry about, but they were also angry about the federal vaccine mandate imposed on January 15 for international truckers.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I clarified that and I testified that it was much more than an inconvenience. And Chief Sloly concurred with that assessment in his conversations with Mayor Watson and Ministers Blair and Mendocino. There's a document out there that I read, and he concurred with that assessment.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That it was an eyesore and that there was not any public safety concern.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not my meeting. He's having a meeting with Minister Blair ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He's having a meeting with Minister Blair, Minister Mendocino and Mayor Watson and that is his assessment.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not understand that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that. That's not my understanding.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was their position, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So what was needed to end the occupation was a fully developed operational plan to dismantle. That was the obstacle.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Had that occurred, yes, correct, but the Ottawa Police Service was also asking for resources from the OPP and the RCMP, and it is my understanding that the OPP provided each and every -- or provided resources to address each and every ask that Ottawa Police Service made.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The actual declaration?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, that is not fair to say. It was an exceptionally serious situation. When I talked about public safety risk, as I testified to earlier, I was talking about serious violent crime in accordance with the Criminal Code. That's what I was referring to. But it was exceptionally serious.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I didn't think that at all.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Over a period of time, from the beginning, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, sir. She put out from the very beginning, and I'd like to highlight that phrase, from the very beginning.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t believe I did.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
But after Chief Sloly contacted me, I did have a discussion with the Minister’s office about clarifying what that 1,500 number was, what it actually meant.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, people were misinterpreting what was said by the Minister.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Seventeen hundred (1,700), plus 100 civilians, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t remember. I was aware that the Chair and the Mayor had made a specific request for 1,700 plus 100. I don’t remember if I reviewed that letter or not. But I have reviewed it for testimony today.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t remember consulting with her, or her and I having a discussion about that. Suffice to say that that request went directly to the Commissioner of the OPP to make an assessment on the appropriateness of that number and whether or not to deploy the resources.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not. My recollection is that her position was that the request for resources were with the Commissioner of the OPP.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know, but I also wanted to flag what’s in that letter is her focus that the request was passed on to the Commissioner, and she references the operational plan as well.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. I believe that the deployment of OPP officers resides exclusively with the Commissioner of the OPP.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So first of all, the Morden Report was with regards to large planned events. This was certainly an urgent situation, it was an emergent situation, and the ability for the OPP to prioritize where to deploy his resources resides with him. That is an operational decision.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
One of the many factors was the economic impact.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t, but it was all over the media at the time. The media was reporting on the significant impact on the economy and the security of both Ontario and Canada. That was all over the news at the time.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. That would be one of the sources, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’ve heard all sorts of numbers. Anywhere between $350 million a day, up to $700 million a day. But I think the Commissioner also testified that one of the main considerations that he took into account for prioritizing the deployment of his resources to Windsor was the fact that Ottawa was not yet ready for positive action because there was not a fully developed operational plan to dismantle. Windsor was ready. Ottawa was not. That was a key consideration.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
What I’m testifying to is that the deployment of OPP officers resides with the OPP Commissioner.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good evening.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Some of it.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On or about. I knew that there was a significant build up of resources into Ottawa Police Service right about the Ambassador Bridge issue was resolved. And so those -- I can’t say whether it was the 17th of February or not, but there was a significant increase leading up to the positive action on February the 18th.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. The positive action actually started on the 18th. Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s what Commissioner Carrique told me, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m not entirely aware of Supt. Abrams’ testimony.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I cannot.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. But this was not the first time that I heard of that possibility.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had some of that information earlier.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. That there was a concern through intelligence sources that some elements of the trucker convoy were intending on staying much longer than the weekend. I actually saw a Tweet myself to that effect, monitoring social media, that the intention of some of these truckers, don’t know how many, were to stay the course.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree with that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And I have to say that all of the concerns that Commissioner Carrique was expressing to me about Chief Sloly, there was also the mitigation as well, that he was taking action to either confirm the reports or to talk to Chief Sloly. So I was getting a sense of comfort that there was significant dialogue going on between two exceptional leaders.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, if that perception is out there. I agree, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's one thing we learned, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
For a planned event, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not sure about your reference to three days.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And in fairness, I think that the OPP was providing incredible number of resources, subject matter experts as well, to assist the Ottawa Police Service, including the Integrated Planning Team, so that if the planning for such a major event was outside of the capacity and capability of the Ottawa Police Service, subject matter experts were in fact being provided to Ottawa Police Service to help them out.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't recall. I will accept your word.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I think developing an operational plan to dismantle, one of that magnitude, is incredibly difficult and complex, and one requires time, and one requires subject matter expertise.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, my understanding that was -- that there were changes to four incident commanders, so certainly that was a concern. I did not have the level of detail as to why that was happening.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So without that detail, did I have a concern about that? I did, but I didn't have the level of understanding to know why that was occurring either.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
At the end of the day, the Chief is ultimately responsible for the Police Service, so I think the buck stops with him with regards to that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I didn't have that information.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I understood that Commissioner Carrique was getting his information from senior OPP officers and other very reliable sources. I don't believe Commissioner Carrique was in the room and I certainly recognize that, you know, that was hearsay, the information that was coming to me.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It was made. So the correction was that the Communications officer and the Minister's office clarified in much greater detail the following day in response to media questions that that number was cumulative. So there was an attempt to dispel the misinterpretation by having the Communications officers tell the media and anybody that was asking, that that was a cumulative number and not an indication of 1500 officers in the OPS on any given day.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what the order was about OPS ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- correcting it. I'm sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not, and quite frankly, I was not overly concerned about that issue simply because I knew that the plan to dismantle, that would be tested and validated by the Planning Team.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct. It wouldn't -- the province would continue to support the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware of Chief Bell's testimony.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can't say that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what Commissioner Carrique testified to on that issue. I'm sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not entirely sure of that. From my perspective, two things. If there was a fully developed operational plan to dismantle and had all of those other demonstrations and occupations not happened elsewhere in the province, I think that Ottawa could have been ready for positive action much sooner.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
With regards to the deployment of OPP officers and Public Order Unit to the Ambassador Bridge, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I knew that there were OPP resources being provided to Windsor. For what purpose, I'm not aware. Likely, it was for maintenance purposes to make sure that public safety was maintained. I don't know when the Public Order Units were provided to Windsor with regards to dismantling the entire blockade.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. I don’t think so, because the footprint in Windsor was much smaller. The number of protesters was much smaller, so an operational plan could have been developed to dismantle the blockade in Windsor in a much more timely fashion because it was not as complicated as it was in Ottawa, so the provision of POU officers in Windsor before a fully-developed plan to dismantle Windsor was completely appropriate.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Okay.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be one of the considerations that the OPP commissioner could think about, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good evening.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I didn’t say it was political. What I said was that section 4 of the EMCPA does not allow for a municipal declaration of emergency for the purpose of putting pressure on another order of government.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
If that was the exclusive reason for declaring a municipal emergency, it would not have been proper.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
What do you mean?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I've never met Mayor Watson. The only thing that I've learned about Mayor Watson was that he was at one point in time, a provincial minister. I don't know what portfolio he held.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can't speak to that, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can't speak to that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So two examples come to mind. Minister Jones made herself available to the protesters in Windsor. Another example was when Federal Minister Marc Miller made himself available to the blockade, the CN Rail blockade in January of 2020 in an attempt to mediate and negotiate.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s the way it ought to happen. It did not happen that way in January of 2020.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
In January of 2020 when Minister ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- Marc Miller made himself available to negotiate the CN blockade.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm saying that he did that without consulting the OPP.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. I had discussions with Deputy Minister Stewart about getting federal ministers to the table, and Minister -- I'm sorry, Deputy Minister Stewart was not successful.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I know for a fact that Minister Jones was, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
When it comes to investigations, deployment, operations, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct, with regards to operations, and deployment, and investigations, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I know that there were many politicians that were involved in discussions, that it was an urgent situation. And so many politicians expressed their views publicly.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I don’t think so. I think the Commissioner and I, certainly the Commissioner, were focused on providing the resources that Ottawa needed to dismantle the entire occupation. So from my perspective, all of that was noise. The Commissioner was focused on providing those resources, subject toa fully developed operational plan to dismantle the entire occupation.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be a question for the police that were dealing with the issue. I’m sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Hello.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I wasn’t aware that it was built upon Ipperwash.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Okay.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That is a specific recommendation in the Morden Report, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I won’t fight you on that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And board policies, and board objectives, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. This was a major event and I reverted to my past practice as a police officer in taking as many notes contemporaneously as I possibly could. There are -- certainly there are gaps. I did not record each and every discussion that I had. I simply didn’t have that capacity.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the practice was with regards to the daily situational reports that were coming in to me from Commissioner Carrique, I would do a copy and paste, and send the same text message to the Minister.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be fair. However, there was a role for Ministers and politicians to play with regards to exploring possible solutions.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. I know that Minister Jones and the Premier were certainly engaged in many bilateral conversations throughout this entire period.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can’t determine that, because I was not privy to those conversations. I knew that both Premier Ford and Minister Jones were having many bilateral conversations with a whole host of people.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware of that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Premier Ford signaled his intention to declare a provincial emergency on or about the 10th.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would not be fair, no.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what that reference is. I'm sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to speak on that. I have not reviewed any notes or any material, so I'm not prepared to speak on that. I'm sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I can't help you there. I'm sorry, I'm not prepared.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That was my evidence, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's my general understanding, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I'm not an expert on the Emergency Act, but that's my general understanding.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that's a legal question. I'm not prepared to answer that. I'm sorry.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not sure how to answer that, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would agree with that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree with that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right, but those discussions were in fact happening. They may not have been at the formal tripartite tables at the federal level with politicians, but they were happening bilaterally, so there was an exchange of information going on.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
A no-go zone? I don’t know what Chief Sloly was proposing.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know what Chief Sloly ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- means by red zone, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not invited to the meeting.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And I cannot ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not invited to the meeting, and so I did not attend.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It appears that Chief Sloly is talking about a zone where vehicles can be impounded and towed from.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And that’s what they did.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right, but that was not an applicable section for this particular emergency.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Can you put up the EMCP Act for me, please?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, I am.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Sure. So with regards to evacuating individuals and animals and removing personal property, from any specified area, evacuating individuals, from my understanding, pertains to invoking that authority when there is a large natural disaster impacting the health and safety of people. And so taking and making arrangements for the adequate care and protection of individuals and property, that does not apply to the current situation ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- in Ottawa.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well evacuating, in my view, has a very specific meaning. I don’t think it is applicable at all.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And I can tell you, sir that in drafting these emergency orders, legal departments from the Ministry of the Attorney General, SOLGEN, Cabinet Office, Premier’s office, the Ministry of Transportation, were all engaged, and had that been a section that could have been leveraged, it would have been. The opinion of the legal department from all of those ministries was that that particular section was not applicable to this situation.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
What do you mean by a red zone?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well that in fact was done by the Emergency Order, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It was done by the Provincial Cabinet, sir.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, sir. The prohibition to block any roadway or walkway and the ingress and egress was something that was specifically done in the Provincial Emergency Order. So blocking, impeding egress and ingress into any highway and walkway was something that was done by the Emergency Order in the Province of Ontario.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I think that point would have been moot. And I say that because the problem was already there. It was already defined. The problem was these large heavy trucks in a defined area. And what the Provincial Cabinet did was give substantial authority to remove those trucks, to impound, and seize those trucks, and hold them until the Emergency Orders were no longer in place.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
She was not.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Province did declare a State of Emergency under provincial law.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think Minister Jones was well aware of what the problem was without attending that call. She was well aware of what the problem was.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Provincial Emergency Orders dealt with the red zone and the impound zone. They did - - they provided prohibitions against ingress and egress and blocking highways and walkways, and they provided police with the ability to seize vehicles within that zone there. So in effect, it did create both.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
They were created.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The issue ---
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The issue, sir, the issue, sir, was addressed in the Emergency Orders. The issue was addressed.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good evening.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
He was providing me with the information that he was in receipt of.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Generally speaking, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I haven't read this entire report, but I accept your word.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, where is that, sir?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I'm -- no, you're correct. I believe the first indication in these reports that there would be a longer-term stay was on the 27th.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There were no grounds to stop or divert, no.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I wouldn't say the word "ushered". They certainly facilitated the right to peaceful protest, and my understanding was that the OPP did not have any grounds to stop or divert, generally speaking. There may have been reason to do that on an individual basis, but generally speaking, there was not a right to do that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would not say that. I know that there was a report from the provincial security advisor on the 27th that indicated that some elements of the convoy were going to be staying longer than the weekend. There was information on the 27th from the provincial security advisor that one of the reasons why the truckers were there was to get rid of the federal trucking -- I'm sorry, federal vaccine mandate on truckers, and that they would not be leaving until that demand was met.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Can you give me a second to read this, please? So there's talk about disruptions that may gridlock areas around Parliament Buildings and other parts of Ottawa, so that part of it is in there in the assessment.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There is no expressed departure date for participants or a clear timing of when actions may end, and that’s in there.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct, but there's also information here that some supporters may attempt to disrupt businesses of government by holding events at or near City Hall's provincial government facilities, et cetera. So that did, in fact, happen.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
And there was significant disruption to business. Yes, I'm aware of that.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And the flow, the information that the provincial -- I'm sure the Emergency Management Office had was primarily from municipal sources.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not aware of any information indicating that there were bombs on these trucks.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Certainly, there would be a concern if the OPP knew a particular truck had a bomb and permitted it into the city, yes, that would be a concern.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I think the OPP was also duty bound to respect the Charter of Rights and Freedom, which gives protesters the right to protest and assemble.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm sorry, where are you at? Where are you at?
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, I can't speak for the OPP in terms of the way in which they receive requests, but I would generally agree with you.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good evening.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Hello.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Generally speaking.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
You'd have to tell me what the nature of the conversation was before I can respond.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not to my knowledge.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
It was all over mainstream media, yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
-
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware of this letter.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I have not spoken to the current Minister about this issue.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Sorry, as of what date?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Used a what approach?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what that means.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Emergency Management of Ontario is in receipt of these emergency plans from every municipality. They are reviewed. So I don't know to what extent any advice or critique is presented back to the municipality.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I know that every Ministry is required by the EMCA to have an emergency management plan.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I am aware that there is current legislation on the books, Keeping Ontario Open for Business Act, that does just that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Minister, to my understanding, that is responsible currently for the Keeping Ontario Open for Business Act, which addresses critical infrastructure, is Treasury Board.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not currently.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I am not aware.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Are you talking about PEOC?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
They do send field advisors to provide support and I know that that was done with regards to Windsor.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
With the Community Emergency Management Coordinator, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct, and there is support and advice provided by the field officer from EMO.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Those are the duties of the field officer that was deployed.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I accept that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
To what extent MMAH had a role I'm not entirely sure. I know that they managed two disaster recovery funds with regards to people, individuals and businesses.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know the answer to that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. So they played an advisory role should municipalities have any need for advice from the provincial experts that were made available to them.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not sure that there would be a requirement to ask first. The duties of field officers are to be present and to provide that advice upon request, and if they see that something is not going according to plan, they are certainly free to provide that advice.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, I wouldn't say that. They were in enhanced monitoring mode for both.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I'm not sure of the date. I'll accept your word.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know the answer to that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There was not a requirement to publish a framework prior to April of this year.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There was a provincial emergency management plan that was available online.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Hello.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
May I ask that you put that section up, please?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, that's one of her -- one of the duties, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I'm not aware of that Supreme Court case but I will take your word for it.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's one of the ways. The other way she fulfills this duty is by speaking to Chiefs of Police and receiving public complaints with regards to adequate and effective police services. So if the Solicitor General is aware of public complaints that the Service is not delivering adequate and effective police services, Solicitor General can take action.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I wasn't there at that meeting and I've only read this particular report in preparation for this testimony.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I was relying on the information provided to me by Ken Weatherill.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, because Ottawa Police Service was getting sufficient and significant support and resources from the OPP.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And those services were being provided by Ottawa Police Service and the OPP.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m sorry, whose speaking notes are these?
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’ve never seen this before.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that information was not communicated to me. Any concerns about the provision of adequate and effective police services were mitigated by the fact that the OPP was providing significant resources to assist the Ottawa Police Service.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s not what I testified to. The resources for the provision of Public Order Units to dismantle the occupation were contingent on a fully developed plan to dismantle the occupation. The OPP was providing significant and sufficient resources to address any of those concerns.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And any risks, as I’ve -- I’m sorry, any concerns were mitigated by the fact that the Commissioner of the OPP was working hand in hand with Chief Sloly and providing significant resources to address those concerns.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No. No. Please do not put words in my mouth. The resources to dismantle the occupation were contingent on the operational plan that dealt with that issue. The OPP was providing resources with regards to maintenance and public safety without that plan.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
There is a Morden Report that speaks to that.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, section 9 deals with that issue.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. And that guidance was provided, because it clearly states in that email that the Morden Report was referenced. Chair Deans had the knowledge, as you indicated just now, that the Ottawa Police Service, according to Chief Sloly, was not providing those services. So then section 9 would apply. Under that situation, my testimony is that the Chair, upon a resolution of the entire Board, had the ability to ask the OPP Commissioner to come in and give assistance.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t know what this document is. I’m sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that would be a question for the Police Service Board Advisor. Having said that, it is my expectation that Police Service Board Chairs and all members be intimately familiar with their duties and responsibilities in the Police Services Act. They have access to independent legal counsel, they have access to Executive Directors as well. The Advisor cannot be the only source of information that they rely upon.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that’s a question for Lindsey Gray.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I reject that assertion completely.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I reject that assertion completely.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don’t recall.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
You did.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be fair.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. I think some context is important as well. The reason why I’m having this discussion and asking these questions is because Deputy Minister Stewart referenced the previous day, I believe, on the 13th, that the Federal Government was considering an emergency declaration, but they were exceptionally reluctant to do so because the provincial emergencies regulations had more teeth in terms of financial penalties. So that’s why this discussion was happening.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Minister Jones.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I’m not entirely sure on the timing.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s exactly right.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Permitting the procurement, yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Act does not provide the ability to compel.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
You’d have to put that section up. I’m sorry.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I agree.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
To some extent. One thing that 13.1(3) does not do is provide for compensation for any loss to property from a future perspective. So if the tow truck companies were concerned about being reimbursed for an arson, for example, at their warehouse, that would not be provided for, in my view, in regards to this particular section.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not necessarily. Even participating in the program and having their building burnt down at some point in time in the future.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I’m talking about the theoretical possibility of a tow truck company having their building burnt down for participating in the removal of tow trucks.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, and the province also had an application to freeze the assets with regards to the GoFundMe as well.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe so.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I am aware.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right. It authorises but does not require.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Right.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Certainly. I think there is an opportunity for greater coordination amongst governments and police services and intelligence agencies. I think Chief Sloly referred to that very thing, especially in regards to intelligence sharing. And I would certainly endorse that suggestion, recommendation by Chief Sloly. I've also had the opportunity to briefly review the recommendations made by Commissioner Carrique, and I certainly support and endorse those recommendations that he's made. Over and above that, I would also suggest, this is my own personal opinion, that a task force of some type be put together to study the issue of the right to protest. And it's enshrined in the Constitution, but what are the limits, because my understanding is that people have an understanding that protests can occur at any time, in any location, for any length of time. So are there reasonable limits that ought to be imposed? I don't know what the answer to that is. That's something that this Commission could certainly suggest that that matter be studied in regards to lawful protest. There are limits that can be prescribed. I'm not in a position to determine what those limits ought to be. But certainly, I think that the public needs to be reminded that when you exercise your rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that you also have responsibility to your fellow citizens as well, and that those rights are certainly not absolute. Those are my comments, Commissioner.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s certainly something that this Commission could make recommendations on. I think there is opportunity, there are opportunities for greater collaboration. I think one of the key differences between the police operations in Windsor in comparison to Ottawa was that the OPP provided key leadership in terms of command and control. They made it clear to the Ottawa -- I’m sorry, to the Windsor Police Service, that they were in charge. There was a very rapidly developed, unified command. Very rapidly. And the scope and scale of the Windsor blockade was certainly much smaller, but it was that coordination where Windsor Police Service accepted unified command and the lead by the OPP very quickly. I think that was a critical point for Windsor to have done that resulted in the dismantling of the blockade that much more quickly.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do. I do. I think that in those rare occasions when police services do not have the capacity and the capability to deal with urgent events, prolonged events of the size, and scale, and scope that we saw in Ottawa, that there be some way to compel the police service to accept the services, the leadership, the subject matter expertise, of those police services that do have that capacity.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do. And I can assure you, Commissioner, that this province right now is in the process of implementing the brand new Community Safety and Policing Act. And we are in the process of consulting with many stakeholders with regards to the regulations to support that Act. And I can I assure you, Commissioner, that we are listening with ears wide open with regards to what is happening here in this Commission and the evidence that has been presented. I cannot speak to what regulations can be implemented, but this is certainly a concern that I will be taking back and sharing with the Minister.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Absolutely. I believe that the recommendations made by this Commission with regards to policing will certainly inform decisions made by the Minister and by Cabinet.
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Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So in practical terms, Commissioner, the Provincial Emergency Management Civil Protection Act in the last four years has been -- Emergency Declarations have been made four times. With regards to the Federal Emergencies Act, as you’ve indicated, once in 40 years. So I’m not sure that the reality is such that both Acts ought to be coordinated. I think the Provincial Act is certainly invoked more often to deal with all sorts of emergencies and the Federal Act, obviously, less frequently.