Volume 14 (November 1, 2022)
Volume 14 has 339 pages of testimony. 26 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Wendy Clements.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Chris Barber - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 670 times)
- Brigitte Belton - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 376 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 345 times)
- Steeve Charland - Farfadaas (spoke 324 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 207 times)
- Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 172 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 161 times)
- Alexandra Heine, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 129 times)
- Andrew Gibbs, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 127 times)
- Jane Scharf, Counsel - Brigitte Belton (spoke 93 times)
- Caroline Laverdière, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 86 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 83 times)
- Ewa Krajewska, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 63 times)
- Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 37 times)
- Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 36 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 25 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 25 times)
- Rebecca Jones, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 22 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 19 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 13 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 7 times)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 6 times)
- Rebecca Shepherd - Brigitte Belton (spoke 4 times)
- Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel - Steeve Charland (spoke 3 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 3 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l'état d'urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just a couple of comments before we get started. This -- the rest of this week, the witnesses being called are in a little different situation in the sense that most, if not all, do not have a witness statement that's been filed, and in some cases, Commission Counsel may not even have interviewed them or interviewed them to any extent. So the estimates of time are, therefore, a little less certain than they normally are. So I just want to raise, if people -- some of the parties have put time in, if you like, as a stakeholder in case something came up, you might want to advise Commission Counsel at the end of the evidence that you're -- you -- there is no need. And those who see something come up that makes it such that they feel they need more time, can maybe be given more time. So I'm going to be a little more flexible than normal in the circumstances because we don't really know what's going to come out and to what degree it will affect one or other party more than what was expected. So I'm just setting that out. The times are challenging this week. They will be big weeks, big days, rather, so I will still be somewhat strict about timelines, but flexible if there is movement available, given that some people, I suspect, and I don't mean to suggest anything nefarious, but people may have taken positions on timing they won't need. So that's just as a preliminary, and that would apply, I think, for the witnesses for the balance of the week. So with that brief introduction, have we got a witness planned?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, the next witness is Chris Barber.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (APPLAUSE)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if I could ask, and I realise there's a fair amount of interest by some parties, and maybe some emotional investment in some of the testimony, but I would ask that we keep it the way it normally is in a courtroom and in a -- an inquiry so that we can keep it going also. We don't have much time. So with that, go ahead.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Barber -- sorry, Your Honour. Mr. Barber, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Swear on the Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Christopher John Barber, B-A-R-B-E-R.
MR. CHRISTOPHER BARBER, Sworn
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I am Commission Counsel. Before I begin my questions, I believe your counsel wants to make a statement.
STATEMENT BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, sir. For the record, Brendan Miller, counsel for Freedom Corp. As I believe you already know, we've made invocations under all Evidence Act provisions, both federally and provincially, as well as section 13 of the Charter. That's been done in writing. I wonder if I have to do that each and every time the witness testifies or if the Commission has accepted written invocation I have already provided, sir?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we can deem that the witness has objected to answers each and every question, and that -- on the grounds of the answers may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish liability in a civil proceeding. So I think that's taken as a given, and has been filed in the record.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, sir. That's all. That's my statement.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So good morning, again, Mr. Barber. Just so you're aware of the process today, I'm going to ask you questions for approximately the next 90 minutes. When I'm complete, the parties who have requested time will have time to ask you some questions themselves, again, for, depending on how things go, roughly 90 minutes, and we will have a final opportunity to ask you some follow up questions if that proves necessary. Okay?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I want to start with some basic information about yourself. So I understand that you're from Swift Current, Saskatchewan; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am; correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you lived in Swift Current?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All my life, 47 years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that you operate a trucking business called CB Trucking Limited. Do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just briefly describe the nature of that business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Long haul, short haul. We haul agriculture equipment across the Prairies and into the United States.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's your role with the business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm the business owner and a driver.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how many other drivers do you have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I employ my son and a couple other lease operators, contract employees.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you been in the trucking business?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Since I was 18, so just 28 years, roughly.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you operating CB Trucking in January of 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the Commission understands it, Mr. Barber, you were one of the original organisers of the Freedom Convoy that arrived in Ottawa in January of 2022.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it you agree with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you just have to make sure you speak audibly when give your answer ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- just for the transcript. Thank you. How did you get involved in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was contacted by Brigitte Belton, another social media follower, via the app TikTok. Communication started from there, speaking about possibly slow rolls to protest the mandates for the border crossing coming into effect January 15th for cross border travel for commercial vehicles.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall when Ms. Belton first contacted you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was the beginning of January sometime, the dates might be fuzzy. January 8th, January 7th, somewhere in there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you know Ms. Belton before ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What did you come to know about Ms. Belton?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She's just another trucker, a cross-border driver that was facing her job to be lost on the 15th of January unless she complied with the mandates.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did Ms. Belton -- what was she asking you to do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Get involved to start something to try and speak out against the government going too far in some of these mandates?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say government going too far in some of these mandates, can you explain at that point in time what mandates were concerning you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The cross border travel, specifically.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are you talking about the decision of the Federal Government to no longer exempt truckers from the requirement that they be vaccinated, otherwise they would have to quarantine?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You mentioned that Ms. Belton communicated with you on TikTok. Did I hear that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Perhaps for the benefit of the Commission, and maybe people who don't -- who aren't as familiar with social media, can you explain what TikTok is?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
TikTok is an app, a social media app. Short videos under three minutes. My daughter got me into it about three, four years ago, approximately. I surpassed her in followers right away, so that made her quite anxious.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to getting involved in TikTok, were you using any other social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I was on Facebook.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you noted that you attracted a lot of followers. In January of 2022, do you know how many followers you had on TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Prior to the convoy?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would've guessed, roughly guessed at around 30,000, maybe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thirty thousand. And you know, in -- by the time, you know, in mid-February 2022, which we'll get to, but how did your followers grow at that point in time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Quite significantly. We were up -- I don't know the numbers. There were 170,000, somewhere in there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So again, prior to Ms. Belton contacting you, can you give us a sense of the sort of content you were posting on TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A lot of trucking videos, hauling videos, just -- I'm generally a smart guy on social media, a lot of humour.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you posting at all about COVID-19 ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and public health measures?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How would you describe the nature of those posts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Angry. Very angry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why were you angry?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The mandates. The provincial mandates, the federal mandates that they just keep tossing more on. It seemed like it was just an overreach or over -- it just -- they went too far on a regular basis, and it was very frustrating.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did the COVID-19 public health mandates affect you personally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We lost a lot of drivers. What freight I can't handle myself for my company I share with other fellow drivers and other company owners. We lost -- the government likes to say 10 percent of cross border drivers. I didn't see that, I seen it more 35 to 40 percent. We lost a lot of drivers, like a tremendous amount of drivers, where freight was backed up both sides of the border and caused some significant trouble.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say you lost a lot of drivers, what about -- and I understand when we're talking about public health restrictions we're talking at various levels of government, but what about those restrictions led to you losing drivers?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The lack of the drivers getting the vaccination to be able to cross the border as of the 15th.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say as of the 15th, do you mean as of the 15th of January 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what I understand you to be saying is that the government's decision to no longer exempt truckers from vaccination at -- from vaccination requirements, that was your concern projecting forward.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you lost drivers prior to that in relation to ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- COVID-19?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is there any other ways that the -- that -- again, it doesn't matter the level of government for the purpose of the question. Is there any other way that the public health restrictions relating to COVID-19 affected you personally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Personally? When the COVID vaccine passport came in it made things a little tricky. We weren't allowed to enter restaurants anymore. It was -- I trucked throughout the whole pandemic, I never stopped. I was eating in my truck. I had a coffee pot -- a coffeemaker in my truck. The restaurants were closed, gas stations were closed, bathrooms were closed. It was really tricky. I remember about two weeks into the pandemic thinking this isn't worth it and going home. And then the customer demands kept climbing, so I ended up -- I stayed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you, yourself, get vaccinated?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you make that decision?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've spent the better part of 16 years running my company, keeping the big carriers away from my customer base, and I was at risk of losing all that hard work to not being able to cross the border anymore.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say big carriers, it's my understanding that you, CB Trucking Limited, is an independent company; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a small company, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to the Commissioner what it means to be an independent trucker as opposed to a big carrier?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Independent carriers, three trucks on my fleet, it's a lot harder to run a smaller company like that compared to the big companies. Most of my competition is up around the 200 -- 50 to 200 trucks.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated in your earlier response that your TikTok following grew as you participated in the Freedom Convoy. In terms of discussing the Freedom Convoy and planning the Freedom Convoy did you use any other social media other than TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did, Facebook, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Any other social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Snapchat.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A little bit on Instagram, I'd say, but not much.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I've -- the Commission has seen in some of the documents relating to you that at times you would refer to yourself as an internet troll. Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Unfortunately, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you explain to the Commission what it means to be an internet troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A troublemaker, online troublemaker.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you maybe give an example of what that means, you know, when it comes to TikTok, for instance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, on TikTok I deal with trolls on a regular basis. They constantly attack me. Usually they’re faceless. Some of them you can see their profiles. I engage with them like I always have. I fight back and forth with them on a regular basis, and I’ve done that for many years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Belton reached out to you and began discussing the possibility of a convoy or a slow roll, I take it that was something you were interested in participating in?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To speak my part, to do my part to protest. To try and get the government to start listening to us.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And picking up on that last part, what -- at the outset, what were you hoping to achieve by participating in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I primarily wanted the government to listen to our concerns.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you politically active before COVID-19?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you an active member of any political party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One final question about TikTok. We’ve seen information that suggested that in January 2022 you had multiple TikTok accounts. Is that ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you have more than one TikTok account?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The internet troll that I would like to be would constantly become banned for posting inappropriate things or things that went against community standards, so your punishment for that would be seven days -- three to seven days off the device, so you would log into another account.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you were suspended, you would then open another account so you could continue posting.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you find it hard to gain the followers you had when you started with a new account?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No. I’ve always ran a couple different accounts. Right now I think I post on three different accounts.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Ms. Belton contacts you and you said you recall was perhaps early in January 2022 and begins asking you about slow rolls and potentially a convoy. What happened next?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Discussions started. We then moved forward with planning. Other people, other members, other teams became involved really fast. We realized that there was -- there was a lot of support behind us the more we got into the logistics of it all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were involved in the early discussions?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Early discussions, Brigitte Belton and I, a male called Dave Steenburg, and with that, Brigitte introduced me to people like James Bauder with Canada Unity, Patrick King, online social media guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll have some questions about the moment, but I think what would be beneficial to the Commission is to understand how -- you know, to the extent you can explain it, how you go from Ms. Belton contacting you, raising this idea and then getting to the point where you’re organizing what becomes a large event. Can you explain sort of how that progressed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was completely organic. Everything just literally fell right onto place. It was -- I believe it was about two weeks from the time we started talking about it to the time we actually left. It was extremely fast.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was organizing and planning the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All of us. There wasn’t one, necessarily, a leader. It was a group of organizers per se. We had people in every province that stepped up. We had helpers in every province that stepped up. We had helpers in every province. It was all -- everyone just came together.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there people who were more involved in planning than others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, myself, Tamara Lich, Brigitte Belton, James Bauder and Patrick King.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in those two weeks, how was the convoy promoted?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via social media, for the most part.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you provide some more information?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Tamara Lich and I were in contact I believe the middle of January. The specific date may be around the 13th, maybe the 10th. Tamara started a Facebook page and a Twitter account for Freedom Convoy 2022. And the word started to spread from there. We kept up on our TikTok videos. We all did Facebook lives. We all promoted it via our independent social media apps.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that Ms. Lich started the Facebook page, as you indicated, in or around January 13th. Prior to that, what promotion had been done about the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very little. Very little.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had any promotion been done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just little things on social media just getting the word out and finding out who was willing to help and who was coming to the parade.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It’s the Commission’s understanding that you participated in a Facebook live event on January 13th, 2022. Do you know what I’m referring to?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in that Facebook live event, in attendance were yourself, James Bauder, who you’ve referenced, Ms. Belton, who we’ve spoken about, and Pat King. Does that accord with your recollection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And there was other individuals there who were assisting and planning. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that that video took place prior to Mrs. -- Ms. Lich’s involvement. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe Ms. Lich was involved at that point. I believe that she was busy that night and could not attend that, if my memory serves me right.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And have you reviewed that video prior to your testimony?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And it’s approximately an hour and a half long, and subject to any comments from the parties, what I suggest to do is just read out the document ID and have it entered without showing the video itself because I would run out of time if that had happened. So it is COM00000829. And the Commission has also asked a transcriptionist to prepare a transcription of that video, which I may ask you about later, but again, I’m just going to read out the document ID right now, which is COM00000838. So Mr. Barber, I can take you to portions of the transcript if it will assist, but in reviewing the video, it strikes the Commission that, at that point in time, both Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were active -- were already actively involved in planning routes and promoting the convoy to the people that they were already connected with. Is that a fair statement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were promoting the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I add -- I can add that Canada Unity became involved, and Canada Unity was actually planning -- I learned later they were planning some sort of a route across Canada to Ottawa for a protest. They had the stops and everything already planned. They had a web site ready. They had -- everything was all in place, to my recollection.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So yes, the Commission’s understanding is Mr. Bauder had a web site through Canada Unity and on that web site there was already route maps and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- stops and locations. Is that your understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Bauder is expected to testify, and we can ask him more questions about that. So I just want to clarify what you said there. Was -- is it your recollection that that planning was already in place by the time you were connected with Mr. Bauder?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder got connected to you and Ms. Belton?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe through Brigitte Belton.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video from January 13th, 2022, which I’ve already referenced, Mr. Bauder presented a document that he referred to as a Memorandum of Understanding. Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of the Memorandum of Understanding before January 13th, 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir. No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And just for the sake of the transcriptionist, just if you could wait till I’m finished my question before answering. Just cleaner transcript. So were you aware of that memorandum?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What do you recall Mr. Bauder saying about the Memorandum of Understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I reviewed the video just a couple days ago, and I remembered again. He just -- I believe he just explained how the document worked and that it had already been sent to the government -- Governor-General and to the government, I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if, at that time -- and when I say at that time, I mean January 13th -- if you had an understanding then what Mr. Bauder was hoping to do with his Memorandum of Understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I just -- I ignored it. I don’t know. I wasn’t into that sort of thing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And again, we’re -- we expect to hear from Mr. Bauder and we’ll hear his evidence on it. The Commission understands that one of the things that the Memorandum of Understanding presented was a notion that in respect of the COVID-19 mandates that there -- Mr. Bauder believed that there was not enough time for lawsuits to challenge those mandates and that, in fact, through a piece of law called the Helsinki Act that the -- a group of -- a citizens committee could come to an agreement with the Senate and any mandates they viewed as unlawful would stop. Is that your understanding of, ultimately, what the Memorandum of Understanding meant?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge. To this day, I still have yet to read the Memorandum of Understanding. I have no clue what’s in the document and I will never read it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In January 2022, did you have any understanding what Mr. Bauder's roles were with the convoy that he had organized?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not. Like I said before, it was a matter of a whole bunch of different groups coming together at the perfect timing and having that input into the planning of it, and everyone had their piece. And we were so unorganized for the most part, we used whatever we could, whatever means, whatever tools we could find.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the early planning stage, what was Brigitte Belton doing?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Same as myself. She was posting TikTok videos and promoting through her Facebook.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King who was on the January 13th livestream, what was he doing?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the same thing. Patrick had a quite large following on social media, especially Facebook. So he promoted and did videos on his platform.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to January 2022, did you know who Pat King was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how were you first introduced to him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via the Zoom call on the 13th, I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And maybe I'll ask this at this point, prior to the January 13th Facebook livestream, had you participated in any calls or meetings with Mr. Bauder or Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe so. There might have been one in there earlier. I don't recall one personally.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall how you were introduced to Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't, sorry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you first came to understand that Mr. King was promoting the convoy, what did you come to learn about him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just another helping hand, another person with a large following that could -- that would help.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to learn anything about his background prior to January 2022?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not until -- no. Not until probably two days into the convoy itself.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were meeting Mr. King and Mr. Bauder and Ms. Belton, did you ask any of them about their backgrounds and why they were participating in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes. I understand Patrick King had children that were unvaccinated, I believe, and Brigitte was the fact that she was going to lose her job on the 15th of January.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At that point in time, did you have any questions yourself about who am I getting -- who am I organizing with and who are these people who are going to assist me in this?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think I was just so excited and so overwhelmed right from the day one. I don't think I really had time. It was a very busy time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that many people stated goal in terms of the convoy was to end COVID- 19 mandates; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of anyone who participated in the early organization who had a different goal than that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the convoy began travelling to Ottawa and then after it arrived in Ottawa, do you believe there were people who participated who wanted something more than to end COVID-19 mandates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you describe why you -- the basis of that belief?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was different organizations that came and went. For the most part, we stayed as a close group, Tamara and myself, Brigitte. The core group of actual truckers stayed together. Organizations kind of came in, tried to set camp up and we either found a way to keep it under control or keep in the -- it was a power struggle a lot of the time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just -- can you provide some more details about that power struggle, what organizations, what they were trying to do and what you did in response?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we had a little bit of conflict between Canada Unity, that was one, not necessarily conflict, but Taking Back our Freedoms was involved there. No conflict, but the war vets joined us. They were beside us the entire time. We had retired police officers, OPP.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Canada Unity, that's Mr. Bauder's organization; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to me what the conflict was with Canada Unity?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Power control. Simple.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was Canada Unity doing that you didn't agree with?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't like the MOU, I believe, even though I still have yet to read it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at some point, I take it you came to understand what Canada Unity was trying to achieve with the MOU; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I still believe that they were after the same things we were. I believe that maybe it was more mask mandates, more COVID restrictions in general.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated that the conflict with Canada Unity was about the MOU and I'm just trying to understand what about the MOU had -- gave rise to conflict?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Improperly written MOU. According to the people that I spoke to about it, it wasn't something on our agenda. It wasn't something we were pushing for. It had nothing to do with the reason why we actually came to Ottawa.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who did you speak to about the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ms. Lich.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did she tell you about the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had the same opinion.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But I -- what did she tell you about what was in the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't speak for what Tamara said. I'm not sure if she's read it or not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She wasn't ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- did you have any concerns that the MOU advocated or provided for an undemocratic change of power in Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard rumours about it being that way. I heard rumours on both sides that it could be interpreted that way and then it couldn't be interpreted that way. It was kind of a mixed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you take any steps to figure out what exactly Mr. Bauder was trying to achieve with the MOU?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not necessarily. We -- I remember calling on Mr. Bauder, having him renounce the MOU partial the way through the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall roughly when that occurred?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what led you to ultimately make a phone call to Mr. Bauder and ask him to renounce it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was Tamara that made the call. Just too much -- there was too much highlight in it. There was too much spotlight in this document that we didn't have anything to do with.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say too much highlight and too much spotlight, are you talking about -- I think you characterized it as the rumours that it called for something undemocratic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What happened after, to your understanding, Ms. Lich called Mr. Bauder and asked him to rescind it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was rescind [sic]. I believe they removed it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you continue working with Mr. Bauder throughout the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
James was around. Not necessarily with him. He was around. We seen each other from time to time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Another group you mentioned in terms of their being -- and maybe this wasn't your words, but I understand a power struggle, is that fair, among groups?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Another group you mentioned was Taking Back our Freedoms?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was Taking Back our Freedoms?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know names. I know Roy and James were the ones that came out. They tried to help us out, create structure inside the meetings and the day- to-day planning.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what Taking Back our Freedoms' goals were with respect to the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To this day, I do not. I believe mandate freedom, government gone too far.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I think you described there was a level of friction with them; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From times, yeah, there was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is there -- did you take any steps -- when you had this group that there was some friction or conflict with, did you take any steps to figure out what their goals or what they were trying to do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn't personally part of those. I found my role outside walking the streets a lot. So the inner meetings, I tended to skip out on quite a bit.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken already a little bit about Ms. Lich, who I -- as I understand it, your recollection is that she was likely involved around the time of the January 13th livestream, she just did not participate; did I have that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did Ms. Lich become involved in the Freedom Convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ms. Lich called me on my cell phone, I believe, like I said, somewhere before the 10th of January, and told me she had a little bit of experience in the department of protesting and convoy. She was part of the 2019 United We Roll Tour. We needed help and I acknowledged that. It was just a phone call out of the blue. Tamara got my phone number and the friendship and continued.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you ever find out how Ms. Lich got your phone number?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She said the name before. I don't remember what the name was. She -- a friend of a friend had my contact.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned that Ms. Lich had participated in the 2019 United We Roll convoy.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich phoned you, did you know what that was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you explain to the Commission what the 2019 United We Roll convoy was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oil and gas. I believe they came from Alberta to Ottawa protesting pipeline shutdowns or pipeline building, one of the two.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Ms. Lich, it was your understanding, was involved in that convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She was involved with some of the…
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you understand that Mr. King was also involved in that conversation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Afterwards.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about Mr. Bauder?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know about James.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich called you, had you heard of Tamara Lich before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I had not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you come to know about Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She’s a mother, she’s a grandmother; she’s a regular Albertan, good hearted, strong person.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you become aware, in your early conversations with Ms. Lich that she had been -- participated in the Wexit Movement in Alberta and been involved in the Maverick Party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I realized -- I was told about that in or out to Ottawa.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is it Ms. Lich who told you that, or did someone else tell you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it was Ms. Lich, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns that, in participating in the convoys, Ms. Lich would be pursuing goals other than mass mandates and maybe -- pursuing political goals of either the Wexit Movement or the Maverick Party?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was not my -- no, I didn’t feel that at all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that something you discussed with Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I discussed it, but it wasn’t really an issue. We never discussed anything in detail. It was noted that she was part of that in the past. I believe she wasn’t -- I mean, I don’t think she was -- or she is now. She was, and it was never an issue after that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We expect that there may be evidence that, you know, whether it be Ms. Lich or other people who became involved in the convoy organization, that there was an attempt to use the convoy as an opportunity to pursue political goals that weren’t just about ending the COVID-19 mandates, including political goals that may exist for -- within the Maverick Party or within the Wexit Movement; is that a concern that you have now, looking back?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. It was never brought to my attention that they were a player in this situation. And that wasn’t the reason why we came to Ottawa; I would have fought that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would you have fought that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That wasn’t the reason why we came to Ottawa. We came to Ottawa for mass -- or for, sorry, for border mandates.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Now I’m going to ask you some questions about the process of having trucks begin in British Columbia and drive across Canada and then arrive in Ottawa. First question: Do you have a sense of how many trucks participated in the convoy that you had organized with Mr. Bauder, Mr. King, Ms. Belton, Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The tricky part was trying to get a solid number. There would be a certain amount of trucks, cars, buses, campers, that would come into the convoy for a short period of time, let’s say from Regina to Winnipeg, just to take part in it and would exit off, and at that same time more people would come in from Winnipeg to go to Kenora. I know for a fact some people left with their children in a semi from Saskatchewan planning on going to Regina and went home three weeks later. We ranged anywhere from 500 to 2,500 vehicles, is what I was told. Looking in the mirrors it was incredible to see the lights behind you and the long lines. And watching the videos, it was approximately 25 kilometres long at some times.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever expect that level of participation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not in my wildest dreams.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction when you saw the level of participation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, there was a lot of tears.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you expand on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Emotions, we’re -- the things that we seen out the windshield of the truck as we crossed the Prairies, and in Ontario, overwhelming support; people standing on the side of the highways, people lining overpasses. We were often late by around two hours; we were never really on schedule. And people stood in frigid temperatures, minus 20 to minus 30, just to get a chance to see us come through.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Could you explain to the Commission how the convoy organization was able to coordinate that movement of trucks to come to Ottawa; how did people know when they -- where they were supposed to be, where the convoy was, what was going to happen to them when they joined the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had code of ethics, we had rules to follow, we had speeds to endure, we had constant communication on the -- either VHF FM radios or CB radios; cellphone interaction with other people too. Constant communication. Safety was number one priority. When you’re leading that many vehicles of the -- error was what could have been at any minute. So we managed to successfully make it from the West to Ottawa without a single issue, to my knowledge.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During that travel who was primarily responsible for all of that coordination you’re talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was at the lead of the pack. We had two escort pilot trucks leading us. Patrick King was in his motorhome halfway back looking after the back pack. It was just -- it was constant communication on the radio; constantly upping our speeds, lowering our speeds, trying to keep the convoy at a steady pace together. If I was going too fast, people would start to lag and there would be a distance. We would have to then slow down and catch everybody up.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there any point on the journey to Ottawa where you were concerned that the convoy, you know, might not make it, or something may interfere in the trucks arriving?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, everything was well orchestrated. We had police communication right from -- my role began from Swift Current to Medicine Hat, Alberta, where I picked up Ms. Lich and joined the West convoy, and that was where my part started. We were in communication with -- the first police force would have been Medicine Hat. We were in contact with Swift Current, Regina, Moosejaw, all the way across the country for -- for police escorts. If there was a traffic light, we actually called for traffic control at those intersections so we could proceed through the intersections safely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it’s the Commission’s understanding, based on some of the documents that your counsel has produced, that people were in contact with the police on a daily basis.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you one of those people?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Again, based on the documents the Commission’s received, we also understand that when the convoy arrived in Ontario, that an OPP escort was there to meet the convoy; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just provide some more explanation about that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know his last name, his name was Marty, he met us at the West Hawk scale which is the scale that borders Ontario and Manitoba. He met us there; he jumped out in front and led us. I believe Marty follow -- or led us, I believe, to Thunder Bay’ish area where then he got us in Kenora, he led us downtown Kenora to the rec centre parking lot where we were -- where we staged for the evening. We had a funny story -- not a funny story, but coming into Headingly, Manitoba, the Hutterite communities from around the Winnipeg area came into Headingly with food trailers. They had hot food, burgers, everything you could think of. RCMP had called me and said the amount of people in the Headingly area was too great; it was a huge risk to safety to get in and out of the parking lot for the truck stop. So we had to abandon the plan to stop. So we carried on around Winnipeg, and three Hutterite vehicles with trailers followed us to Kenora and fed us in the parking lot at the rec centre that night. It was cold as can be and they had the barbeques out and the slow cookers; it was quite amazing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you get into Ontario, I assume the daily contact with the police continued.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did that include daily contact with both the OPP and the OPS, or would -- can you just explain what police services you were...
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Contact was made with, I believe her name was Isabelle, from OPS. Isabelle was in constant contact with, I believe Chris Garrah of Adopt a trucker, and things were planned on our arrival.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you in contact with Isabelle or anyone from the Ottawa Police Service?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I spoke with Isabelle a few times on the phone. I’ve met her once on the ground here. I didn’t have a lot of logistics with Isabelle, that was already being looked after.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you speak with Isabelle prior to the convoy’s arrival in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I did. I made contact with Isabelle but I’m not sure exactly when. There was a phone call made to say, “I’m Chris, here’s my contact.”
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were speaking with either the OPP or the OPS -- and I’m talking about you personally -- what were you telling them about the convoy’s plans when they arrived in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Exactly what it was. We were there to protest border mandates, and our main priority was safety and working with law enforcement, whatever it took.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall having any discussions with any police officers about how long the protest might last?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think the discussion started after the first weekend with OPS, I believe, and we had one -- a couple of OPP officers in constant contact too, I know his name was Andrew.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So prior to that -- prior to that point you’ve referenced, so after the first weekend did you discuss the potential length of the protest with any police officials?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At what point did you realize that the protest may continue for an extended period of time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I ever really thought much into it. Everything moved so fast when we arrived.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Prior to arriving in Ottawa, had you personally turned your mind to how long you would stay?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, my business would suffer the longer I was away from it. So that in the back of my mind -- I really didn’t know. It was the movement of its own and it continued to grow, and you mentally had to try and keep up with it, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your discussions with either the OPP or the OPS as the convoy was approaching Ottawa, did any of the police services give you direction on where you could park the trucks once you arrived in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Interesting story: All the way to Ottawa, my understanding via people in the convoy, Canada Unity, was that we had two major staging areas; one was Major Hill Park, and the other one was Confederate Park. I believe Confederate. And that was -- to my understanding, that’s where we were allowed to park and protest peacefully.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that where you ultimately parked?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did -- where did -- I understand that you parked your truck on Wellington Street; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had a police escort down Sir John A. Macdonald off the 417. My understanding -- I didn’t know this till afterwards -- police blocked the convoy after myself and another tractor-trailer went through. They shut the convoy down around the War Museum on Sir John A. Macdonald. They then led myself and Tamara and the pilot trucks. We made it to roughly the Supreme Court on Wellington, and that was as far as we could go. There was a ton of vehicles had come in the night before, apparently, wanting to be there for the arrival. So there had already been tractor-trailers lined up in front of Parliament down to, approximately, the Supreme Court.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that surprise you to see that there was already large commercial vehicles?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did that surprise you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was unaware of it. My understanding was we were going to come in, the police were going to escort us right to the two parks. We would park safely out of the way, and it would be fine.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone from any police service ever explain to you what had changed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe not, no. I don’t know if I ever asked that question.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone else ever explain to you what had led to the park -- the vehicles being parked in the downtown core as opposed to the parks you identified?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, we caught them off guard; we overwhelmed them right off the bat. With the trucks coming in the night before that we were unaware of, our main convoy, as far as I know, had nothing to do with those prior arrivals, so...
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you since learned who was the early arrivals?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were all semi operators. I knew a couple from my home province. They were in the area, apparently. They weren’t part of the convoy, but they were in the area, and they took part in the protest.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I asked you this and I think you’ve confirmed it, but you parked your vehicle on Wellington Street; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After you parked there, at any point in time up until, we’ll say, February 14th, were you given any indication by any police services that you shouldn’t be parked on Wellington and you’d need to move?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that come as a surprise to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know if I really had time to think if it was a surprise, it was so fast-paced.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard evidence from several police witnesses who have been asked questions essentially about whether more could have been done to limit or control the size and scope of the protest in Ottawa in the early days. I’ve heard your answers but I’m just going to ask you one more time; was the police response to the convoy what you were expecting or anticipating when you arrived?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s a hard question to answer. I believe they did the best they could. The scope of the amount of vehicles that came in, I don’t know how things went so -- went so wrong when we first arrived. We were -- they did what they could. They did the best we could. We were all -- 90 percent of the trucks were stuck out on Sir John A. Macdonald, I believe, with -- pretty much abandoned. Nobody knew where to go, nobody had direction.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In retrospect, do you think it would have been better had the trucks parked where they were initially designated to park?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, absolutely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why is that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, if the staging areas we were allowed to take, Major Hills Park and Confederate Park, I understand now that that was never part of the deal, apparently. Although, I don’t know; that was all I was told.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would have that been better?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We would have been off the main streets. Occupying or parking all over the city was never part of why we came.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I’ve just been handed a note to suggest that both you and I are speaking a little quickly for the interpreters.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I will try to slow down and I’ll ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I apologize.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- ask you also to try to slow down. No, that’s okay. We’re both to blame so it’s okay. So I’m now going to ask you, and we’ve already touched on it a little bit but about what happened with the people who were originally involved in organizing the convoy. We’ve spoken about Mr. Bauder already but I’m going to now ask you about Pat King. And as I understand it, that in or around January 22nd, 24th, in or around that time period, you and Ms. Lich began having discussions about concerns relating to Mr. King. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain to me the nature of those discussions and what the concerns were?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the first episode was a CBC article, came out of some past prior social media posts that Pat had been a part of, and we met with Pat, discussed our concerns. I believe we smoothed the waters over, and we carried on at that point.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So do you recall what concerns -- what had been reported in that CBC article that caused you concern?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t really -- I never read the article. There was something about something Pat said years ago. According to Pat, the article was edited or what he said was edited. I can’t confirm or deny that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m just going to pull up a document; it’s HRF00001221, and we’ll go to page 2. And while this document comes up, Mr. Barber, this is a document that has been provided by the convoy organizers’ group. It’s a timeline of events that has been provided. So this was provided to us by your counsel. And if we could go to January 24th at the bottom of page 2. And would it be possible to -- yeah, thank you, Mr. Clerk. So you can read the entry that says, “Concerns re Pat King”; do you see them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So this here says: “Tamara and Chris discussed concerns about Pat king after viewing a tweet with a video making reference to bullets.” Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you -- is this conversation being described here the same conversation we were just talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Does this refresh your memory at all about what the concerns were?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This -- the article was made to sound like bullets would be flying, apparently. According to Mr. King, when we confronted him on it he stated that the article was taken out of context, edited to make him sound like he was planning violence, where I believe his -- what he was trying to convey in that article was different than what was portrayed by the media.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission has seen reports that at some point in time, Mr. King made a comment along the lines of, “This is going to end in bullets”; do you know if that’s what was being discussed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was -- according to what I was told, that was a previous post, two years prior, something to do with an Indigenous standoff.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And during this conversation were you also aware that the media was reporting on a video that -- in which Mr. King had made a suggestion that at some point, Justin Trudeau may catch a bullet one day; were you aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I recall something about that, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember if that was something you knew about during this discussion, or after this discussion did you learn more about what Mr. King had posted?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it might have been after.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it says in here in the second sentence: “Chris agreed perhaps Pat should be sent home but there was concern about the trucks Pat brought with him." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was the concern about the trucks?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly division inside the convoy Pat brought a certain following with. I don't remember the extent of anything after that. We discussed sending him home, and obviously he didn't.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the concern that if Mr. King was sent home or asked to not participate that his supporters would also stop participating?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would have been a good guess, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can continue on, the next sentence talks about a -- it says: "Talked to Pat about the Tweet on the roadside..." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was that the conversation you had already described to us?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was -- were you a part of that conversation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then it says, "Following this, a Captains meeting was held in Kenora [and] at the end of the day where everyone expressed concern about Pat King's involvement."
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Yes, thank you. "The decision was made that someone would talk to Pat within the coming days and request that he not attend in Ottawa." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'm going to ask you a question about this -- these two sentences, but before I do that, can you just explain what a captains meeting is?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had road captains involved in -- approximately two road captains per province to organise the trucks. Those were the people that the people from that province could go to with concerns or issues. So we had a number of road captains within the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it sounds in here like after your initial conversation with Mr. King that concerns continued to be raised by other members of the organisation; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know if someone ultimately spoke with Mr. King and asked him not to attend in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly. I wasn't involved in that conversation.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point did you hear from Ms. Lich or anyone else about whether that conversation had occurred?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my recollection, I don't.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King continued on to Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, he did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of any resolution having been reached between the people who had concerns and Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe whatever happened it worked itself out to the point where Pat stayed with the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you personally concerned about what Mr. King had said previously on social media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe it was a concern. He explained to me that it was taken out of context, and then edited to make him sound worse than it was. I took him for his word on it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you accepted the explanation at the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you today still believe that -- do you still accept that explanation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe Pat had all the right reasons and a good heart.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to pull up another document. This is COM00000902. And while we're waiting for the document to come up, Mr. Barber, this is a news article. And we can go to page 3 of the document. This is a news article, and it reports on text messages between yourself and Ms. Lich. And as I understand it, and we will get to this later, when you were arrested the police seized your phone and you no longer have access to the messages on your phone. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that we expect to hear from Ms. Lich that she also no longer has access to her text messages. You don't need to comment on that, we can ask Ms. Lich about it. But I'm showing you this news article, and as we go through if there's anything in the article that you think is not accurate, and I appreciate you don't have your phone with you anymore, you can let me know; okay? So if we go down, it says, "On Jan. 22, Lich told Barber they need to have 'a very frank discussion' with King, raising concerns about past allegations [with] him. Despite these concerns, Lich also said he was needed by the movement — in [an] apparent contrast to later statements in which the convoy tried to distance itself from King. 'We need him and I don't care about his past but it only takes one,' she said. 'We have to control his rhetoric. Not even threatening to throw snowballs at the parliament (sic).'" Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you remember if this is something that Ms. Lich text messaged you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My phone was very busy. I'm assuming it's here, so it had to be.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No reason to ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- say this was not a message she sent you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich said that the movement needed Mr. King, do you know what she meant by that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't. I'm not sure.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree that the movement needed Mr. King?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The best thing about the movement was it was inclusive to everyone regardless of any beliefs, I guess. Everyone had a place, everybody had a spot. It was just managing how.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it from your answers that, I just want to make sure that I'm fair here, is that you, from what you had learned about what Mr. King had maybe said in the past, the content of those statements didn't concern you because of the explanation Mr. King provided. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess. Pat and I had a power struggle between each other, that was pretty evident right from day one. It was just -- it was a power struggle back and forth over control. It wasn't anything that couldn't have been managed.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns, separate and apart from your own views about what Mr. King may or may not have said, did you have any concern about the public image of having Mr. King associated with the Freedom Convoy movement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess there would've been some concerns at times, I guess. The bad media posts and releases on a regular basis definitely caused some concern.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just explain what you mean by, did you say the ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The media.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And what was concerning you about the media's coverage?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They attacked him on a regular basis I believe.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you think those attacks were fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't know. I didn't -- like I said, I didn't know Pat previous to the convoy. I met him on the 13th for the first time, and things were so busy after that it was hard to keep your head around all the different moving parts.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than being busy, is there any reason you didn't do more to look into the people who were associated with your convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My primary goal was to get those trucks to Ottawa safely. So phone conversations and that were hard to have. Everything that we did was logistics. It was myself on the mic, on the CB mic or the FM radio mic, all day long making sure the trucks were safe. I kind of left that up to other people in the organisation.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You say -- this media report says that you texted to Ms. Lich: "'I know he's had issues. I've got skeletons in the closet to (sic)...'" Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall texting that to Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What were the skeletons in your closet?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I've been -- like I've said before, I've been an internet troll for many years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At this point in time, was there something in -- was there anything in particular that concerned you about what you had done on the internet?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Nothing that was related to the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about things that were unrelated to the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What concerned you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I used to post nasty, distasteful memes, be it share memes or just posting online in a negative way.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission's understanding that some members of the media identified certain Facebook posts that you had made and had reported on them or tweeted about them. Is that something you were aware of at the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, they'd been circulated for quite sometime.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And these include Facebook posts that contained racist and anti Muslim comments. Is that a fair characterisation?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I expect you may be asked questions about those by some of the parties, and I wanted to give you an opportunity now, if you wanted it, to speak to some of the racist or anti Muslim things you posted.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can honestly say that if anybody learned anything or grew more during the convoy it was me. I was a different person nine months ago, whatever it was, ten months ago. Coming out here and seeing the amount of love and the people of all different colours, all different race, everything, it was such a diverse crowd of people here. There was -- so there was so many tears, there was so many hugs, there was so much laughter, there was so much -- it was -- it changed a person, it changed me.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you change?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It just -- it humbled me, I guess. It made me realise that a lot of those stuff that I used to post on the internet before was very distasteful, and there's a better way to do it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things that the media reported on during the convoy was that you had a Confederate flag in your shop in Swift Current; do you know what I'm talking about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you posted at least one or two Tik Toks addressing that issue; do you recall?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one of those Tik Toks you said that the Confederate flag was -- you explained that you -- I believe you'd purchased it in the United States; do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then you described it as a piece of cloth and get over yourself.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that a sentiment you continue to have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe there's two different contexts to look at the Confederate flag. I've got a good friend that lives outside of Atlanta, Georgia. She's an African American lady. I had a in-depth conversation with her many times on this occasion. She's explained it to me quite well. She said the way the -- the two different contexts, how you look at the flag, was the area of the General Lee and the Dukes of Hazard via, like, Kid Rock, Lynyrd Skynyrd music. When we grew up in our hometown, we had -- we called it a rebel flag or a dixie flag. We didn't really call it a Confederate flag. It was on license plates. It was on back windows. It was everywhere. And at that time, it was more accepted apparently. So in my travels in the deep south years ago, I'd come across a flag store. I seen the dixie flag there. I purchased it. I hung it up on the wall in my shop not thinking anything of it. My African American lady friend in Georgia explained to me that if you wore that flag over your shoulders to a Confederate battlefield, I would probably call you a lot of names. But she said, being the way you're displaying it now and the fact that you loved your childhood watching the Dukes of Hazard and seeing that flag on the roof of the General Lee, it's a different context.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have the flag in your shop?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What I did with the flags in the shop was I zip tied them. So they were hanging on the wall of the shop. I went up on a ladder and I zip tied them together. They're still there, but they're not displayed in the correct manner, out of respect for ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you talk about how you've changed, is that an example of something you're doing different?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You've spoken about Mr. King a bit. Once you arrived in Ottawa, did you -- and did you continue to work with Mr. Bauder in terms of the protest activity that was going on in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I hardly seen James the time I was here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken a bit about Ms. Belton. Once you arrived in Ottawa, what was Ms. Belton's role in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Same as myself. She was more centralized around the hotel area where we had our daily meetings, making sure things were looked after. My job morphed into more of a outside walking the streets, making sure the trucks were well looked after, making sure the concerns were well, working with the law enforcement on a day-to-day basis, making sure that we had emergency lanes open wherever the trucks were parked. We had a couple different hot spots -- not hot spots, but places in the city that we had -- we'd lost -- we couldn't get the emergency lanes open, and they weren't -- looking back now, they weren't the trucks that came with us from the west. The one issue was Rideau and Sussex. We spent many days down trying to get an emergency lane open, with law enforcement, OPP and OPS.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we're going to have some questions about Rideau Sussex in a moment. We expect that Ms. Belton may indicate that there's been a falling out between you and her. Is that true?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the nature of that falling out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just difference of opinions.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What are the different opinions?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't even -- just difference of opinion, different direction. I just chose to stay on a path. My criminal charges have left me to be a lot more silent. I can't speak with, like, what I used to be able to speak about the convoy. I'd rather remain silent. So I've - - instead of fighting with anybody there, I've said my peace and went my different ways.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up a video, HRF146? And, again, I'll give you some context while it comes up. So this is one of your Tik Toks -- just a moment. And we're going to watch it in its entirety and then I'll have some questions flowing from it.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. (VIDEO PLAYED)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Clerk. You can pull that down. So I have a few questions arising out of that video. One of the things you say early on is that you want a peaceful protest. And the Commission has seen many instances, and we don't have the time to take you to them all, of where you insist on the protest being peaceful and to the extent there's any sort of suggestion of violence you immediately step in and say this needs to be peaceful. Why was that important to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had the public on our support. That was -- and I'll apologise for the language there, Commissioner. That was another thing that I've worked on in the last number of months. Look at ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've heard worse. I've heard worse. Don't worry.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's good. You can take the trucker out of the truck but you -- that was, yeah, most important because we had -- the world was watching us. We had -- there was so many people and safety was utmost. And we were told leave by -- the lawyers flew out, I believe it was the end of the month, the first part of February, something like that, and we were told by the lawyers on the daily basis that we were legitimate protest. We were allowed to be there. We were doing the right things. And the last thing I wanted to do was wreck that for the people that we were trying to represent. And there was a ton of support all across -- all over the world really.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And to put that video into a bit of context, you say that this is a message for the convoy that's coming next week, so -- or arriving. And so we understand that that video is taken probably some time in the week of January 23rd; does that sound right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that would have been before you had -- the lawyers had gotten involved and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- you're beginning to get direction from them; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at that point in time when you're emphasizing the importance of a peaceful protest, did you have a concern that the people who were participating in the convoy might not be peaceful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll give you a little example of truck drivers. They're like herding cats. They -- you've got every different style of driver, and I've always said, you put 200 truck drivers in a room and somebody's going to get a black eye and a broken nose. But -- and knowing that going into it, I was worried about that because of the differences of opinion with all truck drivers. I can honestly say that that was something that surprised me. There was none of that. The drivers were well -- and in my -- what I seen, they were extremely well behaved. They listened to the rules of the road. I didn't have a single incident with, to my recollection, with that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So they listened to the rules of the road, I assume you mean on the way to Ottawa; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Once you got into Ottawa, was your observation that the protest was peaceful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was loud, but it was peaceful.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see any acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we'll get to the noise in a moment.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In another Tik Tok video you posted, and I'm -- and this would have been during the protest in Ottawa, you say that the last thing we need is a January 6th style insurrection, and that was one of your biggest concerns. Do you recall saying that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why was that one of your biggest concerns?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe the federal government was backed into a corner, not wanting to speak to us. And I personally believe that that was the only way, I guess, out of it for them, to demonize us to the point where they could say insurrection when that wasn't the case. And so I pushed that message constantly, daily, peace, love, community. Like I said, it changed with me as a person listening to myself daily saying that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were saying that, was -- what sort of activity were you contemplating that might give rise, either correctly or incorrectly, to the impression that this was going to be some form of insurrection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The police build-up. We had daily meetings with police, whether it be OPP or OPS, and everything was positive, but it seemed like the police presence built on a daily basis.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there anything that other protestors were doing that were concerning you? And I’m not just talking about protestors within your group. I’m talking about of all the people who were in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I seen, no. The trucks that I looked after on a day-to-day basis were all -- were excited. They were excited. We were two years outside of a -- of lockdowns and mandates and people got to live again. And we seen that on a daily basis.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So another thing you mentioned in the video that we showed was that there was rules of the convoy. You talked about clearing the way for emergency vehicles and that law enforcement need to be respected. Was there any other rules of the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Basically, that was it. Yes, there was a code of -- I don’t remember if we actually did a code of conduct up or not or we just -- mornings we had tailgate safety meetings with the drivers to make sure that everything was well. There was constant communication with everything. I had no concerns with the trucks. The trucks were always well behaved and, like I said, law enforcement was always open and honest. We did -- we worked really well with every law enforcement that I ever spoke to.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But at the same time, you recognize that it was important to have rules and try as an organizer to at least have -- try to have some sort of order over the people that were in Ottawa. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As an organizer, did you believe that you had responsibility for the conduct of the protestors in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I took it upon myself to do everything in my power to make sure that the drivers were notified if things weren’t right. I can’t say it was my responsibility. I don’t -- I can’t act on behalf of someone else. But I definitely did what I could to try and make sure things were done properly.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what motivated you to do that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just the sheer size of it and the support. We had support, like I said, all over the country, all over the world, and there was so many people watching. It was -- it was exciting to see the general public -- and one of the biggest things for me it was exciting to see the young kids get back involved with trucks, that were excited for the horn honk, the -- standing on the side of the highway. Kids wanted to be truck drivers again, and I haven’t seen that since I was a child.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So from what I’m hearing, and I want you to correct me if I’m wrong, is that you liked what you were seeing, you felt it was positive and you wanted to try to keep that atmosphere because you wanted to continue the positive experience. Is that a fair sort of summary? Perhaps not the most articulate.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were in Ottawa, what was your views on the police’s responsibilities with respect to peaceful protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They always -- they seemed to respect. I dealt with quite a few on a daily basis, and I can’t -- I can’t say I had a harsh conversation or anything with any of them. Maybe -- police were always respectful. I would walk up to random officers standing on the side of the -- of the street and just -- or sitting in a police car patrolling the barricade and say, “Everything okay? Have you seen anything that was a concern?”. And I never once -- once got a reaction bad.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video we showed, you mention that the “public is on our side and when we start acting like assholes, we lost that”.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did it mean to you to be “acting like an asshole”?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Disrespectful. Not -- not playing by the code of conduct or the rules.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you give me an example of something that you believed was -- would be disrespectful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Being disruptive, I guess. Like I said, we tried on a daily basis to make sure everybody was looked after. So the police had free lanes through, through all. Ambulances had free lanes. I know it was pretty tricky. We worked diligently on it. I lost about 20 pounds in the matter of three weeks with the amount of walking I did working with law enforcement. I didn't -- I had a vehicle here, but it was hard to get around with a vehicle, so a lot of times it was walking. And it was frigid. It was 20 to 30 below. I had two t-shirts on, two hoodies on and long underwear and three pairs of socks at times.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I won’t ask you if you put the weight back on, so -- because I wouldn’t want anyone asking me that question. You say “acting like an asshole” included conduct that was disrespectful or disruptive. Did you see anything that was disrespectful or disruptive when you were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Personally I didn’t, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when I say that, I appreciate that not everyone in Ottawa was necessarily someone who had come with your group or who might listen to you. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s fair.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So with that in mind, at any point did you see anything in Ottawa that, you know, that might not be the person who came with you but you wished they weren’t doing it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never seen -- like I said, I never seen anything that really concerned me. If somebody was there that wasn’t part of the original group that I brought in, I would try really hard to negotiate with them or work with them to open that lane if they were parked in a spot that wasn’t where it should have been. Sometimes it was successful, sometimes it wasn’t. I really struggled a lot with, like I said before, when it comes to all truckers are different. That dynamic really played in certain parts of the city where ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your view on how the protest was portrayed in the media?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a negative light from day one. They -- they -- yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What do you think was being missed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Everything. I had numerous occasions where people came up to me and said they had to come down and see it for themselves because the media wasn’t portraying it properly. And it was a different thing when they got here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard and received -- heard evidence and received written evidence from various residents and municipal officials several complaints about the protestors’ conduct. I expect you’ll be familiar with them, but some of the things that the Commission has heard is that there was excessive noise due to air horns. There was harassment and intimidating behaviour, including people yelling racist or homophobic slurs. And that there was just a general disorder and unsafe conditions, including open fires, propane tanks near buildings and cars. Is this -- is this sort of evidence or concerns, are you familiar with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can honestly say I never encountered a single episode of that. Obviously there was fires for people trying to stay warm. There was -- there was propane tanks for heating things no different than -- I have a propane tank on my porch with a -- with a portable barbecue, so as long as it was looked after safely, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your mind, who was responsible for making sure that -- taking with the propane tanks or other -- or other flammables, who was responsible for making sure the protest was safe? Not that anyone was going to do anything intentional with a propane tank, but something bad could happen and -- and people could get hurt. Who was responsible for avoiding that outcome?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We left things up to the road captains. Like I said, there was usually two road captains per province (sic), but that morphed into usually a couple road captains per block, and we would hold -- not myself personally. I stayed out of most of those meetings, but the people would hold meetings every day to go over certain things and issues and safety concerns.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to now ask you about the horn honking. The Commission has heard evidence and I’m sure you’re aware that at different times in the protest there was a lot of horn honking. I assume you’ll agree with me about that.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consider the horn honking to be a form of peaceful protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I considered the horn honking to be a form of excitement more than peaceful protest. I’ll be the first to admit the horns annoyed me. I did everything in my power to try and get the horns to stop. I put out multiple videos on a regular basis saying stop, especially after the Court order came in on, I believe -- whatever date that was, the 7th.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So let’s pause there for a moment. The horns bothered you and prior to the Court order, which was an injunction to stop the horn honking, what steps did you take to limit the horns prior to the Court order?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Speaking to the drivers. It was getting everyone orientated, trying to get them situated in a place where they were safe and their needs could be met, I guess, seeing as our entry was –- was so messed up. I'll use the words. It was organized chaos, unorganized chaos. There was trucks everywhere. There was vehicles everywhere. The only thing I could do was put my videos out stating, you know, like, we're not here to disrupt residents of Ottawa. They didn't ask for this. It was -- the federal government is why we came and did what we could.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to show you a video and then a post from your Facebook, so we'll start with the video. This is HRF192. And again, this is one of your Tik Toks.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Then if we could pull up COM00000889?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you get an idea of what kind of guy I am on social media by that?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'll -- while we pull that up, would that be an example of you being a troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that's me being a funny guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
All right. So now I'm showing you -- if we could zoom out, so we can see this? We understand this to be a Facebook post from -- that you made on February 12th, 2022. To assist, I believe that is the character Buffalo Bill from the movie Silence of the Lambs.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And this is a joke about how -- that if the government doesn't get rid of the mandates, the horns are going to come back. Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then I'm going to show you one other Facebook post. That's COM00000888. And so in this one, this appears that you're sharing on February 13th a photo. I would guess this would be described as a meme of a boy blowing a bugle or a trumpet, being symbolized as the rest of Canada and then the Ottawa plugging their ears; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And first I'll ask you, are these two posts that you made on Facebook?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's my name. Like I said, things were so busy, I'm assuming I -- I shared that one, obviously. I would have probably shared the first one too. It was scrolling Facebook and seen it and just hit the share button. That was probably more, like, found it humorous at the time, I guess.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you look at the video we showed in these two Facebook posts, could you see why someone would question your sincerity when you say that you did everything in your power to stop the horns?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what would you -- again, you have an opportunity to speak to that. Is there anything you'd like to say?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't take back what I posted. I guess it was the excitement of the day on social media, flipping through social media, and seeing the post, and it's a click of a button to share it and put it out. Seeing it now, I'd say it's distasteful.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We can take that down. Briefly, I'm going to ask you some questions about efforts to move trucks onto Wellington Street, and I understand there was a few different attempts, and we're going to hear more evidence about it this week, but I have some questions for you. So we've heard the evidence that on February 14th after an agreement was reached with the mayor, you were involved in moving 4 [sic] large trucks up to Wellington Street; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was more than four, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I said 40. I may not have been clear.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Forty (40), yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, sure.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And prior to that, we understand that the Freedom Convoy group had made an effort to have the trucks on the Rideau and Sussex intersection moved onto Wellington Street; do I have that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We made an attempt, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you tell me what happened with that attempt?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was successful with one truck. There was -- if there's -- there was a little -- it was a tractor trailer. He was parked near right by the war memorial. I remember the story on the -- he was parked sideways across the compete intersection. And law enforcement had tried to get him to straighten his truck out for quite some time and failed at it miserably. I remember it was easy. I walked over to the truck. I stepped up on the running board and I said, "Hey, Buddy, you're in the way really bad and you're causing us some grief. Could you just back it up against the curb, please, and you'll save us all a lot of trouble?" And he literally put the truck in gear and backed it up against the -- the OPP and the OPS officers were amazed it was that easy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the other -- were you able to move the other trucks on Rideau Sussex?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was not, no. Those were a different group there. It was harder to talk to them.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding at the time of who was in the Rideau and Sussex intersection?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember there being a language barrier. There was a lot of Quebecers in that corner, right in the Rideau Sussex corner, so that -- yeah, I didn't have much interaction. I remember being there maybe twice to try and work something out, to get some lanes open, as per OPS and OPP's asking. I wasn't successful every time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as I -- I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, in your conversations with the OPS and OPP, you were trying to get a lane open for emergency vehicles; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you made an effort with the people at Rideau Sussex. It was unsuccessful?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And other than the language barrier, was there any other reasons that that was unsuccessful to your mind?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were there, and they just refused to move. So I did what I could. I worked with law enforcement. I -- maybe it was twice Ms. Lich and I were there with OPS one day and I believe I was there by myself with OPS on a separate time. So probably twice I was there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you have -- at the time, were you familiar with the name the Farfadaas?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when the first time you heard the term Farfadaas?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
About a week ago, under a week ago.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the context of this Commission?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I understand it means leprechaun in French -- or in English, apparently. It was according to ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, we'll have a witness testifying later today who I'm sure can shed more light on the Farfadaas.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
More than me, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to now ask you some questions about the other protests that occurred outside of Ottawa in January and February 2022. While you were in Ottawa, did you have any communications or interactions with anyone who was participating in protests in Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe I was -- I don't believe so. If there was messages on my phone, they would be for people with no contact information, just phone numbers. I received so many text messages from so many different people. I don't want to say that I didn't because I may have. I never endorsed it. I never communicated openly with anybody from Windsor at all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did -- do you recall whether anyone asked you or anyone that you were working with in Ottawa for assistance with respect to the protest in Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If anybody asked me, I declined. We were never associated. We had our own -- we had enough to deal with here. We weren't worried about ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any interactions or communications with anyone participating in any of the other protests anywhere else in Canada? And I can give you examples if it helps, but I'm going to ask you generally to start.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I got text messages from some friends at Coutts. Never any -- just saying how things were going. Never any advice or never asked any questions to my recollection. They had their own thing going on there and it wasn't involved with us in the city here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were your friends at Coutts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's a couple guys that were down there. Just some local drivers that I've been friends with for years.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were they?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
One man his name is Dan Sommerville. He was off and on. He was never an active participant. He went down just to check it out and come back. There was another guy, I don't know his name. I'd have to look at my phone. I know what truck he drives. I know what he hauls.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know this individual whose name you don't recall, do you know if he was participating in the organization of the Coutts protest or if he was a participant?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think he was just a participant, yeah. I don't know the organizers at Coutts or Windsor.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communications with anyone who was protesting in Emerson or Surrey?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would imagine text messages on my phone but not people that I'm familiar with.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Jeremy MacKenzie while you were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know who Mr. MacKenzie was during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I became aware of Mr. MacKenzie during the protest. Just know that he was veteran. We did a lot of work with the veterans when we were here, although I never seen Jeremy, that I know of. I met a lot of people during, but I don't recall meeting him or seeing him, or I've never spoke with him.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you familiar with the group Diagolon during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, not -- sorry. Not during the protest. Afterwards. My knowledge of Diagolon, it's a fictional -- it's a meme. It's -- it was something that Jeremy made up to troll, online troll.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you spoken with Mr. MacKenzie since the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Coming near to the end of our time, so I just have a few more questions for you. It's our understanding that after the Emergencies Act was invoked you were one of the people who had their bank accounts frozen; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell the Commission what that meant for you and what that was like?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, my bank accounts were frozen I believe on the day I was arrested, on February 17th. My corporate accounts as well as my joint accounts were frozen for the weekend, unfrozen, I believe, the Monday. My Toronto Dominion Bank account was frozen for upwards of three-and-a-months.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did that impact you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I learned how to use cash again.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned already that you were arrested on February 17th ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How has the arrest affected your life?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They -- I guess they kind of caught us off guard. They were really professional and really good to work with, I can't say a bad thing about anyone. I was walking with my son and three other of the road captains. So if you Google my name on the arrest you'll see a photo of my grinning. My son was there, he was 18 years old at the time, and I looked over at him and seen him -- that look he had as a 6-year-old or a 7-year-old kid where, you know, the tears were welling up. He was scared. And -- so I simply just said, "Hey, Bud, you're good", and grinned like that, and they caught me on camera, of course. And everything's been good since, it's just it's changed quite a bit.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What's changed?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, the criminal charges now, and I've never had criminal charges. I've never been in trouble with the law before.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one final question for you. Is there anything that you think it's important for the Commission to hear that we haven't touched on today?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We touched all the bases. The truth is here, I have nothing to hide. As far as I know, we were doing everything within the law, according to legal counsel, and that was my main primary goals.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have the cross-examinations to go ahead. The Government of Canada I think is up first.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
This applies to all of us, I assume? The note about the translators, the reminder for the translators is still here.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW GIBBS
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Good morning.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrew Gibbs, and I'm part of the counsel team for the Government of Canada.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Gibbs.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So we've a fair bit of testimony this morning about the start of the convoy and the general organisation and the factions or divisions within the groups that preceded it. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So the spark, as I understand it, was you and Ms. Belton ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- meeting over TikTok?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you eventually organised with others to come to Ottawa to drop the border mandates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And that was your sole objective?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was my personal sole objective, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So to be clear, then, the others that eventually joined or started participating may have had other goals and objectives?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Quite possibly, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you're aware of some of those goals and objectives?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a lot going on, but yes, for the most part.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
For example, Canada Unity was seeking to sign an MOU that Commission Counsel spoke to you about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And others were seeking to I'll say "overthrow", but replace the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My understanding when it comes to the MOU, and I think that was the only thing that ever came up, was the fact that there was something in the MOU that said, and not necessarily overthrow, but hold the government accountable, apparently. I -- and like I've said before, I've never read the MOU. That was never anything that we came to Ottawa for. That was not even on the cards, and if anybody came to me stating that I would've probably told them to go home.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
I think you had mentioned you attended a Facebook Live interview?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And Pat King was hosting it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And I believe the MOU was presented during that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And do you recall Pat King saying that the objective was to tell the government who's in control?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He could've, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And to give them pink slips?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Possibly.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And a pink slip, you would understand, as removing them from their jobs? Firing them, essentially?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't speak for Mr. King, but possibly.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, as the group started joining you, I think we saw one TikTok video where you mentioned that -- this is -- and I believe your testimony as well today was that never expected this level of participation in your wildest dreams?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So many, many people joined this protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, it became a multi-purpose protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so. I stayed with my original beliefs of the border mandates. That was the one that affected me the most, that was the reason why I got involved. All the other mandates in place that I had issues were provincial mandates. So really, had no relevance here in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But some people in the group seemed to think they did.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so. Like I said, I can only speak for myself, and my primary goal was border mandates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And so during the Facebook Live, Mr. Bauder suggests that there will be a number of events that occur. And in fact, in addition to the Facebook Live, which was referenced at COM00000829, there is a separate video where you and the other organisers, Ms. Belton, Mr. Bauder, and Mr. King, are interviewed by Benita Pedersen. Do you recall that interview?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. It's in the record at COM00000838. And during that interview, and we can bring it up if you like, it again is a lengthy interview, over an hour and a half long, but it does speak to the activities or events that Mr. Bauder proposes to have. He also shares the MOU again, and suggests that one of the events will be to present that MOU to the Government of Canada or representatives thereof.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay? The last point that I would make, just with respect to that video, but I'll move on to the basic idea here, that there were, as you say, a number of factions or groups that were involved?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes? Okay. And you didn't have a vetting procedure to check who was going to be there?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We did not. This was a purely organic...
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And so as the announcements and the invitations started to come, the convoy that was planned, with Mr. Bauder's logistics, started to catch fire?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you had mentioned that all truckers are different?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, pretty much so.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it's a bit like herding cats?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if you put 200 in a room, somebody's going to get a black eye or a broken nose?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Primarily, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
How many did you bring to Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, many. Like I said, there would've been 2,500 vehicles in the West convoy. There was convoys from the East, convoys from the South, there was convoys... I don't know the numbers on how many people were here. There was a lot. On the weekends, it was very, very busy. It was very busy.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And is it fair to say that you couldn't control them all?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, I could not control them all.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Is it also not correct that you had a large flag on the back of your truck?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a -- yeah, it was a billboard sign I believe.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And what did it say?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember. It's hanging on the wall in my shop right now, but it's something about mandates I would imagine. I don't remember. If you could refresh my memory if you have it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Well, you -- I believe that -- perhaps you'll agree with me that there were many flags around town with the message "F Trudeau"?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I didn't have a -- on the back of the bunk of the truck I have a decal there that says that. I did not have a flag on my tractor that had that on it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So there was a decal on your truck with that slogan?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, a smaller decal up on the back of the bunk.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And would you agree that that became a bit of a rallying cry?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was surprised to see how many it was. Yeah, there was a lot. All the way across the country, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And were there other messages against the Liberals?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think it was just that, as far as I remember.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve seen a better rendition of it the other day. By the way, my thoughts have kind of changed on that a little bit. I seen a young kid a couple of days ago that said hi to me and he had a “Truck Trudeau” shirt on.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Same underlying message?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But probably a little more politically correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Right, but understood by ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- the crowd as being the same message.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would assume.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And encouraging children to share that message.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a child that had it, so...
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You’d mentioned to Commission Counsel that you were frustrated with the mandates.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you were -- I believe your testimony was that you were very angry.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And did this protest and convoy and general sentiment that you and Ms. Belton started, did that inspire others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it did. Of course.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
As part of your group, and this -- when I say “Your group” I’m referring specifically to the Freedom Convoy 2022; I think it’s you and Ms. Belton at one point, and Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And Mr. Bolden -- Bauder, sorry, by that point is outside of the group?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was always Canada Unity. I don’t believe he was ever part of Freedom Convoy.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And Mr. King has been kind of pushed ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- to the side a bit?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was separate, yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yeah? Okay. He still has a large following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I believe so.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I think we -- well, we heard reference to a video about social media on TikTok where Mr. King was attributed as saying that Mr. Trudeau was going to catch a bullet; you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard about it, yes. I don’t think I ever -- I’m not sure if I ever seen it or not.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Perhaps I can show it to you now. If we were to bring up, Mr. Clerk, OP00007967, and we’ll just -- I’d like to just play the first 20 seconds of it. It goes on. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Now, I believe you suggested that Mr. King had told you previously in a conversation that this was edited and taken out of context.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you will agree that it came to light during the protest.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I believe the second part of that video -- my understanding with that was that that was from a previous post, something to do with Indigenous lockdowns or Indigenous protests somewhere else in the country, where that bullet comment came from.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Right, but it was posted during the convoy.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was, yes, I believe.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And you yourself admitted, I believe, to Commission Counsel of being a bit of an internet -- or troll?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And having previously posted nasty racist and anti-Muslim content.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Regretfully so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you have a significant following now?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On the TikTok I do, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And Mr. King also has a significant following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. King, I believe, due to his conditions isn’t allowed on social media.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
At the time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the time I think he had a significant following on Facebook. I don’t think he was on TikTok.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And we saw a discussion between you and Ms. Lich referred to by Commission Counsel where you and Ms. Lich discussed the need to keep him around if possible because of his following.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So you’re aware that the Freedom Convoy group -- this would be your group -- put out daily briefings.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And these daily briefings, did you have input into them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not very often, no. My job was literally out with the trucks on a regular basis. I would come sit in at the end of the day and have conversations with other people in the group to get -- but I don’t remember being -- I remember being at the first news conference. I remember telling Ms. Lich that I didn’t want to be the one in front of the camera, but I would be the one that stood beside the one at the camera, and that was the only time I was -- I think I did a couple, but I was always sitting off to the side. My job was truck safety, truck issues; making sure everybody was looked after.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Looked after in terms of fuel and mechanics and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, fuel, mechanics, if any issues arose. Working with the police, that was my -- my main job was working with law enforcement.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And would you agree that the daily updates, the purpose of those was to inform the participants in your group of the daily events?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it was circulated each day?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And it would be circulated in the morning, presumably?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That I can’t ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- with the weather for the day
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So if we can turn to HRF00000009, and this should be dated January 28th, if I’m not mistaken. Does this look like one of the updates that the Freedom Convoy 2022 group would have circulated?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It could have. I don’t really remember reading any of them.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, we’ll just walk through it briefly because there are a few of them that I’d like to bring to your attention. This one is dated January 28th. It provides that the Saturday weather is sunny, low of minus 21, et cetera, for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And then it’s giving the general update on the overview; you see the “Overview” paragraph there: “...will be the biggest protest movement in Canada - ever.” Would you agree with that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if you scroll to Item 8, I just want to bring this to your attention because I believe you said earlier that the only purpose of this, your group, Freedom Convoy 2022, was to end the border mandate.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d noted that was my personal mandate.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Oh, okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was myself. I don’t speak for everyone on the group. So I didn’t have anything to do with these drafts on a daily basis. I was -- I was purely here for the mandates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So is there somebody we should be speaking to with respect to these daily updates?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not even sure who produced these on a daily basis. I can’t speak to that. I -- like I said, I was out -- I literally got out of bed at 7 o’clock in the morning every morning, if not earlier, and was out with the trucks the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down, please.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- sorry -- the entire day. I was -- I was on the ground the entire time. At the end of the day, if something urgent arose, I didn’t take part in any of these updates.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So you’d agree that you were one of the faces of the Freedom Convoy 2022.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Agreed, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
With the largest social media presence.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That could be contested. I’m not sure. I -- yeah.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
By others in the power struggle, presumably.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could have been, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So Item 8 states: “Of note, Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland is on the Board of Trustees for the World Economic Forum. She is a key figure there along with President Xi of China, Bill Gates and other globalists. It was the Global Economic Forum that [started]: It is 2030. You will own nothing -- that stated [sorry]: It is 2030. You will own nothing and you will be happy.” Had you heard this message before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve seen it on social media before. I didn’t -- like I said, I never read this document, so I don’t know what would be in it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. There are a series of these daily briefings, often making reference to the World Economic Forum, and there is one at HRF0000029 on February 8th that refers to, at the top -- can we pull that one up, please? Again, this is February 8th, and there’s an image of the: “Covid 19: The Great Reset is from the World Economic Forum. Deputy Prime Minister Freeland is on the Board of Trustees of the WEF.” Again, had you heard of The Great Reset before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Via social media posts. More so in the last six months. I don't recall seeing that or even hearing about it at the time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And what is the nature of your understanding of this book, The Great Reset?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've never read it.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If you'll scroll to the bottom of this, there's a reference -- a section that deals with the -- if you go to the next page, tow trucks, refusing service. You see that section?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
"According to Ottawa City Manage[r] Steve Kanellakos..." Who testified earlier about the difficulty of obtaining tow trucks to the Commission, "...all tow truck companies under contract to the City of Ottawa are refusing to provide heavy tow truck services. This has been [-- sorry, this has been] a common occurrence right across Canada as tow truck operators are considering their long term relationships with the trucking industry as well as the Canadian public. Is that consistent with your understanding?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. If we now turn to February 16th at HRF00000052, and this is the last or second to last daily update I'll bring you to. This one begins with a photograph of Prime Minister Trudeau with World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab. Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And underneath, there's a description of a, "Video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum. A video has emerged World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to this globalist organization. The video appears to have been taken in 2016 just after Trudeau became the Prime Minister..." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll to the bottom, there's a Twitter link there with TheNo1Waffler. If we scroll to the bottom, it ends with a photo of Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Do you see that photo?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And the caption reads, "Finance Minister Freeland seen here at a World Economic Forum event, says the government can arbitrarily seize bank accounts, crowd funding money and cryptocurrencies." Now this is issued on February 16th, this newsletter to your group, the faction of Freedom Convoy 2022; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Now on February 17th, another post is issued HRF00000083, which is a special notice issued by the group.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to note, you're out of time, but do you know if you'll be much longer?
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
I need about five minutes on these two points, sir, and they'll tie the two together.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you'll want to make it ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes. You have the post, and this is a, "Freedom Convoy 2022 Reaffirms its Commitment to Peaceful Demonstration" Correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in this notice, you'll see that it expressly condemns -- if we scroll down, one, two, three, fourth paragraph, "Pat King does not speak for us. We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others." Do you see that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And that accurately reflects your views at that time?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Again, I had nothing to do with this document, so it would have been inside the meetings, I would assume.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
But in terms of your views of Pat King ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- that's an accurate statement from ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
--- your perspective?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And also, talk of violence from him or others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Were you aware, sir, that the night before, on February 16th, following the other notice with the photograph of Chrystia Freeland at the bottom, that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland received a death threat?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So if we can turn to PB.CAN.00001757_REL? And again, you had said earlier, your testimony here today is that you had no control over the people who had come to the protest in response to your open invitation.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And so have you seen this email before?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have not, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
It's sent on Wednesday, February 16th at 1:23 p.m. to Chrystia Freeland, MP, and it reads, "I declare war on all the CANADIAN government for lying about covid-19. Chrystia Freeland will get a bullet to the head. Prepare to feel (our) WRATH! You'res [sic] truly, The CANADIAN covid government resistance. We will visit you at your home this Friday at 6 pm, so you better be hidden and be placed into protection because we know where you live." And signed Larry Jenkins. I assume you would reject this statement in any such action?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Unequivocally, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And the last question then is were you aware, sir, that on February 16th, the same day, the OPP apprehended someone in Ottawa who was wearing body armour and carrying a large knife along with other knives, a sword and machetes that were seized out of his truck?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not aware of that, no.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I will take you to OPS00011837.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Commissioner, I understand my friend's out of time and this witness has testified several times he has no knowledge of these things, so I'm wondering what the purpose of this is other than grandstanding.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure this is hugely helpful in the sense that he can't comment on any of these, but maybe you can just file it for the moment and try it on someone else when you have some time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, sir. So last question then is would you agree with me that when you start a fire and fan the flames, it can get out of control, and you had no control over those other factions who had come to this protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's where I spent a lot of time on the ground. I spent a lot of time working with people that were with the original convoy from the west and with people who were not with the west. If somebody had a concern, I said it on more than one occasion on my videos, if anybody has a problem, if anybody wants to yell at somebody, find my number and phone me and yell at me. I will gladly take it. The last thing I ever wanted was a letter like that. I had never -- I haven't heard that story up until now.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
It's understood. And I believe, sir, that you'd also confirm that you were not always successful in your efforts to convince the participants to agree with you or to follow you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Agreed, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that takes us, I think, to the morning break. So we'll take a little time. And so we'll take 15 minutes and continue on the return.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:32 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:50 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next -- I understand it’s the City of Ottawa wants to go next.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I think it’s more a request from the Coalition to go later, but I said we’re happy to go any time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then, let’s start with the City of Ottawa.
MR. CHRISTOPHER BARBER, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ALYSSA TOMKINS
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I’m just checking if it’s morning or afternoon. Good morning, Mr. Barber. My name is Alyssa Tomkins, counsel for the City of Ottawa. I just have a few questions for you today. We saw earlier in this proceeding that you had texts with Kim Ayotte, who is the general manager of Emergency and Protective Services of the City?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not sure of his role, but yes.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
I’m just going to put them on the screen ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
--- to assist you in that regard. So if we could bring up document OTT, I think it’s 00030057. And these are the -- the text messages were produced by Mr. Ayotte, so I believe Chris, protestor, is you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m assuming so, yes. It looks like.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Yes. So if we could just scroll down to the third page. And I just want to talk to you a little bit about your role in moving the trucks and how far it got. So if we get to here starting with this exchange, we’re not at February 15th, which I believe is the Tuesday, at 8:30. And Kim is asking you how it’s gone moving the trucks effectively and, in particular, how many big trucks you were able to move. So if we could keep scrolling, please. Just the large trucks and not the pickups or cars, and then I believe this is your response, if we keep scrolling. Yeah, can you confirm that you provided this information to Mr. Ayotte; that it’s accurate and that -- any elaboration that you see fit?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So to my recollection, we moved approximately 100 vehicles out of the downtown core on that February 15th, 40 of which were tractors, semi units. And apparently approximately 23 were moved up onto Wellington in the one block.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. Now, when you say 23, what happened to the rest of the 40?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They moved out of town. They would have went to -- out exit -- we called that Exit 88, Armoire or Antrim ---
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Empire?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Antrim?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Yeah, Antrim truck stop, yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Antrim -- there’s two different ones and I always get confused with which one it was. It was the one on the East side of town anyway, so...
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. That was my next question was about the trucks leaving downtown. Now, after this, if we keep scrolling you -- we are -- it refers, I note in passing, to you tiring yourself out, so again, your weight loss. Sorry; if you could scroll up Mr. Clerk, apologies. So then Kim writes to you about running into trouble with any trucks, and then if we can scroll down to your response. I think keep scrolling. Yeah, so if you can just confirm that you wrote this to Mr. Ayotte, and then just provide a little more context for the Commissioner.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. So February 14th, we had a meeting at City Hall with Kim and Drummond, and I believe Steve, if I’m not correct?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Steve Kanellakos?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes. We left that meeting excited, ready to go out. We’d had an agreement that we were going to move as many trucks as we could out of the residential area, up on Wellington. Myself and three other road captains who were close with me went out and started speaking with the drivers, trying to figure out who was ready to move -- sorry; who was ready to move first thing Monday morning, who we could count on, and where we could get them to move. So 7 o’clock in the morning, rolled around Monday morning, February 15th, and we struggled with communication between police, City, and ourselves, as to who allowed the move. So we were on at 7:00 a.m. It was roughly, I’m thinking about 12:30, after lunch before the first police car actually moved and we were allowed to move. So my understanding, we had 72 hours to get as many vehicles out of the downtown core as possible. Something broke down, it was out of my control. We got as many trucks as we could that day, and I remember it was cold, and I -- at the end of the day I was -- I was wore out; I was done. It was a lot of walking; it was a tremendous amount of walking. Something happened at the end of the day, there was a breakdown. I believe Chief Sloly resigned. Something happened where the deal was off the table, and we were -- we were done. So I did everything in my power. We had so many more places on Wellington, we were -- we could have put more trucks. We mapped everything out, we had guys who were ready to move. We ran out of time in the day, on the Monday. And then planned to continue moving on the Tuesday. And, like I said, something fell apart; we were done.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. When you say, “Something fell apart”; you have no further evidence on that for the Commissioner?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My communication was with Nicole with OPS, and she’d explained to me that we had our chance -- I don’t remember how; my text messages are at the police station. But we had our chance, and we didn’t accomplish what we agreed to do, and the deal was off the table.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was different from what my understanding of what the day was. Where things fell apart, I still yet to understand.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. That’s -- those are all my questions, thank you very much Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. This is Jessica Barrow for the Ottawa Police Service. Our questions have already been canvassed, so we have nothing further for this witness. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I have no questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Sloly’s counsel? (SHORT PAUSE)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good morning.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I’m Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly. I just have a few questions about some facts, if you could help us. The trucks, first of all. I appreciate you don’t have a good, accurate count of how many vehicles were in the aggregate of the convoy, or even, I suppose, the western convoy; would that be right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can you tell the Commissioner, though, whether the trucks that came with you in the part of the convoy that you had initiated; were those independent operators?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. A lot of the major companies didn’t want the advertisements from their business names on the doors for company drivers, so I would say 95, 98 percent of the tractor trailer units were independent operators that would be affected by the border mandates.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And that probably relates, doesn’t it, to your inability to have all of them follow a particular, single set of instructions. Independent operator is more likely to be an independent thinker and ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Generally, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And were those independent operators who came from the West operating tractors that had sleeping compartments?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a mix; I’m not sure of the numbers. A very small, what we consider -- they’re called day cabs, where it’s just the cab and no sleeper unit, a very small amount. I remember seeing a handful; yes, there was some -- a few there.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And a day cab operator is not -- by definition, that’s a person who’s not operating a vehicle a long -- on a long haul, unless they’ve got accommodation someplace else, which they wouldn’t normally have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so that for the drivers and operators who were in tractors with sleeper units, did they remain in their sleeper units during the period of the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d say there’d be a good -- a mixed bag. What I kind of realized, the community really came together, so there would be -- the trucks would have to run a lot because it so frigid. What one guy would do, would rent a hotel room and then cycle through drivers to get cleaned up and showered and looked after. The majority of the guys slept in their trucks in the night.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And they’d need fuel to keep running for the reasons that you’ve given; keep the unit warm?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, for heat.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so the fuel, did you recognize it as that, at -- I appreciate what you told my friends that you weren’t 100 percent sure how long this thing was going to last when you came?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Fuel wasn’t something we were worried about at the first. We didn’t know -- I didn’t know what to expect when we got here. I honestly, I had no clue. And so it was confusing to try and keep everything straight in a day.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And fuel became a challenge for you as a convoy organizer, and police and the residents in the community because of the safety; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It did, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And was that one of the things that you tried to work with police to minimize that risk?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember having conversations with some of the officers with regards to what we call a slip tank, which is a fixed 500-gallon tank in the back of a pickup truck with a hose and a pump, was a lot safer and a lot less risk of fuel spilling, compared to people walking around with 5-gallon jerry cans. That wasn’t -- that wasn’t the proper way to do things. And I tried to have a conversation multiple times to get more slip tanks in to put fuel in those trucks compared to safety hazards of the jerry cans.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. You hadn’t brought slip tanks yourselves?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No we didn’t.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. So there was -- in terms of the organization, the fuel and how you were going to provide fuel for trucks running past, say, the first weekend was not a part of the plan that you had; ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was not ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not at all.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And then a couple of things, you told us that -- told the Commissioner that you succeeded in moving the load -- I think it was a load safe truck that was on an angle at Rideau and Sussex?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Police had been unable to get that operator to cooperate; and even then, when you turned to the rest of the Rideau and Sussex operators, no luck at all?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I tried multiple times with Rideau and Sussex and -- good guys, really good guys. And they had a point, and they were protesting and -- yeah, we just had a difference. I did what I could, but ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
A couple of other things, and finally, if I could, Mr. Barber, told us, and I don't know want to know what the legal advice was, but early on in this effort, is it right that you turned your minds to what protests, what lawful protests looked like and what unlawful protests looked like?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were very fortunate that we had legal. We had lawyers fly in, I believe it was the first week, and we had guidance there. We had somebody that we could -- would tell us what our rights were because, you know, being truck drivers we're not all really good at litigating. So we had lawyers. We had people that could give us advice. We had -- there was a ton of advice there and it was very much appreciated.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Weren't able, necessarily, or maybe at all, to convey -- to put that legal advice into action across the whole spectrum of the convoys though?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And final thing, then. I think on the 7th of February, you became aware that police were intending to mobilise additional personnel in the number of 1,800. Am I right that that signalled to you as a convoy operator that there was going to be a police response coming?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it did, yeah. We knew it was inevitable at some point, I guess. We were hoping it wasn't. We were hoping were able to resolve the issues with the government and we could all go home, but that didn't transpire.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you knew as to that, the negotiation, that speaking to police, you've heard about the police, you probably saw them, the police.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I spoke with a lot of police liaison.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Liaison.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
They weren't able to -- they were never going to be able to make a -- to negotiate with you for the kinds of things that you wanted to speak to government about?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, they were successful in negotiating between the City I believe and us, and then that was a step in the right direction. We were hoping that one step forward would maybe result in another step higher and we could have an audience. But it didn't...
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
With the Federal Government?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With some sort of Federal Government, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you for your time.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Residents.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Barber, my name is Paul Champ. I'm a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, and I have some ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mr. Champ.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I have some questions for you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think you probably -- you may already be aware of this, I'm from Saskatchewan as well, so we have that in common.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, I wasn't aware of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. We're both from God's land.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Whereabouts, may I ask?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Regina.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ah-ha, good.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I've been in your area many, many times.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is God's country.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I'd just like to start about the reasons why you were coming to Ottawa. It was about mandates generally or was it just the trucker the mandates, the -- or the border restriction that truckers could no longer enter or pass through if they didn't have ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can only speak for myself, but for me personally it was the border mandates. That was the last straw, per se, in the government going too far and wanting -- I needed my voice to be heard.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And government going too far, it was everything. It was the restrictions, the restrictions from going into restaurants, from, you know, school were shut down, all those sorts of things. It just built up and that was the last straw for you.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There is so many different stories that I've heard throughout this ordeal that contributed to why we went there. When you're hearing stories of people's parents dying in a hospital bed alone ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- because mandates wouldn't allow their kids be with their adults when they took their last breath. There's -- you've seen the mental health issues in this country just plummet, it was sad. I watched that with my own children. My daughter was 16 at the time, was unvaxxed in high school, bullied by the rest of her classmates. Because she was -- wasn't vaccinated, she had to play a clarinet in a music class in a separate room.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The trucker mandate, in particular, though, the United States had a mandate in place at the same place, correct, so it didn't matter what Ottawa did?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it came in afterwards. I believe the Canadian Government announced the mandate first.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But many mandates that people were upset about were provincial mandates; right? I guess Ottawa is like a symbol of all levels of government for many of those people in the convoy?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think honestly when it come to the provincial mandates they were a lot to deal with. They didn't affect my business to the way that the federal mandates affected my business. That was the driving. And I've struggled with it. Even though they have been place since then, it has still been a struggle the entire summer to try and keep with a lack of drivers and equip we can get across the border, but we've literally lost a lot of guys.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I want to ask you some questions about your arrival in Ottawa, since the Ottawa Police didn't ask you any questions about this. I want to understand. You believed that when you were coming to Ottawa, when you were in the last 100 kilometres, your understanding was that the trucks would be going to staging areas; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Outside the city?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. And to this day, I've never been to these parts, but my understanding across Canada was two staging areas. Major Hills Park and Confederate Park were the two places that the OPP... Now whether that message got mixed up somewhere along the lines, that is what I was told and that is what I understood coming across Canada, that we had places to stay, staging areas in these two parks. We had port-a-potties set up ready to go. They were prepared for us when we got there, and that turned out to be not true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when did that change? Like who informed you that you could just go to Downtown Ottawa instead, and when?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, OPS led myself and another truck, before the convoy was cut off at the War Memorial Museum there. It became clear to me then, with the amount of people downtown, with the amount of traffic downtown. And we slowly kind of worked our way to the Supreme Court is where I couldn't go any further, and that's where I was stopped. That's where my tractor remained for -- until I believe I removed it from the city on the 7th of February.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And where did you stay during the course of the protest? What hotel?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a hotel room.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were at the York Hotel for a little while, and then we moved to the Sheraton I believe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we -- I've seen a news story about your text messages you had with some of the organisers, and we've seen reference of you having texts with Mr. Lich on January 30th where she said that she had received a call from the Command Centre. What was the Command Centre for you guys?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember seeing that in my disclosure too. So the text message was to the -- something to the sort of "received a message from the Command Centre" was the basement at the Swiss Hotel. We had people there that were looking after EMTs. We had people on the ground to make sure people were safe in the crowds. EMT/RCMP, our police response.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was quite the operation. Tamara discussed the fact they wanted to ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Gridlock the city.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- gridlock the city.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. She said, "I don't want to make this decision on my own. Can you come -- head over here soon?" Did you go over to that meeting at the Command Centre?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember having that conversation with her, and even if it had happened, I went right back out to make sure emergency lanes were open with police. So I -- if there was a meeting it wasn't to gridlock the city, it would have been to keep the emergency lanes open. That was my primary job the entire time I was here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the trucks did gridlock the city, you would agree with me?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In certain spots they did, yes. Like I tried really hard to make sure ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
At least the emergency lanes were open.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Emergency lanes. I can tell you, I almost got into a physical altercation at least twice with a driver that was ignorant about moving when I asked him to.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about you told us that you were protesting about the trucker mandate at the border. Did you -- were you opposed to mask mandates as well?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I always -- I don't like a mask, it's not something that I really enjoy wearing ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- but in the Province of Saskatchewan where I'm from I always wore my mask. I like to look at it as I didn't want to have that business get in trouble if a health officer walked in the door and seen I was being ignorant and didn't wear a mask. So I'll admit when I was in Ottawa, I didn't wear a mask here. We were here for anti mandates. But I have always followed the rules wherever they are in every restaurant. When the COVID vaccine passport came out in Saskatchewan October 1st, I didn't go to the restaurant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In Ottawa, though, you'd agree with me that large groups of convoy protesters were going into stores and restaurants and shops all unmasked. Were you aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was never part of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You weren't part of that, but that was a protest tactic, wasn't it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not on my part. I believe that was more Canada Unity and James Bauder, I believe. That was something that was discussed in the January 13th. I remember watching it and listening to James talk about that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was a tactic that was discussed, but you weren't -- you didn't necessarily support it or take part in it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never took part in it, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware that in Ontario there was a law that stores and shops couldn't allow people in with masks and they'd be fined if they allowed that -- -
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- you were aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And did you hear stories about staff who were saying things, "people, please take -- put on a mask or leave", and staff being threatened? Did you hear stories about that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I was sick for a little while with a cold, a really bad cold, and I remember going into Shopper's Drug Mart downtown, somewhere near the hotel, and I had to put a mask on because the lady wouldn't serve us, and refused to serve us, so I put the mask on and obliged.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you some questions about the money. The money that was raised was meant to cover fuel and food and travel expenses for the truckers; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. It also covered hotel bills; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We never had any access to the money. We had a short stint of access. A lot of times, the drivers paid for their own hotel rooms. We had approximately -- I believe it was, like, $20,000. That's all the access we had to the money before I believe the bank accounts were frozen.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You're talking about the GoFundMe money?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the GoFundMe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but you guys raised an enormous amount of money outside of that; right? You were raising thousands of dollars a day in cash and etransfers; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the etransfers would have went into Ms. Lich's personal bank account.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And cash?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know what happened with the cash. The cash was -- there was always people donating cash. It was all around, I guess.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's an interview summary in this matter. I presume you're aware of Mr. Eros. You know Chad Eros?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Chad says that there was approximately $20,000 being raised in cash per day. Does that sound roughly accurate to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- he was the Freedom Corp. paid accountant. I had no knowledge of that. I wasn't involved with any of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He also speaks about how that occasionally, to get rid of all this cash on hand, they were putting it in envelopes, putting numbers on it and were giving it out to truckers. You were aware of that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I took part in that spot, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You took part in that. So you were aware there was large amounts of cash.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't get to count the cash. I was given envelopes and I would go then see what drivers were in need of some cash and deposit or give them the cash.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So you were handing out -- it's my understanding those envelopes was between $500 and $2,000 per envelope?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
$500. There was another group that came in towards the end. The -- I believe Ms. Belton's group were handing out $2,000 apparently but ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- it didn't go as far.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the average trucker earns about 45 to $50,000 a year; is that right, Mr. Barber?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would say probably more. I -- maybe, I'm not sure, 70. It's kind of hard to live off $50,000 a year in this country now.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. For sure. Now the big amount of money that was raised that you could never access with GoFundMe nor Gift & Go, there was a lot of people wanting access to that money; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you guys had to deal with people opportunistically wanting to try to find ways to access that money from you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that would be a better question for Ms. Lich. I really never -- sorry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's fair. That's fair. Okay. Just getting back to the hotel bills though, your hotel bill was paid for by someone else; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was that Mr. Garrah that was paying for your hotel?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, we had -- there was a businessman that helped us out along the way, Mr. Bourgault. Mr. Bourgault. I believe he was feeding the bills for some of our hotel rooms and then mentoring us and helping us out with -- -
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about Mr. King, Pat King, his hotel bill was paid as well by your group; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he -- I don't know where Pat stayed. I was under the understanding he was outside the city somewhere in a RB&B or whatever they call it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Didn't Mr. King approach you at times asking if the war room or the command centre could provide a large amount of money to pay off hotel bills of other supporters?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall him talking to me personally about that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But him asking you to put you in -- him in touch with someone who had access to the money?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's a lot of things going on, on a regular basis, but I don't recall.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you now about the honking. Now as a truck driver, can you tell us what are air horns and train horns for?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So an air horn is a factory set of horns on a commercial truck, which is usually mounted on the roof of the cab operated by -- in my personal truck, it's a chain in the centre of the dash on the top and you pull it, it operates the two horns that are on the roof. A train horn is an after market. It is literally three large train horns with a valve. Usually guys mount them. I don't own a train horn. I've never owned one. It's mounted on the floor, and it's got a valve where you put more air to it to make a louder noise, I guess. They're obnoxious.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the purpose is because the trucks are so large to warn people from very, very, very far away that a truck is coming; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, the purpose in my opinion, personal opinion on a train horn is just ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, air horns or train horns, same ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's used for two primary reasons. One's for excitement. I always like to go back to the kids sitting on the side of the road, or when you have a vehicle pass you with kids in the back seat and they're doing the arm pump. That's the excitement part of an air horn. Then the other part of the air horn is the danger.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you're trained as a -- for your commercial license that air horns even in themselves can be dangerously loud; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But in this case, horns became a bit of a symbol for the truckers coming to Ottawa; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And a symbol for the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My truck was parked in front of the Supreme Court for -- from February [sic] 29th when we were arrived until I removed it from downtown on February 7th. So I don't believe I personally pulled an air horn after the ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That wasn't my question. My question was that the horns became a bit of a symbol for the protest.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They did. Yeah, they were everywhere, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And once the truckers parked -- you didn't, I get that, but many of the trucks were honking all day and night; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the first little while, yes. And those that wouldn't listen, we tried to reason with and get them -- I tried to reason with to try and get them under control.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And they were honking on a schedule of some type; correct? Like, it would be, like, 10 minutes straight for every 30 minutes or something like that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that. There was something to do with that. There was a couple guys in front of Parliament that were obnoxiously blowing their horn, I'll say.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the block captains were -- and road -- the block captains were coordinating within each other about how and when to blow the horns; were they not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was never part of my dealings. I involved myself in a couple of the block captain meetings, but for the most part, I didn't -- I don't remember hearing anything about that. I remember there being a curfew, what was it, seven to seven, or something like that, that somebody negotiated in the first week. My memory fails me on exactly what it was.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've told us, and you testified that you put out several videos asking the truckers to stop honking and respect the residents; is that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But isn't it true, Mr. Barber, that your videos were just telling them not to blow the horns in the middle of the night?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that. I remember -- no, the videos when I would yell -- I think there's multiple videos out there of me yelling stop and then there was daily hours, so I was sleeping at night, and to be honest with you, where I was in the hotel room, I don't remember the train - - or the horns actually waking me or having a hard time sleeping.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- just there's an HR -- I'm not going to ask to put it up because we don't have time, HRF183 is a video of February 1st from Tik Tok where you tell guys to stop honking and stop laying on the horns at 3 a.m., and the guys have stopped, which is nice. So you were asking guys not to lay on horns in the middle of the night?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'd have to see the video again to see that. I don't recall that video. I'm not saying it's not there, but ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or later that day?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It might have been in the evening, I would say. I remember -- yeah. I remember doing a video. I seen it in my evidence here last night where I showed the street in front of my hotel room with the trucks, and it was in the evening, and it was perfectly quiet.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You did put out a Tik Tok video on February 9th though, did you not, saying that if the police tried to come to a truck that they should -- notwithstanding the injunction, they should pull on their horns; correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So in regards to that video there, in consultation with legal teams, we were instructed that the bunk of your truck was considered a residence and that police needed to have a warrant to breach the residence of your truck. And we were also instructed by legal counsel that in a case of something like that, what we -- what they were telling me -- I've never got involved with something like this before, so I have no idea what happens when police kettle, but in my understanding was if the police come and there are mass arrests happening, we were allowed to try and warn the other drivers. So, yes, there was a video. It's in evidence, I believe.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's HRF000217, for the record. And, Mr. Barber, Mr. Wilson has put in an interview summary and we're going to hear from him tomorrow where he says that you were asking truckers to implement the quiet hours and to only honk between eight a.m. and eight p.m.; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, there was a -- there was some sort of a deal in the first week or so. We were allowed to honk during the days apparently, so, yeah. I'm trying to play by the rules. If I ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A deal with whom?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think with the City. I was never involved with the inner workings of the deals with the City, other than when we did the truck move, or the court injunction, or something to that affect. There was a deal out there and I'm not -- I don't remember exactly.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I think we might -- I think we heard a little bit of evidence that Mr. Wilson and Ms. Chipiuk were trying to negotiate with the City saying if the truckers agreed to not oppose the renewal of the injunction to only keep honking between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m., so they were trying to get a deal like that, as I remember.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could be possible. They worked behind the scenes relentless. They were honestly godsends. They were -- they were right there with us for help.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because the truck horns were all day. Even all day was quite ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were annoying. I remember a Sunday service in front of the stage and we were trying to listen to the pastor do the sermon, and you couldn’t. It was kind of like -- but that was in front of Wellington, and that was, I believe, in the first week, so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a last couple questions, Mr. Barber. Have you ever met or communicated with Tyler Russell?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know that name.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Derek Harrison?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know that name, either.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Have you ever met or communicated with Alex Green?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And have you ever -- you’ve already been asked about Mr. MacKenzie.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If I had, there’s -- like I said, my phone was extremely busy. There’s a ton of numbers on that phone. If there would be no contact name with it, there might have been somebody contact me, but not to my knowledge, I should say, right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I understand. All right. Thank you, Mr. Barber. Those are all my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, Mr. Champ.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’ll call on the CCLA.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Mr. Barber. I’m going to be asking you questions via Zoom. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pleased to meet you.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
My questions are going to focus on the impact of the orders freezing the bank accounts. So I understand from your earlier evidence that your bank accounts were frozen during the course of -- or after the protest. Is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they were.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can you just please specify for me, was it your personal account that was frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there were three major accounts that were frozen. One was the corporate account. The other one was a joint bank account with my lovely wife. And the third was Toronto-Dominion personal bank account. The personal bank account with Toronto-Dominion was closed for roughly three and a half months. I had no access to funds. The other two bank accounts were -- they were closed for the weekend. A couple payments went back. I had one NSF charge, which I believe, and the fuel cards got shut off for my drivers. They weren’t very happy.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And so let me just break that down. The fuel cards for your drivers, are those business credit cards?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In my line of business with the trucking company, we run cardlock cards with different fuel distributors, and I have agreements with those fuel companies to withdraw all payments automatically out of my accounts every Sunday so I’m up and current on my fuel bills.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And are those linked to your corporate account, then?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they are.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so when your corporate account was frozen, then the fuel cards were also inoperative?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that they were frozen on the Sunday, so is that -- would that be the Sunday, the 20th of February?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Twentieth (20th). They would have been frozen on the 17th, I believe. My bank manager at CIBC explained to me that they were reopened on Monday. She wouldn’t give me details. She’d explained to me that she got an email from RCMP saying it was an illegal freeze or something and that they were reopened right away. But Toronto-Dominion was a different story. They -- Toronto-Dominion was closed without any excuse. I tried desperately to get a hold of somebody from Toronto-Dominion to explain to me why my accounts were frozen, and I have yet to receive an explanation.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so with respect to when your accounts were frozen, were they frozen before or after you were arrested?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe they were frozen on the day of. We weren’t -- I wasn’t really using a debit card. All the stores were closed downtown, so I believe the 17th is when they were frozen.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And you were informed that they were frozen. With respect to your corporate account, your CIBC corporate account, it was someone at CIBC who informed you that they were frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so. I don’t think I knew that the corporate account was frozen until -- I didn’t have a cell phone, so I couldn’t check balances or anything until I got back home, I believe.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was only after the fact when you came home that you learned that it had been frozen by a letter from CIBC or by a telephone call?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That I can’t recall. I don’t remember if I got much correspondence. I’m personal friends with my banker at CIBC, so she may have sent me a text message. I didn’t have a phone, so I can’t recall.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And your T-D bank account, how did you learn -- the personal one, how did you learn that that was frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The debit card wouldn’t work.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you said that you tried to obtain information from T-D as to why it was frozen and why it took so long to reopen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you did not get -- did you get a satisfactory answer?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, I didn’t. I was given a phone number and a first name, and when I called that number, I was -- just a short answer. I believe I spoke with him. He called me back once. I kind of made it a point to call him every week to question him on why, and I never did get an answer back.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was the first name and phone number that you received, it was someone from T-D Bank?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was, yeah. Somebody in Ontario, I believe.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And did you ever receive any correspondence from the RCMP or the OPS with respect to the freezing of your bank accounts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And can you speak to me first about the impact of the freezing of your corporate bank account, what impact did it have on your business? You mentioned the cancellation of the fuel cards. Can you elaborate on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, cancellation of my fuel cards. So I had to remake the payment. The fuel cards were shut off because of the lack of payment. There was an NSF charge. One that happened down the road a little ways, I applied for a loan and was going to put a significant amount of cash down -- money down on the loan for a deposit and I was rejected from my financing company because of my -- because of the account being frozen, apparently. I don’t know. They wouldn’t really explain. They just said I was declined the loan, and I have a perfect credit rating. I have never been in trouble with credit. It’s been years since I’ve been in trouble with a credit rating, 20- some plus years, I would say, so I stand good with the banks.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And with ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was a little tough.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry, sir. With respect to the fuel cards, for how long were your drivers not able to use the fuel cards to supply the vehicles?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would imagine it was a matter of a day or two. I was into the bank right away. I was home, so I was able to get into the bank and make the payment right away. And fuel companies are good, but they get pretty nervous when a payment gets returned.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m sure everybody does. And sir, with respect to your personal bank account, you said that -- how did that impact? Can you provide a little bit more elaboration on how it impacted you? You said that you had to use cash. Can you elaborate what you mean by that or how it impacted you to have your personal bank account frozen?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It changes everything you do. You don’t realize how much you use the debit card in your pocket, I guess. I went back to -- as any Canadian, I apparently keep a small stash of cash for emergencies, and that got used. I had to go back to cash for the time being.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, sir. Those are all my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Appreciate it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, JCCF and Democracy Fund.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTOINE D’AILLY
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Antoine D’Ailly. I’m counsel to Citizens for Freedom representing the peaceful protestors in Windsor.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Appreciate it.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mr. Barber, you indicated that you led a convoy of trucks from out west to Ottawa and that you were a point of contact with local police forces along the way. Have you had -- have you ever had any contact with the Windsor Police Service?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. You indicated that while you were travelling across the country, one of your primary responsibilities was dealing with logistics, listening to the radio chatter. Do you ever recall receiving or responding to any requests for support from the demonstrators in Windsor, whether it’s, you know, request for trucks or other logistical support?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so, no. There was -- it was a busy phone. I may have missed something. I don’t remember or recall ever receiving any contact.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And if you did receive this type of request, is this something that you would have brought up with your internal leadership team?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. We were busy here enough. We weren’t worried about Windsor, Coutts or anywhere else.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And so the convoy that you were leading across the country to Ottawa, that did not pass through or anywhere near Windsor, Ontario. Is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It did not, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And were any of the road captains or other trucks that were part of your convoy, were any of them, to your knowledge, dispatched to Windsor?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge, no.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Now, earlier this morning, you were shown a TicTok video where you’re talking about, “Let’s hit them,” presumably the federal government, “where it hurts,” and I’d like to paint some clarity from you on that statement. So, in this case, when you say, “Let us hit them,” “us”, in this case, you’re referring to the convoy and its supporters; is that correct?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, against the mandates.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in terms of “where it hurts”, was one of those places you were referencing the Ambassador Bridge or were you focused exclusively on attending a protest in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Exclusively attending the protest in Ottawa.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And so, to the best of your knowledge, did any of the core organizers of the Freedom Convoy attempt to establish any kind of slow roll or any type of blockade in Windsor for the purposes of impeding border traffic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not to my knowledge.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So is it, then, fair to say that from your perspective, blocking ports of entry or impeding traffic at any port of entry, whether that’s in Windsor or in Sarnia, was not an objective of the convoy organizers?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, we had nothing to do with Windsor. That was -- as far as I know, they more issues at those border crossings, from what I watched on social media lives. It wasn’t the same thing as what we were doing here.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And when were you first made aware that the demonstration at the Ambassador Bridge had been cleared by police?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t remember or recall when -- I don’t know the story there. I didn’t pay enough -- like, I said, it was so busy here, I didn’t have time to pay attention to anywhere else.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough, okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I appreciate your time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The convoy organizers.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Barber.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Miller.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How are you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m very well, thank you.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for the Freedom Corp, which is the entity that represents the protesters, including yourself, that were in Ottawa in January and February of 2022. Good morning. How are you feeling?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Feeling good, thank you very much.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So, first question, if at any time during the protest and the demonstration if the City of Ottawa or the Ottawa Police Service provided you, the truckers and the protesters, an order from the court saying that you had to leave or move your trucks out of downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A court order?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I assume we would have left, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And I understand you’ve -- and we’ve discussions, and you’ve had discussions with legal counsel. You understand what invoking the Riot Act now mean, do you not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Approximately, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And so if a mayor, sheriff, or justice invoked the Riot Act and ordered that you and the protesters and the trucks left downtown Ottawa, what would you have done?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Instructed people to leave.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And it’s fair to say, as Chief Sloly testified, at no time did any police officer or city official come and tell the protesters that they were illegally parked and illegally, unlawfully protesting and had to leave; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge. At that point, my truck was out of the city. I had no equipment here.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So my friend asked you about the Memorandum of Understanding drafted by a Mr. James Bauder and his Canada Unity organization. I have a few questions about that. So these Canada Unity folks, to your knowledge, how many of them were in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hard to say. I honestly don’t know. James Bauder was the only one at the time that I knew. There was different people, I think, representing him.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So how many Canada Unity folks did you interact with that you knew were representing him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe none.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe none.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you observe Mr. Bauder or anyone else that may have been with Canada Unity to be violent, commit any violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you hear of any of these Canada Unity members act in a violent way or try to incite violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you hear any of these Canada Unity members state they wanted to overthrow of Government of Canada by violent means?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never heard anything.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it that you asked your lawyers in Ottawa at the time, being Keith Wilson and Eva Chipiuk, about this Memorandum of Understanding from Canada Unity; isn’t that right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t recall having a conversation with them. I believe it might have been a conversation in the group of people together that it had no bearing and it wasn’t to be looked at. It was essentially nothing.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you remember the lawyers describing it as “legal nonsense”?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I do, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I also understand, of course, you’ve had some interactions with Mr. Pat King and, as well, some of his followers. How many followers did Mr. King have?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think Pat had a substantial following on Facebook, I believe.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, no, I mean physically in Ottawa.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, there was a few. Absolutely, there was a few.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How would you -- “few” is a bit of a weasel word. Do you mind if I -- you can clarify? What number would you estimate?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were so many people here, so many people with every different background, I would -- I don’t even know if I could guess, Mr. Miller.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you observe Pat King or any of his followers carry out any acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did you hear Pat King or any of his followers incite protesters in Ottawa to commit acts of violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Pat King or any of his followers ever state to you that they’re going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Never, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what about this Jeremy MacKenzie fellow; did you ever hear of him seeking that protesters act violently or incite people to commit violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Jeremy MacKenzie or any of his followers or veterans that you know of say that they were going to physically and violently overthrow the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
None.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And lastly, of course, Ms. Tamara Lich, how’s your relationship with Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Definitely strained over the last however many months it’s been with the court order against us contacting each other. So yeah, I met her. I spent approximately a month with her and got to know her quite well. She’s a genuine -- a good person. And then I only get to see her now through legal counsel. So some day maybe we’ll fix that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I take it that -- how tall is Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Pretty close to midget height.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, she’s about a midget. And ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not even going to look at her. I’m not ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But she’s -- I take it she’s still a very scary lady; is she not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s the short ones you really have to worry about, not ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, yeah, of course, like Napoleon.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. So she’s the Napoleon of truckers; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, did the Napoleon of truckers, Mr. Lich, did she ever say to you that she intended to carry out an act of violence while she was in Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t think she’d harm a butterfly. No, she would never say that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and she -- I take it she also -- you never saw her assault anyone or commit any violent acts?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it she never said to you that she was here in Ottawa to violently take over the Government of Canada?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, my friends asked you some questions about what I refer to as collusion with some of the other protests that were outside of Ottawa, right? So you had the big ones. You had Coutts, Windsor, as well as the ones in Manitoba, and another one in Surrey. To your knowledge, did any of the truckers or protesters at all, in all of Ottawa, to your knowledge, have any coordination whatsoever in setting up these other protests outside of Ottawa?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, they were all -- as far a I understand, they were all organic movements.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you heard the evidence from Chief Sloly as well as Commissioner Carrique, they speculated that it was possible that the one protest in Windsor was coordinated with Ottawa just based on the geographical distance between the two and the splitting of resources; do you have any comment on that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t agree with that assumption. I can’t see -- being how organic the movement was, honestly, I’d say we weren’t smart enough to come up with that idea.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, that’s a fine admission. Now, if -- Mr. Register, if you wouldn’t mind putting up document HRF00000052, it’s the one that Canada, for the Attorney General, put to my client earlier. Now, did you have a chance to review this document before the questions that were asked of you of the Attorney General today?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe I did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can we just give you a quick moment to do that? And so, Mr. Register, if you could scroll down there. So there, and just for summary for the folks at home, you have a heading with Ottawa weather, inspiration thoughts for the day, a video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum, a CTV poll on the Emergencies Act which states that 81 percent of people disapprove of it, financial supporters. Scrolling down, Quebec drops mandates, feds scrap pre-arrival PCR tests, British Columbia drops capacity limits, bank run, crypto bank, the picture of Madam Deputy Prime Minister, another Albertan, and daily humour?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you see anything invoking violence in that document?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you know of any of the documents that are like that, the daily briefings that ask for violence or sought violence?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't -- I don’t think I read any of them, but I would say no, there wouldn't have -- there was never any talk about it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I'd like to bring up, if I may, Mr. Registrar, the other document that Canada put up which is HRF00000083. Okay. And you were -- it had -- well, it was put to you the video of Mr. King, Pat King, was put to you with respect to the bullets comments, and this was the media release, I take it, that was released in response to that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The dates seem pretty far apart for that. I believe the bullets comment was earlier, so I'm assuming this was the day I was arrested, so I have this one.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Do you want to have a read?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Yeah, I didn’t review it at the time, but I've seen it now since.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it -- do you agree with those statements there?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, thank you. And I also understand that with respect to the daily security briefings, the one that we looked at earlier, you weren’t involved in drafting any of these?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you didn’t review any of them before they were sent out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Now, with respect to the mandates -- and I just want to touch on that briefly -- can you tell the Commission about how the mandates impacted your children, other than what you already have with respect to your daughter's clarinet story?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I got a 19-year- old son, Jonathan. He was 18 at the time. He's refused to get the vaccine. He's been around people with COVID multiple times and he's yet to catch it, for some reason. So he's going off his natural immunity. He's a fairly strong-willed guy. I don't know where he gets that from. He refuses to get it, and I stand by him.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what else? Anything else, other than what you've already said?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My parents, my father received his second dose of this -- and it could be together or not -- his gallbladder quit working on him, and I watched my father deteriorate quite badly. He's fine now, but still, you lose that body mass, you don’t seem to get it back at 70 years old, so ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I want to move on from that and talk about some of the moving of the trucks. I understand at some point in the protest in Ottawa, you moved your trucks from Wellington -- or your truck out of the city to a (audio skip) camp?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When was that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February 7th, to my best recollection.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And is it true that when you were trying to leave downtown Ottawa that the police roadblocks made it very hard for you to leave?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was very tricky, yes. So there was roadblocks everywhere.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So can you describe for the Commission your initial moving your truck and trying to get out of downtown Ottawa and just sort of walk us through on a timeline?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was February 7th, I believe. I was parked in front of the Supreme Court so -- and I still didn’t really know my way around Ottawa that well at that time, so I remember going down whatever street would have been near there, Lyon or somewhere in there. It was tough. It was hard to navigate your way back out of there and then make sure you were on the right street that was heading the right direction. So eventually made my way out of the city. It was tough.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And how did you get past the barricades and the blockades?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You had to get a police approval to move every single barricade. There was the police there. There was -- when we first arrived in Ottawa, the city officials used payloaders, graders, and trucks to blockade the streets for safety concerns or whatever it was they did, and then when the snowfall came, the first snowfall came, I remember they removed all that and they replaced them with concrete barriers, and then a police car would sit at each barrier in the centre and would be able to move to allow traffic to go through.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And to your knowledge, was there any incidents of any of the truckers and protestors trying to leave but could not?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, if somebody needed to leave, we would facilitate that no matter what. We -- -
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I mean is, with respect to moving the police barricades.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh. No, it was a job to get somebody out of the city, but nobody ever was -- had troubles, wasn’t forced to stay, if you're meaning that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sounds good. And with respect to you walking the streets during the protest, what did you see?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Life changing. Yeah, it was amazing. There was so much grown men crying on your shoulder, women crying on your shoulder, grandmas, grandpas, you name it, kids. It was really -- and it is an experience, unforgettable.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is there anything notable, do you remember, of who you spoke to?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Who I didn’t speak to. It was everybody. You couldn't -- I remember Mr. Marazzo and I went for a walk and Mr. Wilson, and it was like, Mr. Wilson explained it was like walking on the street with Mick Jagger, he said, because no matter where you went, there was somebody wanting to stop and talk with you. It was -- there was a lot of love.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you tell us about the efforts to move the trucks on Monday, February 14th?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Frustrating. We had all those trucks ready to go, seven o'clock in the morning. We had spoke with them the night before on the Sunday. We had the streets lined up. We had everybody all placed. We had organized trucks to come. I don't remember the block. It was right in front of Parliament on the -- pretty much on West Block. We were able to -- we get them all organized, all warmed up, and then we couldn't get anybody to move. The police wouldn't move, the city officials. You could tell by my text messages with Kim that it was frustrating. We were ready to go and we were deprived time to get things going.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So at that point in time, the police blockaded you in ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- from leaving?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Even though you were trying to leave?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We were trying to -- I don't know if the trucks leaving had trouble, as much trouble as the trucks trying to get up onto Wellington. That was what my focus was. My focus was only getting the trucks onto Wellington. Other guys looked after the ones that wanted to leave the city.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So from where the trucks were parked, did the police move the barricades to allow you out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm assuming so. I didn’t take part in the actual leaving. Like I said, my focus was trucks onto Wellington.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So you were up at Wellington at that time, and you went down when the trucks were trying to get out?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand during that time, that you were able to get approximately 100 trucks and protest vehicles to leave downtown residential areas, which included 40 semi trucks, of which 23 went up to Wellington; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you were aware that the vehicles that left downtown and did not go up to Wellington, they were either went home or they went out to a base camp in Arnprior or Embrun; is that fair?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so you had cleared out two blocks on Albert Street and from some other streets; is that about right?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In the time we were allotted, we cleared out the two blocks. We had plans to clear out more.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just hold on a minute? Yes?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It's David Migicovsky for the record. I did not object initially but I do understand that the rules of the Commission do not allow counsel for the parties to cross-examine, and my friend has been cross-examining on several occasions. This is a matter of some contention, so I would just ask that his questions be phrased in a non (audio skip).
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So okay. Not a problem. So can you tell me about then how many trucks do you believe were moved in total?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was told 100 vehicles, approximately 40 trucks, 23 of which we moved up onto Wellington.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And while you were involved in the protest and in Ottawa, did you attend any businesses in (audio skip)?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
(Audio skip) frequented the Tim Horton's for meals. We frequented any restaurants that were open. Any business that I was in, the Iconic Café was another one, Shawarma, any business that we were in flourished. They did really well. Then they said -- a lot of the businesses said they hadn’t profited so much in the last two years as they did in that three weeks.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And during that time period, what was your relationship like with those business establishments, their staff, and owners, during the protest?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Want to -- a little bit about it?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember the Tim Horton's on one of the corners there, truckers were mopping the floor because the staff was overrun, and guys had the mop pail out and they were cleaning the floors. Of course it's wintertime, sloshy and disgusting floors. I was pretty proud to see that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did any of the business owners approach you before the end of the protest about anything they wanted to say to you?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I recall, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I take it you've seen throughout this proceeding witnesses discuss views on assaultive or threatening behaviour and what that means. You've seen that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Apparently, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I understand that you heard a statement from the Prime Minister where he called unvaccinated Canadians racists, misogynists, and asked "should we tolerate these people?" Do you remember hearing that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember hearing that, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What's your perception of that? Would you say, in your opinion, is that assaultive or threatening ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just -- let's be careful again. You've got to...
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Understood. What was your perception of that statement?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very divisive for a leader of a country to be pitting one person in the country against the other person. I would say I felt, you know, not very leadership worthy.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And have you experienced assaultive and threatening words and behaviour from other politicians or others?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've seen some in the news reports, I guess, yeah, there's a few. Not that I can recall the names of the ministers, but there's been a few.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, thank you. Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Commissioner.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
A few points of clarification based on some of the answers you've provided, Mr. Barber. In response to questions from counsel for former Chief Sloly, you indicated that in your efforts to speak to the protesters at Rideau/Sussex, you said -- I think you spoke to them, and you said they had a point. Do you recall that?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember what their point was?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember what their point was. They -- no. There was a barrier, an -- a language barrier there because they were French Canadians. So my French is -- I don't speak French so I had a hard time understanding them.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when Mr. Champ was asking you questions, I thought I heard you mention that Ms. Belton's group was one of the groups that was handing out cash. Did I hear that correctly?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was sort of a rift, sort of a split between the two groups. Ms. Belton's, yeah, when I heard the $500 versus the $2,000, that was -- Ms. Brigitte's was trying to -- the group of people that were donating that were passing $2,000 instead of the $500.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did Ms. Belton's group have a label?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't think so, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how many people were in Ms. Belton's group?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- that I can't say, 10, 15.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then again, in response to questions from Mr. Champ, you mentioned a Mr. Bourgault.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you -- do you know Mr. Bourgault's first name?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Joseph.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just the Commission a bit more about what Mr. Bourgault was doing and your interactions with him?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, Joseph Bourgault is a good friend of mine. He is a big business owner in the Province of Saskatchewan, a well-respected man, and he offered his services to mentor. He spoke to me on a regular basis just on protocol and advice, and a really good guy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was he providing financial support to the protesters?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I think at first our bank accounts were all -- like we had no money coming in. GiveSendGo or GoFundMe wouldn't release any funds to us, so we were financially strapped for the amount of hotels. So hopefully someday we can pay that back.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, I don't think I got the answer there.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did Mr. Bourgault provide financial assistance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did he provide financial assistance?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With hotel rooms.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Krajewska, from the CCLA, was asking you about bank accounts that were being frozen. And I -- as I understood the TD account you spoke about you said it had been frozen for 3.5 months?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why it was frozen for that long?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To this day, I still don't know. I would imagine it had something to do, Ms. Lich added my name to her Toronto Dominion Bank where the funds, the GoFundMe funds went into for the GoFundMe, the one million, and then the e-transfer. For transparency she added myself to her bank account so everything was out in the open, there was two sets of eyes looking at it. She was -- the biggest worry for her was that somebody would accuse her of misusing funds, which wasn't the case.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the TD Bank account you're referring to, that was an account that originally was opened by Ms. Lich?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a personal Toronto Dominion. So all she did was merge the two savings accounts, so I could physically see her savings account on my card. That's the only thing that I assume had to do with why my bank account was frozen for three-and-a-half months.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you had a pre-existing TD account ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and then Ms. Lich added you to the account that she had created for the purposes of getting the GoFundMe ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- funds?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, for the purposes of transparency so that the -- there was more eyes on that account than just hers.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then my final area to examine is we've heard a little bit more about Confederation Park or Major Hills Park. Did you ever see Confederation Park or Major Hills Park?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm hoping I can this week. I have never seen it, I have only heard about it. So that'll be on my list to do after this Inquiry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what use is made of that park normally?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no idea.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Those are my questions.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I just have a couple of questions. They're probably just general in the sense of what would be the cost of the fuel to have driven here from Saskatchewan?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With today's fuel prices, roughly about $3,000 probably in fuel to come out here from Saskatchewan. It was quite the feat.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just one thing I wanted to follow up up on was the -- you were -- one of your main functions or certainly what you were doing was to try and keep the emergency lanes open.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you said there were some that you just couldn't keep open, and I think you mentioned Rideau. Is that ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Rideau was the hard one. There was -- Rideau was the one we tried multiple times. The other one was somewhere on Kent I believe.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We tried really hard to keep Kent open. I remember the first time we visited Kent, we worked all day, we got that lane wide open, and we were so proud of ourselves. We came back the next morning and it was completely plugged again. We kind of -- we kept working on them.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So those are two areas where the lanes just couldn't be kept open?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there other areas that you found either you couldn't keep open or were regularly problematic?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To my recollection, everything was well looked after other than those two areas. Those were the only two areas of concern that I felt that I had troubles with personally, and the group of people that I was with.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And would that be because they were not, among other things, they weren't part of your group? Is that -- or is it were they part of your group, some of them?
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the Rideau/Sussex was not part of our original group. They were there a day or so before we arrived. Kent may have been. I didn't recognise all the trucks. There was some in Kent that was part of the original West group, I can confirm that, yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And that's -- those are my questions. So thank you very much for coming. And ---
Chris Barber (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we'll -- we will adjourn for the lunchbreak. We'll take an hour for lunch and come back with another witness.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.
The Clerk (POEC)
Order, à l’ordre. Order, à l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commisaire.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, bon après-midi, good afternoon.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Notre prochain témoin est M. Charland, M. Steeve Charland.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
The Clerk (POEC)
Monsieur Charland, voulez-vous prêter serment ou faire une affirmation solennelle ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
The Clerk (POEC)
Vous avez le choix, de prêter serment sur un document religieux ou de faire une affirmation solennelle.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je vais prendre l’affirmation solennelle.
The Clerk (POEC)
Parfait. Pour les fins du procès- verbal, s’il vous plait veuillez indiquer et ensuite épeler votre nom en entier.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Steeve Charland. S-T-E-E-V-E C-H-A-R-L-A-N-D.
The Clerk (POEC)
Affirmez-vous solennellement que le témoignage que vous allez rendre devant le Tribunal, devant la Commission, sera la vérité, toute la vérité et rien que la vérité ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je l’affirme.
The Clerk (POEC)
Merci.
M. STEEVE CHARLAND, SOUS AFFIRMATION SOLENNELLE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Monsieur le Commissaire. Avant de commencer avec mes questions, mon confrère Nicolas St- Pierre, qui est l’avocat de M. Charland, est dans l’audience et il aimerait faire une objection.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. (COURTE PAUSE)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…vers le micro, c’est pour les fins du dossier.
Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel (Steeve Charland)
Merci. Donc Nicolas St- Pierre, pour les fins du dossier, je représente M. Charland. Donc M. Charland fait face à certaines accusations criminelles découlant de la manifestation qui a eu lieu à Ottawa, donc pour ces fins, donc nous invoquons l’article 5 de la Loi sur la preuve.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Je comprends et je considère que le témoin s’oppose à répondre à chaque question pour le motif que ses réponses pourraient tendre à l’incriminer ou tendre à établir sa responsabilité dans une procédure civile ou criminelle, quelle qu’elle soit. Et si, sans la présente loi, ou toute loi provinciale, le témoin eut été dispensé de répondre à cette question, alors bien que le témoin soit, en vertu de la présente loi ou d’une loi provinciale, forcé à répondre - puis j’entends, je comprends qu’il est sous sommation - sa réponse ne peut être invoquée et n’est pas admissible en preuve contre lui dans une instruction ou procédure pénale exercée contre lui par la suite, sauf dans le cas de poursuite pour parjure en rendant ce témoignage, ou pour témoignage contradictoire. Alors, on tient pour acquis qu’il s’est objecté pour chacune des questions.
Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel (Steeve Charland)
Merci beaucoup.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ça suffit, alors merci.
INTERROGATOIRE EN-CHEF PAR Me ALEXANDRA HEINE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors bonjour, Monsieur Charland, mon nom est Alexandra Heine et je suis avocate de la Commission. Alors j’aimerais vous poser quelques questions aujourd’hui au sujet de votre participation au Convoi de la liberté qui s’est déroulé au mois de janvier et février 2022 à Ottawa. Le but de mes questions est d’aider le Commissaire avec son mandat. Pour commencer, je vais vous montrer un document, et Monsieur le greffier si vous pouviez s’il vous plait montrer le document SAE-11, c’est votre déclaration de preuve anticipée.
The Registrar (POEC)
This is the clerk speaking. For the record, we do have the French version available. It -- the doc ID for that is SAE00000010.FR.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If you could please put that one up. Thanks. Alors Monsieur Charland, est-ce que ce document est la déclaration de preuve anticipée que nous vous avons envoyée ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et avez-vous eu la chance de réviser cette déclaration ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Êtes-vous d’accord avec son contenu ou aimeriez-vous faire des corrections ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, les corrections ont déjà été apportées.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Alors vous vivez dans la région Grenville-sur-la-Rouge au Québec.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Où se situe cette région ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Entre Montebello puis Lachute.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et vous êtes travailleur autonome dans le commerce du bois de chauffage. Pourriez-vous nous expliquer à quoi ça ressemble être travailleur autonome dans ce domaine ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben ça, c’était la réponse pas mal sommaire. Depuis un an d’ailleurs, je n’en fais plus beaucoup étant donné ce qui m’arrive dans ma vie. Outre ça, je suis aussi écrivain, conférencier et blogueur.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Et pourriez-vous nous expliquer qui sont les Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C'est un regroupement d’hommes et de femmes qui s’est approché de moi, dû à l’attrait que mon discours avait. Et on est devenu un mouvement de protestation, un mouvement qui se lève pour la justice et qui prend soin des oubliés. NA
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Qui sont les oubliés?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Les gens qui ont été oubliés du système, surtout pendant cette crise-là. Des gens qui sont pas capables de manger. On a fait beaucoup d’épicerie, on a nourri des itinérants, on les a habillés. Depuis les deux dernières années, on a fait énormément pour les gens du peuple qui pouvaient pas subvenir à leurs besoins.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quand est-ce que ce mouvement-là a commencé?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… quelque part en 2020. Notre premier événement a été la Saint-Jean-Baptiste avant tout le monde, qui était le 19 juin, si je me rappelle bien. Le 19 ou 20 juin 2020. On a fait une Saint-Jean-Baptiste et puis au nombre de billets qu’on a vendus, tous les profits ont été versés à une maison qui vient en aide aux itinérants, pour les jeunes de 18 à 30 ans, pour les mettre dans rue… pour les remettre sur la… sur le marché du travail. Pis par la suite, ben on a milité, pis on a continué à faire des campagnes de financement. On a vendu des items à notre effigie, et on fait des campagnes de financement pour continuer de prendre soin de ceux qui en avaient besoin.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Combien de gens font partie des Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
À une certaine époque, on est monté jusqu’à 400 sur une page Facebook, mais c'est dur à dire, puisqu’on parle plus d’un mouvement que d’un groupe. À Gatineau, on s’est rendu compte que le mouvement était beaucoup plus grand qu’on pensait, parce qu’on a eu l’appui de millier de… de… de Canadiens. Qui nous aidaient indirectement, sans être directement proche de l’action avec nous autres. Fait qu’on parle de 400 membres sur une page Facebook, mais des milliers de supporteurs.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors c'est un mouvement pancanadien, pas juste un mouvement québécois?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On a même eu, à une certaine époque, des membres jusqu’en Floride et au Texas.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Mais la plupart des membres viennent du Québec.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
La majorité.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Pis je comprends que les Farfadaas font du militantisme social et politique? Sh : Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pourriez-vous nous expliquer ce que ça veut dire le militantisme pour vous. Et quelles causes de nature sociale et politique vous préoccupent? Vous et les Farfadaas.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, je vais, je vas parler pour moi, puisque tout ce qui s’est rapproché de moi depuis ce temps-là, c’était pour mon discours sociopolitique, justement. Donc, je vais prendre pour acquis que, y ont fait de moi leur porte-parole. Donc, ils étaient d’accord avec ce que je pensais. C'est pas ma première participation du côté militant, là, même dans la preuve qu’on a rempli ensemble, vous pouvez voir que j’ai été membre du conseil de la Meute, et avant, j’ai été membre de... d’autres groupes. Et avant, en solo, j’ai participé souvent à des conférences, euh… La sociopolitique m’a toujours intéressée, dans le sens où j’ai toujours trouvé que le peuple n’était pas assez entendu par nos élus. Ce qui fait en sorte que nos élus ont la possibilité de faire un peu ce qu’ils veulent, outre la campagne électorale. On a des campagnes électorales qui durent à peu près un mois, pis pendant ce temps-là, nos élus nous disent ce qu’on veut entendre pour être élus et les quatre années qui suivent, ils ne remplissent pas leurs mandats. Et les gens du peuple ne sont pas entendus. On n’est tellement pas entendu qu’on est obligés d’aller manifester pour se faire entendre. Et encore, on n'est pas encore entendus. Ce qui prouve que la politique est très détachée de… de… du peuple. On fait partie un peu de deux classes de sociétés distinctes, pis c'est pas normal. Je veux dire, c'est nous tous qui avons bâti ce pays, pis on aimerait beaucoup participer aux décisions. On aimerait beaucoup plus de démocratie. Mon combat à moi, ça toujours été d’unir le peuple. Afin qu’on cesse de se laisser diviser par les races, par les religions, par les croyances, quelles qu’elles soient, par les orientations sexuelles, on s’en fout! Par les langues. C'est vraiment une question du peuple qui n’est pas entendu par les élus, et du peuple qui est de plus en plus dans la pauvreté et dans l’indigence. Moi, personnellement, j’ai toujours prôné pour un mandat plus impératif que représentatif, qui ferait en sorte que les élus devraient remplir leurs promesses électorales. Sans quoi on aurait des moyens légaux de tenir recours contre ces édiles. Alors qu’on est aux prises avec des mandats représentatifs, ce qui fait en sorte qu’ils ont le droit de nous dire en toute légalité ce qu’on veut entendre pour être élus, et de prendre pour acquis qu’ils s’en vont nous représenter à l’Assemblée nationale ou dans les Parlements provinciaux. Pis à ce moment-là, ils votent toutes les lois qu’ils veulent sans notre consentement. Pis dans les dernières années, on a vu passer beaucoup de lois où on n’était pas d’accord. Mais y a personne qui vient nous demander notre avis. Un moment donné, faut crier plus fort pour être entendu.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit que vous faisiez partie du groupe la Meute, pourquoi êtes-vous parti de ce groupe-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pour des divergences d’opinions, avec d’autres membres du groupe la Meute, on avait beaucoup travaillé afin que ça devienne un organisme à but not lucratif, démocratique. Mais y avait une espèce de regroupement de personnes qui a continué de travailler pour la Meute inc. Qui est au registre des entreprises, donc les profits ne sont pas versés dans le peuple. C'est la chose qu’on était le plus pas d’accord. Et la démocratie au sein du groupe, on n’était pas d’accord parce qu’il manquait de démocratie, les membres n’étaient pas plus écoutés que les citoyens aujourd'hui dans le peuple. Alors on a décidé de quitter le groupe.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, vous êtes préoccupé avec un manque d’engagement de la part du gouvernement, avec les électeurs. Un manque de responsabilité, de transparence et que vos voix sont exclues. Effectivement, les discours au niveau politique, est-ce que, en bref, c'est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En effet. Pour moi, la classe des travailleurs au Québec ou au Canada - je parle du Québec parce que je suis Québécois – je trouve que la classe des travailleurs n’est pas assez entendue. À l’heure où on se parle, en 2022, on est rendu à trois jobs par couple. Il y a quelque chose qui ne fonctionne pas dans la société. On n’arrive plus à joindre les deux bouts avec les salaires qu’on a, l’inflation explose, les salaires ne suivent pas. Il y a quelque chose qui ne marche pas dans la société. Pis on voit que dans les paliers du gouvernement, ça dépense à coups de milliards, pour ces choses que, selon nous, ne seraient peut-être pas essentielles. Un moment donné, il va falloir que le partage des richesses soit plus équilibré.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, maintenant, j’aimerais vous demander des questions au sujet du convoi de liberté. Quand avez-vous pris conscience de ce mouvement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, j’en ai entendu parler de vive voix par des gens qui étaient proches de moi, qui voyaient passer des choses sur les réseaux sociaux. Je dirais, début janvier, la date exacte, je pourrais pas te dire. Euh… j’ai plus pris part du sérieux de la chose, là, le samedi. Nous autres, on a commencé à participer le 29. Donc, le samedi d’avant, c’était le 22. Le 22, on avait un rassemblement d’amis chez nous, pis ça parlait beaucoup de ça : On devrait-tu participer, on devrait-tu pas participer. Pis moi, ce que je voyais à date, c’était un regroupement de travailleurs qui s’en allait là pour leur permis de travail. Afin de pouvoir continuer de passer les lignes sans le pass sanitaire. Donc, ça m’interpellait pas trop. Euh… si le groupe de camionneurs s’en allait seulement pour leur permis de travail, ça englobait pas la communauté au complet. Fait que ça m’intéressait pas, jusque-là. Jusqu’à temps qu’on entende un reportage d’un Québécois. Euh… je me rappelle pas à quel poste, là. Parce que j’essaye de pas trop écouter la télévision. Mais…
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors vous avez dit que vous êtes arrivé le 29. Vous êtes parti de Lachute, au Québec?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et comment est-ce que vous avez regroupé le reste des membres du mouvement des Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, on a fait un post sur notre page, pis j’ai fait un post sur ma page publique. Disant que le 29, on partait en convoi de la halte 50 à Lachute, pis on se rendait jusqu’à Gatineau pour prêtre mains fortes à la manifestation d’Ottawa.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pis il y avait combien de personnes? Et aussi de véhicules? Comment de personnes est-ce qu’il y avait et véhicules, quelles sortes de véhicules faisaient partie de ce convoi-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Il y avait, notre convoi mesurait 107 kilomètres de long, et puis, quand on est rentré à Gatineau, j’ai reçu un appel d’un gars que je connaissais, qui venait de la Beauce, avec 1500 voitures. Puis on lui a conseillé de passer par un autre chemin parce par la 50, c’était impensable, on avait 107 kilomètres de convoi avec nous autres. De toutes les sortes de véhicules. Des autos, des winnebagos, des camions, des pickups, n’importe quoi, c’était tous des gens du peuple mélangés. Me ALEXANDRA HEINE ; Quand vous dites des camions, vous voulez dire des autos lourdes, des… des (inintelligible?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, pas là. Je ne parle pas de truckers, je parle vraiment d’automobiles, pickup, euh… winnebagos, roulottes, au max, là. Mais c’était vraiment un convoi de citoyens.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Ok. Pis j’ai pas demandé au greffier de vous montrer ce document-là, mais, vous avez fait une entrevue avec un journaliste du Droit, qui est un journal d’expression francophone, je pense que c’était le 30 janvier. Est-ce que c’est exact?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Possible, oui. Le 30 janvier, oui… le dimanche le 30 janvier, oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis ce journaliste vous a demandé pourquoi vous avez décidé de vous joindre aux manifestations à Ottawa, à la place de vous joindre, par exemple, aux manifestations à l’Assemblée législative au Québec et vous avez répondu que vous avez profité du momentum et que les gouvernements se sont donnés des mandats, qu’ils ont dépassé leur mandat.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous pouvez lire un peu…
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pardon, commissaire.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ils sont en train de tout traduire, alors, il faut modérer, s’il vous plaît.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pas de problèmes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. « Comment ça se fait qu’ils ont le droit d’avoir ce pouvoir, de nous dire qu’à 20 heures, on ne peut plus sortir de chez nous puis on me dit dans un pays libre, tu me dis avec qui je peux souper à Noël. J’ai le droit d’aller chez Costco à 300, mais je ne peux pas inviter ma grand-mère à souper. Si ça, c’est normal, moi, je ne veux plus vivre dans ce pays-là; je vais me battre jusqu’au bout, jusqu’à temps qu’ils remettent notre liberté (audio qui coupe). Sinon, je ne sais pas où ça va finir, mais on va le faire de façon pacifique, comme on l’a toujours fait. » C’est encore exact?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est mes paroles intégrales.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis quel objectif spécifiquement vouliez-vous atteindre en participant au mouvement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Excuse-moi?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quel objectif spécifique est- ce que vous vouliez atteindre en participant au convoi?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Participer au plus grand rassemblement de l’histoire du Canada afin d’unir le peuple, afin qu’on ait une voix assez forte pour être entendue enfin, pour dire à nos élus que ça suffit, qu’on en a assez eu, que vous avez assez pris de décisions sans nous demander notre consentement. Comme je vous l’ai dit en pré-interrogatoire, je suis pas un spécialiste pis je ne conteste pas s’il y a eu virus ou pas, je n’en suis pas là, c’est pas ma job, je n’ai pas d’opinion là-dessus. Par contre, j’ai toujours trouvé que les mandats allaient au-delà des mandats, évidemment; il y a des lois qui ont été changées qui n’ont aucun rapport avec les mesures sanitaires. Il y a des choses que je trouve qui ont été excessives; au Québec, on nous a même conseillé le Glorial – je m’excuse, mais il y a quelque chose qui marche pas. On nous a demandé de ne pas inviter notre grand-mère à souper pendant qu’évidemment, comme j’ai dit, on pouvait aller magasiner à 300 dans le même centre d’achats. Tout était incohérent puis dès le début, moi, ce qui m’a fait poser beaucoup de questions, c’est que dès le départ, le Premier Ministre Trudeau a déclaré qu’il ne fermerait pas les entrées au pays, qu’il ne fermerait pas les aéroports mais nous autres, on a été confinés chez nous. Je ne suis pas spécialiste, je ne suis pas politicien, mais il me semble que j’aurais commencé par arrêter de laisser rentrer le virus qui venait d’ailleurs, mais on nous a enfermés chacun chez nous. On a obligé les gens à un couvre- feu, des mesures sanitaires exagérées. En bout de ligne, je pense et on a la preuve aujourd’hui que les traitements de ce dit virus ont été probablement été avec plus de dommages collatéraux que le virus lui-même.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous avez aussi dit dans cette entrevue-là que vous vouliez atteindre cet objectif – vous venez juste de nous le décrire, votre objectif – de façon pacifique. Avez-vous pris des mesures proactives pour entreprendre… pour vous assurer que votre objectif allait être accompli de façon pacifique?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Effectivement! À tous les jours, à toutes les minutes et à toutes les heures, je suis l’un de ceux qui tentent de faire respecter nos traditions, si je peux dire ainsi, de façon pacifique. Je suis militant depuis une trentaine d’années partout où je peux; jusqu’à aujourd’hui, j’ai aucun casier criminel, j’ai toujours été de celui qui respectait la Constitution canadienne et la Charte des droits et libertés du Québec parce qu’on ne milite pas de façon violence, ça ne donne rien. On a toujours milité de façon pacifique pis j’ai toujours influencé les gens autour de moi à rester pacifiques, à ne pas faire certains gestes, même si la colère gronde autour de nous autres de temps en temps. J’ai toujours influencé les gens à rester pacifiques pis les gens qui sont proches de moi aussi, ça a toujours été le message qu’on a passé. Quand les gens voulaient outrepasser ces règles-là qu’on s’était auto-établies, on se devait de les remettre à l’ordre parce que c’est vraiment pas dans nos valeurs d’aller vers la violence.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit que vous avez influencé les gens de manifester de façon pacifique – par quel biais? Est-ce que c’était les réseaux sociaux ou de vive voix?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
De tous les moyens possibles pour me faire entendre.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quels réseaux sociaux est- ce que vous utilisez pour passer le message, que vous avez utilisés?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Facebook.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Facebook, OK. Et d’autres médias sociaux?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Lors d’un discours à Ottawa, il y avait une estrade, si vous vous souvenez, sur la rue Wellington et il y avait différentes personnes qui allaient faire des discours là. Puis vous, vous avez été un jour puis vous avez déclaré que « Je ne partirai que lorsque j’aurai retrouvé ma liberté ou lorsque je serai mort ». Que voulez-vous dire exactement par cette déclaration?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, ça me semble simple : on va partir morts ou libres puis comme je suis pas mort, je vais continuer à me battre pour la liberté.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais est-ce que vous feriez référence spécifiquement aux manifestations à Ottawa? Alors, est-ce que votre but, c’était de rester là indéfiniment?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Si ça avait été le cas puis si ça avait été possible, je serais probablement encore là, mais dans notre cas, il a été question d’une injonction de la Cour qui nous a expulsés de notre… du stationnement dans lequel on avait eu des ententes commerciales pour le louer à tant par jour.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK – on va discuter un peu plus de l’injonction plus tard. J’aimerais juste retourner à votre voyage à Ottawa de Lachute. Alors, vous êtes parti de Lachute le 29 janvier puis vous avez dit que votre convoi était d’environ 1,7 kilomètre de long. Est-ce que vous savez…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
107 kilomètres.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pardon, 107 kilomètres de long. Est-ce que vous savez combien de personnes, combien de véhicules faisaient partie de ce convoi-là de 100 kilomètres, environ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Aucune idée; on pourrait peut-être l’évaluer si quelqu’un a une calculatrice, mais si ça mesurait 107 kilomètres quand on est sortis à Gatineau, ça sortait encore à la halte 50 à Lachute puis si on rajoute les 1 500 véhicules qu’on a refusés de la Beauce, de combien de véhicules il s’agit, 107 kilomètres, j’en ai aucune idée, je peux pas vous dire.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis on vient juste de parler du stationnement du ZB, alors vous êtes arrivés à Gatineau le 29. Est-ce que vous êtes allé au stationnement du ZB tout de suite?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ça, c’est devenu un quartier général pour les Farfadaass?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et est-ce que vous aviez une entente avec le propriétaire du stationnement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quelle était l’entente?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
L’entente était qu’il louait son stationnement en entier pour la somme de 1 000 $ par jour pour une période indéfinie. Il y a eu des ententes verbales et des ententes par écrit par des échanges par email avec la personne qui nous servait de contact sur les lieux, à Gatineau. C’est pas moi qui a dealé avec ça; on avait une amie, une membre de notre groupe qui était… qui s’occupait de la location du terrain.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, on est au 29 janvier. Est-ce que vous avez reçu un appel de Pat King le 29 janvier?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh, j’ai pas reçu un appel de Pat King, non, j’ai reçu un appel d’une tierce personne que je me souviens plus qui qui me disait que Pat King cherchait de la sécurité et cherchait de l’hébergement. Je l’ai donc mis en contact avec les gens de Gatineau qui pouvaient l’aider à ce sujet.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pourquoi est-ce que Pat King veut vous demander à vous et aux Farfadaas si vous pourriez lui donner de la sécurité?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Il m’a pas demandé à moi. Comme je vous dis, il y a une tierce personne qui m’a appelé pour me dire « Vous êtes peut-être les bonnes personnes pour fournir de l’hébergement puis de la sécurité à Pat King qui s’en vient » et je l’ai référé à des gens du groupe qui pouvaient être les bonnes personnes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Les gens de votre groupe?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et cette personne-là qui vous a contactée, comment est-ce qu’elle, elle a été contactée par Pat King?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Elle a entendu un live de Pat King comme quoi qu’il avait besoin d’hébergement et de sécurité.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, on est le 29 janvier, je comprends que vous avez tenté de traverser le pont MacDonald Cartier pour que vos camions puissent aller rejoindre le reste des véhicules qui étaient stationnés sur la rue Wellington – pas le reste des véhicules Farfadaass, mais les autres manifestants, mais que la police vous a pas laissé passer. Est-ce que c’est exact?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ça, c’est plutôt le dimanche, 30 janvier.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui, c’est exact. Il y a des camions et… des gros camions puis des véhicules normals (sic) qui voulaient traverser et aller rejoindre les manifestants d’Ottawa. On s’est donné comme mandat de faire valoir la Constitution citoyenne canadienne et de les faire passer sur le pont Portage. On a donc dû négocier avec les services de police en place pour en venir à une entente en milieu de journée qu’on passerait par le pont MacDonald puis on a escorté les gens qui voulaient entrer par le pont MacDonald.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis je comprends que ces négociations-là que vous venez de référer, c’était avec la GRC, des policiers de la GRC?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Entre autres. Cette journée- là, j’ai eu affaire avec la Police municipale de Gatineau, la Sûreté du Québec, et la GRC, oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Avec qui est-ce que vos négociations principales étaient-tu avec la GRC ou avec les services municipaux?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Les négociations principales se sont surtout gérées avec la Police municipale de Gatineau jusqu’à tant que je leur démontre qu’ils sont hors de leur juridiction, que le pont appartient à la GRC et que j’exigeais un négociateur de la GRC, ce qu’ils ont fini par m’envoyer.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis la GRC vous a laissé passer sur le pont Macdonald-Cartier.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ils nous ont escortés jusqu’au pont Macdonald, c’est le compromis qu’on a trouvé. Ils voulaient vraiment pas qu’on passe par Portage, mais nous autres, on voulait rentrer, ça fait qu’on a fait un détour par Macdonald.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, si je comprends votre trajet, vous étiez proche du pont Portage, vous avez été au nord sur la rue Maisonneuve jusqu’à Macdonald-Cartier. La police de la GRC vous a escortés au sud à travers de Macdonald- Cartier vers le Parlement.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Jusqu’au plus proche qu’on pouvait s’approcher du Parlement.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis on a reçu un vidéo, on va pas l’écouter parce qu’il est une heure de longue, mais le vidéo démontrer que plusieurs véhicules, des camionnettes, des roulottes et des membres des Farfadaas ont traversé le pont à travers du marché By et sur la rue Rideau, ils ont tourné à l’est vers le Parlement. Est-ce que cette trajectoire est exacte?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… écoute, si je me souviens bien, la course s’est arrêtée sur Rideau. C’est à peu près la seule chose que je peux changer dans votre discours là, mais on a arrêté sur Rideau parce que rendus sur Rideau, c’était un camion en arrière de l’autre. On est allés jusqu’aussi loin qu’on pouvait.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous vous souvenez…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
À la suite des évènements, on n’était plus là là.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous vous souvenez où sur Rideau vous avez arrêté?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Je ne suis pas résident d’Ottawa, je peux pas…
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
C’était-tu proche du centre d’achat? Est-ce que vous pourriez… pouviez voir le Parlement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et le Château Laurier?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La semaine passée, durant les audiences publiques, des fonctionnaires de la Ville et des dirigeants de la PPO et du Service de police d’Ottawa ont témoigné que certains membres des Farfadaas et les véhicules qu’ils conduisaient étaient situés à l’intersection de Rideau et Sussex. Est-ce que ça vous dit quelque chose?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Mais, écoutez, les Farfadets, on parle d’un mouvement qui est devenu beaucoup plus vaste à Gatineau et Ottawa. On ne connait pas tout le monde. On vous parle de milliers de supporteurs, y’a des milliers de Québécois et Ontariens et autres qui se sont identifiés au mouvement Farfadets. J’ai pas la gestion de tous les membres de ce qui s’est passé. Nous autres, on s’est vraiment concentrés à tenir notre quartier général, comme on l’a appelé, dans le stationnement Zibi et d’aller prêter main-forte comme on pouvait, d’offrir un stationnement aux gens qui voulaient venir se stationner de façon sécuritaire afin qu’ils puissent marcher jusque sur la colline Parlementaire pour aller manifester. C’était un petit ça notre mandat. Mais, je veux dire, si y’en a qui sont allés se stationner ailleurs, j’ai pas répertorié tout ça.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors ,je vais juste vous montrer des documents qui vont peut-être rafraichir votre mémoire. Alors, Monsieur le greffier, est-ce qu’on pourrait, s’il vous plait, montrer OPP-823.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
En attendant, j’ai manqué le nom du stationnement où vous étiez.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Zibi.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Zibi.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Z-I-B-I. C’est un stationnement appartenant à Zibi qui était géré par Dubé — le propriétaire étant Zibi, puis le locataire étant Dubé, c’est lui qui gère les espaces de stationnement à Zibi à Gatineau.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et ça, c’est où le stationnement Zibi? C’est…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est au coin Portage puis Maisonneuve, juste sur le coin, au même emplacement qu’ils font le Festibière.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, that was OPP-823, if we can go to page 2. Alors ici, ça dit: « The OPS has advised that members of Farfadaas are blocking major intersections in the vicinity of the blockade and are being uncooperative with the police. » Et ici, on parle de l’intersection de Rideau et Sussex. Est-ce que ça rafraichit votre mémoire?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Je pourrais pas te dire. On n’a pas occupé Rideau et Sussex.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Je veux juste vous montrer un autre document. Monsieur le greffier, c’est OPS-5886. That’s OPS- 5886. Peut-être si je vous expliquer où est Rideau et Sussex, c’est proche du… on appelle ça the War Memorial, alors c’est en face du Château Laurier, y’a une statue et the Tomb of the Unknows Soldier, c’est l’intersection là proche du centre d’achat Rideau.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, comme je vous dis, on n’a pas le contrôle sur tous les gens qui s’identifient au mouvement Farfadets, et si j’aurais eu connaissance vraiment qu’il y avait un blocage de gens qui s’identifient Farfadets, je pourrais répondre, mais là je peux pas répondre.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, maybe we can actually bring up… oh no, that’s the right document. Thank you. Alors, si on… if we scroll down. Alors ici, ça dit : « Approximately 200 people scattered throughout different locations on Wellington, focal point of…
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
…demonstrator…
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non, s’il vous plait.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. « …focal point of the demonstrator activity at Sussex and Rideau where a group known as Farfadaas from Québec has completely blocked intersection to vehicular traffic. Farfadaas group was uncooperative with police throughout the day. Organizers of the group indicated that they would open the intersection, if permitted, to move further up on Wellington towards Parliament Hill. Information passed on to PLT for further contact. » Quand ils font référence à l’organisateur du groupe, est-ce que c’est possible que c’était vous?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On est-tu en train de parler encore du même évènement à Rideau-Sussex?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oui.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je vois bien que je ne réponds pas ce que vous voulez entendre, mais, comme je vous dis, j’ai pas eu connaissance personnellement qu’il y a des membres des Farfadets qui bloquaient Rideau-Sussex. Si y’a des gens qui se sont identifiés à notre mouvement, comme plusieurs milliers dans le pays, ils ont fait ça de leur propre chef. Je ne suis pas au courant.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous avez parlé à la police à un certain moment donné à Ottawa — alors pas quand vous étiez au stationnement à Gatineau à Zibi —, à propos des emplacements des véhicules ou des camions que vous avez conduits à travers du pont Macdonald-Cartier?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Alors, vos engagements avec la police étaient seulement avec la police municipale à Gatineau.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui, sauf la journée où est- ce qu’on a rentré les véhicules. Comme je vous dis, on est allés reconduire les véhicules jusqu’aussi loin qu’on pouvait, après ça chacun était laissé à lui-même là, j’ai pas le contrôle sur la suite. Le restant de l’évènement, oui, on a eu à négocier avec surtout la police municipale de Gatineau. J’ai pas eu vraiment de discussions autres avec les autres corps policiers, à part des « Salut! Peace! ».
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Et quand vous dites que vous avez parlé à la police de Gatineau quand vous étiez à Zibi, de quoi est-ce que vous avez parlé? Quelles étaient vos interactions avec ces policiers-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, on avait des discussions tous les jours concernant le fonctionnement de ce qu’on voulait faire, ils venaient s’informer c’était quoi nos projets de la journée, ils venaient s’assurer que tout était correct. On a eu une très bonne communication avec eux autres concernant le trafic routier, les entrées, les sorties. La routine.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Est-ce que vous avez déjà entendu les noms Tom Marazzo, Keith Wilson, Ewa Shepiak et Tamara Lich?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… oui, certains d’entre eux, je les ai déjà entendus, oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est assez dur d’acheter Tamara Lich.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous les connaissez personnellement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous leur avez… est-ce que vous avez communiqué avec eux durant le convoi?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, nous, on les… c’est un groupe qui est dans le contexte de cette enquête, on les connait, ce sont les organisateurs du convoi, et on a des preuves que, le 8 février, Tom Marazzo et Ewa Shepiak sont allés parler aux manifestants du Québec qui étaient sur la rue Wellington au coin de Rideau-Sussex pour leur demander de déplacer les véhicules. Est-ce que vous êtes… est-ce que vous vous souvenez de cet évènement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. J’étais pas là. Le Mouvement Farfadets est grand, on est pas responsables de tous les Québécois.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La même journée, vous avez mis un vidéo en ligne et vous avez dit — alors, ça, c’est encore le 8 février —, et vous avez dit : « Vous seriez gentils de nous aider à aider ces 42 truckers qui sont parqués drette devant le Parlement. Si eux autres s’en vont, le siège est en danger. » Est-ce que vous vous souvenez de ce vidéo-là? Et de quoi, de quel évènement est-ce que vous parliez ici?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On nous a demandé de l’aide de la part des 42 truckers qui venaient du Québec, effectivement. Ces gens-là avaient de la difficulté à avoir accès au financement qui venait des truckers de l’Ouest, ça fait qu’on nous a demandé si on pouvait faire quelque chose. Étant donné l’engouement qu’il y avait alentour de notre mouvement, on leur a promis de l’aide et on les a aidés.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, ce vidéo-là n’avait pas rapport avec l’évènement qui… avec Tom Marazzo et avec Chipiuk.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces 42 truckers-là, ils venaient d’où?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Du Québec.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous savez de quelle région du Québec?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et comment est-ce que vous avez été mis en contact avec eux?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est quelqu’un qui m’a demandé d'aller rencontrer un des truckers qui étaient à l’avant du groupe, puis plusieurs. Écoute, y’avait plusieurs gangs de truckers qui étaient cinq, six ensemble. Moi, j’ai été jaser avec le leader des groupes. On est allés leur demander qu’est-ce qu’on pouvait faire pour les aider.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
En termes de financement.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En termes de financement, de nourriture, d’essence.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis alors, vous aviez accès à du financement. Est-ce que ça, c’était à travers des dons, des membres ou des Canadiens? Pouvez-vous juste nous expliquer un peu d’où ça venait.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, comme depuis le début, la naissance du mouvement, y’a des gens qui achètent des articles à l’effigie des Farfadets ou qui font carrément des dons parce qu’ils savent qu’on remet l’argent dans la rue directement, contrairement aux organismes qui se disent officiels où est-ce qu’il y a une loi qui dit qu’on doit remettre 10 % dans la rue, et les… je vous dis 10 %, sous toute réserve, j’ai pas lu le document dernièrement, mais les organismes officiels à but non lucratif ont le droit de remettre 10 % dans la rue et de dépenser le 90 % qui reste en administratif. Pour ce qui est des Farfadets, on s’est engagés à remettre dans la rue 95 % de ce qui rentre et de se servir du 5 % qui reste pour payer la poste et l’essence dans les véhicules des gens qui nous prêtaient main-forte, ce qui fait en sorte qu’on a acquis la confiance parmi le peuple. Y’a des gens qui délibérément veulent nous aider parce qu’ils savent qu’on aide les gens les plus démunis. Pendant cette occupation à Ottawa, on a pris sous notre aile des gens qui étaient démunis et qui étaient à la manifestation. ON a donc… on s’est donc engagés de les fournir en essence du mieux qu’on pouvait puis on a demandé via ma page Facebook. Étant donné que les sites de financement du convoi de l’Ouest, c’était médiatisé, qu’ils étaient gelés, que le GoFundMe avait été fermé et que tout ça était gelé, ben, on a dit aux gens qui nous connaissent : « Étant donné qu’on sait que vous nous faites confiance, si vous voulez retirer votre argent du GoFundMe pour l’acheminer vers les Farfadets, nous autres on s’engage à le remettre dans la rue », ce qu’on a fait. Ça fait que l’argent a recommencé à rentrer.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis les gens démunis, vous avez mentionné, est-ce qu’ils vous contactaient à travers de Facebook ou… c’était qui, ces gens-là essentiellement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En général, c’est des gens qui nous contactent via nos Facebook, oui, qui réussissent à rentrer en contact avec des gens proches du noyau organisationnel du mouvement. Pour ce qui est des évènements de Gatineau-Ottawa, ben, on a aidé les gens directement dans la rue. Je peux vous dire qu’on a nourri des centaines d’itinérants de Gatineau et d’Ottawa, outre les camionneurs.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quand vous dites vous les avez nourris, comment est-ce que ça se passait exactement?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Là où on avait un campement dans le stationnement du Zibi, on avait une cuisine populaire où est-ce que les gens qui voulaient faire du bénévolat allaient faire à manger puis tout le monde était bienvenu pour manger, puis le mot s’est rapidement passé dans Gatineau qu’on pouvait manger dans le stationnement Zibi pour une contribution volontaire qui dit que si t’en as, tu peux en mettre, mais si t’en as pas, tu peux manger quand même. Ça fait que y’a eu beaucoup de personnes dans le besoin de Gatineau qui sont allées manger là. Par la suite, dans notre engagement à aider les camionneurs, on a demandé si y’a des gens dans le mouvement qui étaient prêts à aller donner du temps sur un kiosque sur la rue Wellington, ce qui a été fait. Il y a beaucoup de gens proches de nous qui ont dit « on va s’en occuper », puis nous autres, on n'a rien eu à faire, ça s’est fait tout seul, c’est les gens qui se sont occupés de d’ça. Y’a eu des gens qui ont prêté main- forte pour monter un chapiteau sur la rue Wellington et offrir soupe, café, et tout ce qu’ils pouvaient pour les truckers, pour les manifestants qui venaient passer une journée ou deux, et pour les itinérants.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous personnellement, qu’est-ce que vous faisiez de jour à jour durant le convoi? Est- ce que vous alliez à Ottawa à chaque jour? Vous restiez à Gatineau?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Qu’essé je faisais… j’éteignais les feux. Je vais éteindre le mien, je reviens.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais je comprends que vous avez, vous, été membre…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
J’ai passé mes journées… j’ai passé mes journées à faire des relations humaines entre notre organisation, les propriétaires du stationnement, les forces de police, que ce soit municipales ou autres, les médias, les gens qui avaient besoin de nous autres sur Wellington, les gens qui pouvaient fournir de l’aide. On était dans un Winnebago nous autres, puis c’est devenu le centre névralgique des communications. C’est ce que j’ai fait 16 à 20 heures par jour.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quand vous dites que vous vous êtes engagé avec des médias, qu’est-ce que vous voulez dire?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, les médias qui osaient venir nous poser des vraies questions pour avoir des vraies réponses. On s’est donné la peine de leur répondre. J’ai servi de porte-parole pendant tout cet évènement-là. En s’assurant qu’on avait affaire à des médias qui faisaient du journalisme et non de la chronique d’opinion.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces médias-là, c’est qui exactement? C’est quelle sorte de journal? C’est de réseaux sociaux, c’est des blogues?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Y’a eu des journalistes alternatifs, mais y’a aussi eu des journalistes qu’on dit officiels. Écoute, on a eu des entrevues à Radio-Canada, à TVA, au 104,7 à Gatineau, dans Le Devoir, dans Le Droit… durant les trois semaines qu’on a passées à Gatineau, on a été très médiatisés. Tous les journalistes qui étaient prêts à venir nous poser des questions et répondre aux nôtres, parce que je me suis toujours assuré qu’on ne revivrait pas ce qu’on avait déjà vécu dans les autres groupes, c’est-à-dire avoir de la chronique d’opinion. Je prends pour acquis qu’un journaliste se doit de venir chercher notre parole et non de la modifier ou de prendre seulement les bouts qui font leur affaire, ce qui a été trop vu dans les dernières années. Ça fait que les articles qu’on a eus, j’ai été satisfait, mais j’ai dû refuser plusieurs articles, effectivement, de gens qui sont de mauvaise foi et qui travaillent pour des médias dans le but de propager la haine à notre égard et de faire de la désinformation.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci. Puis j’aimerais juste retourner au financement. Alors, le 4 février, je comprends que, initialement, les transferts électroniques, si les gens voulaient faire des dons, ça allait à votre compte à vous, mais le 4 février, ça, vous avez dirigé le monde de faire des dons à quelqu’un d’autre. Pouvez-vous juste nous expliquer le contexte de ça.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, écoute, j’étais déjà trop occupé pour le nombre de tâches que j’avais, ça fait que ç’a déjà… c’était déjà dans nos discussions de demander à déléguer mes tâches et puis à partir du 4 février, j’ai commencé à avoir des problèmes avec mon réseau virtuel, mon email qui recevait plein de spams, plein de virus, puis mon réseau bancaire aussi qui faisait défaut. On a donc décidé de déléguer vers quelqu’un qui avait du temps pour s’occuper des entrées et des sorties d’argent virtuellement.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et ces personnes-là, ils font partie du mouvement Farfadets?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis, Monsieur le greffier, si on peut mettre à l’écran OPP-1767, puis ça va être à la page 33 — page 33. Alors, ce que je vous montre, c’est un rapport de renseignements de la PPO pour quelque chose qui s’appelle Project Hendon, c’était des rapports de renseignements qui avaient rapport au convoi. Alors ici, ça dit : « SPVG Intel advised that according to — et c’est rédacté — the Group Farfadaas has handed 14 000 to Quebec truckers in Ottawa in the last two days. He also mentioned that an additional $10,000 will be distributed to truckers today in Ottawa. » Est-ce que c’est exact?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je me souviens pas des dates exactes, mais les montants sont exacts, oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Et ça, c’était de l’argent que vous aviez reçu à travers des transferts électroniques ou des dons en monnaie?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Les deux.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Les deux.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Il y avait des transferts électroniques qui étaient faits via l’autre personne du mouvement, puis à nos deux kiosques de café et soupe, on avait une collecte volontaire, les gens qui voulaient contribuer à nos kiosques, ils mettaient de l’argent dans une chaudière puis on compilait ça puis on redistribuait.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors, au total, vous avez redistribué environ 24 000 $.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Plus que ça.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Plus que ça. OK. Est-ce que vous vous souvenez du montant?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, pas exactement. On est en train de fermer nos livres comptables le 31 octobre, notre année est terminée, nous, chez les Farfadets. C’est dans les mains du comptable. Je ne pourrais pas vous dire le montant exact.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et cet argent-là été redistribué aux camionneurs et aux démunis, alors les gens de Gatineau et d’Ottawa qui vous contactaient parce qu’ils avaient… ils étaient en besoin.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
C’est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Durant les trois semaines qu’on a été là, on s’est concentré vraiment sur ce qui se passait à Gatineau et Ottawa. Ensuite, on a pu reprendre nos activités régulières qui est d’aider les familles à la grandeur de la province.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Plus tôt aujourd’hui on a parlé de l’entente que vous aviez avec le propriétaire du stationnement de Zibi et vous avez mentionné l’injonction. Alors j’aimerais juste parler de ça pour le moment. Alors le propriétaire du stationnement du Zibi acceptait vos paiements et vous avez dit que c’était 100 $ par jour.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
1000 $ par jour.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
1000 $ par jour, pardon. Et un moment donné, ce propriétaire là a arrêté d’accepter vos paiements et a déposé une demande d’injonction à la Cour supérieure du Québec. Pouvez-vous nous parler un peu de ceci ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben il y a eu plusieurs stades dans cette négociation-là, on n’est pas passé de l’arrêt de paiements à l’injonction directement. On s’est rendu compte qu’il ne prenait pas les paiements, qu’il ne les acceptait pas. Les jours ont passé et on avait d’autres choses à s’occuper, donc on ne s’est pas occupé de ça, nous autres on essayait de faire nos paiements chaque jour. Entretemps, on a eu une plainte de la municipalité, on a eu la visite des pompiers qui sont venus faire deux inspections. On avait des pompiers retraités dans notre organisation qui se sont assurés de faire le lien entre les pompiers de la municipalité et notre organisation pour suivre les recommandations municipales qu’on a fait. Écoute, ça sentait la pression de plus en plus pour se débarrasser de nous autres de façon légale, mais je veux dire, ça ne fonctionnait pas parce que nous autres on essayait de payer comme l’entente initiale, puis on a rempli tous les mandats. Tout ce qu’on nous a demandé question sécurité publique et d’incendie ont été remplis à la lettre. Puis un jour est arrivée l’injonction, dans le but de nous déloger.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis la plainte à la municipalité, c’était la Ville de Gatineau.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis les pompiers, ils vous disaient quoi quand ils venaient vous parler des questions de sécurité ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ils sont venus faire leur inspection puis ils nous ont recommandé de placer l’essence à une place plus sécuritaire, de mettre des banderoles, de mettre des extincteurs à chaque endroit stratégique. Ils ont vérifié les poêles à bois qu’il y avait dans les campements. Ils ont fait leur inspection en bonne et due forme puis ils nous ont fait des recommandations qu’on a suivies là. C’était très logique.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK alors, vous avez suivi ça, malgré ça, il y a eu une injonction.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
M’mm.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
La Cour a accueilli la demande d’injonction le 15 février.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je pense que oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et de ce que je comprends, vous vous êtes déplacé à la paroisse Notre-Dame-du-Saint- Rosaire, est-ce que c’est exact ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est faux.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
J’ai fait ma comparution à l’injonction par internet.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Mais je veux dire, le groupe qui était au stationnement de Zibi, où est-ce que vous avez… où est-ce que vous vous êtes déplacé après que l’injonction a été…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Quand on a quitté.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je ne pourrais pas vous dire que c’était à St-Rosaire (sic), je ne suis pas du coin, mais oui on s’est déplacé dans un stationnement d’église, qui nous avait été offert par la personne qui s’occupe de l’église, jusqu’au lendemain matin parce que lui aussi il s’est fait demander de nous déplacer. On s’est redéplacés.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oui alors, je comprends que… oui, vous étiez en contact avec quelqu’un de la paroisse et c’était parce que depuis trois semaines il récupérait de la nourriture pour redistribuer à des organismes de charité à Gatineau.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben écoutez, je ne voudrais pas mettre cette personne-là dans le trouble, mais étant donné que c’est censé être à huis clos je pourrais en parler. En fait, cette personne-là n’avait plus la possibilité de remplir son mandat dans la société, à cause des mesures COVID. Donc il ne pouvait plus recevoir les itinérants de Gatineau et les nourrir, à cause des mesures COVID, à cause que la majorité des itinérants ne sont pas vaccinés, ils n’avaient pas leur passe sanitaire, ils ne pouvaient pas entrer dans la bâtisse, ils ne pouvaient pas dormir à la chaleur, ils ne pouvaient pas avoir un repas chaud. Puis lui, il s’est retrouvé avec de la nourriture en trop, donc il s’est dit : « tant qu’à la perdre, je sais que vous êtes capables de nourrir les itinérants, je vais vous envoyer la nourriture qu’on ramasse et je vais vous envoyer mes itinérants. » Puis c’est ça qu’on a fait.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis vous êtes restés dans ce stationnement-là une soirée et est-ce que vous êtes partis le 18 février ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je pense que c’est la bonne date, oui. Est-ce qu’on peut me dire quelle date le… lequel dimanche le Parlement a été démantelé ? C’est tu le…
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Je ne suis pas sûre, mais je pense que… on a un document qui dit que vous êtes partis le 18 février.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je me fie sur votre document, je pense que c’est bon.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors le 18 février, c’était quelques jours après que le gouvernement fédéral a invoqué la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence. C’était invoqué le 14 février.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et les mesures prises dans le cadre de cette loi, est-ce qu’elles ont eu des effets sur vous, personnellement ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que votre compte en banque a été gelé ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Pouvez-vous nous parler…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Mon compte en banque a été… premièrement restreint. Quand vous m’avez demandé si j’avais eu des effets, j’ai répondu non puisque je ne me souviens pas d’avoir été à Ottawa, moi, après le dépôt de la Loi des mesures d’urgence (sic). On s’est occupés de notre campement nous autres, puis on a regardé la situation aller. Donc côté physique, ça n’a pas eu de répercussions sur moi. Mais effectivement, oui, j’ai commencé à avoir des problèmes avec mon réseau bancaire. C'est-à-dire qu’en premier plan, la Banque Nationale a restreint mes privilèges, a réduit le montant que j’avais le droit de retirer par jour, a réduit… a réduit tous les privilèges que j’ai acquis depuis 30 ans comme client de la Banque Nationale. Dans un premier lieu. Puis par la suite, si je ne me trompe pas, c’est mi-avril j’ai reçu une lettre pour me dire que mi-mai ils étaient pour fermer mes comptes parce qu’ils avaient fini de faire affaire avec moi. Ce qu’ils ont fait.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors votre compte, il y avait des restrictions qui étaient placées sur votre compte et ça, ça a duré vous avez dit mi-avril ou mi-mai.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Jusqu’à temps qu’ils le ferme.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
OK. Puis quel impact est-ce que ça a eu sur votre habileté de… d’utiliser votre argent ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben vous savez ce que c’est que de vivre en 2022 sans compte bancaire, c’est quasi impossible. Ça a été très difficile. Puis aujourd’hui encore, puis si je me rouvre un compte dans une autre banque, je vais avoir les restrictions d’un débutant alors que ça fait 30 ans que je suis client dans la même banque. J’avais les privilèges dont j’avais le droit. Aujourd’hui, je ne les ai plus, je suis obligé de passer par d’autres comptes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Alors quand votre compte est fermé par la Banque Nationale, mi-avril ou mi-mai, la seule raison qu’ils vous ont donnée c’était à cause de votre participation au Convoi de la liberté.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, ils ne m’ont donné aucune raison, comme plusieurs de mes amis d’ailleurs, il a simplement spécifié que nos relations d’affaires étaient terminées. On a essayé de poser des questions et ils ne veulent pas nous répondre. Mais, c’est conjoint avec plusieurs personnes que je connais, qui ont participé aux mêmes événements. Deux plus deux, ça fait quatre.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Que eux, leur compte bancaire a été fermé en permanence.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que c’était mi-avril ou mi-mai aussi, ou est-ce que c’était au mois de février ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Toute aux mêmes dates.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Puis là, je comprends que vous êtes retourné chez vous le 18, et là vous êtes retourné à Vankleek Hill et vous vous êtes fait arrêter par la police. Est- ce que c’est exact ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
La semaine suivante, oui.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Quels sont vos chefs d’accusation ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Méfaits et incitation aux méfaits.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et est-ce que… vous nous avez dit plus tôt que c’est la première fois en effet, que vous vous êtes fait arrêter par la police.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
M’mm.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Et quel impact est-ce que ça a eu sur votre vie ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
23 jours de prison, 10 jours d’isolement. Un gros mois pour m’en remettre. Je ne suis pas un criminel, je ne suis pas habitué au système de justice, je n’ai fait en sorte de me ramasser devant la justice. Aujourd’hui, on m’a tellement médiatisé que je suis reconnu partout puis avec la haine qui s’est passée dans les médias, je n’ai pas juste des amis. Donc les gens qui nous jugent par rapport à l’opinion que les médias ont répandue, je ne suis pas toujours en sécurité puis je ne me déplace jamais seul. Et ce n’est que la pointe de l’iceberg, je pourrais vous parler de mon dossier.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Vous avez dit 23 jours, vous avez passé 23 jours en prison.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Passé 23 jours en prison, puis si je suis sorti, c’est parce que j’ai accepté des conditions lourdes, qui m’enlèvent mes droits fondamentaux. Je n’ai plus le droit de m’exprimer sur les réseaux sociaux, je n’ai plus le droit de me trouver en présence de certaines personnes, je n’avais même pas le droit d’être sur Wellington, vous avez dû changer mes conditions pour que je puisse revenir sur Wellington. Et euh… et d’autres conditions. Ça fait partie des droits fondamentaux d’avoir le droit de s’exprimer au Canada, à ce que je sache, je ne les ai plus.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Est-ce que vous avez autre chose à ajouter sur l’impact de la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence, avant que je vous demande d’autres questions ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben oui. Quand vous avez commencé ma préinterrogatoire, vous avez commencé par me demander si j’avais été témoin de violence. Oui, j’ai été témoin de violence. J’ai été témoin de violence de la part d’un groupe qu’on nomme Antifa, qui a vandalisé des véhicules dans la nuit afin de saccager la manifestation en cours. Et j’ai aussi été témoin de la violence des policiers, des forces de l’ordre. Et de ce que je ne sais pas comme, qu’est-ce qu’ils nous ont envoyé comme mercenaires qui n’avaient pas de numéro sur leurs uniformes, qu’on pouvait pas identifier et qui, pour la plupart, ne parlaient pas notre langue, qui ont usé de violence pour démanteler une manifestation pacifique. Avec des femmes, des personnes âgées et des enfants. Ça, j’ai été témoin de cette violence-là. J’ai jamais été témoin de violence dans les manifestants, pis j’ai discuté aussi avec des gens qui résident à Ottawa, je peux vous assurer que tout ce que vous avez entendu dans les médias, c'est de la merde.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m going to have to empty the room if there is -- no ---
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je suis désolé.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- outbursts like that. S'il vous plait, le respect oui, vous avez de l’émotion, je comprends, there’s a lot of support, but please respect that this is in the nature of a hearing and outbursts like that may require that I empty the hall, which I don’t want to do, because it’s a public inquiry and it’s important that people be here to witness it.
Merci monsieur le commissaire.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je suis désolé. J’ai créé ça.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez… ben non, exprimez-vous librement, c'est pas le problème. Le problème, c'est la discipline interne, ça, c'est ma job.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, je vous remercie, vous me redonnez mon droit de parole aujourd'hui. Ça fait du bien.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est l’objectif.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… je voudrais aller plus loin dans le raisonnement. Je peux pas croire qu’au Canada, dans un pays pacifique, avec des manifestants pacifiques, qu’on en arrive à démanteler des gens qui veulent seulement se faire entendre de cette façon. Je connais des gens, aujourd'hui, qui sont en exil au Mexique et à Cuba, parce qu’ils ne peuvent pas supporter de voir ce qui se passe dans notre pays. Ça aucun sens. On s’est toujours dit dans un pays libre, et dans un pays pacifique, et les manifestations ont toujours été dans un esprit pacifique. S’ils ne l’avaient pas été, j’aurais pas participé. Je n'ai jamais participé à aucune manifestation qui a été gérée par la violence, pas plus aujourd'hui. Et ce que les forces de l’ordre ont fait, c'est carrément dégueulasse. Il y a des gens qui ont été blessés, il y a des gens qui ont été aspergés de poivre de cayenne. Nous autres, on a été expulsés avant. Peut-être heureusement. Mais c'est dégueulasse ce qui s’est passé sur la Colline parlementaire. Tout ça parce que le gouvernement n’est pas capable de mettre ses culottes pis venir jaser avec nous autres quand on demande le dialogue. Merci!
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, j’ai presque fini mon temps, alors juste vous demander deux questions rapidement. Est-ce que vous avez été en contact ou communication avec des manifestants ou organisateurs impliqués dans les manifestations, des blocages à des portes d’entrées? Alors, il y avait Coutts, en Alberta, Emerson au Manitoba et Windsor, le pont Ambassador.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci! Alors, monsieur Charland, ça c'est la fin de mes questions. Est-ce qu’il y a quelque chose que vous aimeriez dire aux commissaires, que vous pensez que vous n’avez pas eu la chance de dire aujourd'hui.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui. Outre ces événements, outre toutes les manifestations qui peuvent s’avoir passé (sic) dans notre pays, après plus de trente années à m’impliquer activement en politique comme citoyen du peuple, avec les gens qui veulent essayer de s’impliquer avec les citoyens du peuple, ce que je trouve le plus aberrant, c'est qu’un jour, vos ancêtres qui ont été élus ont écrit la Constitution canadienne. Et les chartes des lois et libertés gèrent le Québec, et les autres pays… les autres provinces, à la base, je trouve déjà aberrant qu’on nous donne une charte pour nous expliquer ce qu’on a le droit d’avoir le droit. Vous nous avez donné des chartes, vous nous avez donné des outils pour nous expliquer ce qu’on a le droit. À la base, je trouve ça déjà aberrant. Puis aujourd'hui, en 2022, nous autres on est obligés de se lever, on est obligés de négliger nos familles, on est obligés de négliger nos emplois, on est obligés de négliger nos maisons, de négliger notre train de vie parce qu’on en paye tous le prix. Tout ça pour vous demander de recommencer à faire votre travail de faire respecter la Constitution canadienne et les chartes des droits et libertés. Je comprends pas comment ça se fait qu’on ait dérapé à ce point dans notre pays. J’ai toujours été fier de rester ici, parce qu’on était sensiblement en démocratie et sensiblement en paix. On a toujours eu une place pour s’exprimer de façon pacifique. Pis là, on ne l’a plus. Si cette commission ne nous donne pas raison, il n’y a plus personne au pays qui va avoir le droit de manifester. Ni ceux qui sont contre mon idée, mon opinion. Je veux dire, les médias ont créé la gauche et la droite, moi je ne sais même pas ce que ça veut dire. Moi je suis un gars du peuple, pis je vais essayer de me lever pour que le peuple puisse continuer à se lever et puisse continuer d’être entendu. Gauche, droite, en haut, en bas, j’en ai rien à cirer. C'est devenu le peuple contre les élus, qui sont gérés par d’autres forces, tels les multinationales, l’argent. Ça n’a plus aucun sens dans une société qui se dit évoluée en 2022. Je ne comprends pas qu’on est obligés d’exiger que nos chartes soient respectées. Sinon, on est victimes de représailles et d’emprisonnement, pour avoir offert la soupe et du café à des gens qui n’en avaient pas. Je ne mérite pas ce que j’ai reçu, pis je vais continuer à aller le dire à mon procès. Si ce pays m’accuse de méfait pour ce que j’ai fait, il y en a une maudite gang dans la salle qui devrait être en prison.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Merci monsieur Charland. Et merci pour votre temps aujourd'hui. Alors, c'est la fin de mes questions. Mes amis, mes confrères, mes consœurs vont avoir des questions pour vous. Alors je leur passe la parole. Merci!
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci! Alors, premièrement, j’aimerais demander au gouvernement du Canada d’aller en premier.
CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR Me CAROLINE LAVERDIÈRE
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Bonjour monsieur Charland. Caroline Laverdière. Je fais partie de l’équipe d’avocats qui représentent le gouvernement du Canada devant la Commission.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Vous représentez le gouvernement du Canada, ou vous représentez les libéraux du Canada?
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je représente le gouvernement du Canada, monsieur Charland.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Merci!
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Les… et je veux juste mettre quelque chose au clair tout de suite, le… votre mouvement, vous l’appelez Farfadaas avec deux « a » à la fin, mais vous le prononcez, vous prononcez le mot comme « farfadet ».
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ça dépend qui le prononce, moi j’ai toujours dit que j’étais un Farfadets.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ok. Alors je vais, je vais suivre votre, votre exemple. Je vais vous… je vais appeler le mouvement les Farfadets. Hum… les Farfadets, un des signes distinctifs - et vous avez mentionné que vous vendiez beaucoup de marchandises à l’effigie des Farfadets - un des signes distinctifs c'est la veste de cuir noir, pas de manche, qu’on porte par-dessus d’autres vêtements généralement. Sur laquelle il y a des écussons. Vous me suivez jusqu’à maintenant? Je vous demanderais de verbaliser les réponses, s'il vous plait.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, il faut le dire. Sinon, c'est pas transcrit.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui. À l’écoute.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Il y a une transcription à la fin de toutes les auditions.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
D’accord.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Le hochement de tête n’est pas enregistré sur (inintelligible).
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, je suis habitué de ne plus parler, moi. Je m’excuse.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
(Rires). Hum, et sûr… bon, les écussons. Parlons des écussons. Typiquement, là, vous me corrigerez si j’ai pas raison. Typiquement, il y a une fleur de lys bleue à l’envers sur la poitrine, du côté droit.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ok. Hum… il y a l’écusson, évidemment ça c'est, j’imagine, la signature, là, dans le dos. Il y a un très grand écusson en demi-lune, qui… ça dit Farfadaas.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Farfadet, mais « a a ». c'est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Euh… en dessous de l’écusson Farfadaas, farfadet, toujours dans le dos de la veste en cuir noir, on retrouve un écusson – pis là c'est en forme d’un doigt d’honneur, n’est-ce que pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Et à l’intérieur du doigt d’honneur, on a écrit « FYou ». Oui?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On dit « Fuck you”.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ok.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est pas à vous que je dis ça.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous personnellement – pis y a des gens qui rajoutent des écussons, leur surnom, leur nom, des choses comme ça – vous, vous aviez l’artiste…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
sur la poitrine, et sur le côté, et si je ne me trompe pas, vous aviez un écusson qui disait : « Chef gourou » ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ok. Il y a aussi, comme vous dites, vente de marchandises pour amasser de l’argent. Il y en a… il y a plusieurs itérations de ces vêtements-là, entre autres des… des vêtements, des…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Hey, je m’excuse, avez-vous une question concernant les vestes? Parce que tout ce qu’on a fait, c'est des affirmations, mais, euh… vous…
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ça, c’est l’idée, Monsieur Charland, c’est l’idée! [rires] D’autres vêtements et accessoires, donc je dis, entre autres, des accessoires, des vêtements avec F. Legault inscrit dessus, brodé.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Des tuques, des chandails à manches courtes. Y a-t-il autre chose?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, il y en a eu une panoplie, là; il y a des gens qui se sont occupés de la Farfaboutique.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Et puis plus spécifiquement pour le convoi à Ottawa, est-ce que je comprends que vous avez fait faire des foulards Woodstruck, Freedom Woodstruck, que c’est un foulard que vous portiez autour du cou, vous personnellement, régulièrement – vous avez fait faire des foulards comme ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Un peu comme le foulard que vous avez aujourd’hui. Le foulard Woodstruck, il était noir et il y avait une insigne dessus, au-devant; c’était une feuille d’érable à l’envers, si je me trompe pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Un côté bleu, un côté rouge?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pour la fleur de lys et la feuille d’érable, oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Et la fleur de lys était à l’intérieur, là, à l’intérieur de la feuille, on ouvrait puis on voyait bien un symbole de fleur de lys toujours à l’envers.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Il y avait aussi des tuques… vous avez vendu des tuques – on en voit souvent dans les réseaux sociaux, sur internet – des « Coupe le câble », hein?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ça, je pense que c’est une phrase que vous affectionniez particulièrement; vous avez mentionné que vous essayez de ne pas trop regarder le câble?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben en fait, moi, je la disais, c’est plutôt les gens qui l’affectionnaient.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Oui, OK, parfait. Puis vous avez vendu beaucoup de tuques avec « Coupe le câble » dessus?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Comme les tuques « F. Legault » aussi ont été assez populaires?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Il y a aussi – on voit ça dans la manifestation à Ottawa à plusieurs reprises – vous avez créé votre propre drapeau…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
… d’inspiration… vous avez pris une inspiration du drapeau des Patriotes.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Qui était en ligne horizontale, là, vert, blanc et rouge…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Et vous avez mis en superposition un Farfadet.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Exactement.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Un lutin vêtu de bleu et il dit « Heille, bonjour », quelque chose comme ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Heille salut.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Salut, c’est ça – qui est une autre phrase signature pour vous, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Dans les médias sociaux.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Vous avez fait vos devoirs!
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
[rires] Je commence à connaître! Les drapeaux, vous en avez fait faire, vous en avez amené au moins quelques-uns à Ottawa avec vous parce qu’on les voit souvent dans vos publications de réseaux sociaux, soit vous ou d’autres membres du mouvement Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Les réseaux sociaux, d’ailleurs, on en a parlé un petit peu; vous étiez quand même, jusqu’à ce qu’on vous l’interdise, vous étiez quand même assez présent, principalement sur Facebook. Vous avez publié beaucoup de vidéos, beaucoup de vidéos en direct qu’on appelle des lives.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Votre chronique, si on peut dire, signature, c’était « Deux minutes sur le bord du poêle ».
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben oui!
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous en avez fait plusieurs pendant le convoi d’Ottawa?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ah, depuis 2017, même.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Depuis 2017?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Spécifiquement au convoi, mais même avant le convoi, vous avez participé à plusieurs manifestations pour dénoncer les mesures sanitaires. Je ne me trompe pas en disant ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben… non, dénoncer les mesures sanitaires…
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je me trompe?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
… je me suis jamais battu contre, non. J’essaie de me battre pour la liberté et la vérité.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Vous avez participé à des manifestations qui étaient associées à des dénonciations des mesures sanitaires en vigueur au Québec?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
On reconnait les Farfadaas comme un mouvement dont certains membres étaient recrutés pour assurer, si on veut, la sécurité ou superviser certains évènements ou manifestations?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non – on fait aucun recrutement, c’est les gens qui viennent vers nous. On marche à l’attrait puis les gens trouvent leur place dans le mouvement; s’ils veulent faire de la sécurité, ils en font.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Mais vous convenez avec moi que dans le passé, on a vu à plusieurs reprises dans des manifestations des gens qui portaient, entre autres, la veste ou le chandail associé aux Farfadaas un peu assurer la sécurité ou un peu regarder le bon déroulement? Il y a même un évènement au Québec qui est quand même bien connu, un incident avec Guy Nantel qui s’était pointé à un évènement à Montréal contre les mesures sanitaires puis plusieurs Farfadaas l’ont encerclé. J’imagine que…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Vous pouvez peut-être me conter votre version de l’évènement parce que moi j’étais là, je pourrais peut-être vous conter la mienne?
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Non non, mais vous reconnaissez qu’il y a eu cet évènement-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, je ne reconnais pas qu’il y a eu cet évènement-là, vous ne m’avez pas raconté l’évènement, vous me racontez ce que vous pensez que vous avez vu dans les médias.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ah, OK. Donc les médias… Donc, vous convenez avec moi que les médias ont rapporté que Guy Nantel a eu des interactions avec des membres, des gens qui portaient des vêtements à l’effigie des Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Qu’est-ce que vous entendez par « interaction »?
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Je vais comprendre que c’est contentieux pour vous, cet évènement-là.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Contentieux?
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous n’êtes pas d’accord avec ce que les médias ont rapporté de cet évènement-là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, parce que c’est pas la vérité.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On se croirait à l’Assemblée nationale!
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Mais il reste quand même – et là, vous l’avez mentionné dans votre interrogatoire – que vous avez eu des interactions avec un tiers qui vous a appelé au début du convoi qui vous a approché pour le compte de Pat King qui cherchait de la sécurité?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui, j’ai déjà répondu à cette question-là, oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Puis de ce que je comprends, vous-même, le 29 janvier, avez publié sur les médias sociaux que Pat King vous avait demandé… Pat King avait demandé aux Farfadaas d’assurer sa sécurité.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Puis vous l’avez redit aussi, encore dans un vidéo publié sur Facebook le 31 janvier, que Pat King se… que quand Pat King se sent insécure, on appelle les Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En fait, c’est une marque de commerce, chez nous, on dit : si vous avez des problèmes, appelez les Farfadaas.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Mais vous reconnaissez avoir dit ça sur Facebook le 31 janvier?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Effectivement.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je veux parler un petit peu de… juste du financement. Vous avez parlé abondamment dans votre interrogatoire principal de l’argent que vous redonniez aux camionneurs à Ottawa. Je veux juste être… puis dans la population en général. Vous avez fait une mention des règles applicables aux organismes de bienfaisance sur combien il faut redonner des dons et combien on peut garder pour des frais administratifs, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
M'hm m'hm.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK, juste mettre quelque chose au clair : les Farfadaas n’ont pas de statut d’organisme de bienfaisance, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Vous personnellement, n’avez pas mis sur pied un organisme de bienfaisance pour encadrer ces œuvres-là que vous faisiez, soit à Ottawa ou ailleurs?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pour le temps que j’ai géré les finances des Farfadaas, j’ai géré ça à mon nom personnel et mes impôts sont à date.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous avez mentionné avoir passé… avoir rencontré plusieurs journalistes pendant que vous étiez… que vous participiez au convoi à Ottawa. Entre autres, vous avez donné une entrevue au 104.7 FM en Outaouais à l’émission du matin, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ça, c’est une entrevue qui a eu lieu le 8 février.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Si vous le dites.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Vous rappelez-vous que Monsieur Langevin, l’animateur, vous poussait pas mal sur qu’est-ce que ça va vous prendre pour partir? Je pense que même ses mots étaient « Qu’est-ce que ça va vous prendre pour que vous accrochiez votre remorque [rires] puis que vous partiez de Gatineau, vous partiez d’Ottawa? ». Vous vous rappelez de ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est vague, là.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
On peut passer l’extrait, si vous le souhaitez.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pourquoi pas?
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. On va… s’il vous plaît, Monsieur le registraire, si on pouvait sortir l’enregistrement POE.DOJ.6012 et je vous demanderais de commencer l’enregistrement à 15 m 26 s, s’il vous plaît.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-vous être beaucoup plus longtemps? Parce que votre temps est déjà écoulé.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je vous demanderais votre indulgence. Écoutez, je vais sauter ça puis je vais aller à un autre sujet puis je vais essayer de compléter le sujet le plus vite possible.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Merci beaucoup. À Ottawa et à Gatineau, vous étiez… vous aviez épousé la ligne de « Hold the line », tenir la ligne; il ne fallait pas que les camionneurs d’Ottawa sur Wellington quittent, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Entre autres, c’est pour ça que vous avez commencé à distribuer de l’argent comptant pour aider les camionneurs, comme vous avez déjà dit?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Puis ce « tenir la ligne » là, ce « hold the line », vous l’avez véhiculé jusqu’au 14 février, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Puis en particulier, pour l’intersection Rideau/Sussex, on rapporte souvent que les Farfadaas se sont opposés aux déplacements des véhicules ou au dégagement de cette voie-là.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je ne sais pas pourquoi vous me ramenez cette intersection-là. J’ai répondu trois fois à cette question-là, je suis pas au courant de ce qui s’est passé.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Alors, quand les policiers disent que les Farfadaas “constantly congregates at this location. The Farfadaas is an identifiable group with their motorcycle jackets”, ils se trompent-tu?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En français, s’il vous plaît.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Ben, je pourrais peut- être vous donner un casque d’écoute. C’est un petit peu difficile. Mais les Farfadaas se rassemblent de façon consistante à Rideau/Sussex; les Farfadaas sont un groupe identifiable avec leurs vestes de motocyclistes.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, si une veste de cuir est automatiquement attribuable à un motocycliste, c’est pas la vérité puisque le plus jeune membre avait deux ans et la plus vieille en avait 96, je pense que c’est une marchette qu’elle avait.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je comprends que vous aviez quand même une veste de cuir avec Farfadaas en arrière en demi-lune, qui était quand même facilement identifiable, n’est- ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Facilement identifiable et attribuable aux motocyclistes, c’est deux choses différentes, Madame.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK, mais au moins aux Farfadaas, c’était facile d’identifier les Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En effet, mais je ne comprends pas pourquoi vous faites un amalgame avec les motocyclistes. Je veux dire, nous autres, on en a des motos pis la majorité des gens qui sont dans les Farfadaas n’en ont pas, il y en a qui roulent en patins à roulettes.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je vous ai simplement lu l’extrait. Quand la police dit que « the focal point of demonstrator activity at Sussex and Rideau were a group known as Farfadaas from Quebec, has completely blocked intersection to vehicular traffic. Farfadaas was uncooperative with the police throughout the day », la police se trompe encore?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
La seule chose que j’ai entendue dans l’extrait que vous avez dit, c’est Sussex et Rideau, ça fait six fois qu’on en parle. Je sais pas quoi dire. Je m’excuse. Je ne sais pas quoi répondre.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Je prenais pour acquis, Monsieur Charland, que vous pouviez comprendre l’anglais parce qu’il y a eu beaucoup d’extraits en anglais qui vous ont été présentés en interrogatoire en chef, mais…
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je pense que le point, c’est que Rideau et Sussex, il aurait répondu – si ce n’est pas une fois, je dirais 15 fois. Alors, je ne pense pas que c’est un bon usage de votre temps, du temps que je vous donne additionnel de répéter les questions dans l’espoir que la réponse va être différente.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Merci.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Dernière série de questions – ça va être court, Monsieur le commissaire. Juste confirmer certaines affaires pour compléter votre témoignage de tout à l’heure. Monsieur Marazzo, vous ne le connaissez pas, vous n’étiez pas au courant de l’entente qu’il a fait avec la Ville pour déplacer les autos, les camions de Rideau/Sussex. Mais le 14 février – puis je veux juste être sûre, vous n’êtes pas au courant non plus d’une entente de tentative de bouger les camions par Chris Barber aux alentours du 14-15 février non plus? OK. Mais ce que…
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Il faut répondre.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Excusez – non, je suis pas au courant.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Mais ce que je comprends par ailleurs, le 14 février, sur Facebook, vous avez publié un texte et qui… ce texte-là disait qu’il n’y avait pas d’entente : « Il n’y a pas d’entente entre les camionneurs d’Ottawa et le ouvernement… » parce que vous n’avez mis de « g », on comprend que c’est le gouvernement.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Le dossier…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, j’étais pas au courant de l’entente… non, c’est tout ce que j’ai dit.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Oui, mais vous avez quand même cru bon et important, le 14 février, de publier sur votre page Facebook « Il y a pas d’entente entre les camionneurs et le gouvernement »?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
De ce qu’on m’avait rapporté, effectivement.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
De qui?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
De camionneurs qui étaient sur le chemin, des camionneurs québécois à qui on parlait.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Et toujours dans le même post, vous dites : « Le dossier Farfadaas/ZB n’est pas réglé… Les deux places ont besoin d’assistance du plus grand nombre de militants ». Et « les deux places », je comprends que c’est ZB, mais aussi les camionneurs situés à Ottawa?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Dernière question – puis encore une fois, c’est juste pour clarifier ce que vous avez dit plus tôt. Vous avez mentionné que c’était la première fois… votre arrestation le 26 janvier dernier, c’était la première fois que vous étiez arrêté par la police.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Si vous voulez la vérité, j’ai déjà été arrêté pis j’ai eu mon pardon il y a de nombreuses années.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
C’est pas de ça que je voulais parler. En fait, il n’y a pas un incident… vous n’êtes pas en ce moment sous le coup d’accusations, encore une fois pour méfait, pour avoir bloqué des voies du tunnel Louis- Hippolyte-Lafontaine à Montréal?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En effet, il faut que je passe en Cour, mais j’ai pas été arrêté.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous n’avez pas été arrêté, mais vous êtes sous le coup des accusations de méfait pour cet incident-là aussi.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Sous le coup des accusations, donc je ne suis pas encore accusé.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Pardon?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Sous le coup des accusations, ça dit que je ne suis pas encore accusé. On s’en va en procès.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Donc ça, ce n’est pas condamné.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
M'hm m'hm.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Mais vous êtes accusé, vous faites l’objet d’accusations pour lesquelles vous allez avoir un procès en janvier 2023, n’est-ce-pas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En effet.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
Vous, votre conjointe, Carole Tardif et Tommy Rioux et André Desfossés sont ou étaient des membres des Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Puis l’évènement du blocage du tunnel, ça s’est produit le 13 mars 2021?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ouais.
Caroline Laverdière, Counsel (GC)
OK. Merci beaucoup, Monsieur le commissaire, pour le temps supplémentaire. Je n’ai plus de questions, Monsieur Charland, merci.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Merci. Bonne fin de journée.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Les organisateurs du convoi?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re going to try this, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you going ahead in French?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m just going to say “no questions” in French. Pas de questions, merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Good in French.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et le Service de police d’Ottawa?
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. I wonder if I could have access to earphones for the witness just because I will be asking my questions in English.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’d like what?
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If the witness could have access to earphones just because I’ll be asking questions in English.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Traduction?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben oui, s’il vous plaît.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On y va.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon. My name is Jessica Barrow, and I’m counsel for the Ottawa Police Service. I just have a couple of questions for you. I believe you went over this a couple of times, but just to be clear, you were not at the intersection of Rideau and Sussex at any time during the course of the events. Is that fair?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Tout ce que j’ai entendu, c’est Rideau-Sussex, fait que ouais… non. De ce que je comprends de l’anglais.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Are you getting the translation?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Là, il y en a trois qui me parlent en même temps! [rires]
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
J’espère que c’est intéressant!
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Apologies. There’s a bit of a delay.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
J’vais prendre la traduction française, s’il vous plaît… parce qu’ils me parlent tous en anglais.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Can you hear me?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui. Ah oui!
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
There we go. Thank you. So I think I have the answer to this question now multiple times, but just to be clear since you didn’t perhaps understand my full question the previous time. You, yourself, were never at the intersection of Rideau and Sussex throughout the events of the convoy. Is that correct?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui, j’ai jamais dit que j’y avais pas été, j’ai sûrement passé là parce qu’on a visité Ottawa à quelques reprises, j’ai sûrement passé sur Rideau/Sussex. Je me rappelle pas c’est quel coin de rue, mais c’est sûrement j’ai passé là. Mais te dire que j’ai été impliqué dans les évènements de Rideau/Sussex, c’est faux, je suis pas impliqué dans rien.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But you weren’t stationed there for any length of time, I think was your evidence; correct?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you wouldn’t -- you wouldn’t have any firsthand knowledge of the behaviour of the protestors that were at that intersection?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you had testified that Farfadaas didn’t necessarily have control over who may have identified themselves as members of Farfadaas. Is that correct?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Comme j’ai déjà dit dans une autre réponse, à la grandeur du mouvement qu’on a, je ne peux pas connaître tout le monde, c’est impossible.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Thank you. And do I have it correct that you were not downtown Ottawa on February 18th and for the weekend that followed February 18th?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui, c’est exact. J’étais pas à Ottawa, on était en train de déménager notre propre campement. D’ailleurs, je me souviens pas si j’ai remis les pieds à Ottawa à partir du 14 février là, c’est vague, mais moi, je pense que j’ai pas retourné après la prise de décision de la Loi des mesures d’urgence parce qu’on avait notre campement à s’occuper. Mais c’est sûr que le 18 j’étais pas là.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. So you have no first- hand knowledge then as to the arrest that occurred on February 18th to 20th in Downtown Ottawa.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, j’étais pas là.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so, more specifically, you don’t have any first-hand knowledge of the behaviour of police officers in the course of those arrests.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pas spécifiquement dans cette arrestation, mais on écoute les médias nous autres aussi, puis on a le témoignage d’amis qui étaient sur place, je sais pas où dans Ottawa, mais on a tous vu les mêmes choses.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But in terms of first-hand knowledge or observations, you don’t have any of that — is that correct?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And you referenced violence on the part of the police. If I were to tell you that no disciplinary and/or criminal charges were filed in relation to members of the Ottawa Police Service, would you have any information to the contrary?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, si c’était moi qui portais les accusations dans le peuple, peut-être que j’en ferais, mais comme c’est pas moi, je veux dire, on a tous été témoins soit par les médias ou soit par la bouche des amis qu’il y a eu des vitres de brisées, qu’il y a des gens qui ont été sortis de force de leur véhicule, on a tous vu dans les médias un cheval qui piétinait dans la foule. Je ne suis pas le seul à avoir vu ça là, j’ai été témoin aussi de voir qu’essé qui s’est passé même si j’avais pas été là. Si y’a pas eu d’accusations de portées, moi, je travaille pas à la Justice là, je suis pas… je peux pas répondre.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So, when you were referring to violence on the part of the police, you were referring either to conversations with friends or to things you’ve seen in the media but not any first-hand observations.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Effectivement, j’étais parti.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, la Police provinciale de l’Ontario.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
(Inaudible) if anyone can hear me, I’m now online. It’s Christopher Diana for the OPP, and I have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous n’avez pas… on ne vous entend pas, y’a des problèmes d’audio.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ça va être en anglais ou en français?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je ne le sais pas. On ne l’entend pas. C’est pas… c’est in français ni anglais, c’est sourdine ou quelque chose. Can you at least hear us? Is that -- Okay, I’m not sure what ---
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Can you hear me now?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I apologize for the inconvenience with my audio. It’s Christopher Diana on behalf o the OPP doing this virtually for the first time, and so I apologize for the inconvenience. No, I have no questions this afternoon. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
S’il vous plait, please. This is not a theatre, c’est pas un théâtre. S’il vous plait, j’ai été très patient et, sincèrement là, si je suis obligé, je vais vider puis vous le regarderez dans la salle de vidéo, puis je sais que c’est pas ce que les gens veulent, mais j’exige qu’il y ait une discipline dans la salle. So, please, I’m asking you to cooperate. If it happens, I’m going to have to ask everyone to leave and you will still watch it for the room by video, and I know that’s not what’s wanted but that’s what I’m going to do. This is a serious matter, it's the equivalent of a court, and I think everyone wants a certain amount of respect for the process. Alors, le prochain, c’est l’avocat pour monsieur Sloly.
CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR Me NIKOLAS DE STEFANO
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Bonjour, Monsieur Charland, Monsieur le commissaire. Je m’appelle Nikolas De Stefano. Je suis avocat pour l’ancien chef de police, Monsieur Sloly.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Mm-mm.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
J’ai juste quelques questions pour… quelques petites questions pour vous. Vous avez témoigné que vous avez beaucoup d’expérience avec des mouvements de protestation, donc pouvez- vous me dire ça fait combien de temps que vous êtes impliqué dans ces sortes de mouvements là?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, ma première participation, je dirais que ça se trouvait dans une conférence en 92 où il était sujet du libre-échange.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
J’ai participé directement à ce niveau-là puis j’ai continué de m’impliquer.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc, vous avez participé à plusieurs manifestations dans votre vie?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
En tant que membre du groupe La Meute auparavant?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Et ensuite, d’autres manifestations avec les Farfadaas?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Vous avez participé à des manifestations en lien avec des mesures sanitaires par le passé?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Par le passé?
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Avant le Convoi de la liberté.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Et quand vous êtes arrivé à Gatineau le 29 janvier, serait-il exact de dire que vous avez remarqué qu’il y avait une atmosphère ou un niveau de support différent qu’avec les autres manifestations auxquelles vous avez pris part?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Différent, non. Je veux dire, nous autres, l’atmosphère a toujours été bonne dans nos manifestations, on a toujours été… eu des bonnes relations avec les services de police qu’on faisait affaire.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Je vais poser la question de manière différente. Je voulais juste dire l’ampleur de la manifestation était plus grande que les autres manifestations auxquelles vous avez fait partie?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est certain. C’est une ampleur sans précédent.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
C’est du jamais vu pour vous?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Non, vous êtes d’accord avec moi que c’est du jamais vu?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est du jamais vu.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait. Merci. Vous avez même témoigné avant que vous étiez… je l’ai pas noté de manière exacte là, donc vous me corrigerez si je n’ai pas bien noté, mais que vous aviez été surpris du support que votre groupe avait quand vous vous dirigiez vers Ottawa.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui. On a été agréablement surpris, oui, parce qu’on s’est rendu compte comment qu’il y avait de gens derrière le mouvement, puis on le voit pas souvent, qui étaient prêts à nous aider en apportant des denrées, du bois, ou encore même nous amener de l’argent ou… oui. On a eu beaucoup de support.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc, vous serez d’accord avec moi que vous-même ne vous attendiez pas à avoir autant de support, autant de gens, autant de ressources en date du 29 janvier?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Absolument.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Quand vous êtes arrivé à Gatineau, vous avez négocié avec la GRC pour passer à Ottawa, vous avez dit ça là. Vous êtes d’accord?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Vous avez discuté également avec le Service de police de la Ville de Gatineau qui vous ont instruit de parler à la GRC. Avez-vous négocié avec eux en anglais ou en français?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En français.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Mais vous parlez un peu anglais, si je ne m’abuse?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Un peu, mais je préfère mieux ma langue maternelle pour être bien compris et bien vous comprendre.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Je comprends. Quand vous avez négocié avec les membres de la GRC, vous leur aviez indiqué que vous vouliez vous rendre à Ottawa pour manifester de manière pacifique.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Et une fois à Ottawa, vous avez… est-ce que vous avez été témoin de débordements de la part de manifestants, pas nécessairement des membres des Farfadaas, mais juste des manifestants?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Non?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Écoute, la ville était propre, les gens se ramassaient, c’était festif, toutes les cultures se mélangeaient… c’était festif.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc, aucun manque de respect envers les gens d’Ottawa?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Aucune intimidation?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Monsieur le greffier, est- ce qu’on pourrait avoir le document PB NSC CAN, six fois le numéro zéro, 89.
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, could you please repeat that document ID for my benefit?
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
PB NSC CAN, six zeros 89. And can we zoom in on that screenshot of the Facebook post, please? Donc ça c’est un document qui a été produit par la GRC, circulé à des services de police. On voit ici un extrait d’une publication Facebook. Can we scroll up a little bit, please? Just so that I can see the text above the Facebook post, sorry. Malheureusement, la personne qui a écrit… le nom de la personne qui a écrit cette publication-là a été caviardée, mais c’est une publication qui s’adresse aux membres des Farfadaas. Est-ce qu’on le descendre un peu s’il vous plait ? Je veux juste lire un extrait. L’auteur… premièrement, avez-vous déjà vu cette publication-là ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est moi qui l’a écrit.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
C’est vous qui l’avez écrit, OK.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc, vous indiquez : « Il y a une seule autorité utile chez les Farfadaas. Le respect. »
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
« Je sais que je n’ai pas été un exemple dernièrement, mais je m’excuse. » Donc quand vous écrivez que vous n’avez pas été un exemple de respect dernièrement, est-ce que c’est en lien avec les démonstrations, ou les… oui, les démonstrations à Ottawa ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. C’est en lien avec nos discussions à l’interne.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
OK, parfait. Donc, on a entendu plusieurs témoignages ici, qu’il y avait des comportements irrespectueux, de l’intimidation et même de la violence, et vous dites, vous n’êtes pas d’accord avec aucun de ces témoignages-là ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait. Eum…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Pas de notre part en tout cas.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait. Deux ou trois autres petites questions. Vous avez témoigné auparavant, je n’ai pas l’annotation exacte, mais que vous n’avez pas le contrôle sur les Farfadaas au complet. Parce que c’est plus un mouvement qu’un groupe.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On a tenté d’encadrer les Farfadaas qui étaient sur les lieux, mais effectivement, on ne peut pas avoir le contrôle ou d’encadrer tout ce qui existe de Farfadaas à l’époque de Gatineau.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc vous seriez d’accord avec moi pour dire que les Farfadaas ne parlent (l'audio coupe) d’une seule voix.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Qu’ils ne parlent pas d’une seule voix ?
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Oui.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
En effet.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Donc, il serait impossible pour un membre d’un service policier de négocier, par exemple avec vous, pour le groupe ou le mouvement au complet.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh… dans la mesure du possible, j’essaie.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Vous essayez, mais il serait possible pour vous de faire un accord avec la police, exemple, au nom de tous les Farfadaas de quitter un stationnement ou de quitter la ville d’Ottawa.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben oui, on l’a fait.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Et tous, et chaque membre des Farfadaas a suivi votre… vos instructions ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je ne pense pas, non. Nous autres, on a quitté le stationnement qu’on devait quitter et tout le monde est retourné chez eux. Mais je sais qu’il y avait encore des gens qui s’affichent Farfadaas à Ottawa. Oui.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Parfait, merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, prochain ce sont les résidents d’Ottawa.
CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR Me PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Merci Commisionner. Si c’est correct, je peux poser mes questions ici. Bon après-midi, Monsieur Charland je suis l’avocat pour la coalition des résidents et des entreprises d’Ottawa.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
M’mm.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Je suis désolé, mais je vais poser mes questions en anglais, comme mon ami M. Barber, je viens de la Saskatchewan et je ne parle pas bien en français.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je trouve que ça va bien, moi. (Rires)
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M. Charland, I just want to know, you mentioned -- pardon. J’attend. Mr. Charland, you testified earlier that you had heard from Mr. King or from friends of Mr. King that he wanted some assistance for security. Is that right?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And do you know what he needed security for? Why was he in danger or why would he require security?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
De ce qu’on m’avait rapporté, c’est qu’il recevait des menaces puis il n’avait plus de place à coucher puis il se cherchait une place à coucher en sécurité parce qu’il avait beaucoup de menaces à travers ses réseaux.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He was threatened by whom; by the police?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Pas par les policiers, mais on ne sait pas par qui exactement, sur les réseaux sociaux, il se passe tellement de choses là.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. It was a bit dangerous in downtown Ottawa at that time. Is that fair to say?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. C’était pas au centre- ville d’Ottawa, il n’était pas encore arrivé à Ottawa. C’était une journée avant son arrivée puis il se cherchait une place à coucher en dehors d’Ottawa.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so then did you assist him in finding a place where he could stay safetly?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je l’ai mis en contact avec des gens de l’endroit, puis c’est eux qui se sont occupés de ça.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so then did you ever meet with him or speak with him during the course of the demonstration?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you attend at the -- I’m sorry. I’m not sure how it would be called in French, but the bikers’ church in Vanier in Ottawa.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You know that place? L’église de -- non?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Charland. Those are all the questions I have.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Prochain c’est le CCLA.
CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR Me EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Oui. Bonjour, Monsieur Charland. Mon nom est Ewa Krajewska, je ne sais pas si vous me voyez sur l’écran ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ah ! Oh !
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Oui. Donc je vais vous poser mes questions par Zoom. Je suis avocate pour l’Association canadienne des libertés civiles.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
D’accord.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Monsieur Charland, je vais vous poser des questions à propos des restrictions qui ont été mises sur vos comptes bancaires.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Je comprends qu’en chef, vous avez dit que vos comptes bancaires à la Banque Nationale, il y avait des restrictions qui étaient mises sur eux, c’est correct ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous aviez des comptes bancaires personnels et corporatifs avec la Banque Nationale ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Euh oui. J’avais mon compte personnel, puis on avait un compte corporatif, moi et ma conjointe, oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que les deux comptes ont reçu des restrictions ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, ils n’ont pas touché au compte corporatif.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Seulement votre compte bancaire personnel.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui. Parce que dans mon compte bancaire personnel, je transigeais pour les Farfadaas.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
C’est là où vous gériez l’argent des Farfadaas, c’est ça ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et quand… c’était quand que ce compte a reçu des restrictions ? Est-ce que vous avez la date ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je pense que ça devrait être le 4 février, puis c’est cette date-là qu’on a commencé à avoir des problèmes puis qu’on a décidé de déléguer puis que ça serait plus moi qui va s’occuper de toute ça. Je pense, mais je peux me tromper de la date là.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Vous pensez que c’était le 4 février.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je pense.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des restrictions supplémentaires après le 14 février ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. J’ai reçu une lettre au mois d’avril pour me dire qu’ils fermaient mon compte personnel.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
OK. Et avant que vous… et cette lettre que vous avez reçue en avril, c’était une lettre de la Banque Nationale, oui ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des communications avant cette lettre de la Banque Nationale à propos de votre compte ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des communications à propos de votre compte, de la Gendarmerie Royale Canadienne ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous avez reçu des informations à propos de votre compte, du Centre d’analyse des opérations et déclarations financières du Canada ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Est-ce que vous connaissez, autre que la lettre que vous avez reçue de la Banque Nationale, les causes pourquoi votre compte a été… a reçu des restrictions ?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non. Les gens qui ont communiqué avec moi pour… en avril, j’ai pas été capable d’avoir de réponse.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Puis ils fermaient mon compte.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Et, je comprends qu’aujourd’hui vous n’avez pas de compte avec la Banque Nationale et que vous avez dû ouvrir un compte avec une autre Banque, ou une autre caisse populaire.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Charland. Ce sont toutes mes questions.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bon, le prochain c’est Democracy Fund (l'audio coupe).
Pas de questions pour ce témoin, merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Alors Monsieur St- Pierre.
Nicolas St-Pierre, Counsel (Steeve Charland)
Merci, Monsieur le Commissaire, je n’ai aucune question.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. D’autres questions par…
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Aucune question, Monsieur le Commissaire. Merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Si je peux juste demander une couple de questions, Monsieur Charland. Juste pour partir où on a fini votre compte qui a été… il y a eu des restrictions, ce qui a réduit votre limite…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ils ont réduit ma limite de transactions journalières, ils appellent ça un transit là, je ne pouvais pas retirer autant et je ne pouvais pas déposer un chèque puis le retirer tout de suite.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
C’est des privilèges que j’avais dans le passé vu 30 ans…
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
…d’échanges commerciaux, je les ai perdus, y’en a qui ont été diminués de moitié.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis personne vous a parlé de ça, c’est juste arrivé, c’est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et vous aviez mentionné — puis peut-être j’ai mal compris puis c’est pour ça que je vous le demande — quelque chose… quand on vous parlait de violence, vous avez parlé des policiers qui ont… la violence, et vous avez mentionné un autre groupe, c’était-tu Antifa ou…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est quoi, ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Le Groupe Antifa, ça existe un peu partout en Amérique depuis plusieurs années, on en a entendu parler beaucoup dans le temps qu’on militait au sein de La Meute, c’est des gens qui sont contre les groupes identitaires, contre les regroupements qu’on a faits pendant les évènements d’Ottawa. Ça nous a été rapporté par des truckers qui ne connaissaient pas ça, qui sont venus me poser des questions parce qu’ils disaient que les gens ont revendiqué que c’est les Antifa qui faisaient ça. Ils ont coupé des housses de truck, ils ont vandalisé certaines choses, ils ont dessoufflé des pneus, puis ils ont eux-mêmes revendiqué que c’était les Antifa, un groupe de protestation eux autres aussi, mais un petit peu plus radical que nous autres, disons.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, il y a… est-ce que vous avez, vous, vu des membres d’Antifa ou des activités d’Antifa de vos propres…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
J’ai pas été témoin de mes propres yeux, non.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non. Alors, c’était des rapports que vous avez eus…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…de violence…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…qui se passait.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de comprendre aussi, vous, je pense vous aviez un Winnebago, c’est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis où était-il stationné?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Dans le stationnement appartenant à Zibi à Gatineau.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous faisiez la navette à Ottawa?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
À pied.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
À pied?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Mm-mm.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et puis, alors, quel était votre… si je peux… je ne veux pas vous donner des titres là, mais quel était votre rôle quand vous étiez à Ottawa quand vous faisiez la traversée?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, on m’avait attribué le titre depuis longtemps de porte-parole du mouvement.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous étiez là pour représenter le mouvement, c’est ça?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis pour vous, je pense, votre groupe, si je peux l’appeler… parce qu’il semblerait qu'il y ait un… je veux pas rentrer sur Rideau-Sussex là, rassurez- vous, le…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
<Rires> S’il vous plait!
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Le groupe que vous aviez monté Rideau, mais… est-ce qu’il y a un… quelque identification de jusqu’où vous vous êtes rendu sur Rideau?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Ben, écoutez, nous autres, le but de nos opérations, c’était de tenir le campement dans le stationnement Zibi afin d’offrir bouffe et nourriture et stationnement aux gens de l’extérieur qui voulaient venir se stationner sécuritairement et aller à la manifestation. Par la suite, on avait notre kiosque de bouffe sur Wellington qui était tenu par des Farfadets, et on s’occupait des truckers. Mais c’est certain que les membres du mouvement Farfadets se sont promenés partout, c’était vraiment une ambiance festive, ça allait… c’est allé rencontrer des gens partout. Il y a sûrement passé des Farfadets partout où il y avait des truckers.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, non, je revenais à quand vous avez fait la traversée du pont.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Macdonald-Cartier, vous avez dit qu’ils vous ont dirigé, je pense, sur la rue Rideau.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez été aussi loin que possible.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de voir quel site ou comment est-ce qu’on peut identifier jusqu’à quel point le groupe auquel tu étais associé s’est rendu.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Mm. C’est difficile à dire, surtout je suis pas de la région puis je me rappelle pas du coin de la rue là, mais on est allé vraiment en arrière des camions qui étaient déjà stationnés là, les policiers nous ont amenés, ils nous ont escortés jusque-là, ils ont dit « ça s’arrête ici, on ne peut pas aller plus loin ». Nous autres, on a retourné à nos occupations puis on a laissé les propriétaires de truckers là.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis vous, lors de cette arrivée-là, étiez-vous à la tête, étiez-vous dans un véhicule ou est-ce que c’est du ouï-dire quand on vous dit qu’est-ce qui est arrivé? Parce que vous, votre Winnebago était encore…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Non, j’étais à pied, je faisais partie de la marche qui est allée reconduire les camionneurs.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Oui.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Ensuite… puis je veux juste confirmer, les interactions que vous auriez eues avec des policiers, je ne parle pas de ceux sur le pont puis je ne parle pas de ceux à Gatineau, mais soit des interactions ou des observations que vous avez faites de la police quand vous étiez à Ottawa à faire vos… votre… je le sais pas quoi, ambassadeur…
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je faisais du PR.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…représentant, PR, quelle interaction avez-vous eue avec la police?
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
On s’est envoyé la main, on s’est dit bonjour, on les a remerciés pour leurs services, puis ils nous ont remerciés pour notre pacifisme. Ça s’est résumé à ça.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Parfait. Alors, ça, c’était les questions que j’avais. Je vous remercie de votre témoignage et d’être venu, et puis vous être libre de partir.
Steeve Charland (Farfadaas)
Je vous remercie.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors là, je pense que je vais prendre la pause d’après-midi et on va prendre 15 minutes et ensuite on va revenir avec notre prochain témoin. So we’ll take our afternoon break for 15 minutes, and come back with the next witness.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 3:52 p.m.
Upon resuming at 4:10 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Your mic’s not on.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’m sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
The next witness is Ms. Brigitte Belton, who is here with her legal representative, Ms. Jane Scharf, who I understand wants to address you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Scharf? It’s your choice. You can do it from there or come up to the front. As long as you can be heard and recorded.
STATEMENT BY MS. JANE SCHARF
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. I have a few requests to make at the outset. Brigitte needs more time. She’s been allocated an hour; I think an hour and 15 minutes. She was one of the persons who initiated the convoy; she participated all the way through, and she has a lot of information about the organization element, and it’s insufficient amount of time. So that’s the first request. The second request is she has severe dyslexia and she -- we didn’t get sufficient time to deal with the numbering and documentation. So we have a person here, Rebecca Sheppard, who has her documentation ready, and she can quote the numbers that need to be advised about what to bring up. And, also, I want to request that I ask the questions of my client because other witnesses are having their own counsel ask questions. We find it unfair; unreasonable for her to have to structure her statement according to questions given by somebody that doesn’t know her case. And I also want an opportunity to question -- I would like to question many different witnesses that were up there, but I’m only asking at this time to question Keith Wilson, because he’s submitted a statement from an interview that he did on October 20th, and it discusses James Bauder and Brigitte Beldon, and they need an opportunity to question him about that information, and that’s all the requests. And then I have two objections. The first objection is this counsel -- or, sorry; this Commission was struck under section 63(1), and it requires Order in Council, which is the entire Cabinet, and only -- it was only based on the recommendation of Justin Trudeau. So that is a problem considering he’s the subject of the Inquiry and he’s calling it. As well, I’m understanding that Bill Blair set it up, so he chose yourself and whoever else is -- are significant administrators in this process. We find that that’s unreasonable considering these are the people that are being investigated, so they should not be setting up this process. And the Chair should not have been somebody that was selected from the Liberal camp, so to speak. And the other objection is the Inquiry is focusing on the grounds, whether there was sufficient grounds to call the Emergency Act, and this is, in my view, moot because the Emergency Act was also not invoked legally, according to section 17(1) which required an Order in Council, which would have been the entire Cabinet. The only time the Executive is allowed to make Order in Council without going through Cabinet is in an emergency. So they had to at least initiate the process through the Cabinet; that wasn’t done. So all of this, in my view, seems moot because if it wasn’t legal out of the gate, there’s the main issue. And that’s it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that’s a good list. We haven’t had a list like that in any case. So let me try and address them. Firstly, you may not know but I’m not in the Liberal camp. I’ve been a judge for 20 years, so that’s just a fact.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Who were you appointed by?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I was appointed by the government, as you know.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
By the Liberal Government?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not here to be cross- examined. I’m sorry; that’s not how it works.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- but I’m just giving you a fact. But, having said that, you of course can object to the Commission, how it was set up. That’s something I can’t do anything about. That’s something you would deal with in the Federal Court, and you’re certainly free to do that. In fact, I believe there are other parties who are in the Federal Court attacking the Emergencies Act, and I believe there’s also someone in Court today attacking one of my -- one of the subpoenas. So that’s something, if you think I’m not properly constituted, obviously that’s something you can pursue with it. There’s nothing I can do about that. In terms of your four questions. The objective here is to get the testimony that the public wants as to how this all developed. I think your client is -- we’ve heard, was very involved in it, and the Commission would like to hear her evidence. Obviously, how that’s going to happen, I said earlier today -- you weren’t here -- that because of the nature of these questions and the nature of what witnesses like Ms. Belton have, I will be flexible about time because ultimately what we’re after is getting a proper representation from the people as to what happened, why it happened. So I can’t say more than that except that that’s what our objective is, and we will be flexible for time. In terms of help, of course if she needs help, that’s something which, quite frankly, we’re more than sympathetic about. We want the help needed, if she needs it to get the documents out and to get the story out. That’s what this whole Commission is about, is about trying to get the information out. In terms of you questioning her, of course you can question her. It’s not -- it’s provided in the Rules. It will just come at the end, and how long, you’ll help guide us as to what’s needed. Our expectation is and Commission Counsel, if you have been following the Commission, has been very good to let the witnesses tell their story. Because we’re not here to try and push one line or the other. I think if you were here for the earlier witnesses today, they’re here to tell the story; Commission counsel will help bring it out. But of course you’re entitled to, as Ms. Belton’s counsel, to make sure if we’ve missed something, to allow her to do it. In terms of questioning other witnesses, all I could suggest is at the end of the day, you speak to Commission Counsel as to issues that you think Commission should pursue because, again, same objective; whether it’s this witness or any other witness, we want the story to come out. So that’s my best answer for your questions, your objections. As I say, I can do little about them. Federal Court might be happy to deal with it, might not. I leave that to you. So that’s my response. I’d like to be able to get on with Ms. Belton’s evidence, if I can. But I just want to hear if that’s -- if that’s agreeable.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, I’ve been allotted 10 minutes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, as I say, I will be flexible for that, and if you want more time, I’ll give you more time.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I do want more time. I want a lot more time. I would like to question her throughout.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
And we need more than an hour.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
So, I mean, that’s -- I mean, I’m just putting it out there, that’s ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So can we proceed?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
One other thing. I did speak to Mr. Mather regarding Keith William’s statement and where it’s problematic, and he said to defer this issue to you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, and I think he was deferring to me whether you could question, and as I've said, that’s not the way we operate. But if you speak to either Mr. Mather or to Mr. Leon, they can make sure the concerns, to the degree they're relevant as evidence, can be brought out, because obviously, we want to make sure the issues that are important to the Commission and to the public are ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
The other counsel are invited to ask questions to these witnesses. I can't.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I understand that.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
And I'm just asking for one, not all.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
And that should be fair, okay? Let her have one.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry. That’s not the way it works. It is not the process, but I'm trying to accommodate you. That’s the best I can do.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
So are we going to allow Rebeca to assist?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think what -- I think it's for documents ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- as I understand the issue? So when it comes to a question of documents, we'll sort it out, either have her come up or have whatever.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
That’s not going to work. She's got to go get set up and organize the paperwork so that she can pass the numbers that need to be given to bring up the documents. They can't just ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
--- do that. I can refer to them by the name that I sent them to, but you re-numbered all of them, so ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
--- if you can't find them, then ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We'll sort it out.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay, great.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I appreciate that, and believe me, the numbers -- the system has been very good, but it's not simple. I need help. But we will help for that, and you can refer to the document, and when you refer, we'll find it. We may take a minute, may take five minutes, but we're all here for the same objective, I hope. Is that okay?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah, that seems fine.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So perhaps we can have the witness sworn and get started.
MS. BRIGITTE BELTON, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEFFREY LEON
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you for being here, Ms. Belton. Let me just by way of introduction -- and I think you understand this -- but I just want to make sure that the -- you understand the way the process works -- I have, as you know, an hour and 15 minutes to ask you questions. As the Commissioner stated, he's going to be flexible with that. Then the other lawyers here have the same amount of time to ask you questions, that’s all the lawyers together, not each one of them, or we'd be here for a long time. And then as you've heard, your legal representative will then be able to ask you questions. My objective is to ask you questions so that you can tell your story about the Freedom Convoy and the role you played in it. If I miss anything, I hope to give you the opportunity to say so, and we'll try and deal with all of the points that you have. If you don’t understand anything that I ask you, don’t hesitate to ask me and to clarify it. And if I can just start by asking you, the documents that you have in front of you, are those the documents that you provided to the Commission (audio skip)?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just for reference.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So can we start off with you telling the Commission a bit about your background? Were you born in Ontario?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I was born in Ontario. I was baptized at Saint Peter's Lutheran Church on Bay Street. I lived in Toronto for 16 years, but would travel holidays back to Ottawa for my grandparents, who were -- immigrated here with my mom from Germany. And I grew up pretty normal, I guess, and moved when I was 16 to Ottawa over a man and had three wonderful children and moved back after my divorce to the Toronto area and became a truck driver.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And where do you live now?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I live in a very small place called Wallaceburg, Ontario, and it is a border community. All truck traffic goes southbound.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And is that close to Sault Ste. Marie? Have I got the geography right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that’s a little further north. I'm probably smack dab in between Windsor and Sarnia.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And just in terms of the year, when did you start working as a truck driver?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In -- just on December -- I believe it was 19th I got my licence.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
December 19 of what year?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Of 2014.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And of 2015 on February 6th, I started driving for Schneider National, which is no longer in Canada after the mandates came in.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I see. And after -- at some point, did you start driving as an independent?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. We got essential, meant essential, my husband and I. He resurrected his business that had been stale for about two and a half years. We bought a truck from Manitoba and was preparing to grow a trucking company. We were hoping to provide Canada with a Landstar option style company, as Canada doesn’t have that for owner- operators. We were hoping to grow this over the next few years. We took possession of the truck in October of 2021 -- or September, I think it was, 2021, and we signed -- finally got signed on with Landstar in October of 2021. And from there, we really honestly didn’t think the government would change the definition of essential to only when necessary.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Can I make an objection? This line of questioning wasn’t in your set of issues. You were looking for her background that caused her to make a decision to pursue the convoy. That was one of -- in the list, you weren’t looking for detail, you know, history. That’s taking up a lot of time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Well, I think it's just, we're trying to get the story out. I -- there's -- you can't really object to her telling ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, that’s why I wanted to ask the questions, so we wouldn't waste any of the hour.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, we will try not to waste time, and if we work together on that, I'm sure we'll get to the end.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, let's get started.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, let's come to November 16, 2021. I take it you were driving into Canada from the United States with a load on on that day?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I was.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you had, I think, what you have described as an extremely unpleasant interaction with a border officer, Canadian border officer, correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Windsor is typically a very hard, difficult border to cross, regardless of mandates. Once the mandates came in, they were unreasonable, and it was not the first issue with Windsor, it was the second issue with Windsor, and the third incident with CBSA during the COVID years.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And immediately after that encounter, you posted a TikTok video about your experience; is that ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was locked in their compound, not allowed to leave when I posted that video. I was afraid that I was going to be taken away by Windsor Police. I thought that time was the time they were finally going to take a truck that they did not own, take a load that did not belong to them, take my dog and euthanize him, and take me to jail. That’s what I thought that night. And I was done with CBSA. I was done with the crap Canada was going through and I was definitely done with the behaviour of Canadians.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay, can we move, then -- and I’d like show to show the video, if that’s okay. It’s COM00000589.
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, could we have a brief minute while we’re loading that video, please?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Let me -- while we’re getting the video loaded -- at that point, were you an active user of TikTok?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Actually, not really. I think it’s maybe my fourth video on TikTok. I had been repeatedly put in Facebook jail. I guess most of us now, in my situation, use that as a badge. I think one of my comments was something about somebody eating crayons and I got banned for 33 days. So this was probably a double hit on this one. I think it was 55 days total at this time that I was being restricted from reaching out to my community on Facebook so I had taken to TikTok. I thought it was just really people just running along cars and jumping and singing but it was so much more.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, you know more about it than I do, so. And then were you -- so you were on other social media like Facebook as well?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I was on Facebook. Again, I was censored on Facebook. My first real big censor on there was when I had explained to people that Florida was never closed, that the only blockade for people getting in and out of Florida was on I-96, that I-75 and I-10 were wide open because I had been there. But our reporters here were telling people they couldn’t get to Florida, which was total BS. Everybody could go in and out and the only restriction was on I-96, and I believe it was only for New York Residents at that time.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay, well, let’s watch the video then.
The Registrar (POEC)
If I could just please have the number again, counsel. If I could please have the document ID again, please, counsel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Oh, I’m sorry, COM00000589. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, could you tell the Commissioner what impact this incident had on you going forward?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right from that night, the first impact was noticed as my husband was asking me to stop; I actually passed three truck stops not even realizing I had passed them on the 401 eastbound. When I finally pulled in the Flying J in London, it was full; there was no parking. London police are known for ticketing trucks, so I left. On my exit from the London truck stop, you get to a dead-end and you have to turn right. On that right turn, I did not see a minivan and I nearly killed the people in that minivan on that night. I pulled out. I proceeded down the highway and I stopped at the very next stop. I realized at that point, I was -- I was just over the moon upset. I stopped at the Husky and I pulled in the back and I said goodbye to my husband. I told him, “I’m done.” I couldn’t do it. I told PEOC when they called me that night on the phone that I was done. I told the Wiley driver that came up to console me I was done. I couldn’t live that way anymore. Every time I came back into Canada, we couldn’t buy clothes. We couldn’t buy supplies to work. We worked eight months with no sanitizer, no facemasks, nothing. We had no bathrooms. We had no showers. We were refused everywhere we went. You have no idea what it’s like to pee in a park on your way home from work because nobody -- “nobody”, meaning Subway -- in Chatham would let me use their bathroom and I just delivered a frozen of Subway bread. It was the same store I was supporting and they wouldn’t let me use their bathroom. You have no idea how demeaning those Covid measures were to our industry and yet I felt it my duty to support Canadians and bring you the goods and services that many hoarded.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And if we can move forward, it was later that week that the Canadian Government announced that a vaccine mandate would be introduced effective January 15 for people coming over the border, including commercial truckers; I’m sure you recall that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I remember the smugness of our Prime Minister.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did that mean for your ability to work as a trucker?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would mean that the truck that my husband just purchased would go bankrupt. At that time, JBT -- I had gone to that trucking company looking for Canadian-only loads and to move the truck -- his company truck over to JBT. We were refused because of a vaccine mandate. We were also looking for companies even just to drive. The rate had dropped from approximately 50 to 60 cents/mile to 38 cents/mile. It was slave labour. We then -- and that was for Canadian-only. And Canadian-only loads, I have to tell you, between Ontario into Manitoba are some of the worst roads you’ll ever drive. There are no places to stop. Nobody cares about the people up in Northern Ontario and yet truckers do it every day and it’s a death highway. It’s a death trap.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And -- sorry.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So during all of that, there was very little solution for our truck. It would mean bankruptcy of the company.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take it that shortly after that, you came up with an idea for a convoy, a protest convoy; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, and my husband and Chris Barber both told me convoys never work. They just never had a woman do it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So what was your idea?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The idea was actually to work like CBSA. CBSA had a strike during COVID. They felt they didn't have enough money or enough benefits. They left truck drivers sit on the bridges. I was lucky I was only there for the two hours without food, fuel or a bathroom. Friend of mine was there for 14 hours stuck in the backup and the backlog from the CBSA. So I thought, well, if CBSA can disrupt our country and be just fine, and have a settlement within 24 to 48 hours, truck drivers could do the same. We'll just follow CBSA's lead, and that's what we did.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And am I right that it was shortly after that that you came into contact with Chris Barber?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I had been trying throughout the month of December, especially the more that our Prime Minister hit the airwaves threatening Canadians with consequences, his favourite word, I kept continuing, looking on Tik Tok because I found out you could use the search bar and put in truckers and find truckers, and I put into their comment bars: Convoy 2022, Convoy 2022. And I just kept going until somebody responded and thank God for Chris Barber.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you ultimately get in touch with Mr. Barber?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We did. We touched base. I believe our first exchange was on or about the 1st of January or 2nd, on or about the 2nd of January where he agrees, and I build a flyer and we go from there.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now I'd like to show you what I believe to be a copy of that flyer. The document number is COM00000869. And I take it you posted this on your Tik Tok in early January?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes --- (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Join a convoy to end mandates. It says please contact Kathy. Who is Kathy?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Kathy was our Calgary -- it says right there Calgary. She was our Calgary road captain, leader, organizer.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So at this point, had you already started to identify organizers and road captains?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It happened overnight. Once Chris and I started taking to the airwaves, it literally exploded overnight.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And it says at the bottom, "January 23rd we slow roll..." I think it's ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It should be every.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
"...every province until mandates stop."
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So what was your plan?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Our plan was to slow roll in place, not necessarily block borders. That was never the plan. It was to slow traffic, be a nuisance, but be within our legal rights to protest.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And the -- you said that it all happened very fast. What were the things that you and Mr. Barber were doing to make it happen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Putting information such as this out on Tik Tok with our email address, our phone numbers. Both Chris and I had conversations regarding how much our phone was ringing and we had no time for anything else. I would frequently stay up until three a.m. answering text messages, emails, messages through Tik Tok for information. I'd been contacted from the Yukon, from Nunavut, from B.C. through to Newfoundland.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take -- I understand that, at some point, your original plan shifted to a convoy of trucks to Ottawa; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I mean, the idea never shifted. It was always for the mandates. I received a message from the Women's Federation of Trucking, and Shelly is a friend of my husband's, has been for quite some time. They've done cancer convoys together. She had contacted me with Mr. Bauder's convoy information, and I remember saying to her, "Those are my dates. I'm going to have to call him and tell him to change his dates." I wasn't planning on working together. However, James is a good salesperson, and he told me he had a lot of resources. He had done a convoy before, and that we could work together.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so had you known Mr. Bauder before?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did he tell you about a prior convoy that he had organized?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He just told me he had a convoy.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you know anything about his social media presence at that point?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not really. I have gone back through my emails. Somebody had asked me to sign it, his MOU, basically gave me a rundown of what it was, and I went over and I signed it just as support. I've never read the full document.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And is he a trucker himself?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no proof he isn't.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now at some point, you also got together with Pat King?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the same time actually.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How did ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Who arranged that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was talking with James regarding the dates and him offering a whole bunch of support. And he had mentioned that Pat King was trying to get a hold of me. I'm, like, "Who's Pat King?" And we did a three-way call to connect.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that was in early January?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
January 12th.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then the next night you were part of a Facebook Live streamed event that Mr. King hosted?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you were there, Mr. Bauder, Mr. Barber, and there were a few others as well.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, there were.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you talk about as a group? What was the discussion like?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do know that it was being presented to the other convoy, who I would say the core group of the leadership, Dale, Joe, myself and Chris, whether we were going to work together, what was being put on the table, and of course, our silly truck driver selves was mixed into there. So it was just a basic, you know, are we going to do this as a group or are we not, and I believe the consensus was that we were. I believe it was Joe that spoke up first that said, "I guess we're going to Ottawa."
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And Joe, do you recall his last name?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Jensen.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And Dale?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Evans? That's kind of with a question mark on the end of it. I believe that's his last name.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so at this point in time, what stage was the plan at? Was it ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we were growing very, very fast. Pat King had a huge media presence, so he claimed. His claim is true. And that helped us reach out to more people. James Bauder also had a huge media presence, which helped us reach even more people. At the time convoy started I had less than a thousand followers, I was new to TikTok. Chris had explosive numbers. I think he was in the 160s; I can't give an exact number. So these gentlemen had the numbers to get going. I had the passion, the drive, and the heart.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take it at that point you hadn't reviewed either Mr. Bauder's or Mr. King's past social media posts?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I don't typically go spy on people.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And had you did you do that subsequently?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not really. I like to judge people on how they behave with me or to me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, at this Facebook Live event it was reported that 3,000 people tuned in. Did you -- were you familiar with that number?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm going to take your word for it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that towards the outset of the -- this meeting, Mr. King introduced you as one of the organisers who was handling the Ontario section. Was that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. I'm from southwestern Ontario. I believe I also expressed I would be doing Sarnia as my own personal, but I dealt directly with ADT Truckers, the Yonkers, David Steinberg, Steenberg, sorry Dave, and a whole lot of others, Mike and Andrew, throughout Ontario. Ontario being my home, it gave me the ability to grow faster in the area. They knew out in the western provinces, so they had their connections there.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I would like to object again. We were told there was several topics that you were going to introduce and leave it open-ended for her to present her information or testimony, and it's not, it's being led, and there's a lot of information here that is not critical for such a short amount of time. She has some very important information that she intends or wants to put out there and it's not coming out, and he's -- and we asked for questions, and they said "Oh, it's not questions, it's a list of topics", and they gave us the topics and said it was going to be open-ended for her to testify under those topics. But that's not what's happening here.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is there a problem with the questioning, Ms. Belton, or are you okay with the way it's going? Is there a problem?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As long as we get the time to get all the information out we can go forward.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And by that point in time, we saw that I think you already had your departure date set as January 23rd for your convoy?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was set prior to even Chris Barber agreeing. I was going forward whether he agreed or not. I was just lucky that it was him that did agree.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And had you planned your route?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a very good idea of what the Sarnia would look like. I understood a lot of the geographics of the highways throughout Canada, I've driven them for quite sometime. I did realise that some routes we couldn't get close enough to the border that we would have to push back into the city centres just so that we could keep rolling and not block things, we could actually get around in a loop. So those were all coming into play and they were all thought of. There was no intention to block anything, just to slow things down and just be a nuisance I guess. To be heard, to be seen.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes. And in the same Facebook Live presentation, I understand that Mr. Bauder discussed Operation Bear Hug. Were you familiar with that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, that -- well, I'm familiar with the term, I'm familiar with James Bauder, and James Bauder can talk about his bear hug. I don't know his in and out workings, that's his organisation.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Have you ever been involved in the Canada Unity organisation?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was on a Live where James probably, and I accepted two t-shirts and two stickers, maybe one sticker, but I think there were two.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And a keychain.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you've already told us about your signing the MOU without reading it. In that same Facebook Live meeting, do you recall Mr. Bauder discussing his MOU?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I kind of roll my eyes when James talks about the MOU, to be honest.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall that Mr. King, in the course of the meeting, thanked you and gave you and Mr. Barber credit for lighting the spark to make this happen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I guess.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, at this point in time, what did you understand from your point of view the purpose or the goal of the Freedom Convoy?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To end the mandates so I could go back to work and every other essential worker could become essential again.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you have a vision at this point as to what would happen when you arrived in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I actually believed that the Prime Minister wouldn't run away and he would come and meet with us. I believed that our voices would be heard, I believed that we were validated in our complaint, and that after two years maybe somebody would care.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at some point, I understand you met Tamara Lich?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was it around that time or before?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Around which time?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Around the time of the Facebook Live presentation.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't have a date that I met Tamara Lich. I can estimate approximately the 14th of January.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the people that I named, that is, you, Mr. Barber, Mr. King, Ms. Lich, Mr. Bauder, did you regard them as the leadership group of this effort?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not all of them.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Who did you regard as the leadership group?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Chris, myself, James, Pat was lead on media. There were -- there's a lot of leaders. Tamara was not considered an organiser or a leader. She was never presented to me that way. She had offered to do the Give -- GoFundMe, I apologise, and Facebook media. That's where I understood her to start and stop her involvement.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And -- so -- well, you've told us about your role in southern Ontario. Were you doing publicity as well?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. It was difficult as I was receiving phone calls from all over the country.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And was there a sign-up procedure?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe -- it came out later, someone provided a document to hand out to the truck drivers to sign up. A lot of that didn't happen due to the chaos at each of these stops. Canada came to welcome us, Canada came to travel with us, and Canada came to support us.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Barber was responsible for the western convoy. Is that ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was responsible for his province.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what were Mr. Bauder's responsibilities?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For his group.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And am I correct that he already had a number of maps and routes from his prior convoy to Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct, he was our support. He stated that he would provide us with support, places to park, information, a group of people that would welcome us and assist us. I don't think he failed on that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was there anybody else involved in the -- this organising process that we haven't talked about?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the beginning?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I'm aware of. Again, however, each leader had a group of individuals that they worked with, so it expanded outwards.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you have road captains?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s what they tended to be called. I considered everyone I spoke with to be their own leader, to follow the direct -- the idea that we had envisioned and go from there.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how did you make sure everybody understood that idea?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
When we had our initial contact. I mean, when I talked with Southwestern Ontario leads or road captains or organizers, whatever you'd like to call them, it was very clear this is what we are doing, this is how we'd like to do it in your area, this is possible, and we're always going to be about safety. A lot of these drivers that stood up to take leadership roles were business owners, independent contractors, or just owner-operators in general. They know how to do logistics. I don’t need to tell them.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So if we can move forward then to the date when you departed from -- with your convoy.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Is there anything else you want to say about what happened before?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is there something specific you're looking for?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
No, I just want to make sure you -- I didn’t miss anything.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had been in contact with OPP Brian from Sarnia. We were on the same page. I was following his advice. I was instilling it into the drivers that I was working with that safety is number one. And we went forward. The day we arrived on the 23rd was overwhelming.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
At that point, how many trucks were in your convoy?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was too many people to count. The truck stop at Wyoming at Exit 25, I've never seen more than maybe 100 trucks in there, and that day, it was hard to get a lane in and out of the truck stop. It was a snake. You had to snake around. London was no different, and neither was any other truck stop or our planned stop along the way.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So you had planned to have other stops along the way where other trucks joined you or the convoy?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They would just roll in with us, a lot of them.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Excuse me. There's one important element that’s missing that was in her timeline, and it would have been included, had I been asking the questions, and that was the things that she did to try and resolve the issues prior to initiating the convoy with the CBSA and MPs and so on. And I think she has -- or I know she has entered those documents to the Commission.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if you could take a note, that’s the sort of thing you're welcome to do. Maybe that question can be dealt with. But if you can make notes, those are the sorts of things that would be helpful to the Commission when you get to do your questioning. We can fill in those blanks.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, I am coming to this, but if I can just have the clerk turn up COM00000871? But before you start that, I have a couple of questions. What was the route that you followed to Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm sorry, what was?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What was the route that you followed to Ottawa, just in general?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I took 402 down to the 401, 401 to the 416, 416 to I believe it was the 417 to Pinecrest, Pinecrest to Carling, Carling to the Parkway, and I was blocked in with the rest of the trucks at the intersection for the last bridge before Wellington.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how long were you blocked in there for?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The trucks remained there the whole time. I was in my pickup truck. I didn’t bring a big truck to Ottawa. It would be easier for me to assist and help people move around in my pickup truck. So I took my pickup truck and I was able to turn around and go back the other way, so I was in and out same day.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So is that location where your convoy stayed for the ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s where the map ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- duration?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- sent us. That’s where the police sent us, and that’s where we went.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I was going to ask you, did you have ongoing contact with the OPP or the Ottawa Police Service along the way?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I honestly can't tell you if I did or did not. I am sure I did. I had a lot of phone calls coming in and a lot of police talking with me along the way. Once Sarnia met up with the GTA, Dave Steenburg took over lead, as he had the most vehicles. So I'm sure he can answer those questions and we did communicate between myself, my -- Andrew, the Yonkers, ADT Trucking. We were all in communication. We all knew each other at this point. We had approximately three weeks to two and a half weeks to prepare, so we were definitely constantly in communication.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Your understanding, though, is that there was contact with the police along the way?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My understanding is yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did they -- is it your understanding that they directed you where to go when you arrived, as you've described?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My pictures show that where the police officers moving the barrels and my truck is going through where he directed.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, if we can take a step back, you did another TikTok video --- (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That wasn’t during. That was probably posted afterwards.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, let me bring it up and you can see it and we'll -- it's COM00000871. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, we see in ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Counsel, when was this document disclosed to the parties? Is this one of the documents that were disclosed this morning?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Sorry?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is this one of the -- sorry, is this one of the documents that were disclosed this morning?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
No. Now, in that video we saw people along the sides of the road, on the overpasses. Can you just describe what you were experiencing along the way?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Canadians finally peaceful. Canadians supporting each other. Canadians finally not separated or segregated in any way.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And before you arrived in Ottawa, did you have a plan as to where you were going to go, or was your plan just to follow the directions that you received?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be questions for James Bauder. He had the information, had made arrangements, and we were following his lead on that. So those organizational details went to him. I was following what was sent to me from his organization, and I do believe I had to request it on the 28th, as I hadn’t received it. But we were following the directions. He had done this before. I was following his direction.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so you say -- told the Commissioner that you had a -- you were in your pickup truck; you got out of that line; where did you go?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
After everybody was parked?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I went up to Arnprior to meet my buddy, Chris.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do then?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I hugged him.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. At some point, did you come back into Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that night. I stayed a relative’s home.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
M’hm. And so you came back on the 29th; is that ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I went back up to Arnprior on the 29th and I led my stack and the rest of the convoy in. I knew the area. It’s easier when you have a pilot car that knows the directions and the city streets. We were again told to go through onto the SJAM; however, a portion of the convoy was, unknowingly to me then, directed by overhead signs to use different streets. Some of us were already on the SJAM and others were being directed by overhead signage.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Do you know -- to use what streets, do you know?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was on the SJAM so I wouldn’t know.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And where did you -- and this was the Western Convoy, was it, that you were guiding in?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And where did you end up?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On the SJAM.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at some point, did you make your way into Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, the SJAM comes right up. We -- the Ottawa Police had moved whatever barricade or blockade, whatever they had preventing vehicles from moving forward, allowed Chris and myself to move up onto Wellington Street. I parked right beside this building, off the roadway. Chris found a parking spot on Wellington and that’s where he parked Big Red. Tamara and Chris got out.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And had you anticipated that vehicles would be parked on Wellington itself?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understood what James Bauder had told me. I believe we had permits. I’m not sure if we did or not. I didn’t doublecheck anybody’s work.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at some point, did you become aware that trucks had been -- were located in residential areas off of Wellington?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I came in and out of the city almost every day for approximately five days. I had no problem getting in and out of the city. If you learned how to snake around the city, it was open access. I did understand there were some concerns about where trucks were and, Chris being Chris, was taking care of that, so I let him do that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I should rephrase that. I didn’t let him do that; we agreed he would do that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do during the weeks you were in Ottawa, and just in very general terms; how did you occupy yourself?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, there was so much to do. I made designs for sweaters for the show up on -- at Parliament Hill. I donated food to the Youville Centre, which I’m a former girl of. I helped with logistics when I could. I helped with mapping. I helped -- my hand was in every pot, although I was not in one section. They tried to -- Tom Morazzo kept trying to fit me into a box and I said, “I’m sorry, I don’t fit into the boxes. I’m up here,” and I just went off and did whatever wherever anybody needed me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can you give me some examples of where you were needed?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had a call from a City of Ottawa resident that her and a few of her family members were having a hard time reaching a food bank. So I told her to give me her number, I would work on getting her support to get to the foodbank that she needed to since taxis, buses, and other transportation were not coming into the city. And that’s what I did; I passed her number off to John. I do not know his last name. And I do know he’s from Ontario. And I passed her number off to John, checked with him, made sure that was taken care of, and away we went. So when a fire came up, if I could put it out, I’d put it out. If I couldn’t, I’d pass it on.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
How did that person get your phone number; do you know?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was posted all over the internet.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I’m going to -- if you can turn up, Mr. Register, COM00000870. It’s another one of your TikTok videos. But while that’s happening, what were you seeing in Ottawa on Wellington St.?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Love, unity, people happy. This had been two years people had been supressed, two years people were struggling, two years that our government had told us, “Shame your family. Do not allow them to come to Christmas. Do not allow them to come at Easter. Do not allow them to come to your home if they are not vaccinated, if they don’t wear a mask.” There was a lot of hate in Canada and the Toronto Sun supported it -- or the Toronto Star, excuse me, supported it. People were evil towards each other, and that is not what I saw in Ottawa. I saw love. I saw unity. I saw Quebec with Alberta. I saw Ontario with Quebec hugging. I saw people happy. It was the best thing that happened to our country in two years.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay, can we play that video? (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What led you to make that TikTok video?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
One of the ministers complained they were getting harassed and they had work to do in Ottawa. We had been harassed every day for two years.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if you can bring up, please -- it’s another video -- COM00000872. Did you -- while you were -- we’re doing that -- while you were in Ottawa, did you see -- you’ve described the -- how you felt about the conduct there but did you see any conduct that was -- you felt was inappropriate and caused you concern?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I mean there were people drinking; maybe it wasn’t in an LCBO licensed establishment. But I saw food not being checked by food agencies either. Is that the risk? I guess we all took it and we survived.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can we play that video, then? (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And where was that taken?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Up at Parliament Hill on Wellington.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was the day I arrived, I believe.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Now if I can just shift gears here for a minute? I guess that's not the appropriate expression to use for someone who drives a truck, but I ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you can do it without clutching, I'm impressed.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
At some point, you learned of -- did you learn about protests in Windsor and Sarnia?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
How did you learn?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Media.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you speak to anybody who was involved?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not involved.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Who did you speak to?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I spoke with ADT Trucking, who called me and asked me if we could block the Windsor border, and my response was, "No way. Continue to slow roll."
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who was -- who called you from ADT?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know who called me from ADT.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And any other contact with anyone involved in the -- what was going on in Windsor or Sarnia?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In Sarnia?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I saw Tik Tok videos of farmers on the roadway. Only through social media did I have contact. I had no idea that was planned. I had no idea anything like that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And we've heard about other protests at borders in other places in Canada. Did you have any contact with anyone who was involved in those protests?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. Even my Tik Tok suggests that I don't know anyone at the Coutt's border, but I thought they had a lot of gumption, I guess you could say.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now coming back to your time in Ottawa, did you maintain contact with James Bauder?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could you repeat that question?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Coming back when you were in Ottawa, did you maintain contact with James Bauder?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Coming back from where?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Oh, sorry. I'm just coming back in my questions to your time in Ottawa. Did you maintain contact with James Bauder?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I saw him every day. We were in the same hotel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can you -- do you -- did you have any idea about how large his group of protesters were?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Did you have any conflicts or concerns with him?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We all have conflict with each other. It's human nature.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Anything of significance?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you understand that there were concerns being expressed about his memorandum of understanding?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were concerns expressed about pretty much all of us at one point in time.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what was -- did you have any reaction to the concerns about his memorandum of understanding?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It had nothing to do with me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you have any ongoing contact with Pat King while you were in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, he offered to pay for the sweaters that I designed.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We hugged in the street, we livestreamed together. He was doing his job as media when it came to me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And were you aware of that there were some criticisms of things he was doing in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were criticisms of all of us from somebody.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns about what he was doing in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've already said no.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now I understand that, at some point, you and some of the others that you dealt with at the beginning when you were organizing the convoy had a disagreement. Is that a fair way to put it?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Wouldn't be the first time, probably won't be the last.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
At some point did you break away from the leadership group or anything like that while you were in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not while I was in Ottawa. I did not show up as often at the Sheraton where Keith Wilson and Tamara and Chris were mostly stationed with a few others. I felt more comfortable at the Arc doing more of the humanitarian style helping and just being me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And we heard evidence this morning that Mr. -- sorry, let me rephrase that. Were you involved in distributing envelopes of cash to people in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did I physically go out and do that?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any involvement in putting them together or anything like that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did have one or two -- let me restart that again. I had one or two times where I put envelopes together. Due to transparency, I had requested that we film those, so that when we got the money, we counted it, we put it into envelopes, and they were distributed. The group over at the Sheraton got a little upset with us, as they were handing out $500 and Drew had suggested we hand out 2,000 since 500 is not a large number.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And the group at the Sheraton, who was that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be Chris Barber, Keith Wilson, Tamara Lich, Joe Jensen, Dale, Ryan, Miranda.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I'm sorry, I missed what you said. Who suggested $2,000?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was Drew. I could be incorrect.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did -- what happened with that? Did anything come of that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They got $2,000.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of your relations with the group at the Sheraton?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were upset. They said we made them look bad.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now on February 12th, 2022, you are aware that -- or at least you're now aware that an agreement was reached with the Mayor of Ottawa to move trucks onto Wellington?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm assuming I wasn't there.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you know or hear about such an agreement?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard the agreement was not valid.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who did you hear that from?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Through social media.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you discuss it with anyone to find out whether it was valid or not?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I heard the report and moved on.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
If I can ask you to bring up COM00000868? And I understand this to be a Tik Tok you posted on February 13, 2022. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So that was the -- a copy of the agreement?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, could be.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Or a notice of the agreement, I'm sorry.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. I don't know how I got it, if I took it myself, but I have no recollection of how that got to be, but I always forwarded information onto my Tik Tok.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And why did you put it as fake news?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because I believed it to be fake.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you check with anybody one way or another? How did you come by that belief?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's what I was told by whomever was around me. It was fake news, so that's what I posted.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at some point in time, you left Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Ottawa red zone or Ottawa as a whole?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, let's deal with both. At some point, did you leave the Ottawa red zone?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I left on the 18th in the red zone.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And where did you go?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To Ottawa West to a family member's home.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And why did you leave on that day?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because the police were about to attack Canadian citizens.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And were you arrested at any time?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
For how -- well, how -- tell me about that. What happened?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understood the government officials stated that they had notified organisers their bank accounts would be frozen. My husband notified me my bank account and his bank account were -- and our business bank account were frozen. And at 10:04, on the 17th, is when I received a phone call from a person stating they were from the Royal Bank, and that they had frozen my accounts. They had a very nasty exchange with me because they had no right to do so. I told them to open the accounts. They told me to call them when I left Ottawa, and I said, "you need to open my accounts." We ended the exchange. I realised other people in the room were also getting that same phone call. Whether it was the same person making the phone call, I do not know, but I do know other people in the room were getting the same phone call.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so what happened after that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had no money.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had to ask for money or let people know that I didn't have any money. And I was lucky enough that two gentlemen on the street actually understood my truck payment was coming due and I was a few hundred dollars short, I think it was six-something I was short. They together, collectively, sent me enough money to cover my truck payment. A woman by the name of Massena (ph) was kind enough to give me $100, which helped because it put gas in my pickup truck to go. And from then, we had to scramble on how we were going to pay for medication for my husband and how we were going to pay the mortgage.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so this was while you were still in the Ottawa area?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at some point were your accounts unfrozen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And when was that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You'd have to ask my husband, he takes care of that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And when did you leave Ottawa to come back home?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
March. I don't have a specific date.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I'm sorry?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't have a specific date, but it was March.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And is there anything else you want to tell the Commissioner about what happened while you were in Ottawa?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I just want everybody to know that we weren't there to disrupt the city residents, we were there to be heard. I had given 32 emails, approximately, to MPs and MPPs, 32. Not one of them did anything for me. I followed how things are supposed to go. You first go and you complain. You try again. You try again. And when CBSA sent me a reply pretty much "Suck it up buttercup, this is the way it's going to go, and you're about to lose your job, so don't worry about it", what did you want me to do? Sit down? Lie down? Lose everything over a mandate that was really no longer effect in the U.S.? That's what my country was asking for me. That's what Canadians that were supporting vaccine mandates were asking of me, to lose everything because they were afraid, because our government did a very good job at scaring people, making them so afraid that today still some wear face masks. Many of us here are not.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That propaganda hurt our country. And having our Prime Minister say that there will be consequences for the unvaccinated, and "we don't want them sitting beside our children on planes and trains and automobiles." And the amount of -- I'm trying to control my anger over this gentleman. But the wording that he used was division, the whole time. Pit one person against another. Shame them. Make them comply, and if they don't, they will. I'm sorry, I draw the line when my government wants to throw something into my body I cannot remove. That is where I draw the line. Bodily autonomy, it is mine. It is not my government's.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you for answering my questions. (APPLAUSE)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're going to take a break, and I'm going to consider whether we're going to clear the hall. So I'm going to take a short break and when I come back I'll decide if we're going to clear the hall. Five minutes.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 5 minutes, la commission lever pour 5 minutes.
Upon recessing at 5:35 p.m.
Upon resuming at 5:42 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'order. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
MS. BRIGITTE BELTON, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, thank you for that indulgence. I've decided, hesitant, but I've decided not to clear the room at this point. I did notice there's a significant group that is I think doing its best to comply. I'm -- but I am concerned. I mean, this is -- I firmly believe this is an important process and that it should be, as much as possible, respected, so we'll go ahead. I hope not to have more issues. So we were about to turn to some of the questioning. Are you okay to continue?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, Your Honour.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So the first is the Government of Canada, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW GIBBS
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Ms. Belton.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrew Gibbs and I'm part of the counsel team for the Government of Canada. I have two quick areas of questions for you. The first area is with respect to -- it was touched on a little bit with the Commission's counsel with respect to some of the -- I won't call them fights, but disagreements, as you indicated, amongst the leadership group, and in particular, with respect to the handling of money by Tamara Lich. Did you have concerns about the handling of money by Ms. Lich?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understood Keith Wilson was directing her and taking care of it. He's a lawyer. There should be no concern.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So do you recall posting something on Tik Tok expressing concern?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Tik Tok video was actually not even about Tamara. Everybody has taken that so out of context. The Tik Tok was regarding the Unified People of Canada or whatever. I have an embassy. It's called the Canadian Embassy. This embassy was trying to associate with the convoy. I didn't know any of the organizers or if they were with -- involved with Tamara. I know they had stated they were. I had never seen them before. I was trying more to denounce what they were doing. They had said they were advisors of Tamara. I was concerned over a comment in a car that had been made over spending money on a building. I did voice my opinion in the car that we were here to end mandates. When we were done working with the government or getting our five minutes with them to speak with them that we were planning on leaving. There was no longer a plan to stay.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we can just call up the video, just for the record, it's PB.CAN.00001777.
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, if you'll allow me a brief indulgence, we're just trying to revolve a hard drive issue. It'll be two minutes at most ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
The Registrar (POEC)
--- if that's appropriate.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you very much. And I only have one other question and it's on a particular document. We were provided -- the parties were provided with documents over the lunch break, about 216 documents that you had filed over the lunch break for us?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With my team, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
With your team? Okay. And so I've only gotten through some of them. There was one document in particular I'd like your help just to understand so.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Welcome to my life. You guys threw a lot at me in a short period of time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes, I think we're all in the same boat on that. If you can call up the video, please, the Tik Tok video?
The Registrar (POEC)
It'll be just another 60 seconds. The videos right now are just about to be ready.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We've had to deal with a lot of documents, you can imagine, Miss.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I could pull it up on my phone faster.
The Registrar (POEC)
If counsel has any other documents in paper format, I do have those available ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
The other document then is BRB00000 -- sorry, 00000062. Do you recognize this document?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, those were things that had been posted on a Telegraph site. Who posted them I'm unaware. We were very, very concerned over safety of, you know, protesters and stuff like that.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And for the sake of the Commission and others in the room who are perhaps less familiar with Telegraph, I'm starting to figure out Tik Tok, but what is Telegraph?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a platform that steals a lot of space from my phone. That's about the best way to explain. It's pretty much just a messaging, a fast way of messaging through a group of a bunch of people.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And is it a secure messaging platform?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no idea.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Fair. If you can focus in on the bottom left-hand corner, I believe it's item number three.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
There's a mention with respect to ---
Excuse me, is there any way to enlarge that for those of us with poor eyesight? Thank you.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I may have another pair.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
There's a reference to tow trucks, which is a common theme in the Commission -- before the Commission. And I'm just -- if we can perhaps shift a bit to the -- oh, I can see it up here perhaps. Were you aware that people in the tow truck industry were being encouraged not to provide tow truck services to the police?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not necessarily, but I understand they've been put in a very rock and hard place kind of position. Had I known they showed up to tow tow trucks, I wouldn't use their service. That's me. I am sure a lot of other truck drivers would have felt the same.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So the message reads: "The most strategic and effective way to protest once you arrive in Ottawa is absolutely nothing. Park your truck on the road, turn off the engine, and let it sit there. No tow truck company would dare tow it away, and if they do, get it on video, and make sure everyone knows not to do business with them. Vote with your wallet." Does that capture the sentiment you just expressed?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We do that with lots of things. We don’t like what Coca-Cola said, we don’t buy Coke any more. We don't like what somebody says about children or animals, we don’t buy their product any more. It's the same thing. Tow truck services are a product. If we don’t like what they do, we don’t have to buy their service.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So for them to assist the citizens of Ottawa and tow the trucks, or to assist the police and tow the trucks, that would result in not buying their services?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wouldn't buy their service. They weren’t in support of the Canadians.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Mr. Clerk, do we have the video now?
The Registrar (POEC)
If you could just briefly repeat the document ID, I should ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Yes. PB.CAN.00001777_REL. And for the record, Commissioner, I would have ended a lot earlier. I know I've burned a bit of my time in previous rounds, so this one, I hope -- here we are. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As I said, it was more directed to St. Bridget's, but ---
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you said she threatened you in the TikTok video.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
She did.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And what was the nature of that threat?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The threat was that if I used my voice and did any more media that she would include me in the lawsuit with the City of Ottawa.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And if you did not? If you were silent?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If I was silent -- there was no, "If you're silent", but that was the threat.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. I have no further questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the convoy organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I am going to ask under -- I can't recall the rule -- but with respect to the order of examination, as we got the documents from this particular witness, several hundred of them, not until this afternoon, I do have concerns from the brief ones I have reviewed, and I have given a written objection to your counsel with respect to those. What I would like to do in the meantime, sir, is I would like your leave and approval to examine this witness following her paralegal examining her. I can tell you, at this point, I don’t have many questions for this witness at all. My concern is the beginning of a character assassination as well as attacking my client, the corporation itself. And given what was just asked by the Government of Canada and what was just said, I would like to sit back and see what the evidence is with respect to the character assassination evidence that I think this witness is intending to give, before I do my examination, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not sure we should be talking about character assassinations; rather, there are some issues (audio skip) raised. I think let's try and not inflame things and take one step at a time. So you'd like to defer at the moment, and maybe I can hear from ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I'm okay with that.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I don’t mind if we go first. I think that’s what he's saying. That’s okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that should not be a problem. So let's go through the rest of the roster and then we can get to that. Okay. So next, the Ottawa Residents.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Ms. Belton. My name is Paul Champ. I'm the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I just have some questions for you, further to your testimony today. You testified earlier, Ms. Belton, that it was not your intention to disrupt the lives of residents of downtown Ottawa; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you did recognize that the activities of the protest, the trucks taking up all of the streets and the horns and so forth, did indeed disrupt resident who were living within the six or eight blocks of those activities?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As did millions of Canadians that demanded people get vaccines and demand that they wear masks and demand that they be thrown to the ground. Yeah, I understood what had happened over the last two years, and I'm sorry they were affected for three weeks, but I suffered for three years -- well, two years.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you associate the people with downtown Ottawa with the Government of Canada? Like, did you assume that these were government -- federal government workers in some way who deserved that disruption?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that would be ludicrous.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on your arrival in the city, we've heard some evidence about a strategy to gridlock the city. Can you tell us about that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn’t part of that (audio skip).
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What was the plan, as far as you understood, with the 400-plus semi tractor trailer trucks converging on downtown? Where did you think they would go?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understood there were two locations we were to go, but that the police had redirected us. Once we got together at the ARC, we started to hear concerns, and I believe the guys were working on it, doing whatever they could to deal with the logistics issues. I did not deal with the logistics issues in Ottawa.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were a road captain managing the convoy of trucks from Southwestern Ontario to Ottawa; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, and I went where the police directed us, which was nowhere near your residents, by the way.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Where -- sorry, what does that mean?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That means your residents were further north.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ours were on the SJAM. There was no residents where we had been. We were in front of the War Memorial.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that’s the War Memorial.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There is. You would have seen the apartment buildings there in front of your trucks?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it was further back.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was not right directly with the truck.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With respect to mask mandates -- I understand your position with respect to vaccines -- you are also opposed to mask mandates; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not opposed to mask mandates. I'm opposed to women who are victims of violence to be forced to wear them or be thrown to the ground.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were people in restaurants and stores throwing people to the ground? Is that what you observed?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I observed video from Canadian Tire and Costco both where securities threw people to the ground. Also, a woman in BC that had no hands, arms from the elbow down was refused service at a grocery store because she couldn't put a mask on. So the general public lacked empathy and sympathy for those that could not comply.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you have sympathy or empathy for people who were elderly or had medical conditions where they'd be susceptible to dying from COVID-19?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, but we have never locked up the healthy, ever.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to the mask mandates, there was a lot of people in the convoy demonstrations who were very opposed to masks and mask wearing, correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Everybody had their own belief. Some wore masks, some didn’t. There were people on the street that wore masks.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Can I object? That question doesn’t go to the mandate that was established for that process so why should she have to answer questions about that.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t even believe there was a mask mandate in effect at that time.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Indeed, there was. I’m not sure if I understand the objection, Ms. Scharf.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
The objection is that the protest was not about masks. It was about truckers, mandates for truckers for travel.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we’ve heard a great deal of evidence, if we follow the train ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, now, there is ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is a process. You speak through me. Ms. Scharf, I understand your point, but this is cross-examination so I tend to give a little latitude. So if that -- I think that question is within that latitude.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, Ms. Belton, we’ve heard previous evidence from the police and others about some convoy protesters being very upset about people wearing masks and doing protests by going into stores and shops and restaurants in large groups without wearing masks. Did you observe those kinds of activities while you were here?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I observed maskless people. I didn’t see protests. You might want to talk to those that caused the issue. That was not me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So when you went into restaurants and shops, you wore a mask during the convoy protest?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m a victim of violence and I won’t put a mask on to make you feel better.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So when I have to go through what I have to go through and take Ativan because you want me to wear a mask, and then you don’t want me to drive a car however I live in the country, I take issue to that. I can’t walk home. I don’t live in a city centre like you do. So yes, there are issues on both sides and there is no compassion on this side. That is the issue. You are painting this exactly like the Toronto Star did. You have no empathy for us.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I take that as a no, you didn’t wear masks when you went into stores or restaurants ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, because I’m a female victim of violence and you need to respect that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And did you observe others that you’d go with into stores and shops wearing -- not wearing masks, the people you were with?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was asked answered. Yes, the answer was yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what would -- how would people respond when shop owners or staff, sometimes young teenage staff would say, “Please where a mask”? What are some things you observed in those interactions?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t have those interactions.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No one ever asked, “Can you please where a mask or leave?”
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With respect to the money -- so you were aware before you got to Ottawa that there was the large fundraiser, people were raising funds to support the truckers with covering their fuel, and their food, and their -- and so forth; you were aware of that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, Tamara did an amazing job at raising funds for us.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And -- but by the time you arrived in Ottawa, you recognize it was in the multimillions that had been raised; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you came to Ottawa, how long did you think you’d be staying?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Twenty-four (24) to 48 hours.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you required $10M to stay 48 hours?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Canadians thought our voice needed to be heard and we needed to be supported.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were planning to leave in 48 hours because you assumed the government was going to agree with your demands?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We thought we would get a meeting.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So what changed? Why didn’t you -- why did you stay after 48 hours?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because Justin Trudeau did exactly what he’s done for the last two years. He literally came out and called us a whole bunch of names. I’m sorry, sir, but if I came and called you a whole bunch of names and said that your ideals and how you felt didn’t mean anything to anyone, how would you feel? And that you losing your job, your income, your way to pay your wife’s expenses to put food on the table for your children was irrelevant, how would you feel? So because of his actions, there are consequences, and that meant we stayed.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, Ms. Belton, then, if I understand your answer correctly, your plan was to come for 48 hours assuming the Prime Minister would respond to your demands but, if he did not, you were going to stay until he did; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t say that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what are you saying?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m saying we were looking for a meeting.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were going to stay until you got your meeting?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Some sort of response would be good.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were going to stay until you got your meeting?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Or a response.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you stayed in a -- you stayed in the Arc Hotel for most of the time?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Most of the time.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who paid your hotel bills?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Joseph Bourgault from what I understand.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And the -- there was also money raised in cash. You’ve told us in your testimony that, in the Arc Hotel, you were putting together envelopes to hand out to the truckers because many of them were staying -- living in their trucks; right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s where truckers live.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they were living rough. That was very tough for them. And so you were putting together envelopes of $2,000 to assist them with their expenses; right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, the fuel that they were getting, they were getting jerrycans of fuel and so forth to keep their trucks running to keep warm, I understand; correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand the same.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you were involved in it, though, right? You were involved in the logistics?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not everything.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not everything, but you were involved in meetings where there’s discussions about how to get the fuel to those trucks that were still running?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I may have been dealing with something else at the time.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And the fuel that they were getting, they were getting that for free because that was being provided by someone else; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You weren’t involved in those meetings?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know who paid for what.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, the envelopes that you were handing out, how often did you do that; how many rounds were there of envelopes being handed out?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know of two instances.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
From the Arc Hotel?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the Sheraton Hotel, they were also handing out envelopes, is your understanding?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’ll have to ask them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you testified, I believe, that you understood that the Sheraton was handing out ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, that’s the end of my understanding.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. Well, just for your assistance, Mr. Barber testified about that and, indeed, they were handing out ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And he was over at the Sheraton.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And how would you know or how did you keep track if truckers were getting the same -- were getting envelopes from multiple groups.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We would ask them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a reminder, you’re out of time so if you could try and ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Don’t I have 15 minutes, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I had a note “10 minutes”, so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, if I may, Commissioner, ask for leave for five extra minutes. I think I was getting some longer responses than anticipated.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a few more minutes but please keep it to the point.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. I believe I’m trying to be on point for my clients. Thank you. So with respect to honking, Ms. Belton, as a truck driver, you’re aware airhorns and train horns can be extremely loud?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they have a purpose; they’re warning signals.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they’re -- trucks are heavy; they can be dangerous vehicles; they need very trained people to drive them; and if there’s a hazard or something far away, you use those very loud horns to ensure people absolutely know that the truck is coming or there might be a risk.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So we’re noticed, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. But the sound of the horn, it can be dangerously if you continue to hold on it; correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So could be a racetrack, an airport, several other things.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely, I agree with you. Now -- but the horns were used by the trucks as a sort of -- a symbol of the protest throughout their time in Ottawa; is that fair?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I noticed on your lawsuit, you didn’t list every child that came and honked a horn. They are also responsible, are they not?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I take that as a yes, that you’re aware that horns were used as a protest tactic?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were -- no, they were used by the drivers. Some were having fun. I do know that Chris and the rest of them had talked; we needed to get the horns down to a minimum. We also needed to do some sleep time because some were in the city making louder noises. We did try to assist citizens.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s not that we left you out to dry. We tried to assist citizens.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Ms. Belton, there was a schedule of horns, was there not? There was a time -- they would start at 7:00 a.m. and go on throughout the day; isn’t that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that I’m aware of.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not that you’re aware of? You were downtown; you didn’t hear those horns?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know of a schedule for the horns.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You say that you tried to control the horns; is that right? Is that what you’re telling us?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I said organizers tried to control the horns. I never went out except for once during some speeches on the Hill where there was a vehicle that was making excessive noise. Actually, I think there were maybe two of them. I went up to both and I said, “Look, guys, that’s enough.” One complied, one didn’t.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Some of the other organizers, though, very much supported the horns at any time; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wouldn’t know. You’d have to ask the other organizers.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, in your discussions, like, for example, with Pat King, Pat King was very much in support of the horn, was he not?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In emergency use.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In emergency use only?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From what I understood, his direction was, if you’re in trouble, to honk your horn.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Just a final point, Ms. Belton, you’ve testified that the mayor’s deal that we’ve heard about, your understanding at the time was that that was fake news; it wasn’t true; there was no deal; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the people that you knew and that you were dealing with at the Arc Hotel opposed any deal in any event; is that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I never said that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what are -- so you would have supported a deal? If there had in fact been a deal to move the trucks to different locations, you would have supported that kind of a deal?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. If we could have lessened the events to the citizens, absolutely. We weren't there to disrupt the citizens, we were there to have our government finally hear us after two years. I did my due diligence, sir. I wrote 32 letters. I went the right way, and no one listened to me. So I don't know what you expect of me, but bringing my truck, well, I brought my pickup truck, I didn't bring a big truck. Did they notice me? Did somebody finally try and come and talk to me? The answer to that is still no. So what do I need to do have my government, that is elected, to talk to me? To help me solve my problems. You had horn honking. I watched people get thrown to the ground. I watched children in parks getting thrown off their skateboards by police officers. No one helped those people. Matter of fact, people were supporting this kind of behaviour. This is not the behaviour of a free country.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So in your view, the people of Downtown Ottawa were unfortunate casualties. If the Prime Minister had listened to you, what happened to the, those three weeks of sleeplessness and so forth, that wouldn't have happened? It's the Prime Minister's fault?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I feel for them, I honestly do, but I feel for those truck drivers that were about to not be able to feed their families. Many of those drivers had their whole families in those vehicles. With no income they lose their home. Kids are raised in a truck until school age. We had a one-month old baby that the City of Ottawa took fuel from and we had to find accommodations so it didn't freeze to death. Which is more inconvenient? Not having fuel and watch your child freeze to death or listening to a few horns? I am sorry that your clients feel that they are entitled to $460 million for horn honking. Who was going to replace my income if I took a vaccine that killed me so my husband could survive? Not any one of your clients I guarantee you.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you inflicted that on my clients ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And your clients ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- so that you could get your message back to ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- supported vaccine mandates.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, and I think it's turning into a debate, which I don't think is constructive.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next, call on the Ottawa Police Service.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I have no questions, sir. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police. You're still on mute.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I have no questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're still on mute.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Can you hear me now?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Sorry about this. I have no questions for the OPP.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. REBECCA JONES
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good evening, Ms. Belton. Rebecca Jones for former Chief Sloly. Just a few questions for you this evening. You testified that you thought the group in Coutts have a lot of gumption; right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's not the word I used on my video, but that's the word I can use here.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And I take it that's because they stayed despite police attempts to remove them from the border?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that was just in blocking the border completely, just doing that act. They were in -- all in. They were all in.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. They maintained their blockade despite attempts to remove them?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm assuming so, I wasn't there.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do have to say the horse thing was brilliant. That was just the most beautiful scene I had ever seen coming across.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You also gave evidence that Mr. Marazzo tried to put you in a box; right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe I started that with Tamara, and yeah, as well as Mr. Marazzo.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, Ms. Lich and Mr. Marazzo. And by that, you mean, I take it, that they attempted to manage you somehow?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Manage me, distance me. I found my own way and I found where I served the public better, and that's from the heart not the sleeve. So I found my place.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Okay, so can I take it, then, that you rejected or resisted those attempts to manage you and did your own thing?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I'm a truck driver, an independent truck driver and business owner, and I've been a business owner several times, so yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And so I take it that if Ms. Lich or Mr. Marazzo told you how you should be protesting you would've resisted that as well?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It depends on what their message was. If their message was incorrect you'd be correct about that.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. So if they told you it was time to leave Ottawa, and that, in your view, was incorrect, you would've resisted that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not likely.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And if they told you that there were too many horns and asked for your help to stop the horns, I take it your view would've been it's up to the individual protesters to determine how they protest?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I assisted when asked.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
When asked, and I suggest to you when you agreed with what you were being asked.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You can suggest that but you weren't there.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you disagree with me, you would have gone along with what ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I went along with a lot of the things that made sense.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If it didn't make sense -- I make horn honking, I can understand why people want that reduce, absolutely. However, when the government goes and says you can't honk your horn but we want you to leave, they obviously didn't read the Schedule 1 of a truck, which means you have to honk your horn in order to leave the city. So what, did you want to us to leave or did you want us to stay? We couldn't complete a Schedule 1.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And just a couple more things. We've heard some testimony about the swarming of police officers. Did you witness that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not witness that.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And do you have any information, I take it you didn't witness it, but do you have any information about which groups were involved in that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You also testified that Pat King was the lead on media in January; correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's what he agreed to. He agreed to put out media for us, to put us through to his followers that would allow us a broader reach. Just kind of like, I don't know, when you do a newspaper ad, except it was free, so thank you Pat.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And did Mr. King, to your knowledge, did he continue to take a lead role in the information that was being disseminated into February?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not sure I understand your question.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, fair enough. Mr. King took on a media lead role in January in terms of giving information to the public or other protesters about the convoys; right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. He also had his own podcast.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Sure. And my question was only did that sort of lead role continue into February?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know some of the organisers asked him not to do so much. I do remember in one news conference that Pat and I were in together that my job was literally to make sure that Pat didn't ramble. Pat likes to go on, and my whole job was to sit there and nudge him if he decided to ramble.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. Final question. You referred to bans that were put on -- in place on your Facebook account, right ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- over time? And was that on the basis that Facebook said you were spreading disinformation?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, but it was true information. They just didn't like the truth in Canada.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, those are my questions.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You're welcome.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCLA, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening. I'm going to be asking my questions via Zoom. Can you see me?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Perfect. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I am counsel to the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. And I just have a few questions with respect to the freezing of your bank accounts. I know you already spoke about this in the examination conducted by Commission Counsel. And I understand from that evidence that you learned from a phone call you received from RBC that your bank accounts were frozen on February 17th?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct, but it wasn't from RBC, it was actually from a police officer.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay, I see. So the telephone call that you received on that day was from a police officer that your bank accounts were frozen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, when I called it at a later date it was a police officer.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And do you know whether that police officer was a police officer of the Ottawa Police Service, the RCMP, or the OPP?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he was Toronto Service or from the Toronto area.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the police officer told you that your bank accounts could be unfrozen once you informed them that you left Ottawa; is that fair?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s what he stated.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And did you check at the time that your bank accounts had, in fact, been frozen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was already informed prior to his call by my husband.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So your husband called you to let you know that he was not able to access your joint bank accounts?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
His business account, which had my name on it, to pay for expenses; his and my joint household expense account; as well as my personal bank accounts were all frozen. He informed me at approximately 8:00 a.m.-- could be sooner than that -- and I got the call at 10:04 by the person claiming to be from the Royal Bank.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So they claimed to be from the Royal Bank, but you believed that they were a police officer? Am I getting that right?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, I believe they were a police officer because I called the number afterwards.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
You called the number afterwards?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not directly. A few months later.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
A few -- oh, so they left you a telephone number to call back at?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I screenshotted the message when they called. I screenshotted their phone number.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And you called them back later, and then how did they identify themselves when you called back later?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'd have to recall the number. Would you like me to try?
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
No. I can't ask you to try that now. I'm just asking you, how do you know that when you called back, like, a few months later, they were a police officer?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because they had no connection with the Royal Bank.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
When you spoke to them a few months later?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not speak to them. I called them back and got a message machine. It stated their name and no association with the Royal Bank.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So it was (audio skip) corporate voicemail where the person would answer, "I'm so-and- so of the Royal Bank of Canada at this branch"?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You're correct.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And you said that your bank accounts were frozen for a period of time, but you said you don’t recall for how long because your husband manages the banking; is that fair?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s fair, yeah. He dealt more with that. I was dealing with, of course, other situations, other people not having money, trying to help truckers get home. The freezing of the bank accounts created a larger problem than solving the problem.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. And in terms of the length of the problem, do you know -- can you provide your best estimate of whether your bank accounts were frozen for a period of days or whether it was a period of weeks after February 17th?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't be -- I can't nail down a time for that. I know it was a very long time that I did not have access to funds, or it felt that way.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And do you know that because by March 1st you had a mortgage payment due that you weren’t able to make?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right. A friend went and made that mortgage payment for us. They went and deposited the money for us, so that would be correct.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so can you just elaborate for me how on a person basis the freezing of the bank accounts affected you with respect to your personal bank accounts, other than the payment of your mortgage?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Other than the $100 that was gifted to me by another participant, I couldn't put fuel in my pickup truck. I live nine hours from Ottawa, so I couldn't get home. I couldn't pay for my husband's diabetic medication. We were looking for solutions to that, because the money we had, we had to decide what that was going to pay for, his -- the one unfrozen bank account, which wasn’t a main bank account. That’s not where we put all our expense money. So my expenses are now -- he's trying to cover. He's trying to cover his expenses. He's trying to cover his business expenses. He's trying to cover everything out of a very small account that’s just meant for him to do with -- you know, buy groceries or food in the U.S. Our lifestyle is a little different and it's very hard for people to understand that do not truck. There is usually a joint account to pay things that either husband or wife can do, because we never know when we'll be home. My estimate time away is approximately 289 days a year, equivalent to 4.5 trips around the earth in a year. So we need to work together to make sure our bills are paid.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So if I can summarize, your access to the joint bank account that you have with your husband is essential to manage your household finances because of the time that you spend away from home?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And the only bank account that you had access to was the personal bank account of your husband's that was not frozen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not have access to that. That is his personal bank account. So he had access to money on the road. I was in Ottawa nine hours from my home and I had access to nothing.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Can you -- I asked you about your experience personally with respect to the freezing of your personal bank account.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, so you're going to have to wrap up, please.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Yeah, so this is my -- going to be my last question, and I apologize, Commissioner. Can you just elaborate on how it affected your business to have your business account frozen?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
How it affected our business?
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Correct.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We ended up having people - - we actually, I believe, just deferred the payment a month. We had to call and defer the payment.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTOINE D’AILLY
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hello, Mr. Commissioner, Ms. Belton. My name is Antoine D'Ailly. I'm counsel to Citizens for Freedom, representing the peaceful demonstrators in Windsor, Ontario. I just have a few questions to clarify some earlier testimony. The first TikTok video that was played today, the one that you indicated was broadcasted while you were detained at secondary at one of the Windsor border's crossings, was that the Ambassador Bridge you were being detained at?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, not Blue Water. Yes, it was Windsor Ambassador Bridge, yeah.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. And what was the approximate date of that video?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
November 17th? It's either the 16th or the 17th.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s 2021 or 2020?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Twenty twenty-one (2021).
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Twenty twenty-one (2021). And you had indicated in your testimony that you were afraid that, you know, Windsor police would be involved, other policing agencies. Did other law enforcement actually have -- become involved in that interaction with you, or was it just CBSA that day?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On that day, when I crossed in, I tried to explain to the Windsor border CBSA agent that I could not wear a mask, that my visor that I usually used had been broken during the trip. But he would open the window and go, "Put on a mask," and he would slam it. And he would open it up and yell, "Put on a mask," before I could answer again, and slam it. We finally got to the, "She's not got one", and I tried to explain. It was not good enough. He was on some sort of power trip, and he told me to enjoy my time with the Windsor police. I took that as a threat to my safety and security as a Canadian entering my country.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But when you entered, did you actually have an interaction with Windsor police on that particular day?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. My interaction first was with a CBSA officer that was yelling at me to get back into my truck. I had waited a long time for them to come see me, so I was like, have we gone back to the old rules where you got to go in? So I went to go in and I was yelled to get back in my truck. I got back in my truck. I did as I was told. And then I had the officer ask me if PHAC had called me. I believe at that point, they hadn’t. The second time, they had. PHAC said they were waiting on police to arrive to issue a $6,000 fine or of that nature.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And just to say, PHAC, here you're talking about the Public Health Agencies?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s what they called them, yeah.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. You also indicated in your earlier testimony that you had witnessed a CBSA strike a number of years ago and that you had been left to sit on the bridge for over two hours.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you recall about when that occurred?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I actually have it within my files. I believe it was 2020, possibly August. It's in my files. I don't have it right in front of me.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And that was the Ambassador Bridge as well then?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was on the Bluewater at that point. The CBSA strike was more than one bridge. It was unilateral. It was all over the news.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And when you were on the Bluewater Bridge that day and your truck was at a complete standstill on the bridge as in no traffic was entering Canada through that port of entry because of the actual CBSA officers; is that correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was entering almost in reverse mode. It was extremely slow. I sat on the bridge. I looked down and from my location you can see their parking lot. And in front of their parking lot, they had their picket signs. They had approximately three or four agents who walked, pointed at the trucks upon the bridge, turned around, walked backwards, walked so slow to their gates, I'd never seen them walk so slow before. You'd think they were on vacation.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did not appear that they were concerned in speeding up the access ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They did not care about Canadian truck drivers or American truck drivers coming in, not one bit. My buddy was there for 14 hours. A lot of these drivers, especially for the garbage removal, go in and out a couple of times a day. That could have meant that any one of those truck drivers didn't have a full supply of medication on them. They didn't care what happened to those truck drivers. Canadian government didn't care what happened to those truck drivers. Doug Ford didn't care what happened to those truck drivers. CBSA's top management didn't care what happened to us either.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Understood. And you'd indicated that you had received a report that one of your colleagues had been stuck at one of these ports of entry for 14 hours. Was that ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- also at the Bluewater Bridge or was that the Ambassador Bridge?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was also at Bluewater.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thanks. Just turning to the convoy that it sounded like you led from Sarnia to Ottawa. Can you remind me again the precise date that you left Sarnia and would have passed through London, Ontario?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We left on the 27th.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Twenty-seven (27). And for those less familiar with the structure of the highway in the area, is it accurate that the 402 merges into the 401 either westbound or eastbound right outside of London?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that that juncture where the 402 and the 401 connect is about 200 kilometres away from Windsor, Ontario?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Were any of the trucks from convoy you were leading from Sarnia directed by you at that junction to head towards Windsor, so westbound instead of towards Ottawa eastbound on January 27th?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
A subsequent video was showed earlier today in which -- I believe it was one of your Tik Tok videos where you're speaking about being threatened by CBSA agents, being extensions of the federal government. You mention a group that was carrying out some threatening activity, and I'm not sure on the pronunciation, but was this Antifa? Is this the same group that was referenced earlier today by Mr. Charland?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know what was referenced earlier today.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Understood. Final question here is, were you physically present in Windsor at any point between January 23rd and February 14th of 2022?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm sorry, the date again?
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
January 23rd and February 14th of 2022.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I may have been there on the 23rd. I would have to recheck my logbooks. I did come in late into the convoy. I was having issues with my load. When I had left to Alberta, I ended up being delayed, and I did arrive back to the convoy late to get started. I had a gentleman by the name of Carl start my Sarnia, so I may have been a day late, which meant I would have gone there, parked, dropped my trailer and then joined the convoy.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And so on January 27th then when the convoy left Sarnia, you were not with the convoy at that point? You joined them at some point on ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was only a day behind.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So then on January 27th you started in Sarnia; is that correct?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, yea.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Those are my questions. Thank you.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next it's Ms. Belton's representative, so do you have any questions or has everything been covered?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
No, everything hasn't been covered.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JANE SCHARF
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. First off, the original map, I believe the Commission number is BRB00000217. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
The Registrar (POEC)
If it's helpful to counsel, would -- is there a place where you'd like to start or just start?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
There is a dialogue on it. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Can you start it at the beginning? We missed some of it. It was sort of muted. Okay. Thank you. (VIDEO PLAYBACK) This is the secondary map that we had in Ottawa. The first one is not available to me. This was the other one that the printing came out a little blurry, so we didn't use it as much. We did put some notations on it, but this is the map that we had in our boardroom. And this is the Transportation Master Map plan 7 -- or map 7 from the City of Ottawa website. It was blown up. That was supplied to us by Andrew Peloso. So on January 28th, the southwestern Ontario GTA and Niagara Region arrived in Ottawa. We were led down the Ottawa River Parkway by the police. They told us to take this route even though it was a non-truck route. And the Carling exit onto the Ottawa Parkway was very difficult for trucks to make, bobtail and with trailers. The police had it barricaded and removed the barricades in front of me to allow us to go onto this JAM. We arrived here and were brought over by the war museum. The police had a blockade right here and would not allow trucks to go up onto Wellington. On January 29th, when the western group came in, led by myself, Mike as the second pilot car and Chris Barber as the lead truck, came up onto the Ottawa Parkway. Police then moved their barricades, which were barrels, they were barrel barricades, and allowed Chris to bring his truck up onto Wellington, approximately this area right here, just before the Parliament Hills. He was pretty much across from the parking area, because I remember parking close to there. They did not let the rest of the trucks come. They all remained behind the barricades that were put there in place by the City of Ottawa Police. Trucks were on both sides. A lane was open on both sides. They used the centre medium [sic] for their kitchen, and along the sides of each roadway each direction is where the cars and trucks parked. The full intention with this map was to make sure that we left lanes open and emergency routes available for quick access for police. We knew that there were several hospitals or care homes in the area. It was very important to us to leave those open. There was Élisabeth Bruyère Centre right up here. And we wanted this route straight here, straight down open as well as through to Rideau and down to the 417 open. It was imperative. It was very important for us to leave access for emergency vehicles. I had a friend who was a resident at Élisabeth Bruyère, so that was very important to me. And being a long-term resident of the Ottawa area and a former City employee, safety is definitely top priority for myself and we worked as a team to make that happen. So we were aware that there was a lot of vehicles in the area. We were trying to solve the parking problem and get more trucks off the streets, making almost two lanes open. In some places we succeeded around he Bank Street area. Lower Bank Street area we were able to do that. So we were looking for other parking. The problem was getting them in and out of areas. So we knew there was parking down here. We knew there was parking over here. But to get big trucks in and out was an issue and to make sure that the police didn’t block off the access, so trucks could come and go at their will, should they decide that they wanted to leave. We also had notes on this map. You’ll see over here at the side. These notes are of leaders. And they’re designed roles. The first one we have would be Pat. It states right here that we knew right from the beginning -- because this map was done within the first two days of being in Ottawa, so approximately between the 29th and the 2nd of February, I would say. Approximately the first two days we started working on this. To the best of my knowledge this map was done within the first few days of us being in Ottawa. We were working on a smaller printed map but Andrew, of course, provided these for us which was a great help. As you can see, Pat was on here. This is not my writing. To the best of my knowledge this is Tom Marazzo’s writing but he would have to confirm that. Pat was here for video information and output of social media. That was his primary goal. However, Pat was very very instrumental in helping us solve problems with great suggestions for the truck drivers. As you see, Tamara had -- Tamara Lich -- and that was Pat King, sorry. This is Tamara Lich. She has no dedicated spot to her name. However, when we were on a Zoom call, approximately between January 12th and January 14th, her role was designated as social media and fundraising, crowd funding. Chris -- this is Chris Barber. He and I are talking to the troops. He did a very very good job at talking to a lot of the truckers and getting his picture taken and being there for the issues. These marks represent the amount of people I was giving credit to for bringing trucks here and I have forgotten a lot now that I look at this map. There are far more than eight and then we had four more, of course. Those were the key eight were the four starters. So that would be myself, Chris Barber, Pat King, and James Bauder. Then we had eight more underneath. Those would be ones that we had brought into the organization through social media calls, however we touched base. The B.C. organizer is listed here as Sean. This is not the same writing. I’m not sure who wrote this on the map because the B.C. coordinator that I was dealing with was Colin and his last name escapes me at the moment. We also had it as all of the west as Chris somebody wrote that in there. West was -- there was a lady by the name of Kathy. There was Chris. There was James Bauder. I don’t know Kathy’s other name, her last name. Southwest they have Ben -- that would be myself. Ben, I don’t have his last name. He’s ADD Trucking. We have myself and Tim and Herald Yonker. The GTA was David Steinberg. We also had in Ontario -- we have Mike Benson and Andrew Dichter. Those were also associated with myself. Quebec was Joanie. I'm not sure of her last name. I know it starts with a P. The PC coordinator was Joanay (phonetic). Her last name, to the best of my knowledge is Paquette. I haven't checked my emails to give you that information 100 percent. I apologize. And New Brunswick, PEI -- Leanne, Indi and Ben. I have no idea what these two indications are on the map at this point. (VIDEO ENDS)
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. So I want to also have you indicate what transpired to change the leadership from what you've described there to what it ended up being.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be the direction of Freedom Corp and Keith Wilson and J.C. Siap (phonetic), I assume.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
You have a number of emails with interactions between various members.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With Chad.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah, okay. Can you bring those up?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no idea what they’re entitled.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Can you identify the number?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure. I’m going to rise at this point. All of this happened after the fact, well after the events in question and there is actually, as I understand, also potentially privileged records in here. I would like to ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Privilege means I would have had to sign on a privilege.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. We’re just ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- through me, sorry. So sir, with respect --- direction that this witness is limited with respects to relevance and materiality I think if you gave a direction that this witness is limited with respect to giving evidence regarding the timeframe up to and including, say, after the EA was no longer invoked, I believe that would be appropriate, sir.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
That’s okay with us. Our information is prior to the EA invocation.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, because I think as is probably obvious, we’re dealing with the declaration of the Emergency Act and so on.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah, that’s fine.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There may be things after. Okay.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I'm not talking about that. Actually, could you give a timeline where you saw difficulties begin and then just -- we have the numbers so when you indicate what document, we have the numbers.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Those documents were provided to me afterwards.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes, okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But they said they don’t want anything outside, after that timeframe.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, it’s about -- it’s information about what happened in ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, but they don’t want all the truth out. They only want selected truth out.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I know, but he didn’t confine us to ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think he did confine ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Again, it’s turning into a discussion. If it relates to events that occurred before the invocation, that can be relevant. I don’t know if it is but ultimately we’re concerned about the declaration of the emergency and the organization of the convoy, and its function or what happened in Ottawa. And if it’s related to that then tell us what it is and we can then think about whether we go to the documents. But I don’t know what we’re talking about.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. It’s documents that were generated in before the EA. But we can just talk about the meetings, what was happening when there was ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
One of the first meetings that I went into was with Tom Quiggin, Chris, TBOF, James Pelozzo (phonetic). I don’t believe there were any lawyers present at that time. Tom Quiggin had come in and looked at Tamara and said, “This is all because of you.” I asked Chris to deal with that and to solve that issue so that people understood that that was not exactly true. Her fundraising did amazing. She did a great job. But she did not start the convoy. And I didn’t want that to go on, that fake kind of presentation, I guess. I don't know. I wanted it to be cleared up. It ended up that Chris asked me to not divide, not to create an issue, to go along with things. And we repeatedly had those conversations amongst us, Chris and I, for me repeatedly asking him to clear up this fake narrative that had been presented and that just kept being presented.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. Also, you had mentioned to me a meeting that you went to in which your character was assaulted.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would have been on a Zoom call thereafter, though.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Oh, it was on a Zoom call ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
After ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
--- after the emergency?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, well after.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay, we’ll leave that one, then.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s why I was saying some of that is well after.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah, some of it. Okay, so the emails concerning the new leadership, like who became the leader or who directed the convoy, at what point? Can you pinpoint the period of time, like roughly, not, you know, a specific date because it’s a process? But at what point did you recognize that the -- it had been taken over?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As soon as we got to Ottawa, there were issues, and they continued and started to magnify.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. At any point did you feel that you were specifically undermined and targeted?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, it just seemed like - - I provided the lawyers with a complete list of organizers. Not one of those names showed up on the Freedom Convoy documents for the NFP. My name didn’t show up on there. I understood that the Freedom Convoy Corp -- dealing with the monies that we had raised as a team, and we were to be a team. My name didn’t show up. I was obviously being omitted.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. Who did you -- who do you regard as the -- how do you say, “the new leader”? Like, who was giving direction after you guys were kind of ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It seemed we took a lot of direction from Keith Wilson.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. Do you have any evidence for that?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just in whatever documentation that I’ve provided.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. So can we can be specific. Just I’ve got -- I’ve got the titles ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Again, that would be after the EA.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I’ve got the titles and then there’s the ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a video where he’s telling people to come to Ottawa. I do not know what video that is.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. And there’s -- I don’t know the number for the -- just a second here.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m looking for it. Hang on a minute.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe you could just -- it may be helpful if you sort of summarize what it is that you’re trying to give as in terms of the story ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and we can leave the documents. They’re in the record and, if need be, we’ll turn them up. But ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay, I know what it is. It’s an interview with the Commission and Keith Williams -- Wilson, I’m sorry, Keith Wilson.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s Keith Wilson’s witness statement; is that ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- what you’re referring to?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes, for the Commission.
The Registrar (POEC)
So the document ID for that would be WTS58. I’m not sure how many zeros. I would note that that’s -- sorry, WTS00000058. It is an interview statement that would require leave.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So is that what you want to refer to because that -- or is there a need for that?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Is there a need for the document?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, let’s ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it this one that we’re referring to?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you indicate the three places that we wanted to focus?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, if you could turn up the witness statement and let’s see where we go with this.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah, we’d like it brough up and she’s going to identify. What’s that -- assistance -- these is the kind of thing she needs assistance for. Or do you have it? You have it, okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So which page are you looking at?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
It starts on page 2.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And on the second paragraph.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Second paragraph, page two.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Paragraph -- which paragraph was it, four?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Page 2, paragraph 2.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so -- and ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Oh, yes, okay. That paragraph, if -- do you want me to read it or do you want to read it?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you wouldn’t mind.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. "Wilson found the TBOF leader in the Arc Hotel and informed them that the Freedom Convoy organizers would be doing the press conference. Lich told Wilson that she was not in a position to respond to all the questions that may be posed by the press. Wilson agreed to lead the press conference. He decided the event needed to be focused with a clear message. Around this time, Wilson met with Daniel Bulford. Bulford suggested he speak at the press conference about the convoy’s work liaisoning with the police regarding safety and emergency vehicle access. Wilson agreed Bulford should also speak at the press conference." (As read). So we’re -- the position is that that statement indicates that ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
--- he’s taken a leadership role with regard to the members of the freedom convoy. That’s - --
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, the witness -- it’s -- it should come from the witness, I think.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what is -- what are you trying to -- why are you referring to this comment, then?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, Keith Wilson was writing -- writing the speeches and directing what we said. Many times, he came into a conference room and he goes, “Let’s get the messaging straight,” and he said, “What are we here for? Mandates. What mandates. All mandates.” This was the message that started the convoy. So was he out of touch with what was going on? Did somebody not fill him in? This message was already in place.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So anything further you’d ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
There was one document there that he distributed to everyone with regard to plane -- people - - persons coming in on plane; what’s the name of that document?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he says that in this one as well. I don’t think we marked but he did make the statement that he came board on a flight with -- as others that he picked up along the way.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. What did that letter say? It was addressed to all of the convoy organizers, was it?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not sure what you’re referring to but if we’re still on this document ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
The one about the planes now.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What page are you referring to?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
We’re trying to go to another document.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I’m speaking to the witness.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know where the document is; I’m sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not sure which one we’re referring to. This is why I had some help from Rebecca because everything got jumbled this morning when it was sent back to us. I have no idea where my documents are at this point. I find it extremely unfair that this has happened. If they would have left the naming that I had on the documents, I would have been able to pull these up for you and we could have referenced and Rebecca and I -- or Jane and I would have been able to be more effective up here.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe somebody can help her to find that.
The Registrar (POEC)
If we’re able to get the title of the original document or more information about it, we can try to assist in identifying it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As I understand, it’s a notice ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Rebecca has a list of the documentation. If she could come up here, she can show me what it is that we’re pulling, if that would be all right with everyone.
The Registrar (POEC)
Or if I can see a copy, I can take a look.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
The Registrar (POEC)
Yeah, we can even ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. Okay, come on up. Let’s just get it done. We’re her to move it along and all the help we can get.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m sorry.
Rebecca Shepherd (Brigitte Belton)
That’s okay. That’s okay. (SHORT PAUSE)
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Jane, it says: "On February 2nd, Wilson travelled to Ottawa on a chartered flight with Ewa." I'm sorry, Ewa.
Rebecca Shepherd (Brigitte Belton)
Ewa.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm sorry. And I'm going to butcher your last name, so I'm just not going to do it: "...Dwayne Lich, Chad Eros and others, Wilson and Ewa boarded the flight in Edmonton, and others were picked up along the way."
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
(Off mic)
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's not what you were looking for?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
(Off mic)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to speak into ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
...on the plane. When ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The email where we were instructed not to talk about anything to do with the plane?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes, that's the one I'm ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was a Signal message.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yeah. Do we have it?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know what it's been numbered, and I'm not sure ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. Maybe you can just testify to that if you remember now which one that was.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The email was to a group of us in regards to they had found out somehow about the plane and they were curious whether the lawyers and Chad and Mr. Lich had come in and followed mandate requirements. I didn't think it was a big deal, but we were told we were not allowed to talk about it.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Well, who were you told that by?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Keith Wilson.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. Are there any other emails?
Rebecca Shepherd (Brigitte Belton)
Commissioner, may I stay here to help her read her documents?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Rebecca Shepherd (Brigitte Belton)
Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Is there anything further you ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
I think we'll leave that. She had some other ones, but... There was just one more item. Actually, two more items, but one, the CB -- now, I'm frustrated too. CBSA, the letter that you wrote to the CBSA, and their response.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. We don't have it. Okay, the CBSA letter came in December, and it basically made no accommodations for those that couldn't wear a mask, those that - - they just wouldn't make accommodations. And I had had a PHAC there at one point in February of 2021, and they woman's name was Jessica, and she had given me exemptions. My company that I was working for at the time even wrote a letter based on her name on the face mask requirements from PHAC that they give you. She wrote her name, said that if there was any problems just to refer to her. That never happened. So every time I went through there was an issue. It depended on what agent I got, whether the issue was a small issue or a massive blown out fight between CBSA and myself.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. And you wrote a letter of complaint?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My husband actually took the initiative because I was done. I didn't plan on staying. I didn't plan on breathing. Couldn't do it.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
And ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I planned to end my life and give him everything, but for some reason I was here to cause a ruckus I guess. And I couldn't do it as fast as I would like to do. My husband went ahead and filed the complaint first on my behalf. CBSA wouldn't allow it. I told them that I was afraid of repercussion at the border, that this would continue to strain the relationship between myself and CBSA. And after their letter of basically not providing accommodation, following the rules of Ontario, which were -- you didn't have to be masked if you actually had a valid medical reason, I think going back to a terrible time in your life is a valid medical reason, and they minimised the suffering and the experience with them at CBSA. And I wrote them back and I said, "Please don't underestimate what you've done." I had at that point started on a downward spiral of rapid weight loss. My southbound trips were fine, but my northbound trips were unable to sleep, tossing and turning, not eating, losing rapid weight, shaking driving up to CBSA. At first, it was just a little bit, then it became more and more strenuous, more stressful, and it just started compiling. Shaking driving from Texas to Ontario and actually being so overwrought on the second day that I had to take a day, and I couldn't move, I couldn't get out of bed. I had to take a day to kind of get my stuff together and continue on. So it was a very traumatic experience, although CBSA thinks they were just doing their job.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
So after you got the response back from CBSA, you wrote to various MPs and other officials. Do -- can you state the names of those individuals and roughly what you were asking them for or what to do?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was asking for help. Help. I wanted help. I wanted someone to help me. Some of those messages I believe start with "9-1-1. "Help. I need help." Randy Hillier, Roman Baber, Lianne Rood, maybe even Monte McNaughton, I know there were letters to him. I went federal, I went provincial. Nobody listened. Nobody helped.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
What was your ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't want to listen to your staff member when I'm having an issue that is life- changing, I want to talk to you. I want to sit down with you, whether it's with a Tim Horton's coffee or a bottle of water, and let's figure out the problem and find some solutions. But those weren't available.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And ---
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
How many of those emails did you send?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Approximately 32.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Okay. So I just have one last statement. You indicated to me that your grandfather had given you an explanation of the conditions under totalitarianism or communism. You recounted that to me. Can you recount it here?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, it was November 11th. I was 14, and I was visiting, and being a teenager with attitude I sat while the services started and the minute of silence. My grandfather grabbed me by the back of the shirt, by the back of the collar, lifted me up and he said, "You'll stand here and you'll respect our dad." Afterwards, after the time had passed on the television, I remember we were watching it on the television, I went to sit back down, and he made me stand for a full minute. After -- when we were done I was ordered to go to the kitchen table. I sat with him while he explained to me what it was like to be in Nazi Germany. He told me about the snitch lines, that if you wanted your neighbour's piano and they weren't going to give it to you, you just called up the Nazi snitch lines and they would take care of the family and you would go and get their belongings. They -- he talked to me about children who would go to school and the teachers would ask "What did your parents talk about last night?", and they would come home and find their families murdered because they said bad things about Hitler. The warning signs were here. We had people snitching on people at Christmastime enjoying family members, because there might have been sick people in a home that that person doesn't own. And then we watched Quebec police officers pull people out of those homes, throw them to the ground and arrest them because they were spending time with their family. We were headed down the road that my grandfather talked to -- talked to me about. I don't want to live that way. I want to live the way we have been in Canada. I want us to be united again. I want us to look at people and smile as we walk down the street. That works everywhere but the GTA. I mean, I want us to get back to where we were in 2019, that's all I want. It's not that much to ask for. We're not that far away. And we need to stop yelling at people and dividing and pitting each other against each other. We have a Prime Minister that was a former drama teacher and all he has done is -- has made Canada full of drama. He's very good at what he does.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that was the last question. Thank you.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Do you believe that the Canadian Bill of Rights will help maintain our freedom providing ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that's relevant to what we're doing here, but I'll let it go, but, please, we've heard your message, I think.
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
Yes, I understand.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Providing it's allowed to be addressed in court, so I do believe that it's still valid and still exists.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay?
Jane Scharf, Counsel (Brigitte Belton)
That's it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No questions, sir, for the Freedom Corp.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have just one little -- trying to understand my notes, so it shouldn't be long. You talked about ADT Canada asking you or contacting you about Windsor, and I just I -- my note isn't clear.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
ADT Canada was a company. I just got the ADT phone number. I know Ben was one of the heads -- had owned the company, but the number came from the company number, so I can't recall who I was talking to at that time. It very may well have been Ben, but I'm not sure.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what did they ask you?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If the Windsor border should be blocked and absolutely not, I said.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I thought there was something -- and I have a note about slow roll.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, continue to slow roll, which is what the whole convoy was originally built on was that we would slow roll in a convoy together across Canada.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So this call was from ADT Canada someone, and it had to do with the Ambassador Bridge, was it, or was it the Bluewater?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was Ambassador.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was Ambassador? And you said slow roll, so would this have been before the Ottawa -- the 28th? Or just trying to get the date of the call.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, no, this would have been before the Windsor blockade happened. I was asked should it happen, and I said no.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You said slow roll.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Slow roll as had we been. What happened was, a lot of the convoy came to Ottawa, but in each region, there were people that couldn't make that trip, so they continued supporting us in their region.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I'm just trying to understand also about your pickup truck in Ottawa. You said you turned around when you got here and went -- and because you had a pickup truck you could turn around and go to Arnprior I think it was?
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I did go -- I went to Ottawa west first, to a family member, and then I went up to Arnprior. I actually have a video on my Tik Tok where I'm telling Chris to hurry up because I haven't got to meet him yet. Him and Tamara, I think, I'm saying, "Hurry up, guys." But in all fairness, they didn't know I was going there to meet them, so I do have a Tik Tok out on that day.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have to be fair.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had to be fair. I mean, I couldn't bust them up for not being ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So then you picked up that convoy, went into Ottawa and you described that and so on. Did you then stay there? That's what I'm trying to get at.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I wasn't there for quite a few days. I actually came in and out of the city. And as long as you know how to snake through the city, there was no issue. I got in I believe it was on or about the Wednesday before I was offered a room, and I was told by Tom Marazzo that I should get a room there because I needed to be more accessible instead of coming in and working late, going home -- well, going home, going to my family's home and coming back in the morning so.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just to close up on this, and when you would come back, where would your pickup truck go? Would it become part of a convoy again either on ---
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, no, sir. I paid for parking and when -- I have those parking passes if you'd like to see them. And I also have the little pass from the ARC where I parked my vehicle. I never parked on the street.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's what I was trying to understand.
Brigitte Belton (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I'm respectful.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not -- I'm just trying to get the information. I'm -- okay, so that ends I think for the day, and it's a long day today and the good news is it'll be a long day tomorrow. So 9:30 please.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is adjourned. La Commission est ajournée.
Upon adjourning at 7:14 p.m. NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA Ottawa, Ontario