Andrew Gibbs

Andrew Gibbs spoke 281 times across 4 days of testimony.

  1. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Good afternoon, Commissioner. Mr. Ayotte, my name is Andrew Gibbs and I’m counsel for the Government of Canada.


  2. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Bonjour. I have about four documents and above five minutes, so if this seems rushed, it is. The first document I would ask to call up is OTT00010005. And while it’s coming up, this is the application record from the City of Ottawa with respect to the injunction on February 13th/14th. Do you recognize this document?


  3. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you provided an Affidavit in support of this application?


  4. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in your Affidavit you detail that the demonstrators were breaching City bylaws?


  5. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that it was stretching City resources; is that correct?


  6. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    You also state in the affidavit -- I believe it's at paragraph 10, that you had visited various sites, observed personally and were advised by operational staff, both bylaw and regulatory services and fire services to gather the information for the purposes of the affidavit; is that correct?


  7. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you swore this affidavit on February 13? Sorry, if we could maybe go to it? It should be on about page 4, I believe.


  8. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Down two more pages. And two more, to the actual affidavit starts. Right here. And it's sworn February 13th, 2022.


  9. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Do you see that?


  10. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And do you adopt the information in this affidavit as true?


  11. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Now, at paragraph -- paragraph 10 of the affidavit, you state that you're monitoring, using CCTV cameras and you were doing this out of concern for public safety and the ability of first responders and other City services to provide emergency and other services to downtown and across the City. Do you see that in paragraph 10?


  12. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so if we turn to -- would you -- based on the information that’s in this affidavit, would you agree that the situation in downtown Ottawa at that time was fluid?


  13. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And volatile?


  14. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And unpredictable?


  15. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    If you turn to page 37, please, this is a series of photographs of Exhibit A. Unfortunately, it's on its side. This is one of the photographs taken from the CCTV cameras; is that correct?


  16. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in the bottom left-hand corner, it states the location?


  17. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Metcalfe and Wellington. And in the top left-hand corner, the date?


  18. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    February 5th. And it's, I believe, 2:00 p.m.?


  19. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    What is the white bar that we see in the middle of the photograph?


  20. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    That’s a large crane. Is it an industrial crane?


  21. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And are all those trucks in the background, is that the lineup of trucks on Wellington?


  22. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And did you know what was in those trucks?


  23. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Now, if we go to page 2, I'll just move off of this document, but I would like to go to page 2 where the list of exhibits are included, and I would commend this to the Commission, this entire affidavit with the exhibits. There are a series of photographs of fuel depots at Coventry Road, the RCGT park. You'll see Exhibit D, photographs of fires and fuel stockpiles at Confederation Park; Exhibit E, the bylaw call logs and fire complaints dated February 4th to 12th, 2022; Exhibit F, CCTV images of fireworks on February 5th, 2022; and Exhibit G and so forth are the details with respect to call logs. Is that where the various complaints are registered for open fires ---


  24. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    -- and parking violations?


  25. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. So in the interests of time, I would now like to move to three quick documents. If we can bring up OTT00004061? You had mentioned earlier that your officers were directed not to ticket in the red zone; is that correct?


  26. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you'd mentioned that that really came into play on February 4th?


  27. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    The 29th of January? Okay. This email is from February 4th. Roger Chapman, he reports to you?


  28. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And he states specifically, if you look at the second paragraph: "First and foremost, our top priority and responsibility is ensuring the safety of staff. As you have no doubt gathered, this is a potentially volatile situation and there is a significant difference between ticketing illegally parked vehicles and ticketing a person for a violation, where the latter presents a much greater risk of confrontation." Do you see that?


  29. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And do you agree with those statements?


  30. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in response to the questions you just received from my friend, Mr. Miller, with respect to the lack of tickets or the number of tickets and very little charges laid for assault, would you agree that where the directions to the officers were to ticket vehicles and not people, that is one possible explanation for that discrepancy?


  31. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Skipping right to the bottom: "Again, Officer safety is our first priority and therefore, we will not be enforcing other by-law violations in the demonstration zone at this time." Demonstration zone, that’s the red zone?


  32. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Next document, OTT00006781, please. These are listed as updates, EOCCG Update 15 from yourself?


  33. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Do you recognize this document?


  34. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And would you agree that the purpose of this document was to provide accurate and timely information to your City colleagues?


  35. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    To your City leadership team. Thank you. The date of this email is Friday, February 11th, 2022, at 7:53 p.m.?


  36. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in the third paragraph, we see: "Evidence of external influence persists. The Ottawa Hospital has received some disturbing calls, mostly from the United States, which have been reported to police." PIMR -- what does that stand for?


  37. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. "--- has paused public comments on the City of Ottawa's corporate Facebook and Instagram accounts for the duration of the City's state of emergency due to an apparent coordinated effort to spam the City's feed with hateful or toxic comments including racist comments or misinformation and rumours." Is that accurate information?


  38. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Last, very quickly, Document OTT00008754. This is the operational update 24 on February 22nd. Can we have that document please? It's 8740. And it references on the third paragraph -- this is again from you. Do you recognize this?


  39. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. "CHEO received a false bomb threat yesterday evening." Can you remind the Commissioner what CHEO stands for?


  40. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So the Children's Hospital received a bomb threat. "While false calls to 9-1-1 have been reduced, there are indications that outside interference persists." Is that correct? There was a bomb threat to the Children's Hospital on February 22nd?


  41. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Now, Mr. Ayotte, do you have any evidence that that bomb threat was connected to the convoy?


  42. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    But would you agree that that was part of the challenge in these events?


  43. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And the mayor had testified earlier today to what he referred to as "Whack-a-Mole". Is it not correct and fair to say that you couldn't tell what was coming next?


  44. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you very much. Those are my questions.


  45. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Good afternoon, Supt. Drummond, Commissioner.


  46. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    My name is Andrew Gibbs, and I'm part of the counsel team representing the Government of Canada. You've already answered many of the questions that I had prepared for you today, so I'll focus in my examination on just a couple of areas. I'll use my time for that. First of all, we heard earlier this week from Interim Chief Bell, who has also testified that this demonstration was exceptionally challenging for our PLT members from the perspective that there were so many different people and so many different organizations and so many different groups. Do you agree with that assessment?


  47. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in fact, I think he estimated the number at 8 to 10 different groups representing 50 to 100 political agendas. Does that sound like a fair estimate?


  48. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And he, in fact, said that those leaders, organizers, and groups changed on a regular basis, and many of them had different agendas. And he concluded by saying, "There probably could not have been a more complex and challenging environment for our PLT members to work in." Would you agree with that?


  49. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. And for the record, those references are to the transcript WPS8 - or sorry WTS8 at page 97, line 13 to 21, and page 194, lines 4 to 8. So there were a large number of factions involved?


  50. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And we've heard in your testimony today that there was a group at Rideau and Sussex?


  51. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And I believe you said they were very difficult to deal with?


  52. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    The documents refer to Farfadaa?


  53. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Are you familiar with Farfadaa?


  54. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    are they subject of attention of the police force for criminal activity?


  55. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. There was a group known as the East Convoy; is that correct?


  56. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    No, there was another group Coventry Road, and I believe they were led by Mike Clark?


  57. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that’s also referred to -- the Coventry Road is also referred to as RCTG?


  58. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And JetForm Park.


  59. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    The East Convoy group, I believe, was the one that put forward a request for a meeting with the Governor General Simon, the Prime Minister, and the Senate Speaker, George Furey; do you recall that?


  60. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Then you have the Freedom Convoy Group ---


  61. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- which was led by Tom Marazzo and Chris Barber?


  62. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    You met with them as part of the deal with the City?


  63. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Was Tamara Lich at that meeting?


  64. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Was Pat King at that meeting?


  65. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So did the Freedom Convoy group -- they told you that they don’t have control over the Rideau/Sussex group during that meeting?


  66. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And they told you they don’t have control over the Coventry group?


  67. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it was unclear who else they would be able to control but that they would try?


  68. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So in the end, the deal falls apart.


  69. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And there are references in the documents to Ms. Lich on Twitter apparently stepping away or trying to clarify that you’re not leaving, they’re just moving to Wellington.


  70. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay ---


  71. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- that’s fair. Were you aware that there was a separate video posted by another organizer suggesting that this agreement was a lie, the letters were a lie and that it was fake?


  72. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. If we can turn to Document OPP00003427, and this is an OPP Operational Intelligence Report and it’s dated February 14th. Are you familiar with these reports?


  73. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. If you turn to page 3, it states: "The organizer […] posted a video on the 13th of February 2022. The following is a summary: The letter is spreading around that trucks will move is a lie. […] advised the truckers that no one leaves; it is part of the counter-protest ‘shit’. It is all a lie. ‘Do not leave Ottawa. Do not leave the residential areas. Do not back out. You are good to go. Stand your ground.’" And it continues. Do you see that information?


  74. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So would you agree with me, then, that this video being posted by an organizer suggests that there was no coalescence or agreement amongst the list of organizers that my friend, Mr. Miller, mentioned to you a few moments ago.


  75. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Dissention amongst the groups. And so, in fact -- thank you, Mr. Clerk -- your witness statement mentions that the protest leadership clearly had not achieved the consensus they claimed they were going to have.


  76. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So, in fact, there was no core group of organizers. PLT was just doing what it could with whoever would talk to them.


  77. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So you ---


  78. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And is it fair to say that part of the challenge in moving all of the trucks was that everybody wanted to go downtown onto Wellington?


  79. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And we’d heard there were potentially 322 trucks from one of the organizers?


  80. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes. And there was no room for everybody on Wellington?


  81. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so did it become a safety issue with them all trying to come down to Wellington?


  82. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you stated that there was no movement of trucks off site?


  83. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And there was a group on Bank Street who refused to move?


  84. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that was a new group that developed that day?


  85. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    They weren’t identified to you, perhaps, as an organizer or as someone with influence ---


  86. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- who could prevent people from leaving.


  87. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. So is it fair to say -- and you’d mentioned earlier -- that this was a very challenging protest to manage ---


  88. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- and that, I believe you said, there were weekend surges?


  89. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So the groups were fluid.


  90. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And there were various camps just outside of Ottawa ---


  91. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- where people would go and then come back?


  92. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you didn’t really have a line of sight of what was happening in all of those camps?


  93. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  94. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so the situation was fluid?


  95. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    It was volatile?


  96. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it was unpredictable?


  97. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you’d mentioned that there were some current-serving police officers that were in and supportive of the protesters?


  98. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    All right. I’d like to turn, then, to some of the -- another issue on the nature of the protest. And so again turning to Interim Chief Bell, he testified that over the weekend of February 11, 12, 13 -- so this is going into the third weekend now in Ottawa ---


  99. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- he had extreme concerns for the safety of our members, for the safety of our community based on volatility and escalation of violence, indirect confrontational interactions with our members. The situation at this point was becoming exceptionally more volatile and you could see it escalate almost on an hour-by-hour basis. Would you agree with that?


  100. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Now, just a couple of quick documents ---


  101. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay, thank you. I would like to just refer you in particular -- or to ask you, were you aware of the elements -- or that there were elements of right-wing extremism involved in this protest?


  102. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in fact, in the -- you were sent a report that had been prepared by the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. It was sent to Chief Sloly and you were copied on that, and the report was called “An Online Environmental Scan of Right-wing Extremism” and, in particular, they had done draft intelligence report on the convoy in Canada -- in Ottawa; is that correct?


  103. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So, for the record, that’s OPS00009428 and OPS00009429. And in particular, I would just ask you about the last page of that report, the last paragraph. In summary, just because I’m short of time, but I recommend to the Commission to read the entire report: "There are comments and posts online stating that organizing and planning for a proposed DC Convoy…" That’s Washington, DC: "…is beginning to cement. Taking into account the events in Ottawa, the anger and hostility driving much of the campaign, the protest movement’s acceptance and support of conspiracies and misinformation, and implicit and explicit links to extremist groups…" which are identified in the report -- or in the draft intel report: "…there are some glaring comparisons to the Capitol insurrection on January 6th, 2021." Did you agree with that at the time?


  104. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Were you concerned of the similarities?


  105. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And we know that now.


  106. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    It was a risk that was on your mind at the time?


  107. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Those are my questions.


  108. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    This applies to all of us, I assume? The note about the translators, the reminder for the translators is still here.


  109. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Good morning.


  110. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    My name is Andrew Gibbs, and I'm part of the counsel team for the Government of Canada.


  111. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So we've a fair bit of testimony this morning about the start of the convoy and the general organisation and the factions or divisions within the groups that preceded it. Is that fair?


  112. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So the spark, as I understand it, was you and Ms. Belton ---


  113. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- meeting over TikTok?


  114. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you eventually organised with others to come to Ottawa to drop the border mandates?


  115. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that was your sole objective?


  116. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So to be clear, then, the others that eventually joined or started participating may have had other goals and objectives?


  117. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you're aware of some of those goals and objectives?


  118. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    For example, Canada Unity was seeking to sign an MOU that Commission Counsel spoke to you about?


  119. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And others were seeking to I'll say "overthrow", but replace the Government of Canada?


  120. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    I think you had mentioned you attended a Facebook Live interview?


  121. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And Pat King was hosting it?


  122. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And I believe the MOU was presented during that?


  123. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And do you recall Pat King saying that the objective was to tell the government who's in control?


  124. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And to give them pink slips?


  125. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And a pink slip, you would understand, as removing them from their jobs? Firing them, essentially?


  126. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. Now, as the group started joining you, I think we saw one TikTok video where you mentioned that -- this is -- and I believe your testimony as well today was that never expected this level of participation in your wildest dreams?


  127. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So many, many people joined this protest?


  128. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in fact, it became a multi-purpose protest?


  129. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And so during the Facebook Live, Mr. Bauder suggests that there will be a number of events that occur. And in fact, in addition to the Facebook Live, which was referenced at COM00000829, there is a separate video where you and the other organisers, Ms. Belton, Mr. Bauder, and Mr. King, are interviewed by Benita Pedersen. Do you recall that interview?


  130. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. It's in the record at COM00000838. And during that interview, and we can bring it up if you like, it again is a lengthy interview, over an hour and a half long, but it does speak to the activities or events that Mr. Bauder proposes to have. He also shares the MOU again, and suggests that one of the events will be to present that MOU to the Government of Canada or representatives thereof.


  131. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay? The last point that I would make, just with respect to that video, but I'll move on to the basic idea here, that there were, as you say, a number of factions or groups that were involved?


  132. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes? Okay. And you didn't have a vetting procedure to check who was going to be there?


  133. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so as the announcements and the invitations started to come, the convoy that was planned, with Mr. Bauder's logistics, started to catch fire?


  134. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you had mentioned that all truckers are different?


  135. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it's a bit like herding cats?


  136. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And if you put 200 in a room, somebody's going to get a black eye or a broken nose?


  137. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    How many did you bring to Ottawa?


  138. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And is it fair to say that you couldn't control them all?


  139. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Is it also not correct that you had a large flag on the back of your truck?


  140. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And what did it say?


  141. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Well, you -- I believe that -- perhaps you'll agree with me that there were many flags around town with the message "F Trudeau"?


  142. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So there was a decal on your truck with that slogan?


  143. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And would you agree that that became a bit of a rallying cry?


  144. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And were there other messages against the Liberals?


  145. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  146. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Same underlying message?


  147. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Right, but understood by ---


  148. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- the crowd as being the same message.


  149. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And encouraging children to share that message.


  150. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. You’d mentioned to Commission Counsel that you were frustrated with the mandates.


  151. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you were -- I believe your testimony was that you were very angry.


  152. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And did this protest and convoy and general sentiment that you and Ms. Belton started, did that inspire others?


  153. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    As part of your group, and this -- when I say “Your group” I’m referring specifically to the Freedom Convoy 2022; I think it’s you and Ms. Belton at one point, and Ms. Lich?


  154. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And Mr. Bolden -- Bauder, sorry, by that point is outside of the group?


  155. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And Mr. King has been kind of pushed ---


  156. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- to the side a bit?


  157. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yeah? Okay. He still has a large following.


  158. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And I think we -- well, we heard reference to a video about social media on TikTok where Mr. King was attributed as saying that Mr. Trudeau was going to catch a bullet; you recall that?


  159. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. Perhaps I can show it to you now. If we were to bring up, Mr. Clerk, OP00007967, and we’ll just -- I’d like to just play the first 20 seconds of it. It goes on. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)


  160. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Now, I believe you suggested that Mr. King had told you previously in a conversation that this was edited and taken out of context.


  161. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you will agree that it came to light during the protest.


  162. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Right, but it was posted during the convoy.


  163. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And you yourself admitted, I believe, to Commission Counsel of being a bit of an internet -- or troll?


  164. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And having previously posted nasty racist and anti-Muslim content.


  165. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you have a significant following now?


  166. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes. And Mr. King also has a significant following.


  167. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    At the time?


  168. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And we saw a discussion between you and Ms. Lich referred to by Commission Counsel where you and Ms. Lich discussed the need to keep him around if possible because of his following.


  169. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So you’re aware that the Freedom Convoy group -- this would be your group -- put out daily briefings.


  170. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And these daily briefings, did you have input into them?


  171. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Looked after in terms of fuel and mechanics and ---


  172. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And would you agree that the daily updates, the purpose of those was to inform the participants in your group of the daily events?


  173. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it was circulated each day?


  174. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it would be circulated in the morning, presumably?


  175. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- with the weather for the day


  176. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So if we can turn to HRF00000009, and this should be dated January 28th, if I’m not mistaken. Does this look like one of the updates that the Freedom Convoy 2022 group would have circulated?


  177. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. Well, we’ll just walk through it briefly because there are a few of them that I’d like to bring to your attention. This one is dated January 28th. It provides that the Saturday weather is sunny, low of minus 21, et cetera, for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And then it’s giving the general update on the overview; you see the “Overview” paragraph there: “...will be the biggest protest movement in Canada - ever.” Would you agree with that?


  178. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And if you scroll to Item 8, I just want to bring this to your attention because I believe you said earlier that the only purpose of this, your group, Freedom Convoy 2022, was to end the border mandate.


  179. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Oh, okay.


  180. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So is there somebody we should be speaking to with respect to these daily updates?


  181. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So you’d agree that you were one of the faces of the Freedom Convoy 2022.


  182. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    With the largest social media presence.


  183. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    By others in the power struggle, presumably.


  184. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So Item 8 states: “Of note, Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland is on the Board of Trustees for the World Economic Forum. She is a key figure there along with President Xi of China, Bill Gates and other globalists. It was the Global Economic Forum that [started]: It is 2030. You will own nothing -- that stated [sorry]: It is 2030. You will own nothing and you will be happy.” Had you heard this message before?


  185. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. There are a series of these daily briefings, often making reference to the World Economic Forum, and there is one at HRF0000029 on February 8th that refers to, at the top -- can we pull that one up, please? Again, this is February 8th, and there’s an image of the: “Covid 19: The Great Reset is from the World Economic Forum. Deputy Prime Minister Freeland is on the Board of Trustees of the WEF.” Again, had you heard of The Great Reset before?


  186. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And what is the nature of your understanding of this book, The Great Reset?


  187. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. If you'll scroll to the bottom of this, there's a reference -- a section that deals with the -- if you go to the next page, tow trucks, refusing service. You see that section?


  188. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    "According to Ottawa City Manage[r] Steve Kanellakos..." Who testified earlier about the difficulty of obtaining tow trucks to the Commission, "...all tow truck companies under contract to the City of Ottawa are refusing to provide heavy tow truck services. This has been [-- sorry, this has been] a common occurrence right across Canada as tow truck operators are considering their long term relationships with the trucking industry as well as the Canadian public. Is that consistent with your understanding?


  189. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. If we now turn to February 16th at HRF00000052, and this is the last or second to last daily update I'll bring you to. This one begins with a photograph of Prime Minister Trudeau with World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab. Do you see that?


  190. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And underneath, there's a description of a, "Video of Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to the World Economic Forum. A video has emerged World Economic Forum Leader Klaus Schwab describing Trudeau's loyalty to this globalist organization. The video appears to have been taken in 2016 just after Trudeau became the Prime Minister..." Do you see that?


  191. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And if we scroll to the bottom, there's a Twitter link there with TheNo1Waffler. If we scroll to the bottom, it ends with a photo of Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.


  192. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Do you see that photo?


  193. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And the caption reads, "Finance Minister Freeland seen here at a World Economic Forum event, says the government can arbitrarily seize bank accounts, crowd funding money and cryptocurrencies." Now this is issued on February 16th, this newsletter to your group, the faction of Freedom Convoy 2022; correct?


  194. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Now on February 17th, another post is issued HRF00000083, which is a special notice issued by the group.


  195. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    I need about five minutes on these two points, sir, and they'll tie the two together.


  196. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you.


  197. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes. You have the post, and this is a, "Freedom Convoy 2022 Reaffirms its Commitment to Peaceful Demonstration" Correct?


  198. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in this notice, you'll see that it expressly condemns -- if we scroll down, one, two, three, fourth paragraph, "Pat King does not speak for us. We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others." Do you see that?


  199. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that accurately reflects your views at that time?


  200. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    But in terms of your views of Pat King ---


  201. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- that's an accurate statement from ---


  202. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- your perspective?


  203. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And also, talk of violence from him or others?


  204. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Were you aware, sir, that the night before, on February 16th, following the other notice with the photograph of Chrystia Freeland at the bottom, that Deputy Prime Minister Freeland received a death threat?


  205. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So if we can turn to PB.CAN.00001757_REL? And again, you had said earlier, your testimony here today is that you had no control over the people who had come to the protest in response to your open invitation.


  206. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so have you seen this email before?


  207. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    It's sent on Wednesday, February 16th at 1:23 p.m. to Chrystia Freeland, MP, and it reads, "I declare war on all the CANADIAN government for lying about covid-19. Chrystia Freeland will get a bullet to the head. Prepare to feel (our) WRATH! You'res [sic] truly, The CANADIAN covid government resistance. We will visit you at your home this Friday at 6 pm, so you better be hidden and be placed into protection because we know where you live." And signed Larry Jenkins. I assume you would reject this statement in any such action?


  208. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. And the last question then is were you aware, sir, that on February 16th, the same day, the OPP apprehended someone in Ottawa who was wearing body armour and carrying a large knife along with other knives, a sword and machetes that were seized out of his truck?


  209. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. I will take you to OPS00011837.


  210. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you, sir. So last question then is would you agree with me that when you start a fire and fan the flames, it can get out of control, and you had no control over those other factions who had come to this protest?


  211. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    It's understood. And I believe, sir, that you'd also confirm that you were not always successful in your efforts to convince the participants to agree with you or to follow you?


  212. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Those are my questions.


  213. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Good afternoon, Ms. Belton.


  214. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    My name is Andrew Gibbs and I'm part of the counsel team for the Government of Canada. I have two quick areas of questions for you. The first area is with respect to -- it was touched on a little bit with the Commission's counsel with respect to some of the -- I won't call them fights, but disagreements, as you indicated, amongst the leadership group, and in particular, with respect to the handling of money by Tamara Lich. Did you have concerns about the handling of money by Ms. Lich?


  215. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. So do you recall posting something on Tik Tok expressing concern?


  216. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. If we can just call up the video, just for the record, it's PB.CAN.00001777.


  217. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  218. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you very much. And I only have one other question and it's on a particular document. We were provided -- the parties were provided with documents over the lunch break, about 216 documents that you had filed over the lunch break for us?


  219. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    With your team? Okay. And so I've only gotten through some of them. There was one document in particular I'd like your help just to understand so.


  220. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes, I think we're all in the same boat on that. If you can call up the video, please, the Tik Tok video?


  221. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    The other document then is BRB00000 -- sorry, 00000062. Do you recognize this document?


  222. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And for the sake of the Commission and others in the room who are perhaps less familiar with Telegraph, I'm starting to figure out Tik Tok, but what is Telegraph?


  223. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And is it a secure messaging platform?


  224. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. Fair. If you can focus in on the bottom left-hand corner, I believe it's item number three.


  225. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    There's a mention with respect to ---


  226. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    There's a reference to tow trucks, which is a common theme in the Commission -- before the Commission. And I'm just -- if we can perhaps shift a bit to the -- oh, I can see it up here perhaps. Were you aware that people in the tow truck industry were being encouraged not to provide tow truck services to the police?


  227. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So the message reads: "The most strategic and effective way to protest once you arrive in Ottawa is absolutely nothing. Park your truck on the road, turn off the engine, and let it sit there. No tow truck company would dare tow it away, and if they do, get it on video, and make sure everyone knows not to do business with them. Vote with your wallet." Does that capture the sentiment you just expressed?


  228. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So for them to assist the citizens of Ottawa and tow the trucks, or to assist the police and tow the trucks, that would result in not buying their services?


  229. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. Mr. Clerk, do we have the video now?


  230. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Yes. PB.CAN.00001777_REL. And for the record, Commissioner, I would have ended a lot earlier. I know I've burned a bit of my time in previous rounds, so this one, I hope -- here we are. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)


  231. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you said she threatened you in the TikTok video.


  232. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And what was the nature of that threat?


  233. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And if you did not? If you were silent?


  234. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. I have no further questions.


  235. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Good afternoon, Deputy Chief - --


  236. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- Commissioner. My name is Andrew Gibbs and I am one of the counsel with the Government of Canada. Just briefly touching on some of the testimony you’ve given already, you mentioned that the leadership was quite divided, and you used the word “faction”.


  237. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  238. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay. And so there were in fact multiple leaders and it made it very difficult to determine who was in charge.


  239. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    You also described the situation as “dynamic”. Would you say it was fluid?


  240. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  241. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)



  242. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And aggressive?


  243. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    At times. On February 10th, were there threats made to block or blockade the Windsor Police Services Headquarters?


  244. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And why would that have been a concern to you?


  245. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And for those of us who are not police officers, that would mean you couldn’t come and help people if they called 911?


  246. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Were there also threats to block the Windsor-Detroit Tunnel?


  247. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And the Windsor Airport?


  248. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And those threats did not materialize?


  249. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    But you couldn’t ignore them?


  250. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    You also mentioned, just in terms of general public safety and officer safety concerns, there was a bomb threat at the mayor’s house ---


  251. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- that also took resources? I believe you mentioned two to three police cars were there for a week or two?


  252. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    There was a bomb threat behind the police lines on February 12th; is that correct?


  253. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it turned out to be not credible?


  254. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    But the threat was made?


  255. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And it was investigated?


  256. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Was there also a drone flying over, a protester drone flying over the police enforcement operation on February 12th?


  257. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Okay, thank you. And you mentioned that it was cold and there was snow. The officers were putting in a lot of overtime?


  258. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So there was a lot of tension?


  259. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And I think you said people were burnt out?


  260. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    There was also a mention of children being involved. I believe the mayor mentioned that children were involved at the protest, and particularly when the police enforcement action was scheduled to take place on February 12th?


  261. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    What impact does the presence of children in a mass protest have on police operations?


  262. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Mr. Clerk, can we please turn up OPP00004539? And go to page 41 on this point. So Karel DeGraaf, you know who this is?


  263. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And this is an email from Karel DeGraaf to Dana Earley, the OPP Joint Commander, the unified command you mentioned earlier: "FYI regarding using children as a defensive tactic." And this is sent on February 11th. If you’ll scroll down, please, clerk, this appears to be an exchange of tweets. "Thank you. As more children with us, as less option to power for police. Children is our best weapon against them." And someone responds, essentially, that this is an evil strategy: "Children are not weapons or human shields. If this man wants to bring his family to a protest, he can do his research and should be aware of people who speak like you." Going down to the last tweet: "It is a war. They prepare for us with guns, cold water, gas." Is that consistent with the information that you were receiving with respect to children being used as, what you said, human shields?


  264. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Thank you. I only have a few minutes left. So I understand -- in summary, you’ve answered a lot of these questions already but I think you had mentioned that they were burnt out -- the officers were burnt out, and I think you believed -- I believe you said they were spread very thin across the province; is that correct?


  265. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So that would involve all police resources?


  266. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so you -- there are a series of documents. I won’t go through them but you were taken at one point to the justification for the 100 officers. And that, Mr. Clerk, is at WPS000000610. And Commission counsel took you to some of the basic numbers. I’d like to go to page 2 where you mentioned that -- scroll down a bit. I think it -- there should be a reference that says that: "Currently officers are being outnumbered and surrounded by protesters when confronted or approached."


  267. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Is that an accurate description?


  268. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you mentioned that you were trying to continue the regular Windsor policing at that time ---


  269. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    --- because regular city life involves all sorts of things that sometimes require police assistance?


  270. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And do you think it would be fair to say that every city in the province of Ontario would involve that type of requirements for their police services?


  271. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And they were also being stretched thin?


  272. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And you’ve mentioned that this would happen, essentially, across the country, would it not?


  273. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And so turning lastly to the resurgence, you mentioned that you were quite concerned -- or the Windsor Police Force were quite concerned, as was the mayor, that this -- they could return, the protesters could return.


  274. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in fact, Interim Chief Bellaire submitted an affidavit in support of the Windsor City motion to extend the injunction indefinitely; is that correct?


  275. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And I won’t pull it up, but Interim Chief Bellaire swore an affidavit, which is found at WSP0000049, and in particular at paragraphs 44 to 54, he states that based on -- and I'm paraphrasing, but based on monitoring of social media, demonstrators are asking more locals to join, more vehicles are travelling to the area. Social media indicating further action from protesters expected. "It's not over. Regroup. We are not done. Slow roll is next." And finally, "Civil war time." Anti-police comments are also observed and the February 15th convoy of several transport trucks from Ottawa en route to Windsor was intercepted by police.


  276. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And in fact, Justice Morawetz, based on that evidence and other evidence, granted the interim injunction indefinitely?


  277. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Now, you stated that you did not use the Emergencies Act, sir, but is it fair to say that that’s because this resurgence did not materialize?


  278. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    So in fact, we don’t know if it would have been needed?


  279. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And finally, with all of these local protests in all of the cities that you’d mentioned, including Sarnia, Toronto, Ottawa, Cornwall, Quebec City, Emerson, Coutts, and Surrey, British Columbia, and others, and the location and duration of a blockade is unpredictable, and when police resources are stretched thin and the officers are exhausted, would you agree that this leads to an increased risk of safety and security for the officers and the general public?


  280. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    And that would exist wherever those protests may pop up?


  281. Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)

    Those are my questions. Thank you very much, sir.