Volume 17 (November 4, 2022)
Volume 17 has 313 pages of testimony. 28 people spoke before the Commission, including 5 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Sandrine Martineau-Lupien.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Daniel Bulford - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 384 times)
- Tamara Lich - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 310 times)
- Jeremy MacKenzie - Diagolon (spoke 305 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 253 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 198 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 194 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 149 times)
- Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 130 times)
- Chris Deering - Convoy participants (spoke 125 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 109 times)
- Maggie Hope Braun - Convoy participants (spoke 109 times)
- Stephen Armstrong, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 71 times)
- Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 67 times)
- Sherif Foda, Counsel - Jeremy MacKenzie (spoke 65 times)
- Victor Ryan, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 61 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 60 times)
- Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 32 times)
- Stephen Aylward, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 27 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 26 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 22 times)
- Emilie Taman, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 19 times)
- Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 17 times)
- Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 16 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 7 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 2 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 1 time)
- Hatim Kheir, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 1 time)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Friday, November 4, 2022 at 9:31 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much. David Migicovsky for the Ottawa Police Service. I have a preliminary matter to raise, and I’m seeking your direction. It concerns the testimony of the panel of witnesses who are going to be appearing later today. So I’m happy -- I just wanted to alert you of it. I’ve advised my friends, Commission Counsel, and I’m in your hands as well; you want me to raise it now or wait till the witness has finished her cross-examination?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I’d suggest we deal with it after the witness has finished, unless there’s an urgency. And I think perhaps just have you advised the parties of the issue?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I advised Commission Counsel yesterday, and I heard back, and we’ve had some discussions. So certainly Commission Counsel is aware of our position. I have not had -- I heard back from Commission Counsel this morning, and so I have not yet advised my colleagues of the issue.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. It might be worthwhile, and I don’t know if you can do it by email or you want to do it orally, but just give a heads-up to the parties so that when we get to it, everybody will be -- have thought it through.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If that’s okay?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And we can deal with that a bit later, but I’d suggest we complete this and move onto that issue once we complete Ms. Lich. Okay. So unless there’s anything further, we can start the cross-examinations, and I believe the first is the Government of Canada. I can, but go ahead. It is not a problem with me, so go ahead, Mr. Champ.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just have another matter, Mr. Commissioner, later this morning.
MS. TAMARA LICH, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Ms. Lich. My name is Paul Champ; I’m lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I have some questions for you concerning your testimony yesterday. Now, I want to start with something, Ms. Lich, that I think we both agree on; you’re not a national security threat in any way?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe I am, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I also want to make sure that we’re clear on the record; as you know, I’ve able to see a lot of financial information and so forth in other proceedings and so forth, and you did everything you could to keep track of that money and deal with it responsibly, the money that was going to your account?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in no way did you ever divert any of that money towards yourself improperly? And I’m saying that, that’s what I’ve seen; you dealt very responsibly in every way you could with the money?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you also testified yesterday you wanted to come to Ottawa for the right reasons. And by that I mean you wanted to organize with other people, bring people together over that issue, that was important to you, and send a message to the government and to your fellow Canadians; that’s what you wanted to do in coming to Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you testified yesterday that you originally thought you just wanted to drive across Canada, stand in front of Parliament with some signs, and you thought that’s what the protest would be, is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- yes, essentially. I had no idea that it was going to become what it evolved into, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. But then once the enormous amounts of money started flowing in through GoFundMe and, you know, people were energized around that, it opened up other options of what this protest could look like; is that fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that everyone that was involved and that joined was in it to be listened to, to have their voices heard, as far as the mandates and the restrictions and the lockdowns went.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But it made other things possible; like, you were able to get the stages and the sound system, and the resources to cover fuel and so forth for a much longer period than you had originally anticipated; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The donations that came into GoFundMe, as we specified in the description, was for fuel to get them to Ottawa and home.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So...
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So -- but once you had a lot more, that opened up options that you could keep getting fuel to the trucks for a while, while they were here; that is part of the idea?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess that’s fair.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we saw some -- or I read a news story about some texts that you had with Mr. Barber.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I presume you’re aware of the news story and those texts?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I am.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in those texts, it’s my understanding that you had some exchanges with Mr. Barber on or about January 30th about a strategy meeting at the Command Centre about gridlocking Ottawa. Can you tell us about that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can tell you what I remember, which obviously isn’t much. Gridlock is not a term that I would normally use, so -- and as the text message clearly states, that was not up to me, that was not -- never something that we advocated for.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So -- and you have to understand that there was lots of times where we would have meetings, but we’d go in there and have a meeting about something totally different.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But there was a talk about that, is that this should be the strategy going forward is keeping trucks in the streets, gridlocking downtown; that was part of the strategy at that point.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, we never wanted to gridlock the city. It was always, as I said -- especially as we saw the momentum growing and the support that we were getting, safety became my number one priority. And as you heard Mr. Marazzo testify, that was especially important to him, having a son that made frequent ambulance trips to the hospital.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Unfortunately we heard that he didn't necessarily know about all the streets. He didn't know about Kent Street, for example, which even Mr. Barber acknowledged was shut down the whole time. So -- but you didn't have any visibility into that. That wasn't part of your responsibility I gather.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you some questions about the horns. You testified yesterday that at some point, even for you, the horns became a bit too much; you couldn't even carry on a conversation on the sidewalk when all those trucks were blaring?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At times, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And the -- I think I had seen video once when you were talking when all the semi-trucks when they blow their horns it's just crazy.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That was the experience, was it not?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I think that's taken out of context. Are you referring to the video that I made?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And I believe I said it was music to my ears. That was within a couple of days of getting there, and there was a lot of excitement and it was a very jovial atmosphere.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Ms. Lich, I know you strike me as a very reasonable person. You would agree with me that, you know, having a big rig, a semi-truck idling right in front of your house 24 hours a day, emitting diesel fumes, honking horns prolonged periods during all day, sometimes at night, that's not reasonable to a person that lives there. Would you agree?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As I said yesterday, when I was in my hotel room I didn't really notice it, the horns honking, and I was right downtown.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you wouldn't want a big rig to pull up, for example, in front of your parents' home and park and idle for 24 hours a day for several weeks honking their horn. You wouldn't want that, would you Ms. Lich?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, Mr. Champ, my ex-husband was a tool push on a drilling rig, and I have spent many days on the site of a drilling rig, and there is a lot of diesel fumes and there is a lot of noise.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, it's not pleasant is it?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is what it is.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but then you get to home. You get to get away from that noise and those diesel fumes; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not when you're living onsite, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you some questions about the injunction. We -- on February 4th to the 5th, you heard about that there was a motion from the residents of Ottawa to get an injunction to stop the horn honking; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard from Mr. Wilson a bit about that, that there was a meeting of the board or the leadership group about what to do, and there was a decision to oppose the injunction; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had never opposed the injunction.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you swore an affidavit to impose the injunction, Ms. Lich, let's be clear on that; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, once it was imposed, of course we weren't going to go against the injunction.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, no, there was a court hearing on Monday, February the 7th, where Mr. Wilson represented you, and Mr. Barber, and Mr. Dichter, who were named individuals on it, to oppose the injunction. You were -- you weren't aware that that's what the position you were taking?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall that, but if you say so, then...
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you swore an affidavit in support of that position, which I should say swore an affidavit that the injunction should not be granted?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you say so. I have sworn a lot of affidavits, so if you say so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is it fair to say there was a lot going on?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a lot going on.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was hard to follow all the different things that were happening?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you may not have known exactly what the team was doing on some of those issues?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess that's fair to say.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, Mr. Wilson told us yesterday that on the board there were some who -- there was a bit of a division on the board. Some felt that, "yeah, the horns are a bit too much, and you know, maybe we shouldn't oppose this injunction", and some were like, "no, we should oppose it." Do you recall that meeting?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was probably there, but as I said, I was in and out of a lot of meetings ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- so I don't recall that specifically.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And you testified yesterday that once the injunction was issued you worked very hard or worked really hard to see that it was adhered to. Do you recall your testimony on that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the truck captains did for sure, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But you, yourself, you didn't do anything directly to ensure that the Order was adhered to, did you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe I did, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No. You didn't post any videos or make any statements on your social media account attempting to discourage the truckers from blowing their horns?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My Facebook page was deleted about the first week we were here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn't put up anything on it before it was deleted?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you also, you never posted a copy of the court's injunction Order or the terms of it in any way on any of your social media; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe so, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you aware that that was a term of the court Order that you were supposed to do that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't believe so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Wilson may not have communicated that to you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He may have. Again, it was very chaotic times.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, February 4th, that's Friday, that was the -- well, I'll give the day because I'm sure it was like a ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a blur, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. I'm sure your days were crazier than mine, but I have a bit of a sense of what you were going through. February -- Friday, February the 4th, that's the day that GoFundMe issued the statement saying they're shutting off the -- shutting down the ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The fundraiser.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- fundraiser and they were going to return all the money to the donors. Do you recall that day?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when GoFundMe shut you down, you lost what was potentially access to $10 million; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And GoFundMe put out a statement that day saying, quote, "This previously peaceful demonstration has become an occupation." Do you recall that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by that point, you had also, I gather, had been following some of the news stories, some of the reporting talking about the negative impact that the protest was having on residents, you know, caused by the blocking of streets and the honking. Were you following that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't have a lot of time to read the news, to tell you the truth.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on that Friday, February 4th, after GoFundMe took away that $10 million, you learned later that day that you were being sued for $10 million. Is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was probably around that same time, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that was a bit of a rotten day, losing 10 million, being sued for 10 million?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You could say that I guess, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, did you consider or talk about with anyone else maybe working on an exit strategy at that point?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We had been in talks about that shortly after the legal team arrived, actually.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And after that one day, when GoFundMe shuts you down, did you -- would that have been a time for you to start thinking about shutting down the protest or coming up and saying, "Hey guys, we sent our message", and going home? Was that ever part of the discussion?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge. As I said yesterday, we were waiting to be acknowledged by somebody in the Federal Government who was willing to come and listen to what we had to say.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But -- and -- but you told us yesterday also, another factor was that the lawyers from the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, they had showed up and they were giving you advice, they were supporting you by that point; is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They had been there a day or two by that time?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it fair to say that without them you might have considered packing it in?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know. That's really hard to say.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So on the Friday, February the 4th, GoFundMe shuts you down, you're sued for $10 million. Then on the Sunday, February the 6th, the City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency. Do you recall that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the next day, on Monday, the 7th, the court issued the horn injunction. So did you start thinking then, or was there any discussions then about maybe the protesters should start packing it in?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There might have been. I know, again to reiterate, we were very focussed on being heard and having our concerns listened to.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then on February the 11th, Premier Ford in Ontario, they declared a state of emergency about what was happening in Ottawa. Do you recall that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not specifically the date, but I don't recall that happening, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Weren't you getting the -- you testified yesterday, Ms. Lich, that while no one told you to leave, the police weren't telling you to leave, all of these things, you know, the Premier, the Mayor, the courts, GoFundMe, that wasn't a message, the City of Ottawa, residents suing, that wasn't a message that maybe it was time to leave?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we had a message too.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And so -- and that was more important than what the people of Ottawa ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
After the stories that I heard coming across Canada that were absolutely heartbreaking after two years of lockdowns and restrictions, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you reached the deal with he Mayor around Sunday, the 12th, I believe or ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
-- the 13th. No, the 13th ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
13th, I think.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- or something like that, that's right. And the Freedom Convoy put out a statement about the deal. You recall that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I do.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in the statement you said things like you never wanted to impact the residents of downtown Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you wanted to agree to the deal to relieve the pressure on the people in downtown Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because there had been pressure on the people of downtown Ottawa by that point?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, as I said, we didn't want to create a big disruption to them. We wanted to be respectful to the citizens of Ottawa, for sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because from January 29 until February the 13th, you recognise it wasn't very respectful to the people of downtown Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, what I will say is that I was approached by hundreds of Ottawa citizens who had come out to support. I was approached by federal government employees who were donating items to the protesters. We had a lot of support in Ottawa from the Ottawa citizens.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Except for those that are suing you, I guess.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the mayor, who was elected by the citizens of Ottawa, he apparently wasn't supportive of you staying downtown?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He wasn't, and I give him great credit for being willing to sit and talk to us.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and let's just be clear here, Ms. Lich, no one was asking you to leave completely. It was about moving the trucks and having the trucks stop idling out in front of residences and blowing the horns all night and day. That was the big ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- message; wasn't it?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now you testified yesterday that once the Emergencies Act was issued and it looks like there was going to be action, law enforcement moving in, you testified that you encouraged people to leave; is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn't do that on social media in any way; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was just people who you saw face-to-face you were telling them to leave?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, primarily our people from our team also.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn't think maybe it would be better you had so much influence on people who were here in Ottawa protesting that you should put it out on social media, that, hey, you guys, maybe it's time for us to leave?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- obviously, I didn't.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, and obviously, another thing that you didn't, Ms. Lich, is, from my understanding of your testimony yesterday, you suspected you were about to be arrested, and you went out to the street to ask the police officers, or have someone ask the police officers if they were looking for you; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, that's true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you went out with someone who could record the arrest when it occurred; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Everybody has a cell phone these days.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And when you were arrested, I didn't hear Commission counsel ask you this, but as you were being arrested, you were yelling, "Hold the line"; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Well, one of the road captains that I was with said it and I repeated it back to him, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And by that statement, I take it you weren't encouraging the other protesters to leave Ottawa; were you? You were encouraging them to stay to hold the line; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, you know, that's a matter of perspective. My perspective on hold the line means stay true to your values in the face of diversity.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But you'd agree with me, Ms. Lich, that some people who were protesting, who were following you at that time, when they saw that message, they would have interpreted to hold the line to stay, hold the line, don't leave Ottawa. Some might have interpreted that way; would you agree?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't speak for what -- how - - what other people think.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don't think that's -- well, when you speak and you've got that kind of a platform, you recognise that people are listening to you, you have a great deal of influence on those people?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, again, it comes down to how you define the term, I suppose.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So just assist me with this, Ms. Lich, I'm just -- I'm trying to reconcile you telling us that you were encouraging people to leave, but you didn't put anything out on social media, but then you were with only one or two people at the time you were arrested, someone that you -- you knew who recorded that video; don't you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, you know that person personally?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and so they recorded it. You were aware, you saw them recording; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I did.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then you yell out hold the line, because you wanted the people to stay in downtown Ottawa; is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Again, I was repeating what one of the road captains had said to me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Ms. Lich, just one last point. For reasons that remain utterly unclear to me, Commission counsel asked you yesterday about the impact of your arrest and your charges against you. And I just want to make clear, you weren't charged with an offence under the Emergencies Act; were you? It's my understanding you've been charged under the Criminal Code?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes. All under the Criminal Code.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. You were charged under the Criminal Code for mischief and charged for interference with lawful use enjoyment both under the Criminal Code; is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mischief, counselling mischief, intimidation, counselling intimidation and a few more.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, but no offence under the Emergencies Act?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the indictment talks about activities from February the 7th up until February I think 19th or the date that you were arrested; is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Perhaps.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or the start of the date is before the invocation of the Emergencies Act; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Ms. Lich.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, Mr. Champ.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA GONSALVES
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Ms. Lich.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I'm Andrea Gonsalves. I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. You've told us in your evidence that you were not one of the founders of the Freedom Convoy, but you became involved because you wanted to help.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma'am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And primarily, your role was fundraising, and you were quite successful with that; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You told us you're not a trucker, you don't have a truck?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in the time you spent in Ottawa, there were obviously protesters, truckers who were sleeping in their trucks?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you didn't. You were staying in the hotels; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was, yes. I didn't have a truck here to sleep in.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And during that time, you've told us it was incredibly busy and surely exhausting for you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very much so.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Lots going on. You said you were in and out of different meetings, briefings, on various calls. You were dealing with crowdfunding platforms, switching campaigns, for instance?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma'am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were dealing with the funds being frozen, setting up bank accounts, that all took a lot of your time?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It did take some time, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Setting up the finance committee and the various administrative aspects that went along with that also took portions of your time?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were, through all of this, you've told us constantly meeting new people. There were new people arriving all the time that wanted to meet with you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, there was, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Lawyers, advisors, accountants?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Canadians.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Wilson, the other JCCF people, Mr. Eros were just some of the names you gave us; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you said this was a lot of pressure for you. You felt pulled in different directions.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, there was times when it was definitely very chaotic and very crazy.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you participated in many of the press conferences. You were getting put in front of cameras?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma'am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
People were putting you forward as the leader. Mr. Wilson, you'll recall, describing you as the spark that lit the fire?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do recall that, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you also said people - - you felt at times people didn't see you. They just saw the money?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, there was times when I felt that way.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And all of these dealings were consuming a vast amount of your time during the days and weeks you spent in Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Yes, there was.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You, I gather in all of this, couldn't leave your hotel very often?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In the beginning, in the early days, no. But as the days wore on, I was able to get out and to the crowds more ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, and occasionally ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- more and get out and talk to the truckers and stuff like that also.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Occasionally you spoke up on Parliament Hill?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you understand that the protest occupied quite a large physical geographic area of Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Wellington right out to SJAM?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We've heard Parliament south as far as Sommerset?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'll take your word for it. I don't know the streets ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Don't know the streets ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- here that well yet.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sure enough, and the evidence is in the record. You've heard there was trucks parked in the streets by the market in the Rideau and Sussex area?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. For a period of time in the early days anyway, they were out in Confederation Park? There was an encampment there?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I believe so.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the one out in Coventry Road parking lot ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma'am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- the stadium? As well as those that were a bit further out of town, 1500 Bronson Road; were you aware of that one?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not sure of the addresses, but there was some out of town, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you said yesterday something about 88. That would be exit 88 off of the 417?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think it's by Embrum (ph)?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Embrun.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Embrun? Sorry.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I believe that's the one, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Out in Arnprior. You heard about Vankleek Hill?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you, with all the demands on your time, were not spending the vast majority of your time in any of those places, right; you just couldn’t.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I visited them. I visited them but, yeah, not as much as I wanted to.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And I think I’ve seen you here throughout the hearing; you’ve been here almost daily?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma’am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we’ve heard some evidence about some of the things that were going on in the protest crowds. I take it this was evidence you were hearing, information you were learning for the first time; like the threats to the Mayor of Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t know he was receiving threats.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You didn’t know that Chief Sloly had received death threats?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You didn’t know that Minister -- sorry; Deputy Minister -- Deputy Prime Minister Freeland had received ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I learned of that the other day, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
A couple of days ago. And the Prime Minister was receiving threats?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t know that. I was also receiving death threats.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Were you also learning for the first time, as you sat through this hearing, about numerous weapons-related arrests in connection with these protests, or did you know that at the time?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did hear something about Coutts, but again, I didn’t follow those stories that closely; I had -- I was too busy here.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And weapons-related arrests in Ottawa?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There -- as far as I know there’s no weapons-related.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, there’s, there’s been some evidence about that and if that’s the case, that would be the first time you learned about that, too?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I don’t -- I don’t recall hearing about weapons, no.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We’ve heard evidence about protesters surrounding police and bylaw officers who were trying to do their jobs; is that something you knew was going on at the time?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
No. And this document was introduced into evidence yesterday by my friend, Mr. Diana. But no one spoke to it, so perhaps we’ll pull it up. It’s OPP00001819. It’s a OPP Intelligence Report for February 14th. And if we could please scroll down to page 2. Just -- sorry; the very first paragraph there. And February 14th, of course, that’s a big day. That’s the day that the Emergencies Act invocation was announced by the Prime Minister, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the first bullet point there says: “…Ottawa Police Service identified an online video in which a driver at the blockade had made inflammatory statements referencing violence, such as using a truck as a weapon. The video also showed him displaying a protective vest, which he claimed would stop an armour-piercing round. He claimed that [it brought] that he brought it with him to protect himself, and that he had worn it at the blockade....OPP Field Officers have spoken with this male and his truck has been positioned in front of Chateau Laurier since the beginning of the protest.” And I take it that’s new information for you as well?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is new information for me, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You’ve -- you’ve testified in this Commission that you had to believe everyone who was getting involved was doing so for the right reasons; that they were joining with the best of intentions, and these are at least some examples of people who maybe didn’t have the best of intentions, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. Which is why I continually was online advocating for peace; to remain peaceful, to abide by the law, and to respect our law enforcement.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in the various press conferences and press releases that you were involved in and that were being put out in the name of the Freedom Convoy; the message was repeatedly being communicated that the convoy was here to stay in Ottawa until the mandates were lifted, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
As long as that took, was the messaging?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you testified, both yesterday in response to questions from Mr. Champ this morning, about the deal that -- the exchange of letters that you engaged in with Mayor Watson. And I understand the broad strokes, he sent a letter to your team, with the assistance of Mr. Wilson you sent a letter back, or a letter was sent back in your name, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, ma’am.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let’s pull up that letter. It’s HRF00000045. (SHORT PAUSE)
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
While we’re waiting -- oh, it’s there, but while we’re waiting for that, why did the letter go in your name; do you know?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was President of the Board of Directors at that time.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And the letter that’s written in your name, if we just go down to the -- sorry; a little too far -- third paragraph, starts, “We have made a plan.” And you write, or the letter says: “We have made a plan to consolidate our [best] our protest efforts around Parliament Hill. We will be working hard over the next [40] 24 hours to get buy in from the truckers. We hope to start repositioning our trucks on Monday.” And that’s worded that way because at that point the best that you could offer the Mayor was efforts to get buy- in from the truckers, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, we needed to go out and speak to them and talk to them about -- about what we felt was going to be a good idea, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And after these letters were released publicly, we heard from Mr. Dichter in his testimony, and I believe you testified, that you knew at the time from him, that he had received many, many, many reactions on social media from those who were unhappy with this deal, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. You also were aware that Pat King had immediately put out his own messaging undermining this deal, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it was important to you, I take it, to make clear that what had been agreed to was nothing more than moving the trucks out of the residential neighborhoods, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a step one.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s how I viewed it. It was progress, it was the -- more progress than we’d seen since we arrived.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You, at that time, would not have put your name on any letter that agreed to a meeting if it meant you had to force protesters to pack up, end their protest and go home, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry; can you repeat that?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Maybe I’ll do it a little differently. The understanding you had with Mayor Watson was that you’re going to make best efforts to help get the trucks out of the residential neighborhoods.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then he would sit down with you for a meeting.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were not going to agree to a meeting if it meant you had to tell all those truckers, “Get out of Ottawa, end your protest; go home”?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry; can you repeat that again, please?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You did not, and you would not have agreed to a meeting with the Mayor if the condition for that meeting was that you and other leaders would have to tell the protesters, “Get out of Ottawa, go home, end your protest”?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, that would have been something that we would’ve had to talk about, that’s a what if.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you messaged this deal, you remember Mr. Wilson drafted up the Freedom Manifest that was going to be used to help communicate to the truckers what exactly they were being asked to do ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- and what the deal was with the Mayor? Right. And so let’s pull that up, that’s HRF00001285. This is a document you had reviewed, and you agreed with it.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in the fourth paragraph, what you’re communicating here is: “We have to stay in Ottawa for the long-haul to reach our destination. Just like we do every day with our routing logistics, we have to plan for the road ahead.”
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s what you and Freedom Corp. were saying to explain the deal to the protesters; that going along with what was being asked, moving those trucks out of the residential core to other areas in Ottawa, was a step necessary to make sure you could continue your protest for the long haul; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, we definitely would’ve loved to have stayed and continued to peace -- protest peacefully.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good morning, Commissioner. Good morning, Ms. Lich. My name is David Migicovsky. I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Police.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You’ve been very clear in your evidence that it was your intent to plan a peaceful protest; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that was very important to you as one of the organizers?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you did not plan to disrupt the lives of Ottawa residents or businesses?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you obviously, consistent with that, obviously, didn’t plan to break bylaws, honk your horns continuously, defecate on people’s lawns, harass people, or block emergency lanes? That wasn’t the plan; was it?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did none of those things.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And it wasn’t the plan; was it? As one of the organizers, you wouldn’t have been in favour of condoning that kind of activity; would you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And because it wasn’t your plan, and you in fact had a code of conduct, you wouldn’t have expected the police to turn the convoy away when they came to Ottawa; would you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, they were excellent to deal with right from the start.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if that had happened and none of the trucks were allowed in, we’ve heard from OPP witnesses that that likely, at that point, would not have deterred the convoy, because some had driven from very far away. Is that fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If we would have been told that we couldn’t have driven up here, I don’t believe that we would have. We would have found alternative places, I guess.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I’m saying that if, when you got here on the 28th and the 29th, the city was barricaded and you couldn’t go anywhere, the OPP witness indicated that that wouldn’t have turned the truckers away, because they’d come pretty far for this.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know how to even answer that question. I guess if there was barricades in place, how could we have done that?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And no one from the Convoy organizers, to your knowledge, was on social media before the Convoy encouraging anti-social behaviour?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And you’ve seen the Lawton book about the Freedom Convoy?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in his book, he says that the convoy organizers did not intend to be on residential streets?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would agree with that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But in fact, that is what happened?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was some residential streets that had lots of trucks on them. Yes, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
There were staging areas, but they were too far away from Parliament and people wanted to be closer; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A lot of them did want to be closer, but there was also trucks that were out there too in those locations, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you’ve been very clear in the affidavit you filed in court that there were truckers who came from all over?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you indicated, specifically, in that affidavit, which is -- we don’t need to call it up, but for the record, it’s JCEP0012 [sic], and paragraph 2 and three, that you did not control the truckers? Those are your words?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. No, we didn’t. They’re all human beings. I don’t control anyone, sir. I open up a dialogue with them and ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You’re agreeing with me?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t control anyone.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I’m sorry?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not control anyone.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You didn’t control the truckers?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And Supt. Drummond attended a meeting he’s heard with some of your representatives on the 13th of February. That was after the date of your letter with the Mayor. Those were on the 12th; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The meeting -- oh, yeah, sorry, the initial meeting was, I believe, Friday. And so yes, correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And so the agreement with the Mayor was reached on the 12th of February?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so. The 12th.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And then we saw that there was a meeting on the 13th that I believe Mr. Wilson may have attended with the Mayor’s ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I believe.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- office? And Supt. Drummond records in his notes, and again, I’ll give you the reference, but I -- in the interest of time, I won’t call it up, but it’s OPS14455 at page 47. The Convoy organizers, the representatives at that meeting, explained that they did not control Rideau/Sussex?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn’t at that meeting.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But you’re aware that that was said ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- by ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And that your representatives also said they didn’t control Coventry Road?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so -- and they also said they could not be certain if the truckers there would move?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct I believe, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And even for those groups whom you did have some control or influence on, I guess influence, we’ve heard that truckers are pretty independent minded people?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, they are.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
They can’t be made to do what they don’t want to do?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I guess so.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in addition to not controlling the truckers, you also did not have control, obviously, of the protestors on the street and whether they could block trucks moving, for instance?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We didn’t have control, but no, but we worked very hard and very diligently with the gentlemen and women that were down there to open up a dialogue and assist them in opening up that intersection.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, we heard about a previous effort by Mr. Wilson and Ms. Chipiuk on February 10th at Rideau and Sussex where police were going to move the barriers so trucks could move, but the crowd dynamics got in the way, and the crowd stopped the trucks from moving because they didn’t trust the police; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was down there also. Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You were there as well. And so you saw that. And you agreed that that would be dangerous then?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t feel like it was dangerous. There was a large crowd presence there and they were -- I think they were feeling that they had been lied to by the police. There was a lot of mistrust there. And they were down there singing Oh Canada and chanting “Freedom.”
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you agreed it would be dangerous to move the trucks in that scenario? Because the crowd swelled?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a lot of people there, yes. yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And we have heard that notice was given to the demonstrators in advance that they would have to leave. You heard that evidence?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Which -- what are you referring to?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
We’ve heard quite a bit of that evidence, that demonstrators were told to leave?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve never been told to leave.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You didn’t know that? Okay. You’re familiar with the PLTs; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am now.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I’m going to show you some PLT logs. And you understand that the PLTs were a liaison with the protestors?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And would communicate with them?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. I’m going to call it up. I’m not going to start by taking you directly to it, but I will take you to a particular passage. The document is OPS00014053. And so while that’s being called up, Ms. Lich, those are PLT logs as of February 25th. And I can take you through them in detail and show you, but in order to save some time, I’m going to attempt to summarize what they say on the issue of notice that was given to the truckers and protestors before the Public Order Unit moved in to clear the intersection. And so what I see in those is on February -- there were various zones in the city. And I see on February 16th, the PLTs attended SJAM and gave those present the letter, and were told by protestors that the letter wasn’t legal because it doesn’t have a signature.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That’s sort of similar to what you said; correct?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, excuse me a minute. Yes?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If my friend could actually take the witness to the part in the document that states that so that we can see it? I don’t know if that’s what it says or not. I apologize.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I will take her to it where it’s necessary. If she doesn’t agree, she doesn’t agree. That’s fine. I don’t wish to use my 15 minutes by going through the document in detail. If she can’t agree -- I will take her to portions of it.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure. Let’s do that. Take me to portions, please.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So PLT say they attended SJAM and they were told by the truckers that it wasn’t legal, that notice, and it wasn’t significant. Do you know about that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn’t there, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Do you have any reason to deny that occurred as noted in the PLT logs?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no reason to.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And I understand from those logs that the next day, on February 17th, they attended again and delivered the message again? And they attended again on the 19th and delivered it again to those who remained? Any reason to deny that that occurred?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not there. As a matter of fact, by the 19th, I was already in jail.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And so you weren’t being -- you weren’t on the 17th, were you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was arrested that day, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And I'm pretty confident, because you were one of the organisers, that the truckers were communicating with you and telling you what was happening.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From SJAM?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
All over the city.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not necessarily.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And then in Zone 2, and this is on page 7 of the same document, Mr. Marazzo met the PLT on the 16th and the message was delivered to him, and then it was delivered on Wellington Street and the PLTs describe hostile and screaming at the police, and the police then had to withdraw due to the hostility. Any reason to disagree with that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not present there, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Any reason to disagree with it?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, with respect, my friend's asking a witness who has no knowledge of something whether or not she disagrees with the document of which she didn't draft, of which was drafted by the police, and then asking if there's any reason to disagree with something she has no knowledge of. That's not a question, sir, that's permissible, it's not relevant. This witness, while this was all going on, was in jail without any form of ability to access phones and texts, et cetera. It's not an appropriate line of questioning.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
The witness can answer if she was aware of it or not. She wasn't -- I don't -- I think it's quite proper cross-examination.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am not sure it's very helpful in the sense that I'm not sure what you're getting at. She can neither confirm nor deny because she has no knowledge.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To say can she -- has she any, I mean, any -- the question's relating to whether she received communications about any of this, it may have some relevance, and she's answered that. So ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Well ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I mean, I -- you can go ahead, but you're ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
In my submission, it is highly relevant because the witness said that no notice was given. And I'm going to suggest to you, Ms. Lich, that the PLTs went to every single site and gave notice to everyone, and you're saying you didn't know that. Is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you say so.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. I'm going to ask that we turn up OPS12205, page 60. Yeah, just at the top where it says Swiss Hotel. I'm going to tell you something, and maybe you'll remember this, Ms. Lich: "PLT Peace, Jim and OPS PLT Meg attended Swiss Hotel and met with Lich and Bulford and O'Connor. Message was delivered and explained. All parties were upset and Lich was crying in regards to how unfair she felt this action was. PLT advised them to depart and message this out to others. All parties were upset when it was explained that people who are helping (logistics) can also be charged and held accountable. All understood messaging. They do feel that this message will harden participants' resolve as they feel it is a tactic of dictatorial government. Suggestion was made to have children leave the red zone." Seems pretty clear to me that you were given the message; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was never told I needed to leave.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So the PLTs, that's fabricated; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I remember when they came in and we had the discussion, and I, as it says, became very upset. I believe I said something to the effect of "I cannot believe that you're about to do this to your own people." We were there protesting peacefully, and I -- the rest of that interaction, I was upset and I was crying and I ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- don't recall the rest of it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You were upset and you were crying because it was over and they told you to leave.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was upset and I was crying because of what they were proposing to do to Canadian citizens.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And they told you to depart and they told you to message that to others; right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't recall them telling me to message that to others or that I was -- that I needed to leave.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry, you don't remember?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was suggested.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It seems to me your memory is selective. When I take you to something that implicates you, you have no memory of it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, that's inflammatory, and I -- if my friend wants to take the stand and become a witness and give opinions about credibility that's fine, but that's not a proper question, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'll move on. You would agree, you've talked about the fact that you didn't know the truckers or control them, and you didn't police them?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You weren't surveilling them?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You didn't know their past, you didn't have intelligence information about all of them?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am not an intelligence expert, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And you would agree with me that there may be other individuals or organisations that would have more intelligence information about some of the protesters than you did?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Such as?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Would you agree with that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could you ask me the question again, sir?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. I said you would agree with me that there may be other individuals or organisations that would have more intelligence about some of the protesters than you did.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with me as well that you have no background or formal training in crowd dynamics and what can incite a crowd to take action?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Or how to prevent a crowd from escalating or preventing violence?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I don't.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so just two more areas if I may just have two more minutes, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
HRF00001510, if I may have that document, Mr. Clerk, please. Is an email from Eva Chipuik. Eva Chipuik was one of the convoy lawyers?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so this is on February 15th. She indicates, and for some reason we have not been given the attachment, although we've been told that solicitor/client privilege was waived, but in the email it says: "I've drafted something on the right to protest and have taken a very cautious approach, because I don't exactly know what the emergency orders are, but it's my understanding that they can limit the right to protest, and while that can be challenged in court, at the moment people who do not comply may be arrested. I think if we're advising people it's important to let them know all the risks they are facing and let them make their own [decision]." You've seen that from one of your lawyers?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've seen it since in these hearings.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So two possibilities: either your lawyers didn't give that advice to you, or they did give you that advice to you.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, there is individuals cc'd or that email is to. She is not in it, and then the next day, or just in two days she's not -- like you should first ask her if she got the email. God. Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry, my friend have a chance to examine. This is quite proper cross-examination.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think it would be helpful to know if she received the email before you question her on it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay, I will get to that, but I -- there's a reason why I'm asking it in the way I have.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So two possibilities: either your lawyer didn't give you that advice, or you did get that advice from someone.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not receive this email, and I don't recall. As I've said, there was a lot of chaos, we had a lot of conversations, I can't recall.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay, so you don't recall whether your lawyer gave you that email or not.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't. I don't believe I've seen it before.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. And I understand that you've been charged with several Criminal Code offences, correct? Mischief, obstructing justice, counselling others to commit mischief, intimidation; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I understand you understand that the purpose of this Inquiry is not to determine your guilt or innocence; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Of course not.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you've received disclosure of documents from the Crown or partial disclosure I believe you said?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I have.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you understand because the criminal process is ongoing there's a principle -- a case called Wagg. And so as a result of that, you understand that I am not allowed to rely on documents that are part of the criminal brief -- the Crown brief in this proceeding. You understand that; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you say so. Again, I'm -- this is a new world to me.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you understand that if that's the case I may not be able to challenge some of the statements you have said; correct?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, my friend is arguing -- -
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- a principle of law.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am not familiar with the system.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. If I may just ask just one final question, then. You talked about concerns for safety; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that would include concerns for officer safety?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so we have heard evidence of police officers being swarmed by protesters, and I assume that you would be concerned about that.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I never witnessed that, but I would be concerned.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. But you don’t have sufficient control over the truckers or the protesters to prevent that, that’s occurred; correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t control anyone, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- for answering my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly. (SHORT PAUSE)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good morning, Ms. Lich. Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mr. Curry.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I just have a few questions.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can I just show you the -- one thing that my friend for the Ottawa Police Service was speaking to you about, just so that you have the full picture.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Could I ask, please, Mr. Registrar, for the witness to be shown HRF00001520? I think this is the attachment that was referred to. Just in case this helps your recollection, what is being projected now is a document with the title, “The Right to Protest.” Have you seen it? I appreciate you’re going to take a second to look at it, but just let us know, please, if you have seen that memorandum before.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t recall seeing this attachment; no, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And it -- I gather from the record, that it is the attachment to which Ms. Chipiuk’s email, or that was along with Ms. Chipiuk’s email, and refers to the limits of the right to protest that were expressed in that cover. But that doesn’t -- that’s not something that you saw or heard?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so, no. It does not look familiar.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. Just a couple of things, then, if I could. The Commissioner -- one of the things that the Commissioner has to consider is recommendations about dealing with the Emergencies Act, and presumably perhaps even the right to protest and some of the limits that we’ve heard about. Could I just have a couple of additional facts from you? You and Mr. Barber met, I think you told us, on the 24th of January to begin the trip ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, that is correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- here.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you left from Redcliff.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Redcliff, Alberta, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And arriving in Arnprior the 29th.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We got in to Arnprior the evening of the 28th, I believe; the Friday evening.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that was the 28th.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Twenty-eighth (28th); Ottawa the 29th.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And what I’m interested in knowing is -- of course, first of all the numbers of protesters exceeded your expectations; is that fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Wildly exceeded?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you -- I think you told us that you imagined that you might be able to raise $20,000 for this convoy.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And of course the financial commitments that you garnered were far in excess of that. But the -- in terms of the numbers of protesters who you considered, and I presume Mr. Barber considered in his conversations with you, were not in the numbers that filled up the streets of Ottawa in the way that you found them on the 29th; is that fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m sorry; could you repeat that?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Sure. Your expectation -- when you got to Ottawa, you saw far more people than you believed would be in attendance.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And am I right that you were not the person primarily, or even at all, communicating with police about how many people were going to attend?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe so. I know the road captains were in constant communication with law enforcement.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. And insofar as you know, the road captains would have had some information about the numbers of members of their individual convoys that they had but they would not have had a picture of the entirety of it because people were coming from far and wide; is that fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We tried every day to get solid numbers, and, like, with people joining and leaving, you know, some people would travel with us for 200 kilometres; some people would travel across the province and turn around. It was -- it was very challenging, as much as we tried to get a count, it was next to impossible.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So much so that when you got here, as much as you tried to understand how many would be there, you missed the mark.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, then, just a couple of other things. In terms of the company, the not-for-profit, it was incorporated January 30th, I understand?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think it was the 30th or the 31st, but it was right around there, yes, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then I think in the record, the bylaws organized it, were prepared by February 3rd. So that, the company and the governance model that you had imposed was evolving only once you got here.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Then, finally, in terms of the description, you called -- you and Mr. Wilson have both called the scene, “Chaotic”. Can you tell the Commissioner; when did you first appreciate the sense of chaos that you have described? Was it when you arrived on the 29th?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was sitting out on my kitchen table when we were organizing and -- because I had messages coming in and emails coming in and phone calls, and it was -- it was very busy times.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very busy times.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so by the time you got here and saw the situation in Ottawa, was it chaotic at that time as well?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were times when it was chaotic. As you referred to, there was a lot of people here. When we got into town, I just saw a lot of smiles and a lot of flags, and people hugging each other. But there was -- yeah. So I don’t necessarily mean chaotic all the time as a negative term, but it was, you know, a mixture of both.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. Just one last thing. I think one of the questions that you were asked about, what would have happened as you approached Ottawa, if the City had been -- I think the language was blocked or barricaded. Having regard to the numbers of people coming far and wide, and your inability to control them, is the likelihood that those convoy protesters would have just made their protest where the blockades were?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Again, that’s kind of a what if question that I can’t really speak to. Yeah, I don’t know.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, fair enough. Thank you, Commissioner.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you so much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Alyssa Tomkins for the City. The City has no questions for this witness.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Good morning, Commissioner. The OPP have no questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Democracy Fund, JCCF, Citizens for Freedom.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Mr. Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTOINE D’AILLY
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Ms. Lich.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Antoine D’Ailly, counsel for Citizens for Freedom, representing peaceful protesters in Windsor. Ms. Lich, in yesterday’s testimony you indicated that at the beginning you were tasked with some of the fundraising and that you thought that a fundraising goal of $200,000 was way too much and that you expected maybe $20,000 in donations; is that correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that you certainly did not expect the level of financial support that the convoy did receive over that period of time; is that correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think we were all quite shocked about that, yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Perfect. Do you agree that many Canadians who were unable or otherwise unwilling to go out and protest in the streets, instead donated to the convoy as a tangible demonstration of their opposition to the government mandates?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do, and I remember -- I remember saying, I think it was maybe to Mr. Wilson, that it wasn’t even about the money; it was about the statement behind the money.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And so is it also your understanding that contributors to a GoFundMe campaign may leave a message of support when they donate?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And did you review some of those statements of support?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very briefly. I did scroll through some, yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So then based on your experience, would it be fair, then, to characterize the act of donating to the convoy’s fundraising efforts as a form of political expression?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would. And encouragement and support. I think as it grew, people wanted to be a part of it in any way that they could show support, and that was one way that people that couldn’t attend or be on an overpass or drive to the side of the highway were able to support.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Understood. And is it true that the GoFundMe campaign for the convoy was active for less than a month?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Yes, it was.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And were you ever made aware that the convoy’s fundraising campaign, in that limited amount of time, enjoyed more donations from more Canadians than the Liberal Party of Canada did in either 2020 or 2021?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe somebody had mentioned that.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So we’re talking about large amounts ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- of money here, right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And are you aware of any other grassroots fundraising campaign which has raised comparable amounts of money since March of 2022?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge, but I haven’t also looked any up.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And lastly, we heard about some of the conditions and restrictions that you are now subject to while you wait for you your trial next year. In addition to those conditions, how many days have you spent in jail since you started fundraising for the convoy?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Forty-nine (49) days in total.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Those are my questions. Thank you.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And now for the convoy organizers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m wondering if we can take the morning break a little early. I have to talk to three separate lawyers behind me about certain areas of examination. If we could take the morning break, I’d be very much appreciative.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Only if you make the commitment to have a focused questioning so that it’s useful use of the break.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take the break early, then. Take 15 minutes, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La commission est lever pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 10:39 a.m.
Upon resuming at 10:58 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The convoy organizers.
MS. TAMARA LICH, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning. For the record, Brendan Miller appearing as counsel for Freedom Corp, and I think you know who I am, as I’m your lawyer.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I just want to start out with some just general questions. At any time during the protest, had you been given a Court order injunction to move the trucks or leave or what have you, what would you have done and how would you have acted?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would have, obviously, followed the injunction. I never intended or came here to break the law. I would have asked if there was a way that we could remain -- if there was anything that we could work out so that we could remain and continue our protest.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And you heard yesterday the evidence from Mr. Dichter, did you not?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I heard some of it, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he testified about not knowing about the deal that the convoy corp or Freedom Corp and the Board were going to enter into with the City. Do you have any comment about that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he -- he was obviously not able to attend because he was in a cast, but I believe we had dialed him in on the phone to be present at that meeting.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so at that meeting, what was discussed?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that was the deal with the Mayor.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what, if any, Board members objected to the dealings with the Mayor?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t recall anybody objecting to it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you heard him give evidence that the Board members were scared of the lawyers and what they were dealing with. Do you have any comment in that respect?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was news to me.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Have any of the other Board members expressed such a fear to you?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. My friend, Mr. Champ, discussed with you at length the injunction, when you should have known you should leave. And though I haven’t given notice of this, I’d like to bring up document HRF00000073, which is the injunction order from February 7th. And if we could just scroll down to the terms. Right. And so if I can just direct you to paragraph 7 of the injunction, can you read that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what’s your understanding of the injunction and this order at the time when it was obtained?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My understanding was that so long as we remained peaceful and complied with the order we were permitted to stay.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then there was a subsequent order and I understand that term, which states that “Provided the terms of the Order are complied with, the defendants or other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safety protest”, I take it that that term was in that order, too. Is that correct?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m sorry. What -- I didn’t hear all that. Sorry.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I apologize. I’ll speak up. The term at term 7 there where it says that it’s -- “Provided the terms of the Order are complied with, the defendants and other persons remain at liberty to engage in peaceful, lawful and safety protest”, I take it that was in the following injunction order as well. Is that right?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so, and I think it was February 16th, but I’m not sure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. And so my friend with the Government of Canada discussed with you what your knowledge was of violent offences, et cetera, that was going on in Ottawa at the time. If Mr. Registrar could bring up the document we just discussed, POE.HRF a whole bunch of 0s 2. And if we could just rotate that? And so the colouring on this is gone, but -- and this is already in evidence, but between the date of the beginning of the protest and the invocation of the Emergencies Act, there was a total of four violent offences individuals were charged with in that time period. Did you know any of those individuals?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Did you hear about individuals being charged with violent offences?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Since we've been -- since the convoy.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And my friend had asked you questions about some of the statements that have been given in this proceeding as well as in the media about all these awful things that happened to people. And you've been here for this entire time. Have you heard from any witness that they, in fact, were the victim of an assault, or witnessed an assault, or anything violent?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The only thing that I've seen and heard was not violence on the behalf of protesters. It was the video footage that I saw when the crackdown came.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could you agree that if there were victims of actual violence, given that they know who's charged, it would have been relatively easy for those witness to be procured to testify before this Commission?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
David Migicovsky ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I withdraw.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- for the Ottawa Police.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Withdraw. I withdraw. Now I just want to talk with you about the letter and some of the reactions that you got from some of the protesters. Of course, we know that Mr. Dichter didn't appear to like the letter and Mr. King didn't appear to like the letter. What was your general responses that you were getting at the time with respect to the letter and the deal that was going to be done through the City?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can't speak to other places. I know that we printed off that letter and I went out to 88 and spoke with the gentleman that owned the property out there and some of the truckers that were there. Their response was very positive. I think that everyone felt that, as I stated earlier, this was a step one.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And again, what was the sort of responses though that you were getting on the street from some of the truckers after that deal was announced?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was -- can you remember if it was -- was there some negative responses? Was there some positive responses that you personally witnessed?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't witness any negative responses, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And I understand that Mr. Marazzo, as you sat through his testimony, he stated that a purpose of the meeting and the goal of Freedom Corp. and its Board was not really to get a deal with the mayor. It was to -- or a meeting with the mayor, but it was to get this deal to make things work peacefully. Can you elaborate on that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you repeat that, please?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the actual goal with respect to Freedom Corp. as well as the protesters that you were representing, their actual goal was not to achieve a meeting with the mayor, but it was to deal with this in a peaceful manner. Can you elaborate on that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, well, that was obviously our goal, and again, to get the trucks off the residential streets. We were hoping to find a way that the trucks that did have to move their vehicles out of the city would have -- be able to come back in and continue the protest. And again, we felt it was a step in the right direction and meeting with the mayor was not one of my goals, but I thought, again, it was a way to open some dialogue with somebody in a position of authority.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And just on my last point here, part of this Commission is about coming up with recommendations and things like that. I take it when you came into Ottawa, and we've heard evidence that a lot of the truckers were directed where to park and that's where they kind of stayed throughout the proceeding -- or throughout the protest?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so there is this issue, and what we -- what I refer to and what's referred to in some of the jurisprudence is a speaker's corner. Have you ever heard of that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't think so.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. It's a place, a location in a government area, particularly out in front of Parliament or where have you, where protesters are permitted to go and is a designated area for protests.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I take it when you were trying to get the protest moving, most of the protesters were wanting to get onto Wellington because it's in front of Parliament and they were protesting the federal government; fair?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And what is your understanding of the current state of Wellington today?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe there's -- it's blocked off.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And if that area that's blocked off became a speaker's corner where individuals at any time could go and protest the federal government, what are your thoughts on that?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think that would be a good idea. I think Canadians have a right to exercise their democratic rights, and they have a right to have their voices heard.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And my friends from the Government of Canada put to you a whole bunch of evidence that you weren't familiar with until you got here with respect to threats. Can you elaborate on any of the threats you've received, ones that you know members of the protesters received as well as your -- the legal counsel, and even any of the legal counsel in this room since this proceeding started?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know -- well, I heard when I was at the ARC that the ARC was receiving death threats against me, which is one of the reasons why -- one of the reasons why I left that location. I have messages on my phone from an Instagram account from a young man that wanted to -- not just shoot me, but also shoot the rest of the protesters -- or the convoy organizers. I know that my criminal lawyer has received some very nasty emails. I believe Mr. Wilson has received death threats and threatening emails.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so it's fair to say then that there has been a lot of threats on both sides?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's fair.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But do you know anybody who's made death threats to any of these individuals?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Of course not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And when you walk in here every day for the past few days, there's a protester outside, and I'm sure you've heard everything she's been saying, and she's a counter protester and is against your cause. What are the sort of things that that protester has said to you while you've been coming in and out of this hearing?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, it's been very hard to hear because there's a lot of construction. I just hear her shouting my name a lot. I heard her say something I think just now about she can't wait until I go back to jail. But other than that, I haven't really ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did she mention anything about terrorism?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that's right on her sign.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what's it say?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It says, "go home terrorists".
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have one question. You were taken to a chart and told there were charges for violent offences?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know who was charged? Do you know the four people?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
With violent offences?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, the four people?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wouldn't know -- I have no -- no, I don't. Not that I can recall anyways.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don't know if it's someone you know or someone you don't know?
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony ---
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and you're now free to go.
Tamara Lich (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And thank you very much. Okay. So that -- we move onto the next, which is the -- I believe the panel of two witnesses and there's an issue to be discussed about the, as I understand it, the relevance of that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So maybe we'll deal with that now, if that's agreeable?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure, thanks very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So I'll remain seated here, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine, just identify yourselves because it's the same, the reporters have to know who's speaking.
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. It's David Migicosvky, Counsel for the Ottawa Police Service. We have a very real concern with respect to the witness panel of Chris Deering and Maggie Dingman. I believe there is now a different name, and I apologize. It’s Braun -- Hope Braun, I believe. Those two individuals -- and our concern is essentially one of procedural fairness. Those two individuals were not on the list of witnesses provided by the Commission, and so last Friday, ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You mean they weren’t on the original list?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Correct. And what we found out was on last Friday, October 28th at 12:37 p.m., we received an email from the Commission saying that these two individuals would be called as witnesses, and attaching two statements from these individuals. No information had been previously provided about these individuals, or about the issues that they were going to testify about, which are the -- how their arrest was handled, nor were there any documents provided by the parties, including the Ottawa Police Service, about the manner of arrest. It appears that both of these individuals, from their statements, are going to give evidence about the circumstances of their arrest by unknown officers. I’ve been able to determine in one case that it was not an OPS officer, one of them, but we are trying to find out information. These are arrests that took place on February 18th, after the invocation of the Emergencies Act. These individuals were not arrested pursuant to the Emergencies Act. They were arrested based on common-law powers and the Criminal Code. And my concerns really are two-fold. Firstly, the information we say is not relevant to your mandate under the Act, and the second question is one of procedural fairness. There were over 275 arrests made by the police in that period of February 18th to the 20th. None of the police witnesses were asked specifically about those arrests, no documents were requested. The last police witness who testified in this proceeding was on Wednesday, October 26th. Had those witness statements been provided prior to the completion of the police witnesses, then at the very least, we could have asked our witnesses to provide evidence with respect to the arrest plan, with respect to the circumstances of the arrest of those two individuals, and the other 275 people who were arrested. I am not faulting Commission Counsel. I understand that the statements were provided to them and they provided them to us immediately after. But it was two days after the last witness testified. Those statements were in the -- those were witnesses who are here represented by counsel, they had an obligation to produce documents. They chose, deliberately or otherwise, to not present that evidence and not allow me, then to respond to it. And it’s obvious that some of that information, they had beforehand. And in fact, to add to the procedural unfairness, last night, we received an email from counsel for the Convoy organizers attaching seven more videos that also would have existed that were not disclosed. There’s no explanation for why the Convoy organizers have not had to follow the same rules as everyone else. Those statements, even if they were relevant, and I don’t concede that they are, should have been provided prior to police witnesses testifying. It creates a serious and irreparable breach of procedural fairness to have you left with two arrests out of 275, which I am unable to provide evidence in response to, both those specific arrests, as well as the arrest plan in general. And there are, I say, two possible solutions. The first is to not allow that evidence to be heard. It’s not relevant to your mandate. And even if it was, it would be very difficult to draw any conclusion from the evidence of two individuals out of 275 arrests when you’ve heard no evidence about any of the arrests of anyone else, or the arrest plans, or any explanation of those two particular arrests. Alternatively, if you are inclined to allow that panel to testify, including adding new documents that were not on the database and were provided last night, then the OPS must, we say, as a matter of procedural fairness, be allowed the opportunity to call another witness to provide evidence about the arrest plans and the exercise of use of force options in connection with the exercise of police powers generally and specifically with respect to the scene that the officers encountered on February 18. You have not heard about what is involved when a Public Order Unit has to exercise tactical options. The Commission didn’t lead this evidence, nor did we. Similarly, we didn’t provide any documents surrounding those arrests. So while my first submission is that you should not allow this evidence, as an alternative, if you are inclined to do so, then I would ask for the opportunity to call evidence so that in fairness, the police witnesses can address what should have bene put to them by the Convoy organizers and which, for some reason, was not. Those are my only submissions. Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any other counsel wish to make submissions?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In response, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m just canvassing first.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yes. Perhaps I can speak to this, sir.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Should I go ahead? Emilie Taman for the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I take it you’re supporting the proposal -- or the objection?
SUBMISSIONS BY MS. EMILIE TAMAN
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. Yes. We agree, just on behalf of the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. We share the view conveyed by the Ottawa Police. We understand that the Commission is working under difficult constraints and there have been limitations in counsel’s ability to get documents and other evidence to the parties in a timely manner, but in this case, we would agree that there is prejudice and that the evidence, at least as it pertains to the arrests, should not be admitted.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other ---
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yes, Commissioner. Commissioner, it’s Chris Diana for the OPP. Can you hear me?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. CHRISTOPHER DIANA
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yes, the OPP agrees with the position of our friend, Mr. Migicovsky, both the main position or the alternative position. At this point, we don’t know if the OPP was involved or not in these incidents, and based on procedural fairness, we either -- that evidence either should not be permitted, or we should have a chance to respond to it. I won’t add anything further to the comments by my friend, but the OPP supports that position.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any other submissions in support? Okay. And then as I understand it, the Convoy organizers are opposing?
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We’re of course in support of the witnesses testifying and all of the evidence being put before the Commission. I’ll deal first with the point of law my friend raises about relevance and materiality. With respect to the terms of reference under the Order in Council in this Commission, this Commission is to look at the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. So with respect to whether or not there was police brutality or misconduct, et cetera, it’s relevant and material within the terms of reference. Second, with respect to my friend’s allegations of prejudice and it not being fair, with respect, they have not called a single victim or a single eye-witness to any of these reported violent crimes that they’re trying to lay at the hands of the protestors as a collective. I don’t see how our clients being able to find some witnesses of which they had no control over and which approached them, trying to be able to call actual evidence of actual violence that isn’t just an assertation. And in my respectful view, it’s relevant material. If you find that there is some form of prejudice suffered, what my friend is essentially alleging is a violation of the rule of Browne and Dunn. If this was a court, that leaves the court with various remedies, and one is to permit the recalling of a witness in rebuttal. With respect to the rule of Browne and Dunn, I did put issues with respect to arrest, et cetera, directly to Chief Bell, who was in charge of the operation at the time, and acting and asking questions about what was actually done. We’ve now provided the videos of those actual arrests. I understand that all the police agencies don’t want that to be in the public eye and, with respect, I would submit that the public has a right to see these videos. It is in the public interest and any prejudice is easily repairable by permitting my friends to call a rebuttal witness if they so choose. Subject to any questions, sir, those are my submissions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And any other party is opposing the application?
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. HATIM KHEIR
Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hatim Kheir for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. We support the Freedom Convoy Organizers position, and if I could just make a few points. So first, the terms of reference in the Emergencies Act do require investigating and looking into the appropriateness of the measures that were used. Interim Chief Bell testified that using emergency powers were used to create an exclusion zone and that they relied on that authority, and so I would expect that these witnesses as arrestees would have evidence that would be relevant to the implementation of that authority. Also, to the extent that my friend made the point that these are but two arrestees of many, we did hear from two Ottawa residents who provided their experiences as examples, and that would then represent a broader class of individuals, so this would also be two arrestees providing their experiences which would then be emblematic of others in a similar position. And I would just like to add on, my friend, Mr. Honner, from The Democracy Fund provided submissions through email. He’s not here. I would just briefly read it in just to provide his perspective as well: “The Democracy Fund submitted that the evidence of these witnesses is relevant to the Commission’s mandate. Specifically, the Commissioner has been directed to examine issues to the extent relating to the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. Superintendent Robert Bernier and others testified about the mission statement contained in the OPS Operational Plan of February 13th which speaks to enforcing legislation with the ‘utmost respect to the individual’s Charter of Rights’. There was evidence before the Commission that this plan evolved after the declaration of the Emergencies Act and there was also evidence that the OPS found the powers available to them under the Emergencies Act to be useful. The Commission should hear evidence from these witnesses, as it will speak to how police enforcement was carried out during the state of emergency from a protestor perspective. If there are objections as to relevance as the evidence unfolds, those objections can be dealt with orally. If other witnesses need to be recalled, that decision can be made after the hearing of evidence from the witnesses in question.” (As read) So that was Mr. Honner’s submission, which the Justice Centre also supports.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other who are opposing or, rather, supporting the motion? Yes, Commission counsel?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, at some point Commission counsel would like to provide some points of context, but if you’re still canvassing, we can wait until that’s done.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you’d like to add something? Yes?
SUBMISSIONS BY MS. EMILIE TAMAN
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If I may, Commissioner, Emilie Taman, again, for the record. I just wanted to respond to one point made by my friends regarding the absence of evidence with respect to residents of Ottawa who experienced violence in the convoy and, for the record, would just like to note again that the Ottawa Coalition was very limited in the time that was allocated to tell the story of residents of Ottawa. I would also note that there are many residents who continue to fear for their safety in being identified publicly as opposing the convoy, and with that said, I don’t think it’s appropriate to infer from the lack of evidence on that point that there -- that it didn’t happen. And I would also note in ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s -- you’re getting into argument now.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, it ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re dealing with whether or not there’s relevance to the evidence that’s being tendered.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. But one of the bases upon which it’s being asserted that it is relevant is that there’s been no evidence in relation to violence experienced by residents. And that’s something that my friend put to Ms. Lich this morning, and also Mr. Miller noted it in his submission to you just now.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
David Migicovsky for the Ottawa Police. The one point I want to respond to that has not, with respect, been addressed by my friends and which is highly problematic, I suggest, is the convoy lawyer has indicated that he put an issue with respect to an arrest to Chief Bell. And that is correct. However, he provided no information, no details, no indication of who it was, when it was. It came out of the air. And what makes that more problematic is that, obviously, that information was in his possession and there was no documentation provided beforehand. This was sprung after the police witnesses had already testified when we then get these statements. Had the rules been followed, that witness would have seen those statements, would have seen documents. We would have had the opportunity to put in documents and call evidence or asked to call evidence in response. The final point I note is that my -- one of my friends indicated that two of -- that several of the convoy witness -- several of the Coalition’s witnesses testified and that is true. The difference is, the rules were followed and everybody knew before they testified what they were going to say. So the Convoy Organizers had procedural fairness, as did everybody else. In this case, procedural -- there is a serious denial of procedural fairness and that’s what we say must be addressed. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Commission counsel, you wanted to provide some context? And among other things, I don’t know what the witnesses are going to say, so to what degree is it -- is this one of the witnesses that we saw the video about or is this something different? Maybe -- go ahead.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sorry. I didn’t mean to cut off my friend. This is not a witness. That one was also unfair, but we were at least able to get instructions and able to deal with it in cross-examination.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So -- okay. That was a red herring, then. Okay. I was worried that you were -- this was the same person.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No, I have no objection, by the way, for you reviewing those statements so that you can understand the nature of the evidence.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Commission counsel?
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. John Mather, Commission counsel. Just two points of context. Again, we haven’t heard the evidence yet, but Commission counsel expect that while there may be some evidence given about the arrests, that’s not the focus of the -- I don’t expect it to be the focus of the evidence. The two individuals who are being called, Commission counsel understands, participated in the protest both before and after the invocation of the Emergencies Act. They are not individuals, again, as we anticipate, who identify themselves as organizers. To date, the Commission has called individuals who have identified themselves as organizers, and this is a different perspective and one that we anticipate exploring. And then the second point, Mr. Commissioner, is that there has been evidence given by police witnesses about the measured responses in terms of ending the protests in the red zone in Ottawa. These are -- some of these matters have been before the Commission and prior to today without objection.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any further submissions by anyone? I’m being very generous about submission time.
SUBMISSIONS BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just one more, sir, and I just want to emphasize ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But don’t repeat, though.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not. I’m not going to repeat.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I always worry when someone says “I’m going to emphasize”.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll take it back. I’m going to point out that, you know, when it’s with the Commission under the Inquiry Act and its provincial equivalents, it is an inquiry and it has different rules and it’s much more liberal when it comes to the permitting of evidence. And though I understand my friend’s argument, there is many more remedies available for a breach of the rule in Browne and Dunn, if you find that it occurred, than not permitting the evidence. And I would submit simply that the least intrusive remedy in the truth-seeking function of this Commission would be to allow the evidence and on whatever teams you see just. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just give me a moment. Okay. I’m going to allow the panels to go ahead. On Mr. Migicovsky’s first point about whether the information is relevant, I think the -- there is certainly evidence that may be, I haven’t heard it, but may be relevant as to the use of the Emergency Act, and in particular, the notices that are -- have apparently -- there’s lots of evidence, were circulated as recently as this morning. So the use of the notices, the setting up of exclusion zones, is squarely within the mandate. And therefore, I think the information may well be relevant. I also note that there has been evidence of police as to the fact that the protest was ended in an orderly manner and quite properly. I believe Insp. Beaudin talked about that. I believe another witness, maybe Chief Bell talked about the fact it was ended without burning of police cars, et cetera. So the manner of ending is relevant, and this may go to some degree. I think the -- and there was also cross- examination in -- I believe of Insp. Bernier, as to the arrangements that were made and the processing, how the processing was done, the -- so there is evidence about how the operation, if you like, was carried out, including how the detainees were treated and the system arranged. Now, having said that, the impact and relevance diminishes to a point where it’s -- it in fact becomes questionable as we get further along, further from the use of the Emergency Act notice, et cetera, because this Commission is not mandated to deal with arrests that were or were not done in accordance with the appropriate police procedures and so on. That’s a matter for similar criminal courts, if there have been issues in that regard. So I think it moves quite -- well, I would say of marginal relevance, if any, to what the Commission is doing when you talk about the actual manner of arrest, as opposed to what I’ve described that is more squarely in the relevance. So having said that, I’m not prepared to accept that it is -- that these -- this panel is not relevant. I expect the accent will be on what I have set out is clearly relevant and what’s related to that. And obviously there will be some context. Context has been provided by other witnesses sometimes. And while I may hear that, it may not become an issue that I have to deal with. Now, on the second point, the procedural fairness point, I have some concern about that, because obviously it is, as I’ve said many times, and I’m going to repeat it, the public wants to get to the bottom of this, and that means fair to all parties. And I am concerned that there may be unfairness to the -- to some of the parties. In particular, the police forces, whether it be the OPP or the OPS, or in fact, to former Chief Sloly, or anyone else. So fairness is front and center in my concerns, and if after we hear this evidence there’s a need to call further evidence, we’ve said we would sit evenings, and we will sit Saturdays. We will get to -- get the information that the public needs to know and that will lead to a fair treatment for all. That’s -- I guess that’s my ruling. Now, if you want something more formal in writing, I’m happy to do it. But I sense the panel is here waiting, and we want to get -- we all want to make sure we fully use our Friday. I thought I’d give my ruling now. If anybody wants it in writing and expanded upon, I’m happy to do that. But I think that sets out, really, my thinking in a general way. And with respect to whether we will have another panel or another witness, I think that’s something we can deal with after the evidence is heard. With respect to the videos, I’m a bit concerned about the videos. I haven’t seen them. And I would hope we’re not going to get too far afield to what’s relevant to the issues I need to deal with. I don’t mean to minimize any issues about how an arrest was carried out. Those are obviously significant to individuals involved, including the officers, but that’s not central. In fact, is more anecdotal, I think, in terms of what this Commission is dealing with, but it is part of the record so far, some of the evidence relating to that. So that’s my ruling. And we can proceed with the panel, I believe. And I will expect the parties, if there are concerns about the ruling and you wish it in writing, please notify Commission Counsel. Well, it will be in writing because it will be in the transcript, but expanded upon.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I don’t believe the witness chair and desk are set up for two witnesses right now. They’d need to get another mic, as well as another chair.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take five minutes then to set up the panel.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for five minutes. La Commission est levée pour cinq minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:44 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Deering, and Ms. Hope Braun. My name is Stephen Armstrong and I’m Commission Counsel. Thank you for coming today. I have 45 minutes to ask you some questions, and because you’re a panel, I’m going to ask questions mostly one at a time. But when I have questions for you as a group -- sorry, you have to be sworn. I forgot about that. I got too eager.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Deering, ---
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes.
The Registrar (POEC)
Will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I wish to affirm.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Christopher Gregory Deering, C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R G-R-E-G-O-R-Y D-E-E-R-I-N-G.
MR. CHRISTOPHER GREGORY DEERING, Affirmed
The Registrar (POEC)
Ma'am, do you wish -- will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
The Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Margaret Hope-Braun, M-A-R-G-A-R-E-T H-O-P-E B-R-A-U-N.
MS. MARGARET HOPE-BRAUN, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. STEPHEN ARMSTRONG
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
So good morning again. As I was just explaining, because it's a panel I'm going to ask questions mostly one at a time, but when I have a question for you as a group, I'll try to make that clear; okay? So I understand, and this is for the panel, I understand that you've both provided statements to your counsel?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
That's correct.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And have you had a chance to review those statements before testifying today?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And did you want to make any corrections to those statements?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so in the interest of time, I'm not going to put them on the screen, but for the record, Mr. Deering's statement is produced at HRF00001598, and Ms. Hope-Braun's statement is produced at HRF00001606. So I just want to ask some questions about your background really quickly. So Mr. Deering, I understand that you're a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And you served a tour of duty in Afghanistan.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you were wounded on that tour?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I was.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Can you briefly tell the Commissioner about that event?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure. I joined the military quickly in 2007, finished my training very quick. I was deployed to Afghanistan in 2008. So in less than approximately two years, I was in Afghanistan. Four months into my tour my vehicle was hit by a IED, which struck my vehicle, sorry, it blew my vehicle about 100 feet in the air, killing three occupants immediately and leaving me seriously wounded. I came back to Canada, and -- sorry, I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
That's okay, thank you. I also saw, sir, and we'll take a moment, I saw that you're wearing medals?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just explain what the medals are?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
So left to right. Left would be my Queen Jubilee medal. It was lost during the protests with a scuffle with the police. Second is my Campaign Star from my tour in Afghanistan; and my Sacrifice medal that I earned for being seriously wounded in combat.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand now that you're retired from the Canadian Armed Forces?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And you reside in Hanwell, New Brunswick.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I do.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Ms. Hope-Braun, I understand that you're from Peterborough, Ontario?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And you studied environmental studies at Sandford Fleming College?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Sir Sandford Fleming, yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Sir Sandford. And you're a mother to two children?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So if I can ask Mr. Deering, I understand that you travelled to Ottawa to protest with the convoy. What made you want to come to Ottawa and protest?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It really wasn't that I wanted to come to Ottawa, it was that I felt it was my duty and that I had no choice to be there. Seeing what was happening over the last few years was troubling, and I felt that... I was there two weekends, first to -- on -- between February 11th and 13th, in which a bunch of veterans took down the fence that was wrongly placed around the Memorial, and then I went home, and then within days the Emergency Act was being -- was looked at being enacted, and I rushed back to Ottawa to do what I could to protect the peaceful citizens of the Ottawa protests.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so when you travelled to Ottawa, what did you understand that you were there to protest?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
The mandates. I was there to protest the mandates.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that important to you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Because for the last two years, personally, as a wounded veteran, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't take my family to a restaurant. I couldn't take my kids to gymnastics. I couldn't grieve my comrades in Nova Scotia because I wasn't allowed to cross the border in my own vehicle by myself to a cemetery where no one was living and lay my flowers for my mental health, and I was denied that for two years. There is many more reasons. And again, my train of thought is lost. I'm sorry.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
That's okay. I'll ask some questions now to Ms. Hope-Braun. I also understand that you travelled to Ottawa to protest. What made you want to come to Ottawa to protest?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah. It had been going on two years of mandates, and they just seemed to get more and more restrictive. I had tried every avenue available within our system to communicate the difficulty that I was seeing around me and experiencing to our government at various levels, and nothing was effective and the tone was not changing coming from the Federal Government, and I was just losing hope and really looking for options on how I could find more -- a more -- peace and safety for my family, and I felt really isolated. And then I'm seeing the convoy begin. I also lived out west for 10 years, so I have a lot of -- a lot of my support network was there and I couldn't travel there. And so there was a lot of people who I know personally who were sharing stories about how it was affecting them where they were. And I just felt since I'm three hours away from Ottawa I have a duty to go as well and to not just represent myself but many Canadians who could not come, and felt passionately about this.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so when did you come to Ottawa?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I came the second Saturday. I came the third weekend for the entire weekend, and I came back that Wednesday and stayed until the end.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell the Commissioner what your experience was with those protests?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Well, when we first arrived, I came with a girlfriend for the Saturday, and there was just a lot of energy. I was seeing people from all different backgrounds and cultures, different outfits and, you know, cultural outfits that I had never even seen before in Canada. I -- there was lots of hugs and there was -- walking up, there was just grown men crying and giving hugs and -- everywhere, and it was emotional and we cried. We had spent a long time feeling like we were really alone and not being able to go out and really not being able to even talk or share our experience in our family gatherings because we were -- our -- we were not welcomed to speak openly about what we were experiencing. And -- so to be - - it felt like this was our family. And I saw so many good things I could just go on for an hour on that. Saw lots of flags. I saw -- yeah, I think that's good for now.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And if I could ask, Mr. Deering, building on that, what was your experience with the protests and how did it compare, how was it similar to or different from Ms. Braun's -- Ms. Hope-Braun's?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
My experience was that when we got to Ottawa -- so on the way to Ottawa, actually, when the convoy was making their way to Ottawa, we attended a few -- there were a lot of people that would stand on the bridges to show support. And so where we lived, we lived close to a military base, and there must have been four to five thousand people on this bridge waving flags and -- it was amazing. It was just -- the amount of support was incredible. We made our way -- sorry. We made our way February 11th, the first weekend, just to kind of -- we wanted to see for ourselves what was going on because when we watched the news, there was one -- there was one narrative and we wanted to see for ourselves because on Facebook and social media you’d see a whole completely different other story. So we wanted to go there for ourselves. So our first instance was myself and my wife. We went up to see what was going on. We -- I participated in the fence removal, again, went home. The following -- I think it was the -- February 17th, I left my residence at 5:00 a.m. to go to the protest, but during the protest there was again -- there was hugs, there was homeless people being showered with food. I had read that crime was down. It was -- it was the most amazing experience I’ve had in my life, and I don’t regret going or being there one bit. And sorry, could you refresh my memory on the question again?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
I was just asking for your experience. And sorry, did you have anything more to add or were you done?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
There’s a lot more I could pack into that, but it was just -- it was the true Canadian spirit that was there.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Can I -- can I add?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Please do, yeah.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Okay. Yeah, the first weekend that I came, I came with my -- a female friend and she stayed at my house the night before and we were reading the news, the Global News, and they had something in there about we haven’t received a police report yet on how many -- how many additional rapes had taken place in the city since the convoy arrived. And -- and that just really shook me that they would go to that extent to make just -- anyway, that way. But when I got here, the experience was -- like the -- the positive masculine experience, the way that the men were behaving, they were complete gentlemens (sic). And you know, I felt not unsafe whatsoever in the city. And when my phone died and I went back, I wasn’t familiar with the streets, I was approached and walked to my car and just treated with such respect by the men that were here.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so for the panel, I understand that you both -- you were coming to Ottawa and then going home and coming back. Once the Emergencies Act was invoked, why did you either want to come to Ottawa or remain in Ottawa?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
So I remember they were voting on that and my wife and I were lying in bed. And we were terrified how the vote was going because we knew or we felt that the evidence would -- would not be able to substantiate such a call. I felt there was a great need for me to be there not just as a veteran but as a seriously wounded veteran to be there to protect the Canadian people from what could potentially happen.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Ms. Hope-Braun?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Could you repeat the question?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
So after the Emergencies Act was invoked, why did you want to come back to Ottawa or remain in Ottawa if you were already there?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah, I came to Ottawa for Valentine’s Day, so that was the day that it was invoked, February 14th, if I’m correct. That day, I witnessed hundreds of roses being offered to the police officers. There was a lot of love. There was a lot of trying to heal the divide that was trying -- that was being created between us and the police. And the streets of Ottawa were covered in roses that day. And further to that, just listening to the Senators give their speeches, I felt that -- that as they were supposed to approve it, but then it was removed before they had a chance to approve it or not, it sounded like there was good reason to stick to what I felt was right and stay. And I don’t believe that -- if a government passes a law it means that we have to go against what we believe is right. We should still -- you know, we still have a right to peacefully protest and assemble. And if we can’t do that in front of the Parliament in Ottawa, I don’t -- I don’t know, you know.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so building on that, Ms. Hope-Braun, once the Emergencies Act was invoked, what was your understanding of your ability to lawfully protest in the downtown area?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Well, I believe that we still had -- have a right to protest in the downtown area or anywhere, that we were peaceful and as long as we remained so, we had a right to assemble and -- yeah. I had another point to that, but -- if you could repeat the question again.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Well, that’s okay. We can come back to it. I’ll just ask Mr. Deering, what was your understanding once the Emergencies Act was invoked, of your ability to lawfully protest in the downtown area?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
My understanding is that it was a mandate. In my eyes, it was an unlawful mandate. I’m a free citizen of this country. I’m a taxpayer. I’m a veteran. I’m a good person. And I felt I had the right to be there with my Canadian citizens to try to protect them.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so Mr. Deering, I understand that on February 18th, 2022, you were in Ottawa protesting as well; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Where were you staying in Ottawa that day at that time?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
So I drove up February 17th. I left my house at 5:00 a.m. because it takes me approximately 10 -- the drive is 10 hours. With my back and my foot and my conditions, I have to stop every few hours. So I arrived in Ottawa some time that evening. I parked my car, I remember, on Bank Street. I walked up to the memorial to just congregate with the veterans. I went back to my car and, knowing me, I got lost for an hour and a half. I walked around the city. I eventually found my car, which is where I slept. We had came up the previous weekend, which was about 1,000 bucks for the hotel and food and I didn’t really have the means to pay for more hotel and lodging, so I slept in my car the previous night.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall where on Bank Street you parked?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, I don’t.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Was it in the downtown area?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I believe so.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And so you -- when you drove in, did you pass any police checkpoints or anything like that?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I forget.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Hope-Braun, I understand that you were in Ottawa protesting on February 19th. That’s correct.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
That’s correct.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Where were you staying at the time or how did you -- how did you find yourself in Ottawa?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I was at a hotel that was very close to Metcalf and Queen, I believe, so I’m not sure the names. I was at a hotel that weekend.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And when did you begin staying in that hotel?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It would have been on the Thursday before the -- that weekend, 17th, maybe. I’m not sure.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And Mr. Deering, on the 18th -- and I’m going to stick with you for a few questions. On the 18th, where was the protest that I understand you participated in? Do you recall where in the downtown it was?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
So I was at the memorial that day around 8:00 in the morning. I had my coffee and I was congregating with a few different vets. And then just, I would say, north -- or south -- my navigation’s a little off, but just about 100 feet from the memorial is where the police started to line up and that’s when the call-out went. All the veterans -- so there was about 20 or so of us. We lined right up, we linked arms and the consensus was we were going to stay there and try and protect the people.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you want to do that?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It was our duty. When I joined the military, I swore an oath to protect people. I went to a war zone to protest those people. I never thought that some day I would have to do it on Canadian soil, but I did, and I will again. I would.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Were you told at any time or informed at any time that you couldn’t be there or it was unlawful for you to be there?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you were arrested on the 18th. Is that correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I was.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Can you -- can you tell us briefly how you came to be arrested?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure. So I remember about 12:45 is when we -- we lined up, we linked arms -- 12:25, sorry. And we had a chance before the police decided to make their push -- we had about 15 minutes to kind of converse and I had the chance to speak with four or five officers. I left them know who I was, why we were there, what we were doing, the fact that we were peaceful. I showed them the photo of my crater of my bomb, just to get them some reference, so that if they did arrest me, and, again, I mentioned to every policeman I talked to, I said, "If you arrest me, keep in mind I have a really bad back, please." Sorry, if you can repeat the question again? Sorry.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Just asking about how you came to be arrested.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Okay, right. So I had a chance to converse with the police, multiple police. After I spoke with them, they would move down the lines. They didn't want to really have anything to do with me. Finally, there was one member that came up. He didn't know my situation as much. I did have a chance to refresh his -- to give him my reference points, my photo and my story quickly, but about 45 minutes into the pushing, I kind of underestimated the amount of physical toll it would take on my body after 14 years of not being able to do what I could do when I was 20. My muscles and my body was just -- I had given up. I was finished. And the video would show that I succumb, and I gave myself to the police. And as the police took me down, again, he knew, he kneed me in my side, kicked me in my back. I was laying down. I was in the fetal position on my back. He kicked me in my ankle and my foot. As I was laying down, I had my hands completely up. I'm saying, "I'm very peaceful. I'm peaceful. I'm not resisting." I was then punched four or five times in my head. I had a knee on my back to keep myself down. I was on the ground for one-and-a- half to two minutes. My hands were zip tied. The officers slowly picked me up and then we slowly proceeded to the processing line. We get to the processing line. The day was minus 20. I had no gloves on. At the beginning of the processing line, we're standing there, and I had asked -- so and -- sorry, the duration of the processing line was one-and-a-half to two hours, so I was standing there in the cold for two hours. I asked the policeman who was on both sides of me, I said, "Do you mind, you know my conditions, is it okay if I sit or kneel because I'm in chronic pain?" It was obvious. My face was flushed, and I had cried multiple times, and I don't cry ever. I was -- it was the worst pain I had felt since I'd been blown up. The fact that I couldn't sit, or stand was, to me, cruel and unusual punishment. We would go 15, 20 minutes without even moving. I also asked if I could have my medication, in which I had my prescription and my medication on my person, so that if I needed it, I could ask. I asked, and I was denied my medication to comfort my duress. We finished the processing line after about two hours. Police took my -- on the whiteboard they put down my name, they took my photo. They then placed me in the back of the squad car. They read me what I was being charged with, which was mischief -- public mischief and -- sorry, I'm forgetting the other one. Public mischief and -- sorry, one minute.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Take your time.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Public mischief and ---
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
It's okay, Mr. Deering. Your statement is in the record, so if I could actually move you back in time. What were you and your group doing just before you were arrested? What activity were you taking part in?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
So we were -- again, we were linking arms. We were standing. We were not moving. We were not progressing, moving forward. We were telling the cops what they were doing was -- it was unlawful order. We had every right to be there under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms to peacefully protest, which we were doing. They had no right to do what they did.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And at any time, either before you were arrested or after, were you given the option to go to another place in Ottawa to protest?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Hope-Braun, I think as we said earlier, I understand you were protesting on February 19th ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
--- in Ottawa? Where was that protest that you participated in?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It was all -- I guess at that point, we couldn't really go past Chateau Laurier, so I, for the most part, spent most of the protest up on Wellington, right in front of the Parliament building. I did walk around and see the sites a little bit, but that day, it was from Chateau Laurier to down Wellington, and then I was arrested when they had cleared Wellington and protesters were then on the side streets, so I was on O'Connor at that point.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And were you told before, or any point that day, or before or after your arrest that you were not allowed to be where you were?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Not -- no, not in that effect, no. There was -- no. The -- obviously, we got the sense that we weren't welcome there, but I wasn't directly told that I wasn't allowed to be there and -- in that way, that it wasn't lawful for me to be there.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
What gave you the sense that you weren't welcome there?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
The massive amount of police and their presence was taking over the city it seemed, so it -- and the news media, and Justin Trudeau's words and, you know, more that I wasn't welcome there, not that it -- I shouldn't -- that it was not lawful for me to be there. I believed it was lawful for me to be there, and I didn't hear otherwise.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And either before or after your arrest, were you given the opportunity or were you told about any kind of place you could go in Ottawa to peacefully protest?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No, there was no place provided or planned for us to go. And not only that, but afterwards, people were still coming from across the country, and places like Arnprior, they were assembling there, and the owner of that property was threatened with fines if he didn't have us disperse. So it wasn't even that we weren't welcome in Ottawa. We weren't even welcome to assemble an hour outside of Ottawa. So it extended beyond that red zone, in my opinion, in my experience.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you come to be arrested? Can you tell us about that?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
So when police had effectively removed everyone from Wellington Street, they had all the streets with the trucks on them at this point, and I was on O'Connor and I had a bit of hope that they would stop there because we were remaining peaceful as protesters. We were there from all over the country. And there was a man who had the Charter of Rights, or I guess it was the Bill of Rights. It was a document. They look the same and they both represent human rights, and -- and so I took three copies of that. And there was three different police units it seemed. They had different types of uniforms, so they appeared to be -- so I spoke to each unit, and I said, "You may have been able to justify this up until this point, but if you keep moving forward and you -- onto the people, because we're just the people now, that you have the trucks, you will be trampling our Charter of Rights with your boots." And I put it down in front of each one of them, and I - - in the middle of the street, I knelt down, and in front of the Charter, and I told the police officers that if they move forward, I'm willing to not resist arrest and I won't move, at that point. So but that was my line in the sand so, yeah.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And just coming back to Mr. Deering, you had mentioned just before your arrest, you'd said something about an unlawful order. I just wanted you to clarify what you -- what were you referring to? What was the unlawful order? Take your time.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you repeat, sorry?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you repeat the question again, sorry?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
You had mentioned an unlawful order, and I just wanted you to clarify what you were referring to.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sorry, I'm just having a bit of a brain fog at the moment.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
So I think the context was I had asked you why you were there and you said that you were there -- well, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I understood it to be sort of in defiance of an unlawful order, or you weren’t leaving because of an unlawful order?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
From what I understand of the mandate is just -- it’s just that, it’s a mandate. It’s not a law, we didn’t vote on it; people didn’t want it. It was pushed upon us, and I felt it was unlawful.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And what is the mandate?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
The mandate was the -- it was the Emergencies Act; sorry.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And for the panel, can you just tell us what was the impact (indiscernible)
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sorry; was that for -- sorry; could you say it again? Was that for me?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
We’ll put it that what was the impact of these events?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Of the impacts of these...?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
On you personally.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
For the past two years?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry; on -- the events in Ottawa.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
In the events in Ottawa. Sorry; I just need a minute.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
So for me, the impacts where I was already -- I’ve always been concerned about our government overreach, and we have to keep an eye on our government. That’s what our duty, as people -- the citizens of the country are, is to be politically active and involved and aware of what’s going on. And over the years I’m just increasingly starting to lose faith in the institutions and what, you know, we say is -- we are Canadian, we’re a democracy; we attract people from all over the world because this is a place where we have rights and freedoms. And to me it -- the impact was that 00 it was evident to me in a very clear way, and seen among the entire world, that the Canadian government is not acting on the -- is not -- this is my opinion, obviously, not acting according to what we mandated it to -- what -- it’s not protecting us, it’s not upholding its job. It’s not doing its job. And, to me, it just broke any allusion of that. And at the same time, I think it’s important that we see that, as Canadians in the world, so that we can fix it, so that we can make it better. And we need to kind of keep that in check, you know? It’s the nature of being in a world and -- filled with people. We have to ---
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
--- balance it out.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Deering did you, did you want to answer that as well?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you repeat the question one last time? I’m sorry.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
I’m wondering what the impact of your experience in Ottawa was and how it ended on you as a person?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It’s such a loaded question, I’m sorry, there’s so many emotions going in my head in the last -- the last two years, it’s just been constant persecution after persecution. And I find that when -- the government has a role but when they want to get into your lives and tell you who you can see, when you can see them, and dictate everything about your life, and when they get too intrusive, the overreach for me was just -- it was just too much. And, again, I just -- I had to be in Ottawa. It was just -- it was my duty; I had no choice.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Ms. Hope-Braun?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
More personally, the impact for me is -- after speaking to a therapist, just, you know, clear signs of PTSD-like symptoms around what happened. And my whole life was really turned upside down from that time forward, and has impacted my life. It’s a completely different life now, before and after that day, so...
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I’d just like to close out with the panel. I’m going to ask both of you -- let’s start with Ms. Hope-Braun; is there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you wanted to say, that we didn’t get to talk about?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I don’t think so. I’m good, thank you.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Deering?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
If I could, I’d like to speak directly to you, sir. I think I’d like to ask you and, as a veteran, I’m asking you that, if this never happens again, you have the power of a whole country behind your opinion. Please use it. Protect the Canadian people from this kind of misbehaviour from this government towards its people ever again, please. Thank you.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Those are all my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think it’s the Ottawa Police Service, is going to go first. (SHORT PAUSE)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
David Migicovsky; I’m counsel for the Ottawa Police. Good afternoon, Mr. Deering. Good afternoon, Ms. Hope-Braun.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Good afternoon.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Good afternoon.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Mr. Deering, you were looking at a statement that you had in front of you and that’s the document that’s called, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement - Chris Deering”?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Okay, I don’t remember that; sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You have a document in front of you ---
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
These are just my notes, sorry, they’re so I can reference. Because of my traumatic brain injury, I need some things referenced, so...
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. I just want to see what those notes are. Is it the same as your statement that you were referring to?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Or is that still -- okay.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It’s in there, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so what it is, it’s a document -- we can put it up on the screen, but I think that you have it in front of you. It’s called, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Deering,” is that right?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I’m not sure of that document, sir. I’m going to look, but I don’t recall that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. Have a look at it, and tell me what it says, or if you want to show it to me?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you repeat the title, please?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. It’s called, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Deering.” Perhaps we can put it up on the screen so you can ---
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
If you could it on the screen, sir, I would ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure, we’ll do that. I can’t recall the number, but I believe ---
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, if it may be assistance, I believe that’s HRF00001598.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you. If you could just put that up so that Mr. Deering could see it? (SHORT PAUSE)
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Is that what you had in front of you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes. I don’t have that with me, sir, but I have seen it, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So sorry; did you have something else with you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Notes, to reference, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
These are notes that you made; when?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Just recently so I can remember; sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Perhaps those notes can be filed at some point as well. Those are not notes you made at the time of these incidents, right?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. I didn’t realize, I thought you had your statement in front of you when you were testifying, but you had some other notes?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
That’s right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Ms. Hope-Braun, I believe your statement also says at the top of it, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement”; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I don’t recall the very tops -- top line; sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Perhaps we could call up Ms. Braun’s statement ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I’m sure -- I’m sure it is, if that’s what you’re looking at.
The Clerk (POEC)
This is the Hearing clerk, just for benefit of the record. That’s HRF00001606.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That’s your statement as well; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so those statements say at the top, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statements”; who put that on them?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I’m not sure.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I’m not sure.
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
I, if I can answer ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Don’t worry, that’s questioning, cross-examination. Go ahead.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You don’t know?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I would imagine it would be the lawyers that were taking our statements.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Those would be the convoy organizer lawyer?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I don’t believe so, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. It wasn’t any of the people at this table, was it?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I was speaking to them on the phone, so I’m not sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I couldn’t see them.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Who gave you the statement?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Pardon?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Who prepared this statement, ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It was ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- typed it up and gave it to you?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I was contacted through the Justice Centre.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so one of the Justice Centre’s lawyers prepared this statement and sent it to you; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It was basically word for word of they asked me questions, and I gave a response, and this is exactly what I said to them on the phone, so yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And then they gave it to you, and they typed on it, “Canada Freedom Rights Movement Statement of Chris Deering and of Maggie Dingman,” the original ones that -- correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Okay.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah, I'll agree with that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And that's the same heading that we see on the statements of Tom Marazzo, Canada Freedom Rights Movements. But you don't know what that means.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I do -- I don't know. I'm not somebody who -- I understand that words can be titles for things. To me, Canada Freedom Rights Movement are four words that represent what I believe I'm part of. So I don't know. It looks like a good heading to me.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
See, what I'm trying to figure out is every -- most of the other witnesses here were interviewed by the Commission and then we have statements that are on Public Order Emergency Commission letterhead.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Okay.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You were not interviewed by the Commission's lawyers to prepare those statements; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I was interviewed by a lawyer who was here working on -- working with the Commission. So I don't know.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
These -- you don't remember. And how about you, Mr. Deering?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Everything in this is correct. I wrote everything myself. Again, I do forget also who assisted with me, that's an effect of my traumatic brain injury, I'm sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And neither one of you have criminal charges against you; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you told your story to a -- one of the convoy organiser lawyers; is that right?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
The Justice Centre is who ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
The Justice Centre, I apologise.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
--- took mine.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And neither one of you, as I understand it, has filed a complaint with the Ottawa Police Service about your arrest.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Not yet, no.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Not yet.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And neither one of you has contacted the Crown to say, "Hey, excessive force was used with me"?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I have not contacted them, no.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah, at this point I have tried to contact the government so many times I'm kind of going to, you know -- it's very frustrating. I have spent a lot of time trying to contact government agencies and have assistance, and have not gotten anywhere for many years at this point.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And complaints against the police can be filed with an office, a government office called the Office of the Independent Police Review Directorate, or IPRD. Neither one of you filed a complaint with them; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Not yet.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the SIU, that's the Special Investigations Unit, you can investigate situations in someone -- in which someone says they have been seriously injured by the actions of the police. And so I just want to be clear, there haven't been any complaints or investigations by the SIU have there?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Not to my knowledge.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Not to my knowledge.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I understand, Mr. Deering, that you have some notes, and you're going to share those notes with me; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. And I understand, Ms. Hope-Braun, you do not have any notes?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Not here with me, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you haven't filed any notes with your lawyers or the Justice Centre, lawyers?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I provided them with a letter from my chiropractor who spoke to the state my back afterwards. Also, with a trauma specialist, a psychologist, filed a letter from that professional as well. And I believe that's all of the notes that I have provided them.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I didn't see that trauma specialist note ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- in the database, but perhaps I missed ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I don't think it was submitted. It wasn't.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It wasn't.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So you did not give any documentation.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Mr. Deering, I understand from your evidence that you were in Ottawa on February 11th and then returned on the evening of the 17th and 18th?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And at that point the Emergencies Act had been passed; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And there was an exclusion zone. You knew that; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You did?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you knew what the newspapers were telling people, not to go there unless you have an exemption ---
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I didn't read the newspapers; sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I didn't read the newspapers or listen to the news because they were lying constantly. Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And none of the sources on which you get information were telling you don't go into that zone.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you say it again? Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Can you say it again? Sorry, I just ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. None of the sources from which you get information were telling you don't go in that zone?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sorry, I'm going to have to ask you to repeat one more time. I'm sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
That's okay. Ms. Hope-Braun, you presumably knew that you were told not to go into that area unless you had specific reasons to be there?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
That's not what I was gathering from it, no.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
It wasn't -- you didn't turn on the radio, you didn't read any social media, you didn't go on Facebook?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I knew that they wanted to clear the area.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I was aware of that, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you knew that the Emergencies Act had been passed?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Well, they were still debating it in the house the day that I was arrested. So I wasn't really ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
What day were you arrested?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
On the 19th.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. The Emergencies Act had passed.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Okay, it passed, but it was still being debated, and it hadn't passed the Senate.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so both of you, you were in the area, you did not live in the area, you were not on your way to an appointment; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No. I had a hotel, though, booked. So I was...
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you both, I believe, fell to your knees and refused to move while the police operation was being carried out; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, that's incorrect. I was pulled down and beaten. Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. I apologise.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Sorry. I said I was pulled down. I was not on my knees. I was pulled down and beaten. Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. You were on your knees and you refused to move.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, I was standing up. Sorry, I was pulled down.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And Mr. Deering, you indicated that one of the police officers even told you to hide.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So he gave you some advice, and in spite of that you stayed there.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
That's correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, you wanted -- you believed as a veteran you should put yourself in the way of other protesters because veterans are better able to withstand what was about to come you said?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I wouldn't say better able, I just said we're more accustomed to it. Most civilians are not ready to be beaten. I was ready for it.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It was me who was on the knees.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Sorry.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you were on the road, Mr. Deering; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
At what time?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I was on the road. What's the question?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You were on the road when you were arrested?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I was on the road?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
That's hard to say. There was a lot of snow, so I don't know where I was, on the grass, on the road, I'm not sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so were you, Ms. Hope- Braun, weren't you?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Everyone was on the road, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so you understand you're obstructing a roadway; correct? (LAUGHTER/RIRES)
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No, the big ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please, if I could ask everyone to not act out, that would be appreciated. We're trying to keep this civilised. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Everyone was obstructing a roadway that day.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So everyone, all of the protesters who were arrested were obstructing a roadway; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
And the police were also obstructing the roadway ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
--- if you think of it ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
--- like that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And there were also announcements made in both official languages telling people to move?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I didn't hear that.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I did.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you were there, Mr. Deering, you said 15 minutes before and you saw the police were looking violent and aggressive, you said, and so you decided to stay on that roadway; correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Absolutely.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you're both aware, I take it, I'm just going to finish off, that there is an online fundraising campaign for both of you run by a group called Café?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Not aware of that until just now.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
A Derek Sloan. He's actually sitting in the audience.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Okay.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
That's wonderful. Okay.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You're aware of that?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I am now.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I am now, and I will be happy to ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, I see on that fundraising that he is fundraising for Chris Barber, Maggie Dingman, Brigitte Belton, Chris Deering, Danny Bulford and Tamara Lich. You know all of those people; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I have only just met them here.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Did you see Mr. Sloan today?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I do, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And in order to benefit from that fundraising, I take it it’s important that you tell the story that you just told; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I’m not sure. Sorry. Can you -- benefit from? Can you say that again?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
In order to benefit from that fundraising, it’s important that you tell the story that you’ve just told; correct?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I’m sorry. I’m not really very familiar with what you’re speaking to right now. Everything’s happening very fast, so I’m ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Mr. Sloan is associated with the Ontario Party.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I understand, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. Okay. Thank you very much. I have no further questions. Thank you both.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BATH-SHEBA VAN den BERG
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. Good afternoon, Chris and Maggie. My name is Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, and I’m counsel representing Freedom Corp and the protestors. I’d like to start by asking you, Chris, a few questions about what happened to you on that Friday, February the 18th, 2022. I understand that you were wearing your medals when you were arrested. Is that correct?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I was.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And did they get damaged when you were arrested?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
They did. The first 20 minutes I had my medals on my jacket and with the shoving with the police, at one point one of my medals, my Queen Jubilee medal, broke off and I lost it.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could I call up HRF00001566?
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Just to perhaps -- there are a lot of documents, obviously. David Migicovsky, sorry, for the Ottawa Police. Perhaps before my friend introduces one of the documents she could just confirm whether it was something that was uploaded last night for the first time. I know there are seven videos that were sent to me last night that were not on the system, so if we could just indicate for the record whether that is one of those documents because I may have a specific objection to that.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Given the late disclosure, apparently, could you make sure you tell us beforehand what it is we’re going to just so we can -- if there are problems, we can outline them in detail.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, Mr. Commissioner. I can confirm to my friend that I’m going to refer to a video that was presented in the document list by the Commission. And it is a video of the arrest of Chris Deering.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And just so that we’re clear, that would be what was produced in the last couple days; correct?
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it was produced a while ago, my friend, and it was produced as part of the list by the Commission.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
We’ll address that later. Thank you.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Mr. Cler, the numbers again for this video are HRF -- thank you. (AUDIO/VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We can pause the video. Thank you. Chris, can you confirm that that is you that’s being thrown to the ground and beaten by the police?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, it is.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure about that question. Let’s be a little careful with how we do that, please.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you confirm that’s you, Chris?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Excuse me?
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can you confirm that is you in the video?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It is me.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I’d like to ask you, Maggie, a few questions about what happened to you on Saturday, February the 19th, 2022. And I’d like to bring up a document -- now, this is a video that I did disclose yesterday and it’s a video of the -- rather, is a photo. It’s a photo of when Maggie was kneeling in front of the police.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
David Migicovsky for the Ottawa Police. For the reasons I’ve already articulated, that should not be allowed. These are things that should have been disclosed long ago and we’ve had no -- I get it sometimes things come up at the last minute, but we’ve had no explanation for why this was not disclosed.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s see what the -- if it’s just a photo of the -- of Ms. Hope-Braun kneeling -- is that all it is?
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s all it is, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m not sure what the prejudice would be, but let’s go ahead.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the number -- the number for that photo is HRF00001612. Just confirming to the right in the green jacket, that’s you kneeling?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes, and the Charter is in front of me and there are several people also kneeling and praying.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Or doing however they’re -- yeah.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Now, I’d like to call up a video, and this is a video of the arrest of Maggie. And she spoke about it and I think it is important, Mr. Commissioner, that everyone here sees it. It’s simply a video of what she already described and put into evidence.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
David Migicovsky for the Ottawa Police. I understand that is one of the videos that was disclosed last night as well.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. And it’s also a video that was available to the public at large via the newspapers.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And can you, for the record, explain why it is these things weren’t disclosed till last night?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, if I may. Unlike some of the institutional individuals and representations here, we, of course, have no control over witnesses. They approach us. We get put in contact with them. It’s -- we get the evidence when we get the evidence and we put before you as quickly as possible. These witnesses have no connection to our process as a party. They were folks that were heard about and were asked to put in contact with. That’s how that works, sir. It just, unfortunately, didn’t happen until, I believe, we even got here in Ottawa, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry. I wasn’t -- maybe I missed it. Are you saying you didn’t get this video till yesterday?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that there was essentially -- maybe Ms. Van den Berg can explain the background, but at the end of the day, I think we provided it as soon as we could. We didn’t have reference to it per se. I’ll let Ms. Van den Berg speak to it.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, Mr. Commissioner, that’s correct, is I did only have notice of it yesterday and I tried my very best to share it with everyone as soon as possible.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s have a look at it and see where we go.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. The numbers for this video are HRF00001614. And Mr. Clerk, I’m going to ask you to pause at two seconds, so to play the video and then pause at two seconds. (AUDIO/VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Maggie, can you confirm that that is you in the green jacket and the blue toque?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It’s me.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Do you agree that the meaning -- because I’m going to go into -- we’re going to -- actually, just let’s continue playing the video. (AUDIO/VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Do you agree that that appears to be a snatch-and-grab method -- snatch-and-grab meaning ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
All right.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- snatching grabbing ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Firstly, this is -- this is a little bit leading, which I don’t think you’re entitled to do. Number two, I’m not sure this is a witness who can talk about police tactics and I think now you’re getting into something that’s a bit unfair. So I mean, you don’t have much time. In fact, you’re -- you have one minute left, so you might want to use it more appropriately.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would like to call up another video, unless I’m going to get objected to and lose another minute of my time. It’s a video of Maggie being arrested.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure this is really very relevant to what I have to decide, how the arrests were actually carried out and whether there were ---
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- no complaints. Now, if that’s how you want to use your last minute, I’m prepared to have a look at it.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did want to ask a question for the both of you, just to confirm that after you were arrested, that you were driven outside the Ottawa City core and told by the police that you ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Once again, that’s leading for a phase you’re not supposed to be leading your witness.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We you were driven outside of the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s ---
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want to ask, the way to ask I’m happy to assist. It’s you ask, “How did it, how was it that, what proceeded after you were arrested? Where were you taken?”
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Chris, ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So ---
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- can you tell us what proceeded after you were arrested?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I believe last we time we spoke, so when the processing line was finished, after the two hours of standing in the freezing cold, not able to sit or kneel, and denied my medication again, I was then -- I had my information taken, I was then placed in the back of a squad car. They read me what I was being charged with, which was public obstruction and mischief. So I said I understood. The police officer then -- the police officer then left the vehicle for five minutes. He came back and he said, “Well, today’s your lucky day. You’re not being charged.” I said, “That’s great.” I said, “Can I know what’s -- why that changed?” He said, “No, you don’t need to know that.” So at that time, I felt that it was my understanding that I’m free to go because I’m not being charged with anything. Then the next five, 10 minutes they put me in a paddy wagon with no direction. They didn’t say, “Go in here.” So, again, I mean, I had no choice. I go in the paddy wagon. I’m there for 25 minutes. I don’t know where I’m going, don’t know how long I’m there. Eventually, the paddy wagon does fill up over the next couple of hours. Then they drive us around for approximately half an hour to 40 minutes. It was very hard to tell because there’s no windows, of course, in the paddy wagon; you know, there’s no concept of time. They then drove us to a Public Works building that was 10.2 kilometres away from Parliament Hill. When they let us out of the paddy wagons, they gave us our possession back. They gave us no paperwork. The police officer came out and he gave us a stern warning and said, “You don’t come back to Ottawa, or you’ll be charged.” They gave us all our possessions back and -- sorry; most of us, due to the cold, our cell phones had died. No-one had any money; no-one had any masks. We couldn’t go into the building to make a phone call. So we were stranded. So we were forced to walk to a Wendy’s that was -- and I forget the approximate distance; we had to walk from that Public Works building in the snow, in the freezing cold to a Wendy’s. I had a called a friend that I had just met prior the night -- on the 17th, I met someone for five minutes and he said, “If you need anything in Ottawa...” And this is the type of people we met in Ottawa. I met him for two minutes, five minutes, and he said, “If you need anything, you call me and I’ll pick you up right away,” and whatever. And he did exactly that. I picked him up -- I called him at Wendy’s, I said, “Can you please us up? We have no money. We have no means. We don’t know where we are, we’re not from Ottawa.” It was just -- I never thought that I would get dumped out of the seat like trash by my -- by the police. It was ---
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And Mr. Commissioner ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re way over your time.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. I was just going to ask if the same thing had happened to Maggie, just to confirm.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I’ll be very brief. So when -- after I was behind the police line -- it’s all in my statement, that’s fair, but I was thrown to the ground and there was a lot of weaponry around, and I looked up and there was a gun pointed, it appeared to be, at my head. And from there, I was taken outside the city and dropped off. And again I was at a towing -- place where they were towing the trucks and there was no shelter; there was no place to plug in your phone. There was nothing. And, thankfully, people came and got us, so yeah.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Residents Coalition.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EMILIE TAMAN
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon. My name is Emilie Taman; I represent the coalition of Ottawa Residents and Businesses. And you’ve both described to us, and we’ve heard from other convoy participants, that your experience in Ottawa was generally a positive one?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It was.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that you found it to be a peaceful and loving atmosphere when you attended the convoy?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
It was amazing. It was the Canadian spirit.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It was. And even between us and the police, up until those last days, it was a wonderful experience.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’m going to ask that a video be pulled up. It’s COA00000135. And just before we start it, this is a video, a compilation of images that were submitted to the Commission before these proceedings commenced, and for the purposes of the record, the video was accompanied by an affidavit with the number AFF00000002 explaining the origins of each part of the video and where it came from. But generally speaking, I can tell you these are videos that were taken by people in Ottawa during the convoy occupation. So if we could play that video, and then I would just ask you to reflect on whether it accurately represents what you witnessed while in Ottawa. [VIDEO PLAYBACK]
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Almost out of time.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. Okay. Well, I guess we'll leave it there. Could I just ask each of the witnesses one questions, please, Commissioner?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you still have a minute or two.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. No, I understand that. It's been difficult to find an appropriate time to put this video into evidence by virtue of the limitations on cross- examination, so, yeah, if we could just finish it and I would just have one question for them. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If we could stop it there. Thank you. And I would just ask you, Ms. Hope-Braun, as a mother of two young children, if a spectacle like this was unfolding in your community, in your neighbourhood, in your front lawn, would you feel safe and peaceful?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Given the events of the last couple years and the actions of our government, it would actually -- I felt very safe there and ---
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I didn't ask you though if you felt safe there.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Sorry.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If this was happening in your neighbourhood in front of your house and you were not a part of this action, would you feel that it was safe and peaceful?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Again, I'm just going to say, given the context of the last couple years and the actions of our government, I -- I've -- would take -- be there with that. Yes, if it was outside of my -- if it happened outside of my door and I had people and I hosted people afterwards and ---
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
While your children were trying to sleep? That would be okay with you?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I won't deny the fact that that would be -- that there was a lot of energy being brought to Ottawa and ---
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I asked if it would be okay with you.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It would be okay with me, yeah.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Deering, if that was happening in your community and your front lawn, would that be okay with you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I'd probably join in, yes.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
You're welcome.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Thank you, Commissioner. My questions have already been asked and answered, so I have nothing further.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner. We have no questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Democracy Fund, JCCF?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROB KITTREDGE
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hi, Mr. Deering and Ms. Braun. I'm Rob Kittredge, Counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. Mr. Deering, I think Counsel for the Ottawa Police Service asked you a question about whether you saw news reports telling you not to come to the protest area after the Emergencies Act was invoked. You replied that you weren't watching the news around that time because the media had been lying about the protest. Do you remember that question?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes, I do.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you saw news reports about the protest before that time; didn't you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
I may have.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
May have cleared some of my questions, but did you see news reports that lied about or misrepresented the protests?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
All the time.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did media reports suggest that the protesters were aggressive?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
They did.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Racist?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
They did.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Violent?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
They did.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
While you were at the protests, did you see any aggression or violent behaviour from protesters?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
From protesters or police, sorry?
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
From the protesters.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Oh, no, not from the protesters, no.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
From the police?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Lots.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you see any racist behaviour while you were at the protests?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, it was a diverse culture.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Ms. Braun, some media reports and our Prime Minister have suggested that unvaccinated people are often racist and/or misogynist. Could you tell me whether you saw any racism or misogyny from unvaccinated people or anybody else while at the protests in Ottawa?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Absolutely not. If anything, if anyone had any of that, there was a lot of healing with that, coming together for freedom, from all over the world.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And things were a little bit rushed at the end of your conversation with Counsel for the Convoy Organizers, but you mention in passing that during your arrest a gun was pointed at your head. Can you tell me a little more about that?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
That's right. So from the video, you saw that I was kneeling down. I had told the officers that I was willing to be arrested and that I would not resist. And at that point, they -- I ended up on the ground with my hands in front of me, and a very heavy knee went into my back, and there was several officers on me. And because I caught my fall with my hands and they wanted my hands behind my back, they kept saying, "Put your hands behind your back," but I couldn't because of the weight. And it took some time, at least a minute, at which point I thought, okay, I'm going to dare look up. And I looked up, and there was a gun right at my head, a long rifle gun.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Which end of the gun was pointed at your head?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It looked like it was the barrel of the gun.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And who was pointing it at your head?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
It was one of the officers. And I remember it was more beige kind of camo.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Before I go to Commission Counsel, Ms. Bath-Shéba van den Berg, normally, the Convoy would be last because you're the ones who -- they're your witnesses, so -- which is why you can't cross-examine, but normally, you'd gone last, so since I took you or you were taken out of order, I'll give you a little more time if you would like to wrap up. Pardon me?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If it's okay, I'll just wrap up for Ms. van den Berg.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Hello?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Hello?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so I just want to ask you a couple of questions about some of your other observations. You saw ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A short wrap up.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So you saw the videos that my friend put up on there?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And she asked you some questions about your opinions on them. Other than those incidents and first it wasn't asked, did you observe those events that were in those videos?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Some of them, but not majority of them. That -- there's a lot of streets that I didn't see so.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And two of the photos in there, one had a Confederate battle flag, the other had a Nazi flag. Did you see any such flags while you were in Ottawa?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No, never.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And what, if any, conversations did you have with other protesters that you might classify as racist, or misogynist, or any form of things that you thought were inappropriate? Did you have any such conversations either of you?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Never. It was full of love, unity and joy. It was the best time after the last two years that I'd -- that we had had. It was incredible.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did any of them ---
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
I didn't have any ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- call for the overthrowing of the Government of Canada by violence?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did any of them ever call for violence at all?
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you see anything with respect to destruction of property?
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
No.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And, Commission Counsel, any re-examination?
Stephen Armstrong, Counsel (POEC)
No re-examination, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony.
Maggie Hope Braun (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Chris Deering (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we're going to be able to take the lunch break for an hour, and we'll come back with our next witness. Is it -- come back at 2:10.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:10 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:11 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. John Mather, Commission Counsel. The next witness is Jeremy MacKenzie. Mr. MacKenzie will be testifying via video videoconference, so if we could just make sure that Mr. MacKenzie can hear us and that we can hear him?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you hear us, Mr. MacKenzie?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, I can, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good. Well, we're ready for your testimony, so we're going to have you sworn, and I see you have Counsel here, so let's -- should we first swear the witness and -- okay.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. MacKenzie, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I will affirm.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Jeremy Mitchell MacKenzie. J-E-R-E-M-Y M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L M-A-C-K-E-N-Z-I-E.
MR. JEREMY MITCHELL MacKENZIE, Affirmed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
STATEMENT BY MR. SHERIF FODA
Sherif Foda, Counsel (Jeremy MacKenzie)
Afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. My name is Sherif Foda. I'm Counsel to Jeremy MacKenzie. Mr. MacKenzie was summonsed to testify here this afternoon. His testimony is compelled. I would just like to make clear that he is invoking his protections under the Canada and Ontario Evidence Acts to protect his interests against self- incrimination, and of course, he benefits from the protection of Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate him or tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or any person but for the Acts you've invoked. Okay? Is that adequate?
Sherif Foda, Counsel (Jeremy MacKenzie)
Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. MacKenzie, we're ready to go. Commissioner Counsel, go ahead.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. MacKenzie, can you hear me?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I'm one of the Commission Counsel. You are appearing today via videoconference from the Saskatoon Correctional Centre; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That's correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that you're being held in relation to charges in a matter that is unrelated to the protest in Ottawa and Coutts; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That is correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that you are from Nova Scotia; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where did you grow up?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I grew up in Pictou County, Nova Scotia.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that you were a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That is correct, from 2017 -- or, sorry, 2003 until 2017.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what rank did you achieve in the Armed Forces?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I retired as a Master Corporal.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you have produced a letter through your Counsel to the Commission and it's a letter that you sent to the Senate. Do you know what I'm referring to?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I believe so, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up JMK00000003? Mr. MacKenzie, can you first just let me know if you can see the document on the screen and you're able to read what it says?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, I can.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And is -- this is a letter that's entitled Diagolon's List of Demands to the Canadian Senate. Do you see that?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, and I'll ask you some questions about Diagolon in a moment. And can you just confirm for us... If we can scroll down to the bottom. ...just again for the Commission's benefit, but also potentially yours, we see that it has a signature block for you at the bottom. And there's no signature here. Do you know if you ever signed this letter?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
No, I sent it digitally to the Senate members.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you recall when you sent it to the Senate?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
It was several days before the Emergency Act was revoked by the government approximately -- -
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, and with the audio I just didn't catch that. Did you say before it was invoked or revoked?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Before it was revoked by the government, perhaps three days, three, four days.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. We can take the letter down. But Mr. MacKenzie, I'm going to ask you some questions, and if you need to look at the letter just let me know; okay?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the letter to the Senate, you describe yourself as a podcaster and a comedian. I take it that's accurate?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, it is.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's the Commission's understanding that you podcast under the name Raging Dissident; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And at one time you had a YouTube channel; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know at -- do you know how many followers that YouTube channel had?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I have had several that have been removed by YouTube for various reasons. Several times it's been 10,000, 12,000. I think the highest may have been 12, 13,000.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you also have a Telegram channel?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how many followers have you had? I appreciate you were giving some ranges there on your Telegram channel.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Roughly, I would say upwards to around 14,000.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on the YouTube and Telegram channel are you positing under the name Raging Dissident?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you also have an Instagram account using the name Raging Dissident; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, I do.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are there any other social media that you use?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Those are the primary -- Rumble as well is another video-sharing website. Primarily those are the ones I use most heavily. I also have a personal page that I typically just use for advertising links and so on on Facebook, Gab, and -- yeah, I believe that's it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the URL for that personal website?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
My own personal .com website?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, the one you were just referencing.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Oh, I have a -- I just have a Facebook page, there's a Rumble website URL, but my personal website is ragingdissident.com.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And do you use the messaging service Slack to communicate?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you ever used Slack?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
No, I've never heard of it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the letter to the Senate, you identify yourself as a founding member of the People's Party of Canada. Is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. The -- when the party was stood up it required a certain amount of signatures to register federally, I believe maybe 250, 500, something in that range. Mr. Bernier put out a request for people that wanted to support his platform and see a party created to fill out the form and sign it and mail it into the appropriate address, which I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you describe yourself as an enthusiastic supporter of the party then?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I wouldn't go as far as enthusiastic, but I am a supporter, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we could pull up the letter to the Senate again, JMK3, and if we could scroll -- zoom in please. And just give me a moment. And continue scrolling down. Continue scrolling down, please. Stop there. It says here in your letter, Mr. MacKenzie: "I am also a founding member of the People's Party of Canada and enthusiastically supported the party through my social media." So would you at least agree with me that you enthusiastically support the People's Party of Canada through your social media? Oh. Is the -- it appears we're having some technical difficulties, so if everyone could bear with us for a moment.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
We lost the audio. Hello? I can't hear anything. Hello?
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the technical team said that it'll be five minutes to resolve the issue, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we'll take a five- minute break and then come back. (TECHNICAL ISSUES/AUDIO ISSUES)
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 5 minutes, la commission lever pour 5 minutes.
Upon recessing at 2:20 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:29 p.m.
MR. JEREMY MacKENZIE, Resumed
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commissioned is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
EXAMNIATION IN-CHIEF BY. MR. JOHN MATHER, (cont’d)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. MacKenzie, can you hear me right now?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, thank you, and I can hear you. And apologies for the technical difficulty and I appreciate your patience while we sort it out. Before we got cut off -- and I’m not sure when you last heard me -- I had asked you whether or not you were an enthusiastic supporter of the Peoples Party of Canada and you suggested it wasn’t necessarily enthusiastic. I had then pulled up the letter that you’d sent to the Senate in which say -- and hopefully you can see it -- that you’re a founding member and you: " …enthusiastically supported the party through my social media, public speaking, and attending events held by Maxime Bernier as well as personal friends, Mark Friesen and Randy Hillier." Do you see that?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so I take it you agree with me that you were an enthusiastic supporter at least to the extent you wrote that in the letter to the senate?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Correct. I misinterpreted the question. I thought it maybe, perhaps, meant “at the current time”. I haven’t been really involved in any party politics since around this time. And in -- as it pertains to the letter and “enthusiastically”, I guess I was referring to throughout the previous federal election that had just transpired in the fall.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on your -- and you mentioned earlier that you are a podcaster. The Commission also understands that these podcasts are often videotaped as well, and the video is streamed; is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That’s correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it’s not just an audio format when you talk about a podcast?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
No, it’s both. I usually extrapolate the audio and then upload it after to several streaming platforms for typical -- more typical podcasting consumption.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on your podcasts, I take it you -- would you agree that you’re outspoken about your criticism of the federal government?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you’re also outspoken about your criticism of the RCMP?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you were, as a general matter, opposed to the Covid-19 public health mandates that were imposed by the federal government?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
In general, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And with respect to the RCMP, as I understand it, you’ve been critical of how they handled the mass casualty event in Portapique, NS, in 2020; is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir. Several days after that event had taken place, I had reached out to some people that I knew in the area and tried to get a sense of -- before I just, you know, started speaking haphazardly without really having any -- you know, as much information as I could. And then I released a video on YouTube which garnered, roughly, anywhere between 500,000 to a million views across various platforms in the following week.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m now going to ask you some questions about Diagolon. Again, referring back to the letter you sent to the Senate, you explained to them that Diagolon is a fictional country. Is that -- at least that’s how it -- it’s origin; is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And from the material the Commission’s reviewed, Diagolon, the origin of it was something you drew on your phone when you drew a line of -- over the continent of North America from the southeast to the northwest of the continent; am I describing that correctly?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. So the concept was born out of a -- sort a long kind of stream of consciousness. I do a lot of analytical commentary on current events, politics, these kinds of things. At the time, I believe it was January 2021, the -- I observed, as many others had, Mid-Western United States, Texas, Florida, South Dakota, and so on, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Alaska geographically formed sort of an oblique line that were resistant to or handling the Covid-19 approach in a different way. These are traditionally conservative areas in Canada, Republican in the United States, so we, you know, kind of found it amusing that there was this kind of geographically divide, almost, that you could find on a map and, you know, it became sort of joke that if this was a pretend, you know, a kind of parallel universe, a different world, and so on, and that’s how the concept was born. The flag you’re referencing is what I created in the weeks following on my phone just as kind of a -- as a mechanism for branding symbolism kind of thing for, you know, community members and it started to become synonymous with myself and the podcast kind of as a -- as I guess a branding mechanism that people would, you know, display and they could buy patches, stickers, and things like this to basically denote that they’re a fan of mine.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So -- and I take it from reading your letter to the Senate and what you just said, you don’t take any issue and you agree that you are associated with Diagolon and the Diagolon flag?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, it came out of my imaginations, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, okay. And you talk about -- you mention there -- I think you said it began as a bit of a joke. But as I understand it, that joke has now elolved into an international community of your podcast fans; is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. It’s also fairly synonymous with another thing that’s been reference, the, you know, so-called “Plaid Army”, which was several -- me and several other guys were just having a conversation one day and we all had similar shirts on. Someone made a joke about, you know, “What is this, the Plaid Army?” So it was kind of -- that evolved into this. It’s the essentially the same thing. It’s the same group of people and it’s a just, again, kind of branding mechanism, a way for -- to unite community followers and so on.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right, and you specifically reference in your letter to the Senate that it has created an international community of your podcast fans; is that correct?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, there are followers and fans in the United States, some in Europe, Australia.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as I understand from your letter that these -- this community engages in regional meet and greets, barbeques, and family gatherings?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, correct. Sometime in the summer of 2021, I believe, we tried to host it in -- just, people wanted to come out and have kind of a meet and greet with myself and some other guys, and we had, as I said, a barbeque, you know, had some drinks, the guys were playing guitars, and so on. I observed that there was a few dozen people that came from as far away as British Columbia, Ontario, even in Saskatchewan, and it struck me as in this time of a lot of people feel very isolated and depressed. A lot of them expressed to me how much this meant for them to feel as though they had some kind of connection and kinship with other people that felt the same way as they did about the future and shared their fears and concerns. So and I just observed how much it seemed to help them, heal them, and make them happy. So I began what I called a "find your friends" campaign. So I used -- using my online presence and my telegram channel and so on, set up kind of regional areas or chat channels to facilitate my -- I mean, not everyone can come all the way to Saskatchewan from PEI, Newfoundland, or so on. So if there's people that are like minded, that are in your area that share this, they're a fan of my podcast and so on and would like to meet each other and share in this kind of activity, then you can do so this way. I was just trying to create a -- you know, an avenue for them to pursue, and I encouraged people to do that rather than sitting at home looking a their screens and you know, being fed, you know, fear and what I believe is a lot of toxic messaging on the media and television and so on. And I thought it would be good for people to get out and have real, face-to-face human interactions and relationships again. And I thought it would be beneficial to their mental health, and I saw that they would -- there were good things coming from that, so I encouraged people to do so.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned a first or an initial barbeque in either the summer of 2020, 2021. After that have you attended personally any of these other meet and greets that you encouraged people to participate in?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
There was one other one in Saskatchewan that I was present. There was another party sort of barbeque in Ontario in perhaps April of this year, and there was another gathering outside the City of Ottawa during the convoy period of time in February.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are there other former Canadian Forces members in the Diagolon community?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, there are. I've often incorporated a lot of my commentary, my unique, I suppose you could say, kind of lived experiences through and true to military, my -- how I deal with my -- you know, the inherent trauma and so on that comes with that. It has gathered a -- it has attracted a fair amount of other veterans and military personnel because they resonate with the things I'm saying when they -- I'm speaking to something that they can understand or identify with, so there is a fair number. I couldn't hazard a number specifically, but a sizeable portion of the community, especially early on where other guys that knew me from work or so on but kind of spread through the areas, because I'm an outspoken guy, right, and so on.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do members of the Diagolon community ever refer to themselves as bigots?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, they do. This was my doing to try and kind of take power out of the word, as it was being used as a slur, as a sign or as a defamatory method towards people like me and my followers and fans and so on. So we just kind of adopted it as a tongue in cheek kind of defiant way of shrugging it off as because it doesn’t bother us that these people are -- you know, actually, if it doesn’t bother me, it shouldn't bother them and they shouldn't care what, you know, these people think. They should let -- allow them to, you know, attack them this way and get under their skin and make them feel bad just because they are who they are and they like who they like.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you and your followers were being called bigots? It didn’t bother you and so as a way to show it didn’t bother you, you embraced it and identify yourselves now as bigots?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
In a tongue in cheek kind of sarcastic tone, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is that sort of tongue in cheek sarcastic tone consistent with the sort of comedy that you perform on your podcasts?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I would say yes, I'm a fairly sarcastic person, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we already -- you already mentioned the Diagolon symbol or flag, and I'm going to pull it up just to confirm everyone can see what we're talking about. If we can pull up COM906? And again, Mr. Mackenzie, at any time, if you can't see anything that I put up on the screen, just let me know.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Okay.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So is that you in this photograph that’s on the screen?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, it is. This was at one of the gatherings, I believe, outside Ottawa, sometime in February. This is a still image from a video that was taken. I was standing on top of a table addressing the people that had arrived and attended and was just simply thanking them for showing up and encouraging them to keep taking care of each other and you know, I hope you had a good time, and so on.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And fair to say that the flag in the background, that’s a Diagolon flag?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the Commission understands that on February 15th, 2022, you said in a video that you could not wait until that flag is seen as a -- or is described as a hate symbol? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. Again, I was being kind of tongue in cheek, in a way, because the people that I believe are deciding what is and what is not is a hate symbol are incredibly disingenuous and you know, kind of smear merchants. It was -- would have been kind of a gotcha trophy over them, not as actually in a serious manner displayed as a hate symbol, but more of an achievement that kind of lured them in more to focus on myself.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you see -- and I take it then, that this is another sort of part of your comedy, wanting this to be called a hate symbol?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. It's because it's again, no one in my community would be surprised to hear me saying these things, and it certainly isn't a symbol of hatred, but we find it amusing that our, I guess enemies, if you could say, do believe this and believe these absurd claims of ours, and it's just kind of an inside joke at this point.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You sell Diagolon merchandise; is that right?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I personally -- I have a shop that has just recently gone online in the past two or three months. Previously, other friends of mine offered, like, the flags, for example, another man was selling patches he was making at cost just to help promote community visibility and give people something to -- I thought it would be nice if some people had something to hold in their hand and kind of have them -- bring them some attachment and just something for them to enjoy in this way.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the people who were selling the merchandise, they were friends of yours?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
They sold it with your approval?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, they did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And they are also part of the Diagolon community?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
They would likely identify as fans of mine, and yes. However, as you can probably observe, it's not a particularly complicate thing to reproduce, so I don’t -- it's not a copyrighted symbol by any means. There's no real official ownership to it as of yet, so people would just approach me and -- of their own voluntary intention, and ask like, "Hey, do you mind if I make this or make that and sell this," you know, whoever. I would say, "No, go ahead. If it gives you something to do, if you can make a few dollars from it and it helps you, then by all means."
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. It's not a nuanced symbol, is it, in terms of its design?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
No, it's essentially just a black square and I used my finger on my phone to do this about three times with a white paint maker selection, and as you can see, it's kind of an irregular -- it's not perfectly straight lines. They're kind of irregular and it's basically just my finger doing this a couple of times. And I sent that image fill off to be produced further.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if someone wanted to show themselves as someone who supported your podcasts or supported the Diagolon community, it would be fairly easy for them to replicate the Diagolon flag; is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I would assume so, yes. It's not difficult to -- it looks fairly simple.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Mackenzie, I think what I'm about to say will not come as a surprise to you, but in fairness, I want to ask you some questions about it. The RCMP has described you in documents the Commission has received -- sorry, I should step it back -- the RCMP has described Diagolon let me be specific, has described Diagolon as a militia-like network with members that are armed and preparing for violence. The RCMP has also described Diagolon as having supporters that express sentiments akin to accelerationism, viewing a coming collapse or civil war as necessary to right the course of the country. In your letter to the Senate, you denied those sorts of allegations. Is that fair?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And in the letter to the Senate, you said that you are under RCMP scrutiny because of the criticisms that you’ve made about the RCMP and as I understand reading your letter, but please correct me if I’m wrong, I understand it -- I understand you to be saying that the RCMP sort of is looking at you closely because of the way you criticized them and that’s why they’re saying these sorts of things about you.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That is my personal belief, yes. There is a -- many, many of the followers in the vans and so on are, you can say, conservative Canadians. There’s an aspect of, you know, firearms, supporting recreational culture and stuff, especially in western Canada, but there’s certainly not anything resembling a militia, right, to this extent.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Moving away from what the RCMP says about Diagolon, I appreciate you wouldn’t have been able to watch the testimony, but we had Superintendent Patrick Morris, who is the head of the OPP’s Intelligence Bureau, testify. He’s not a member of the RCMP and he testified at the inquiry that Diagolon is an extremist entity that holds extremist views. I assume you also disagree with that statement.
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir. It’s my, again, belief and assertion that much of this narrative is coming from certain actors and members of the media. The Canadian Anti-Hate Network and so on has Astro-turfed and kind of laid the foundation of this -- this idea. They’ve been certainly paying me a lot of attention over the past few years and through personal disclosure documents of mine through various legal proceedings, it’s been revealed that the police are actually relying upon articles, if you can call them that, by the Canadian Anti-Hate Network as open source intelligence, so they’re relying upon what these people are saying about me as, you know, taking it at face value.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But to be fair, Mr. MacKenzie, you don’t know what the RCMP or the OPP are relying on in their entirety when they make these assessments, do you?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Correct.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I was going to ask you about two terms, one of which was the plaid army, but thank you, you’ve already explained that, so we can save that question. The next term that we’ve seen a reference to is a term that you’ve used sometimes called “the beach”, and it is our understanding, but again, you can correct me if I’m wrong, that when -- sometimes when you reference “the beach”, you’re referencing D-Day in World War II. Is that accurate?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. It comes from a line in a movie I enjoy, “Saving Private Ryan”. There’s a line in it -- in that film right before the landing craft descend upon Omaha Beach, I believe, where Tom Hanks’ character says, “I’ll see you on the beach”. It’s kind of a reassuring I will be there with you kind of sentiment, so I say this, again, as kind of -- and you know, my followers are familiar with this. I explained it several times. But that’s just kind of a callback to that film and expressing a sentiment that, you know, whatever’s transpiring in the future will -- I will be there with you to support you and guys can support each other and so on. It’s just a message of encouragement, I suppose.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You attended the protest in Ottawa in January and February 2022?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you attended them with other members of the Diagolon community?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you arrive in Ottawa?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
I can’t be certain of the exact date, but it was one or perhaps two days before the main body of the -- of the trucks arrived. I believe it was a Friday evening they showed up. So maybe perhaps that Thursday or Wednesday.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you knew the convoy was coming to Ottawa and that’s why you showed up?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, I did. I observed the -- it was very clear to me by monitoring social media and so on as part of what I do to comment on social -- you know, current events and, you know, analyze political commentary, that kind of thing, that this was going to be a very significant event. It was very clear to me this was not going to be an in and out, you know, weekend protest type of thing. There was videos of long, long -- very long convoys of trucks and vehicles. They were coming in from multiple directions. There were open group chats or voice chats and stuff where these people were communicating back and forth you could listen in on. It was clear this was going to be a pretty big deal, so I -- again, this was going to be something I would be talking about, that would have a lot of my attention anyway, so I decided why not go and get a close look at it as it transpired rather than watch it from -- you know, relying on other sources from home to understand what was happening.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it attracted your attention because the stated purpose of the truckers coming to Ottawa was to end the federal COVI-19 mandates, and that’s a political view you also held; right?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
That seemed to be one of their primary motivations, yes. There was a lot of other -- that was one of the main factors. There was a lot of other discontent in various groups. It wasn’t -- it wasn’t a monolithic that was the only objective for people. Again, there was very -- not really any hierarchy or any real organization that I could observe. It seemed like just a grassroots kind of movement of discontent with the federal government with things that had been transpiring. The cost of living is rising. Social division. Just a lot of the rhetoric officials and stuff were using on television. A lot of people were very unhappy over the past couple of years and it -- basically it -- I would describe it as -- if I could use a metaphor, the pot had just simply boiled over and many people have decided that this was going to be the time that they were going to show up and exercise their right to peacefully demonstrate their discontent and their displeasure with the performance of the federal government.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you arrived in Ottawa, you met people there who were members of the Diagolon community?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And presumably, if you met someone who hadn’t heard of you or hadn’t heard of Diagolon, you would tell them about it and you’d tell them about your podcasts and encourage them to listen and support?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes. If someone was unfamiliar or they asked a question, I would just simply say I’m a social media guy, I have a podcast. It’s political commentary, comedy and some, you know, analysis and this kind of thing. If you’re interested, I have business cards that somebody made up for me. I would hand them out to me and say, “This is the web site if you’d like to check it out” and so on and, you know, have a nice day, kind of thing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And those business cards, they would have had the Diagolon logo on them?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, on one side.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did those -- sorry. You might have cut out. I asked you, did the business cards have the Diagolon logo on them?
Jeremy MacKenzie (Diagolon)
Yes, they did. They have it on one side and then one of my other artistic logos on the other side with just simply the -- the web site on one side and then I think it says “Find me and tell your friends” on the other.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you suggested this is something you’d do if someone came up to you, but I -- is it fair to say, Mr. MacKenzie, you’re in the media business and you want to promote your media so you would also actively hand out those c