Emilie Taman
Emilie Taman spoke 171 times across 9 days of testimony.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Mr. Commissioner. Emilie Taman for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Business and our questions have been asked and answered. Thank you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Merci, Monsieur le Commissaire. Good afternoon. My name is Emilie Taman. I represent the Coalition of Ottawa residents and businesses. I just have two areas I'd like to go over with you this afternoon, if I may, and the first has to do with something we've heard a bit about over the course of this inquiry to date, and that has to do with the -- what occurred at Coventry Road on February the 6th. And you indicated that the PLT had negotiated an agreement with protestors at Coventry Road to remove fuel from that location, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that you were frustrated or disappointed that the OPS POU undermined that trust that was being built by arresting protestors who had left Coventry with fuel in accordance with the agreement that had been negotiated? Is that accurate?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what was your understanding of where the fuel would be going when that agreement was negotiated?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn’t understand that the convoy participants would be taking that fuel from sort of the periphery of downtown and into the red zone, did you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In your view, would it have been consistent with the agreement to take the fuel from Coventry Road and bring it -- essentially bring, like, literal fuel into a literal fire in the core of downtown Ottawa?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And would it be your view then, and I'm just trying to understand, like, if I can just be direct, kind of ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- where public safety considerations were being factored in to the negotiations that were taking place with the Freedom Convoy participants. And I'm just wondering, in your view, what would have been the preferred way of preventing that fuel from ending up in the core of downtown?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, it makes sense because building trust is key to resolving the matter more globally. It's bigger than any one particular incident.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But would you agree then that there was maybe a communication failure on a number of different levels, that perhaps the agreement that was negotiated with the convoy protesters itself was deficient in some way, if it actually permitted them to leave Coventry Road with fuel? Because the objective, I imagine, was to get the fuel out of the city. But if the consequence was that with impunity they could take the fuel from there and bring it downtown, that might have been a communication flaw in the negotiations themselves?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Right, and I think it's important for us to understand that, so that we can prevent making these kinds of mistakes in the future.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the framework that you discussed, the NACP framework, and it has an OPP kind of equivalent, I guess; is that right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you'd agree with me that that framework contemplates taking a flexible approach to demonstrations?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay, a measured approach. And I'd like to ask you some questions about that as well, but would it be fair to say that there's no correct way, you have to adapt your implementation of the framework to the particular circumstances that are before you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so I won't ask the document to come up, but we looked at it earlier and this is the National Framework document. And certainly, if you need to see it, let me know, but I'm just going to quote one part and ask for your comment on it. So it says, "Attention may also be paid to the community at large, who while not directly involved, may be impacted by a demonstration and assembly. The measured approach recognizes the need to balance individual rights and freedoms while also recognizing the rights of the general public, local residents, and businesses to a safe environment. Regular activities of the community at large may be periodically delayed or interrupted." (As read) Sorry.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Got it. "Regular activities of the community at large may be periodically delayed or interrupted and police should work to minimize those impacts when working with demonstrators." (As read) Does that sound accurate to you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you understand that the residents of Ottawa didn't feel their community was peaceful -- excuse me -- or safe at pretty much any time during the Freedom Convoy occupation?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you may be aware that the former Ottawa Police Interim Chief Steve Bell testified yesterday about how the community was used as leverage, a leverage point with the Freedom Convoy to have their voices heard. Do you agree with that assessment?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So he talked about how, as I understood his evidence, and you can just tell me if you agree with this statement or not ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- that the community was used -- disruptions in the community were used as a leverage point with the government by the convoy to have their voices heard. In the sense that the more the community was inconvenienced or disturbed, the more leverage they felt they had with decision makers. Do you agree with that?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So do you have any sense of why, for example, the persistent honking of horns would have been a tactic used by the convoy in the core of downtown?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And would you agree that that was likely to disturb people that lived in the vicinity?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in your view, based on the information that you have, do you think that was a side effect of what was happening, or it was a deliberate tactic?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don't know.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure, okay. So you talked this morning about I think you described it as a continuum analogous to a use of force continuum ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- between negotiation at the one end, and if I understood you, tactical intervention on the other. Is that ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- accurate?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you're trained to move more towards the tactical intervention side when the negotiations are no longer bearing fruit?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So when you're determining whether and how quickly to move closer to that tactical end, would you agree that ongoing harm to the community is a factor that should be given significant weight?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And do you think it's fair to characterize fuel canisters downtown, where there are open fires and fireworks being deployed as minor infractions?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in this context, essentially, it's your view that, for whatever reason, be it resources or otherwise, it was a bit of an either or ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- as between enforcement of minor offences, as you said, and putting an end to the occupation?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Let me rephrase my ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If you're implementing the national framework or the measured approach in a properly resourced environment where you're able to do everything that you want to do ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- in dealing with a demonstration or occupation, would it be appropriate to deal with both the minor infractions and bringing an end to the negotiation -- or to the occupation, sorry?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My name’s Emilie Taman. I’m one of the lawyers representing Ottawa residents and businesses, and it’s a group of community associations and BIAs who were most impacted by the convoy occupation. And I want to start by acknowledging how validating it is for our clients to hear you acknowledge on Friday and again today the significant harm and trauma that they experienced in the course of the occupation. You were asked on Friday by my friend, Ms. Rodriguez for the Commission, whether the streets of Ottawa were more akin to a family fun festival or a tinderbox waiting to explode, and you'll recall, unless I'm mistaken, that you didn't hesitate in expressing the view that it was more akin to a tinderbox. Is that right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And the residents wouldn't be attributing their experience to any particular individual or group, but that was the reality, you'd agree, that they were experiencing within their community?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so I'd take it, then, you'd agree with me that as early as January 29th, when you had the opportunity to walk around and witness for yourself what was happening, that there was extremely loud and prolonged honking?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That they were spewing diesel fumes from idling trucks?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Blockading of streets?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Threatening and anti-social or assaultive behaviour, as you've described it?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And a general sense of chaos and lawlessness?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And as the occupation dragged on and the significant trauma and victimisation that local residents and service providers and city workers and businesses were experiencing were caused by a number of different things, and that would've included, again, the honking, the fumes, and I think you'd agree that also just living under the constant threat of potential fires and explosions as a result of fuel cannisters being stored beside burn barrels and wooden pallets and fireworks, a tinderbox waiting to explode as you described it?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I believe you'd agree as well that there were a number of residents and workers and businesses who did experience harassment and intimidation by some protesters.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've been very careful to say that you would never take away from someone's feelings, and so I take it, then, that you'd agree that there was a feeling among many in the core that they had been abandoned by their government and by their police?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I take it, then, that you would agree that enforcement activities in and around the red zone not only had value but were actually quite critical for public safety?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And my friend from the Ottawa Police Service this morning put it to you that your interest was more about being seen to do something, and you disagreed with that; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that to describe them as small wins or a kind of pandering to residents really grossly underestimates the legitimate risk to public safety throughout that occupation; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Now, my friend from the Freedom Corporation this morning put it to you that any and all complaints of criminality would be investigated and charges laid if warranted, and you agreed with that, but subject to the caveat that police had a wide discretion based on officer safety; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But you wouldn't have direct knowledge of incidents that were reported and not investigated, either due to the exercise of officer discretion or a simple lack of resources, do you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And in fact, there were a large number of complaints or there were a number of complaints made to OPS which would've been difficult if not impossible to investigate because the location and/or identity of the alleged assailants weren't known to the complainant; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And are you aware or maybe you've heard in the course of these proceedings that Councillor Mathieu Fleury made a report to the Ottawa Police Service regarding intimidation and harassment by protesters at his personal residence?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Councillor Fleury's evidence before this Commission in fact was that he reported it to police and he never heard back from anyone about that complaint. So I think -- I put that to you as an example, that, you know, there likely are, unknown to you, numbers of complaints that for one reason or another, in a very chaotic environment, were not followed up on or investigated?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Right. And so I think, ultimately then, you'd agree that any available data regarding criminal activity which was investigated and resulted in charges, is not necessarily a reliable indicator of the scope of criminality in the course of that occupation?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Okay. So I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the lead up to the convoy occupation. And I wondered whether you would agree that two big factors leading to the convoy to become so entrenched, whether as the result of reasonable mistake or misunderstanding or lack of information or otherwise, were, number 1, not anticipating that this would be a longer event that it ended up being. Would you agree that that was a facto that allowed the convoy to become so entrenched?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, no problem.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So perhaps if OPS had anticipated that it would be a longer occupation, the type of planning that would've taken place would've maybe prevented them from becoming so entrenched, that that was a factor?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And that's fair. You've been clear to say that that was also probably one of the missing pieces was the number of people who would stay. And would you agree, then and again, not asking you necessarily about the reasonableness yet at this point, but that had the trucks not been allowed to enter the core, it likely would have been more difficult for the protesters to have become as entrenched as they did?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, appreciate that. And so but do you recall at the January 26th special Board meeting of the Police Services Board where Mathieu Fleury, Councillor Fleury asked you about the possibility of at least holding trucks to truck routes, and that you indicated at that time, or he says that you indicated to him that you had received a legal opinion that the Charter would preclude that activity based on your understanding of the expected public safety risks at that time?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you say external legal advice, are you referring to OPS Legal Services?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. But there doesn't seem to be any record of that internal opinion; is that fair?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you recall asking that question?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And I'm going to just bring you to some of the other evidence that we've heard and get you to comment on it. So Deputy Chief Bell testified that he believed that Ottawa Police did have the authority to stop vehicles entering into the city, but that because the Service had successfully managed vehicle convoys in the past, it wasn't viewed as necessary.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No need to apologize. And my review of Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson's evidence was that she couldn't recall whether a legal opinion had been sought, but that like Deputy Chief Bell, based on decades of past experience managing events, OPS believed it had the capacity to manage trucks in the core.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But is it possible, do you think, that you never did receive a legal opinion before January 28th, and that, in fact, the question of whether to stop trucks coming into the core never arose?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Okay. So I'd like to ask you -- just going to move on to another topic then if you don't mind, sir. You had a discussion this morning with one of the counsel about the role that Navigator played in the course of your managing of the occupation. And if I could just ask, Mr. Clerk, for you to pull up a document, please. It's OPS00005912. This would have been on the Commission's list of documents. And if we could just go back down to the start of the chain? Okay. So here we have an email -- can you just go up a teensy bit more? Yeah. It's from John Steinbachs from Corporate Communications to Erin Kelly and Lee Thompson. And who are they?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that's ASI?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what is that exactly?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And in that first inquiry, if we could just scroll down a little bit, the question is, "Are there any sentiment indicators you can provide us relat[ing] to..." And then it lists a number of issues. So -- and, sorry, what's your understanding of what a sentiment indicator is?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And what was the purpose of seeking this information?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would have received regular briefings from ASI, I take it, by email over the course of the time that you were managing the ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- application? Okay. So if we could go back up to the first page, please? So this is now an email dated February 3rd, again, from Erin Kelly to yourself and others within the Ottawa Police. And it starts, "Hi team. We ran the scenario the Chief asked "What if we were to take further action and what happened in Alberta were to happen in Ottawa?"" So what did you mean when you asked what happened in Alberta?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So you're asking for their assessment of what would be the impact on public sentiment vis-à-vis the Ottawa Police Service if there were to be a failed operation to dismantle the convoy or to ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Fair. And so Erin Kelly then goes on to say, having undertaken that assessment, "Currently, under 10% of people in Ottawa are experiencing deep concern about how the trucker convoy is being handled. Most of these people are downtown, but that wouldn't be surprising to you, right, that the people the most concerned were the people that were experiencing it? If you were to take an Alberta-type action, you would get a 10 percent lift in public opinion from Centertown residents because they're happy you took action, but you would take a 50 percent hit from residents in other parts of the city who were currently not expressing any concern with the situation. If things went south, like in Alberta, then they would blame the Ottawa Police for the misstep. So why would it matter what the sentiment indicators were for residents unaffected by -- and unconcerned about the Freedom Convoy?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the circumstances on the ground were just changing so rapidly that you weren’t even really contemplating a Coutts -- an Alberta-like intervention by the time you received this analysis?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you did continue to get updates from ASI throughout, kind of gauging -- so in fact, if you scroll up to the very top, please, Mr. Clerk, you'll see, you know, anger against OPS is down 10 percent from yesterday. You know, you're trending in the right direction. So I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, do you see why some residents might be concerned that there was a preoccupation with almost a PR matter when, you know, they were going through something really tough?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Understood. So just one last area I want to ask you a few questions about. In your testimony on Friday, you indicated that misinformation and disinformation caused a number of -- are causing challenges as far as policing is concerned, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you agree -- and I believe you agreed on Friday -- that there was a perception in the public that there were elements within your police service who - - and other police services -- who were sympathetic or even supportive of the Freedom Convoy?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right? But if I understood your evidence correctly, it's your view that the public perception in that regard was based on misinformation or disinformation?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And I appreciate that more detailed and nuanced answers because certainly, I think your evidence on Friday might have left the impression that you rejected completely that any high five or selfie or fist bump could be anything but a calculated effort at de-escalation.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But that’s not your evidence?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I'll appreciate that. And you're aware then, I take it, of reports in the media -- and you may even be aware of this from your own tenure as chief that there are at least two dozen current and former members of the OPS who have been identified as donors to the GiveSendGo campaign that was raising money to support the convoy occupation?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And are you aware of recent media reports that there's a review by Professional Standards into a member of the OPS Intelligence Unit, Sgt. Chris Kiez, who authored a pre-convoy intelligence report that expressed sympathy to protestors against COVID-19 public health mandates, described the convoy protestors as "mainstream" and holding opinions that are, you know, the views of the silent majority of Canadians? Are you aware? Have you read any reports of this?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there is a document in the disclosure, that particular report, that has been reported in the media as raising concerns about the -- a perceived double standard between how left-wing, or as Kiez describes them, "professional protestors" and characterizing this particular occupation as more of a grass-roots real authentic movement. But were you aware of any sentiments of that nature among your members in your time as chief?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I was wondering whether you were aware that there is at least a perception of a double standard and how some kinds of protestors, be they, you know, associated with the defund police movement or Black Lives Matter or environmental protestors or Indigenous protestors on the one hand and a movement like this one on the other?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just a final question, then. I take it, then, that you would violently agree that in order to rebuild trust in policing institutions generally, but specifically here in Ottawa after the events of January and February of this year, that it will be important for the organisation to sort of confront those biases straight on and not be shy to recognise when its own members fall short by engaging in that kind of unfortunate analysis?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay, thank you very much. Those are my questions, sir.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Should I go ahead? Emilie Taman for the ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. Yes. We agree, just on behalf of the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. We share the view conveyed by the Ottawa Police. We understand that the Commission is working under difficult constraints and there have been limitations in counsel’s ability to get documents and other evidence to the parties in a timely manner, but in this case, we would agree that there is prejudice and that the evidence, at least as it pertains to the arrests, should not be admitted.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If I may, Commissioner, Emilie Taman, again, for the record. I just wanted to respond to one point made by my friends regarding the absence of evidence with respect to residents of Ottawa who experienced violence in the convoy and, for the record, would just like to note again that the Ottawa Coalition was very limited in the time that was allocated to tell the story of residents of Ottawa. I would also note that there are many residents who continue to fear for their safety in being identified publicly as opposing the convoy, and with that said, I don’t think it’s appropriate to infer from the lack of evidence on that point that there -- that it didn’t happen. And I would also note in ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, it ---
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. But one of the bases upon which it’s being asserted that it is relevant is that there’s been no evidence in relation to violence experienced by residents. And that’s something that my friend put to Ms. Lich this morning, and also Mr. Miller noted it in his submission to you just now.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon. My name is Emilie Taman; I represent the coalition of Ottawa Residents and Businesses. And you’ve both described to us, and we’ve heard from other convoy participants, that your experience in Ottawa was generally a positive one?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that you found it to be a peaceful and loving atmosphere when you attended the convoy?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’m going to ask that a video be pulled up. It’s COA00000135. And just before we start it, this is a video, a compilation of images that were submitted to the Commission before these proceedings commenced, and for the purposes of the record, the video was accompanied by an affidavit with the number AFF00000002 explaining the origins of each part of the video and where it came from. But generally speaking, I can tell you these are videos that were taken by people in Ottawa during the convoy occupation. So if we could play that video, and then I would just ask you to reflect on whether it accurately represents what you witnessed while in Ottawa. [VIDEO PLAYBACK]
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. Okay. Well, I guess we'll leave it there. Could I just ask each of the witnesses one questions, please, Commissioner?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. No, I understand that. It's been difficult to find an appropriate time to put this video into evidence by virtue of the limitations on cross- examination, so, yeah, if we could just finish it and I would just have one question for them. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If we could stop it there. Thank you. And I would just ask you, Ms. Hope-Braun, as a mother of two young children, if a spectacle like this was unfolding in your community, in your neighbourhood, in your front lawn, would you feel safe and peaceful?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I didn't ask you though if you felt safe there.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If this was happening in your neighbourhood in front of your house and you were not a part of this action, would you feel that it was safe and peaceful?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
While your children were trying to sleep? That would be okay with you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I asked if it would be okay with you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Deering, if that was happening in your community and your front lawn, would that be okay with you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Emilie Taman, for the Ottawa Coalition. We don’t have any questions. Thank you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Commissioner. Emilie Taman for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. We don’t have any questions. Thank you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Stewart, M. Rochon, my name is Emilie Taman. I represent the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. And I just have a couple of questions for you arising out of your testimony today. M. Rochon, if I could start with you, please, sir. You explained that within the broader Intelligence matrix in Canada that public safety is a consumer of Intelligence, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you indicated this morning that the government has determined -- had determined prior even to the Freedom Convoy that there is a need for a refresh of the National Security Strategy. Is that right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And the current strategy, I believe you said, dates back to 2004?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And at that time I think you explained that threats to Canada’s national security were understood to be different than they are today; is that fair?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so in pursuing a refresh or in continually considering and reconsidering the government’s approach, it’s a recognition that the current strategy may not be optimal because it could miss certain kinds of threats from groups oriented around certain radical ideologies, or even, as you said I think this morning, individuals acting alone on the basis of a broader range of grievances than the current strategy might have otherwise been built for; is that fair?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And you testified this morning that in the leadup to the Freedom Convoy's occupation of Ottawa, there was no reason to see the convoy as a national security threat; right? Based on the intelligence that had been produced for you?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But ultimately, a national security threat was, as Mr. Stewart articulated, I think adjudicated to exist, at least from the perspective of the federal government, which ultimately led to the invocation of the Emergencies Act; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So as a consumer of intelligence products then, would you agree that the intelligence product you were provided with was flawed in the sense that the threat posed by the convoy was grossly underestimated at every level, OPS, OPP, RCMP, CSIS?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But we can't necessarily know if the issue was how the available intelligence was interpreted, or if it was actually a failure of intelligence to actually see what might have been in front of law enforcement authorities; is that fair?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So we heard from former Chief Peter Sloly that he believes that there is a double standard that exists in how national security threats are identified and communicated, and that right-wing extremism and white supremacy are often not flagged in threat assessments while radical Islam and Islamic-based terrorism threats are. Do you agree with that assessment?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you wouldn't agree then I take it that the potential threat posed by the Freedom Convoy wasn't recognized or articulated as a national security threat because of biases and intelligence gathering and in a reluctance to identify certain types of threats as being national security threats?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mr. Stewart, in your statement, you're said to have expressed the view that the government and law enforcement lack certain tools to monitor social media and properly distill its content to identify threats; is that accurate?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I wonder if you would agree then that it's likely surprising to Canadians that law enforcement continue to have a deficit in that regard, given the central role that social media plays in modern-day communications, and particularly given that it can be monitored on an open source basis. Is that something, to your knowledge, that will be addressed in the refresh or reconsideration of the National Security Strategy?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thanks. Okay. So just switching gears a little bit, we've heard evidence, and I'm completely moving to a different area now, that by February 3rd, Mayor Watson had spoken with the Prime Minister and with Minister Mendocino about the situation in Ottawa and the need for federal resources. From the perspective of Public Safety then, the convoy occupation by that time was recognized to be a significant event; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But no one within Public Safety at that time, on February 3rd, was considering invoking the Emergencies Act at that point; were they?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the Commission's heard evidence that on February 4th, a private citizen launched a class action against the convoy because residents felt completely abandoned by all levels of government and policing institutions; you're aware of that?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But no one within Public Safety at that time was considering invoking the Emergencies Act; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've indicated that it did become an active consideration around February 11th; is that fair?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So would it be fair then to say that the federal government never really saw a role for the Emergencies Act as a tool for dealing with the Freedom Convoy until the international borders were blockaded?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. But a significant part of the consideration with respect to economic harm had to do with international trade; didn't it?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So had it not been for the border blockades, would, in your assessment, residents of Ottawa have been -- continued to have been left to deal with the effects of the convoy despite the tremendous social and economic harm they were experiencing?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But specifically with respect to the Emergencies Act, would you, you know, based on your understanding of the discussions that took place around that, in your view, would the Emergencies Act have been an appropriate tool to deal with the situation in Ottawa had it not been for those other events?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Commissioner. We don’t have any additional questions. Thank you. Emilie Taman, for the record.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Commissioner. Emily Taman for the Ottawa Coalition, and we don't have any questions. Thank you.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening. MY name is Emilie Taman. I'm one of the lawyers acting for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I just have a very short time with you this evening, so just a couple of quick questions, and thank you for being here this evening. I want to just pick up where my friend, counsel for former Chief Sloly left off, and that is in relation to your understanding of what happened at the February 5th Police Services Board meeting. And as I understand it, and I think you've accepted that a key issue at that meeting was whether or not OPS was still providing adequate and effective policing, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s a pretty big question for a police services board to be asking in a crisis, isn't it?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because it implies that they may be asking themselves whether they need to consider their options, maybe under section 9 of the Police Services Act, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. I mean, that’s something that should be done regularly, but certainly, if that question is being asked in a crisis, it's not a routine question? It's being asked because there are concerns as to whether adequate and effective police services are being delivered at that time; wouldn't you agree with that?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you said that the chief didn’t give a direct answer on that question, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you've also said that the chief acknowledged his inability to address the demonstration in Ottawa while maintaining his ability to manage public safety in the city more broadly -- his inability to do that, right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So I just want to be clear though because in the summary of your evidence -- and it may well be that it's an error, so this is an opportunity to correct that -- but on the third page in the last paragraph, just after the footnote 4, it says: "His understanding was that Chief Sloly had acknowledged his inability to address the demonstration in Ottawa while maintaining his ability to manage a public safety in the city more broadly." Is that your understanding, or is that a mistake?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, so -- but he can't do both? He can't deal with the demonstration and maintain public safety?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But he's maintaining public safety? Sorry.
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I guess what I'd like to understand is why it is that you didn’t feel that this was information that the deputy solicitor general should be briefed on, that you have a crisis in Ottawa, you have a board asking questions about the efficacy and adequacy of policing on February 5th. You either don’t have a direct question or you have an indication from the chief that there's a real problem in Ottawa. You didn’t think that was something that the deputy solicitor general should be briefed on?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But there hadn't been a request for the OPP to come in and assume control of policing in Ottawa; right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And if the Board was asking those questions, would you agree that the reason in the context of a crisis to be asking that question is because they're asking themselves whether they might have a duty under the legislation to themselves go to the OPP and request that the service take over in Ottawa?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
December?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. No, no, that's okay. And just finally, I just want to understand the timing of the request by the Board for training. How did that coincide with what you heard on February 5th? In other words, were they trying to figure out what it was that they were expected to do if they had concerns about adequate and effective policing? They're asking for training, they're asking for advice, and they're not getting that. Is that right?
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Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you, sir, those are my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.