Volume 19 (November 8, 2022)
Volume 19 has 297 pages of testimony. 30 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Sandrine Martineau-Lupien.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Dana Earley, Superintendent (Supt) - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 673 times)
- Paul Leschied - Convoy participants, Windsor (spoke 323 times)
- Frank Au, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 275 times)
- Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor - Fort Macleod (spoke 274 times)
- Alexandra Heine, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 168 times)
- Allison McMahon, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 163 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 145 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 96 times)
- Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 79 times)
- Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 77 times)
- Cynthia Lau, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 75 times)
- Ryann Atkins, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 60 times)
- Alan Honner, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 55 times)
- Thomas McRae, Counsel - Windsor Police Service / City of Windsor (Win-WPS) (spoke 54 times)
- Lani Rouillard, Counsel - Paul Leschied (spoke 41 times)
- Jennifer L. King, Counsel - City of Windsor (Win) (spoke 37 times)
- Stephanie Bowes, Counsel - Government of Alberta (AB) (spoke 29 times)
- Martin Rejman, Counsel - Marco Van Huigenbos (spoke 28 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 16 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 11 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 4 times)
- Jinan Kubursi, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 3 times)
- Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 2 times)
- Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 2 times)
- Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 2 times)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 2 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 2 times)
- Emilie Taman, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 1 time)
- Eva Chipiuk, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 1 time)
- Lauren Pearce, Counsel - National Police Federation (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Another beautiful day in Ottawa. Okay. We have a -- let me guess; another witness.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We do.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It’s Frank Au for the Commission, and our next witness is Superintendent Dana Earley from the OPP. (SHORT PAUSE)
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Dana Earley. Dana is D-a-n- a; Earley is E-a-r-l-e-y.
SUPT. DANA EARLEY, Sworn
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. FRANK AU
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Superintendent Earley.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Good morning.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It’s good to see you again.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you. You as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you attended an interview with me and my Commission colleagues back on the 9th of September?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And a summary of that interview was prepared afterwards. I understand that you recently had an opportunity to review that summary, and there's some corrections you’d like to make.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we can bring up that document; it’s WTS00000022. (SHORT PAUSE)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we go to page 13. So I understand there are two corrections you’d like to make on this page, and the first correction is at the first paragraph; am I right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, it’s actually just the third paragraph, in regards to decision-making. I just wanted to make it clear that ultimate decisions in regards to the Operation Plan were mine.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. The third paragraph that starts with, “Following this call,” right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So tell us what exactly you want changed.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There is a sentence there that indicates the direction came from the Commissioner and Deputy Commissioner Harkins. That is incorrect; the decision to move forward was mine.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So that sentence that starts with, “She informed them that the change in direction came from Commissioner Carrique and Deputy Commissions Harkins.” Should be deleted, right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that the first sentence that reads currently, “Following this call, at 7:06 p.m., Superintendent Earley advised her command table that they should proceed,” you want that revised as, “advised her command table that she had decided that they would proceed”; am I right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I thought there was another change you wanted to make to the first paragraph; no?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is there any other corrections you’d like to make?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll have those corrections made and this will be entered into evidence. Now, you’re a Superintendent with the Ontario Provincial Police?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how many years have you served with the OPP?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Twenty-eight (28) years now.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you start your policing career with the OPP?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And back in January when the Freedom Convoy events began, you were a Strategic Commander for the West Region.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What areas were covered by the West Region?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
West Region is basically Collingwood all the way down to Windsor, all the municipalities in that area that do not have their own police service, is the responsibility of West Region OPP.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how many superintendents were there for that region?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There’s three Superintendents.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who are the other two?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
At the time it was Supt. Frankie Campisi, and Supt. Lisa Darling.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do all three of you report to a Chief Superintendent?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who was that in January?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It is C/Supt. Dwight Thib.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And as a Superintendent of the West Region, what were your responsibilities back in January of this year?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
As part of my responsibilities, I support four of the 13 detachments that we have in West Region; and, also, I support the Operational Support Inspector, and take on the role of Strategic Commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And at that time were you based in London?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that on the 9th of February, you assumed a new role when D/Comm. Harkins appointed you as the Critical Incident Commander in Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct. I received a call from D/Comm. Harkins on the night of February 9th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we heard from D/Chief Crowley yesterday from the Windsor Police Service that you established the joint or unified command with the Windsor Police Service that oversaw all the successful resolution of the blockade in Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So we’ll come to those events a bit later.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But I want to start by asking you about your training and experience that qualified you to take on those roles in January and February. Let’s begin with your background with the Incident Command system. What kind of training have you received?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I have been a crisis negotiator for 13 years of my career, and crisis negotiators are used quite often in incidents, so I had experience that way. I am an Incident Commander as well as of 2012, and then in 2017, I was trained to become a Critical Incident Commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of the courses that you had to attend before you assumed those roles, tell us about that, too.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The Critical Incident Commander is a four-week course where you receive training in regards to larger incidents; how to manage them, communication, the execution, the options. You hear several different presentations from your subject matter experts, which include our Emergency Response Team.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could I ask you ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
To slow down?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to go a little slower for the interpreters, please?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Sure. My apologies. Subject matter experts, that would include crisis negotiators, our Emergency Response Team, our Tactical Rescue Unit, our canine units, all options that would be used in a critical incident.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And which institution offer that course?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It’s through the OPP.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what year did you complete those ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Two thousand and seventeen (2017).
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Were there different levels of training for an Incident Commander or Critical Incident Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The Critical Incident Commander with the OPP is somewhat the highest at this point, ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- as far as the training.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand you met some colleagues that you worked with ultimately when you were deployed to Windsor in February.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that’s correct. I took the Critical Incident Command course with now Interim Chief Jason Bellaire of Windsor Police.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And now you also took on some leadership training more recently. Tell us about that, too.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I was fortunate enough to complete the Canadian Police College Executive Leadership in Policing course, which is a year course. And I also finished the Rotman Leadership Course just in the fall of 2021.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you met another colleague who was to work in the Windsor Incident Command; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who was that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Inspector Karel DeGraaf and I completed the Rotman course together.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And isn’t it true that you not only attended those courses and you had experience as an Incident Commander and Critical Incident Commander, you also taught courses in that regard?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I have debriefed different calls on the Incident Command course as well as the Critical Incident Command course.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, there are two frameworks that we’ve heard a little about that, as I understand from our interview, kind of guided you when you approached the situation in Windsor. One was the OPP framework for police preparedness for Indigenous Critical Incidents. For those of us who are not familiar with that framework, can you tell us -- give us a quick overview of what that is?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It stresses the importance of communication and a tiered response, almost like a stepladder that you explore different options amongst -- during the incident to see what option would be best to safely resolve it. An important part of that policy is the fact, as I said, communication and also the introduction of our provincial liaison team. That’s part -- a key part of the framework as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We’ll come to a little bit more about that. And the other framework is the CACP, or Canadian Association of Chief of Police, national framework. And you mentioned in our interview that that was consistent with the OPP critical policy. Tell us more about that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct. It certainly highlights communication and the different tiered responses depending on the situation.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So were you familiar with both frameworks when you took on the role of Critical Incident Commander in February?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. Let’s turn now to -- before we get to your role as the Critical Incident Commander in February, I want to start with your role as the Strategic Commander for the West Region in January. So that was when you were still working out of London, Ontario.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what -- you talked to us a little bit about your responsibilities as the Strategic Commander, but what, specifically, were your involvement with respect to the Freedom Convoy or the protests travelling through the west?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We had -- at the time, we had numerous slow rolls and protests happening throughout our different municipalities. I had oversight on the events, worked with the Operational Support Inspector and each Detachment Commander to ensure that we had the proper resources to effectively look after the protests or slow rolls that were going through our municipalities.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, when Commissioner Carrique testified at the hearing, he told us about a blockade on Highway 402 on or around February the 6th. Were you familiar with that incident?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I was involved in that incident.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about your involvement.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
On February 6th, which was a Sunday, we became aware that the protestors had blocked the bridge, the Blue Water Bridge, in Lampton County. As a result, our Provincial Liaison Team as well as our frontline members were deployed to the area. Our Provincial Liaison Team were able to develop a rapport and a relationship with the protestors and, ultimately, there was a number of different trucks that weren’t able to cross the border at that time, and one of them ultimately was a friend of one of the protestors. And one of the truck drivers -- I believe it was livestock. He had some -- he was travelling with something that needed to be in a certain area by a certain time. PLT liaised with the ruck driver that was stuck and with the protestors and were able to work out the opening of the bridge, so that was a success. The bridge did reopen. We also learned around that time that that group or similar to that group of protestors were planning on doing a slow roll on Highway 402 that week. So we liaised with the organizers of the slow roll and -- to try to find out as much information as possible so that we could have the proper resources in place.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So first with respect to the incident on the Blue Water Bridge, how long did it take to resolve that event?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I’d have to make reference to my notes, but I know it was maybe two hours, at most two to three hours.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So it was really short.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was Highway 402 the highway that led to Sarnia, the Blue Water Bridge?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And would that be within the OPP jurisdiction of the police?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Highway 402 is, correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, you spoke about other slow roll events and we heard a little bit about that yesterday from Deputy Chief Crowley. What other protests or slow rolls were happening in the West Region around that time?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
If memory serves me, we almost had a slow roll in each municipality, but ones that I can recall specifically would be Essex County, Norfolk County, Brant County, South Bruce County, Huron County, so there was quite a few.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And as the Strategic Commander at that time responsible for these events, what steps did you take to monitor the situation or to prepare for any further escalation of the events?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Each event was specifically assigned to the Detachment Commander. He or she would then assign an Incident Commander to have oversight of the specific event happening in their area. They would also work with our Provincial Liaison Team to find out as much information from the protestors. And we would ensure, from a regional level, that they had the supports that they needed.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, were you a recipient of the OPP Hendon Reports?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you read them regularly?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, but I focused on the areas that were involving our municipalities.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So turning now -- turning our attention now to Windsor, we heard yesterday that there was a Hendon Report on February the 4th that deals specifically with the potential blockade. So I could take you to that report. The document number is OPP00000825. If we go to page 6, please. If we go down -- so you see the second bullet says: “Commercial truck drivers and supporters may conduct slow rolls on roadways near the Ambassador Bridge over the next three days and may attempt to block bridge on February 7.” So this seems to be -- compared to the earlier reports, this seems to be more specific warning particular to the bridge and with a date. Do you remember if you received this report or read it at around that time?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don’t recall.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know what actions, if any, were taken by the OPP to mitigate that risk?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I can speak to February 7th. That’s when I became aware through Superintendent Crowley, now Interim Deputy Chief, that the bridge had been blocked. I received an email from him. I then had a conversation with him asking him what he needed, and at that time, he was looking for information in regards to what was available. I said basically whenever you needed ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I think I know the one you’re referring to. Did you say February the 7th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Seventh. That’s ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But before we get to that, I think there was another email earlier that you were copied on, so if I could take you to that earlier email?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Sure.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I believe it’s dated February the 4th, and the document number is WPS000001880. So for context, I believe this is an email from Chief Superintendent Thib to ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- Deputy Chief Crowley, and you were copied on that. So you see the headings, “Windsor Slow Roll” ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- “Bridge Protest”. So you weren’t the direct recipient but you were copied on this.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in this email, Chief Thib talked about the prospect. So if we go to the second line, he said, "Should intel be received or actioned by demonstrators thinking to shut down the Ambassador Bridge, don't hesitate to reach out for joint systems." (As read)
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then you were copied because you were overseeing the Emergency Response Team for the region. First of all, what were the responsibilities as -- for oversight over the Emergency Response Team? What's the Emergency Response Team?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So as part of the Strategic Commander, that's one of the teams that I support. So it's an oversight in regards to do they have the proper resources, training up to date. I work with their team lead in regards to making sure that they have what they need.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in this email, it seems like the OPP was taking a kind of wait and see approach; is that fair?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We were waiting to see what Windsor actually required. So in this email, Deputy Chief Crowley was obviously given my name because of my role as Strategic Commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And beyond waiting for a further request from Windsor, was there anything that in your view the OPP could do proactively to mitigate the risk at this point before the blockade materialized?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Not that I'm aware of.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Well, let's go then to February the 7th. Now you mention an email from Deputy Chief Crowley?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I believe that email is actually dated February the 8th, if we're thinking about the same email, so I'll call up that document, WPS00000 -- or 6 0s, WPS000000374. Now is this the email you had in mind or was there another one?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There was one prior, and we had a conversation as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So tell us about that earlier exchange.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was basically confirming that the bridge had been blocked and that he was looking for an awareness of resources available. We then had a conversation. I wanted to confirm if he was asking for resources or if he was just trying to figure out options at that time. So I learned that he was trying to figure out options of what was available, and it was at that time that we had decided to send together -- jointly, we decided to send Provincial Liaison Team members to Windsor to see if they could assist.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm. So is this email a follow- up to that earlier exchange?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It is.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so when he was asking you, "I know your people are very spread out but my ask at this point is if we were to need to POU or PLT down here, what would availability be?" So it seems like he's ascertaining the potential availability of OPP resources.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely. He's looking for options.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you'd mentioned earlier that you were sending some PLT members to Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was that before or after this email?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That was immediately after. I believe they went down the -- like, that day, because the email's at two o'clock in the morning, so I wouldn't have got it until I woke up in the morning, but ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the sending of the two PLT members was a response to this request?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about POU? He asked about POU here as well.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Again, he confirmed that he was just looking for options, so we discussed options.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So this is February the 8th. Now we heard yesterday that Chief Mizuno from the Windsor Police Service sent a letter on February the 9th, the following day, to Minister Jones. I won't -- I don't think I need to call up that document, but for reference, the document ID is WIN00001648. And in that letter, Chief Mizuno requested a minimum of 100 officers. Now was that request before or after you were appointed as the Critical Incident Commander to Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I wasn't appointed until the night of the 9th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So it would ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So probably before.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Before.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we saw also on February 9th a document prepared by Deputy Chief Crowley. Before I take you to that document, I want to take you first to something you said in your interview about the relationship between resource request and planning. So if we go to your summary at page 9, please?
The Clerk (POEC)
Sorry, Counsel, could I get the ID for that document again?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, it's WTS00000022. And, Mr. Clerk, I'll be making frequent references to this summary, so it may assist to have that document.
The Clerk (POEC)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go to page 9? So, Superintendent, you see under the heading "Relationship between Resource Requests and Planning", you told us that, "...when [you] took command on February [the] 9[th], [Windsor Police Service] did not know the specific numbers and types of officers it required and that the on-the-ground situation on February 9[th] dictated bringing in additional frontline and traffic officers to ensure public and officer safety. OPP accordingly sent as many officers as possible. After Superintendent Earley arrived in Windsor on the morning of February [the] 10[th] and began to develop a plan, she was able to develop more specific numbers and types of resources required to ensure that police had options to respond to various contingencies." So I want to show you a document that Deputy Chief Crowley prepared as of the 9th and ask you if that reflects the kind of lack of specific types that you mentioned in the summary. And that document is WPS000000610. So we heard from Deputy Crowley yesterday that he prepared this on the 9th when Windsor made the request for a hundred officers. If we scroll down a bit, so it talks about different shifts and so on, and then there's more about the situation at that time.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Does this reflect your understanding of the nature of the request that was sent on the 9th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I'm not sure if I know what you're asking, but it reflected what they thought at the time they required.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So when I arrived and we were able to assess the entire situation together, that's when we started to figure out plans and options and then therefore the resources to support those.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I guess what I'm wondering is, how is this kind of request in terms of what was needed different from the kind of request that you would have made to the different POU units across the province, for instance, after you arrived and started developing a plan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, this specific request that you have posted here is for the frontline. So POU was in addition to that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So I don't know if we could compare the two. But when the unified command was created, we had a mission, and that was to open the bridge, to get the flow of traffic back with officer and public safety being paramount, and then that's when we started to develop the plans which included a POU option.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we go back to your interview summary, to that page that we were on before, you see the last sentence of that paragraph, "She explained that developing an operational plan was essential to ensure that the deployment of resources would be impactful and resolve the blockade." Why was it essential? Why was an operational plan essential?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, before you request resources or you have officers attend, you need to be able to articulate to them the expectations of their role, why they're coming, and the tasks that they are -- will be given. And without a plan and a mission as to what you want to achieve, that would be very hard to do.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So these are the initial steps before you became the Critical Incident Commander. So let's turn our attention now to February the 9th when you got a call from Deputy Commissioner Harkins ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- appointing you as the Critical Incident Commander. Tell us about that initial call?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Deputy Commissioner Harkins called me. He asked if I could attend Windsor to assist, that my role would be the CIC of the event, and that it was an urgent situation, so that I would receive the resources that I needed. He also alerted me that I had a teleconference that I needed to join within minutes. So the phone call was very quick.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So there was an urgency that he impressed on you. And just to understand the nature of the role of a Critical Incident Commander, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- we’ve heard evidence before about the different tiers of command. There’s the strategic command, there’s the operational command, and there’s the tactical command. Now, you were operating as a strategic commander ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- before this appointment.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what is the role of a Critical Incident Commander? Is it operating at a strategic or operational level?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It’s at an operational level, and specifically assigned to an incident.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So what was the objective of your appointment as the Critical Incident Commander? Or for short, I’ll just call it the operational commander.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm. The mission was to restore the flow of traffic to and from the bridge and into Canada and the U.S. with respecting the Charter of Rights and keeping public and officer safety paramount.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I understand that you went to Windsor the next day?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But on the 9th, you were still in London?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What time did you get that call from Deputy Harkins?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was approximately 7:30/quarter to 8:00, and then I was on teleconferences until well into the early morning.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you got the call in the evening and you started to make some other calls?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about those other calls, the initial call that you made.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There was a call to my Chief of West Region to provide him updates, and he was well aware, because the Deputy Commissioner had contacted him. I also had teleconferences with the POU hub and the different team leaders of the POU teams.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What are the POU hubs?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They were hubs created that consisted of different POU teams from different services that were being deployed throughout the province to assist with protests.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you said services, are these OPP detachments or are these municipal services as well?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
OPP and municipal.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
How many POU units are there across Ontario? Can you say?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I can’t, sorry. I can tell you who was on the calls or who I dealt with, but it included, obviously, our team, it included Hamilton at the time, and Waterloo, and ultimately London assisted as well, and RCMP.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you reached out to the POU units in these municipalities that evening?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. So the Deputy Commissioner had advised me that the teleconference was already set, it was already scheduled, and that I would be joining them, and they would learn that I was going to be the CIC and unified command in heading to Windsor.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you find out from the teleconference about the availability of these POU teams?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We discussed numbers and what was available. We discussed relative, like, to the incident, you know, in regards to when could they attend, who was available to assist with planning. So those were the basis of the conversations.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was there a request to deploy those units on that evening?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you ask for?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I asked for the planners. So each team identified basically a team lead or a planner. So I asked for the planners to join me in Windsor the next day.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, at this stage, you didn’t have a plan yet; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go back to what we talked about earlier, about the need for a plan to inform the asking of resources, what did you ask for and what could reasonably be expected at this stage?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I needed them to become very familiar with the incident and all the details of the incident, and then create a plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about numbers?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well I needed to know what would be available. But again, it wasn’t until they had a plan that they would say, “That this plan requires this many officers.”
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you talked about how you spoke to the Chief. I believe that’s Chief Thib?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You spoke to -- you had -- you engaged in these teleconferences about the POU availability. Who else did you call?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe it was two -- well, it was with the Chief and two other teleconferences with -- again, with POU hubs.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about -- did you make contact with Windsor Police Service at all?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did. I spoke with Deputy Chief Crowley.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And tell us about that conversation?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
He provided an oversight and situational awareness for me in regards to what they were dealing with at the moment. We talked about logistics, obviously when I would be arriving. I gave him an overview of the teleconferences I had been on in regards to POU.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M’hm. Now, if I could take you to another OPP document? It’s OPP00004540. I understand that that night, the last thing you did that night, at 11:59 p.m., you sent an email to your superiors summarizing the situation in Windsor as you’ve gathered. So I’m taking you to that email. Could we go to page 14, please? Go down. So February 9th, -- I was wrong on the time. It’s at 23:58. So two minutes before midnight.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You sent an email to Harkins and DiMarco. Who is DiMarco?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That is Deputy Commissioner DiMarco.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How many Deputy Commissioners are there?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There are three, and there’s a Provincial Commander as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you sent an email to these two deputies and you summarize the situation as you found them in Windsor. Can we scroll down further? There are many bullet points. I want you to help us unpack the situation a bit based on these points. What did you learn was the situation on the ground in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I learned, obviously, about the numbers, what they were dealing with in regards to attendance, as well as vehicles, the types of vehicles. I also learned the area that they had kind of blocked the length of it, where it is located in the city. I also learned about an arrest that was made. So there was a person who had jumped the curb and into the crowd. That person, obviously, was charged and arrested with dangerous drive.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M’hm.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And that the crowd became very agitated when the arrest occurred. And they actually took the opportunity to expand the area that they had been in. I learned too, from Deputy Chief Crowley, that the crowd itself was somewhat disorganized and disjointed, hard to kind of figure out exactly what they wanted, or to communicate or negotiate with them. And at that time as well, he explained that there had been a number of transport trucks and vehicles on the bridge, but they had all been removed at that point. So I made the decision that I asked S/Sgt. Jamie Smith of Essex OPP, so he would be the closest Incident Commander, to attend the Command Post for the evening. I also asked that our situational reports be implemented. So it’s basically a template. We introduced those to the Command Post. And I asked for those to be provided to me every two hours until my arrival. And then they continued while we were there.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So that’s what you did that first night?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we go back to your summary, I want to take you to page 3, because you spoke to us about this email. And then at the end of that paragraph, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- you said: “Superintendent Earley nonetheless believed that a policing solution to the demonstration was possible…” What did you mean by that? The policing solution, in your mind?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I still believed and was hopeful that negotiations could occur and that we could develop a rapport and a relationship with the protestors through our Provincial Liaison Teams.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was that an approach informed by the two frameworks that you told us about?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, before we go to the next day, earlier that day, before you got the call from Deputy Harkins, I think you told us in the interview that you watched a morning press conference where the Mayor, the Mayor of Windsor, Mayor Dilkens, requested resources without specifying the numbers. Do you remember that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, I don’t remember specifically watching it, but I do know that a request was submitted.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So -- and during our interview, you shared your perspectives on making public announcements of this nature. Tell us about your view on this.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
In regards to specific numbers requested at incidents?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No. About making public announcements. I think we’ve heard some evidence that, normally, the requests for resources go from one Chief to another, from Chief to Chief.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it’s not typical that public announcements by politicians were made and you shared your perspective on this kind of public announcement, so I’m just hoping that you could enlighten us.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay. It’s been my experience that when any municipal service requires our assistance, no matter what the incident, the request needs to go from their Chief to our Commissioner. The Commissioner’s command team then reviews the request and deploys the requested resources. So to hear it come from a politician was different from my experience.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And after you became the Critical Incident Commander, did you take any steps to change the approach or any kind of media strategy that you adopted?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I respect the fact that any Council or Mayor, they can have their own press conferences and release information, but I urged Windsor Police Service to work with the Mayor’s office to make sure that our messages are consistent.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was any further public announcements made for resources after you assumed the role of Critical Incident Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Not that I’m aware of.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, in this case the announcement on the 9th did not specify a particular number, how many officers were needed. Do you have any view on whether those numbers should be made publicly in a request?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
In my opinion, I do not believe that they should be made publicly.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why not?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It jeopardizes perhaps the public and police officer safety. By letting the public know the amount of officers that are attending may lead to people then bolstering their protests or whatever that looks like if they know the tactics or perhaps the amount of officers that are attending an incident.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let’s go now to the next day, February 10th. I understand that you had an early morning call with Deputy Harkins, right ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- at 8:30?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And Deputy DiMarco.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Deputy DiMarco. So tell us what was said in that morning call.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They wanted to make sure that I had started implementing a team, putting a team in place, and obviously, I had told them that I was on the road. I was heading to Windsor. And they indicated that whatever resources I needed, they would be provided.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was anything said about Windsor being a priority?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. They stressed to me that Windsor was my priority and I needed to focus solely on Windsor, and that it was a priority for the province.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did they explain why Windsor was a priority?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, if I could take you to page 2 of the summary. So if we go to the third paragraph near the middle of the paragraph, do you see the sentence that starts with, “During a February 10th 8:30 a.m. call”?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So it says: “...Deputy Commissioners Harkins and DiMarco again advised Supt. Earley that Windsor was the priority and that it was urgent to resolve the blockade. Supt. Earley understood that the resolution was urgent because the bridge closure was having massive economic impacts, including job layoffs, on Windsor, Ontario and Canada, that the crowd of protestors at the blockade was increasing in size and that the public and officer safety risks were escalating.” Now, you understood that to be the case. Was that -- where did that understanding come from?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was part of the conversation, but in regards to the increase in size, the economic impacts, the risks to public and officer safety, that was from my awareness from the teleconferences I had been on and discussions with Deputy Chief Crowley.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you had this call at 8:30 and I believe by 9:00 a.m. you had your mission statement written.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go to the summary at page 5, we excerpted your mission statement, I believe, from your nots.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it reads: “The OPP and our policing partners will keep the peace, enforce legislation, establish and maintain the safe flow of traffic and respecting individuals’ Charter rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of speech, with public and officer safety being paramount.” Why was the mission statement or the drafting of the mission statement such a priority for you?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It is the -- well, it’s the goal of any team member no matter what uniform you’re wearing, your rank, your role in regards to the team. That is our goal during the incident.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did this version of the statement continue to be the mission as events unfolded?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I understand that the plan was finalized by the end of the day on the 11th and the plan was implemented on the 12th. Was this the same statement that appeared in that ultimate plan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
How did you come up with this plan? How did you draft it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Based on the situation, right. That’s where your mission comes from and what your goal is, what you’re trying to resolve. That’s how your mission statements come through and, obviously, as a CIC in the training that we receive, we -- mission statements and the importance of them are discussed.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And there are references to respecting individuals’ Charter rights. How did you intend to do that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely. Well, by, obviously, giving them the right to peaceful assembly and to honour their freedom of speech. We tried to do that through communications with our Provincial Liaisons Team.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So that was 9:00 a.m. What time did you arrive in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I think it was approximately 10:00. I had to stop and pick up my scribe as well, so I think it was around 10:00, 10:30. I can’t -- I’d have to refer to my notes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the scribe supposed to do when you’re the Critical Incident Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So the scribe is a very important role. She took all of my notes for me, so she captured the majority of conversations and timings, people’s phone numbers, whatnot.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the different volumes of notes that we ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- received in disclosure, those were the scribe notes, not your notes.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you went to Windsor and you met with the command team from the Windsor Police Service.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about that meeting. What kind of reception did you receive?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Very welcoming. Because of the relationships, I knew, as I said, Deputy Chief -- at the time Deputy Chief Bellaire as well as Inspector DeGraaf. They then introduced me to other members of their command post. It was referred to as the EOC here as well, so I met everybody. They were very welcoming. They appreciated the support and the assistance and the resources that the OPP was providing. And they also welcomed the experience that our organization has in regards to major prolonged events.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was any decision made at that initial meeting about how the WPS and the OPP would be working together?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Certainly it was -- right off the start, it was a unified command. They ultimately respected that I would have final say on a lot of the plans because of the amount of resources that we were bringing and it included. But everything before it was decided was always referred to by both myself and the CIC from WPS.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So yesterday we heard from Deputy Crowley. I think he described the relationship as -- I’m trying to look for his description. He described the integration as seamless and he talked about how the OPP and WPS commands would at times be stepping forward and back. Were you here when he testified?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I watched it, yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You watched it.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree with that description?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was seamless, and we supported each other. It was a remarkable team effort.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in your interview with us at page 3 of your summary, you refer to this high degree of trust and confidence. Tell us more about that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
As I mentioned, Windsor Police respected the experience and the skillset that the OPP was bringing to the table due to the numerous events we’ve experienced as an organization in regards to critical incidents, and protracted critical incidents in particular. So with that, that’s where the trust and the respect came through. But at the same time, we weren’t able to do what we did if it wasn’t for the local knowledge and the networks and the partnerships that Windsor Police already had in existence.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I think Deputy Crowley referred to this command structure as, “Unified command” and in your interview with us you referred to it as “Joint command”; are they the same thing?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Pretty much, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We’ve heard other terms in Ottawa; “Integrated command”; like, what’s your understanding if there are any differences between integrated, joint, or unified?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Really, I think to explain ours, unified would articulate it best.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in terms of the expertise that the OPP was bringing, I think yesterday Deputy Crowley referred specifically to maybe planning, and specifically to POU planning.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can you elaborate on that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. So when I arrived in Windsor, I requested a subject matter expert in regards to POU planning, Insp. Jason Younan. I contacted him and I requested he attend to offer his expertise in regards to a plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry; name again?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Insp. Jason Younan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Well, that’s -- let’s talk about the command team, then. Because after you arrived in Windsor, I guess one of the first things you did was to assemble a command table.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And during our interview you said that you wanted broad representation at the command table, and subject matter experts in all the essential areas to ensure that those areas are covered. What are the major areas that you had to cover?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Those areas consisted of traffic, crime, Provincial Liaisons Teams, media, and logistics and resources. In addition to that, we also were able to set up a staging area, so there was a team that was in charge of the staging area as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about Intelligence?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely, yes, Intelligence as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how as Intelligence represented at this command table?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They deployed a team leader to sit in the Emergency Operations Centre with us, and a team member as well. So they were constantly feeding us any intel that they were getting. And I’d like to mention, too, all those subject matter expects that I just listed off there, it wasn’t just OPP, but Windsor had the same representation. So, for example, in intel, we had OPP intel as well as Windsor intel in the Command Post.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you had subject matter experts from both OPP and Windsor Police Service represented at the table?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And they included Intelligence; I think you mentioned PLT?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
POU; you mentioned Insp. Younan.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who was responsible for logistics?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Insp. Wendy Burrow, as from OPP, as well as Insp. Jenn Crosby from Windsor Police Service.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about other agencies, such as the CBSA?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. So CBSA was included in the Command Post. They had a representative there, a team leader, as well as the Windsor Fire had representation and Windsor Emergency Services, the paramedics.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why was it important for these other agencies to be included at the command table?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
All of those -- everybody who had a part of our Command Post provided us with different options, right? And options are very much needed in an incident like this. So it’s important to create an environment that’s inclusive, and communication is key so that everybody could provide ideas to resolve the situation effectively. Because the situation itself was very dynamic and fluid, we wanted to make sure that everything was covered. If you think about Fire or EMS, that they were in the loop just in case we needed their assistance, which at times we did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I understand you also set up a system where you had alternates so that you can go to sleep.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who was your alternate?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Supt. Derek Needham.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was there a similar system for the Windsor Incident Command?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who are those two?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So Insp. Karel DeGraaf worked days with me, and then at night it was D/Chief Crowley.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why is it important to have these alternates?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
To go and rest your head for a little bit, and obviously just to provide some relief.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, so far, we’ve talked about the team at the operational level, the command table that we just talked about. I want to ask you now about the relationship between the operational level functioning and the strategic leadership.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So on the Windsor side, who was the Strategic Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe you would have to confirm with them, but I saw that Deputy Chief Bellaire.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And would the Chief of the Windsor Police Service also be at the strategic leadership level?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about the OPP, who were the strategic leaders?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
For West Region, Supt. Campisi looked after that role but also -- it would have also included our Chief, Chief Thib, and then the OPP command as well, Commissioners and Deputy Commissioners.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So Comm. Carrique?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Deputy Harkins.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, during the interview, you spoke to us about the importance for the strategic leadership to give the Operational Commanders autonomy.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us more about that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. The autonomy that is required is very important because decisions need to be made in a very timely manner when dealing with critical incidents. So that’s -- really highlights the importance. They also know and can trust in the -- not only the experience the team has but the training, and the subject matter experts, the skillset that they bring. So they know that those decisions being made are the best options for the situation and what’s happening.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Help us understand why is autonomy connected to timeliness of decision-making?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
You need to make sure that a decision is made. The failure to make a decision can almost be just as bad as making an improper decision. So that’s why the timeliness is very important, right? And these situations, things are happening minute by minute. You need to be able to make decisions based on your awareness. And the CIC has the best situational awareness to make those decisions.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why was it the CIC who had the best situational awareness?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
You are in the midst of it. You have all the intel coming in; you are there. You have all the feedback from your subject matter experts, so that’s why you have the utmost situational awareness.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
During your time in Windsor as the Critical Incident Commander, did you enjoy the kind of autonomy that you expected from this strategic leadership?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did, and I appreciated it.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
How was your relationship with the Windsor strategic leadership?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The same; they respected it from their command in the Command Post, as well as mine.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you experience any interference at all, improper interference, with your decision- making as the Operational Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about the City of Windsor or the Mayor’s Office, did you experience -- what was your relationship with those entities?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Very little. Windsor Police dealt with them and liaised with the City.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Okay, so we’ve now covered the command team and the relationship with the strategic leadership. I want to talk to you now about the plan. We talked a bit about the plan, and I understand that you came to Windsor on the 10th but by the end of the day on the 11th, you had a plan finalized and ready for action; am I right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
How did that come about?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The remarkable team that I had. So with the mission that was set out that everybody was very much aware of, the expectations were clearly explained to the officers and the subject matter experts in regards to what was needed, and that’s how plans came together.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, let’s talk about the different elements of that overall plan. During the interview you mentioned many subplans.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you said those are necessary as part of the contingency planning.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And they involve areas like traffic, towing, mass arrest, prisoner transport, and some of the other areas that we talked about; intelligence, PLT, POU, and so on. I want to ask you specifically about three of those areas.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I would start -- I want to start by asking you about the PLT element.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So through the PLT planning, I understand that you came to learn something about the protester's group, about the leadership, as well as about potential counterprotests.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So let's talk first about your understanding of the leadership. What did you learn through the PLT planning during those two days?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I learned through PLT that the protesters themselves were described as disjointed. They had different goals. It was explained to me that the PLT was really dealing with three different groups within the protesters, and that was causing a concern, as well as it was a challenge for our PLT to develop rapport or to really get anywhere, because the groups themselves were not agreeing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I also learned from PLT of counterprotests as well and the concern for that. So they had had discussions with an -- or a member from the auto union and he expressed his displeasure with the protest and, in fact, was sharing with them that he was going to take matter into his own hands if it was not resolved. I was very grateful for the rapport and the relationship that PLT was able to develop with him, and through that, we asked for time or his patience.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If I could take you to your summary, because I wanted to ask you about that incident.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we go to page 11? So this is - - you talked about this incident involving the president of the local autoworkers union chapter. You see in the middle of the paragraph?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
"...PLT informed Superintendent Earley that David Cassidy, the president of the local autoworkers' union chapter, UNIFOR Local 444, claimed that he had spoken to Ontario Premier Doug Ford and that he was willing to bring autoworkers to the blockade site to forcibly clear out protestors by Monday, February [the] 14[th] if police had not cleared the blockade by that date." What kind of danger does this pose to your team as you were planning for action, the weekend?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
This is extremely concerning as the CIC and it was just other options now that I had to consider that not only the protesters perhaps would not like the plan of action, but we may have counter protesters attending as well that would create significant issues for public and officer safety.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So was this an example of how you incorporated PLT in planning for contingencies?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Let me ask you now about the POU planning. So you mentioned earlier that Inspector Younan was in charge of that aspect?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that on -- was it the 10th or the 11th that you had a number of meetings with him and he advised you. So let's go to your summary, maybe that ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- would help us both.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Page 6 of your summary. So you see that at 4:21 p.m. ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- you had a meeting with Inspector Younan and he advised you that, "...a mass removal of protestors would be neither safe nor sustainable..." Tell us more about that discussion.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So this is after he had arrived in Windsor. He obviously had time to deal -- to meet with all the other team leaders from the POU teams and as well take a look at the situation itself. He understood because it was such a long area, the three to four kilometres that they had occupied, that it would not be safe, as he stated in my summary, to clear the entire area all at once. So with that, he provided options to clearing out different sections of the protest area.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you agree with his assessment?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was this an example of how you as the operational commander defer to your subject matter experts?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The third area I want to ask you about in terms of planning is the involvement of the intelligence experts.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was it your objective to have your operation be intelligence led?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I mean, intelligence does need to be considered in regards to what we're finding on open source or wherever the intelligence is coming from. And it was important to hear also from both teams, so from the OPP Intelligence as well as Windsor Intelligence. Because of the different networks that both teams had, they were providing us with a better situational awareness.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in terms of the tools available to your team, as I understand it, in addition to open source, which you've mentioned, you also was getting some help from the U.S. partners?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That was mainly through Windsor Police Service because of the relationship they had with intel through the States.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of other resources available to you, I understand that there was a drone that was made available?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
As well as pull cameras from the CBSA?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And even a helicopter on the day of the operation?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Again, just to provide current and up-to-date operational -- or, sorry, situational awareness, so that we could have an idea of exactly what was going on in this very dynamic situation.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We've also heard yesterday about the presence of children ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- during the blockade. And how did intelligence inform your planning about this aspect?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I would say that was a concern of mine that if we had to use the plan of action that I wanted the lowest amount of children to be there. Intelligence was able to provide me with areas that they had detected where the children were hanging out or were present in the protest. They were also able to tell me that, because of their intelligence, because of their overwatch, that the majority of the children went home at night, and very little of them stayed overnight. And so that led me to, obviously, looking at the option of going first thing in the morning with any plan of operation if needed.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was that the plan to have the action begin early in the morning?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what considerations led you to that decision?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Knowing from intel that they had not observed any children overnight and that when children were present, it was usually not until later in the day.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about the size of the crowd?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely. So the -- and certain times of night, so the crowd, as in my summary and I know Deputy Chief Crowley spoke to it, it would get more unruly at certain times of night, and so we had to consider that and numbers were higher at certain times of night. But as it got colder and the later it got in the evening, a lot of people did return home. So by considering an early morning operation, that again would decrease, hopefully decrease the number of protesters that we were dealing with.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm. So we've now talked about the different elements or sub-plans within the overall plan.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Turning our attention now to the overall plan. If we go to your summary at page 6, and we go down, that's right, to the section "Approval of Plans", the second paragraph. So, "On February [the] 11[th], Superintendent Earley also approved an overall operational plan titled "Operations Plan: Freedom Convoy, Windsor Ambassador Bridge." The plan stated that it contemplated "an escalation in police response that is a considered and measured approach," and that "[e]vents associated with Ambassador Bridge blockade/convoys shall be addressed at the lowest competent level in an effort to affect a peaceful resolution." " So earlier, you mentioned in the context of discussing the frameworks, I think you talked about the measured approach, the use of PLT to engage and all of that. I want to ask you specifically to explain about this concept of addressing events at the lowest competent level in the context of a kind of ladder or escalation. What does that mean, the lowest competent level?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The less invasive, the less - - so lowest competent level would be -- the prime example would be our Provincial Liaison Team, you know, being able to discuss the removal or -- of protesters. For them to leave on their own would be ideal.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So that's what you would try first?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then if that did not meet with success, then you escalate?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What would be the next ladder or the next step up the ladder?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I think jointly along with PLT, we are also using a media strategy to make sure that we were educating everybody in regards to that it was unlawful to be there, that there was other options that they could express freedom of speech. So there was the media attached at the same time as Provincial Liaison Teams were trying to develop rapport with the protestors.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then if that didn’t work?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So next steps, we looked for different options in regards to enforcement. I do know that I had conversations with Windsor about their bylaws. There was a number of different parking bylaws in that area. So we learned that the protestors would park on side streets and then attend the protests. Their parking on side streets were illegal. So their bylaw enforcement was then deployed to the area. So a number of different tickets were given out to the vehicles, as well as some were towed. So that’s just another level to let protestors know that they aren’t to be there.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What’s next step up?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So again, all of these steps are not independent. All of these things are continuing. So even as cars are being towed by bylaw, we’re still trying to have negotiations and develop rapport with the protestors through PLT, we’re still using media to get that message out. The next step would be enforcement.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So we heard yesterday that even during the enforcement phase, attempts were still being made to allow some protestors to continue to protest, perhaps on the sidewalk outside the exclusion zone. Can you tell us more about that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So the set area, or the operational area, was certainly explained through our social -- our media strategy, through the PLT, that people needed to remove -- be removed from there, or remove themselves. And then other options throughout the city are really available. Any public area. We have to keep in mind though that there are private businesses as well, and they wouldn’t welcome protestors. So we had to make sure that we educated them in regards to that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So by the end of the day on February the 11th, I understand you approved this plan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were you satisfied that you’d received all of the necessary resources by then to implement the plan the next day?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the plan then was to implement the action on the early morning on the 12th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to take you now to some specific events that unfolded on the 11th while you were making these plans.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I understand that some time in the afternoon while you were working on your plan, things were happening on the ground, and specifically, there was a kind of perceived breakthrough with the PLT team; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us what happened?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
One of the protestors had approached our Provincial Liaison Team and stated that if they had received a letter from the Government indicating that the Government was willing to meet with them, that they would leave. So PLT brought this to my attention immediately. I then asked for assistance through my command team to see if this letter -- see if the Government would agree to this, and to see if this letter could be produced.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in our interview, you described this as a kind of breakthrough because this was the first substantial request that the PLT team received from the protestors?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, it was very hopeful.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go to your summary at page 12, so the second paragraph, at 4:25 p.m., that’s when you spoke to Commissioner Carrique about this request?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then by 5:29 p.m., a draft letter was already approved?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That’s remarkably quick. Within hours.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What happened during those hours?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Quite a bit of back and forth in regards to just clarity as to what Mr. Neufeld was asking. And then, of course, it was the Commissioner’s command team who assisted in getting the letter so quickly, but it certainly demonstrated that we were trying our best to, you know, to get the protestors what they were asking for.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You were still optimistic about the lowest competent level?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. Yes, I was.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So at 5:30, you engaged -- you took part in a teleconference ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- with some of the strategic leadership and you learned that -- so if we go down further the page. So near the middle of that paragraph, starting “At 5:30…”, do you see the reference to: “Superintendent Alakas informed call participants that PLT would be providing a letter to the Ottawa protestors that was similar to the letter from the provincial government to the Windsor protestors…” Right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So now Superintendent -- Acting Superintendent Beaudin has testified at this hearing a week or so earlier.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And he told us -- perhaps the best way to summarize his evidence is if I take you to his summary.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can we go to WTS00000037, please? So this is the interview summary of Insp. Beaudin.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we go to page 4? Go down. So you’ll see that on February the 11th, the same day you were dealing with this break through in Windsor: “On February 11[th], 2022, Inspector Beaudin met virtually with Mr. Stewart and Mr. Hutchinson again. The plan at that point was to offer a meeting in exchange for demonstration leaders demanding that the trucks exit downtown Ottawa and denounce any criminal activity. Inspector Beaudin then briefed Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, who was in agreement with the plan. Later that day, Inspector Beaudin also exchanged emails with OPP Superintendent Alakas about the actions being taken in Windsor and what kind of reaction that might create among the demonstrators in Ottawa.” So things were happening in Ottawa and you were dealing with rapidly developing situations in Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So going back to your summary, this call at 5:30, when you were informed by Alakas, Supt. Alakas about this development in Ottawa. Remember the middle of the paragraph?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So what -- the evidence given by Insp. Beaudin, does that accord with your understanding on the 11th at around 5:30?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then if we go down the page, a serious of meetings continuing to about if we go to the next page, continuing to about 7:06 p.m., a series of meetings between you and your command team, as well as between you and your strategic leadership ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- at the OPP took place. Can you take us through those series of meetings?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. After the call at approximately 5:30 that included Supt. Alakas, I made the decision that perhaps we need to delay what was happening in Windsor, because of the influence it could have in Ottawa. I then had conversations with the strategic commanders, Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Commissioner Carrique, and learned -- well, they reminded me that I did not need to act in my strategic commander role, that I needed to focus on Windsor. And it was during that conversation that they said, “Are you ready to go? Is your plan ready? Do you have the resources? Will, you know, the plan itself emphasized public and officer safety?” I said yes to that, and then I changed my mind and decided to continue with my plan, realizing that I didn’t know the intimate knowledge of what was going on in Ottawa, because my focus had to be Windsor.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So going back to your initial concern when you were reconsidering implementing the plan the next day, what implications did you think the action in Windsor may have in Ottawa? What were those concerns?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That it might agitate things there. And at the same time, I had to -- again, my focus had to be on Windsor. So if we didn’t go forward with the plan and prolonged allowing the protestors to continue, what would that mean for Windsor? And that was my priority.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then after you spoke to your command team, you had discussions with the strategic leadership, and that included Commissioner Carrique; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And Deputy Commissioner Harkins?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in that discussion, that discussion between the strategic leadership and your role as an operational commander, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- help us understand what was the strategic input and how that effected your decision, ultimately, as the operation commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm. It was a reminder that I did not have all -- good situational awareness of what was happening in Ottawa. They did. And that my focus needed to be on Windsor. And I could them, without a doubt, that the plan was ready, the officers were ready, we had enough resources, we had tried the stepped approach and we were not getting anywhere. Of course, I was hopeful about the letter because at this time it had not been delivered yet, but any CIC will tell you that you have your planning and your resources ready, one of the best options would be not to deploy it because protesters left on their own. So I was still hopeful because the letter hadn't been delivered yet.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So by 7:06 p.m., what was your final decision?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That we would be -- if needed, if the letter was not successful, that we would be launching the next morning our Operational Plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, this is the paragraph that you made the correction when we began ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- today's examination, and the correction you made was to the effect that it was your decision ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- as opposed to a decision made by the strategic leadership.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why is that important to you?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Because all of those decisions moving forward in regards to Windsor and the plan, they were all my decisions.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So after this decision was made, at 8:00 p.m., if we go down the page, at 8:00 p.m., the letter that was previously approved was now signed by ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- Minister Jones and it was distributed to the protesters. What effect, if any, did it have that distribution of the letter?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Very little. Very little. It was disappointing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Very little.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And tell us about the -- what was going on by then with the protesters?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, because of the time of day, we had seen this throughout the week, that was kind of the heavier times for numbers of people. Some sort -- somewhat I would describe as a party atmosphere was happening, from usually eight o'clock on during the evenings, and this was no different. So the party atmosphere had certainly began, and again, it was just very disappointing that the letter had little effect ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It wasn't ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- although I appreciated all the efforts getting the letter.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That wasn't what you were hoping for.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So now was it time to escalate up the ladder?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So that takes us to the end of the day on the 11th. My colleague --- Mr. Commissioner, my colleague, Ms. Hedaraly, will continue examination with the events the following day.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Is this a good time for the morning break and we can come back at -- in 15 minutes?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It would be.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the morning break, come back in 15 minutes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you. Thank you, sir.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 10:50 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:09 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.
SUPT. DANA EARLEY, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. SAJEDA HEDARALY
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Superintendent Earley.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Morning.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
My name is Sajeda Hedaraly. I'm Commission Counsel, and I will be asking you some questions this morning.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay, thank you.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to continue where my colleague left off on February 11th. A lot of things happened that day. On that day, the Ontario Supreme Court of Justice also granted an injunction prohibiting a blockade on the Ambassador Bridge. Can you explain briefly how you used this injunction and if you found it helpful in terms of the blockade?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The injunction was another tool that could be considered by myself and my team. We also made sure that the injunction was included in the media strategy so that everyone was aware that it existed. And -- so that's how it was used. I saw it as a tool.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I'd like to pull up your notes, please, at OPP00004551. If we go down to page 9, there is a note at 4:58 p.m. that says: "[P]rotesters are getting ready to leave now that injunction stands - intel from crowd." What was the source of this Intelligence?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That was coming from some of the officers from the frontline, as well as perhaps the -- and I can't recall exactly, but it was being discussed amongst the crowd.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And so it says that protesters are getting to leave. Did some leave because of the injunction?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Very little, if any at all. I can't recall.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
On February 11th there was also a province-wide emergency declared by Premier Ford under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act. How did that impact the blockade?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Again, we used it as part of our media strategy. We made sure that people were aware that -- what it meant to them if you were protesting. We actually did up information pamphlets for the crowd that explained some of the consequences of the Act and had Provincial Liaison Teams distribute those. But again, some did leave as a result. Others did not.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Did you find that one of these two tools, the emergency measures or the injunction, was more or less useful than the other, did they work in conjunction? Can you just explain a little more?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I would say they worked in conjunction and, as I’ve mentioned several times, the situation being so dynamic that a lot of options are useful, and so I saw both of them as tools, as options for us.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Great. So we talked a little bit earlier about resources that were necessary for the plan to be implemented on the 12th.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things that the plan required is towing capacity.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Correct? So where did you obtain tow trucks?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So towing was included in our traffic plan and knowing that we may have to have an operation - - an action of operation and remove vehicles, that obviously had to be considered. Windsor Police Service has a contract with a local towing company who made their tow trucks available, and also, because we weren’t sure the exact numbers of what would need to be towed, we had the option of tow trucks come in from Detroit.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So first for the local company that Windsor Police Service had a contract with, was there any issues with their willingness to assist in the context of the protests?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, there was not.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And as for the tow trucks that came from Detroit, I’d like to pull up WPS000001090, please. This is an email from Chief Minuzo (sic) to Deputy Chief Bellaire that forwards an email from the Michigan government. In there, we see that the -- that Michigan doesn’t have state resources to offer but are willing to put the Windsor Police Service in touch with private contractors. And as you can see, Chief Minuzo (sic) says they have no machinery or tow trucks to offer. “Please let the team know there is no assistance in tow trucks or machinery from the U.S.”. Were you made aware of the fact that the States didn’t have tow trucks to offer?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Not that specific detail, but I do know that the Inspector in charge of the traffic and towing plan had made connections with perhaps the contractors that they mentioned to arrange for tow trucks to be on standby.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And when did you obtain the tow trucks from Michigan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They came -- I believe they came the morning of the 12th.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that they weren’t used in the end?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
When did they leave?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That day.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that the blockade was only cleared on the following day?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Why were the trucks sent back to the U.S. if the blockade wasn’t cleared yet?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The area that we were able to clear on the 12th was significant, was more than we anticipated, and so the area that we needed to continue to clear on the 13th did not have a large amount of vehicles, so we were confident that the tow company from Windsor would be able to support what we needed.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
As for the resources that were required, I understand that you also arranged for road barriers to hold areas that were cleared?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
What did you get to use as road barriers, what kind of resources?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Windsor Police were able to use their -- obviously the connections with the city to use large trucks and as well they had a certain amount of cement barriers that were available to them and then we worked through our partnership with MTO to work with one of their contractors to bring in more cement barriers.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Were there any issues in securing any of these resources?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So we also talked earlier about the officers that you needed to carry out the plans. I understand there were frontline officers, POUs, et cetera. I understand that you also had RCMP POU officers?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know how many RCMP officers were deployed in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I’d have to refer to my notes, but I believe it was a POU team consisting of approximately 40 and then an additional -- they send their Emergency Response Teams with their POU, so I think there was an additional 10 there. And then we also had assistance from the RCMP officers that assisted on the front line as well.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know where the RCMP officers came from?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No. I did meet some of them and they were from all over, really.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to pull up DOJ.IR.60, rows 11, please, at page 55. At point 250, if we scroll down a little bit, there’s a note that on February 10th, the Windsor Police Service contacted the Minister of Public Safety to request RCMP assistance with respect to the Ambassador Bridge.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down a bit for the translators, please.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
That same day, the RCMP deployed a TSG that was deployed in Ottawa to Windsor. I understand that a TSG is a Tactical Support Group? To your knowledge, is that the unit that came to Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I’m not sure. I couldn’t comment on that.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
We can pull that down, Mr. Clerk. Thank you. I understand that OPP also deployed PLT ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- members to Windsor? One of the recommendations that you made in your witness summary is that there should be a PLT unit in the Windsor Police Service and PLT training should be provided to Windsor Police officers. Could you please expand on why you made that recommendation?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The efforts and the achievements of our Provincial Liaison Team not only in Windsor, but any incident that they attend, is remarkable, the community as well as our organization. We have a responsibility to try to develop that rapport in incidents where we don’t see eye to eye just so that everybody can be heard. And the Provincial Liaison Team allows that to happen within our different groups within our societies and our communities, and so that’s why I would urge that any police service have some sort of team that allows for that rapport and that communication piece.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Would you make a similar recommendation regarding POU training that all municipal forces, perhaps, should have that sort of training?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I think depending on where the municipal service is and any key infrastructures that may be targeted, that has to be a consideration. And if, in fact, they can’t have a team, perhaps they need to have some sort of Memorandum of Understanding with another service that could facilitate a POU unit for them if needed.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So you mentioned earlier today to my colleague that by the end of February 11 you had all the resources that you needed ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- for your plan, and that you implemented it on the morning of February 12th. I understand that one of the reasons that it started early in the morning is that there would be fewer protestors and that no children were likely to be present according to intelligence.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have a contingency plan in place in case there were, indeed, children present?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, we did. So we had a vehicle set aside that would transport children from the scene. We also worked with the local Children’s Aid Society for assistance and, as well, Windsor had kind of spearheaded this but they had their victim response unit in attendance to support any children that may be present.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And so while we’re on the contingency plan, can you explain the importance of having those kinds of plans in place and how you decide what to prepare for as contingencies?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So as I’ve discussed before, you need to have as many options as possible, especially in an incident like this, and so once you learn of -- or once you have developed that situational awareness and some of the challenges that you may be faced with, but during the incident, you need to make sure that options are covered for each one. So for example, you mention traffic. Well that includes towing as well. And so did the POU plan. Knowing that children were present at different times during the day during this protest, that was an obvious thing for me to make sure that it was addressed.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So on the morning of February 12th, you start implementing the plan.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Please explain how the plan was carried out?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We had a very early morning briefing, which included every team member that was going to be involved. So that would be all of our POU contingent, as well as the front-line officers, as well as the admin support. The plan was explained to everyone. I addressed everyone and thanked them for their support and efforts. It was shortly after that that we then staged at the areas that were set out in the plan. Before the plan was to move forward, PLT was to, again, address the crowd and let them know that with POU standing behind them, let them know that POU would be attempting to clear the area and giving them another opportunity to leave the area on their own. Another important part of the plan is that we always left an area open so that if somebody wanted to leave the operational area while POU was present, they could do so on their own.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to pull up COMM00000926, please, Mr. Clerk. This is a map of Windsor and will maybe help explain the planning by phases that you briefly alluded to earlier.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Or explain more visually how it happened.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So you explained earlier today that the plan was to clear the protestors in phases ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- because the area was perhaps too large to do it all at once.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain a little further what the phases were and how they were carried out?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm. It’s a bit difficult to see the side roads. Okay. So right in behind the McDonald’s is obviously where the bridge is. So we wanted to go from the bridge to the intersection, to the train tracks. So there’s train tracks right in front of the entrance to the bridge. That was a certain area. We then wanted to move from the tracks itself to the intersection at the McDonald’s there since that’s a clear point. That would be another section. And then ultimately make our way down to Tecumseh Road. So it was basically put into three different sections. Those were determined by the POU plan and the POU team leaders in regards to what would be most effective. And obviously I respected and trusted their subject matter expertise.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that after each area was cleared, you would use the resources that we discussed earlier to block passage?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct. So we would use a mixture of the larger trucks, the cement barriers, and officers as well.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Then once the whole area was cleared after the three phases were completed, that brought us to February 13th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And that’s when the traffic plan came into place? Is that right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain a little bit more what the traffic plan in itself entailed?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. So the traffic plan was to -- as I said to my team that day, it’s one thing to open the bridge, it’s another thing to keep it open. So the traffic plan, the traffic and towing plan addressed maintaining the safe flow of traffic to and from the United States. So the traffic plan incorporated the cement barriers that we discussed, and blocking all the intersections, And I won’t say all, but most of the intersections down Huron Church, to ensure that we did not have protestors coming from the side streets onto the road again and taking it back. The infrastructure of Windsor is a huge challenge when it comes to the entrance of the bridge, and that’s why the need for all the resources that were required in regards to the cement barriers. This traffic plan also had marked areas that intersections were attended by officers, rather than cement barriers, for safety reasons for EMS and fire, to make sure that they could get through, and then also too, we incorporated two different areas for pedestrian traffic as well.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Were local residents able to cross Huron Church at any point with their personal vehicles?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes -- no, they weren’t at certain times, but towards the end, towards E.C. Row and that area, they were able to cross into the other side of the city. Again, another big part of the traffic plan was the media strategy. So we made sure that we communicated this to the community at every step of the way. What it looked like, what the alternate routes were to the different businesses, to the different areas of the city. We made sure that all of those were set up as well. And Windsor Police had, obviously, a big hand in that, working with the Roads Department.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
This is, I think, what Deputy Chief Crowley yesterday referred to as an area of control?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And I think you referred to it in your interview as an exclusion zone?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Under which authority did you create the exclusion zone?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We relied on the Criminal Code for keeping people out of the area. We had specific tasks for the officers that were assigned to the traffic plan to investigate anybody who maybe appeared suspicious, or who may stop in the exclusion zone. So it was clearly communicated to the community through MTO signs, through social media that if you were going to be on Huron Church, you’re going to the bridge.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that there were RCMP frontline resources that ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- arrived, as you mentioned little earlier.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that there was a delay in swearing them in? Is that right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, if it ever happened at all. I don’t think it did happen.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And why was it necessary to swear in these officers, or would it have been useful?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They would be able to address anything under the Criminal Code, but anything under provincial or municipal legislation, they would not be able to address. And since they were being deployed to assist the frontline, we needed them to make -- we needed them to have those options. So what we did instead, because of the delay, is that we made sure that they were partnered with another police service, so OPP or Windsor, that did have those abilities.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And it’s one of the recommendations that you also made in your interview, that the process for granting RCMP officers provincial and municipal authorities be streamlined.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
What was the difficulty in getting them sworn in?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don’t think there was really clear direction as to who had to do it, when did it have to be done, could it be done remotely, did it have to be done with them in person? So there was a lot of phone calls back and forth with myself, along with Windsor Police Service, at a time where really we should have just been left alone to focus on the incident itself. So that’s what I mean by more streamlined before RCMP officers arrived to assist.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
And did it cause any delay that you had to change your plan to pair RCMP officers with OPP or Windsor Police Service officers?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, we just looked for a different option, because obviously we needed them on the frontline. So that’s what we did instead.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So if we go to the next day, on February 14th, the Emergencies Act was invoked by the Federal Government.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
In your view, did it have any impact on the situation in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, things were much different then because the traffic was flowing and it’s hard to say if it had any difference. But I do know that, again, it was communicated through our media strategy that people were aware of the additional Act being legislated and what it meant to them, and the definition of certain things, obviously a bridge that fell under the Act.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Yesterday Deputy Chief Crowley mentioned that it may have been dissuasive to the protestors ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
To return.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- to come back. Would you agree?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I agree. M’hm. Again, it was another tool that we were able to use.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Was there a clear plan that you were aware of that the protestors wanted to re-blockade the Ambassador Bridge after it was cleared on the 12th and the 13th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, we continued to observe and receive intelligence that indicated, I think it was on the date of -- I know it’s in my notes, on the date of the 15th or 16th, there was a Facebook posting that was called Take Back the Bridge, and it was associated to all the things that had -- were then transpiring in Ottawa, and basically the posts were saying, you know, "everybody's -- all the police are gone to Ottawa, so let's take back the bridge." That's something that we watched very closely. Also, Windsor Police had had a group of protesters on a regular basis, and I think Deputy Chief Crowley spoke to that, that would meeting during the convoys on a regular basis. So we maintained kind of Intelligence on, you know, what will that group bring. But certainly there was the fear that they would think that numbers were being deployed to Ottawa and then try to take advantage of that and take back the bridge.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I think your notes, and I can put them up if that would be helpful, also mention that once the injunction is expired they are looking to blockade again.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Was that also a consideration that the injunction was going to expire?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. There was Intelligence that indicated that, that that's what they were considering.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So did you think that the renewal of the injunction on February 18th was helpful in preventing that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, to those who, yeah, were going to try to take it back after it expired, yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So as of February 20th, I understand that you adopted a Demobilisation Plan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
What is a Demobilisation Plan?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was a plan to obviously demobilise our resources, not only for officers but just kind of give the incident entirely to Windsor Police Service as soon as they could kind of sustain it themselves. Also, keeping in mind and respecting the fact of that they had calls for service, they had a city to police as well, so we did it in a staged approach. It also included demobilising certain areas of the Traffic Plan. So on a daily basis, sometimes on a, you know, an hourly basis, we would monitor the traffic flow, along with the Intelligence, along with the reports from our Provincial Liaison Team, and what the frontline was seeing, to see if there was areas where we could perhaps remove some of the barriers. So we evaluated that constantly and opened intersections a point at a time. You can see in the Demobilisation Plan that we actually had some dates set out for each intersection to be considered. Some of those dates were met, other dates were actually opened intersections earlier than we anticipated.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Maybe for the record we could put it up. It's WPS000000719. I believe at page 4. Perhaps scroll down a little bit. Is this what you were referring to?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
So I see that the latest potential reopening date is March 13th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Why would it take about three weeks to clear all the intersections?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We -- that was sort of kind of a review of -- based on the information we had when the plan was created. Those two -- the last two intersections were the heavier intersections in regards to protests, and those are the two that are obviously closest to the bridge entrance, so that's why they were kind of put until the end to see how the community as well as the intel and all of that what we were receiving to see how the other intersections were being cleared. Was it being received well? Did we have any other threat of a protest? So that's why it was kind of spanned along that amount of time.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when they were ultimately reopened, the last intersection?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't. Sorry.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I understand you stopped being Critical Incident Commander in Windsor on February 23rd?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
How was the transition of command from yourself to the Windsor Police Service?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Again, it was seamless. And we worked every day, every night side by side, so really, it was seamless when we left. We just wanted to make sure that Windsor had the proper amount of resources to be able to deal with anything if it should occur. And of course some of our officers remained there until the end of the month, end of February.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I'd like to take you back to another of your recommendations before we end. You mentioned that the Critical Incident Commander should visit frontline officers and ask them what they need.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that that's something that you did ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did, yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
--- in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Is this uncommon?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I think that every Critical Incident Commander attempts to go on ground, it's just because of, again, the dynamic situation, it's not always to do. So once I had an opportunity I did make a point of visiting the different checkpoints to check on the wellness of our members, and when I say "our members" I mean any police officer that was out there. I also asked them for their input, if there was anything else that we needed to get done or that we could do better. It was from one of those visits that the interactive posts in regards to the Traffic Plan and updating on a regular basis it came from a frontline officer, saying, you know, "I'm dealing with a local resident who wasn't sure where the crosswalks were. So could we post it and keep it up-to-date?" So I took that right back to the Command Post and made sure that that was done right away so that a member of the public at any time just could click on a link and know where the cross the road. So it's those things as well. And most importantly, it's a way to thank them for their efforts, considering that a lot of them had been away from home for quite sometime, and know that their efforts were having an impact.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
This is the last document that I'll take you to today. If we could please put up OPP00004552, page 26. Those are the scribe notes from February 13th. At 12:17... So if we can scroll down a little bit. ...Commissioner Carrique thanked you for having performed to perfection on world stage. What for you made the Windsor Operation such a success?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The team. Absolutely the team. It was a remarkable collaboration and cooperation. It didn't matter what uniform you were wearing, what rank you were, what role you had, it was a tremendous effort by a remarkable team.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Is there anything else that you would like to say to the Commission that we haven't asked you this morning?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't think so at this point. Thank you.
Sajeda Hedaraly, Counsel (POEC)
Those are all my questions for you, Superintendent. Thank you very much for your time.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. So I'd like to first call on the Government of Canada. Do you have any questions?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA GONSALVES
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Superintendent.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Good morning.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrea Gonsalves, and I am one of the lawyers representing the Government of Canada in this Inquiry. I just want to begin by going back to the information you received, I guess it was late, you had many late nights, so late night on February 9th as to the state of play in Windsor when you were assigned the role of Critical Incident Commander. And in response to questions from Commission Counsel, you'll recall that he pulled up the bullet point email that you sent to the two deputies.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And one of the concerns that was raised with you early on, I gather, was the dynamics of the crowd that was engaged in the protest activity; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Under your direction, PLT teams became engaged early on trying to identify leaders; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But as you understood from the PLT teams, the protesters were disjointed, disorganised I think were your words; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes; correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in this kind of a situation, police don't know whether the group will even listen to someone who puts themselves forward as a leader; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct, and especially in this instance because we -- nobody was really being identified as a leader.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And there was -- I understand you spoke about the three groups, there was some infighting among them?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the demands of the group, to the extent they were even known, were problematic.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right? I think I saw in your notes of February 10th at OPP00004543 that the protesters had no desire to leave and wanted to remain until all restrictions were lifted. That was your understanding?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Your bullet point note to the Deputy Chiefs also talked about the crowd being agitated, and that was true at various times through the protest; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In your notes again February 10th, I saw that you described a wilder crowd arriving at night?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's when the drinking and the pot smoking would begin?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And Inspector Younan described the crowd dynamics as being violent; do you remember that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We heard evidence from Deputy Chief Crowley yesterday, but I just want to confirm, you were also aware from the briefings you received that there had been threats to surround and storm police station?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, as well as the tunnel.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The tunnel? Right. Officers were swarmed when they tried to arrest the individual whose car jumped the curb?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There had been threats when attempts were made to tow two vehicles prior to your arrival?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You heard about a possible protest at the Windsor Airport?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That I did not.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You heard about a smoke bomb that was set off by demonstrators at one point?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And a bit later on in the piece, but there was a bomb threat called in about a bomb that was behind the police lines; is that correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That is correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There had also been threats made to the mayor, his address was posted online. You knew about that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I was aware.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this was all, you would accurately say -- or you'd say this was accurately described as a volatile situation?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There -- then you throw into the mix the presence of children; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One of your biggest concerns throughout the piece?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I take it that the concern about the presence of children was based on what officers were seeing actually happening on the ground at the protest site; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Not just information being collected online?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, we were witnessing it.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were witnessing it. Yesterday, in questions to Deputy Chief Crowley, one of the counsel for one of the parties pulled up a situation report that was dated 0400 hours that indicated no children were observed on scene. That was 0400 hours on February 12th. Can you explain how that reconciles, if it does, with the information you received of children on site?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was always very apparent the children on site were at certain times in the day and that they were not staying overnight. So the information at 0400, the children were not present did not surprise me because information before revealed that the children were going home at night and not returning until sometimes 9, 10 a.m.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You also spoke -- you testified in response to questions from Commission Counsel about the increased risk of counter protests.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, right.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the president of the autoworkers' association, who, understandably, they were quite upset by the ongoing blockade of the bridge. Do you recall the words that he used when he indicated that they wanted to come and counter protest?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe, and I think it was recorded in my notes ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
M'hm.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- something indicating that they were going to knock heads or use a vehicle to push people into the river.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. That was on February 11th. OPP00004550, page 21. He said that they intend, "...to come on Monday with 1,000 people to crack heads or bring heavy equipment [and] push them in the river" That's pretty concerning as the Critical Incident Commander; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And as time wore on, local residents are becoming more vocal in their opposition to the protest. I understand you were briefed at one point on counter protesters intending to damage protest vehicles.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Recall that? You spoke about the injunction that was ordered by Chief Justice Morawetz of the Ontario Superior Court on February 11th, and I understand your view is that although this was one of the tools available, it was not particularly useful.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did not see a significant change in the incident.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Similarly, the February 11th provincial declaration of a state of emergency, I understand from your notes that a few protesters may have left, but it also caused others to dig their heels in; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then the third piece that happens on February 11th is the letter from the Solicitor General to Commissioner Carrique that was distributed to protesters. And I just want to confirm, you testified in response to Commission Counsel's questions that you had been made aware of a similar letter that would be handed out to protesters in Ottawa; you recall that evidence?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Did you understand who that letter would be coming from?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The one in Ottawa?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I do not. I do not know.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that's because your focus, of course ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Was Windsor.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- was Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that letter from the Solicitor General does ultimately get handed out to protesters at the blockade site in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it had no effect either. They refused to leave; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Disappointingly, but that really proved to be the end point to possible engagement. It had been tried and it had failed; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M'hm.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, we just need ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, sorry.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And there was a lot going on across the province at the time that you were dealing with the situation in Windsor, a lot of protest activity; fair?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We know that the Windsor Police response involved units not only from OPP and Windsor Police, but you also spoke about London, Hamilton, Waterloo, I think?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Perhaps some other municipal police services or does that cover it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe that covers it.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were told that Windsor was your priority; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you were certainly well aware that there were ongoing and expected demonstrations and blockades across the province?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Right. Yes, I was aware.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I saw through your notes this reference to a ripple effect. Am I understanding, Superintendent, that you saw the convoys and the blockades in the various locations as being connected in the sense that they couldn't be managed or approached in isolation from a policing perspective?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Certainly, all of them had to be considered. I think I'll go back to the example of the Facebook page that I mentioned and Take Back the Bridge. It was obvious that people were monitoring what police activity was, and then making plans according to that.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were aware, or certainly alive to the concern that what happened at one site could well have impacts at others?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. Now after the 11th, everything, fair to say, had been tried and the time had come for the operational plan to be implemented; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it ultimately succeeds in fully clearing that blockade on Sunday the 13th; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The vehicles were towed. One thing I didn't hear come out in your evidence in-Chief, but I saw in your notes, OPP00004544 at page 14 that bomb threats had been made to the tow operator. That was AMPM Towing; is that right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, Windsor Police Service was dealing with that because it was their jurisdiction, but I was aware that the towing company had received threats, both internally, so on their phone, and also too that a number of people had called continuously to this -- the business, and so basically, their phone service wasn't available because people kept tying up the lines. And in regards to tow trucks, when the others were staged from the States, we also received information that people were going to -- protesters were going to go and block the area where we had them staged, so that we potentially were not able to use them, so I had to assign additional officers to that area.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And fair for me to say that even after the operation had successfully cleared the blockade, you were deeply concerned about maintaining that road clear; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was your single biggest concern, in fact, was maintaining the hold, somewhat precarious hold on Huron Church Road; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I saw in your notes -- perhaps we could turn them up, OPP00004556 at page -- it's stamped page 16, but I think in the electronic document it would be page 17. Yeah, right there is good. And I see fourth line down, "Now we have to maintain it - May have groundhog day -- could be groundhog day - have to be on high alert." What did you mean by it could be Groundhog Day?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They could attempt -- again, they had obviously proven to the world at this time that they were able to block it, so that they knew it was achievable.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this ongoing risk that the protesters would return and resume the blockade, I take it that your concern was informed not only by what you saw in Windsor, but your experience with these ongoing slow roll protests even going back to January?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And as the POU operation loomed in Ottawa, you made clear that you couldn't spare resources from Windsor to assist with that; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I made it clear that I needed a contingent of POU officers still available.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in fact, after the blockade was cleared on the 13th and the bridge reopened on the 14th, I understand there were threats to block the tunnel. Those threats came in very shortly after the bridge was cleared?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You mentioned the 15th there was a convoy of vehicles believed to have been travelling to Windsor that was intercepted?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
On the 16th, if we could pull up OPP00000209? And scroll down, please. Just pausing there. Your -- this is an email dated February 16th and we see your name there, Superintendent?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Keep scrolling down. And this is an email communicating to you and others the most recent updated PLT messaging that incorporates both the federal and provincial emergency orders. You recall receiving that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I received a lot of emails, but yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you're aware, in any event, of the needing to get out PLT messaging of the two emergency -- the levels of emergency orders; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Including what we see in the first paragraph in black, "Persons travelling to any other unlawful protest sites to participate in or support the unlawful demonstration can be charged." And that is the PLT messaging being put out to deter protesters from going to sites where blockades might be resumed or renewed; yes?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, and providing them the education of what could happen.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right, what the consequences are.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Exactly. So you also mentioned the Facebook chat about protesters heading back to Ambassador Bridge as the enforcement action was taking place in Ottawa.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let's just pull up OPP00004558. I've come to learn this is what we call fast facts.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is pages 92 and 93. Let's just start at 92. Scroll down, please. A little bit more. There we go. The bullet point towards the bottom of the page, private chat on Facebook by group by the name of Windsor Convoy for Freedom. "...all police are in Ottawa so let's take the bridge back."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was a concern, and there's another one on the next page. I don't have to take you there. And, of course, Superintendent, you testified before about the concern of the -- presented by counter protesters, the volatility if we have these two sides colliding; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that concern also would have arisen if yet another blockade popped up in Windsor after it had been cleared; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Absolutely.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it's because of these concerns that you planned for the gradual rather than the sort of immediate demobilization in Windsor; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In fact, OPP POUs were not removed from Windsor until February 24th as I understand it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that's -- you understand that's after the federal government had revoked the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we saw in your response to questions from Commission Counsel the last intersection was planned to reopen on March 13th on your advice?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I understand from Deputy Chief Crowley that WPS maintained a perimeter as late as March 28th? You understand that, or you said you weren't sure?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, I wasn't there, but I did hear it in his testimony.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And given all of the concerns and the economic impact of that bridge being closed down, not only in Windsor but in the entire region, you understood that it would be appropriately prudent and cautious to keep these measures in place long after it had been cleared; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Again, it was another tool that we could refer to if we had issues.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Because when that blockade was cleared on the 13th or the 14th, you just had no idea whether it would fall into the hands of protesters again; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Exactly.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALAN HONNER
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Superintendent.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Good morning.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer with the Democracy Fund and we share standing with the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom. Superintendent Earley, since this inquiry started, we've heard evidence about the importance of police independence and about how politicians should not interfere with that independence. You will agree with me that police autonomy is very important?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we pull up SSM.CAN.NSC.00002845? And, Superintendent, you will not have seen this document before, but it's a read out of a conversation between the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario on February 10th. And I just want to take you to parts of that document and then ask you a question about it. So can we scroll down just a little bit? A little bit more. So if we look at this document now, the Premier and the Prime Minister are saying hello. And in the first big paragraph, Premier Ford says, "The bigger one for us and the country is the ambassador bridge and the state ground there. What I think is we gotta stop the spread of these protests..." And he goes on to say that the Attorney General is looking at legal ways to give he police more tools. Do you see that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And in the next paragraph, if we can just scroll down a little bit, the Prime Minister says, "First of all, they're not a legal protest. They're occupying a municipal street and are not legally parked. You shouldn't need more tools -- legal tools -- they are barricading the [Ontario] economy..." And then later in that paragraph he says, "We[...] got to respond quickly..." And if I can take you to the next page, about halfway through, just from what you're seeing on the screen, the third paragraph from the bottom, the Prime Minister asks, "has Windsor asked [...] anything of the OPP? Have they made a formal request..." And if you look at the Premier’s response, he says: “they’ve put that request in through the solicitor general. I spoke to the Mayor and that was the plan.” You see that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we go to the top of the third page? And so we see the Prime Minister is asking “what are the next steps?” And Premier Ford says: “they’ll act, but without directing them, it’s hard to describe their game plan. They’ll have a plan unlike Ottawa [where] they didn’t have a plan. I’ll get briefed tomorrow from the solicitor general and we’ll keep you updated. This is critical, I hear you. I’ll be up their ass with a wire brush.” Now, Superintendent, the question I wanted to put to you is, and I just want to clear, you did not experience any political interference from anyone when you were carrying out your duties as the Critical Incident Commander?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I did not.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if anyone else in the OPS -- sorry, the OPP, the WPS, or any other police force who experienced inappropriate political pressure?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Not that I’m aware of.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. I’d like to just switch gears for a moment here. You told us earlier today about a conversation, telephone conversation you had with, I believe it was Deputy Commissioners Harkins and DiMarco, and that was on February the 10th. And you told us today that they told you that Windsor was your priority and that it was a priority?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When I read your witness statement, I saw you said that, you described it as a priority, but you also described it in a different way. I won’t take you there, but what you say in that statement is that they told you that Windsor was the priority. Does that sound right to you?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I knew it was stressed on me that it was a priority.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And was it the priority, as opposed to a priority?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
All I can speak to is I knew it was my priority.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you would agree with me that it was a very important priority, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- regardless of whether it was the most important?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And given the economic impact of the Ambassador Bridge, it was possibly not just one of the most important priorities for Ontario, but also for the country?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Perhaps, but there was a lot of other issues that we had to consider.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But we saw from the conversation between Doug Ford and Prime Minister Trudeau that at least for Doug Ford, it appears that Windsor is the priority?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I can’t speak to that. I wasn’t involved in that conversation.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, but you’ve seen the document. That’s what it looks like when he says “for us”. I’ll just remind you of the language here. He says: “The bigger one for us and the country is the ambassador bridge…”
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I can’t speak to what he was thinking.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Fair enough. Superintendent Earley, you can tell me though, to the credit of you and your team, that you managed to get this blockade at the Ambassador Bridge cleared within two days of your appointment as CIC?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you would agree with me then that you and your team managed to resolve one of the most urgent priorities in the country without the benefit of the Emergencies Act?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Earlier today, you spoke about swearing in RCMP officers.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I think your evidence was that the POU officers did not need to be sworn in because they were enforcing the Criminal Code, but frontline officers would be enforcing municipal laws and provincial laws?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Possibly.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Possibly. And so you sort of creatively solved this problem by pairing them up with OPP officers?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And Windsor Police.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And Windsor Police.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I just don’t understand this. I’m just wondering if you can explain it a little bit better. What additional power would that confer on the RCMP or what benefit would that confer to pair them up like that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
In regards to having them sworn in?
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. I mean, would this allow the RCMP, for example, to enforce provincial laws?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It would. Thank you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And we heard today that you established an exclusion zone along Huron Church Road, and I believe we heard yesterday that exclusion zone was north of Tecumseh to the Ambassador Bridge. Does that sound right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that’s the distance of about one kilometre?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe it’s more than that. I think it’s about three.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And when you gave us evidence today, you said you relied upon the Criminal Code to establish that exclusion zone?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you agree that you could have also relied upon the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act to establish that exclusion zone?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. My friend from the Government of Canada asked you questions today about threats that were present in Windsor. You told us today that you’ve read the Hendon Reports, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- insofar as they concerned the municipalities under your care.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you would agree with me that in Windsor, there was no extremist rhetoric?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That I can’t speak to.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But if it was in the Hendon Reports, you would agree with it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I mean, it was Windsor’s responsibility to be reviewing the Hendon Reports in regards to activity in their area.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well it’s OPP00001688. I won’t bring it up. Let me just move on. Can we pull up OPP00003038? Can you tell us who Karen Johnson was or is?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Will the document be ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m just asking while we’re waiting for the document.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Oh, okay. No, I don’t ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I’m not familiar with that name.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well we have an email here, and when it comes up, I suspect it will show an email from Karen Johnson to a number of people, including you and Commissioner Carrique?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
M’hm.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we just scroll down a little bit, please? A little bit further. Scroll up. Okay. This is not the document I’m looking for. Let me ask you a question though.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would you agree with me that there were a total of 44 arrests in Windsor during this enforcement phase?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, I do believe that that was -- again, the arrests were the responsibility of Windsor Police Service.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And from what I recall, and you can just tell me if this is accurate or not, there were 88 charges, approximately, and almost all of those were -- about 44 were mischief and about 44 were breaching a court order?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I believe so.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And none of those are violent offences?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Pardon?
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Those two offences are not violent offences?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Right.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They can be. Everybody has - - there’s a potential of violence in any offence, really.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But if somebody was to commit a violent offence, they would typically be charged with something like assault or assault with a weapon, or ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- assault causing bodily harm?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It all depends on the reasonable and probable grounds ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Kidnapping, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- exist.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- forcible confinement, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Right.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- murder. None of that. And I’m just about to wrap up here. I just want to ask a question about maintaining the roads, because you told my friend that, you know, maintaining the roads was a priority. And you said here, I think to your officers, that clearing the bridge is one thing, but maintaining the road is another. And I understand you were able to maintain the road -- you’re speaking about Huron Church Road?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is that right? And you’re able to maintain it by installing jersey barriers along the side of the road from the bridge to the 401?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct. Not exactly right to the 401, but yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Approximately.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that’s a distance of three kilometres, I think?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay. That could be.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I’m sorry, I’m not sure about the distances. We used other ways as well. The cement barriers, along with officers deployed to the certain traffic stops too.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you had a traffic plan that you employed when you were doing that; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that traffic plan, I won’t bring it up, I think I’m out of time, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- or very close to it, it’s dated February 13th, 2022.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a couple of minutes here. You’re not near your time. I’ll look at you when you’re close to it.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well I’ll wrap up anyway and try and get some goodwill. Supt. Earley, I take it it’s obvious that if the traffic plan is dated February 13th, 2022, it was not contemplating the use of the powers conferred by the Emergencies Act?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER KING
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Good afternoon, Superintendent Earley.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Good afternoon.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
I have a few topics I'd like to canvass with you today.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
I am Jennifer King. I'm counsel to the City of Windsor.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
First, I'd like to speak to you about your role in Windsor before Deputy Commissioner Chris Harkins appointed you to serve as OPP's Critical Incident Commander in Windsor. This morning, you told my friend, Commission Counsel, that OPP PLT was deployed to Windsor on February the 8th following a conversation you had with now Deputy Chief Crowley early on February the 8th, I think it was 2:00 a.m.?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes; correct.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Yes. It is my understanding from the OPP's Institutional Report, and perhaps I'll stop there. Have you had an opportunity to review OPP's Institutional Report?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. So I understand from OPP's Institutional Report... And for the record, it is OPP IR00000007. I don't think we have to bring it up, Mr. Clerk. But at page 27 it says that four OPP PLT officers were deployed on February the 7th to assist the WPS. This is reflected in some of the documents, and I could show them to you if it could help you confirm for us and for the Commissioner the date that OPP PLT were deployed.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I know it was in between those two days. As you can see, I lost track of time sometimes or when the date changed because I was up until all hours ---
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Yes.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- but I know that PLT was deployed.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. Well, why don't we look at... Perhaps, Mr. Clerk, you could bring up OPP00004580, and scroll to page 67. Superintendent Earley, Commissioner Carrique produced texts with Deputy Solicitor General Di Tomasso that have been produced to the Commission. Commissioner Carrique was kept apprised of the operations in Windsor; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Yes. And so these are his texts with Deputy Solicitor General Di Tommaso. And if you go to page 67, at the bottom of the page, Mr. Clerk. The times on this, so we have to go back, I believe it's five hours, so around noon on February the 7th, Commissioner Carrique texted the Deputy Solicitor General "OPP PLT engaged." Do you see that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And would he have gotten that information from you? This was February 7th, before you were appointed; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
So I don't know if he received it from myself or from the Chief or perhaps Acting Superintendent Marcel Beaudin.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. There are other documents that refer to PLT being engaged by February the 7th. Does this assist you in confirming for the Commissioner the date that OPP PLT were engaged?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I know that the discussion was had that they would go and attend and assist.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And so it makes sense to you that it would have been February the 7th based on this?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay, thank you. You spoke with my friend, Mr. Au, about Mayor Dilkens' public announcement that you said you watched on February the 9th.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, I don't remember watching it, but I was certainly aware of it.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. So do you remember whether or not you heard about it or whether you saw it yourself?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I had heard about it?
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And it was on February the 9th?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. You were not yet appointed?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
No? So the Mayor and Chief Mizuno, former Chief Mizuno of the Windsor Police Service, held a press conference at noon on February the 9th. I don't have to bring it up, but there is documents about that press conference. Does it makes sense to you this was something you would have heard around ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
--- the middle of the day?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. So this was a joint media briefing delivered by Mayor Dilkens and Chief Mizuno. Do you recall that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I do recall.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. It was Mayor Dilkens' evidence yesterday that his public comments were reviewed by the Chief of Police or her staff so that there were no surprises when Windsor delivered a message. Did you hear him say that yesterday?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I did not hear him say that.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. Other than the direction that you gave that you discussed earlier that requests for resources should not be made publicly, you were no engaged in communications were you?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
With the Mayor?
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
No. Sorry, media communications.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
From -- that came from the City? Or, sorry, I'm not ---
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
That came from the City or WPS. I understand from your statement or your witness summary that WPS continued to have responsibility for media releases and messages; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And they worked alongside of our media officers, our OPP media officers, and everything was brought to the Command table for review.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And you had no concerns with media releases or messaging after you arrived in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
I have a couple of brief questions about the injunction and the continuation of the injunction. Earlier today, you described the injunction as a tool ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
--- or an option for police?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Can you confirm, you never raised any concerns with the City of Windsor about seeking the injunction?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did not raise concerns, no.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And you raised no concerns about the continuation of the injunction?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
You spoke with my friend, Commission Counsel, about the Traffic Plan, and this has been discussed in your cross-examination as well. I just wanted to confirm that the purpose of the Traffic Plan was to ensure the flow of traffic from Highway 401 to the Ambassador Bridge; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was to ensure that a protest did not occur again, yes. But yes, to keep the flow safe.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
To keep the flow safe and keep the flow of traffic over the Ambassador Bridge ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
--- clear. Yes? Okay. And the concrete barriers were installed on your direction?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And this was to better manage future risk of vehicles being used for blockades; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Exactly.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Excellent. Those are all my questions.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Questions by former Chief Sloly's counsel.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Superintendent Earley, Tom Curry for the former chief in Ottawa.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Hello.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
A couple of things, just if I could sort one thing out. The issue that my friend, Ms. King, was just asking you about concerning the media here in, or not here in Windsor, when you were in Windsor about resources. Do you recall that issue?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And my friend, Mr. Au, asked you about this. Do you recall that by the time you were in Windsor as the Critical Incident Commander that a statement had been made in a media interview by the Mayor that named the number of officers that the City had requested the City of Windsor, or Windsor Police Service I suppose, had requested, being 100?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I was not aware ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- that that was publicised.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So Commissioner, I have the -- there's a -- I raised this with the witness yesterday, the Mayor yesterday, and he recalled something about that. My friend, Ms. King, and I have discussed this. Rather than show the media pieces and so on, I think it's accepted that on the 8th of February, the Mayor, in an interview, was -- I think it was CTV News, named that number. So I just wanted -- and my friend, Ms. King, can just confirm that's so.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
So Jennifer King, counsel for Windsor. Yes, I -- we admit that that statement was made in an interview with CTV.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. Now, Superintendent Earley, the -- these issues that you dealt with in Windsor, this incident, was the largest, presumably, the largest critical incident you have managed in your career. Is that true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, it was one of.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, is it the largest, though?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yeah. Because it's -- you mobilised, if I understand from your Institutional Report or the Service's Institutional Report, there were in the end 410 members in your Police Service who were deployed in Windsor. True?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, over the times that I was there.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. And it would've peaked at a certain number and then dissipated as the demobilisation went on.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But in the max, 410; yes?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Largest number that you have been in command of?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And among the largest in the province's history in terms of deployment of OPP service officers; true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I would think so, I'm not sure.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And yet, it was probably -- well, did you know how many were deployed in Ottawa?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I did not know numbers.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Your relationship with the events in Ottawa, can I speak about that for a moment, you had no direct involvement in the Ottawa incident. Is that true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You had some points of contact, as you've discussed with Mr. Au, about the letter, for example, but otherwise, those two incidents were managed separately by Incident Commanders in both locations. True?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And ultimately, the Strategic Command is shared, it's common; true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Shared with?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Ottawa and Windsor ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- Critical Incident Commanders share a common Command structure, reporting eventually ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- to Deputy Commissioners and Commissioners; yes?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so it is for the Deputy Commissioner or the Commissioner, ultimately, to set the strategic objectives and priorities for the Service.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
In both Windsor and Ottawa.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so when my friend -- well, all of the lawyers have probably asked you about this, but when you came to this -- first of all, in your role as a Superintendent in the region, you learned that there were convoys in the area heading to, eventually, to Essex County and to Windsor; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There were convoys that I discussed earlier, sir; is that what you’re referring to?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Those convoys actually stayed local in their respective municipalities.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And so you were -- your Service was engaged in providing safe passage, and just managing whatever comes from a slow roll, as it’s been described, through your region, right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And on the 6th of February, we know that the Hendon report alerted police services to the possibility that now on the 7th there would a blockade of the Ambassador Bridge; recall?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don’t recall reading that ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- specific report.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Someone in your command, or below you ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- in the chain of command responsible for intelligence would have that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And was there -- did the -- did the OPP under your region take any steps to intercept those convoys on their way to the Ambassador Bridge?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, we did not have the information to indicate where they were coming from, ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- or what kind of vehicles or who would be involved.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. So whatever intelligence came to you in your region through the Hendon reports was not sufficiently clear to be able to take steps, for example, to intercept the convoy, for the reasons you’ve just given.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now, eventually, after the Ambassador Bridge was blocked and then cleared, I think one of my colleagues asked you about the interception of a convoy that was heading to try and engage in another blockade, and the OPP did stop that convoy; is that true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you would have done that because by then, of course you’d had the experience of the Ambassador Bridge blockade, you had the experience of the Ottawa blockade, or occupation as it’s been described. And now you had actionable intelligence to say, including, I suppose, the Emergencies Act, to stop convoy protesters from engaging in further blockades; true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now, a couple of things if I could, about your -- then your engagement as the Critical Incident Commander that you told us about today. The -- first things first; the issue about the importance of this -- of clearing this particular protest on the Ambassador Bridge; you’ve spoken about that. Just for your -- just to get your help on this; from your statement that you have read to us, or has been filed, there is a reference on page 2, and I have the name of this, or I have the number and I’m going to leave that for a second. I will offer a reward to anyone who can tell me the name of -- or the number of that statement. WTS -- yes? Twenty-two (22)? Thank you. Twenty-two (22). Thank you, Ms. Registrar. Page 2 when we get there, paragraph 3. You’ve seen this before. “Upon”; thank you. So this is a simple thing, but during a February 10th, 8:30 a.m. call, middle of the paragraph; do you see it? “Deputy Commissioner[s] Harkins -- Commissioners Harkins and DiMarco again advised Superintendent Earley that Windsor was the priority and that it was urgent to resolve the blockade.” That’s true, isn’t it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And it was obvious to the -- in terms of setting the strategic direction, that is the role for, not just Commissioner Carrique, but also the Deputy Commissioners to say what are the priorities, right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in respect of the priorities, the rank order of these priorities, when we speak -- when they spoke to you about it being “The priority,” it was understood that it was the priority for the Ontario Provincial Police Service; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I understood it to be my priority, so it was my priority that I needed to focus on.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes, of course it became your priority because you were the Critical Incident Commander, but when they say it is “The priority,” you understood it was the priority for the Service; true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I understood that it was a priority, and I would get whatever resources I needed.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes, that came -- that followed, and that’s important. But it was -- when they spoke to you at 8:30 in the morning on the 10th and said it was “The priority” it’s the priority for the Service.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I can’t speak to that. You’d had to ask them.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Well, we won’t get a chance to do that, but you understood that whatever else it was, it was going to be -- that task was being handed to you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And when they said at the top of that statement -- and we have your notes, of course, but I’m just in the interests of time: “Upon Superintendent Earley’s appointment..., Deputy Commissioner...Harkins and Deputy Commissioner...DiMarco communicated to her that Windsor was a priority and that she would receive whatever resources she needed.”
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You needed.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You understood that.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so prior to your ever picking up a pen and writing in your notes the Mission Statement, ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- you knew that whatever resources you needed, you had.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And, in fact, they had already begun to role out, prior to your drafting the Mission Statement.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, of course, the resources of which we’re speaking were a number of different things, but in the main, this -- you understood this was going to require POU resources, right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And they had -- they came from municipal services and as well from the hub that drew on OPP’s resources; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can I just show you, please, OPP4543? This is from your -- this should be from your notebook as described. And if we could go, please, to -- it should be the first page, initially. So this should be 2200 hours on February the 9th, right? “[Telephone] conference w Hamilton [Police Service] & [Windsor Police Service], Waterloo [Regional Police Service] to discuss POU support.” And it’s set out. And those are the calls that you placed in order to generate these resources, is that right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then at 7:15 a.m., if we could just scroll down; this should be page 7. So we’re now 7:15 on, I suppose the 10th. Yeah. “Jamie Sheridan called to advise [that] he & his waterloo POU team would be [heading] -- leaving [rather] for Windsor at [approximately] 1100 [hours].”
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
They were rolling.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then at 8:30 on page 8, please. Just at the bottom, there it is: “[Telephone] conference with Deputy Harkins” [just scroll down, please, a little bit] & Demarco. Deputies advised whatever is needed for plan will be available. Province focus is Windsor.” And that’s -- again, that goes to the point that I was making earlier; the provincial focus is Windsor for obvious reasons: The Ambassador Bridge is vitally important, right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Right, those were, yeah, from the teleconference.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
When you write down, or the scribe, rather, writes down, “province focus is Windsor” those are the words spoken by one or both of the Commissioners and Deputies.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, it’s in the context of the conversation.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. “Harkins speaking w RCMP today & will forward POU command. RCMP can send POU team of 150 people. Advised Deputies...” Amy Ferguson, perhaps?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Angela Ferguson.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Angela, thank you. Short form for Angela: “...will be POU Commander for OPP. [Waterloo Regional Police Service]...will arrive [approximately] 1300...this afternoon. Harkins advised there is an urgency to get this resolved” Did he need to explain to you why that was urgent, or did you understand the importance of the Ambassador Bridge?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I understood.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Of course by then it was in the popular press as well, that this blockade was causing enormous disruption.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. And I had also had conversations with D/Chief Crowley at this time and had more of a situational awareness.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. Now -- and then you wrote out your Mission Statement at 0900. Can I see that at page 9, please? Now, these Mission Statements -- just -- oh, there it is. Is that your handwriting or the scribe’s?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The scribe.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you dictated this on -- maybe in the car, I don’t know.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
“The OPP & our policing partners...” And it carries on; I won’t read it all. The Mission Statement in Windsor is very similar to the Mission Statement that was used in Ottawa. Have you ever seen that one?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I have not.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Are the mission statements -- I mean, they -- I don't want to diminish the importance of mission statements. I like mission statements too. They're very important, but these are very generic general statements that are used in a number of different OPP operations; is that fair?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The elements are very simple.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
The elements are similar, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
But each situation would dictate the final mission ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- the statement.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So say flow of traffic, for example, is the thing that makes this Windsor specific.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
This one looks awfully much like the OPP mission statement for Caledonia; doesn't it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I haven't seen that.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Did you go to ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It's been a while.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Were you involved in Caledonia?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I wasn't on the frontline, but as a Strategic Commander I was involved somewhat.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And do you recall the mission statement?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Do you agree with me that it would -- I don't want to pull it up, but do you agree with me that the mission statement for a protest like Caledonia would have similar elements?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They would have similar elements.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The only thing that's missing is free-flowing traffic where -- because Caledonia didn't -- it involved an occupation of a different kind; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And do you agree that that one was a very difficult demonstration to try to resolve and was not really ever resolved by a policing solution?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was a challenge, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Do you agree it wasn't resolved by a policing solution?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I'd have to look at my notes, or I don't ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- recall. I wasn't involved ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Sure.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- on the ground.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
What was your -- you were a Strategic Commander there?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
For some of it.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Put it this way, those protesters were never removed by a POU action; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Eventually, I think the province reached a financial settlement and it acquired the land over which the protest was being held?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And then a couple of other things if I can. Ottawa and Windsor, very different situations; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Ottawa larger, more complex, more challenging?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Larger, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
More complex?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Each incident had its complexities ===
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes, but, of course ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- and challenges.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- I'm asking if you can rank them. If you can't, just tell me, but aren't -- isn't it obvious that Ottawa's a more complex problem even than the one in Windsor?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I would say that it had different challenges than the incident in Windsor.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And much larger, yes, I will agree to that.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can we -- can I get from you that the different challenges of which you're speaking are many more challenges?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I wasn't in Ottawa, so it's hard for me to ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- speak to that, sir.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Fair enough. Now the Incident Command system and autonomy. Today you made a change to the statement that you -- that was filed. And, Commissioner, I'm going to borrow -- not borrow -- well, it is a loan, I suppose. I gather that my colleagues from Ottawa are not going to use their time or perhaps all of their time, so if I could just have a couple of their minutes? Thank you. I'll be quick as I can be.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Have they even offered?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
They have. We're prepared to cede our 10 minutes ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
--- Commissioner. Thank you.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. So, Superintendent, I'll be -- I'll just be brief with a few other things. Today you made a change to the statement; do you recall that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, I do.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And did my friend, Mr. Au raise that with you this morning before you came here?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, I raised it when I reviewed my statement.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. When did you review it, just today?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Within the last couple days.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Had you reviewed it before when it was sent to you -- or was it -- did they send it to you after they took it in September?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. Yes, they did, and I didn't ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you read it but didn't ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yeah, and I didn't catch ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- notice that?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- it that -- no.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. The reason I ask is because yesterday I asked Deputy Crowley about whether he knew about that aspect, and I wondered if that's what prompted this. Did you see that yesterday?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I watched his testimony.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Good. Is that what prompted you to catch this?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, absolutely not. I caught it prior to that.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And the line that you wanted to take out or did take out was she informed them, Commissioners -- or the team rather, that the change in direction came from Commissioner Carrique and Deputy Commissioner Harkins. And you would say instead of that line, more accurately, you made the change after your conversation with Commissioner Harkins -- Deputy Harkins, rather, and Commissioner Carrique?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now they have -- the two senior commands, Deputy Chief -- or Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Superintendent -- or and Commissioner Carrique have strategic -- overall strategic command; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so they set the strategic direction that the Critical Incident Commander implements?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So there's nothing wrong -- am I right, there's nothing wrong with Commissioner Carrique and Deputy Commissioner Harkins telling you that you should not delay your operation while a letter goes to the protesters in Ottawa, but to get on with the operation in Windsor. That would not be overstepping their authority; would it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I see it as overstepping. The operational control of the incident was mine. It had to -- that decision had to be made by me.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. But of course, you -- so what happened in the sequence, and this is important because my friends I predict are going to say that what you did in Windsor informs what should have happened in Ottawa. So this is important for reasons that you may not appreciate, but let me just ask you. The -- if I understand it, what happened in Windsor is that a protester, Mr. Neufeld ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- came to a PLT officer and said, "We'll all leave if you give us a letter from the government."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so you mobilized the government to write a letter and the Solicitor General writes a letter to say, "We'll meet with you if you denounce your unlawful actions and everybody goes home."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that letter gets to Mr. Neufeld?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And, of course, what does he do with it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It's shared with everybody, but it's -- it did not produce the reaction we were hoping for.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Do we know anything about Mr. Neufeld?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Did you at the time, or did you leave it to PLT?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I left it to PLT.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I'm sure the information ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- would be available in my notes but ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Fair enough. I couldn't find it, but I'll admit there are a lot of records. So and at the same time, you said, "Well, we can't give Mr. Neufeld a letter from the provincial government, from a Minister of the Crown without provoking, possibly, a reaction from the Ottawa protesters who aren't getting a letter from the Solicitor General."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I did not say it in that way, but I made sure that since a letter from the government was being issued to the protest in Windsor, that people were aware across the province that that was happening.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. And you said, "Stop the presses. Let's not take action until we give a letter to Ottawa -- to the Ottawa protesters."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
There was discussion in regards to that, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then the Commissioner -- or, well, first of all, the Deputy Commissioner rang you; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And expressed a view that that was not the strategy he wished to follow.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was suggested that I re- evaluate because I was not aware of the details of what was happening in Ottawa as he was and as the Commissioner was.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. In other words, they're -- they've got strategic command ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- and they -- and may I just please go back to that statement? 22, yeah. WTS22, please, page 13. I'll just be a second with this. Thank you. "During a 6:47 p.m. call..." And we have the scribe notes, but I'll do it this way. "...[on the] same date, Deputy Commissioner Harkins told Superintendent Earley not to pause enforcement out of concern about the potential impact on the Ottawa protestors." That's true?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That's true.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I shared with him that I had decided to pause it based on that, and then he shared with me insight in regards to what was going on in Ottawa, and that if that was the main reason, not to pause enforcement based on that.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. And so he called you at that time?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't recall if he called me or I was updating him.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, so if we just scroll up a little bit, I think he called you because -- stop. "Superintendent Earley advised her command table at 6:17 [...] on [the] 11[th] [...] she had decided to pause the enforcement action."
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Scroll down. "During a 6:47 [...] call [...], Deputy [...] Harkins told [you] not to pause enforcement..." So do you now recall that word got to him and he had a different view?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I don't recall if I called him or he called me, to be honest.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I'd have to ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, if you called him, it was to check in with him; was it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was to bring an update.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And when you did, it was that you were pausing.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It was, yeah. It was a ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Commissioner ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
--- discussion of my decision.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. Deputy Commissioner Harkins said don't pause.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
We discussed my reasons for wanting to pause and he said if it was solely based on Ottawa, that you should not -- that it should -- not to worry about it, to remain focussed on Windsor.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. And then ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And that's when I ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- and at the bottom, you pointed out the risk.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You advised, "...of the risk that police enforcement [...] could have impacts on Ottawa and lead to an increase in aggression and violence by protestors [in Ottawa]..." Correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, the aggression and the violence by protestors was in regards to the response to the operational plan that I had -- was going to move forward with in Windsor.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But what does that have to do with -- I'm not following that. Isn't it Ottawa that you were concerned with? Because look at the last sentence. You, "...advised Deputy Commissioner Harkins of the risk that police enforcement action could have impacts on Ottawa and lead to an increase in aggression and and violence by protestors”, mustn’t those protestors be the ones in Ottawa?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
It would be protestors wherever across the province, and so that’s why we were discussing it.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. But it includes Ottawa at least.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Deputy Commissioner Harkins confirms that he’s aware and then, a few minutes later, you have a call now with Commissioner Carrique and the Deputy.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
And Deputy, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And am I right that the Deputy got Commissioner Carrique on because he wanted to emphasize the message to you that he was giving, which is you should go ahead and clear the Ambassador Bridge?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They supported me moving forward with the plan.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, when you say -- you see, Superintendent, they -- what they supported was a different decision than the one you had taken to the command table. You wanted to pause.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And they said, “Don’t pause”.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They provided me with information that made me change my mind that the pause was not necessary, that we were ready to go, and reminded me that Windsor was my priority.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I mean, it -- I know that we’re - - this is -- can sound like it’s semantics, but it’s not really semantics because it’s not information they provided to you. It’s direction they provided you, isn’t it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Well, it was a discussion. I did not find that it was directive. It was a discussion that we had about my reasons for pausing.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
They simply took a different view than you about the importance of not giving a letter to the Ottawa protestors; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
No, the letter was going to be given regardless.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, okay. Then pausing while you -- but you wanted to give the letter to Ottawa and then let it go and do its work; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That was what my first option was, and that’s what I was considering.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so they said, “Here’s our judgment as strategic commanders. You’re a go, clear the Ambassador Bridge”, and you did.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that was part of the discussion.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. Now, then, finally, the PLT. We’ve spoke about this briefly, but the PLT was not able to get -- make yards on this protest. It was a failure of the ability to negotiate with this group of disparate protestors; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
I wouldn’t call any work of the Provincial Liaison Team a failure. Their effort was there. But it did not produce the results that we were hoping.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And the -- well, there are only two ways down this mountain. Either those protestors were going to leave because you asked them to leave and negotiated their withdrawal, including by giving a letter from the Solicitor-General of the province ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- or you were going to have to muscle them out with a POU operation; right?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Use an operational plan from POU, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Last question, then, please, just on the issue of strategic command. Could I show you, please, WTS39? This is the witness statement from the Commissioner, and I just need your help again because it’s -- it may be important to sorting out the roles and responsibilities of strategic commanders and incident commanders. Page 8, please. Under the heading “Incident Command System”, the Commissioner said this. And I don’t know whether you’ve seen this. Fourth line down, “While some Incident Commanders” -- do you see it?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
“...may feel as though they have complete autonomy, this is not the case. The Chief or Commissioner remains responsible to provide adequate and effective police services, is accountable to the Board under the Police Services Act in the case of a municipal police service, and is entitled to set strategic direction or give lawful orders. However, Incident Commanders should have operational autonomy to carry out strategic objectives set by senior command.” And that’s accurate.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so what occurred between you and Deputy Commissioner Harkins and Commissioner Carrique was simply that. Is that fair?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes. Fair.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Thank you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, you’re -- you and the City of Ottawa are overdrawn, but we’ll see when we get to Ottawa. The Windsor Police Service.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. THOMAS McRAE
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Good afternoon, Superintendent.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Good afternoon.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
My name is Tom McRae. I’m here for the Windsor Police Service. I only have a couple of questions.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Okay.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
I believe you told one of my friends earlier today that Windsor Police Service was responsible for the arrests that were made.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, it’s their jurisdiction.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And they -- I take it that they were also responsible for developing the arrest plans. Is that correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
They worked with me like every other plan to create the arrest plan.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And the prisoner transportation plans, too?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, they -- we worked alongside of each other to create those plans.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. There’s an organization that I’ve learned about called the Ontario Women in Law Enforcement. Are you aware of them?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And I understand that you were awarded, together with members of both the OPP and Windsor Police Service, with the teamwork award this past June. Is that correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And I also understand that it was Deputy Chief Crowley who put you up for that award. Is that correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes, that’s correct.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Those are my questions. Thank you.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
City of Ottawa?
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
We ceded our time, so we have no questions, Commissioner. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Police Service?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon, Superintendent. I’m Jessica Barrow. I’m counsel for the Ottawa Police Service.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Hello.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I just wanted to clarify one quick thing with you that came out of your conversation with Mr. Curry, and that’s the change that you made this morning to your witness statement.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So just to make sure I have it correct, what you indicated this morning was that you had a conversation with Commissioner Carrique as well as the Deputy Commissioner ---
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- in relation to whether to stand down the Windsor operation.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And as a result of that conversation, you ultimately decided to revert course and continue with the Windsor operation; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And just so that I understand it, the reason for that was because you obtained new information in the course of that conversation; correct?
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you couldn’t otherwise have had that information previously because you were in charge of the Windsor operation.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you had limited information or, I think, line of sight into that operation in Ottawa.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so it was less a question of being directive and more about sharing information with you that you couldn’t otherwise have had prior to that meeting.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so as a result of that meeting, you decided that the risks you initially were concerned about were not concerns after all and you could proceed with your operation.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Emilie Taman, for the Ottawa Coalition. We don’t have any questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Convoy Organizations?
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. Bath-Shéba Van den Berg for Freedom Corp and protestors. We have no questions for Superintendent Earley. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. National Police Federation?
Lauren Pearce, Counsel (National Police Federation)
Hello. This is Lauren Pearce for the National Police Federation. We also have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Province of Alberta?
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Good afternoon. This is Stephanie Bowers for the Province of Alberta. We have no further questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
Jinan Kubursi, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Thank you, Commissioner. We have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No, thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that was, obviously, very clear evidence. Nobody seems to want to cross- examine you -- or limited, I should say. Well, thank you very much for attending. You’re free to go, and we thank you for your evidence.
Dana Earley, Supt (ON-OPP)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So given the speedy way in which we went through this, I think we’ll take an hour and nine minutes for lunch today. So we’ll come back at 2 o’clock.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess until 2 o’clock. La commission est lever jusqu’à 14 h 00.
Upon recessing at 12 :51 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:01 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Allison McMahon, Commission Counsel, and our next witness is Paul Leschied.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Leschied?
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Leschied, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I'd like to affirm.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Paul, P-A-U-L, Winfield, W-I- N-F-I-E-L-D, Leschied, L-E-S-C-H-I-E-D.
MR. PAUL LESCHIED, Affirmed
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And, Commissioner, Mr. Leschied's counsel is appearing virtually and would like to briefly address the Commission.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, go ahead.
STATEMENT BY MS. LANI ROUILLARD
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Hi, there. My name is -- oh.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
My name is Lani Rouillard and I appear for Paul Leschied. And I'd just like to confirm prior to the proceeding with the witness that the protections of Section 9 of the Ontario Evidence Act and Section 5 of the Evidence Act of Canada are invoked for the witness.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, Mr. Leschied is under subpoena, and I deemed that -- I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any other person, and if but for the Acts invoked, the witness would -- or this Act, the witness would therefore have to have been excused from answering the questions, then although the witness is by reason of this Act, or the federal and provincial Act compelled to answer, the answers so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial or any other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than a prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence. So is that adequate then?
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Yes. Thank you, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. With that introduction, I think we can proceed with the examination. Go ahead.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you very much.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. ALLISON McMAHON
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Leschied, you were interviewed by Commission Counsel on October 4th; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up WTS00000049? Mr. Leschied, is that the -- a summary of the interview?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And have you had an opportunity to review this summary?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And do you have any corrections to it?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Then we'll ask that it be entered as an exhibit. Mr. Leschied, you live in McGregor, Ontario; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And that's about 15 kilometres from downtown Windsor?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Fifteen (15) to 20 kilometres from downtown Windsor, yeah.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what do you do for a living?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I co-own a contracting business that serves the greater Windsor-Essex County area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And have you been a life-long resident of the Essex County area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I've lived in Essex County area for the better part of the last 44 years, other than the time I spent at university and briefly in Alberta for a -- as a commercial helicopter pilot.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And can you please tell the Commissioner about how you became involved with protests against COVID-19 public health mandates?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would just say, like many other Canadians, I'd grown a little wary with the -- I guess the direction of our basic fundamental rights and freedoms kind of being transformed into privileges that can be granted or revoked based upon our personal compliance with whatever the latest mandate or bylaw that's being passed down by our federal, provincial or municipal leaders. That led me to be a little concerned as a father of three young children, the direction that this country's heading in, and so I participated in several peaceful, lawful protests, so that people's voices could be heard with these same concerns.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us about those protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, we had various fundraisers for people that have been negatively impacted, or had job losses, or had their businesses somewhat run into the ground, or not being able to make ends meet. We've had various freedom rallies at the flag, I guess that you would call it, at the downtown Windsor area of Riverside and Ouellette Avenue.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And are those the sort of weekly rallies that would take place starting in September ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I wouldn't say I was there for the weekly rallies. There have been weekly rallies and I was -- I did my part to offer whatever assistance or support that I could at several of these events over the last couple years.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how would you typically hear about protests that you would attend or fundraisers or rallies?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I just I've made a lot of friends and that would attend some of these rallies in the area that have similar concerns that I do. So, you know, through text message, periodic meetups where people might be discussing what they would like to do or what action maybe they would like to take next.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And would you post about it on social media or sort of join -- did you join any groups related to ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
More just, like, personal interactions with friends that were involved in the same sort of things.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you weren't part of any sort of formal organizations?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I wouldn't say that there was very many formal organizations. It was kind of a loose organization with people coming and going and that would be about it.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And a loose organization in the sense of just you have this network of friends who ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, like I said, it would be some people that were involved with this maybe prior to me getting involved, and then I would meet certain people over the course of these events, and ---
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
M'hm.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
--- that would be about it.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you help plan any of these rallies or ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I offered support where I could. I thought I was a calming influence on a lot of these events when perhaps maybe things got contentious or, you know, offer support in terms of setting things up. You know, we would have a sound stage, perhaps, and you know, I would offer support, and moving things from Point A to Point B, or hauling things from somewhere to wherever the venue happened to be at.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that in January 2022, and continuing into early February, there were slow roll protests on Huron Church Avenue. Is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And were you aware of those protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I was aware of those, yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you participate in them?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I did not.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Like attend them in any way or anything like that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And were you at that time following what was happening in Ottawa with the Freedom Convoy?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how were you monitoring that? Was it through social media, through traditional media?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Mostly social media, and then, you know, I had a couple of friends that were heading up there at various points during the Ottawa demonstrations.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we'll come back to that. But you didn't participate in any of the events in Ottawa did you?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So the blockade starts -- at the Ambassador Bridge starts on February 7th as I understand it. In the days leading up to that, were you aware that there might a protest in that area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So we have heard evidence over the last day-and-a-half that there were social media posts about a slow roll and potential blockade. But that was not something that you saw?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I knew that there was slow rolls going on. Was there rumours about this event or that event going on? There's all kinds of things being shared across social media, but I was not aware of any organisation for an event that was going to start on February 7th.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Was a blockade of the Ambassador Bridge something that you had heard rumours about?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Very loosely. Like, I mean, you might have heard somebody suggest, "Oh, well that would be a -- that would be an interesting idea", but nothing that would ever have been something that I was involved in discussing.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you attended the blockade for the first time on the evening of February 7th; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And around what time would you have arrived?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I'd estimate round 9:00 p.m.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And for the rest of the week would you typically attend around the same time?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, I would usually go after my young children were put to bed, and I would head down from between the hours of eight and nine until maybe twelve to one o'clock in the morning.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so on that first evening, on February 7th, where were the protesters located?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So where I went was at the intersection of Girardot and Huron Church Avenue, which is approximately a half kilometre south of the egress point of the Ambassador Bridge southbound on Huron Church.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And Mr. Registrar, could we please pull up the map of Windsor, just so that we can see where that is? And so as I understand it, the egress point, as you referred to it, is north of College on Huron Church; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So would that be in the vicinity of that purple icon?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah. Yeah, somewhere between the purple and maybe just a little bit south of that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And Girardot, that's down the -- that's ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So Girardot would be if you see the second cross street, I see you there as a little -- where it says Dot Avenue beside it and you see like an intersection there, that would be where the intersection of Girardot and Huron Church would be.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And that's about halfway between College and Tecumseh?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so when you arrived at the protest that night, were vehicles blocking the intersection?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There was probably three to four pickup trucks blocking or straddling both sides of Huron Church Avenue north and southbound at that intersection.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so were they driving down Girardot, I'm sorry I'm going to butcher that street name - --
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- or were they driving down Huron Church?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
See, they weren't driving when I got there, they were just kind of straddled across, like perpendicular to Huron Church Avenue so that they were impeding the traffic at Girardot and Huron Church.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And approximately how many vehicles were blocking the intersection?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say three to four.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you participate in that blockade?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. I parked much further away on a side street.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so then you walked in?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And were there -- were most people in their cars or were they on foot?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
They would be on foot. Other than those three to four cars that were involved there, everybody else would be on foot.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Roughly how many other protesters were...
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
When I got there, maybe 40, 50, somewhere in that range.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
They were standing in the intersection, on the sidewalks?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
On the sidewalks, some in the intersection of that area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And were there police present?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
What were they doing?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So there would have been police vehicles at the intersection near, I guess on the east side of that road where the Assumption High School area is.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And had they set up blockades anywhere?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So I didn't discover that until after I left that evening, and then I had seen that there was Windsor Police vehicles at several of the intersections surrounding the general area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And that's on February the 7th?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And yesterday we saw evidence that protesters had started setting up a camp on the first night and had told police that they were staying put and not moving. Is that someth8ing that you observed?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I didn't observe that at the Girardot intersection, which is the only spot that I really walked.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you weren't at College Street, for example?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not on February 7th, no.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And you didn't sort of walk by there when you were ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Well, my impressions at Girardot was that there was semi-trucks backed up on both north and southbound lanes for as far as my eyes could see. So I had no reason to really walk along all of the other semi-trucks on the road that were just sitting there idling.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And was your impression that they were backed up because of the blockade at Girardot?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes, that's correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what time did you leave the protest on that first night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would estimate one o'clock in the morning.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you expect that the protesters would stay overnight?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
When I left, there was probably a dozen or so protesters left there, and I had assumed that that would be a one-off type of event and it would be over by the next morning, or later that night.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So while you were there you hadn't discussed with anybody that they might stay there overnight?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think I might've asked, like "is anybody planning to stay here beyond the evening" because the numbers had dwindled as -- in the three or four hours that I was there, and I had just assumed by one o'clock in the morning, when it was kind of apparent that there was more police presence in the area than there were protesters, that this wasn't going to go on for any length of time.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you attended the protest again the next night; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I remember asking a friend the next morning "Is anything still going on at the Ambassador Bridge or Huron Church area?", and he said, "Yeah, it's still going on", which I was very surprised of. And so, yeah, I went down the second evening about the same time.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And was that friend somebody who had stayed overnight at the protest?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know any of the people who were in the trucks blocking the intersection that night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I had never seen any of the people in the three or four pickup trucks or SUVs that were there that night, prior or since.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so on the second night, the protest is more centrally located at College Street. Were the lanes all blocked in every direction on, excuse me, was Huron Church blocked in both directions?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So on that second night, the protests seemed to be centrally located at the southbound egress point from the Ambassador Bridge, so those lanes would have been blocked. Northbound, I believe there was maybe one or two protest vehicles on the northbound area, but the entire perimeter, I guess, of the College/Huron Church intersection was cordoned off by police vehicles.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So all four points of the intersection were blocked off by police vehicles?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Okay, I would say three of the four parts and then the southbound Huron Church just south of College Avenue that was where more of the protest vehicles that didn't fit on, say, the northside of where the egress area is from Ambassador Bridge, they had started to park on that south section of the southbound lanes of Huron Church south of College Avenue.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And approximately how many protesters were there that night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
People or vehicles?
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Both.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say perhaps 40 vehicles, a few large semi-trucks, and probably between 100, 150 protesters. Again, the numbers fluctuated over the times that I was there, usually dwindling as the evenings got later.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did the crowd dynamic change as things got later?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say from my interactions with other people, the crowd dynamic might have changed from the daytime to the evening times. But from the times I would get there at 9:00 until 1:00 o’clock, which was my average times that I would have been there, the dynamic would have stayed the same, just the numbers probably would have dropped off as people left to go home.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And could you describe what the atmosphere was like when you attended the protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, there would be music, the National Anthem would be sung, you know, periodically. There would be food being shared amongst anybody and everybody that was -- wanted to be part of that. Generally just a peaceful gathering of people that were there for various reasons.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you talk to other protestors about their reasons for being there?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not really specifically. Its probably largely assumed, the reasons. I mean, I think I spoke to a few of the truck drivers who expressed their reasons for being there was more in line with the fact that they were about to face losing their ability to cross the international border without compliance with the mandates to cross and drive their trucks to and from the United States.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
But there were personal vehicles there as well, ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There was.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- and individuals who weren’t ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- truck drivers?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Exactly.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did they have different goals?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I don’t think I really spoke in depth with some of the strangers that I was meeting for the first time about why they were there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
M’hm.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think it was just assumed to me that they were there celebrating or expressing their peaceful right to protest.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And on the Tuesday, what was the police presence like?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Well, it certainly had grown. Definitely seemed to be a little bit more organized than on the first night when things were a little bit more new. They generally seemed to be -- from the ones that I was able to interact with, or witness other people interacting with, very friendly and cordial with the protestors that were there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have -- did you interact with any of the police officers?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not more than to be a party in perhaps talks that they were having with other people, other than to offer hellos or greetings to some of the officers that might have been in the areas where I was.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did -- were they telling you anything about your right to be there or encouraging you to leave? Anything like that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
On that second night, certainly there was a lot of -- I shouldn’t say a lot. There was some police officers that would suggest, “We support your right to be here,” or, “We’re happy that --” maybe not the word happy, “We’re in support with what you’re doing here and everything seems to be peaceful.” That’d be about it.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So they weren’t advising you that you had to leave or be arrested?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And were there more barricades on this night than there had been the previous night or was it pretty consistent?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, the previous night, I wouldn’t suggest that there was -- I didn’t remember seeing barricades. I would say that there was police cruisers at intersections, and I guess if that represents a barricade, that would be what I would say on night number one. And then night number two, they would have some of those construction, like, orange construction wooden barricades at some of the intersections in the area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand from your interview summary that some protestor vehicles were able to come and go from the protest area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
On that second night, yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did that work, if there were the wooden barriers and cruisers stationed along the intersections?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So I remember noticing around -- between somewhere around midnight and maybe 12:30, a couple trucks that -- semi trucks or large size trucks had entered -- or had had to go around the Tecumseh Road/Huron Church intersection to go down some of the residential streets that would be west of Huron Church. And you could hear the horns. And they entered, I believe, at College Avenue and Huron Church, where there would have been a police cruiser and orange barricades. And upon them arriving at the intersection, I saw the police officers get out of the vehicles, remove the barricades, and allow the trucks to enter into that intersection, and then basically direct them to park on the southbound lanes of Huron Church Avenue south of College Avenue.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you see any other cooperation between the police and protestors?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, generally, I think in that second night, there was an ability for vehicles to leave later on in the evening if they were not planning to remain parked on Huron Church Avenue that night. I’m not exactly sure where they were facilitated to come and go. I know there’s a couple intersections there that would allow you to exit to the west of Huron Church, and perhaps they were being -- the cruisers maybe would have allowed some of those trucks or passenger vehicles to exit at that point. I don’t remember actually witnessing how they were getting out.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So something that you were aware of, but ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I just remember -- I guess I’m deducing this from the fact that there was different vehicles there, say on night two, from the subsequent nights, and I can only assume that they had to have been able to leave on their own accord with police cooperation.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Commissioner, I just want to say for the record, the map that I referred to earlier is Doc ID COM00000930. And that’s a screenshot of the same map that was shown to you yesterday and a link for which was circulated to the parties yesterday. I just wanted to clarify that point. Now, on Wednesday night, were protestors still at College?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And were there also additional protest sites?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I had heard that there was -- there was -- about some protestors that wanted to, perhaps, blockade the Wyandotte entrance to the Ambassador Bridge. I never went over there to see it. I know that there was some protestors that perhaps wanted to be involved with blocking the Tecumseh Road and Huron Church intersections. But I never really walked to the Wyandotte area to see what was really going on.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And just referring back to the map, Wyandotte is where there’s an entry to the Ambassador Bridge Port of Entry ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It would be like the ancillary entry, whereas the main entry would be northbound Huron Church into the Ambassador Bridge area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And was that -- to your knowledge, was that intersection completely blocked?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
The northbound entrance to the Ambassador Bridge?
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
The Wyandotte.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Oh, the Wyandotte one. Again, I didn’t go there. I just remember hearing some protestors say, “It’s blocked.” And then you’d hear, “It’s not blocked.” And then, “It’s been given up in negotiations for emergency use vehicles to come and go.” But again, I never saw it with my own eyes to be able to say when it was blocked, when it was not blocked.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you -- were you aware of who was engaging in negotiations over things like emergency lanes?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would have just -- I would have been hearing this third hand from somebody who maybe would have heard those negotiations prior to my arrival.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so at this point, was any traffic able to enter or exit the bridge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
To the best of my knowledge, the northbound entrance to the Ambassador Bridge was always open, and I believe it was being used by law enforcement, or perhaps CBSA, to come and go, because that’s a very large, like, two or three lane entrance point to the bridge. And it was secured from night number two until the end of the demonstration by law enforcement. And it was never really impeded by protestors, although, because Huron Church was basically blocked by -- or secured at Tecumseh Road by Windsor Police Services or other law enforcement, that you couldn’t get to that northbound area as a -- no vehicle could really get into that area.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Were there also vehicles at the -- or protestors, excuse me, at the Tecumseh Road intersection?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Periodically I believe I would see some, but it was a very small contingent that was at that intersection.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what was the crowd like, relative to the previous nights?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
And this is on the Wednesday, we’re talking?
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Largely the same as the previous night. Perhaps a little bit larger, maybe, in the number of people that were there. But the same sort of things going on, National Anthems, food, more or less a cordial atmosphere amongst everybody that was there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Sort of a party-like atmosphere, or?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, but I mean it would die down from being a party as the evening got later and colder and...
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And were people drinking alcohol?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I never saw that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
You didn’t see anyone drinking? Okay. Or using drugs?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I didn’t see that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And what was the police presence like on Wednesday night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So it started to become more apparent that it looked like they were preparing -- I believe seeing police vehicles that didn’t look recognizable to me as Windsor Police Service vehicles there. I remember seeing around midnight or 1 o’clock, like, a green pick-up truck with several, what I can only estimate would be, like, SWAT team-type members dressed up in the back of the truck, kind of coming out of that northbound entrance area into the Ambassador Bridge. And they would come and, I don’t know, either do whatever that it was that they were practising to do, or if they were trying to gather information. And then -- and then they would leave.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And it looked to you like they were not Windsor Police officers?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It didn’t look to me like a vehicle I had ever recognized as a Windsor Police vehicle. And it -- I believe it was like a green, like, F250 or F350-style vehicle.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So moving to Thursday night; in your witness statement you said that the police started to encourage protestors to leave the area; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say that was on Friday, I think, is when I would gather that I started to hear some of those suggestions.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. It was on Friday. And was -- that was a change in messaging from what you’d heard previously from police?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, I would say so.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And how did the protestors react to that message?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think most of the protestors were still -- still were, still were of the opinion that they were not going to leave until some level of achievement had been made for the purposes of their demonstration.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And what would some level of achievement be?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Perhaps maybe a discussion with somebody that they were seeking to have a conversation with. I guess I can only speak for hearing some of the drivers of the larger trucks that were going to be faced with losing the ability to perform their job if they weren’t going to comply with a mandate, and so that was their, in my estimation, reason for being there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did it feel like the protestors were united on that point; or did people have different motivations and ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say some of the protestors and certainly the ones that were in the profession of driving heavy trucks. But again, I’d be assuming what -- what every person’s reason that wasn’t a truck driver was there; why they were there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
But there wasn’t sort of a formal list of demands that you were aware of?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There’s nothing like that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And before Friday night did you believe that the protest was lawful, and you could remain there without fear of arrest?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct, yeah.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And on Friday did that change?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I was not aware of the details of the injunction. I had heard that it was being discussed. I showed up on that night, the same way I did on the previous four nights, to be part of a peaceful demonstration and observe with my own two eyes what was happening and in the backyard of my own community that I’ve been a part of.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand about the injunction that night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not very much, to be honest.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you knew it had been granted?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I wasn’t sure when perhaps it had been granted, I just knew that it was in talks. That was about the extent of it.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
If I could please pull up WPS -- I believe it’s seven zeros 49. And it’ll be page 16. This is an affidavit that was filed in the injunction proceedings. And on page 16 there is a message to demonstrators, which I understand was distributed by the Windsor Police Service on February 11th. And you can see on the screen that it says: “The Windsor Police Service wants to make demonstrators clearly aware that it is a criminal offence to obstruct, interrupt or interfere with the lawful use, enjoyment, or operation of property. The offense itself is known [to] mischief [of] property. The unlawful act of blocking streets at and near the Ambassador Bridge is resulting in people being denied the lawful use, enjoyment and operation of their property and causing businesses to close down. We are providing notice that anyone blocking streets or assisting others in the blocking of streets may be committing a criminal offence and must immediately cease further unlawful activity or you may face charges. You could be arrested if you are a party to the offence or assisting others in the direct or indirect commission of this offence.” Is this something that you saw while you were at the protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see it at any point?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Is it consistent with what you were being told by the Windsor Police Service that night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. I was never told any of the -- what you just read off there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So you weren’t aware that you might be charged with mischief, for example?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I understand that Friday was the last day that you attended the protests, is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think I just got the sense on that Friday that they were going to put a -- put an end to this protest. And the following Saturday, again, I -- I’m only able -- I was only able to go at these later times in the evening, after I’d worked all day, and again, put my children to bed at night. And on that Saturday, it was kind of clear that things were escalating to the point that this was going to come to an end, and there was no reason for me to head down to it.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And on the Friday, Ontario declared a state of emergency; were you aware of that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I might have heard it on the radio.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did that influence your decision to leave the protest?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. Again, I was just there to -- I was there to witness what was happening so that I could know what was actually going on down at the Ambassador Bridge demonstration. Because I figured that was probably the only way I was going to know really what was happening is to witness it with my own two eyes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And that brings up the issue of media coverage, which is something that you spoke about in your interview summary. Did you feel that the media coverage of the protest was generally accurate?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would say that there was a lot of, perhaps, exaggeration of what was happening at the demonstration in Windsor. It was certainly being painted as something that I didn’t witness for the five days that I was there, which was simply a peaceful protest of people that wanted to have their voices heard.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And how was it being painted?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I remember seeing videos or clips on the mainstream media showing trucks, like, backed up across the Ambassador Bridge beyond that first night, which did -- I mean, I think they cleared the Ambassador Bridge within 12 hours or so on that first night, s that was never -- that was never going on the rest of the week. There was only, like, four to six semi trucks that were involved in impeding or blockading traffic on that southbound Huron Church area, and it certainly made -- the coverage certainly seemed to make it sound like it was much larger in scale and scope than that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And in -- was there any information about the effect of the blockade that you felt was inaccurate, in terms of the kind of economic impact on ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I don’t know what the actual economic impact is ‘cause that’s not something I study or really learn or know about.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So it was just sort of the images that you were seeing didn’t reflect what you were ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, not just what I’m seeing in Windsor, but I mean I kind of observed the same sort of misrepresentation from what I would hear from friends that were in Ottawa versus what was actually being shown on television in regards to the nature of the demonstrations that were going on.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I’m going to go briefly back to the State of Emergency that was declared on February 11th -- effective on the 12th, midnight of the 12th. If we could go back to WPS000000049, please? And page 19. So this is another flyer that I understand was distributed on the 11th. Is this something that you saw?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, I'd like to ask you about sort of the organization of the protest and the leadership, which is the man that we've already touched on a little bit. But your evidence earlier was that you weren’t aware of any formal plan around the protest; am I getting that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, that’s correct.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so you don’t know who started it or how they disseminated the message to go to Huron Church and ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Giradot? Okay. So to the best of your knowledge, it just came together kind of organically?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That would have been my assumption, yes.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you observe anyone who appeared to be speaking on behalf of protesters to police?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So as far as you were aware, police were sort of just interacting with protesters?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There were certain groups that the police would be talking with, but not like, one central group that would seem like they would be engaging with on a routine basis.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So when you say that there were groups that they would be engaging with, do you just mean that on a given day, that you might see them talking to a particular group of people, but the next day you'd see them talking to someone else?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So there was no consistency in who was ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. It was a leaderless movement that I didn’t see one focal point that was being discussed, discussing things with law enforcement on a routine basis.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you have a sense that the protest would have ended at some point if the police hadn’t intervened, or was it the police intervention that brought it to an end?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I can only speculate. I mean, the police brought it to an end. How things would have unfolded if that didn’t happen, I don't know.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
But at that point on Friday when you left, there was no sort of sense that everyone was going to start packing up and leaving?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I didn’t get that sense.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Now, something that you mentioned earlier was that some people at the protest felt that they wanted to talk to somebody in government; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I wouldn't say that would -- I guess that would be an assumption that I made, that you know, they wanted to have their voices heard because they had largely been silenced and they had no other -- they probably felt they had no other option as to who could they talk to regarding the mandates that were coming that would force them or cause them to be able to lose their ability to do their jobs crossing the international border.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so -- and I know that this is something that you had mentioned in your interview summary as well, is that you felt like politicians were refusing to kind of engage with the protesters and hear them out; is that true?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah. I never saw any politicians came to engage with anybody there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So as apart from the protesters generally, for you personally, was it a goal to have a politician come and speak to you or acknowledge the protest?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I wouldn't say that I went there with any goals.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Could we please pull up ONT00000858? This -- if you could scroll down a bit -- keep going a little bit more -- thank you. This is a letter from the solicitor general of Ontario, Sylvia Jones, to the commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police, which is dated February 11th. And it states: "This letter is being sent regarding the protest activity occurring in Windsor and restricting access to the Ambassador Bridge, which must end. The Government of Ontario is proposing that a meeting occur within an agreeable time period between a select group of protest leadership and representatives of the province to allow their issues to be heard. To move forward with our offer to schedule a meeting, all protesters must leave the protest site immediately, denounce all unlawful activity, and encourage a period of quiet. This means no unlawful, unpeaceful, unsafe protest activity to occur between the time of acceptance of this offer until the meeting takes place." Have you ever seen this letter before?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So it's not something that you -- was shared with you on the 11th?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Was the offer set out in this letter something that you think you would have been interested in?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Me personally, no.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Why is that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I just -- I was there to observe what was happening and to support other people that were there for their particular reasons to conduct themselves in a peaceful, lawful protest.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so you don’t think that other protesters would have wanted to do -- to accept this offer of a ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I can't say that other protesters -- there's probably other protesters that may have accepted this offer, but I can only speak for myself.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Were you in contact with anyone involved in the Ottawa protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I have some friends that had gone up to Ottawa, and I would interact with them or ask them how things were, wherever they were at.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And were these friends from Windsor Essex County area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Were they involved in the leadership of the ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- Ottawa protest? They were just protesters joining the movement?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
They were just people that wanted to go up and support in whatever ways they could from our region.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And did you -- were you in touch with anyone who was in the leadership of the Ottawa protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I guess you'd have to define. What do you mean by "leadership of the Ottawa protests"?
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
For example, this Commission has heard from Chris Barber.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Pat King?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think I had a brief exchange just to ask if there was any sort of connection between what was happening in Windsor and what was happening in Ottawa, and I got a categorical no response to that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And when you say you asked if there any sort of connection, was this -- were you asking for support or was this ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- is there an existing - --
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There were so many rumours throughout the entire week of oh, there's -- the convoy is coming down to Windsor, and hundreds of vehicles coming down to Windsor. And I was just trying to figure out, like, what perhaps is actually going on here and what might be going on here in Windsor.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell us about the rumours that you were hearing about the connection?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Just that there was constant rumours of more trucks are on their way from this location or that location.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And so besides Pat King, were you in touch with somebody like Tamara Lich?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
James Bauder?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Any other person who sort of identified as a figure -- a leadership figure within the ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- convoy movement?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Was disrupting cross-border trade one of the reasons that protesters decided to blockade the bridge specifically?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I can only speculate the reasons why other people decided to choose that location.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you think that that was the reason that the bridge was a good location ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Certainly, it's ---
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
--- for protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It's certainly a strategic reasonable -- a spot where you could garner some attention that might allow you to have your voices heard, if that was the intention.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Now, we heard evidence yesterday about children present at the protest. Is that something that you saw?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
After 9 o'clock at night, no, I didn’t see anybody that would be considered a child. I mean, there might have been some teenagers there, but no, it was usually an adult crowd when I would arrive.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever hear anyone suggest that children could be used as human shields?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And after the blockade ended, after that first -- after the weekend where the police cleared out the protest on the 12th and the 13th, were you aware of any discussion about doing another protest at the bridge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I never heard about that.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
So there was -- you never heard of the slogan "Taking back the bridge" while the police were kind of busy in Ottawa?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
On social media? Never saw that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
And was there -- there was no discussion of re-establishing the blockade after the injunction expired?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not that I was aware of.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is important for the Commissioner to know?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think you've covered everything in my statement there.
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. First, the Government of Canada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CYNTHIA LAU
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Leshied. Cynthia Lau, one of the counsel for the Government of Canada. Mr. Leschied, you had testified that you co-own a contracting business. You are the owner of a custom cabinetry business in Ontario; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you’ve -- that has been in operation for 12 years as far as your co-ownership; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you offer services for designing, building, installing kitchens and cabinetry, bathrooms, and custom living spaces; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You would agree with me that your business uses higher quality material, would you not?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Sure.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Can I ask the relevancy of this line of questioning, please?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Yes, may I please ask the relevancy of this line of questioning?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You certainly can ask. What’s the relevance of his business and the quality of the materials?
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
This is a background information pertaining to the overall business and economics of the Ambassador Bridge in the Windsor area.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So exploring on the business area. Is that okay?
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Sure. Thank you, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And some of these supplies are imported from outside of Canada; would you agree with me?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Sure.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And some of these supplies are also imported through the Ambassador Bridge Port of Entry; would you agree with that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You would also agree with me that maintaining a healthy supply chain has a significant impact on your revenues, would you not?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And would agree with me that interruption in the supply chain impacts other businesses aside from your own?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And it would also impact the automobile industry?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would assume so, yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You have testified that you’ve been a resident of Essex County for approximately 44 years?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you also testified that it’s a strategic spot to garner attention to have your voice heard?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You are aware of the importance of the Ambassador Bridge for the effective, efficient free flow of trade and goods into and out of Canada and the US; fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Sure.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you’re also aware that the Ambassador Bridge is a vital commercial land border crossing, are you not?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you would agree with me that traffic disruptions will affect Canada’s economy and supply chain?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Before February 7th, there was a slow roll in the area of the Ambassador Bridge for a couple weeks, as I understand it; is that your understanding?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I didn’t participate in any of the slow rolls, but I was aware that they were going on at certain times.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Right. And I take it that, based upon your evidence, you were following what was happening in Ottawa mostly through social media?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And a blockade was ultimately set up at Ambassador Bridge on February 7th?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, my only understanding is that a blockade was set up at Girardot and Huron Church on February 7th.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Right. And you were present there on that date?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Do you also understand that the blockade was inspired by the events in Ottawa?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I can only assume that.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And the vehicles that were parked were parked on Huron Church Road, which is the main entrance and exit to the Ambassador Bridge; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you had testified that on the first evening, February 7th, you parked your vehicle on Girardot and Huron Church and then you walked in from the side street onto Huron Church; is that right?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I did not park my vehicle at Huron Church and Girardot. I would have been on a side street far west from that intersection.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
All right. So I understand that you were at the site of the blockade from February 7th to the 11th each evening, approximately 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. until about midnight or one o’clock; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That’s correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And for the other evenings -- I’m talking about the 8th to the 11th -- were you parked on Huron Church?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You were parked on the side street?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
The side streets or perhaps like the strip-mall plaza up near Tecumseh Road east of the intersection at Huron Church.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Right. And then you would attend Huron Church by way of walking and you would be one of the pedestrians on the street; is that fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would usually walk down the sidewalk on Huron Church Avenue towards the College intersection.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And then would you situate yourself on the street as a pedestrian at some point during the evenings?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would just intermingle with some of the people that perhaps I recognized that would be in the general area.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
The general area of a street?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes, of Huron Church and College Avenue.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
During the time of the protests, you were communicating with other protesters by way of chat applications and text messages, as I understand it; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And throughout these exchanges, you were communicating relevant information about the status of the protests; is that fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
“Relevant information”? I would just say “general information”.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So general information, for example, about planning?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
No. General information about developments?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes, just of what I was seeing.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Observations that were ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes, observations.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
--- happening on the ground?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
“Observations”, that’s best.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Would you agree with me that there was no one person or group in charge of the protesters?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I agree, yeah.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you’d further acknowledge that -- you’ve described it as a “leaderless movement” -- there was a diverse group of protesters; is that fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
There was no one directing the protests?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And there was no agreement on strategy?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not that I was aware of.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And there was no agreement on which intersections to block? As I understood it, you said that some of the protesters you’d overheard wanted to block Wyandotte Street to Ambassador Bridge, other wanted to block Tecumseh and Huron, but ultimately there was no agreement.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you would be making assumptions about the goals of the protesters; is that fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That’s fair, yeah.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
The last day that you were at the protest site was February 11th, 2022?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And I understand from your interview that at that point, you saw that law enforcement was building and they were encouraging people to leave; is that a fair description?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes. I would say law enforcement was building up prior to that Friday, though.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
But by February 11th, it had increased in that building up of their presence and their involvement at the site; is that fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Absolutely, yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And things were escalating, in fact?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
“Escalating” by -- what do you mean, in regard to protesters or ---
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
It was escalating insofar as the encouragement for people to leave and that there was a perception that the law enforcement was pending; fair to say?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There was definitely a perception and I had overheard a couple of law enforcement officers suggest that maybe, “You’ve made your point. It’s time to go home now.”
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you did go home? In fact, didn’t return on February 12th; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I did not, no.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You would agree with me that a potential unlawful protest did not deter all of the protesters from returning after February 11th; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct. Correct, yeah.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Because the didn’t have a leader to direct them whom they followed?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, that would be an assumption as to why they decided to be there beyond then.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And it was also your belief that on February 12th, there would be skirmishes or mass arrests; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Can you repeat how you want - - how you asked that question?
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Sure. On February 12th, you had anticipated, as I understand from your interview summary, that there would be skirmishes or mass arrests.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It became apparent. I mean, you saw the militarized police vehicle staged there and it kind of looked like there was going to be an abrupt end put to this protest.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And some of your friends were actually present at the site of Huron Church on February 12th; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
They were there. I'm not exactly sure where.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And they told you what was happening on the ground floor?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would have heard it from third-hand information after the fact.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And some of that third-hand information that you heard was that there were individuals who were shouting slurs at police?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I had heard that that was going on, yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You would agree with me that that could increase a level of aggression of the crowd?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, that'd be an assumption.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And police, as I understand it, were giving protesters the option to leave the blockade area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Say that again? They were or they weren't?
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Police were ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
--- giving protesters the option to leave?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I believe so.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
But they didn't all leave; did they?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I was not there that day.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Well, did you hear from your friends? Did all the ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I would have been watching it on social media like anybody else, to see what was actually happening on that February 12th.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So based upon what you saw, you knew that not everyone had left?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Starting February 7th, I put to you that no other vehicles except for emergency vehicles could get through the Huron Church area due to the blockade?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Well, I mean, certainly vehicles came and went from that intersection that I was witnessing on those first -- or that second night.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Well, the Windsor witnesses would say to the contrary. As I understand it, you were motivated to attend the protest because you were skeptical of mainstream media; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That was one of the reasons. Correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
What was the other reason?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, as a small business owner that has largely not been economically impacted over the last couple years, I wanted to show support for several of my other fellow business owners who either lost businesses or were barely able to make ends meet, who wanted to have their voices heard, that had largely not had that opportunity or had been silenced over the previous year regarding these mandates that were adversely affecting their ability to conduct business.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And I put it to you that the small business owners would include people who relied upon the supply chain being viable coming through the Ambassador Bridge port of entry.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I can't speak as to how that would have affected other business owners.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And you wanted a firsthand account of what was happening?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That's correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
You had testified, as I understand it, that you never saw trucks backed up across Ambassador Bridge beyond the first night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That's correct.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
So that would be February 7th; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
And as I understand it, among other things, you do not believe that the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge overall has been accurately portrayed?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Somewhat, yeah.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
I'd like to turn to a video, PB.CAN.00001800_REL.0001. And I'm going to turn you to video footage from the WDIV of February 8. Mr. Clerk, could you please turn up that video for me at timestamp 1:14.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is going to be pretty well the end. You're now up at the limit of your time, so you're going to have to be brief.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Okay. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Pause, please. Mr. Leschied, you would agree with me that this is an accurate video clip of the impacts caused by the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge; would you not?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would agree that there is - - that the last part of your statement that there was an impact of the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, may I just show one one-minute video?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. But that'll have to be it.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Thank you very much for your indulgence. I'd like to turn to PB.CAN.00001802_REL.0001, and the timestamp 3:27. This is a video of the February 10th Bluewater Bridge area. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Thank you very much. So I would put to you that you would agree that these are accurate -- this is an accurate video clip of the impact caused by the blockade at Bluewater Bridge, which is one hour and 12 minutes away from Ambassador?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I wasn't there to see what was going on, but I can only assume that Bluewater would have been far busier because they were not able to cross at the Ambassador Bridge.
Cynthia Lau, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for the time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. THOMAS McRAE
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Good afternoon, Mr. Leschied. My name is Tom McRae, and I am here for the Windsor Police Service. First, I think you told my friend for Canada that you parked at a strip mall on Tecumseh; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Did you have permission from the owner of that strip mall to park there?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. I understand from your evidence I think to you, again, my friend from Canada, that you used chat applications in your discussions with your friends ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Sure.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
--- during this. What chat applications did you use?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Just regular text messaging or Telegram. I -- perhaps there's others, but that would be to the best of my recollection.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
How did you communicate with Mr. King in Ottawa?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
One of those two, I would assume.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. Did you have those messages available to you at the time when you were interviewed by Commission Counsel at the beginning of October?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
They would have been on my phone, yes.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Were you asked to give copies of those communications?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Have you produced any documents within this Commission hearing besides your statement?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Sure, no.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. I understand that at one point you said you were not -- I want to get your evidence fairly, but you had no goals in attending other than -- I’m putting together your answers -- seeing what was happening because you didn’t trust conventional media, and to support your friends; is that fair?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That’s correct.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
All right. And you didn’t support conventional media. Does that mean you did not observe conventional media?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Just through clips or third- party information that I would have received. I certainly would have seen clips or heard on the radio, perhaps, their assessment of what was happening there.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. And on the radio or through these clips, did you learn about the injunction that was obtained by the City of Windsor on the 11th?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
So at no time did you learn about the injunction that the City of Windsor ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I just overheard discussions that there was talks of an injunction on that -- towards the end of that week.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Okay. So you don’t know, and you did not check, to see whether or not that injunction was issued?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
You said you had friends whom you were supporting by your attending at the bridge site. Were any of these friends in the auto industry, employed in the auto industry?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, not specifically.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Did you learn through your review on social media, or otherwise, of the views of people in the automobile industry?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Repeat that question again.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Well, my friend from Canada showed you a video clip, the second one, which suggested that there were automobile shutdowns, the Ford plant, I think, and another plant, one in some township in Michigan. It’s clear, I put to you, sir, that the automobile industry, in particular, was being affected by the shutdown of the Ambassador Bridge; do you accept that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That would be an assumption. I mean, I’m not involved in he automotive industry, but it would be a viable conclusion.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Okay. So you don’t know but you don’t disagree; is that fair?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That’s correct.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
All right. Did you discuss the impact of the shutdown of any of these auto manufacturing facilities with anyone who was employed at any of these automobile manufacturing facilities?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Were you concerned at all with the impact of the shutdown of the Ambassador Bridge on any of these people employed at these facilities?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I was there -- I was there to support friends that I know have been negatively impacted over the last couple of years in various professions regarding these mandates that were being put in place.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And at the time of this blockade of the Ambassador Bridge, there had been a shutdown -- a province-wide shutdown a month or so earlier; is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I don’t -- you’d have to get more specific for me to answer. (SHORT PAUSE)
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner. If we could go to your witness statement, and I will get the number wrong. It is WTS ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Forty-nine (49).
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Forty-nine (49); thank you. Could we pull that up, please, Mr. Clerk? (SHORT PAUSE)
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Could you go, please sir, to the bottom of page 5 of that statement? And I’m focusing now, Mr. Leschied, on the events of Saturday, February 12th, 2022. Just to make it clear to the Commission, you did not attend on that day.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That’s correct.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And I think your evidence was, and it is in this statement, that you were concerned that there would be skirmishes or mass arrests.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I just would say that it looked like there was going to be an abrupt end put to the demonstrations that were going on all week, and like I stated before, I was only ever available or had an option to attend late in the evenings, and it was pretty apparent that it was being put to an end and I wasn’t going to go back in the evening on Saturday to be a part of that.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And you were of that view even though your evidence earlier, as I understand it, was you didn’t know that the police were warning that these protesters were engaged in criminal activity, nor did you know about the injunction; is that fair?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I just made my assessment based on the overall stance that the police had taken towards the end of the week, that things were going to be put to an end, and the rumours that I had heard swirling that, you know, there was paddy wagons or police vehicles staged to be able to conduct mass arrests.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
The second-last paragraph of your statement, which is before you, sir, says: “Some of Mr. Leschied’s friends were present at the protest.” So you’re getting that second or thirdhand.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Is that correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
“They told him that some individuals were shouting slurs at the police.”
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Did they disclose to you the nature of the slurs that were being shouted at the police?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It was more the context of they weren’t sure of the particular individuals that were shouting these slurs at the police. Because I didn’t know any of them, and neither did they. And I guess the context was more regarding the nature or the purpose of why these slurs were being used, and that would be the extent of it.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
“His friends...” Meaning your friends:
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
...believed these were agents provocateurs...”
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
That would have been their assessment that it was a possibility.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Sorry; so when we say, agents provocateurs, are we talking about false flag operations, in the language of Alex Jones, or what?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, this is just what I’m hearing thirdhand from friends that were saying that they observed this particular activity.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Yeah, but what was the motivation of these alleged agents provocateurs ?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It wasn’t my -- it was not my -- I was not alleging these; I was just hearing this thirdhand information.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Were they trying to provoke the police into action in order to create a problem that would just grow and grow, or were they provoking people in order ---
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
I think we -- sir. I think we can all speculate as to what people were thinking here, but if we could stick to the strict dialogue that’s within my witness’s knowledge, please.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
I object to that objection, Mr. Commissioner. For some reason the Commission put this in the witness statement. It is fair cross-examination fodder. The Commission is asking -- Commission Counsel are asking, pardon me, that the Commission take this as evidence. And if it’s second or third hearsay, well, I guess that goes to weight, but it doesn’t mean I cannot cross-examine on it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you can ask him about it, but there’s only so much he can say, so let’s ---
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
I heard you but let’s -- I’m just trying to get as far as we can go with what he can say. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, let’s take it one question at a time.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
All right. I’ll take a step back. Sir, your friends told you that these agents provocateurs were trying to antagonize the police into using violence?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think the context might be that the protest was peaceful for the entire week, and there was no reason for any of the people that I knew, or any of my friends describing people that they knew there, to engage in violence. That was never the intention of anybody there. So it just seemed perhaps out of the ordinary or it didn’t fit with the general stance of the protesters for the entire week that I was there, the five nights that I was there.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Do you have any insight as to why this stance changed at this time?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, this would be the speculation that perhaps there was people that wanted to have some sort of a violent end to this five- or six-day demonstration.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
And by people, do you mean the protesters?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, this would be my speculation hearing from there, whether it was protesters or if it was in fact agents provocateurs that you’ve gone over here that wanted to have some sort of a violent clash with police. Because for the entire week I was there, there was no violence being directed towards the police. And so it just seemed, from my friends that I had discussed this with, it didn’t fit in line with the goals or reasons for any of the people I knew that were there.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Did you disclose the identity of these friends to Commission Counsel during your interview
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Have they been -- do you know if they’ve been interviewed by Commission Counsel?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I have no idea.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
How did you come to be interviewed by Commission Counsel?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think we had a gathering of anybody that was a witness to the Ambassador Bridge demonstration in order to offer a written statement of their own witness testimony of what they saw for the five or six days, or however many days any of those people were there.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
When did that happen? Do you recall?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Some time in the summertime, I believe. Late summer, perhaps.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Jennifer King, counsel for the City of Windsor. We have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Antoine D’Ailly for Citizens for Freedom. We’ll cede our time to counsel for Mr. Leschied.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Cede to whom?
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
His lawyer.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, okay. Thank you. City of Ottawa.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Anne Tardif, City of Ottawa. We have no questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Nikolas De Stefano for former Chief Sloly. We have no questions. Thanks.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OPP.
Jinan Kubursi, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Commissioner, this is Jinian Kubursi for the OPP. I have no questions for Mr. Leschied. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Convoy Organizers.
Eva Chipiuk, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon. Eva Chipuik for the Convoy Protestors, and we have no questions for this witness.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So it’s Mr. Leschied’s counsel. Go ahead.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Thank you, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. LANI ROUILLARD
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Mr. Leschied, it’s my understanding that you began attending protests when some of these mandates were laid down by the government. Do you know approximately when that was?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
When I began attending or when the mandates began?
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
When you started attending protests.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I believe it would be in 2021.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And how many, approximately? Can you tell me some details about the protests that you went to in the Windsor area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Several of the rallies at the Great Canadian Flag at the end of Oleta Avenue and Riverside Drive. One of the rallies in front of the Health Unit on Oleta Avenue and, you know, various fundraisers that were being held to support people who had, you know, suffered economic consequences during the past couple years.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
And would you say that the theme of these protests was usually the same?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, some of the fundraisers might have been geared towards something specific, but generally it was to create awareness or give other people the opportunity to have their voices heard or gather with other people that maybe were sympathetic to some of the adverse effects that they had been experiencing over that last couple years.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
And can you just expand on that? What are some of the things that people were protesting about or gathering about?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Well, certainly, you know, I have friends in, you know, professions of nursing or firefighting that had lost their jobs to these mandates. Several small business owners who had been pushed to the brink of bankruptcy because they were no longer able to conduct business due to the mandates that had been passed down from federal or provincial politicians.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
So almost similar to trade stopping on the bridge, then, some people were claiming that their economic well-being had been cut off because the mandates?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Certainly I would be there to support individuals that I knew who were negatively impacted over the last couple years.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
So there was a financial element to it as well for some of these people.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Oh, absolutely. There was a grave financial impact to several people that I know in small businesses and other lines of work.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Now, I noticed that Windsor hosted some protests, if you want to call them that, gatherings and they had some high media profiles there. I understand that Chris Sky was there on August 28th, 2021. Approximately how many people attended that, do you think? Just your approximate.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I’d guess somewhere between maybe 1,500 to 2,000, perhaps.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Was it well publicized?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
From the -- from the standpoint of like social media or are we talking legacy media?
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Just social media because it wouldn’t be on the mainstream; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct. Yeah, it would be -- it would be shared around the various social media platforms.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And is that the same way that the protest on, I believe it was, September 18th, 2021, there were about 1,000 silent first responders? Was that the same type of deal? Was it promoted the same way?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yeah. Yeah, I would say it was promoted on social media. It was at the same place. And there -- there would likely be 1,000 or so other protestors or gatherers to support the silent protest that the EMS and Windsor fire department were conducting.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
So if I was not from Windsor and I was just taking a walk that day touring the town, if I went by, say, the Chris Sky protest or I went past the 1,000 protestors for the first responders, would I pick up what it was about?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
If you -- if you stuck around, I guess, to listen to the various speakers that would be giving their -- giving their speeches those particular days.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. So do you believe that the Mayor was aware that these speeches were going on when Chris Sky was in town or when the 1,000 protestors came out to support the first responders?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure where you’re going with this, the Mayor whether he knew about Chris Sky.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Yeah, I’m looking -- sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could be helped to understand how this is going to help the Commission.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
I’m trying to establish the level of communication between the Mayor and these protests over time such to the point that it culminated in the bridge being blocked.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure that helps the Commission, but go ahead.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. So let me go with a more direct line here. Did the Mayor come out to any of the protests that you were present at to try to understand why people were gathering?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And did the protestors ever each out, to your knowledge, to the Mayor to communicate and say this is why we’re unhappy?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I’d be speculating, but yeah, I believe there was some people who had written emails or made social media posts to the Mayor, Drew Dilkens, of Windsor at the time.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And that would be in line, then, with the municipal policy on complaints. So then the protestors did bring the complaint to the Mayor. Is that correct?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are you giving evidence about what the municipal ---
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
No.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I mean, I don’t know that there’s any evidence about this.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
No, I’m trying to understand, yeah, if the protestors had reached out to the Mayor to clearly communicate what their ambition was through the protest, if he was aware of that.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, and he said -- and he said he was speculating and then ---
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you said something about the complaint process, which is what I was curious about. There’s -- I don’t believe there’s evidence about that.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
No, just to make sure the protestors acted fairly in trying to resolve the complaint first with the Mayor, with the town before they set up their protests.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It might help if you establish they’re the same protestors that were doing it, which may well be, but I don’t know.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
So the group that was participating in these protests, the three that we had discussed, there was Chris Sky, the silent responders, and then by the flag, were those all the same group? Were they just kind of growing? Was it the community of Windsor?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, there was various groups that were -- that were helping to organize these events and bring in different speakers. Yeah, largely the same -- same people were -- were organizing or having these gatherings.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. So I’m going to take you forward now to the night of February 7th, which is, I believe, the first night of the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge; correct?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Correct. Yeah.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. So when you say that this was a group that was, you know, growing through time and there were familiar faces there, did you recognize any of the people that initially blocked the road where you were ---
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I never ---
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
--- to the Ambassador Bridge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I had never seen them before.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And what would you say -- like were there emergency lanes that were left open?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Throughout the week or on this particular February 7th?
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Just on this one night. Were there emergency lanes when the blockade was originally put down?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So the original blockade that I was witness to was at Gerardo where the vehicles had straddled Huron Church. I don’t know that I would say particular lanes were open. I can attest that I saw one truck driver, who had suggested to some protesters that he was diabetic and he needed to move through the traffic in order to get his medication or whatever it was that he needed, and the protesters moved their vehicles to allow him to pass through the southbound Huron Church area.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. During the first night of the protest, did you see the police put down any jersey barriers, like the concrete barriers, or obstruct any lanes?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
There was no jersey barriers on that first night, no. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. And did they obstruct or close down any lanes?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
They definitely secured several areas around the perimeter with police vehicles. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. And what would you say that the ratio was between police and protesters the first night?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
By the end of the evening, there was in my estimation substantially more police personnel there than there was protesters. MS. LANI ROUILLARD So granted that, you know, according to previous counsels' questions, there were auto plant shutdowns, this is the busiest border crossing in North America, it's a vital crossing of the border, and it controls the trade for millions of dollars in our country back and forth, do you think the police were capable of shutting this down on night number one?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I believe if they would've have chosen, if that was their objective on night number one, certainly the few vehicles at Girardot and the dozen or so protesters that would've been there when I left, I believe they could've shut that down if that was the intention. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay, thank you. And when you were at the bridge, and I'm just going to speak generally about that week, the days that you were there, of course, what kind of an environment was it? How did you feel there?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It was just a peaceful gathering, music, food being shared. Very cordial. MS. LANI ROUILLARD And you said you weren't there during the daytime, so that's fine, but when you were there in the evening did you see any families?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not in the evening times, no. MS. LANI ROUILLARD How did you know that families were there in the daytime?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Well, I mean, I had other friends that had either gone during the day times or shared pictures and videos of, you know, children playing soccer or, you know, having a festive atmosphere with children and families during the day time hours. MS. LANI ROUILLARD So if you were there in the evening, when the children weren't there, did you ever witness anybody trying to use or threatening to use a child as a human shield?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. No, I didn't see that. MS. LANI ROUILLARD And did you witness any acts of vandalism, looting or disorderly conduct by the protesters?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. No, no. Quite the contrary. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Did you see any illegal weapons?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Did you see any registered weapons?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Did you witness any acts of violence?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Was there ever a time that you felt unsafe while you were at the bridge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Never. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Did you feel like you were being surveilled or watched?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, it was pretty clear with the -- there was drones that were circulating overhead, and some of the law enforcement personnel there would have cameras or smartphones I guess scanning around the area to gather their own Intelligence I can imagine. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Were you one of the people impacted with your bank account? Was your bank account frozen?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So I lost access to my bank account on February 18th. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay, tell me about that. What happened exactly?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So I just -- I had gone to my bank to deposit a cheque from my business that I had written to myself, and upon trying to use the ATM I got a -- an error message or a message that it was not going to allow me access into my bank account. I tried a second ATM machine and got the same error message. I tried my online banking when I got home via my computer and continued to get messages that were not allowing me to access my own bank account. MS. LANI ROUILLARD And when did that change? How long did it last for?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
So I was able to access my account I believe on the following Tuesday, which would be after the family day holiday weekend. MS. LANI ROUILLARD So is that a period of about five days, then?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
About four days, give or take. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Four days? Okay. Did you ever find out why?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. Thank you. And just a follow-up question from a previous counsel. Do you need to ask permission to park at a mall in Ontario in the parking lot?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Not that I'm aware of. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay, thank you. So I'd like to go and revisit some earlier testimony from Inspector Dana Earley, and this is testimony, I believe it was earlier today or was it yesterday, and we've been talking about an exclusion zone or essentially an area that was controlled by the police. Are you familiar with that area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Yes. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. And let's just define it. What did they mean by that, just so we can get them on the record? What was the exclusion zone or the controlled area?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I believe the controlled area was at the southern border where Tecumseh Road and Huron Church Avenue intersect. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. And could we please play a video, and the code on it is CFF6X014, and it's a multi-media file. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jinan Kubursi, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Excuse me, Commissioner. I'm sorry to interrupt. It's Jinan Kubursi, counsel for the OPP. Now, seeing that it is CFF14, this was a video that was provided to us over the lunchbreak. We only had an opportunity to view it once Mr. Leschied had already started his evidence. We have no context for it. We see in his witness summary that he indicates that he did not attend the protest starting on the -- February 12th with the action, so I just wonder how it is that this witness has any connection to this video or can speak to it. So that's a concern and I'd like your views.
(Off mic)
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you can help us on why this video is being played for this witness. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Because I would like to define where the the exclusion zone was, and how the crowd was behaving, how the police were interacting.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you've --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD And actually ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD --- I did receive 2,000 pages of disclosure about 24 hours ago, so this was the one thing that we asked that be submitted. I did provide it to counsel.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you could start by asking him how he knew what the exclusion zone was and go into that, but I'm not sure showing a video is going to assist. What's the date of this video? And we don't know who took it, and it's obviously during a period he wasn't there. So I'm not sure how that can all be done. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Well, I think it's identifiable to this incident, and I believe it provides geographical information that perhaps could contradict previous testimony.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I'm not sure. We don't -- do we know when this video was taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was -- m'hm. Sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And -- so when was it taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was taken on the 13th.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you could start by asking him if he was there on the 13th when this video was taken. MS. LANI ROUILLARD He was not, no.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think the video should've been put to someone who could speak to it. MS. LANI ROUILLARD The video -- the thing is that there was double the evidence sent out the other night, so we went through it all, and this was the response to the one -- to the thousand, well, two thousand pages I received. Because it puts the exclusion zone into context and it contradicts previous testimony.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, but you are counsel to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- gentleman, you're not a party. MS. LANI ROUILLARD No.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I'm having some trouble with this. So I'm sorry, you can ask how he knows the exclusive -- the exclusion --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- zone and he can explain what it is, but I'm not going to allow the video to go to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. Tell us about the perimeter. When you did a perimeter walk around, what -- tell me what you saw? The police earlier -- I’m going to clarify this first. The police earlier had stated that they were clearing certain areas, and there were areas that were under their control. And the question I have, and the reason I want this video for it, is because I want to know, is the corner, the southeast corner of Tecumseh and Huron Church Road part of the exclusion area, to your knowledge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
To my knowledge, the exclusion zone ended at the intersection of Huron Church and Tecumseh Road East.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And did you see police -- and was there any footage, that you’re aware of, that showed violence outside where the police were tackling people outside the exclusion zone?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
Again, I wasn’t there. I wasn’t there on the days of Saturday and Sunday when this -- when the police were putting an end to the demonstration.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
M’hm. Okay.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
But I believe there was videos of these arrests taking place in areas in the general vicinity.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. And to your knowledge then, the southeast corner where the gas station is, I believe it’s a Shell, that is not included in the area they said was under control?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I believe they were controlling up to Tecumseh Road and pushing protestors onto the other side of Tecumseh Road outside of the exclusion zone.
Lani Rouillard, Counsel (Paul Leschied)
Okay. Those are my questions, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
Allison McMahon, Counsel (POEC)
No, there’s no re- examination. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just -- I’m just trying to understand. You say you know the exclusion zone. How do you know that?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I would be saying I know it based on previous testimony that’s been given yesterday perhaps.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don’t know, you just listened to the testimony yesterday?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I guess the exclusion zone was never something that I was told when I was there at the event. I’m just basing it on where I saw the police had their barricades set up and the general area around the entire demonstration.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you didn’t really know? You’re just speculating?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
It would have been something I would have discovered after the demonstration was over.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
From listening to the testimony here?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
From listening to the testimony here, and perhaps videos on social media that occurred after I was no longer participating and attending the demonstration.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There were social medias educating you on the exclusion zones?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I think that when you saw, like, video assessment of the end on the Saturday and Sunday, they were basically showing where protestors were being pushed out of their area that was going to be secured for them to be able to reopen Huron Church Avenue to truck traffic onto the bridge.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then just a question, you were there for a few days, evenings rather. Were -- is it news to you, or did you only find out the day that there were plants shutting down and people getting laid off because of the bridge?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
No, I knew that there was negative impacts to businesses in the Windsor and greater areas beyond Windsor as a result of the blockage at the Ambassador Bridge.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that didn’t concern you?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I had been concerned over the past couple of years of the impacts that were happening to our businesses from a whole bunch of different -- for a whole bunch of different reasons.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So more impact was not a concern to you?
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
I mean, I’m concerned for anybody’s businesses that are negatively impacted. But to gauge whether one is more severe than another, that wasn’t something that I really ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Paul Leschied (Convoy participants, Windsor)
--- considered.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. You’re free to go. I think we’ll take the morning break now. Thank you, counsel, for your assistance. So we’ll take the morning break. Or the afternoon break. I keep saying the morning break. I’m sorry. Obviously I only work half days. So we’ll come back in 15 minutes.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 3:43 p.m.
Upon resuming at 4:05 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order, à l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission Reprend. Mr. Van Huigenbos.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Van Huigenbos, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Marco Van Huigenbos. M-A-R-C-O V-A-N H-U-I-G-E-N-B-O-S.
COUNCILLOR MARCO Van HUGENBOS, Sworn
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
For the record, Alexandra Heine, Commission Counsel. Mr. Commissioner, the first thing I’d like to do is pass over to my friend, Martin Rejman, who is Mr. Van Huigenbos’ lawyer, who has an objection to make.
STATEMENT BY MR. MARTIN REJMAN
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Martin Rejman, for the record. Mr. Van Huigenbos has recently been charged in relationship -- in relation to matters that he may be asked questions about in these proceedings, namely the events in Coutts, Alberta, that took place between January 29th and February 15th of this year, 2022. On Friday, November 4th, 2022, Mr. Van Huigenbos elected to be tried by a jury of peers. Mr. Van Huigenbos was summoned to testify this afternoon. His testimony is compelled and subject nationwide publication. Mr. Van Huigenbos invokes the protection afforded to him under the Canada Evidence Act, specifically Section 5.2, as well as the related provisions of the Alberta Evidence Act to protect his interests against any self-incrimination. He also benefits from and seeks the protection of Section 13 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in his anticipated testimony. For the record, he objects to answer each and every question on the grounds that his answers may incriminate him or may/or could be used to establish any liability in the criminal or civil proceedings. He is compelled to provide answers, and we can proceed with the questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Go ahead.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. ALEXANDRA HEINE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. Clerk, I’ll start with asking you to pull up Mr. Van Huigenbos’ Statement of Anticipated Evidence, which is SAE00000003. So this is the Statement of Anticipated Evidence that we sent you a few months ago for your review; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And have you had a chance to review this statement?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you like to make any amendments to it?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So, Mr. Huigenbos, you’re originally from Holland; is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when did you move to Canada?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
In April of 1996.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you currently live in Fort Macleod in Alberta; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what do you do for a living?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I’m sales. I’m an owner in South Country Doors and my role there is to run the business and as sales manager.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so you were a City Councillor for Fort Macleod of the Freedom Convoy protests in January and February 2022; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct, and I still am.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I understand that you participated in the protest activities that occurred in Coutts, Alberta; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
In your Statement of Anticipated Evidence, you said that the protest commenced as a slow-roll convoy on January 29th and that you joined on that day; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What motivated you to join?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The provincial mandates the prior years and the federal border mandate as the cherry on the top that broke the camel’s back in regards to the residents of Alberta and their views on Covid, and that there was so much frustration that we expressed that through slow rolls and similar activities.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
When you “the border mandates”, you mean the trucker vaccination requirements?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And different slow rolls converged in Lethbridge, I understand, on January 29th and you were planning on driving from there to Coutts; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes, there was a staging area at the Flying J and a smaller convoy or individuals convoys came from all parts of Southern Alberta and possibly further.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so you met up with this convoy in Lethbridge in your own vehicle?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
That was a semi truck, pick-up truck?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That was a pick- up truck.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you also said in your Statement of Anticipated Evidence that participants generally understood through social media posts that the plan was to converge on Highway 4 and then drive down to Coutts. And which social media posts were you specially talking about?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I was aware of a social media page that was being shared on Facebook.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up ALB00001677. And so just by way of background, this is an email exchanged dated January 26th between a CBSA official and a Government of Alberta official. Mr. Clerk, can we just scroll down a little bit. That -- a little bit more -- perfect. And so Mr. McAuley from the Government of Alberta says that the CBSA -- to the CBSA official that there is online activity regarding a January 29th convoy to Coutts associated with the broader trucker protesters, understanding that that means the convoy to Ottawa, and he links a website entitled “Freedom Fighter Nation” and a Facebook group for the “Lethbridge Freedom Central”; do you see that there?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to learn about the convoy through either of these websites?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, I was made aware of it through individuals I knew sharing it on Facebook. I was not aware -- this is the first time I see “Freedom Fighter Nation”. But the “Freedom Convoy” and “Freedom Lethbridge” is - - I might have seen it through that or through somebody sharing that information.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And if we can just scroll down to page 2, I’m just going to show you a flyer, and this was shared by, I believe, Lethbridge Freedom Central. So when you were seeing some of your friends sharing on Facebook about this event, were you seeing this flyer?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, this is the first time I’ve seen this one, but I imagine there was different versions out there.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was it your understanding that the plan was just to slow roll down to Coutts from Lethbridge and then go home, or was the plan always to blockade the port of entry?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There was -- the slow roll was definitely the focus but, I believe, through the accumulation of -- I believe the previous slide had 5,000 vehicles, or whatever the amount was, and we knew it would result in a logistical nightmare, and that may have been the intentions, to create an inconvenience.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So when you say you knew when there were 5,000 vehicles, how were you aware that there were 5,000 vehicles on the highway?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So I go back to the previous slide that was the report from CBSA and the RCMP that speaks to the amount. I’m just going to use whatever that amount was.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I think, for the record, actually, the CBSA, in their Institutional Report, said there were 1,000 vehicles.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Sorry, 1,000 vehicles.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, thank you. And we’re going to stay on this document, Mr. Clerk, if we could just go down to page 3. So this is a flyer that was posted on one of the websites linked by the CBSA official, and it says: "Lockdown Coutts border. Trucks and vehicles all over Alberta planning to head for Coutts, AB, starting January 29 and staying there until all mandates and restrictions are lifted." Do you see that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I do.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
It also says: "Calling all semis, trucks, SUVs, cars! Meeting point: Flying J, Lethbridge…" -- which you referenced earlier -- "…5:00 a.m. Border shutdown! On this day the Albertans hold the line to take back our given freedoms. Do not budge. Do not move. Do not surrender." Did you ever see this flyer?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This is the first time I’ve seen this.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So was it your personal intention to block the border and not give up until all the mandates and restrictions were lifted as is stated in this flyer?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was never my intention to block the border. It was always our intention to create an inconvenience at the border in the afternoon of January the 29th.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you would agree, based on this flyer, that it was some people’s intention at least?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Based on this flyer, I could see that there were people who would have these intentions.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you drove down to Coutts on January 29th, and because this is -- you’re the first protester -- or, sorry, the first witness to speak to Coutts and not everyone, like us, is from Alberta, were just going to pull up the Coutts protest map, which is an interactive map, and I’m just going to show, for the public and the Commissioner’s benefit, the route from Lethbridge down Highway 4, all the way to Coutts. So do you see that there?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And this is the route that you took?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes, other than I wouldn’t have started at “A”; I would have started in Fort Macleod.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you converged in Lethbridge and then the general convoy drove down to Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so we expect to hear evidence from the Mayor of Coutts that he observed the RCMP escorting the convoy to the eventual location of the blockade, the intersection with Highway 500, 1.3 kilometres before the border crossing; would you agree with that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
If that’s what happened, I would agree with that. I was not at the front of the convoy so I did not see the RCMP escort us.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you’re not aware that the RCMP was escorting the convoy at all?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I was aware of the presence of RCMP because they were there. You know, the traffic was heading south and occasionally we’d see RCMP fly by, or RCMP going north, or -- so the presence of RCMP was noted but I was not aware we received an escort to the border.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if, Mr. Clerk, we could then click on “Coutts U-turn” and unclick “directions”, thank you. And then we’ll just Zoom into Coutts, so just for the benefit of the public, Commissioner, just to see sort of what the Coutts Village and the port of entry look like. So I understand that some vehicles, when they got down to Coutts -- and if we could just zoom in a little bit more -- made a U-turn at the point that’s the blue point on the corner of Highway 500 and Highway 4; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. That is the intersection that you can access the hamlet or village of Coutts, and being the last major intersection before the CBSA. And that’s where the convoy was turned around to position it back northward.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So some vehicles did a U-turn and drove back out, but others, I understand, stayed in Coutts and parked there; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That intersection became very busy as the convoy neared Coutts coming around the corner here, after the railroad tracks. In between the highways there is a scale house, like, there's a commercial inspection facility.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say a scale house, you mean to weigh trucks that are going through the port of entry; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct, and you know, trucks going south and trucks coming north.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
They opened the scale further slowing and restricting traffic, which in and of itself, caused a -- quite the backup. But after the scale, individuals could turn around and further up, once they were back in Milk River or close to it, they could rejoin the convoy and continue to loop back and forth. But there was also a staging area -- not staging -- it became a staging area of just people watching this event from the -- in the ditches. You know, it was a -- there was a lot of people in one location, so there was no designated area, but it was a lot of vehicles and a lot of trucks everywhere.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And the staging area that you referenced, is that sort of on or around the yellow point, which I understand designates where the protestors were predominately located?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That would be the green points.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The green points? So that’s the Smuggler's Saloon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. And behind the Smuggler's is a very unofficial truck stop, but it's just a wide-open gravel parking lot.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And for the benefit of everyone here, could you just describe where some of the semi trucks that were part of the convoy ended up in relation to the yellow and green points, so between sort of where the -- I guess that’s the northbound lane and the Smuggler's Saloon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
At what particular time?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
When -- on January 29th. We're still on January 29th.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
During the movement of traffic or after traffic came?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
After traffic had arrived.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Well, there was -- I believe the backup was halfway to Milk River on both sides. Like, Saturday night, a lot of the thousand hadn’t left. You know, these were semis and they stayed for the night, due to the backup created by the border -- or not the border, sorry -- the intersection and everything around the intersection.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so were there semis, pickups, sort of piled up right there that was causing this traffic jam from Coutts to Milk River?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What did that look like?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It looked like semis and semis parked through the intersection, preventing the flow of traffic.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And where were you at this time?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I was -- I would say in the vicinity of the blue, the yellow, the green. I was in the area.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you sort of parked your pickup truck and you were wandering on foot or were you in your vehicle, stopped?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
My pickups were initially in the parking lot on the green, like, behind the green dot.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to move forward then to January 31st. So by January 31st, I understand that some vehicles had left Coutts and either had returned home or gone further up Highway 4. And I'm referring - - or I'm getting this information from the CBSA Institutional Report that said that there were 176 vehicles sort of left around that time. Does that accord with your recollection?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yeah, possibly. Yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So the rest of the 1,000 vehicles had pretty much gone, gone home?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. It was never the intention to remain.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Well, right, but we did establish earlier that it might have been some people's intentions to remain, some of those people making up the 176 vehicles ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- that stayed behind. Right. So Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up PBS.CAN00002473? And so this is an email from the Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki, to the Minister of Public Safety, Marco Mendicino; the Deputy Minister of Public Safety at the time was Rob Stewart; and the President of the CBSA, who at the time, was John Ossowski.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you slow down for -- -
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, I apologize.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the interpreters?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Commissioner. And the date here is January 31st. Do you see that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And if we just scroll down a little bit, a little bit more -- so at the bottom of the page, you see that point right there that says, "Highway 4", so that’s the third point down under "Current Status". So it says: "Highway 4 to and from the Canadian side of the border crossing at Coutts, Alberta, remains completely blocked. The blockade, primarily the semi truck blocking the northbound lane with smaller truck reinforcements, is being controlled by splinter groups. The organizers of the Coutts protest are distancing themselves from the splinter groups." She then said that: "The RCMP's consultative conflict management group which is the RCMP's equivalent of a police liaison team continues to engage protest participants; however, the engagement from the organizers has diminished and the splinter groups have not been receptive." Do you see that there?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so at this point, had you established yourself as a spokesperson for the protesters? This is on January 31st.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know who she's talking about when she says "organizers"?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe the individuals that would have built the posts, the two previous pages that organized the slow roll and invited people to participate in this protest.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
That’s your previous pages meaning that email that we saw with the two links to the website and the Facebook group; is that what you mean?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. Yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So Lethbridge Freedom Central and the other website? So at this point, you -- I understand that you had communications with the police and specifically, CCMG officers later on? And we'll get to that in a minute, but at this point, on January 31st, had you had any contact with the RCMP's CM -- CCMG officers?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Not that I'm aware of, but it might have been in passing without any -- outside of any official goal. You know, we were never hiding. The RCMP had full ability to walk through our midst and to drive around and et cetera, et cetera. It wasn’t -- you know, we didn’t blockade the RCMP from engaging with us.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But it wasn’t as though you were engaging with the RCMP on behalf of the protesters?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No. There was very little structure, being so organic of a protest. We all converged as individuals and possibly as groups, smaller groups from different municipalities to this location, and from there, it speaks to splinter groups, but there was no groups that were previously engaged in anything that were part of this. It was - - when I say groups, it would be, you know, six people came from the town of Coaldale and they're familiar with each other, and they drove in a convoy together, so they're going to band with each other if they're all sitting with individuals they don’t know, right? You stick to your own until you become familiar with each other.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So because it was, like, an organic protest, sort of a grass roots movement with different people from all over Alberta, when she says "splinter groups", you also don’t know what she's referring to?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So when I think splinter groups, I think we're talking more in different positions, different views on where we were at that time in regards to the border or the Highway was blockaded by multiple trucks, not just one. They may have had the perception that if one truck moved, traffic could flow, but essentially, it was a combination of vehicles that created the inconvenience at that intersection.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let's then move to the next day, which is February 1st, and also February 2nd. So at this point, had the RCMP set up checkpoints on Highway 4 as well as Highway 500, which is the highway that we saw earlier with the map?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I don't believe the checkpoints were set up at that time.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know when the RCMP set up those checkpoints?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe they set up the checkpoints later in the day on February the 1st.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Later in the day on February 1st?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes, traffic was able to free flow back and forth. You know, people came, people left on the Sunday, which is the ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The 30th.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- 30th -- 31st.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Sorry, I believe they didn't -- they set up checkpoints on the -- later in the day on the 31st, not the 1st.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
On the Monday.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. Clerk, I'll just ask that you zoom out on this map, just so that everyone can see when we say checkpoints, we're referring to the points in red. Mr. Van Huigenbos, does this accord with your recollection of where the checkpoints established by the RCMP were?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This is some. There was more. Every dirt road leading to Highway 4 would have had a checkpoint. So these may be the -- you know, the majority of the gravel roads, but there were more entrances and exits that were being monitored by the RCMP or stakeholders in this so.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So there were some protestors still in Coutts. And if we zoom in, Mr. Clerk, to the point at the top near Milk River where there's a yellow and a red. So this is a checkpoint by the RCMP in red. Were you ever aware of this checkpoint?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So the red became a -- so these checkpoints were all established when this red checkpoint on the highway was created, because the traffic - - the most convenient way to Coutts was on the highway going, you know, the speed limit, 110 kilometres an hour. But if you were to hit that checkpoint, any Albertan from this area would take a side road and take five minutes and make their way to Coutts through a back road, et cetera. That's when all the additional checkpoints in the previous slide were established. So the goal of this red checkpoint was to prevent the Coutts blockade from being built up with more trucks and more protestors.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it was your recollection that this was sort of one of the first or the main checkpoints that was established?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe they would have all been established at the same time. There would have been an RCMP objective to prevent the public from having easy access to Coutts.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
What about one of the main checkpoints?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It is definitely the main checkpoint.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
It is the main checkpoint?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And you just alluded to this, but this checkpoint had the effect of having sort of a buildup of traffic that led to a second location of protestors, which is identified by the yellow point. If you could please sort of walk us through how that happened and what that looked like from your perspective?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So as previously mentioned, the slow roll and its possible intentions by different participants of the slow roll and protest resulted in the blockade. And once the weekend was over and it was still there, it -- I'm not -- I wouldn't say it hit the news right away, but it became, through social media platform, through alternative media, and possibly even through MSM, it became something newsworthy, and it attracted individuals -- it attracted individuals. And so these individuals would come to Coutts and, essentially, bolster the ranks of the protestors, et cetera. It just grew and grew. The RCMP, their intentions was to prevent this. As a result, this Milk River blockade is what it's called, or Milk River protest was formed. And the amount of individuals that converge on this sites was initially vehicles from the surrounding areas within an hour or two, parked in their trucks, parked in their cars, parked in their whatever they were using to get there, all pointing south, looking to get to Coutts with the RCMP getting in the way of their ability to do that. Very quickly, camp was set up and it became something similar to Coutts, but in support of Coutts. You know, it was always the intention to get to Coutts; right? That was their goal.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So there's a Milk River protest, Milk River blockade around that checkpoint, which is checkpoint 10, for the record, and there was a secondary location in Coutts, but the idea is that the Milk River protestors were there because they wanted to get to Coutts to join ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you were personally located in Coutts at this time; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I have the ability to -- no, at that time, until this was established, I was in Coutts. Correct, yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so we're still on February 1st and 2nd. I understand, and you'll provide more clarity on this, that some protestors got around checkpoint 10 using either tractors or other vehicles to get to Coutts and this led to an enforcement effort by the RCMP. Could you please describe what that looked like, what that event was from your point of view?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So the events were the enforcement effort commenced on the 1st, on Tuesday in Coutts. Being organic in nature, the trucks were on the highway on both lanes, going north and south, but in that particular area, the lanes were actually facing east and west. If you want to go back to that slide, I could explain that and ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sure. Yeah, Mr. Clerk, we could go down to -- back down to Coutts.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Right. So right around the commercial inspection site, you can see the highway here is actually east to west for all of a mile, from the intersection, from the yellow bold point to about the Welcome to Alberta sign. At that time, that highway, both lanes, both directions was full of motorized vehicles, anything from tractor trailers, to trucks, to whatever it was on the highway. And the RCMP staged close to the railroad with I would say a hundred officers and started to commence enforcement in the form of knocking on the vehicles that the truckers or the protestors were in their vehicles and asking them to leave or face arrest. So one by one, they -- it was a pretty obvious decision for most. You know, it was time to leave. They were able to work their way down one lane, truck by truck, without any ability to -- without us -- giving us any ability to respond or do anything about it; right? We were watching it from our vehicles, and we seen the RCMP come closer. This was all being streamed on many social media platforms, Facebook, Tik Tok, Telegram and others. So you have these individuals at the Milk River blockade who are looking to get to Coutts, who have been -- and we're talking it was a balmy weekend. You know, 10 degrees into January, but Monday morning, the weather turned sour, and it was minus 30 that first week. So you're talking about individuals who are looking to get to Coutts, who are in their -- camped out in their vehicles in extreme temperatures. They are seeing enforcement action -- and a lot of these individuals were farmers, like, there was a lot of equipment there. These were neighbours. These were people we knew or were acquaintances to others at Coutts since the 29th. So they see this happening on their screens. And without us being aware -- we seen the video after -- they proceeded to essentially hit the ditch or go around the police barricade, which was on -- I believe it was parked on the pavement, and they had been civil in regards to obeying that blockade, but once they seen the RCMP enforcing in Coutts, obviously, it starts with one or two and the rest followed. But most of that blockade was able to traverse that -- most of -- sorry, most of the supporters were able to traverse the blockade and make their way down the highway, both lanes, toward Coutts. And there was -- I don't know if there is videos as evidence, but there was multiple videos shared of that event as well.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say the Milk River protestors could see the enforcement action that the RCMP was doing in Coutts, which prompted them to try and sort of go around the barricade to join up, you mean through social media; right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
M'hm.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
They didn't have line of -- -
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- sight themselves?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, no. No, there was no line of sight. It would have been they came to our assistance, essentially, at the term.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that's because the Milk River blockade was about 20 kilometres north of the Coutts port of entry; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so I understand that then on February 2nd this sort of all came to a head and there was a bit of a standoff you could call it between the protesters and the RCMP. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. So as -- I was in my truck driving around in this area of a highway that's heading east to west, just, you know, looking at the situation and thinking, you know, this will be over in hours, and all of a sudden we see through, and it was a blizzard, we see these trucks, and these pickups, and these tractors come through the blizzard from nowhere. And we were -- the protesters were able to coordinate a barricade. Instead of trucks on a highway that they could work one, two, three, we were able to form a barricade, essentially fence-to-fence, ditch-to-ditch, which now gave us the ability -- well, which gave us the ability to form a line and have a standoff with the RCMP.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what did that look like?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was a peaceful standoff. The RCMP and the protesters never came within I would say 50 metres of each other. So initially when the equipment rolled in the RCMP retreated because it was hectic. You know, tractors came in through the ditches, on the highway, and out of nowhere, it was a surprise to them as much as it was to us. I imagine they may have heard about it. As it -- as they blew the barricade in Milk River, they would've had 10 minutes more notice than we did through their official channels, but when it came in they retreated back to the sheriff busses and the bit of the mobile command they had set up on the highway, and I would say 20 minutes later they commenced a second effort with either the same amount or additional support. And on the first attempt, most people were in the saloon, it was cold, and a few people were just monitoring the situation. On the second attempt, the protesters came outside and we formed -- we stood in front of the equipment, we formed a line, and we sang Oh, Canada, and we just held a -- it was a face-off. It was at a point where this was where we would all be arrested and systematically removed or the alternative, which is what happened, and the RCMP retreated on their second attempt. And that's where the ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- enforcement action stopped.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And part of the resolution of this, I understand, is that two RCMP sergeants, I believe Sergeants Tellock (ph) and Switzer, who are CCMG officers, came to the Smuggler Saloon to speak with the protesters and see if they could sort of negotiate a resolution; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. So Greg and Troy, sorry I'm going to -- that's their first names, that's -- I'll stick to that because there was two groups. So there ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And just for clarity, when you say Greg and Troy you mean Greg Tellock and Troy Switzer.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. Right. They had been -- I believe they were part of the initial slow roll. You know, the RCMP was aware of the slow roll so they had officers and they had sent staff down to monitor the situation. So they had been there from the onset of the protest. Initially, the RCMP took the heavy handed approach regarding enforcement. The failure of that resulted in a direction from RCMP to -- toward more of a negotiation stance. And even that, they came in fairly heavy. They showed up in the saloon and they essentially ordered us off the highway, and that was met with a very decisive "no" by everybody involved.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And -- but you were still able to resolve, I understand, that you would keep one lane open in the northbound lanes and then one traffic lane open in the southbound lane. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So due to the situation on the ground and the enforcement action, we were aware the RCMP -- you know, our fight was never the RCMP. That was the enforcement. We were looking to get the attention of our province, the government. We had been trying unsuccessfully to do that for two years, or two years or eighteen months at that time. And obviously we knew the RCMP would respond and commence with enforcement and possibly communication. But the RCMP was never -- that was never -- when I say the struggle, that wasn't -- they were never part of that, they were automatically involved. So they came into the saloon, and we worked out an agreement, which also came from a position of we have to, I wouldn't say retreat, we have to work with the RCMP due to our position. That our position was based on how many trucks, how many people do we have, right, strength in numbers. Or, you know, if we have too bold of a position without the equipment and the trucks and the people to back it up the RCMP may enforce. If we open up some lanes, we go -- we're -- we look like a -- then we are a legal protest in the eyes of the -- in the view of the RCMP, and they may let us stay to fight. And when I say "fight", I, you know, I don't want to use that in a term other than we were there to fight another day. And that is what happened. I believe either late in the evening of the 1st or the morning of the 2nd, we, through communication with the RCMP, and obviously the concerns of the Village of Coutts by having most of their access restricted, we -- actually there were three things. There was something that happened before. There was unintended truckers that were blockaded behind our trucks that were looking to go south, reefers, and they had spent the weekend, and we had let them go because it was never ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You mean commercial vehicles that were not protesters?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
They were held on that highway behind the trucks that were blockading traffic; right?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
They were there. It's not like we gave -- and it's not like there was a sign in Lethbridge that said, "Future blockade. Please don't proceed down this highway." So there was unintended -- there was truckers that were unintentionally stuck behind us, and we -- that was never our intention, so we let them either turn around or go south. This would've been the Monday. This would have been before the enforcement action. We would've already cleared out the trucks.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So like January 31st?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Exactly. So that's -- I just wanted to make that note. It's not necessarily relevant, but it matters that we were never there to cause grief to unintended participants. Back to the lanes opening up. We were getting -- were in discussions with the residents, the school board, et cetera, to allow the busses free flow to allow traffic, you know, the residents in and out, all of that, plus we were in no position to hold the highway shut. So we opened up a lane on each side.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that from then that point forward you sort of became the main point of contact for the RCMP. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That was never in a -- that was never officially, you know, "you're the point of contact". I think that that comes back to more who I am, my character, my position as a town councillor, my ability to articulate well. All of that put me in a position where I was most I would say skilled, I've never been trained for this, but in this case most skilled to deal with the RCMP and any other conflict.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you say you had a good relationship with the RCMP officers that you spoke to?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The RCMP would attest to this, but we had a phenomenal working relationship. We agreed. We agreed on many things, and we disagreed on others, but we never stopped communicating.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And you texted, you called, was it through email? How did you communicate?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It would have been through text and call.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that some officers also came to the Smuggler Saloon, which had sort of been established by the headquarters by that point, to sort of do check-ins with you. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Most of the interaction happened away from the Smuggler Saloon.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
The in-person interaction.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The in-person interactions. I do know they -- I would look for them away from the saloon, but they always looked for me in the saloon, which I always knew it gave them the ability to walk through the saloon and make notes and check up on us without -- as a, you know, hitting two birds with one stone, they're coming to talk to me, but they're also checking out the situation inside the building. Which we never restricted them. We were never hiding anything. They stood around the fires with us, and you know, they were offered meals, et cetera. And I don't know what the protocol is, whether they declined or whether they accepted, but there was no official meeting point. It was very organic, and the best conversations happened on the side of the road; in the vehicle when it was colder, or on the back of the tailgate when it was warmer, so...
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I understand -- we’ll just touch on this very briefly -- that there was only one time where communications between you and the RCMP officers failed, and that was on February 12th when you were out of contact or you didn’t have cell service, and some excavators were damaged by the police by accident. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. So now we’re jumping ahead to the second week. The first week was definitely a struggle.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll come back to the first week.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Okay.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But just for the purpose of the excavator event, if you could just speak to that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yeah. So just a little bit of lead-up to the event. It was always a matter of position in regards to us and in regards to the RCMP. We had to respond to the RCMP in such a manner that they wouldn’t enforce or felt the need that all ability to resolve this situation through communication had failed, so they would enforce, but at the same time, maintain enough of a position to stay that eventually we got -- we caught the attention of the Alberta -- of the provincial government. And that was -- it was a tricky business to maintain that position where the one side wants to -- wants you off the highway yesterday, and we had to stay on that highway just long enough to possibly enter in -- not necessarily negotiations but to open up lines of communication with the provincial government. So we brought in trucks, we brought in tractors -- and when we say, “We,” people brought tractors. It was very organic. We never said no to anybody that wanted to come and support us who came from anywhere in southern Alberta -- or, sorry; Western Canada. Ottawa was obviously the initial draw and the event here was to support Ottawa. At the same time that Ottawa rolled -- or the Freedom Convoy rolled into Ottawa, we rolled into Coutts. But this was, for most people, a lot more accessible than Ottawa, for myself as well. So the excavators were, for us, a very symbolic thing.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just -- for those who don’t know what an excavator is, just describe what that is, briefly.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
A HIYO, it’s a piece of equipment that is used for earthwork; it’s called an excavator. So I imagine most people know what an excavator has ability to dig trenches, et cetera.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so there were a few, and they were flying flags, is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, that was the intention. So these excavators were positioned a couple of miles away from Coutts. And all it was, was a distraction; and it definitely became a distraction. But the intent was to catch the eye of the RCMP. We never could have imagined the actual response we got. So these pieces had to be hauled in individually, one at a time. So we got permission from the adjacent -- the property adjacent to the highway to do this on their property. And we slowly drove them in. Like, they got unloaded off the road and then they had to get walked in, and they probably -- they probably go about two kilometres an hour. It’s a very heavy piece of equipment. And over -- I believe on -- so the Friday would have been the -- sorry; we’re on the 12th, 11th. I believe the 10th, is that the Friday?
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
I believe so. And I think, just for the sake of time, maybe if we could fast forward a little bit ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Right.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- to the actual event.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So we brought in three excavators one by one, and when the first one showed up, I’m pretty sure it was noted; excavator on the side of the highway. When the second one showed up, the RCMP and the Province have notes that speak to no construction activity being in the vicinity and it being noted and them being very aware of two excavators on the side of the highway, you know, as to, “What’s going on here? Who’s doing this?” When the third one rolled in, it resulted in a very -- it resulted in a heavy response; 40 officers descended on that field and on those individuals operating those HIYOs, and they were ordered to retreat. I got the phone call. At that time I was actually in a meeting with some -- with individuals in Milk River, and I had taken -- I took the call, and, you know, they explained the situation and I had said, “Okay, well, you know, just hold them back. It’s never our intention -- there is no intentions here other than to, you know, cause a distraction, fly some flags.” So they retreated over the hill. There was a misunderstanding that they would be removed from the area fully. Unfortunately it took three days to bring them into the area, and the trucker, he has 13 hours a day to legally operate. He was not -- he did not have the ability to remove those. I had a family weekend planned for months prior and I had the ability to sneak away for 10 hours. And to get there I went through -- it’s called the Whiskey Gap, and it’s without service. So as I was rolling into this part of the country, just outside the Milk River blockade, I got a call from -- well, I think I sent Greg and Troy a text message because I knew they were off, like, they had two different groups of CCMDs, so Chris and Mark were on on Sunday, and Greg and Troy, you know, it was a frustrating day and there a lot of tension regarding the excavators, but it was resolved, in my mind. And I said, “Hey, have a good weekend, and see you next week,” is what I had said. And I got the call that, “The understanding was to move these excavators out of the area, and they are not gone.” And I had said, “Well, we can move them further, you know, but we can’t get them out of the area right away. It just isn’t possible.” I went into service, the call was dropped, and I got out of service, and my message -- I got a few messages. “Sorry, Marco, the decision was made. We’ve had to disable these protest...” ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that’s because the RCMP thought the excavators were ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was too big of a liability, in their mind.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Correct.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
You know, they looked at this from a we’re going to dig up the highway perspective.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
And I understand that those machines have the ability to do that, but that was never our intentions.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right, okay. And in the course of your action -- or your answer, sorry, you spoke a few times about engagement from the provincial government, and that’s something that you were looking for, is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe that’s something that we were all -- everybody was looking for, you know? If we look at the state of affairs -- and I’m going to speak to Alberta because that’s, you know, most of the Emergency Measures and the mandates were provincial, and each province dealt with it differently. But in my view, Alberta took a fairly heavy-handed approach, you know, for freedom-loving Albertans, and the worst part was the inconsistencies and the lies. The communication from the Province that we weren’t going to lockdown again, or open for summer, open for good, or, you know, Calgary Stampede 2021, Kenney was on the record saying, “We will never have a vaccine passport.” One month later, we have the RIP program, which is essentially the same thing. The worst part was the lies. The lies to the USP members, to Albertans who were involved politically and now, you know, we were being governed by a Emergency Committee; we were being governed by the Health Authority. We had no direct communication through the -- through our Westminster Parliamentary democracy.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. So I don’t mean to cut you off, but we do need to get to this document. So Mr. Clerk, it’s COU00000016. And while Mr. Clerk is pulling that up, this is a text message exchange between the Mayor of Coutts and Rajan Sawhney, who’s the Minister of Transport of Alberta. And I’ll just wait for that to go up. So if we go to page 9, a little bit further down. All right. So it says that “MP Motz” -- and I understand that to be Glen Motz, Member of Parliament, “Mayor” -- and then it’s redacted -- “and I” -- being the Mayor of Coutts, so the blue bubble are from the Mayor of Coutts: “...met with RCMP command...then paid a visit to the truckers for a few minutes.” And then he goes on to say: “Motz met with Marco up at the Milk River blockade. The message we are all pushing is clear the road enough to be breaking the law and protest all you want. Consistent messaging is very important. Still missing a provincial government voice.” So did you meet with MP Glen Motz in Milk River at some point?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you discuss federal mandates?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
We discussed -- absolutely we would have discussed federal mandates. Glen Motz is the MP for Medicine Hat and area. And I do -- I look at this message here, I think -- it says “…clear the road enough to be breaking…” or probably meant to be saying “not breaking” the law.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, I think that’s probably right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I don’t want to get Glen into any hot water here, but I believe that’s what he would have meant.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. So February 5th: “Still missing a provincial government voice.” Then we have an answer by the Minister of Transportation, Rajan Sawhney, who says: “Hi Jim! Are there [any] MLA’s out there?” And then, Mr. Clerk, if we could just scroll down? “Haven’t seen any although Grant says he has been off and on all week.” So I take this to mean Grant Hunter, who is an MLA in Alberta. Is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. Grant was there on the first Sunday, which is public knowledge. I don’t -- I’m not aware of him attending the protests on other occasions.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I’m not ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- sit down with him at all?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I did sit down with him in Milk River. Unofficially, obviously, because that’s what the previous text message speaks to. We had communication with individual MLAs, individual MPs, mainly opposition MPs; right? Alberta is mainly CPC.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And that was about the mandates?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That would have been about, on a provincial level, the provincial mandates in regards to the MLAs, and obviously the federal mandates, specifically the travel mandates and the border mandates, with the MPs.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And so I guess when I say you’re talking about mandates, was the idea that you were asking them whether they could do anything to sort of lift the mandates, which would have resulted in the protest resolving itself?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yeah. So we were looking for lifting the mandates, we were looking for communication to -- you know, a lot of people were looking for the mandates to be lifted. It’s 12:55 and the mandates are not lifted, and it’s 12:56 and they’re lifted. I always knew that was never a possibility. I know how government works and I understand that there would be a process and that there has to be a lot of things to happen and a plan in place, et cetera, you know, communicated to the public and through the health authorities to put us on a track to lifting the mandates. Unfortunately, those conversations never even got started.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
They never got started with?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
With anybody in an official capacity ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- that represented any level of government.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you spoke to members of the opposition, MLAs, but not anyone who was, like, for example, in Premier Kenney’s Cabinet? No one like that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. If you were to scroll down further in this, there is a conversation between the Mayor and Rajan Sawhney that speaks to the Mayor asking if she plans to come down to Coutts. And she mentions, “I’m working on it. I have to get permission from the RCMP,” which they would have got, “and the boss.”
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Now, when we say “the boss,” I’m pretty sure we all know we’re talking about Jason Kenney.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So that goes back to show you the situation we were dealing with in Alberta at this time, we were no longer -- we no longer had a voice as Albertans. We were dealing with a health authority that had emergency powers and a Premier who was obviously operating his Cabinet and his Caucus in the aspect of, “I’m the boss.”
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. The Minister of Transport never went down, so we know that. But if we could scroll down to page 11? The bottom of page 11. So this is on February 6th, which is the next day. And the Mayor of Coutts says to the Minister of Transportation: “I’m trying to find out who protestors spoke with and said what. Grant [said] it wasn’t him, very clear he has [no -- he means no mandate, as he clarifies in the next text] that would allow him to do that.” So it seems to suggest that someone else from the Provincial Government, other than Grant Hunter, had spoken to the protestors in an official capacity on February 6th. So you’re saying that did not happen?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There were a lot of individuals there that would have been involved in politics more than somebody who votes every four years. You know, they could have been involved in their CA boards, et cetera, you know, like myself, local -- municipal politician. So these individuals coming from different constituencies in the province would have direct connections to their MLAs. I’m not aware of all these conversations. So ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you yourself did not have ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I myself did not have any other conversations other than one phone call with the Transportation Minister, possibly two. I can’t remember if it was one or two.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, so you’re saying you did speak on the phone to Rajan Sawhney?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. But that’s not in relation to this discussion right here.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Oh, so what was that in relation to?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
She had -- she looked to get in contact with me, me, possibly others, but I ended up taking the call.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
In relation to the protests?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
In relation to the blockade.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what were your conversations about?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The conversations were as to what it was and what could be done, et cetera. And it was -- like I said, it was not in any official capacity. Obviously as Transportation Minister, she had the ability to do that. But we had -- I had looked for a meeting with officials.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Through the Minister?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Through the Minister. And when I say I, you know, we, as protestors.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But she reached out to you?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe it was shared that she was looking to get in contact with myself, and we connected.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
And I don’t know who relayed that message to me. That might have been through the Mayor of Fort McLeod. Right? Like, there’s -- once it became -- CBC made the connection that I was a local municipal councillor, obviously that was something in and of itself. But very quickly, they were looking to me as that individual to connect with.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you said you spoke to her on the phone on about two occasions. Do you recall the dates of those?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe it was only one. I’m trying to think which day it was. It would have been either the first or the second day we were in the saloon. And I believe we got the saloon on the 1st. So it would have been either the 1st or the 2nd of February.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever convey to her that you wanted the provincial mandates lifted in order for the protestors to then go home?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe that message would have been conveyed, but that was obviously a very -- that was a pretty obvious message. In general, that was why we were there, yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you conveyed that message. What was her response?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Well, she didn’t have the ability to speak to that; right? That still was a pick -- or an EMCC committee meeting.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did she say that she would speak to Premier Kenney in an unofficial capacity through unofficial channels or anything like that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I don’t remember the details of the conversation. I do remember it being more of an introduction call. And obviously introduction, you know, I don’t believe there was follow up calls. But ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, you said there were follow up ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, I don’t believe there were.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This is -- like, it just spoke to who she was, who I was, details of the blockade. But -- and the message we were looking to share with the province, demands, all of that, I wouldn’t say demands, just frustrations in general, and how can we move forward? But that never went anywhere. Like I said, I might have had a follow up conversation, but it would have never went anywhere.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You say that it never went anywhere, but Premier Kenney did make an announcement on February 8th that the Provincial Government was announcing a plan for a gradual easing of the pandemic related public health measures; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. And based on our response to his message, it was not the message we were looking for.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what was his message and what was the message you were looking for?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The message that Kenney gave was -- it was a phased approach with a lot of maybes. And there was no surety of anything in that message. It spoke to a lot of different aspects and there was a lot of different methods to back out of that phased approach, but it really -- it was something, because they had to address -- you know, there was pressure. Even though we weren’t communicating, there was pressure. Coutts did apply pressure to the Provincial Government.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
All right. And you said earlier that, you know, you understand that there’s a process that has to -- you know, governmental process for public health measures like these to be lifted, and that it would maybe take some time. So in your view, was it realistic for Premier Kenney to announce on February 8th, for example, that all mandates would be lifted the next day? Was that a realistic objective?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That’s not a realistic objective, but that’s on one side, and then there was his response, which was completely on the other side. So somewhere in the middle, there was the ability -- and this was not just exclusively Coutts. This was -- you know, you all -- the evidence is submitted to the slow rolls in Edmonton, to the protests of five to 10,000 in Calgary, the inconveniences on highways all over the province. Obviously the folks on Coutts, Ottawa, Emerson, Ambassador, Sarnia, et cetera. But Albertans were frustrated, and they were making it very aware to their government that they wanted to see change. So we were willing to have those discussions and to work on a realistic plan. Like, you know, I can't speak for everybody, but we wanted to, you know -- being involved in government for five going on six years, the message we had was let's work together to do what Albertans want. Unfortunately, somewhere that -- somewhere along the line, that message never got delivered or the message was delivered and the -- nothing ever came of it. And that -- in my mind, that's worse obviously.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So it's fair to say that you were looking for a stronger commitment from Jason Kenney and you -- Premier Kenney, apologies, and you didn't get one; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we're almost out of time here, so I'm just going to ask you some quick questions about the events of February 13th and 14th. So I understand that an RCMP tactical unit came in on February 13th, and there were also some arrests on that day in relation to guns and ammunition that were seized at a house in Coutts; is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And they arrested many people in relation to this. Did you know any of the individuals who were arrested for mischief and possession of a weapon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I know them in the capacity as attendees of the protest.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
You did not know them before?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And what about the individuals that were arrested for conspiracy to commit murder?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The same. I was -- I met them at Coutts.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And would you say that you spoke to them every day? How well did you know these individuals?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
One of the individuals, he would have been up early every day, and when I walked in, he was the biggest, friendliest giant ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- I know.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- are you talking about Chris Lysak?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So did you know that Chris Lysak was in a group called -- or was a fan of a group called Diagolon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever heard of that group before?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you're not a fan or a follower of Diagolon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever speak to Jeremy MacKenzie, who's one of the founders of Diagolon?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
And did you know that there were firearms amongst the protesters?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever heard of this plot to shoot RCMP officers, that they're being alleged to have, I guess, planned?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Were your bank accounts frozen when the Emergencies Act was invoked?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But I understand that you were recently arrested?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, I've never been arrested since Coutts, or during and since Coutts. I was summoned to come in and have my charges read off to me and a promise to appear.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So you've not -- you have been charged though?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I've been charged but I've never been arrested.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And that's for a mischief?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Mischief, yeah.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
So that was in relation to the Coutts' protest, but it was not -- it was recent and so it wasn't, like, an Emergency Act measure, I guess.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I just have about one minute left, so I'll just ask you to tell the Commissioner quickly what happened on the morning of February 15th. So how did the protest end after the arrests that we just discussed were finished?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So the decision was made on the morning on the 14th to leave. I had contact with media and I received a phone call from a reporter. She touched base with me daily. And she called me to the events -- she called me in regards to the events of the night of the 13th and the arrests, et cetera. So we were talking about what had happened, and the fairly heavy-handed approach that the RCMP initially took and how that was de-escalated, et cetera. And the question came in, "So what about the guns?" And I had to respond and said, "What guns?" Ten (10) minutes later, I knew what guns we were talking about. For me, it became very clear that this was no longer -- that every objective we were looking to achieve was no longer possible and that our message had been lost. And to distance ourselves from any -- and this has to be determined yet; right? These charges have not gone to court for these individuals charged with conspiracy to commit or any related gun charges, so I'm not going to speak to that. But to distance ourselves from that, even the perception at that time, and anything to do with that, we made the decision to leave. And I remember calling that meeting and having that discussion. And obviously, it was unfortunate. It was not us. It was obviously individuals who were among us that had different -- and like I said, this is to be proven. I can't speak to that but alleged to have different views than us. And I remember having that discussion and there was pushback initially, and I had said, "I'm leaving. And the majority of the individuals will leave with me, but I would like to leave together." And I had -- I remember I had said, "Google Coutts." You know, I was keeping an eye on mainstream media, et cetera. I was aware of Ottawa and such, but I wasn't aware of everything, but I remember saying, "Google Coutts." And any of the messages, any of the videos, any of the positivity around what we were doing, in my view, was lost. It was guns, guns, guns. And to be -- to not be associated with that or even that viewpoint, we arranged, and we arranged to leave. We agreed on, I think, by the 12th of noon -- or, sorry, noon on the 12th ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
At the ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, it's noon on the 14th.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Fifteen (15).
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, 15th is when -- no. We had asked that we would clear the blockade immediately but to leave as if we were never there. We had to arrange -- you know, we had mountains of firewood, for example. We had food. We -- like, we had, you know, the food. Something to write home about, but the food and just to make sure everything was cleaned up properly, we had negotiated that we would leave at 9 o'clock on the 15th. But the RCMP can attest that before noon, or around noon on the 14th ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- the highway was no longer impeded.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the timing of that is important, so I thank ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely it is.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- you for clarifying that. So noon on the 14th you communicate to the RCMP. You agree to leave.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Those discussions ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you told them ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- happened in the morning, and by noon ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- we had ---
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
But you told them, "Listen, we need some more time to clean everything up and to leave as a group and we'll leave by tomorrow morning."
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Right. So we had gone to the RCMP after we had talked to the DOJ, like Department of Justice. We had requested a Zoom with them. So we had that discussion, and then we had gone to the protest, because it was always -- it was never my decision or -- it was always a group decision we were leaving or we were -- we were going or we're staying. And I do remember having to address the group with that, and based on the situation and the information flowing around, it was a pretty -- you know, I didn't have to tell anybody to be quiet when I started to address the crowd. And there was some opposition. You know, we still have individuals coming in that were full of fight. You know, like, they wanted to be part of this, and they had showed up 15 minutes ago. And we were 18 days. We were pretty battered. So it was also a way to end this. There was no plan, so there was never a plan to end this, and this was, for us, a strategic retreat, victory retreat, whatever you want to call it. It is what it is. But we negotiated -- by noon, we had talked to the RCMP is we'd like to leave. Supper's cooking. We're going to invite people over legally one more time to do what we did. The tractors will be off the highway immediately and we will start -- we will commence cleanup efforts. Initially, the RCMP's -- they phoned it in. Their response was very heavy. They said, "You need to leave immediately, and we want you gone in an hour." And I remember thinking this is just crazy, and I just -- I walked away, essentially. And they went back in their vehicles and five minutes later, they came back and says, "Okay. Nine o'clock. Tractors last." You know, it was just last little bit of a, you know, power struggle, whatever it was. I thought whatever. We'll do tractors last and didn't matter to me. Didn't matter to us. But the decision to leave was made before noon on the 14th, and I believe at 9:45 on the 15th, we were leaving.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So those are all my questions. Is there anything that you'd like to tell the Commissioner that we haven't covered together?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Well, we've covered a lot. I just -- I want to speak to what Coutts was. It was a gathering of truckers, mainly farmers, eventually farmers bolstered the ranks, but it was a group of -- and the perception around Coutts, unfortunately, due to the discovery of the guns and such, has tainted what Coutts was. And, for me, what’s important is that we were there to demand that our representatives communicate with us like they are obligated to do and like what had not been happening. And there’s lots of different events during those days that I almost think it was like a chess game between the RCMP and the protesters. But, unfortunately, we were never able to enter in official communication with the government, but looking back at the political state of affairs in Alberta, it might have been better for the Kenney government to actually have done that. And -- because, at the end of the day, we’re Albertans and we’re Canadians, and the Covid restrictions and the mandates, they messed with our lives. Like, we see the inconsistencies of the experts. And I don’t necessarily blame them. The information provided was what they went off, and that information is, at times -- is now no longer factual either. Things -- you know, the ball kept on getting pushed further down the road. “Two weeks to flatten the curve,” and look at where we are now. And I’m not going to speak to Covid, and I’m no expert on it, but even the experts got it wrong. And for public trust to regained -- for the trust of Albertans to be regained, there has to be accountability. So thank you.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you for your time and for answering my questions. I am going to pass it over to my friends who will have questions for you now.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the first up is the Government of Alberta, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. STEPHANIE BOWES
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Good afternoon. For the record, my name is Stephanie Bowes. I’m appearing today on behalf of the Government of Alberta. Most of my questions have already been answered but I would like to cover off a few areas with you today. You’ve talked a little bit about your role as an unofficial spokesperson for the protesters at Coutts. And were there any other unofficial spokespeople at the same time that you were acting in that role?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There was individuals. The media, in the beginning, once their became -- once there was some organization -- you know, the event was organic, but once there was some organization established in regards to food, and logistics, and things like that, right. You have 200-and-some people in a place, you’ve got to establish some kind of structure. Once that was established and once it became more or less -- once I got pushed into the role of dealing with media, I dealt with the media. And there was certain media that had been chasing me around -- or chasing individuals around looking for some kind of comment. I remember one particular reporter who had finally, in frustration, said, “You want us -- how can we tell the world what’s going on here if you won’t talk to us?” And I won’t speak to the organization but obviously my view on that organization was why we were in that situation and I had turned and responded. I said, “Okay, you’re going to get an interview and I’ll be watching tonight, but that will determine whether you get another one tomorrow.” And I actually was able to say that my views on the organization may not have changed but I had a very, very positive relationship with this reporter and that has -- that has since then given me the discretion with other reporters to hear them out. But we had advised protesters to not speak to the media and that we were trying to orchestrate a general communication and general direction in regards to what came from Coutts, but individuals may have, on their accord, done interviews and stuff, and I’ve see those. And, you know, like I said, there was -- it’s not like the RCMP where there was such structure that you didn’t move left or right unless you were told to. We -- you know, we were there for freedom so it wasn’t like -- it wasn’t for us to go and order people around and tell them not to do this or not to do that.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And I understand from your anticipated statement that you would have described the protest at Milk River as being somewhat less organized than the protest at Coutts; is that fair to say?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. Yeah, so the RCMP had their initial blockade which was in -- on the -- January the 1st, the protesters went around it, so they reinforced it to the point where there was no longer any way to go through that other than going through the barricade, you know, which was never -- which would have resulted in violence, which was never an intention. But due to the numbers, which fluctuated on the weekends, and the first and the second weekend being obviously quite phenomenal due to the influx of people, thousands -- I believe we had over 10,000 on the Saturday, Saturday the -- I’m going to the 6th, I believe, but people had to take care of themselves, you know, sleeping accommodations, food, et cetera. There was individuals at the front that maintained -- to make sure we didn’t have anybody come in and cause problems, right? We were weary of people looking to come in and make us look -- you know, start something, and that it would be on us, right? So we were aware of that and just -- there was fires there so we made sure that the fires were contained and there was a general -- there was few individual at the Milk River protest that kept an eye on things and if things, you know, went a certain way, they would coordinate with the RCMP to make sure that was either resolved or de-escalated. But the biggest thing was to make sure that we didn’t have -- and I remember the thought and I’m not going to - - you know, that Antifa could show up and cause problems. And obviously, for myself, you know, being in the public eye, I had -- we had a fairly -- you know, we had threats to myself and to my family and I remember when I would go down to Milk River multiple times a day, or as needed, and it came to a point where I wasn’t alone. I would be accompanied by an individual or two just for my -- due to the worries of the protesters about my wellbeing. So it was less organized but, you know, I wouldn’t -- they were -- there was a lot of structure there, too, at the front, but on the weekends it was you took care of yourself, you know. Like, we called them “the weekend warriors”, you know; they showed up in droves. You know, it was the place to be in Alberta at the time, right, so.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And so that’s one of my other questions, was the composition of the protests would change depending on what day of the week it was and who was coming to the protest site; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct, yeah.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Now, in your Statement of Anticipated Evidence -- and you’ve spoken about this a little bit today -- you say that if the Government of Alberta had agreed to negotiate with spokespersons, the Coutts protest could have been dispersed. And I’ll take that you still believe that at this point in time; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And just to be clear, do you mean just the protest at Coutts or are you including that was occurring at Checkpoint 10 near Milk River?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Well, you know the events, right? When we left, they left.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So they were there for us. When we were gone, their goal was no longer achievable.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
You acknowledge, though, that you didn’t have control over any particular group of people at the protest; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There was less control over Milk River but there were still individuals who definitely kept an eye on the situation. And it was mainly the weekends that were just the most concerning in regards to public safety, and that was something I worked -- I spent hour working with the RCMP to -- I spent every day working with the RCMP to maintain public safety. That was something neither of us wanted, that somebody got hurt by accident.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
There were people who were at these protests that were protesting provincial health restrictions; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And there were certainly people there that were protesting any federal health restrictions; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe the biggest -- I believe everybody who was there was protesting provincial restrictions, and some may also have been protesting federal restrictions.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And I’ll the clerk if you could please pull up Document PB.CAN.00001333. And I’ll ask that you just scroll down to the second page to an email from Lisa Laurencelle-Peace on January 30th, 2022. I think you’ll have to scroll a little bit further. There it is there. And you'll see CBSA Intelligence provided the following in a couple of points down there. Rumours of another 800 protesters coming with heavy equipment because they want Trudeau there. Do you agree that there were people there who were looking to address Prime Minister -- or sorry -- yes, Prime Minister Trudeau with these -- with this protest?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I could see that being something individuals wanted. Trudeau is not popular in Alberta.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And did you see any -- and pardon my language here -- the "Fuck Trudeau" signs at the protest?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There would have been those signs at the protest. The amount -- no, I'm not aware of that.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Okay. Now, I understand that you spoke to Western Standard News during the protest; is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And on February 3rd, you told Western Standard News that the protesters involved in the Coutts blockade would depart at 7:00 a.m. on Friday, February 4th for a slow roll convoy to Edmonton to meet with Premier Kenney; is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Copy with Kenney?
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Yes.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And that wasn’t an agreement you had at that time with Premier Kenney? The plan was to go to Edmonton to try to meet with him; is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That would have been an ultimate success if we would have actually been able to meet with him. It was just -- it was a headline, you know, we're going -- you know, there was a bit of sarcasm in that headline that, you know, we're going to Edmonton -- which was not something I agreed with. Actually, I agreed with going to Edmonton; I disagreed with leaving Coutts. But the article spoke to those events, and there were individuals that did, and I believe from all corners of the province they came and caused logistical challenges in the downtown and on the Anthony Henday.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Did you tell the RCMP the same thing, that the Coutts protesters would be leaving and slow rolling to Edmonton?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Was there ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This, this ---
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Pardon. Go ahead.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This media publication came out before the -- before we -- or before I went and talked to the protesters as a whole, like I said, decision to leave or to stay was a group decision, and unfortunately, this article, we did have a plan through pressures that were applied on us by individual businesses, cattlemen's association and their representatives to leave Coutts. And I had -- sorry, I -- once that decision was made as a side group, smaller group involving these representatives, et cetera, the decision went to the crowd. The crowd unanimously -- I remember that moment - - unanimously and with a lot of emotion was like, "No." And I remember thinking, this is it, but unfortunately, things were able to be resolved very shortly and those who wanted to go to Edmonton were free to go, were free to leave at any time. But we had decided that leaving Coutts was not the objective. That was the objective of those representatives in the cattlemen's association because we were an inconvenience to them and they had worked away and influenced individuals who had reputation and who were attending this protest who had then called a meeting, which I was not in, initially, until I got the phone call, because I was coordinating things in Milk River with the RCMP. And I remember getting the phone call and coming south, coming back to Coutts, very frustrated because this had happened once before where we were almost sabotaged, in my view, of you know, leaving Coutts by individuals who had no bearing in Coutts, but who came in and they were this and they were that. And but it came to a decision eventually, regardless of my views, and -- because like I said, this wasn’t my thing, it wasn’t about me, it was -- I was playing a role of spokesman and I had to deliver that message to the crowd. And it was not well received, and we did not leave for Edmonton.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Okay. So to understand or paraphrase your evidence, there was a group that made a decision that this would happen, that the protesters would leave to go to Edmonton. You spoke to Western Standard News and told them the same thing, and then later, you spoke to the group of protesters on a larger basis and the decision was no, we're not going to go to Edmonton; is that correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. So my view of a decision like that was something that had to be -- so we decided to bring it back to the crowd, that it even made its way there. The majority of the individuals in that initial discussion had decided it was happening regardless of the crowd, which was naïve of them because the crowd were the protesters and it was their trucks and their equipment, et cetera. And we had prepped a statement. So eventually, I said, "Okay. Well then, this is what we're doing, but I first have to discuss it with the protesters, with the group." And as I went to do that, because it was in another building, the press release was released prior to speaking to the group. So that resulted in a hectic hour or two for RCMP, for us, for everybody. But ---
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And some confusion?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was definitely -- it was confusing because the statement read that we were leaving and it had my name all over it. And I remember hearing the crowd and somebody came up to me and showed me the picture, and I was like, "Really? Who released this?" Like, I was just shocked that this individual had -- or these individuals had released it. And I think it was also part of their tactic to pressure that now it was known to the public that we were leaving. But we never did.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Now, I'd like to talk to you about the announcement by the Government of Alberta on February 8th, and I'll ask the clerk to please go to Document ALB00001768. And you've talked a little bit about this with my friend already. I'll just scroll down to the bottom of page 2, and we'll see here, starting at the word "beginning": "Beginning Feb 8 at 11:59 p.m., Alberta will move to step 1 which includes the removal of the restrictions exemption program." And then there's other -- some other liftings of restrictions within that paragraph. And then the plan goes on to further describe various times that various COVID-19 health restrictions will be removed. Now, you talked about how the government didn’t move fast enough for you in terms of lifting restrictions. This was an announcement on February 8th that later that night, restrictions would be lifted. And then if we go to Alberta's Institutional Report, which is Document ALB.IR00000001, it's paragraph 19 on page 7 of this report, we see: "On February 8th, Alberta announced a plan for gradual easing of pandemic-related public health orders. Later that day, protesters resumed a complete blockade at the Coutts POE ---" --- which is port of entry. You acknowledge that despite Alberta's announcement about easing restrictions, the blockade resumed that day, correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
And we're still looking at paragraph 19. I'd also like to talk about the legal protest site that was made available by Alberta. Were you aware of the alternate protest site that was being provided?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes, I viewed the property.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Did you encourage protesters to use the alternate protest site instead of blocking the highway?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That was the biggest discussion I had with the RCMP that week, the longest that happened inside the buses at the Milk River protest, and I think the part that made it very unappealing was the fact that they had government WiFi there.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
So you refused the protest site on the basis of government WiFi?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That was the -- I believe that was the part that was completely ridiculous in regards to we got government wi-fi there. The biggest issue was the intent was to be on the highway. For the -- this was not Coutts, this was 100 percent in relation to the Milk River blockade. You're aware of that; correct?
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
I understand what you're saying. I think that was just sloppy language on my part.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Okay.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
So the -- but in any event, the protesters didn't shift over to protesting at that site; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, the -- it was never communicated to the protesters. I remember sitting in the bus with both groups of CCMGs, and I mean, I think even the officer in charge of Milk River -- the Milk River protest, and my -- I questioned them as to how I was supposed to convince the protesters to move off the highway into this field. It just wasn't realistic. Like there was no way that was going to happen.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
You didn't believe you could convince them to make that change.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Stephanie Bowes, Counsel (AB)
Okay, thank you. Those are all my questions today.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, call on the Government of Canada.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner, Mr. Huigenbos. For the record, my name is Ryann Atkins. I'm part of the legal team for the Government of Canada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. RYANN ATKINS
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
We heard that you're a town councillor for the Town of Fort Macleod in southern Alberta?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And on March 28th, 2022, you were given a letter of reprimand from the Mayor of Fort Macleod. Is that right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And that's in relation to the events and your participation in the convoy at Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
We also heard about the criminal charges that were laid against you. Are those charges still outstanding?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Now, we've heard that there are two distinct protest sites. There was the one in Coutts itself near the weigh station, and another one just south of Milk River by the checkpoint?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And I just want to understand where you were at various points of time. I think you said that you met Emily Motz at Milk River. Did you mean the protest site or the town?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Glenn Motz. We met in front of the sheriff busses at the Milk River blockade.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Was that on the southern side of the police barricade, or did you actually traverse the police barricade?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The north side. He was not -- you know, he was not allowed as a individual, or participating I would say, he was there to come talk to me. He was not allowed on the other side of those busses.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And that was on Saturday the fifth?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe that was on Saturday, yeah. It was a pretty crazy place.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Was that the same weekend that you were able to get out of the protest site for a family weekend?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, that was the second weekend.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So on two different weekends you were able to get out?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No. So in regards to my ability to traverse, I guess with the perk of being the media spokesperson allowed me to come and go as I needed to.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
So the police were allowing you to go back and forth? Sorry, you have to articulate.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes. Sorry.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And I think you said that you went down to Milk River, that is the protest site, a couple of times a day?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And you also spent time at the saloon in Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
You had mentioned that you brought your pickup truck to the protest and that initially it was parked in the parking lot by the saloon. Was that your evidence?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
My truck has probably been parked in a hundred different locations in Milk River and in Coutts.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And during the period of time that we're talking about, from January 29th to February 15th, it didn't remain in that parking lot?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Was it ever parked on the highway?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And that's including during the time when all lanes of the highway were blocked; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Now, at the beginning of the blockade on January 29th, the RCMP asked that the protesters not block all lanes of the highway. Were you aware of that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I can -- I didn't hear that communication, but I was aware, and I could understand that request.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And the reason you understand that request is because blocking all lanes could create a dangerous situation for residents of Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Because blocking all lanes would restrict or impede emergency response vehicles for example.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
That would be perceived. We actually did have an emergency response, and the lanes were cleared enough to allow that to proceed.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Eventually; right?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
At that specific time when that emergency vehicle showed up.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And you indicated that it wasn't your intention to completely block the highway, you personally.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, I believe on January 31st, you made a statement to the media saying that "we had to shift gears because we were hurting people who were supporting us." Correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
January the 31st. Can you provide some more context in regards to that comment?
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
So you're reported on January 31st as saying that "we need -- we want to stop hurting those who are supporting us." You don't recall making that statement?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I believe ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes?
(Off mic)
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
I'm just asking the witness if he recalls making that -- if he doesn't recall making that statement he doesn't recall.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I do recall making that statement, and the thought process behind that statement is this was a border blockade to southern Alberta -- other than southern Alberta. It didn't affect Edmonton as much as it would southern Alberta. It didn't affect Ottawa as much as it affected southern Alberta. So we were driven as protesters, as residents of Alberta to a place where we were willing to sacrifice our own livelihoods and more for the sake of getting in contact with our governing body.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And you'd agree with me that not all of the people who were being -- upon whom that sacrifice was being imposed supported what you were doing; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I'd like to take you to a video, if I can. And the number is PB.CAN.00001792. And if we could just queue it up at 5 minutes, 18 seconds please. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And you can stop it right there. You're aware that that was your -- the convoy you were participating in was having that affect on truckers?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
We were aware that that was the affect on some truckers; correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And it's a foreseeable consequence of blocking that highway; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was an unintended consequence, and after 45 hours those truckers were on their way.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Unintended, maybe, but foreseeable; yes?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No. No, being as organic as it was it was a direct unintended consequences.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Sorry. It's your evidence that completely blocking a highway all lanes wouldn't have consequences for truckers who use that highway?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was specifically the truckers that were stuck in the blockade. Truckers that were backed up on either side of the border had the ability to turn around and take different borders. We did not -- it was an inconvenience to Coutts, obviously, being the main port, but Del Bonita had an increase of 917 percent in commercial traffic flow during that time. We did not block all borders.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
I want to talk to you a little bit about what you call an inconvenience. On January 31st, and I can take you to it if you like, the Alberta Minister of Transport tweeted that there were 50 to 100 truckers stranded on the U.S. side since Saturday, so for several days, some hadn't eaten and some had medical issues. Were you aware of that tweet?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Were you aware that some truckers were facing those issues?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I was aware there was truckers on the American side, but these truckers were hoping for a speedy resolution, which could have been achievable by the Alberta Transportation Minister or Department and the government in general. Unfortunately that never happened and these truckers were stranded longer and eventually they did turn and take other ports of entry. But that was a decision. They were not forced to stay there of their own accord.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So you say -- okay. I'll leave that there. You also agree with me, I think, that Highway 4 is an important corridor for the people of Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And they use it to access essential services in Milk River?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
If we could just press play on the video where we left off at six minutes two seconds? [VIDEO PLAYBACK] You can stop it there. So watching that video, you would agree with me, I take it, that the Convoy posed a significant risk for the physical safety of people in Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
This interaction was the only time that there was vehicles between the Milk River blockade and the Coutts blockade, and we addressed that earlier in regards to them circumventing the initial RCMP blockade on the February the 1st. As a result of that, both lanes -- and I wasn’t there. But as a result of that, both lanes were going southbound, as the video stated. The individual that was heading northbound got into a motor vehicle accident with an individual that was heading southbound. The individual heading southbound was a resident of Coutts, was actually a previous -- I think they were known to each other. I believe there was an altercation at the time, which is very unfortunate. Upon hearing this and the damages to the vehicle, et cetera, and the inconvenience, as protestors, we leased them a vehicle while their vehicle was prepared, and we paid for all the damages to that vehicle.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
But my question was, you agree with me that what we just saw in that video was an unsafe situation?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely that was an unsafe situation.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Can we tee up Document PB.CAN.00001803 and just bring it to three minutes 18 seconds and just kind of freeze frame there, please? So I want to talk about the RCMP enforcement action on the -- in the early morning hours of February 14th. And I take it that this is a photo that you’ve actually seen before; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I’ve seen this photo before, yeah.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
You were asked about this photo in a news interview that you gave?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Possibly.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
You don’t recall?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I don’t recall. If you could show me the interview, I would recall.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I’ve given many interviews in the last ---
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
But you have seen this photo before?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And you’ll agree with me that it shows a large quantity of guns, body armour, ammunition, including high-capacity magazines?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Legal high- capacity magazines, if that’s what you’re referring to.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
But high-capacity magazines?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I don’t need to take you to it, but I believe you may have indicated that you thought there were more guns seized at Coutts than are depicted in this photo. Do you recall saying that?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, I don’t recall that.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. That’s fine. But were you aware that there were weapons at Coutts before the seizure of this cache of weapons?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You told the media that the decision to leave was made after the arrests on the 14th; correct?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And I believe you also said that it was made after the infiltration of extreme elements in the protest group?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Based on the information I was presented at the time, that was my statement regarding that.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And the information that you were presented at the time involved the presence of Diagolon symbols or supporters?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And I know you didn’t know about Diagolon before, but you learned about it at that time?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I learned about it after based on -- I’ve never in person seen it. It’s based on the information presented to me. So.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And you didn’t want to stay after that, because you didn’t want to be associated with extremists?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Were you at the Smuggler’s Saloon on February 3rd when Pastor Artur Pawlowski gave a speech?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
He walked in and I walked out.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So you didn’t stay for his speech?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It wasn’t a direct -- this -- I was addressing -- I was speaking to the crowd in regards to that decision to -- by that -- those individuals who have come in to leave for Edmonton, Coffee with Kenney. That happened just before Pastor Artur Pawlowski came in. And he might have actually been in the audience while I was explaining the motive, et cetera, et cetera. But the unanimous agreement was to stay. And this has never been -- Pastor Artur has charges in regards to this, but his charges that he incited us to stay because Coffee with Kenney was seen as us leaving. Before Pastor Artur reached the podium, or even reached the building, I’m not sure of the events, the protestors had decided we were staying. The decision to stay had nothing to do with Pastor Artur.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
That wasn’t my question. My question was whether you heard the speech.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, I did not hear the speech.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You didn’t hear about it on social media?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No. I might have listened to it after the actual events or after his arrest, just as to what actually happened.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
But before the Convoy ended?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I don’t believe I did. I don’t believe I did.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And so you didn’t hear anything about the substance of the speech while you were at Coutts?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I would have heard from individuals in the protests who would have come and talked to me after as to details of the speech or what it was about in general.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
And upon hearing the details of the speech, you didn’t decide to leave at that time?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
What specific details? No. No, we didn’t leave as to Artur’s speech. We -- Artur’s speech had no relevance on us staying or going.
Ryann Atkins, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the -- are the convoy organizers.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening, Mr. Commission. Bath-Shéba Van den Berg, counsel for Freedom Corp and protestors. We have no questions for Mr. Van Huigenbos. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
Nikolas De Stefano, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. We have no questions for this witness.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So Mr. Rejman, any questions to follow up?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MARTIN REJMAN
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Mr. Van Huigenbos, counsel for Canada, my friend, she showed you a clip where a vehicle was struck. Now, that wasn’t the only accident in Coutts; correct? The RCMP were involved with -- in an accident because they ignored a stop sign?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
And as a consequence of that accident, do you know if anybody was arrested for this alleged assault?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
In your opinion, and the political decisions that were made with respect to the pandemic and the covid virus, so the measures and responses, were they proportional or unproportional to the virus?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
The mandates and emergency measures?
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Yes.
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
They were not proportional to the response.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
And so you would agree with me that the response and the measures trampled various protected rights?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
They caused economic damage?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
There were social, health, and psychological implications and issues?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Still are.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Was there an injunction -- as far as you are aware of, was there an injunction sought or granted with respect to the Coutts' protest?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
I was never aware of that.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
And then during the Coutts' protest, was there any violence?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Was it a peaceful protest?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Were there families there?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Did you observe any kids playing road hockey?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Sure did.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
So one could state that it was a very Canadian protest?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
It was, yeah.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Now with respect to this alleged security team, to the best of your knowledge, was there an official security team?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
There was never any details or discussions around security. There was never any individuals who had the role of security other than, you know, my security because of the threats made against me while I was at the Milk River blockade just as I would say in an official capacity, personal security detail. There was equipment and motor vehicles, trucks and trailers, et cetera, parked on the highway, but the RCMP and anybody who wanted to had the ability to mingle with us, communicate with us, access us anywhere, use our facilities, dine with us, dine -- eat meals with us. There was no security needed.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
What threats against your family were made?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
So I wore -- you know, the temperatures were extreme. I wore a hat and coats that had my company logo on it, and we have a website where requests for proposals can be submitted by individuals. And that was used by individuals anonymously to put in a fake number, fake name, fake email, and then, you know, have at her, based on their views of something I was participating in. But what really topped it all was a phone call that came in at the end of the first week to the admin, and it took her a little bit to just connect the dots, but they rattled off -- sorry, they rattled off my address and said, "We're coming for your family." So I received this message probably half hour later at 5:30 on Friday. And took me a bit to process it and that's never happened before in my life. That's not something I -- I've ever been -- or I've ever had to deal with. I had already been dealing with some pretty nasty emails, et cetera, which I just, you know, just -- I get it. People had different views on different things. And but this was, you know, my address, my family. So I remember phoning my dad and my father-in-law and we took it seriously. That was the right response. And my family, from that day on, did not stay at our primary residence until I was -- until the blockade was concluded.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Thank you. With respect to the timeline, kind of the time between February -- or January 29th and February 15th or so, during the protest, we'll call it, there were 2 -- there were some arrests on February 13th and into the early morning of February 14th. There were no -- were there any other arrests in Coutts or in around Milk River ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No ---
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
--- that you were aware of?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- not that I'm aware of. I do believe there was somebody who was removed from the protest but not arrested. It was just we had requested this individual be removed. He was causing a disturbance and we were -- as a protest, we were very strict on some things and that involved the -- in Coutts where we had the ability to do that, right, where we had the influence, where there was no drinking in public. There was no, you know, speeding or any of that. We try to maintain a orderly event in those days.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Mr. Clerk, if we could pull up the document PB.NSC.CAN.00009207? Great. Thank you. Mr. Van Huigenbos, right here it's an email -- I'm not sure who John Ferguson is. It's regarding Coutts. At one point it says, "At approximately 22:00 [hours] a tractor tried to forcibly push a RCMP police vehicle out of the checkpoint with the assistance of a Pick-up..." Is that your recollections of the events?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
What happened?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Due to the cold weather and the equipment, if you're familiar with trucks and equipment in general, the batteries, if they do not run on a regular basis, the batteries will drain. So to prevent that sporadically and at different times, we would fire up all the equipment and let the equipment run. That was -- that occurred the night of -- so that occurred Sunday night on the 13th. And then Chris and Mark, two CCMGs. I don't recall their last names. They were the second shift, and Greg and Troy were a team, and Chris and Mark were a team. They were in front of the saloon, standing around the fire, doing what their role was, you know, community conflict group. Like, they were there interacting, and I'm pretty sure they were taking mental notes as to what we were up to, but there was a -- I think there was a gospel band playing in the saloon, and people were mingling, and families that -- or, sorry, people that couldn't be there on the week were there on a Sunday night. And it was a very quiet evening. And all the -- you know, the decision, or whatever it was, it was a minor thing to fire up all the tractors. You know, there was things happened on a daily and we tried to coordinate structure. And so all the tractors fired up. Unfortunately, one of these tractors -- one of these individuals decided to go for a little joyride with one of these tractors. And this drew the attention of the RCMP, and I'm going to say specifically, looking back, specifically, the SWAT or tactical teams that were in place to execute these warrants of that night, which we were not aware of, but they were in the vicinity. So being dark, they must have been within a couple minute response time, just waiting for the time to execute their warrants on the location outside of the protest in connection to the guns. This individual and this tractor triggered a response by these tactical teams, but prior to this, this tractor -- the first vehicle on site was an administrative vehicle. It was an unmarked RCMP vehicle with a staff member who works in administration, so who may have had -- received the training previously to be in the field, but was, you know -- they were short officers. Everybody was short officers. There was a lot of draw for the RCMP across the country, so they had a lot of individuals that were usually working desk jobs, et cetera, manning checkpoints. So this person must have been in the nearest checkpoint responding to this tractor driving around and what's going on. And this tractor ended up -- I can't speak for the individual driving this tractor, but from what I seen, this big tractor -- and if you're not familiar with tractors, they can be very intimidating all on their own parked. Now this tractor was driving around, and there was intention -- or, sorry, intention -- there was an unintended confrontation in an intersection where you have a little SUV manned by a RCMP officer who was obviously very intimidated by this piece of equipment. And it resulted in an altercation that was eventually de-escalated but resulted in this tractor being seized.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
But you -- in what you witnessed, there was -- you didn't see any attempt to forcibly push an RCMP vehicle?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
No, there was no attempt. If there was an attempt, it would have ended very unsatisfactory for that vehicle.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
The issue with the premier's announcement of February 8th. You would agree with me that it - - the issue was that it could have been that the premier or the government could have gone back on it? It wasn’t a solid plan; it had all kinds of avenues as to exit and do U-turns and come back?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct. So if I go back to the documents that were presented to us, the difference between these documents, which are very, very solid, and provide a clear plan as to the phased approach the province was taking, we were never responding to this document. We were responding to the premier's speech. This document was not available to us at that time. The premier's speech was a speech that in no way even mentioned the situation in Coutts. And we were not looking for recognition, but it nowhere mentioned. And what it did mention was a lot of maybes which we -- if we had the speech, we could bring it up. So we responded to the premier's wording, the tone, and everything around his address. We did not respond to a document that showed a phased approach. This document, in and of itself, is actually a fairly reasonable document, but that was not what we were responding to.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Am I out of time, Commissioner?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Okay. I've got two more questions. The truckers were labelled "Heroes" for nearly two years, and then with a stroke of a -- well, because they were deemed to be risking their lives for nearly two years -- with the stroke of a pen, those that were unvaccinated became essentially persona non grata, so that the truckers became -- they weren’t allowed essentially to -- some of them couldn't cross ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a question here?
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Yes, yes. Would you agree with the statement that suddenly, they -- for many years they were -- I mean, for almost two years they were labelled heroes, and then suddenly, they were not allowed to work?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Correct, and that was the frustration. They were the heroes of the pandemic. The truckers, when the drive-throughs were closed, when they had no ability to use washrooms, when they had no access to restaurants, the truckers were the heroes of the pandemic, and then with the stroke of a pen -- and obviously, there was discussion around that -- truckers had to make a decision ---
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
And my last question is ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
--- between -- sorry.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
--- with respect to the implementation of the public, the Emergency Act and the measures taken by the federal government, do you believe that it was because they were embarrassed by the various protests and various -- yeah, basically, the various protests?
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Absolutely. And not specifically Coutts. I do believe in regards to -- if Coutts were the only protest happening, we would have got the attention, the full attention of the federal government, but Ottawa and Ambassador Bridge were the draw. You know, Alberta and how that was affecting -- how Coutts was affecting Alberta is something the Alberta government was aware of, but in the evidence provided, there is an exchange between Bill Blair and Ric McIver, and there's six or seven days where there is no response to a request by Ric McIver for assistance by the federal government to removing or assisting in removing the blockade, until the minister texts Ric McIver and essentially says, "Oh, by the way, we invoked the Emergencies Act," which obviously set off a pretty heated exchange between the two. So it goes to show you that for six, seven days, there was no communication between the federal and the provincial governments, so that obviously put Coutts on a -- Coutts was of little concern to the federal government as a whole. It was a concern. Like, they were addressing it, but not on the same level as Ottawa or as the Ambassador Bridge, and I can understand that. But the EMA was enacted as a -- in my view, as a political tactic more than a actual enforcement tactic.
Martin Rejman, Counsel (Marco Van Huigenbos)
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. ALEXANDRA HEINE
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
Just one quick question -- or is this on, yeah -- by way of clean up. I showed you at the beginning your statement of anticipated evidence. That was, for the record, FAE00000003, and I forgot to ask you whether you adopt that statement. So Mr. Van Huigenbos, do you adopt that statement ---
Marco Van Huigenbos, Councillor (Fort Macleod)
Yes.
Alexandra Heine, Counsel (POEC)
--- as it was? Okay, thank you. Those are all my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Well, that completes the business for today, so we can adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I think tomorrow will be a longer day, so people should come prepared to stay longer than normal. So look forward to seeing you all back.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is adjourned. La Commission est ajournée.
Upon adjourning at 6:11 p.m. NA NA Ottawa, Ontario