Volume 21 (November 10, 2022)

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 7 21-007-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

My full name is Marlin Arman Degrand. M-a-r-l-i-n; A-r-m-a-n, and the surname is D-e-g-r-a- n-d.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning, sir. How are you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I do.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I do not.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 8 21-008-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s correct at the time that we spoke. We’ve since had a ministerial change and our department is now sort of split to Justice on one side, and I’m with the newly created Ministry of Public Safety and Emergency Services.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 9 21-009-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The role stays the same.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time of these events ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- I was the Assistant Deputy Minister and responsible for the coordination -- I have a number of duties as the Director of Law Enforcement. Primarily, at that time, was the coordination of law enforcement of the province. We also are responsible for oversight, research and statistical analysis, crime prevention and a number of other matters under Section 8 of our Police Act.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The Associate Deputy Minister, now Deputy Minister for our department, Dennis Cooley.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, our Minister at the time was Minister Savage, Interim Minister.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 10 21-010-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. Liaise and coordinate with.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. And very briefly, you have, of course, multiple levels of policing. The RCMP is the federal policing entity in the province, as it is anywhere in Canada. Within Alberta, we have a Police Act, which constitute -- which dictates the levels of responsibility for policing being for communities over the threshold of 5,000, they're required to have their own police force or a municipal service. They also have the option to contract with the RCMP in our province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I probably do all the time, so thank you, I will.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So certainly, there are multiple levels, as I was saying. Municipal policing is responsible in communities of over 5,000. In seven of those instances, we have municipal police services that are independent and self administered. The number of instances, 48, I believe, the communities have chosen to contract the RCMP as their contracted police service. The RCMP is also our contracted police service for the provision of provincial policing in the remainder of the province including First Nations and Métis settlements, with the exception of three communities, which have self-administered First Nations services.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 11 21-011-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, as the provincial police service.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

RCMP K-Division, the designation for all operations in Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. The Sheriff's Branch is a branch under my division, and it entails a number of discreet units, one of which is the Sheriff's Highway Patrol. The Sheriff's Highway Patrol works closely with the RCMP in the delivery of traffic services and traffic safety across the province. In their -- their role insofar as the border dispute at Coutts was directly in support of the RCMP's operational response, and we provided a number of our officers to the RCMP to assist in any number of areas, including traffic control and checkpoint control, under their direction and within their operations. Ordinarily, the sheriffs work collaboratively and cooperatively with the RCMP, but independently from the RCMP as a peace officer organization. They are not police officers. They have a specific mandate and specific authorities, which are quite broad. But in the case where they were providing operational support at Coutts, they were working under the command structure of the RCMP, as part of that response that was the responsibility of the police force of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 12 21-012-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

A large -- yes, that certainly is, the Traffic Safety Act, and a large number of provincial and other legislation they actually have authorities for under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act and other pieces of legislation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 13 21-013-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. The event at the border specifically was obviously a policing event, and police are charged with the responsibility for administering -- or for overseeing and addressing public order events and cases of, you know, breaches of the law, et cetera. In that particular case, the police force of jurisdiction being the RCMP has overall command and control of the event, and it would be improper and problematic for an independent agency such as the sheriffs to operate in an operational manner in that, or an unfortunate matter in that event, outside of the command and control of the RCMP as you could conceivably come across purposes for some of the strategies that were attempting to be embarked upon, both from a negotiation perspective or an enforcement perspective, et cetera. So you need to be coordinated and there has to be one unifying command and one command and control apparatus for the response.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 14 21-014-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It is a piece of legislation, and I probably am the wrong person to give you a very detailed explanation on it, but it's -- in a sense, it allows for -- to -- allows for police in the province to have another tool in their toolbox when dealing with matters that provide intrusions to or affect the operation of critical infrastructure in the province. It's not akin to, say, the Emergency Act, which is why we're here today in the sense that there's no need for invocation. It's much like the Traffic Safety Act, the Criminal Code, or any other statute that's available as a tool to law enforcement every day, an Act that is in place in Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 14 21-014-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, any police service can in their area of jurisdiction.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We do have an oversight function. We have policing standards that we developed in a collegial manner within the province with law enforcement and which we're charged with ensuring are met. We have audit programs that we are involved in and, of course, we are involved in policy development and giving advice to the government on legislative changes that may or may not be required.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 15 21-015-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, we became aware of that through information that was provided to us through law enforcement and through our Provincial Security Intelligence Office.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We have a reasonably well developed level of coordination between the law enforcement entities and the province, all police services, as well as our sheriffs, and our Provincial Security and Intelligence Office, which allows for the sharing of information in as near to real time as possible between those entities, so that we can -- and, of course, through the use of the Criminal Intelligence Service of Alberta within our law -- or combined forces law enforcement entity alert. Through those things, we receive information on a regular basis on any evolving situations that have an ability to impact any area of jurisdiction, or in this case, potentially multiple areas of jurisdiction across the province, and we ensure that it's shared not only broadly within the law enforcement community, but also provides insight for myself.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I received situational updates from my folks for sure, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 16 21-016-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The information we were receiving at the time through the RCMP was based on their conversations with organizers. Nothing that we saw indicated that -- or there’s always the potential for a blockade, but nothing we saw indicated that that was the intent of the slow roll convoy. There were a number of events being planned, including events at the Legislature and in Calgary. And those were all being monitored at the same time. The particular convoy that rolled from basically Lethbridge to the Coutts border was initially intended to be, from the information that was provided to us, a bunch of vehicles coming to the area, demonstrating through a slow roll, and leaving the area.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I did not.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sorry, September?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I understand. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 17 21-017-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t say that I’ve seen this. I’m not going to say for sure that it didn’t flow through the traffic, but I can’t say that I’ve seen this before.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely. There was always -- as I stated earlier, that’s certainly a risk, and it was a risk that I’m sure there’s chatter around that as well on the social media sites. But the organizers, as I understood them from the conversations that the RCMP were having, and I defer to them to speak in detail around that, were saying that wasn’t the intent. That stated, there’s always that risk.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t remember anybody mentioning splinter groups within any of the conversations I had at that time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 18 21-018-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That became apparent on the day of the event though, ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- that there was a group that splintered off from the thousand or so vehicles that were initially there. There was about 250 that sort of splintered off and stopped and blocked the road.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That phone call?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No. No, I’m not. Sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I want to defer probably to Deputy Zablocki, Deputy Commissioner Zablocki, on that, but the briefings I had were around the fact that there’s knowledge of the convoy, the fact -- the approximate size of what they anticipated was going to be coming, their plans to reach out to convoy organizers, distribute information, speak with individuals at checkpoints to make sure they understood the rules around -- sorry, slow down -- not blocking the highway in both areas, giving them, you know, direction on how to lawfully protest within the area. Those were all the plans that were articulated to myself, as well as at a gross level, or a high level, the number of police officers that would be, you know, brought to bear in terms of managing the event as it was unfolding.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 19 21-019-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I don’t. I’m sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was never on the ground at the site, so I rely heavily on the information from the police and some measure of personal experience, but from the long past. But the reality is that the blockade occurred spontaneously, as I understand it, in the sense that a number of vehicles were circuiting down to border point and back up and across in a bit of a demonstration circle, which was slowing traffic, but not blocking it, and that at some point, a number of vehicles just decided to stop and block the highway, which was, of course, contrary to the assurances of the organizers and contrary to the directions that were given by police. So at that point in time, the police on the ground were faced with a very difficult problem, in the sense that they had 250ish vehicles blocking a highway.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 20 21-020-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Correct. On the Canadian side.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe so. Yeah, there was some early conversations around the challenges that the community of Coutts was facing, and I know one of the things that the RCMP informed me they were working with, and they managed to gain support for, was creating access for the community to roadways out of the area in the first day or two of the event, or couple days of the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly. Yes, certainly. Although I’m not as familiar with Coutts to say if it was the only artery. But I believe it was certainly key.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 21 21-021-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I really don’t know a lot more about that, other than to -- what was relayed to me from the RCMP and the sense that they were looking to create access for the community and that it was resolved. And again I -- from memory, I can’t recall which day, but it was resolved early on in those first few days.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

To cross the border.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There was a number -- the RCMP relayed to me that there were a number of vehicles, truck drivers, sort of caught up in the matter that didn’t want to be there, ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- but had no way of getting out. And I’m going from memory, and I can’t remember which day it was, but again, on those early days, there was some progress made in discussions by the RCMP with the protestors to allow those that did not want to be there to leave. And I believe 25/30 trucks were escorted out of the area. But beyond that, there was no real avenue for truck drivers to go through when all the lanes were blocked.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 22 21-022-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think it’s important to note that throughout the duration of the event, which was a couple weeks, there were, you know, the majority of the time, there actually were one lane of travel open both north and south.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There are other border crossings that, very early on, efforts were made to ensure that those remained open. While the primary border crossing to the United States from Alberta is, of course, at Coutts at Sweet Grass, the Del Bonita and Carway crossings are also available. They have more restricted hours, and efforts were made by our Transport Canada folks, as well as the RCM -- or, sorry; transportation folks in Alberta, not Transport Canada; my apologies -- Transport Alberta Ministry and the RCMP to work with CBSA and American officials to ensure that we could extend the hours and the services that were available on those border crossings to facilitate travel, to the extent that it could be done, outside of Coutts itself when it was closed.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 23 21-023-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s the information that was relayed to me from the RCMP, absolutely.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I actually couldn’t speak to that. I can tell you that with some of the protesters wanting to leave, and others indicating that they were interested in transitioning to a lawful protest, the RCMP made the tactical decision to proceed with negotiations, which seemed reasonable and sound to me. And they did so. Those were not -- those ultimately proved unfruitful at that time. But, again, I wasn’t on the ground having those conversations so it would be speculative for me to say why they didn’t work out.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 24 21-024-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No. I can tell you that I was advised as the matter progressed that it was difficult to negotiate because there were multiple areas -- or multiple individuals that would come forward and claim leadership, and in this case there was a group that there was the initial leadership of the convoy, and then there was the splinter group, and then there was a group at this point in time, January 31st, that came forward and identified themselves as leadership and were speaking with the RCMP. I think later on -- and I’m not sure that was the 31st; I think it was in the subsequent days to follow, other groups identified them -- or individuals identified themselves as leadership, and not being represented by the folks that had previously been speaking with the RCMP. And one of the difficulties that was expressed to me from the RCMP was that they were getting multiple groups and -- within the -- or factions, if you will, within the global protesters, they are individuals with a mixed group of, sort of, motivations within the protest event itself, and it was making it difficult to negotiate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 25 21-025-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s what the RCMP actually indicated to me, and of course, their goal is always to resolve peacefully with the minimal use of force, so they took advantage of that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The flow of -- the information that the RCMP were stating is their goal was always certainly -- throughout the event but certainly at the start was to re-establish the flow of traffic through the Coutts border crossing.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

As I indicated earlier, there were times when it was successful in a limited fashion, in the sense that one lane was left open, and there was varying degrees of flow of traffic, sometimes escorted; sometimes free- flowing at a smaller pace. At some points the border was processing up to 50 percent of its normal kind of volume of traffic through the area. And then it would be shut down for a period of time, reopen, and then shut down again. And then ultimately we shut down until it was resolved for, I think, two or three days at the end.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Tenth (10th), yeah, somewhere in there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it was resolved on the -- I think the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 26 21-026-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

When the lanes were open, yes. There were -- as I stated, though, there were periods where they would be shut down. There was a period where there was a car accident that necessitated a shutdown. So it wasn’t a constant flow, and it was interrupted at times and then reopened, and then interrupted at times and reopened.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. It’s a -- yeah, you’re probably almost as familiar with the area as I am, having never actually travelled through that border point myself, but my understanding of it is the actual Customs office is just south of where the blockade took place, which is on the two highways that -- two sections of Highway 4 which travel down to it and there’s a bit of crossover, and come back up to it, and that’s where the blockade itself was, the primary blockade, and there was another one that actually sort of rose up, up the highway closer to the community of Milk River.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 27 21-027-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Some of the challenges were, as they were expressed to me -- and, of course, I wasn’t in personal conversation on many of these things, were that US officials receive certain type of goods -- types of goods only at certain checkpoints; live animal stock, foodstuffs, heavy transports versus automobile traffic, private vehicle traffic. And there was a lot of challenge in trying to extend not only hours of operation but also accommodate, at alternate points of contact for Customs clearance, the different types of commercial goods that travel through that border point. And I will not profess to be an expert in that area. It’s an area that I understood to be a challenge, and one that was worked on throughout the event with our folks from Transportation, Agriculture, as well as their US colleagues, and CBSA.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 28 21-028-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 28 21-028-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, it’s between the Province and Canada.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

And the RCMP is the service provider, and that’s the article that allows for the RCMP to move policing resources across multiple business lines in order to self-support when their resources require that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 29 21-029-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. My conversations with D/Comm. Zablocki, in those conversations he indicated that of course the resource draw to maintain order and safety at the blockade -- and, of course, manage other events that were and could be happening across the province -- was significant, and there are specialized resources that are used in those types of events, as well as general duty resources. And his intent, through invoking this article of the Provincial Police Services Agreement, was to reach out to other provinces for extra resources so as to give his team relief, in the sense that he could spell people off for a period of time, get them through a rest period and then put them back into their role.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I might have mentioned it earlier, but during the events at Coutts, we also had events in Calgary; numbers of people protesting and walking, marching through the community. We had events at the Legislature in Edmonton. We had intelligence and actual action of rolling blockades in some parts of the province, I think Fort Macleod, and a few others, so -- I believe Taber police dealt with a minor event as well. And so there were -- they were also tracking on social media, at different times, calls from individuals to protest in other parts of the province and create other traffic snarls, slow downs, that sort of thing. So those would have been the events that, I believe, the Deputy Commissioner would’ve been referencing; although, of course, he’d be able to speak to that himself.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 30 21-030-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

By February 3rd; at that point in time they were still working on negotiations with the protesters. If memory serves, they had a lane open by then, and there was north and south traffic flowing through there. They’d also, by then, encountered difficulties, if I -- if memory serves, with obtaining heavy tow capacity, should they have to move to an enforcement action. I don’t believe, at this point in time, they were looking to execute on an enforcement action. They were engaged in constructive dialogue that had been keeping the lanes open, mostly, for north/south traffic to some degree, and were hoping for a peaceful and, you know, a nonenforcement- oriented solution. But they also recognized they had challenges, logistically, should they go there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 31 21-031-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, they did. You can remove the people but we would still have large numbers of large vehicles that were blocking the highway.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m familiar with it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I am aware of that provision, the Act, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So as a public official, we of course provide advice to elected officials. Within that, we explored the realm of the possible, in the sense that we did identify the Emergency Act, its provisions, and the authorities that would come with its invocation. We also identified a number of statutes that provided law enforcement with effective arrests and charging tools, to deal with the actions that were taking place at Coutts. And to be fair, there are a number of authorities that exist sub or below the Emergency Act that would allow for police to arrest, detain, and remove people from that area. The determination was made by our government that, given the number of tools that were already available in statute to police, the addition of the Emergency Act would’ve changed nothing in terms of the authorities that the police required. And you mentioned compelling individuals to cooperate, that would certainly be something that could be attempted, but there’s also information that many of the individuals within the industry were fairly supportive of the protest or did not wish to be seen to be involved in taking action against the protest, for their own reasons, and I won’t speak to those ‘cause I don’t want to put myself in their head. But the reality is that a compulsion to somebody to provide support could conceivably, and probably, have been met just as easily with a refusal and then you are left with a choice of having to now deal with enforcement in relation to service providers and still not be any further ahead, in terms of where you’re trying to go. We ultimately thought there were more appropriate and better avenues to seek that support. One being Canadian Armed Forces’ support from CFB Edmonton, and the other is ultimately what we did do, which was resolve it ourselves through the purchase of equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 32 21-032-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s -- I should make that clear, that’s a very personal assessment on my part. That was not advice that was provided to anybody, and I can’t speak to our government officials, our Minister and Premier, and where their head was at on that. So I should be very clear about that. And that basis is just experience, and the reaction -- and this wouldn’t have February 3rd; this would’ve been much closer to 8th or 9th -- that I was getting from my folks that were engaged in conversations with the industry when they were attempting to solicit support from -- for the RCMP to use their equipment. It was categorically dismissed, and the people were either not returning our calls, point blank, or telling us that they just refuse to cooperate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, they did not.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 34 21-034-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

To be clear, I'm not seeing this until my preparation for the inquiry and this was provided to me. So I wasn't consulted. I know there were conversations at one point of MLAs independently meeting with protesters and having conversations with them, and that was -- I've not seen anything to substantiate whether that actually occurred or not. My information is that it wasn't something that the government was officially trying to do, but again, I can't speak to whether it happened or not. I do know that during those conversations, we met with our -- we -- not we, myself, but our department spoke with our Minister around that to make sure that we knew what may or may not be taking place and could convey that to the RCMP, of course, who are still charged with managing the event. The information that was conveyed to me was that there were no certainly official meetings taking place down there and that they would be guided by the RCMP, who, of course, had operational command and were engaged in negotiations, so as not to complicate any conversations that they might be involved in.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 35 21-035-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don't. I can't put myself in the Minister's mind. I apologise for that. I don't believe we received any request from the RCMP though to engage at that level.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So I suspect that might have been the reason.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I do.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Again, the RCMP, I believe, were asking that we make sure that our officers did not take unilateral enforcement actions outside of their operational plan. I can only surmise, and I will leave it to Deputy Zablocki to confirm, but that would have been to ensure that any actions that we took didn't interfere with any negotiations that might have been ongoing with individuals at the site.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 36 21-036-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That would have been a -- at the time, there was a sort of a very moderate or a small enforcement, I guess you could term it enforcement initiative that the RCMP wanted to engage in, basically, starting with information, if memory serves correctly, moving into I think it was checkpoint 10 near Milk River to have conversations with people, provide them with information, start charging vehicles, etc. So it would have been a coordinated effort based on the RCMP's operational plan and under their direction that our officers would have been involved in.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can't say that. I'm sorry. I'm sure the RCMP could tell you, but I just don't have that off the top of my head.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Absolutely. The RCMP actually suggested that it would be useful to them in their conversations with protesters if we were to make available a site that they could protest on that would meet their visibility needs but not obstruct traffic. We engaged with Transportation and ourselves, but primarily Transportation, in developing a site near Milk River, which met the needs of the RCMP, on property that we owned already. And Transportation actually put in access in egress areas for protesters and set up I believe even WiFi access for protesters to be able to utilise in order to facilitate those that wanted to protest lawfully at the site. This was a tactic that the RCMP wished to engage in, to, you know, manage the negotiations, to migrate this to a lawful.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 37 21-037-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

You know, they -- I don't recall knowing whether it was one or the other.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was a request, and, of course, we do what we could to assist, so we did it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Near other points of entry, yeah. Yes, that's correct. Del Bonita and Carway were the primary, the -- primarily the land points of entry that we were concerned about. And under the direction of the RCMP, our sheriffs set up checkpoints there to ensure that vehicles travelling down to those points of entry had legitimate business reasons to be doing so.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 38 21-038-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not -- I couldn't speak to what could have been, so, yes. It's possible, but I'm not aware of any -- anybody showing up and being turned away in -- en mass ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- if you will.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don't want to misspeak here. Something tells me it was used twice, but I -- certainly, that's the only one that comes to mind.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely, yeah, and certainly, Commissioner Zablocki and the RCMP would have a lot more fulsome detail on the charges they laid.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 39 21-039-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Why that particular Act was not utilised more? No. I know that enforcement was a strategy that was being looked at on a case-by-case basis, moment to moment, situation to situation. And they would use it in a manner that worked for them in terms of managing the overall event. But they never provided me with, you know, detailed explanations around why this charge against this person, why not this charge against these people. That's an operational level of detail that's candidly not something I would normally ask about.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

A hundred percent.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I mean, in the sense that we were very careful throughout the entire event to ensure that we were not directing police in their operational response. We were asking questions of them around planning, what they had done, if -- to the extent that they could share, what they would share in terms of their intentions, and things that we could do to facilitate the resolution of the event, but we were very careful not to direct them.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 40 21-040-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly, that was the beginning of events that ultimately led to the event. I would hesitate to say that that was the single event that was causal in that sense. There was a lot of work that was done by the RCMP and others in the days leading up to that to develop relationships, et cetera. So I -- to what extent was this a -- that crystallising event the sole reason and how much of that was facilitated by the outreach that was done in the past and the, you know, communications that was done by the government around the impacts of this, I think there are a constellation of factors that could have played a part in those decisions. But certainly, those enforcement actions were a catalysing event, for sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was very early in the morning that I was advised of the enforcement action, 7 -- well, very early for me, sorry, 7, 7:30. Now I'm struggling now to recall if it was at that particular conversation, or one of the conversations I had in the morning that I was advised that it looked like the protestors were now dismantling. And I want to think it was kind of a little bit later on, but that would be speculative on my part. It was all within the morning, certainly, of the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 41 21-041-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Or and beginning preparation that day actually and there was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- already events taking -- people taking down tents and structures and leaving on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

For all intents and purposes, operations were resumed on the 15th at the border point. I think there were still -- there may have been individuals still packing up, et cetera, in the area, and I'm not sure if Milk River had fully transitioned to the lawful protest site. It would have been the 15th, 16th, but I believe operations at the border resumed on the 15th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 42 21-042-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the -- yeah, they moved or left.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Majority actually left, if my memory serves me, from the conversations I had with the Deputy.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I wouldn't have that knowledge, sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There were a couple of arrests and some vehicle seizures associated to an event prior to the search warrants and the further charges there. So and there were, of course, the earlier charges that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 43 21-043-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- took place later on, but, yeah ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- outside of that ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there were no further arrests beyond -- I think there were 13 individuals that were arrested in those initial hours.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, yeah, no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The Federal Emergencies Act? No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

We continued to have protests in Calgary for quite some time after that, as well as in Edmonton, around the legislature. And both the Edmonton Police, the Calgary Police and the RCMP and our sheriffs were involved in those. We had protests at the Calgary Remand Centre involving individuals supportive of Mr. Paslowski (ph) -- Pawlowski. I apologise if I'm saying the name wrong. It's not intentional. Yeah, around that individual. And we had a number of events that recurred for some time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 44 21-044-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

My recollection of the intelligence briefings that I was getting was there were individual chatter, like individuals that would chatter about we need to go back, regroup and re-establish, but there was no update being shown on the open source information that we were receiving, and no information that was indicating that this was anything other than aspirational chatter from isolated individuals. And so I think it'd be fair to characterise that there was no intelligence surfaced that would indicate that was a real threat for that to evolve, but that's not to say that the police didn't take serious the possibility. I believe the RCMP remained, you know, present in some numbers in Milk River and in the area for some time afterwards, just to ensure that that didn't take place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 45 21-045-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That sounds right, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Capacity, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

In the event of mass enforcement action. I guess I should clarify that, if ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- we were going to go and remove all of the protesters and remove the blockage, if the RCMP were to do that, that would absolutely have to be in place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

To begin with, the RCMP, as the police force of jurisdiction, made their efforts and they had some limited success very early on, very, very, very early on, first days, that that support dissolved from industry quite quickly. They went afield -- and that was local support. They went afield and garnered some limited support which also quite quickly dissolved. And then they were struggling after that to find any support anywhere, both within the province and commercially outside of the province, B.C., Saskatchewan. I believe they might even have looked to commercial entities in the south, but I'm not a hundred percent certain of that. I'll let them speak to that. They approached us to indicate the challenges they were facing, and they indicated that they were going through their channels to seek support from the Canadian government for the use of heavy lift capacity that exists at the Canadian Forces Base in Edmonton, and were looking for anything that we could do to assist in terms of just generally trying to work through that. We initially, when tasked with trying to support them, supported their call for Canadian Forces logistical support, and we also embarked on a process, sort of an evolving process of attempting to secure that lift capacity for them. The first was through revisiting the commercial entities that they contacted as the government to try and secure support for them. We were unable to gain any support that way. We looked afield to the City of Edmonton, City of Lethbridge, City of Calgary, industry, ATCO, those sorts of things, CNCP, colleagues to the south of the U.S. border, to try and look for any capacity that we could get there. We had some very limited success, in the sense that we had one city that was able to provide us with a heavy tow truck. And that’s a minor -- sort of like a loader type, and small crane support from another city. But not the equipment that the RCMP required. So in support of our ask to the Canadian Forces, we had the RMCP actually set out exactly what they needed for equipment, should they have to go to that type of enforcement action. And that was what constituted sort of our list of two trucks and capacity that we sought out for them. Eventually, we determined that there was not going to be a commercial avenue there, and it was becoming apparent that we weren’t going to get access to the tow capacity of CFB Edmonton. And we were able to, through a multiple number of sort of, you know, online sites, identify five vendors who had lift capacity, used two trucks, if you will, for sale. The commercial providers of those entities, it was a long waiting list to get anything from the actual manufacturers. We’d explored that already. We did manage to secure a small number on the weekend of I think it would have been the 12th. We had them in place down in Lethbridge and turned over to the RCMP, and by the 14th, had identified and were closing the deal on the remainder of the list, save two items, which were all, I believe, in place on the 15th, in the south, for the RCMP at their disposal.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 46 21-046-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t say that they declined to the RCMP to become involved. I can tell you that the RCMP indicated they weren’t seeing the support. Whether they had an answer or not, I really would have to defer to them, because I don’t recall them ever telling me whether they’d been formally told no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t speak to specifically what options were being explored, whether they were looking at Transport Canada or other entities for their capacity. I did have conversations at various times with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Transport Canada, Kevin Brousseau, around our needs and around efforts that we were making. Along with what I’d described earlier, I’d also reached out to industry contacts within Alberta, as had our Transportation Department, to try and encourage them to help us in finding support. So I did ask Transport Canada’s ADM if he could reach into his contacts within industry and see if they could garner any support from us. Whether that materialized into any efforts or not, I would have to defer to Transport Canada on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 49 21-049-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’ll just have a quick peek. Oh, I believe this was the formal request for -- there had been informal conversations, as I’ve given to understand, before this. But this was a formal request from our Minister to the Federal Ministers for the deployment of those heavy lift capacity resources that the Canadian Forces possess in Alberta to assist us in removal of any equipment, should the RCMP go to an enforcement action. This was a formal request for that support.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

As I described earlier, that’s their efforts to try and secure commercial or other, you know, industry or City support to provide those kinds of supports that they needed.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 50 21-050-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. Yeah, this letter was about towing capacity.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it was structured that way, as opposed to the way that the RCMP structured their request to us in the sense that -- or we have formal military personnel and indicate that you don’t actually ask for the equipment, you ask for the capacity and they determine the equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 51 21-051-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly that was what we were looking for, although any capacity that could do that, whether it came from the CAF or some other branch of the Canadian Government would have been welcome.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I could think of no other source.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Certainly in-province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I -- off the top of my head now I can’t recall, but I think the response was something to the effect -- it might be in the Institutional ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Yeah. That’s where I was thinking he was indicating that they were having conversations with the Chief of Defence, but they weren’t -- it wasn’t positive.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 52 21-052-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it wasn’t looking like -- there was hesitation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

M’hm.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I was advised of that. I’d not, of course, seen the texts themselves until my preparation for the Inquiry, but I was advised that those conversations were taking place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 53 21-053-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. To whatever ability we could, we were looking for anything we could find. (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time she was the Deputy Minister, if I’m mot mistaken, of Transport -- Transportation in the Government of Alberta.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

M’hm.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 54 21-054-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah. And my apologies for the typo in there. It was, I believe, intended to say, “Poised” but it was also Saturday afternoon there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. We were making progress. By then we’d acquired some of the list and we’re working on leads, some of which later fall through but others that ultimately proved fruitful on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. It was my hope that we were searching out with our team for commercial capacity that we could purchase, and thought that perhaps the federal government could do the same and...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 55 21-055-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t -- I actually don’t have a lot of information around the efforts that were being made at the federal level. We did have a follow-up conversation the next day with ADM Brosseau and EWGSC representative prior to us actually completing the purchase of the last group of equipment, but I’m not sure what efforts they were actually undertaking at the federal level; it was unclear to me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

He’s the Assistant Deputy -- at the time, he was Assistant Deputy Minister for Transport Canada.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

This was on the 12th, so this was the remaining items from the list that the RCMP had provided us, which we had yet to acquire. So, of course, those were the items we were still looking to get, although I -- again, we had a deal pending later that day that ultimately fell through on much of this, and then we ended up acquiring it all on -- save for the top two items, we acquired the rest of those on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 56 21-056-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, they were in our possession, I think, the 14th, 15th, something like that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The deal started on the 13th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think that was just a touch base -- and I’m going from vague recollection here so please, you know, know that this might not be 100 percent correct, but from my memory the conversation was fairly generic in the sense that we were touching base, talking about the fact that we needed to combine resources, and talking about what we had acquired, and what we were trying to acquire, and that was the trigger for my following email to him, giving him the list of what was outstanding. And, again, I’m going from memory, so I apologize if that’s not 100 percent accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

They’re working on ways to support us, that’s correct, yes. And in terms of the Canadian Forces request, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 57 21-057-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not that I’m aware of.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 58 21-058-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not like that, no. No. I know there’s -- from personal experience I know there’s hesitance on the part of the Canadian Armed Forces to be involved in any police-type actions domestically, and I understand that’s an issue of concern to them, and the Government of Canada, of course. I’ve obviously not received this.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 59 21-059-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s a draft, so I don’t think it was sent. We have former significantly high ranking Canadian Armed Forces officers who are now within the Government of Alberta, including lieutenant-colonels, colonels, brigadier- generals, major-generals, and a lieutenant-general who have experience in command of Canadian Armed Forces based in Alberta. I’m surprised to read that they thought that the assets -- they don’t have the assets required to move those vehicles, given that, you know, the Armed Forces based in, from my personal knowledge, in Alberta, has the assets to move tanks, Leopard tanks being very large. So they can recover, lift, load and move tanks. I would have thought they would have capacity for this, but I’m not with the Canadian Armed Forces. In terms of risk, one of the things that we made clear in our conversations internally in the RCMP -- I’ll let them speak to it but I’m hoping to make clear as well, is there would be no use of any Canadian Armed Forces personnel in an enforcement capacity. They wouldn't be meeting protesters on the ground. The RCMP would be responsible for clearing and making safe the area, and any heavy equipment movement would take place after that had taken place, and the CAF would have been there dealing with equipment, not people. So I'm not sure where the significant risk part comes from, but again, I can't speak to the CAF's response or the Government of Canada's response, so I'll let them explain their thinking on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 59 21-059-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It had not been communicated to me, but candidly, it's a little off point to the request in the sense that the request was not for assistance in bringing laws to bear that would enable our officers to conduct enforcement actions. We had, as I indicated earlier, considered all of the legislative authority that was available in the toolbox for law enforcement to deal with this and felt that there was sufficient -- I would agree with the statement that there are sufficient legislative authorities within existence at the time to give the police the authority to act. The challenge was that to support their actions in that manner and to ultimately remove those vehicles, we required a logistical capacity that the police lacked, not a legislative authority, but a logistical capacity, and we were looking to the Government of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces to help augment that logistical capacity gap. Candidly, the police already knew about these -- this legislation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 61 21-061-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 61 21-061-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I recall the conversation with Talal and ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. There was also -- and I think, for clarity around the Reservist piece, there was another proposal that was being communicated and I can't tell you through what channel, but it was to -- for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Government of Canada to consider the use of some of the Reservists that might have operator skills to operate heavy lift equipment, should we acquire it. We had some that were identified, but we could use a few more. And if there were Reservists within the Canadian Armed Forces who by virtue of their experience in their trades might have that skillset, we'd proffered up the idea that perhaps we could use them, either on a -- you know, as a hired capacity to us or through whatever mechanism might make sense to the CAF, on their own time to support us. And the response that I was made aware of was that that would not be considered.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 62 21-062-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Use of those Reservists would not be considered.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that Reservist portion. That was actually ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- something that neither Dalal or Transport -- the ADM from Public Safety Canada or his colleague from TC had indicated they were aware of, but they were going to look into that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 63 21-063-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, based on the text exchange that I see here, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 64 21-064-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

They had not been able to provide that, and I was aware from other conversations that the CAF were not ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 65 21-065-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- looking to assist.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 65 21-065-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s very difficult for me to put my head directly into the mind of Minister McIver. Candidly, though, my understanding and interest from this, based on our global conversations within the GOA, were that we didn’t require a legislative authority of the Emergency Act to resolve our issue. We required logistical help that was available in-province. And it was denied to us. So we found a different way to address it. That is, bought the tow trucks ourselves.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s, again, in the absence of being able to have spoken to him directly on this, that’s my sense of it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 67 21-067-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m aware that that took place, yes. That there was a meeting of the First Ministers on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I personally was not involved in the conversations, but I’m aware and have viewed information from our Premier’s office and his Chief of Staff that outlines the fact that the Premier was not provided with advanced notice. There’s normally a process for engaging in the setting of First Minister’s meetings, which will often be a week or more in advance, with agendas and topics. The information provided from our Premier’s office is that there was no advance notice and there was no advance notice of topic, there was no time to gather information or brief the Premier on the Emergencies Act because it was unclear. We didn’t have notice of that being the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- meeting on the 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 68 21-068-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you so much.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 69 21-069-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I could -- I will assume that’s the case. I’ve not bee following all the proceedings. My apologies.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not aware of that, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not familiar enough with the proceeding to even comment on that, but no.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 70 21-070-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well and actually, with all due respect, actually I would suggest that I’m not a lawyer and I wouldn’t actually probably be qualified for that. I’m not aware of that, but there could very well be things there that I’m not aware of.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have a sense of it. I was obviously not on the ground, but -- and I was not operational at the time, but I have previous experiences that would certainly inform on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 71 21-071-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Absolutely, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, so I have a great deal of respect for Commissioner Zablocki and his command team.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s actually not quite correct. I started as an executive -- my apologies; you would have no way of knowing this, sir, so I started as an Executive Director. So as sort of -- I reported to the Assistant Deputy Minister at the time, Bill Sweeney, and I became the ADM in 2021. Sorry; I just want to be factually accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. No, of course you would have no way to know that, so...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I did, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, from memory, that’s ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 72 21-072-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- the slow roll, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sure, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. That would be now- Chief Superintendent -- I’m not sure if he was at the time -- Peter Tewfik with the RCMP.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 73 21-073-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah, that’s on the 29th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Three from Coaldale, two from Coutts on the first day shift, and then the evening, yeah, three from Coutts, two reassigned from Redcliff and two from overtime, yeah, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what it says. Yes, correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 74 21-074-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I -- it would be difficult for me to say what individualized effect it had, but, ultimately, we still had a blockade.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 75 21-075-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If they in fact were accurate, that would’ve been the assumption that was being made. But we just were making sure that that information was passed on to the RCMP, who were also hearing that. And I believe the -- at least two of the three might’ve had some activity, but it was resolved reasonably quickly.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, it’s the Provincial Security Intelligence Office.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 76 21-076-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Emerged from in the sense that it’s inspired by and in support of, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Anything’s possible, but there was no information or intelligence to support that. Although that, of course, was one of the things that our -- the law enforcement agencies was lucky to determine.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 77 21-077-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what the information intelligence as being reported to me was; of course I relied on that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was because it was, of course, one of those factors that was limiting the cooperation that the RCMP were able to gain from that industry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 78 21-078-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, those are individual comments that were out there, that’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s correct. There was even reports of vehicles, such as farm implements and tractors, coming across country over -- instead of on road to get to the site. It’s a very open area and it’s very difficult to contain and secure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there were individuals out there calling for spontaneous action around the province in support of the blockade. Very little materialized other than the main concerns that emerged in Edmonton and Calgary, although as I indicated earlier, there were some small ones; I think you saw them, at Fort Macleod, in Taber, like I mentioned earlier, and a few others.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 79 21-079-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I do, sir. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah. It was very difficult to find true, defined leadership.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Exactly, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think know which one you’re referencing but I’ll...

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I did not actually, sir. Sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 80 21-080-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's -- it is my understanding of it is the officers at this -- at the checkpoint moved their vehicles to avoid any collision and then vehicles from the checkpoint began to traverse southward. At least one was in the northbound lane and collided with another vehicle that was northbound in the northbound lane, and that is when -- the reference to the brawl is there was a confrontation that ensued between the participants in the collision, that the RCMP and sheriffs on scene had to break up.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, sorry, I haven't seen that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 81 21-081-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I will. Thank you, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. I think that was information from other Ministries. Deputy Ministers were receiving intelligence that over various social media platforms, I think Facebook and others, that people were calling for a bear hug, which was a call to sort of obstruct traffic throughout the province.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 82 21-082-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah. I guess it's important to ensure that it's -- this is characterised as aspirational intelligence. These are people that are trying to develop these things. I don't think we ever developed significant intelligence in this area, but certainly there were some sporadic and small-scale events.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the -- if you're looking at the North Central Region, those are unconfirmed reports, and then Peace Region, again, unconfirmed reports of activity around there, or plans, a planned activity.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 83 21-083-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Those were calls, yeah. That's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not actually, no, I'm sorry. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, absolutely, depending on how things manifest themselves and evolve, but that's certainly the point of the intelligence was to make police aware.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, although there are, as I indicated earlier, municipal forces in Lacombe, for instance, in Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, et cetera.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, and the First Nation Services. That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 84 21-084-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, okay. Yeah, the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- Article 9, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay. Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, sir, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see that, yes, correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Insofar as it's pertaining to the Provincial Police Services Agreement, yes. And I guess there's some context there, sir, in the sense that the Provincial Police Services Agreement under Article 9 envisions situations which would require the movement of resources to support major events, emergencies, et cetera, as defined -- as they pertain to that Act -- or that agreement, that contract, if you will. It's a little different than, say, perhaps our provincial Emergency Act or perhaps the Federal Act, but I'm ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 85 21-085-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- just not sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I just don't want to conflate the two different definitions.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah, you betcha.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Not only that, but also movement of officers within Alberta from different business lines to -- because there are provincial policing business lines. There are also municipal business lines and federal lines. And it would allow him to dip into those resources as well as resources external to the province, to augment his provincial police service and give them the resources they need to manage the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 86 21-086-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct. When we receive such requests for our officers as well, one of the first questions we ask is, of course, what is the impact on core policing and it's up to the commanding officer of that division that's sending them to determine whether those can be sent in a manner that's safe.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Those were the intelligence pieces that they were hearing, that's correct. And they were hearing aspirational information as well around Saskatchewan and Manitoba, I believe, in that conversation I had with my colleague.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 87 21-087-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If they materialise to certain levels, I'm sure they could, but I'm not sure whether they did or not.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that sounds right, sir. Yeah, it does, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct, yeah, there's multiple points of origin and they converged in Edmonton there and the Edmonton Police, the sheriffs working with assistance from the RCMP were tasked with managing that event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's -- yeah, from memory, that sounds right.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I did not, sir. I've been kind of careful to avoid too much just because I didn't want to colour my own opportunity here and ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 88 21-088-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

M'hm.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I actually am aware of that event, yes, from the RCMP's reporting, not from this conversation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 89 21-089-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No, I haven't actually.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's what I heard, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's what I assume the reference.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 90 21-090-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I do, sir, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm familiar with the -- this story, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, you bet.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Correct. That's what it says there.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That's correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 91 21-091-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That was one of the two rumours that we heard involving Mr. Brandt.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Well, I don't see his name on this text, but certainly that was one of the rumours. Whether there was other rumours that the Minister was hearing about other helicopter drops, there -- and I'm not even sure, I think by this point, the NOTAM or the Notice to Airmen restricting air space might have been in place as well, so that might have been -- I don't want to put myself in the mind of the Minister as to what she was ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

See, I'm not familiar with any information around Rebel News renting a chopper, but certainly that's the post from the -- that was from the mayor.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 92 21-092-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe it was. We actually conveyed that to the RCMP, and they had conversations with Mr. Brandt's personnel, and they claimed they -- they indicated that they have no intention of providing a concert there and did not violate the NOTAM.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, we share the same speed of talking, sir. Sorry. Yes, I do read that. There's -- that's based on the photograph that was received. What I was hearing from Mr. McAuley was that there's nothing to state that this actually happened. The helicopter in the picture appears consistent with that used by Mr. Brandt, but there's nothing to indicate, you know, whether he did what was being rumoured to have been done, that is resupply. And even if that was the case, it would appear that it would have taken place prior to any Notice to Airmen restrictions on the airspace being in place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 93 21-093-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, that's correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

February 7th. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, that's what came to me from -- ultimately, through the -- through Mr. Buffin.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not sure where the firearms were found, if there were any found in trucks, in cabs, but certainly, ultimately, firearms were found and seized there. This was early information that I, of course, immediately passed along to the RCMP who were managing the event.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 94 21-094-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, absolutely.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, if -- yeah, absolutely. The presence of firearms at any dispute of this nature could potentially be dangerous, and as any event that the police deal with.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I am aware, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 95 21-095-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. I do have a bit more information that was developed since that initial sort of heads-up, if you will. It did appear that the individuals -- I’d better be careful because I don’t want to conflate two incidents.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So we’ll leave it at that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. I apologize, yeah, that’s probably the best. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I was, that it was in relation to Mr. Pawlowski.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 96 21-096-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That sounds right. I don’t have that specific number in my memory.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not sure what their motivation was, but certainly in anticipation of the events that they were seeing being planned from there, they obtained an injunction for that weekend, that’s for sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 97 21-097-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, there was a counter- protest that evolved that was going to confront the protesters and stop them from doing -- demonstrating and doing their drive- through. There was going to be a confrontation, and the Edmonton Police Service reports that they intervened and separated the parties and allowed for the protest to carry on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If allowed to come to physical contact with each other it’s much more difficult to keep it peaceful.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sure.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 98 21-098-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I do see that, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see that. That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I’m familiar with the term.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, the tactic is organized, that’s for sure. Yeah, Justice Rooke’s deliberation ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

--- is very accurate.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 99 21-099-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’ll take your work for it, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I believe you, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Seven zero?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 100 21-100-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I see that, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I thought it was 2:00 a.m., sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

So, like, into the evening of the 13th and -- sorry.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 101 21-101-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see his name.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-06

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I could just have one moment?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Can I quickly read through this? (SHORT PAUSE)

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-19

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay. Go ahead, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 102 21-102-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 103 21-103-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. No, I understand, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay. Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I see that, yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 104 21-104-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s very fair.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m not aware of that, actually.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Sorry, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 105 21-105-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. I’m relying on the information that we provided with the Institutional Report on both cases.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s fair, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I’m sorry?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 106 21-106-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That would be the province’s position, and certainly from my personal experience, I received no consultation.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. Post. That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, sir. I’m not sure that it would be fair to say they didn’t try. I would suggest, though, that we received no assistance.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you very much, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 107 21-107-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning, or good afternoon. How are you?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I had to check. Sorry, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Pleased to meet you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think that -- I wouldn’t have that kind of tactical level of information, so I honestly don’t have knowledge of that. You would probably be better ask that of the Deputy Commissioner. And I’m not trying to avoid. I just sincerely was not briefed at that level of detail.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 108 21-108-21

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I have actually no understanding of the undercover operations or the intelligence- gathering operations of the RCMP. The level of detail that I was briefed at was really of the existence of threats within the group that were potentially more violent and that they had intelligence to indicate that they were armed and planning to do violence in relation to the police should any enforcement action take place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I apologize. I just have no detail in terms of the actual criminal file or the investigation itself. Quite carefully avoided that level of interaction with the police and kept it at a higher level.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Was that information, that this group was there, relayed to the federal executive?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 109 21-109-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I wouldn’t have any knowledge of that. That would be a conversation probably at the federal level of the RCMP, and certainly not one I was privy to or was briefed on.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I don’t have any knowledge of that. I can’t say that it didn’t happen. I just don’t know.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There was a -- similar to the Article 9 provisions that we spoke to earlier, there was another request for support to the national response to the situation in Ottawa. And that came right after the weekend, so I want to say 15th, 16th, somewhere in that range. And I was aware that the RCMP, along with the Calgary Police and the Edmonton Police, were providing officers to support the Ottawa Police Service in their efforts.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 110 21-110-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-05

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It’s used at any time.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I was not aware of any requests at all before that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

The provisions of the Police Services Agreement remain in place to this day and have been since 2012 when we signed the agreement, so they could have been asked for. I won’t speculate as to what our response would have been.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 111 21-111-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Good morning. Pleased to meet you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I could scroll through it a tiny bit more, maybe reduce the ---

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 112 21-112-26

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, sorry. If we could maybe just -- sorry, thank you. Yeah, I believe I've examined this document.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, I have.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I'm not familiar with any explanation of the prime minister's thoughts behind that from anyone.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 113 21-113-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-11

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Peter Lemieux is the Acting Executive Director of the Provincial Security and Intelligence Office. And during this time, he was the individual who I tasked as the lead in the procurement of that equipment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-17

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

It was procured over a couple of days, and I think ultimately, all of it was in place by the 14th or 15th -- I think 14th.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-23

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 114 21-114-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. I saw that in the note from Peter earlier. I think a better term for "on" February 13th would have been "by" February 13th. We had actually acquired a small amount of that equipment earlier than that, and the last of it was procured, and then it was all in place, I believe, on the 14th, down south. Yeah, it was ready for deployment.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-03

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Save two specialty vehicles, this was the exact equipment that we were told by the RCMP that they required if they were to have to execute an enforcement plan and tow all the vehicles at the border crossing.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

There are some other documents that speak to them, but one is a tire service truck and a number of tires, and the other is a heavy-duty mechanic's truck with tools.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 115 21-115-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, I've seen this earlier today. That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-02

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-10

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Could we scroll to the top again so I could confirm the date?

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-13

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

If I remember correctly, this is a review of a conversation that we had had earlier on in the day on the 13th, that being a conversation with myself, ADM Dakalbab Talal, and the public works -- government services representative. I can't recall who was there on that call. And at that point in time, we were in the process of procuring the equipment that we ultimately later on, by the 13th, by the end of the day, we had actually procured. So when you see the reference from Peter Lemieux to by the 13th we had it, the information that Talal in this message was referencing came from a point in time prior to us having finalized the purchase of the last of the equipment, so we were still looking for trucks when he and I had a conversation, and his reference to our conversation contained in this email to Rob Stewart is based on that sort of hind-dated information that we were still looking for it.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 116 21-116-16

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah. They're temporal in terms of the course of the day. They're relying on information that was provided at the start of the day, whereas the Peter Lemieux document references what we had by the end.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-07

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, it is, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct. Dan Laville is -- was the Communications Director for our ministry at the time and was forwarding to me a copy of an Alberta RCMP news release.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 117 21-117-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s what it says.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can't speak with certainty, because of course, I wasn’t part of the investigation, but it was my understanding it was police. But that is -- that would be third-party or speculative on my part, and I would want that to come out in evidence in court.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Okay, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 118 21-118-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, that’s the reference, yes. That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Now, I have to be careful and caveat my response in the sense that my understanding of the first ministers’ meeting is that is was, as articulated by counsel for the Government of Canada, somewhere around 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning. I was not party to that event. If the timing was as indicated by counsel, then it would have been before because my conversation with the deputy commissioner indicated it was in early morning hours, 2:30 or so in the morning, that the arrests took place.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, as I said, that was me having a conversation with the deputy commissioner.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

And then -- and 7:30 is a rough estimate. I probably could go back on my phone and try and find the call but it was before normal business hours.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 119 21-119-27

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the time, just the intelligence I was receiving from the deputy commissioner around the fact that there was a volatile presence within the group that they were examining, and that they proved a threat or a risk. It was very generic at that high level, the types of conversations that I had with the deputy commissioner.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-12

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yeah, Deputy Commissioner Zablocki.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 120 21-120-22

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

He was arrested by the RCMP, and I know it was tied to his actions down at the blockade. I would probably want to defer to them as to the rationale, specifically around what led -- or what evidence they have that led them to cause them to arrest him and charge him.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I can’t disagree with it. It sounds right. I just don’t have the dates in front of me. So yeah, that sounds right.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 121 21-121-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, good morning. Pleased to meet you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-09

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

At the ADM level, that’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-15

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-20

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That is correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-24

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 122 21-122-28

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

That’s sounds very correct, sir, thank you.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-04

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I did, although I believe on the 7th there was deputy minister presence as well, and Associate Deputy Minister Dennis Cooley was there with me.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-08

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

No.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-14

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

I think it would have been a very good initial forum to have initial conversations. Certainly, consultation, as I understand it to be envisioned, would be required at a much higher but, certainly, that would have been a very good starting point for that.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-18

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Oh, that’s correct, sir.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 123 21-123-25

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

Yes, they can, when required.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-01

Marlin Degrand, ADM (AB-JSG)

In point of fact, it did later, but yes.

Volume 21 (November 10, 2022), page 124 21-124-05