Volume 4 (October 18, 2022)
Volume 4 has 277 pages of testimony. 18 people spoke before the Commission, including 2 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Sandrine Martineau-Lupien.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Jim Watson, Mayor - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 601 times)
- Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 362 times)
- Kim Ayotte, General Manager - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 269 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 133 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 65 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 64 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 63 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 56 times)
- Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 53 times)
- Andrew Gibbs, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 44 times)
- Alan Honner, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 34 times)
- Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 32 times)
- Sujit Choudhry, Counsel - Canadian Constitution Foundation (CCF) (spoke 12 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 12 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 11 times)
- Colleen McKeown, Counsel - Criminal Lawyers’ Association / Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers (CLA/CCCDL) (spoke 11 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 4 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Tuesday October 18, 2022, at 9:30 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, good morning. Okay. Today I think we start off, unless there's any preliminary business, I think we start off with the mayor of Ottawa. Is that correct, Ms. Rodriguez? Okay. Go ahead.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I'm Natalia Rodriguez, senior Commission Counsel, and we would like to call Mr. Mayor Jim Watson.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Mayor Watson, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
On a Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
Please take the Bible in your right hand. For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
James Alexander Watson, J-A-M- E-S A-L-E-X-A-N-D-E-R W-A-T-S-O-N.
MAYOR JIM WATSON, Sworn
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mayor Watson. How are you?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- the invitation.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Nice to see you again. And you had an interview with Commission Counsel on August 18, 2022, and on September 7th, 2022; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you've had a chance to review the interview summary that was generated from those interviews?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any corrections at this time to make to that interview summary?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So I'm just going to pull it up, WTS00000018. And so that's your witness summary there?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we will enter that into evidence today. Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now I see that you have a document with you today; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I've got our summary of chronology.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And does it have any notations on it?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
It does, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I would ask that you can have the summary of the timeline. And I believe the timeline you're referring to is -- yeah, so we're going to take that one.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you can have the timeline of events as -- yeah, and that is the institution report of the City of Ottawa with respect to the timeline of events; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you've indicated that -- are there any notations on that one?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not this one, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And can you tell us why you're having that with you today for your testimony?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Just to be clear on the dates, the sequence of events that took place earlier this year.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it's a way to remember the dates?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now my understanding is that you were not involved in the day-to-day planning and preparation for the convoy's arrival in Ottawa; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And that was left mainly to the City Manager, Steve Kanellakos, and others within the City; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that you had a briefing with former Chief Sloly and Mr. Kanellakos on the 26th to talk about what to expect in terms of the convoy's arrival, so this is now before the arrival of the convoy; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's right, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us what the Chief told you in terms of what to expect?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the information was not particularly clear. No one had a real sense of how many vehicles were coming, whether they were going to stay a long period of time, what their actual plan was. There was a sense on the -- the Chief indicated that the group was somewhat disorganized and did not speak with one voice.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of scope, scale, number of vehicles, number of protesters, can you give us a sense for what you were told?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That they were coming from three different locations, the west, the east and central Canada to convene on or near Ottawa, and that they were upset with the mask mandates, which were primarily, as you know, a provincial matter, but they were upset with the federal government as well.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did he give a sense for how long you could expect them to be in Ottawa?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
My recollection was that they would be here for one or two days. That was the norm. You know, a lot of people protest in our city, and our police do a very good job of controlling and managing the situation. And to the best of my knowledge, we never had a protest in the 25 years I've been in public service that lasted more than a couple of days and then they gathered their signs and placards and went back home.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So it was -- one or two days was the sense that you got from the Chief in terms of how long the convoy would be in Ottawa?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, there was a bit of a moving agenda for the organisers of the convoy because at one point they had, I believe, Mr. Bernier wanting to speaking, and then he wasn't able to come on the Friday or the Saturday and there was push back a day. So there seemed to be some challenges that they were having as to who was going to speak and when they were going to speak and that prolonged it. My view at the time was that it would probably last a couple of days. My understanding was most of these truckers were independent and if they weren't on the road doing business and pickups they were losing money, so that they would in fact go home on Saturday or Sunday, and obviously that did not happen.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And the Chief didn't give you any indication that it would be other -- anything other than the weekend?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, we didn't have any indication. We had a memo or an email from Steve Ball at the Hotel Association indicating that one of the organisers had come and enquired about a long-term booking of thirty-plus days at a number of hotels. They wanted, I think, 9,000 to 10,000 hotel rooms.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did that concern you at all?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, it did, except, you know, when you're making a booking you have to have some evidence you're going to follow through with it. So simply asking about booking 11,000 rooms when the city only has about 11,000 rooms at its disposal for tourism industry, I don't think most took it seriously for the simple reason that there was no follow up. It was simply asking about rooms and room availability, and rates I suppose, and then it didn't really anywhere because my understanding is that the bulk of the people with large rigs stayed in their cabs, they didn't need hotels.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in your discussions with Chief Sloly on the 26th, was there any discussion about what would be done in the event that the protestors decided to stay longer than a couple of days?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't recall any other discussion on that at that point.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, at some point you began to use the term "occupation" in your correspondence. At what point did you determine that this was no longer a protest and that it was an occupation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, a couple of points. First, when more people started to arrive; and secondly, when people were not leaving the Parliamentary Precinct. So there were those two points that really brought to light the fact that this was going to more of an occupation as opposed to a protest. As I said, the police in our city are very used to handling large protests, and large visits of state leaders and so on, but nothing of this magnitude has ever been seen, quite frankly, in any city that I'm aware of in Canada in the last 25 years.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is it fair to say by Monday, the 31st, after that first weekend, when the majority of the trucks were still there, that that's when you determined that they were not going to leave anytime soon?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thereabouts, either -- whether it's the Monday or the Tuesday, and then certainly that was solidified in my mind that they weren't going to leave on the weekends. When the weekends started to create this very tense situation where people were coming in from all over the region, and in fact, different parts of the country to come and support the protestors, and that's where the havoc and the chaos was created in our communities.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was there ever a discussion that you had with either Chief Sloly or the deputy chiefs about blocking access to the additional convoys that were coming that second weekend to join the original protest?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't recall being in any meeting when that was discussed.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you raise the issue?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
My bigger concern at that time, from recollection, was what can we do to ensure that the trucks don't go into the residential areas? Because we knew that the impact that would have. Because we'd seen in the first couple of days the constant horn honking, and they had some train whistles on some of the trucks, and there was just unruly behaviour on the part of these people who had come and basically occupied our downtown.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So it wasn't a concern that there were additional convoys that were coming to join to kind of expand the footprint of the original convoy?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I think there was concern, absolutely, because when you saw hundreds and then it turned out thousands of people arriving with different pickups and 18-wheelers and so on, that this was going to be bigger than any of us had imagined.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But there wasn't a discussion to try and prevent that from happening?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not in my presence, to the best of my recollection?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Now, I want to take you to a document, which is a readout of a call that you had with the Prime Minister on January 31st, and it's SSM.CAN.NSC.00002812. And so you had a call with the Prime Minister on the 31st; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how did this call come about? Did he reach out to you, or did you reach out to him?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
To be honest, I don't recall whether it was me to him or him to me. I'm not sure.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can just make that bigger so we can see. Okay. So you say, "Hi". And as we know, these are summaries of the call, it's not a transcript, but it gives you a sense for what's being said. And if we go to -- right. So JW is when you're speaking, PM is when the Prime Minister is speaking. And so the second thing -- second section there before the redacted portion, the second sentence, third sentence, you said: "These people had their time and need to move on. We have been trying to get this across to the chief of police." Do you see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you say "these people" are you speaking about the protestors?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you say: "We have been trying to get this across to the chief of police." So this is now Monday, the 31st, so right after the first weekend. And so what discussions did you have with the Chief of Police about this issue, about letting them or asking them to move on?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I was interested in what the plan of action from the police was going to be in order to clear out the downtown core because my sense was that this was not shrinking in size, as people started to go back home, it was growing in size. So everyone could see that. And I -- you know, I stressed to the police -- as you know, we can't direct the police on what to do, but certainly in conversations I had with Chief Sloly, he understood very well the importance of getting this situation resolved sooner than later because it would grow into a bigger issue.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you had discussions with Chief Sloly over that weekend or on the Monday?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sometime in that period, I don't know if it was a Sunday or a Monday, but you know, I was in contact almost on a regular basis with someone from the police service, whether it was the Chief or the Deputy, Bell.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so at some point, you told him it's time to move on, we need to get these people out of here. Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I -- as I said, I can't direct the police, but certainly I asked the questions, you know, "What is the game plan to move forward?", and he -- the Chief said that they're working on one, and I relayed that to the Prime Minister. He -- the Prime Minister wanted to get a sense of what was going on on the ground, and how this was affecting our city, in particular, our residential community and the small business community. Because as you know, we just got out of a lockout from COVID, and restaurants and businesses could start opening, and then all of a sudden we have another lockdown imposed really by the occupiers who came here to disrupt our quality of life.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And at the bottom there... If we can just move it up a little bit. No, sorry, at the bottom. Yeah. It says, "The turning point...", so right after the redacted portion, you say: "The turning point is the [T]erry [F]ox statue, the tomb, Shepard[s] of [G]ood [H]ope. People just can't fathom how this is acceptable." And so you're referring to the incidences that took place over the weekend with respect to the war -- National War Memorial and the Terry Fox statue; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, I think what was happening was disgraceful. We had some people dancing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, we had other people urinating at the Cenotaph, we had a group that went and stole meals from the Shepards of Good Hope, we had "End the Mandate" placards put on the Terry Fox statue. It was completely despicable behaviour on the part of these individuals. We welcome protestors who are respectful of the law and respectful of our communities. The vast majority of these people and that kind of behaviour were not being respectful, and I think were hurting their cause, quite frankly. When you saw, you know, the Shepards of Good Hope, who do such good work in the -- in Lower Town, the Byward Market, having people bully their way in to get a free meal, that was just abhorrent.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And further down, you say: "[Chief] of police said it's so volatile, but kept under control so far. Trucks are starting to leave, but some diehards chained themselves to this. Unfortunate for people living in residential neighbourhood. They just doing themselves a disservice.” Which is what you just said right now. “Chief of police spoke to Chief Lucki, and we need a few more sources.” Can you explain this last part? “Chief of police spoke to Chief Lucki, and we need a few more sources.” What was this discussion.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think it’s -- it should say Commissioner Lucki and a few more resources. I think they just left off R-E ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what was the discussion then?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- off resource.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the discussion around this point then?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
We need -- our police service on its own was completely outnumbered. We could not deal with it just as an Ottawa Police issue. We needed the support of the other orders of government.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so, you were aware that Chief Sloly had reached out to Commissioner Lucki by this time to ask for more resources. Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so by the Monday it was clear that OPS did not have the resources that it needed to handle this demonstration. Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so, in this call there were no specific requests for assistance from -- you requesting from the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister offering anything specific back to you. Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I did relay the fact that we needed more resources and that once we had the number -- because at that point early on we did not have the exact number that Chief Sloly required to clear out the individuals in Centretown, Lower Town, Overbrook, Forbes, as well as the ByWard market.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
But it was very clear -- I made it very clear, and the Prime Minister fully understood that the RCMP we're going to have to be involved. They obviously have a very significant presence in Ottawa in any event, responsible for the IP security and public buildings and so on.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Okay. So if we just go to last page then, just to kind of see how the call ends off. And it’s -- the Prime Minister says: “the remainders will have no choice but to incite as a counterbalance, so we all have to be careful. …we really appreciate your support for cities. …thank you for your steadfast leadership and your whole team.” And so that was the end of the call there.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. And If I can take you to OTT3855? And this is a February 3rd e-mail that you sent to City Council to update them, it looks like on the efforts of the city.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct. That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And this is now Thursday before the second weekend. And you indicate that you had a call with the Prime Minister on the 31st. If we can just go down a little bit, yeah. So and then in that third paragraph you say: “This morning, the City Solicitor and I had a discussion with the team from Go Fund Me to request that the funds raised so far remain frozen until the end of the occupation.” Can you explain how the discussion with Go Fund Me came about and what action was taken?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, as you know, the Go Fund Me campaign by the organizers was very successful, it was raising millions of dollars and that was, I think, one of the reasons why more people started to arrive thinking they would get a cut of that money for their gas, and mileage, and food and so on, if they needed places to stay. And so I was approached at some point in that time frame from the consulting firm that represented Go Fund Me in Canada, to see if I would be amenable to having a meeting with senior Go Fund Me people to discuss and to let them know that the funds they were collecting we're very much harming our city and in my opinion engaged in illegal activities. So the meeting was arranged and we had a number of people on the call. They had also spoken I believe earlier in the day, or after my call with, I think it was Chief Bell, so he gave them a more detailed situational report as to what was happening in our city, and why we felt that these funds should be frozen and ultimately sent back to the individuals, because those dollars were keeping the convoy going.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what happened after that meeting?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I can tell you during the meeting I think they underestimated how big an issue this was, and I told them this was certainly hurting the reputational -- or their reputation, because they were funding a group that was very much involved in activities that were harmful to our city and our country. And I can't recall the exact time, but a few days later I believe, there was a decision by Go Fund Me to freeze the funds, and I lauded them for doing that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was there any subsequent calls after the initial call with Go Fund Me? Did you have any more discussions with them?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't believe I did. Whether some of my staff did, that may have been the case, or with their consultant. But they also, I believe, started to send the money back to individuals.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so, if we look at the following paragraph, it says: “In the last hour, I had a very good discussion with federal Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino, where I reiterated our City’s call for additional resources to support our officers responding to this demonstration on the ground. He assured me that our request for assistance was being given the highest consideration by Commissioner Lucki, and he offered his ongoing support until we see an end to the occupation.” So by this time, February 3rd, that's the language you are using there. And when you say you reiterated the City’s call for additional resources, when did you make the original call for resources? Because this is February 3rd and you're referring to reiterating the call for resources, are you referring to the 31st call with the Prime Minister, or was there another call for resources between the 31st and February 3rd?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the very first time that I had asked for additional resources was with the Prime Minister on the phone call, and he was -- he understood completely the situation we're in. He lives in Ottawa, obviously, and he was seeing first hand the challenges our city was facing. So he was the first person that I contacted. This call with Marco Mendicino, or Minister Mendicino, I may have had another phone call with him, I can't recall. But certainly, he was very, very, well aware that we needed additional resources. He asked how many, I said that's being worked on by our chief of police. And I also indicated that we were going to reach out to the OPP as well, and that Chief Sloly who had very good contacts with municipal leaders would reach out to municipal police forces as well. And I certainly call the number of my mayor colleagues across the country, bringing them up to speed on what was happening and said that, you may be getting a call from your Chief of Police, and we hope that you can help us during this difficult time. And the municipal police forces were very, very, responsive, and we appreciate their support in our time of need.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in terms of a specific request for resources, this February 3rd call with Minister Mendicino would have been the first time that you asked for resources from -- other than in January 31st call, which was not as specific, this would have been the request that you made for additional RCMP officers?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, I don't want to mislead you. I may have had another call beforehand, but I can't recall, and I don't have notes to that effect. But we may have had another call, but certainly this call and this memo that I sent to colleagues on City Council was to deal with the immediate, and the short term, and the long term. And if you just scroll down, one of the other parallel discussions I was -- or scroll up rather -- parallel discussions I was having was with the provincial Minister of Finance, as well as a Treasury Board President, Mona Fortier and Peter Bethlenfalvy, because we knew that a number of businesses were going to be severely impacted and we needed to receive not only officers to bring the situation under control, but in the mid term we needed financial support to help those businesses that were suffering.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were there, at this time by February 3rd, provincial -- discussions with the provinces beyond the assistance to the businesses that you've discussed? Any other requests for assistance other than that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, at some point I know Chief Sloly would have been in touch with his counterpart at the OPP.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I mean with respect to your discussions, or your requests.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I may have had -- at one point I had a discussion with Minister Lisa McLeod and indicated to her we needed support, and she was very appreciative of the situation, and she said she would relay that back to her colleague, the Solicitor General.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what kind of support were you looking for in that discussion?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Boots on the ground. Police officers.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
OPP officers?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
OPP and RCMP.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
But to the province of course, OPP, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know when that call with Lisa MacLeod took place?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t recall. It was some time in that general area of when the memo went out.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so her response was ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
But she was ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- we’ll take it -- I’ll take it back and we will look at it.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, she was very helpful because she to lived in Ottawa and she was seeing the first hand. I think one of the challenges that we faced with this is that people who live away from where this terrible situation was taking place didn't really have a full -- not everyone, but some didn't have a full appreciation for how horrific this situation was. We have about 18,000 people that live in these areas. This is not just Parliament Hill. This is Centretown. This is the ByWard Market. It’s Lower Town, Vanier, Overbrook, Forbes, having an impact on a wider part of the city. And I think, you know, people started to realize this was turning into a very volatile situation when we started seeing fireworks going off, and hot tubs brought in, and the behaviour I told you about, those four or five incidents. And, you know, the public who were living here understood fully that this was a horrific situation and the sooner it got resolved, the better it was for everyone.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And at the bottom as well, if we see the end of the letter there: “A number of colleagues have suggested to me, and I have agreed, that a Special Council meeting be called to discuss the impact of the truck convoy demonstration on our residents and businesses. The Clerk will be issuing a Notice of Special meeting before the weekend for the meeting to be held […] on Monday, February 7.” So and eventually a Special Meeting was convened for the 7th. Why was that not convened sooner than the 7th? It seems that by the 7th, you’re almost 10 days into this situation.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, a number of factors, availability of individuals that the Council wanted to speak to. No sense in having a Meeting of Council if the Chief wasn’t there, if Steve Kanellakos wasn’t available. This seemed to be a date that worked well. Everyone was working around the clock, literally, trying to resolve the situation. And one of my objectives was to try to minimize the number of opportunities that we dragged the Police Chief and his senior command in because they had work to do back at their operations centre. And so this was a day that appeared to work for almost everyone, and that was the day the Clerk circulated the notice about.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And let’s speak now about the Declaration of the State of Emergency of February 6th. And I’m going to take you to OTT4231. And this is the Declaration of the State of Emergency that you issued? Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why was this done on February 6th? What was the tipping point or the reason why it was necessary at this point in time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well there were a lot of people asking, up to that point, including Members of Council, and members of the public, and members of the media, why didn’t we declare a State of Emergency on the first weekend? There’s a little bit of an urban myth or misconception about what a municipal state of emergency is. It has very little impact on public safety. It really is an administrative tool that allows the City, for instance, to bypass the procurement policy of the City of Ottawa. A good example is during the pandemic, I declared a State of Emergency and it allowed us to go and get personal protection equipment without going through a tender process of the top three and so on. So it made those kinds of decisions quicker, it allowed the City Manager to take people from one branch of the City in a different collective agreement and move them into another area. We needed people, for instance, to administer needles and do COVID-19 tests. And, you know, if you had a job that was not essential to that, we needed extra people. So I think it was, in some ways, to give some comfort to the public that, yes, we consider this an emergency, but we were constantly explaining and trying to allow people to understand that this really did not have any impact on the overall removal of individuals.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But beyond the potential measures that were made available to you as a result of this declaration, it’s also, as you say, an important signal, or it’s symbolic in a way, and it allows others to understand that the City considers that it is beyond the capacity of the City to deal with the emergency?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, but on every occasion that I’ve declared a State of Emergency, it’s been on the advice of our City Manager, and the City Manager brought this to me at that time and we had the Clerk draft the resolution and I signed it.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you seek advice prior to February 6th as to whether you should declare a State of Emergency?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I would have mentioned to Steve K, “Let me know when you think it’s necessary.” And, you know, he came to me, I can’t remember the exact day, it was probably the day before this was signed, on January 15th, I guess -- no, it’s later than that. And it was on his advice and the clerk prepared the document and I signed it and released it to the public.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so what discussions did you have with Steve Kanellakos about using this as a way to engage the Province?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well I think there was some discussion with my Chief of Staff and Steve Kanellakos that there was -- this may act as a catalyst to get the other two Orders of Government to move. I didn’t see it that way, but they felt it might act to push the Province to do their own declaration and to put more pressure on the Province to come to the table.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So I’m going to take you to ONT311. It’s a Summary Call Between Canada, Ontario, and the City of Ottawa. And I believe this is what they would refer to as situational awareness meetings. And if we could just zoom into that? And so Steve Kanellakos is present at this meeting, along with Deputy Minister Rob Stewart and others, and it says there it’s attributed to him: “Steve Kanellakos, City Manager from Ottawa, provided an update from the city’s perspective.” And in bold there: “Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson is going to declare a local emergency in the City of Ottawa at 4:30pm. The expressed intent of this declaration is to put pressure on the Premier to exercise powers to resolve this.” Based on what you said, you said that this was mainly for procurement. Is this bolded sentence overstated or was that the express intention of declaring the State of Emergency?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, my understanding was it was Mr. Kanellakos felt that this was -- would be helpful to prod the Province into being more hands on in the situation. I didn’t happen to see it that way, but I’m not disputing the fact that I believe it did help, because later on in this crisis, the Province did declare a State of Emergency under their provincial powers, and the Federal Government brought in, of course, the Emergencies Act. So did the City consider that the Province wasn’t engaged enough in finding a solution?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, Minister Blair suggested that we have a tripartite table where the Federal, Provincial, Municipal Government elected leaders could get together, share information, bring forward any new information that we should have at our disposal, and the Province rejected that. They didn’t feel it was necessary to have three Orders of Government at the political level to have this table.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so when you say that -- or when you deemed that the Province wasn’t doing enough, it was because they weren’t coming to this tripartite table? Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, a couple of things. They weren’t coming to the table and we were having difficulty convincing the Provincial officials the need to have significant more OPP officers on the ground for two reasons. First of all, at some point it was going to have to be a police operation to clean out Wellington Street and the adjoining communities, and that was important. And secondly, the -- we needed the Province on board because, as you know, municipalities are the creature of the Province. We don’t have all the powers that people think we do as Mayor, or as Council, and we need to show a united front, that all of us are legitimately concerned about the challenges facing our residential communities, our small business community, and we needed to move forward. So yes, it was frustrating that the Province was not as responsive. I can say though, in fairness, once they did get engaged, they were very good partners. The OPP was very helpful. But it was getting to that stage. And as I mentioned, I believe in our interview, the Solicitor General at the provincial level seemed to believe that there were 1,500 OPP officers on the ground, which was not true at all, and I checked with our police officials. I said, “How many OPP today?” And they said 50 to 55. So they -- the Solicitor General kept repeating that there were 1,500 police officers. You’d know if there were 1,500 OPP officers. You would see them.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
There weren’t.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’ll get to that in a second.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sure.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But I just wanted to point out that the tripartite meetings took place on February 7th, 8th, and 10th. So on the 6th of February, which is this meeting here, that would not have been a reason to want to engage the Province, because those tripartite meetings had not taken place yet, so ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, well there were tripartite meetings at the staff level and there was the tripartite group we tried to get together with the Federal Ministers, Mendicino and Blair, and myself, and we hoped Minister Jones.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to -- we'll look at those in a minute. Further down it says, "The Mayor [is --] Jim Watson is feeling the pressure and want[s] this issue to be pivoted back to Ontario and Canada. The City of Ottawa is looking for a way out." Can -- are you able to explain -- this is something that Steve Kanellakos said in a meeting, but he is saying that you're feeling the pressure and you want the issue pivoted back to Ontario and Canada. Can you expand on that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the -- of course, I was under pressure, but my bigger concern were the residents who were under much more pressure than I was, living through this hell. In terms of Steve Kanellakos indicating we wanted Ontario and Canada to be involved was that, first of all, we knew that none of the mandates that they were protesting had anything to do with the City of Ottawa or any municipality. They were all provincially run or federally run. Secondly, we did not have the resources, we didn't have enough police officers to continue doing all of the rest of the work of patrolling Ottawa streets, and as you know, we're 2600 square kilometres, so you couldn't take every officer away from Kanata and Orleans, Vanier and so on and put them in the downtown core. So pivot to Ottawa -- or pivot back to Ontario and Canada was to say please come to the table, we need your help.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if I can take you to OTT18172?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
What date is that?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
This is a February 6th email from it looks like OPS to you and to Chair Deans. So it's from James Armbruster. I believe he's with the OPP.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, it would be ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Or the OPS, sorry?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, he was my EA.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, okay. I'm sorry. And that's to you and to some other people in your office.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, I was reading, it says to James Armbruster from me on what I'm seeing.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I'm looking at the one above. But in any event, if we go down -- yeah, you're looking at the one underneath it.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, sorry, and if we go down to the original one, okay, that's -- okay. Perfect. So if we go up to see the two? So this one is from the Ottawa Police Service, John Steinbachs.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it's to you and to Diane Deans, Serge from your office and other people there from the OPS, et cetera.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it says, "Chair Deans and Mayor Watson, Please find below the list of Ottawa Police Service asks to the Federal, Provincial and Municipal levels of government that was requested yesterday by the Board. These asks are designed to assist with the management and safe conclusion of the demonstration."
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right, and what date is that?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
This is February 6. So it's ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- the day that you declared the state of emergency.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then it says, "The Chief is requesting a meeting as soon as possible to discuss. We are available this evening." And if we go down to see what the list of asks is, there's some things there for the City to do and it looks like then the Chief was asking the City to assist in several ways that are reflected there; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And one of those points, the third bullet point on the second page there, it says -- yeah, sorry, if we go up? Yeah. Where did it -- "Convene financial institutions, insurance companies, gas companies, trucking companies, trucking associations and local BIAs to restrict material and financial support to demonstrators." Can you explain what the -- what was being asked of the City in that point?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
On that particular bullet point?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's something you'd have to ask Chief Sloly because it was his request, but my understanding was that they wanted to try to see if they could stop, for instance, gas stations from filling up jerry cans because we knew that was the transportation method by members of the convoy to keep the rigs running in the cold weather. So, you know, we also had I know over the course of this period, I was invited to I think five or so meetings with different business groups, including BIAs, and it never came up at those meetings that I was at that we were asking their merchants to stop selling supplies and so on. So that's something that the Chief asked for. I'm not entirely sure what benefit it would be, but I relied on his good judgment.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was that done? Did the City take any steps towards those things?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't believe so because our number one preoccupation was to end the occupation and bring the streets back under control of the City of Ottawa. So you can only do so much. There are only so many balls in the air that you can juggle in order to get these issues resolved. But I don't believe, certainly I was not involved in contacting any financial institutions, for instance, aside from the GoFundMe discussion we had.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And in terms of insurance companies, was that part of the discussion that was being had with the province to be able to restrict the commercial licenses and insurance of the participants?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, but that may have taken place before the formal request because we were basically trying to find any mechanism or method that could help us encourage the truckers to leave. And one of the suggestions that I believe a member of Council brought to my attention was there's a separate licensing regime and insurance regime for trucks. Could those organizations through MTO, Ministry of Transportation of Ontario, actually use those tools to basically force the trucks to get out or there'd be consequences to their actions of illegally blocking our streets. And the Ministry of Transportation did not follow through on that. They didn't seem to think that was a reasonable idea or maybe they didn't think it was a good idea.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you had a call with the representatives from the Ministry of Transportation; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
It wouldn't have been me. It would have been some member of staff, but not me personally, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you were not on those calls, but it was reported back to you that they didn't think it was a good idea?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any understanding as to why they didn't think it was a good idea?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, there was -- they seemed to think that it would -- they couldn't do what we were asking them to do, so there seemed to be a bit of a contradiction in terms of what we thought was available under provincial law and what they were telling us was not available. And I think at one point, someone said it wouldn't make any difference. This was a group that was digging in and having a, you know, a paper exchange of rules and laws, and by-laws was not going to move this group at all.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then the final point that's on the top of that page there, "Daily emergency operations centre meeting[s] to coordinate whole of city response, including daily public briefings led and coordinated by the city, so that the police can focus on operations." I don't believe this was ever done. Are you able to confirm that? Did the City have daily briefings?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not public briefings. There are a number of press conferences that were held by both myself, and Chair Deans, and Chief Sloly, and the City Manager. So we did make ourselves available, not on a daily basis, when new information arrived. We weren't going to have a press conference for the sake of having a press conference if there was no new information. But there certainly were a series. I remember seeing, and I think we talked about it in an interview, a series of memos that went out over the course of the event, updating members of Council and the public.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So it was ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But this says daily public briefing, so I imagine that's for the public.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, well, I guess the public briefing would have been the press conferences that were carried on the City's social media networks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then under advocacy, it says, "Mayor to play advocacy role with other jurisdictions on below asks:" So there it talks about the 1800 officers, which you did advocate for in your letter of February 7th, coauthored by Chair Deans.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it also says on the third bullet point, "professional mediation and negotiation capacity." Can you explain what this was about? What were they asking for there?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, again, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because these are not my requests. These are the requests that were sent to Chair Deans and I in an effort to write to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Public Safety as well as the Premier and the Solicitor General to seek the 1800 additional staffing and enforcement. We were pushing the police because one of the challenges we had was up until this letter came, or this memo came from the Chief, we did not have an exact number that was being requested of the two other orders of government. So this was something that Chair Deans and I pushed for because we needed that number to go back to our federal and provincial counterparts to say, all right, you asked for a number. Here it is and here's how it's divided. So on the issue of mediation, again, I can only suggest it may have been they wanted to have some capacity to go and try to mediate the safe removal of all of the trucks, but that would be something the Chief would have to ask ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So the Chief -- was the Chief asking you then to engage a professional mediator for that purpose, to try and deescalate the situation with the protesters?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, again, I'm not sure the intent or why it was -- I think it's under advocacy, but my understanding was that these were requests for our staff. The one request that was for myself to play as really Bullet Number 1 to get those 1,800 resources.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then, if I can take you to OTT20707.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And what date is that?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
This is on February 7th. It's the next day after that email from the OPS ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- the requests. There is an email on February 7th, and it looks like... If you go down. It looks like Councillor Egli is saying: "Serge, here's a quick and dirty draft. Jean is fine with the Mayor seconding the motion." And then there is -- this is a draft of a wording for a motion, and there's a lot of "whereas, whereas", and then it says at the bottom: "Therefore, be it resolved that the Mayor supported by City Council, formally request that the Federal Government appoint an independent mediator forthwith to assist in de-escalating the protest as well as the orderly removal of the protesters and their vehicles from the City of Ottawa." So is this in -- is this the response to the request from OPS to engage a professional mediator?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't believe so. I think it may have been done almost on a parallel basis. It was -- Councillor Egli that I believe drafted it, and the Jean is a Jean, Jean Cloutier, who was going to move it. I checked earlier this week because I saw this email, I hadn't seen it before, but it never went to City Council, it was a draft. And I know that at some point in that period I had also suggested publicly would there be a role for the Federal Government to appoint a distinguished Canadian who could go in and mediate and resolve this. The idea was not supported at all by the Federal Government. I referenced it, I believe, in a CTV interview. But I don't think the two were connected, even though the subject is the same. I think Councillor Cloutier, to his credit, and Councillor Egli were trying to come up with some reasonable suggestion to try to bring and end to this. Because I think, if I can put it in context, every member of Council, whether you lived in the downtown core and represented it or not, were feeling overwhelmed and under siege by constituents and by people from across the country harassing members of Council. And I think all members of Council, to their credit, were trying to do their very best to come up with sensible ideas that they could present to us, including the Chief and the City Manager and myself and my office, to see if this would help resolve the situation. So all members of Council, in good faith, were trying to do what they thought was best. And in this particular case, I don't believe this motion, I know for a fact it didn't go to Council, so it was just a draft, and I suspect it probably didn't go to Council because the quick response I received from the Federal Government was "We're not going to appoint a mediator."
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know why they didn't want to appoint a mediator?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I can only speculate. So I shouldn't speculate, I don't know. You'd have to ask that question.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, did they tell you why? Did they say why they were not interested in this?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Again, I -- you know, I have a vague recollection that they -- that I raised it with either Minister Blair or Mendicini [sic], but I can't recall the context of why they were against it.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I'm going to take you to OTT5513. This is now February 7th, and as we saw earlier, Chief Sloly had made a request for 1,800 officers. He also -- we haven't looked at the email, but there is an email in which he sets out a chart indicating what kind of personnel he's looking for and how many?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And this is a letter, then, dated February 7th, to Premier Ford and Solicitor General Sylvia Jones. And this is a letter in which you request... If we go down. There we go. And there, you are asking for those officers.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's a little further down.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, further down on the second page, yeah. Yes.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And I believe we did send the chart to these individuals as well that the Chief had indicated ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- or put together.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we know that Chief Sloly had asked that you advocate for the resources at different levels of government.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did he ask you specifically to write this letter?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, that was the implication. He provided us with his request, because Councillor Deans and I both agreed that we needed to get something in writing because it was putting us in an awkward situation where we were having these regular meetings with federal and provincial officials, and they said, "Well, how many resources do you need?", and we didn't have an answer. So to the credit of the Chief, he put together a very thorough -- it wasn't just police officers, there were obviously other components that he had asked for, including civilian staff and public order officers, cyber investigative capacity individuals and social media forensics and financial forensics. So we wanted to put that in writing, and this letter was basically the same as the one we sent to the Federal Government as well.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we can go up. There we go. On the second paragraph there you say: "What was initially described as a peaceful protest has now turned into a siege of our downtown area." And then you say: "As of today, there are currently between 400 and 500 trucks occupying Ottawa's downtown core." Then you go on to say: "These acts and the occupation are having damaging and long-term impacts on the well-being of our residents. People are living in fear and are terrified - and they've now been subjected to the non-stop honking of large trucks for nine days, which is tantamount to psychological warfare." Then you say: "Given the scope and scale of the armada of large trucks that are now occupying our downtown core..." And this is now on the second page: "...we are writing to you to ask today for your help to secure 1800 officers to quell the insurrection that the Ottawa Police Service is not able to contain." And then further down, you say: "We must do everything in our power to take back the streets of Ottawa, and our parliamentary precinct, from the criminal activity and hooliganism that has transpired over the last nine days. We need your help to end this siege at the heart of our nation's capital and in our residential neighbourhoods and to regain control of our city." So was that description of the situation accurate as to what was happening on the ground as of February 7th?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely. You know, I think if you just go back and look at the media coverage, and the media themselves were being harassed during this whole period of time, we now know that a number of children had to miss chemo and radiation appointments at CHEO. The residents living on those streets, having these horns honk literally 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, plus the diesel fumes, plus they're roasting a pig on one street, bonfires, lighting off fireworks, having a dance party, it was showing complete disrespect for the people who lived in the City of Ottawa. And I put that wording in very strongly to let the two other orders of government know that we needed their help. Our city's back was against the wall, we had this outrageous behaviour by people who seemed to have no respect for private property, public property, or the well-being of the citizens of Ottawa. And my job as Mayor was to speak out and say, "We have to end this, and the only way we're going to end it is with a significant increase and boost in the number of police officers."
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you say, "and to regain control of our city", you're conveying here that you, you, the greater you, I suppose, you, OPS, the City, OPS had lost control of the city?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, it was teetering on loss of control. We lost control in the red zone because we couldn't even contain jerry cans going in. You know, in one or two incidents the Chief explained to me the police tried to stop them and then they were swarmed by a hundred truckers. And one of the things I think is vitally important to remember in this whole terrible situation was that while there was a high level of frustration on the part of the public, rightfully so, on the part of our Council and City Staff and myself, at the end of the day there were no deaths and there were no serious injuries. And so the Chief, in his wisdom, and I agree with him, was not going to barge in there without necessary resources to make sure that the one shot they had, the one opportunity they had to actually get in there and clean up Wellington Street and Kent and O'Connor and the Byward Market and the baseball stadium was to do it with the necessary resources to move in quick, swiftly, and that's exactly what they did, and I appreciate the police doing that. But you're quite right, on the red zone it was lawlessness. People were having parties, there were open fires, and they were firing off fireworks that were a fire hazard to heritage buildings in the downtown core. They were harassing people in restaurants, tearing off their masks. These are not sort of made-up stories, these are all documented during the convoy occupation. And so yes, we -- we're not swallowing our pride by saying we -- you know, we could do it on our own. We needed help, and we needed the help of the other two orders of government.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if I can take you now to OTT6057. And this is another letter, dated February 7th, and this is now directed to the Prime Minister and to Minister Mendicino; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it's essentially the same letter.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And -- now I understand that discussions with the Prime Minister and with Minister Mendicino were ongoing. The 7th is the same day as there was a first tripartite Ministerial meeting, on the 8th there was as well, and on the 10th. So did you receive a formal response to this letter from the Prime Minister or Minister Mendicino?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I’d have to go back and look in files. Often these letters go out, they’re publicly made and you necessarily get a response.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
What we were looking for is not a nice type written response. We wanted action. And we believe that -- I certainly believe that this letter acted to break the log jam to put in writing, for the first time, our specific requests that we needed help.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, the Solicitor General did respond to your letter on February 8 -- sorry, on February 10? Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I recall her sending, I think, a two-page letter to I believe it was both Councillor Deans and myself.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If I could take you to ONT851? And this is the response dated February 10. We can see there it’s from the Solicitor General of Ontario. And it’s to you and to Chair Deans as well: “Thank you for your letter, also addressed to the Honourable Doug Ford, Premier of Ontario, requesting additional officers…” And then she says: “Public safety is a top priority for this government. The Ministry of the Solicitor General is committed to working with our policing and community partners to provide them with the resources and tools they need to keep Ontario’s communities safe and resilient.” Then she talks about: “The right to peacefully protest is core to our Canadian identity - peaceful protests are a cornerstone of a healthy democracy. However, criminal behaviour is never tolerated, and hatred or intolerance must be condemned by all.” And she says, the last paragraph at the bottom: “We have been encouraging all those participating in the Ottawa protests to govern their actions in a way to ensure they are peaceful and respectful to the community and to those charged with keeping the peace.” And then she says: “Regarding […] request for significant additional […] resources, please note that I have shared your correspondence with [OPP] Commissioner Thomas Carrique. Commissioner Thomas Carrique and [RCMP] Commissioner Brenda Lucki will continue to liaise with Chief Peter Sloly, Ottawa Police Service, to determine how policing partners can provide support based on available policing resources and the operational plan proposed by the Ottawa Police Service.” So what was -- what’s your reaction to this letter? Did this satisfy what you were looking for in the letter that you sent on February 7th?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. But I think, you know, as a former Minister myself, in the Provincial Government, this is the kind of letter that, you know, is pretty much a template. You thank them, you explain the situation, and you are told that, rightfully so, the Minister can’t direct the OPP on what to do, but she forwarded it to the Commissioner of the OPP. So you know, we knew at some point we would get through to the Province and they would come and help us. And when they did, it was very much appreciated, and the OPP did a remarkable job. But, you know, there’s -- the level of frustration that we had was that it’s fine to forward this to the Commissioner of the OPP, but by that time, the Commissioner would have known what our request is, because Chief Sloly was in pretty regular contact with both Commissioners.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So did the Solicitor General commit to do anything, either in this letter or in any discussions that you had with her? Any kind of specific action that the Solicitor General was committing to take?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, again, when I had a call with her, I can’t recall the date, but the Premier and the Solicitor General were both on the call, and they indicated that they would not be participating in the tripartite group, which was disappointing, but it’s their call. But I reiterated with the Premier on I believe the two calls that I had, that it was essential that we get police officers here as quickly as possible. And the whole issue, as I talked about earlier, the Solicitor General was under the impression that there were 1,500 officers assigned to Ottawa, which was not the case. I think what may have happened was that the Minister or the OPP were, you know, giving a cumulative number, you know, 50 here, and then maybe 40 came back, and then another 60 arrived, so you count 50 plus 60. And the other thing is, I think you have to keep in mind, in this period, was the Windsor situation, which was viewed as a higher priority, given the billion dollar a day trade blockade that was taking place in Windsor.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M’hm.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And so we certainly saw through the news a significant OPP presence in the Windsor area. And I -- you know, I thought at the time, well, you know, I wish they were here, because we think we’re just as important as Windsor, but I thought, well, at the very least, they did a very good job in Windsor, and once that’s wrapped up, they’ll be sending those officers to Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you expected that the Windsor issue, and by that, we mean the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge, would be resolved before Ottawa became a priority to become resolved? Is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. And that’s in fact what happened.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if I can take you to ONT858? Now, this was a letter that was not sent to you. It’s the next day after the response from the Solicitor General, the kind of template letter, as you described it. And this is now February 11th. And this is directed to Commissioner Carrique, and the Solicitor General says: “This letter is being sent regarding the protest activity occurring in Windsor…” So this is the Windsor situation you were talking about.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
“The Government of Ontario is proposing that a meeting occur within an agreeable time period, between a select group of protest leadership and representatives of the province to allow their issues to be heard. To move forward with our offer to schedule a meeting, all protesters must leave the protest site immediately, denounce all unlawful activity and encourage a period of quiet. This means no unlawful, unpeaceful, unsafe protest activity can occur between the time of acceptance of this offer until the meeting takes place. Please share this with the protest leadership and note that immediate agreement is required. Any time delay in acceptance will negate this offer.” So in this letter, the Solicitor General is offering that the Province will meet with a group of protestors in Windsor if they leave the protest site immediately and denounce all activity. Are you aware if the Province ever offered to meet with protestors in Ottawa?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I’m not aware of any such request.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And is it fair to say that that option was never discussed either with the Premier or with Solicitor Jones at any of your discussions?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And actually, in fairness, I have not seen this letter. I don’t believe it was CC’d to me. So it’s ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No, ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- the first I’ve seen it.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- that’s right. It was not a letter that was sent to you, but the question was whether this type of offer that was being made with respect to the protestors in Windsor, if that ever came to your attention, if that ever happened with respect to the protestors in Ottawa. And what I hear you saying is that, no, that never ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, that was never an option that was presented to me or anyone in my office.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If I can take you now to -- I’m going to take you to the first tripartite meeting that occurred on February 7th. And it is PB.NSC.CAN2335. And if we go down to the bottom of that page? Yeah, right there. Okay. So this is -- my understanding is that this is a read out of the first of the three tripartite Ministerial meetings that took place with you, Minister Blair, Minister Mendicino, I think -- I believe Mr. Kanellakos attended as well, and at times, Deputy Minister Rob Stewart was in attendance as well?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, it was all done virtually.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes. And BB there is Bill Blair, and in the second line, he says: “Spoke to PM last night - felt it was important to convene table, all of them have already been working well with city officials.” And so it looks like there, the Prime Minister felt that it was important to convene this tripartite table with everybody at the table so that issues could be discussed. And if we look at -- MM is Minister Mendicino, and in the third line, he says: “We have confirmed 250 Mounties have been deputized.” He says: “We have been timely and responsive in putting our response together Minister Jones will want to have a discussion with what they can contribute…” So I understand that he’s saying here that they have made 250 RCMP officers available? Is that your reading of that too?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we go to the next page, you say -- in the first line, you say “150 already preassigned." And are you talking about RCMP officers here?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You say, "Not on Wellington Street or Kent Counted as part of the total, but this doesn't help our foot soldiers with OPS Down to 100 spread over three shifts over eight hours, [this] isn't a lot Our request is significant -- biggest crisis facing our city, we are filled with angst." So what are you trying to convey in this section here?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I have to say, Minister Mendocino was very reproachable and reasonable to deal with in the many opportunities I had to deal with him. He understood the file. But we had a disagreement in terms of what the -- I'll call it 250, I guess, officers, you know, on the ground as the federal government was saying. They were on the ground in Ottawa, but they were assigned 50 to West Block, which was the new centre block, 50 to Rideau Cottage and 50 to Rideau Hall. So out of the 250 or 257, you remove 150 right away because those individuals stationed at West Block, Rideau College [sic] and Rideau Hall were not helping Centretown or the residential area of Centretown or the ByWard Market or Overbrook-Forbes. So, you know, it was a bit frustrating because, you know, when I read through this, once you get down to 100 spread over 3 shifts of 8 hours a day, it's not a lot of officers. And so while we appreciated every time we saw a Mountie or we saw an OPP officer, we needed the large number of 1800 to get the situation under control and kick these yahoos out of our city who were disrupting the quality of life of the people of Ottawa. So, you know, at the end of the day, fast forward, we got what we wanted, and we appreciate the federal government and the provincial government's support. We wanted it sooner because this thing should not have lasted three weeks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then further down in the middle of the page it says, "Watson," that's you, "on tripartite table -- has the province agreed to this?" And Bill Blair says, "Both of us have reached out ([Marco Mendocino] and I) we are working on it. She wasn't able to join today unfortunately." And "she" would be the Solicitor General?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. "Will continue to engage to encourage them to join these talks." And then you say, "Province is very reluctant to be a part of what is going on Premier -- line was "anything you need, I will be there for you". I have gone to Sylvia Jones with that message The protesters are digging in, tried to light a fire for example They are misleading people on social media" So what is the sentiment that you're conveying there?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, disappointment that the province didn't want to take part in the tripartite. And when I had that conversation with Minister Jones and the Premier on that phone -- I think it was a phone call or Zoom. I can't recall, to be honest. The Premier was adamant that he did not feel it would be useful to have three levels of politicians sitting around a table.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did he say why he didn't think that was going to be -- that wasn't necessary or helpful?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, I think he felt it would be a waste of time. You know, I -- you know, when he said that, I was quite frustrated with him. He said, "Look at, what's it going to accomplish? A bunch of people sitting around a table talking and making decisions." And I said, "Well, that sounds like a cabinet meeting." And he didn't like that, but the end of the day, it was his call. If he wasn't going to go to -- force his Minister to go to the meeting or not go to the meeting, he just said they're not going to be part of it. So as I said, now in fairness to the Premier, when he did engage, it worked. We had the police officers and the OPP, we had the RCMP, and we were all on the same book, but this thing should have been resolved in week one, not week three.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when did you see engagement from the province? When did you start seeing that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'd have to look through my notes, but it was, you know, I think probably sometime by the end of the second week of the protest, sometime in that period.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So we know that the province declared a state of emergency on February 11th. Would you say that they were engaged before that time or that's the point of time when they became engaged?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, notwithstanding the fact they didn't want to participate in the tripartite, they were obviously available to us. And, you know, as I mentioned, you know, at the local level, federally, I had very good liaison and connection with Minister Yasir Naqvi, the MP for Ottawa Centre; Mona Fortier, the President of Treasury Board -- I think she was in a different portfolio at that point; and Minister McLeod. So we were having ongoing discussions at the political level, and all three of those and other elected officials were acting as a very good conduit for our requests back to their political establishments. And I can't give you an exact time when the province was more engaged, but they were always engaged. They just weren't at the tripartite table. And I think certainly after Windsor, they recognized the next big problem is Ottawa and they better, you know, get there as soon as possible because this thing was close to swirling out of control. And what we were seeing was every weekend, people were treating this like it was some sort of a rave, or a party, or something, and arriving. And there were DJs, and loud sound systems, and racist flags, and desecration of our National War Monument, and I think -- you know, I can't give you the exact date, but eventually, the OPP came on board. Eventually, we got the RCMP. But as I said, this thing frustrated me because, you know, the public were saying, "Well, why don't you tell the police to do this?" And as we all know, or most people know, in our society, a politician cannot by law direct a police service on operational matters. So we have to work at the political level to do whatever we can to get some resolution to a situation that was extremely hurtful to thousands of people.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if I can take you now to another document SSM.NSC.CAN.2052? And I believe this is a readout of the second tripartite meeting, and it looks like the participants on the first page are Minister Mendocino, Minister Blair, you -- if we go down a little bit, yeah -- and it looks like Chief Sloly was in attendance. Do you recall him attending one of the tripartite meetings?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So then on the first page, you say, "Why no SOLGEN [in] attendance?" I suppose that's Minister Jones, Solicitor General ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay. I see that, yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, and then Minister Mendocino says, "No word back." So at this point, you had expected that Ontario would have been at this table; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I -- you know, I don't know the sequence of dates as to whether -- you know, because I did have that conversation with the Premier where he rejected the idea, but, you know, I know that the federal Ministers were also trying to get the Solicitor General to engage on the tripartite table, which she declined.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, this may assist because then you say, "I am speaking to Premier tomorrow." So you probably spoke to him then on February 9th.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I had at least two calls with the Premier, so you're probably correct in the sequence of events.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then you say, "Will ask that his Minister be at the table." And if we go to where it says Blair, "on Ontario involvement. I know Marco's been having good conversations with [Ontario]. They are worried about being visible and then being asked about what the province is doing." Do you know -- what was the discussion around that point, they are worried about being visible? Can you expand on what the discussion was there?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I really don't recollect what the reference to visible or invisible was.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So do you know what Ontario's concern is? It says they are concerned about being visible and being asked about what the province is doing. You can't shed any light?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I can only speculate.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So I don't really know what -- -
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sure.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- was going through their mind at that point. They certainly knew that they were more than welcome to the table. And they had had our letter from Councillor Deans and I with the specific request and the breakdown ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- the officers needed.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then the Chief gives a breakdown of what's been going on, the breakdown of the resources, what they've been doing. And then on page 3, so it says on page 3, at the very top, "Public safety risk is higher on RIDEAU. It's being contained by a..."
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Where is this?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
On the very top of page 3.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay. Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It says, "Public safety risk is higher on RIDEAU. It's being contained by [...] QC criminal organization and they are radicalized elements as well. There is some negotiations ongoing leading to movement and that's 48 hours away. If we had resources tonight we [can] move on that tonight." And Minister Mendocino says, "confirm Rideau is ahead of Wellington?" So my understanding that this is in terms of clearing areas, that Rideau and Sussex would be ahead of Wellington in terms of an area to clear, because of the criminal activity that's being described here. Is that your understanding as well?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. And my understanding, because I was briefed on this, was that the Chief indicated there were -- criminal elements I believe were involved with the biker gang community in Quebec, and they were blockading the corner of where Rideau, Wellington, Sussex, and Colonel By connected. It was also -- had shut down, as you know, the Rideau Centre which was a major economic generator, as well as a lot of small restaurants and shops along Rideau Street and the ByWard Market.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And then Sloly says: “Yes, it's blocking a hospital route, etc, high risk to public safety. When we have resource reliability we will be able to move.” So here he is indicating that that area is blocking hospital route and therefore a priority for clearing it out. Is that your understanding as well?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, and also it's a major transit hub for both STO and OC Transpo as well.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And a lot of small businesses in that area.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then further down, Sloly says: “For every action we do, there is a counter reaction that can exceed our resources. We saw that in Coventry. Our public request for more [than] 1800 more people resulted in the activity in Windsor, plus a national call for protesters to drive to Ottawa so they can outnumber even increased police presence.” So do you recall what Sloly was saying here about the public request for 1,800 officers, did he see that as a concern that that request was publicly made?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, what I think we were trying to do was to keep that number confidential because we didn't want to show our hand, or the police’s hand as to how many resources were coming in. But I don't know when the 1,800 came out, it may have come out of the Police Services Board or a question from a Member of Council, you know, you couldn't keep it suppressed forever. But you know, I certainly was not concerned with protesters coming all the way from Windsor. What my preoccupation was to get the police officers that had quelled the situation in Windsor to get to Ottawa as quickly as possible. I think his point is it was a bit of a game of whack a mole. When they’d sort of resolve one situation another thing would flare up. A good example of that was the shack that was being built near the canal and the NAC in Confederation Park, this permanent structure where it was a food distribution point, and it was very, very, unsafe. There was propane, open fires, gasoline, all stored in this area, and our Fire Chief and fire service said this is a tinderbox that could explode. So you know, we had to request from the NCC, because it was their property, to move in. They eventually did move in and tore all of that down, but then people started to come back again. So it was one of these great frustrations that people had where you've got one thing resolved and then you moved on, you just didn't have the resources to keep enough police services there to ensure that a flare wouldn't happen again. So it all boiled down to, we needed more boots on the ground.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so then Bill Blair says, “have you looked at traffic laws etc?” So he seems to be suggesting to use existing laws to deal with this.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, the police have the responsibility for the Highway Traffic Act, you’re correct. And you know, police can issue tickets for bylaws, parking and so on, but we had you know, I think the figures are in the documentation, there were thousands of tickets that were issued, hundreds of people that were charged and arrested. But we couldn't, for instance, send unarmed bylaw officers into a very volatile situation to hand out parking tickets. If police were being swarmed, you know, certainly you can expect even worse treatment of individuals who are not given the proper training to deal with a confrontation of that nature.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I would not want to send a friend or foe into that red zone, or into the area where the Quebec biker group was.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And at the bottom -- oh, sorry. Yes.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
You know, I just would -- you know, I wouldn't in good conscience what to force bylaw officers who are not geared to dealing with angry unruly mobs, into a situation where their safety could be in danger.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And Chief Sloly alludes to this at the bottom. He says: “it’s a challenging situation to enforce. Just yesterday 100 people surrounded 30 officers when they apprehended an individual with a gas can and we're almost overcome. We need extra public order. Bylaw[s] aren’t my control.” So he's essentially saying existing by laws, existing resources is not helpful to end the situation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then you say: “‘show me the mounties’. We need to come out of the meeting with the down payment on resources…What will you commit to?” And then Minister Mendicino says: “there is a 5pm RCMP call with the city I believe. We need to have the province present on these calls. OPP will play [a] critical role.” And then you say: “it's hard for me to blast the province when I don't have a commitment from the feds.” So explain that comment there.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, there was a level -- we were a bit like the meat in the sandwich. We were trying to get both orders of government to provide their national and provincial police services to the City of Ottawa, and the numbers that the Chief and his command team required to get this issue resolved. And we knew, you know, if you go back and look at the sequence of events from week one, to week two, to week three, we started to see a lot more action on week two than we did in week one. And what was important I think from my perspective was, you know, we all had a skin in the game in the sense that we had a police force, the OPP is a provincial police force, and the Mounties are the federal police force. And we need it all to be working and following the same script, because the last thing we needed was a bunch of distractions where you know, they don't agree, and they are fighting and squabbling. You know, at the end of the whole process when the police finally did move in and they have the 1,800, I believe it went up to 1,900, it was in my opinion -- and I'm not a policing expert -- but a very good case study on how to resolve a situation relatively quickly. They moved in, I believe on the Friday, they had the notices attached to all the vehicles on Thursday, and most of the work was done on Saturday, and then the last of it cleaned up on Sunday. And so, my point was I can't go and start criticizing the province if you still haven't given me a commitment for the number of officers we needed from the RCMP. Now, to get back to my point on sequence, I understand, you know, I think a lot of public would say, well, why weren’t there more police here more quickly? We had police from Vancouver, Calgary, you know, all over the country, municipal forces, the Mounties had to ship people in from all parts of the country, and that takes time, there's logistics to that. That's why I wish that had started two weeks ago, at the end of week one instead of at the end of week two. But at the end of this process, there was a logistical challenge to get that number of officers, most of whom had to fly or drive to get to Ottawa. We had to put them up, this is an expensive undertaking, we had to make sure they had proper food, that had to be sworn in, those Mounties that were coming in, because they didn't have jurisdiction on municipal grounds as a Mountie, but the OPP did. So there were a lot of things that took time, so I wish I could have snapped my finger and said, let's have 1,800, get them in there and end this nonsense. But that was not the case because it took, you know, four, five, six days. When they finally ramped up and they had the 18 to 1,900 individuals it was a very good show of leadership, and a very good show of the professionalism of the police officers. And I repeat this, because I think this this gets lost, we'd be having a much different Commission and discussion if someone had been shot and killed or seriously injured. That did not happen, and that is good, I think, credit to the police officers on the ground in miserable conditions. As you recall, it was freezing, February, ice all over the place, and you know, they cleaned it out, and I give great credit to our first responders and others who worked very hard, paramedics, fire service, by law, public works, OC Transpo. It was all hands on deck. And I know the public wanted us to move faster, and I empathize with what they were going through, but at the end of the process I think we have to remember that there was not -- these things are tinderboxes, you see them in other jurisdictions where it flares up and you see the tragedy of, you know, unprofessionalism taking hold.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But as you mentioned, the municipality is a creature of the provincial statute, and here you're saying you want a commitment from the federal government, but you haven't secured commitment from the provinces, and isn't that the proper sequence? As a municipality, to go to the provinces, and then the provinces can then subsequently, you know, push that request up to the federal government. Why was that sequence not being followed here?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, in fairness, I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other in many respects. You know, whether we get the province to agree first or the federal government, we're a little different as a city, because we are the nation's capital. We have a large RCMP presence as result of headquarters being here, the VIP protection detail, protecting federal buildings and so on. So even though we're dependent on the province, we're equally dependent on the federal government as our largest employer and the group that pays the most in payments in lieu of taxes. So the reality is they were -- I would consider them equal partners during this crisis. I wasn’t going to go through the niceties and protocol and say, “Well, we’ll just keep hammering the Province until they agree and then we’ll go to the Feds.” We were trying to do it at the same time on two different tracks to get them both to agree, which eventually they did, but it took some time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
More time than I liked.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And did anybody within the federal government, either Minister Blair, Minister Mendicino, the Prime Minister indicate to you that by not going first to the provinces to secure that kind of commitment, that there was a delay in procuring those resources as a result of not following what you called, “The niceties”?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t believe that was the case. Certainly, the federal Ministers asked me to, you know, communicate with the Premier, and I had a pretty good rapport with the Premier and, you know, as many people know, he’s very accessible on his phone and takes calls quite quickly. And he - - you know, he was, I think he was sincere when he said, “You know, anything you need.” But we needed to translate that into actual action.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And so, you know, I was asked by Mr. Mendicini [sic] to raise the issue of OPP officers, and that’s when I said, “Well, I can’t go and keep pointing a finger at the Province when you haven’t delivered your end of the bargain.” They eventually did, and we’re grateful for that because that ended the blockade.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you didn’t understand from anybody in the federal government that you were following -- that they thought you were following the wrong process by going directly to them.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, it was never once raised that, you know, “Well, don’t talk to us, you’re a creature of the Province.”
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, fair enough.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That never happened.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If I can take you to SSM.CAN.NSC2837? And this is a readout of the call with the Prime Minister on February 8. And so you recall you had a discussion with the Prime Minister on this day?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. I’m just looking for my notes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
It’s February 8th?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we can zoom into that? Yeah, February 8. Yeah, thank you.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Just trying to ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll go down to the -- kind of the meat of it. Yes, a little bit down more. There we go.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry; I’m not seeing it on the 8th on my chronology. But if you have it, I’ll believe you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, it should be on the screen there, February 8, ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- a call -- a readout of the call with the Prime Minister. And if we go to the second page, yeah, you say -- well, the Prime Minister asks how you’re doing. You say: “A challenge for everyone. Still a pretty unstable situation. Nasty people out there that just don't represent Canada. Reminds me of the republican party down south. Can't reason with them, so vulgar, and hateful attacking people, ripping masks off, honking their horns. It's not over yet, and I appreciate...”
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just, you might slow down a bit for the interpreters. I’m just worried that ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, okay, sorry. I’m just aware of the time, but, yes, you’re right. Let’s slow down for the interpreters. “It's not over yet, and I appreciate that I had a really good conversation with Marco and Bill. We have a table with the PT this afternoon at 4:30,...” Do you know what the reference to the PT? Is that just the tripartite, or what’s the PT; do you know?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I’m assuming it’s the Province. Usually you think of PT as provincial, territorial, but...
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. “...and hopefully more resources from you on RCMP...” Then you say: “Ford is just staying away from this, but I want to bring him into the tent.” So when you say, “Ford is staying away from ‘this’”; what is the “This”? Is it ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, it’s the tripartite table that he didn’t think was helpful.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then the Prime Minister says: “Have they (province) indicated they will be there at 4:30?” You say: “It’s been set up by Bill's office. Slyvia [sic] Jones is the name on it. She has been disingenuous saying there are 1400 opp, bul [sic] that's not true. I spoke to Ford yesterday, and he said anything you want, so I'm going to hold his words to it.” So this was the issue that you had raised about the 1,400 OPP officers; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. I think it was 1,500 but close to 1,400, correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So either 14 or 1,500.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And on the Sylvia Jones, her name was on it, but she did not participate.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So she was on the invite, is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then you ask about resource, and the Prime Minister says: “One of the challenges is that it goes In steps. The first step is to go to the OPP, then RCMP. It's difficult for us to say what we need to do directly until we have a better idea of what the province is doing. That's why this table is so important.” So can you explain what the Prime Minister told you here?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I think he was alluding to the fact that it would have been helpful to have the Province -- you know, it’s like a three-leg stool; if you only have two legs on it, it’s not that sturdy. You need all three; the provincial, municipal, and federal orders of government, number one. And I just think, you know, during a crisis, from a leadership point of view, the more information you have, the better to share with your partners. We’re not in opposition to one another, but we need all three to be singing from the same hymn book, as they say. So my interpretation of that on that call with the Prime Minister was that he felt that we needed to continue to put pressure on the OPP and the Province -- not the OPP, but the Province to get the OPP to come in good numbers, just as they did in Windsor. I think Windsor was wrapped up relatively quickly, and there was the situation in a small town in Alberta where there was a fairly large RCMP presence. We needed both of those police services on board in order to move in. The police from Ottawa cannot do it on their own, and having 50 OPP and another 50 or 100 RCMP was not going to cut it. We needed the 1,800 total.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so when he says this: “...goes in steps. The first step is to go to the OPP, then RCMP.” Did you understand him to be saying that the proper order of operations was not being followed?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I wouldn’t interpret that. I think normally, in the normal course of events, you know, for instance, the declaration of a state of emergency or requesting military, there is that process where you have the Municipality ask the provincial government, who ask the Minister of National Defence. We did that, for instance, during the flooding, I believe, in 2017, 2019 where the military were very helpful to come in and help. But from my perspective, this was completely different. We weren’t -- this is not a regular, you know, situation; this is a very unique situation. And, again, I challenge anyone to come up with any time in our recent history in the last two generations where this kind of a -- you know, an occupation took place for a prolonged period of time. So, you know, I think he was referencing probably the normal course of events is that we would normally go through the OPP and up the chain of command. But we had requested, based on the letters Councillor Deans and I sent to both orders of government, and it was very clear that we needed both of them to respond as quickly as possible with action and not words.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So Minister Mendicino and Deputy Minister Stewart, as we saw yesterday, was very -- they were both very active in reaching out and offering their assistance and asking what the City needed. On the provincial side, was Di Tommaso or Laurie LeBlanc or Sylvia Jones, were they also reaching out proactively to see how they could help?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, we knew what help we wanted, and they knew what help we needed because we sent the letter. So they were fully aware of our request and specific demand.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So you weren’t hearing them proactively like you were from the others?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. Again, you know, I think you know, I only had, I believe, two or three calls with the Premier, and I think only one of those was with Minister Jones so I don’t recall -- in fairness, I don’t know why they would be asking us what we need when, in fact, we told them what we needed in that letter to the Premier and to the Minister.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And then the Prime Minister says: “But on the Ottawa policing side, you have seen, as II [sic] have,...”
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry; where is that? Which paragraph?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So we’re now further -- the last paragraph at the bottom. There; now it’s in the middle. It’s the Prime Minister; it’s in the middle of the page, “but on the policing side...” It’s on the second paragraph of the Prime Minister’s ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay, I see that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
“But on the Ottawa policing side, you have seen, as II [sic] have, some concerns on how things were handled from the beginning, how is your relationship with the police chief and how are you guys working together? There are moments [when] you are saying one thing and he is saying another, is there anywhere we can help around that?” Now, the Prime Minister here seems concerned that you and Chief Sloly were delivering different messages. Do you have a sense for what that concern was?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t. And I don’t believe I asked for clarification. I had confidence, full confidence in Chief Sloly. He was a relatively new Chief, as you know, to the City of Ottawa, but he had extensive experience as a deputy chief in Toronto, and in particular, with some large events, I think it was either the G7 or the G20 meetings that took place in Toronto. So I can't recall where Chief Sloly and I were not on the same page. You know, most of the press conferences dealt with police matters, so he was the lead in it, and I would be scrummed, for instance, after a Council meeting of when we had a Zoom call of any nature. But I don't recall any rift that we had. I think one of the things was, you know, I was probably very impatient at how slow the process was going to get the police officers and how slow it took to get the actual breakdown as to what the Chief needed. So I may have said, you know, in public, that I wanted to see this letter go off to the two orders of government much more quickly, and he may have had a different opinion because, you know, he sent it when he sent it.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the Prime Minister says he had some concerns with how things were handled from the beginning, and he said, "you have seen, as I have, some concerns." What were those concerns?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the concerns were what happened to our intelligence system, both at the three orders of government, that we did not have a better sense that these individuals were going to come and stay a long period of time. Why were so many vehicles allowed to enter what I consider the most significant historic street in the history -- in the country because it's the street that houses our Parliament buildings? And why the roads were not blocked off when we started to see an increase in the number of trucks coming down the street and parking on King Edward? And I think almost every Canadian has that same questions. Why were these allowed to happen? And it's easy to be, you know, talking about hindsight and looking in the rear-view mirror. I think this thing came about, and it just kept growing and growing, and we collectively, all three orders of government and the police, did not respond quick enough, and we allowed that major street, and led into the residential streets, to be taken over by a group of people that had no respect for the law and no respect for the people of our city.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So when you say all three levels of government had erred in this way in letting them in, what could the City have done to prevent that situation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, again, I'm not an expert on policing matters, but the first thing should have been was to, you know, once we saw a number of vehicles arriving on Wellington Street, getting in there with a jersey barrier and shut off Wellington Street. That would have pushed them onto other roads. But my understanding, from the discussions that I saw taking place in the media, was that the prize pig was Wellington Street. They wanted to have Wellington Street, a flat bed truck and a podium and a sound system to denounce the Federal Government. So if they couldn't have that, going onto Queen or Albert or Slater, not much of a backdrop on those streets. So this was very much, I think their intention was to go in and have them, with these vulgar flags and swastikas and confederate flags and so on, swirling all over the place, with the backdrop of Parliament Hill like they'd taken over the country.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And -- so -- but if we go back to that time, there were no discussions with Chief Sloly that you had with him about blocking access to the downtown area; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. Again, you know, that would've been handled at the staff level. You know, as you know, the staff, I think By-law and Public Works, would be responsible for blockading physically the street, but you would need a police presence there because you had to maintain a corridor, as they do now. If you go down to Wellington Street, there's still a corridor where an ambulance or a firetruck can get through. But you're quite correct, you know, the challenge we all faced was that this thing came, we didn't think it was going to be as big as it did. And I've had conversations with other mayors who said, "you know what, we learned lessons from you." You know, Toronto, I think handled the situation, and the mayor told me, Mayor Tory, that, you know, we were the guinea pig of these protests and it allowed them to get their act together at the start of the issue because they saw what -- the pattern of activity, the truckers were doing here in Ottawa. And as a result, they were able to secure tow trucks quickly and they were able to close off access points to Queens Park, and the same thing happened in Quebec City. So you know, these mayors, you know, learned lessons from us, and if it had happened in another jurisdiction, I think we would've acted differently and quickly to secure Wellington Street as quickly as possible.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then you say in response to the Prime Minister's suggestion that maybe there is some concerns about how things are being handled in your relationship with the Chief, you say, "[O]ne thing was when he said...", and "he" is the Chief; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
"...it's not a police solution, but it is a police solution, I think he is just a bit frustrated everything is coming down on him. But that doesn't make sense, this is a police matter. I have been trying my very best to back him up every day, as you know PM now is not the time to change courses, we have to do our best to support him." And so when you say now is not the time to change courses, are you speaking about -- well, what are you speaking about?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, it's not the time to change the leadership of the police service, namely the Chief. But if you go back, I just wanted to -- you know, that was one of the frustrations I did have with Chief Sloly when he said it was not a -- this is not going to be a police solution. And I think a lot of people were sort of scratching their head, and they said, "Well, if it's not a police solution, how are you going to solve it?" These individuals, you know, by and large you could not argue rationally or sensibly with. They were emotionally charged, angry people from all parts of the country. And I just thought that was a strange statement to make. But again, you know, as I said, I very much backed the Chief, and I thought, given the situation he found himself in, he was doing the very best he could to manage a lot of different groups, his officers, two other orders of government, the Police Services Board, City Council, residents. It was a very stressful time for everyone, I'm sure self included. But you know, I don't know at that point if there was some discussion about whether to remove the Chief or not, I certainly don't recall it. Later on, yes, because obviously he did in fact leave the police service, I can't recall how many, I think it was on the 15th.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
He left on the 15th.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
15th; correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So on that point, did you ever have any discussions with anybody, either within the provincial government or the federal government, about Chief Sloly's leadership and whether or not there should be a change in course?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, not with the -- to the best of my knowledge, not with the federal government, although I do recall some comments that Minister Blair made because he knew Chief Sloly because Minister Blair used to be the Chief of the Toronto Police, but I can't recall the context or what was said about that. I know, for instance, during the call I had with Minister Jones and the Premier, they expressed some concern about the Chief's plan or lack of plan to get this issue resolved. And you know, again, I suspect Premier Ford knew Chief Sloly from his days as a Toronto City Councillor, but it didn't go farther than I think there was -- Minister Jones made some reference to the fact that she was hearing that things were not operating at the Operations Centre as well as they should be, and there was some conflict and division.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, at the bottom, the Prime Minister says: "[L]isten, yes, you can say the federal government will be there with more resources, but again, the thing that frustrates me, and everyone is conflated..." And then there's some inaudible part. And then he says: "[B]ut Doug Ford has been hiding from his responsibility on it for political reasons as you highlighted, and important that we don't let them get away from that, and we intend to support you on that." So what was your understanding of the political reasons of why Premier Ford, according to the Prime Minister, was hiding from his responsibility?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I can't speculate on what the Prime Minister said, but I think I shared his frustration that they wouldn't participate in the tripartite, we couldn't get a clear answer as to whether they were going to support the number of officers that we needed, and you know, the Premier did not come to Ottawa during the occupation. I think there was a sense by some in the community "Why is the Premier not here?", but in fairness, you know, sometimes when you bring a leader into a situation it causes more disruption because you need extra police and so on. But you know, we had an open line of communication with the Premier, but I felt that -- I think he was probably more comfortable not getting into the mix of this until they were able to come up with the number of officers that he could announce were supporting our officers.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But the Prime Minister here is saying that you're saying that it's for political reasons.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I look at we're all politicians, the three of us, and my sense is that he didn't necessarily want to wear the situation because he felt that it was very much the responsibility of the Ottawa Police Service. And I fundamentally disagreed with them. I said of course they’re the lead police service, they have that legal jurisdiction, but we need the help of the other two orders of government with police officers.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then you say: “If they keep dragging their feet, I’m happy to call them out on it. It’d be nice if we have something firmed up with the federal government to shame them. Ford didn’t even make an effort to come and see what’s going on.” So it’s clear you’re sharing here the Prime Minister’s frustration about the Province’s lack of attendance at these meetings and general lack of involvement in the solution finding.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, well I’m sharing my frustration because I was, you know, on the frontline trying to explain to the public why it was taking so long to get so many resources into Ottawa when Windsor went quite quickly, and obviously when the guns were discovered in that small community in Alberta, it was shut down pretty quickly. But ours was lingering on and there was -- you know, while we’d see -- you know, we’d have sort of a bit of an up and down where, you know, one day we’d get a count saying five or six of the rigs moved out, which was good, and then the next day we’d have, you know, seven or eight are coming back in. So it was very, very fluid and very frustrating, and I think, you know, I was expressing my frustration, as was the Prime Minister, that on two fronts, one, we need the pressure on the OPP -- or the Province to get the OPP here, but secondly, the Federal Government had to step up and do its duty, particularly being the Nation’s capital. We needed the RCMP. And, you know, as I said, I went through this period where you were spending an hour arguing that we don’t have 250 officers, you’ve already assigned 150 to those three. And I’m not disputing, you wanted to protect the Prime Minister and the Governor General and Parliament, but don’t keep repeating the fact that there’s, you know, 250 officers out on the street in Ottawa, because that was not the case, and no one -- and I think, at the end of the process, you know, was there a little of, sort of, you know, if we push him on this front politically, he might act? It worked, because we got the police officers we needed. You know, you don’t necessarily want to go and constantly prod and attack and so on, but most of this was done behind the scenes so that we were not going to show, at least at the political level, there was this fractious debate. We could have a post mortem and deal with that after, but the immediate urgency was to give some piece of mind and comfort to those people who were living through hell in Centretown, and the Market, and Overbrook, Forbes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So would it have been helpful to have the Province in attendance at these meetings for everybody to be on the same page and for everybody to know what the numbers were and what was going on?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely. I think that would have sped up the process because, you know, it’s almost like that game of telephone, by the time you get the translation of the last person, it’s a lot different than the first person. I think everyone in the same room -- that was -- and I give credit to, I think it was Minister Blair that was the one that suggested the tripartite political group meet. And unfortunately we weren’t able to convince the Province, but, you know, we can’t force them to do what they don’t want to do. But, you know, the end result, albeit a week or two late, we did see unity on the frontlines with OPP, municipal police services, and Ottawa Police and RCMP. And as I said, they did what I consider a textbook case of cleaning up a really, really terrible situation.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so if the Province had participated in these meetings and been more engaged, do you think there would have been less of a delay in receiving resources? That the process would have gone faster?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I can only speculate, because it’s a theoretical question, but I truly believe it would have. If we’re all at the same table speaking to one another, we can have our arguments back and forth, but, you know, in fairness, you know, at the other levels, there seemed to be some positive relationship, but there were obviously disputes with respect to what was the final plan that was going to be signed off on? And then of course, as you know, Chief Sloly left the Service, so that created an element of instability. But it didn’t last long, because just a few days later, the Police, with their plan, took hold and cleaned up the city.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And Commissioner, this may be an appropriate time for a morning break, if you wish.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes. Be back at 25 to, or 24 to. And thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll take the time and go off for a break.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:21 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:39 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission a reprend.
MAYOR JIM WATSON, Resumed
EXAMINATION BY MS. NATATALIA RODRIGUEZ, (cont’d)
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I’m going to take you now, Mayor Watson, to SSM.CAN.NSC2676, and this is the readout of the third and last tripartite ministerial meeting dating February 10, and it looks to be with Minister Blair, yourself, Minister Mendicino, Mr. Kanellakos, and Deputy Minister Stewart. And on the first page, Minister Mendicino talks about discussions with Commissioner Lucki of the RCMP to provide an additional 275 RCMP officers, and then he says: "This will be operationalized in conjunction with the OPP, need to have a sense of the plan." It’s in the middle of that big paragraph. Do you see that? “This will be operationalized…” -- there it is ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- “…in conjunction with the OPP, need to have a sense of the plan.” And then on -- so my understanding, and we’ll see a little bit later, is that this is in relation to Chief Sloly’s plan to use the resources that will be made available. Is that your understanding as well?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe so, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we go to the second page, just under the redacted portion -- keep going, yeah, there, “RS”. So that is Deputy Minister Rob Stewart says: "We are engaging the province on all these areas…” Which are the ones above that are blanked out: "…as well as the evolution of the plan. From what I understand, the plan of the Chief has not yet been completely fleshed out. That my reflected the speed with which the RCMP can deploy resources." So what did you understand about the state of the plan from the OPS’s perspective, the OPS plan, at this stage, which is now the 10th of February?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, my understanding was that it was still being worked on and there was still debate amongst different agencies as to what was going to be the final plan. But in terms of the specifics, as I’m not a member of the Police Services Board, I would have no information or knowledge about what was going on behind the scenes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, but here in this meeting, they’re not talking about specifics of a plan but they’re talking about, “We need to have a plan in order to deploy the resources,” so it was a discussion that the fact that the plan had not been completely fleshed out, that that would affect -- or that could delay the RCMP resources.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Again, I can only speculate because I wasn’t part of that decision-making but, obviously, the Chief felt comfortable days earlier giving us the number 1800 of police officers that one would assume would work its way into the plan that he was working on. So I think, you know, the pressure we were putting on OPS was to give us a number so that we could go back to our partners at the federal and provincial levels of government to get the officers that would fit the plan ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- that was still being worked on.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so the federal -- your federal partners here are telling you that the plan is not completely fleshed out; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. And they would have received that, I suppose, from the RCMP that are at that command centre. As you know, you know, politicians are not part of a putting a plan together to deal with an operational matter.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sure.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So I’d have to rely on their comments to get that information.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were hearing this from others as well, that there was issues with the Chief’s -- with the readiness of the plan?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I -- at one point, I received a -- or had a conversation with Steve Kanellakos that indicated that there was some dispute and argument about what the final plan was going to look like but that was really the extent of it. My understanding was that these were not insurmountable issues and that they were close to signing off on the plan that would incorporate the 1800 officers to get this whole terrible situation resolved.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, and so your Chief of Staff yesterday testified that he was informed by Chief of Staff Mike Jones that by February 10 there was no agreement on an integrated plan and he indicated yesterday that you were aware of this as well and that it would have been communicated back to OPS, the fact that there were concerns about the readiness of the plan. Did you communicate that back to Ottawa Police Service or the Chief Sloly?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t know if I did or not, whether that would have come from Steve Kanellakos or Serge Arpin, but I don’t recall me raising the issue with them. Any time I have any conversation about the plan, he would indicate to me that they’re closing in on finalizing it, and while not giving me the specific date when they actually would start, it was alluded to on a number of occasions that they would start the process to clean out the whole area in days, not weeks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sure, but here, Minister Mendicino and Deputy Minister Stewart are indicating that not having a plan can affect the deployment of the RCMP officers. Did you convey that back to Chief Sloly to let him know that this was -- that the readiness of the plan was delaying?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, again, that would have been done at the staff level, not at the political level, so Steve Kanellakos or Serge Arpin. But, you know, the reality is that we have to separate our roles. Even though I’m sitting in on this group, it’s not making operational decisions. We were relying on the OPS to work with their partners to come up with a plan that was achievable and attainable in a relatively short period of time with the resources that we’d secured.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And on page 4, if we go down -- okay, and then you say: "Thank you. If we can word from the Commissioner to Sloly sometime today, we can get this moving. We don’t have to pick it up and leave it on Monday." (As read). Okay, sorry, I meant the second point at the bottom there where you say: "This is a good step. At some point, I will call the Premier to get them to sit at this table." So this was the last tripartite meeting, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe so, yeah.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so they -- in the end, the Premier did not come to the table, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you know why the tripartite meeting stopped after February 10?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I assume it was because we were closing in on that date when the police were going to start moving and it was no longer necessary. If we have secure the number of OPP officers in that period time or a couple of days later, there was not much point in meeting again. Although, I suspect if you looked at all of the different phone calls and Zooms and so on, we would have had meetings, bilateral or multilateral but not the full tripartite. That was the last one.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in the three meetings that we looked at, there’s some common themes that we can see. You’re expressing frustration that you’re not commitment from the Federal Government. You say you need boots on the ground, “Show me the Mounties. Let’s get a downpayment on RCMP officers.” So you felt that the Federal Government was not committing to the resources that you needed?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, at that time, but then we sent the letter; we had the two calls with the Prime Minister; had a number of calls with Minister Mendicino; and eventually, it all culminated in the officers arriving, both -- I forgot to mention Municipal Services as well. They were quite substantial. You know, when you walked through the site and you saw Belleville police cars, and York Region, and Toronto, it was actually quite a relief to see those other police officers helping their fellow police officers. So, you know, at the end of the day, the process unfolded as it should. But as I’ve said, one of the frustrations I had as a common theme was the lack of commitment to officers earlier on in the process.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, did you say that the process unfolded as it should?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, with the cleanup of the streets ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I see.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- where the police moved in and ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you agree that it took three weeks for that to happen, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, and that was -- my biggest criticism was that it took so long to get this resolved. And again, you know, it’s easy for me as an armchair critic to go and say, "Well, why didn’t you move faster?" I understand there's some logistical -- you know, we had officers from Vancouver. Well, it takes time to get the plane tickets and get over here and get hotel accommodations and so on. So you know, I'm not being overly critical of the fact that there are some logistical challenges, but I was pushing from really, Day 1 or Day 2. We needed more help, because the chief told me we couldn't handle this on our own.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. But you're not just an armchair critic. As you say, you're the mayor of Ottawa and you see that your city is in need, and so you have a duty, really, to raise those issues and to push all levels of government to do whatever they can to get this resolved quickly, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. That was why I took on the role of ensuring that we had the political lines of communication open, why we established the tripartite committee, and why we sent the letter from my office and from Councillor Deans, and why we continued to have dialogue with local elected officials, members of council and our political counterparts at the federal and provincial government.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But ultimately, there was a significant delay in getting those resources, although they ultimately did come ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- barely? But there was a significant delay in both RCMP officers and OPP officers; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And other municipal officers.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And other municipal officers. And so essentially, what we're seeing in these three meetings is that you're not getting what you need from any level of government?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. You know, we -- I think the other level of frustration was that we pushed for some time to get a number. You know, I mentioned this earlier this morning, that we just couldn't go in -- continue going into meetings, whether bilateral or the tripartite meetings, without a clear idea from OPS as to what we needed. We finally did get that, and that acted as a bit of a mechanism to unclog the decision making, but it just took too long.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So one issue then was not having an understanding of what was needed soon enough; is that right? Like, if that had been communicated sooner, the chain of events that subsequently happened could have started earlier, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, can you -- I don’t quite understand the first part of your question.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The first part is, you're saying that you eventually got the number of resources that were required, and you sent the letters off on February 7th, but had you understood what was required earlier, from January 31st, you already know that there are not enough resources, as we saw in your call with the prime minister. So had the chief communicated to you the requirements and a number sooner, that could have been passed on sooner, and the sequence of events of the meetings and trying to get those resources could have begun sooner, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
In theory, I hope that would have been the case, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if the RCMP officers had been secured, and if that commitment from the federal government had have been secured earlier, then also, the situation could have potentially been resolved sooner. There was a delay there in getting those federal resources, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if the province had been at the table, at the tripartite table, and had been part of the discussions, and you were able to communicate directly to the solicitor general or to the premier what was needed and when, that also could have helped resolve the situation sooner, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So really, it was a failure at all levels. Would you agree with that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, there's no question that you know, when you look at -- look back, you know, hindsight on what happened, there were many failure points along the way, and you know, whether it's the City or the provincial or the federal governments, we all have to take responsibility for the fact that we did not act fast enough and that the people of Ottawa suffered the most as a result of the fact that we did not clean up that occupation for three weeks. It should have been done sooner.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so we've talked a little bit about what the OPS could have done differently, what the federal government and the provincial government could have done differently. What about the municipality? What could the City have done differently?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, as you know, we have limited authority and responsibility and powers in a situation like this. This was early on, literally within the first 24 hours. This was clearly a police issue. And I'm not simply shrugging our responsibility. We had certain responsibilities from bylaw and keeping the streets opened and municipal requirements and policies and permitting process. This was just -- this overwhelmed the City of Ottawa. It overwhelmed us at the administrative, bureaucratic, operational, and political levels. We had never seen anything like this in our lives, and I think we were all, quite frankly, treading water, trying to keep our head afloat as we saw this situation unfold in front of us, both on television and in person. So it was, you know, a horrific experience for the people who lived there, who tried to work there, who tried to visit our city. It's had long-lasting impacts on many people's health. It's hurt our tourism industry, for instance. And you know, we have to rebuild that trust with the public and with the police, and we have to, on a go-forward basis, learn lessons and hopefully the Commission's report will bring forward a series of recommendations that we -- if we ever have a situation like this, we'd do much better for the public.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so you said, you know, early on, it was clear that you were -- the City was overwhelmed and that it couldn't -- it didn’t have the resources to handle this ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- not just on the police side, but on the municipal level as well. From the 31st, I think it became clear that this was not something that was going to just resolve itself on its own, and I'll come back to this point, could declaring a state of emergency earlier, as of, for example, the 31st of January, have signalled that the City was overwhelmed, that it was treading water, and a signal to the other levels of government to act accordingly?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. Our staff were very clear that again, you know, I reiterate the fact that a municipal state of emergency, I think people see on television mayors in the United States cities declaring states of emergency with the powers they have. It wouldn't have made a big difference at all. In hindsight, I suppose if I was to recommend to my successor -- we often get this question by the public and people get, "Why not exercise -- why aren't you declaring a state of emergency?" In hindsight, you know, maybe we just declare it so it brings that peace of mind to the public that we know it's an emergency. We didn’t need a document to know that this was an extraordinary, dangerous, serious situation that was going to have negative impacts on our residents, and quite frankly, the country. And the frustration was that the reason why we wanted the RCMP there was the protestors were protesting federal legislation right across Parliament Hill, the prime minister's office. We needed provincial support as they did in Windsor because there was an economic imperative that our city not be shut down for three or four or five weeks.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so aside from maybe signalling that need for assistance earlier with the state of emergency, what else could the City have done differently, and what else will the City do differently next time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, we're going through the debate as to what to do with Wellington Street, for instance, so I think we're going to have a -- you know, there's a motion passed, many motions passed by my colleagues on council, and one of the motions passed clearly indicated that we have to do something to protect the parliamentary precinct, both in terms of who should be patrolling Wellington Street, the roles and responsibilities of PPS versus OPP versus OPS versus RCMP, and then the military police. So we're very much a jurisdictional challenge because we have so many different layers of responsibility. But you know, if I was looking back and had the ability to you know, change what was done early on, I would have insisted that we have barricades blockading Wellington Street as a first step, because as I said, I think it was symbolic on the part of the truckers. They wanted that as their backdrop, and you know, forcing them to come in on Slater or Albert or another parallel street to Wellington did not have the same effect or impact.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So now we're going through a dialogue with First Nations, with community groups, with all of the different policing organizations to determine what are we going to do with Wellington Street, because you know, we were concerned a few weeks after the convoy, there was the motorcycle rally that was somewhat disruptive, but much better contained with Chief Bell, Acting Chief Bell; and concerned about July 1st. There was some protest, but it didn’t amount to much. And what's going to happen next February and January and March? Are they going to come back and try to repeat the behaviour that we saw this January and February? So we have to be better prepared to protect those national symbols such as Parliament Hill.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you agree that it was unacceptable that residents would have to go through this for three weeks, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely. It was unacceptable for one day let alone three weeks, but we know that, you know, in a free society, people have the right to protest. But this went well beyond protest. It was illegal activity, hurtful activity, harmful to the public's health, and you know, I think the the Organizers, you know, seemed to show very little respect for the law and very little respect for coming into our neighbourhood. We even had members of Parliament going out and taking selfies and so on. And I asked those individuals who were critical of us moving them out, "How would you like to have 40 18-wheelers blaring their horn, literally 24 hours a day, spewing diesel fume, cooking a roast pig on a spit, throwing off fireworks at all hours, threatening people, being called, you know, homophobic slurs and racist slurs, how would you like that in your neighbourhood in Saskatoon, or Halifax, or Winnipeg, or Red Deer? You wouldn't tolerate it for a minute." Downtown Ottawa is not just some sterile environment called Parliament Hill. There are people that live there, thousands of people that live there. And they were affected the most, and, you know, we have to do better. If this situation ever comes close to being repeated, we must do better for the people of Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I just want to ask you about the negotiation that happened with the protesters. We heard much more detail yesterday about that and we'll hear more detail in future I'm hoping with Superintendent Drummond's evidence. Can you just tell me, what was your understanding of the deal that was struck? What was the deal?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
The deal was to -- let me just backtrack for a moment. The reason why I went down this route was simply there was very little progress being made on any front to get the situation resolved. And my preoccupation number one was to bring some relief to the residential community. I wasn't as concerned about Parliament Hill or Wellington Street, even though those are important symbols in our country, but the people being affected the most were the people who were trying to get a good night's sleep and that were living in that red zone. And so I was approached, as you know, by Mr. French, who said he had contacts with trucking companies and those -- some of those that were involved. And he said, "I'm willing at no charge. I'm not doing this for money or anything else. I'm trying to be helpful." Because he was watching what everyone else was watching on television, this mess that was, you know, hurting so many different people and small businesses. So I'd met him two or three times. He was the former Chief of Staff to the Premier Ford. I'd had occasion to deal with him in my capacity as Mayor and he as Chief of Staff and was in two or three meetings with he and the Premier over a number of months. So I was a little skeptical. It was, you know, who does this guy know? You know, and I said, "I'm not interested in meeting them, but, you know, if you can come broker some kind of a deal to get trucks out of the residential community, good for you." So I referred him to my Chief of Staff, and I think Steve Kanellakos. And over a couple of days, they negotiated an agreement based on the letter that I sent to one of the organizers, Ms. Lich, indicating that I would be willing to meet with them on a number of conditions, and there are I think four different conditions. I think you have the letter. I don't want to give you the wrong conditions, but basically, you know, you got to get a number of trucks out of the residential area. They can't be replaced by other trucks. And if this is done and a couple of other things, then the Mayor would be pleased to meet with you. This stemmed from the fact that the Police Liaison Teams approached the City because there was concern that communication had broken down between the liaison teams from OPS and the protest leaders. And as you know, there was not one united voice that spoke for the protesters. There were many different leaders and different camps. So prior to Mr. French's call, Steve Kanellakos did meet with a number of the protesters in his office and heard them out. And when he told me they'd asked for a meeting, I was initially reluctant, not with me, but I said, "I'm not sure if this is a good idea for Steve." And he thought it was, and I said, okay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What were your concerns?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, that we're meeting with this group that has been causing such damage and is this just a public relations stunt to get a couple of pictures to say, "Look, we've met with the top City bureaucrat, and we're going to meet with the mayor, and we didn't get anything in return." And, you know, remain the status quo. So they met, and Steve Kanellakos reported back that they seemed to be serious in their attempt to try to bring the temperature down. And then I believe a day or two after, that's when Mr. French got involved. We sent a letter, Ms. Lich sent a reply back, agreeing to the conditions. And they started, I believe on the 13th or 12th to move the trucks. The letter I think was the 13th. They started to move some of the trucks out of the residential areas onto Wellington Street.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, I believe that was on the 14th, on the Monday the 14th they began. The 13th I think there was a meeting ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
The 13th it was the letter.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes. And the ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think it was dated.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- 13th there was a meeting to sort out the logistics and on the 14th, they started that movement.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And the police assigned a senior officer to go down by basically outside of this building roughly, to coordinate the movement of those trucks. And my understanding -- sorry, go ahead.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No, no, go ahead.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
My understanding was that 40 big rigs moved and there were upwards of 60 other vehicles of different sizes that started to move onto Wellington, away from the residential community. And then that process was stopped when the Emergencies Act was implemented, I believe, on the 14th.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so in total about over -- about a hundred vehicles in total, 40 of them big rigs and the balance passenger vehicles and pickup trucks; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Campers and things like that, so I think it was -- it totalled about 102.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know why the police stopped those operations? Did anybody from the police tell you, "This has been stopped for these reasons"?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, my recollection was that Steve Kanellakos said as a result of the Emergencies Act, all of that activity was stopped and they had to redeploy all of our police officers to the main event, which was to take back the street.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But nobody from OPS said that to you? This was conveyed to you by Mr. Kanellakos?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so in terms of the deal that was brokered, was it your understanding that this was meant to be a way to solve the situation, end what you had called the occupation, such that all of the protesters would leave? Was that what this deal was for?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. No, we were under no illusions that it was going to solve the problem. It was going to solve one small part of the problem in a residential area along the streets such as, you know, Kent and O'Connor and so on where people live, get the out of harm's way. So, you know, and that was made very clear, you know, with my conversations with Serge who had discussions with Mr. French that this was not going to stop the rest of the activity that we were fighting against.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was the deal then that once they relocated to Wellington, was there any kind of assurance as to how long they could stay there then? Was the City giving them permission to occupy Wellington Street?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the deal was they were to move out of the residential areas onto Wellington Street where no one lives, as you know, on Wellington Street. They're just government buildings. And most of those were empty, because obviously, they were in the red zone. No one was working out of their office from a safety point of view. So it was very much trying to deal with one preoccupation that I had, which was the concern for those people in the residential areas who had been putting up with, you know, close to two weeks, two weeks plus of ear-slitting noise and, you know, train horns and so on.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But to your knowledge, did the City ever suggest that once they were relocated, they could stay there on Wellington, this was -- they would be then protected from any kind of police action to remove them?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. No, there was no such part of the arrangement. The reality is that we were hoping that some of those individuals who, quite frankly, were blocked in by other trucks would decide to leave. And I was told by someone with the Police Service, I can't recall who it was, that in fact five or six of those trucks actually just left because it was -- you know, they were stuck behind three or four deep trucks. If they wanted to leave, they couldn't leave anyways. So I think this gave a little bit of relief to those people who felt they'd made their point and they had to go home.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. But at that time, there are about 4 to 500 trucks occupying the downtown; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, in the downtown. There were more at Coventry and more at Rideau and Sussex.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now on February 14th, we know that the Emergencies Act was invoked. Were you consulted on the invocation of the Emergencies Act before it was invoked?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I wasn't.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Did the City request that it be invoked?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did the City weigh in on whether it was required, necessary, or needed?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, when it was released, I think like most people, very few people knew exactly what the Emergencies Act was, to be perfectly honest. I remember growing up in Quebec, what the War Measures Act was and the implications that had for the province of Quebec and the rest of the country. But no one had raised the Emergencies Act with us, but when it was invoked and I was briefed on what its powers were, I thought this is a very positive step to getting this situation resolved once and for all because of the provisions of the Act. So I very much supported it, and I was -- as you may recall, the current chair of the Police Services Board, Eli El-Chantiry and I, sent a letter to the Prime Minister thanking him for invoking the Act, because it actually acted as the catalyst for us to move forward and get that whole situation in the downtown core resolved once and for all, and give people their street and their homes back.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you have any knowledge as to what measures under the Act were used in order to affect a police operation that ultimately ended the occupation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the single biggest issue for us was that we did not -- even if we moved in, we didn't have the capacity to move the trucks out, because we had basically two OC Transpo large rig trucks, tow trucks, and so this compelled tow truck companies to provide this service. And I can tell you it sounds a little bit hokey, but you know, when I came out of City Hall after the Emergencies Act and I saw a whole row of tow trucks parked on Laurier Ave, I thought -- I never thought I'd see the day where I'm so happy to see a tow truck, because these tow trucks ended up doing an excellent job basically hauling all of the trucks, and trailers, and campers, and everything else out of Wellington Street. And you know, what they had to do, because the companies were still fearful there would be retribution by some of the trucking convoy, they had to put decals of the Ottawa Police Service over their company decal, almost deputising them with the logo, so that they wouldn't be harassed after the whole incident was over.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But you don't have any knowledge as to where the tow trucks came from, or who procured them, or under what authority, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I'm assuming that it would have been a combination of the police in the City that procured them. I know for instance, I wrote to, or I texted John Torry, because I saw the number of tow trucks they had in Toronto, and I said where -- you know, do you have tow trucks that you can lend us? And he said, well, here's the names of three or four different companies in Toronto that we use, because he had some but he couldn't give up his TTC tow trucks, just as we couldn't give up our OC Transpo tow trucks. So he provided names and I passed that along to Steve Kanellakos and the City staff, and the tow trucks showed up because they had no choice, and they did great work, and they helped to speed up the cleanup of the street substantially.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So just so I'm clear, do you know that these tow trucks were procured under the authority of the Emergencies Act, or is that your assumption?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, we were told by every tow truck company that they were not going to participate, and then when the Emergencies Act was introduced tow trucks suddenly appeared. So I think the cause and effect was yes, the Emergencies Act compelled them. I read the section just the other day in preparation of this hearing, and it was made very clear that they were not going to be coming and helping us unless they were forced by law, and that’s what the Emergencies Act did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So that’s your assumption based on the fact that they were refusing to do it and then they showed up, essentially?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, yeah, I don't know the procurement policies ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- of OPS versus the City’s procurement policy. We often procure vehicles, for instance, for the OPS, so whether it was OPS doing it directly, or the City of Ottawa, it was one or the other.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. But you don’t know?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't know definitively, no.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we know on February 15th that Sloly and OPSB reached a mutually agreeable separation. were you consulted on Chief Sloly’s departure before it happened?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I received a press release like everyone else did that day.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you have a view that you should or shouldn't be consulted or notified when the Police Chief is going to be replaced or removed?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I thought it would be helpful that that information was shared by me. There's no requirement, I suppose, of the Board to do that. But it would have been helpful because if I was -- found myself in a scrum I was being told this for the first time it would've been nice to have a heads up about that.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And on the 16th of February there was a City Council special meeting. Do you recall that meeting?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So this was the meeting after the Emergencies Act was invoked, and this is the meeting in which Chair Deans was removed as Chair, and of -- well, as a Member of the Board. And so, my understanding is that you had communications with Chair Deans between Chief Sloly’s resignation and before the council meeting?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can you describe those discussions?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. It was on Zoom or Teams with myself, Steve Kanellakos, Robyn Guess from my office, Serge Arpin, and Councillor Deans, and I believe one of her assistants we're on the Zoom call. And she indicated it based on a press release that, I can't recall the exact wording, but it was something to the effect -- it's in the documents -- it's something to the effect that we're working on a new command structure. And I was curious about what this was, and it also indicated a new command structure and hiring a new chief. I thought, well, this seems a little strange. We're in the midst of a crisis. I didn't get into a long, detailed discussion with Councillor Deans about Chief Sloly’s departure and whether he was fired, or resigned, or what the compensation package was. That was the business of the Police Services Board. But it was clear that Councillor Deans wanted to move quickly to bring in a new acting Chief, and that was the bulk of the discussion that we had that -- with that call.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you had a concern about that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I had a deep concern about it, because you know, we had Chief Sloly on one day, the next day we had Interim Chief Bell, and then the next day the Board was going to appoint another chief, so we had three chiefs in three days. That's not stabilizing for the situation that we were about to deal with in two or three days when the police moved in to resolve the situation.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. But hiring a Chief of Police is within the exclusive purview of the Police Services Board, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So they didn't need to consult with you about that decision, did they?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Technically no, they didn’t. But I thought, you know, I know for instance when chiefs have been hired in the past, the Board as a courtesy, would bring the individual or their proposed candidate to my office for a get to know you session. And I was concerned about the instability of having three chiefs in three days, I didn't think that sent much confidence to the community, particularly when the chief -- my understanding -- was in Florida at the time and probably couldn't make it back, you know, in time to oversee the implementation of the plan to clean up Wellington Street, which took place that weekend.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. But that decision was the Board’s to make, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And Councillor Deans, or Chair Deans at the time, said to the effect, you don't want me to sign this contract, because the contract had not been signed. And I said, yes, I can't tell you what to do, because you are independent and autonomous, but I think it would be wise not to sign a contract until we get this situation stabilized in Ottawa, to have someone from another jurisdiction come and try to, you know, learn the street names, let alone the command structure that the Chief had put in place. And Chair Deans committed not to signing the contract, and then later that day it was discovered that in fact, she had signed the contract.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Which she was entitled to do as Chair of the Board, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, but she'd indicated that she was not going to do it, because she understood my deep concerns about moving at that pace.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you consider that discussion with her about asking her not to sign the contract, or telling her that you wished her not to sign the contract, compromised the independence of the Board in any way?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I didn't think I did. It was ultimately her choice, and she said she wouldn't sign the contract, so I took her at her word.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And very briefly, I will take you to OTT29762.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And that date is?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
This is the in camera council meeting minutes of February 16th.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And at page 6 of that, Councillor Leiper, at the top: “…observed that the Motion spoke [of] a loss of confidence in the Board, which was linked to the hiring decisions.” So it says there that the motion to remove the Chair as a member of the Board was linked to the hiring decisions. Now, what we heard yesterday was that the motion was linked to a loss of confidence that you had lost in Chair Deans. Can you clarify what the -- why this Motion was brought forward to remove Chair Deans?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well you’re correct. From my perspective, it was the decision to sign the contract, despite giving me assurance that she wouldn’t sign the contract, number one. And secondly, the instability that that had. And thirdly, that no on, really, outside of the Police Services Board was consulted. There was no public consultation with different groups in society, in civil society. And in fact, it was two thirds -- about two thirds of Council that voted to remove Councillor Deans as a member of the Police Services Board, and the rest of the motions, including appointing Councillor El-Chantiry, who was then supported at their next Board Meeting to be made the new Chair of the Board.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And in this in- camera minutes, we don’t see any mention of the assurances that the Chair gave to you, according to you, about not hiring a new chief, but that it was linked, rather, to the Board’s hiring decisions. And ultimately, as you know, the Chief that had been selected ultimately rescinded his offer to take on that role, ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s right.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- as a result of the turnover at the Board. You’re aware of that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. And after he sent the Board a note asking that his name been withdrawn from consideration, I phoned him to thank him for the gracious way that he dealt with a very awkward and potentially embarrassing situation to himself and his reputation and the fact that he was not going to pursue any action against the City and wished us well in our search, and it was a very civil and kind call from the former Chief of Waterloo, I believe.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And before the Motion was introduced at Council, you had asked Chair Deans to resign; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, she asked if I’d lost confidence in her, and at that point, at that meeting, I said, “I’m talking to Members of Council. I can’t give you an answer on that.” But then obviously when we learned that the contract had been signed, despite assurances it wouldn’t be signed, I did lose confidence in her, and that’s why I supported the motion by Councillor Moffatt, ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- and two thirds of Council.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And do you consider that the turnover at the Board contributed to that instability that you were looking to avoid?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well you’d have to ask the Province, because they rescinded the three appointees to their Board as well. But the reality was that the Board, as you know, does not involve itself in operational matters. It’s policy, and budget driven. So, you know, the challenge we had was that I think there’d have been greater instability if we had Chief Bell, Interim Chief Bell, who was working on implementing the plan, signing off on it, and ready to deeply the officers into the red zone to clean it up, it would have been -- I think it would have delayed the process if you had someone from an entirely different jurisdiction who did not know, and this is no criticism to Mr. Torigan, but he wouldn’t know the intricacies of the City of Ottawa and their road grids and so on. that would have -- you know, if he was coming in on Monday, he would have said, “Don’t start until I get there.” I assume he’d want to be involved. And so I was pleased that when Chief Bell, you know, oversaw the operation, we got sign off by the other police services, and the action that took place at -- on Wellington, Coventry, and Rideau, was quite remarkable at how quickly they moved it out and cleaned out the streets as fast as they did and as efficiently as they did, without losing a life.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And I see the Commissioner glaring at me, so I am out of time. And those are all my questions for you. Thank you.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we’re now into the second phase of the testimony. So if we could call on the Convoy organizers to go first?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Good morning.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My name is Brendan Miller. I’m counsel for ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Afternoon.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- Freedom Corp, which is an organization that represents the protestors that were in your city in January and February 2022. I’m just going to get set up here. So, Mayor Watson, following up on some of my friend’s questions that have been put to you today, and how things have come out, do you agree with me that you did not handle the situation that was before you in January and February 2022 properly?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I think I would characterize it as given all the information and the circumstances, we did the best we could, which obviously was not good enough.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And can you agree with me that you politicized the protests and politicized the situation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I disagree with that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’d agree that the politicization of the matter, which you claim was not yourself, but that the matter was politicized by the Federal Government?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you agree that making of the protests a political issue in the governance level created problems?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Do you agree with me that the following governments and agencies handled this matter properly? First, the Government of Ontario?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Ultimately, yes, they did handle it properly, but it took some time to get to that stage.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Same.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Ottawa Police Service?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, they were on the ground from day one, but obviously, as I’ve expressed, I would have liked to have seen the intervention to bring back our streets to our people done much sooner.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you’ve said that they were on the ground from day one; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s right. They were the jurisdictional police service.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And as the Mayor of a town, you don’t have -- or the city, you don’t have the security clearance or the clearance to know what the actual operational activities are of a police agency; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well it’s not a security clearance matter. It’s a matter that there’s a separate autonomous organization called the Ottawa Police Services Board that has full jurisdiction over policy and governance of the Police Board, and the hiring and firing of four key officers, and that is their responsibility. The only direct link that the City has, as you may now from the Police Services Act, is that we approve or reject the budget of the police.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I’m going to take you back. So I’ll just be more narrow. So during the protests, you did not know what the operational activities were of the Ontario Provincial Police; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I wouldn’t know what their operational activities were, but they were coming under the jurisdiction and responsibility of the Ottawa Police Service. But again, I was never made aware of the operational plan, nor was I given the specific time that it was going to be launched, because it would be outside my jurisdiction. You can put two and two together, when you started to see more police arrive, you knew it was happening imminently, but I didn’t have the specific date, nor should I.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you see -- you saw certain uniformed officers arrive; right? From the Ontario Provincial Police.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I don’t know if all of them were in their uniform. There were lots that were plain clothes, I suppose. But I saw a lot of OPP officers in Ottawa when we finally got to that 1,800 number. That’s for sure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You didn’t know how many officers, really, the Ontario Provincial Police had here from January 26th until the invocation of the Emergencies Act; did you?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well our Chief said that on average, we had about 50 to 55 police officers from OPP at different stages on a daily basis.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
But nowhere near the 1,500 that the Solicitor General referred to on one day.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And so just in summary, you had, with respect to their operational plans, and what they were doing, and everything that the police were up to, you did not know what they were doing, either the Ontario Provincial Police, or the Ottawa Police Service; right? They didn’t tell you because they couldn’t?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well there’s Church and State. You know, there’s a separation. The Police Services Board is autonomous under provincial legislation, and even the Board itself, and I sat on the Board for a number of years. But even the Board itself does not have the ability to direct the chief on an operational matter, you know? So if they wanted to get together and say, you know, "Pass a motion. We want you to go and, you know, take care of speeders on Carling Avenue for the next two months," that would be ruled out of order. It's not appropriate.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to make it very clear, and I'd just like you answer this question, if you don’t mind. The Ontario Provincial Police and the Ottawa Police Service did not and could not update you on their actual operational plans, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not on the operational plans, but obviously, we received information in terms of their discussions with other police services in terms of securing those resources in the Nation's Capital.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, you used to be the Communication Director for the Speaker of the House in federal Parliament; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you then became a member of provincial Parliament?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I became a member of City Council.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then a member of provincial Parliament after that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, then mayor.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Then mayor, and then a member of provincial Parliament after that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, then President of Canadian Tourism Commission.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, congratulations. But at some juncture, you became a member of provincial Parliament, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
You got it now.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Thank you very much. And when you became that member of provincial Parliament, it was with the Liberal Party of Ontario at the time; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you then became the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing from October 30th, 2007?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you held that office until January 12th, 2010?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Minister of Municipal Affairs, that’s the Ministry that oversees the City of Ottawa and all other municipalities under the Municipalities Act, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, the minister is responsible for the Acts, you know? I'm not the overseer of municipalities, but they are my, I suppose, client, if you could put it that way, that any municipal issue, I was responsible for in Cabinet.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you're very familiar, of course, then because you held that office, with the Municipal Act, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I am, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you'd also be familiar with that as the mayor of the City?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. And the current Minister of Municipal Affairs and at the time of the protest was Mr. Steve Clark, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the City of Ottawa, like all municipalities across the country, it's a creature of statute that exists at the behest of the provincial legislature; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, constitutionally.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And you agree that if the Provincial Parliament of Ontario wanted to, they could set out how they want Ottawa to be governed, and can basically do what they wish in that regard, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Pretty much.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And you could agree with me that the City of Ottawa is treated the same by the Government of Ontario as any other municipality in Ontario, aren't they?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
It depends on the issue. There are sometimes where we feel that we're under served in terms of provincial grants and contributions, and other times, we feel we're treated fairly.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I've not seen in any of the many records in this proceedings that have been produced that at any time whatsoever that you contacted Minister Clark.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don't know if I had a call with Steve or not. I certainly had discussions with his colleague, Minister MacLeod on a number of occasions, and she was very helpful in relaying information. But really, the matter we were dealing with fell completely outside the jurisdiction of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. It was very much the Solicitor General who was the lead minister, and that was amplified by the fact that the premier brought her on the calls.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the issue that you were facing was a resource issue; was it not?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Resource of people, yes, police officers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, you know then that under section 302 of the Municipal Act, that the minister may, upon such terms and conditions as it considers available or advisable, make grants and loans and provide other financial assistance to a municipality, right? You're aware of that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And at no time did you ever ask for any form of financial assistance from Minister Clark, did you?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. I did with the premier.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You did with the premier?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But you and I both know from your former workings as the actual minister, that you go through the minister's office, right? You ask then for financial assistance and they can give you a grant and give you money to deal with things like protests on an emergency basis even if they want, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. There has to be a program in place. You just don’t go up to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask for a grant. We indicated to the premier very clearly, as I did with the prime minister and his ministers, that we are counting on those two orders of government, when this is all said and done and finished, that we would be keeping very close tabs of all of the extraordinary costs that we incurred in order to bring peace to our city, and both the prime minister and the premier said that, "We'll be there for you to help financially." And we have since submitted all of our costs. It's in the tens of millions of dollars, because as you know, particularly when the municipal police services arrive, they have to be put up in hotels, they have to be given three meals a day, there's expenses. And we reimburse all of those municipalities. I, for instance, ran into the mayor of Belleville a few weeks ago here in Ottawa -- a few months ago, rather, at the AMO Conference, and he thanked us for the quick repayment of the invoice that they received. So the premier was very specific and very generous, as was the prime minister, that they would be here to help us financially because the protestors were coming, not to protest the Corporation of the City of Ottawa, they were protesting mandates that were imposed by the provincial and federal government. We happened to be the -- as I said, the meat in the sandwich. We're caught in this middle fight between protestors and two other orders of government that are responsible for various mandates with respect to COVID 19. So you know, I wouldn't have gone to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing because most of his funding on an emergency basis is through the DRAP Program, the Disaster Relief program. This was not a disaster.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So it wasn’t a disaster?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, it was a crisis.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
A disaster is a natural disaster. The bad storm we had a little while ago; the flooding in 2017, 2019; the tornado in 2018; that’s where we seek support of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and also through again, the Solicitor General when we called the army in to help with the sandbagging and the flooding in Ottawa.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So the thing is this, can you agree with me, as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, that having a program set out is not a requirement for the minister to give a city a grant? They can actually just do it under the Municipal Act, can they not?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, there has to be a program in place. There's not a slush fund that’s kept by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing that is there in case a bunch of truckers come and take over a city. There's no such program. You can't ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I understand that. But what I'm saying to you is this, that the minister -- and when you were minister, you had the power to grant these grants, even if there was no program; is that not true?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, that’s not true.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And secondly, I'm not sure why we would be going to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing for a grant. All we were asking for was the compensation to make us whole to ensure that we received after the whole situation had been resolved, to make sure that we had the necessary receipts -- and our treasurer is very good at this, along with the CFO of the Ottawa Police -- all of the costs were incurred. I think the figure was -- and I stand to be corrected -- well over $36 million in costs. So that is being worked on now.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the City of Ottawa then had adequate financial funds to deal with the protest?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, we did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
We have healthy reserve funds.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the only issue is was actually getting bodies, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, getting bodies, yes, but also having the Emergencies Act so that we could get tow trucks and we could have a plan in place that once the police moved in, we could actually move those trucks that refused to move and tow them to a central location.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I just got something you said. You said you wanted the Emergencies Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You needed it to get the tow trucks?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, we needed something to get the tow trucks because we were not successful. So when the Emergencies Act was introduced, and it was made clear specifically one line that towing was one of the requirements that people could not say no to, that was a big win for us in the City of Ottawa.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it, Mr. Mayor, that you have, of course, a relationship with probably numerous members of Parliament from your position as mayor in Ottawa, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did anybody tell you before the Emergencies Act was invoked that it was coming?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So you didn’t know if you were going to get these powers or what have you were going to be ordered with respect to towing vehicles?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. When the Act was introduced and my staff basically printed off a copy of the Act and highlighted those sections that we could use, the one that caught my attention the first was the towing capacity to clean up the situation in centre town and Byward Market.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you do know and you've already mentioned that of course, the Ottawa Police Service Board is independent of the Police Service, the Ottawa Police Service, and they have no ability to order operational sort of orders or bylaws, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, they don’t pass bylaws but ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And as the former Minister of Municipal Affairs, you also that, of course, the Province of Ontario, and Premier, and the Ministers at the provincial level, they have no ability to order the OPP to do anything with respect to resource either?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you know these two things, right ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and you knew them at the time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And it would have been the Commissioner of the OPP that would be making those decisions, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, he was in contact with Chief Sloly.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And at no time -- and that’s Mr. Thomas Carrique; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you agree with me that at no time while you were looking for these resources did you contact the Commissioner of the OPP to outline what you wanted, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, that would be inappropriate.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would be inappropriate?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
To contact an OPP officer.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He’s the Commissioner of the OPP. What’s the difference -- you’re okay with having contact with the Prime Minister of the country but you’re not okay having contact with the Commissioner of the OPP to ask him for what you need?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Because we have a system in place where we do not have politicians interacting directly with police officers, or superintendents, or commissioners. That would highly inappropriate. That’s why, as a politician, my counterpart is not the OPP Commissioner, it’s the premier and the minister responsible for the solicitor general, so it would be highly inappropriate. During this whole period, I did not once speak to the Commissioner of the OPP or the Commissioner of the RCMP -- completely inappropriate. So, you know, I dealt at the political level with members of parliament, members of Provincial Parliament, ministers, and the Premier, and the Prime Minister. That was my role in this period in our City’s history.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And did you have phone calls with the Minister of Justice and the Premier with respect to what you needed?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, we had discussions with the solicitor general and the Premier. And at the federal level it was the Minister of Emergency Preparedness and Public Safety, and the Prime Minister.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so, again, just in your statement that you provided, I didn’t see when the dates were that you had these conversations with the Premier. When were they? What were the dates?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I’ll have to look them up. I don’t recall what they are but I believe it was in -- it was two or three during the month of, I believe, February.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
February? So ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I stand to be corrected but I don’t know the specifics. The Prime Minister’s Office did provide a quasi-transcript so we have the specifics on that, but these calls that I had with the Premier were -- one of them was, basically, he called me on my cell phone; we had a long discussion about the situation that was on the ground. And then the other was when of the Minister -- the solicitor general joined us and we had a discussion about the need for OPP officers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So -- and I can tell you that the Prime Minister and the Premier were talking around that time, too, and he -- the Premier had told the Prime Minister, and I’m going to put it to you that he also to you, that he had no ability to order the OPP to provide you officers; it had to come from the Commissioner and OPP themselves, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And he told you that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t know if he told me that but the solicitor general sent a letter, as we saw earlier today, indicating that she had sent our request -- the letter that Councillor Deans and I sent to the Premier and the solicitor general, she had sent that to the Commissioner of the OPP, which is the proper route, not telling him what to do, indicating that this request has come in and to please take the appropriate action.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and the Premier told you that he wouldn’t join the tripartite meetings because it was pointless.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
He felt it was a waste of time.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right, and it was.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
How do you know that?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because you were looking for officers and they couldn’t order officers.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, that’s -- I don’t think you fully understand the situation, that I can’t pick up the phone and start barking orders at a commissioner of any police service, whether it’s the OPP or the RCMP. There’s a protocol in place and that protocol is to have a politician-to- politician. And the RCMP and the Minister said the same thing; he can’t direct Commissioner Lucki but he can certainly pass along our request. And she made the decision and we that her and the Commissioner because, at the end of the day, they did provide the resources that ended up cleaning up this terrible situation our residents found themselves in.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And this protocol that you’ve been talking about and mentioned, is it in writing?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, it’s the law that politicians are not allowed to direct police services. It’s very ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand that but there’s nothing that I know of, at least -- and if you could point me to it -- that says that you were prevented from either calling Commissioner Lucki or calling the Commissioner of the OPP and saying, “Hey, we need some more resources. Can you do this for us?”
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Again, I think that would be entirely inappropriate; you know, to give the powers of operational responsibilities to politicians is a very slippery slope.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not saying that, sir. I’m asking you if there’s an actual policy that says you are not allowed to call and make a request to the police; is there a policy in that regard?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, our City solicitor advised that the route that we should be taking is the letter to the Premier and the Prime Minister and the two appropriate ministers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay, so it wasn’t a protocol; it was what the City solicitor told you to do?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I’m assuming that he would have told me what to do based on the law of the land.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And the policy is very, very clear.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll ask him about that when he testifies.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The other questions I have for you have to do with the mediator. Now, you had asked ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, with what?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The mediator.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You had asked the Federal Government if they could appoint and independent mediator; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And the Federal Government said no?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they said no because they didn’t want to look like they were engaging with the protesters; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
You’d have to ask them. I can’t speculate why, although, as you know, there was a movement on the same day by two colleagues on Council to bring a resolution to Council to ask the Federal Government to allow a mediator to try to find a middle ground. That motion never made its way onto the Council agenda so ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- Council didn’t take a position.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- you said that you had no issues with financial resources at the time, so why didn’t you just hire a mediator?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, again, the issue the protestors were in Ottawa was not to protest the City of Ottawa but federal and provincial mask mandates, among other issues that the truckers were upset with, so it was not really up to the City to start that kind of a broad-based mediation. What we did do, and what we were somewhat successful, was to secure and agreement by Ms. Lich and those truckers who fell under her jurisdiction, for lack of a better term, and I believe that was successful. We were able to get 40 big rigs and about 60 smaller ones out of the residential area and onto Wellington Street.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So that was not mediation, that was an individual, Mr. French, who came forward and offered, at no charge, the ability to see if there was some common between our police service and the protesters. But in terms of why the Federal Government didn’t want to deal with a mediator, you’d have to ask them.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So Mr. French steps forward. He says, “I can help,” and he finds some common ground and was going back and forth, of course, between the City and the protestors?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So he mediated the issue?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, he was a facilitator because he ended up getting a letter from me, and then a subsequent response from Ms. Lich, and the activities took place, I think, the next day, and then they were halted once the Emergencies Act was implemented, I believe, on the 14th.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And after that agreement was done, the protestors followed the agreement and tried to get onto Wellington, and the only thing that ended up stopping them was the police; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, the police were there, actually, to help facilitate and traffic-manage the congestion to bring them on to Wellington Street and away from the residential area. So a senior officer was assigned and my understanding was that it worked quite well and then the Emergencies Act basically put a halt to that because all resources for police were needed to clear the area the following days.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I put it to you that after the Emergencies Act was invoked -- and you may have heard some of this evidence yesterday -- that there was just a change and that it was the City who decided not to follow through with the agreement with the protestors, and that was what happened with respect to that agreement.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I believe that we did our best to live up to the agreement and as did the truckers, who did move, and we appreciate that ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- because that was the first time, as you know, where there’d been any kind of movement on the ground. There was a level of frustration. There was more and more rowdyism that was talking place on the streets of Ottawa and we felt, as my number one preoccupation was to protect those residents who had been putting up with horn honking 24 hours a day, diesel fumes that were coming into their apartments and condominiums, and general unruliness where people were afraid to leave their homes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so you would agreed then, these statements that have been out by various people, that the protesters did not live up to the agreement are incorrect. In fact, they did.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So I'm not sure who you're referring to.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There's been numerous ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
People ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's okay. But you agree that the protesters lived up to their end of the bargain; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
On that particular issue, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you had early said in your evidence that, you know, you couldn't negotiate with these people rationally, but you did have that done in the end; didn't you?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I didn't get involved in it because I did not believe that I should be personally involved, but Mr. French acted as a go-between between the City, OPS and the group under Ms. Lich. And, you know, we were appreciative of Mr. French. He had really no skin in the game. He was not being paid for this. There was no business angle. I think he saw what was happening and ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- it was his capital as well and ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- took action.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- but I just want to get my question answered. So they said -- you said early you couldn't negotiate with them rationally and you had no dealings with any negotiations with them except for the issue with Mr. French; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I had one call -- one or two calls with Mr. French and then it was handed over to Mr. Kanellakos and Mr. Arpin.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so prior to that time, you had no attempt or nothing of involvement with respect to attempting to negotiate with the protesters; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So your statement earlier that you could not negotiate with these people rationally, you agree that the one time that you actually had any involvement whatsoever you did; right? You had a rational negotiation that resulted in an agreement; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I didn't because I wasn't involved until the final agreement ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- put forward.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The next up is Mr. Sloly's Counsel.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good afternoon, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Afternoon.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Commissioner, may I just before I begin note or ask you what your preference is about the lunch break? Should we -- I have I believe 25 minutes. Could we rise at one o'clock? Would that be ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. We can take 10 minutes ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Ten (10) minutes ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- now and 15 minutes after lunch.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Very good. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So break you up into two parts.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you very much. Mayor Watson, a couple of things if I can, please, this afternoon. You told the Commissioner that throughout this experience, Chief Sloly had your confidence?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that was right up until the time he resigned?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Chief Sloly, to your observation, you obviously were speaking with him during this time on a daily basis?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Almost daily, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Almost daily. During the time that you worked with him and observed him, do you agree that he performed his duties in good faith?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
He did. Obviously, I was not involved behind the scenes, but certainly in any dealings he had with me or senior City staff, we came away confident and impressed, number one. And secondly, I thought he was a very good communicator. He was reluctant to have daily press conferences, which was a bit of a bone of contention, but when he did, I thought he handled himself with distinction.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. And I was going to say, you obviously were not with him during all of the entirety of these operations, but in your observation of him with your colleagues, whether they be political -- members of Council, or political staff, or City staff, he was always professional?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
He was. I think if I could just elaborate on that, I think he found the non-stop flow of questions and complaints and so on stressful, as we all did. And I think at times, he probably was frustrated himself with the volume of work that was coming in and legitimate questions by members of Council because as you know, the members of Council were representing the voices of those people particularly in Sommerset ward and Rideau Vanier that were under tremendous stress. And that stress percolated its way up to everyone within the organization including the Chief. But I certainly -- you know, I never saw him be disrespectful to any member of Council. I think he was firm from time to time with a few members of Council that what you're proposing Mr. or Mrs. Councillor is illegal, but I never saw him lose his cool.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Thank you. And finally, like you and like probably every other person involved in this on the City side, just confining ourselves to that for the moment, he worked around the clock?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, and I think that's the same case for his command team ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- and a lot of our staff and so on. I -- as I said, on -- what I saw of him, I had his confidence, or I was confident in him. I don't know what was going on behind the scenes in terms of the ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- operations. I'd heard through Mr. Kanellakos there was a level of division within the various police forces. Having never been involved in a protest or an occupation of this magnitude, I would not have any knowledge to compare that kind of give and take that we heard was taking place behind the scenes. But certainly, it was my expectation that he would continue to see the operation through and clean out Wellington and Rideau Centre and Overbrook-Forbes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. Now just a couple of things then. You observed and -- that what occurred here in Ottawa last January and February was unprecedented, first of all.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And also, something that had probably not been witnessed for two generations.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you know, as I mentioned earlier to the Commissioner and to Commission Counsel that, you know, I've been in public life as a political representative for 25 years, and nothing comes close to this. Now, I think obviously COVID, because it affected so many people in Ottawa, over 800 people died, that was a bigger challenge, but in a condensed period of time and a condensed section of the city, nothing compares to what we went through. And I think the vast majority of people who saw what was going on empathized with our citizens, but there were those who thought it was no big deal, and that was what was frustrating I think for myself and the frontline officers and the Chief.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Including, as you've described to the Commissioner, your effort to try to engage the other levels of government, the province, the federal government was the source of some frustration for you on the basis that they did not come to the aid of the City and its residents on a -- in a - - in what you would have thought was a timely fashion.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I wanted it to move faster. I suspect the federal government will say, "Well, you don't have your plan ready yet, so why are you asking for resources?" But we knew, regardless of what the plan was, there was going to be a need for a significant number of new police officers coming in, particularly public order police officers, those that basically deal with crowd control. So regardless of the fact that we didn't have all of the Ts crossed and the Is dotted on the plan, we needed, and we knew there was going to be lag time by the time you make the decision and the time they get on a plane and arrive in Ottawa and get geared up, it was going to take some time. So, yes, you know, the frustration I have and where I think there was a failure point was I wish all order of government had worked faster to get the plan ready and to get the officers on the ground and we could have resolved this hopefully by the end of week one instead of week three.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Very difficult -- I think this is -- tell me if you agree, very difficult to finalize a plan, an operational plan until you know what resources you have; do you agree?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I'm not a police expert, so I can't give you an informed decision. I can certainly on the surface of it, we knew that we were going to need hundreds and hundreds of police officers because we were outnumbered a hundred to 1 or 200 to 1. You just have to see the video of the raves and the dance parties and the honking of the horns, and all of the other activities that were taking place. It really stole neighbourhoods away from the people who live in them.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. What -- perhaps more precisely, what I was getting at is that if the RCMP or the OPP in the aggregate had told the City through the proper channels - --
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- that instead of 1800 or 1900 additional personnel, the only personnel available was 1,000 in the aggregate?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
What -- I understand you were -- in listening to your OPS colleagues and Mr. -- and Steve K and others, was it that the finalisation of a plan would require some knowledge of what that number is?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's true.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
If you're sending a thousand people, the plan is different than if you're sending 1,900; do you agree?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
On the surface that is -- makes eminent sense, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, Commissioner, may I suggest, then, I think I've just about one o'clock. Would -- can we rise here and ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. We'll rise until two o'clock.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Mayor.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess until two. La Commission est levée jusqu’à 14 heures.
Upon recessing at 1:00 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. à l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. You're ready to go?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
All set.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. Merci.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
MAYOR JIM WATSON, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY (cont’d)
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Mayor Watson, a couple of things, please, if I can about the -- cast your mind back to it, to the period before the convoy protest came to Ottawa in January. I think you touched on this. The City of Ottawa has a long experience with public protests?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
We do, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Besides quite apart from all of the events that are held by the City, and there are many of them, as the home to the nation's capital and Parliament, the City has a long tradition of respecting the democratic right to protest?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And including protests against mandates and restrictions that were imposed by provincial or federal government as a consequence of the pandemic?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in terms of the use of vehicles, or in the bringing to Ottawa, if I can put it that way, of vehicles by protesters, the City also has a long experience of allowing, facilitating vehicles to come to the city?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, on occasion there's been arrangements made where they'll park on Wellington Street. For instance, I know there was a farm protest sometime ago, and that was arranged in collaboration with the police liaison, and it worked well, and they left after they had their speeches.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in this case, as you pointed out to the Commissioner, the expectation was that the protesters would arrive in vehicles, make their point, demonstrate, and pack up and leave?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think most objective people would see that as a most likely scenario. There was no thought that this thing was going to drag on for three weeks, when... You know, the first time I saw some trucks on Wellington was the Thursday before the Friday, and I think there were two or three pickup trucks with some flags and that was it, and then obviously we received a lot more vehicles on the Friday and the Saturday and it jammed the street.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
There was no indication, of which you were made aware of, that the protest was either expected to last as long as it did or to be conducted in the fashion that it was; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I had no information that it was going to go on for three weeks. I think we saw early on there was a little bit of disorganisation in terms of timing of speakers which pushed their agenda backs, and I thought, you know, worst case scenario they'll be gone back home by Sunday.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. and am I also right that from your perspective as the Mayor of the City of Ottawa there was no indication from your policing partners at the OPP or the RCMP that you should consider this protest to be any different than protests of a similar kind in the past?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall receiving any briefing of that nature. That would've been through the police to the City Manager because obviously there are implications for city services, rerouting of busses, and parking regulations and so on.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And had there been a plan to, or had there been information that suggested that the trucks should be intercepted and not permitted into the city, then obviously your City Manager and the staff below him would have had to engage in a traffic plan and some operations to put the trucks somewhere other than residential neighbourhoods around Parliament Hill?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. So as you know, the jurisdiction for the highway as an entry on to and off highways is the provincial government through the OPP, not the OPS.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. Two other quick things about this, please. Did you understand that Chief Sloly had engaged his Command team and that Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson was responsible for the Operations plan ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- and the Deputy Chief, Bell, was responsible for Intelligence?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's my understanding, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And did you also know that before the weekend protesters arrived Chief Sloly or his delegates had already secured additional police resources from other municipal police forces under Memorandums of Understanding that exist?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I knew he was making those calls with other chiefs, I don't know the extent of it, but my understanding, over the last 25 years, is that, you know, there’s a reciprocal agreement when police services need help. We’ve often been sent to help in circumstances outside our jurisdiction and vice versa. So that -- I just assumed that would be taking place because he has those contacts across the province.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Got it. Can I just show you a memorandum? I hope I have the number correctly; it was a memo that I think you sent. It’s -- can I have some assistance, just please, in dialing up OTT -- I think four zeros; it might be five, 746. And I have “.001” afterwards, if that helps. Just bear with me, Mayor Watson, see if you recognize this document. Yeah, just maybe start there. You see it says, “Draft response to demonstration emails (McKenny comments); it’s dated Thursday, the 27th of January. Do you see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I do, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you introduced the name to us earlier, I think, Robyn Guest; that’s a member of your staff?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Director of Policy, correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then there are a couple of other people to whom that email is addressed at the top, including a witness who appeared yesterday, your Chief of Staff, Mr. Arpin.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Could we just scroll down, please, for the Mayor? Just stop there, if we could, please? Do you recognize this as memorandum that was prepared either at your direction or the direction of your staff for the purposes of communicating with your colleagues on Council?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think -- can you scroll so I can see the whole memo, please?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yeah, sure. Could we please? Just -- I think ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
The other way.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- the other direction, probably. (SHORT PAUSE)
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. This -- this was a letter that was a draft for people writing me via email about the convoy. Because the gentleman it’s from, if you scroll up to the top again, Ben Poirier, he’s our correspondence officer in the Mayor’s office. So he would have received a draft from probably Robyn Guest, in terms of this was the template that we would use initially when people started to write in with concerns about the convoy.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. And I won’t go through all of it, but you described a reference to past practice, to the right to protest in our democracy, and the plans that were in place for a safe weekend.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, understood. Okay, that’s fine. Thanks very much. Along the way a little later, you had -- and again, when I say “You had” the City has a solicitor, I think David White.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Mr. White was requested to prepare a set of options that I think were legal options; I don’t know if this came as a consequence of a direction that you gave or perhaps someone under your direction. But could I please show the Mayor OTT0029767? I just want to, while that’s coming up, Mayor Watson, just to orient you; I believe that Mr. White prepared a set of options -- a list of options rather, that could be considered by Council in respect to the ongoing demonstration. Do you see that? It’s dated February the 7th. Does this refresh your recollection that Council or you directed Mr. White to prepare that list?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, this is a memo to Councillor Deans, so I assume, based on the wording of the first paragraph, she’d asked for this information, not my office. But I remember seeing this. It was interesting to look at the different Acts that were out there, but this was something that I believe Councillor Deans had asked for and it was sent to her from Julia Keast.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And among the options that were addressed in this memorandum of course we see that three of the Federal Emergencies Act, and there are a number of others, including the final one concerning injunctive relief. Do you see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I do, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Were you engaged in any of the discussions that were ongoing about whether an injunction was available and advisable?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I know that Chief Sloly had asked -- I can’t recall the exact date but asked for staff, legal staff for the City of Ottawa to consider an injunction, I believe on the 30th of January; I stand to be corrected on that. And then there was the City asked legal staff to draft an injunction to enforce municipal bylaws on February 11th, and they got the injunction on the 14th. But, unfortunately, then the -- well, not unfortunately but subsequently the Emergencies Act overrode the injunction.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. And so that’s fine, thanks for the memorandum. We can take that down. As to the Emergencies Act, you’ve explained to the Commissioner your perspective about that. From your observation, the Emergencies Act played an important role in the peaceful resolution of these demonstrations.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
It very much did, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the police services that were on the ground were -- provided additional powers, not just to deal with those who were occupying those spaces, but also to deal with anyone who might wish to come and participate in the future.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Can I just ask you now, please, about resources. You explained that Chief Sloly was requested to provide a detailed list of the resources -- particularized resources that the OPS required. You recall that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And am I right that he was asked to do that on February 5th at the -- by Chair Deans and the Police Services Board?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe that’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then provided it the next day, February 6th.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. And we had to redraft the letter and decided that both Councillor Deans and I would sign the letter that was sent to the Premier, Minister Jones, Prime Minister Trudeau, and Minister Mendicini [sic].
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And prior to February 5th, do I have it that Chief Sloly had already engaged in the process of trying to get more resources for the OPS from not just through the weekend but right up -- well, through the whole piece?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. My understanding was that Chief Sloly was making many calls to other police agencies, municipal police services across the country, and that was taking a fair amount of time, but at the end of the day I think it was helpful because they supplemented the resources that we got from the OPP and the RCMP.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the detailed resources plan that the Chief provided and his team provided on the 6th of February, as you told the Commissioner, set out not just a raw number of 1,800, but it was broken down by uniformed police officers, non-uniform personnel, public order units, and various other specialties.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. So it’s quite detailed, and to my surprise there were, you know, references to additional resources for jails and lawyers and other people, not just frontline officers. So it was quite a detailed request, and that was the basis of the letter that we sent to the two other orders of government, correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you. And you and Chair Deans and certainly Chief Sloly were under -- I’ll say pressure but small “p” pressure from your Council members to answer questions about not just these resources, but to identify that specific number that Chief Sloly had given and that you had conveyed, in public; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. I don’t know when that number became public but at some point we knew it was going to get out. But I think the concern on the Police Service’s part was that it was best that it not be public because that shows our hand, to a certain degree, in terms of the magnitude of the police operation to clean up our city.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. And just you got to the question I was going to ask; and just to confirm, it wasn’t Chief Sloly’s idea to publish that number; it was -- as you pointed out, it was inevitable that it was going to come out once there was this caught-in-the-middle status and political requirements.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now, can I just ask you quickly, then, a couple of other things about the news conference where Chief Sloly made the reference, I think it was February the 2nd, that, among other things, there may not be a policing solution to this problem. Did you understand, or do you now understand that what he was getting at was the very issue about resources; that the Ottawa Police Service on its own did not have the resources to deal with this as a matter of its own police service?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, initially I didn’t understand that to be the case. I just thought he might be saying we need, you know, whether it’s a mediator or, you know, some other resource to solve this. And most people, I think, were under the impression -- they were scratching their head wondering, “Well, if it’s not going to be a police operation, what other kind of operation is there?” So I think, given time, that makes more sense when he says it’s not going to be a police operation, because he doesn’t have the resources. But, at the time, I was surprised that he’d said it that way and didn’t really elaborate or clarify what he meant.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Subsequently, of course, he was asked about it and did provide additional clarification.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe that is the case, correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, and as to that issue -- I think you’ve explained this to the Commissioner but just so that I have it -- there was never going to be a solution to this problem unless there were a lot more police service members than Ottawa Police Service members?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely, yeah. There’s no way -- I think any -- even a layperson like myself recognized that the Ottawa Police Service was outnumbered in terms of the resources they had. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, we have a whole city to police. We can’t take all of the police from rural Ottawa and suburban Ottawa; there’s still calls and activities that require police services. They couldn’t all go down to the Byward Marker or Centretown. That’s why we needed to supplement them with the other two forces plus municipal forces.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And do you share the view that there wouldn’t have been any different outcome no matter who was the Chief of Police if the matter was the resources?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I truly believe that. We needed those 1800. That was the best estimate of the police service and their expertise. And in combination, we also needed the Emergency Act or I believe, truly, that we would have been at a stalemate for several more weeks, which would just be intolerable for the public.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then, just to then final, two quick things, then, if I may, Mayor Watson. The resignation, I appreciate that you’ve told the Commissioner that you learned of it when it was announced. Did you have a chance to speak to Chief Sloly in the aftermath of the resignation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I did. It was several weeks later. I invited him to lunch to say thank you for his service. I think when these things are done in a public fashion, it’s not the kindest way to bid goodbye and to thank someone who had served their community so I brought him to a restaurant and we had lunch. We didn’t get into a lot of the details, obviously, of what he went through but I just thought it was my opportunity to thank him for his service.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I think you’ve previously that you regarded his resignation as a true act of leadership?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, you know, obviously there were concerns on the part of some members of the Police Services Board and I think he did the honourable thing, and I stated that in a statement I released.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
There was -- with your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner, I have one -- Mayor Watson, I’m on borrowed so that means you’re on borrowed time. Could I just ask you one quick thing, please, about negotiation to remove trucks from the residential area? I won’t show you the letter that was already described that you wrote to Ms. Lich, and her response, and so on, but do I -- can I have it from you that, in respect of Chief Sloly -- that Chief Sloly was unaware of the final destination of the trucks that were moving out the residential area and the letter that you wrote to Ms. Lich doesn’t describe the final destination of those trucks. There were some references that we’ve seen in other documents to renting farmland -- to leasing farmland, rather, or to parking on the Sir John A. MacDonald Highway. There was some flexibility or uncertainty about those matters; is that fair?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, there was no reference specifically to Wellington but it -- just common sense would dictate, if they’re coming down from where the Garden of the Provinces is, into that area, around this building, in fact, that it would be onto Wellington because there was space on Wellington. Whether the Chief knew immediately or not, I’m not sure, but a senior officer was assigned to help with traffic management, of getting those 102 vehicles out of the site.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Understood. Thank you very much. And your term as mayor is coming up, so thank you for your public service.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
In 22 days, I think, four hours.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And counting. The Ottawa Coalition, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner My name is Paul Champ, Mayor Watson. I ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Hi.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- represent the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have a few questions for you, Mayor, following on your testimony. One question that you just answered to previous counsel, you’d indicated that there was no indication that this protest was going to last. But wasn’t it true, Mayor Watson, that we were aware that -- by the time they arrived in Ottawa, even that first weekend, that they had raised several millions of dollars on GoFundMe to, you know, keep providing them with fuel, and food, and other resources? We knew about that, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t recall exactly when were informed about the GoFundMe. The first time I had any contact with GoFundMe was when their consultant approached my office and, as a result, we had a discussion with three of their senior people asking them to do what they could to prevent the dollars from coming into the community, and they subsequently -- I think a week later -- agreed to freeze the account. And then, ultimately, my understanding was that the money was returned to the individual donors.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Another question or area I wanted to ask you about is your communications with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board. Now, it’s my understanding, Mayor Watson, that you and Ms. Deans, the Chair, you, generally speaking, wouldn’t communicate directly. It would be through your Chief of Staff, Mr. Arpin; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, almost all of the back and forth on this issue was dealt with by Councillor Deans and Mr. Arpin, correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You and Ms. Deans, she doesn’t have your phone number; the two of you don’t directly; is that correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t believe she has my phone number. Actually, very few people do have my phone number. I never keep the ringer on so I don’t rely on that very often. But she had a good rapport with Mr. Arpin and he’d brief me on any item and we did have at least one Teams call, or two, during the course of the occupation.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, while we’re on it, Dean French, he’s got your phone number, correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe he does from my time at -- when I met with him through the Premier’s Office.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You -- throughout this protest, you’ve told us that you would have regular communications with Chief Sloly; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, or his deputies.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, yeah, and that’s what I -- that was my next question. How much or how often would you speak with his deputies -- Deputy -- Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson and Deputy Chief Bell?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
More with Deputy Chief Bell because I knew him better. It would vary. Sometimes it would be one or two calls a day, sometimes there would be no calls if there’s no information. I often got a lot of information from the police via Steve Kanellakos, which was the more appropriate route, and he would provide me updates. As you know, or as you may know, Mr. Champ, my office is right next to Mr. Kanellakos so we’d see each other literally every hour during the crisis.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were getting some information from Chief Sloly and sometimes from his delegates, primarily Deputy Chief Bell?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And Deputy Chief Bell had your phone number?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t know if he did or not. I’m not sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How would the two of you connect?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, usually through a Teams or a Zoom meeting, or he’d be in my boardroom.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what about Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, how often did you speak to her?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t recall I had any conversations with her. I think, at some point, she was -- there was one point, I think, she was on leave but I didn’t really know her. I saw her at press conferences, for instance; when there was a press conference she was often there with the Chief and the other Deputy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, we heard your testimony, Mayor Watson, that you were hearing from both the federal level and the provincial level that there were some concerns about the Ottawa Police Services’ operational plans to bring an end to the occupation; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’d heard a little bit that because of some dispute or disagreement about the OPS operational plans, this was causing some delay in the deployment of boots on the ground?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I wouldn’t equate that -- the lack of a plan with the request for boots on the ground. We needed both. We needed a plan, but we also knew that it was going to require a significant amount of time just simply to get these police officers from coast to coast to coast to arrive in Ottawa and get them set up and get them sworn in, if they were RCMP or municipal police services from other jurisdictions in Canada. So the two had to go in tandem, and I think as the previous lawyer talked about, the reality is that you -- we knew that we needed 1,800, and we had to be flexible enough to determine if we're only going to get 1,000, then the plan would have to change. So I think it was in flux, but there was no question from my briefings by Mr. Kanellakos that there was some argument in the command structure as to, you know, what the right plan was. At the end of the day, I believe they chose the right path because it solved the problem and it brought our residents back to some degree of peace and quiet.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No injuries or anything like that when the plan finally unrolled. I think I agree with you, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, no deaths, no serious injuries, and given the fact the number of people that were involved and the anger level, I'm very grateful that the police did a very professional job ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- and a very -- you know, and I was like most other, I think, Canadians -- certainly Ottawans -- glued to the television watching this take place, as the officers were moving in from Rideau and Sussex, Coventry, as well as Wellington Street and the residential areas.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think everyone in downtown Ottawa is quite grateful to those police and their services.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to some of the concerns or disagreements of the OPS plans that you were hearing, there was some disagreement in the command structure or something like that; is that what you said you were hearing?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. My understanding was that the people who were responsible for the plan, which were the three police forces under the jurisdiction of the OPS and Chief Sloly, there were disagreements. I don't know what the magnitude of the agreements -- disagreements were, nor should I be meddling in the development of a plan, so ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- this was information that was relayed to me from Steve Kannellakos, and as you pointed out, there was some concerns raised by both the premier and the federal minister.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware, Mayor Watson, were you not, that there was -- we'll Chief Sloly no doubt was doing his best to serve the people of Ottawa that during his tenure, you were aware he was experiencing some difficulties with conflicts and friction in the ranks of the Ottawa Police?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I don’t have any specific evidence of that. I think there were some rumblings and rumours, but I could not -- no one came to me directly to say there were concerns. I think any time there's a new chief that’s brought in from outside, there's always some degree of animosity that people think it should be an internal candidate, and so on, and Chief Sloly was brought in really, as an agent of change. I know we'd been well served by Chief Bordeleau, but I think it was remarkable that we had, for the first time in our history, an African Canadian leader who had served the people of Toronto very well for over 30 years. And I was very supportive of his hiring. As you know, I didn’t sit on the Police Board at that time when he was hired, but when I was introduced to him when Councillor Deans brought him around before the announcement, I was impressed with his qualifications and his way of handling himself. And in fact, I think before he moved into Ottawa, I had breakfast with him and just got to know him a little better.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just stepping back a bit about the information you were receiving from the provincial and federal levels about concerns with the OPS plans, we've heard from Mr. Arpin that neither he nor yourself shared that information with Councillor Deans, the Chair of the Board. Can you tell us why you didn’t share that information with Councillor Deans?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, these meetings will the premier and the prime minister were held as confidential meetings, and I didn’t think it was appropriate to breach that confidentiality.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the Ottawa Police Services Board, you're aware, they're responsible for the direction and for directing the chief and monitoring his performance? You're aware of that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, but not directing operational matters. And what was being discussed by the prime minister and the premier and myself was resources to help him implement the plan and rid the streets of the occupied truckers.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was your concern with maintaining confidentiality with the prime minister and the premier? That’s why you didn’t want to share that information with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn’t think that that information might be helpful for the Board to know when they were having their interactions with the chief?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, because the concerns that had been raised by the premier and Ms. Jones were general in nature. There were no specific allegations or -- of wrongdoing on the part of the chief. The same with the Federal Minister Blair. I think Mr. Blair knew Chief Sloly, obviously, as the former Chief of Toronto Police himself, and he, like others, at the political level, those confidential meetings was expressing concern that the plan was not coming together as quickly as possible. And I was putting pressure on everyone to get moving on this, because on the one hand, I was being asked with the support of Councillor Deans to send the letter that we've shown the public today to the premier and the prime minister. And my obsession, really, was to get the commitment by those two orders of government to get more police officers because we knew full well with our contingent of OPS, we could not do the job that the public expected us to do, and that was to clean up what was a horrific experience for your clients and our citizens.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You testified this morning, Mayor Watson, that -- words to the effect that from a leadership point of view, the more information you have to share with partners, the better. And it's important for everyone to be singing from the hymnbook, I think you said, or all on the same team. Following those comments, Mayor Watson, don’t you think it would have been helpful for the Board to know that you were hearing from different levels of government that there were concerns with the Ottawa Police operational plans?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. Again, those meetings were held in confidence and I wanted to respect the confidentiality so that we could have these frank discussions. With respect to the specifics of those meetings, there was nothing really that set off any kind of an alarm, from my perspective, that Chief Sloly was not capable and competent of putting together a plan and overseeing it. With respect to internal divisions, that’s something you can ask Councillor Deans, as she is the Chair, but I don’t have any inside or outside knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes with that command team that were putting the plan together. I can speculate that obviously, once Chief Sloly left the OPS, it was literally a matter of, I believe, two days and the police action started. So one has to assume that the plan that he put in place, by and large, was the plan, and there may have been some tweaking by the new Interim Chief Bell, but I certainly give credit to Chief Sloly for bringing it to that stage, and Chief Bell deserves great credit for bringing it to the actual point where the police officers moved in swiftly, carefully, and succinctly to bring an end to what was a miserable experience for the residents and small businesses of both Centertown, Downtown, as well as the Byward Market ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Lowertown.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- and Overbrook Forbes where the stadium, the baseball stadium is located.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you some questions about the negotiations with the convoy organizers. I believe you testified, Mayor Watson, that the first you heard about potential contact was on February the 8th, that Mr. Kanellakos approached you and indicated that a police liaison team had suggested that it might be helpful if there were some discussions between the mayor and the convoy organizers; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then after Mr. Kanellakos had some contact or had a meeting with some of them, he then reported back to you that the meetings had gone generally well; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, the meetings between?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The first meeting that Mr. Kanellakos had with the convoy organizers, their two counsel and Mr. Marazzo?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. My understanding from Mr. Kanellakos was that it was a respectful, positive, meeting.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
And they would keep the lines of communications open.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then it was approximately two days later, on February 10th, that you had your first conversation with Mr. French; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'm just checking the date here, and that’s correct. Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then that led to negotiations roughly over about two days that come up with those two letters between yourself and Ms. Lich?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had a number of conversations with Mr. French; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. No more than two, the first call, and I believe I had a second one, but I can't recall what the specifics was because I indicated to him at that first call that the primary contact he would have would be with Mr. Arpin and Mr. Kanellakos.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then Mr. Arpin and Mr. Kanellakos, they took over the communications with Mr. French in negotiating that deal with Ms. Lich and the other organizers?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, and I had no other, when the letter was signed, no other contact with Mr. French, but, you know, I can certainly say publicly, I appreciate the fact that he stuck his neck out. There was nothing in it for him, from what I could see. Lots of comments about Mr. French himself and, you know, his time with the Premier, but I found that he was acting in good faith, and that resulted in the letters, which resulted in taking some pressure, not all the pressure by any means, but some small pressure off that portion of the residential area, you know, down by the Garden of the Provinces.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In your two conversations with Mr. French, he indicated to you that he was aligned with the protesters, that he shared their point of view on many issues?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, who was that?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. French. He indicated to you he was aligned ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, he ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- with the protesters?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- he didn't indicate that he was aligned. He indicated that he had contacts with some members of the trucking industry, but he didn't offer an opinion that he supported their grievances or anything like that to me in that phone call. It was simply that he had some kind of connections. I don't know whether he made those connections through his private sector life or through his time in provincial government, but it was very much along the lines that he saw what was happening, and he saw that it was getting worse, and he called me. I literally had not seen or heard from him I think since he left the Premier's office.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He didn't suggest to you that he saw the protesters as patriots or anything like that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now so then you hand over the matter, the file to Mr. Arpin to work out some kind of deal; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Correct, yes, with Mr. Kanellakos' help because he had met with others that were from that same orbit a couple of days or two days earlier.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And did you give any direction to Mr. Arpin to interface or work with the Ottawa Police in his negotiation?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I didn't give any specific directions to him, but certainly, the police were aware that we had this contact because the police were the ones that asked Mr. Kanellakos to engage with representatives of the protest group, because as the liaison team mentioned, they were -- they no longer had any communication. Something went wrong where they stopped talked, so this group went in to see Mr. Kanellakos, and then two days later, we had the Dean French issue. So the police were involved, and both Chief Sloly and Deputy Chief Bell were aware that we had this call from Mr. French. And ultimately, they signed off on it. I think Chief Sloly wanted to make one change to the letter, but unfortunately, the letter had already gone out. And the police then, whether it was the Chief or the Deputy, then assigned a senior officer to go and help with the facilitation the following day to get the vehicles away from the residential area as much as possible.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So there's the initial contact on February the 8th through the PLT or the Police Liaison Team and ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- then the contact was -- with Mr. French is on the 10th and then the letters are worked out on the 12th, I think finally exchanged on the 13th.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Between the 8th and the 12th, do you know when Chief Sloly and Deputy Chief Bell were informed that Mr. French was involved and you were working on negotiations ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I don't recall the exact date. It was obviously sometime between those two dates, but I don't recall the specific date. I remember discussing it with Chief Bell -- or Deputy Chief Bell at the time in my boardroom and he had no problem with it. And that was, again, sometime between the 8th and the 12th. I can't recall the exact time. I don't have a record of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Deputy Chief Bell was in your boardroom at City Hall and was talking about it with you?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, he was there for one of our regular briefings, and we raised it with him at that time. And I don't know if he knew about it at that time, but certainly he didn't express any opposition. He felt that if it helped get some of the pressure off, one of the things he pointed out was that it shrunk the footprint of the protest, which helped the police in the long term contain the situation when they finally went in that weekend.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. Arpin have experience in hostage negotiations or anything like that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. You know, I don't ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Do you know what background experience he had to negotiate a deal like this?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, good will and common sense. You know, we were in a crisis, and we needed all hands on deck, and he's been my Chief of Staff for 12 years, excellent communicator, solid education, and Francophone, and I was -- I had no hesitation in asking him to do this. He was -- over 12 years he was given a lot of different tasks and I had full confidence that he could negotiate this. He was dealing with another former Chief of Staff, namely Mr. French, so they had, I suppose, some connectivity. But at the end of the day, I think what ended up happening was that we were able to get an agreement, we were able to get 40 big rigs, 60 smaller rigs out of there, total 102, 101, and it did shrink the footprint, as Deputy Chief Bell said, and it also brought a little bit of relief for those people who lived in those corridors on Kent and so on farther south down Bay Street.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mayor Watson, I just want to ask you just a little bit about your relationship with other City Councillors. You told us that every Councillor felt overwhelmed, and under siege, and, you know, was getting a barrage of emails from residents and so forth. But you'd agree with me, Mayor Watson, the City Councillors for Sommerset and Rideau Vanier would have, you know, really been experiencing it far more acutely than any other City Councillor; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Although in fairness, absolutely, they were the worst hit, but it had a ripple effect on the whole city because obviously, residents in Orleans work downtown and people downtown work in Kanata and so on. But no question, it was ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- Sommerset and ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- Rideau Vanier ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
People in Orleans weren't having ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Overbrook-Forbes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- fireworks going off their windows and trucks outside their door ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
But also ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, okay.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- I think we have to include Councillor King's ward as well because the baseball stadium was there and that was turning into quite a circus as well with, you know, fires and so on.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. And you viewed or saw what Councillor McKenney was doing during the demonstrations, that they were out in the streets every day and getting out to see what's happening to their residents; you saw that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I saw a number of Tweets and video online, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and you agree with me that was quite admirable of Councillor McKenney to be out there with the residents?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I think there was -- you know, I know Councillor Deans had expressed concern about having counterprotests because it took ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
--- away from police resources, but I think, you know, both Councillor Fleury and Councillor McKenney did good work representing their constituents during a very difficult time.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is there any reason, Mayor Watson, that you didn't reach out personally to either Councillor McKenney or Councillor Fleury personally to offer them any kind of comfort or support about what they were going through during that difficult time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I went back and reviewed that I had at least two calls and one Zoom call with Councillor McKenney. I had two or three calls during the period with Councillor Fleury. And then post the event, I invited both Councillors to breakfast at a downtown restaurant to show our support for the downtown, along with Chief Bell to do a -- our own post-mortem on what went wrong and what went well. And then a few weeks later, I hosted a breakfast or a lunch in my office and invited Minister Marco Mendocino along with Councillor McKenney and Councillor Fleury and our first responders, the Chiefs of the different services to thank all of them for the work that they did, including the two Councillors.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But one on one calls, you didn't have one on one calls with those Councillors during the course of the demonstration; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, I did. I had at least two calls with each of them, and then I think at least one Zoom call with both of them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I guess they forgot that when they testified last week. You'd agree with ---
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, I don't believe that -- that's not what my notes of Councillor Fleury's evidence reflect.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mayor Watson, you would agree with me that there's some political disagreements in City Council?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Every day.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you've been a municipal politician for a long time, Mayor Watson. You agree with me that this last term has probably been a bit more bitter and hostile than ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I wouldn't use those words. I think it's a lot more challenging and lot more pressure filled. You know, when you take into account what this Council has had to deal with, and forget just the Council, the public. There were two tornadoes, there was a flood, there was the massive storm derecho -- I can't remember the name of it. There was COVID-19 that was with us for 2-and-a-half years, and there was the truck convoy occupation. So all of my colleagues and Council, myself included, were feeling the pressure of a very challenging time in the history of our city. You know, as I mentioned earlier, I was asked by some students that I spoke to at I believe Algonquin College the other day last week. They said, "What was the most stressful time as mayor this term?" And I think a lot of them were going to say, you know, the truck convoy. And I said, "Well, actually, not to diminish the truck convoy, but it was COVID. Eight hundred (800) people died as a result of COVID, thousands more were seriously impacted, people lost their jobs, their livelihood, and that was a project that or a challenge that every single citizen of the world had to face. The truck convoy was a terrible experience, but it was for a set period of time, three weeks. It affected dramatically the people in the inner core, but it ended. We're still dealing with COVID and we're still losing people every day. So from my perspective, I think that added a tremendous stress because people were calling and upset with vaccination policies and mask mandates and everything else, and all of that came to a boil, obviously, when we had to deal with the storm and then with the convoy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so just a final question, Mayor. The city was in crisis. It was unprecedented. Residents and businesses were suffering. This was a time for the city to come together, a time to put aside political rivalries. Mayor Watson, do you think you did that, you served your city by getting over political rivalries by bringing all city councillors together, whether it was Ms. Deans or Ms. McKenney or others whom you had disagreements, to lead the city through this unprecedented time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I think it was -- you know, it was Churchill I believe that once said, you know, parliament in his case was not a tea party. You know, people come to these seats after a hard-fought election, they have strong emotions, they have strong opinions on different issues, and there's often clashes. That's the joy, I suppose, of democracy, where you don't have everyone agreeing all the time with everyone else. What our Council went through was horrific. What I tried to do was to provide as much information, do as much work as I could do with the federal and provincial contacts that I had made over the course of my public service career to bring realistic solutions to the problem so that we could give the city back to the people of Ottawa. And ultimately, we did do that. It was not a error-free, problem-free situation, and even Council voted that we apologise to the public, which we did. Because we let down an awful lot of people in Ottawa with a situation that we had never seen before and there was no roadmap to guide us. And given the fact that no one lost their lives, no one was seriously injured, people were affected, but the police, I believe, should be commended. And secondly, I think the Prime Minister did the right thing by bringing in the Emergencies Act because that solved our problem. It's easy to sit back and be a Monday morning quarterback, but the people who were suffering the most were the people of Ottawa, not the people of the West Coast or the East Coast. And so I thanked those colleagues, all colleagues, particular the two that were affected the most, Ms. -- Catherine McKenney and Mathieu Fleury. But all members of Council were feeling the pressure because they were getting emails from around the world, you know, with some pretty vulgar foul language and lots of threats against individuals, myself included.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think that's all my time. Thank you very much, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next is the Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon, Mayor Watson. My name is David Migicovsky ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Hello.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- and I am counsel for the Ottawa Police Service. Mayor Watson, I understand it's not an uncommon experience for the budget for the police to be a hotly debated matter by Council?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct. It's an understatement, but correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I know that for 2022 budget year, which I guess was completed, that process, in November/December of 2021, the budget increase that Chief Sloly had requested was I believe a 2.86 percent increase from the previous year, and what the Ottawa Police Service Board approved was a 2 percent budget increase. Is that your memory?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I recollect that is in the ballpark. You probably have more specific figures. But there was also -- you had to include the assessment growth of the city as well, which was I believe about, I stand to be corrected, about 3 percent on top of that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so according to the media reports, that budget, once it had been approved by the Ottawa Police Service Board, came before Council for a fairly contentious debate, and ultimately, Council did approve the 2 percent increase?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. There was some members of Council that wished to be engaged with this defund the police process, but the majority of Council, myself included, did not support that, and we felt it was important to support the Chief's request. And also, you know, the increase also included, or also included assessment growth, which, I'll have to check back, but I think it was another 2 percent on top of that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, Chief Sloly had requested more from the Ottawa Police Service's Board, but they had not given him what he had been asking for; is that your memory?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe that's correct, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And I believe Chief Sloly was on record telling Council that there would be significant risks to policing. Do you recall that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
In fairness, I'm not trying to be glib with this, but almost every chief says that when they don't get 100 percent of their budget. So I think that's probably what he said. And you know, our job as City Council is to basically vote up or down the budget. We don't get into the micromanagement because the Act says that we can't do that. But you know, we've -- I've been proud of the fact that we've been able to provide annual increases to the police for a number of reasons, including the fact that our population is bigger, we have 2,600 kilometres of road to cover and patrol. It's a big task, and we felt, those of us who supported the police budget, felt that it was an appropriate amount, and it was accepted.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And several councillors at the time in fact voted against the 2 percent increase saying it was too much; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I believe that is correct, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And ultimately, what it took to resolve the protest in Ottawa was a massive amount of resources?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, are you now talking about the ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
The Freedom Convoy.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, it did take a lot of resources, and as I pointed out, we have every intention of recouping those dollars based on the conversations I've had with other orders of government because it should not come out of the base budget of the Ottawa Police Service, which is always hovering around a surplus or deficit every year.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And it took a massive, not only civilian members, but it took a massive number of police officers on the grounds; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, under very difficult circumstance if you recall back. I recall very well the weather was miserable. The roads down in that area could not get plowed so they were almost impassable. It was -- you know, some officers were working 12, 13 days in a row. You know, one of the reasons why the Chief was going out getting supplemental municipal services was to give his officers a day off to recharge their batteries.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
A much needed day off ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- given what was going on on the ground; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely. It was very stressful for them. You know, I saw a lot of news footage over the course of the time where the officers were spat upon and they were yelled at and screamed, and they kept their cool, and you know, for that we're grateful. There were some incidents where I felt, you know, the images of the police being buddy- buddy with someone, a protester was not appropriate, and my understanding was that the police reminded their officers first and foremost they're there to be neutral. And when they did their job they did an excellent job. And I have no problem defending the Ottawa Police Service and the actions that they took to bring this crisis to an end.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ultimately, you have no problem, I take it, in agreeing with me as well that it was brought to a successful resolution under chief -- Interim Chief Bell?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct, yes. And I think -- you know, as I mentioned, it was -- the funny thing was it was -- the Olympics were on and I think more people were watching this activity than the Olympics. Because it was so gut-wrenching to see what was happening to our city for three weeks, and it was such a relief for everyone to see that this was coming to an end. And it was wrapped up roughly in three weeks. There were, you know, scattered groups here and there that lingered on. I remember walking up a couple of days after, just to go to the Rideau Centre, and you know, a number of people yelling at me "f'ing fag", and I knew these were still people that were from the protests, they had upside down Canada flags and so on. So police had to keep the presence in the neighborhood and in the downtown core because there were still people that wanted to do harm to our citizens as well as to our property, public and private.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And, really, this was unprecedented in terms of your career in politics; is that fair?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s right. Nothing comes close to it. You know, I think back; my first month in office I was thrown into the ice storm. That was dramatic but it was not hurtful to people. It was difficult when people lost electricity and so on but this was something that affected thousands of people very personally and was unacceptable behaviour by fellow Canadians to come into someone else’s neighbourhood in that selfish a fashion.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And, in fact, you yourself, I believe, as well as Chief Sloly, received threats during the protest?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, and I believe some members of Council did as well. And I received one -- I think one, two, or three. A couple of people were charged and some guy from New Brunswick was coming down here with guns in his trunk to shoot me and he was arrested.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the police, obviously, took those seriously and took appropriate action?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
They did, and our corporate security, the same, because, you know, people had been outside my house, not necessarily associated with the convoy but other groups protesting, so they installed a security system.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much. I have no additional questions. Thank you.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Government of Canada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Mayor Watson. My name is Brendan van Niejenhuis and I’m one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Hello.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I wanted to start by asking you about some of your concerns that were expressed in your conversation of February the 3rd with Ministers Blair and Mendicino. Do you recall that first conversation with that group?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Let me just get my chronology here.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, so that was with the Deputy Minister, or was it -- what is it here?
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
There’s no indication in the City of Ottawa -- or the documents that have been produced to date that -- and counsel may have information but we haven’t seen any indication that Minister Blair was on that call. We don’t object to my friend’s question. He may very well have been, but if the Mayor is looking for it, I -- that’s probably why, counsel.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
It’s the February 3rd call, Mayor, and I’m sorry if I misspoke.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Oh, sorry. Yeah, you said February 2nd, I think. So February 3rd, yes, the Mayor and the -- no, sorry. Yeah, the tripartite meeting at 5:15, is that the one you’re referring to?
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I believe so. It’s -- it isn’t too material, at any rate. My point really is that, as early as the conversations you were having with the federal partners on February the 3rd, you were already, understandably, growing extremely anxious to secure more resources for the City of Ottawa, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That is correct, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you were getting engagement, certainly, at the political level from the ministers, initially, and later from the Prime Minister; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, can you repeat the question?
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You were getting engagement on these issues ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- initially from those ministers and, ultimately, from the Prime Minister as well; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. No, we had no difficulty having calls returned by federal officials. It was quite a cooperative relationship.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And at the political level, at any rate, you were getting the commitment to do what they could to assist you in getting boot on the ground; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, in theory, yes, but before, you know, we could celebrate, we wanted to see the boots on the ground, so that took a longer period of time. But at the very beginning, they understood clearly -- both Minister Blair and Minister Mendicino, they understood that we needed help and they offered that assistance. We just wanted it faster.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes, sure. And you certainly took them to be serious in their desire to get you that assistance, to the best of their ability, at the political level; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And the purpose of getting those boots on the ground -- and when we say “boots on the ground”, what we mean in those conversations is RCMP officers working on Ottawa streets; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Absolutely, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
The purpose of getting those officers working on the city streets was to enforce the law; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct, and bring order to the downtown, and the Byward, Market and Coventry.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And in your first call with the Prime Minister that my friend took you through earlier, you expressed some, I think, understandable frustration given the situation you were in with the difficulties in the pace of bureaucracy at times; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, I outlined to the Prime Minister that while we had a very positive relationship, his Ministers were doing good work -- I have to thank you to the local MPs, Mona Fortier and Yasir Naqvi, in particular, because their two ridings were the two risings most affected by the convoy -- Minister Fortier, Ottawa-Vanier, including, obviously, Vanier, the Market, Lowertown, Sandy Hill; and Member of Parliament Naqvi, Centretown and the Glebe. So he -- the Prime Minister was empathetic and sympathetic to the fact that we needed help sooner than later and, you know, when we finally did get the help, it was exactly what we asked for. And it worked because we saw the result the following days, the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday where the whole operation was wrapped up quite successfully.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
In the press of events, though, you were feeling a great deal of urgency and you weren’t sure you were seeing enough urgency in terms of the implementation of these efforts; is that fair?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, you know, the interesting thing is, of course, being the Nation’s Capital, the Prime Minister lives here, the MPs are here for their House sittings, and so on, and the senators are, so they were living and breathing what a lot of our residents were, although they had the luxury of leaving and not having to stay in the red zone. But there was -- at the initial stages, there didn’t seem to be the sense of urgency on the part of the Provincial or Federal Government but I think when the Prime Minister got engaged and the Ministers suggested the tripartite table, they set up a structure that we could actually start making decisions and start seeing results. So I think the more calls we had, quite frankly, the better it was because I think they were tired of listening to me hound them for more resources more quickly.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure. And at the same time, there’s matters going on behind the scenes that -- you know, that you may not be able to be aware of in detail and that they may not be able to be aware in all of the detail because they’re operational in nature; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, and, you know, both the Premier and the Prime Minister indicated that, you know, I should continue to work with respective minitisters, which we did. And also, our Chief, Chief Sloly at the time, obvioulsly, was working the phones to ensure that Commissioner Lucki knew exactly what he needed. We followed that up with the letter by Councillor Deans and myself to the Premier and the Prime Minister and their respective ministers and we started to see some action. We saw, slowly, more RCMP officers coming in, more OPP. And then, when the plan was finalized and ready to go, we had the necessary resources of the 1800 in the city to bring an end to this terrible situation.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You, I think very fairly, earlier this morning acknowledged that some of the delays are simply practical delays, particularly when you’re dealing the National Police first, the RCMP. For example, you told us that you understood these officers might, in many cases, need to travel some distance to get to Ottawa; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, and there was -- there was a little of confusion in terms of at one point I was told that there was quite a backlog in getting RCMP Mounties sworn in as peace officers, I guess, for Ontario. That may have been a situation early on by, apparently, they started to do it in bulk and two sessions a day so it sped it because my understanding is that they would not have authority on City of Ottawa property if they weren’t sworn in.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure, and I’ll come to that in a moment. But just, first, on some of the practical, there’s an element of it that’s just practical delay, right, where you’re looking at travel, the need to check in to the hotel, the need to eat; these things take a bit of time depending upon where an officer is coming from, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, I think that’s a legitimate issue. My point was, though, that if we’d started the process earlier and we didn’t have this lag time, we may have been able to go in on the second week instead of the third week. But that’s ---
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure, that’s just common sense, right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If you start something earlier, you finish earlier. But the question is, you know, what’s done as matters unfold. So -- and one of the things that would take a bit of time, too, then, once you’re checked in, once you’ve had a meal, maybe gotten sleep and so forth, is to receive shifts in operational orders and be equipped to go out an start policing; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s right because the vast majority of these officers, maybe not so much for the RCMP who - - some may have been stationed over the years in Ottawa but most of those officers would not know where the police station was, for instance, from the Ottawa Police. So they had to go through some kind of an orientation to ensure that they knew what their instructions were, and, you know, lining up frequency on radios and all sorts of other things that professionals told me had to be done in order for the person to hit the ground running.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure, and you need then to also ensure familiar -- you need to ensure, as you say, familiarity with the place that is being policed and also, that's part of the need to do things in a safe fashion; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you need a sufficient number of officers with clear roles and responsibilities to proceed with a significant public order, a crisis in an environment like this; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And particularly in a place like Rideau and Sussex, for example, where you'd been told about a real concern about a more dangerous element having taken hold; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that was also a top priority for the same reason in terms of the order of enforcement that you understood was likely to occur; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
So I don't quite understand your question.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Rideau and Sussex was a priority for enforcement as the week of February 7th, for example ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. My understanding is from the documentation that Chief Sloly felt that was a higher priority because of the criminal element within that group of trucks and bikers and so on.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That was taken care of, I believe, earlier than Wellington Street, but it was a relatively small group compared to the large number of trucks and people that were in the red zone.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure, but because of that more dangerous element, at least as it was being reported to you, that scenario where you would need, again, to really ensure officer and protester safety?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct. And also, the protection of private and public property, as you know, the Rideau Centre had been closed for something like two weeks, losing, you know, a couple -- 2.1, I believe million dollars a day, so it was -- I stand to be corrected on that number, but it was a significant loss. And the restaurants across the way and the Chateau Laurier, all were being impacted where no one could even go near the ByWard Market, so those businesses were suffering greatly along with the people who live in that area.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now just coming back, you indicated the issue of the officers needing to be sworn in. And I want to ask you a few questions about that, Mayor Watson. Let me go back, first of all, to just, you know, reconfirm, the purpose of having these resources in place was to enforce the laws here; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And in order to do that, you need the law enforcement professionals, the peace officers who are going to be doing that job, they need to be here lawfully themselves; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
They need to have the proper legal authority to be able to enforce before you can get underway with a very significant law enforcement operation; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, we estimated that to be 1800.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if they did not have that legal authority, you might be in a situation where the operation itself might be called into question in terms of its lawfulness as well as any charges that might result?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's very true.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
There might be a possibility of liability accruing to the City or indeed the RCMP or some -- or the individual officer if an officer wasn't lawfully in place at that point in time?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's right. And our police service was well aware of that, and that's why obviously we followed strict rules to have them properly sworn in. And as I said, initially, I was told that that was slowing down the process, but then something happened, whether they added extra shifts, or extra staff, or did it in larger gatherings or groups, that that was covered off and they were now legal to operate in Ottawa.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now that process of swearing in officers to be able to enforce laws within the local jurisdiction, that was also true of other municipal police officers too, right, such as those that came from London and Belleville and otherwise?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe they needed to be sworn in because they were sworn in as officers in all of Ontario.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
With respect to municipal by-laws though.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I'm not an expert on that, so you'll have to ask someone who is, but my understanding was that they did not need to swear in ---
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And at any rate, it is not something that needed to be done, whichever of us is right about that, and you may be. It was not something that needed to be done in the case of the Ontario Provincial Police, right, the swearing in process?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct. It's just the Mounties.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now could I ask if we could pull up OTT00006610? You are, of course, at the Ottawa 7 Emergency Council meeting, Mayor?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I was, yes, I was chairing it.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And quite a number of motions were passed unsurprisingly with respect to actions the municipality should take in response to the convoy that had then been entrenched for just a little over a week?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, there were many, many motions.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I'd like to just focus on a couple of them. The first is at page 10, begins at page 10. And this is a motion that your colleague Councillor Deans -- excuse me, it's the motion at the bottom of the page. It's a motion that we asked your colleagues Councillor McKenney and Councillor Fleury about last week, but it is a motion -- if you go over the -- to the top of page 11, you'll see that it's carried. And what it asks is that, "...the Council [...] formally petition the Government of Canada to assume responsibility for public safety and security within the [...] Precinct and to commit to an immediate and [...] increased level of support [...] to the Ottawa Police, the police force of jurisdiction, subject to the resolution of any jurisdictional discussions between the Ottawa Police Service and the RCMP." Right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that motion's carried, of course, unanimously I take it?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
One descent by Councillor Chiarelli.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Oh, excuse me, I missed that. It's right there in front of me. With the exception of Councillor Chiarelli that was passed.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I want to turn now if we can to a comment that Chief Sloly sent to you the next morning and that's at -- if we can pull up, please, OTT00005837? You see this is an email from Chief Sloly to yourself and Chair Deans -- Councillor Deans copying a number of others from the Ottawa Police and the City Manager, et cetera. Do you see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, I think if you can push it up, so I can see the full email, that would be helpful.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Of course. Do you mind pulling that down? And we'll take a moment to look at that, Mayor, but my question's going to be, first of all, is this is reference to the motion we just looked at?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, it is.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And I'm just going to direct you to the second paragraph there where Chief Sloly's indicating to you, "In Ontario, policing is governed by the Police Services Act. In accordance with [section] 5[...] of [that] Act, the City [...] has discharged its responsibility to provide police services by establishing [its own] police force — the Ottawa Police Service." Right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And he indicates that, "[Therefore,] Ottawa [...] is the sole police service of jurisdiction." But then he continues. He says, "It is [also] important to note that the Police Services Act defines "police force" as either the [OPP] or a municipal police force." You see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that's consistent with your understanding of the -- that's the reason why OPP, for example, need not be sworn in?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And when you compare the situation as you did this morning in Ottawa to the situations that were in place both in terms of enforcement efforts down the road, that were in place both in Windsor and in Coutts, you saw that those operations were able to move more quickly than you perceived they were in Ottawa; is that fair?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes, granted the magnitude of protesters and occupiers was significantly larger in Ottawa than it was in Coutts or in Windsor, so I think we had a much more difficult situation. If you just saw aerial shots or drone shots of the crowds around Parliament Hill and the ByWard Market and the Cenotaph and so on, it was significantly larger than -- you know, I -- looked like -- you know, in Coutts, there might have been, you know, 50 vehicles. Now for a small town and a small crossing, that's a big deal. I'm not diminishing that, but certainly just in sheer volume. And I think if I could just comment on this, I think what Councillor McKenney's motion was trying to get at was that there was a level of frustration that Ottawa Police were on Wellington Street trying to keep the peace and deal with issues of jerry cans coming and so on. And it then stretched our officers and didn't give them the ability to go in and patrol the residential neighbourhoods, which was Councillor McKenney's true -- you know, Councillor McKenney's desire to represent her constituents and protect those constituents, similar to Councillor Fleury. We had, you know, the tail end of the Parliamentary Precinct is in his riding by just the other side of the Cenotaph. So, you know, I think it was an attempt at the motion to ensure that we had some ability to have the Mounties come in and take jurisdiction on Wellington, and then -- Wellington Street, and then it would free up those Ottawa police officers to go deeper into the community neighbourhood. So the Chief came back and obviously pointed out that this was not legally possible to do. And then there was the other issue that we really haven't talked about, I think we talked about -- one other of the lawyers asked me about was the issue of what do we do with Wellington Street on a go-forward basis in terms of access and so on. So that's one discussion, and this is another discussion. But I -- it's clear that Chief Sloly was not consulted on this or otherwise I think he would have told the mover of the motion that what they are proposing is not legal.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Well, I think -- and the point he is making to your point, I think really, is that there's both legal obstacles and there is practical obstacles -- -
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- to getting this to move forward as quickly as everyone wanted; right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. I think, you know, there was the sense that "Well, why don't we just take the Mounties and maybe PPS and put them on the street and then move everyone south?" And I think, you know, Chief Sloly was trying to be respectful and not embarrass the Councillor, but I think he felt an obligation to inform them of the law.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Surely. Surely. This is not a situation like it was in Coutts, where the RCMP was already the police force of local jurisdiction and didn't have to worry about any of those legal obstacles.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. And certainly, I knew the desire to get greater presence in the Centre Town residential communities, and as a result, I certainly raised it with Chief Sloly on at least two occasions, that you needed to see a large presence. We keep announcing we're protecting the central core, you needed to see a large presence, not one or two officers walking down Kent Street or O'Connor, it had to be visible. And you know, again, we couldn't always do that until we had more police officers to share the burden.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now, you told us this morning, I believe, that before the 14th of February, when the Emergencies Act was invoked, that you in fact were not familiar with the particular authority that existed under that Act; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah, just the one memo that we showed earlier that showed that that was one of the options, I think they listed five or six options. It was very brief, it didn't give any details. But when it was introduced by the federal government, and to be very clear, I've been consistent on this since Day 1, we needed that Act. And it's fine for someone out, you know, West or down East to say, "Well, you know, it was overkill." No, we needed that Act. We needed to give our police resources the tools they could use, such as tow trucks, and so on, to actually solve the problem or this thing would've gone on for many, many more days, if not weeks. So I was not familiar with it, but when it was introduced our legal staff provided me with a copy of it, and highlighted the points that we felt we could use to our advantage to clear up this terrible situation.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And one of the points that you've raised in that regard is the important point that the towing issue... And I'm sorry, Mr. Commissioner, I just have to finish this one question.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
But the second aspect of it, Mayor, am I right was that the regulations passed under that Act permitted RCMP officers, regardless of the niceties of being sworn in, to enforce provincial and municipal laws in the streets of Ottawa? Is that fair?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. That was something that was brought to my attention. I had heard a contrary view to that, but I stand to be corrected, but my understanding was that it would allow them without going through the whole swearing in process to be automatically in essence deputised to enforce Ottawa by-laws and Ontario laws.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
That enabled the clearing operation to occur later in the week of February 14th?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, for your indulgence. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next we have the Democracy Fund.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon. Can you hear me? I'm sorry, can you hear me?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can. Go ahead.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALAN HONNER
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mayor Sloly [sic]. My name's Alan Honner. I'm appearing remotely today. I'm a lawyer with the Democracy Fund.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'm Jim Watson, I'm not the Chief.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, pardon me.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think you said Mayor Sloly.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, I apologise, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
All right. No problem.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You told us today that Toronto mayor, John Tory, gave you some phone numbers for some tow trucks?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Names and phone numbers; correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you passed those on to Steve Kanellakos and the City Staff?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And did you ever follow up with anyone after sharing those phone numbers?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, because once the Emergency Act was proclaimed or introduced, I actually saw the two trucks on Laurier Avenue lined up for quite some distance. So there was no need to follow up because they'd obviously done the work that we had asked them to do, was to find trucks.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you recall when you gave those phone numbers to Steve Kanellakos and City Staff?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you'd have to go back and check my text messages, which I believe are on public record, and the phone numbers, and the names and the texts from John Tory were on that. And it was basically I would think an hour or so after receiving them I would've walked next door or had someone walk next door and give them to Steve Kanellakos. I don't know ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Let me interrupt you. I'm just asking you if you recall when you shared those phone numbers. What is the date? Do you know?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I can't remember. It was probably the day or the day after I received the information from Mayor Tory.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And how many days was that before the invocation of the Emergency Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, as I said, I don't recall the actual date I met or I received from Mr. Tory. So if you can give me that date then I work my way back.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So you didn't follow up, and you don't know how many days passed between those messages being passed on and the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Thank you.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I -- well, no, I just -- you asked me a question, I'm going to answer it. If I had the date, which I have back in my office, I can tell you the date that John Tory sent me the text with the names and numbers of the towing companies. And then I would've referred those, either that day or the next day, to Mr. Kanellakos.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you don't have the dates? You don't know?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I have them back at my office. I was told I couldn't bring anything other than the chronology.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You can't tell us now? Mayor - --
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, if I can, I don't think I'm going to be allowed to leave until I get my document in my office, but I can certainly email it to you if you'd like to know. But ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's fine. I'll move on, Mayor. Mayor, you did not speak to Premier Ford or to Sylvia Jones about the tow trucks?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'm sorry?
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You never spoke to Premier Ford or Sylvia Jones about tow trucks; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I would've had -- in my first call with Premier Ford, I indicated to him that we were at a disadvantage because we just didn't have -- we had two OC Transpo trucks and we couldn't even guarantee that they would cooperate. So that was a problem we had. And I can't recall if I told him I was contacting John Tory, but certainly the reason I contacted John Tory was because I saw the number of tow trucks that he was able to mobilise in Toronto, after learning from our example a week or so after, and I wanted to know if he had any TTC or City of Toronto, and he said they had these private companies that came out and they were the ones that -- whose numbers he gave me via text message.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You had two telephone calls with Premier Ford?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Two or three.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mayor Watson, do you know -- you would agree with me that one of the biggest issues for the City was the lack of ability to move the trucks?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
One of the issue for the City was the lack of the ability to move these trucks?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That's correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And trucks, either they had to be towed or they had to be moved by somebody, with keys; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, they had -- yeah, someone would have to drive them out or they would have to be hooked up to a tow truck and lifted out. And that's what happened with those that refused to leave and they were brought to a compound, similar to what ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if ---
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, similar to ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Go ahead.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Similar to, you know, if someone's parking in a no stopping zone, we have the ability with city tow trucks to tow them, but those are for cars, not 18-wheelers.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you know if financial incentives were offered to reluctant two truck drivers?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If those incentives were to be made, who would make them, the City or the police?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Good question. I don't know legally or logistically who would make it, but it's -- the pot of money comes from the same, it's the taxpayer. So whether it's the City budget or the police budget, it's one and the same. I was asked the question with respect to the procurement, and again, I don't know whether it was the police, OPS, or City of Ottawa that procured it. Mr. Kanellakos could certainly clarify that.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm going to just switch topics, Mayor. I understand that someone made a death threat against you, and I'm sorry to hear that. The person was arrested.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt briefly? You're going to have to wrap up quickly.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That is fine. Thank you, Commissioner. In that case, Mayor Watson, let me just ask you, you told us earlier today where evidence came out that these protestors, they were nasty, they were hateful, and they were vulgar; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you said that you saw -- or you said that they had ripped masks off of people?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you actually see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I saw it reported in the media.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I think you also said that certain people were attacked; is that right?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I didn’t say that, no. I said that I had death threats, but I wasn’t physically attacked.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, I didn’t say that you were attacked, but you said that these protestors were attacking people. Did you not say that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. They were disrupting people's lives, that’s for sure, and they refused on at least three occasions that I'm aware of that they refused to adhere to the provincial mandate of wearing a mask when going into a shop or a restaurant.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you're not aware of any incidents of physical violence from the protestors?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, you'd have to ask the police. I know they arrested a couple of hundred people and charged a couple of hundred people. I don't know what the charges were, so I'm not privy to that information.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
According to your knowledge, you don’t know of any?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sorry, I don’t know of any?
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Of any physical attacks.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Not to my own personal knowledge, no.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'll call on the CCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUJIT CHOUDHRY
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Thank you. Mayor Watson, can you hear me?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I can now, yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good afternoon. My name is Sujit Choudhry. I'm counsel for the CCF. We just have a few minutes, and I know it's been a long day for you, so I have a number of quick factual questions I hope you can answer.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Sure.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So did you ever request Prime Minister Trudeau to invoke the Emergencies Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No, I didn’t.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Did you ever request Minister Mendicino to invoke the Emergencies Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Did you request Minister Blair to invoke the Emergencies Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. I can save you. I didn’t ask anyone to invoke the Emergencies Act, because at the time, I did not know what was contained in the Emergencies Act.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
At the time, were you familiar with what was contained in Ontario's Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I was given a copy of it and I read it, but I can't recall the specifics of it at this point. But I was certainly shown it and was -- a copy of the documentation was sent to my office from the provincial government.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Did you ever discuss the Act? Pardon me, sir.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yeah. No, I -- with the premier?
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Yeah, or with the Solicitor General.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So you never requested that the premier declare an emergency under that Act?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
No. My preoccupation with the premier was getting resources, namely, police resources, and compensation for businesses and individuals that were affected negatively as a result of the occupation. Those were the two areas that I spent most of my time with the premier. And to his credit, he delivered, along with the prime minister, funding for compensation for the small businesses in those zones that were adversely affected.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So Mayor Watson, are you aware that under that law, once the premier declares an emergency, the premier can issue an order to regulate or prohibit travel or movement to, from, or within any specified area?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Well, I'm at a disadvantage because I don’t have a copy of it, but if you're telling me that’s the Act, I have no reason to not believe you.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Or that the premier can issue an order to evacuate individuals or remove personal property from any specified area?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Again, I'm going to take you at your word that that is the case, but I don’t have a copy of the Act or the proclamation in front of me, but I did read it when it did come in several months ago.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Okay. Good. Mayor Watson, those conclude my questions. Commissioner, thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to call on now the City of Ottawa.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
This appears to be the inherent risk in going last, but we have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Mayor Watson, if I could just ask you on one subject, you mentioned at one point that the -- when you were having discussions with respect to the federal government, and I think you mentioned something about you couldn't go to the provincial government and berate them unless the federal government came across first. And you also said at one point the feds needed to do their duty, and that was with respect to policing. How do you see the federal role? Do they have an equal obligation, in your view, for the policing with the province, they're equally responsible, or do you see it differently? I'm just trying to understand, let's just say, because you were in the province before and you're now with the City. So I'm trying to understand that relationship.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
I think that’s a good point, Commissioner, in the sense that Ottawa -- I'm not trying to be a braggart about Ottawa; I love the city I live in -- but we are a little different than most other cities because we're the Nation's Capital in addition to being a municipal entity under the Municipal Act of the Province of Ontario. And we have a large presence of government buildings and significant important buildings, whether it's the Supreme Court or the Parliament Buildings. And there is -- the mandate objectors were primarily focusing on, as I understand it, the federal mandate to cross borders and wear masks in planes, and so on. And we were caught a little bit in the middle, so I was equally frustrated by both orders of government, and I ended up, as you saw during the number of meetings and Zoom calls and so on, my constant prodding to get them to take this situation to a more urgent level. And so well, if we were another city that didn’t have the large federal government presence, everything from the National Cenotaph to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier to the Ambassador core, I think your point would be well, you're no different than a regular city under the Municipal Act. I think we have that special responsibility as the Nation's Capital to ensure that when people come here, they come here feeling safe and secure and proud of their Nation's Capital. And I just wanted to get across to both orders of government that we could not do this on our own. We were -- literally, our back was against the wall. It was a very frustrating experience. But -- you know, and I've been critical of both orders of government, but I do have to say, if you allow me, I appreciate -- yesterday, I was with the prime minister and the premier at an announcement, and the premier was asked if he supported the Emergencies Act, and he said he'd sit shoulder to shoulder with the prime minister. There was that unanimity, myself as mayor, the premier, and the prime minister. All were at wits' end as to how to end this peacefully without any harm to citizens or protestors. And the end result, notwithstanding a very miserable experience for people who lived here during that three weeks of hell, the police did an excellent job getting the situation resolved. But we now have to remain vigilant because this thing can pop up at any time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. I guess my question was, you said the feds need to due their duty, and my question is really, do you see the federal government and the province having equal responsibility for policing in this area? Do you see that?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Yes. Yes, for the -- for a number of reasons, but I think it was a joint responsibility because we needed all hands on deck and we went farther than just the provincial police and the federal police. We went and reached out to municipal police forces across the country that brought resources into the city to help us as well. So the answer to your question is yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And thank you for the time you took to come here. And good luck on your last stage in a very distinguished career.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you very much, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now, while Mayor Watson leaves, I believe we’re going to be filing some documents.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, before we do that ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, sorry. Oh, I forgot. Mayor Watson, there is a possibility of re-examination. I’m sorry.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes. It’s not actual re- examination but I have been asked to just reference the document that Mayor Watson has in front of me by -- in front of him, rather, by Doc ID so that it can be clear for the record. And the document is the timeline of events submitted by the City of Ottawa in its Institutional Report; correct?
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the reference for that is OTT.IR.000002, maybe six zeros but “2” is the last number. So that’s just for the record, thank you.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Would you like your -- should I give this to someone?
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
No, you can keep that, thanks.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, Mayor Watson.
Jim Watson, Mayor (Ott)
Thank you, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now we’re going to just -- before we go to the next witness, we’re going to file some documents, which is going to be a weekly event.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is John Mather. I’m one of the Commission counsel. As the Commissioner indicated, we are now going to enter into evidence a number of documents, and this is something that we expect that Commission counsel will do every week. To provide some context to the public, the Commission has received more than 60,000 documents as part of its investigative process. Commission counsel have identified, and continue to identify, documents that are relevant to the Commission’s mandate. Many of these documents will be entered into evidence as you’ve already seen through the examination of witnesses. They may also be entered into evidence through reports that are filed by the Commission or by institutions that have an interest in the Commission’s proceedings. Given the Commission’s timelines, however, we are not able to introduce and material documents in these manners, and some of these documents, then, will just be entered through this process. These are documents such as affidavits the Commission has received, meeting minutes, situational reports, other standard records and correspondence. On a weekly basis, Commission counsel advised the parties about the documents that they intend to admit into evidence the next week. These are documents that the Commissioner may refer to or rely on his final report and, for this reason, the parties are given an opportunity to object to the admission of any of the documents before they are admitted. Today, we are entering the first batch of these documents. There are 447 documents in total. They include, by way of example, City Bylaws for the City of Ottawa, City Council Motions, Minutes of the City of Ottawa and the Ottawa Police Services Board, and Letters of Request for Assistance relating to the City. As noted, these are documents that the parties have had the opportunity to review and advise whether or not they have an objection and we are admitting those documents over which there was no objection. These documents will be posted to the Commission’s website in the coming days and again, as I noted, this will become a regular part of these proceedings. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now, next we’re -- we have a further witness, Mr. Rodriguez? And perhaps what we can do is start that evidence and maybe a break in, say, about somewhere around four o’clock, if that’s agreeable.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Of course. For the record, Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Commissioner Counsel. And the Commission would like to call its next witness, Kim Ayotte.
The Registrar (POEC)
Will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I prefer to swear on the Bible, please.
MR. KIM AYOTTE, SWORN
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Ayotte.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Good afternoon.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Nice to see you again.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Very nice to see you, thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You had an interview with Commission counsel on August 8, 2022; do you recall that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And have you had a chance to review the interview summary that was generated from that interview?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I have.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And, at this time, do you have any corrections to make to that summary?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I do not.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, so we will not proceed to enter that into evidence as WTS20, and I’m just going to pull it up. And this is your witness summary, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That is correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, excellent. Thank you. I want to cover a few short areas with you just to maybe clarify a few issues that have come up in the last few days. You were not originally intended to testify and some issues have come up that we think you might be able to clarify for use. The first area is with respect to the issuance of permits; can you confirm whether any permits were ever sought or issued for this protest?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I’m not aware of any permits being sought and I know that none were issued.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, there was some suggestion, I believe, that some -- that a permit was granted for some Porta-potties; do you know anything about that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
There were no permits granted for Porta-potties for the City of Ottawa. I personally authorized the use of some Porta-potties at the early stages of the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, but that was not in response to a permit request, was it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct; it was not in response to a permit request.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And this was just your own -- your own incentive?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, thank you. I want to talk a little bit about Bylaw and Fire Services and your role as the -- you’re the General Manager of the Emergency and Protective Services, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, that’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so Bylaw Services reports in you; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, they do, through a Director, Roger Chapman.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And is that the same for Fire Services?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, through the Fire Chief, Paul Hutt.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so I want to understand a little bit more the relationship between Bylaw and Fire, on the one hand -- and Fire Services -- and OPS in the -- over the course of these events. And “these events”, obviously we’re talking about the convoy protest in Ottawa and January and February of this year. And I want take you, just to refresh your memory and provide some context, to OTT2120, so 2-1-2-0. And the document is entitled “Media Availability, January 31st, 2022” and you’re the custodian of this document. It was brought to us by the City of Ottawa. It was produced by the City of Ottawa and you were listed as the custodian. Did you author this document?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I did not. This would -- this was authored by our Public Information and Media Relations Department; however, we do provide input into it. And this is a document that’s prepared for me for media releases or for media events where I may get asked questions in certain areas, and these are the messages and responses to some of those areas.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you would have reviewed this document before any key messages were delivered to the public based on this, right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so, if we look at the fifth bullet point -- so there’s a few questions there. Yes. So it says: "What was Bylaw’s role this weekend?" And by “this weekend”, it means the first weekend of the convoy since this is dated January 31st. And it says: "How did they support Ottawa Police and what kind of infractions were incurred?" And then it says: " Bylaw and Regulatory Services’ role is to support the lead enforcement agency, Ottawa Police, to keep demonstrators peaceful by assisting with parking control and other issues as requested by the City of Ottawa." (As read).
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, “demonstrations peaceful”, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
“Demonstrations”, yes, thank you. So can you explain what Bylaw’s role was in that weekend, meaning, did it have the role of enforcing, as requested, or could it enforce on its own initiative?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
So in Ottawa, we work under an Incident Management System, which is document also recognized by the Province of Ontario with regards to any type of incident or any type of event that we’d participate in. Through that system, we identify incident commanders or agencies that have jurisdiction and agencies that play support roles. And in this particular case, as it was a protest or demonstration, it fell under the authority, the sole authority, quite frankly, of the Ottawa Police Service and we were playing a support role. So we would assist, or we would attend and do By-law enforcement; however, we would always report to police with regards to what we were seeing and if there were any potential threats towards our officers with regards to, you know, violence or anything of that nature, then we would certainly back off and ask for police support to go in. So initially, that was the mode of operation. We would report to police, and we would allow By-law officers to issue tickets. Our primary purpose was to maintain the emergency routes on the first weekend to ensure that vehicles -- the emergency vehicles such as firetrucks and paramedic vehicles, et cetera, police vehicles can actually make their way around the city as all of those things were preplanned prior to the demonstration to look at every risk and every building, to identify how we would respond should there be an incident at any one particular building.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now did you participate in the update that Chief Sloly gave the briefing on January 26th with respect to what to expect when the convoy arrived? I believe the mayor was involved and Steve Kanellakos. Were you there as well?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I was.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in that briefing or anytime before or after, was it suggested to you that By-law would not be issuing tickets and towing on that first weekend?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, what happened is on the 29th, which I believe is a Saturday, we received information through the EOC, through our Emergency Operations Centre, that By-law had encountered some difficulties in the field, and that now the police have established a red zone and By-law was to not issue tickets in that red zone unless it was approved or through the NCRCC, the National Capital Regional Command Centre, and that By-law was escorted into that zone, and that was on Saturday the 29th.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So prior to the 29th, was By-law exercising its authority to issue tickets and to tow independently?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, it was, with the understanding that any single point of contact could cause a potential serious incident or riot, and that was something we heard regularly from the police, so we were very cautious on that front, and we advised our officers to be very careful not to be that point of contact that could initiate a riot. And as a result of that, we were asking them to be very careful, and if they were fearful for their safety, that they should, you know, back off and seek police support before issuing any infractions.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So on Friday the 27th when they started to arrive, Saturday the 28th, By-law was functioning as it would normally at any regular day, issuing tickets and enforcing as it normally would?
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, Counsel, just for clarity, Saturday is the 29th. I just don't want the witness to be confused.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Sorry, my apologies. I keep thinking that Saturday was the -- okay. Got you. Sorry, so Friday the 28th and Saturday the 29th. So up until that point on the Saturday, on the 28th, everything was -- By-law was acting as it normally would and on the 29th, something occurred for that to change.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes. What we mean by By-law acting as it normally would, again, as a support function to the police. It's tantamount to if we have a major house fire, fire is in charge, and they're incident command, and then the police come up, and they don't tell police what to do, but the police support the fire operation. Actually, a better example would be if there was a shooting and there was a victim inside of the house and our paramedic service was to respond, they wouldn't just run into the house after the victim without first clearing with police who are in charge of the incident because of the severity of it, clearing with them that it's safe for them to go in and do so and actually take care of the patient. So there are agencies that have jurisdiction based on the severity or the incident they're dealing with. And in this particular case, a protest was a police jurisdiction, so we would take -- By-law would not report to police, but they would certainly take their direction from police if required because the police were the agency having jurisdiction.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So that was decided at the outset, that that's the way it was going to work prior to the arrival of the convoy; right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's how it always works for protests in the City of Ottawa.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so on Saturday, you're saying that something changed on Saturday; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I received notification from the EOC through regular briefings, and we receive a lot of them, that, yes, there was -- By-law encountered some difficulties. I wasn't given all the specifics with regards to what had happened, but I was told that as a result of that, the stance has changed and that a red zone's been established, which is probably concurrent with the red zone that was established for traffic management, et cetera, and that By-law should not go into the red zone unless a director approved -- I can't remember the exact words used, but there is documentation on this -- and supported by protection of the Ottawa Police.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And when you say the red zone, what did you understand that zone to be?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
So the red zone would fluctuate throughout the protest based on the amount of vehicles coming in. So originally, the red zone was, you know, primarily the downtown core, and then it expanded to include Rideau and Sussex because of the activity there. It also included Coventry eventually. And then it expanded up south of Wellington based on the vehicle location. So again, where the protesters were, were generally where the red zone would expand and contract, based on police activity. And so it was fluid, quite fluid.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so what was By-law's role outside of the red zone?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
By-law's role outside of the red zone was to continue to enforce City by-laws, recognizing that if they encountered any vehicles with protest paraphernalia or any type of suggestion that vehicles were involved in the protest, which happened in certain hot spots throughout the city, whether it was the Vanier Church or Bronson Avenue, that if it was related to the protest, it still required some sort of police either support or notification that you're going in and enforcing your laws.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you're saying that there was an integration then with NCRCC, does that mean that calls to By-law to 3-1-1 were being redirected to NCRCC?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, it depends on the call because some of them were -- whether it was anti-masking, pandemic type calls, or whether it was, you know, parking calls, or noise was a big one, obviously, illegal fires, et cetera, so in the hot zone, following the 29th, yes, those calls would go to Ottawa Police to triage and the NCRCC if they were to be acted on.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so I just want to be -- I just want to clarify in your witness statement, just to make sure I make sure that that is, you know, in line with what you're saying now. In your witness statement, and we can pull it up if that's helpful to you, but it says, "OPS directed the City on January 29 to instruct By-law officers not to ticket or tow vehicles anywhere in the red zone without police approval." (As read) Is that essentially what you're saying about what happened on January 29th?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, that's a paraphrasing of what I had been advised of through the EOC.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So this was told to you through the EOC. Bev ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- Gooding would have been the one to inform you of that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so that stance from January 29th about the red zone and that By-law was not to ticket and tow without police approval, that didn't change throughout the protest; did it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Well, in the -- the enforcement stance changed, and I believe it was in approximately February 4th, where police wanted to take a more aggressive enforcement posture and they established a special team where By-law and police would work together, and just go out and start ticketing in full force. And so that was called a quick response team, I believe is what it was called at the time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, but the stance that By-law could not ticket or tow without police approval, that was maintained throughout the entire protest?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
In the red zone, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
In the red zone. And as you said, outside of the red zone, if there was some sort of indication that the vehicle in question was related to the protest, then the police would make the decision as to whether or not to ticket or tow; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct. And if I didn't say so earlier, it was primarily as a result of officer safety. You know, our officers are not trained to the level of police officers. They're not equipped with the same type of tools that police officers are equipped. They are trained to deal with contact -- or conflict, but mostly verbal and so, I mean, we were very concerned about what we didn't know; right? I was not informed of all of the intelligence that the police had with regards to the element of the crowd. And what I was basing a lot of my decisions on was based on what I was seeing south of the border when, you know, buildings are burning, and riots are happening, and people are dying. And when we were preparing for a worst-case scenario for this event, that's the image I was trying to, one, avoid, but, two, prepare for in the event that we got to that point.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And Mr. Kanellakos testified yesterday that sometime in the second week there was an integration between OPS and By-law to ensure By-law safety. Do you have a sense for when that was; do you know?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
In my head, I believe it was around February 4th where they established those quick response teams and that’s where they would work together.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you’re saying that was primarily for by-law officer safety; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It was for everybody’s safety; right? Our concern is not just for the by-law officers; that’s my primary concern because they’re my -- they’re not my officers, they work with me, but I’m also concerned for the protestors’ safety, for police officer safety; there were lot of people in the protest who weren’t angry but there were a lot of people in the protest who were angry. So, you know, we have to protect everyone.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when 311 calls were being redirect to NCRCC, was that within the entire municipality of Ottawa? How did that work exactly?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I can’t speak to how the 311 triaged the calls at that point in time; I know that By-law would have worked with them directly to say, you know, here are the, you know, standard questions, you know, questions you would ask and based on the information you received, it would either go to the police or it would go to By-law.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And are you aware of any instances in which By-law wanted to act and wanted to enforce some By-law violation and they were prevented from doing so?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
For most part throughout the incident and not enforcing what they do for a living was a moral hit for the by-law officers. They were frustrated that in the media they were being criticized for not doing their job when in fact they were told not to do their job and, you know, for the senior leadership, we understood why that was there. We tried to relay that to our by-law officers, but yeah, there was a moral issue and a want to go out and do their job, and they certainly proved that in the follow-up protest that came to town, whether it was Rolling Thunder or even on Canada Day, they enforced a lot of their activities then.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if a vehicle did not appear to be related to the convoy, that vehicle could be ticketed or towed? There had to be some discretion. So if it was in a no stopping zone, it was towed no matter what, even if it was related to the convoy because we needed to keep the emergency routes opened, and they did an excellent job keeping the emergency routes opened. We did ask our officers to use some discretion because, you know, the perception of us ticketing our citizens, you know, of a vehicle and then not ticketing one because next door it’s a convoy, it was just not proper and it wasn’t appropriate. So we did ask them to use discretion and to be careful on when they ticketed citizens that were mixed up in with the convoy because it just looked like we were taking sides, and that’s not appropriate, and that’s not what we were trying to do.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And quickly, it appears based on the evidence we’ve received so far, that there were numerous fire code violations and other infractions that would involve fire services, such as open fires in barrels, stockpiles of fuel, illegal fireworks, et cetera, and not just in the red zone, but in residential areas as well. So I want to ask about how fire services, which is also under your direction, was able to exercise its function within this system that you’ve now described where by-law is essentially integrated with the police.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Exactly as by-law did; it would go through the NCRCC. There was a fire representative in the NCRCC in the event that there was a major incident that would occur; they were able to provide very quick situational awareness on what the incident is and how they were going to deal with it from a fire perspective. But with regards to enforcement of the fire code and open air burning, it was the exact same thing; we would either receive a complaint through 311 or -- and we would advise the NCRCC and they would say, you know, we know we have a fire. They go, yeah, we know it is -- we know there’s a fire there and the police would actually make the decision, do we go in or don’t we go in? Some of it was based on their resources, others was placed on the criminal element that was holding the fire, but for the most part the fire took -- not their authority, but certainly direction from the police with regards to it. And they did it on several occasions where they did go in and put out fires.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But that was with OPS support; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Exactly, always with OPS support.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so if fire services saw potentially a dangerous situation and it wanted to act to remove that hazard, they had to have OPS support in order to do that; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct, and that was seen with regards to the removal of the flammable liquids at two of the sites where there was, you know, an accumulation of a quantity of flammable liquids.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so fire services never acted on its own authority, like independently from the police?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Fire services would go out and do inspections on their own, whether it was under cover or whether they were, you know -- just to see what they can observe; they would report back through their chain of command and they would get direction from the police on when can we go in and deal with this issue. Report the risk and then let the police identify when the police had the resources to deal with the risk.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’re going to take our afternoon break now, and thank you very much.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Okay, thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back at 4:15.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
Recess for 15 minutes. La commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 4:00 a.m.
Upon resuming at 4:20 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. A l’ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.
MR. KIM AYOTTE, Resumed
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODIGUEZ(cont’d)
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Welcome back, Mr. Ayotte.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If I can take you to OTT9778, and before we do, I have been asked if you can please slow down your answers a little bit -- I am also guilty of this -- for the purposes of the translation. So I think we will both try to speak a little bit slower, if that’s okay.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Agreed.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. And this is not the document I wanted, 9778? Yeah, okay. Well, it may be that I have it wrong here in my notes, but in any event, if we can actually go down, this is -- I didn’t want to take you to this one before something else, so we can go to this document. That’s fine. So this, my understanding, is a letter that you wrote to Mr. Paradis, who is the Director of Real Property Services at Public Services and Procurement Canada; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the purpose of this letter?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
We were trying to get security around the Cenotaph in that it had been desecrated, you know, several instances had occurred overnight, and we wanted it protected, and so I put the request in through the EOC to contact the federal government to see if they can provide security services and/or a fence around it so that we can protect this very important site, at which time I received notice that yes, they wanted it in writing, so I proceeded to put it in writing.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you contacted them first and they said, "Put the request in writing," and that’s what this is; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did they provide that fencing, and did they put that fencing up?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, they did.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did this request come from OPS, meaning did OPS ask you to reach out to procure this fencing, or was that something the City did on its own accord?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It came through me through the EOC, which has an OPS Sgt. at -- in the EOC. So I believe it came through the OPS, and that they did not have the resources to secure and protect the site, and they were asking if the federal government could actually provide that security.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So OPS, through the EOC, was asking the City to ask the SPC to provide this fencing?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we can take that down now. I wanted to ask you about towing and towing capacity. My understanding is that -- and I had a document ready for that, but it's the wrong one -- in any event, that there were about 28 vehicles that were towed that first weekend. does that sound about right to you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That sounds correct, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And my understanding is that most of this towing was directed at ensuring that the emergency lanes were clear; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And were any heavy trucks ever towed by the City at ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- any point?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So any towing and any towing numbers refers to pickup trucks and passenger trucks, essentially, passenger vehicles; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That is correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, we see later on -- and I think you'll agree with me -- that minimal towing happened subsequent to that first weekend? There were sometimes there would be no days where -- sorry, there'd be days where there'd be no towing, and there'd be days where there'd be one or two vehicles towed. Does that sound about right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so we heard that towing companies were not willing to participate in towing for various reasons, and that was the reason why towing wasn’t more aggressively pursued; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Well, there were two issues there. One is, towing of small vehicles, we were still accomplishing that, but we had to work within the red zone, and the emergency routes were staying clear. So I think the protestors got the message early on that we were going to have zero tolerance in the emergency routes for the protection of the citizens and themselves, and the buildings of the City of Ottawa. And but secondly, is the larger vehicle towing was the real challenge for obtaining those tow services. And so we reached out -- well, the EOC again reached out looking for resources. We were getting it from all different directions. The police asked the EOC to see if they can make some contacts. The police were also making contact with various tow companies. They were asking if we had any contact with the province, so through the EOC again, we were contacting the province to see if they had resources. The mayor suggested that, you know, Mayor Tory in Toronto had contacts. We did receive those from the mayor. And again, we would inquire with regards to the availability of towing. And for the most part, it was no, they didn’t want to participate, and initially, they were sympathizers, for the most part. The other thing was that it was their client group, and you know, their reputational risk down the road with regards to losing those clients. I didn’t hear damage to trucks much, but then they came out and said it was a driver safety issue, and that’s what they kept bringing forward all the time following, you know, other discussions with them. Any leads we had or any possibilities of towed were passed down to EOC or sorry, the work was being done by the EOC to make these contacts. They were provided to the police and police ultimately made the contacts and got the appropriate tows to end the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But the towing that was being procured or was being looked at was heavy towing capacity; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so in terms of the other towing capacity, towing capacity for passenger vehicles, the City had that, right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes. We had those contracts. They were still willing to do the smaller vehicles. There were delays in obtaining tows at times, and that caused some issues, but for the most part, we were able to tow if we needed to tow smaller vehicles.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And passenger vehicles or smaller vehicles include pickup trucks, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So the reason there were 28 tows in the first weekend and very minimal towing after that, there was no other day where there were double digit towing? It was one, two, sometimes zero vehicles being towed? And there is a chart that will be entered into evidence that shows the number of vehicles that were being towed every day. Is that because the towing companies that had been towing that first weekend refused to continue towing, or is it because bylaw was not requesting additional towing of passenger vehicles after that first weekend?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It's not the first thing you mentioned. It wasn’t because we couldn't get the tow trucks. It was primarily because the emergency routes were being maintained and they were open. And that’s what we normally find with a major event, is the first few hours, you get a lot of people who aren't familiar with the closure of the emergency lanes or keeping those -- the no-tow zones, and then, you know, they get towed and then the word gets out quite quickly that those are no-tow zones and -- or tow zones, sorry, and then, you know, things self-correct, to a certain degree.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the purpose of towing was exclusively to maintain emergency lanes; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That was our priority of towing, yes.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if the emergency lanes were maintained, then no towing would take place, generally?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So let me ask about emergency lanes then. I'm trying to -- I want to understand a little bit about how they worked. So the question is whether emergency lane -- there was an emergency lane maintained on all streets, or whether certain designated routes were ensured that they had an emergency lane, north-south and east-west. Can you shed some light on that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes. Only certain routes had emergency lanes. Again, these were all preplanned, so part of our planning cycle -- and we do this for all events and demonstrations -- is we have a City department, Transportation Department that actually has experts that look at traffic flows and you know, how to best manage the traffic and the incident. And it's called TIMG, the Traffic Incident Management Group. And they work closely with police to identify, you know, how are we going to manage the incident that’s being proposed or coming forward? And they would close certain lanes; for example, Kent Street was closed completely. There was no emergency lane on Kent Street. And there were a few other streets like that. But for the most part, we had the emergency routes that we had identified through the group were maintained throughout the protest.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if an emergency occurred on Kent Street, a street that you've indicated was completely blocked off, so a building in the middle of Kent Street there is a fire or some emergency, how would the emergency vehicles get to that street?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
We were able to access it through other streets. So, you know, the streets that are running perpendicular or parallel to it, the buildings were accessible by other means.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It's not an ideal situation, but it was the best situation that we could come up with based on -- -
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I assume then that there would be some areas that would not be completely accessible. If a lot of streets were closed off completely or there were several streets that were closed off, then there would be at least some buildings that would have been inaccessible to emergency vehicles?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Every building was preplanned in that they would -- you know, fire and paramedic service would look at their CAD and look at what they were dealing with in the preparation for all of this, and they do it for other City events such as Canada Day, et cetera. And they go, okay, so how are we going to get there if there's an incident, and what's the biggest risk incident that we have in this building. So, let's say, for fire, it would be a fire, you know, a major fire. And then how would we access it. And we ensure that we have multiple access to every building. Even so one street could be closed but you might still have three other streets that actually, you know, encapsulate or surround that building. So those buildings were all -- we were sure that we could attend all of those buildings. It wouldn't be an ideal response because sometimes you'd want to put your ladder truck, let's say, on Kent Street to actually bring the ladder or tower up to access certain floors, and that wouldn't be available. But there was always a plan to how do we actually assess and manage these types of situations when we're faced with them. So we were comfortable from an emergency service that we could access the buildings that we needed to access, given any emergency.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And when you said the CAD, they would look at their own CAD, what did you mean by that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, so fire services has a computed-aided dispatch system, so it's a ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, can you repeat that? Computer ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Computer-aided dispatch system.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
So it identifies, you know, the streets, where the hydrants are, the buildings, the height of the buildings, you know, what the risk is for the building. So, you know, a hotel would have a much higher risk level than a government building that's unoccupied, you know, or a government building that's not occupied in the evenings or on the weekends. So based on the risk level will dictate how many resources we actually have going to those calls. So it's not always just one firetruck going to an incident. In fact, sometimes people will say, "Oh, my god, that must have been a big fire. There was, like, six trucks going to it." Yeah, it might have been a false alarm. The reality is, is those six trucks were required in the event that it was a real incident, they needed to set up. There are so many different tasks that need to take place in the initial minutes to be successful that those resources need to be there.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in this case, were there any delays from EMS or fire or ambulance to be able to access any points within the areas that were occupied with trucks?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
There were no substantial delays. We did get some complaints with regards to paramedics not being able to access, or a paramedic trying to get through a street, and it was taking a little longer, but we investigated every one of those complaints to look at it with regards to our response standards, to see whether or not they still fell within our response standards. And if they didn't, was it an acceptable risk, you know, was it reasonable. And we didn't have any high-level risks that we were concerned with, with regards to any response.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now I just want to ask about the relocation of the trucks as part of the negotiation between the protest group and the City of Ottawa. I want to take you to OTT30057. And is this a text message from your phone?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, it is.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it says, "Chris (protester)." Is that the name that you entered for that phone number?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And who's Chris protester?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It's Chris Barber.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so in green, this would be you speaking and ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- the grey would be Mr. Barber; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And if I can just take you to page 4 of those exchanges? So you say, "Are you continuing to try to move trucks today or has that effort stalled?" And if we just go up a little bit more, we'll see -- I just want to look at the date that was sent. If we go up, yeah, so it's on Tuesday, February 15. Okay. Thank you. We can go back down. "Are you continuing to try to move trucks today or has that effort stalled?" And he says, "We moved maybe 40 yesterday. I wore myself out yesterday with that. Rested up now and preparing to get at it again." And then you say, "Thanks, Chris." So we have heard that there were about 40 heavy trucks that were relocated as a result. Is that your understanding as well? Is that what Mr. Barber was telling you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I concur with him that that was approximate -- or my approximation as well at the time.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And there were additional passenger vehicles that were towed as well?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, because there were ---
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
There were people ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
--- trucks and cars and pickup - --
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
-- trucks. And to move the trucks, they had to move the smaller vehicles as well, and they were relocated, not necessarily all on Wellington, but they were relocated.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So this 40 number refers to the heavy trucks only; right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we know that shortly after this message, the effort to relocate trucks stopped or was ended. You also had discussions with Superintendent Drummond, who I understand was the OPS liaison to this relocation effort. Did he explain to you why there were no more trucks being relocated to Wellington at a certain point?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, he simply indicated that the police were no longer allowing trucks on Wellington.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And he didn't give you an explanation for why?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Those are all my questions for you, Mr. Ayotte. Thank you very much.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, Counsel. First up is the Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good morning -- good afternoon, Mr. Ayotte. It'll soon be good evening.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you. I am David Migicovsky. I'm Counsel for the Ottawa Police Service. I just want to get some clarification with respect to the relationship between By-law and Regulatory Services and the police. And you mentioned a Roger Chapman; is that the name?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, he's the Director of By-law Services; correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if you could please turn up OTT0359? And if we scroll down to the bottom of the chain, there is a draft. Yeah, so if we just stop there. Thank you very much. In which it indicates -- or perhaps you could just go up a little bit more, so we can just see. Yeah, it's from Peggy Staruch to Ghislain Lamothe. And you'll see that what has been sent is a -- I guess a draft release to Ottawa business partners that has been drafted and is being sent to you ultimately for review; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I believe I'm in the review process, yeah, up further up into the ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
--- exchange.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- and so you'll see, if we look at the second -- sorry, the sentence that begins, "The OPS will always be available to respond to any issue of safety you may encounter by dialing 911. If you are experiencing issues relat[ing] to COVID 19 and masking, please call City Bylaw at 311 first." Correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I see that that's what they were suggesting.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if you then could scroll up to the next email, just this is the date of Thursday the 27th; correct? So it's the day before the protesters started arriving. And so just above that, you'll see there's a response from a Michael Lalonde, I think, at 11:06 a.m. And so Mr. Lalonde says, "By-law [...] has one area of concern. The OPS will be available to respond..." I'm sorry, so it's the same email and he has highlighted the sentence that says, "If you are experiencing issues relating to Covid 19 and masking, please call City Bylaw at 311." Correct? And then you’ll see underneath, he writes his comments about -- I guess he has concerns about that phrase and he says: "Since this relates to protest demonstration, Covid 19 complaints are to be direct OPS for response. Responding to Covid complaints during a protest demonstration is a safety issue for our officers by being subject to violence. We have made our position clear over the year that Bylaw Services does not respond to protest demonstrations including the activities surrounding it. Can we change what is highlighted in yellow." And then if we scroll up above that, you’ll see there’s a request for a revised text. And then if you up to the -- continue scrolling up, please, and then you’ll see that somebody name Tania McCumber has said on January 27th: " Below is the email chain regarding the calls within the demonstration area. Roger advised myself that Kim made the police aware yesterday at a meeting and Roger will reiterate again tomorrow morning at his meeting with the police." And I take it you did reiterate that position?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I reiterated the position that we would not be putting Bylaw officers in dangerous situations that could affect their health or the safety of anyone around them.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that had been, I guess, the consistent position of Bylaw for about a year prior to that, it sounds like?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
As I indicated earlier, yeah, it was the position for all protests and demonstrations. It’s -- I want to say it’s always been that but it’s been that was for a long time, as far as I can remember it.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You mentioned that there were occasions where Bylaw went in with police in these QR teams. These are quick-response teams, correct.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so they would issue tickets for parking, noise bylaw complaints, and that would be in the demonstration zone, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And in fact, there were several hundred tickets issued by those quick-response teams for those type of complaints, were there not?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, that’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And we can also see, if you could be good enough, please, to turn to 10463, OTT. And if we could just look at the first page. Those are your notes, Mr. Ayotte; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Embarrassingly, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
They’re pretty legible. So if I could just ask ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
You caught me on a good day for these because some of my other notes are not that good.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If I could just ask to look at number 3 -- sorry, I wonder if we could just see the date of your notes.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
February 2nd.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
February 2nd, okay, perfect. And number 3: "The Market was in the red zone but that zone has been shrinking as a result of police demobilizing the demonstration." So you were able, then, to provide some enforcement -- bylaw enforcement in that area as well?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct. Kind of like what I was explaining earlier, the red zone would contract and expand based on how the protestors -- they would expand on the weekend and contract during the week because of the amount of additional that would come in on the weekends.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I understand that on the first weekend -- so that would be the weekend starting Friday, the 28th, 29th, 30th -- there were, is it fair to say, thousands of trucks in Ottawa?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I think our estimation was, you know, 500 to 1000. Like, it was difficult to tell because of all the small vehicles as well. If you included all of the small vehicles, yes, it would be over a 1000.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
My understand was, after the weekend -- after the first weekend, we’ve heard somewhere in the vicinity of 70 percent of those big trucks left; is that consistent with your understanding?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
The consistent number throughout the following weeks was around 400 to 500 that actually stayed behind, and those were big trucks. Those were the tractor trailers. That number would fluctuate as well because it would expand and contract, but mostly it stayed consistent because the trucks moved into the area and stayed there. They chained themselves together. They made themselves difficult to move and, as a result of that, they were there for the long haul.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So that would be about 400 or so, I think.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct, yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you’d agree with me -- I assume you were following some of this on social media while it was going on?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I have people send me social media links. I’m not the social media guru that others are but I was following some of it on social media, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with me that there was a lot of misinformation about what was going on, what the demonstrators were doing, what they might do?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I’m not sure that under -- that I can corroborate whether the information I was seeing on social media was misinformation or accurate information. I wasn’t -- I did report to my office every day, which is City Hall. I was exposed to the honking every day. I did go out for a walk and observe certain things. So unless you can give me some specific information with regards to what the misinformation might be, I’m sorry, I’d rather not speculate.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Fair enough. We’ll be hearing it from others ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- so that’s okay. We did not have, in Ottawa, 15,000 hotel rooms occupied by convoy members for 30-day periods, to your knowledge, did we?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I don’t think we have 15,000 hotel rooms in the City of Ottawa ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
--- but yes -- no, I don’t think that they were all occupied for the entire duration; that’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Because, basically, the core was those 400 trucks, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I wonder if you’d be good enough, please, to look at document OTT10103, and if we can start at the top, I guess. This is iMessages, I assume, between yourself and Beth Gooding?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And Beth Gooding is the Director of Public Safety? Have I got that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct, and she was the Incident Commander of the EOC.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And this on February 15th, so that’s the Tuesday?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the movement of trucks, as I understand, pursuant to the Mayor’s agreement, was on February 14th; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct. That’s when it started, yes, to move the trucks.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And on the 15th, as I understood your evidence, the police had stopped assisting in the moving of trucks and were encouraging the truckers to go home; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And on the 15th, then, you were discussing what happened in that agreement, what the effect of it was, correct, with Ms. Gooding? And so ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I was trying to obtain numbers of trucks that had moved ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
--- because that was the key question that I was being asked from the City Manager and the Mayor’s Office.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if you’d be good enough, please, to look at Beth Gooding’s message at 1:24 p.m.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you’ll see you’re asking her about the number that are still there and she says: "I think there’s about 337." (As read).
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Fifty-seven (57).
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Three-hundred-and-fifty- seven (357) but that Chief Sloly had been saying 400 so that there’s a delta of 43, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, so what I read from that is that the 400 was the original number and now the police were saying there’s 357, so what had moved is 43.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And then we see at 1:26, you tell her that what you’re interested in the numbers is the big trucks and whether they move. That’s what you want information?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you tell her at 1:56 -- if you could please scroll down, you tell her that according to the protesters, I think, they moved about 40 the previous day; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And she said that that basically aligns with what the NCRCC has said, correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And at -- you continue, then, to discuss how many and how it’s difficult to count them. And if you could please look at 4:19 p.m. Just scroll down a bit. Yeah, so at 4:19, Ms. Gooding says: "Also, confirming again that there was some weirdness yesterday. When trucks left spaces, other vehicles got into the empty places left as the hardcore protesters are jockeying for position."
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's what -- yeah, that's what she says.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the agreement, as I understand it, with the Mayor was that the truckers said that if vehicles moved they would not be replaced; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so that seems not to have occurred.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah. My understanding is, as I indicated earlier, that while they were moving some of the big trucks they had to move some of the smaller pickup trucks that were, you know, wedged in-between them or beside them, and that those were probably the ones jockeying for spots after the fact.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if we then look at 4:57 in that same chain, you indicate you're going to: "...report approximately 175 trucks remain south of Wellington and 120 north of Wellington..." Correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, I believe that's after I actually walked it and counted them.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And at -- if you could look at 4:25, please. If we just go up a bit. You're talking about, I guess Ms. Gooding is giving you the county, as best as they're able to, on the 15th, of the number of trucks remaining, correct, at the various locations?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so what we see is Metcalfe, 70 trucks; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, that's what she says.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so yesterday, we saw a picture from the Mayor's Office of Metcalfe and we saw no trucks on it. But I assume that we were only seeing a one block portion because there were about 70 trucks still on Metcalfe it looks like. Is that what you're understanding from Ms. Gooding?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, I don't know if this -- if these were the numbers that she was giving me before the movement or after. Like these -- I'm asking her for the numbers. So I don't know if we can scroll up a bit so I can just get the context of the conversation before that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
They're using the cameras to try and identify, you know, what trucks are where.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so you would agree with me that on the 15th there were trucks still on Metcalfe; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah. I actually walked it, and a good portion of Metcalfe was clear.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And there were a number of trucks still on Metcalfe, though; correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Perhaps south, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And -- those are all my questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Ayotte.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the convoy organisers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, sir. For the record, Brendan Miller. I am counsel to the Freedom Corp, which is an organisation representing the protesters that were in your city in January and February of 2022. So just first off, I want to talk to you sort of in your capacity as being the Director of Safety and that sort of thing, sort of overseeing that department. Can you agree with me that between January 27th and February 14th there were over 3,000 tickets issued for provincial and municipal infractions?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That sounds correct. I'd have to actually look at the numbers, but we did provide all of those documents through the disclosure process.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And were some of those tickets issued by the By-law Office?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Most of them were issued by the By-law Office.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I take it that during the issuing of those over 3,000 tickets none of your by-law officers were assaulted.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
There were some contentious times, and -- so I can't say that none of them were assaulted, not that I know of.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So you never had reported to you and no charges were laid against any protester issued a ticket with respect to physically assaulting a by-law officer?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, I just know that a couple of them got swarmed, but that they didn't get physically assaulted.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So 3,000 tickets is a lot. That's a lot of interactions with a lot of protesters. And not a single assaulting a peace officer charge was laid in relation to your by-law officers?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, the numbers, I understand, is that between January 27th and February 14th, there were a total of 31 arrests made, is that correct, of the protesters?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
You'd have to ask the police that. I don't capture those numbers.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. You don't keep those sort of numbers or you don't capture those sort of numbers?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I don't manage the police, I manage all other emergency services in the City of Ottawa.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. To your knowledge, is it not true, again you don't have to -- if you don't have the information please just advise. To your knowledge, is it not true that only 16 people of the protesters between that same time period, January 27th and February 14th, were charged?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I can't speak to that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now, dealing with some of the stuff with respect to the cooperation of the leaders of the protest, as well as dealing with the safety lanes and that sort of thing, is it not true that the protest leaders were actually concerned about maintaining the safety lanes, and raised that with you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
They did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they wanted to ensure that the lanes were open so that emergency vehicles could always get through?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the protest leaders cooperated with you and the City in maintaining those safety lanes; right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they maintained them?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
For the most part, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And when new trucks would even arrive, they even organised to talk with the, what they referred to as block captains. Did they relay that to you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. But when new vehicles were arrived, had arrived, to your knowledge you agree that they always organised to make sure that those safety lanes were open?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you did have, I believe, your fire chief even do an inspection of the Coventry Street or Coventry?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah. Just for clarity, "the" fire chief wouldn't have done the inspection, but one of his chief officers would have. So there are many different chief levels within the fire service.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And when that fire chief did the inspection he asked them not to have any open -- he did not, or -- like he asked them not to have any open firepits; isn't that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I can't speak to that. I don't ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I don't know the contents of that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. I understand that you attended a logistics meeting at City Hall on Sunday evening of February 13th to discuss the trucks' moves?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, that's the only time I ever met with the organisers of the protest.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is it not true that at that meeting the protesters explained who would -- who -- that two -- that two removed camps outside of the city had already been established outside of the city where they would go to?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
From my recollection, the discussion was around how were we going to move the trucks out of the residential areas, and that there was limited spots on Wellington Street. So I wasn't 100 percent sure we could move all 400 trucks onto Wellington. Actually, I knew we couldn't move all 400 trucks onto Wellington Street, and that their agreement, from as far as I was concerned meant that they had to make sure that those other vehicles left town and left the City of Ottawa.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
And they said yes, that they had secured ground or -- and that's farmers' properties outside of the city.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So that's what I'm trying to clarify because I'm just ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- trying to be fair to you because there's going to be evidence about that.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Okay.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So they told you that they had set up two camps in properties they were allowed to be at outside of the city and that they were looking to move there.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, we -- they told me that, but I was also aware of that through other intelligence reports as well.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And then the plan was that vehicles would -- other vehicles would go there and then there would be some other vehicles that would go to Wellington; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And the City agreed to that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. Now, if the protesters were able to move the vehicles on Tuesday and Wednesday, which is February 15th and 16th, as had been agreed, can you agree that the result would have been most if not all of the vehicles would have been cleared out of downtown except for Wellington?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I can’t agree with that only because I didn’t see a lot of protestor vehicles moved except for the ones we allowed on to Wellington; so there seemed to be some movement onto Wellington, but no movement out of the City as was agreed to. So if it would have been a good faith movement on both parts, then I could maybe agree to that, but I can’t today.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But isn’t it true, and the Commission has heard evidence, that the move on to Wellington eventually got blocked?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It got stopped by police, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So it got stopped by the police, so the deal didn’t go through because of the police?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so if the deal went through and it was followed, the only vehicles and trucks from the protestors would have been on Wellington?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I am not confident that would have happened.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. But there was no reneging on the deal on behalf of the protestors at the time and that’s the evidence the Commission’s heard today or to date; would you agree with that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
But the delta was, they didn’t control all the people in that block; they said they wanted to control all of them and they hoped that they would have all of their buy-in, but they didn’t. They had difficulty moving the 40 to Wellington Street because people didn’t want to move.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But the difficulty in moving individuals to Wellington Street after the agreement was announced, I put to you was only stopped because the police wouldn’t let them on to Wellington and because the police then also stopped them from leaving the streets they were parked on; isn’t that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, I can’t speak to that; you’ll have to ask Staff Sergeant Drummond about that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next it’s former Chief Sloly’s counsel.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner, we have no questions for Mr. Ayotte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next would be the Democracy Fund JCCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROB KITTREDGE
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Ayotte. May name is Rob Kittredge and I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms and we have five exciting minutes here together today, so I’m going to plough through a number of questions. Parking tickets serve as a deterrent to illegal parking; don’t they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
They do.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When people know that parking illegally will get them a ticket and a fine, that deters at least some people from parking illegally; doesn’t it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, of course.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’d like to understand a little more about how often Ottawa Parking enforcement people can ticket an illegally parked vehicle in the ordinary course of business. So let’s say just to pick a totally random hypothetical example, that I parked my car this morning in the middle of Wellington Street, obstructing traffic, and I left it there for two and a half weeks. Assuming that for some incomprehensible reason my car didn’t get towed, how many parking tickets could I possibly find on my windshield at the end of that period of time?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s a very good question and I don’t have that answer for you; I don’t know the minutia of the regulations. My background is the Fire Chief and now I’m managing all of this, but I don’t have that knowledge.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Could a parking ticket be issued daily to an illegally parked vehicle?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I would have to get that information for you.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would you assume that probably a parking issue could be issued daily?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it could because the parking infractions, the signs would say you can’t park between a certain period, and then once that time period lapsed the next day, the time period would start up again.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So it would be reasonable to say that at least one ticket per day could be ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That would be reasonable, yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Leaving aside the instruction from OPS to stop by-law enforcement without police instructions and accompaniment, it’s true that illegally parked vehicles weren’t ticketed anywhere near that frequently during the protests; were they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I believe I understood the question, but I’m going to kindly ask you to repeat it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to go a little slower; I’ll even give you an extra minute or two.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Deal. All right, I’m trying to plough through ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know, but it’s ---
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- five minutes worth of questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But it’s with the interpreters.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I get it; the time is tight. So tickets weren’t issued daily to illegally parked trucks during the protest; were they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If the City had ticketed illegally parked vehicles much more aggressively, don’t you think that mounting fines might have persuaded some drivers to move their vehicles?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I do not.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You don’t think any drivers would have moved if more tickets were issued?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I do not believe that the protestors were feared -- feared getting tickets or fines.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And not a single driver would have moved in the face of mounting tickets?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I can’t say that 100 per cent, but certainly in my opinion very few would have left.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You said on the 29th you were instructed by OPS not to ticket in the red zone without their okay and accompaniment; on the 28th approximately how many by-law or parking enforcement officers were working in the downtown area?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, I believe that stuffs in -- that information is in the disclosed material; I don’t have that, but it was in the, you know, 10, 15 officers generally work an area and we would have had that many out that day.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So if those officers were out they might have needed 10 or 15 police officers accompanying them to do their work in the red zone?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, but on the 28th that wasn’t -- like it would have been normal practice.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure, but going forward ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- if they needed police accompaniment that might have meant 15 officers?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It might have; I can’t speak to the police operation. They may feel that because of the threat, that they would require more than one officer and one by-law officer to attend those situations,
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. I understand that in 2019 the City of Ottawa issued about 350,000 parking tickets; does that sound about right to you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That sounds right.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And 250,000 in 2020 due to Covid, I guess, which breaks down to about 20,000 parking tickets per month or about 10,000 parking tickets every two weeks; doesn’t it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
You did the math; I’ll agree with your math; how’s that?
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Close’ish; under-estimated. But we’ve heard that only 1,700 parking tickets or so were issued in downtown during that period of time; right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Right.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, sorry, over 3,000 were issued.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Over 3,000; still that’s quite a bit less than the normal 10,000 or so?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah. Ottawa By-law & Parking Enforcement officers are trained in dispute resolution and conflict de-escalation; aren’t they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, they are.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And they received that training because in the ordinary course of business it’s not unusual for ticket recipients to behave in a less than civil manner; isn’t it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And on any given day, protest or no protest, it’s not unheard of for ticket recipients to get aggressive with enforcement officers; is it?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
True.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But no by-law or parking enforcement officers were attacked or injured by freedom movement protestors, were they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
As I indicated earlier, not that I’m aware of, except for the swarming.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And when talking to Commission counsel earlier, you discussed the difficulties that the City had obtaining towing services from its standing offer for towing contractors and others and the efforts made to procure towing services; did the City consider offering increased compensation to towing services to encourage them to provide services?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Not that I’m aware of.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Did the City consider buying or leasing heavy tow trucks?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
We were looking at all options; you still need to train the drivers and this was still being viewed as a specific time frame; right? By the time we bought a tow truck and we trained an appropriate driver, that would be one truck and we needed a lot more than one to execute the final plan.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. The City never used its two OC Transpo heavy towing rigs during that period of time; did they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It did not. Initially they considered but -- but they needed it for their daily operations. The bus system was still running and the buses were still breaking down and required towing, so -- and there were also from the Union, concerns about safety issues.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You mentioned that heavy towing operators were concerned about driver safety and that was a big reason why services could not be procured. Light towing operators apparently didn’t share those concerns though since the City’s light towing providers continued to tow vehicles in emergency lanes; didn’t they?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And there were no incidents of assaults, violence or injuries to towing operators during the protest, were there?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Not that I’m aware of.
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much; I’ve gone about a minute and 20 seconds over, but those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, it’s the Government of Canada.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANDREW GIBBS
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Mr. Ayotte, my name is Andrew Gibbs and I’m counsel for the Government of Canada.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Bonjour.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Bonjour. I have about four documents and above five minutes, so if this seems rushed, it is. The first document I would ask to call up is OTT00010005. And while it’s coming up, this is the application record from the City of Ottawa with respect to the injunction on February 13th/14th. Do you recognize this document?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I do.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you provided an Affidavit in support of this application?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I did.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in your Affidavit you detail that the demonstrators were breaching City bylaws?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I did, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And that it was stretching City resources; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
You also state in the affidavit -- I believe it's at paragraph 10, that you had visited various sites, observed personally and were advised by operational staff, both bylaw and regulatory services and fire services to gather the information for the purposes of the affidavit; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you swore this affidavit on February 13? Sorry, if we could maybe go to it? It should be on about page 4, I believe.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I thought it was the 11th, but I don't know.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Down two more pages. And two more, to the actual affidavit starts. Right here. And it's sworn February 13th, 2022.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Okay.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Do you see that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do, thank you.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And do you adopt the information in this affidavit as true?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Now, at paragraph -- paragraph 10 of the affidavit, you state that you're monitoring, using CCTV cameras and you were doing this out of concern for public safety and the ability of first responders and other City services to provide emergency and other services to downtown and across the City. Do you see that in paragraph 10?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And so if we turn to -- would you -- based on the information that’s in this affidavit, would you agree that the situation in downtown Ottawa at that time was fluid?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Very fluid, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And volatile?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And unpredictable?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
If you turn to page 37, please, this is a series of photographs of Exhibit A. Unfortunately, it's on its side. This is one of the photographs taken from the CCTV cameras; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in the bottom left-hand corner, it states the location?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, Wellington -- Metcalfe and Wellington.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Metcalfe and Wellington. And in the top left-hand corner, the date?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct, February 5th.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
February 5th. And it's, I believe, 2:00 p.m.?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
What is the white bar that we see in the middle of the photograph?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s a boom or a it's a crane.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
That’s a large crane. Is it an industrial crane?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s an industrial crane, yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And are all those trucks in the background, is that the lineup of trucks on Wellington?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That’s correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And did you know what was in those trucks?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Now, if we go to page 2, I'll just move off of this document, but I would like to go to page 2 where the list of exhibits are included, and I would commend this to the Commission, this entire affidavit with the exhibits. There are a series of photographs of fuel depots at Coventry Road, the RCGT park. You'll see Exhibit D, photographs of fires and fuel stockpiles at Confederation Park; Exhibit E, the bylaw call logs and fire complaints dated February 4th to 12th, 2022; Exhibit F, CCTV images of fireworks on February 5th, 2022; and Exhibit G and so forth are the details with respect to call logs. Is that where the various complaints are registered for open fires ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
-- and parking violations?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. So in the interests of time, I would now like to move to three quick documents. If we can bring up OTT00004061? You had mentioned earlier that your officers were directed not to ticket in the red zone; is that correct?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And you'd mentioned that that really came into play on February 4th?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, the 29th of January.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
The 29th of January? Okay. This email is from February 4th. Roger Chapman, he reports to you?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, he does.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And he states specifically, if you look at the second paragraph: "First and foremost, our top priority and responsibility is ensuring the safety of staff. As you have no doubt gathered, this is a potentially volatile situation and there is a significant difference between ticketing illegally parked vehicles and ticketing a person for a violation, where the latter presents a much greater risk of confrontation." Do you see that?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And do you agree with those statements?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in response to the questions you just received from my friend, Mr. Miller, with respect to the lack of tickets or the number of tickets and very little charges laid for assault, would you agree that where the directions to the officers were to ticket vehicles and not people, that is one possible explanation for that discrepancy?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Skipping right to the bottom: "Again, Officer safety is our first priority and therefore, we will not be enforcing other by-law violations in the demonstration zone at this time." Demonstration zone, that’s the red zone?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Next document, OTT00006781, please. These are listed as updates, EOCCG Update 15 from yourself?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Do you recognize this document?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And would you agree that the purpose of this document was to provide accurate and timely information to your City colleagues?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, to my City leadership team.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
To your City leadership team. Thank you. The date of this email is Friday, February 11th, 2022, at 7:53 p.m.?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And in the third paragraph, we see: "Evidence of external influence persists. The Ottawa Hospital has received some disturbing calls, mostly from the United States, which have been reported to police." PIMR -- what does that stand for?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Public Information and Media Relations.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. "--- has paused public comments on the City of Ottawa's corporate Facebook and Instagram accounts for the duration of the City's state of emergency due to an apparent coordinated effort to spam the City's feed with hateful or toxic comments including racist comments or misinformation and rumours." Is that accurate information?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, it is.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Last, very quickly, Document OTT00008754. This is the operational update 24 on February 22nd. Can we have that document please? It's 8740. And it references on the third paragraph -- this is again from you. Do you recognize this?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. "CHEO received a false bomb threat yesterday evening." Can you remind the Commissioner what CHEO stands for?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
It's the Children's Hospital here in Ottawa.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
So the Children's Hospital received a bomb threat. "While false calls to 9-1-1 have been reduced, there are indications that outside interference persists." Is that correct? There was a bomb threat to the Children's Hospital on February 22nd?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, there was.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Now, Mr. Ayotte, do you have any evidence that that bomb threat was connected to the convoy?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
But would you agree that that was part of the challenge in these events?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct. We received a tremendous amount of increased 9-1-1 calls that were also false during this time, higher than normal amounts of 9-1-1 calls, so we suspected that it was related.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
And the mayor had testified earlier today to what he referred to as "Whack-a-Mole". Is it not correct and fair to say that you couldn't tell what was coming next?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
I think for the most part, yeah. We didn’t know where they were going to go. We were trying to be strategic, but it was a difficult time.
Andrew Gibbs, Counsel (GC)
Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Coalition.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We have no questions, thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCDL and CLA.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN McKEOWN
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Good afternoon or almost good evening, Mr. Ayotte. My name is Colleen McKeown and I'm counsel to the Criminal Lawyers' Association and the Canadian Council for Criminal Defence Lawyers. These are two organizations comprised of criminal defence lawyers. Many of the questions I have for you have already been canvassed, so I've been trying to tailor them as we've gone along. If I could just pick up on some questioning you got earlier about sort of the number of tickets overall, over the course of a year, my friend said perhaps it was 300,000 or 250,000, and you said you didn’t have the numbers in front of you, but you know, that was sort of about right; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And he gave you an estimate that that could mean something like 20,000 tickets being issued monthly, is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And my understanding, not having seen these figures myself, well, this would be for across the whole city ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
--- is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
But is it still your view then that the 3,000 tickets that were issued over the course of the demonstration, in the demonstration zone or related to the demonstration, that this would be a -- sort of a smaller fraction of tickets that By-law Services would have had the capacity to issue?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, but there were a lot more infractions in that zone that could have been ticketed.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Right. So there were many more infractions and this is a smaller number than the tickets that might have been issued but for the safety concerns you've already described.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And I understand that By- law and Regulatory Services received an approval for an increase to the set fines for various By-law infractions on February 8th; does that sound right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And I know you've already adopted the contents of the affidavit you swore as part of the City's injunction application in the course of questioning by another Counsel, so I'll just draw your attention that you said in that affidavit that you didn't think that these increased fines had any impact on the ongoing By-law violations; is that right?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That's correct.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And that was the affidavit you swore on February 14th, and I take it that your opinion didn't change after you swore the affidavit, that there wasn't some change after that fact?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
My opinion hasn't changed, and the affidavit was sworn on February 13th.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Right. And, yes, and after February 13th, there wasn't -- those changes from February 8th, you didn't change your opinion on whether they had an impact?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, my opinion remains the same.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now to the City of Ottawa.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ALYSSA TOMKINS
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you, Commissioner. Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel for the City of Ottawa. Mr. Ayotte, I just have a few questions today. You had mentioned in your evidence that there was a document that reflected the direction to By-law or to the EOC -- through the EOC on January 29th. I'm just going to take you to that for the record.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
So if we could turn up document OTT00001270. And if we could just scroll -- next page, please. Under number three, under section updates, there's a comment from a J. Gravelle. Who's J. Gravelle; do you know?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
J. Gravelle is one of our commanders in the incident management system. So he used to work for By-law Services and now he works for Roads.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. And it says here, "(BLRS) were experiencing issues; a perimeter/red zone has been established; if BLRS are required to enter that zone, as directed by the NCRCC, they will be provided Police escort." And then we have a comment from K. Cochrane. Can you remind the Commissioner who is K. Cochrane?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Kelly Cochrane. She is part of our EOC staff.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
And she states, "Police advising BLRS to withdraw services if they are encountering concerns; will provide escorts on an as-needed basis." Is this the direction to which you were referring earlier?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, correct.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you. There was a couple incidents discussed last week in the evidence involving the Chateau Laurier and the Rideau Centre, and I was just hoping you could provide the Commissioner with additional information on that. So starting with the Chateau Laurier, are you familiar with the concern that was raised?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, it was raised directly to me and we had it investigated.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Can you explain to the Commissioner what happened and what the City's follow-up was?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Certainly. Basically, there was an alarm for a water leak, or a sprinkler head had been knocked off, and so it was an alarm call for the fire service. We -- the fire service responded with four different trucks from different directions from different fire stations, which is normal from a deployment of our resources' perspective. We don't respond with just one truck. We respond with multiple, especially for a high-risk setting like a hotel. On arrival, one of the trucks, you know, got close enough but didn't get very close and that's what was observed by the hotel. And they thought, oh my god, if there's an emergency, you know, they can't get in here. The reality is, there was three other trucks responding. People were -- the responders were already in the hotel dealing with the incident. There was no delay in the response. So, you know, this was a heightened -- a time where people were very aware of all kinds of different issues, and it was being raised through us through the BIAs and Hotel Association that these types of concerns needed to be addressed because of public safety, their liability insurance, et cetera. So while I understand their fear, the risk of this call was very low, and we had preplanned that facility daily, and we've had conversations with the manager since. So really, from a risk perspective, it was a relatively low-risk event, but it did highlight that, you know, if there was a fire, you know, we may not get all four trucks there immediately and there would be some need for movement of the protest vehicles. So while it was an incident that was looked at, it wasn't deemed as high risk as it was being first explained to us.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you, Mr. Ayotte. And in relation to the Rideau Centre incident, it might be helpful if we bring up some -- the email correspondence. If someone could turn up document OTT00008284? So this is your -- an email exchange between you and Councillor Fleury. Do you recall this exchange?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, I do.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
And we had seen your response, or the draft response prepared last week, but if we could scroll down and you could just explain the response to the Commissioner.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes, can you just go up a bit, so I can see where that's from, from Jennifer Therkelsen. Okay. Now you can go back down. So in this particular case, you know, it's a private property, so they could request that By-law come and remove the illegal vehicles. It was a truck, a construction type truck that had a legal diesel container in it. So the fear of it -- you know, as Councillor Fleury indicated last week, you know, we should have evacuated the Rideau Centre. Well, that's not accurate because the risk was still very low. So in this particular case, the police attended initially, looked at the truck, spoke to the owner, told him he'd have to move it or he'd be getting a ticket. By-law eventually went out and gave them a ticket. Rideau Centre wanted it removed. It was one of those times when getting a tow for a small vehicle was more difficult, more challenging for us. And as a result of that, it took some time for us to secure the tow vehicle to come and actually remove it from the Rideau Centre. And when it finally -- when the tow truck was finally on route, the owner moved it himself. So the Rideau Centre was frustrated that it took, you know, a day-and-a-half to actually deal with this issue. But again, when we're dealing with the whole protest, we're looking at risk and we're looking at risk-based responses as well. So, yes, there are -- you know, the Councillor was concerned about the amount of layers with regards to us having to get the police involved, and the police coming back, and then police saying they can't escort By-law because they don't have the resources. And I could understand that frustration, and I could understand the Rideau Centre's frustration. They have valid concerns. From a risk perspective, this was also a very low-risk incident.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you, Mr. Ayotte. The last thing I was hoping you could assist the Commissioner with is the movement of trucks subsequent to the mayor's deal. You mentioned during your evidence that you went for a walk and observed the movement. If you could just explain to the Commissioner what you observed on your walk on the various streets?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, so -- yes, certainly. I went down to Wellington just to see, you know, how much trucks had been moved, and I noticed that they hadn't just been moved, but they'd been placed in a row where they can park a lot more of the trucks. And I think that they were doing that to try and get as much -- as many of the trucks on Wellington as possible. And so there was still quite a bit of room from, you know, Wellington from, let's say, Kent Street right down to West JAM with regards to, you know, the ability to park more trucks. Metcalf was cleared for the most part. Again, there may have been a few stragglers here and there, you know, south of Laurier, but Kent was still packed. So when Councillor McKenney was walking down Kent Street, she was right. There was no movement of any trucks on Kent Street. In fact, Kent didn't clear out until the police started their action to actually with the public order teams to move out, and then the trucks moved out quite quickly. And, but, yeah, so my walk was to just -- I’d try and identify, has any progress been made; is there still room; and are the protestors actually moving out as well or are they just trying to move everything to Wellington Street? And it was my perception, I guess, that I didn’t see a lot of trucks leaving town. I just saw a lot trying to get on Wellington St. And again, I can’t speak for Officer Drummond and the reasons for stopping it but I suspect that it might have something to do with that as well and the negotiation and the ability of both sides to be able to -- you know, the give and take factor, so.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Ayotte.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Ayotte. I just want to make sure I understood what you said about the fire issue with the Chateau Laurier. And you said they dispatched four fire trucks?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That would be the appropriate number of trucks, or was that more trucks than what the appropriate response is?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
That is our deployment for an alarm call.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
So for -- in this particular case it was an alarm call, general alarm.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So, just so I understand, so when you say it wasn’t a high risk, it’s because it was broken fire plug, if you like, or ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Yeah, sprinkler.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sprinkler. But if there had been a real fire, that would be a real problem having not all of the trucks that were dispatched and, presumably, there would be more trucks dispatched if it were a real fire.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Correct. How it unfolds is, depending on the information that the 911 -- or that the dispatch centre, the Ottawa Fire Dispatch Centre, receives, you know, if it’s just a general alarm, then we proceed with our staffing for a general alarm, and that’s enough to get things started. And then if it is fire, other rigs would be coming in and they would continue come in. So that’s the general-alarm assignment. Having -- if it was a fire, if the information came in that we actually have in fire in one of the rooms, there would have been several more vehicles responding because it’s a high risk. We would have had 25 firefighters, in total, responding, so you’re looking at eight or nine rigs responding.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I guess all I’m trying to understand is the inability of some rigs to get there would have been a bigger problem if there had been a real fire. Because I think what I’m trying to understand is whether when you said it wasn’t serious, it’s because it wasn’t a real fire but access would have been limited if there had been a real fire.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Of course, yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that would have been a big problem.
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
And that was the concern of the Chateau Laurier but they were -- they were portraying as, “Oh, my God, they couldn’t get in at all.” Well, that was one of the four trucks. The other three ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you’re not saying it wasn’t a problem?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No, I’m saying it’s a problem. It was a problem everywhere with the congestion. Ideally, there’s a reason why we have large roads, so that we can get the trucks set up.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the same thing for Kent Street. If there’d been, as we saw, I think, yesterday, apartment buildings on Kent Street that were inaccessible ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- because Kent was blocked, that would have been a serious problem if there’d been a serious fire?
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
No doubt. And we plan for those but, again, we were lucky there were no serious fires.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I thank you for coming. There’s just one more. You may some re-examination. No, there is no re-examination so we’re done for the day and we want to thank you for coming ---
Kim Ayotte, General Manager (Ott)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and testifying today. And thank you all for ending it a little earlier than I thought, and we are back tomorrow at 9:30.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is adjourned. La Commission est ajournée.
Upon adjourning at 5:32 p.m. Ottawa, Ontario