Alan Honner
Alan Honner spoke 473 times across 13 days of testimony.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Commissioner, and good morning everyone. My name is Alan Honner, and I am the litigation Director for The Democracy Fund. The Democracy Fund is a registered charity and a civil liberties organisation. As you've heard, we're sharing standing with the JCCF and with Citizens for Freedom. Our interest in this Inquiry arises from our legal work. In February of 2022, we sent lawyers to Ottawa and to Windsor to provide demonstrators with legal information about their rights when protesting, as well as the limitations of those rights. Around the same time, we were granted intervenor status as a friend of the Court, at the Superior Court of Justice in Windsor over the Ambassador Bridge injunction proceeding. Currently, we represent dozens of persons who have been criminally charged in relation to the protests at Ottawa, Windsor, and Coutts, and we represent thousands of others who have been charged under the Quarantine Act, or provincial offences related to the pandemic. We've also brought applications between -- before superior courts and the Federal Court of Canada challenging laws related to the pandemic. Our objective is to participate in the fact- finding process of this Inquiry, particularly as it relates to uncovering the truth about why the Federal Government invoked a Public Order Emergency and how they used their powers. From our perspective, the Government did not meet the requisite legal grounds to invoke a Public Order Emergency for the same reasons you heard from Counsel for the Freedom Corp. It follows that the extraordinary measures the government invoked were therefore inappropriate and indeed outside their jurisdiction. Our questions and our submissions will focus on these central issues. Thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon. Can you hear me? I'm sorry, can you hear me?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mayor Sloly [sic]. My name's Alan Honner. I'm appearing remotely today. I'm a lawyer with the Democracy Fund.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, pardon me.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, I apologise, Mayor Watson.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You told us today that Toronto mayor, John Tory, gave you some phone numbers for some tow trucks?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you passed those on to Steve Kanellakos and the City Staff?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And did you ever follow up with anyone after sharing those phone numbers?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you recall when you gave those phone numbers to Steve Kanellakos and City Staff?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Let me interrupt you. I'm just asking you if you recall when you shared those phone numbers. What is the date? Do you know?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And how many days was that before the invocation of the Emergency Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So you didn't follow up, and you don't know how many days passed between those messages being passed on and the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you don't have the dates? You don't know?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You can't tell us now? Mayor - --
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's fine. I'll move on, Mayor. Mayor, you did not speak to Premier Ford or to Sylvia Jones about the tow trucks?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You never spoke to Premier Ford or Sylvia Jones about tow trucks; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You had two telephone calls with Premier Ford?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mayor Watson, do you know -- you would agree with me that one of the biggest issues for the City was the lack of ability to move the trucks?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
One of the issue for the City was the lack of the ability to move these trucks?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And trucks, either they had to be towed or they had to be moved by somebody, with keys; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Go ahead.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you know if financial incentives were offered to reluctant two truck drivers?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If those incentives were to be made, who would make them, the City or the police?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm going to just switch topics, Mayor. I understand that someone made a death threat against you, and I'm sorry to hear that. The person was arrested.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That is fine. Thank you, Commissioner. In that case, Mayor Watson, let me just ask you, you told us earlier today where evidence came out that these protestors, they were nasty, they were hateful, and they were vulgar; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you said that you saw -- or you said that they had ripped masks off of people?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you actually see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I think you also said that certain people were attacked; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, I didn’t say that you were attacked, but you said that these protestors were attacking people. Did you not say that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you're not aware of any incidents of physical violence from the protestors?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
According to your knowledge, you don’t know of any?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Of any physical attacks.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening everyone. I just have a -- I’m getting a message here that I cannot start my video because the host has stopped it. Mr. Commissioner, if it’s fine by you, I will ask my questions without any video.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I am prepared to proceed on that basis.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening, sir, my name is Alan Honner and I’m a lawyer from the Democracy Fund. I only have five minutes, but most of my questions have been answered. Can somebody please pull up OPP00000789. Sir, do you recall this email dated February 22nd, 2022? This is an email from you to Deputy Cox.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir, is it fair to say that in your view policing should be apolitical; it should be objective and it should view events in their context?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In this letter you say that law enforcement is at a critical stage in terms of its ethics, its operational independence and its decision-making; right at the top, sir; do you agree with me?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If we can scroll down to the second last paragraph of the second page. I’m going to read -- I’m going to read something to you but before I do that, can you just confirm for me that it’s fair to say that one of your concerns here, is that the public discourse has become sensationalized and it’s become inaccurate?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Your concerns aren't limited to this protest, but they do apply to this protest; is that fair?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm just going to read you one paragraph here and then I'm going to ask you the question which I really want to -- which is what I really want to explore -- and I'm almost finished here. But the second-last paragraph of the second page: "But now the public discourse is dominated by political figures and the media, and the commentary is providing a very different picture from what law enforcement collectively gathered. It is painting a different picture. It speaks to extremism. It offers parallels to terrorism. It speaks of sedition." This is a reference to what is going on in Ottawa; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you, sir. And here is my question to you. In your view, were politicians and the media responsible for a certain amount of disinformation and misinformation with respect to these protests?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You found it to be problematic, and the media was part of the problem; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. And just one last question for you when you speak of media there. And when I read to you from your letter, you said the public discourse is dominated by the media, you're speaking about the mainstream media; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, it's your letter ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- so you can tell me what you meant.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you, sir. I believe I'm out of time, so thank you for your answers to my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Five zeroes.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Superintendent. Good morning, Superintendent. I am Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer for the Democracy Fund.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Earlier today counsel for Canada asked you about towing guidelines from the OPP Commissioner and you couldn't comment on those. If you can't comment on this question, it's fine. But are you aware that on February 13th, 2022, before the declaration of the Public Order Emergency, the OPP had confirmed that seven towing companies were willing to provide services, and a total of 34 heavy duty trucks were available to the OPP in connection with this protest in Ottawa?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. I'll ask that question to another witness later on. Can we pull up OPP.IR.0000001? This is the OPP institutional report, and can we just go to page 36? Just to put this in context, what we're looking at here is the OPP role in the police response to the Ottawa blockade. And do you see that chart there -- just maybe scroll down a little bit. So we have a chart here, it's called “OPP Frontline Officers Provided to Ottawa Police Service[s]”.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So do you notice that -- well, first of all, let me ask you, do these numbers seem accurate to you? Do they accurately reflect the frontline officers provided to the OPS on the dates listed?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah, understood, and thank you for clarifying that. What I notice when I look at this chart is that the frontline officers increase significantly on February 16th, and then again on February the 18th. And obviously, you would agree with that, it's in the chart.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And now, if we could go back just a page 35. And you know, perhaps, Superintendent, I don't need to go back to page 35. Would you agree with me that one of the reasons these officers were able to be deployed to Ottawa at that time was because resources were freed up from Windsor?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Can we just scroll down to where it says February 15th? Pardon me, so it says here: “Ottawa Police Service[s], OPP and RCMP planning sections were physically integrated at the RCMP...” And then later on in the next paragraph: “Following the reopening of the Ambassador Bridge, 400 additional OPP members were rapidly deployed from across the province.” So some of those went to Ottawa and some went elsewhere I suppose?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I'm almost out of time here, but would you agree with me that the reason for the redeployment of these frontline officers two insert was not related to the emergencies act, and that it would have happened anyway?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, absolutely. Would you agree with me at the deployment of these frontline officers to Ottawa, and the increase in numbers on the 16th and on the 18th was not directly related to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, it is something that would have happened in any event?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that was the operational plan of February 13th, 2022; correct?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Was it called the Integrated Mobilization Operational Plan?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But in any event, that plan was in place prior to the invocation the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s fine. I suspect we'll hear that from Chief Superintendent Pardy today. Thank you very much, sir, those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, sir.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mr. Commissioner, the ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, Mr. Commissioner, can you hear me better now?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Counsel for the Government of Canada just brought up a document and showed it to the witness, and it was about tow trucks. It’s against the rules, but I’m wondering if you would grant me leave to show this document -- this witness a single document which we haven’t provided notice for, but which may assist him and which may assist the Commission in understanding how many tow trucks may have been available?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, it is.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, I am.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And for what it’s worth, Commissioner, I was going to ask for leave to introduce probably the very same document.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. The document is OPP00001585. Can we just go down to the third page, the top of the third page, please? Sir, here you can see an email, and can you just actually scroll up a little bit so we can see who the email is from? So, this is an email from Rose DiMarco. Do you know her?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it looks like this email is being sent to somebody at the Solicitor General’s office as well as the OPP Commissioner?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if we just scroll down a little bit, she says there are a total of 64 heavy tow companies in the Province of Ontario. Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I think this is what you were referring to before. She says, “Companies who would provide service: 7 with 34 total heavy tow units.”
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if we just look down two lines, she says, “10 companies waiting for callback from the 57 total.”
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Now, the document that we just saw from the Government of Canada was, I believe, dated February 17th, 2022. So, that’s some four days after this document.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it looks like, perhaps, in that time, the number of tow companies who were willing to provide trucks, or the number of trucks that they can provide decreases.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it could be the case, could it not, that the invocation of the Emergencies Act, which happened in between these two events, actually caused tow truck drivers or tow truck companies to become more reluctant to provide their services, or to put conditions on their services such as indemnification for damages?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, it was an issue on February the 9th, as you say, and it was still an issue on February the 13th, but there were some trucks there.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
There were some 34 trucks. Can you think of anything material that changed between the 13th and the 17th, other than the invocation of the Emergencies Act, which would cause fewer companies to agree to the OPP using their trucks or providing services to the OPP?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much. Let me change topics here for just a moment. We heard from your OPP colleague, Superintendent Patrick Morris not long ago that he thought some of what the media was reporting was problematic. Did you hear that evidence?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Are you aware that he testified that he read accounts of, for example, Russia being involved in the protests, and he found that to be problematic?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In your evidence today, you adopted a will say, and in that will say, you stated the media was not portraying what was on the ground. Can you tell us what your concerns were?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
How would that -- sorry, go ahead.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you didn’t think that was being accurately conveyed by the media?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
What about something like what Patrick Morris testified to, that the protestors were being portrayed as extremists, and he found that to be problematic? Did you find that to be problematic as well?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much, sir. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, good evening, Commissioner Carrique. My name is Alan Honner, and I am a lawyer for the Democracy Fund.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, pardon me. For the Democracy Fund.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, as regards the Ambassador Bridge blockade, I understand that the Windsor Police Service were the police of jurisdiction, but the OPP took the lead in coordinating enforcement.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you told us that part of the reason for that was public trust, but wasn't another reason that the Windsor Police Service were not experienced with large protests?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And this protest at the Ambassador Bridge, it was obviously -- it was a large protest.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It was a large protest?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I just want to ask you some questions about how the OPP and their partners managed to clear that process -- that protest. And so I understand from your evidence earlier today that the injunction, while it was helpful, it wasn't effective in isolation.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
What was really effective was the Operational Plan of February the 12th; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And they were able to successfully disperse the blockade at the bridge on February the 12th. Does that sound right to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So can we pull up OTT0000689?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, OTT00006819.0001. Oh, you know, I apologise. It's OPP00001554. Sir, if you see this document, it's an email from Commissioner Lucki to you, sorry, from you to Lucki, and you say ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- and you say here on February the 12th that the OPP, the RCMP, the London Police and "POUs cleared the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge." So I'm just talking about at the Ambassador Bridge, not in the city.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that happened on the 13th.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, thank you. And then, in the early morning of the 14th, the Ambassador Bridge opened to traffic. Is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And obviously that was before the invocation of the Emergencies Act.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The next day, on February the 15th, the bridge was fully operational.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. We'll confirm that with Dana Earley. Earlier today, my friend from the City of Windsor brought you to a document, it was a Traffic Plan, and it was OPP00000011. Did you have a chance to review that plan before coming here today?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So I'm going to suggest to you that if you did look at that plan you would see that the powers which are listed in that plan to control traffic deal with federal legislation, such as the Criminal Code, and Provincial legislation, but they don't make any reference to the Emergencies Act, and it's for the obvious point that the plan was created on February the 13th, 2022.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I understand that there were police officers for -- in Windsor for quite a while after the bridge was cleared, but they wouldn't be required to be there to control traffic.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's fine, thank you. Earlier today, you told us a little bit about the economic impacts of the blockade of the Ambassador Bridge, and I think you said it was $700 million per day?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's not your specialty. That's just something that you were told.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Understood. You can't tell us, then, whether that financial impact by mitigated by traffic being diverted to the Detroit/Windsor Tunnel or to the Blue Water Bridge?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Earlier today, when you were telling us about the Blue Water Bridge, you said that the blockade wasn't actually at the Blue Water Bridge, but it was some 30 to 40 kilometres away.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do I understand correctly that the OPP were able to clear that blockade by February the 14th?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in any event, when you cleared that blockade, what was very useful was the PLT teams and the risks caused to the protestors by the EMPCA.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
EM -- thank you. One last question, just about Cornwall, because that came up in your evidence today too, and you said that there was a point of entry in Cornwall which was blocked on February the 12th, and that there were significant concerns there. Among other things, you said it jurisdictional and complex. You said there were concerns of violence. I was wondering, can you tell us, was there a lot of farm equipment at that protest?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And when you talked about the Blue Water Bridge protest -- I know it wasn’t at the Blue Water Bridge -- but I'm referring it to that -- in that way, the 402 protest -- the provincial emergency powers were effective because that was farm equipment. Was it also effective at Cornwall?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In fact, I think it cleared by the same day, by February the 12th?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Superintendent.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer with the Democracy Fund and we share standing with the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom. Superintendent Earley, since this inquiry started, we've heard evidence about the importance of police independence and about how politicians should not interfere with that independence. You will agree with me that police autonomy is very important?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we pull up SSM.CAN.NSC.00002845? And, Superintendent, you will not have seen this document before, but it's a read out of a conversation between the Prime Minister and the Premier of Ontario on February 10th. And I just want to take you to parts of that document and then ask you a question about it. So can we scroll down just a little bit? A little bit more. So if we look at this document now, the Premier and the Prime Minister are saying hello. And in the first big paragraph, Premier Ford says, "The bigger one for us and the country is the ambassador bridge and the state ground there. What I think is we gotta stop the spread of these protests..." And he goes on to say that the Attorney General is looking at legal ways to give he police more tools. Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And in the next paragraph, if we can just scroll down a little bit, the Prime Minister says, "First of all, they're not a legal protest. They're occupying a municipal street and are not legally parked. You shouldn't need more tools -- legal tools -- they are barricading the [Ontario] economy..." And then later in that paragraph he says, "We[...] got to respond quickly..." And if I can take you to the next page, about halfway through, just from what you're seeing on the screen, the third paragraph from the bottom, the Prime Minister asks, "has Windsor asked [...] anything of the OPP? Have they made a formal request..." And if you look at the Premier’s response, he says: “they’ve put that request in through the solicitor general. I spoke to the Mayor and that was the plan.” You see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we go to the top of the third page? And so we see the Prime Minister is asking “what are the next steps?” And Premier Ford says: “they’ll act, but without directing them, it’s hard to describe their game plan. They’ll have a plan unlike Ottawa [where] they didn’t have a plan. I’ll get briefed tomorrow from the solicitor general and we’ll keep you updated. This is critical, I hear you. I’ll be up their ass with a wire brush.” Now, Superintendent, the question I wanted to put to you is, and I just want to clear, you did not experience any political interference from anyone when you were carrying out your duties as the Critical Incident Commander?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if anyone else in the OPS -- sorry, the OPP, the WPS, or any other police force who experienced inappropriate political pressure?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. I’d like to just switch gears for a moment here. You told us earlier today about a conversation, telephone conversation you had with, I believe it was Deputy Commissioners Harkins and DiMarco, and that was on February the 10th. And you told us today that they told you that Windsor was your priority and that it was a priority?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When I read your witness statement, I saw you said that, you described it as a priority, but you also described it in a different way. I won’t take you there, but what you say in that statement is that they told you that Windsor was the priority. Does that sound right to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And was it the priority, as opposed to a priority?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you would agree with me that it was a very important priority, ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- regardless of whether it was the most important?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And given the economic impact of the Ambassador Bridge, it was possibly not just one of the most important priorities for Ontario, but also for the country?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But we saw from the conversation between Doug Ford and Prime Minister Trudeau that at least for Doug Ford, it appears that Windsor is the priority?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, but you’ve seen the document. That’s what it looks like when he says “for us”. I’ll just remind you of the language here. He says: “The bigger one for us and the country is the ambassador bridge…”
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Fair enough. Superintendent Earley, you can tell me though, to the credit of you and your team, that you managed to get this blockade at the Ambassador Bridge cleared within two days of your appointment as CIC?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you would agree with me then that you and your team managed to resolve one of the most urgent priorities in the country without the benefit of the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Earlier today, you spoke about swearing in RCMP officers.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I think your evidence was that the POU officers did not need to be sworn in because they were enforcing the Criminal Code, but frontline officers would be enforcing municipal laws and provincial laws?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Possibly. And so you sort of creatively solved this problem by pairing them up with OPP officers?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And Windsor Police.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I just don’t understand this. I’m just wondering if you can explain it a little bit better. What additional power would that confer on the RCMP or what benefit would that confer to pair them up like that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. I mean, would this allow the RCMP, for example, to enforce provincial laws?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It would. Thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And we heard today that you established an exclusion zone along Huron Church Road, and I believe we heard yesterday that exclusion zone was north of Tecumseh to the Ambassador Bridge. Does that sound right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that’s the distance of about one kilometre?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And when you gave us evidence today, you said you relied upon the Criminal Code to establish that exclusion zone?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you agree that you could have also relied upon the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act to establish that exclusion zone?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. My friend from the Government of Canada asked you questions today about threats that were present in Windsor. You told us today that you’ve read the Hendon Reports, ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- insofar as they concerned the municipalities under your care.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you would agree with me that in Windsor, there was no extremist rhetoric?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But if it was in the Hendon Reports, you would agree with it?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well it’s OPP00001688. I won’t bring it up. Let me just move on. Can we pull up OPP00003038? Can you tell us who Karen Johnson was or is?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m just asking while we’re waiting for the document.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well we have an email here, and when it comes up, I suspect it will show an email from Karen Johnson to a number of people, including you and Commissioner Carrique?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we just scroll down a little bit, please? A little bit further. Scroll up. Okay. This is not the document I’m looking for. Let me ask you a question though.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would you agree with me that there were a total of 44 arrests in Windsor during this enforcement phase?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And from what I recall, and you can just tell me if this is accurate or not, there were 88 charges, approximately, and almost all of those were -- about 44 were mischief and about 44 were breaching a court order?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And none of those are violent offences?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Those two offences are not violent offences?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But if somebody was to commit a violent offence, they would typically be charged with something like assault or assault with a weapon, or ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- assault causing bodily harm?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Kidnapping, ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- forcible confinement, ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- murder. None of that. And I’m just about to wrap up here. I just want to ask a question about maintaining the roads, because you told my friend that, you know, maintaining the roads was a priority. And you said here, I think to your officers, that clearing the bridge is one thing, but maintaining the road is another. And I understand you were able to maintain the road -- you’re speaking about Huron Church Road?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is that right? And you’re able to maintain it by installing jersey barriers along the side of the road from the bridge to the 401?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Approximately.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that’s a distance of three kilometres, I think?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you had a traffic plan that you employed when you were doing that; right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that traffic plan, I won’t bring it up, I think I’m out of time, ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- or very close to it, it’s dated February 13th, 2022.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well I’ll wrap up anyway and try and get some goodwill. Supt. Earley, I take it it’s obvious that if the traffic plan is dated February 13th, 2022, it was not contemplating the use of the powers conferred by the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. Good morning, Commissioner. Good morning, Mayor.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Alan Honner. I’m a lawyer at the Democracy Fund. We share status with the JCCF and with Citizens for Freedom. Mayor, I think you gave evidence earlier today that Coutts is the only 24-hour border crossing in Alberta? Did I understand that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And about 75 kilometres away from Coutts, there’s another border crossing at Del Bonita?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if the border crossing times at Del Bonita were extended during the times of the Coutts protest?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can you tell us a little bit more about that, the hours of the days they were extended?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s fair. Thank you. I’m wondering, before the protestors left on the 15th and before the -- let me actually rephrase this. After the Emergencies Act was invoked, did you speak to any of the protestors before they left?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you told us about rumours on social media which referred to bank accounts being frozen. Were those -- were those social media accounts coming from the protestors?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And how do you know that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So these -- these were social media sites where you could sign up and you could make posts regardless of whether or not you were at the protest.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So anybody could have posted those rumours on that site.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Whatever the case is, however, you’d agree with me that the reason why the protestors ultimately leave, what you call the straw that broke the camel’s back, was the discovery of the weapons and it was not the rumours of the -- about the Emergencies Act.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And Alex van Herk was one of the spokespeople or one of the leading people at Coutts among the protestors.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We’ll move on. My friend from the Government of Canada brought up the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act. And I understand you thought that the RCMP should have used that Act against the protestors.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m sorry to interrupt. I think maybe what -- would you agree with me that the RCMP may have exercised their jurisdiction under that Act or their discretion under that Act, had the protest not ended when it did?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I just want to ask you about that Act. Is it your understanding that the Act prohibits the wilful obstruction of essential infrastructure, if that obstruction renders the infrastructure dangerous, useless, inoperative, or ineffective?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And in your view, that was happening in Coutts because of the blockade?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if somebody commits an offence under that Act, the police can arrest that person without a warrant? Is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you would take it from me that the Act says that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
There are also fines under the Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And does it accord with your understanding that the fine for a first offence can be no less than $1,000 and can be as much as $10,000?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that a fine for a second offence or a third offence can be as high as $25,000?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you know if any of the protestors at Coutts were driving company vehicles or were parking company vehicles?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But some of those trucks could have been owned by corporations?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it’s also, under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, someone can be fined -- a corporation can be fined a minimum of $10,000 for an offence and a maximum of $200,000? Did you know that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening. It’s Alan Honner for the Democracy Fund. Can you hear me?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. I’d just like to ask you a few questions about tow trucks. Can we pull up ONT.00003842? This is a document that my friend from the Government of Canada showed you earlier today.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me, I’m sorry, I think that’s not the right document.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m sorry, just bear with me for a moment, please. Sorry, that was 3842? Four zeros 3842?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sorry, can we try ONT00000179? I’m looking for an email here from Jasan Boparai. That’s it. Thank you very much. Okay. So as I was saying, this is a document that my friend from the Government of Canada showed you earlier today. If we look at the top of the second page, so if we can just scroll down there, what we see here -- and actually, if you could just scroll up a little bit? Okay. So you see just up at the top, this is an email from Jasan Boparai and later in the text of the email, he says that the third towing company has dropped out and that you’re now down to 10 tow trucks. Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And if you just scroll down to page 3. A little bit lower. That’s good. In the first point in this email, which is dated February 16th, we see that the 13 trucks are heavy tow trucks. Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So what you’re down to now is 10 heavy tow trucks, as opposed to 13 heavy tow trucks?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And would you agree with me that the -- if the companies were being compelled to provide tow truck services under the Emergencies Act or the measures available to them, they would not be able to drop out?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And so this email suggests, when we read that somebody dropped out, that the three towing companies were providing their services willingly?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, sir. My name is Alan Honner. I am a lawyer from the Democracy Fund.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And pardon me. It's good afternoon, as ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- just pointed out. Can we please pull up ALB.0000383.0001? Just while we're waiting for that to come up, you were asked about former Premier Jason Kennedy -- or Kenney earlier today. And when the document comes up, I think what it'll show is a letter dated February 15th, 2022 from the prime minister to then Premier Jason Kenney. Have you seen this document before?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. Please, just direct the Registrar.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. So if we can just look at the ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If we can just look at the first paragraph on the second page -- it's before us right now - - we see the prime minister saying that: "We are facing significant economic disruptions with the breakdown of supply chains. This is costing Canadians their jobs and undermining our economic and national security with potential significant impacts on the health and safety of Canadians." Did Premier -- former Premier Jason Kenney or anyone else ever tell you -- anyone else from the government -- ever explain to you what the prime minister meant by this reference to potential significant impacts on the health and safety of Canadians?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. Can we please pull up ALB00001517.0001? And excuse me for just a moment, please. My sincere apologies. I just had a slight domestic emergency here. There we go.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. So earlier, you told us that Alberta had formally requested assistance from the federal government, but did not receive any formal response, and eventually -- this is in respect to tow trucks -- and eventually, Alberta just obtained its own equipment?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We're looking at an email here from Peter Lemieux to you and others about equipment Alberta procured to support the RCMP operation at Coutts?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And who is Peter Lemieux?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And this equipment was procured on February 13th, 2022?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, if you just scroll down a little bit, it says here ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- "On February 13th, 2022, Government of Alberta procured the following equipment."
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is this list of equipment reflective of the equipment that the RCMP needed?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And what were those other two vehicles that are not listed here?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. And if we can just pull up PB.CAN.00001514? We saw this document earlier today. Just while we're waiting for it to be pulled up, it is an email to Rob Stewart.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You recall seeing this email, correct? If we can just scroll down a little bit?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if we can just scroll down a little bit more to where it says, "Alberta". So under the heading "Alberta", it says that the biggest operational challenge to date is procuring towing/wrecking equipment and skilled workers to operate the equipment.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
By this point, you had most of that equipment, at least?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah, of course.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So that explains why the information in the document we're looking at isn't completely current?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And by that point on February 13th, you had no idea that the federal government was about to invoke the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. If we can just pull up Document ALB.00001376.0001? And what we're looking at here is an email from Daniel Laville or Laville, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name. I'm sorry about that. But it's to you and some other people?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I think it's actually -- it's being forwarded to you, and it's dated February 15th, 2022?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that RCMP news release said that there are four people charged with conspiracy to commit murder, and they're listed here, right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I appreciate you have limited information about this, and I appreciate that these are allegations, but can you tell us or do you have any idea who these people were allegedly conspiring to murder?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. Well, I'm not going to ask you to speculate. If we look a little bit -- if we look down this list, we see that there are nine other people. They are charged with mischief and possession of weapons for a dangerous person - - for a dangerous purpose.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So 13 people were charged in total. Can you -- yes, and can we look at ALB.IR.00000001? This is the Alberta Institutional Report.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if we just go to page 8, paragraph 25. Okay, thank you very much. So this paragraph describes how the RCMP executed a warrant on three trailers, leading to the arrest of 13 individuals.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And those are clearly the same 13 individuals we just discussed?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it says here that the warrant was executed before dawn.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you happen to know if it was executed before the first ministers’ meeting which took place on February the 14th?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, I see. Okay, thank you. And earlier in you mentioned the hour of 7:30 a.m. That’s when you found out about the warrant being executed; right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Got it. Okay, thank you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It’s okay. I just wanted to make sure I understood. If we look down to paragraph 27 of the Institutional Report, it also says that the Emergencies Act was announced on the afternoon of February 14th and, based on your evidence and on the report, that was well after the RCMP successfully completed the seizure and arrests of these three -- 13 people and the offence-related property?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And you didn’t have any other information about threats at the time?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP, of course?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So nothing specific?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If I can have 30 more seconds, Commissioner?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. So just one last point. You were shown a video of Arthur Pavlovsky. And am I correct in understanding or can you confirm that he was arrested for giving that speech when he was arrested on February 8th, 2022?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, fair enough. But he was arrested on February the 8th, and he was held for bail, and he was denied for bail. He was denied bail on February 16th, 2022, but a judge from the Provincial Court of Justice; would you agree with that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening, Commissioner. Alan Honner for the Democracy Fund. We do not have any questions for this witness.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Commissioner, Deputy Commissioner.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name's Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer at the Democracy Fund. We share standing with the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom, although we are separate organisations. Can we just call up PB.NSC.CAN.00005820. So Commissioner, this is a question for you. If we can just scroll down to the top of page 2. What we see here is that there's an email here from Jody Thomas. You'll have to look down to where it says original message. And this is dated February 1st, 2022. And Jody Thomas, the National Security Intelligence Advisor says, "Good morning, Jeff has put pen to paper and" ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So --- Sorry, scroll down just a little bit more. My apologies. A little bit more. Top of page 2. Scroll down more.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, I'm sorry, scroll up. A little bit more.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Let me just -- I'll just check to make sure I have the right here. Maybe it's a version of it. Okay. Well, let's stay with this document here. Commissioner, do you recognise this document?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you know if there was -- if there would be any reason why Jody Thomas would be asking you and other people for reasons to -- for comments on criteria for revoking the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you recall being asked about that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But why would they be consulting you about that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So can we look at the top of the page, please.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sorry, can you just scroll up?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, no, no, that's okay. Just scroll up, please.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, so there's an email here from Brian Brennan, and he's one of the deputy commissioners at the RCMP?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And he makes a comment here about Rob Stewart, and he says: "Rob Stewart talks about 'assessing the threat in terms of...violence' vs 'truckers hanging around' ....not sure this is the best point of view given [that] there was no serious violence in Ottawa (the main reason for the [Emergencies Act]) but there was such a threat in Coutts but was handled with already existing authorities even though we could have used the EA in Coutts to support the operation. Plus 'truckers hanging around' is how bridges and points of entry become blockades." Do you agree with the remarks of your deputy commissioner here?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So let me ask you about something else, then. We heard earlier today that the Integrated Planning Team presented you and OPP Commissioner Carrique with a plan on February the 13th, and you told us that you found that plan to be satisfactory.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In your witness statement, I put it to you, that you describe that plan differently. You said that it was an amazing plan and you wanted to see it actioned promptly.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And your evidence today was that you were the window to law enforcement for Cabinet.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And so I'm confused about whether you actually attended the IRB meeting or the Cabinet meeting of February the 13th. I thought you said in your evidence that you weren't sure if you attended those meetings.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So you attended, but you're not sure if you spoke. And my friend from the government of Saskatchewan brought this to you, but if we could -- brought this up with you, but if we could pull up the Cabinet meeting. That's SSM.NSC.CAN.00000216. Okay. So if we go to page 8, you are not giving the Situational Report here, but Advisor -- NSIA Advisor Jody Thomas is giving that Situational Report. Why is that? Because I thought you usually gave those Situational Reports?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And let’s go to the Cabinet meeting. Sorry, this is the Cabinet meeting.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
This is 216. So let’s go SSM.CAN.0000095. Maybe six zeros. And what we’re looking at here is, I believe it’s the Incident Response Group meeting from February 13th. And if we could scroll down to page 5, please? Here we see the Minister of Public Safety is outlining the great progress that has been made on clearing the Ambassador Bridge. He talks about enforcement actions that are occurring at Coutts and Emerson. He talks about the establishment of the Integrated Command Centre in Ottawa. He describes that a significant concrete action. But what he’s giving here, it seems to me, is an update on law enforcement. Do you agree about that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Isn’t this an update about law enforcement?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that’s something that you would usually give, but you didn’t give it that day?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And both of these documents that we just looked at, they’re heavily redacted, but I don’t see you speaking ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- on either of those days, although the documents confirm that you were in attendance.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. No, I saw that. And do you think that you were not invited to speak because you had reservations about invoking the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My friend from Commission Counsel earlier today brought you to a request for a security assessment, which was directed to Adriana Poloz and not to the RCMP. And was that perhaps because you had reservations about the implication of the Emergencies Act? Commissioner, I know I’m just about out of time.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it’s not ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Okay.
-
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So she was asked, but you were not asked?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you were not even notified about it?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You learned about that today?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I just want to show you, very quickly, the email of February the 14th. This is SSM.NSC.CAN00000216. And it’s this email in which you express your reservations to Minister Mendicino about invoking the Emergencies Act because there are other existing tools at law that haven’t been exhausted. I just want to show you the time of that email. I believe it’s sent just after midnight. But if we’re doing Greenwich Meridian time, that would be five hours back.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So I think between 7:00 and 8:00 o’clock.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. That’s fine. Do you recall the email was showed to you earlier today and it was dated -- sorry, it was timestamped just after midnight?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well would you take it from me that it was time stamped just after midnight? Or should I pull it up?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And if we deduct five hours, that brings us between 7:00 and 8:00 o’clock Eastern Standard Time. And you would agree with me that’s shortly before the Cabinet meeting happened on February the 13th?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And so before that Cabinet meeting was held, Minister Mendicino and others knew about your position on the Emergencies Act?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. Thank you very much.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening, Alan Honner for the Democracy Fund. I have a very short questions for you. I should be out of here in two minutes. We've heard evidence ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, it's an aspiration.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So we've heard evidence about how the Province of Alberta secured its own equipment after having trouble securing tow trucks. But before doing that, I understand that the RCMP contacted tow truck companies from the western and northwestern United States, but they all refused to help. Is that right?
-
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And one of the reasons was some of those tow operators were unable to assist was because they were unvaccinated.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is that correct?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
They were prevented from coming into Canada because there was an Order in Council in place which prevented unvaccinated people from coming into the country unless they were part of an exempted class. Does that sound right to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Tow truck drivers were not part of that exempted class as far as you know?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And this border mandate, sorry, this border mandate that we're talking about, the vaccine mandate, was in fact one of the animated -- animating factors behind the Coutts protests and other protests across Canada.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Ms. Bogden, good morning, Mr. Hutchinson.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Alan Honner, and I’m lawyer at the Democracy Fund. I just have a few questions for you. And I apologize; I arrived a little bit late today, and I had to listen to some of your evidence in my car. And so I just want to confirm; at the SSE meetings, the RCMP Commissioner and the CSIS Director would provide situational updates to Ministers such as Minister Blair and Minister Mendicino?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. And both of you would have been there as well.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And the President of the CBSA was in attendance, and so was the NSIA?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But they were sometimes present?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And later when the Prime Minister convened the IRG meetings, you were both in attendance.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And Commission Counsel didn’t concentrate on this area, for the sake of time, but I understand you both attended Cabinet meetings as well.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You attended the Cabinet meeting on February the 13th, though, did you not?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s fine. And Mr. Hutchinson, you were there as well, I understand.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And that was the last Cabinet meeting before the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Can we please pull up SSM.NSC.CAN00000242_REL.0001? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So on that day, on the day of that last Cabinet meeting before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, NSIA Jody Thomas gave a situational update. And what we’re looking at right now appears to be remarks that were prepared for her to deliver to Cabinet that day. Does that sound right to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I won’t ask you about everything she said at Cabinet because I understand some of that is subject to national security confidentiality, but I want to take you to parts of this document and then just ask you about them. So if we can scroll down just a little bit. So the first -- stop there, please. So first of all, we see this notation about Ottawa, and we have a note that the: “City of Ottawa [agreed] announced an agreement with protest leader (Tamara Lich) that could lead to [approximately] 70 per cent of trucks and cars [leaving]...residential areas in the downtown...[for] the next 24 hours...” And it goes on, and then if we look down just a little bit more. If we can scroll down to Windsor, that’s great. Before I go on with Ottawa, at this point, NSIA Jody Thomas did not announce, I understand, the fact that the OPP and the OPS and the RCMP had an operational plan that they were about to put into place, right? You don’t recall that, do you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You know what, we’ll come back to that. Let’s just go back here. So to Windsor, we have an update: “As of [February 13th], police enforcement actions continue with reports of arrests being made and vehicles towed.”
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And we know that later on that night, just past midnight, the bridge was reopened; correct?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And can we scroll down some more, please? A little bit more. More, please. Okay. So Emerson, Manitoba: “As of [February 13th], the blockade remains north of the POE.” If we look down to Coutts: “All services have been temporarily suspended at Coutts POE as of [1400 hours Eastern time]...” And you’ll agree with me that arrests happened later on that day, and Coutts was actually cleared. We know that now, but you didn’t know that then, right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So we have Coutts still going on, we have Emerson going on, and can we scroll down a bit more? A little bit more? So Sarnia, "As of [...] Feb[ruary 13th], the Bluewater Bridge remains open in both directions. Fort Erie, [Ontario]: As of 13[th of] Feb[ruary], Fort Erie POE is open for commercial and traveller traffic..." And if we look down below, "Toronto [...]: No major impacts reported from protest activity." And can we scroll down a little bit more, please? Now we see Winnipeg, no major impacts. Fredericton, no major impacts. "Cornwall, On[tario]: As of 13[th] Feb[ruary], the Cornwall POE remains open." We see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Saskatchewan, no major impacts. Sorry, that's Regina, Saskatchewan. Halifax, no major impacts. Montreal, no major impacts. Scroll down a little bit more, please? We get an update here about the IMVE. I won't go through it for the sake of time. Can we scroll down a little bit more? We get an update here about what's going on internationally. And if you can scroll down a little bit more, we get an update about foreign interference. "RRM Canada has not observed any significant indicators of foreign state-linked interference as it relates to the "Truckers Convoy." Can you remind us what RRM is, please?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mr. Hutchinson, do you recall?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But they monitor for indicators of foreign ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- interference.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's fine.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If we can scroll down a little bit more, please? A little bit more. "CSIS/CSE: No concerns at [that --] this time. Social Media Analysis:" I won't go through it, but let's look at the overall assessment here. And what we see if a remark that, "The majority of the events have been peaceful." Now what I want to ask you, based on, you know, everything -- all the meetings you've attended up until that point, all the briefings you've attended up until that point, do you think this document leaves out anything important, other than things that are privileged?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Anything important that the government would want to know when deciding whether or not to invoke the Emergencies Act. Does this sort of show a totality of the circumstances across the country?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm just asking you about what you would know based on all the briefings you've attended ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- up until that time.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
M'hm.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
M'hm.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, let me just stop you for a second. Can we scroll up to where it's going to mention Vancouver here? Just maybe a little bit -- right there. Okay. So as of February 13th, no delays reported at the Pacific POE by the CBSA.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And then ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, you did ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And let me just ask you one last question just to follow up on what you said. You mentioned the situation in B.C., and was that the situation with the truck, which apparently broke through the blockades?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I believe that made it into the Section 58 explanation that there was a military style vehicle that broke through the blockades.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you are aware that by military style vehicle, they meant a vehicle that was painted in camouflage?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening. My name is Alan Honner and I am a lawyer of the Democracy Fund. I’m just going to put on my timer to make sure I don’t go too long here. My friend from the CCF was just asking you about a threat assessment from CSIS. And I think prior to that, he put a statement to you from CSIS, and it is still up here. And I’ll just ask the clerk to leave it up. And it says here: “He requested that the Service prepare a threat assessment on the risks associated with the invocation of the Emergencies Act. He felt an obligation to clearly convey the Service’s position that there did not exist a threat to the security of Canada.” (As read) If I can ask the Clerk to please pull up TS.NSC.CAN.001.00000172_Rel.001? I believe my friend Mr. Miller brought this up earlier today. Just while we're waiting for that document, Ms. Drouin, you would agree with me -- okay. Well, let's -- can we just make it a little bit bigger, please, and can we scroll down a little bit? And so in the first paragraph here that’s unredacted, we see a reference to the Emergency Act and how it might galvanize broader anti-government narratives. Can we scroll down a little bit more? And we see again that it has the potential to similarly radicalize Canadians.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In the last paragraph that’s above us right now, we see that the declaration of an emergency by the Province of Ontario under the Emergency Management and Civil Protections Act has resulted in a significant increase in violent rhetoric towards the premier of Ontario and other senior elected officials. And if we go down a little bit more -- and what we don’t see in this threat assessment is the statement by the CSIS director in which he says that there is no threat to the security of Canada. We don’t see that anywhere in this document; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But I'm going to put it to you that we don’t see that because it's redacted.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fine. I'll move on. And this statement was never put by you to the Cabinet?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. Ms. Drouin, you would agree with me that CSIS does not investigate family violence because family violence does not constitute a threat to the security of Canada, agreed?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s fine. I'm not asking for an explanation. I'm just asking you if you agree with that statement?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The statement is ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- CSIS does not investigate family violence because family violence does not constitute a threat to the security of Canada; do you agree?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Ms. Charette, you made the point -- and just tell me if I'm repeating it correctly -- I think you made the point that a CSIS investigation under section 2 does not always trigger the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Am I repeating that correctly?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And you would agree with me ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. And I think you'll agree with me that there are different types of emergencies under the Emergencies Act, but let's just stick with the Public Order Emergency. For that type of emergency to exist, there have to be threats to the security of Canada but the emergency also has to be so serious as to constitute a national emergency; do you agree?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it's possible that there would be threats to the security of Canada that don’t rise to the level of a national emergency?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that would explain why the governor of council doesn’t invoke the Emergencies Act every time there are threats to the security of Canada? Okay. Thank you very much. In your memo to the prime minister -- I won't pull it up -- but on page 11 -- this is the memorandum dated February 14th ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah, I think that the title is "Memo to Canada", but whatever it's called, at paragraph 11, you say, when you're discussing communications, that: "The government could lean on like- minded messaging from external stakeholders and partners to support the need of the measures at this time." What were you referring to? Who are these partners? Who are these stakeholders?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, absolutely.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The memo, I believe it is SSM.NSC.CAN00003224.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if we can go to page 11, please?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, please don’t apologize.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So right at the bottom here, for public communications: "Further, public communications should emphasize the fair and proportionate action taken by government." And then the last sentence: "The government could also lean on like-minded messaging from external stakeholders and partners to support the need for the measures at this time." Who are those partners? Who are those stakeholders?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is it a reference to the RCMP?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is it a reference to newspapers?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Understood, thank you. One last question. There was a threat assessment referred to in this memo to the prime minister, and my friend from the Government of Saskatchewan brought up an email from Jody Thomas, and that email says: "I need an assessment for Janice about the threat of these blockades, the characters involved, the weapons, the motivation." You recall that, of course? It was just up before you.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I'll ask the clerk to please pull up PB.NSC.CAN.00003462_REL0001. And just while we're waiting for the document to come up, I can tell you that it came up in the examination of Commissioner Brenda Lucki and it's correspondence from Mike MacDonald to Adriana Poloz, and Mike MacDonald is from the PCO; is that right?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And it looks like Adriana Poloz is from the RCMP. And then from Commissioner Lucki's exam, I think we concluded that Jody Thomas' request for a threat assessment was passed down to Ms. Poloz. And if we scroll down a little bit here -- a little bit more, please -- just a little bit more -- oh, I'm sorry, just up a little bit. Pardon me. Right there. If we look at this email, we see that she identifies three groups, and the first group is a group called the Three Percenters, the second is called Diagalon -- if you scroll down a little bit -- and the last one is called Canadians First.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I put it to you that these are the only IMVE groups that were identified by the RCMP.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did the RCMP identify any other IMVE groups to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But can you tell us who they are?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm sorry, can you -- I just didn’t hear that last part.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can -- just the last sentence, please.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I'm out of time here, so let me just ask you one last question here. And you would agree with me that in your memo to the Prime Minister, dated February 14th, you told him "There is no current evidence of significant implications by extremist groups or international sponsors"?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But the memo contains your advice to the Prime Minister.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Minister. My name's Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer at the Democracy Fund. We share status with the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom. Can we please pull up SSM.CAN.00002665? Minister, while we're waiting for that, you will recall that on February the 14th at or around 4:30 p.m., you held a press conference with the Prime Minister as well as other Ministers, and at that press conference, Prime Minister announced the invocation of the Emergencies Act. If we could scroll down to the bottom of this document, about halfway down the fourth page -- no, I think we have the wrong document. 2665. That's it. If we can scroll down to the bottom of the document?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. At the bottom of the document, we see that this is an email from Emily Kanter of the PMO's office and it's dated February the 13th, 2022, and it is sent to David Taylor, among others. Can you confirm for me that David Taylor was your Director of Communications?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you. And this email is referring to a noon press conference happening on the 14th with the Prime Minister and a number of Ministers, and it says ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That's right, but you can see it in front of you; right? And it says the press conference, "...is to provide an update on the federal government response to the Blockade as well as the Ukraine."
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that ended up being the press conference at which you and the Prime Minister announced that the Emergencies Act was being invoked?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So let's just scroll up to the top -- sorry, the bottom of the second page. That's great. And if we can just scroll down a little bit, so we can see this entire email. That's good. Thank you. Here we have an email from Vanessa Hage-Moussa at the PMO's office saying, "Presser tracking for 4pm. This is not to be shared publicly until [First Minister's Meeting] over and PM updated itinerary is out..." Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And, Minister, I put it to you that the reason this press conference was not to be shared publicly until after the First Minister's meeting is because the Prime Minister and Cabinet had already decided to invoke the Emergencies Act before the First Minister's meeting took place and it would not look right if the press conference, which would ultimately announce the Emergencies Act was scheduled before the end of that First Minister's meeting.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But, sir, I just want ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- you to read this ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you, sir.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I only have five minutes.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If I could just continue with this email.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, I don't want the context.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I just want ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- I just wanted to ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- put it to you to see if you agree with it or not, and you ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- disagree.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I can move on.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you, sir.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Then if you disagree, I would like to take you to another part of this email. You'll see that this email that we're looking at right now is at 11:05, and obviously, from the context here, the First Minister's meeting has not yet finished. You can agree with that, yes?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, but from the context, it says this is not to be shared publicly until the First Minister's meeting is over. So from the context, the First Minister's meeting is not over at the time this email is written; correct?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir, you can agree ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- you cannot ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I just want to know if you agree with me that the First Minister's meeting had not taken place yet.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So, sir ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- if we can continue here, this email says, "As discussed with you, [Minister] Lametti will also have brief remarks." And if we look up the page, there's a response to this email from David Taylor, your Communication's Director, saying that he is drafting your remarks. Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And the timing of that email is 11:06. That's exactly one email -- one minute after the email we just read.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And so, sir, what we see here is that David Taylor is drafting remarks, your remarks for the 4:30 meeting at which the invocation of the Emergencies Act was announced, and he's drafting those remarks before the end of the First Minister's meeting.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, I put it to you, sir ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure, then I put it to you ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir, I put it to you ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, may I have two more minutes?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir, I put it to you, you'll agree with me that the remarks you did make at 4:30 were, in fact, though, the invoking the Emergencies Act? And I will not put it -- I will not call it up, but it's in the record, it's OTT00007224-0001. That is what happened at 4:30 that day on the 14th?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Can we please pull up SSM.CAN.00008737? Sir, this is a text message exchange between you and Greg Fergus, and if we can just stop for a moment, he says, "Marco is talking, talking, talking at the meeting with..." And we can't see it because it's covered up by the date, which is February 13th. It says "caucus". And if we just go down a little bit ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- you talk a little bit about that -- it's you in the purple, "Our only other legal option is the emergencies act." Mr. Fergus says, "That['s] exactly where people are at. It is where I am at." You respond, "And me. And Marco, but he is being a good soldier." If we can scroll down, now we have Mr. Fergus say at 1:28 p.m. on the 13th, "Consensus from our call: 1. Use [the] Emergencies Act." He goes through a couple of other criteria, but let's just scroll down a little bit. And you don't contradict him; do you? You don't contradict him at any point that that was the consensus coming out of your call on the 13th.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
M'hm.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, let's go through the text message then.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
M'hm.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sir, the text messages in evidence, we’ll leave it for submissions, if I can just put one more document to you, and this is SSM.CAN.00008754. Sir, I started off this examination by talking to you about the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Now I just want to talk to you very briefly, for about 30 seconds, about its revocation.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
This is another email exchange between you and Greg Fergus, and he says on February 23rd: "I am glad we ended the EA, but it would have been more appropriate if we waited until Friday? Forty-four (44) after the vote seems unseemly." And your response is: "No, we needed to stay ahead of the NDP and the senators were saying that they would vote against based on their view that there was no longer an emergency." That is your text message with Mr. Fergus?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And this my last question. I put it to you that this text message shows that, in fact, you would have kept the Emergencies Act in place for longer had it not been for the fact that you were concerned that the NDP would withdraw their support and that the senators would vote against.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We’ll leave that to submissions. Thank you very much, Minister.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good after, Minister.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name’s Alan Honner. I’m a lawyer at the Democracy Fund and we share status with the JC Citizens for Freedom. Ms. Freeland, in your witness statement, you mentioned challenges to supply chains as being a major focus for you in January of 2022, but you didn’t mention the government vaccine mandate for truckers, and I’d just like to ask you a little bit about that. Can we please pull up OTT00027621.0001? And Ms. Freeland, while we’re waiting for that to come up, this is a letter which is addressed to you and other ministers by the Canadian Trucking Alliance and it’s dated December 10th, 2021, and I’d like to take you through part of this letter. But before I do that, can you tell me, do you know who this group is, the Canadian Trucker Alliance?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well, I think we’ve heard some evidence about them but if you’re not familiar with them, that’s okay. Let’s just go down to the first paragraph here. And Ms. Freeland, I just want to read this to you. It said that: "The Canadian Trucker Alliance is disappointed to learn that our current exemption from the national vaccination mandate is being removed considering the immense impact this decision will have on already beleaguered supply chains." Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And if I can take you to another part of that letter, just on the second page, second paragraph, please, here we see: "CTA estimates that, combined, the proposed vaccine mandate for cross- border truck drivers and the federal sector mandate announced by the Minister of Labour would remove between 15,000 and 30,000 Canadian drivers from the interprovincial and international supply chains. The expected loss of transportation service capacity will trigger significant ripple effects throughout the entire economy." And Mr. Freeland, I just want to ask you -- this is something you knew about. When the exemption for truckers was removed in February, you knew that this might have some effect on the supply chain; is that fair?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. And I’m going to suggest this is not the first this group wrote to you. If we can scroll down to page 5, please, we have another letter -- just to the top of page 5 -- sorry, it might be page 4, just go up, please. Okay, so here we have a letter. It is -- a little bit down, please. I’m sorry, can we just scroll to the top -- so December 8th, 2021, and if we can scroll down to the second paragraph, it says here: "When the mandate was originally announced, CTA expected that upwards of 20 percent of the 120,000 Canadian truck drivers crossing the US-Canada border would have likely remained unvaccinated by January 2022. Of the 40,000 US-based truck drivers crossing the border, CTA estimated that upwards of 40 percent of these drivers would not be prepared to meet the vaccine mandate requirement." Do you see that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And just one last question about this, you would agree that the reduction of truck drivers crossing the border when there are already supply chain issues could have an effect on the economy?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But they affected it, they had a contribution to that supply chain problem?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well, let's scroll down ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well, let's go to page 6, please. And the first paragraph that we see there, the CTA is giving the stats that truckers -- you have of 70 percent of the $648 billion Canada/U.S. trade. Does that sound about right to you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You have ---
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- disagree with it though.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I think we can all agree on that. And let's just consider that if what the Canadian -- if what the CTA is saying is correct and the drivers are reduced by 20 percent, that’s a reduction of 24,000 trucks in the supply chain.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So you disagree with the fundamental premise of the Canadian Trucker Alliance. Thank you. I'll move on to something else. I just want to understand a little bit more about what was going on in January. And you gave some evidence today, and I think you told us that it was a very intense month for you. That would be fair?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And let me make sure that I understand it. So on the one hand, you were preparing a budget?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And there was the issue of the Build Back Better legislation in the States, and there was the electric vehicle tax credit, right? That was on your plate?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And there was the COVID recovery and there were local and global supply chain issues?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And there was the looking threat of inflation?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And we talked a little bit about the Ukraine, and I think you said that was the biggest threat to national security since World War II?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The Russian invasion.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it was on your radar in January?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And in the midst of this, there was this trucker protest of unprecedented proportions taking place across the country, and you described that as Whack-a-Mole?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I see. I thought you said the word Whack-a-Mole, but it's not important. But what is important, I would put to you, is that the U.S. was unhappy with the situation in Canada and they were seeing their own vulnerability in our supply chains. That was your evidence, was it not?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And they didn’t like that?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Exactly, and I put it to you, Minister, that the government felt that they had to do something about these protests, not because of threats of serious violence, but because your government was completely overwhelmed and you were under a tremendous amount of pressure from the United States.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well, we heard evidence from you earlier today, and you said that you were put into contact with Brian Dietz. So he's economic advisor to the president who's a very influential player in the decision of the electric vehicle tax credit issue, and he actually contacted you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right? And you thought that it was striking that someone of his importance who's so hard to get a hold of, contacted you?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And he was unhappy and there could be major economic consequences?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And we heard that the CEOs of two major banks contacted you, Canadian banks, I believe. And we also heard that President Biden, who's probably the world's most powerful person or near that, had a telephone call with the prime minister?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that telephone call, it happened on a Friday and by the Monday, the Emergencies Act was invoked.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And so I put it to you, Minister, that the federal government had to show the USA that they were in control and that explains why the Emergencies Act was invoked, despite the fact that, for example, the Ambassador Bridge was cleared and open to traffic.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, I would put it to you that the pressure the government was under explains why the Emergencies Act was invoked despite the fact that a deal had been struck with the protesters in Ottawa to reduce the footprint of the protest in that city.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, let's see if you would agree with this. I put it to you that there was no meaningful consultation with the provinces, not even advance notice of what the first minister's meeting was about, and that’s because the government didn’t have time for it, they just had to make a decision about the Emergencies Act because of the tremendous pressure that they were under.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
One last question for you then, Ms. Freeland. I put it to you that given the overwhelming situation that the government was facing explains why they were willing to use extraordinary powers against their own people, despite the fact that no police agency or intelligence agency told them that there were threats to the security of Canada.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It seems so. Thank you very much for your answers. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening. My name's Alan Honner. I'm a lawyer from the Democracy Fund. I just have a few questions for you, and they're directed to anyone at the panel. You were asked about political commentary from the United States. And if I recall correctly, that was something that President Biden and Prime Minister Trudeau spoke about?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I just want to ask you about some of the political commentary which happened after the invocation of the Emergencies Act, by which -- and after the meeting with President Biden, which I understand to be February 11th.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, thank you. But can we pull up PB.CAN 00000069_REL 0001? And this is a letter from Premier Kenney, Premier Moe and 16 governors from the United States of America. And I believe it's dated February the 16th. And my friends from -- and correct me if I misconstrue this letter, but the signatories here are expressing concern over vaccine requirements and the impacts of requirements on the North American supply chain, the cost of living, and the availability of essential products for people from both countries. My question for you is, how does a letter like this get before the Prime Minister?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, of course.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And this letter here, I assume it's important because we got 16 governors from the United States. It's our biggest trading partner, our best ally. Notably, it's signed by the Governor of Montana. Of course, Montana's right across from Coutts, Alberta. Did this letter get to the Prime Minister; do you know?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you. Could we pull up PB.CAN.00001045_REL.0001? And the document we're going to see here, it's not dated, but the top words are "Congressional Reaction". And it contains a number of tweets, including a tweet from a Matt Rosendale. He's a member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Montana. And this appears to be after the invocation of the Emergencies Act, and he says that he. "...led 63 [Republican] colleagues in support of the truckers protest[...] [in] COVID-19 mandates, and urging [President] Joe Biden to work with Canada to lift the mandates on essential travel at the border." Do you know if this was ever brought to the Prime Minister's attention?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. One more document. SSM.NSC.CAN00000172. And this is -- when it comes up, if I got the number right. Yes, so this is an email from a Deputy Jacques Adam to -- Deputy Minister Jacques Adam to Deputy Minister David Morrison. I'm not sure if they're both from Global Affairs Canada, but the email sets out U.S. Political Reactions to Canadian Measures. It's dated February the 16th. And if we can just look at Item Number 2 here. We see that there are different comments. One of the comments here is: "'Canadian truckers being fired and now targeted as "terrorists" by your woke government.'" And it is attributed to a U.S. House of Representatives, a member, and there are other remarks from other politicians, which are somewhat uncomplimentary towards our country. Do you know if this document was ever brought to the Prime Minister's attention?
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much, those are my questions.
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Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, my name is Alan Honner and I’m counsel for the Democracy Fund, but I’m also addressing you on behalf of the JCCF and Citizens for Freedom. We’d like to express our gratitude for this opportunity to participate in these proceedings. At the commencement of these public hearings, we stated that our goal was to get to the truth about why the Government invoked public order emergency. We wanted to hear evidence about whether the Government met the legal threshold for invoking the Emergencies Act. And Commissioner, we have heard evidence on many issues, but the reason -- the reasons why the Emergencies Act was invoked is the primary and ultimate issue you should turn your mind to. I won’t repeat the test for declaring a public order emergency because we’ve all heard it so many times, but I would like to address just one part of that test. Threats to the security of Canada. In one way, this is a very high threshold for the Government to meet, as threats to the security of Canada means more than ordinary threats or acts of violence. The definition requires serious violence or threats of serious violence for the purpose of achieving political, religious, or ideological objective. In our written submissions, we will be looking at, among other things, the definition of terrorist activity set out in the Criminal Code and how it is similar to the CSIS definition. And in fact, some of the CSIS documents that were disclosed to the parties through this Inquiry show that CSIS refers to section 2(c) as terrorism and extreme violence. And this reference is indicative of just how high that threshold is. We submit, and the Prime Minister’s evidence left little doubt that this very high threshold is the same whether it applies in the Emergencies Act or the CSIS Act. The context, the decision-maker and the purpose are obviously different. There may even be different inputs, but those inputs are meant to answer the same question: are there threats or acts of serious violence for political, religious, or ideological purposes? And that is the one and only standard. Commissioner, I have made reference to how high the threshold is, but in a different way it's a low threshold, and on the issue of threats to security of Canada, it doesn't require, for example, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, nor does it even require proof on a balance of probabilities. The threshold only requires the Governor in Council to actually believe that there are threats to the security of Canada, and it requires that belief to be reasonable. And respectfully, we submit, and we'll argue in detail, that the Government has not even met this low threshold. There may be reasonable grounds to believe that some acts of violence were happening, ripping off masks, police officers being swarmed, eggs being thrown, coffee being thrown. These and other things may have happened in the protest, which was of unprecedented proportions. And let me be clear, that is not acceptable. But those acts do not rise to the level of violence or threats which are required by the Act, and further, they do not reflect the attitudes, actions, and values of the vast majority of peaceful protesters. Even the most significant threat we've heard of, which was the presence of weapons in Coutts, does not meet this threshold, and even if it did, it was neutralised. Those alleged criminals were sitting in an Alberta jail when the Emergencies Act was invoked. The threshold requires present threats, not past threats, not fear of the unknown. Canadians, and even the international community are and will continue to be divided over the Freedom Convoy protests. Canadians will also be divided over future protests. As one of my friends aptly observed, tomorrow's protest could be environmental issues, or it could be about some other political cause. To safeguard democracy, the rule of law, and the cherished right to protest for everyone, no matter what you believe, we must ensure that the Emergencies Act is only used as a last resort in the direst circumstances. Our detailed submissions will follow. We'd like to thank you again, Commissioner, Commission Counsel, and the parties.