Hatim Kheir

Title
Counsel
Organization / Affiliation
Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Hatim Kheir spoke 228 times across 9 days of testimony.

  1. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon, Acting Superintendent Beaudin. I'm Hatim Kheir. I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. So am I correct in thinking that negotiation is one of the tools that police have available to them when responding to a demonstration of civil disobedience?

    09-218-27

  2. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And in fact, it's a tool that police should be using and prioritising?

    09-219-06

  3. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And you talked about a measured approached, we've heard a lot about that today. You know, helping me out from a civilian perspective, is it fair to say that a measured approach is a strategy that leads with negotiation and then escalates to enforcement as necessary?

    09-219-10

  4. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And you agree that had a measured approach been implemented the protest could've been ended much sooner?

    09-219-21

  5. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And so we heard earlier about a proposal where a meeting with federal politicians would be offered, and then in exchange leaders would tell protesters to leave and denounce unlawful behaviour; right?

    09-219-25

  6. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And this plan, if implemented, do you think it could've reduced the footprint of the protest?

    09-220-02

  7. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And so placing that within the larger strategic goals, reducing the footprint would then reduce some of the challenges faced by officers undertaking enforcement efforts?

    09-220-10

  8. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And -- so then, therefore, it would've reduced perhaps the need for the numbers of officers in engaging in enforcement efforts?

    09-220-15

  9. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And would you also agree that it would've have reduced the need for enforcement itself to the extent that each protester who leaves voluntarily is one less protester who has to be taken away by force?

    09-220-19

  10. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Sure. And you know, looking back at what actually happened, would you agree that negotiation was a tool that was actually underutilised in the response?

    09-220-26

  11. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And to the extent that negotiations did actually take place, would you agree that they were undermined by misguided enforcement efforts, for example, the incident at Coventry Road?

    09-221-08

  12. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And within this measured approach strategy, part of the idea is that smaller concessions are then the foundation to build up to larger concessions?

    09-221-20

  13. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And would you agree that the failure to properly engage with protesters, including some of the missed opportunities you talk about, led to an unnecessarily heavy-handed enforcement measures after the federal declaration of emergency?

    09-222-07

  14. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And Commissioner, I see I'm out of time. If I could just ask one more question?

    09-222-25

  15. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Thank you. But just in terms of those numbers of people that were still there and willing to then face the police, you'd agree that had negotiations up to that point be handled differently that number could've been smaller and ---

    09-222-28

  16. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- that situation could've been different?

    09-223-07

  17. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you.

    09-223-11

  18. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon, or I suppose good evening. My name's Hatim Kheir. I am a representative for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. Are you -- did you have the opportunity to hear Superintendent Morris's evidence given to this Commission?

    10-299-26

  19. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Are you aware that Superintendent Morris indicated that he had no indication that there was a national security threat posed by the protest?

    10-300-05

  20. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Do you have any reason to doubt the intelligence that Superintendent Morris had received?

    10-300-10

  21. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And just to confirm, you were just showed a -- an Intelligence report from a private company. Are you aware of any of the potential information that was -- that went into forming that report?

    10-300-13

  22. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. No further questions, thank you.

    10-300-22

  23. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Hatim Kheir for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. We support the Freedom Convoy Organizers position, and if I could just make a few points. So first, the terms of reference in the Emergencies Act do require investigating and looking into the appropriateness of the measures that were used. Interim Chief Bell testified that using emergency powers were used to create an exclusion zone and that they relied on that authority, and so I would expect that these witnesses as arrestees would have evidence that would be relevant to the implementation of that authority. Also, to the extent that my friend made the point that these are but two arrestees of many, we did hear from two Ottawa residents who provided their experiences as examples, and that would then represent a broader class of individuals, so this would also be two arrestees providing their experiences which would then be emblematic of others in a similar position. And I would just like to add on, my friend, Mr. Honner, from The Democracy Fund provided submissions through email. He’s not here. I would just briefly read it in just to provide his perspective as well: “The Democracy Fund submitted that the evidence of these witnesses is relevant to the Commission’s mandate. Specifically, the Commissioner has been directed to examine issues to the extent relating to the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. Superintendent Robert Bernier and others testified about the mission statement contained in the OPS Operational Plan of February 13th which speaks to enforcing legislation with the ‘utmost respect to the individual’s Charter of Rights’. There was evidence before the Commission that this plan evolved after the declaration of the Emergencies Act and there was also evidence that the OPS found the powers available to them under the Emergencies Act to be useful. The Commission should hear evidence from these witnesses, as it will speak to how police enforcement was carried out during the state of emergency from a protestor perspective. If there are objections as to relevance as the evidence unfolds, those objections can be dealt with orally. If other witnesses need to be recalled, that decision can be made after the hearing of evidence from the witnesses in question.” (As read) So that was Mr. Honner’s submission, which the Justice Centre also supports.

    17-079-16

  24. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon. I am Hatim Kheir, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms.

    22-279-24

  25. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    In the interests of time, I'm going to focus my questions on you, Ms. Termorshuizen. So you said in your testimony in-chief something to the effect that it's important that Canada be seen as welcoming to investment. Would you agree with that statement?

    22-279-28

  26. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And maintaining that reputation involves being known as the kind of country where it has conditions that are favourable to investors?

    22-280-06

  27. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So taking a step back from Canada specifically, would you agree that as a general principle, one of the things that investors look for is stability?

    22-280-10

  28. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    That includes social stability?

    22-280-15

  29. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Economic stability?

    22-280-17

  30. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Legal and political stability?

    22-280-19

  31. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And that’s true, because in many countries, there's political instability that can affect people's legal rights, for example, their property rights, correct?

    22-280-21

  32. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And you know, the kind of situation where the political instability in a country might, for example, affect the property interests of an investor would make that undesirable to the investor, right?

    22-281-01

  33. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    All right. And would you agree that investors would be hesitant to invest somewhere where their property might be subject to confiscation without judicial authorization, for example?

    22-281-11

  34. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And the same would be true for seizure or freezing without judicial authorization?

    22-281-17

  35. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Now, under the Emergency Economic Measures, the bank accounts of protesters and donors could be frozen without prior judicial authorization. Don’t you think that that could affect their confidence in Canada as a place to make their investments?

    22-281-20

  36. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But prior to the declaration of emergency, there wasn’t a law that authorized the freezing of those bank accounts, right?

    22-282-01

  37. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So the Emergency Economic Measure, was it necessary to take that action then?

    22-282-06

  38. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But don’t you think that responding to a political protest by extrajudicially preventing people from accessing their own funds would deter people from wanting to place their money in the Canadian financial system?

    22-282-11

  39. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So you don’t think that subjecting property rights and the financial system really as a whole to rules made without legislative deliberation or any sort of judicial pre-authorization system would concern a potential investor?

    22-282-19

  40. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Now, one of the things you stated is that the Emergencies Act sent a message to investors that Canada was doing something about the protests, but that same message could have been sent by other federal government action, couldn't it have?

    22-282-27

  41. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But successful police enforcement would have assuaged those concerns, wouldn't it?

    22-283-13

  42. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, we've heard from police witnesses that the protests would have been cleared even had the Emergencies Act not been invoked, and you have no reason to believe, for the purposes of Global Affairs' responsibilities, that the Emergency Act would have been necessary for other reasons then, do you?

    22-283-20

  43. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But what I'm asking is that given that we've heard from police or the experts in policing matters that they've said that they could respond to the protest without the Emergencies Act, for the purposes of matters directly under the concern of Global Affairs Canada, the Emergency Act wasn’t necessary for something outside of policing the protest, correct?

    22-284-01

  44. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. No further questions. Thank you.

    22-284-10

  45. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good morning. I'm Hatim Kheir, Counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. The first topic I wanted to ask you about is the power for border agents to turn people away if they are coming to participate in a protest under the Emergencies Act.

    24-095-19

  46. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So you testified that that was one of the powers that was granted to border agents by the Emergency Regulations?

    24-095-25

  47. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And you were also asked about the ability of border agents to turn away people who are coming for a known unlawful purpose and they could do that if they knew about that; correct?

    24-096-01

  48. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Sorry, before the Emergency Measures were ---

    24-096-06

  49. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right, but you were asked if you knew someone was -- if your agents, sorry, were -- knew that an individual was coming to enter the country in order to engage in unlawful activity, your agents could turn that person away; correct?

    24-096-11

  50. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And you indicated that one of the problems with that is that your agents would actually have to know that a person is coming for that purpose, which could be difficult; right?

    24-096-18

  51. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And under the Emergency Regulations, your agents could turn someone away if they were known to be coming to engage in a certain kind of prohibited public gathering that might breach the peace through ---

    24-096-23

  52. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. So but your agents would then face the same problem in terms of having to identify a person's intentions; correct?

    24-096-28

  53. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And the same thing would happen if a person's purpose for coming was an unlawful reason; correct?

    24-097-08

  54. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you. And the other topic I wanted to ask you, so you described how the CBSA was able to help facilitate obtaining tow trucks by waiving the requirement for a work permit to enter the country; correct?

    24-097-12

  55. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So under the normal circumstances, there's some sort of a regulation, I assume, that requires them to have a work permit?

    24-097-23

  56. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. So and just trying to understand how that actual process worked, would it fall under the discretion that border agents have when they're enforcing these laws to just not ---

    24-098-01

  57. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- apply that ---

    24-098-06

  58. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But would I be correct in thinking that that would operate as an exercise of the border agent's discretion to simply not apply what would normally be the requirement for entry into the country?

    24-098-11

  59. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. But what I'm trying to get at is the operation of law that's happening here. It's a decision not to apply a law that normally exists ---

    24-098-21

  60. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- right?

    24-098-25

  61. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. Okay. Now we heard yesterday from Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki that one of the things that the RCMP tried to do in Coutts was to obtain tow trucks from the United States but some of them couldn't actually come and help because they were unvaccinated. Did the CBSA waive any of the vaccine requirements for tow truck drivers to come and help?

    24-098-28

  62. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Those are all my questions. Thank you for answering them.

    24-099-08

  63. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good evening. My name's Hatim Kheir. I'm counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. My answers will be focussed on you, Deputy Minister Keenan. So you're aware that the Windsor protest was cleared on the 13th of February; correct?

    24-256-17

  64. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And are you aware that the Windsor Police actually turned away tow trucks from the United States because by the 13th they were already satisfied that the company in Windsor was up to the task?

    24-256-26

  65. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. But you were aware that they were able to obtain tow trucks to do what they had to do?

    24-257-05

  66. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And with respect to Ottawa, we've heard from other witnesses that the OPP obtained tow trucks, so much so that the OPS Incident Commander felt that by February 13th they were good. You -- if I recall correctly, in earlier in your testimony you stated you weren't aware of that; right?

    24-257-08

  67. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Now, you stated that around the 10th going forward the Emergencies Act was being discussed; correct?

    24-257-18

  68. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And -- I mean, you'd agree with me that the Emergencies Act is an extraordinary power; right?

    24-257-23

  69. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And if alternatives are available, they should be, as a matter of policy, be used first; right?

    24-257-27

  70. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And to that effect, it would be important to be aware of what alternatives were available and workable?

    24-258-06

  71. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Whatever it is is sought to be done under the Act, if there's an alternative under existing law or that can be done without the use the Act, it would be important to be up-to-date on that; right?

    24-258-11

  72. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And -- so given that you -- your agency as a whole wasn't aware that the OPP had tow trucks, what steps were actually taken to get that information from the OPP, knowing that they were actually looking into the issue themselves?

    24-258-16

  73. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So my understanding is that there was a DMOC meeting on the 13th?

    24-259-04

  74. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Where the Emergencies Act was discussed?

    24-259-07

  75. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And -- so going into it, your role would be to provide Transport Canada's perspective on the use of those -- on emergency powers?

    24-259-10

  76. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So prior to going into that meeting, did someone from your office just give a call to a -- you know, a contact at the OPP to just see how the tow truck issue was going?

    24-259-14

  77. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    You stated that the task of obtaining tow trucks was seemingly an impossible task, but the OPP’s success in obtaining them shows that that wasn’t the case; right?

    24-260-07

  78. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So Supt. Bernier, when he testified here, he stated that on the 13th, the way he phrased it was: “As things materialized on the 13th, I was satisfied that we were good.” (As read) And that was in reference to a question about tow trucks. So that seems to suggest that at least they had been able to resolve that issue; right?

    24-260-15

  79. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So I want to change the topic slightly. So you’ve referenced illegal activity in your testimony, the presence of illegal activity. Leaving aside for a moment the border protests and blocking the border, which I grant, in terms of what was happening elsewhere, are you essentially referring to things like traffic violations, bylaw violations?

    24-260-28

  80. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And two of the Criminal Code -- the two ones that were up front, I believe, were mischief and intimidation, which, from my understanding, were being committed by obstructing the roadways?

    24-261-16

  81. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But the behaviour underlying, for example, potential mischief or intimidation is through obstructing a highway; right? And the use of that highway in the case of mischief?

    24-261-23

  82. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. But suffice it to say that all this behaviour was already illegal and there were already authorities there to prohibit that activity?

    24-262-02

  83. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And because of the existence of those illegal authorities, that’s why you wrote to Ms. Drouin saying that in your view, the gap was not legislative authority, but enforcement action; right?

    24-262-17

  84. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    If I could just ask one more question? Thank you, Commissioner. So that gap in enforcement action though, I mean, to the extent that the Windsor Police had obtained the tow trucks they needed on the 13th and were successful in clearing a protest, to the extent that the OPS Incident Commander on the 13th with respect to tow trucks was saying that he was satisfied that they were good, you’d agree that those are steps to then -- successful steps to closing that enforcement gap?

    24-262-24

  85. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well I’m out of time, so those are my questions. Thank you.

    24-263-12

  86. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon.

    25-146-07

  87. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I’m Hatim Kheir, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms and, given the subjects of my questions, my questions will be for you, Ms. Jacques. So, first of all, at the risk of stating the obvious, this was unlike anything else your office had to deal with; right?

    25-146-09

  88. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And so essentially what your office was tasked with was a way -- at first, anyways, was to look for ways to use existing legislation or regulations to respond to the situation at hand; right?

    25-146-17

  89. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. And ---

    25-146-23

  90. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- the need to respond arose from -- in response to the massive amount of money that was coming in to support the convoy; right?

    25-146-26

  91. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    M’hm. Now, we heard from Ms. Lich that the amount of donations took her by surprise. I imagine that they probably took you and your office by surprise as well; right?

    25-147-05

  92. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    M’hm. Tell me if you agree but I’d go so far as to say that the amount of people donating to the crowdfunding sites was shocking, right, especially as it was just coming in from the news?

    25-147-13

  93. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And now, essentially, in trying to see what your office could do, you found out there was a gap in the legislation and that you didn’t have the tools that you needed; right?

    25-147-21

  94. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And the legislation you’re referring to is the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act?

    25-148-02

  95. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And now, the problem wasn’t -- so, okay, you said that it doesn’t apply to crowdfunding sites, or it didn’t, but it does apply to banks; right?

    25-148-06

  96. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So once any money from the crowdfunding site got paid into a bank, it then be under the purview of that legislation; right?

    25-148-11

  97. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Yeah. And -- but even then, the Act still wasn’t used in response to any funds received by the banks; right?

    25-148-16

  98. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay, but ---

    25-148-23

  99. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But part of the reason that that Act wasn’t helpful, even for the funds being paid into the bank, was because this wasn’t terrorist financing?

    25-148-26

  100. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Well, let’s look at it from the perspective of what your office was working. So the emergency economic measures prohibited a whole list of activity that basically amounts to providing funds to designated persons; right?

    25-149-05

  101. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And “designated persons” were people who were engaging in an assembly that was prohibited by the Emergency Regulations?

    25-149-11

  102. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, specifically, under the Emergency Regulations, to participating in a certain kind of public assembly; right?

    25-149-16

  103. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So I mean this is identifying a new category of conduct that these -- that this kind of approach is now being applied to; right? This wasn’t conduct that was previously ---

    25-149-20

  104. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But then the economic order works based off of people who are identified in the regulations?

    25-149-27

  105. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So Section 1, I believe, of the Emergency Economic Measures identifies a designated person, right, and that’s someone who’s committing something identified in Sections 2 to 5 of the regulations?

    25-150-06

  106. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So I mean those -- the activity that’s identified in Sections 2 to 5 is not activity that was previously captured by the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act?

    25-150-11

  107. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Sorry?

    25-150-17

  108. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Basically, that the money- freezing provisions of the economic order ---

    25-150-20

  109. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- to refer to it as that, is now being applied to a new category of people that wasn’t previously captured by the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act.

    25-150-23

  110. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay, but what I’m trying to get at is that that category of designated people, there wasn’t an equivalent under the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act?

    25-151-06

  111. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Then -- now, in terms of what your office was doing prior to the use of the Emergencies Act, I imagine it might have been rather frustrating, then, in terms of the lack of tools available to respond to the situation?

    25-151-11

  112. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And at that time, you guys didn’t have the tools needed to stop the donations from coming in; right?

    25-151-19

  113. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right, but what -- my question for -- actually, so perhaps we can take a step back. I remember in the testimony in-chief it was identified that there were two goals to the Emergency Economic Order.

    25-152-04

  114. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    It was to -- the one was to cut off the flow of support to the protest, and then the other was to put a deterrent pressure on protesters, right?

    25-152-09

  115. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So in terms of that first goal, essentially, the way that support was coming in was through donations to crowdfunding sources or crypto currency wallets, for example?

    25-152-13

  116. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And I mean, we heard from previous testimony a couple of weeks ago that it basically costs thousands of dollars in fuel to get a big truck across the country and so that was one of the things that those donations were going to, right, fuel?

    25-152-18

  117. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right, and food and lodgings?

    25-152-25

  118. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And would you agree that essentially, the people who are making these donations, they're doing that because that’s their way of supporting the protest?

    25-152-28

  119. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. So these people couldn't go to Ottawa themselves and this was their way of participating in something that they believed in?

    25-153-04

  120. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So I mean, at the end of the day, really, what the goal here was a way to prevent Canadians from expressing their support in a protest against the policy they didn’t believe in?

    25-153-08

  121. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But yesterday, Mr. Ossowski and today Mr. Sabia both said that the activities were made illegal by the emergency measures, so up until that point, people were donating to support a ---

    25-153-16

  122. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    --- protest?

    25-153-21

  123. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But the collective ---

    25-153-25

  124. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Sure. But the collective -- would you agree that the collective function of those two regulations, I mean, the regulations and the order, was to take a protest, declare it illegal, and then prevent funds from coming in to support the protest?

    25-153-28

  125. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I see I'm out of time, so I will just wrap up with this one point, Ms. Jacques. At the end of the day, that first goal, that first goal of preventing funds from coming in to the protesters, it wasn’t even needed, was it, because the TD Bank had already put a hold on the funds that were held with them, correct?

    25-154-12

  126. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. But you are aware that the -- and it's identified in your organization's institutional report -- that the Ontario Attorney General had obtained a restraint order against any funds that were held by Ms. Lich, Mr. Garrah, or Mr. Dichter.

    25-154-23

  127. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Where are you getting the basis that the restraint order only applied in Ontario? It was made by the Superior Court, was it not?

    25-155-08

  128. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. I am over time so those are all my questions. Thank you.

    25-155-15

  129. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon. I’m Hatim Kheir, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. So to begin, Ms. Chayer, the national terrorist threat level has been at medium since October 2014; right?

    27-092-02

  130. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And it didn’t change during the protests?

    27-092-08

  131. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But it never left medium.

    27-092-14

  132. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you. Mr. Vigneault, the CSIS Act is the home statute of your organization, so is it fair to say that CSIS has expertise in applying the statute?

    27-092-16

  133. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And the -- so section 12 requires that CSIS investigate wherever there are reasonable grounds to suspect there’s a threat to the security of Canada as defined in section 2; right?

    27-092-21

  134. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And so that just -- it doesn’t require certainty. It doesn’t require reasonable grounds to believe. It’s reasonable -- it’s just reasonable suspicion; right?

    27-092-26

  135. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Yeah. Okay. And that’s an assessment that CSIS does day in and day out?

    27-093-04

  136. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Now, as someone whose father was monitored by your organization for over 10 years until it was determined an investigation wasn’t actually necessary, my personal experience is that it seems that your organization is very thorough. Is that a fair assessment, that CSIS is rigorous in executing its duties?

    27-093-08

  137. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. Because -- I mean, a big reason that your agency’s members have to be thorough is that if CSIS incorrectly determines something is not a threat and then chooses not to investigate, that could lead to harms down the road; right?

    27-093-17

  138. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. So you said something earlier and I was just trying to write it down as you said it, but something to the effect that CSIS mobilized whatever resources it could in order to try and understand the Freedom Convoy protest? Is that right?

    27-094-01

  139. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So you’ve talked a bit about the potential for a lone wolf threat. Now, am I correct in thinking that that’s not based off of particular intelligence; it’s more of a conclusion from general principles about this kind of an event?

    27-094-08

  140. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So there was -- you were just asked questions about the potential that people were present at the protests that CSIS was already monitoring. But basically, your organization was keeping tabs on them; right?

    27-094-24

  141. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Now but just to go back to the general point, the idea is that this is a large gathering. It could be used as an opportunity by someone to commit -- to engage in some sort of a threat. But that kind of threat is present at other big events like a G7 protest; right?

    27-095-08

  142. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you.

    27-095-27

  143. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you. Mr. Clerk, if we could please pull up COM00000935? And if you can go to the 8th page in the file. There's a three at the bottom though. It's how it's numbered. While that's being pulled up, we've heard a bit about how the definition for threats to the security of Canada doesn't include -- it doesn't include protest. Am I right in thinking that the basic idea here is that if there's a protest where one of the four factors aren't present you don't investigate, and if there's a protest where the four factors are present, you would investigate; right?

    27-096-11

  144. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. So the fact that it's a protest isn't a barrier to an investigation if one of these things is present?

    27-097-01

  145. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Mr. Vigneault, so looking -- let's look at -- we can look at (a) first. Based on the Service's assessment, there was no espionage or sabotage associated with the protest; correct?

    27-097-14

  146. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So the 2(a) definition wasn't met?

    27-097-19

  147. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And there was no foreign interference?

    27-097-22

  148. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So 2(b) wasn't met?

    27-098-01

  149. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Thank you. And there wasn't any serious violence associated with the protests?

    27-098-03

  150. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Or a credible threat of serious violence?

    27-098-06

  151. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. I'll be more specific then. There were no activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective within Canada; correct?

    27-098-15

  152. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So 2(c) wasn't met?

    27-098-23

  153. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And just quickly, there was no credible threat to overthrowing our established system of government?

    27-098-25

  154. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you. So not only was there no section 2 threat present, but there wasn't even reasonable grounds to suspect a section 2 threat was present?

    27-099-02

  155. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    If I could just have an indulgence to sort of hit the last point I've been working up to? I'll try to be very quick.

    27-099-15

  156. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you, Commissioner. So -- sorry, that threat that you're speaking about is with respect to individuals, but the protest itself did not pose a section 2 threat to the security of Canada?

    27-099-21

  157. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And yet you still advised the Prime Minister to invoke the Emergencies Act?

    27-099-28

  158. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And you did that not because you thought that there was -- the protest posed the threat to the security of Canada as defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act, but because you were reassured the threat to the security of Canada had a different meaning under the -- in the context of the Emergencies Act?

    27-100-03

  159. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And when you say that information that you had received, you're referring to your earlier comment that you were reassured that that definition had a broader meaning under the Emergencies Act?

    27-100-16

  160. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So just my final question.

    27-100-24

  161. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    The very last question. The -- this determination then that the Emergencies Act standard is a -- the definition is broader under the Emergencies Act than with respect to under the CSIS Act, that was not the product of you reading the Emergencies Act and developing your own assessment. That was something -- that was advice that you had received?

    27-100-28

  162. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you very much, and thank you for the indulgence, Mr. Commissioner.

    27-101-08

  163. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good afternoon, Minister.

    28-305-13

  164. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Yes, good evening. I’m Hatim Kheir. Counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. So the first document I’d like to take you to is the one that we’ve been talking about for a bit now. It’s SSM.NSC.CAN.00000625_Rel.0001. So while that’s being pulled up, this is the document relating to the First Ministers conference call, as it says right there. And if we could please go to page 2? Yes, there. Do you see under Premier Horgan’s third point, he said that: “Local law enforcement [was] able to manage.” Do you see that?

    28-305-15

  165. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And if we could please go to page 3? If we can go to Premier Kenney’s comments? So at the top of his first point, do you see there where he said that 15 days ago they had 1,000 trucks doing a rolling protest but then 900 went home, it was reduced to 100 hardcore who stayed behind. And then just a little bit beyond that, he says they’re down to a group of 40 “for the past several days.” Do you see that?

    28-306-02

  166. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And then do you also see where, between the redactions, Premier Horgan informed the Ministers at the meeting that they’ve: “…procured on market for equipment and have drivers in place. [So] [u]nless an unexpected surprise, should open Coutts border crossing today.” Do you see that?

    28-306-11

  167. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And then lastly, under the -- or lastly with respect to Premier Kenney, under the redactions, if we can just scroll down a little bit, it seems that Premier Kenney informed the First Ministers Meeting that at a previous meeting he had asked the Federal Government to stop the vaccine mandate for truckers. He said he doesn’t: “…understand the public health rationale, given the level of transmission. Truckers are isolated in cabs, can do rapid tests.” And that -- or he said he: “Thought it was an unnecessary provocation…” Premier Kenney informed the First Ministers Meeting of that?

    28-306-20

  168. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And then just proceeding on to page 5, Premier Stefanson for Manitoba, under her second point, informed the government that the RCMP were confident that they had the tools in place under provincial law needed at the Emerson Border Crossing and they were finalizing plans to open the border; correct?

    28-307-08

  169. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So all those premiers had informed the Federal Government that further powers were not needed then in their provinces?

    28-307-16

  170. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Thank you. The next -- I’m going to change course a little bit here. If we can please pull up SSM.CAN.00000094_Rel.0001? And while that’s coming up, we’re already heard about you had a discussion with Premier on February 10th. Correct?

    28-307-21

  171. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So if we can please just scroll down to the second email in the chain, which I take it was chronologically the first email? This is a read out of that conversation that you had with Premier Ford?

    28-307-28

  172. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And Mr. Clerk, can we please scroll down to the second page? I want to take you to the third -- sorry, the final paragraph in the summary? So it says there that the Premier had informed you that on the following Monday, which I take it would be February 14th, he will be announcing plans to relax public health measures. And he said in his view: “…the public is at a breaking point…” And then he refers to other jurisdictions taking these steps. Do you see that?

    28-308-09

  173. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And I take it that accords with your recollection of the call?

    28-308-21

  174. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. Now he refers to other jurisdictions taking steps. Was it your understanding that he was referring to Alberta, who had announced that they were implementing an accelerated removal of covid restrictions on February 8th?

    28-308-24

  175. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So given that they’re all talking amongst themselves, he might have actually been referring to Manitoba, which removed their -- made a similar announcement the following day, or Saskatchewan, which made an announcement on the same day Premier Ford had made that plan; right?

    28-309-10

  176. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. I want to hone in on one point that Premier Ford raised there. He referred to the public being at its breaking point. Would you agree that the Freedom Convoy protest was one expression of that sentiment?

    28-309-21

  177. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But you’d agree as a general principle that generally the goal of protestors is to be heard by their government on an issue that concerns them?

    28-310-15

  178. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, you'd agree that the -- that ability to protest is one of the reasons it's protected in our Charter is because it's important to that democratic process? It's the voice of -- you know, it's one of the ways that people can have a voice?

    28-310-26

  179. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So you agree that the provinces then that were responding to these protests by lifting their restrictions would be an example of protesters being successfully heard, right?

    28-311-06

  180. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    What they've said publicly, but if we look at Premier Ford's comments in this call, I grant you he says he has the support of Dr. Moore, but he says that the public is at a breaking point, and so he's going to put in a more aggressive schedule in Ontario. You didn’t take him to be referring to taking action in response to the protests?

    28-311-22

  181. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    He wasn’t crediting that decision but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t motivating it, right?

    28-312-14

  182. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, let's turn our attention to a different premier. I'm going to ask that we pull up PB.CAN.00001846. You've already seen this, I believe, or at least, a different version of this document. And Mr. Clerk, if we can please go to the last page? We're going to have to zoom in on the second screenshot. Perhaps if we could even just zoom in a little bit more? It's okay if the bottom gets cut off. Okay. So apologies for the quality of the screenshot. This is how we received it but do you see there at the top it says the date, Friday, February 11th?

    28-313-05

  183. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And then it says there, "Dominic." I take it that this was -- I think actually, it was already in response to Commission counsel, this is a message that you sent?

    28-313-17

  184. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So the message from Premier Kenney that you were forwarding, which has already been referred to, is that he said: "The trucker vax policy is obviously just dumb political theatre. Calling them Nazis hasn’t exactly helped." Right?

    28-313-26

  185. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Right. Now, my question for you, Minister, is was this sentiment ever relayed to Cabinet as a whole?

    28-314-07

  186. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Given -- and you know, we did see that Premier Kenney raised a similar statement, though perhaps a different language at the first ministers' meeting, did the government consider lifting restrictions as a way to hear what the protesters were asking for?

    28-314-21

  187. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I put it to you that Premier Kenney was right in that the removal of the exemption for truckers that led to this whole protest in the first place was just a political tactic.

    28-315-03

  188. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, what about referring to the protesters as Nazis? I put it to you that that was also a political tactic.

    28-315-17

  189. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Those are all the questions I have. Thank you, and I believe there is some time left over so I can pay back yesterday's indulgence with interest.

    28-315-23

  190. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Good evening, Minister.

    29-262-22

  191. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I’m Hatim Kheir, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. So right from the start of the pandemic while people like you and I had the opportunity to work from home, truckers still had to go out and keep the goods moving, right?

    29-262-24

  192. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And that’s why they were originally designated as essential service providers and they were exempted from the vaccine mandate, right?

    29-263-02

  193. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And truckers were one of them?

    29-263-20

  194. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And you note in your witness statement that the protests arose in response to the elimination of that designation; correct?

    29-263-23

  195. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    But you state in your interview summary, which you adopted -- it states that your understanding was that the protest arose in response to the elimination of that designation; right?

    29-264-01

  196. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay, can we please pull up JCF00000191. And while that’s being pulled up, just for the benefit of my friends, this is compilation of documents that are listed individually in the database. I’ll mention their IDs as we go through. I’m just using this to save a bit of time as we pull up documents. So, Minister, you can recognize that this a -- this appears to be a news release from the Province of Alberta; correct?

    29-264-09

  197. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And again for the record, this is individually in the database as JCF00000192. Now, do you see the title where it says, “Alberta takes steps to safely return to normal”?

    29-264-20

  198. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    With the date of February 8th just above that?

    29-264-25

  199. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And if we go down to page 2, Mr. Clerk -- Minister, do you see at the second paragraph, it says Alberta will remove the Restrictions Exemption Program and capacity limits under 500; right?

    29-264-28

  200. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And then, if we go to page 3, it sets out a schedule for other restrictions being lifted; right?

    29-265-06

  201. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And you -- I take it you were aware that this was happening at the time in February, at least in the broad strokes?

    29-265-13

  202. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. And then if we go to page 7 in this document which, for the record, in the database is JCF00000193, this is Manitoba news release dated February 11th; right?

    29-265-21

  203. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And the title says that Manitoba’s accelerating: "Manitoba accelerating plan to reduce Public Health restrictions based on improving Covid-19 situation."

    29-265-26

  204. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And again, were you aware of Manitoba’s action at the time?

    29-266-05

  205. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, you might start to notice a pattern I’m getting at, but perhaps we can go to page 9 in this document, Mr. Clerk, which, for the record, is JCF00000190. We see an Ontario announcement dated February 14th; right?

    29-266-10

  206. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And it announces that Ontario’s moving to its next phase of reopening on the 17th?

    29-266-15

  207. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And just for the sake of completion, lastly, if we just go to page 14 which, for the record, is JCF00000194, this is a Saskatchewan news release titled: "Living with Covid: Proof of vaccination no longer required; business verifier app discontinued." Correct?

    29-266-18

  208. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Okay. So you said you were aware the different jurisdictions were taking their own responses. What I’d suggest to you is that, given the timing of these measures all being taken by the different provinces, that they were being taken as a step by the provinces to respond to the concerns of protesters; would you agree with that?

    29-266-28

  209. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I’m suggesting that to you.

    29-267-08

  210. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, we heard yesterday that at the First Ministers’ Meeting relating to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, that Premier Kenney asked the federal government to lift the vaccine mandate as it applied to truckers crossing the border, and he mentioned that he had raised that previously. I don’t believe you were at that meeting but were you aware of his opinion?

    29-267-16

  211. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, we also saw a text from Premier Kenney which was forwarded to you by Minister LeBlanc where Premier Kenney called the trucker vaccine mandate “dumb political theatre”; do you remember receiving that?

    29-267-27

  212. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So again, giving these comments from Premier Kenney and the time of the provinces, you still maintain that none of this was in response to the protests?

    29-268-04

  213. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, given the motivation of the protesters, did the government consider resuming the exemption for truckers?

    29-268-10

  214. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    So the government should never change its policies in response to outcry from protesters?

    29-269-13

  215. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I'm going to suggest to you that the government couldn't reconsider the -- its removal of that exemption because it had already labelled the truckers and the protesters as White Supremacists and now had to maintain its opposition to anything associated with the protest.

    29-270-01

  216. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And one of the other things that the government did was invoke the Emergencies Act to deal with the protest, right?

    29-270-25

  217. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    One of the other things done in February was of course, the invocation of the Emergencies Act, while we're here?

    29-271-01

  218. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And I understand that the invocation of the Emergencies Act was not intended to infringe upon anyone's Charter rights, correct?

    29-271-05

  219. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    And whose -- so first of all, I understand that the Cabinet then would have turned its collective mind to that when discussing the invocation?

    29-271-10

  220. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Fair enough. Suffice it to say Cabinet's intention was to protect the Charter rights of Canadians?

    29-271-17

  221. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Did -- do you believe Cabinet protected the Charter rights of tow truck drivers?

    29-271-22

  222. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    You'd agree that tow truck drivers weren’t protesters themselves, aside from perhaps, individual cases?

    29-271-27

  223. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, so you said in your interview summary that some tow truck drivers refused to tow trucks out of sympathy with the protest, right?

    29-272-04

  224. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Well, I want to focus on the group that was objecting out of sympathy with the protest. You'd agree that they may have done so out of political and moral reasons?

    29-272-12

  225. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    You'd agree that the Emergency Measures regulation compelled tow truck drivers to serve a cause that was potentially contrary to their beliefs if they were refusing out of sympathy with the protest?

    29-272-18

  226. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    Minister, I'm out of time, but I'm just going to push back on that one answer you gave me, because I asked you if tow truck drivers who would have refused out of sympathy with the protest, as you highlighted in your interview statement, would have been compelled by the Emergencies Measure regulations to serve a cause that they did not agree with, and you responded by talking about the necessity of it. But I'm asking you, were those people compelled to serve a cause that they felt went against their conscience and their choice of association?

    29-273-06

  227. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    You'd like to think that, but certainly, the power created that opportunity, right?

    29-273-22

  228. Hatim Kheir, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

    I have no further questions. Thank you.

    29-273-26