Volume 2 (October 14, 2022)

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Religious document, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-09

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The Bible, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-12

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

My name is Victoria De La Ronde, and Victoria, V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A, and De La Ronde is three words, capital D-E, capital L-A, capital R-O-N-D-E.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to affirm, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

My full name is Zexi Li, spelled Z-E-X-I, last name, L-I.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-25

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I am a resident of Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I am a resident of Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-11

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I am retired.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I am a federal public servant.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-17

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-21

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-25

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The impact on my physical well-being was -- is quite extensive. I certainly during the experience had difficulty sleeping. I had an effect on my lungs and my throat because of the fumes and other smells, and I also have long-term effects.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-03

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The long-term effects are loss of hearing, loss of balance, some vertigo triggered by the sound of any horn now, triggered by certain music as the music was very loud, and a physical trigger when I get a smell of gas. Both my throat and lungs start to feel infected. I had also a phantom horn blowing as an experience for a number of weeks after.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-10

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Certainly, I attribute it to the very, very loud and constant noise from the horns, from the music, from the idling trucks. Even when the horns abated for a minute or two, the trucks idled. The trucks idled all night. And so it just was an assault on my hearing. And I can certainly tell now that there is a diminished function. I was able before to listen to media, for example, at a normal level of, say, four. Now I have to turn it to six.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-19

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I am near to Laurier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-02

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Well, certainly as I mentioned, it was such an experience of helplessness, especially during the event, where the horn blowing was so loud, and continuous. There was absolutely no place for me to go in my own unit, there was no place that had any less sound. I checked different rooms to see, well, maybe I can sleep on the floor here. There was no place that had a diminished sound. And if there was, it wasn't a space, like, a closet that was big enough to sleep in. There was just no escape to that. So I felt trapped and helpless during that. During the fireworks when the debris from the fireworks sprayed against my windows, I was just terrified that they would break any minute because I thought how could I do something, and what could I do at midnight, and who could come at midnight? And this is February. A broken window would have been pretty disastrous. So there was a lot of anxiety and discomfort.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-06

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Certainly, they have - - some have abated, yes, and I worked very hard for that in terms of -- on the mental wellbeing. It still -- I jump a lot when I hear a loud horn, and also when I get this smell of gas, definitely, I have a physical to that -- reaction, which is quite distressing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

During the time of the occupation - - I struggle to call it a protest because I know what a protest is, but it was incredibly difficult to get anything done because of the noise. There was a significant impact on things like focus and, you know, just even living day to day. Sleep deprivation was one of the first things that affected me personally and it also affected the animals that I live with as well. They seemed quite distressed. But for me personally, it was almost impossible to get a good night's sleep or a full night's sleep, if any, and if anything, it would be low quality and often interrupted by a sudden loud horn. And when it was quiet -- because there were brief periods where it was quiet, I was riddled with the anxiety that the horns were going to start again, and when the horns started again, it was left -- we were left wondering, you know, when they would stop, if they would ever stop again. And, yeah, it was just day-to-day living within my own home, living in fear of the sound and the intrusion really that they posed just being outside on our streets. Yeah, and further to that, it was unpleasant, to say the least, to exit my home, but it was something I did anyways as I didn't feel like it was -- the whole situation was wrong, and I felt almost a little bit of defiance, wanting to go outside and continue to live my life as best I could. And when I did, oftentimes, I was harassed for wearing a mask or being -- I was told to smile more under my mask, or, you know, just these kinds of comments that wouldn't have otherwise occurred and on a quiet, normal walk day-by-day. And I think what was one of the worst things was whenever you chose -- well, whenever I chose not to engage with the individuals that were occupying my neighbourhood, they would blast their horns at me with a smile on their faces, and then they would cheer in unison and almost take joy in the -- in my flinching, at my recoiling from the noise that I had been essentially experiencing non-stop for the entire duration of the events that occurred.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 14 02-014-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I live near Laurier Street and Centretown.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-16

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I work very hard to be independent and safe as a person with a disability. That objective is very important to me and every success in reaching that objective is coveted. So that was gone. I was trained to walk with the traffic, to walk with the flow, to negotiate and keep myself safe on the street. Of course, there was no traffic or no flow, no indicator, or if it's idling, I wasn't sure if these big vehicles overhanging a small sidewalk, if they decided to suddenly shift or change, if they could see me, so it was terrifying. The sound was so high that I could not hear any chimes or signals that we use at the ends of the street to tell us that it's safe to cross. That was just not available, so it was -- it just was not safe in my world. Also, in terms of independence, I do everything myself. I order my groceries. I order prescriptions. And but -- and I take public transportation or private transportation to go to meetings, to go to appointments, to do my daily business. So I had everything set up for myself as an independent person, living alone in downtown Ottawa, which provided such good services. But immediately, immediately, there was no taxi, no Uber, no Para Transpo, no grocery delivery, which I depended on, no taxi even to go and get some, no prescription delivery. Some way had to be figured out how to obtain all the necessities of life. The restrictions on my ability to get food was gone -- or was there, I -- so that was the impact in terms of my mobility, so I found myself trapped.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-22

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 16 02-016-24

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

That is a huge, huge assist for me to have safe mobility outside and for me to remain independent. Yes. Very critical are the sounds.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 16 02-016-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

There was absolutely no ability to negotiate my environment by using sound. The sounds of the horns, the sounds of the very, very loud music, the sounds of the people, with lots of voices coming from all different places, all was disconcerting and just completely eliminated my ability to negotiate my environment independently.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well it was the middle of winter, so really the first thing you noticed when you stepped outside was all of the snow, because services were unable to be rendered due to the occupation that was going on. And further to that, the snow was often coloured yellow or brown due to the public urination and defecation that took place gratuitously, often alongside of my building and just, quite literally, anywhere you walked, on every corner. And on these intersections, often times there were illegal bonfires and yeah, just trash burning right next to, you know, cans of fuel or near the same areas where these individuals would later set off fireworks. And I just remember feeling like it was such a surreal sight. It almost felt like you were in something like the purge because it -- although I didn’t often see direct acts of violence, it was -- there was a certain chaos on the streets and that feeling of chaos and rule breaking and law breaking gradually increased as things progressed. Yeah. Just I need a moment. Just sort of on my daily walks, you know, going to the gym, getting groceries, running errands, we often -- I often encountered individuals that were associated with the occupation and being -- you know, I’m a small Asian woman. I wore a mask most of the time due to the situation that was going on. It was -- like I said, it made you a target because it signaled to the people on our streets that we were not supportive of their cause and that we were not one of them. And in turn, as I mentioned before, they would increase their honking, and target their honking, and shout at us, shout at me, about how they were doing things for us and that they were fighting for our freedoms when, at the same time, I was unable to walk the streets feeling safe, really, because it wasn’t -- I didn’t feel safe. You know, my guard was up all the time and you had to watch every detail so carefully because these people would just approach me out of nowhere. And you didn’t -- you really didn’t know what they were going to do to you, and especially after I took action as an individual, it became different being a person walking on the streets. But I was never deterred from going outside. There was one -- only one moment where I was very, very afraid after my identity and name had been made public. And I had really covered myself up completely so that I was completely unrecognizable, to the point where my neighbours saw this and were very confused when I said hello to them. But after that, I think I realized there was almost a protection in the notoriety that I’d gained, and I don’t know, I felt like it was almost safer for me to walk the streets than the people that I lived around because of my position in the whole situation. With that being said, like, when it comes to my day-to-day life, I’m a really friendly person. I know all of my neighbours. Well, I can’t say all of them, you know, but I know a good few of them. And one of -- like, really, one of the -- my, like, daily joys is chit chatting with them in the elevator and seeing them on the street and saying hello. And what was truly, truly terrible about this time was seeing how people I knew were being affected, and knowing that for every one person that I knew that was going through a difficult time because of what was going on, there were 20 other people that I didn’t know that were going through the same thing. I knew people that were being pushed out of their homes because they were literally having mental breakdowns because of the stress and the noise and just the terror they felt from the situation. And I don’t think anyone or anything can discount those real feelings that people experienced and people had. And because of the action I took, I had encouraged a lot of my friends and neighbours to reach out to me and tell me their stories because it was so important for people to know that this was a serious thing that was going on, that people were being really terribly affected by it. One of my neighbours, she had just had a new born baby. Her name is Hazel. She was maybe six months old at this time, but I remember -- like, I’ve watched Hazel. She’s a really sweet baby. But my friend, she had told me that the noise was so terrible that sometimes just to get her to sleep, she had to take the baby out into the hallway, as far from the windows as possible, and bounce her in the hallways to try and get her to sleep before bringing her back into the apartment, where there was just the unrelenting horns. And other neighbours who told me for just, you know, a good two/three hours of nap, whatever they could get, they would go down to the parking lot and sleep in their car because it was the only place that they could escape to. And for me, second to the hallway, my bathroom was a little quieter, so I got some peace there as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I didn’t feel safe, but it’s hard to describe it as unsafe at the same time, because I was actively being so cognizant of my surroundings. I’m fast. I can move very fast. So, you know, I’m -- I was always ready to, you know, take myself out of a situation where something might happen. And, you know, a lot of the times, when they’re bouncing their trucks and their cars and -- I don’t know how to describe it other than, like, roaring at us, like, roaring at me with, like, these large giant vehicles. You know, it’s -- the idea was to move quick and get where we needed to go. And, you know, that was the intention, and that’s what you really had to do, I think, to stay safe, because when you didn’t take your time, they would always get to you. Like, not -- maybe not in the sense that you’re thinking, but they would try and come up to you and convince you that they were doing the right thing. And they would say to me -- like they -- I -- like, on more than one occasion, I would try and plead with them because, you know, there’s a certain desperation in being left in that kind of situation where the people that are supposed to help you weren’t helping you, and it was just ongoing for really -- it was going to be an unknown period of time, because really, every day I woke up and I hoped that it was over, and it never was. Sorry, I lost my train of thought a little there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 20 02-020-19

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. For two reasons. One, of course, the inability to negotiate those streets safely, because of lack of assisted -- well, lack of sound was the big thing. Also, being very concerned about what was underfoot, because there was debris on the streets, and it was winter, and icy, and slippery. And then always vigilant that someone was going to approach. On an occasion, there was a person who kept jumping in front of me. I was with someone else. I could only go out if someone came with me. And this person kept jumping in front and didn't allow me to pass. So when he was confronted, finally it stopped, but then sent messages, "Well, I love you anyway", he said. So that was a bit intimidating. And so in that way I didn't feel safe for those two reasons. I didn't have all the faculties I normally use; and secondly, that someone was going to approach me and either I was going to be accidentally hurt or I would -- or my big worries that I would bump into and hurt them too. So always vigilant and concerned. Does that mean I was feeling safe? No. No, I wasn't. I just thought if I didn't have to be out I would not go out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 21 02-021-18

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The Sunday after the - - that the vehicles came in and occupied so close to where I lived, the relentless noise was just so unbearable and I was so exhausted from it. And I called and begged a friend, "Could you just please -- I know you have to walk in and get me out, can you just please come and get me out?" And she did, and two days later, I had -- we both had COVID. There was so many people on the street, walking toward us, saying we don't have to wear those masks. There was just people around. Did I get it from them? I don't know, you know, but it meant that I was completely, completely stuck. I couldn't leave my home. I couldn't ask anybody to come and help. I couldn't go and stay with somebody else. I couldn't do anything. I had to be there to isolate for at least those 10 days. So once again, there was no place to go, no place to hide, it just went on and on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 22 02-022-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, the first action I took was really what I consider to be -- it was really important to me, I think. Because of the nature of the occupation and what was going around the media and the news, I thought it was really important for me to walk the streets and experience things firsthand. So I did. I did that almost every day, and I took pictures, and I took videos, and I remembered what I saw. And I spoke with people. I spoke with the people that were living on our streets legally, I spoke with the people that were stationed on intersections to protect us. And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, the police. And I just -- that was really the first action I took, just having my own account of things and really living through it myself. And like I said before, I really genuinely, like, love Ottawa, I love my neighbours, and they mean a lot to me, even if they are somewhat strangers in a sense. And because of this closeness I had, I heard a lot of their stories, and more so, I heard a lot of their frustrations. And as egg-throwing began to occur from my building, I felt that, you know, we really needed a medium to at least express what was happening to us so that we could feel, at the very least, heard and maybe diffuse some of the tensions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, you know, there were very large trucks parked everywhere, and in some of these instances they were parked right next to some high-rise condo buildings. And as a result, someone -- some people may have gotten some cartons of eggs, and you know, had their little retaliation in frustration because, really, what else could they do. And when that incident occurred, I remember the police actually came to my building to enquire about the egg-throwing, as a complaint had been made by the truckers. And I remember that I felt it as an affront, and that a lot of my neighbours felt it as an affront as well when they were investigating something like this in the light of everything that was happening to us, and what they were really ignoring in a lot of their statements and releases to the public. And as a result, I decided to organise a meeting with a number of residents in my building with some Ottawa Police community liaison officers, just so we could have a recorded account of what our experiences were, and really to, again, diffuse the tension, and really concretely say, "You know what's happening here. We are telling you this. This is our experience, and we really desperately need help because things are -- things have gone on too long." And the residents, honestly, they had wanted to fight back because they felt that nobody else was doing anything for them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 24 02-024-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Following that meeting, maybe twenty of my neighbours showed up, and more had sent their stories through messages or otherwise through me. And we had communicated everything to the officers so that, you know, again, it was recorded. And you know, all of us were there to attest to the fact that this happened, and they know what's going on, because we felt really and truly abandoned at that point in time. And after that, I ended up becoming the lead plaintiff in the class action, which brought my name and person to more public attention.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It was -- it's -- sometimes it's hard because that whole month, essentially, feels like a bit of a blur sometimes, but I do remember when it started on Friday night, it felt like in my memory that it never stopped, really.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. That's when they began to roll in. And I remember when that happened that was -- my feeling was that this is going to be a doozy, you know, bad things are coming. But yeah, it was constant. It was like, from day to night, even if it wasn't for every second, it was at least every other minute.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-27

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

When the trucks and other vehicles came into my area on the Friday evening, it was very loud. And on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I could sense, I could sense the excitement and the electricity in the air. And at the beginning, I thought I am so happy to be in a country where there is freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, but then that sentiment started to crumble as the loudness was all night and all that weekend. That's why I begged my friend, "Can you just come and take me out for a short time even so I don't have to hear this?" And the sounds continued constantly, until -- well, at night. And they may have been somewhat diminished because there was -- were crescendos all during the day, and toward the evening in particular, and then all night. When the injunction was put in place, then it abated a bit between 11 o'clock at night, and then 7 o'clock, I could hear activity out on the street. I could hear a huge megaphone starting to advise, it seemed to me, a rolling thunder of horn-blowing starting at 7:30 in the morning, and then the loud, loud music would, which you could hear every word of the music they were -- the songs that were being sung. So your question in terms of how loud it was, how continuous it was. It was continuous. There was an abatement of horn blowing in such a crescendo between those hours, 11:00 at night and 7:00 in the morning. But the idling continued under my window, just with these huge vehicles, the sound of the idling echoing down in the canyon of our buildings all night. So there was no respite from an assault on hearing. I tried to wear earplugs, but they kept falling out, and then I worried if I wore an earplug I wouldn’t be able to hear the smoke alarm, I wouldn’t be able to hear if somebody was pounding on my door to evacuate because there was something -- a fire or an explosion outside our door. So I was caught in between. And of course, I slept with a mask on because of the -- because trying to abate the smell of the diesel and the other smells that were coming up and in through the vents.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 26 02-026-09

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. Close would be Laurier and Kent.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-12

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-15

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

For myself --

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-25

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

-- it was beyond a lawnmower.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-27

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The Intersection I live near would be Laurier Avenue West and Bank Street.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, however, I would like to note that there were points in time where, like Ms. De La Ronde said, there were crescendos, and during those crescendos in particular, there was a roving train horn attached to a truck and when that truck was in our area, I would express that it was much louder and much more disruptive than the lawn mower.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that does accord this sounds over always present in my building, in my unit. Except, there's some sounds there -- not there, that were even louder and more unnerving. When you hear this, and it's 24 hours it is just -- it’s damaging. It's damaging to the nerves, it's damaging to my health and well-being, so it’s -- it’s shocking. So it does accord, but there was more. There were times when it was more than this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would agree with that. I would note that many of the trucks in my vicinity had what we would describe as aftermarket horns, where the horns attached to the vehicle were much, much, louder than a standard vehicle would have, and several of these trucks were idled very close to where I lived and resulted in a much more deafening sound.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

So this photo was taken on the corner of Kent and Laurier. I took the photo because I thought that the removing of the tires was a very clear message from the occupiers that they were here to stay. Now, this vehicle in particular was removed sometime later, but I believe this was near the beginning of the occupation, perhaps around February 3rd.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 31 02-031-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I don’t remember the exact date, it was either February 17th or 18th, if I‘m not mistaken. This morning, this was after the injunction date, the occupiers on Kent Street, it was a very strong encampment, I would describe it as, and they were very much rooted in their position. During the injunction period there was a -- I believe this was like a Friday or Saturday morning, but they had collectively blown their horns at about 6:59 a.m. and obviously it awoke myself and many other residents in the area. At this point we had been, what, 20 days into the occupation, and I for one, was desperate -- not quite defeated -- but also very angry. And I think at that point the desperation was enough where I stood on the corner of Laurier and Kent, I left my home at about 7:30 and I stayed there for about 30 minutes to an hour just them to blow their horns, because I was frustrated and I wanted there to be evidence, first hand evidence, of them define the injection order, them breaking the laws they were breaking, and I wanted to know for myself who exactly was there, so that nobody could say otherwise. And I decided to take photos of the vehicles that were there, collect their information, and that was something that made them very upset as, really, it was in open, active defiance.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 31 02-031-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, it is.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

At this time, it was. I also on numerous occasions witnessed trucks driving along the sidewalks as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to quickly note that in this image, the vehicle next to the white truck, the red truck, on this same day, due to my taking pictures, the man in the red truck was inside of his vehicle and he actually had backed his vehicle into me. I moved out of the way, but I presume it was for taking pictures of his license plate and what was in his vehicle. I also captured video of -- as I approached the vehicle after he had sort of backed into me. I didn't want him to be able to claim that it wasn't him in the vehicle, so I captured the driver in the video as well, and while I did so, he aggressively opened his door at me in the car. And at that point, all of the trucks in the area began blaring their horns at me. And there was another individual who had exited his vehicle and decided to start shouting at me, giving me the finger, and say that the man in the truck hadn't done anything, after I had called the police. He was yelling in the streets that the truck hadn't moved in over an hour, which I had direct video evidence proving that it was not true. So it just really showed to me personally that these people were willing to do anything and say anything to help each other get away with anything.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-21

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

You know, I think you've done a very good job. Thank you very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 33 02-033-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm now 22.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm a data analyst.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, I personally don't feel there's -- I -- the actions I took was in my capacity as an individual citizen of Ottawa and not related to my work or any other activities.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was a data analyst with Shared Services Canada.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm not sure.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Could you repeat the dates, please?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe it was a Friday, so whichever date that Friday fell on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Mr. Champ had reached out to me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is untrue.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Emilie Taman who works with Paul Champ.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It was as a result of the meeting I had organized with the Ottawa Police. One of my fellow residents and neighbour was a lawyer who was aware of the action being taken.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, just in reference to the lack of laws that were in place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would not say that the protest or occupation provided a purge opportunity, but the -- what I witnessed on the streets day-to-day was very reminiscent of that kind of lawless world where open fires were being held, laws were being broken in front of police officers who were not doing anything to combat them, and just a general sense and lack of disregard for public areas and, really, the people that live there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe the opportunity was there and it was an environment where these people who have been illegally occupying our streets felt that they had the -- I don't know if this is the right word, they had the ability to do anything they wanted as they were not privy to the regulations that the rest of us members of society were. And I came to this conclusion in -- through my witnessing of these crimes being committed, because really, they were crimes, and even speaking with these individuals directly who had informed me that they were not going to face any consequences because they were protected.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct, but I was not referencing the entirety of the purge. It was a purge-like scenario where laws were not enforced specifically.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, because laws were not being enforced.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not make that statement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The injunction was obtained on -- approved by the Court on the 7th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, that is not correct. Two days prior to the injunction being put in place, there was a deferral of the trial to that date where the injunction was eventually approved.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Application. Sorry, I’m not well versed in law. I’m not a law student.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

For a brief period shortly after the injunction, there was a clear silence from the noise that was previously constant. Shortly thereafter, there was a gradual ramp up in the honking again, but, however, it was more strategic and intermittent than it was previously, whereas it was constant.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I just want to clarify the statement in reference, is that ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

As far as I was aware, yes. To the best of my ability.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

To the best of my recollection, correct. That was the immediate aftermath.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was working from home, though I struggled to maintain productivity due to the disturbances that were taking place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That would be correct. There was a leave code that was applied for government employees that were affected by the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Could you clarify to the question, please?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I had started a new position on January 10th with Shared Services Canada. Prior to that, I was employed working from home with another agency.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was employed with the Canada Revenue Agency.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I may have said that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There was only the, I would describe it as intimidation with a truck.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not make that statement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I’m sorry?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Not inside of any buildings, no. Just outside.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not say that. I said they were lighting fires outside of buildings, as in the bonfires that were all over the city.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I can’t comment to their intentions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I just saw the fires. Open fires.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

As far as I know, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

My understanding is that he was employed in the ByWard Market.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to clarify that the injunction was granted on the 7th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I am not aware of that information.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Now I do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well it was a lot of events and I think it was mentioned that McKenney was out doing this. However, I was not directly involved, other than agreeing to offer this agreement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is not correct. I’m -- I’ve stated that that was not true previously as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would also like to clarify that the Leaders Summit has not occurred.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's true.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Before you continue, would it be all right to clarify my relationship with Joel Harden and Catherine McKenney? No? Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-03

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was born in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, but grew up in Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, and you ask women their ages so ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-19

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

They can do the math.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-24

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

No, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-05

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

That's right, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-09

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

1983.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-12

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-18

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was a member of good standing with the Ontario bar and the New York bar of -- but recently, I resigned my membership from the Ontario bar.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-22

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I'm still active as the non -- a retired member of the New York bar, but I'm still licensed.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-26

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-04

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

It was more, like, 25 years. I'm just -- just let me recorrect that. It was from 1990, September 1990 to April 2011.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-08

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-18

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-21

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-24

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

It could, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

No, I was working on the policy side of the picture. I was not a just lawyer with the Government of Canada. I was an executive.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-03

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I had a phone call from the Commission, Commission solicitor asking my permission to, first of all, have a conversation about my experience and then asking my permission if my name could be put forward as a potential witness in this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-10

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Thank you. You too.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I don't recall exactly, but I would say perhaps some of it had subsided, but it was still present. If anything, it was more underlying and more desperate, in a sense.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe it was the 17th, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Given my experience personally, I felt that was the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Following the injunction, I would say the level of threats increased due to the public attention that had been placed on myself and the situation. Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The majority of the threats were through the internet, and on certain things; however, I was receiving calls and messages to my personal devices. However, the nature of these messages, voicemails and calls did not seem serious enough for me to make a official report. There was only one instance where there was a serious threat received by the RCMP that had been forwarded to the Ottawa Police that was investigated.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, they were.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Me, myself.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Through decibel measuring devices downloaded onto my phone. These devices -- these applications had been proved -- they had been researched to be comparable to actual physical decibel testing devices.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Off the top of my head, I believe one was called decibel X or something along those lines.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There was two, you know, I believe it was called Decibel X; however, it's been some time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The decibel readings, from my memory, ranged from approximately 75 decibels to at times 85 or 90.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Those people were the Ottawa Police and Bylaw Services.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They were, from my understanding as a resident, citizen, and taxpayer, they were supposed to be supporting us and making sure us, as the public and community, feel safe and that the laws are upheld.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There were issues with noise, idling, parking, et cetera. Illegal fireworks, illegal fires, public urination, public defecation, harassment on the streets, soup kitchens.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

A lot of the time, I had -- I hadn't spoken to officers directly. I had made calls to Bylaw specifically detailing the incidences that were occurring, and on one such occasion I described fireworks in the vicinity of gasoline and other open fires, as well as things like alcohol and drugs. So that to me presented a safety issue, and therefore I reported it. However, as a result of my report nothing came to -- nothing came to it, and I was informed that the officers on the ground were to keep things safe despite the reality of the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would say that I can't speak to exactly why it occurred, but I am -- I would feel that enforcement would be a contributing factor.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Thirty years.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I've observed other protests in Downtown Ottawa, but closer to Parliament Hill. They did not come to where I was living. Never.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-03

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was concerned because there was the smell, and I was informed as well about gas spills on the street, that there was open bonfires, that they were roasting food out a few metres from my building, so there was such a potential for a fire, a huge fire, and an explosion. So I was concerned that if I could actually get those earplugs to work then I wouldn't hear if my smoke alarm went off or if people were pounding on my door to say "evacuate, evacuate".

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-10

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

It was very strong in my apartment. It permeated drapes, blinds, bedding, carpet. It had a -- the whole unit had a dull, gaseous odour about it.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-23

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, yes. I got -- eventually worked toward getting them cleaned, all of them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Anytime I heard a honk of a horn, and particularly of a large vehicle horn, I could feel it sort of ripple through my body, and I would feel that my nerves were still frayed.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-06

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Very much like that. That -- I kept hearing them, like phantom horns, I kept hearing them in my head. I also had phantom smells too.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-13

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

They're not, they're not there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I had not. Perhaps in passing on the street, but nothing -- not -- they didn't know who I was.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I was.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

After, I did observe a Facebook Live video from one of the organisers who had ordered the truckers in general to stop the horns due to the injunction being put in place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. It was a Facebook Live video I believe from Chris Barber, if I'm not mistaken, though I can't be sure as to which organiser specifically it was, but they had been laughing about our lack of sleep and something about giving us a break from all the noise.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They had said that they -- I remember they were saying, like, "stop the horns, stop the noise."

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. Shortly after the video the horns had subsided. And for -- it was like -- like just sort of thinking back to it, like it's hard to not be a little dramatic, but it really was like -- it was like this respite that had came, and it was significant the silence that was present for some time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I do recall after the first video, I don't recall exactly when this occurred, but the first video I believe that the organiser had believed that -- it's hard to say because it's -- there was a just words being spilled, but there was something about that we, not necessarily myself or the lawyers involved, or -- it was a general reference I think to, like, the City or the Government or just the opposition, really, that they were going to give into some demands, but after some time had passed, they had realised that no demands were being given, and to, like -- I don't remember the exact words, but there was a call to action to, like, just let 'er rip.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The horns.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I did notice that there were some -- I remember very distinctly there were some confused horns, because really it sounds sort of crazy to attribute these kinds of descriptions to horns. But whereas before they were sure I think, and like resounding, these were confused, almost as if, do I do it, do I not do it, do I do it, do I not do it? There was a little bit more hesitation in the honking.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I had measured the -- in reference to the decibel levels I had described, it was inside of my home, though I had taken some on the streets where it was much louder, closer to 100 or more.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It is above a 10th floor.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They definitely varied depending on the location that you went. There were quite a few of them, some were small and just for warmth, others were larger for -- I think there was a pig, like a whole pig being roasted, and I think it was under a fire, but I can't be certain about that. But there was that and there were several bonfires down Wellington Street, often times on corners in intersections where there were people huddled around it, often accompanied by signs and flags,

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I felt that they were managing my personal safety correctly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I did not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Thank you, Commissioner.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Affirm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Kevin McHale, K-e-v-i-n M-c-h- a-l-e.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I wish to affirm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Nathalie Carrier, N-a-t-h- a-l-i-e C-a-r-r-i-e-r.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I just want to clarify, I will testify in English though. Sorry, sometimes I switch without knowing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Oui, merci.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I’m Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director of the Vanier BIA, which is the Business Improvement Area.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Kevin McHale, I’m Executive Director of the Spark Street BIA and Mall Authority.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct, that’s the five blocks of the pedestrian promenade.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It covers three main streets, Beechwood, Montreal Road, and MacArthur from roughly the river to Saint-Laurent, with the exception of Beechwood that ends when Havelock begins.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Both Kevin and I sat on daily meetings, and we also sit on the board of COBIA which is the Coalition of BIAs, so we do sometimes get communications from others. I have family and friends that own businesses on Bank Street for example, and some of my businesses on Montreal Road or Beechwood, would own other franchises in others.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Generally aware. I would say intimately aware since January.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That’s right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In essence, both parking lots were being used at one point, so both the Hampton Inn one and the one that belongs to the city. They are joined together, but there are two separate parking lots.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It depends who you ask and what's being done. Sometimes we're considered downtown because we have more urban issues that are, you know, homelessness, or you know, drug related issues, things of that sort. But for the case of an event that happens downtown, we would be considered slightly on the outskirts, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was, just by nature of being the closest BIA to them, at one point because things were escalating and there was a lot of complaints being made, I did begin to liaise with a few businesses there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was the Production Manager for Ottawa 2017, so I did large scale public events like La Machine, Crashed Ice, Kontinuum Underground, and you know pre to LRT being created, Picnic on the Bridge, those kinds of things. I have 20 years experience in events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would say that be more unofficially and anecdotally, because of the knowledge that I carry with me, there are things that were brought to this table that were flagrant to me based on the knowledge that I have as - - previously, as a large-scale event planner.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct. So things that we saw that would be event-like during the occupation or protests referred to my previous roles.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And my current roles. We do events at the BIA as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would say that we received very little information prior to. In fact, it was mostly the BIA in ByWard that started requesting from our councillor. So to be clear, Councillor Fleury has three BIAs within his ward, ByWard, Rideau, and Vanier. And so ByWard and Rideau had started getting increasingly aware of what was happening. We had been speaking with Bank Street and Spark Street as OCOBIA, and they requested from Councillor Fleury to amass stakeholders so that we could better prepare for the weekend ahead. This was the week leading in, obviously, the week of the 27th/28th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I would say it was very minimal. Spark Street experiences a number of activations and protests and marches and such throughout the years because of our proximity to the hill. So communication was quite minimal. I think it was only really -- we started to receive some because some other BIAs and OCOBIA, which is the Ottawa Coalition of BIAs, starting making direct requests, as we were seeing this event starting to unfold, being bigger than what we typically experience in downtown Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 72 02-072-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 72 02-072-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. The fact that we actually received it was kind of -- I mean, to receive something, again, because I think we were demanding some more input and support as to what we’d -- what we needed to inform our members of. And this is again -- the information provided isn’t really any different than what we would receive for any other activation or any other event in the downtown core space. So it really didn’t meet what we kind of expected from a level of robustness.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We expected to see a bit of a game plan as to what the actions were going to be to deal with the mass of vehicles that were expecting in the downtown core, perhaps similar to what we see during -- when road closures and such are put into place for an event like Canada Day, where vehicles aren’t allowed in the core for the day, and barriers or city vehicles are used to limit access to certain parts of the downtown core. So really what we wanted to see was an action plan of how police and officials were going to manage the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I agree. I think we were looking for the plans that we normally get and receive or are shared with us leading into Canada Day weekend, or Winterlude, or those kinds of things. So in this particular case, we were expecting Canada Day type closures. And in the case of Vanier, that would only pertain to us as it pertains to any overflow traffic that often or sometimes gets directed to Coventry or would end up on Montreal Road or Rideau.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

We requested from the councillor to have a briefing with Services, which we got. And when that briefing happened, we were surprised to see that that was not this posture that OPS and City were taking, meaning the -- you know, the closing down of the streets in the downtown core to accommodate the level of what we were -- I was seeing on social media was heading our way.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To me, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- specifically, so ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Ahead of the convoy, it was a protest that was slightly unusual because of the nature of the trucks; right? Normally when we have protests, it’s -- there’s busses that arrive and drop off people and then an event happens and they get back on busses and leave. In this case, the trucks were the protestors in many ways. So there was some level that it was going to be complex because of the trucks. But for the most part, we were told, you know, by the end of the weekend, everything should be good and everyone will likely be gone.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I would agree.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was a lack of information for something that we deemed and I deemed having done large scale events on that very particular space. You know, La Machine ran from ByWard all the way to the museum and back. There was actually a Saturday night event that was here. We spent two years planning that because of the sheer level of people and the machines themselves were big. This was -- and so there was really no information, in our opinion, or it didn’t seem to be -- it didn’t seem to be taken as seriously as other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think that there was an unpredictability about this event. There was reference to there being multiple organizers. But I don’t think we were given much more. Not to my knowledge, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- or my recollection.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, I would -- the feeling I have when I read a line like this, probably pre-convoy protest, would be that this is just kind of an open-ended protect yourself, saying that, you know, if some of the organizers decide to stay, we don’t know exactly. I mean, it’s not uncommon to see this kind of language, I think, in kind of an announcement like this. But again, our typical experience with other protests in the area are that people come, they protest, and they leave in a reasonable manner and where, at the time, when they say they will.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

That’s the feeling I had going into that weekend, yes, with the communication that we had received. Again, it seemed fairly low key from what we were receiving. My personal feeling was it was a little bit similar to the farmer’s protests that we had a number of years ago in the Ottawa core where a group of farmers came through and brought in tractors and other heavy equipment and were here for a day or so and then left. So it was kind of my feeling of it, was, again, having been on Spark Street for nine years and working in the core for 20, that this would be a loud boisterous weekend event and that by Monday morning I’d be trying to figure out how to clean up my street, which wasn’t the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct. Yes. It’s my own assessment. Again, that’s taking that assessment based upon the information we were provided.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I feel like at some point all the BIAs there, there were five of us, did. I remember my colleague Kalin from ByWard certainly, you know, making mention to why this wasn’t happening or why couldn’t we block streets like we do often for protestor events, why couldn’t we prevent access to our core. There was no real answer to that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I remember Chief Sloly saying publicly, and not specifically to our daily briefings, but publicly saying things to the order of “I can’t stop trucks from driving in the City of Ottawa. I can’t stop vehicles from driving in the City of Ottawa,” which was baffling to me personally as an events person, because we had and we do often for events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, I -- the response would be what Nathalie alluded to, which is that basically they didn't have the rights to stop the vehicles from coming in.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, nothing written.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It evolved. So in the beginning, it was basically the three BIAs we added in, the three BIAs being Rideau, Byward and Vanier. We added in Bank Street and Sparks. And there was bylaw, traffic, so a series of city services, bylaw, traffic, police, OPS, our NRTs, which is our neighbourhood resource team members, which is a police term for police that are dedicated to specific problematic areas, for lack of a better term, like Byward and Vanier and other areas. And, you know, there was -- I recall -- it was evolving. So depending on the day, depending on what was happening and as the situation was evolving, people would come in and out of these meetings daily based on availability or -- I mean, there's certainly city management services. ACOBIA was there, so Michelle, the executive director of ACOBIA.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I -- yeah, I don't know.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-10

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I can't recall. I don't believe the mayor participated on one of these calls. I believe someone from the staff was on the call a couple times. Really, on the political side, the call was driven by Matt Fleury, councillor for Vanier. And he and his staff hosted the call every day and there'd be mixing in. Councillor McKenney was on the call a couple of times. Who else?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I remember this ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Mona Fortier, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I'm so sorry, go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, no. The MP for Vanier, Mona Fortier, was on the call as well, yeah. Joel Harden was on the call as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Later in -- when the occupation became the occupation and not a protest, the call of roughly 20 people was 70 people at times daily. So there were MPPs, MPs that would join in on those calls. But for the most part, the senior city person in -- to my recollection was Kim Ayotte, who was Emergency Services, so he was the person sort of speaking on behalf of fire, paramedics and obviously police, when police wasn't on the call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was going to say, oftentimes, the police representatives we had on the call are not people that I would consider senior OPS that I would have seen in other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have a recollection of Chief Sloly joining the first week, so between the first and second weekends, there -- I don't recall what day exactly, but there was one call that he was on with us.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, he was on one or two calls at the very beginning, and then as the situation continued, he was no longer on the call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, generally, police representation was Constable Lemay, who was the community officer ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

--- was the primary police contact on the phone call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And there was -- and I apologize. I do not remember her name, but I believe she was the deputy who came once or twice on the call as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Chris Ferguson.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This is difficult because these are people we work with. These are people that we rely on. I remember being scared personally. I was -- because I remember the Chief saying at one point, "You guys are scared. I get it. I'm scared too." And I thought if the Chief of Police is scared, something much bigger is happening here than a protest, and that personally scared me, and I think a lot of us on that call were shaken. There was also a sense that week that things were starting to get shaken up. You know, there was instability. We -- I sensed a sense of defensiveness, you know. Everyone was caught off guard, I think, everyone. I don't think any of us could have dreamed that this event, that we -- in our biggest thinking would equate to Canada Day, sort of, you know, the infractions that happen, the closures that happen, the people that come in, the disturbances it creates, the loud noise, the fireworks. None of us I think could have understood that that would actually get so much bigger.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, no. Despite us asking vehemently daily. There was no ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So there -- things that pertain to businesses that are very specific in events like this, or -- and I'm sorry, I keep calling it an event. That's my knowledge. So things like will they have access to loading zones, how can deliveries happen, can staff get in, you know, where will the bus routes be, what -- and because there was so much fluidity to what was happening, there was no sense that the plan today was going to be the next -- the plan the next day. There was -- you know, there was some fluidity to it, but mostly, those are the things we needed to know. Can staff take OC Transpo and get from Vanier to their job at the Rideau Centre? Will the Rideau Centre be safe? You know, those are the things that pertain to businesses. Like, can we have -- can they have deliveries picked up? And can they still do click and collect? And can Uber Eats and Skip the Dishes get through? And to give context to it, though we're five kilometres away in Vanier from the downtown core, Uber Eats was not servicing. They were not servicing. So unlike what could be said to have happened to businesses during COVID, businesses were completely crippled, and that has to be understood by this Commission, because there were no deliveries. There was no loading zone. There was no Uber Eats. There was no clients in the stores. A lot of the protesters that arrived did support businesses and I'm not going to say that they didn't. They supported some businesses, but there was a lot of chaos. There was a lot of businesses that were deeply affected by protesters. And then there was this sense -- there was a lawlessness, if I can speak specifically to restaurants, which are often the most flexible of all of our businesses; right? They adapt very quickly. They can figure out things very quickly. But restaurants often had catering tables organized by protesters right outside their doors offering free hotdogs, free chocolates, free, you know, to everyone. Meanwhile, the business that was trying to stay open and survive was not getting any business.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 83 02-083-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 84 02-084-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I think, again, it comes down to having been on Sparks Street for over nine years now and having a very veteran merchant mix. There wasn't initially going into it necessarily a lot of concern. So I, you know, again, having a bit more -- you know, dealing with protests and activation through the core all the time, again, I was -- as I said earlier, I felt that this was going to be large and boisterous, but not necessarily -- not obviously the three-week event that it was. So we -- and again, Sparks Street, we tend to be a little self-sufficient. So we were very active on social media, making sure we were getting information from OPS and bylaw, as we were directed to through Coms, and which was said the fastest way to get our information oftentimes was Twitter. And so Catherine did reach out to make sure that we had gotten what we had. And so again, yeah, it was very much I think we're good. The members are aware. Again, my members go into an event like this any other protest, not thinking about closing their doors, not really worried about -- concerned about staff. At events, as we always say -- I always say on Sparks Street, people march up to Parliament Hill determined to get their message out, to tell people about what they need -- what they think that needs to be told and say their piece and they leave satisfied and happy that they've accomplished what they set out to do, and then they end up visiting our coffeeshops and our restaurants, et cetera. It was only kind of into Saturday night, Sunday where we realised this was a different -- there was a different energy in the crowd, if I can use that term, and that's when I get a lot of my businesses, who on the Saturday were open or trying to open. Regulations in Ontario were starting to be lifted and they're being ready to be lifted on the Monday, on the 31st, and so our businesses were kind of actually getting ready for the provinces to reopened and to welcome customers back inside their businesses after a very long January, or yeah, January/December. So again, I wasn't overly concerned. There was a very casual nature to the conversation, and that's kind of how I speak and how I flow.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 84 02-084-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

In hindsight, yeah. I mean, as I say, I was -- here, I -- you know, I talked with staff. Along Sparks Street, we have bollards that can be installed. We use them in the spring, summer, fall to control traffic. They're out right now on the street if you're out there today. Wintertime we have to remove them for snow operations. So we had actually taken them out back in November and so the street was open. And again, it was at that point where at the same time we were just sitting there say, "Okay, do you think we should put them in?" You know, we started seeing vehicles coming in, we didn't want them on the street for what we thought was just the weekend. So my event supervisor and I made the decision, you know, we -- you know, we had to dig out the holes, and they're all full of snow and ice, and dig them out and vacuum them out and we put the posts in for the weekend. And I think it was kind of a fortunate decision for us to do that because I feel like the street would have ended up as kind of a secondary holding spot for vehicles and other activities.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 85 02-085-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. We had reached out to Constable Sean Kay, who we had a conversation with a couple of months ago for another activation. The constable's job is to liaise with marches and activations like that. So we had reached out to Sean to say "Do you think we should do that? Is it going to interfere with Operations?" Again, having a knowledge of the street, in the past when there have been activations or incidents, Sparks Street can sometimes become a holding spot for, or just a cut through for police services or other entities, Operations and such. So we just did a reach out saying, "Is this going to interfere in any of your planning or any Operations?" And he said, "No, nothing, so just keep -- just let us know when it's done." So we did that. Later, at the beginning of the week, I want to say about February 3rd or so, we had to -- we reached -- or 2nd, 2nd or 3rd, we reached back out to let him we were taking them out. They had done their job, they kept the vehicles off the street. The feeling was there was two things happening then. I felt that the vehicles couldn't move anymore, they were kind of jammed into the spaces, and we had snow falling, and so we had to pull them out so that snow clearing could happen. What ended up happening was there was no snow operations for the next three weeks, so you had a nice layer of snow and ice on Sparks Street that -- for the remaining of the convoy.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 86 02-086-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We ended up removing them. And what we realised from observing the crowd, the vehicles and everyone around us, and the way the groups were operating is we felt Sparks Street was okay without them in at that point because we didn't think anything large could get in anymore. There was a lane for fire and such, but that was about it, and that was being respected by everyone. So -- and it would have been -- again, these were mechanical, all -- they're not all automated, it's not a heat system, it's a pretty simple system, but by that time to get -- to put them back in was going to be very difficult after a snow event.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We had not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Because the businesses were right next door to the encampment. So to put it in context, there is a hotel, a parking lot for the hotel, a parking lot for the stadium, the stadium, and then there is a Canadian Tire, Best Buy, and a Starbucks that are right there. There is also, just at the corner of Lola, there is a veterinarian and emergency hospital for animals, and also, one of our organisations that we liaise with a lot, the Minwaashin Lodge, was there as well. So there is organisations that are racialized that are in and around that area, so in my expertise as being a business relations person, I started just checking in on them to see if they were okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Usually once a weekend. The weekends were definitely the worst. But Canadian Tire, we - - I must've spoken to them five or six times, different people at each time. Sometimes it was the person, the customer service person; sometimes it a manager on duty or another. The Starbucks, I would be going in to get a coffee, because I spent a lot of time at Coventry, and anecdotally I would ask questions and spoke to the manager once, I think.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right. So in the beginning, it was, you know, they were selling a lot of stuff. They were selling gas tanks, and they were selling rope, and you know, all the type of things that I think you would buy if you were camping out. And they also reported that large groups of protestors, you know, by large I probably mean 3 to 10, would come in at once and then do the sort of thing that was, you know, that is now sort of cliché, but would go up to the workers with masks on and say, "Why are you wearing a mask? Why are you doing this?" They would disrupt the sort of general, you know, the store, they would disrupt the store. And there was also evidence or not evidence, sorry, there was things that were relayed to me that they -- the protestors had been putting up posters throughout the store that looked like public health posters, but saying things like, "masks are stupid, or masks aren't needed", or you know, so counterintuitive sort of things that staff... Nothing, you know, violent, but definitely disruptive. The most terrifying call I had was on the last -- the third weekend, where the manager was talking to me, and he said, "You know, Nathalie, I don't know if this is something but I feel like I should tell you. We've sold out of knives and bear spray this weekend." And that is something that I reported immediately to OPS.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 89 02-089-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Just disruptions. You know, there's a lot of LGBT people that work in OPS and, sorry, in Starbucks, and OPS as well, I'm sure, and that -- sorry. But you know, there was a general feeling of annoyance, you know, it was an annoying thing. It was, you know, it was fine, but it wasn't, you know, the pleasant sort of... You know, there was some -- some protestors were perfectly pleasant and lovely, you know, that should be said. They're not all homogenous; right? But there were definitely the ones that would make comments about why they'd be wearing a mask in a window, and the door would be -- you know, "the window's open, you don't need a mask", those types of things. And again, I think we have to put this back into context of the first weekend being our stores were still closed. You couldn't go into a restaurant that first weekend; that was reopening on the 31st. So the -- you know, the feeling that we have about masks today, really has to be brought back to how weird that felt then.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Several times, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I sure did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe -- I'm going to say it's Sunday night of the first weekend. Sorry, this is very embarrassing. It has to be said. [END VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct, on the Sunday night. And again, it has to be put in context. The reason I took this video was to share with my colleague at OPS because that day we had been told that, you know, now we're going to move towards egress, but I was trying to demonstrate there is no sign of egress at Coventry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The person that was on our calls with us during -- at those daily meetings, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, two things. So this video, to put it in context, is next to the stadium, so on, you know, depending on what map you're looking at, not on the hotel side but on the other side. What I had observed during that weekend, and it increased during the week, and certainly on the second weekend, was the sense of directing their own traffic, of allowing certain trucks in, or, you know, people in or not. So there was a sense of security that was -- security system of some sort that was building up. I observed large scale tents that, again, from an event planner perspective, signified to me, you know, organization, and places to work, and places to make food. I saw food being brought in. I saw deliveries being made. This is over the course of the four weeks. And I sawt hat encampment grow from an overflow parking to an encampment, a very solid, very organized, Blues Fest large scale event style, “We’re here for a long time and we have the infrastructure to stay.”

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That’s the same night. The other side of the parking lot. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] Again, terribly embarrassing. Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Everybody hates their own voice; right? Sorry. I just had to say that out loud. I’m nervous.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I am somebody that is very savvy with social media. To me personally, it was clear that the 70-kilometre train of trucks that crossed the country was not coming in for a small protest in a day. And to me, that Sunday night was the proof that, you know, somebody somewhere had underestimated or not listened to the anger, frustration, that a large, at that point, you know, large number of people felt. They were coming to the City of Ottawa as the representatives of what they thought and they were going to stay there. They were going to stay there until they were heard.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe that’s the second weekend.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And what you see in that video are things that, again, as an event planner, I took because it drove me crazy, because there was a propane tank next to diesel with, like, wooden pallets packed right next to it, which no -- I mean, an event would be, A, not even allowed to operate, second, would be shut down and police trucks would be there, bylaw would be there, and as an event planner, I would be fined. And there was no fining. I saw tents that normally, again, as an event planner, both in my BIA role, but also previously, you need permits to put up tents like that in the City of Ottawa. You pay a permit, an inspector has to come, there has to be an engineer evaluation. To my knowledge, none of that had been done at Coventry. So I essentially had a festival happening in my community that was neither sanctioned, or was it protected by the normal standards that the City of Ottawa would adhere to. And in the city, there’s a thing called the SEAT Program, which is Special Events Activation Team, and any event that goes through the City of Ottawa must go through the very, very stringent process of being evaluated by that, and none of it had been done. I witnessed downtown stages on, you know, the back of a truck, you know, wooden things made, wooden things with diesel being poured on to them. Like, just things that were, in my 30-years experience, absolutely baffling, and quite frankly, you know, dangerous.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 94 02-094-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah, I have a video that I submitted when I was driving to see one of my staff, and I was coming back towards -- on Nicholas between DND and University of Ottawa, and I was taking the video to demonstrate that there was lawlessness. Like, there were trucks parked on sides of roads and in the middle. This is an onramp to a major highway. And as I was driving past, I saw somebody, out of their thing, dump a chemical toilet. And I caught it by accident on to ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right outside DND.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think some were, and I think a lot weren’t.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There’s another video that I submitted where, at Coventry, there -- I don’t know this for a fact, but I deduced that there was sort of a shift change that would happen. There would be a series of trucks that would leave in the morning, and some would come back. And they would sort of do this convoy style, obviously. They’re a convoy. So but on several occasions, I would be trying to sort of leave that parking lot, and there would be 50, 60, 100 trucks all in a row not respecting traffic, not respecting traffic lights, and sort of operating as a parade. But again, in the City of Ottawa, when you do a parade, you have to have a police escort, there are certain laws, it’s announced ahead of time what you’re -- you know, your trajet, sorry, I don’t know what that word in English is.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Route.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Route. Merci. And, you know, so again, these were things that would happen. I saw convoys of trucks -- sorry, like farm tractors driving down Vanier Parkway, which is not even a trucking route. You’re not even allowed a truck on Vanier Parkway normally. Like, none of our businesses could get a truck to drive down Vanier Parkway to come give them a delivery, and yet, you know, we’re seeing these types of things. So I saw a lot of that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, generally for Spark Street businesses, the -- for the most part, especially after that Saturday, the first Saturday, I would say about 85 percent of them just stayed closed for the remainder of the protest and for the week afterwards. It was difficult for them. I mean, businesses that were open would suddenly end up with five, 10, 15 people in the store unmasked wanting to use the bathroom, or just to warm up, not actually getting any services, especially if it was a retail business. Food businesses initially in that first weekend, you know, reported me to -- staff would report to me that they had difficulty managing the customers coming in. Businesses were, of course, were under the regulations for the closure and such, so if they were allowing customers in, those customers had to be masked, there was limits on what they could do. It was impossible for them to enforce it. And that was something I think we did bring up on one of the calls eventually, which was -- and then, again, initially we were told, “No, it’s up to the business to enforce that. The business has to make the decision whether they’re going to stay open or closed. It’s up on the business.” And then it was brought to their attention it’s quite impossible for a single shop owner to police five or six people who are in -- determined not to follow the local health ordinances. So we did get some clarity on that, that eventually the -- it would be in the best judgement of the bylaw officer whether or not they would impose a fine on the business or a warning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. None of my members reported anything.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 97 02-097-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It was said though -- sorry, I have to say, it was said that if fines were given out, they would be given out to the business, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- not to the people. So that’s, again, another deterrent to keeping your business open, because if you can’t control or have security there at your own expense, which ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- most of these stores didn’t have at that point. Again, we’re coming off of a two- year, you know, covid, and then we all got caught off guard right before Christmas that we were shut down again. So a lot of these businesses had no money for security or anything. So they thought, “Well, if I can’t police it, I’m going to get a fine. It’s not worth it.” So they would close.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-10

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. When this started getting bigger than it was, I was talking to my Chair specifically about this, he’s been downtown as a business operator for over 50 years and has never closed his business. That would include during the G20 Summit when it was here a number of years ago, and other activations. It’s never occurred to them to close during any event before. This was the first time where he felt concern for his safety and any staff he were to bring in during that time, which led to him closing his business.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, a business of mine who was publicly against the convoy as it was interfering with their business had their Google Review attacked. So they suddenly randomly started getting one-star reviews on their business, and that’s something that’s very difficult for a business to -- it’s an easy thing for someone to do if they’re ticked off, somebody to give someone a one-star review, but in this day and age of internet reviews and such, those things are so important to a business, and suddenly a business that had a four and a half star rating was suddenly trending at, I believe at like two, two and a half, which is -- there’s no -- it’s difficult to recover from anything like that and it’s very difficult to go to the providers, the Yelps and that and say, these are all fraudulent reviews. This is a bike shop owner and so his business at that time of the year is very quiet anyways, but he does have some customers coming in doing maintenance during the wintertime and such and the intention was to be open for his mechanics to do work through the winter, and during this period it was just impossible.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 99 02-099-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was just going to say it should also be noted that the Rideau Centre in its history and in the history of Cadillac Fairview had never closed for a day, and even when the stores are closed the Rideau Centre is the walkthrough for transit, so it’s always open 24/7, you can go to the washroom there, you can go warm up in there. It closed and that cost them $2 million a day and they were closed for three - - three weekends, the worst of which would be Valentines Day and Canada -- and Family Day. And I think for businesses, we have to state how important that is. I have a business, Quelque Chose Patisserie, they have their bakery and -- sorry, I’m going quickly -- their bakery in Vanier they also have two other franchises, now three, but because -- and they had trouble at the Byward one so they closed down, but that affected the bakery and it affected also Westboro, because their Westboro location people were told to stay home, so they didn’t have it. So again, that is -- that losing -- for that bakery to lose Valentines Day and Family Day weekend carries them through the first quarter. Those two days it was said to me yesterday by that business owner, that carries them through January, February, and March. And again, that’s a normal January, February, March, not one where you were shut down at Christmas, not one where you’ve been shut down for two years. So it was devastating.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 99 02-099-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, you can go. I’ve been going first, so you go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I just think it’s difficult to explain because -- it’s been very difficult sometimes for us to explain how devastating it's been for our business community and the downtown core. You know, I prime example I think was an example that was about halfway through the event I'm in line that night, after spending 12 hours on the street, in the line at a coffee shop in Kanata, just to pick up some coffee for the next morning for my family, and I'm looking inside this coffee shop and I’m seeing customers inside. And immediately my brain said, “Oh my God, they’re in violation of the health orders”, da, da, da, and then I realized, no, the rest of the province has been allowed to open, it's just downtown Ottawa. And I think that's the effect that this had, was because this activation happened for as long as it did, police directed the residents and visitors to not come downtown. It's something we still deal with today with the Wellington closure and such, and the reputation of the city and the downtown. We've already seen in tourism numbers this summer, they are down. We’re continuing to see that the reputation of the city has been -- as a place to visit, has been greatly tarnished and it's going to take us years to truly recover from that in the downtown core, if we ever do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have two things I would add. One, just to say to that, I have friends who, you know, decided that they would have this beautiful Ottawa staycation David summer, and they go, and they bike, you know, and they go to the market, and then there sitting out in the market at the end of this really amazing day, and then all of a sudden this protest comes up and people start yelling and screaming, and so this was months afterwards. So to Kevin's point, it's still happening now, there's still disruption to businesses. The second point I'd like to make in closing is that, and I don't know this has been tackled, but Vanier is the most diverse BIA of all the BIAs in Ottawa and we have the highest level of racialized people within -- or racialized business owners. So MacArthur specifically is the street which is the closest street to the convoy, a street that is very multicultural and has a lot of, you know, a lot of specific cultural groceterias, restaurants, those types of things. Anecdotally, there was a lot of -- it was very difficult for some of those business owners, and though they may or may not have closed, the sense -- and I think, you know, the speakers this morning sort of talked to that, there was a sense of like, foreboding in the city. There was this intense feeling, and specifically, one of our organizations that we worked quickly with was targeted, or not targeted, was intimidated to a certain extent by having men standing outside their windows looking in, again, comments being made, and this is a shelter for Indigenous women and children. So you know, it has to be said that the damage done, I think was somewhat disproportionate to those in our city that are equity seeking and equity deserving, especially our small businesses.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 101 02-101-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you for that clarification.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I Was trying to fake it till I made it on that one.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I don't have that knowledge. I know a lot of my businesses took advantage of it.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I can't comment on the total, but I could state that the majority of my Main Street businesses -- my storefront businesses did apply to the fund.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay. I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I’m not sure ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Then I would say there are likely times Uber eats was operating and other times on the weekends which I think our businesses would deem to be the most busy times, where a lot of them weren’t. There was a lack of drivers. I know that was a major issue, and then because of the closures, you know, there is zero access for it. So whether the app was open or not, I'm not aware, but I can tell you that many of our restaurants in Vanier and others could not use that service ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- as a method to sell their food.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And for -- sorry -- further to that, some would make the orders and they wouldn't be picked up, so there was an additional loss.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did not use Uber Eats in that time, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, she is the MP that represents Vanier, so I do, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did not, no. That was not my request. That may have been my colleague in the market, but it was not me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In some there were, not in those particular videos, but at times there was honking. There wasn’t as much honking at Coventry, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Roughly 6:00 p.m.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, the first weekend that was roughly 6:00 p.m., on the second weekend it was 9:00 a.m. in the morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So it depends. I was there different times.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was honking, yes. There was definitely honking. There was some loud noises. Whether they were a loud as downtown, no they were not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But there was definitely honking and depending at times too. Also, yeah. No, there was not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was not aware of the email, but I do know that Steve Ball from the Hotel Association was on many of our calls, especially in the third and fourth weekend, near the tail end of them, and he did make that aware to us. He also pointed out to the fact that there was a lot of hotels that couldn't be accounted for because they would be booked through third party.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So the hotels.coms or things like that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It appears to me that they should have known that, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It was urine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The date is on the video. I believe it was the second weekend, possibly the third weekend. I'm sorry, it's on the video, but ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It wasn't on at the beginning, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I am not aware of that, no. But I'm happy to hear that at some point something was permitted, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The Canadian Tire, yes. That's what ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- it was told to me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Most of the people I know that hunt with knives don't wave them around.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So they would be concealed perhaps, but I don't -- I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think waving around a knife states whether or not the knife exists.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Did I see the knives being waved around? No, I did not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Do I trust that the Canadian Tire was telling me the truth? Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was not in the heat of it on the last weekend, if that's what you're implying, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I had none, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I suppose that would be fair, yes. I mean, I suppose we could probably cross-reference credit cards at some point and figure that out, but I don't think that that is the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, I don't know.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Likely. Way above my pay grade, sir.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Within reason, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, on occasion we've been told about how the levels of cooperation between the organizers and City officials, so, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

It's fair.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-02

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-06

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I'd agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-10

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-03

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Many chose to close based upon what information or lack of information was provided to them, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I see that, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, information was being sent to us and other organizations, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Dates are correct, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, he’s not mine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-02

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, as we always check regardless.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. We’d get other emails similar in nature and broadness.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree that that’s the information that was made to all public, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry, the second last bullet? Or the ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, I do remember that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, I remember that, but that’s not a lot of people normally. So again, that doesn’t -- I just want to state, because I think it’s important to state the context. Three thousand (3,000) people on Parliament Hill is not a lot of people. Like, when you look at what the numbers are on Canada Day. So again, it doesn’t point to something that I would look at that and go, “Oh, wow. Three thousand (3,000) people. We’re going to be, you know, in this ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- for the long run.” So 3,000 people is not a ton of protestors, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct. And again, this wasn’t to BIAs. This was to the public.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Ms. ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So that’s actually a very good question, because our NRTs in Vanier were pulled from us and taken downtown. So I was not in communication with my own normal OPS people with who I transige. I don’t know what that word is in English, but that I work with every single day. I was in liaison with the community officer for the ByWard, who was now doing five BIAs.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But that -- just so we’re clear, that’s not the constable I would normally deal with.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Mine were taken away.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes. So there was a sense that it -- he didn’t necessarily have the -- I don’t know how to explain it, but he’s not a senior level executive of the Ottawa Police Force.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would say at the end of the occupation there was a larger police presence than before. I would say that from my vantage point, where my office was and where I’m located, that the police presence throughout didn’t appear to be much larger to me, visually, compared to other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree with what Kevin said, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In the beginning, not so much, but near the end, definitely more.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No. Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would say that the call initiated by Mat Fleury’s, and his office, allowed us to have a daily conversation with a community officer, or occasionally somebody slightly higher in rank. I would say that throughout that, we didn’t receive any additional insight or information more than what was being released in press releases during that time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Almost daily, as long as they weren’t being pulled into some other action or meeting.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Clearly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, again, we held about 30 some of these calls, so I can’t remember all, but I can -- would absolutely state that he was on at least one call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Sure. Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Possibly two. And again, I apologize ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

--- that -- we had a lot of them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I only recall one.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To my knowledge, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To the Commission?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Like I've said it several times, yes, but not to -- perhaps I didn't say it the day of the Commission interview.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think he said -- I think it was definitely in the intention that you were saying. I don't think that he was, like, I'm terrified and I don't know what I'm doing. That's not what I'm implying. What I'm implying is that he was very candid with us. You know, we had gone through a very difficult weekend. He was very candid with us. And he, I think, was relating that he too was scared. There are things that were happening that -- you know, there was a lot going on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have said that several times previously, but not to the Commission.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To my recollection, I don't recall. I believe it was the Tuesday after the 1st.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So the 1st or 2nd of February, I would assume.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

He described a very fluid moving protest, an occupation. He described what he had said a lot in the press conference, that there were lack of resources, that this was something that was evolving by the minute, that this was unprecedented. I want to say I have tremendous respect at that time for Chief Sloly, and I believe -- you know, I don't know what his intentions were, but I believe in that moment, it was fluid.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would concede too that that was the intention, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think that was one of the issues.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry, when I consider congestion, I consider that a fluid moving traffic of congestion. This was not a fluid moving traffic of congestion. This was blockaded.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This was -- these were cars that were parked that weren't moving. These were loading zones. These were handicapped parking that were being blocked for hours and days on end, well beyond the normal ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Definitely.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Typically, yes, very well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There wasn't the usual level that we would be accustomed to in the circumstance like this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I will be honest and tell you that this was not a problem that was specific to Vanier, but on behalf of my colleagues and BIAs that are central, we were not satisfied with the level to which ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- those types of things were being dealt with.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Absolutely not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-12