Volume 2 (October 14, 2022)

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Volume 2 has 314 pages of testimony. 22 people spoke before the Commission, including 6 witnesses.

Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.

The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Maxime Roussy.

Speakers, by number of times they spoke:

  1. Mathieu Fleury, Councillor - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 313 times)
  2. Catherine McKenney, Councillor - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 282 times)
  3. Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 273 times)
  4. Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director - Vanier Business Improvement Area (Vanier BIA) (spoke 236 times)
  5. Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 195 times)
  6. Zexi Li - Ottawa residents (spoke 158 times)
  7. Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 139 times)
  8. Kevin McHale, Executive Director - Spark Street Business Improvement Area and Mall Authority (Sparks BIA) (spoke 115 times)
  9. Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 103 times)
  10. David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 99 times)
  11. Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 93 times)
  12. Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 75 times)
  13. Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 72 times)
  14. Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 67 times)
  15. Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 62 times)
  16. Victoria De La Ronde - Ottawa residents (spoke 57 times)
  17. The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 20 times)
  18. Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 8 times)
  19. John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 4 times)
  20. The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 4 times)
  21. Unidentified speaker (spoke 3 times)
  22. Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 1 time)

Upon commencing on Friday, October 14, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 8 02-008-03

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Bonjour. Good morning. Welcome, to Day 2. Bienvenue à la deuxième journée, and our first day of live witnesses. Before I call on the witnesses, there are just a couple of matters I want to raise. The first is the -- what the public and the media know, in particular, with respect to exhibits. I may have mislead people yesterday in calling Exhibits 1, 2, and 3. As the parties know, the documents that become exhibits are put into the database that's available to the public in accordance with their unique document number, not as exhibits. And it's important to know that all the exhibits that go into the database that's available for the public, all the documents are not necessarily referred to in the hearing, in the sense that there are many documents that will become part of the record, either because they were referred to in the overview reports you heard yesterday, so that not only the overview report goes into the record but all of the documentation that supports that. Same thing for other types of reports or affidavits or witness statements, when they go into evidence, we -- what we have arranged, if you like, is that all the backup goes in so that the full record will be composed not only of documents referred to here, but documents referred to in the backup documentation. So a little bit complicated, but it's simply to alert the media and the public that when you go to the website of the Commission, you'll find a lot more documents that back up the statements and the evidence. The parties know this because the parties have been provided these documents, have reviewed them, and they may question witnesses about them, but it's a much more fulsome record. Because of the timelines we have, we couldn't spent days noting documents and putting in all of that evidence. The contentious evidence you will hear at the hearing. Don't worry about that, the parties will ensure that. La deuxième chose que j’aimerais soulever, c'est qu’il n’est pas permis d’enregistrer ou de diffuser de vos téléphones, et cetera, en salle. There is no livestreaming allowed or a recording of the proceedings. It is livestreamed by the Commission, but people should not be doing this from their own phones. So with that brief introduction, there are -- this, according to the schedule, will be a busy day. It -- if it goes according to plan, we will not finish before seven o'clock tonight, so let's get started as soon as possible because we have scheduled a full day. It can be shorter if people shorten their cross-examinations, and we'll -- but obviously the times have been allocated and we'll hold people to it. So Commission Counsel, ready to go. Ms. Rodriguez.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 8 02-008-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Good morning, Commissioner. My name is Natalia Rodriguez, as you know. I'm Senior Commission Counsel to this Commission. And I am going to be calling our first witnesses to the Commission, Ms. Victoria De La Ronde and Ms. Zexi Li.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-02

The Registrar (POEC)

Ms. De La Ronde, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-07

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Religious document, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-09

The Registrar (POEC)

Please take the Bible and hold it in your right hand. For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-13

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

My name is Victoria De La Ronde, and Victoria, V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A, and De La Ronde is three words, capital D-E, capital L-A, capital R-O-N-D-E.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-16

MS. VICTORIA De La RONDE, Sworn

The Registrar (POEC)

Ms. Li, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to affirm, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-22

The Registrar (POEC)

For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

My full name is Zexi Li, spelled Z-E-X-I, last name, L-I.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-25

MS. ZEXI LI, Affirmed

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay, the witnesses have been sworn.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 10 02-010-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Just give a moment for the registrar to take back the Bible. Okay, go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-03

EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Good morning, Ms. Li. Good morning, Ms. De La Ronde. Can you both confirm that you are residents of Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-06

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I am a resident of Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I am a resident of Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Ms. De La Ronde, are you retired?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Ms. Li, what do you do for a living?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I am a federal public servant.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do you both live alone?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And were you both in Ottawa during the protests of January and February of 2022?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, I want to speak a little bit about the impacts that living through the protests of January and February had on both of you. Ms. De La Ronde, can you describe for the Commissioner what was the impact, if any, on your physical well-being?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 11 02-011-26

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The impact on my physical well-being was -- is quite extensive. I certainly during the experience had difficulty sleeping. I had an effect on my lungs and my throat because of the fumes and other smells, and I also have long-term effects.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Can you describe those for us?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-08

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The long-term effects are loss of hearing, loss of balance, some vertigo triggered by the sound of any horn now, triggered by certain music as the music was very loud, and a physical trigger when I get a smell of gas. Both my throat and lungs start to feel infected. I had also a phantom horn blowing as an experience for a number of weeks after.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And to what do you attribute these physical impacts that you experienced?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-17

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Certainly, I attribute it to the very, very loud and constant noise from the horns, from the music, from the idling trucks. Even when the horns abated for a minute or two, the trucks idled. The trucks idled all night. And so it just was an assault on my hearing. And I can certainly tell now that there is a diminished function. I was able before to listen to media, for example, at a normal level of, say, four. Now I have to turn it to six.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so can you confirm that you lived in the Centretown area or the downtown area? Maybe just give us a general sense of your location.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 12 02-012-27

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I am near to Laurier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And what was the impact, if any, on your mental wellbeing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-04

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Well, certainly as I mentioned, it was such an experience of helplessness, especially during the event, where the horn blowing was so loud, and continuous. There was absolutely no place for me to go in my own unit, there was no place that had any less sound. I checked different rooms to see, well, maybe I can sleep on the floor here. There was no place that had a diminished sound. And if there was, it wasn't a space, like, a closet that was big enough to sleep in. There was just no escape to that. So I felt trapped and helpless during that. During the fireworks when the debris from the fireworks sprayed against my windows, I was just terrified that they would break any minute because I thought how could I do something, and what could I do at midnight, and who could come at midnight? And this is February. A broken window would have been pretty disastrous. So there was a lot of anxiety and discomfort.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And do these impacts on your mental wellbeing continue to this day or have they abated?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-23

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Certainly, they have - - some have abated, yes, and I worked very hard for that in terms of -- on the mental wellbeing. It still -- I jump a lot when I hear a loud horn, and also when I get this smell of gas, definitely, I have a physical to that -- reaction, which is quite distressing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 13 02-013-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And, Ms. Li, I will ask you the same thing. What was the impact, if any, on your physical wellbeing of living through the protest of January and February of this year?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 14 02-014-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

During the time of the occupation - - I struggle to call it a protest because I know what a protest is, but it was incredibly difficult to get anything done because of the noise. There was a significant impact on things like focus and, you know, just even living day to day. Sleep deprivation was one of the first things that affected me personally and it also affected the animals that I live with as well. They seemed quite distressed. But for me personally, it was almost impossible to get a good night's sleep or a full night's sleep, if any, and if anything, it would be low quality and often interrupted by a sudden loud horn. And when it was quiet -- because there were brief periods where it was quiet, I was riddled with the anxiety that the horns were going to start again, and when the horns started again, it was left -- we were left wondering, you know, when they would stop, if they would ever stop again. And, yeah, it was just day-to-day living within my own home, living in fear of the sound and the intrusion really that they posed just being outside on our streets. Yeah, and further to that, it was unpleasant, to say the least, to exit my home, but it was something I did anyways as I didn't feel like it was -- the whole situation was wrong, and I felt almost a little bit of defiance, wanting to go outside and continue to live my life as best I could. And when I did, oftentimes, I was harassed for wearing a mask or being -- I was told to smile more under my mask, or, you know, just these kinds of comments that wouldn't have otherwise occurred and on a quiet, normal walk day-by-day. And I think what was one of the worst things was whenever you chose -- well, whenever I chose not to engage with the individuals that were occupying my neighbourhood, they would blast their horns at me with a smile on their faces, and then they would cheer in unison and almost take joy in the -- in my flinching, at my recoiling from the noise that I had been essentially experiencing non-stop for the entire duration of the events that occurred.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 14 02-014-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so can you confirm as well that you live in the downtown area south of Wellington?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I live near Laurier Street and Centretown.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Ms. De La Ronde, can you describe for us the impact, if any, of living through the protests in Ottawa on your ability to go about your daily life?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-18

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I work very hard to be independent and safe as a person with a disability. That objective is very important to me and every success in reaching that objective is coveted. So that was gone. I was trained to walk with the traffic, to walk with the flow, to negotiate and keep myself safe on the street. Of course, there was no traffic or no flow, no indicator, or if it's idling, I wasn't sure if these big vehicles overhanging a small sidewalk, if they decided to suddenly shift or change, if they could see me, so it was terrifying. The sound was so high that I could not hear any chimes or signals that we use at the ends of the street to tell us that it's safe to cross. That was just not available, so it was -- it just was not safe in my world. Also, in terms of independence, I do everything myself. I order my groceries. I order prescriptions. And but -- and I take public transportation or private transportation to go to meetings, to go to appointments, to do my daily business. So I had everything set up for myself as an independent person, living alone in downtown Ottawa, which provided such good services. But immediately, immediately, there was no taxi, no Uber, no Para Transpo, no grocery delivery, which I depended on, no taxi even to go and get some, no prescription delivery. Some way had to be figured out how to obtain all the necessities of life. The restrictions on my ability to get food was gone -- or was there, I -- so that was the impact in terms of my mobility, so I found myself trapped.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 15 02-015-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And can I confirm, Ms. De La Ronde, I noticed you walk with a white cane. Can you confirm, do you have a visual impairment?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 16 02-016-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And does that visual impairment then cause you to rely on sounds and hearing in order to get around outside?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 16 02-016-25

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

That is a huge, huge assist for me to have safe mobility outside and for me to remain independent. Yes. Very critical are the sounds.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 16 02-016-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And so how did the sounds change then from kind of normal day to day to when the protest was happening in January and February?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-03

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

There was absolutely no ability to negotiate my environment by using sound. The sounds of the horns, the sounds of the very, very loud music, the sounds of the people, with lots of voices coming from all different places, all was disconcerting and just completely eliminated my ability to negotiate my environment independently.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Ms. Li, can you describe for us what you saw, what you heard, what you experienced when you did go outside and walk the streets during the protest?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well it was the middle of winter, so really the first thing you noticed when you stepped outside was all of the snow, because services were unable to be rendered due to the occupation that was going on. And further to that, the snow was often coloured yellow or brown due to the public urination and defecation that took place gratuitously, often alongside of my building and just, quite literally, anywhere you walked, on every corner. And on these intersections, often times there were illegal bonfires and yeah, just trash burning right next to, you know, cans of fuel or near the same areas where these individuals would later set off fireworks. And I just remember feeling like it was such a surreal sight. It almost felt like you were in something like the purge because it -- although I didn’t often see direct acts of violence, it was -- there was a certain chaos on the streets and that feeling of chaos and rule breaking and law breaking gradually increased as things progressed. Yeah. Just I need a moment. Just sort of on my daily walks, you know, going to the gym, getting groceries, running errands, we often -- I often encountered individuals that were associated with the occupation and being -- you know, I’m a small Asian woman. I wore a mask most of the time due to the situation that was going on. It was -- like I said, it made you a target because it signaled to the people on our streets that we were not supportive of their cause and that we were not one of them. And in turn, as I mentioned before, they would increase their honking, and target their honking, and shout at us, shout at me, about how they were doing things for us and that they were fighting for our freedoms when, at the same time, I was unable to walk the streets feeling safe, really, because it wasn’t -- I didn’t feel safe. You know, my guard was up all the time and you had to watch every detail so carefully because these people would just approach me out of nowhere. And you didn’t -- you really didn’t know what they were going to do to you, and especially after I took action as an individual, it became different being a person walking on the streets. But I was never deterred from going outside. There was one -- only one moment where I was very, very afraid after my identity and name had been made public. And I had really covered myself up completely so that I was completely unrecognizable, to the point where my neighbours saw this and were very confused when I said hello to them. But after that, I think I realized there was almost a protection in the notoriety that I’d gained, and I don’t know, I felt like it was almost safer for me to walk the streets than the people that I lived around because of my position in the whole situation. With that being said, like, when it comes to my day-to-day life, I’m a really friendly person. I know all of my neighbours. Well, I can’t say all of them, you know, but I know a good few of them. And one of -- like, really, one of the -- my, like, daily joys is chit chatting with them in the elevator and seeing them on the street and saying hello. And what was truly, truly terrible about this time was seeing how people I knew were being affected, and knowing that for every one person that I knew that was going through a difficult time because of what was going on, there were 20 other people that I didn’t know that were going through the same thing. I knew people that were being pushed out of their homes because they were literally having mental breakdowns because of the stress and the noise and just the terror they felt from the situation. And I don’t think anyone or anything can discount those real feelings that people experienced and people had. And because of the action I took, I had encouraged a lot of my friends and neighbours to reach out to me and tell me their stories because it was so important for people to know that this was a serious thing that was going on, that people were being really terribly affected by it. One of my neighbours, she had just had a new born baby. Her name is Hazel. She was maybe six months old at this time, but I remember -- like, I’ve watched Hazel. She’s a really sweet baby. But my friend, she had told me that the noise was so terrible that sometimes just to get her to sleep, she had to take the baby out into the hallway, as far from the windows as possible, and bounce her in the hallways to try and get her to sleep before bringing her back into the apartment, where there was just the unrelenting horns. And other neighbours who told me for just, you know, a good two/three hours of nap, whatever they could get, they would go down to the parking lot and sleep in their car because it was the only place that they could escape to. And for me, second to the hallway, my bathroom was a little quieter, so I got some peace there as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 17 02-017-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So would you say that you felt unsafe walking the streets?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 20 02-020-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I didn’t feel safe, but it’s hard to describe it as unsafe at the same time, because I was actively being so cognizant of my surroundings. I’m fast. I can move very fast. So, you know, I’m -- I was always ready to, you know, take myself out of a situation where something might happen. And, you know, a lot of the times, when they’re bouncing their trucks and their cars and -- I don’t know how to describe it other than, like, roaring at us, like, roaring at me with, like, these large giant vehicles. You know, it’s -- the idea was to move quick and get where we needed to go. And, you know, that was the intention, and that’s what you really had to do, I think, to stay safe, because when you didn’t take your time, they would always get to you. Like, not -- maybe not in the sense that you’re thinking, but they would try and come up to you and convince you that they were doing the right thing. And they would say to me -- like they -- I -- like, on more than one occasion, I would try and plead with them because, you know, there’s a certain desperation in being left in that kind of situation where the people that are supposed to help you weren’t helping you, and it was just ongoing for really -- it was going to be an unknown period of time, because really, every day I woke up and I hoped that it was over, and it never was. Sorry, I lost my train of thought a little there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 20 02-020-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

That’s okay. Ms. De La Ronde, would you say that you felt unsafe walking the streets?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 21 02-021-15

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. For two reasons. One, of course, the inability to negotiate those streets safely, because of lack of assisted -- well, lack of sound was the big thing. Also, being very concerned about what was underfoot, because there was debris on the streets, and it was winter, and icy, and slippery. And then always vigilant that someone was going to approach. On an occasion, there was a person who kept jumping in front of me. I was with someone else. I could only go out if someone came with me. And this person kept jumping in front and didn't allow me to pass. So when he was confronted, finally it stopped, but then sent messages, "Well, I love you anyway", he said. So that was a bit intimidating. And so in that way I didn't feel safe for those two reasons. I didn't have all the faculties I normally use; and secondly, that someone was going to approach me and either I was going to be accidentally hurt or I would -- or my big worries that I would bump into and hurt them too. So always vigilant and concerned. Does that mean I was feeling safe? No. No, I wasn't. I just thought if I didn't have to be out I would not go out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 21 02-021-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Ms. De La Ronde, was there anything else that you experienced that you would consider to be a threat to health or safety?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 22 02-022-12

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

The Sunday after the - - that the vehicles came in and occupied so close to where I lived, the relentless noise was just so unbearable and I was so exhausted from it. And I called and begged a friend, "Could you just please -- I know you have to walk in and get me out, can you just please come and get me out?" And she did, and two days later, I had -- we both had COVID. There was so many people on the street, walking toward us, saying we don't have to wear those masks. There was just people around. Did I get it from them? I don't know, you know, but it meant that I was completely, completely stuck. I couldn't leave my home. I couldn't ask anybody to come and help. I couldn't go and stay with somebody else. I couldn't do anything. I had to be there to isolate for at least those 10 days. So once again, there was no place to go, no place to hide, it just went on and on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 22 02-022-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Ms. Li, what actions, if any, did you take because of your disruptions to your daily life?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, the first action I took was really what I consider to be -- it was really important to me, I think. Because of the nature of the occupation and what was going around the media and the news, I thought it was really important for me to walk the streets and experience things firsthand. So I did. I did that almost every day, and I took pictures, and I took videos, and I remembered what I saw. And I spoke with people. I spoke with the people that were living on our streets legally, I spoke with the people that were stationed on intersections to protect us. And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Sorry, do you mean the police?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, the police. And I just -- that was really the first action I took, just having my own account of things and really living through it myself. And like I said before, I really genuinely, like, love Ottawa, I love my neighbours, and they mean a lot to me, even if they are somewhat strangers in a sense. And because of this closeness I had, I heard a lot of their stories, and more so, I heard a lot of their frustrations. And as egg-throwing began to occur from my building, I felt that, you know, we really needed a medium to at least express what was happening to us so that we could feel, at the very least, heard and maybe diffuse some of the tensions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 23 02-023-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Can you describe -- sorry, can you describe what you mean by the egg-throwing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 24 02-024-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, you know, there were very large trucks parked everywhere, and in some of these instances they were parked right next to some high-rise condo buildings. And as a result, someone -- some people may have gotten some cartons of eggs, and you know, had their little retaliation in frustration because, really, what else could they do. And when that incident occurred, I remember the police actually came to my building to enquire about the egg-throwing, as a complaint had been made by the truckers. And I remember that I felt it as an affront, and that a lot of my neighbours felt it as an affront as well when they were investigating something like this in the light of everything that was happening to us, and what they were really ignoring in a lot of their statements and releases to the public. And as a result, I decided to organise a meeting with a number of residents in my building with some Ottawa Police community liaison officers, just so we could have a recorded account of what our experiences were, and really to, again, diffuse the tension, and really concretely say, "You know what's happening here. We are telling you this. This is our experience, and we really desperately need help because things are -- things have gone on too long." And the residents, honestly, they had wanted to fight back because they felt that nobody else was doing anything for them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 24 02-024-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And what was the result of that meeting?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Following that meeting, maybe twenty of my neighbours showed up, and more had sent their stories through messages or otherwise through me. And we had communicated everything to the officers so that, you know, again, it was recorded. And you know, all of us were there to attest to the fact that this happened, and they know what's going on, because we felt really and truly abandoned at that point in time. And after that, I ended up becoming the lead plaintiff in the class action, which brought my name and person to more public attention.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, so we'll get to that in a little bit. I just wanted to get a sense, for the honking, you both mentioned the sound of the honking. Do you have a sense for when it was -- was it -- was it all the time, was it louder during the day, was it just as loud at night? Can you give us a sense of that, Ms. Li, and then Ms. De La Ronde?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It was -- it's -- sometimes it's hard because that whole month, essentially, feels like a bit of a blur sometimes, but I do remember when it started on Friday night, it felt like in my memory that it never stopped, really.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So would that be Friday, the 27th of January?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. That's when they began to roll in. And I remember when that happened that was -- my feeling was that this is going to be a doozy, you know, bad things are coming. But yeah, it was constant. It was like, from day to night, even if it wasn't for every second, it was at least every other minute.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 25 02-025-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, thank you. Ms. De La Ronde, do you have a sense for when the honking was louder? Was it constant 24 hours a day, was it less at night, was it the same?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 26 02-026-05

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

When the trucks and other vehicles came into my area on the Friday evening, it was very loud. And on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, I could sense, I could sense the excitement and the electricity in the air. And at the beginning, I thought I am so happy to be in a country where there is freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, but then that sentiment started to crumble as the loudness was all night and all that weekend. That's why I begged my friend, "Can you just come and take me out for a short time even so I don't have to hear this?" And the sounds continued constantly, until -- well, at night. And they may have been somewhat diminished because there was -- were crescendos all during the day, and toward the evening in particular, and then all night. When the injunction was put in place, then it abated a bit between 11 o'clock at night, and then 7 o'clock, I could hear activity out on the street. I could hear a huge megaphone starting to advise, it seemed to me, a rolling thunder of horn-blowing starting at 7:30 in the morning, and then the loud, loud music would, which you could hear every word of the music they were -- the songs that were being sung. So your question in terms of how loud it was, how continuous it was. It was continuous. There was an abatement of horn blowing in such a crescendo between those hours, 11:00 at night and 7:00 in the morning. But the idling continued under my window, just with these huge vehicles, the sound of the idling echoing down in the canyon of our buildings all night. So there was no respite from an assault on hearing. I tried to wear earplugs, but they kept falling out, and then I worried if I wore an earplug I wouldn’t be able to hear the smoke alarm, I wouldn’t be able to hear if somebody was pounding on my door to evacuate because there was something -- a fire or an explosion outside our door. So I was caught in between. And of course, I slept with a mask on because of the -- because trying to abate the smell of the diesel and the other smells that were coming up and in through the vents.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 26 02-026-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So I want to show a map now that’s been produced at Exhibit D of the Affidavit sworn by Aaron Bernard, and he’s the Managing Director of Spatial Media. And for the parties’ benefit it’s at document COM50736 if you want to look at that. So this was based on -- this map was created based on -- yeah, you can click on that -- based on data that was collected through the two weeks, the first two weeks of the convoy. And what we see here is just a standard traffic noise in Ottawa during the day, and this is just based on known decibel readings throughout the area, and the decibel readings were collected at different points in downtown Ottawa, and this is a visualization of that data that was collected. So if we go to week daytime -- week one daytime? Thank you. So this is what it shows on this map, based on the decimal ratings collected on the ground in different locations through the first week of the convoy. And if we just zoom in to -- it's a bit of a heat map, so the darker the colour the louder the decibels. And if you can zoom in a little bit more? Okay, that's good. And so, you had said. Ms. De La Ronde, that you live on Laurier, can you tell us approximately a close intersection that you would be by, just so we can locate that on the map?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 27 02-027-17

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes. Close would be Laurier and Kent.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Laurier and Kent?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So if we can just zoom in on Laurier and Kent? You just have to zoom in a bit there. Yeah, just move over to the left. Yeah. We’ve got Lion, we’ve got Kent, and that’s Laurier -- where’s Laurier? Right there, okay. Yeah. So Laurier and Kent we see between 90 decibels and if you go up, about, so between 90 and 100. Okay. And it says, similar to a lawn mower. Does that accord with your recollection of the sound? It says as loud as -- similar to a lawn mower.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-16

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

-- it was beyond a lawnmower.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 28 02-028-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So you would say it was louder in your experience?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And Ms. Li, an intersection that you are near so we can kind of locate you on the map?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The Intersection I live near would be Laurier Avenue West and Bank Street.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Laurier and Bank. Okay, so just over to the right a little bit on the mouse. Yeah, right there, that’s the corner. Okay. So again, similar, 100 to 110 decibels, similar to a lawnmower. does that accord with your kind of recollection of what it was like?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, however, I would like to note that there were points in time where, like Ms. De La Ronde said, there were crescendos, and during those crescendos in particular, there was a roving train horn attached to a truck and when that truck was in our area, I would express that it was much louder and much more disruptive than the lawn mower.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And we're going to hear one of the recordings. If you go down to the blue there, you can see some of the recordings that were taken, so that one is at 100 as well in that zone, so it's similar to the area that you were in in terms of the decibel readings. And we're just going to play it so that everyone here can experience a little bit of what you experienced. (Audio recording played)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Does that accord with your recollection of the sounds when you were either in your building or walking outside, Ms. De La Ronde?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 29 02-029-28

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that does accord this sounds over always present in my building, in my unit. Except, there's some sounds there -- not there, that were even louder and more unnerving. When you hear this, and it's 24 hours it is just -- it’s damaging. It's damaging to the nerves, it's damaging to my health and well-being, so it’s -- it’s shocking. So it does accord, but there was more. There were times when it was more than this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Do you agree with that, Ms. Li?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would agree with that. I would note that many of the trucks in my vicinity had what we would describe as aftermarket horns, where the horns attached to the vehicle were much, much, louder than a standard vehicle would have, and several of these trucks were idled very close to where I lived and resulted in a much more deafening sound.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-13

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And Ms. Li, you had indicated that you took videos and photos when you walked around. I just want to take you to some of those photos if we can.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

It’s COM00000713, and maybe you can just -- when it comes up -- describe to us what we’re seeing here, and when it was taken, and why you took the photo? It’s ending in 713. Okay, yeah. Let’s see the full -- yeah, there we go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 30 02-030-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

So this photo was taken on the corner of Kent and Laurier. I took the photo because I thought that the removing of the tires was a very clear message from the occupiers that they were here to stay. Now, this vehicle in particular was removed sometime later, but I believe this was near the beginning of the occupation, perhaps around February 3rd.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 31 02-031-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. And then the next photo is ending in 728, so COM00000728. Okay. And do you recall when this photo was taken and what we're seeing here?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 31 02-031-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I don’t remember the exact date, it was either February 17th or 18th, if I‘m not mistaken. This morning, this was after the injunction date, the occupiers on Kent Street, it was a very strong encampment, I would describe it as, and they were very much rooted in their position. During the injunction period there was a -- I believe this was like a Friday or Saturday morning, but they had collectively blown their horns at about 6:59 a.m. and obviously it awoke myself and many other residents in the area. At this point we had been, what, 20 days into the occupation, and I for one, was desperate -- not quite defeated -- but also very angry. And I think at that point the desperation was enough where I stood on the corner of Laurier and Kent, I left my home at about 7:30 and I stayed there for about 30 minutes to an hour just them to blow their horns, because I was frustrated and I wanted there to be evidence, first hand evidence, of them define the injection order, them breaking the laws they were breaking, and I wanted to know for myself who exactly was there, so that nobody could say otherwise. And I decided to take photos of the vehicles that were there, collect their information, and that was something that made them very upset as, really, it was in open, active defiance.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 31 02-031-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And is this truck parked on the sidewalk; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, it is.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And was that common for trucks to be up parked on the sidewalks?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

At this time, it was. I also on numerous occasions witnessed trucks driving along the sidewalks as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And I see we are running out of time, so perhaps I will then invite parties to ask you additional questions. Thank you very much. Oh, before we go, is there anything else that you would like to tell the Commission? I do want to give you an opportunity if there's anything else we haven't discussed that you would like to discuss?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to quickly note that in this image, the vehicle next to the white truck, the red truck, on this same day, due to my taking pictures, the man in the red truck was inside of his vehicle and he actually had backed his vehicle into me. I moved out of the way, but I presume it was for taking pictures of his license plate and what was in his vehicle. I also captured video of -- as I approached the vehicle after he had sort of backed into me. I didn't want him to be able to claim that it wasn't him in the vehicle, so I captured the driver in the video as well, and while I did so, he aggressively opened his door at me in the car. And at that point, all of the trucks in the area began blaring their horns at me. And there was another individual who had exited his vehicle and decided to start shouting at me, giving me the finger, and say that the man in the truck hadn't done anything, after I had called the police. He was yelling in the streets that the truck hadn't moved in over an hour, which I had direct video evidence proving that it was not true. So it just really showed to me personally that these people were willing to do anything and say anything to help each other get away with anything.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 32 02-032-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And, Ms. De La Ronde, is there anything we haven't covered that you would like to say?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 33 02-033-14

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

You know, I think you've done a very good job. Thank you very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 33 02-033-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. And now I invite the parties to ask you some questions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 33 02-033-18

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Now for cross- examination, have the parties agreed on an order for the cross- examination? Seeing no response, I will simply call on parties to cross-examine in accordance with the time that has been allocated. So I think the first cross-examination is to be carried out by the convoy organizers, so who's going to be doing this? Okay. So, Mr. Miller, you're on. You have 20 minutes if you need it and given that Commission Counsel has gone a bit over time, I -- we can give you a little bit of leeway, but not very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 33 02-033-20

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So good morning. Ms. Li, I'd like to start with you if that's okay. So, Ms. Li, I understand you're 21 years of age; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm now 22.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Now 22. But at the time of the events in question in January and February of this year you were 21?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And you said already you're a public servant. You work for the Government of Canada?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And you worked for the Government of Canada during the protest period; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And what do you do for your employment for the Government of Canada?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm a data analyst.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And with which Ministry or department are you with?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-24

Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)

Objection. What's the relevance of this line of questioning, Commissioner?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-26

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I'm not sure it's relevant or not, but is it -- it seems to me that it's not unreasonable.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 34 02-034-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well, I personally don't feel there's -- I -- the actions I took was in my capacity as an individual citizen of Ottawa and not related to my work or any other activities.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right, I understand that, but what department were you with and what were you doing for work for the Government of Canada at the time?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was a data analyst with Shared Services Canada.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Shared Services Canada?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And what Ministry does that come under?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I'm not sure.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. I understand that you know Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And I also understand that you know NDP member of provincial parliament for Ottawa Centre Joel Harden; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And from some public articles, I also understand that you were introduced to lawyer Mr. Paul Champ sometime between January 28th, 2022, and February 4th, 2022; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Could you repeat the dates, please?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-27

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

January 28th, 2022, and February 4th, 2022.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 35 02-035-28

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And what date were you introduced to Mr. Champ?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe it was a Friday, so whichever date that Friday fell on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And so someone introduced you to Mr. Champ; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Mr. Champ had reached out to me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And is it not true that it was Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney who put you in touch with Mr. Champ?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is untrue.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And I understand that you are the recent co-chair of the 2002 [sic] Leader Summit for Action Chinese Canadians Together; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And as part of that summit, I understand you gave a video statement of how you became who you are today; do you remember that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-18

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And it focussed on the protest in Ottawa and became -- and becoming the lead plaintiff in the class action that you filed; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And there you described becoming the lead plaintiff in a class action as a fateful and surreal story; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 36 02-036-26

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And you said there you had the opportunity to make a difference; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And you said that the lawyers needed a plaintiff.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And so you were asked to be the lead plaintiff; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And was there anyone else other than Mr. Champ who was asking you to be the lead plaintiff?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Emilie Taman who works with Paul Champ.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-14

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And so Mr. Champ reached out to you randomly? How did Mr. Champ get in touch with you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It was as a result of the meeting I had organized with the Ottawa Police. One of my fellow residents and neighbour was a lawyer who was aware of the action being taken.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And so I just want to take you back as well to that speech you gave with the Leaders' Summit for Action for Chinese Canadians Together. Just let me know if this is correct what you said. This is how you described the protest. "It was insane. It was the strangest Twilight Zone purge scenario where people weren't quite purging, but the opportunity was there because there was just no laws being enforced. So it was this crazy, crazy thing, with hot tubs, with right-wing extremists and then right-wing moderates as well. And then you just -- your confused average grandmother saying, "Oh, isn't this really a great time. I wonder what the air raid sirens are for."" Those are your statements; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 37 02-037-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And when you say purge scenario, for the folks at home as well as anybody here, I take it you're referring to the film series The Purge; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, just in reference to the lack of laws that were in place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And it was your belief the protest provided a purge opportunity; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-14

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would not say that the protest or occupation provided a purge opportunity, but the -- what I witnessed on the streets day-to-day was very reminiscent of that kind of lawless world where open fires were being held, laws were being broken in front of police officers who were not doing anything to combat them, and just a general sense and lack of disregard for public areas and, really, the people that live there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. But again, you said earlier, and you admitted that you stated it was the strangest Twilight Zone purge scenario where people weren't quite purging, but the opportunity was there; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 38 02-038-24

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. So you believe that the opportunity was there for a purge-type scenario; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe the opportunity was there and it was an environment where these people who have been illegally occupying our streets felt that they had the -- I don't know if this is the right word, they had the ability to do anything they wanted as they were not privy to the regulations that the rest of us members of society were. And I came to this conclusion in -- through my witnessing of these crimes being committed, because really, they were crimes, and even speaking with these individuals directly who had informed me that they were not going to face any consequences because they were protected.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. So in the move The Purge, you agree that it’s about that for one day in the United States called the purge, that there are no laws enforced and the population can commit murder, which is the purge. Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-15

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct, but I was not referencing the entirety of the purge. It was a purge-like scenario where laws were not enforced specifically.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And a purge opportunity was available?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, because laws were not being enforced.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. So people could potentially commit murder? That was your concern?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 39 02-039-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not make that statement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And you then, I understand, from your evidence that you provided to the Commission prior in your statement, I understand that you started to hear honking on Friday, January 28th; right? Or January 28th, 2022?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And when you provided the statement to the Commission, did you provide it yourself?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

They interviewed you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Thank you. And I understand that you obtained the injunction on February 5th, 2022?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-14

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I think it’s February 4th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

February 4th, 2022, you obtained the injunction to stop the honking? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-18

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Pardon me, the 7th. February 7th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Well there was ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The injunction was obtained on -- approved by the Court on the 7th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Well I understand there was an interim injunction approved the first two days, and then on the 7th it was approved? Is that the correct facts? Or would -- -

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 40 02-040-25

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, that is not correct. Two days prior to the injunction being put in place, there was a deferral of the trial to that date where the injunction was eventually approved.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Trial. You said trial. I just want to clarify for the record. There was no trial. It was an application; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Application. Sorry, I’m not well versed in law. I’m not a law student.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

I understand. And then after you obtained the injunction, I understand that things got a little bit better; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

For a brief period shortly after the injunction, there was a clear silence from the noise that was previously constant. Shortly thereafter, there was a gradual ramp up in the honking again, but, however, it was more strategic and intermittent than it was previously, whereas it was constant.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And so you said you gave your statement to the Commission before you testified here today; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And when you gave your statement, you knew you had to be truthful?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And when you gave that statement, of course you wanted to include all important observations and interactions that you had with the protestors? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 41 02-041-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I just want to clarify the statement in reference, is that ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

She gave an anticipated statement, so it’s a statement of anticipated evidence, not a witness statement. So it’s not attributable to her, it’s attributable to the Commission, and that is different from a witness statement, which is attributable to the witness.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So I just want to clarify that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Sure. And so when you provided the Commission your statement, I take it that you would have told them all the important information that you wanted them to know?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

As far as I was aware, yes. To the best of my ability.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-18

John Mather, Counsel (POEC)

I’m sorry, Mr. Commissioner. I do want to interject here. Our rules provide that there can be no examination on a statement of anticipated evidence without leave, and I think leave needs to be sought if there’s going to be questions about that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. I won’t put the statement to her. I’ll move on. I understand that you noticed the honking generally stop after the injunction was granted, though some trucks still honked intermittently for short periods of time? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 42 02-042-24

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And so that’s what happened after the injunction? Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-03

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

To the best of my recollection, correct. That was the immediate aftermath.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. Now between January 28th and February 5th, 2022, did you attend your employment at the Government of Canada?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was working from home, though I struggled to maintain productivity due to the disturbances that were taking place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And at the Government of Canada, I take it that you are on salary? Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So between January 28th, 2022 and February 5th, 2022, you did not lose any income? Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That would be correct. There was a leave code that was applied for government employees that were affected by the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. But prior to the situation as well, you were working from home, wasn’t that also under the general covid policy for Government of Canada employees?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Could you clarify to the question, please?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 43 02-043-27

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So prior -- weren’t you working from home prior to January 28th, 2022 anyway?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And how long were you working from home for?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I had started a new position on January 10th with Shared Services Canada. Prior to that, I was employed working from home with another agency.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-06

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And what agency were you employed with before?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I was employed with the Canada Revenue Agency.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Canada Revenue Agency. And so from January 28th, 2022, and before, you were already working at home?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Thank you. And moving on from sort of your background with working from home, I understand that you had the interactions with the protestors and you confronted them on Kent Street. Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And when you confronted those protestors, do you remember saying to them, which was recorded, “Go back to where the fuck you are from?”

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I may have said that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yeah. And I take it that you never saw any of the -- or never said to the Commission, or saw any protestors or truckers physically harm anyone? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 44 02-044-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There was only the, I would describe it as intimidation with a truck.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And you never said to the Commission, and nothing in that regard, with respect to seeing protestors or truckers threatening to physically harm anyone either; did you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not make that statement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And you didn’t say to the Commission or see anything in your observations that could be classified as espionage or sabotage?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I’m sorry?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

You didn’t see anything that could be classified as espionage or sabotage?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you. And you didn’t say to the Commissioner you observed any of the protestors or truckers destroy or light a fire to any buildings or anything like that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Not inside of any buildings, no. Just outside.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Outside. So you’re saying that they were destroying the outside of buildings? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I did not say that. I said they were lighting fires outside of buildings, as in the bonfires that were all over the city.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. But they weren’t trying to knock down any form of buildings, or property, or anything like that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 45 02-045-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I can’t comment to their intentions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Well I understand their intentions, but I submit you didn’t see them do anything like that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I just saw the fires. Open fires.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you didn’t see them try to destroy any other trucks or vehicles or light them on fire or anything?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you. And so I just want to talk to you a little bit about that class action as well. So you became the lead plaintiff on February 4th when it was filed; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-14

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And as of today, I understand there were only three other additional plaintiffs to that action? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And the first one is Happy Goat Coffee Company? Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And Happy Goat Coffee Company is a chain of coffee shops that has three coffee shops in the downtown area? Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 46 02-046-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

As far as I know, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you. And the second plaintiff is, they got added, it’s a numbered company, but it operates as Union Local 631. And I understand that’s a restaurant and bar on Somerset Street? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And the third plaintiff is a fellow by the name of Geoffrey Devaney? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-07

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And he was a bartender and server at a restaurant in ByWard Market?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

My understanding is that he was employed in the ByWard Market.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And that he doesn’t live in downtown Ottawa?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And so after you got the injunction on February 5th, I understand that both yourself and Mr. Champ began to offer the protestors and truckers an agreement that they could sign to be released from your class action if they agreed to leave. Do you remember that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-18

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would like to clarify that the injunction was granted on the 7th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. But after the -- on the -- beginning the 5th as well, as I understand, you began to offer this release to the protestors and truckers? Is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 47 02-047-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And so who was it that you had going out handing out copies of this release to the truckers? Do you remember?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-02

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I am not aware of that information.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Did you know that Councillor McKenney was handing them out for you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-06

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And now you do from me telling you, or did you know before this?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Well it was a lot of events and I think it was mentioned that McKenney was out doing this. However, I was not directly involved, other than agreeing to offer this agreement.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And I understand also that you know the NDP Member of Provincial Parliament for Ottawa, Senator Joel Harden. Do you know him?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And he was contacting people and organizing events to raise money for your lawsuit? Do you remember that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And was it not the Ottawa City Councillor Catherine McKenney and NDP Member of Provincial Parliament for Ottawa, Joel Harden, who supported you and put you forward for that claim? Is that not correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-23

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is not correct. I’m -- I’ve stated that that was not true previously as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 48 02-048-27

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And so I just want to bring you to sort of another statement that you had said when you were at the Leaders Summit for Action for Chinese Canadians.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-01

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would also like to clarify that the Leaders Summit has not occurred.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. But you gave a video?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. So can you agree with me that you stated the following: “It came about that the lawyers needed a lead plaintiff to stand up and speak about what was going on and really try to make a difference, because we weren’t seeing any change in our community, which was not acceptable for anybody, but being a Chinese Canadian, it is a bit of an odd role to play, because it's not something that is really necessarily supported or common within our culture, but I really saw the need for somebody, anybody to stand up and speak for the people and help us out of the situation we were in, and the stars really aligned and here I am." (As read)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-09

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that's true.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-27

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you. Those are my questions for you, Ms. Li, and then I just have a few for Ms. La Ronde.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 49 02-049-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Before you continue, would it be all right to clarify my relationship with Joel Harden and Catherine McKenney? No? Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

If His Honour would like, that's fine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-06

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

There'll be a brief opportunity to re-examine ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-10

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- at the end so.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So Ms. La Ronde, good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So, Ms. Ronde, I understand just from your background, and I'm not trying to poke or anything like that, but I understand you were born around 1947 in Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-15

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was born in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, but grew up in Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan, and you ask women their ages so ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

I won't -- I'm not going to. I promise not to do that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-22

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

They can do the math.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-24

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yes, all right. And I don't want to get into too much with your disability and I'm very sorry ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 50 02-050-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

--- for the struggles that you've had particularly during the convoy and protest but I understand that about in 1961 is when you began to lose your sight; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And despite that, you thrived. You obtained a bachelor degree in psychology from the University of Saskatchewan in 1974?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-06

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you completed your law degree at the University of Saskatchewan in 1984?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

'83.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And thereafter you completed your masters of law at the London School of Economics; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And how many jurisdictions are you a member of the bar in or a member of the solicitor's group?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-19

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was a member of good standing with the Ontario bar and the New York bar of -- but recently, I resigned my membership from the Ontario bar.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-25

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I'm still active as the non -- a retired member of the New York bar, but I'm still licensed.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 51 02-051-26

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And I understand that after becoming a member of the bar you began to work for the Government of Canada; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you spent 10 years with the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-05

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

It was more, like, 25 years. I'm just -- just let me recorrect that. It was from 1990, September 1990 to April 2011.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-08

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And then you were also with the Department of Veteran Affairs Canada; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And around that -- in the '80s, you also incorporated a company called De La Ronde International Inc.; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-15

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And that company is still in operation?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And is that company not a federal government contractor?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

No. But it does do government contracts and assists with I believe a lot of First Nations work; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 52 02-052-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you worked as a lawyer for the Government of Canada; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-01

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

No, I was working on the policy side of the picture. I was not a just lawyer with the Government of Canada. I was an executive.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And I don't know the answer to this and I'm going to ask that of you, do you mind telling the folks what brought about your participation in this Commission?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-06

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I had a phone call from the Commission, Commission solicitor asking my permission to, first of all, have a conversation about my experience and then asking my permission if my name could be put forward as a potential witness in this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions for the both of you, and have a good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. So the next I will call on the Government of Canada to briefly cross-examine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-19

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

I just have three questions, Your Honour, on Ms. Li. You described a lawless environment during the period of the convoy occupation, I believe, in reference to my friend's questions there, yes?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. Did that change after you obtained the anti-honking injunction on February the 7th?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 53 02-053-28

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Did it change by February the 14th, the lawless environment that you described?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I don't recall exactly, but I would say perhaps some of it had subsided, but it was still present. If anything, it was more underlying and more desperate, in a sense.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

You obtained an extension of the injunction on February the 16th; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-10

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you showed us photographs on February 17th and 18th, though you couldn't recall which of those 2 dates it was; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-13

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I believe it was the 17th, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-16

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And was there still a lawless environment as you perceived it at that time?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Given my experience personally, I felt that was the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you. Those are my questions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-21

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. Next, I will call on the Ottawa Police.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-23

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Good morning to you both. I just have a couple of questions for you, Ms. Li. You spoke earlier this morning about the injunction. Did circumstances change after the injunction in terms of the level of threats that you were receiving from the community?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 54 02-054-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Following the injunction, I would say the level of threats increased due to the public attention that had been placed on myself and the situation. Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-03

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And once that occurred, once you were receiving a higher level of threat, would you agree that you had multiple interactions with the Ottawa Police Service as a result of that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, that is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-10

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

You had made them aware of the threats that you were receiving?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The majority of the threats were through the internet, and on certain things; however, I was receiving calls and messages to my personal devices. However, the nature of these messages, voicemails and calls did not seem serious enough for me to make a official report. There was only one instance where there was a serious threat received by the RCMP that had been forwarded to the Ottawa Police that was investigated.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-13

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the Ottawa Police actually attended your residence a couple of occasions as well; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-21

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-24

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

I just want to bring up one document if you don't mind. It's OPS-3014460. Can you see at the top of the page that this is a document dated February 9th?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 55 02-055-25

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And can you see about halfway down the page there's a subheading Constable Islam and Constable Lemieux?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-02

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

It appears as though there's notes under that heading in relation to the activities of those officers?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-06

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

If we could go to the next page, bullet number three, it says, "Mo and I spoke with..." (As read) And then, of course, there's obviously a redaction. "...regarding the threats she has received from her involvement with the injunction related to the convoy protest and the warrants." (As read) Obviously, we can see that there's a redaction here, but would you agree that on February 9th you did, in fact, speak with these two officers from Ottawa Police Service?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-10

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Okay. Thank you. And if you could look at that second sentence, it indicates, "She feels very supported by the OPS with this." Would you agree at this time that you had received the attention in relation to the threats from Ottawa Police Service that made you feel comfortable that they were managing that situation?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 56 02-056-23

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Thank you. Those are my questions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. The next I'll call on the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom and JCCF.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-05

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROB KITTREDGE

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Hi to both of you. I'll just have a couple of quick questions for you today and first I'll tilt them so they're facing the right direction. You discussed decibel levels with Commission Counsel during the protests. Were decibel levels ever measured inside of your apartment, Ms. Li?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, they were.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-14

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

They were?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-15

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

By who?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-17

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Me, myself.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-18

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

How did you do that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Through decibel measuring devices downloaded onto my phone. These devices -- these applications had been proved -- they had been researched to be comparable to actual physical decibel testing devices.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-20

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Can you give me the names of those applications that you used?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Off the top of my head, I believe one was called decibel X or something along those lines.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-26

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Can I get an undertaking? Is that possible in this context? I hadn't checked.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 57 02-057-28

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Yeah, okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-04

Unidentified speaker

--- party request undertakings during examination.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-05

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

All right. So you say you used multiple decibel apps?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-07

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There was two, you know, I believe it was called Decibel X; however, it's been some time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-09

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay. And do you remember what exactly the decibel reading was?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

The decibel readings, from my memory, ranged from approximately 75 decibels to at times 85 or 90.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-13

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Okay. When speaking with Commission Counsel earlier, you began to describe how you had been pleading with the protestors, and said, "There is a certain frustration when the people that are supposed to help you aren't helping you." Do you recall making that statement?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-16

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Who were the people who were supposed to help you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-22

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Those people were the Ottawa Police and Bylaw Services.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-24

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And what were they supposed to be doing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-26

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They were, from my understanding as a resident, citizen, and taxpayer, they were supposed to be supporting us and making sure us, as the public and community, feel safe and that the laws are upheld.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 58 02-058-28

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

What what laws did you feel weren't being upheld?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

There were issues with noise, idling, parking, et cetera. Illegal fireworks, illegal fires, public urination, public defecation, harassment on the streets, soup kitchens.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-06

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And there just wasn't any enforcement in your mind of those laws prohibiting those behaviours?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-10

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

A lot of the time, I had -- I hadn't spoken to officers directly. I had made calls to Bylaw specifically detailing the incidences that were occurring, and on one such occasion I described fireworks in the vicinity of gasoline and other open fires, as well as things like alcohol and drugs. So that to me presented a safety issue, and therefore I reported it. However, as a result of my report nothing came to -- nothing came to it, and I was informed that the officers on the ground were to keep things safe despite the reality of the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-13

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

So in essence, the complaints that you made didn't result in enforcement?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-23

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And you mentioned that you obtained an injunction in the context of your class action lawsuit that prohibited honking, and that for a time after the injunction was granted the honking diminished but it returned after a time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 59 02-059-26

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

That is correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-05

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And would it be fair to say that it returned after a time because your injunction wasn't being enforced?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-06

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I would say that I can't speak to exactly why it occurred, but I am -- I would feel that enforcement would be a contributing factor.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-09

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Did you see any enforcement of your injunction?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-12

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

All right, those are my questions. Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Thank you very much. And the next is the Ottawa Coalition. Any examination there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-17

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-21

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

I just have a few questions for both of you. Ms. De La Ronde, can you just confirm approximately how long have you been living in Downtown Ottawa?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 60 02-060-24

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And have you experienced or observed other protests or demonstrations in Downtown Ottawa?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-01

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I've observed other protests in Downtown Ottawa, but closer to Parliament Hill. They did not come to where I was living. Never.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-03

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you. You told us, Ms. De La Ronde, about being concerned about wearing headphones or earplugs, about knocks on your door, about smoke, or maybe not hearing alarms. Why did you have that particular concern?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-06

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

I was concerned because there was the smell, and I was informed as well about gas spills on the street, that there was open bonfires, that they were roasting food out a few metres from my building, so there was such a potential for a fire, a huge fire, and an explosion. So I was concerned that if I could actually get those earplugs to work then I wouldn't hear if my smoke alarm went off or if people were pounding on my door to say "evacuate, evacuate".

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And Ms. De La Ronde, you told us a bit about the diesel fumes. Was that diesel fumes that you would just smell outside on the street, or did you smell them in your apartment?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-19

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

It was very strong in my apartment. It permeated drapes, blinds, bedding, carpet. It had a -- the whole unit had a dull, gaseous odour about it.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-23

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Did you do anything about that after the protests were over?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-26

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Yes, yes. I got -- eventually worked toward getting them cleaned, all of them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 61 02-061-28

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Ms. De La Ronde, you told us a bit about the honking and how you experienced that. After the protests were over, what was your experiences with honking sounds?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-02

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Anytime I heard a honk of a horn, and particularly of a large vehicle horn, I could feel it sort of ripple through my body, and I would feel that my nerves were still frayed.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-06

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

In the immediate days and weeks after the end of the demonstrations, what was your experiences with horns?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-10

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Very much like that. That -- I kept hearing them, like phantom horns, I kept hearing them in my head. I also had phantom smells too.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And by phantom smells or horns, meaning they're not there, but that's what you ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-16

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

They're not, they're not there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-18

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you, Ms. De La Ronde. Ms. Li, I just have a few questions for you. There were some questions put to you about Councillor McKenney and a Member of Provincial Parliament, Mr. Harden. Had you ever had any interactions with them or met them prior to the class action being commenced?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-20

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I had not. Perhaps in passing on the street, but nothing -- not -- they didn't know who I was.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And there were some questions put to you about the injunction and what impact it had on the horns. On the day of the injunction argument of Monday, February the 7th, were you observing that hearing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 62 02-062-28

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I was.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-04

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And were you observing or listening to anything else before or after that injunction hearing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-05

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

After, I did observe a Facebook Live video from one of the organisers who had ordered the truckers in general to stop the horns due to the injunction being put in place.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-08

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So what --- you were watching something online? What was it?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-12

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. It was a Facebook Live video I believe from Chris Barber, if I'm not mistaken, though I can't be sure as to which organiser specifically it was, but they had been laughing about our lack of sleep and something about giving us a break from all the noise.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-14

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

The -- what did that livestream person, what did they say about the injunction; do you recall?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They had said that they -- I remember they were saying, like, "stop the horns, stop the noise."

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-21

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And did you hear any -- did you notice or observe any connection with that statement on the livestream video and what was going on outside?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-24

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. Shortly after the video the horns had subsided. And for -- it was like -- like just sort of thinking back to it, like it's hard to not be a little dramatic, but it really was like -- it was like this respite that had came, and it was significant the silence that was present for some time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 63 02-063-27

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

You were following or observing some of the social media of some of the protest organisers?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-05

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

After the injunction was obtained, you told us about listening to a social media stream on that date. Did you hear or observe any other social media streams by convoy organisers speaking about the injunction after February the 7th?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes. I do recall after the first video, I don't recall exactly when this occurred, but the first video I believe that the organiser had believed that -- it's hard to say because it's -- there was a just words being spilled, but there was something about that we, not necessarily myself or the lawyers involved, or -- it was a general reference I think to, like, the City or the Government or just the opposition, really, that they were going to give into some demands, but after some time had passed, they had realised that no demands were being given, and to, like -- I don't remember the exact words, but there was a call to action to, like, just let 'er rip.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And let what rip?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-25

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And after observing that, did you notice any difference in the horns out in the street?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 64 02-064-27

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

Yes, I did notice that there were some -- I remember very distinctly there were some confused horns, because really it sounds sort of crazy to attribute these kinds of descriptions to horns. But whereas before they were sure I think, and like resounding, these were confused, almost as if, do I do it, do I not do it, do I do it, do I not do it? There was a little bit more hesitation in the honking.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-01

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And Ms. Li, just a couple -- final couple of questions. When we -- when you talked about measuring the decibel levels, where were you measuring that, was that on the street, or was it in your home?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-08

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I had measured the -- in reference to the decibel levels I had described, it was inside of my home, though I had taken some on the streets where it was much louder, closer to 100 or more.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-12

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And your apartment, don't tell us which floor, but is it above or below a 10th floor?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-16

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

It is above a 10th floor.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-18

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you. You told us a bit about bonfires, seeing bonfires. We're unsure if we’ll get any evidence about this from the Ottawa Police, but just from what your observations were, what were the bonfires like?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-19

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

They definitely varied depending on the location that you went. There were quite a few of them, some were small and just for warmth, others were larger for -- I think there was a pig, like a whole pig being roasted, and I think it was under a fire, but I can't be certain about that. But there was that and there were several bonfires down Wellington Street, often times on corners in intersections where there were people huddled around it, often accompanied by signs and flags,

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 65 02-065-23

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you. And then finally, you responded to a question from Ottawa Police Council about that, you had expressed or were thankful that the police were managing this situation. What situation did you feel that they were managing?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-04

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

I felt that they were managing my personal safety correctly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-09

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And what about it on the streets, did you think they were managing it from your observation?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-11

Zexi Li (Ottawa residents)

No, I did not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-14

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you, those are all the questions I have.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. Does Commission counsel have any brief follow up?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

No re-exam, thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-19

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Well, I want to thank both witnesses for their coming forward to the Commission and for their evidence. The Commission appreciates you coming forward. I also want to thank counsel for the parties, it was very disciplined cross-examination, a very good start, and so we thank you both and you’re now relieved of your obligations and someone can come forward and assist Mme. De La Ronde to --

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-20

Victoria De La Ronde (Ottawa residents)

Thank you, Commissioner.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 66 02-066-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay, thank you. While the witnesses leave, this may be a good moment to take the break and we’ll come back after the break. We’ll take 15 minutes, and when we come back we’ll proceed with the second panel.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-01

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-06

Upon recessing at 11:02 a.m.

Upon resuming at 11:17 a.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-10

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. I think we’re ready for the next panel. On est prêt pour le prochain panel.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Mr. Commissioner, my name is Jean-Simon Schoenholz, I’m Commission counsel. I’d like to call Kevin McHale and Nathalie Carrier as the next witnesses.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-18

The Registrar (POEC)

Mr. McHale, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Affirm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-21

The Registrar (POEC)

For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Kevin McHale, K-e-v-i-n M-c-h- a-l-e.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-24

MR. KEVIN McHALE, Affirmed

The Registrar (POEC)

Ms. Carrier, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 67 02-067-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I wish to affirm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-01

The Registrar (POEC)

For the record please state you full name and spell it out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Nathalie Carrier, N-a-t-h- a-l-i-e C-a-r-r-i-e-r.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-04

MS. NATHALIE CARRIER, Affirmed

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I just want to clarify, I will testify in English though. Sorry, sometimes I switch without knowing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-07

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

We can accommodate that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Oui, merci.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-11

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Allez-y. Go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-12

EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Mr. McHale, Ms. Carrier, could you please start by telling me your title at work?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I’m Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director of the Vanier BIA, which is the Business Improvement Area.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Kevin McHale, I’m Executive Director of the Spark Street BIA and Mall Authority.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. I’d like to pull up a map, just to help orient ourselves. If we could zoom in there? Okay. And let’s go close to where Parliament Hill is, if we can zoom in? So Mr. McHale, you see at the top right there of your screen is Parliament Hill; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 68 02-068-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And is Spark Street kind of the highlighted line there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-02

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct, that’s the five blocks of the pedestrian promenade.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And if we could zoom out? Ms. Carrier, where does the Vanier BIA cover?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It covers three main streets, Beechwood, Montreal Road, and MacArthur from roughly the river to Saint-Laurent, with the exception of Beechwood that ends when Havelock begins.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And those are indicated here on the map?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And did you have any engagement with businesses outside of those three streets during the relevant period?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Both Kevin and I sat on daily meetings, and we also sit on the board of COBIA which is the Coalition of BIAs, so we do sometimes get communications from others. I have family and friends that own businesses on Bank Street for example, and some of my businesses on Montreal Road or Beechwood, would own other franchises in others.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And you’re generally aware of the parking lot at Coventry Road that was used by some of the protestors?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Generally aware. I would say intimately aware since January.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 69 02-069-27

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Can we just identify that on the screen, please?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That’s right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And that location that's been pinned aligns with -- sorry, the one on the left, please -- that aligns with the parking lot we’re referring to?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In essence, both parking lots were being used at one point, so both the Hampton Inn one and the one that belongs to the city. They are joined together, but there are two separate parking lots.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And Ms. Carrier, the -- your BIA, as well as the Coventry Road location, would you describe that as being outside of the downtown core?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It depends who you ask and what's being done. Sometimes we're considered downtown because we have more urban issues that are, you know, homelessness, or you know, drug related issues, things of that sort. But for the case of an event that happens downtown, we would be considered slightly on the outskirts, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-14

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And were you liaising at all with any of the businesses on Coventry Road?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was, just by nature of being the closest BIA to them, at one point because things were escalating and there was a lot of complaints being made, I did begin to liaise with a few businesses there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. We’ll talk more about that later. Can you just quickly tell us, what was your previous experience before joining the Vanier BIA?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 70 02-070-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was the Production Manager for Ottawa 2017, so I did large scale public events like La Machine, Crashed Ice, Kontinuum Underground, and you know pre to LRT being created, Picnic on the Bridge, those kinds of things. I have 20 years experience in events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And did you have experience in that role liaising with the City and Ottawa Police?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would say that be more unofficially and anecdotally, because of the knowledge that I carry with me, there are things that were brought to this table that were flagrant to me based on the knowledge that I have as - - previously, as a large-scale event planner.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And in referring to things that were Flagrant, you're referring to events during the January and February ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct. So things that we saw that would be event-like during the occupation or protests referred to my previous roles.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And my current roles. We do events at the BIA as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. So for both of you, could you just start by telling me what kind of information, if any, did you receive from the City and OPS in anticipation of the arrival of the convoy?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would say that we received very little information prior to. In fact, it was mostly the BIA in ByWard that started requesting from our councillor. So to be clear, Councillor Fleury has three BIAs within his ward, ByWard, Rideau, and Vanier. And so ByWard and Rideau had started getting increasingly aware of what was happening. We had been speaking with Bank Street and Spark Street as OCOBIA, and they requested from Councillor Fleury to amass stakeholders so that we could better prepare for the weekend ahead. This was the week leading in, obviously, the week of the 27th/28th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 71 02-071-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I would say it was very minimal. Spark Street experiences a number of activations and protests and marches and such throughout the years because of our proximity to the hill. So communication was quite minimal. I think it was only really -- we started to receive some because some other BIAs and OCOBIA, which is the Ottawa Coalition of BIAs, starting making direct requests, as we were seeing this event starting to unfold, being bigger than what we typically experience in downtown Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 72 02-072-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. I’d like to pull up Coalition document, sorry, COA00000060. If we could just scroll down? So, sorry, scroll back up. So this is a document dated January 27th. And if we scroll down, is this one of the emails that would have been provided to the local BIAs?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 72 02-072-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 72 02-072-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And was this kind of representative of the information the BIAs were receiving in anticipation of the arrival of the convoys?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. The fact that we actually received it was kind of -- I mean, to receive something, again, because I think we were demanding some more input and support as to what we’d -- what we needed to inform our members of. And this is again -- the information provided isn’t really any different than what we would receive for any other activation or any other event in the downtown core space. So it really didn’t meet what we kind of expected from a level of robustness.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what did you expect?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We expected to see a bit of a game plan as to what the actions were going to be to deal with the mass of vehicles that were expecting in the downtown core, perhaps similar to what we see during -- when road closures and such are put into place for an event like Canada Day, where vehicles aren’t allowed in the core for the day, and barriers or city vehicles are used to limit access to certain parts of the downtown core. So really what we wanted to see was an action plan of how police and officials were going to manage the situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And would you agree with that testimony, Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I agree. I think we were looking for the plans that we normally get and receive or are shared with us leading into Canada Day weekend, or Winterlude, or those kinds of things. So in this particular case, we were expecting Canada Day type closures. And in the case of Vanier, that would only pertain to us as it pertains to any overflow traffic that often or sometimes gets directed to Coventry or would end up on Montreal Road or Rideau.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 73 02-073-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did you request that type of information? Did you or anyone else in the business association community?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

We requested from the councillor to have a briefing with Services, which we got. And when that briefing happened, we were surprised to see that that was not this posture that OPS and City were taking, meaning the -- you know, the closing down of the streets in the downtown core to accommodate the level of what we were -- I was seeing on social media was heading our way.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

What kind of information was provided during those briefings?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To me, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- specifically, so ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Sorry, to clarify, ahead of the convoy’s arrival.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Ahead of the convoy, it was a protest that was slightly unusual because of the nature of the trucks; right? Normally when we have protests, it’s -- there’s busses that arrive and drop off people and then an event happens and they get back on busses and leave. In this case, the trucks were the protestors in many ways. So there was some level that it was going to be complex because of the trucks. But for the most part, we were told, you know, by the end of the weekend, everything should be good and everyone will likely be gone.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 74 02-074-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And would you agree with that, Mr. McHale?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I would agree.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-09

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And was that similar to the -- were you receiving information that was similar to what you’d received in other large-scale events, Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was a lack of information for something that we deemed and I deemed having done large scale events on that very particular space. You know, La Machine ran from ByWard all the way to the museum and back. There was actually a Saturday night event that was here. We spent two years planning that because of the sheer level of people and the machines themselves were big. This was -- and so there was really no information, in our opinion, or it didn’t seem to be -- it didn’t seem to be taken as seriously as other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Now if we can -- if you can take a look at paragraph 4 here on the screen, it says: “All open-source information in our interactions with Freedom Rally organizers indicate this will be a significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period.” (As read) Did anyone during those briefings provide any explanation for what was meant by “significant and extremely fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period”?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 75 02-075-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think that there was an unpredictability about this event. There was reference to there being multiple organizers. But I don’t think we were given much more. Not to my knowledge, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- or my recollection.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, I would -- the feeling I have when I read a line like this, probably pre-convoy protest, would be that this is just kind of an open-ended protect yourself, saying that, you know, if some of the organizers decide to stay, we don’t know exactly. I mean, it’s not uncommon to see this kind of language, I think, in kind of an announcement like this. But again, our typical experience with other protests in the area are that people come, they protest, and they leave in a reasonable manner and where, at the time, when they say they will.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what was the impression you got from the communications from Ottawa Police Services?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

That’s the feeling I had going into that weekend, yes, with the communication that we had received. Again, it seemed fairly low key from what we were receiving. My personal feeling was it was a little bit similar to the farmer’s protests that we had a number of years ago in the Ottawa core where a group of farmers came through and brought in tractors and other heavy equipment and were here for a day or so and then left. So it was kind of my feeling of it, was, again, having been on Spark Street for nine years and working in the core for 20, that this would be a loud boisterous weekend event and that by Monday morning I’d be trying to figure out how to clean up my street, which wasn’t the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 76 02-076-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

To clarify, was that your own assessment of the incoming convoy?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct. Yes. It’s my own assessment. Again, that’s taking that assessment based upon the information we were provided.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Right. Thank you. Did anyone during these meetings with city and police officials ask why access to the downtown core was not being blocked, Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I feel like at some point all the BIAs there, there were five of us, did. I remember my colleague Kalin from ByWard certainly, you know, making mention to why this wasn’t happening or why couldn’t we block streets like we do often for protestor events, why couldn’t we prevent access to our core. There was no real answer to that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 77 02-077-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

You don’t remember any specific response to those questions?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I remember Chief Sloly saying publicly, and not specifically to our daily briefings, but publicly saying things to the order of “I can’t stop trucks from driving in the City of Ottawa. I can’t stop vehicles from driving in the City of Ottawa,” which was baffling to me personally as an events person, because we had and we do often for events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Mr. McHale, do you recall any specific response to that question?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, I -- the response would be what Nathalie alluded to, which is that basically they didn't have the rights to stop the vehicles from coming in.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did they provide information on why that was?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, nothing written.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Who from the City of Ottawa was participating at these meetings, Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It evolved. So in the beginning, it was basically the three BIAs we added in, the three BIAs being Rideau, Byward and Vanier. We added in Bank Street and Sparks. And there was bylaw, traffic, so a series of city services, bylaw, traffic, police, OPS, our NRTs, which is our neighbourhood resource team members, which is a police term for police that are dedicated to specific problematic areas, for lack of a better term, like Byward and Vanier and other areas. And, you know, there was -- I recall -- it was evolving. So depending on the day, depending on what was happening and as the situation was evolving, people would come in and out of these meetings daily based on availability or -- I mean, there's certainly city management services. ACOBIA was there, so Michelle, the executive director of ACOBIA.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 78 02-078-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did the Mayor of Ottawa or the City Manager of Ottawa ever participate?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I -- yeah, I don't know.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-10

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I can't recall. I don't believe the mayor participated on one of these calls. I believe someone from the staff was on the call a couple times. Really, on the political side, the call was driven by Matt Fleury, councillor for Vanier. And he and his staff hosted the call every day and there'd be mixing in. Councillor McKenney was on the call a couple of times. Who else?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I remember this ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Mona Fortier, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I'm so sorry, go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, no. The MP for Vanier, Mona Fortier, was on the call as well, yeah. Joel Harden was on the call as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Later in -- when the occupation became the occupation and not a protest, the call of roughly 20 people was 70 people at times daily. So there were MPPs, MPs that would join in on those calls. But for the most part, the senior city person in -- to my recollection was Kim Ayotte, who was Emergency Services, so he was the person sort of speaking on behalf of fire, paramedics and obviously police, when police wasn't on the call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 79 02-079-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

No, finish your thought, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was going to say, oftentimes, the police representatives we had on the call are not people that I would consider senior OPS that I would have seen in other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So did any of the senior OPS officials, former Chief Sloly, Deputies Bell and Ferguson, did they attend?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have a recollection of Chief Sloly joining the first week, so between the first and second weekends, there -- I don't recall what day exactly, but there was one call that he was on with us.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, he was on one or two calls at the very beginning, and then as the situation continued, he was no longer on the call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-21

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And the deputies, did they attend?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No, generally, police representation was Constable Lemay, who was the community officer ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 80 02-080-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

--- was the primary police contact on the phone call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And there was -- and I apologize. I do not remember her name, but I believe she was the deputy who came once or twice on the call as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Chris Ferguson.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And do you recall -- so you say Chief Sloly attended once at that first week, so after the first weekend. Do you recall, you know, anything specific that he said during his attendance?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This is difficult because these are people we work with. These are people that we rely on. I remember being scared personally. I was -- because I remember the Chief saying at one point, "You guys are scared. I get it. I'm scared too." And I thought if the Chief of Police is scared, something much bigger is happening here than a protest, and that personally scared me, and I think a lot of us on that call were shaken. There was also a sense that week that things were starting to get shaken up. You know, there was instability. We -- I sensed a sense of defensiveness, you know. Everyone was caught off guard, I think, everyone. I don't think any of us could have dreamed that this event, that we -- in our biggest thinking would equate to Canada Day, sort of, you know, the infractions that happen, the closures that happen, the people that come in, the disturbances it creates, the loud noise, the fireworks. None of us I think could have understood that that would actually get so much bigger.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 81 02-081-17

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So did you each feel that the business community, the BIAs that you represent, that they got the information they needed to prepare for these events?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-06

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, no. Despite us asking vehemently daily. There was no ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-12

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

What specific information were you seeking that you did not receive?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So there -- things that pertain to businesses that are very specific in events like this, or -- and I'm sorry, I keep calling it an event. That's my knowledge. So things like will they have access to loading zones, how can deliveries happen, can staff get in, you know, where will the bus routes be, what -- and because there was so much fluidity to what was happening, there was no sense that the plan today was going to be the next -- the plan the next day. There was -- you know, there was some fluidity to it, but mostly, those are the things we needed to know. Can staff take OC Transpo and get from Vanier to their job at the Rideau Centre? Will the Rideau Centre be safe? You know, those are the things that pertain to businesses. Like, can we have -- can they have deliveries picked up? And can they still do click and collect? And can Uber Eats and Skip the Dishes get through? And to give context to it, though we're five kilometres away in Vanier from the downtown core, Uber Eats was not servicing. They were not servicing. So unlike what could be said to have happened to businesses during COVID, businesses were completely crippled, and that has to be understood by this Commission, because there were no deliveries. There was no loading zone. There was no Uber Eats. There was no clients in the stores. A lot of the protesters that arrived did support businesses and I'm not going to say that they didn't. They supported some businesses, but there was a lot of chaos. There was a lot of businesses that were deeply affected by protesters. And then there was this sense -- there was a lawlessness, if I can speak specifically to restaurants, which are often the most flexible of all of our businesses; right? They adapt very quickly. They can figure out things very quickly. But restaurants often had catering tables organized by protesters right outside their doors offering free hotdogs, free chocolates, free, you know, to everyone. Meanwhile, the business that was trying to stay open and survive was not getting any business.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 82 02-082-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. I'd like to pull up document COA-00000063. So the document we'll see here, Mr. McHale, is an exchange between you and Councillor McKenney.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 83 02-083-22

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 83 02-083-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

If you can scroll to the bottom, please? Yeah. Okay. So I'll just let you refresh your memory and read that exchange. So Councillor McKenney is asking if you need any additional information.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 83 02-083-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 84 02-084-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And your response is -- and if we can go up just a tiny bit? So on January 28, so before the arrival of the convoy you say, "I think we are good." And then continue. Can you just help maybe explain to us what that meant in the context of what you were just communicating to me?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 84 02-084-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, I think, again, it comes down to having been on Sparks Street for over nine years now and having a very veteran merchant mix. There wasn't initially going into it necessarily a lot of concern. So I, you know, again, having a bit more -- you know, dealing with protests and activation through the core all the time, again, I was -- as I said earlier, I felt that this was going to be large and boisterous, but not necessarily -- not obviously the three-week event that it was. So we -- and again, Sparks Street, we tend to be a little self-sufficient. So we were very active on social media, making sure we were getting information from OPS and bylaw, as we were directed to through Coms, and which was said the fastest way to get our information oftentimes was Twitter. And so Catherine did reach out to make sure that we had gotten what we had. And so again, yeah, it was very much I think we're good. The members are aware. Again, my members go into an event like this any other protest, not thinking about closing their doors, not really worried about -- concerned about staff. At events, as we always say -- I always say on Sparks Street, people march up to Parliament Hill determined to get their message out, to tell people about what they need -- what they think that needs to be told and say their piece and they leave satisfied and happy that they've accomplished what they set out to do, and then they end up visiting our coffeeshops and our restaurants, et cetera. It was only kind of into Saturday night, Sunday where we realised this was a different -- there was a different energy in the crowd, if I can use that term, and that's when I get a lot of my businesses, who on the Saturday were open or trying to open. Regulations in Ontario were starting to be lifted and they're being ready to be lifted on the Monday, on the 31st, and so our businesses were kind of actually getting ready for the provinces to reopened and to welcome customers back inside their businesses after a very long January, or yeah, January/December. So again, I wasn't overly concerned. There was a very casual nature to the conversation, and that's kind of how I speak and how I flow.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 84 02-084-11

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

In hindsight, were you prepared at that time?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 85 02-085-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

In hindsight, yeah. I mean, as I say, I was -- here, I -- you know, I talked with staff. Along Sparks Street, we have bollards that can be installed. We use them in the spring, summer, fall to control traffic. They're out right now on the street if you're out there today. Wintertime we have to remove them for snow operations. So we had actually taken them out back in November and so the street was open. And again, it was at that point where at the same time we were just sitting there say, "Okay, do you think we should put them in?" You know, we started seeing vehicles coming in, we didn't want them on the street for what we thought was just the weekend. So my event supervisor and I made the decision, you know, we -- you know, we had to dig out the holes, and they're all full of snow and ice, and dig them out and vacuum them out and we put the posts in for the weekend. And I think it was kind of a fortunate decision for us to do that because I feel like the street would have ended up as kind of a secondary holding spot for vehicles and other activities.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 85 02-085-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. We had reached out to Constable Sean Kay, who we had a conversation with a couple of months ago for another activation. The constable's job is to liaise with marches and activations like that. So we had reached out to Sean to say "Do you think we should do that? Is it going to interfere with Operations?" Again, having a knowledge of the street, in the past when there have been activations or incidents, Sparks Street can sometimes become a holding spot for, or just a cut through for police services or other entities, Operations and such. So we just did a reach out saying, "Is this going to interfere in any of your planning or any Operations?" And he said, "No, nothing, so just keep -- just let us know when it's done." So we did that. Later, at the beginning of the week, I want to say about February 3rd or so, we had to -- we reached -- or 2nd, 2nd or 3rd, we reached back out to let him we were taking them out. They had done their job, they kept the vehicles off the street. The feeling was there was two things happening then. I felt that the vehicles couldn't move anymore, they were kind of jammed into the spaces, and we had snow falling, and so we had to pull them out so that snow clearing could happen. What ended up happening was there was no snow operations for the next three weeks, so you had a nice layer of snow and ice on Sparks Street that -- for the remaining of the convoy.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 86 02-086-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So did you keep the bollards in for the whole period?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We ended up removing them. And what we realised from observing the crowd, the vehicles and everyone around us, and the way the groups were operating is we felt Sparks Street was okay without them in at that point because we didn't think anything large could get in anymore. There was a lane for fire and such, but that was about it, and that was being respected by everyone. So -- and it would have been -- again, these were mechanical, all -- they're not all automated, it's not a heat system, it's a pretty simple system, but by that time to get -- to put them back in was going to be very difficult after a snow event.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-15

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Had you ever put these up for another protest before?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

We had not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 87 02-087-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Ms. Carrier, I understand again, as you previously said, that you had some -- you liaised to a certain extent with the businesses on Coventry Road and visited that location.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And why was Coventry kind of a significant location in these events?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Because the businesses were right next door to the encampment. So to put it in context, there is a hotel, a parking lot for the hotel, a parking lot for the stadium, the stadium, and then there is a Canadian Tire, Best Buy, and a Starbucks that are right there. There is also, just at the corner of Lola, there is a veterinarian and emergency hospital for animals, and also, one of our organisations that we liaise with a lot, the Minwaashin Lodge, was there as well. So there is organisations that are racialized that are in and around that area, so in my expertise as being a business relations person, I started just checking in on them to see if they were okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

How frequently did you go visit that location physically?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Usually once a weekend. The weekends were definitely the worst. But Canadian Tire, we - - I must've spoken to them five or six times, different people at each time. Sometimes it was the person, the customer service person; sometimes it a manager on duty or another. The Starbucks, I would be going in to get a coffee, because I spent a lot of time at Coventry, and anecdotally I would ask questions and spoke to the manager once, I think.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 88 02-088-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So what did the manager or other personnel from Canadian Tire report to you throughout this period? And maybe try and identify which time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 89 02-089-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right. So in the beginning, it was, you know, they were selling a lot of stuff. They were selling gas tanks, and they were selling rope, and you know, all the type of things that I think you would buy if you were camping out. And they also reported that large groups of protestors, you know, by large I probably mean 3 to 10, would come in at once and then do the sort of thing that was, you know, that is now sort of cliché, but would go up to the workers with masks on and say, "Why are you wearing a mask? Why are you doing this?" They would disrupt the sort of general, you know, the store, they would disrupt the store. And there was also evidence or not evidence, sorry, there was things that were relayed to me that they -- the protestors had been putting up posters throughout the store that looked like public health posters, but saying things like, "masks are stupid, or masks aren't needed", or you know, so counterintuitive sort of things that staff... Nothing, you know, violent, but definitely disruptive. The most terrifying call I had was on the last -- the third weekend, where the manager was talking to me, and he said, "You know, Nathalie, I don't know if this is something but I feel like I should tell you. We've sold out of knives and bear spray this weekend." And that is something that I reported immediately to OPS.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 89 02-089-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Did you - - were -- did the Starbucks location, and their manager, report anything to you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Just disruptions. You know, there's a lot of LGBT people that work in OPS and, sorry, in Starbucks, and OPS as well, I'm sure, and that -- sorry. But you know, there was a general feeling of annoyance, you know, it was an annoying thing. It was, you know, it was fine, but it wasn't, you know, the pleasant sort of... You know, there was some -- some protestors were perfectly pleasant and lovely, you know, that should be said. They're not all homogenous; right? But there were definitely the ones that would make comments about why they'd be wearing a mask in a window, and the door would be -- you know, "the window's open, you don't need a mask", those types of things. And again, I think we have to put this back into context of the first weekend being our stores were still closed. You couldn't go into a restaurant that first weekend; that was reopening on the 31st. So the -- you know, the feeling that we have about masks today, really has to be brought back to how weird that felt then.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-07

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I understand that you also visited the Coventry Road parking lot where the -- that the protestors were using during this period; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Several times, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 90 02-090-28

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And you took some videos?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I sure did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I'll show a few to you. So if we can pull up COM, five zeroes, 744. If you could tell me when this was taken and where? [VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe -- I'm going to say it's Sunday night of the first weekend. Sorry, this is very embarrassing. It has to be said. [END VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So this was the first weekend you were telling me?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct, on the Sunday night. And again, it has to be put in context. The reason I took this video was to share with my colleague at OPS because that day we had been told that, you know, now we're going to move towards egress, but I was trying to demonstrate there is no sign of egress at Coventry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-16

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And when you say, sorry, you said your colleague at OPS. You mean a kind of a police liaison in that area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The person that was on our calls with us during -- at those daily meetings, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And can you describe ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 91 02-091-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-01

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- what was on that video? Anything significant stand out to you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, two things. So this video, to put it in context, is next to the stadium, so on, you know, depending on what map you're looking at, not on the hotel side but on the other side. What I had observed during that weekend, and it increased during the week, and certainly on the second weekend, was the sense of directing their own traffic, of allowing certain trucks in, or, you know, people in or not. So there was a sense of security that was -- security system of some sort that was building up. I observed large scale tents that, again, from an event planner perspective, signified to me, you know, organization, and places to work, and places to make food. I saw food being brought in. I saw deliveries being made. This is over the course of the four weeks. And I sawt hat encampment grow from an overflow parking to an encampment, a very solid, very organized, Blues Fest large scale event style, “We’re here for a long time and we have the infrastructure to stay.”

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-04

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Let’s just play COM00000743, please? [VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That’s the same night. The other side of the parking lot. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] Again, terribly embarrassing. Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So your understanding ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 92 02-092-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Everybody hates their own voice; right? Sorry. I just had to say that out loud. I’m nervous.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

So based on your observations that day, it sounds in the video, did you conclude that people were there to stay longer term?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I am somebody that is very savvy with social media. To me personally, it was clear that the 70-kilometre train of trucks that crossed the country was not coming in for a small protest in a day. And to me, that Sunday night was the proof that, you know, somebody somewhere had underestimated or not listened to the anger, frustration, that a large, at that point, you know, large number of people felt. They were coming to the City of Ottawa as the representatives of what they thought and they were going to stay there. They were going to stay there until they were heard.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I want to just show one last video. COM0000749. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] So when was this video taken?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe that’s the second weekend.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And what you see in that video are things that, again, as an event planner, I took because it drove me crazy, because there was a propane tank next to diesel with, like, wooden pallets packed right next to it, which no -- I mean, an event would be, A, not even allowed to operate, second, would be shut down and police trucks would be there, bylaw would be there, and as an event planner, I would be fined. And there was no fining. I saw tents that normally, again, as an event planner, both in my BIA role, but also previously, you need permits to put up tents like that in the City of Ottawa. You pay a permit, an inspector has to come, there has to be an engineer evaluation. To my knowledge, none of that had been done at Coventry. So I essentially had a festival happening in my community that was neither sanctioned, or was it protected by the normal standards that the City of Ottawa would adhere to. And in the city, there’s a thing called the SEAT Program, which is Special Events Activation Team, and any event that goes through the City of Ottawa must go through the very, very stringent process of being evaluated by that, and none of it had been done. I witnessed downtown stages on, you know, the back of a truck, you know, wooden things made, wooden things with diesel being poured on to them. Like, just things that were, in my 30-years experience, absolutely baffling, and quite frankly, you know, dangerous.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 93 02-093-25

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

There’s a few other videos ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 94 02-094-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 94 02-094-26

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- I won’t take you to because of time, but Ms. Li this morning testified that she saw urine in some of the streets.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 94 02-094-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-02

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Did you ever witness anyone ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-05

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

--- dumping urine somewhere?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah, I have a video that I submitted when I was driving to see one of my staff, and I was coming back towards -- on Nicholas between DND and University of Ottawa, and I was taking the video to demonstrate that there was lawlessness. Like, there were trucks parked on sides of roads and in the middle. This is an onramp to a major highway. And as I was driving past, I saw somebody, out of their thing, dump a chemical toilet. And I caught it by accident on to ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-08

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

From what you -- sorry, from what you ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right outside DND.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-18

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. From what you observed, were the participants in the convoy respecting the rules of the road at all times?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think some were, and I think a lot weren’t.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

And what did you observe that led you to that conclusion?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There’s another video that I submitted where, at Coventry, there -- I don’t know this for a fact, but I deduced that there was sort of a shift change that would happen. There would be a series of trucks that would leave in the morning, and some would come back. And they would sort of do this convoy style, obviously. They’re a convoy. So but on several occasions, I would be trying to sort of leave that parking lot, and there would be 50, 60, 100 trucks all in a row not respecting traffic, not respecting traffic lights, and sort of operating as a parade. But again, in the City of Ottawa, when you do a parade, you have to have a police escort, there are certain laws, it’s announced ahead of time what you’re -- you know, your trajet, sorry, I don’t know what that word in English is.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 95 02-095-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Route.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Route. Merci. And, you know, so again, these were things that would happen. I saw convoys of trucks -- sorry, like farm tractors driving down Vanier Parkway, which is not even a trucking route. You’re not even allowed a truck on Vanier Parkway normally. Like, none of our businesses could get a truck to drive down Vanier Parkway to come give them a delivery, and yet, you know, we’re seeing these types of things. So I saw a lot of that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-13

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Mr. McHale, can you describe, generally, the impact on the businesses in your BIA?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, generally for Spark Street businesses, the -- for the most part, especially after that Saturday, the first Saturday, I would say about 85 percent of them just stayed closed for the remainder of the protest and for the week afterwards. It was difficult for them. I mean, businesses that were open would suddenly end up with five, 10, 15 people in the store unmasked wanting to use the bathroom, or just to warm up, not actually getting any services, especially if it was a retail business. Food businesses initially in that first weekend, you know, reported me to -- staff would report to me that they had difficulty managing the customers coming in. Businesses were, of course, were under the regulations for the closure and such, so if they were allowing customers in, those customers had to be masked, there was limits on what they could do. It was impossible for them to enforce it. And that was something I think we did bring up on one of the calls eventually, which was -- and then, again, initially we were told, “No, it’s up to the business to enforce that. The business has to make the decision whether they’re going to stay open or closed. It’s up on the business.” And then it was brought to their attention it’s quite impossible for a single shop owner to police five or six people who are in -- determined not to follow the local health ordinances. So we did get some clarity on that, that eventually the -- it would be in the best judgement of the bylaw officer whether or not they would impose a fine on the business or a warning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 96 02-096-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Are you aware of any businesses that received fines for ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 97 02-097-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. None of my members reported anything.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 97 02-097-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It was said though -- sorry, I have to say, it was said that if fines were given out, they would be given out to the business, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- not to the people. So that’s, again, another deterrent to keeping your business open, because if you can’t control or have security there at your own expense, which ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- most of these stores didn’t have at that point. Again, we’re coming off of a two- year, you know, covid, and then we all got caught off guard right before Christmas that we were shut down again. So a lot of these businesses had no money for security or anything. So they thought, “Well, if I can’t police it, I’m going to get a fine. It’s not worth it.” So they would close.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-10

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Mr. McHale, do businesses on Spark Street typically close during protests?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No. When this started getting bigger than it was, I was talking to my Chair specifically about this, he’s been downtown as a business operator for over 50 years and has never closed his business. That would include during the G20 Summit when it was here a number of years ago, and other activations. It’s never occurred to them to close during any event before. This was the first time where he felt concern for his safety and any staff he were to bring in during that time, which led to him closing his business.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-19

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. What other impacts, Mr. McHale, on Ottawa businesses generally are you aware of as a result of the convoy?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 98 02-098-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, a business of mine who was publicly against the convoy as it was interfering with their business had their Google Review attacked. So they suddenly randomly started getting one-star reviews on their business, and that’s something that’s very difficult for a business to -- it’s an easy thing for someone to do if they’re ticked off, somebody to give someone a one-star review, but in this day and age of internet reviews and such, those things are so important to a business, and suddenly a business that had a four and a half star rating was suddenly trending at, I believe at like two, two and a half, which is -- there’s no -- it’s difficult to recover from anything like that and it’s very difficult to go to the providers, the Yelps and that and say, these are all fraudulent reviews. This is a bike shop owner and so his business at that time of the year is very quiet anyways, but he does have some customers coming in doing maintenance during the wintertime and such and the intention was to be open for his mechanics to do work through the winter, and during this period it was just impossible.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 99 02-099-03

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Those are all -- oh, go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 99 02-099-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was just going to say it should also be noted that the Rideau Centre in its history and in the history of Cadillac Fairview had never closed for a day, and even when the stores are closed the Rideau Centre is the walkthrough for transit, so it’s always open 24/7, you can go to the washroom there, you can go warm up in there. It closed and that cost them $2 million a day and they were closed for three - - three weekends, the worst of which would be Valentines Day and Canada -- and Family Day. And I think for businesses, we have to state how important that is. I have a business, Quelque Chose Patisserie, they have their bakery and -- sorry, I’m going quickly -- their bakery in Vanier they also have two other franchises, now three, but because -- and they had trouble at the Byward one so they closed down, but that affected the bakery and it affected also Westboro, because their Westboro location people were told to stay home, so they didn’t have it. So again, that is -- that losing -- for that bakery to lose Valentines Day and Family Day weekend carries them through the first quarter. Those two days it was said to me yesterday by that business owner, that carries them through January, February, and March. And again, that’s a normal January, February, March, not one where you were shut down at Christmas, not one where you’ve been shut down for two years. So it was devastating.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 99 02-099-24

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you very much. Those are all my questions, we’re out of time. But I do want to allow you if there's anything that I haven't covered that you think we need to share with the Commission briefly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, you can go. I’ve been going first, so you go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I just think it’s difficult to explain because -- it’s been very difficult sometimes for us to explain how devastating it's been for our business community and the downtown core. You know, I prime example I think was an example that was about halfway through the event I'm in line that night, after spending 12 hours on the street, in the line at a coffee shop in Kanata, just to pick up some coffee for the next morning for my family, and I'm looking inside this coffee shop and I’m seeing customers inside. And immediately my brain said, “Oh my God, they’re in violation of the health orders”, da, da, da, and then I realized, no, the rest of the province has been allowed to open, it's just downtown Ottawa. And I think that's the effect that this had, was because this activation happened for as long as it did, police directed the residents and visitors to not come downtown. It's something we still deal with today with the Wellington closure and such, and the reputation of the city and the downtown. We've already seen in tourism numbers this summer, they are down. We’re continuing to see that the reputation of the city has been -- as a place to visit, has been greatly tarnished and it's going to take us years to truly recover from that in the downtown core, if we ever do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 100 02-100-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have two things I would add. One, just to say to that, I have friends who, you know, decided that they would have this beautiful Ottawa staycation David summer, and they go, and they bike, you know, and they go to the market, and then there sitting out in the market at the end of this really amazing day, and then all of a sudden this protest comes up and people start yelling and screaming, and so this was months afterwards. So to Kevin's point, it's still happening now, there's still disruption to businesses. The second point I'd like to make in closing is that, and I don't know this has been tackled, but Vanier is the most diverse BIA of all the BIAs in Ottawa and we have the highest level of racialized people within -- or racialized business owners. So MacArthur specifically is the street which is the closest street to the convoy, a street that is very multicultural and has a lot of, you know, a lot of specific cultural groceterias, restaurants, those types of things. Anecdotally, there was a lot of -- it was very difficult for some of those business owners, and though they may or may not have closed, the sense -- and I think, you know, the speakers this morning sort of talked to that, there was a sense of like, foreboding in the city. There was this intense feeling, and specifically, one of our organizations that we worked quickly with was targeted, or not targeted, was intimidated to a certain extent by having men standing outside their windows looking in, again, comments being made, and this is a shelter for Indigenous women and children. So you know, it has to be said that the damage done, I think was somewhat disproportionate to those in our city that are equity seeking and equity deserving, especially our small businesses.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 101 02-101-22

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

Thank you very much. Those are all my questions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 102 02-102-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. Again, I’d ask, has there been any agreement on the order of cross- examination? Seeing no indication, I will call on again on -- in terms of the length of time that’s been allocated, starting with the convoy organizers.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 102 02-102-27

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-04

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Good morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-05

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

My name is Brendan Miller, I’m counsel for Freedom Corp. I've been asked to make sure that we introduce ourselves before we start. I just have a few questions for you, and just seeing how, most of these are what you call Brown and Dunn questions. I just need to give them to you so that there’s some other evidence down the road. I need to be fair to you, so I need to put a lot of this to you, okay?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-07

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Just to be clear, Brown and Dunn is simply, they put a statement to you that it may be contradicted later. So you should have a chance to comment.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-14

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you for that clarification.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-18

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So yes, sorry, I’m too lawyer.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I Was trying to fake it till I made it on that one.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-22

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

That’s good, it’s good. You did a very good job, you sold me. So -- okay. So I understand that after protests there was two funds set up, one being $20 million was set aside by the federal government to compensate Ottawa businesses affected by the protest, and another one for 10 million from the provincial government. Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 103 02-103-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And to date, or at least as of June, I understand that of the federal government funds, only 8.6 million have been used. Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I don't have that knowledge. I know a lot of my businesses took advantage of it.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I can't comment on the total, but I could state that the majority of my Main Street businesses -- my storefront businesses did apply to the fund.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And of the $10 million provided by the province, I can't find if much of that was used. Can you tell us, do you know any amounts with respect to the amount of money that was used from the provincial funds?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Thank you. You had said in your evidence, Ma’am, that Uber Eats wasn't available during the protests. I'm going to put it to you that it was.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay. I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Can you -- I’m giving you an opportunity --

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I’m not sure ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

That’s the purpose of this, so ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-26

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

--- I want to be fair to you. I'm going to put it to you that Uber Eats in fact was operating during the protest, and was in fact even delivering food to the protesters.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 104 02-104-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Then I would say there are likely times Uber eats was operating and other times on the weekends which I think our businesses would deem to be the most busy times, where a lot of them weren’t. There was a lack of drivers. I know that was a major issue, and then because of the closures, you know, there is zero access for it. So whether the app was open or not, I'm not aware, but I can tell you that many of our restaurants in Vanier and others could not use that service ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-03

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- as a method to sell their food.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-13

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And for -- sorry -- further to that, some would make the orders and they wouldn't be picked up, so there was an additional loss.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And did you yourself experience any inability to use Uber Eats?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did not use Uber Eats in that time, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-21

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. Did either of you have contact with the Member of Parliament, Mona Fortier during this time? I believe she was the President of the Treasury.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, she is the MP that represents Vanier, so I do, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 105 02-105-28

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. And I take it that when you contacted her, at one juncture you asked her to help you with respect to removing police blockades that were affecting the market in your area. Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did not, no. That was not my request. That may have been my colleague in the market, but it was not me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And in the videos my friends from the Commission played for you, those videos taken by you, you would agree that there was no honking or noise in the background in those videos, was there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In some there were, not in those particular videos, but at times there was honking. There wasn’t as much honking at Coventry, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yeah. And what time -- I saw all the videos it was ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Roughly 6:00 p.m.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-17

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Roughly 6:00 p.m. So ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, the first weekend that was roughly 6:00 p.m., on the second weekend it was 9:00 a.m. in the morning.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So it depends. I was there different times.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-23

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. But you agree in both those videos there’s no loud noises, there’s no honking while you’re driving and taking those videos?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was honking, yes. There was definitely honking. There was some loud noises. Whether they were a loud as downtown, no they were not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 106 02-106-28

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But there was definitely honking and depending at times too. Also, yeah. No, there was not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And were you aware that on January 25th, 2022, the City of Ottawa received an email from the Hotel Association here in town stating that the truckers and protesters had booked stays for over 30 days?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was not aware of the email, but I do know that Steve Ball from the Hotel Association was on many of our calls, especially in the third and fourth weekend, near the tail end of them, and he did make that aware to us. He also pointed out to the fact that there was a lot of hotels that couldn't be accounted for because they would be booked through third party.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-11

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So the hotels.coms or things like that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-19

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So can -- is it fair to say that, to your knowledge, that the Municipality of -- or the City of Ottawa knew on January 25th, 2022, that these protesters and truckers were intending to stay a lot longer than the weekend?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It appears to me that they should have known that, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. And you had mentioned that you saw some folks pouring out urine and other fecal matter or what have you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 107 02-107-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It was urine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-02

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Yes, okay. And what date was that; do you recall?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The date is on the video. I believe it was the second weekend, possibly the third weekend. I'm sorry, it's on the video, but ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-05

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

But it wasn't at the beginning?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It wasn't on at the beginning, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-10

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay. Were you aware that the protesters -- I know truckers had applied for and had been given permits for porta potties originally, but those permits were then pulled?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I am not aware of that, no. But I'm happy to hear that at some point something was permitted, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Well, that was the beginning -- at the beginning. And I just -- I'm trying to prepare you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-21

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And you had mentioned that you had seen or heard from some store owner that they had sold out of knives and bear spray; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

The Canadian Tire, yes. That's what ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- it was told to me.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 108 02-108-28

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Is it fair to say though that you never saw any protesters or truckers running around waving knives?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Most of the people I know that hunt with knives don't wave them around.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-04

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. Good. I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So they would be concealed perhaps, but I don't -- I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think waving around a knife states whether or not the knife exists.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-07

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Did I see the knives being waved around? No, I did not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

All right. And you never -- -

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Do I trust that the Canadian Tire was telling me the truth? Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-16

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Right. So and you never saw protesters with bear spray?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was not in the heat of it on the last weekend, if that's what you're implying, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-20

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

And despite that Canadian Tire had sold out of these items, you had no knowledge of who they sold all of these items to; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I had none, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-25

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So you don't know if you sold them to protesters or if they sold them to local residents; would that be fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 109 02-109-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I suppose that would be fair, yes. I mean, I suppose we could probably cross-reference credit cards at some point and figure that out, but I don't think that that is the case.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-01

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Credit cards. Well ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Well, I don't know.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-06

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

I think the feds will need to get another order for production for all that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Likely. Way above my pay grade, sir.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-09

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

Way above mine too.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-12

Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)

So I believe those are all my questions for you. Thank you very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the Ottawa Police Service.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-16

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Good afternoon to you both. My name is Jessica Barrow and I represent the Ottawa Police Service. I want to start -- we had a bit of a discussion earlier, we heard a bit of a discussion earlier about what information BIAs would typically receive as we're preparing -- or as the City was preparing for a protest, or an activation as you called it, Mr. McHale. And so I want to unpackage that a little bit and I'll start with you, Mr. McHale, if that's all right. So in terms of the types of information you would expect to receive, would that typically include the nature and location of any traffic disruptions?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 110 02-110-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-05

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

As well as any plans the police may have to mitigate any such traffic disruptions?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-06

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-08

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

You would also presumably expect to hear about any information the police have available to them about the expected behaviour of the protesters?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Within reason, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-12

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

As well as the expected number of the protesters?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-15

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And perhaps how disruptive the protest is likely to be to your local businesses?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, on occasion we've been told about how the levels of cooperation between the organizers and City officials, so, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-18

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. And you would expect to be advised where businesses could direct any concerns they may have, should those arise throughout the course of events; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-25

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

I take it though that you would agree with me that there may be circumstances under which there are impediments to police disclosing certain information to local businesses; is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 111 02-111-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

It's fair.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-02

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Or that may impede the police's ability to consult with the public or community members or business members and jointly agree on strategies?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-03

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-06

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

For example, there may be sensitivity or confidentiality around certain operational planning techniques that may be going on at OPS?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I'd agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-10

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

As well as in relation to any intelligence information in the possession of the Ottawa Police?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-14

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And I take it you would obviously agree with me that you could not expect the police to provide information to the public which is not yet known to them?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-19

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you would agree that the police may need to quickly or unilaterally adopt or change strategies to address the changing circumstances of an event?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-23

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

We spoke earlier, we heard earlier about the experience that local BIAs and in particular the downtown core have with events and demonstrations and protests in the City of Ottawa; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 112 02-112-28

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you've indicated that they're a fairly regular occurrence?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-03

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Would you agree with me that the convoy was unlike any of the previous demonstrations or protests the City has seen?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-07

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

More specifically, the size of the convoy was unlike any previous protests local businesses have seen?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-08

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-11

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And the volatility of the convoy was unlike previous protests?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-14

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And in fact, you indicated that previously businesses have never been required to close?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-17

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that this time they did because this protest was very different from all previous ones?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Many chose to close based upon what information or lack of information was provided to them, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-20

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

So I want to talk now -- we talked sort of a generalities, now I want to focus on the specific communications that were provided to BIAs in the leadup as well as during the convoy. I want to start with a document. It's an OPS- 403228. And if we could go specifically to page 6? Just maybe scroll down a little bit. Thank you. That's perfect. Can you see here that there's an email exchange between the Ottawa Police and the City of Ottawa?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 113 02-113-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-04

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Perhaps just scroll back up a little bit, so we can see the date. It's on January 26 at 12:09 p.m.?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-08

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And would you agree with me that it says that, "The community police officers are in touch with downtown BIAs and are providing them with updates to expect large crowds and traffic disruptions. We cannot tell them to stay open or to close, but some businesses may elect to close, so as not to get tied up in an anti-vax demonstration." (As read)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I see that, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-19

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Do you recall that as of this time, which is January 26th, OPS community police officers were in fact reaching out to local BIAs to share information in advance of the convoy's arrival?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-20

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, information was being sent to us and other organizations, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-24

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And this is 2 days prior to the beginning of the convoy starting to arrive on the 28th?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-26

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Dates are correct, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 114 02-114-28

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And businesses are being told that there will be large crowds as well as traffic disruptions?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-04

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that there is a possibility of anti-vax demonstrations in downtown establishments by convoy participants?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-08

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

But that ultimately, the decision has to remain with the businesses as to whether or not to close?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-12

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

I want to take you now to OTT-00000166. There's also a .0001 on the end if that's required. And if we could just scroll down a little bit, you'll see an email to the January 25th email below. That's perfect. So you can see here it's an email from Sébastian Lemay on January 25th at 11:38 a.m. And you would agree with me that Sébastien Lemay is one of the Community Police Officers, I believe, that was testified to earlier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, he’s not mine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-24

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

No, but he’s -- yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-26

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And you would agree that it tells us a few details about the upcoming convoy, and this is as early as January 25th; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 115 02-115-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-02

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

“The Ottawa Police are in the process of continually monitoring the progression of the convoy.” (As read) Correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-03

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes, sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-08

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

That: “They can expect significant traffic disruptions.” (As read)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-12

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

That: “Police resources will be deployed to mitigate safety risks.” (As read)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-13

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-16

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And it points you to where you can go to receive regular updates?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, as we always check regardless.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-19

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. And then, of course, it promises to disseminate any new information as it’s being received? And would you agree that further information subsequent to this was disseminated in a similar fashion from either this Community Police Officer or others that were local to your area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes. We’d get other emails similar in nature and broadness.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 116 02-116-27

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Great. Ms. Carrier, I want to turn to you, if you wouldn’t mind, for a minute. I’m going to take you to OPB0001257. Thank you. So this is the minutes of the Ottawa Police Services Board’s special meeting that took place at 1:00 p.m. on January 26th. If we could turn to page 2 of that document, we see an agenda item that reads: “Operational Briefing on Weekend Demonstrations” and it’s the Chief’s report. Did you watch this meeting?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-15

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

So we may not need to go through all this since you obviously watched the meeting, but would you agree that the meeting informed community members on the fact that this was a fluid event that could go on for a prolonged period? And we of course saw this same sentence in another communication as well? Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree that that’s the information that was made to all public, yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-22

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that the event was unpredictable?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-26

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And that existing intelligence was that protestors were peaceful, but that they would update if that were to change?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 117 02-117-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-02

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

And if we turn to page 4 of this document, the second last bullet, we can see here that there’s questions being asked by Councillor Fleury, and we see here in response some advise to business owners. Is that fair?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry, the second last bullet? Or the ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-07

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sorry, it starts, I guess, the last bullet.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-11

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

If you keep scrolling. Yeah, okay. So sorry, the second bullet on page 5. There’s a question raised in relation to the BIAs in particular.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, I do remember that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-15

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Okay. And do you recall that there was also information at this point that the police were anticipating numbers in the one to 2,000 range, but that even within the hour, they expected that that was information that was continuing to change?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-16

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, I remember that, but that’s not a lot of people normally. So again, that doesn’t -- I just want to state, because I think it’s important to state the context. Three thousand (3,000) people on Parliament Hill is not a lot of people. Like, when you look at what the numbers are on Canada Day. So again, it doesn’t point to something that I would look at that and go, “Oh, wow. Three thousand (3,000) people. We’re going to be, you know, in this ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 118 02-118-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- for the long run.” So 3,000 people is not a ton of protestors, no.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-02

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

But they were indicating that they were giving you the information they had at the time, and that as that changed, they were going to update the information; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct. And again, this wasn’t to BIAs. This was to the public.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-08

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. But you were permitted to attend and did in fact attend; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-10

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I just want to point out you’re out of time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-12

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

So if you want to wrap up or get to a point?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

A lot of this, I think, has been a bit repetitious.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-18

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sure. I’m happy to wrap it up. I just want to ask a couple more questions to you, Ms. McHale. Is it true that you were a fairly frequent ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Ms. ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-24

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Sorry, Mr. McHale, Ms. Carrier. You were in frequent communication with your Community Police Officer throughout that time?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So that’s actually a very good question, because our NRTs in Vanier were pulled from us and taken downtown. So I was not in communication with my own normal OPS people with who I transige. I don’t know what that word is in English, but that I work with every single day. I was in liaison with the community officer for the ByWard, who was now doing five BIAs.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 119 02-119-28

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

So you were speaking with, I believe, Cst. Lemay; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-09

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. Okay. And you would frequently ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But that -- just so we’re clear, that’s not the constable I would normally deal with.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-12

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Right. But you were in communication with ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Mine were taken away.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-16

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- someone from Ottawa Police; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-19

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Yeah. And he was responsive?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-22

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Yes. And you had raised complaints or concerns ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-25

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- or information you had found on social media, for example?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes. So there was a sense that it -- he didn’t necessarily have the -- I don’t know how to explain it, but he’s not a senior level executive of the Ottawa Police Force.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 120 02-120-28

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Would he indicate though, in response to those emails, that he was passing the information along ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-07

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- to whomever maybe would be that senior individual?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-10

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

Okay. Those are my questions. Thank you ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-13

Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)

--- both for your time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-14

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you. Now -- okay. Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-15

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Can I ask you to start with -- both of you, separately, would you agree that the event that you described, this protest was, in your experience, unprecedented?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-18

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-22

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

As to its scale?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-25

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

As to the demeanour of the protestors?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 121 02-121-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-01

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And equally, as to the police response? There was a larger police response to this protest or occupation than you had seen ever before?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-02

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would say at the end of the occupation there was a larger police presence than before. I would say that from my vantage point, where my office was and where I’m located, that the police presence throughout didn’t appear to be much larger to me, visually, compared to other events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. Over a longer duration obviously?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-13

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

You would agree, Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree with what Kevin said, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

In the beginning, not so much, but near the end, definitely more.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-18

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Understood. Now, in respect of the things -- and my colleague in the Police Service just asked you this, but I just want to understand it, and for the Commissioner’s purposes, neither of you is suggesting that you have better insight into the community of security intelligence or police intelligence than have police agencies; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No. Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-26

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. And you would -- I want to come to the meetings, if I can, that you had with police. And you’ve had police liaison officers in the community with whom you’ve spoken, both of you; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 122 02-122-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

M’hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And in that respect, you had the same, or perhaps better access to police than you have had in other protests? Would that be true?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I would say that the call initiated by Mat Fleury’s, and his office, allowed us to have a daily conversation with a community officer, or occasionally somebody slightly higher in rank. I would say that throughout that, we didn’t receive any additional insight or information more than what was being released in press releases during that time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Daily -- just stopping there, you had daily contact with police?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-15

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Almost daily, as long as they weren’t being pulled into some other action or meeting.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-17

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And which if they were, you would understood why?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Clearly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Ms. Carrier, you agree with that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would agree with that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-23

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And Mr. McHale, a couple of things. You had -- you told us, I think, that you had met with Chief Sloly, or he attended these calls, on one or you thought two occasions; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-24

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, again, we held about 30 some of these calls, so I can’t remember all, but I can -- would absolutely state that he was on at least one call.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 123 02-123-28

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Sure. Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And you thought perhaps two? Probably two?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-05

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Possibly two. And again, I apologize ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

--- that -- we had a lot of them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-10

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Ms. Carrier?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I only recall one.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-13

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. And you both gave statements to the -- of your anticipated evidence. You were interviewed by our friends for the Commission; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-14

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-18

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And did you read those statements before you came here today?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-19

John Mather, Counsel (POEC)

I’m sorry, Mr. Commissioner. Again, ----

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

I’m coming to that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-23

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

I understand the issue. Did you read them before you came here today?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

No.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 124 02-124-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. At the time you gave the information to the Commission, you did your best to provide information that was accurate and complete; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-01

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To my knowledge, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

And you knew it was important?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

You knew, for example, that it was going to be disclosed to, among other people, the lawyers and parties who are here today; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-09

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-13

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Mr. Commissioner, there’s one issue I wish to raise that concerns the rule about the use of these statements. And it specifically concerns the suggestion that Chief Sloly made a statement that one of the witnesses Ms. Carrier referred to. May I simply ask the witness to confirm that the statement that she provided to you was not found anywhere in her statement?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-14

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

I think you can go ahead and ask whether or not that's -- she's made that statement before, but ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-24

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- I don't think you can cross-examine on that statement, unfortunately.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-25

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

That's fine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-27

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

It was not put into evidence, and we don't know the circumstances in which that was done, et cetera, but I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 125 02-125-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

That's fair.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-03

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- I'll give you some latitude.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-04

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Thank you very much. Ms. Carrier, prior to your saying that Chief Sloly told you on a call that he was scared, am I correct that you didn't say that before to anyone?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To the Commission?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Like I've said it several times, yes, but not to -- perhaps I didn't say it the day of the Commission interview.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-12

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Well, do you accept from me that the statement of your anticipated evidence doesn't refer anywhere to the ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-15

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Wait a minute. I don't think that's ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-18

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. All right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-20

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

This is not a statement of anticipated evidence. I think that's been made clear.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-21

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

And I think that's going beyond what I allow.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

All right. Thank you. So then may I, Mr. Commissioner, because it's important, I'll simply say this, Ms. Carrier. Isn't it true that what Chief Sloly said on the call was that he understood why people in the community get -- including, presumably, from the BIA, were frightened in respect of what they were observing and experiencing, but at no time did Chief Sloly say that he was scared or frightened personally? Would that be fair to him?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 126 02-126-26

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

All right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think he said -- I think it was definitely in the intention that you were saying. I don't think that he was, like, I'm terrified and I don't know what I'm doing. That's not what I'm implying. What I'm implying is that he was very candid with us. You know, we had gone through a very difficult weekend. He was very candid with us. And he, I think, was relating that he too was scared. There are things that were happening that -- you know, there was a lot going on.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-08

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

But that was not something that you have said previously?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I have said that several times previously, but not to the Commission.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-19

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Okay. And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-22

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- can you tell me, please, Ms. Carrier, on what date did that meeting take place?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To my recollection, I don't recall. I believe it was the Tuesday after the 1st.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-25

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

But you don't recall?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So the 1st or 2nd of February, I would assume.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 127 02-127-28

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. You would assume. Can you tell us what else the Chief described? Any specifics that he described?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

He described a very fluid moving protest, an occupation. He described what he had said a lot in the press conference, that there were lack of resources, that this was something that was evolving by the minute, that this was unprecedented. I want to say I have tremendous respect at that time for Chief Sloly, and I believe -- you know, I don't know what his intentions were, but I believe in that moment, it was fluid.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-05

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Right. Can I just leave it on this basis? Because, of course, you can imagine that your statement that he said that ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-16

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- he was personally scared, he's going to -- I just have to tell you, he's going to say ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-19

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

--- he didn't say that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-21

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

But instead, he was expressing why he understood people were frightened.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I would concede too that that was the intention, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-24

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

What I said.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-27

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

The expression of empathy.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 128 02-128-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-01

Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner, and thank you to the witnesses.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. That's -- the next is the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-04

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ROB KITTREDGE

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Good morning. My name is Rob Kittredge and I just have a couple of questions for you. For the sake of time, I will just address them to Ms. Carrier. Ms. Carrier, when speaking with Commission Counsel, you said that businesses were completely crippled and noted that access to loading zones, access by delivery services, et cetera, was an issue for some businesses.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-07

John Mather, Counsel (POEC)

Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner, there has been a couple references during this examination to these statements of anticipated evidence, and I think it's important that the nature of those statements get clarified before any questioning continues. Those are statements that are provided to Commission Counsel. They are not attributable to the witness. They are statements of what Commission Counsel anticipate a witness may or may not say. They should -- it is Commission Counsel's view that they should only be questioned upon in extraordinary circumstances, and they shouldn't be serving as the basis for these examinations.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-14

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

I'm basing that on a statement that was made to Commission Counsel that businesses were completely crippled.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Are you referring to the statements during the hearing, sir?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 129 02-129-28

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Statements during the hearing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Then that's fine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-04

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And all of these items came from the statement. I'm aware of the issue. So would it be fair to say that from your perspective, the primary cause of these issues was congestion resulting from illegal parking in downtown streets?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I think that was one of the issues.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-10

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

But specifically, the -- I'm talking about specifically the issues with regard to access to loading zones, access by delivery services, and those sort of things, with regard to those issues, would you say the primary cause was congestion?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry, when I consider congestion, I consider that a fluid moving traffic of congestion. This was not a fluid moving traffic of congestion. This was blockaded.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This was -- these were cars that were parked that weren't moving. These were loading zones. These were handicapped parking that were being blocked for hours and days on end, well beyond the normal ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-22

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

I think we may be in violent agreement here.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 130 02-130-28

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

The -- I'm ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-02

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

You'd say that illegal parking was the ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Definitely.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-05

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

--- proximate cause of those issues?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-08

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And does the City of Ottawa typically enforce parking laws and bylaws?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Typically, yes, very well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-11

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And in the context of the convoy protest, there wasn't any real enforcement of parking laws and bylaws; was there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There wasn't the usual level that we would be accustomed to in the circumstance like this.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-15

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And you were not satisfied with the level of enforcement?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I will be honest and tell you that this was not a problem that was specific to Vanier, but on behalf of my colleagues and BIAs that are central, we were not satisfied with the level to which ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- those types of things were being dealt with.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-25

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Thank you. You mentioned that unlicensed free food services were being operated on the sidewalks immediately outside Ottawa restaurants and that this negatively impacted restaurant revenues. Do you remember making that statement today?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 131 02-131-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-04

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Does the City of Ottawa typically allow unlicensed food services to operate on city sidewalks?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Absolutely not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-08

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

In the context of the convoy protest, there was no real enforcement of food licensing requirements; was there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-09

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

All right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And I can tell you, I just ran an event where there was two people serving food, local businesses, and they were more enforced ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- than anything I saw then.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-18

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

Right. You also stated that you saw tents set up -- I believe this was -- oh, and I'll -- you indicated that -- or it was indicated that many businesses chose to close during the convoy protests and that this was a choice and not a requirement. Do you remember that statement being made by your colleague?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I do remember that statement being made by my colleague.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-26

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

And but some businesses chose to remain open and did quite well revenue wise due to the increased foot traffic resulting from the protest; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 132 02-132-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Some I think did well, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-04

Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)

All right. Well, those are my questions. Thank you very much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, they did not? I don't know. I -- I'm not the best person to answer that question, but sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-08

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Next is the counsel for the Government of Canada.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-11

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you, Commissioner. And sorry to single you out, Ms. Carrier, but I wanted to ask you just a few questions about your emails. My name is Brendan van Niejenhuis and I'm one of the counsel for the Government of Canada.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-20

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Could we call up COA-00000073? While that's coming up, Ms. Carrier, you provided some of your own content that we watched earlier to the Ottawa Police Services, but you also provided some open-source social media content from what you found online; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And that was usually to a Sébastien Lemay there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 133 02-133-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Was that your usual contact?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

During the occupation, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And so this item here, if we can just go down to the bottom, you're providing Sébastien Lemay with a link to a TikTok Live; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you say it's Ottawa jam the airport?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

What do you recall or what was your interpretation of what you saw and sent to him?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-15

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe that specific TikTok Live was Pat King TikToking Live, so broadcasting live from his car, stating that he and other vehicles were leaving Coventry and on our way to the airport to disrupt the airport as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. If we can go to another example, it's COA-00000118. And again, if we just go to the bottom here, this is on February the 8th; is it?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It looks like, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-26

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yes, and you sent again another TikTok Live to Sébastien Lemay at the Ottawa Police Service?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 134 02-134-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct, yes, I did.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-02

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Yes. You say, "On this TikTok Live, they are openly discussing tactics for breaking laws." (As read) Right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-03

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Do you recall anything about the specific content of this TikTok Live that you are reporting to him?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was a lot that I sent, but I believe in this particular one was references to diesel cans being filled with water and not diesel to confuse police officers. And there -- and I don't recall the rest.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I apologise. I did not review this particular slide.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

No, that's fine. That's part of the nature of the TikTok live is that it ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- is it ephemeral or it goes away after the stream is done generally?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-22

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Yes, although you can save copies of -- you can record your screen on your phone. So ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So often TikTok lives will be rebroadcast as non-live events.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 135 02-135-27

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And in fact, if you go up to the top of this document, you see Sebastien LeMay's reply to you addresses that precise question; right? "Do you know if there is a way to view TikTok lives after the fact?" (As read) Right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-08

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And you've just told us that you can do that if -- am I correct, that that's only if the streamer actively chooses the -- chooses to make their TikTok Live available as a live replay?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-09

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

To be clear, I am not a TikTok expert, I'm just a hockey mom that watches way too much TikTok. But my knowledge is -- and certainly during this period. To my knowledge, the person can take their video and rebroadcast it, but also if I am watching your TikTok, I can record my screen and then share a version of that. So there are times after this where there were TikTok's that I recorded parts of the screen for my own posterity to remember.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-13

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

But there's a large volume, as you say, out there that you were looking at in large volume that from time to time you would send on to the police; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-21

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I wouldn't say a large volume that I sent on to them, but I would certainly report back to them, and Sebastien, and in the daily meetings there were things that I would report from what I had seen the night before.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 136 02-136-25

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And you weren't in a position to be able to record large volumes of it for ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I was not in that situation.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-05

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. Can we go lastly to COA 6068? But you were asked earlier about complaints that you had received from members of your BIA and their contacts, and some of those questions were about being informed that the Canadian Tire Store near Coventry had sold out of bear spray; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This particular one, I believe is the -- oh, yes. This particular email is not the bear spray email.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-14

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

This is not, that's correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-19

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

But I'm just reminding you that you were asked about that earlier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Oh, yes. Yes, I was asked about this earlier. So I would report back on some of the things that I would hear from the manager.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-22

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Sure. And here again, this is -- this is, you know, the top is Sebastien LeMay thanking -- it's Sebastien LeMay thanking you for sending this along; right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 137 02-137-25

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-01

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

And if you go to the very bottom of this what you're forwarding here, the -- if you keep going to the very bottom email from February the 10th, do you see that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-02

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I do.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-06

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

This is what you're relying on, that the Canadian Tire, at least according to what you have been told, has also sold out of gas cans, Canadian flags ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-07

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-11

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

--- and the powerful hand held horns and smaller marine horns?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-12

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

This was on the first weekend or, like, around the first and second weekend, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-14

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

And this was from my community association with who we work very closely.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-17

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Okay. And you reported that on to the police?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-19

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I reported it to the police, correct. There was a sense at times that BIAs were sort of in a position to have the ear of people, so there -- oftentimes our community associations will rely on us for those types of things.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-21

Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)

Thank you, those are my questions.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 138 02-138-28

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. And finally, the, or next is the Ottawa Coalition.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-01

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Good afternoon, Kevin and Nathalie.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-04

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Good afternoon.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-06

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Good afternoon.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-07

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

I think you're going to be a TikTok star after your performance today.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-08

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Oh, my god. My husband told me this was going to happen, and I said no. Sorry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Kevin, to start with, a couple of questions for you. WE heard that some businesses did stay open, you know, not which -- you know, notwithstanding the different people coming in with masks and so forth. Did you hear from your members or have any information about how those businesses felt they did revenue-wise as compared to they might at other times?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

A couple of businesses, we have -- you know, we have a number of tourist shops on Sparks Street, so the owner reported, you know, he sold a lot of Canadian flags. They were moving out of the store very quickly. It's a product he sells regularly. But -- and then we had some eateries that would try to open and try to close, in particular in that first weekend. Again, they were just trying to serve customers. And some actually even saw it as a potential opportunity because again we had been under this unexpected lockdown over the Christmas season and through January. My members, we were all set to host Winterlude, which is a massive event here in the City of Ottawa, and my members, we had just found out a couple of weeks before that it had been cancelled because of the COVID surge. So a lot of my businesses were like seeing that, oh, maybe there's an opportunity again on a weekend to make some money. But the ones that did stay -- did open, most -- the vast majority just found it just impossible to manage the crowd and keep their staff safe and to avoid confrontation in their stores.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 139 02-139-19

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right. And just to confirm, I'm not sure if it's been clarified precisely in the evidence so far, at the time of the first weekend of the convoy there had been a complete lockdown; stores and restaurants weren't allowed to be open; is that right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-16

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And then after, when they were allowed to open, public health regulations around the mandatory of wearing a mask was still in place; is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-17

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-20

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Very much so.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-22

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And you told us that -- about some businesses concerned about being open because of having to enforce the mask public health guideline?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Did some of them encounter other issues making it difficult for them to open? For example, staff being able to make it to their location?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 140 02-140-27

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

I didn't specifically hear that. A lot of the businesses, again, many of our businesses because of COVID didn't have staff. Where they'd have two and three staff working a sandwich shop, for example, it was down to just the owner of the business. So that owner would try to make a go of it on their own, but that would be the unmanageableness of -- I mean, there's still limitations on the number of people in your business, and then again, you -- getting a large group of people in your place and trying to manage that crowd, it was quite difficult for them.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 141 02-141-02

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

The -- you told us that some of the information that you were told to get from the Ottawa Police was by following social media and so forth ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 141 02-141-12

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 141 02-141-15

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

--- of the police. Can you recall, were the Ottawa Police putting out any guidelines or advisories with respect to the population generally in Ottawa about going downtown?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 141 02-141-16

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, advisory to citizens was to avoid the downtown area if possible, which a vast majority of people just take as stay away. And we've seen that twice now with the motorcycle event a few months later and some other activations now. But businesses never get that instruction. The instruction to business has always been business owner must make that decision on -- with their best judgement. And so that can be very difficult for a business. Again, they feel the pressure to, if they do have staff, keep their staff. They don't want to cut their hours, but business has been so hard and so how do you -- you know, if you do have staff now you're paying them, it's coming out of your pocket, it's been -- economically it's been a very difficult two years for small business, and -- so it's hard to make those decisions. So even when they would try to just open themselves, again, you would just -- no one was coming into the businesses to buy per se, certainly on the retail and service side, they were just coming in to warm up and see if they could use the bathroom more often than not.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 141 02-141-20

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thanks. I'm going to ask you a question about a document, and I'll just the registrar if they can put it up. It was the OPS document ending in 3228. It's OPS 3228. And when you get it up, I want to go to page 6. While we're waiting for that to get up, Kevin, you had mentioned about Google reviews.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-11

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-18

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

I've heard about a local law firm that has suddenly seen their ratings plummet from these one star reviews. Have any of your members heard of any way to correct that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-19

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

You can contact the Google or Yelp and look to provide evidence as to why that could happen.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-23

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And just to follow on. If you followed up with Google several times about that, any other tips or guide?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-25

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

They're a bit of a beast to deal with, yes.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 142 02-142-28

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thanks. Okay, great. So this is OPS 3228. Can you roll to the -- just the end of this page? Okay, just stop there, actually: "So our community police officers are in touch with Downtown BIAs in providing with updates to expect large crowds and traffic obstruction." (As read) So that was the information that was put to you by the Ottawa Police Council. Can you just go down, keep going down? Keep going. Okay, here. Here, this is internal Ottawa Police. They're talking about what information should be provided to BIAs: "Hi Julie. Do you know if OPS is or will be in discussion with some of the BIAs that could be see big impacts?" (As read) And I think this is about January 25th.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 143 02-143-02

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

M'hm.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 143 02-143-22

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

"I recall OPS having these types of discussions for previous events, is that the case for this event? (As read) So just on that, when there's other big events that are happening, or big demonstrations, or protests, does OPS share information with the BIAs typically about road shutdowns or interruption in service or bus routes and stuff like that?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 143 02-143-23

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Yeah, the -- I would just -- I go back to the Canada Day as a prime example or Remembrance Day as an example where road closures are in place to allow the celebration of Canada Day or support our veterans and our past veterans, where there's a memo come out with road closures and et cetera, et cetera. It's pretty standard, in the corp. It's very rare that I would get something, per se, from OPS, which is very detailed. I mean, we saw that note come out that said call 9-1-1 or call 3-1-1. That's pretty standard in Ottawa for years that that's what you -- that's how you triage everything here. So but in terms of actually having a Zoom call or a specific communication going just to BIAs in our area specifically around Parliament Hill, which would be myself, Bank Street and Byward, no. I don't often get much.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 144 02-144-04

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thanks, Kevin. Nathalie, I just have a couple questions for you. Just to assist some of the people and some of the counsel who may not be from Ottawa, I think there might be some misconceptions about where Coventry Road and the location, the parking lot where all those trucks were set up, where that is in relation to downtown Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 144 02-144-18

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

So it's slightly northeast five kilometres from downtown Ottawa.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 144 02-144-25

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So it's -- okay. So it's ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 144 02-144-27

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But it is joined -- so you can loop from -- normally, you can loop from Beechwood to St. Patrick's to King Edward or Dalhousie and then back from Rideau, that turns into Montreal Road and so forth so.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 144 02-144-28

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Okay. And we've heard some reference at -- or we will hear reference about a red zone, that the Ottawa Police was calling the red zone. Where was the red zone?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-04

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I believe -- in the beginning ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-08

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Roughly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-10

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

--- there was no red zone in Vanier. I think it ended at the river.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-11

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There was no red zone in Vanier, despite me stating that there was more happening at Coventry.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-14

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

But the red zone was not - - Vanier was not in the red zone.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-18

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

It was, to my knowledge, I think, SJAM, so Sir John A Macdonald Parkway to I think it was Bank, Catherine, and then down towards the market.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-21

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So Coventry Road was about five kilometres from the red zone?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-24

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct. Well, it would have been at that point, like, at the edge of the red zone, maybe two or three kilometres ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 145 02-145-26

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

And the continuous honking, was that going on at Coventry in the same way as it was in the red zone?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-01

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

There were moments that it was very loud there and other times that it wasn't. There was a sense that that was their recovery area as well. There -- you know, that's where the hot tubs got delivered on the second weekend. There was, you know, food and there was a very jovial sort of atmosphere at times and other times a very tense atmosphere there. So there was, you know, daytime you'd see a lot of families, they were heading downtown, and then in the evenings, things would seem a bit more ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-04

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-13

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Depends on the -- there tension days; right? There were days that were -- it's a long period. Some days were different.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-14

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

So, like, it appeared that some people would go to the red zone and then go back ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Correct.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-19

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

--- to come back for a respite from ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-20

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

As I said earlier, there - - it felt like there was, like, almost shifts that were running. You know, people that would either bring stuff downtown, and then come back. There was a sense of, like, you know, almost, like, a base camp where sandwiches were being made and then shipped to downtown, and then, you know, there was -- I saw myself lots of jerry cans being filled with gas in very unsecure -- certainly not legal by normal standards ways, you know, off the back of a pickup truck in a big oil barrel, in -- or, you know, cisterns or things like that on the ground in Coventry parking lot.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 146 02-146-22

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Yeah, and you told us a bit about permits and so forth, you know, permits for tents, for example. You were mentioning about, like, engineering that to be checked for -- why would they be checked for engineering because of ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 147 02-147-05

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

One, most tents used in events have to be fire retardant. So if you're going to cook within a tent, it has to have a fire retardant fabric, so that if anything happens, it won't -- you know, it won't cause a huge fire. There's also levels of pressure, so often big tents need to be anchored either into -- with spikes into ground or they have to be held back by big concrete slabs. And often, an engineer has to determine, you know, how much concrete needs to hold it if the wind takes it or -- so there's lots of different regulations around building and to build it is high, so you would need fall safety to put some of those tents up, depending on, you know, how high your pole is. Anything over six feet that you climb on a ladder you need a fall safety training, for example. So there's lots of just little things like that, I mean, that people likely do in their farms or anywhere most times, but not usually as part of a big public event in the middle of the nation's capital.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 147 02-147-10

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Right. And these permits, what is your understanding of the purpose of these permits? Is it just a way for the city to generate revenue, or do they serve -- -

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 147 02-147-28

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

No, I think it's all about public safety; right? It's about public safety and standards of operation that are based on years and years of the city, you know -- Ottawa's often called the festival city. We host -- you know, I think there's 120 festivals in the summer here in Ottawa, so there's a lot of -- you know, it's really about public safety.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-04

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Oh, my last ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-12

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

--- out of time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-13

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Can I ask one last question or am I ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-14

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Go ahead.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-16

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Okay. You had told us, Nathalie, about the interaction with Chief Sloly and your recollection of what he said. Is there some reason why that resonated so much to you? Or actually, I should put it another way.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-17

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

I mean, I think because at -- you know, because at times like this, in what was considered, for us at least, a crisis, for a lot of people in Ottawa a crisis, you turn to your leaders to have a plan and to be stable. And I remember very specifically feeling, and I will say feeling for the sake of, you know, this audience, feeling like there was a sense that maybe our leaders were a little shaken. And that's scary.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 148 02-148-22

Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)

Thank you very much, and thank you, Commissioner, for the indulgence.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 149 02-149-02

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Any brief additional question?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 149 02-149-04

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ

Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)

I have one question in re-exam. Mr. McHale, it was put to you some questions about federal assistance. Were there any costs that that federal assistance did not cover -- or federal or provincial ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 149 02-149-07

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Well, there were limitations on how much coverage there was, so each business was 15,000 total. So -- which depending on the size of business, so while, you know, you may not have hit the full use of the fund, an individual business may have only incurred 2 or $3,000 of expenses during that time, it didn't cover potential lost sales, as an example. So that's obviously a big thing, so you weren't able to factor in your gross revenues lost that you could compare to a couple years ago or year before. Your rent may not have been the full coverage amount. The other side would be is that a larger operator, a large independent restaurant would potentially -- the rent would be $10,000. So the 10,000 or $15,000 was really insignificant to their operating costs. So it was -- I would say that the majority of my members did -- absolutely benefitted from that funding. It was very much appreciated, especially in the way -- how quickly it flowed into the downtown businesses that were affected -- I'll use the word unprecedented positively in the sense of how quickly it came in. Unfortunately, for a lot of businesses, it didn't quite meet what they needed in order to make the recovery from the three, four weeks of business loss. I would also say that because businesses specifically on Sparks Street were actually fenced in after the protesters, an activation was moved because the security perimeter was kept up for an additional week. So there was a lot of limited -- a number of businesses in the downtown core were affected for a week after the occupation was done.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 149 02-149-11

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Well, we're at the time for lunch. It's -- if we could come back at two o'clock, that would be much appreciated because we have a big afternoon, which will probably take us past six o'clock and maybe even past seven o'clock. So again, I want to thank counsel for respecting the timelines. That's much appreciated, particularly on a day like today where we have a lot of evidence. So we're going to reprise until two o'clock. And thank you to the witnesses. I forgot.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-11

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

That's fine.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-20

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Thank you both.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-21

Kevin McHale, Executive Director (Sparks BIA)

Thank you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-22

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Much appreciated. Un grand merci.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-23

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Merci beaucoup.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-25

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Retournez à ma ville natale de Vanier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-26

Nathalie Carrier, Executive Director (Vanier BIA)

Oui. Ah oui? C'est bien. Moi aussi, ma famille ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 150 02-150-28

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission is in recess for one hour.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-02

Upon breaking at 1:03 p.m.

Upon resuming at 2:00 a.m.

The Registrar (POEC)

The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-06

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Okay. Thank you. Merci. Vous remarquerez que j’essaye d’être ponctuel, je ne garantis pas que ça va toujours être le cas, mais c'est une déformation de vingt ans comme juge, alors je m’en excuse à l’avance, mais ça va être la façon qu’on travaille. Okay. So we have, I believe, another panel that’s ready to go, Ms. Rodriguez?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you, Commissioner. I’d like to call Councillor Catherine McKenney and Councillor Mathieu Fleury to the stand, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-15

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

C'est correct si je reste assis?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-18

Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)

Oui, oui. Oui, oui. Prenez votre temps. Take your time. Get settled down.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-20

The Registrar (POEC)

Councillor McKenney, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-22

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

I’ll affirm, please.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-24

The Registrar (POEC)

For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-26

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Catherine Ann McKenney. C-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E A-N-N M-C-K-E-N-N-E-Y.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 151 02-151-28

COUNCILLOR CATHERINE McKENNEY, Affirmed

The Registrar (POEC)

Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence to be given by you to this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-03

COUNCILLOR MATHIEU FLEURY, Sworn

The Clerk (POEC)

Monsieur Fleury, voulez-vous prêter serment ou faire une affirmation solennelle?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-08

The Clerk (POEC)

Pour les fins du procès-verbal, s’il vous plait, veuillez indiquer et ensuite épeler votre nom en entier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-11

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Alors, mon nom est Mathieu Fleury — M-A-T-H-I-E-U —, dernier nom, Fleury — F-L-E-U- R-Y.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-14

The Clerk (POEC)

Jurez-vous que le témoignage que vous allez rendre devant la Commission sera la vérité, toute la vérité, et rien que la vérité? Que Dieu vous vienne en aide.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-17

EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MS. NATALIA RODRIGUEZ

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Good afternoon to both of you. Can I confirm, you both had an interview with Commission Counsel on September 8 of this year? Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 152 02-152-23

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you’ve had a chance to review the interview summary that was prepared as a result of that interview; correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we have that witness interview summary at WTS.00000025. And I’m just going to pull it up here for you to see. And while we’re doing that, Councillor McKenney, do you have any corrections you would like to make to your witness summary?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And Councillor Fleury, are there any corrections you would like to make to the witness summary?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Yes. Please, as we’re waiting for that to be pulled up? Yes. Thank you. And do you know approximately ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-18

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

I can pull it up. I have it in here.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Oh, okay. Well maybe we’ll scroll down a bit. Maybe just tell us what areas ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-23

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

It’s the area about - - keep going down. Keep going down. Going down. I thought maybe it was above that.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

I think it might be up a little bit.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 153 02-153-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Let’s keep going up. I believe it’s on this page here above the harassment section. Let’s see there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 154 02-154-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

“Physical violence ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 154 02-154-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- or threats.” Okay. So maybe I’ll give you an opportunity then to indicate what needs to be corrected.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 154 02-154-09

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

So the paragraph that begins with: “Councillor Fleury’s home address was posted online without his consent. As a result, a group of protestors drove in a pick-up truck to Councillor Fleury’s home and attempted to intimidate him. He and his family had to relocate until the protest subsided. Councillor Fleury reported the situation to OPS, but he never heard back from them. Councillor Fleury’s wife is Chinese-Canadian and was subject to online threats and abuse.” (As read)

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 154 02-154-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So how would you like to change that witness statement? What aspects would you - --

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 154 02-154-26

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

They’re really three separate components. I would define them as -- the first one is any public office holder, our information can unfortunately be found online in some instances, and I believe that that’s how protesters were able to find my home address and show up. The second section, as a result, all the way to “back from them” is accurate.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-01

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

And then the final piece relating to my wife is about the abuse that we received as elected officials through email, phone calls, online.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So we will make those changes, and subject to those changes, the witness summary will be entered into evidence.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Now, I understand that both of you are councillors to the City of Ottawa. Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Can you tell me a little bit about the wards you represent? Catherine McKenney, we’ll start with you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-21

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

The ward I represent is Somerset Ward. We’re located in it. The boundary is the Canal to the Trillium Line, just west of Preston, and then north to the Ottawa River, south to the Queensway, except that Preston, it goes down to Carling for about three blocks and then back up LeBreton.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 155 02-155-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Councillor Fleury?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-02

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

So my area is called Rideau-Vanier. It is the communities of Lower Town, some would say the ByWard Market, Sandy Hill, which includes the University of Ottawa, and the former City of Vanier. My western, or where Councillor McKenney and I share a boundary is the Rideau Canal. So the first property in my ward is the Château Laurier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. Perfect. So I’m going to pull up a Google Map that we’ve created. It’s been shared with the parties. And the orange section on the left there, Councillor McKenney, can you confirm whether that accurately represents the boundaries of your ward?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And the area, the orange area on the right there, Councillor Fleury, maybe we can just go over where the boundary is, especially in the middle of the two. It’s a little bit hard to distinguish. Yeah. Right there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-16

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah, the Rideau Canal.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, that’s the Rideau Canal there. Okay. So Councillor Fleury, can you confirm that that area represents the boundaries of your ward?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And now I just want to take a moment to look at the geography of Ottawa as it relates to the events in question a little bit more closely, because as we know, there are people from outside of Ottawa that are watching and may not have a sense of Ottawa geography. We’ve touched on a few things this morning, but generally, we can see Parliament Hill, if we can just zoom in on Parliament Hill. There we go. And there’s a grey line that’s directly in front of Parliament Hill there. And that represents Wellington Street, where a lot of the protest activity was happening. And if we zoom out from here and we look at the areas that are south of Parliament Hill that are captured in your wards, Councillor McKenney, can you give us a sense for where the residential areas on this map and whether they’re confined to a specific area, or they’re kind of sprinkled throughout, or whether there’s a larger concentration in some areas?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 156 02-156-27

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Yes, of course. So the largest concentration is -- occurs from Laurier going -- you know, going south.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 157 02-157-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So Laurier, if we can just ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 157 02-157-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

--- zoom in a little bit? That’s Laurier there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 157 02-157-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Is that correct?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 157 02-157-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And it goes south from there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 157 02-157-27

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

And it goes south from there. And of course, Laurier from Kent going west.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-01

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

On Laurier, there are several high rises as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yes. And so we see Kent. We have the cursor right now at Kent and Laurier. So that’s the intersection there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And then on the east side, how far on the east and west sides do the residential areas expand?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-10

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

The densest parts are to Metcalfe to the east, although there are some residential -- some residences on Elgin, but Elgin is a traditional mainstreet. So Metcalfe, ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-13

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

--- certainly. And then going west, Bronson, however, Bronson going -- you know, past Bronson going down Wellington towards Sir John A. MacDonald Parkway also has some multi-residential buildings there as well. But Bronson, certainly in the Centretown area, is the border.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-18

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Councillor Fleury, where would the residential areas in your ward that were affected in this case by the convoy -- where would those be located on this map?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-24

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

I think the close -- the first location would be right beside the new Senate, former Union, which is 700 Sussex, at the corner of Sussex and Rideau.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 158 02-158-28

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, so yeah, that’s right ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-03

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Across -- right beside the Chateau Laurier.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-05

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, so we’re right there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-07

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah, across the street. So everything behind it is mixed use. There’s a lot of ground-floor commercial but a lot of low-rise residences in the Byward Market. And then along Rideau Street, you have these high -- very high-density buildings that are 20-storey and above right -- starting at the Rideau Centre with 90 George, you have the Four Claridge Towers; you have the East Market Condos which are on Cumberland; and you have a lot of density along Rideau. One street up -- one street south, which would be on Besserer, and you have a lot of density along Cumberland as well.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And, Councillor McKenney, can you -- if we can go back to the residential centretown kind of area. Okay, yeah, there we are. Can you maybe give us a sense for -- and we’ll get to the basis of your knowledge on this in a second, but can you maybe give us a sense for how widespread the trucks were when the convoy was in Ottawa? Where did they go to in terms of blocking the roads and kind of establishing themselves?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-19

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

So primarily on Kent going south, as far down as Kent and Somerset is as far the occupation ever really extended, so Kent to Somerset, Bank Street.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 159 02-159-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So just one second.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So let’s just get to Kent and Somerset for a second and maybe we’ll just -- we’ll put a pin in there just so that we can visualize it. So I believe Somerset is ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-05

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah, just up from ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Just up -- yeah, just in that corner there, right?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, right there. Yeah, so that’s Kent and Somerset. Are we able to drop a pin? Okay, well, we’ll have to, then, just visually visualize it ourselves, okay. So let’s zoom out from there. Okay. And then -- so that would be kind of the southeast -- the southwest corner?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And where else from there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-20

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Bank Street had truck parked on it down Bank as far as, I would say, Lisgar. So Lisgar is just north of Somerset ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-22

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

--- one block north.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, one block north of there, okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 160 02-160-28

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

And then Metcalfe and O’Connor but it would expand during the weekends when more vehicles came into the city on the weekends. So Metcalfe and O’Connor, at times, mostly on the weekends, could have a lot of vehicles parked ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-02

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

--- but it did expand and contract depending on the time of the week.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-08

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

So several blocks south from Parliament down to Somerset is about -- it was six or seven blocks south and then expanding maybe five blocks east to west?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay, thank you. And, Councillor Fleury, then, in terms of where the convoy expanded into in your area, can you give us a sense based on the map?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-14

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yes, it started in front of Chateau Laurier ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-18

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

--- so what would be One Rideau.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-21

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right, right there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-23

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah. Went through the intersection of Sussex. There were a number of -- you know, further down towards the Shaw Centre, further up towards George Street, all the way down Rideau Street, up to Waller.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-24

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, so we just got to go up on the map a little bit here.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 161 02-161-28

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah, they’re ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-02

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Oh, other way.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-03

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

It’s going east.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Yeah, that’s right. So we’re going that way now, okay.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-07

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

So towards King Edward ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-09

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

--- there were rigs along King Edward and there were rigs all the way to the Loblaws on Rideau, which is at Nelson and Rideau. So that was the furthest eastern segment. And then were sections of rigs beside the University of Ottawa, Desmarais Building on Nicholas.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-12

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Right, and we see a pin there just on the bottom there. Now, there’s a pin at the top there where it says “Shepherds of Good Hope” and I understand there was incident there.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Did the trucks expand up to that area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. So if we can expand -- if we can zoom out, rather. So we can -- it seems pretty expansive, then, if we’re looking all the way up there and then down to the residential areas in Centretown. Okay, so that’s very helpful to get a sense for the scope and breadth that we’re talking about when we’re discussing some of these issues. Okay, I think we can take the map down for now. Just a high level -- and we’re going to get into more details but I just wanted to ask at a high level how the residents in your ward were impacted by the protests of January and February of this year. Councillor McKenney, I’ll start with you.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 162 02-162-25

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Well, on the first weekend, people were braced for, you know, what they anticipated would be serious disruption. They were surprised when -- and frustrated and angry when the city and/or police allowed trucks to actually enter non-truck routes. So trucks -- very large trucks parked along Queen Elizabeth Driveway, for example, which is not a truck route, and stayed there for the weekend, and then coming down Kent, Metcalfe, O’Connor. So there was, you know, that first weekend, more of a bracing just to kind of get through the weekend. Started to see almost immediately -- and I started to receive emails and it was on social media -- symbols of hatred, you know, swastikas and Confederate flags, you know, Pride flags being, you know, targeted, so there was fear. Certainly, people that first weekend who were reporting back to me, and calling me, and emailing were fearful but they were braced for it and, you know, had been told that would it end on Monday and waited for that. So after Monday, when it didn’t end, it just became -- you know, in the words of people who were, you know, calling me and talking to me, they felt that they were under a great deal of threat, seniors reporting that they, you know, had trouble going out, they felt threatened when they went into a grocery store, you know, residents not being able to leave their apartments. I had to help on couple leave the downtown with a police escort on the first weekend. There was a Pride flag in their window. They’re apartment was targeted. Somebody had defecated on the back step. And then later that night, you know, a pickup truck with angry people in it came back and were harassing and yelling at them so, at that point, they felt very unsafe and we had a police escort them out. So it was, you know, a general sense of fear, terror, and, you know, dismay that they felt abandoned by their city and by their police.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 163 02-163-09

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Councillor Fleury, how about you?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 164 02-164-16

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

I’d like to add ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 164 02-164-18

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

So just to recognize that everything my colleague said is very similar to the realities I face -- that our communities face. I would add that the number of closures -- we have, in my community, one of the largest commercial properties, which is the Rideau Centre located at the corner of Rideau and Colonel By. There’s 300 business in the Rideau Centre. I’m told by the general manager, close to 3000 employees, and they were forced to close on the first Saturday and it took them about four hours, with help from police, to properly close the facility. Many of the businesses in the Byward Market -- there’s around -- it’s hard to give you an official because there’s businesses along Rideau Street; there’s businesses in the Byward Market. Many of them closed for the weekend and never reopened. Those who stayed open, many closed after that first weekend because of incidents with staff. And many incidents were reported relating -- there were a number of restrictions in place at the time? Mask wearing -- restaurants were not open. There’s a number of elements like that which created many incidents with part-time restaurant staff in the Byward Market and on Rideau Street. And then the non-stop noise of that first weekend, we have, as you've seen this morning and as we’ve encountered through the realities of walking through the site and communication with businesses and residents, just a non- liveable area for folks who lived in the Byward Market, lived on Rideau Street, lived on the northern part of Sandy Hill. Non- stop noise, the intimidation when they went out, specifically if they followed regulations and wore masks. There were a number of incidents where bus detours had to be conducted and we have communications with residents who, for example, waited for a Para-Transpo -- Para- Transpo is the accessible bus of Ottawa -- and couldn’t get to their cancer treatment because the bus couldn’t get there and they were not mobile. There were a number of incidents, as you know, and both Councillor McKenney and I, we have the LRT, the tunnel section. So if you want to access transit you have to walk -- go through long escalators to the platform. And there were a lot of movements between St. Laurent Shopping Centre and the downtown core. And many incidents on those trains that went unreported. And you know, fortunately OC Transpo did adapt but those first few days to weekends it was quite challenging. And so much so that many of the transit routes downtown just didn’t operate.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 164 02-164-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Councillor McKenney, were the businesses in your ward similarly affected?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 166 02-166-09

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Yes, they were, Sparks Street in particular and also Bank Street. Bank Street ended up being closed down with trucks parked on it, all the way south to just north of Somerset. So I would say Lisgar. Again, on the weekends is when it really -- things would escalate. The transit stations were taken over. There were makeshift kitchens. There were barrels with fires burning on the street. And yeah, it was impossible for anyone to move about without encountering the people in the city who were occupying the city at the time.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 166 02-166-11

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And I understand that during the second and third weeks particularly, both of you visited the site, walked around, walked the streets. Can you maybe describe a little bit of what you saw during those walks? I’ll start with Councillor Fleury.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 166 02-166-21

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Very different from weekends to week days. On week days it was more, let’s call them, permanent occupiers with the larger rigs. As the weekend approached, it was pickup trucks that would be parking anywhere and everywhere and kind of add to the existing weapons that were on the street and that tension that was existing.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 166 02-166-27

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Sorry, by “weapons” what do you mean by “weapons”?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 167 02-167-05

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Well, for us, you know, having the physical truck on the street created a big weapon in the spirit of the noise, the pollution of the fumes, the ability for folks to operate their businesses, to open, for us to offer services. There were a lot of rigs at the corner of Sussex and Rideau, and Rideau Centre is kind of that connection point on transit and for many of the access in and out of the market and on transit for routes that are coming from the western part of downtown and the eastern part of downtown. So not having access to that Rideau Sussex intersection created that congestion in that space. So I mean, I could go on and on but I think you get the picture that there were really really -- you couldn’t. You couldn’t live in that space. It was non-stop noise, non-stop pollution. You couldn’t get out because you’d hear yells. You’d get yelled at. There were a number of micro aggressions on the periphery of the red zone, particularly in residential communities which both Catherine and I lived firsthand and heard directly from residents. And then through the weekend it was this influx of pickup trucks who would not follow rules. Like, for example, in the market, you know, the Byward Market -- and just to locate you a little bit, at the corner of Byward and George Street there’s The Bay on one side. So there’s this big kind of sidewalk, if you will, that leads to Sussex. The road is pretty defined. It’s a one lane in each direction with parking bays on each side. Well, pickup trucks were just parked anywhere and everywhere in any direction, on the sidewalk, in vehicular lanes, so even if residents or businesses, for example like The Bay, Chapters, and so on -- their loading zone is right there. They couldn’t physically get garbage in and out or their equipment if they wanted to open. So you kind of -- I’m giving you an example. It was the same issues along Rideau. It was the same issues along Nicholas, and in different parts of the Byward Market.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 167 02-167-07

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. Councillor McKenney, what kind of issues did you observe on your walks?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 168 02-168-14

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

So I started to go out after the first weekend, Monday, when we knew that, you know, about 80 percent of the large trucks left. But the 20 percent that were left were remaining and had -- you could see no intention of leaving anytime soon. And as Councillor Fleury said, we would get this surge of people coming into the city who were sympathetic to the, you know, original convoy that had entered. I started to go out at that week, walk around. I would go through the convoy and observe. I would meet with residents who were feeling threatened. I delivered food to some people. I delivered pet food to some people, in particular, who were living in some of our community housing buildings who felt very threatened and not able to go out. I organized one -- what we called the safety walk so that we could come out together as a community. And that happened the second week. But you know, we stayed within the residential area away from, you know, where the convoy had taken root. We had organized a second one and we called it off because the environment just felt more threatening and I didn’t -- my fear through all of this and my key concern through all of this was the safety of residents that I represent. You know, there was nothing more on my mind than the safety of the people that live in the city and that I represent. So you know, again it would get the surge on the weekends and you know, I have stated before and I will again, you know, I was always careful when I went down, walked through the convoy. I was accosted on a few occasions but not, you know -- never felt that I was in any real danger. But walking home through the residential streets was always when I felt the most threatened. It’s often when I was threatened. You know, homophobic slurs, transphobic slurs, just you know, people recognizing me from media or other means. So it was more, you know, on the streets going home it was more those isolated incidents that were the greatest threat throughout the -- and that’s what I heard from residents as well. You know, it was uncomfortable. They had to stay safe walking through the convoy especially if they wore a mask, racialized. But it was outside of that where it was more so the people who were sympathetic to the convoy who were coming into the city and causing that type of fear.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 168 02-168-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I'm going to take you then, Councillor McKenney, to a document that you received. It’s a video that was sent to you by a resident and you have mentioned that residents were communicating with you and sending you correspondence. It’s at OT00012814. Now, first of all, do you recall receiving this video from a constituent?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 170 02-170-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And the email indicates that it was on February 1st. Do you have a sense for where the video was taken just based on what you could see there? And we could just show it up again just to --maybe just a still shot of the video. Just on pause here. But does that give you a sense for where the video was taken?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 170 02-170-11

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Yes. It would indicate that it’s on Metcalf Street, either Metcalfe, Nepean. It's just behind the Shopify building, which is on Elgin.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 170 02-170-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And that's the one we're -- that blue kind of beige one that we're seeing there, that's the Shopify building?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 170 02-170-22

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And so this is a residential area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 170 02-170-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And it's in your ward?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 171 02-171-01

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And is this consistent with the kind of sound level that you experienced in that area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 171 02-171-03

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And this is, you know, one video that was sent to you, but were there others in similar kind of nature, or how would you this relative to the other emails and communications that you received?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 171 02-171-06

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

Certainly, it was very consistent with other messages I received, but also social media that I was being sent. And also, just being in the area for days and having that type of horn noise going on almost 24/7, it was very -- it almost never stopped. It might for a half-an-hour now and then, and it would start up again, and it just traumatized residents. So it was very difficult to absorb that terror that residents were living under. It's why I just went down every day just so that I would be able to give voice to it.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 171 02-171-10

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And I'm going to take you now to another email you received, and it's at OTT, three zeroes, 14415. And so we can see that it's dated February 2nd, and the subject line is Centre Town Convoy Disruptions and Noise, and the sender starts by saying: "Good afternoon. I hope you're all having a peaceful afternoon. I'm not. I live on the intersection of Metcalfe and Cooper Streets in Downtown Ottawa. Since Friday, I have had a non-stop barrage of truck horns, a very illegal train horn, drunken revellers and plain old guys screaming in my neighbourhood. This is oftentimes directly outside of my window, and I am just above street level. See attached video to experience how loud it was this past Sunday. This started as early as 7:00 a.m., and over the weekend I heard honking and screaming until well past 1:00 a.m." (As read) Do you recall this email?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 171 02-171-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And this person indicates that they're at Metcalfe and Cooper. And can you confirm that's a residential area within your ward?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 172 02-172-15

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And this person describes horns as early as 7:00 a.m. and at times going past 1:00 a.m. Does that accord with your experience as well?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 172 02-172-19

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And if we look at the fourth paragraph, this person says: "Besides all of this, I have anxiety, constantly being on edge, not knowing how long I will have just a little peace and quiet, or if I will be able to safely get groceries. It's taking its toll on me. My jaw hurts from clenching non-stop, my heart constantly races, I have been sleeping on average of three to four hours a night, I can't stop shaking, I'm barely eating and my stomach ache is constantly upset. My anxiety is well-controlled in normal times, but prescribed medication and coping mechanisms can only do so much when the threat is real and constant." (As read) How would you say this resident's description of the impacts compares to the overall tone of communications that you were having with residents?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 172 02-172-23

Catherine McKenney, Councillor (Ott)

This is one of hundreds of emails that I received with this very, very similar description of what was happening for people who lived in the residential area, in Centre Town. By this time, anybody who could leave was leaving. I had parents calling me from out of town trying to get their adult children out of that area. So this was the beginning when people in Centre Town, if they could leave they were, and people being -- people who were left behind, for the most part, relayed this type of experience to me for three-and-a-half weeks, and they had nowhere else to go.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 173 02-173-16

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we're just going to look at the video that the constituents sent to you. It's at OTT, three zeroes, 14416. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] [END VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 173 02-173-26

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Councillor Fleury, did you receive similar emails regarding impacts from your constituents?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 174 02-174-03

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Very similar, daily. Everything that Councillor McKenney is describing is what we were both hearing from any resident that was within the red zone or on the periphery of the red zone, plus a number of microaggressions that are described. People were scared to leave, even if they weren't in the red zone, and when they left there was a number of incidents near the red zone which created additional anxiety. The noise, the smells, the fumes non-stop. I mean, I think this email is actually pretty light compared to some of the emails we received, frankly. People were losing it and losing it on all -- you know, locally on us, as their councillor. We were trying to do our very best, on the City, on authorities, yeah, I think this email is actually pretty tame compared to some of the stuff we received.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 174 02-174-06

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And so for your ward, did the -- you showed us on the map how far east the convoy was kind of established. Would you say that the noise issues were spread in a similar fashion to where you indicated the trucks were located in your ward?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 174 02-174-20

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yes. As you know, Rideau Street has very high buildings, so the noise did bounce off some of those buildings creating larger zones. Because it is the, kind of the winter period, so the noise travels much further into the -- this is mixed use zones along Rideau and the ByWard Market, but into the pure residential zones of Lower Town area, and in the northern part of Sandy Hill, particularly.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 174 02-174-25

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Thank you. And we're going to go to a video provided to us by the affidavit of Sean Flynn that's been submitted by the Coalition of Businesses and Residents, and this is at COA, five zeroes, 132. Yes, five zeroes. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] [END VIDEO PLAYBACK]

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-04

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And Councillor Fleury, can you -- are you able to tell us the location where that video was taken just based on the surroundings there?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-11

Mathieu Fleury, Councillor (Ott)

Yeah, that's on Rideau Street, on the north side of Rideau Street, right before you get to Sussex Avenue.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-14

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And you walked through that area during ---

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-17

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

Okay. And does that accord with your recollection of what it was like walking through that area?

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-20

Natalia Rodriguez, Senior Counsel (POEC)

And we know from this morning that February 7th, one of the residents, Zexi Li, who testified earlier today, obtained an injunction to stop airhorns and train horns in the downtown area. Would you say that the noise level improved after February 7th, and if so, did it stay like that, you know, throughout or did it come back? How would you describe the noise level after February 7th? I'll start with Catherine McKenney.

Volume 2 (October 14, 2022), page 175 02-175-24