Volume 6 (October 20, 2022)
Volume 6 has 283 pages of testimony. 18 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Wendy Clements.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 719 times)
- Frank Au, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 316 times)
- Eric Brousseau, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 193 times)
- Craig Abrams, Superintendent (Supt) - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 191 times)
- Rebecca Jones, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 122 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 84 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 65 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 63 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 39 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 32 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 30 times)
- Rob Kittredge, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 23 times)
- Caroline Laverdière, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 13 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 9 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 3 times)
- Unidentified speaker (spoke 2 times)
- Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 1 time)
- Diane Deans, Councillor - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 9:34 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Today, we have a new witness?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We do.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It's Frank Au, Senior Counsel for the Commission. Our next witness is Deputy Chief Ferguson.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, Commissioner, if I can interject. There's an echo here that's quite distracting. I don't know if there's a difficulty with the sound system.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm not sure. There is a bit of an echo. Okay, is that better? Okay.
The Registrar (POEC)
Deputy Chief Ferguson, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I'd like to swear on the Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
Please take the Bible in your right hand. For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Patricia Ferguson, P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A F-E-R-G-U-S-O-N.
ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF PATRICIA FERGUSON, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. FRANK AU
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Deputy Chief.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Good morning. It's actually Acting Deputy Chief.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Acting Deputy Chief. We met in the summer when you attended an interview with the Commission.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I recall.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And after that interview, we prepared a summary for you to review?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you've adopted the contents of that summary?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I have.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Is there any corrections that you'd like to make to that summary?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, none.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Commissioner, will that be the evidence, then?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
(Inaudible response)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I'll just call you Deputy Chief for short.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just for the record, maybe do the number.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh the -- yes. It's WTS00000 -- sorry, WTS00000023. Now, Deputy Chief, during the Freedom Convoy protests back in January and February, you were the executive responsible for Community Policing.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in that role, you supervised the Specialized Policing Directorate.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And that directorate includes the Special Events Unit, which was responsible for planning before the arrival of the convoy.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And just to get a sense of the top executive level at the Ottawa Police Service, at the time at the top there was the former Chief Sloly?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then he was assisted by two Deputy Chiefs.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you were one of those?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the other -- who was the other Deputy Chief?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Deputy Chief Steven Bell.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And he's now the Interim Chief of the Ottawa Police Service.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, he is.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What portfolio was he responsible for back in January last -- well, last winter?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
We refer to it as the Three I's, Information, Intelligence, and Investigations.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So whereas you had strategic oversight over planning as part of the Community Policing, Deputy Chief had strategic oversight over Intelligence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, you've told us during our interview that you first learned about the Freedom Convoy, the fact that they were travelling to Ottawa, at -- during the week of January 17th; is that right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And yesterday, the Commission heard evidence that the OPP started sharing Intelligence reports related to the Freedom Convoy with the OPS as early as January 13th.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's my understanding.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to explore with you the extent to which that intelligence was shared within the OPS.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So the initial sharing of that report went to our Intelligence Section, or our Intelligence Superintendent. And I should lay the groundwork in that in January of 2022, so January 3rd, a number of our senior officers changed portfolios. So the person who received that was Superintendent Rob Drummond; however, he had moved portfolios at that point in time. I do know it was shared with him, with our Special Events Section, and with former Chief Sloly.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when did you first learn about those Hendon reports?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe the first one that I was privy to and actually received was on the 27th of January ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- the 28th of January, in and around then, so after the convoy was well underway.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can I call up document Number OPS00014479? If we go to page 26. Now, Deputy Chief, so this is your notes. There's some reference, I believe, to February the 1st. So during the interview we had in the summer, I believe you said that the first time you learned about Project Hendon was after the arrival of the convoy. Do you recall that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So I would have received it on the 27th or 28th, but those were hectic times. So I can't say for sure that I actually saw the report at that point in time, I just know that's when it landed in my email inbox. So I -- my recollection was, as I mentioned when I spoke to you in the summertime, I had not been aware that this project was underway with the OPP.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if you received the report as of the 27th, what did you do with it since you first learned about it?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't recall. I expect I probably would've seen it at some point in time in my inbox, but it was a chaotic time so many things were going on.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, you had your team started planning for Project -- started planning for the arrival of the convoy sometime before the 27th. Do you know the extent to which they were privy to those Intelligence information?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
The Special Events Planning Team, I can't say. I believe that our Intelligence -- some of our Intelligence officers would have seen it prior to the convoy arriving, but I don't know the exact date of that. And my role was really at the strategic level, so the plans were being developed, and I -- you know, they -- normally they're developed with Intelligence open source information, Police Liaison Team information.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about the usual process for the OPS in planning for a major event, like these convoy protests. What's the expectations in terms of information- sharing as between the Intelligence Unit and the Planning Unit?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It's generally fairly smooth. I would say that the bulk of the information for demonstrations prior to the convoy was not Intelligence-based, it was information, and so it was, you know, open source. Whether that is, you know, for an example, if we have a concert coming into town, the Special Events Unit will look at what kind of, you know, music it is, what kind of crowd it draws, they will speak to places where that band has played before, and they will develop a plan that is, you know, commensurate with what they've seen in other places. And so for the convoy, they did their usual where they looked to, you know determine as much as they could, reached out to other police services where the convoy was travelling through, getting information from them, trying to get an assessment or an idea of numbers that we were looking at and what kind of behaviour they were engaging in along the way in their cities. And up until point we were hearing that, you know, they were cooperative, they were providing lanes of traffic across the Prairies. And so our special events team was alive to those issues and continued to gather that right up until the day they came into town.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, yesterday we heard from Superintendent Morris that the intelligence that was available strongly suggested a long-term event, meaning weeks, not days or a weekend. Did your planning team take that into account?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe what our planning team did was assessed all of the information that they had, and perhaps there was some information saying that some factions of it would be staying for longer. I think what they did was they developed a plan commensurate to the experience that we’ve had for over two and a half decades in this city, as far as I know, on what demonstrations generally look like, how long they last, and the type of behaviour we see. And so I believe they planned taking into account all of that information and developed the plan that we had.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, were there not signs that this protest was going to be different in the days or weeks leading up to the arrival?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe what was fluctuating for us was the numbers, the actual volume of trucks. And as -- and the money that they were collecting. I think towards the last few days, we were seeing that there was a big spike in the GoFundMe money being raised, so that was different than most of the demonstrations that we see. Did that tell us specifically that they were planning on staying for a long time and that when they got here, they would engage in the behaviour that they did? It did not. And I think what we’ve learnt is that there’s a lot of misinformation, disinformation and false information surrounding this group, and so they were trying to assess as best they could, but they relied general on the experience that that seasoned planning team had.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, let’s take a look at some of the documents that we know were available to your team. First of all, the initial plan that was developed by the OPS, that was written by Staff Sergeant Kevin Kennedy; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And it was then approved by Inspector Lucas?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And they both reported to you; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
They reported to Superintendent Rehaume, and then to me, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. They reported to you through Superintendent ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we could call up, please, OPS00002878. So Deputy Chief, I’m showing you an email from Sergeant Sean Kay to Staff Sergeant Kennedy dated January the 21st. It was forwarded to you at the top, as you can see. We go down to the -- to the -- to page 4. At the top of page 4. You see that -- it’s written there that, “The goal of the convoy is to remain in Ottawa until the restrictions are repealed.” Right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And there’s no expectation at the time that those restrictions would be repealed any time soon.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So didn’t that suggest to your team that it was going to be a long-term event, not a weekend event?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think it suggested there was the potential for that. There were no guarantees, I don’t think, in the information that we had or the intelligence, even, to say that it was going to be here for the amount of time it was.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. Let’s call up another document, OPS00002932. I expect this will be an email dated January the 24th from Sergeant Louis Carvalho, and it was forwarded to you. If we go to page 1 near the bottom. Sorry. Page 1. Maybe we go up. I’m looking for the reference where it says different groups now getting on board. (SHORT PAUSE)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you see the cursor here, “Different groups now getting on board such as the farmers and right wing extremists calling for major disruptions.”
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I do see that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what does that suggest to you?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So it suggests that there’s -- there’s interest in this. A lot of times some of the information that we will look at are things like, you know, if there’s a Facebook live group and we’ll see that a whole lot of people “like” an event. And we’ve used that to sort of assess our level of staffing needed for an event, but it doesn’t always translate to actual numbers. And so when they say “getting on board”, that could be a number of different things. That could be that they are contributing it, that could be that they are supporting them. That could be that they’re standing on a highway overpass, you know, honking horns in regard to that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, the Commission heard evidence last Friday from a businesswoman, a Ms. Carrier. She’s a layperson and she said it was clear to her that the trucks wouldn’t be travelling all this way to Ottawa from the west to stay a day for a short protest. It was obvious to her. She didn’t have access to any police intelligence. Why wouldn’t it be obvious to someone who’s trained to analyze this kind of events?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, I think we’re trained to analyze a lot of information, and so that was part of the information that formed the planning that was going on. But as I said, with this campaign there was a lot of information coming at us from different sources. Some sources are more reliable than others, and I think even the Hendon reports were -- left it quite open that this could be, you know, a prolonged event but then, in another sentence, indicated that they were expecting they would be leaving town by the end of the weekend or by the middle of the following week. So when we addressed the community preparing them for this, we said a prolonged event and, for us, the experience in that was over the three days, you know, of the weekend. So did we err in our assessment of this? Clearly, we did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, in addition to the Hendon reports, there were also other sources of information being provided to the City and to the OPS corroborating those intelligence reports such as the email from the Hotel Association suggesting that people were booking somewhere upwards of 30 days to stay in the hotels, lots of people doing that. Why wouldn’t that strongly suggest an event beyond the weekend?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, we did work to track down some of those sources of information, and we were getting misinformation, I said, and disinformation. And I think that was one of those things that they weighed in assessment. We followed up with Steve Ball of the Hotel Association to determine just how many rooms had been booked, and over the course of the convoy, that piece of information came up on a number of occasions. And the reality was that our hotels were not able to be booked to capacity because they did not have the staff. We were still in the sixth wave of COVID and they were working at very limited capacity at that point in time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, the trucks started to arrive on Friday, the 28th; right? And you gave a media briefing on that day at 11:00 a.m., so let’s go to OPS00003851. So you see, Deputy Chief, that these are your speaking notes.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go down a little bit, you said: “Over the last few days our team has been finalizing operational plans in anticipation of the demonstrations. Planning has involved coordination with our policing and intelligence partners at all levels of government and the Ottawa Police would like to thank them [and so on]. Information gathered continues to indicate this will be a large and significant event that is expected to last through the weekend.” There’s no mention that there was any expectation it would go beyond the weekend.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There was none.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why was that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
As I said, we weighed the information intelligence we had, and that was the plan that was developed based on what our best assessment of that was.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Wouldn’t it have been helpful to notify the public, the business owners and the residents that, at the very least, there was a strong possibility of the event going beyond the weekend?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it may well have been helpful.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, you agree that the planning was premised entirely on the assumption that this was going to be a two-day event; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Commissioner, may I just ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- raise one issue? I appreciate that Commission Counsel has control of the presentation of the evidence of the hearing, and also, that given the number of parties, each of us has a limited time with each of the witnesses called. May I ask through you that the witnesses -- and this is a good example -- be taken to the parts of the record that might balance the premise of some of the questions that we have heard so far. And I raise that because with this witness, we have 25 minutes. I know my friends have - - some of them have less, maybe some have more. It's not possible for us in the limited time that we have to put each of the pieces of information that might, for example, put into context the questions my friend Mr. Au has raised so far about the premise of his question, a strong possibility that it was going to be longer. Well, there's evidence that it was going to be a weekend, and we can draw it out, but I would be grateful if I could raise through you that the Commission's time with the witnesses be perhaps more balanced in presenting the information that in this case Deputy Chief Ferguson had at the time rather than counting on her to remember all of it. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I think the - - certainly you're correct in terms of the Commission is to bring out the evidence either way and to bring all of the facts to the public eye. And to the degree there is material that goes the other way, I'm sure Commission Counsel will refer to it, and if they don't, I'm sure you will, but I can assure you, our objective in this hearing is to provide the public with all of the information, pro and con, of course, as you point out. And can't guarantee we're always a hundred percent correct in what we do. We do the best we can. And, of course, you also know that there is always enough cross-examination time to equal the amount of time Commission takes. So in total, we hope that all of the different perspectives are brought out. And yesterday I think was a good example, where there was some very useful, I thought, information brought out by the various parties participating. So I certainly am grateful for the contribution of all the parties. So your question is noted, your concern is noted, and I'm sure Counsel will take it into account.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now when you spoke to us in August, you mentioned that the OPS had standard plans that it used for parades and other major events like Canada Day; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now the initial plan for the Freedom Convoy, and by the way, the document number is OPP00004262. We don't need to call it up right now but just for the record, that's the plan I'm referring to, the January 28th, 29th plan. Do you agree that that initial plan was largely a boiler plate plan that followed the standard template?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I believe the components of the plan were the standard components that we employ, so, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And according to this initial plan, the convoy, convoy vehicles would enter downtown Ottawa and the plan was to stack those vehicles along Wellington between Kent and Elgin; am I right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe we had four areas where we ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- were going to be stacking vehicles, but, yes, that was one of them.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now as this plan then, this graphic component, was it premised on this being a two-day event?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it was.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And so here's something perhaps you can help me understand, because we heard from Councillor McHale on Friday that even for an event like Canada Day, there would be road closures in the downtown core and barriers set up to control the mass of vehicles that might otherwise cause a problem. So why wasn't this done here?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe we had officers in who were -- our Traffic Unit was leading the trucks to where they were supposed to be, so I believe that was -- you know, barriers and road closures impede our ability to get around, and so I think that was what they were doing, was that once the vehicles were in place. So we've had a number where people have stayed for two days on Wellington, and that is -- you know, it's obviously the place where they want to be. That's the whole point of their protesting the federal government. And so that was what happened in this case. And in terms of road closures and barriers, I'm not sure that that would have been helpful. If people were wanting to leave, the barriers would have impeded them from being able to do that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Was any consideration given to, for example, taking the trucks somewhere beyond downtown and have transportation arranged so that people could protest downtown, so the people could be there?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, there was, in fact, the area designated, I know it as Coventry Road. I can't remember the full name of the baseball park, but that was an area that was designated as somewhere they could go. And, in fact, some people did carpool from there and come downtown.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But my -- I guess the intent of my question was to move all of the trucks away from the downtown, not just some of them.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think realistically, a number of them really wanted to be in front of Parliament Hill. If we could have done that, if we had gotten cooperation, that certainly would have been our goal, but there was a -- we didn't know the size of, you know, of the convoy, how many trucks we were dealing at and how big an area we had to work with. So we did our best, I think, to keep them out of residential areas, and that was why, you know, parkways were chosen, Sir John A MacDonald Parkway, in order to make sure that -- you know, we could afford losing that road for the weekend and limit the disruption for Ottawa citizens. That was the intent.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now in hindsight, what would you have done differently in this planning phase?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I suppose we would have given more credibility to the information in Intelligence telling us that there was a faction that were planning on staying for a much longer period of time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right. Now so far we've been talking about the OPS planning before the convoy's arrival and we're going to turn now to the OPS response after they've arrived.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But before I do that, I want to ask you some basic questions about what's known as the Incident Command System.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now I understand that in responding to incidents including protests and demonstrations that police sometimes use a model called Incident Command System.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And within the system, the role you played back in January and February was the role of a strategic commander; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now there are three different levels to the command.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Strategic, operational and tactic.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What does the strategic command do?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So the strategic really informs the goals of what it is we're trying to achieve. So in this case, you know, to safely, you know, manage this event, and ultimately, once they had arrived and, you know, not left, our goal became to encourage them to leave. And so that's the strategic level and that really is what -- you know, where I was sitting at. The event commander, who was Superintendent Rheaume ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, before we get to the next level ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- we're going to talk about the operational; right? So before we leave the strategic, so just to clarify, you'd be setting the strategic objective, and would you be also responsible for appointing the operational commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So once the objective is set and you've appointed an operational commander, is there some expectation that you'll give autonomy to the operational commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Absolutely. That's the only way it works.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And why is that important?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, because they're the ones who have, you know, much more connection with what is happening in the different areas. And so they are much more aware of, you know, from the ground what is going on and they're able to take in that information, measure it against what they know that's going on in another area and be able to make a decision in event. I'm not always privy to those.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And would it also be the role of the strategic commander to ensure that the operational commander had the requisite resources to see to the end of the situation?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Absolutely.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now let's talk about the operational commander, the next level down. What does that involve?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay. So that would be the event commander, and that is somebody who takes in, as I alluded to a little bit already, the information that's coming at him. He's got a variety of different people who were reporting to him, and providing him with updates, and he is really sort of the quarterback, I guess, if you will, making sure that resources are being sent to the right places in order to assist achieving our goals here in this. And then we would move to the tactical level.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is it the responsibility of the operational commander to develop a suitable plan to address the incident?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think he assigns that task to his team to do that, and ultimately he’s the final approver of the plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And depending on the severity of the incident, perhaps the operational commander is sometimes called an incident commander, sometimes a critical incident commander, and I guess with the OPS they’re also the event commander; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And your role as the strategic commander is also known as the major incident commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. Now, you mentioned that the operational commander may get other people to help them?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Would these be, like, subject matter experts in specialized policing areas?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, and he would work at his level. So with other superintendents. So let’s say the intelligence superintendent, or the investigation superintendent, to make sure that they are feeding into -- that their people are involved in the plan and the aftermath and carrying out whatever needs to be done at the time of the tasks.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And some of these specialized areas that I suspect we’ll hear about include the Public Order Unit?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the Police Liaison Team?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let’s talk about the next - - actually, before we leave this, we’re going to be hearing from Insp. Lucas and Supt. Bernier next week. Would they be operational commanders?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So Insp. Lucas was the incident commander and Supt. Bernier was the event commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And they would both be at the Operational Command level; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, Supt. Bernier was at the -- yes, sorry, operational. And I believe that Insp. Lucas was more in the -- you’re right, sorry, he would be in that operational phase, and the tactical one is more the POU, PLT, Traffic.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So they would both be reporting to you back in January/February?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, they would.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So finally, the tactical level, what does that involve?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So that involves specific units and their tasks are very focused on -- as I said, the Traffic Unit, they came up with their plan to -- on how to -- and this one was very much a traffic related incident or event. But we also had our Public Order teams, our Police Liaison Teams, we had Intelligence Teams, we had Investigations, we had our Communications Team, we had Logistics, Staffing. And as the event grows, you build out the pieces that you need, Finance for example, HR was involved, we were swearing in other officers from other jurisdictions. So as that progressed and grew, so did our table.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Would it be fair to say that the tactical level of command is responsible for executing the plan that is developed by the Operational Commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it would.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Let’s talk about the two specialized units that I put to you before. The PLT or Police Liaison Unit. What are they?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So that’s a group of specially trained officers who, when we have demonstrations, before, during, and after, they’re engaged in reaching out to organizers to build rapport with them, to find out what it is that the group is trying to achieve, to work with them to help facilitate what they are looking to achieve in town. And so, you know, part of that is if a group would like to, you know, have a march down Albert Street at 8:00 o’clock in the morning, we might try and speak with them and saying, “Maybe, how about we did it at 10:00 o’clock? That might be --” so those types of conversations happen. They look to, as I said, build rapport and relationships with the people who are involved so that when they get here, that relationship is already established and they can have conversations with them about what is acceptable behaviour by the people of their group, where, you know, their Charter of Rights end, and perhaps criminal charges could be -- or, you know, disobedience and civil disobedience type of things will occur. And in the event that something is going on during the event, where there might be an agitator or an antagonizer, then they would speak to that person that they already had the relationship with and let them know what the consequences are, or that this behaviour is problematic and we’d like for that cease, insomuch as it really is about negotiating and trying to change behaviours through conversation.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if disruptive behaviours occur during an event, would it be the role of the PLT to engage in order to try to de-escalate the situation?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it would.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What about the Public Order Unit, or POU?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So Public Order Unit, we refer to them, you might see in some of the documents, as ESU, Emergency Services Unit. They have a two- fold sort of -- when we have a missing person, they will go out and search an area. They’re trained in those types of things. Again, we have about 100 officers, both sworn and civilian, mostly sworn, who are trained in being able to -- whether it’s crowd control, crowd management, those types of things. So they are the ones who ultimately we saw take the streets on that weekend that moved forward with moving people out of the streets. So if you think of it in the way of a triangle, the incident commander is at the top of the triangle, and on both opposite corners, you have the ability to use force should you -- your PLT and negotiations break down.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So in responding to the freedom convoy after they’ve arrived, was this the model that the OPS used to address the incident?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, to a certain extent. I think we failed in certain areas regarding PLT, and I think they struggled as a result. But that was what we were hoping. And you saw one of those -- Louis Carvalho was on our PLT team. He was a sergeant there. And he was working also with going out to businesses and letting them know, and doing that engagement piece as well. So not just with the convoy organizers, but with the areas that they believe are going to be impacted and affected ahead of time ahead of time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So with that background, let’s start talking about how the OPS responded to the freedom convoy. And now we know that they arrived the weekend of the 28th and they -- and the incident was not resolved until those three and a half weeks later.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So let’s break down the time period and let’s talk first about the first week after they arrived. So let’s say from January 28th, to -- which is a Friday, to February the 4th; okay?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now during that period? Well, first, tell us what happened on the first weekend?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So as they arrived into town, you know, we were monitoring numbers where it was -- you know, safety, obviously, is always our first priority. And so we were monitoring with that lens for sure. And we were starting to see, you know, they were pulling into the areas that they were sent to or steered to. And then we started to see, I would qualify it as a bit of a party atmosphere, sort of festival-like, people were very excited to be there. Myself and Deputy Bell walked around in the downtown core and saw some of the, you know, the people that were there. And it was, in those first few days, not as, I would say, as disruptive as it got to be. When the weekend came and went and Monday morning arrived and they were still on our streets, at that point in time, Ottawa Police was in a situation of, “Okay. We’ve got to pivot. We have to reassess what we’ve got here. We have to evolve our plan.” So began starting to, you know, strategize and brainstorm as to what actions could be taken, what did we have available to us. I know that, you know, at the command level, we had considered an injunction with the City, we had spoken to other police partners. A lot of those things were going on at all levels. So at the strategic, the operational, and the tactical level, I know our members were fully engaged in those types of behaviours, to try and come up with what our next plan -- we knew we needed to evolve and move into another stage, really. So it was reorienting ourselves to the situation that we had at hand.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, during that first weekend, when did you first realize that this may last longer than a weekend?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think really as Sunday progressed. We expected that a number of people would be heading back to, you know, their home cities. And I knew that there were some people from out west, we were seeing the Alberta plates, we were seeing, you know, Saskatchewan, but we expected that, you know, the -- we had an influx of pedestrians that came over from Quebec side. I think we had some expectations that those folks who were in the surrounding areas, would retreat back to their homes. And I think, you know, really, Sunday -- as Sunday night carried on, we had been talking about a demobilization plan up until that point, and clearly that was not the plan that was going to be required.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Let me take you to a document dated the 31st, which would be the Monday; OPS00004976. This will be an email from Robin Millbank. Who’s Robin?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Robin is my Executive Assistant.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I expect this email will -- is a kind of minutes for an executive briefing at 8:00 a.m.; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s correct. We were briefing twice a day, and Robin was taking notes from those briefings.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So if you take a look at the second bullet, you see a reference to: “Staffing is #1 risk; priority is working on plan;” Can you explain what that refers to?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry; why was staffing the number one risk?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
The state of the Ottawa Police at this stage was one of very poor staffing. We had been in that state for, I would say, a number of years. Prior to becoming the Deputy of Community Policing, my position was the Superintendent of Frontline, and so it was a challenge every day to make sure that we had all the shifts covered. The pandemic obviously, like any other workforce, had a large impact on our people; we had some high sick levels. At this point in time, we were in the sixth wave of COVID and so what we had done to try and mitigate that was -- and it had been quite successful in the early days of the pandemic, was to establish a reserve staffing. So a group of officers who would be healthy at home, should we have an outbreak where we have an entire platoon taken out, we are able to upstaff. Another measure that we took was to limit our -- we have six platoons, generally; we cut it down to four platoons. So if you think of 30 people per platoon, when we divided one in half, then we had 45 members on each platoon to up our numbers a little bit to try and mitigate that. And that was going into the convoy. We were already -- I would describe us as being on our knees and having run a marathon for the last two and a half years, and it felt like they’d moved the finish line 100 yards, or another mile, and given us 200 pounds to carry to get to the end. So staffing was, I would say, our number one Achilles heel in all of this. And so all of these people who had worked for the week leading up to the convoy, over the weekend -- and long hours; you know, our frontline members were working 12 hour shifts. When the convoy came and we were trying to manage staffing and clear posts, some of them were working up to 15 hours, and it was -- they were -- they were exhausted. So we needed to make sure that our people had time off. And so that, I believe, is what we’re thinking about, is it’s a risk for us to be able to staff all of this.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Did staffing become the number one risk overnight because there was no contingency plan within the initial plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think that’s part of it. You know, I think we had some extra resources for the weekend. We had some additional public order units from other services that had some into town, but they all had to get back as well. So our contingency plan really was for the weekend into Monday morning, and, you know, staffing -- I believe that really is what they’re referring to there.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So to the extent there was any contingency planning, it only covered up to, perhaps, Monday at noon.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I think that’s fair.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, that bullet also talks about, “priority is working on plan,” so I assume this refers to some kind of a new plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Or evolving the plan that we have, depending on what the planners determine is the -- they’re saying it’s an entirely new, we’re starting from scratch with a new position now with the situation we have on hand.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So what’s the vision, now, for the new plan? What was that going to look like?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, I think ultimately we wanted to move the truckers out of the downtown core, and to limit the impact on our residents, and always to keep in mind public safety, and our officer safety as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. If we go -- scroll down a little bit. Go down. Okay. Do you see the bullet, the third bullet from the bottom it says: “No longer a protest but an occupation now; need to move away from operational plan and reset - new plan needed to go forward;...” Now, whose view was it that this is no longer a protest, but an occupation?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe this is Chief Sloly.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what makes it an occupation as opposed to a protest?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think at this point because they weren’t leaving. They had, you know, expressed that they wanted to protest. Protesting, you know, generally is a limited window, in our experience. And so the fact that they were now no longer leaving. And the behaviour that they were engaging in, I think was what really upped that temperature to making it an occupation; that they were settling in, that they were starting to put up tents and, you know, really begin to entrench themselves.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, at around this time, Supt. Abrams of the OPP was also in Ottawa. He’ll actually be testifying this afternoon after you, and we expect that he may say that the OPS was struggling to develop a new plan; that Chief Sloly would give inconsistent direction and there was much confusion. What’s your perspective on this?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think those are fair statements. We struggled because we didn’t have people who were strictly planners. Our planners were also people who were site commanders on the ground, who were trying to manage things at the very tactical level. And so I think to say we were struggling is fair and accurate. I think we did on that Monday morning -- you can see the conversation in this, we’re trying to get our heads wrapped around what we were looking at. And in terms of former Chief Sloly providing direction, and -- yeah, direction, he definitely was of what he wanted to see happen.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So who was the Event Commander, the Operational Level Commander at this time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So at this point in time it remained Supt. Rheaume, and I was the Major Event Commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of developing a plan to resolve the incident, would it be on Supt. Rheaume; would that be his job to develop a plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What would have been your role at that time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
In making sure that they were aware of what the strategic goals were, ultimately, to have, you know, this resolved as safely as possible, but for these trucks to be removed from our streets.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why, then, would the former Chief be giving directions?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think you’d have to ask Chief Sloly, but I think, you know, from a human perspective, I would say that it was a -- this was not what he was expecting, and his reaction was one out of concern, out of stress, and out of pressure at this point in time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. So let’s take a look at what happened a few days later, on the 4th of February. Can we call up OPS00014454, please? And I want to go to page 52. So Deputy Chief, this is -- these are scribed notes or minutes taken at meetings that involve former Chief Sloly. So I want to scroll down to the part where it says, “Last Friday”; it’s page 52. So Deputy Chief, you see: “Last Friday’s operational plan is not valid. If so, then we need to update it.” Now, help me understand here because as of the 31st, there was a recognition that you needed a new plan, but here we are on February the 4th, three days later, and we’re still talking about last Friday’s plan not being valid. Was there no new plan yet by the 4th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
We did not have a new plan by the 4th. We had -- as I said, our planners, I think, were working on developing it but they were also dealing with a number of the live issues, putting out fires, as it were, within their area; and again, staffing, I think, for those folks was as limited as it was everywhere else in the organisation. So I'm not sure whose notes these are.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
These are scribe ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Scribe notes? Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, so I think it's fair to say that we did not have another plan developed by the 4th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we go back in time to the day before, February the 3rd. And I want to show you the document, OPS00014484. So this looks like an email that the former Chief sent to himself with respect to a meeting that he had with you and Deputy Chief Bell. So if we go down to page 3. Go down. Keep going. Keep going. Okay. Do you see the part where he says: "I advised that I cannot approve a recommended course of action without being briefed on all other reasonable courses of action..." So the context was a discussion of POU plans. What's your recollection as to the Chief, the former Chief's role in terms of approving actions?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So it was generally felt, and because of statements like this, that he was the final approver of plans, and that became the sentiment for everybody who was producing those plans, that they needed to have them approved by former Chief Sloly.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, are these not operational or tactical decisions involving the POU?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
They are.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But at that time, it was -- it's your understanding that he was directing decisions at this level of command?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, he was directing a staff sergeant.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And did you feel any need to intervene and perhaps speak up and say, "Hey, we have the Incident Command model here to run. Each one has their role within the model." Did you do anything like that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
We did speak to him about not directing Operations, and reminded him of what role he played in it on a number of occasions throughout this time. Because there were a few incidents where he would engage with constables or he would, you know, engage with the Event Commander outside of the chain of command. I think you see in this email or notes to himself. I was working with Staff Sergeant Stoll and the group to try and get a plan, and indicated that we would like to see them, and he -- the former Chief wanted him to present to him, he wanted to see specifically a public order plan. And a public order plan, it just forms part of the larger plan, but he was fixated on this one.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So as of February the 4th, there was no plan. Let's move to the next week, roughly from February the 5th, which was a Friday, to February the 10th, which was a Thursday. Can we have the document OPS00007355, please? So this is an email from the former Chief to you, Deputy Chief, and I'll give you a moment to look at it. Can we slowly scroll down? So this seems to be about a meeting that he was having with the Command Team at 8:00 a.m., and he set out some priorities. So for example, here, you see three general priorities listed, "surge, contain and enforce"; the second being, well, "close everything", in brackets: "...(roads, bridges, highway off ramps...) as early and as long as possible." The third priority being to shut down -- well, shut down a number of things: Shut down the funds, the fundraising; shut down the fuel; shut down the fun, the bouncy castles and so on. So these are the general priorities, and then some specific priorities with respect to locations are set out, and we see four here. There's a Confederation Park being one; the Rideau, we've heard some evidence about the Rideau/Sussex intersection, I assume that's what this is referring to.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Wellington. Is that the Wellington?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then SJAM, is Sir John A. MacDonald ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall the substance of this meeting?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I do.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, was this an outline for a new Operation Plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It certainly seemed that way.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So who set these priorities?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
This would be Chief -- former Chief Sloly.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So it is not the Operational Commander setting these priorities or developing a plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, it isn't.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was this outline developed into a fully operational plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
We took portions of this. The surge, contain and enforce had been announced the day before, and that was something that he wanted us to be doing in the neighbourhoods that were most affected. And he talked about flooding the areas and having a cop on every corner, which in concept is a good idea to try and address some of that stuff, but in practical reality we did not have the, again, the staffing to do that. He had some good ideas, but to implement them was very difficult, given the numbers that we had. So some of these things did form what we call the Concept of Operation Plan, which I believe we had dated on the 9th of February, but ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, we'll get to that.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, sometimes these meetings, we have multiple accounts. So here, we see the former Chief's notes to himself, basically ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- but you also recorded this in this in your notes; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
(Inaudible response)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to show you the document OPS144 ---
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If I might interrupt just for a second. Sorry to my friend, but I just wanted to let you know that Deputy Chief actually has a hard copy of her notes on -- in front of her, so I just wanted to let that -- let you know of that, and also in case there's a specific page you could turn her to, she could actually turn it up in her notebook.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Very good. I think it would still be helpful for everyone else so that we can look at the same document as the same time. I only, unfortunately, recorded the electronic record page number, but... So this is your notes, the document number being OPS14479. And I want to take you to page 43, which is the electronic record number.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we see that you recorded the meeting starting at around 8:00 or 8:06. If we could scroll down a little bit. I'm looking for the part where it says "need to turn the corner." There we have. "Need to turn the corner..." Perhaps you can read it to us.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sure: "Need to turn the corner...today, not changing the [operational] plan - need to implement the hell out of that plan for the next 72 hours. The plan we have is excellent. Nothing has changed with [C]ommander's intent - or mission."
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay, let's stop there. So this is the Chief saying that the plan is excellent; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree that it was an excellent plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't think we had a plan at that point in time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, we expect to hear from Superintendent Bernier next week. As you've described, he was the Event Commander later on. I think he was appointed on or about February the 10th. And I expect that he may tell us that the OPS lacked an overall plan with all of the supporting components to end the protest when he took over the Operational command as of the 10th. Would you agree with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I would.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We saw in the previous document, the February 5th email from the former Chief, that one of the priorities was to shut down fuel; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to take you to what's been referred to in some of the evidence, the so-called "Coventry incident". Now, that happened on February the 6th; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I guess things are happening according to the outline of the plan on the 5th to shut down fuel, and then on the 6th, we saw actions shutting down fuel. Tell us what happened on the 6th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So on the 6th -- I should maybe let you know that the incident commander, at this point in time, or sorry, the event commander was Superintendent Patterson.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So there was a switch.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There was a switch. He began on the 6th of February.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, maybe we should go back, because you mentioned that the first event commander was Superintendent Rheaume.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how long did he serve in that role?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He served until the evening of the 4th, so the Friday evening.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why so short?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, he was the de facto event commander because this took place in his specialized policing event, but he did not necessarily have the -- he had the skills and capacity to manage the initial event, but then as it got more protracted, first of all, I think he needed some time, some rest days, but Superintendent Dunlop was ultimately engaged and working with one of the groups, POU and PLT. He also had some, you know, I felt reasonable experience and skills to come in at this stage in our operation, and so I had approached him to take on that role.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So when did Superintendent Dunlop take over?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So the overnight from the 4th into the 5th, so the Friday into the Saturday morning.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how long did he serve in that role?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Until the evening of the 5th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why so short?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Former Chief Sloly did not believe that he was the right person for the job. He gave us some -- myself and Deputy Bell, who both were part of the decision making into who would be the best person at this stage of the operation, but former Chief Sloly had, I would say it's fair to say, a past history with Superintendent Dunlop, and whether it was a trust factor or whether it was because Superintendent Dunlop had I think challenged him on a few issues that he didn't feel he was right for the position in that stage, and he made it very clear to me that he didn't approve of that decision and he was going to hold me accountable for whatever the results were of that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now you told us earlier that, according to the Incident Command model, it was -- it's supposed to be the strategic commander, who was you at the time, to appoint the operational commander. How did you feel about the Chief stepping in and essentially removing the operational commander that you chose?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I wasn't happy with it, but I recognized it was an untenable situation for Superintendent Dunlop to be in. And so with further conversation with DC Bell, we determined that it would be fair - - more fair to have another person step in, and so that's when Superintendent Patterson was selected, and ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when did he step in?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He stepped in on the morning of the 6th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Who chose him?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It was a conversation with former Chief Sloly, and I could tell he approved of him as an incident -- or as an event commander. And so it was a -- I would say a conciliatory conversation and that's ultimately it was my decision, that's where we went.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So back to the Coventry incident.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
February 6th, this is when Mark Patterson had assumed the role of the event commander. Tell us what happened on that day.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So as the event commander, he determined he was going to start getting some wins, I guess would be the -- showing some action and showing some, you know, movement on the part of the police. And so he determined with -- former Chief Sloly was very much about let's interdict fuel, let's do what we can to stop the supply going to them. And so we knew that Coventry Road was the site where the -- it was sort of a camp for them. They came back and they had a tent where they ate. They were pretty well established there. I believe there were saunas and things set up. And they had a fuel truck there. So we were aware and I believe our PLT team had been working with people on that site to engage, to establish a rapport and a relationship. And Superintendent Patterson set up to do what we would call an action, and engage the Public Order Team, and wanted them to go in and, you know, seize the fuel and stop the source of fuel. So that's what took place on the evening of the 6th.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now when you spoke of engagement by the PLT team earlier, are you referring only to the PLT team from the OPS?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I should have clarified that. The OPP PLT team was assisting our team throughout, both as being a backup, if you will, or an increase in numbers, but also as being sort of sounding boards and guidance. They had a lot of experience in dealing with longer-term protests.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Specifically with respect to the Coventry location, what was the PLT team's objective at that time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think they were trying to reason with the organizers, and there's always a give and take with the PLT approach. So if we, you know, if we can agree with something that you get something, we get something, that was what they were trying to establish, I believe, without being in the leads of that, but that was the relationship they were working on.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
They were looking for small wins for everybody?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And now you spoke earlier about this command triangle with the operational commander at the top of the triangle and then the two sides being the PLT or negotiation and the other one being the kind of enforcement action on. What is the -- like, how are those two sides in the bottom supposed to work together?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
In concert with each other. I mean, I think what has to happen is that the PLT team needs to be given the time to actually effect some change and they need to be given the room to do so and the authority to make decisions. And that, I believe, was not happening. That's not in concert. That's the incident commander, the event commander. The Public Order Team understands that they have a role to play, and so oftentimes, they will be waiting in the wings until they're given the, you know, go ahead, we've done everything we can, we have cleared as much as we can, and now these people have been advised that they're no longer welcome, and if they don't leave that they will be arrested, that type of thing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So because you -- when you described the role of the PLT earlier, you talk about how they were the first point of contact. They were supposed to engage and deescalate and to show the protesters what the lawful limits are; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So is the idea then that they will make contact and then see if, you know, it can be successfully deescalated before part actions is enforced?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. I think in the Coventry example, you know, there were some things that were concerning in that there was fuel on site. You know, the fire department had a -- they have a house right across the street. They were seeing some things that they were worried about for safety reasons for the people involved there. So I think that's the approach that they took was that we're -- you know, we're concerned about some of these things, and we want to make sure that you're all safe, and it's upsetting the residents in the area.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So those types of conversations, but they take a while to happen, and it requires patience on the part of the event commander.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how important was it then that the -- these two arms, the PLT and the POU kind of, that enforcement part, that they coordinate a coherent strategy in terms of the timing? Because you said you need to time it so that there's sufficient time for the protesters to cooperate; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, it's very important.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what happened in this case?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, I believe in this case, and I am not 100 percent, I think Inspector Lucas could probably provide you with more details, but Superintendent Patterson requested that the Public Order Team arrive at the location at Coventry, and I believe there was some back and forth that they did not feel that was -- that that should have happened when it did. They felt that PLT should have been given more time. And ultimately, Superintendent Patterson was very frustrated by that, that they were not engaging in -- when he wanted them there. I do believe that they did eventually attend, but the resulting action was that it really damaged the relationship with our PLT team, with the OPP PLT team and with the event commander. That was a fractured situation after that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And just so we understand, when the enforcement action started, was the PLT team even notified that this was going to happen?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, they were not.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So were they caught in surprise?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Entirely off guard.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
As much as the protesters?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you spoke of a sense of betrayal, what do you mean? Is it ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think they had been experiencing frustration that whole week in terms of being able to negotiate with the convoy organizers. They had established fairly reasonable relationships and open lines of communication. And there was some back and forth leading up to this event. And they were not empowered to make decisions to be able to get those quick wins. One example was porta potties. You know, that the organizers had asked for those to be delivered into the red zone. And the direction from the event commander was we’re not giving them one inch. So, you know, they will have to try and come up -- it was basically a win-lose scenario. If you leave, we’ll let you go. That was sort of where they were given direction that there was nothing beyond that for a period of time. And I think they were really frustrated by that, and I think the OPP team were frustrated as well. And there was some, you know, I received emails saying that they were going to walk, they’d had enough, that type of thing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, before this unfortunate incident happened, the PLT team actually had some success earlier that week, right, with the Confederation Park?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about the Confederation Park?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So Confederation Park is a location that happens to be right across the street from City Hall. And we were getting information, I can’t recall the exact date, but that people were setting up in Confederation Park and they had actually set up a food preparation area, like a little kitchen and a hut, and they had propane and they were really, you know, setting up for being there for a while. And so this caused, obviously, the Mayor and a number of people concern that this was going on. They were concerned for the safety of having, you know, fuel and those types of things. So our PLT team went in to speak to the people who had set up in there and they engaged them in conversation and started to try and get some movement there. It took several days, and much to the frustration, I think, of former Chief Sloly, as well as a number of city officials, but we were able to -- we brought in an Algonquin Elder, because they had indicated that that was -- that they were from the Algonquin Nation and that they -- you know, this was a means to try and engage in conversation and get to a middle ground we could. Ultimately, they were able to talk people into leaving that area on their own and cleared the park and were able to secure it.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the Confederation Park was one example where the surge, contain, and enforce proved unnecessary, because the PLT team did its work?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I want to take you to -- back to your notes, which relates to the Coventry incident. So we’re back to OPS00014479. Page 55. So Deputy Chief, if you want to look at your hard copy, I’m taking you to the time around 17:18, so 5:18 p.m.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I actually don’t have my hard copies in front of me. I left them with ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- a colleague, but ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well then we’re all on the same page.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The same electronic page.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Very good.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So page 55. Now do you see: “Conversation w DC Bell re[garding] the operation @ Coventry road.” And then if we go down: “weighing all options…”
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
“…including state of emergency. Advised we may lose OPP PLT if we do actions.”
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So that’s what you were just describing to us?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And if we go further down, page -- the next page, 56, please? I want to take you to the part that says: “PLT is pissed - OPP has left - set [up] back…” Could you read it to us? Is it “set up --”
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah: “set us back days or a week [on PL -- or a week] our PLT is demoralized and Marin is very upset Patterson was not there”
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. “set us back days or a week on PLT”. What do you mean by that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Any ground that they had gained, any relationship that they had made at that point in time had been damaged significantly and it would take them days or weeks to re-establish that rapport.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The person who was very upset, who was that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That was Insp. Marin, who was working with S/Sgt. Stoll on the Public Order Team.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what did you mean when you said Patterson was not there?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That he was not at the scene, I don’t believe.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
At the time when ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
At the time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- when the enforcement action happened?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I see. Now, we’ve spoken to Insp. Lucas back in the summer and he said that the Coventry operation was an example of the OPS prioritizing a quick win on enforcement without an overall plan that integrated the role of the PLT in operational decisions. What’s your view on that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s exactly my view on that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I want to ask you about the Former Chief Sloly’s attitude towards negotiating with protestors. I want to take you to the document -- I believe these are minutes of meetings involving him. So OPS00014479. Oh, it’s the same. At page 63. I want to take you to the part where he seems to have asked the question -- so he -- the question: “…why […] negotiate w unlawful protestors…” Do you see that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Okay. So sorry: “Chief has said he does not know why we would negotiate w unlawful protestors…”
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
M’hm.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember this kind of sentiment being expressed by the former chief?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I do.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What -- can you tell us more?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So I don’t think that the chief -- I know he had some former public order experience, but I don’t think he had used PLT as much as we were, you know, experienced here in Ottawa. We, you know, have had people trained on this for a number of years and it has served us incredibly well in a lot of demonstrations and really taken the temperature down and been able to get us, you know, longer term wins, but wins where people walk away safely, where they feel like they were heard, and that their goal was met. And that is part of it, because we want to make sure that we’re, you know, we’re not creating a situation that they will be coming back again. So our PLT, I knew, had that capacity. I was familiar with the program. I was involved. I was a superintendent when we had a previous demonstration that shut down a major intersection not long before this, and we used the PLT quite successfully in that. but after that event, they came to me and said, “We need more people. We need a little bit more importance placed on this, because it really is an amazing tool.” And so they convinced me and they said they were, you know, would like to get more people trained, and I approved that, and that did happen. And I’m glad we did have a number for this protracted event so we were able to rely on them. It also creates good will with other police services. And so in this case, the OPP stepping in to assist us in this bolstered our numbers that we were definitely needing. And it means that you have to be able to work in an integrated manner. I don’t believe Chief Sloly was familiar with the framework. There is a national framework that has been developed on police response to demonstrations, and this was borne out of a lot of Indigenous -- protracted Indigenous demonstrations. And the OPP, obviously, have had a number of experiences with that. So what they brought to the table was very valuable to our team. And I believe, as you cited Insp. Lucas’ assessment of Chief Sloly, and I think Supt. Patterson as well was on that page, was that we were needing to demonstrate to the community that we were actually -- we were taking actions. And I understand the pressure and stress that they were -- they both felt. I felt it as well. But I also felt that we were going to be judged on this, here we are all these months later, on our coming out of this with as few people hurt as possible, as, you know, much good will as possible, that we haven’t burnt any bridges with our community, with other policing agencies, and with anyone, really. So I felt that taking a longer-term approach and potentially getting a, you know, a bigger win at the end was the way to go. And I, you know, was receiving information that crowds, generally 80 percent of people are law-abiding and they want to follow laws, and if you give them an opportunity to have a win they will often go on their own. And so those were some of the things that I felt we needed to give that a really good try, and I don't believe Chief Sloly, at this stage in it, was feeling the same way about it.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But surely we can understand the pressure that the Chief was under.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Absolutely.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
We heard from the residents last week that they were feeling abandoned, basically, by the police. They felt helpless and very frustrated. Is it fair to say, then, that within the OPS there was disagreement as to the most appropriate way to approach the situation and to resolve it?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
(Off mic)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, thank you for that suggestion. I believe this is February 6th. But let's scroll up so we don't have to guess. Keep going up. Oh, February 8th. Okay. So now, on February 8th, the same day that -- as this meeting, a new development happened, and that's that arrival of the Integrated Planning Group, led by the OPP Chief Superintendent Pardy and the RCMP Superintendent Lew (ph); right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us what that was all about.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So at the time, it was actually only in reviewing and preparing for this that I realised how they came about at the time. I was not sure what the genesis of them arriving was, but my understanding is it was some non-OPS leaders, police leaders, who determined that Ottawa needed help, and assessed that they could come in and assist us in providing a plan. We had been asking for resources, Chief Sloly had been going to a variety of services, mostly with the RCMP and the OPP, requesting assistance in the way of police resources. And I think what they were trying to -- this group was trying to determine how many people we needed and what was, you know, what was the ultimate goal and what was the plan, and we struggled a little bit with coming up with a plan per se. So like I mentioned earlier, the concept of Operations, that was part of what we were working on there to provide them those services to say, "This is what we are hoping to do and this is how we would like to do it in broad strokes", not without, like a full, full plan. And so this team, I was made aware of them. I was spoken to -- Carson Pardy reached out to me by phone and said he was coming into town, and that they were here to assist, and in helping us to, you know, work out the details of our plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I understand that there was a meeting, the first meeting between the OPS and the Integrated Planning Group happened on the 8th ---
Diane Deans, Councillor (Ott)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- at around 5:35 p.m.; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
You've referred -- you've told us about this Strategic Concept of Operations. Was that something that you came up with?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, along with some of the points that you saw the Chief ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- you know, suggest on the 5th, and so this was, yeah, a loose, I would say, framework that we had come up with.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I want to show you a one-page document and see if that's the document that you were referring to.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
OPP00000774. Not OPS, OPP. Okay, can we go down? Oh, I see. Page 77, please. Is there a way for us to rotate the view? No? All right, then -- now, I wanted -- it may be a little challenging, but let's see if we can read the Mission Statement. So it's near the top: "The Ottawa Police Service, in a collaborative approach with other police agencies, federal, provincial and city partners..." Sorry, I'm missing the last word on...
So I think help is on the way, Commissioner.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can we try the rotation button on the top? I'm not sure it's doing it. Okay. So: "...federal, provincial and city partners, community organizations..."
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry, I wonder if I could interrupt for a second. I don't know about the witness, but I can tell you it's nearly impossible to read from where I'm sitting. It may be the case that this document exists in some other format elsewhere in the record. I don't know if we can take a minute to try to find it. I just don't want to be unfair to the witness.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Of course.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so do you want to take a short break?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why don't we do that.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we can take our morning break, 15 minutes, and we'll come back in 15 minutes.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:00 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:14 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.
ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF PATRICIA FERGUSON, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Commissioner. So during the break, we managed to resolve the technical issue. The document that I read out the document number of previously was an OPP document, but there is a duplicate provided by the OPS, and the document number is OPS00008518. And so we're now showing the OPS version of the same document, and this one is easier to read.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. FRANK AU (Cont'd)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if I could take you, Deputy Chief, to the Mission Statement. This is the Strategic Concept of Operation that you've developed, and the Mission Statement says: "The Ottawa Police Service, in a collaborative approach with other police agencies, federal, provincial and city partners, community organizations and the event organizers will provide a safe and secure environment in the City of Ottawa during the Freedom Convoy 2022 event. The primary goal is to end the protest peacefully. This may be achieved through proactive engagements by all officers including Police Liaison Teams, facilitating communication, de-escalation and negotiation as means to achieve a peaceful resolution." So there was an inclusion of the engagement process, and specifically, the Police Liaison Team here. With that in mind, I want to take you to... Now -- so we were -- before the break, we were talking about this meeting, initial meeting, with the Integrated Planning Group at 5:35 p.m., right, on February 8th.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was it at that meeting that you presented this strategic concept of operations?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I’m not sure if it was this document per se, but I believe we had the same points established.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, about two hours after this meeting at 7:30 p.m. the same day, there was a command team meeting. And I want to take you to the minutes of that meeting. This is OPS00014454 at page 124. So you see a reference of something the former Chief said. He said, “People came to assess my readiness and if we’re ready to receive their resources.” We go down further. The Chief said, “Enforcement is where we need to be. We need to show teeth and that the officers”. It seems to be an incomplete sentence in the notes, but do you recall this command team briefing?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Can you refresh my memory as the time of this?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
7:30 p.m.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Then I do remember that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell us the nature of what was discussed at this meeting?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So the Chief wanted sort of -- it was a meeting after the meeting to determine what my perception of what was taking place here. And as I was the only one who actually was physically at the location with the other partners, everyone else called in on the phone. I believe I had a scribe with me who took notes for me. So the Chief was -- he was late to join the call for a very good reason, but was unable to hear the initial part of it. And I think he was disappointed that we weren’t able to be on Teams. It was an RCMP facility. So there were a few things about it I think he was frustrated about it, and he wanted to know what my perception of, you know, their position and more of sort of a strategic what do you think they’re looking for from us in order to give us resources.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you tell him?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
My sense is that they were here to help, and I shared that with him. I knew some of the -- Carson Pardy, for one, was somebody who I’d worked on a committee with before. I knew him to be a very genuine, good man, and I felt that they were here in response to the fact that we needed some help, and that’s what they were doing with -- without reservation.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And how would you -- how you describe the former Chief’s perspective on this?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He seemed to be suspicious of what the -- why they were here, you know, why couldn’t they just give us the resources that we were asking for. I think he was feeling tested, and we all were being tested, I think, to a certain degree, where is our plan, what is -- -- you know, what is our goal, what do we -- what’s the impact we’re trying to achieve. So they were asking some pointed questions.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, if we go to the next day, February 9th, early that morning at around 7:10 a.m. there was another briefing involving the Chief, you and, I believe, perhaps Deputy Chief Bell as well. And I want to show you the document OPS00014479. So this is perhaps your notes.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I know it’s page 66 of the electronic record. So do you see at around 7:10 a.m. there was a reference to the Chief briefing the team?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And the top, “Mission Hydra”. Does that ring a bell?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it does.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us what that means.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I was unfamiliar with what Hydra was. I guess it’s a mythological Greek figure. But he spoke about it -- you know, this thing having many heads and so, you know, we needed to, as I wrote here, “cut off and cauterize the heads”. So as we were able to take control of a situation, then we held that position. I think that’s what he was referring to as cauterizing. It was a term that I’ve not used in event planning before.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Just to help us understand, what did you understand the many heads to be an analogy of?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So I think this was his seven points strategy, and I think each of them was one of the means that we would be able to use to bring this to an end.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I see. Carry on.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay. So he had called us all in there, I think, in response to the meeting of the night before and my assessment of things that I don’t know that he necessary agreed with or I might not have instilled the confidence that he was hoping to hear, so he set out to -- all of us to meet and then to actually put this plan into some form of a visual documentation which you saw. That was one of our very adept planners who was -- or project manager who was able to come up with that visual that you saw that we shared with them with the -- each of the different points and how we were going to go about affecting those actions.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, you made a note about, in the middle of the page, “very aggressive posture, language throughout the whole briefing and mission statement”. What’s the next sentence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
“Asked if anyone needed clarifications”.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So what do you mean by “very aggressive posture”?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So he was very much at this point in time, I would say, frustrated by where we were at so many days into it, and I think he was, I would say, having challenges not allowing that to show. And so he had us all in a room, made sure that everybody came in at 7 o’clock and that we were all going to be part of this meeting and all hands on deck. We were going to get this written up and here’s what it’s going to look like.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, the plan that this Mission Hydra -- the plan that the former Chief wanted to carry out, we have a document that I believe is the one he referred to, and I want to show it to you to confirm it. Can we call up OPP0001889, please? It’s a plan that’s also been referred to by various witnesses as 3.0. Does that ring a bell?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it does.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What does that refer to, 3.0?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Generally what happens is plans develop and you have versions of them and for everybody’s sake these, when you are sending a plan around for people to see, you put the most recent version of it, so I think that’s what the 3.0. And I think we dropped the “Hydra”. I don’t think that was necessarily a plan name we wanted to go with, so I think this is what replaced that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So are you able to confirm, then, that this is the plan that the former Chief wanted, the one that he spoke to you about on that morning at 7:10?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe so. If we could just scroll up beyond maybe the first page or two. Yes, that looks to be correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, if we can go to page 6. I believe that’s where the mission statement is. This is a shorter mission statement compared to the Strategic Concepts of Operations document that you had provided the day before. And this one simply says, “To end the unlawful elements of the Ottawa truck demonstration and restore safe and open neighbourhoods and businesses.” There’s no reference to the engagement process of to PLT. Tell us about any discussions you may have had with the Chief on that point.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So coming from the world that I had before my experience as an Incident Commander, when we are engaging in any event, we will give our if you say commander’s intent or mission of what we are trying to achieve and it always begins with -- my training has indicated it always begins with to safely negotiate the unlawful elements of the -- you know, and carry on. And you start with that really focus on negotiation as a starting point. I think my recollection of that meeting was he and I had some arguments, I will say -- we had a discussion, we had a disagreement on that and, ultimately, he said it was understood that we were going to be negotiating and he did not want it to be in the mission statement, so this mission statement is what was put in in the end.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So I want to go back now to the -- to your notes, OPS00014479, at page 66, because there's some subsequent notes that I want to ask you to clarify. So do you see: "At 7:20, chief said -- chief laid out his plan, omitted negotiations, and when I brought it up, he reacted angrily, saying, 'We're not negotiating.'" It's better that you read it.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sure. "Then said it's implicit. I advised our CIC mission statement always have explicitly stated in the mission statement if it doesn’t reduce the size of the footprint, that is not a good negotiation."
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So that was the exchange?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And that was at 7:10 a.m. And then later that morning, at 9:15 a.m., there was another meeting with -- the chief had with you and Deputy Chief Bell. This is at the next page, page 67. That’s okay. Sorry, go up. Oh, sorry, yeah, sorry, go down a little bit. Do you see the part where the chief said -- he said, "Anyone" -- I'll let you read it.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sure. Anyone who undermines the operational plan, he will crush them. And I wrote in my -- in brackets that he said it twice, and I noticed that his chin was twitching. I was kind of aghast at the comment, and that anyone who executes the plan will be supported. The takeaway was, don’t bother arguing with anything that Patterson offers. Chief and he are in communication and whoever gets in their way will be crushed.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand the chief to convey by those comments?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That this was the plan we were going ahead with, and that he didn’t want to hear any further dissenting positions on it. This was where we were going.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, if we go down further -- okay. Here, we just talked about the plan.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Talked about the plan for briefing the embedded cell. I think those are planners and commanders, and he spoke of a type of conspiracy that is happening at provincial and federal levels, that this team is being handled by their political masters and promoted to the idea that they're not really here to help.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So before you carry on, the cell or the team, is that the integrated planning group that just came to Ottawa?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it is.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The one that you met with the day before?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, and that we were planning to meet with that same day around noon with this plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So do you remember this conversation?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Very well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand him to mean by political masters and so on?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe he thought that was all very politically influenced, and I will, you know, say at the outset, I was five or six weeks into being an Acting Deputy Chief at this point in time, and did not have the same view, but I have not lived the -- you know, the same number of years that Chief Sloly had in that realm. And so I felt they were simply cops coming to help cops, and he had a different view from, I guess, his experience in the conversations that he was having at that point in time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Now, so these are your notes, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
But this meeting is also being recorded as a form of minutes by other people?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So I want to take you to another record. This will be OPS00014454, and I want to take you to page 113, please. If we go down a bit? Keep going. Okay. So there's a reference at Comm. C, OPP. Is that Commissioner Carrique of the OPP?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I believe that’s who he is.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Is assessing if we are worthy of getting the additional ask resources, and there's a note that -- Trish is you, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That you said, "I want us to limit politics." And the chief said, "Last week, we didn’t have an incident command. Everyone was running with confusion. Now we know our roles as of noon." "Does that -- none of us did our jobs last week in what our teams needed? We need to stay focused and stick to the plan." And then we have the minutes recording you saying, "They're here to help. Not sure why we're --- "
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s "forcing them".
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
"--- forcing them to arrive here." And the chief said, "The last night was amateur hour." Do you recall this?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I do.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Can you give us the context and what was -- what you remember was exchanged?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. So that morning, the chief had said, you know, when we were sitting in that briefing room, that they will be coming down to 474 Elgin, and we will be presenting our plan there. There was probably five or six of them, and we had a full team ourself. And I suggested that perhaps a better option was to go out to where they were set up. They had come in from out of town. Some of them didn’t know Ottawa, but they were already out at the -- one of the RCMP stations, and that we could go out there and present. There was plenty of room. I had just been there the night before. It was set up. And the chief said something to the effect of, "This is the strategy. This is a -- you know, I don’t expect you to understand, but this is our house and we're going to do this in our house." So I felt that was a bit of a power move that I didn’t think was necessarily was necessary in the circumstances, because I really did feel that they were here to help and why are we inconveniencing them? The chief referred to it as, you know, having -- we shouldn't have to drive out to the boonies to go and -- he called it "Farrhaven" to go for this meeting. So that was what that conversation was. And then when he talks about last night being amateur hour, that’s what I was alluding to in that we couldn't get the computer set up, we couldn't get Teams going. It was, you know, different agencies, different key fobs, and that type of thing. So that’s where his frustration was in that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So you mentioned that you were going to meet with the group again that day, and I believe that meeting took place at 12:10 p.m.; am I right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it sounds right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if I could take you back to your notes now, OPS00014454 at page 136? Oh, I'm sorry. That’s not your notes. It's the same document. I apologize. So if we just go down a few pages to page 138, if we go down further. Okay. I want to ask you about this. So we're now at the meeting with the integrated planning group, and the chief asks this question. "We can add the information that was provided by the RCMP, but we haven't agreed not to proceed with our plan for tonight."
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember this?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What was that about?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That was the plan for an actions on -- at Rideau and Sussex that Supt. Patterson had proposed and was working towards executing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Tell us about Rideau Sussex. The Commission has heard some evidence about why that intersection might be problematic.
I'm sorry to interrupt. Can we just establish the date of this meeting, please?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
It is at February the 9th at around 12:10 p.m. So ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So Rideau and Sussex, from the start of the arrival on the convoy was a contentious and volatile, I would describe it, intersection. The people who were there, the protesters or the -- the people who were there were -- they seemed to be operating on their own. They were known to us as the Farfadaas. I believe they were a group that was originally mostly from Quebec, from the Quebec area -- I’m not sure exactly where -- and they were -- I would say the ones that were, they were antagonistic. Over the course of the convoy, you know, when people were trying to leave, they were the ones, I would say, intimidating people saying, “Hold the line. You’re not going anywhere,” those types of things. And because of the location where they were, that was a major intersection that we were trying to gain back and their presence there certainly contributed to the Rideau Centre being closed, which was obviously one of our major businesses in the city and was suffering as a result, and we were trying to open that intersection up to be able to get -- you know, there’s obviously access to Quebec that comes with that, and the Byward Market.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was the plan that was discussed at that meeting?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So they were planning on -- and it wasn’t so much -- actually, I think it was discussed at this meeting. Supt. Patterson presented his plan after we -- I gave the presentation on our concept of operations and he described how he planned on taking that intersection, and it was involving Public Order Units, a number of troops, or a number or “sections’ as they’re called, were going to be employed in taking the areas, making arrests, and then holding that area, consequently.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, we’re going to hear from Supt. Abrams later today, as I said, and we expect him to -- he may say that he was quite critical of this OPS plan; he thought it unsafe. And he thought, also, in that discussion that Supt. Patterson might have represented the PLT involvement. What is your perspective on that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would agree with that. I believe he told the team, or the people at that meeting, that they were engaged when Supt. Abrams specifically asked him, “Are they aware? Have they been engaged to this point? And have they exhausted all other measures?” And I believe Supt. Patterson’s response was yes, they had.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So that meeting between the OPS Command Team and the Integrated Planning Group took place at around noon and then, at 1:40 p.m., the OPS Command Team had a debriefing; do you remember that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Vaguely.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So if we go down to the next page, 139. So do you see “OPS debrief from meeting with the OPP/RCMP meeting”? And it recorded the Chief as saying: "As far as I consider, keep going. Nothing has changed until I hear something different coming from the RCMP and OPP." So I just want to be clear here because at that meeting, right, at the meeting with the Integrated Planning Group, there were at least two things being discussed, one was the degree of integration. There was the OPS Plan 3.0 and I understand that the RCMP and Chief Pardy, they were also starting to prepare a kind of plan to support what the OPS had?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, they were.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right, so there were those two plans and then there was these Rideau/Sussex discussion ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- at the same time. So just to be clear, when the Chief said here, “As far as I consider, keep going,” do you recall the context? Was he referring to the integration issue or was he referring to the Rideau/Sussex issue?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I’m actually not sure that I was at this meeting. These are, I believe, our Legal Services notes so I don’t know that I was there and heard that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So it may not be fair for me to comment on what it is that he was saying if, on the face of it, it looks to me like he’s talking that action that we were planning.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right. Now, moving on to the next day, February 10th, at 11:00 a.m. -- now, I can take you back to your notes, and that is OPS00014479. If we could go to page 75, please. So do you see that first bullet: "Patterson said the OPP want to make sure this stays in Ottawa and have no interest in resolving this. They only want to negotiate and not do any actions on." And then the next line says: "I disagree."
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us about that exchange.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So this was in relation to the actions on at Rideau and Sussex and this was out daily briefing so there was a number of people on that call and this was -- Supt. Patterson had not got the plan approved and it had not been carried out in the overnight hours as they were hoping, and so he was updating the team as to what happened and his perception of what the OPP’s, I guess, ultimate goals were. And at the same time, there were things happening across the province.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, when we spoke about this, about this day, during our interview back in the summer, you said February 10th was probably the worst day in your professional career.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why was that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So this meeting -- this was -- you know, as you were showing here, this is a series of discussions that I’m having with both the Event Commander who’s reporting to me and Former Chief Sloly about the approach that I felt we needed to be taking. And as the Major Event Commander, I was trying to drive in that direction and was continually getting pushback, some of it very public and some of it, you know, behind closed doors. And this was a meeting, when we got to this point, Supt. Patterson was also very frustrated and he was, you know, presenting his point to the group. And so there was a comment made during this meeting where he, in my estimation, maligned one of our most seasoned Critical Incident Commanders on a decision that he made not to approve this plan and he chalked it up to him not being involved and not knowing enough and that’s why he didn’t approve it. And so at the end of the call, once we did all the checks that we did on these briefings -- go through communications, through, you know, “What’s the update? How many people on the Hill?” those types of things -- once that was completed, I had asked for a number of people to stay on the call. So, you know, our corporate communication folks would have dropped off, and some of the other players, but the Chief was one, Supt. Patterson was on. I don’t know all of the people who remained on the call but our legal -- Christiane Huneault was on that call as well and I started by saying, “I want to clarify the role of the Incident Commander.” In this case, it was Supt. Burnett who had not approved the plan that Patterson put forward for actions on at Rideau and Sussex, and he had his reasons for it and a lot of them related to safety of our members and it was involving POU teams from other police services who had also expressed their concern about the safety of this action to Supt. Burnett. And so I wanted to clarify that and to say that I didn’t believe that these types of actions were going to -- that they were a good move at this point in time. If we had said we were going to negotiate, which is what we agreed to with the OPP just yesterday when we presented our -- it was yesterday -- when we presented that plan, then that’s what we had to commit to, and I didn’t feel we were doing that and I felt we were doing a disservice to everybody involved, and not to mention, you know, putting pressure on -- and putting our members at risk. They had been swarmed by protestors at this location before. We knew that they had that potential and so this of all of them was probably the most dangerous of all the intersections that we would take on. So I expressed that, and then you probably see conversation back and forth between myself and Superintendent Patterson, and the Chief weighed in. And then at one point in the meeting, Superintendent Patterson asked here, and you see in my notes, if Christiane Huneault, who was our legal -- our lawyer, was on the call, and she said, "I'm here." And he said, "I want this for the notes." And then he made, you know, I would say an attack on my integrity on behaviour that he felt that I was engaging in that was unethical. And at that point in time, I, you know, indicated that I didn't think -- that no one said anything, so I said, "I don't -- you know, I think this is going to really be difficult for me to move forward in this position. I feel like I'm a fly in the ointment that's going on right now and that I'm fighting on two fronts, and that I wasn't willing to do that anymore." So I said to the Chief at that point, "If you need to remove me in order to be able to go ahead and carry out your plans, you're going to have to do that, but I cannot -- I fundamentally disagree with the way we were going, and that I couldn't put our members at risk in that way." So that was pretty much the end of the conversation. And the meeting ended at that point.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what decision did the former Chief make after that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He came to see me, and we discussed the situation. And I -- you know, in his defence, he didn't know me very well. He didn't know my history. He's come to the organization as an outsider, but I assured him that the behaviour I was being accused of was not, in fact, what was happening, and it involved, you know, myself and my husband colluding. My husband at the point was working with the PLT team, and that I was getting, you know, information that I shouldn't have been having at that point was really the accusation. And so I suggested to the Chief that if he really believes in the direction that he is suggesting, then I'm not the person to be the commander of this event. And so he said he would think about it, and at the end of our conversation, he ultimately said, "I will keep you as the event commander, but you must promise me that you are going to take some days off, that you need a couple of days rest."
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Not event commander. Strategic commander.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sorry, strategic commander, yes. That -- and at that point in time, you know, I had been working a number of days in a row. It felt a little bit like I had gotten emotional, and he walked into my office right at the tail end of that meeting, and I was frustrated, and I was angry, so it felt a little bit like he was saying, you know, you need to go home and get some rest. He was probably right, but I was a little bit frustrated by that, and I'm frustrated in hearing that it sounds like I was sent home because I was on the wrong side of things. As Chair Deans said yesterday that that was not the case. I think it was out of concern for, you know, for where I was at. Certainly, I was angry, frustrated and upset. And he said, "Deputy Bell will take over for a couple of days. Go home, get some rest because I need you healthy for the long run."
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So you did take some rest ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I did.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- on the 11th and the 12th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then you came back on the 13th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now when the Chief made the decision to remove Superintendent Patterson, who stepped in?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So at that point in time, it was Superintendent Bernier who was requested to come in.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Were you involved in that decision?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I was. The Chief and I discussed it as to what options we had, and Superintendent Bernier was ultimately the decision at that stage.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why was he selected?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He has lots of experience in the Public Order world, but also in planning and in specialized events, that type of thing. He has been, you know, incident commander, event commander, and has worked in that world quite a bit.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm. Now before I -- before we get to your return on the 13th, I just want to show you another document. It is one that I've shown you before during our interview. If I could call up the document number OPP00004283? If we can just look at the first page? Can we do that? So this appears to be a draft document prepared by the Integrated Planning Group. And these are the services involved, right, the RCMP, OPP, TPS is Toronto Police, YRP ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
York Region.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- York Regional Police, and what's PRP?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Peel Regional Police.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. So this document is a draft dated February the 10th. Can we go back to the title, please? SMEC proposal, what is that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
SMEC is a term that's used in both military and policing and it's basically Situation, Mission, Execution and the C can stand for Command or Communication but ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
M'hm. Now if we go to section 3.1 of this draft proposal? It appears that the group was trying to get a sense of where things were at as of that time on February the 10th. It seems to be an assessment of the current situation that the OPS had to confront with. And these are -- well, we see the list. Can we go down the list? I don't mean the -- I don't mean scrolling down, but I mean, Deputy Chief, can you tell us -- look at each bullet and tell us your perspective on whether this list accurately reflected the state that the OPS found itself in as of the 10th of February.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So "Not Intelligence Led." I think that's fairly accurate. We were not really relying on the intelligence to formulate the actions and the things that we were doing.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Does that include the preplanning phase, or are you referring strictly to the February 10th ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I'm thinking just of the state that we were in the 9th, 10th when I'm assuming this was drafted up.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Yeah.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
"Participants have the initiative." This was, in fact, something that was becoming -- we were becoming aware of this. There were retired police and military members in the protest, and they knew a number of our, you know, police tactics, and they had a chief of security, and they were really, you know, keeping themselves in those types of, I guess, command. So I think that is true. "Reactive, tactical, aggressive, [and taking] risks." I would agree with that. Some of the actions that they were seeing us doing, whether that was the interdiction of fuel, those types of things that the Chief was hoping for us to make some headway there ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Would that include the Rideau Sussex POU action?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it would. "Poor communications, no communication strategy," I think that's fair. There was some good communications and I shouldn't paint everybody with that brush, but certainly at -- I know that our Intelligence folks who were working with OPP members and that, there was communication going on there, and some people were more effective at it than others, but I think it's a fair step. "Unclear and vague Command and control." I think we had a system in place, but we had players who were, you know, jumping up or jumping down the -- our Incident Command structure. "Unqualified trained leadership." We had lost a lot of our subject matter experts in the four, five years leading up to this. We used to be really, really strong and, you know, our response to -- when I think of what happened here in 2014, the shooting on Parliament Hill, we were subject matter experts and we had leaders in that area, and a lot of that had gone with retirement. And because we hadn't had any big events, you know, with COVID, with a no presidential visits, none of those things, we hadn't flexed those muscles. And so this was obviously unprecedented in terms of its size and the type of thing we were dealing with. So I don't know whether unqualified is fair. I would think that there's some people in that chain who would say that they very much are qualified, but I think from an OPP or somebody looking in maybe would see that. No poor -- "no or poor partner collaboration." I would agree.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What does that refer to?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, I believe at the strategic level. The relationship was strained. And whether that was Chief to Chief or Chief with some of the City partners, some of the, you know, political people who needed to be involved. We did have, I would say, good collaboration. Kim Ayotte and I spoke fairly regularly in terms of, you know, “What are your people seeing and what are you experiencing” How can we support? How can help?” Those types of conversations were going on fairly regularly, but at certain levels we were not seeing that same level of collaboration. “Focused on local issues only.” I believe that statement that Supt. Patterson made was right, and I also recall former Chief Sloly saying, “I’m not -- I don’t care about what’s going on elsewhere. Ottawa is where I need to, you know, have my focus.” And, you know, from his perspective I can understand that. But we did know that when we took actions here it had ripple effects across the country; these were very connected, reactive people. “...only maintenance and not resolution.” And I believe that OPS focus -- that was our focus, and a lot of that had to with simply the realities of our staffing situation. The “Boots on the ground” are officers who were at posts and who were taking on those roles, and I think fairly accurate to say low morale. They were frustrated. Some of them were left out for hours in the cold without the ability for them to be freed up or provided meals. “Lack of leadership/confidence in command - no clear direction.” I think that’s -- we did hear some of that, especially from the PLT folks. “Physical &” I’m assuming that’s mental, mentally “exhausted. Poor decision making.” I’m not sure what the “Longer” is referring to but I think the -- you know, obviously we were not our best selves at that moment and maybe weren’t making the best decisions, and the, “Information sharing [was] - incomplete and unknown command structure.” And the operational plan not being signed off. That’s fair.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let’s take that a bit further, “Information sharing - incomplete and unknown command structure”; do you agree with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, there’s -- we use different command structures than the OPP and the RCMP, and so I think they were looking to see us following true models. They vary slightly but I do think at points we were not following the command structure ,and I believe that, you know, as I alluded to before, we had people who were jumping -- jumping chains and maybe getting down into areas they didn’t need to be to try and speed things up, I think that was probably the ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in terms of information sharing, did you see that as an issue between OPS and external agencies, or was that an issue within the OPS itself?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t think I experienced that myself, that there was lack of information sharing internally. But I’m assuming if they are -- no, I can’t make that assumption. I don’t know what ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- they are referring to, specifically.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall when we interviewed you back in the summer, you described some challenges to us, in terms of this sharing of intelligence within the OPS?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Tell us more about that.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So our Intelligence unit gets all sorts of information, obviously, and they go through it and there is an analysis piece that takes place with the information, the intelligence that they get. And they will determine, often, who that is -- relates to. And sometimes it’s one of those things that is a “Nice to know” and we will hang onto that and do up a report, and sometimes it’s something that needs to be actioned by somebody. And I think we were still relying -- at this point in time, we have since evolved, but we were relying on them being the keepers of that information and it being shared on a need-to-know basis. And you know, up until this point the major things that they were looking into were organized crime and were, you know, national security threats, not so -- I mean, that was obviously the purview of the RCMP, but those types of things. And so they would share information like, you know, the latest ITAC threat and some of those pieces of information as needed. But it was really a hierarchy and if you were not in that level, then you didn’t necessarily receive that information.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Do you think those barriers that existed back in around January, February impeded the degree of integration of the planning and the intelligence in preparing OPS for the arrival of the convoy?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think it’s fair to say it may have had an impact on it. I think what we were missing was that bridge between Intelligence and Special Events to operationalize the information that they had, and we were lacking there.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now -- and the point about “Lack of leadership”; looking back, what do you think you could have done differently to provide more leadership?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s a good question. I think to convey to the people who reported to me that we are -- this is -- you know, we are moving forward in this direction; to express my trust in them maybe a little bit more vocally; to let them know, you know, they were the subject matter experts, they had all the -- you know, the information that they needed, and we needed to come up with a plan. I think, again, a lot of the issues were staffing, and so try to rotate people to provide them with a rest, provide them with the -- you know, the ability to breathe and focus on what they needed to, and maybe I needed to be more task-driven in terms of, you know, “We need this plan and I need it by such-and-such a time.” Those types of things. Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, I’ve asked you about your leadership but what about when you look around, do you see other leadership issues around those around you?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. I think policing in gen4eral attracts a certain type of a person to it and I think there’s a lot of very strong characters, and one of the things that I felt we maybe could have done better was listening to each other and communicating better and being a little more cohesive as a command team. And I think in moments of stress and crisis, people are not their best selves and maybe rely on behaviours that are not helpful in the moment, and you know, just show kind of the cracks that are coming through. And it was an incredibly long, exhausting, period of time for the Ottawa Police and I think many of our members are bruised as a result, if I can say that, and are still, you know, in that state. So it had a big toll, and obviously what took place, you know, in the top job and with the Council -- City Council showed just how difficult it was for everyone, not just OPS but for, you know, the community as well.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Now, we spoke a bit about Superintendent Bernier, who assumed the role of Event Commander as of the 10th, and so he would have been reporting to you when you returned on the 13th, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Right, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
How did you find him as a leader, as the Operation Commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Superintendent Bernier’s very intense, as you will likely get to know him. And he got right in, dug in and started to work on developing his plans. One of the parts of the conversation I do recall was he said, “I will accept this role,” because he needed some time to think about it; I think he understood this was a very big job. And he said, “With the understanding that I have a liaison between myself and strategic command. And so he identified somebody who, you know, he trusted who would be able to feed information to us and the strategic sort of command level, and he wanted to be unfettered; he wanted to be able to execute the command as -- or execute the plan as he saw fit, and that it was in his hands, it was very much a, “I got this.”
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Speaking of unfettered, does that go back to what you said earlier about the importance of having autonomy for an Operational Commander:
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Absolutely.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And who became that liaison person?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Supt. Rob Drummond.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you said Supt. Bernie insisted on the autonomy as well as the liaison. Why was the liaison so important?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think you’ll have to ask him that but my sense is that he wanted -- he didn’t want to be sucked into lots of meetings; he wanted to be able to work on the plan, and traditionally, up until this point, we had had a lot of meetings where the Event Commander is actually being taken away from the tasks of doing the job to talking about plans and this type of thing, and I think that he felt that was not a good use of his time. And I think he just wanted that flow of information to go through one person.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Well, Supt. Bernier will testify next week, and I expect he will tell us that one of the early decisions he made was to appoint OPP Superintendent Springer as his deputy.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Did you know about that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I did. In my first conversation with Superintendent Bernier, I said, “What do you need? What do you think you need to accomplish this?”. And he said, “I’m going to need sort of a back- up, I guess, if you will”. And I said, “Who do you want? Build your team. Tell me who you want and I will do what I can to make sure that those resources are afforded to you”. So he identified Dave Springer, who I knew as well, and said, “Can you see if he will do it?”. And in speaking with, at the time, Inspector Springer, he agreed. I had a phone conversation with him. He just said, “Can you please, you know, give my boss a call to make sure that they’re okay with it?”, which I did. And he joined the team at that point in time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. Tell us about the degree of integration in the days after your return. So you took two days off and you came back on the 13th. What did you find when you’d come back?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So by that point in time, people had their sleeves rolled up. They were all working at one location, all at, you know, sort of that level of the Superintendent Bernier, Chief Superintendent Carson Pardy. Chief Superintendent Phil Lew was also on the team. There was a room full of planners who they had brought in. There were experts in our traffic, in public order. Everybody was working at the same location. And I believe at that point in time -- I might be wrong on the date exactly -- but Superintendent Bernier was beginning to set up what he called his integrated table, and so each of the units that needed to be involved that were in an incident command structure had a spot at the table and that that could have been an OPP officer, it could have been an RCMP officer, it could have been Ottawa Police.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So I understand from interviewing Superintendent Bernier that a plan that he worked on with the Integrated Planning Group was signed off as between him and the other members of the group. But it appears there might be some confusion around that time just as to what extent additional review or approval may or may not have been required from strategic level commanders, including yourself or the former Chief. So I want to take you to an email chain and see if you can help us clarify some of this confusion. Could we call up document OPP00001547, please? So if we go down to the very bottom to the beginning of the email chain, so Deputy Chief, you see that this email began with the former Chief sending you an email as a request. He said: “Please send me the latest version of operations plan that I approved on Wednesday, February the 9th.” Now, which operations plan did you understand him to be referring to?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe this was the 3.0.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The 3.0. And then he also asked: “Also, please advise if the plan has received all official approvals, signatures, etc., as there seems to be some concerns about this from the RCMP.” Tell us about this.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So I’m not sure if this was at the Chief’s level, whether it was Commissioner Lucki or where that -- the concerns were coming from within the RCMP, but we did have Chief Superintendent -- or Superintendent Bill Lew from the RCMP involved in our plan at that point in time. I do know that in Ottawa there’s the national policing side and then there is the operational policing side for the RCMP, and so I don’t know if there was a disconnect there in terms of that communication, but Superintendent Lew had been working on the plan, the plan was moving forward and had been built out from what we had supplied, the 3.0. That’s what they had been working on from that date forward, from the 9th of February to the 13th, on these plans. And Superintendent Bernier was receiving these plans, reviewing them and then approving them.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So in this one email, he seems to be referring to two different plans.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we go further up, we see your reply at 5:58. Now, by the way, in between the request and your reply, did you speak to anyone that you remember?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t recall.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let’s take a look at the reply: “Good evening, Chief. In checking with Rob Bernier, he finally had a chance to review the plan from the Integrated Planning Team and has sent it back with his comments. He would prefer that it be completed and signed off and will then share the plan, as he is the final approval of it.” As for 3.0, Ottawa Truck Demo ’22, February 9/22, it looks like you attached that 3.0 plan. So were you responding to both requests and trying to -- like I’ll let you tell us what you were trying to do.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It would appear I’m talking about two different plans, and I don’t believe I had seen these -- the integrated plan. Not before Superintendent Bernier had signed off on that. So I think what I’m saying is, he’s had a chance to review the plans. It’s a large document, lots of pages involved in details, and Superintendent Bernier wanted to go over all of them. And he’s obviously done a first review and sent it back with his comments to the people who were developing the plan and he’s saying he would prefer that he’s -- he’s had a chance to really make sure that it is tight and he’s happy with it before sharing the plan, and -- as he is the final approver. And I was making that point to say that it is up to him to approve the plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Up to?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Up to Superintendent Bernier to approve the plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in -- you said “in checking with Rob Bernier”. Does that refresh your memory?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. So I suspect I had a conversation with him probably over the phone about where things were at and what was going on.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we go further up, this is the former Chief replying to your response. He said: “Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware of this delay, as I had approved the plan last Wednesday.” Now, this is February 13th. And when he said, “I had approved the last Wednesday”, would that have been the 9th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I appreciate and support the need -- sorry. Yeah. “I appreciate and support the need for A/Supt Bernier to make adjustments to the plan that he inherited.” What did you understand the Chief to be saying here, adjustments in the plan “that he inherited”?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That he was simply building out the 3.0 plan. I think that’s what the Chief was assuming.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So were you left with the impression that -- like I -- like what did you understand? Because we started with you explaining that there were two plans. What did you understand the Chief to mean when he said this?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think the Chief was looking for what the plan was and that it was based on that plan that we had presented to the integrated ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
The 3.0.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So he appeared to suggest that there were adjustments made to the 3.0.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. When -- what, I think, Superintendent Bernier was doing was tasking the planners with “Give me a full, robust plan”, which we eventually see as the demobilization plan that we worked off of.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So while Superintendent Bernier was asking for action on the Integrated Planning Group plan, he wanted to have it move ahead, the former Chief was asking about the 3.0.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe that’s what’s going on here, yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And then he said: “That said, please ensure that the plan is fully signed off at the earliest possible opportunity as this is a priority need expressed by our integrated partners.” The plan in this third paragraph or fourth paragraph, to ensure that it’s fully signed off, what did you understand which plan he was referring to now, the 3.0 or the Integrated Group Plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe it was the Integrated Work Plan, the one that Superintendent Bernier was working on, and that, as I had alluded to, Superintendent Bernier wanted to -- he’d made some comments, he’d sent it back and when it came back to him the way he wanted it, he would sign off on and approve that plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So help me understand here. Was there simultaneous work being done on two plans as of the 13th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t believe so. I think the chief was under the impression that 3l0 was being worked on, but it was not. It was concluded, and I believe that’s what I sent him, was the final document with his signature on it that was from the Wednesday prior. And what I knew was that Superintendent Bernier was working very hard, tasking his people to come up with plans, traffic plan, you know, public order plan, PLT plan, all of the plans that form his ultimate demobilization plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, when you were responding to the chief's request on this day, have you seen the integrated group plan yet?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I have not.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. So his last paragraph to you: "As such, please communicate by email to the OPP and RCMP the reason for the delay in the approval ID, the current plan, along with the timeline that they will receive the approved plan. Copy Christiane an I on these emails." (As read) Christiane is the lawyer, right, the ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right, yeah.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand his request to be? Was he asking that the integrated group plan be actioned on?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think he wanted the final plan to be sent to the RCMP and the OPP, and to make sure that he and Christiane were copied when that was done. And I'm not sure if that was because he wanted to, you know, take a look at it as well and have Christiane over -- look it over, because that had been his practice before. We had -- he had asked for legal services to look over plans to make sure that they were meeting -- you know, that they were legally sound, I think was -- would have been his thought process on that. So I think he wanted me to make sure that our OPP and RCMP partners were provided the plan as soon as it was signed off on, and that he also wanted to have a look at it, but I don't know -- he said once the plan has been approved, so I think he understood at this point in time he was not the approver of the plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you speak about the lawyer reviewing documents as a practice, but we're talking about an operational plans here.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So the practice includes having legal review of operational plans?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It did for former Chief Sloly. It doesn’t in the ICS model. It's not part of the ---
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And in your experience, at the executive level, was that the practice of other chiefs?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand to be the significance or the reason that he wanted to have these kind of legal review?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I'm not quite sure. As I said, I think maybe because he wanted to make sure from her perspective it was legally sound, but these were operations, and so I think she would be the first one to tell you that she has no place in that.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And was it understood that the action, the plan could not be actioned on before the legal review was completed?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That, I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. All right. Can we go further up? Okay. So this is your -- this belongs -- "The plan that was sent to you just now is one that both party and Lou worked on to include the additional and necessary parts to ensure it met everyone's needs." (As read) So you are now sending the former chief the new integrated groups plan, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
"Both Carson and Phil were aware of the reason for the delay, as they have been in regular contact with Rob yesterday and into today. The plan now has the proper signatories on it and will be the one referenced, moving forward. I thank everyone for the patience ---" (As read) And so on. So was that the end of it for that day for you?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe so.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we go up to the top, we see that the former chief forwarded it to the RCMP and OPP Commissioner. "Please be advised our operational plan was updated per the integrated model with the input of your respective representatives and has now been fully approved." (As read) And we go further up. We have the Commissioner Carrique thanking the OPS chief. What was your understanding as to the status of this plan, the integrated groups plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That at the operational level, it had been signed off and this was simply a notification to the strategic level, that this was the plan we were going forward with.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
All right. Now, were you aware of any subsequent delay after the -- this is all on the 13th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think there might have been some further conversation about it, but I don’t have any independent recollection or exactly what that was right now.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How am I doing with the time? Okay. If I could now take you to the plan that was signed off on the 13th, I believe this is OPP00001851. Could we go to page 22, please? Oh, maybe further down. I'm looking for the organization chart. Now, this is a document that you didn’t see until later -- well, I guess on the 13th you had it, and you had an opportunity to review it. Tell us about this organization. Was this level integrated -- integration kept ever before, in your experience?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Hard to say. I have not been part one such as this before, so this was my first foray into this world, but it -- I think what you see are the dotted lines are, you know, the sort of even level of command and control, and then the straight lines are the -- who is reporting to who in that. So you see the event -- the strategic command that report to OPS command team, which would have been Superintendent -- or rather, former Chief Sloly. And then when we get down to the operational level -- and I think it's making pains to show the -- where one ends and the other begins, the clear lines in between strategical operational and tactical. And so then you see, you know, Superintendent Bernier as the event commander with support from both the OPP and the RCMP, but ultimately, that the Ottawa Police event commander is the lead on the command. So you see, he's got a straight line down to everybody else, and Deputy -- or Inspector Springer has a dotted line.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And we see in one of those blue boxes an executive liaison, Acting Superintendent Drummond. That’s what you talked about, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s correct.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And comparing -- we haven't seen - - we're not going to have time to look at the contents of this plan, but you've had the benefit of understanding this plan -- comparing this to what was the 3.0, can you describe -- summarize for us the main differences between those plans and which one was superior?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It's the level of detail that’s involved in this plan that makes it different. This is a true plan, and it encompasses all of the boxes that you see in there. It's got plans, sub-plans from each of those categories, and this is the superior plan.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I expect that we will hear more evidence from members of the integrated group who did not consider the 3.0 an adequate plan, the kind of plan that would enable the proper allocation and deployment of resources. What's your perspective on that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I would agree, and I can understand from their perspective. They were sending resources, they were providing us with bodies, and they wanted to know what's the impact that we're looking to achieve? What is our goal? And I don't think 3.0 maybe necessarily laid out as clearly as they needed to be able to invest the resources that we were asking for.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And what was stopping the OPS from developing this kind of plan earlier? It's had more than two weeks.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
These plans take a long time to draft up and what we benefitted from was an influx of members from -- like, people who are true planners, that that’s their one and only job, to come in and assist us and do this over a 24/7 basis. Our planners had been trying to -- you know, they came up with the plan and they had to go and execute it as well. So staffing, I think a -- some leadership and some subject-matter experts, Chief Supt. Carson Pardy is a guru as it pertains to these things and has done numerous protracted events and plans and demonstrations and so those key players to be able to have around the table and tap into lessons learned that they’ve already had before was key in crucial, and we did not that have that capacity before this time.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So, looking back, having regard to all that the citizens of Ottawa had to go through during those three and a half weeks, what could the OPS, in your view, have done differently or better to have shortened that period to resolve to incident or protest earlier?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think we had period after that first weekend where I say we were orienting ourselves. I think we were floundering a little bit in terms of our staffing, in terms of our ability to really take stock of what was going on and then move forward and come up with a plan to get out it, and I think we lost some time there. We lost some time with some of the, you know, actions-on that were being taken that were setting us back. We didn’t have a pathway, a clear pathway that we were working off of and there was a number of different views, obviously, on what we should be doing, so I think that set us back.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And finally, there may be a debate as to whether the plan should drive the number or the number should drive the plan. Do you know what I’m asking?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I do and I believe it’s common that the plan drives the numbers.
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why do you say that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, because you are identifying what the outcome’s that you want to achieve and then you work back from that, how do we then build a team that’s going to assist us in achieving that? And I think when you start with just a number, then there’s no strategy involved in that. And this does really need to be laid out in saying that we need, you know, 10 Public Order Sections to achieve this goal, so how many is that? That’s 50. But it’s more about, what is the outcome that we’re looking -- what are our goals and objectives and how do we staff to that?
Frank Au, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The first up in cross-examination is the OPP.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Thank you, Commissioner. I’ll set my clock here and try my best to stay within my allotted time.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CHRISTOPHER DIANA
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
All right, good afternoon, Superintendent. My name is Christopher Diana. I’m counsel for the OPP. There’s a few areas that I’d want to ask about just to get some more clarity to you evidence, and I want to start with kind of what was known before the convoy arrived in Ottawa. And I want to start by the basic proposition that Ottawa is very experienced at dealing with protests and large events. This is something that OPS deals with -- well, we’ve heard some evidence about the frequency but this is not an uncommon event, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It’s not uncommon for us to manage protests. This was an uncommon event.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Right, sure, sorry. And sometimes the events are large, sometimes they’re small, sometimes they’re predictable, for example, you know, Canada Day and other large events often kind of follow a certain pattern where you kind of know what to expect and you can plan accordingly; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would agree.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
But regardless of the nature of the event, whether it’s large or small, the gathering of intelligence is really important to planning the proper police response; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And we heard from Supt. Morris yesterday that intelligence has certain limits; would you agree with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I believe he said that when it comes to numbers, for example, you never know exactly how many vehicles or how many people are going to show up until the day of the protest itself; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s true.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And that’s just something that’s inherent in intelligence; there are no guarantees?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s true.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
But that, of course, doesn’t mean that you don’t plan; you make due with that you have available to you?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And in good planning, the intelligence that you have should drive the way an event is planned; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I would say intelligence and information.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yes, of course ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
--- there’s a difference, and I don’t want to get into that ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, okay.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
--- at this point. I won’t enough time. So when the Ottawa Police Service heard about the convoy leaving Western Canada, I expected the OPS would have immediately started planning for how to deal with it; is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think that’s fair.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And as a starting point, that requires collecting and reviewing information and intelligence to know how to respond?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
At that time, I believe you said you were not familiar with Project Hendon?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I was no, no.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Of course, in fairness, you were not in the Intelligence Bureau at the time, correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No. I believe it was -- was it Chief Bell who was the deputy -- who was involved in intelligence at the time?
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yes, he was.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
And he was head of the Bureau?
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
So he was the Deputy in charge of it but there was a superintendent who was in that position?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And I don’t know if you heard Supt. Morris’ evidence from yesterday but he gave a number of names of various individuals within Ottawa Police Service would have received copies of the Hendon Reports including, for example, Supt. Patterson, Chief Sloly, and Insp. Bryden, and others; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That sounds right.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And I believe you indicated that you didn’t -- even though you received a copy, I believe, on the 27th or 20th of January, you didn’t actually become of the Hendon -- Project Hendon until somewhere February 4th to 6th; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe so, yes, to the best of my recollection.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And I take it that when Hendon crossed your desk in late-January, since intelligence was not particularly your area, you probably felt that others would kind of deal with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I think in my position as a strategic, you know, kind of advisor in this role, I was not reading those reports, per se.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
What I am interested in, though -- of course, intelligence being as important as it is for planning, were there any meetings of senior command to discuss the state of intelligence before the Freedom Convoy hit Ottawa?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe it had been mentioned in some of our meetings in terms of what Deputy Bell was doing with his team, that he was -- they were chasing down as much of the information and intelligence as they could. But beyond -- as a senior command, did we sit down and talk about it? I don’t recall that.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Okay. So in those meetings, then, it would be Deputy Bell that would have been responsible at the time for kind of bringing forward that information?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And no one at the time said anything about the Hendon Reports during those pre-arrival meetings?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t remember.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Were aware during this period of time that as early as January 20th that OPP Intelligence had indicated that there was exit strategy for many of the protesters?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I am now. I was not then.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would you consider that -- as the strategic commander, would you have considered that important to know?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe it would have formed part of how we evaluated our plan, for sure.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And did you know about the OPP’s intelligence on fundraising that was brought forward in the Hendon Reports?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I knew about some fundraising and I don’t know where that was sourced from but I do recall Insp. Lucas keeping me up to date saying, “This money has grown exponentially,” in the day or two before they arrived.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Right. And, of course, that’s important to know because it speaks to the potential support of the convoy; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I don’t know that you can necessarily the conclusion that it means they’re going to stay longer. I don’t know what that money was laid out to do. It might have been to be funding initiatives. So one could, you know, make an assumption out of that but it may not be accurate.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Right. Did you know that the OPP intelligence was reporting that many of the protestors will not leave until their demands were met?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I know that now but I don’t believe I knew that then.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And again, that would have been important for you to know as a strategic commander because it speaks to their intent?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Did anyone at these meetings speak about heavy equipment being brought in?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
This is difficult. I’m not sure when I was aware of that information. I do know at some point in time, you know, there were reports on the convoys, and whether that was shared to us through PLT Team or through reports, I don’t know how I came to know that or when I came to know that.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And, of course, that obviously would be important to know?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I would that you’ve ---
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Now, since then, have you had a chance to go back and look at any of the Hendon Reports?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would agree that those reports provided important intelligence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
They provided a lot of information, some was consistent with what we saw, some was not consistent with what we saw. There were some statements that, you know, said they would do this and they absolutely didn't. So -- yeah, to answer your question, I -- we have had a number of events here since, and I have since moved over from Community Policing to what former Deputy Bell was working on. So I'm very much alive to Hendon reports, and anytime they show up in my inbox I read them right away now.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And of course no intelligence was generally 100 percent, but ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
--- for -- as a planning tool, would you agree that those reports would've been useful to have been known, at least the basics of those reports as part of your planning process?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. I think there was also, though, a lot -- what we found is a lot of misinformation/disinformation, huge volumes of information, and I think Hendon has done a great job of sifting through that as much as possible, but there's still a variety of information that is presented on those, and some has come to fruition in past events, and some has not.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Right. And that's kind of a challenge, right, of ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
--- intelligence gathering is to take the information, put it through the lens, and then come out with a product to assist in the planning process?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And that was the very purpose of Hendon; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Okay. Now, I want to ask about the plan. There was a plan in place to deal with this event before the convoy arrived; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, there was.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And it was a plan that was predicated on a weekend-long event?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And is it fair to say that was based more on previous experience than it was on actual intelligence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know if that's fair to say because I don't know what our Intelligence folks had in the way of information and how of that fed into the plan. I think, you know, traditionally, 25 years of planning here, with fairly similar types of protests, experience was definitely something that our team was likely relying on.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
But do you think that might have been part of the challenge here, is that Ottawa -- still Ottawa Police Service was so used to dealing with certain kinds of protests that perhaps, you know, the template plan was dusted off, a few revisions were made and presented as being something that would be appropriate for this event?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know that any services across the country would have anticipated what we saw arriving at our doorstep. So I -- you know, do we have plans and do we use, you know, some of the same ones and change dates and names and, you know, build upon them? Yes, we do. And the case, I don't know that that's exactly what happened.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
No, but I guess the reason I'm asking is just because, you know, asking whether there may have been complacency, and we're trying to understand what happened here and how to prevent these things. Are you concerned that maybe there was a failure to appreciate what may actually happen here, and there was just too much reliance on what was done in the past?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think there was definitely a failure to appreciate.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
If we can bring up OPP3531, please. Actually, sorry, I think OPS3531. I got one of the letters wrong. All right, so this is the Operational Plan, I believe, that you're aware of, this document; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would you have approved this document as a Strategic Commander?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I would have seen it but not approved it.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Okay. Can we turn to page 6, please. And scroll down where it says Threat Assessment. Do you see that where it says Threat Assessment?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I take it that's an area that would typically provide relevant intelligence to help guide the response?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would you agree that there is no -- I'll put to you that there is no reference, obviously, to the Hendon reports in that assessment. Would you agree with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Not from the portion you're showing me. I don't know if it goes on.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Okay, we can scroll down to the end of that section, please. And I guess the point I'm trying to make through this is that that section on threat assessment does not reference concepts that were in the Hendon report, such as the fact that there was no exit plan, there was nothing about fundraising, nothing about the intentions of the protesters to stay until their goals had been met, nothing about heavy machinery. All that was in the Hendon report. And I guess the point that I would put to you is that was all important information that should have been in the Threat Assessment. Would you agree?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would. I do note here that they say that they, you know: "...investigate existing intelligence pieces and to liaise with its federal and provincial partners for any indicators of possible disruptions to the Convoy." And: "Should this...change...[with] new information...[it] will be updated accordingly and disseminated." So I gather they didn't have any additional information.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Would you agree, then, with the proposition that this plan was not an Intelligence-led plan, it was more of a traffic plan based on experience than one that's truly led by Intelligence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I would agree with that.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I'd like to ask about the Integrated Planning Team that came to Ottawa. You've said some positive things, obviously, about Chief Pardy and others involved in the plan. My take, I believe they arrived on or about February 8th; is that about your recollection?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sound right, yeah.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And I believe your evidence was that you fully supported the concept of an Integrated Planning Team?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
You were aware, of course, that Toronto Police was involved, York, Peel, you had subject matter experts from a number of police services?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would you agree that this was not the B Team; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
I mean, these were highly regarded incident commanders, excellent planners, POU experts, and people that were top in their field; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And they were all coming to Ottawa to help the OPS kind of resolve the situation; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
And I was very grateful for them; yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
But is it fair to say that your enthusiasm or your support wasn't shared entirely by all members of OPS Senior Command?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's fair.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And is it also fair to say that that lack of initial buy-in caused some delay in the ultimate agreement on the plan and the execution?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I think that's fair to say.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And one of the -- it's problematic in a sense that the planning team can -- was brought there to assist OPS; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
The Ottawa Police Service was a police service of jurisdiction, so unless and until OPS agreed with it, there was really nothing that the team could do; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
A few questions about PLT. Again, you said some very favourable things about the Provincial Liaison Team. The -- in Ottawa works differently, I believe, than the Ottawa Police Service than it does in the OPS. Obviously, the OPP is a much larger police service. My understanding is that in the Ottawa Police Service, PLT members are all part time; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right. They were until this point.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
So in other words, I guess so others can understand, like being a PLT member is not their full time job. That as the need may arise then they can go and they can do PLT duties ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
--- if asked?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
They would be freed up for that, yeah.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And so that -- the implication of that is that PLT is only engaged if commanders feel that their involvement would be helpful or necessary?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would say that depends on the Incident Commander. I think the current cadre we have and had at that time were very aware of what PLT was capable of, and engaged with using them.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Yeah, now is actually -- I mean, you were able to know what my next question was, but in that, it very much depends on the Incident Commander as to their own personal view of the effectiveness of that style of policing, or their own knowledge about how PLT works; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Indeed, yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And would you consider that a bit of a, you know, a problem in terms of lack of consistency and approach?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And is it fair to say that in January 2022, there were very few in OPS Senior Command or at higher command levels that really understood the potential value of PLT?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I would agree.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Or that understood the national framework put out by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Definitely.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And I believe in your evidence in-chief you said PLT is an amazing tool. And I expect that that's kind of the attitude towards the use of PLT?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it is.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
But would you agree that in reflecting upon lessons learned here, that PLT was misused by OPS in this dispute?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would agree.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And finally, on the point of jurisdiction. Once the convoy arrived in Ottawa, you would agree to the obvious proposition, but it's worth repeating, that Ottawa Police Service was the police service of jurisdiction; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, we were.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Which meant that at that point it was no longer the OPP's responsibility, jurisdictionally?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, it was ours.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And, in fact, it would have been improper for the OPP to try to step in and kind of take over policing; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Agreed.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
That there's no legal mechanism for the OPP to take over unless certain scenarios are met; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
That the Police Services Act sets out very specific circumstances where the OPP may take over command of a certain incident or area?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
And one of those would be if a formal request would be made from the OPS Chief to the OPP Commissioner; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think that's how it works, yes.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Although no such request was made in this case; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would have been surprised if it was. I don't know though for sure.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Sorry, I didn't hear you.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know if it was made or not.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
No, but did you say it would -- you'd be surprised?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would have been surprised if the request was made.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Why would you have been surprised?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Because I don't think that that's what former Chief Sloly was -- wanted.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Why?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think you'd have to ask him. It was clear to me that he was pushing back on that.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
No, I'm asking you though because you have a -- you've had a lot of dealings with Chief Sloly. So why, in your opinion and in your experience, do you believe Chief Sloly would have refused to consider or would not have entertained the possibility of asking for formal assistance in that way?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't believe he wanted to give up control. I think he felt that this -- he was the Chief in the police of jurisdiction, and he wanted that to be maintained.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
When it came to providing assistance, would you agree that the OPP did everything it was asked to do by the Ottawa Police Service?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, they did.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Thank you very much. I appreciate your evidence.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is former Chief Sloly's Counsel, and it looks like it'll be like yesterday, you'll be split in two, if that's agreeable. You'll do 10 minutes before lunch and then -- and finish after lunch.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. REBECCA JONES
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good afternoon.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, you were ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just introduce yourself, please ---
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I apologize.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the record.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes, Rebecca Jones for former Chief Sloly. Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, you were the MIC for the Freedom Convoy; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And as MIC, you had overall responsibility for the OPS's planning and response to the protests?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And your testimony is that you weren't reading the Hendon reports, though you knew that they existed; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
As of the 28th of January when I think I was forwarded one.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Okay. And your role, though you were the MIC with the overall responsibility, you were working with Deputy Chief Bell, who had overall responsibility for intelligence; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I take it you were relying on the Intelligence team to provide you with the information you needed from the Intelligence report to input into your plans?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think my team was, yes. I wasn't writing the plans, but, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You, yourself, weren't writing the plans?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you weren't writing the plans directly and you weren't reading the intelligence reports directly. You were at a higher strategic level?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And similarly, there would be no expectation that the Chief of Police would be pouring through the Hendon reports and trying to reconcile the different pieces of intelligence; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I don't think that would be realistic.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And the Chief of Police would be at an even higher level, relying on his team for operations and intelligence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And one of the things that you noted was that you did not believe that the initial plan, the January 29th plan was Intelligence led. And I just want to suggest to you that Chief Sloly's expectation for his command had been from when he entered as Chief, that all operational plans were to be Intelligence led?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now for this initial January 29th plan, I take it that Chief Sloly's involvement in the process is as you would have expected?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So he did not direct the planning unduly?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Not at this point, no.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Didn't interfere?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And, in fact, Chief Sloly did not even see the plan or a draft of the plan until the morning of January 28th when it was provided to him for the first time; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's possible, yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And he said looks fine to him and the team proceeded with that plan.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And he would have been looking in -- when looking at that plan, he would have been considering the intelligence and operational details that had been provided to him by his senior command team?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's fair, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now if we pivot forward a few days to Sunday night, January 30th, at that point, your evidence is that it became clear to the OPS that the people were not going to leave.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that there needed to be a pivot in the plan.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. A pivot in our response anyway, but, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Pivot in your response. Okay. Fair enough. And you as the MIC were responsible in that pivot; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that required evolution, significant evolution of the January 29th plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Because the January 29th plan had been based on, you know, a big, boisterous, traffic impeding protest, but not an occupation.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And as of January 30th, I take it that you agreed with the assessment that the OPS was now facing an occupation?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now you were taken to notes from February 3rd and we can perhaps put them up. OPS14484, page 3, please. And for everyone's benefit, these are February 3rd notes of Chief Sloly. And he's referring to a meeting with you and Deputy Chief Bell; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And he refers in the first line to, "I [have] advised that [we've] had 2 days since the POU meeting on Tuesday..." So that was a meeting that took place on February 1st; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, that's right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Chief Sloly had made very clear in that meeting exactly what you said. There needed to be a pivot and the plan had to be significantly evolved to deal with the situation.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And at the point of this meeting now, two days later and four days after the determination that this was, in fact, an occupation that required a new plan, he had not seen a new -- and I shouldn't say a new plan. I'll go back to what we have spoken about, an evolution of the plan. He had not seen an evolved version of this plan; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
What he was looking for here was specifically a Public Order Unit plan, not the wider plan.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And that would be part of the evolved plan; right? There would be ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- a Public Order component of the plan, to try to figure out how we're going to resolve the situation with the people that were occupying the city.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There would be Public Order plan. There would be a PLT plan. There would be a Traffic plan. There would be Investigations plan. All of those things form the plan, but he was fixated solely on this one.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Well, the word "fixated" is - --
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sorry.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- a bit loaded. So he was interested in a Public Order Unit plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
In fact, he met with them in person.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And met with them in person. But to be fair to your former Chief, he also expected that there would be a Traffic plan, and a PLT plan, and all of those other plans were evolving at the same time.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, he just didn't meet with any of those other groups. I think he might have met with the PLT when there was some discord that he'd heard about, that they were unhappy, but this was the only group that he met with.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I take it you’re not being critical of him for not meeting with the other groups?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, not at all.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, because it’s a bit hard to be Chief Sloly sometimes, I think, in terms of criticized for being too involved versus criticized for not being involved enough, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
For sure, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I can understand that.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So here on this day, this -- you were taken to this document but you weren’t taken to the very end of the document, if you can scroll down a little bit more -- keep going. Sorry, go up a little bit, end of this paragraph. The paragraph at the top of the page: "I directed once again Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson to ensure that Sgt. Stoll…" And he was -- S/Sgt. Stoll, I apologize -- and he was involved in the POU component of the plan; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, he was, yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, that he: "…got the resources he needed to make the assessments/final recommendation."
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right? Okay. So S/Sgt. Stoll, the Chief wanted to make sure he had the resources he needed to put the -- make the inputs into this plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And now if we can go, please, to document OPS7355. And we looked at these notes earlier today -- February 5th, these are notes of Chief Sloly about -- well, actually, if you scroll up a little bit -- okay, so it’s actually an email from Former Chief Sloly to you, copied to many people on the team and this is the document, if you scroll down, where Chief Sloly sets out some general priorities for planning purposes; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
He’s directing the plan but yes, that’s what he set out here are his priorities for that.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you felt that this was directing the plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And your suggestion is that that was somehow too directive?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So I’m going to return to that but when we look at these priorities, I’m going to suggest to you they’re pretty high level -- surge, contain, and enforce; demonstration, fully implement plan; shut down, secure enablers for unlawful and unsafe protests.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
“Fuel, fun,” those are much more in the weeds.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay, but this isn’t -- you’re not suggesting this is some sort of tactical-level plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There are portions of it that certainly look tactical to me ---
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So, you’ve seen ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- that he’s wanting us to interdict in the fuel, specifically, and that was one of his things that he returned to on a number of occasions.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt. The fuel, in particular, was an issue of a lot of public attention in Ottawa, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it was. Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So -- and I’m almost out of time for lunch so I’ll just ask you to agree with me about this. If you step back and try to put yourself in Chief Sloly’s shoes, we are now on February 5th; we are now seven days after a determination had been made that the city was facing an occupation and that the plan needed to be evolved and he hadn’t seen an evolved plan; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So when we talk about how involved you would expect a chief to be or how involved you’re -- how much autonomy you’re supposed to be giving your team, this was an exception circumstance; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it was.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
It was an exceptional circumstance and he was trying to get his team to move forward with the evolved plan; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
But without the resources to do so. That was the impediment to us at that point in time. For those seven days, that’s exactly what we were struggling with.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I could not agree with you more and we can return to that after the lunch break.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’ll take an hour for lunch and come back and continue this. Thank you.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:01 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:00 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is reconvened. La Commission as reprend.
ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF PATRICIA FERGUSON, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMNIATION BY REBECCA JONES, (cont’d)
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I want to turn now -- we will get to resources by the end of my cross-examination but I’m going to turn first to the PLT, which is something we’ve heard a lot about this morning. The PLT is on of many important groups that -- within the law enforcement efforts that was working to resolve the issue of the convoy; right? And there were very important groups, such as Intelligence, people that were doing enforcement at POU, all also had a role, correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Agreed.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And some people may favour a bigger role for the PLT and some people may favour a bigger role for enforcement, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Depending on the circumstance.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And reasonable people could disagree about how much emphasis to put which law enforcement tool you have?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it’s always a balance.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And is it fair to say that you and your partners with the OPP favoured the PLT-type approach here.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think that’s fair.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And others, you felt, such as Chief Sloly and Supt. Patterson, you felt they favoured a more enforcement based approach?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That was the impression I had, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. But I just want to return to one thing, which is that February 1st POU meeting. At that meeting, were you aware that Chief Sloly ensured that the PLT was there?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So making sure that the PLT was integrated with the POU when talking about planning, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that’s a good idea.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It is, oh, yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But this sort of tension existed between how much enforcement to do versus how much negotiation through the PLT to do?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And just as a slight aside to that, is it fair to say that the public frustration was focused, in large part, what the public perceived to be a lack of enforcement?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I think that’s fair.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And I’m not asking you to weigh in on whether or not you agree.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
M’hm.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
There was a lot of complex considerations that were going into all police action at the time, right, but you’ll agree with me that public confidence in police is itself a crucial public safety issue?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I think that’s fair.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. This tension between the more PLT-type approach or an approach that also incorporated enforcement really came to a head on February 10th, right, and you’ve talked about that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that is the meeting where you and Supt. Patterson had a dispute?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in that dispute, Supt. Patterson suggested that you favoured -- and I’m not using the right words but the overall gist of it was that you were favouring a PLT-driven strategy, in part, because your husband was leading the PLT, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t think that’s what his -- and maybe I’ll ask you to rephrase -- or to repeat it ---
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Sure.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- if that’s what I felt or if that’s what he was thinking.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And if I’m characterizing it incorrectly, please feel free to clarify. My understanding was that Supt. Patterson made a suggestion that you were somehow favouring a more PLT-driven approach in some way related to the fact that your husband was a team lead for the PLT.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t know that that’s what he was insinuating but I can tell you that that was not the -- that was not why I was favouring PLT. I favoured PLT because I had seen it in action before, and my husband was actually not normally with PLT, but was a crisis negotiator, so was placed in the position.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I'm not -- I just want to be very fair, I'm in no way suggesting that that’s what was happening.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But just at that, there was a dispute about your husband's role in PLT and whether that had any influence on your favouring of a PLT strategy.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I am -- I don't know that that’s what he was trying to say, Superintendent Patterson. I don’t want to put words into his mouth. I didn’t take it to be that angle that you're suggesting, so I don’t want to agree to that, because I don't know that that’s what he was ---
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So please feel free to clarify what you think he was suggesting about your favouring of a PLT strategy and its relationship to your spouse.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think he was insinuating that I had communicated with my spouse about this particular operation and that that had undermined his ability to proceed with the operation.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Ah, I got it. Okay. Fair enough. And you felt that this was an inappropriate suggestion?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And it was very upsetting to you, I imagine?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, it was.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And you spoke to Chief Sloly, who supported you, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Chief Sloly understood why you were upset?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Chief Sloly removed Superintendent Patterson from his position within the incident command?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
After some discussion and my request, yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes. And that’s appropriate, right, to ask you what you want to do, right, and then he supported you?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, he did.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And this is just a very small point, but my friend spent some time looking at the mission statement of the February 9th plan. Do you remember that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And I just want to be clear for everyone. The upshot of that was that you wanted the role of the PLT or negotiation to be stated explicitly in the mission statement, and Chief Sloly said it's implicit in the mission statement?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I wanted the word "negotiation", not necessarily mentioned in the PLT, but that we were doing this through negotiated methods.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And Chief Sloly said, "Yeah, I think that’s implicit. I don’t think it needs to go in the mission statement"?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
But he said no first, sorry. Sorry for my interruption. He said no first, and then he said it's implied.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And then he said it's implied?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. One other point before we turn away from the PLT, which is, you referred to the fact that you did not feel that senior command necessarily had great facility with the National Framework for Police Preparedness, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And it's fair to say that you as well became familiar with that National Framework during the Freedom Convoy?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I had seen it before when I spoke with the group that asked to have more members trained post-the recent demonstration at Nicholas and Laurier, and they came back and provided me feedback, and they shared the framework with me at that point in time. I looked at it, you know, supported what they were trying to do, and then put it on the corner of my desk so I was refreshed of its existence, certainly, during the convoy.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And I'm going to suggest that the language that you've used is, you became familiar with the National Framework during the convoy?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. I'm going to turn now to the integrated planning group. You gave evidence that the integrated planning group support arrived on February 8th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And your evidence was that Chief Sloly was -- I think you used the word "suspicious" of the group and he was worried about politics, right? That’s your evidence?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. And were you aware on February 8th of the motion that had been passed by City council the day before on February 7th? Were you following the motions at City council at this time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know which motion you're referring to, specifically, so ---
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Fair enough. On February 7th, a motion was brought and passed by City council to have the City ask the federal government to assume responsibility for public safety in the Parliamentary precinct.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I'm aware of that one.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. So you were aware at that point that something quite political was happening, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Oh, there was lots of politics.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Okay. And of course, that never happened because the motion was entirely without jurisdiction, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
But when, again, to be fair to Chief Sloly, when this integrated planning group arrives and you perceive him to be somehow resistant or suspicious or whatever words you're using, this is within 24 hours of a motion to have the RCMP take over policing in the Parliamentary precinct, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so it's fair to say that Chief Sloly was dealing with a lot, including at the political level at this time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No doubt.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I'm going to ask you now about this issue between the February 9th and the February 13th versions of the plan. And I'm going to ask if we could put up email at OPP1547, please, which is an email we looked at this morning. If we scroll down to the bottom, please, okay. So you were asked about this email and this is an email where Chief Sloly asks you to send him the latest version of the operations plan that I approved on February 9th, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And when you were giving your evidence this morning, when first asked about this email and this operations plan, you explained that this operations plan that had been signed off on on the 9th had then been taken by the integrated planning team and they were refining it and adding to it and making changes to it, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I think they were building it out.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
They were building it out, okay. And I think your evidence just got a bit confused about the suggestion that there was confusion that there were two different plans, right? There weren’t two different plans. There was the February 9th plan and it evolved into the February 13th plan; is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
They're two very different plans in their final states, to say what was happening at this stage in the game would be unfair. I think Superintendent Bernier could probably tell you that piece in greater detail.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Fair. But the Commissioner shouldn't be left with the impression that there were two independent plans floating around and no one knew how to reconcile them, right? That would be fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, I think, further up, we sent him the plan that he's talking about, and then the conversation carries on about this integrated plan that is being developed waiting for signatories in that piece. So it would appear to me that there are two plans at this stage, but one may be the predecessor of the second.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And the difficulty in this email that I'm going to put to you is that you had not been following the -- I shouldn't say you weren’t following -- I'm sure you were following -- but you had not seen the February 13th version, or at this point, yes, the February 13th version yet, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I had not.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So what you sent Chief Sloly back was the one that you had?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It was the one that he'd signed off on on the 9th.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that you had?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right, because you didn’t have the February 13th?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I did not.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So -- and I'm going to just take you now if I could to OPS10470, and if you scroll down, please, and this is -- sorry, if you go up just a little bit, this is an email from Superintendent Leu, I believe it is, at the RCMP?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s correct.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And Superintendent Leu refers to the fact that he is working on the plan, and in the second sentence: "Obviously, this plan originated with your plan, which we examined, bolstered, and strengthened." Right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And that was consistent with your understanding of what was happening?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
I'm going to turn now to the relationship between the Police Service and the Board and Council You attended several Board and Council meetings with Chief Sloly, both before and during the convoy, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I did.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And when questions came up about operations, often Chief Sloly would defer to you, and you would provide an operational update?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And is it fair to say that you and Chief Sloly did that work, you updated the Board together, right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you were on the same page about what sort of information the Board should have as to the status of operations. I only have another minute, so I’m going to be fast. I’m going to ask you now about resources. Ultimately, it took the additional 1,800 officers that the OPS determined it needed to clear out the occupation; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think it actually took more than that, but yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. It took more than that. And this was done without any serious injury or loss of life?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And in -- partly in doing this, the police used the powers given to the police by the Emergencies Act?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I think it assisted. I would say greased the wheels of the plan that we had in place.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Yes, okay. Fair. So it assisted you in executing the plan.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Because you used powers such as threats of seizure of vehicles, right, threats of seizures of bank accounts?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
It helped you get tow trucks.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
It prevented -- allowed you to prevent assembly in the red zone?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So that things, I think we can say fairly, resolved more quickly and more safely because of those additional powers.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah. And Superintendent Bernier may have more details on this. I understand that we did -- we had secured some tow trucks, but I would say, you know, in terms of the plan that we had in place, it allowed us to move with further confidence than we would have had, say, without it. We may have seen more challenges later on in court, but we were going ahead with that plan anyway.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Perfect. And before the over 1,800 additional resources arrived, you’ll agree with me that the OPS did not have sufficient resources to end the occupation.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I absolutely agree with you.
Rebecca Jones, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up are the convoy organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Acting Deputy Chief. And as I was saying, first thank you for your service and thank you for your forthright testimony already here that you’ve given today. I just need to pull one very small strand before I begin. I’m scrolling to it in my own disclosure.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could first introduce yourself and speak up a bit, please.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Sorry, sir. Brendan Miller. I am counsel to Freedom Corps, which is the incorporated entity that represents the protectors that were in your city in January and February of 2022. So beginning first with the area that I want to chat with you about is the Hendon reports. You said in your evidence in-chief that Acting Chief Bell’s unit at the time, which I believe was Intelligence ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s right.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- they were the ones that would receive the Hendon reports; correct? Okay. And it’s fair to say that it would have been now Acting Chief Bell’s responsibility to pass those reports on to the Office of the Chief and Chief Sloly. That’s who would pass them on to him.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think what he would be passing on is the products of what that unit worked on to share up. I don’t think it was his job to pass it up to the Chief, but the information would be assessed, analyzed and then passed up the chain.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, we heard yesterday that Chief Sloly had to get the Hendon reports from the OPP directly in January of 2022 and Superintendent Morris found that odd because the OPP had been providing those reports to OPS since Project Hendon started in early 2021. To your knowledge, were the Hendon reports not provided by now Acting Chief Bell or his department to Chief Sloly?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t know.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You don’t know.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I couldn’t comment on that. My understanding is that the Chief was receiving them as part of an All Chiefs. Sometimes that’s how the initial -- there’s two separate levels, so he might have been receiving it in that. That’s generally one of the ways that the -- that information is disseminated across the province, but whether Chief Bell was getting them and when he got them, I don’t know. I couldn’t speak to that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so it’s fair to say that -- we’ll have to just ask Chief Bell or Acting Chief Bell that. It’s fair to say, then, that these Hendon reports, they went to someone likely in Chief Bell’s unit but not necessarily Chief Bell?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, that’s fair.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And then that individual, whomever received them, or group would then put together their own product and then provide it to either Chief Bell and then Chief Bell may or may not provide it to Chief Sloly; fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Fair.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to get that clarified because it’s an important point. I want to talk to you a little bit about the media reports and some of the misinformation that was spoken about yesterday by Superintendent Morris. The media, through reporting at times and statements of elected officials reported that the residents of Ottawa were experiencing unprecedented violence. Do you remember reading that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t remember reading that, no.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Can you agree with me that there was not an increase in violent crime or events of violent crime in the City of Ottawa during the protests before the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t think I can agree with you on that. I do believe we saw an increase in violence. I don’t have the exact measures or the stats, but I do know that we did see some increase in violence and acts of violence as a result of the protests in town.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And so I understand that prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, between January 27th and February 14th, there was a total of only 13 charges laid as against the protestors. Can you agree with me on that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Can you repeat the dates please? Sorry.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Between January 27th and February 14th, the invocation.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So that charges were laid during that time? Charges may have been latent in terms of once the information was all gathered, then charges were laid after, and my understanding is there were upwards of 400 charges that were laid in relation to the convoy.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And those charges, I understand, the great majority of them arose after February 14th with respect to the enforcement. It wasn’t for things that happened during the time period prior to the invocation. Is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I think they were acts that took place during that time period when the convoy was in town but that the information was only able to be solidified into a state where we were able to lay charges.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So would Acting Chief Bell be able to provide us an accurate number for this Commission with respect to that question?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I’m sure he could if he knows the question now.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, hopefully he’s able to do that because I believe that’s an important point. Now, I take it that during the protests, of course, that the Ottawa Police Service, though they weren’t, at times, enforcing by-laws or weren’t enforcing provincial infractions, they were enforcing the Criminal Code in full force and effect; right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, I wouldn’t say that. I think we were struggling to be able to do that.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’re struggling, but if a police officer saw an individual assaulting another or there was a report of an individual to a police officer that they had been assaulted, that was investigated?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Those individuals after that investigation, if it was appropriate, charges were laid against them.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, in many cases.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Now, did Chief Sloly at any time advise you that he had been advised by RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki on January 31st, 2022 to not have the City of Ottawa get an injunction because it's an official movement to another stage, this will involve the whole country and anything official will spark a national response? Did he tell you about that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I was part of the conversation with Commissioner Lucki and Commissioner Carrique, I believe, at the time. I don’t remember those facts specifically, but I do remember Commissioner Lucki saying that it was -- it was a bit of a double-edged sword, getting an injunction, because, you know, then you would need to be enforcing and if you don’t have the resources right now to enforce all the Criminal Codes and other offences that were being broken here, then to get an injunction sort of sets the expectation for the community that we were then going to be able to actually come down and enforce it, and we didn’t have the resources there. So there was conversation for sure about it, but I don’t know what her specifics -- what you’re saying, whether that was attributed to her or not.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to go through again. You had mentioned in your evidence the Chief under examination from my friends, counsel for Mr. Sloly, that there were certain provisions with the Emergencies Act Order, the Order in Council that assisted removing the protestors. I want to deal with each. So first is the threat or the freezing of bank accounts, all right. So I'd like you to turn your mind to that. How many individuals whose bank accounts were frozen, to your knowledge, immediately exited the downtown of Ottawa?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Do you have any information that these individuals who had their bank accounts frozen couldn't leave because they couldn't pay to get out of Ottawa?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I had heard anecdotally through the media some of those stories, but I am not aware of any specifics.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So with respect to that, can you agree with me that it was only about 58 or 59 individuals who had their bank accounts frozen?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I can't actually agree because I don't know those figures. I'm sorry.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And dealing with some of the other enforcement provisions, of course you can agree that the Emergencies Act Order did not order an increase in officers for you to remove the protesters?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, what it did do was, there was some legislative things that it was able to -- we were able to get RCMP members here without swearing them all in, which was a bit of an administrative hurdle for us. We were, you know, struggling with that throughout the convoy. With the Emergencies Act, they were able to come and just be police officers here without that step.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And so that is one of the things that sped it up, but can you agree with me that if there was an order, once you got resources in place, if there was an injunction in place that had the terms of removal inside of it, that these police officers could have done the same thing; couldn't they?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, they could have. I think I said that of most officers across Canada here.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. So I just want to touch on, and we've talked a little bit about misinformation, and, you know, the evidence from Superintendent Morris yesterday was very interesting. He talked about misinformation in detail and misinformation in the media and it was very enlightening. And, of course, there's still some misinformation going around and, you know, even we have misinformation. We don't know what's true and what's not. So I'm going to ask you some questions here. I don't know what the answer to this is going to be, but it may or not be misinformation. Did you tell any of your friends and colleagues within OPS that at some time prior to you giving testimony here today that you were approached by someone who wanted you to give certain evidence that was not true?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. Now I take it that you prepared in advance for giving your evidence in this proceeding in the sense as a police officer would before they testify in a trial or any proceeding?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And unlike regular court proceedings, this proceeding is unique, and there's no exclusion of witnesses' orders and, in fact, the proceeding plays out online and live on TV. I take it you're aware of that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, I am.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you have the opportunity and privilege to listen to the evidence of Superintendent Morris before testifying today?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
His was the one I missed because I was intensely prepping for today so.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. Well, I'm not going to ask you about his evidence then and ask you to confirm it if you haven't heard it. But can you agree with me that Superintendent Morris is the most senior Intelligence officer within the provincial government in the entire province of Ontario?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't actually know that. I believe that, but I don't know that that's a hundred percent.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And you know he works hand in hand with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Communications Security Establishment and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You're aware of that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And if anyone in the province within the provincial and, you know, even municipal apparatus knows anything about threats to the security of Canada, it would be him; wouldn't it?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I think that's speculative, but he's a very learned colleague in this regard for sure.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Those are my questions. Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to now call on the City of Ottawa.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNE TARDIF
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Good afternoon.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
My name's Anne Tardif. I'm one of the lawyers for the City of Ottawa. You were asked this morning, Acting Deputy Chief, why the Ottawa Police Service did not proactively lock down Wellington and the downtown core before the first trucks arrived. You recall being asked that question?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
In fact, I think you were asked it several times in fairness to you. Are you familiar with the farmer's protest that I believe occurred in or around 2006?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
For referral, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. And you're aware that certain large farm vehicles like tractors came up and protested on Wellington in front of Parliament Hill?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I am aware of that, yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And my understanding is they came, and they left without incident; is that in accordance with your understanding as well?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it is.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I expect that we will hear evidence that Chief Ramer -- and I -- am I pronouncing that right? I am? Chief Ramer of the Toronto Police Service, that he's indicated that using Ottawa, they locked down the City of Toronto, and that had Ottawa not happened, Toronto Police Service tactics would not have been accepted. And this was in relation to TPS's decision to lock down the area around Queen's Park after the convo had arrived in Ottawa. Are you aware that Chief Ramer has said that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I am, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And in fairness to you, since - - fairness to you and the Service I should say, since the events of the Freedom Convoy, my understanding is that the police working collaboratively with the City of Ottawa have, in fact, locked down the area of Wellington, exercise their authorities to close streets to prevent the event from recurring; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That is correct, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I'm thinking, for example, of Rolling Thunder.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Okay.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I think there was also a veteran's event around Canada Day. You're familiar with those?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I am, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you. Now I take it you're also aware that during the Freedom Convoy community members in Ottawa were being harassed by protesters in areas such as Kent Street, for example?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, those were reports we received.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. And for those who aren't quite familiar with the geography of Ottawa, fair to say that Kent Street is on the periphery of what later became known as the red zone?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I also understand that while the City and OPS were generally successful in maintaining emergency lanes open and clear, there were some issues in that respect; is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There were. I think probably after the first weekend we struggled with that, keeping them open.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
My understanding is that Kent Street never had an emergency lane open?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, it didn't.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that Wellington Street, the intended emergency lane was in fact lost during that first weekend?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it was.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Now obviously, that represents a public safety concern. You'd agree with that, Acting Deputy Chief?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Absolutely, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
So I just want to get the overall timeline. Perhaps you can help me here. I think I've got it now. The -- let's start with the first weekend. So the first truck rolled in on January 28, which was a Friday.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that first weekend, January 28th to Sunday, January 30th, OPS's plan, the Police Service's plan focussed primarily on traffic management; is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think that is fair, yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And you've described how on Monday, January 31st, when a number of the trucks did not in fact leave, the Service pivoted and considered it now, the event that is, to be a critical incident?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, and an occupation.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
An occupation. In other words, not merely a traffic event.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And you described this morning how by February 4th, that's the Friday of that first week, OPS still did not have a new or evolved plan; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That is correct.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I think I heard you say this morning that during that first week, there were times, in fact, when the Service was floundering. That's the word you use. Is that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it is.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And by February 6th, that's the date that Chief Sloly, former Chief Sloly, pardon me, asked for 1800 additional resources or officers; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I know he made the ask. I'm not sure of the date, so if you're saying the 6th ---
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Does that sound about right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It does, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
I think that's the evidence the Commission has heard today.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I think I heard you say earlier that, in fact, you believe more resources than that were effectively needed to end this convoy occupation; is that correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe in the end it was somewhere near 2200.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
That same day, February 6th, the events that you described at Coventry took place?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
POU, that's the Public Order Unit, they conducted some enforcement there ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
--- that resulted in arrests?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And they did so without, as I understand it, advising the Police Liaison Team?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Came as a surprise to Police Liaison Team members?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that team I think you said felt betrayed?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And the result, of course, was a breakdown in the trust between the Police Liaison Team and the protesters, to a certain extent at least?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes ---
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Yeah.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
--- I think there was that impact.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
You said you do think there was there an impact.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I do think that was -- yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And again, for those of who are still learning about police Operations and don't have the experience you do, as I understand it, the Police Liaison Team is the group that is primarily responsible for communicating and negotiating with protesters.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, they are.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
So the breakdown in trust would be a significant event?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would categorise it as that, yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Moving ahead to February 8th, we're now 11 days into the convoy?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
We still don't have the almost 1,800 resources that former Chief Sloly has requested?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that turned out to be necessary; you'll with that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
We still don't have, if I've understood you correctly, a final operational plan?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
At least not one that's been approved?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Were working on it.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Or, sorry, or which?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Were working on it.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
You were working on it. Fair enough. And I think you'd agree with me that by this time the force is probably exhausted.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Mentally and physically.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And you'll agree with me that Ottawa residents, particularly those living on the periphery of the red zone, those facing harassment, noise, pollution, so on, so forth, they're also frustrated.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And they're also exhausted.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And it's not an understatement in the least to say that things were dire by that point.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't think that's an understatement.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
You're aware that on February 8th that the Ottawa Police Service reached out to the City Manager, whom everyone in this town calls Steve K?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
To ask him to meet with protesters?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And they felt, your Service felt, it would be a win for PLT to gain trust with the truckers.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I think we were looking for a win in terms of movement of the trucks. I don't know if we were positioning it as a win for PLT per se.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Oh, sorry. I guess what I meant was it's a win in terms of re-establishing trust with the truckers, between authorities and the truckers, so that you can get to a negotiated solution.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's fair.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. I think you said earlier that, you know, that was the goal. You in fact had wanted to see that in the Mission Statement, that a peaceful negotiation was the best outcome overall.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Steve K agreed to work with police and PLT and to meet with the protest leaders?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
(Inaudible response)
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And then I understood that you were off on February 11th and 12th; did I get that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's right.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
So I won't ask you about the events of those days, and we'll jump ahead to February 13th. I understand that Steve K briefed police about the negotiations on February 13; is that right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, he did.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And he told you that we needed the police at the table to confirm where the protesters should park, what locations.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, for logistics.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Sorry, which?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
For the - --
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
For logistics, yeah. That's probably a better word. And so he wanted the police because you were -- the police is going to need to execute this on the ground; fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, fair.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And he wanted a senior OPS member involved at that stage?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And as I understand it, former Chief Sloly assigned Superintendent Drummond to that task.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's correct.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that meeting occurred on the evening of February 13th.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I believe so.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
With Superintendent Drummond at the table.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I know we'll be hearing from him next week, so I'll pick it up with him there. Thank you very much, Acting Deputy Chief.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Ottawa Coalition.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Deputy Chief Ferguson.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My name's Paul Champ. I'm the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, and want to thank you very much for coming today to answer some of our questions. I want to start, Deputy Chief Ferguson, asking you about the decision to allow the heavy trucks to come downtown right at the outset. Now, we've heard previous evidence from the City Manager, Mr. Kanellakos and the Mayor and Chair Deans that the police were telling them that it was the opinion of the Ottawa Police Service that you could not prevent the heavy trucks from going downtown because of the Charter rights of those truckers. Was that your understanding of what the Ottawa Police were telling the City of Ottawa officials?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was that a legal opinion that the Ottawa Police obtained?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don't remember if we obtained a legal opinion on that. I believe this was based on decades of past, you know, experience in managing events, and that we have allowed it in the past, and that we were going to again in this case.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Notwithstanding the dramatically larger scale and the larger number of like heavy trucks?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, I think we have had trucks, and as previously alluded to, tractors in that area of the downtown. It's obviously the sought after spot when people come to protest.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And this idea of vehicle protests or vehicle associated protests, you've told us the Ottawa Police Service had some experience with that before. Has the Ottawa Police sought input or guidance or expertise from other police services about how they manage large vehicle protests?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Not to my knowledge. I know that it's possible. I know there is a whole network of officers who, you know, go to conferences on public order things, and I have been to one of those. So there may be a network and that might have happened already.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There might be police services reaching out to OPS now after this incident ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- I'm sure. Yeah. Deputy Chief, on January 26th, we know that you gave an interview to Global News; is that right? Do you recall that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That's possible, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you made a comment to the media at that time, or Global News, that you expected the convoy protests could go on for a prolonged period. Do you recall making a comment like that?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I do.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by that, you -- I understand you are later suggesting that by prolonged period you just meant like a long weekend.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But isn't it true, Deputy Chief, that by that time there were in fact all kinds of, I would suggest, of glaring indicators that these protesters were coming here for a very prolonged period. Isn't that fair?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
So there were indicators. Was I aware of them at that time on the 26th when I made that statement? I don't believe I was, but prolonged in my experience, being, you know, a police officer in the Capital for 27 years, prolonged was a weekend for a protest.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But this one was different, Deputy Chief. You had a very, very large number of trucks that were coming from a long distance, right, from Western Canada; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, and we'd had a similar one I believe in 2019.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, some of the same folks involved.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes. Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we might hear about that later in these hearings. But nowhere near the numbers; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Well, the numbers were something that was fluctuating as they travelled across the country. And even right up until the, you know, the three days prior to them arriving in Ottawa, my understanding is the Hendon reports had three different numbers, somewhere in the high four hundreds, then five-and-a-half, and then ultimately 1,300 I think was the last number that we had prior to them arriving here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This one was also different, I would suggest, Deputy Chief, because it was known and very publicly known that they had in fact raised an enormous amount of money to support this journey, and perhaps more, given the amount of money raised. That made it different, did it not?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
It did. Without knowing what that money was going to be used for, whether it was going to support truckers who could no longer work because they couldn't cross the border or whether -- you know, we could speculate as to what that was for, we didn't automatically attribute it to being to support the people who arrived in Ottawa.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you knew from the GoFundMe page it said for raising money for fuel and lodging and food for the protesters in Ottawa. You were aware of that.,
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Sorry, I didn't know that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That might have been the Intelligence folks might not have shared that. And also that the protesters had no exit strategy. You weren't -- but you weren't aware of that in the beginning.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
No, not at the beginning and, you know, to be fair, I think there were comments saying that they were planning leaving after the weekend and then other ones had said the fourth I think was given as a date, and then there was also information that there was no exit strategy for some of them who were planning to stay.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you would agree with me, Deputy Chief, there were some indicators that they were prepared to come here for a number of weeks perhaps?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I would agree, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And at the time of the first weekend, at least at that time, unfortunately the Ottawa Police Service did not have a contingency plan about how to manage that for several weeks if we had a few hundred trucks parked in Downtown Ottawa.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, we did not.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We were crossing our fingers and hoping for the best at that point. And I don't mean -- I know there's a lot of armchair quarterbacks at this stage, Deputy Chief, but it was a bit of a traumatic event for a lot of folks downtown. Now, at one point the deputy, or pardon me, Chief Sloly said this is no longer a protest, it's an occupation, and you've told us today that the protesters had begun to entrench themselves, and you'd mentioned they had set up tents. But did they also were starting creating wooden structures; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A number of them at different locations?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There were kitchens that were set up ---
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- outdoor kitchens? We know they had different fires at different locations to keep them warm in multiple locations.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I heard that, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They had supply chains of fuel and food from the staging area, Coventry, to bring food and fuel regularly downtown; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s my understanding.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the Ottawa Police was monitoring, I gather, those supply chains?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’re also aware that the convoy protestors had very strong logistics and experienced people managing those logistics? You’re aware that they had retired military and police managing those logistics?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, over time, it became quite clear to Ottawa Police Service there was a serious problem, that they could well be here for a very long time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on the impact downtown, there was, is it fair to say, Deputy Chief, a fair amount of lawlessness in Downtown Ottawa at that time, aside from just the bylaws, the parking, the idling, open fires everywhere, at almost every intersection, and so forth; correct.
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fireworks were shooting off, binging off buildings, and so forth?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I’ve heard that, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Large numbers of propane tanks and jerrycans were around downtown?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
People were ignoring public health regulations on masks?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard some questions around other more serious crimes, about assaults. There were reports of assaults during the course of the protest?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
There were.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, those would have been, I gather, Deputy Chief, difficult crimes to investigate because they weren’t in situations where the victim and the perpetrator don’t know each other and it’s at a random place in a street; I gather that’s very challenging for police to investigate?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, sometimes to identify the subject or the accused and the subject and the event, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in many cases isn’t it fair to say, Deputy Chief, that for Ottawa citizens or residents calling saying they were assaulted and making those reports, the police, unfortunately, couldn’t do much more than just take down the information; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
That’s fair.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s really what happened with the vast majority of those cases?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t if it’s the vast majority but I would suspect there’s a large number, that that is in fact the case.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there was also a large number of people reporting threats, being threated by the protestors; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in many cases when there wasn’t actually an assault, the police weren’t even necessarily taking police reports on those because there were so many; is that right?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
I don’t know that we weren’t taking them -- not everybody was calling was and we were -- by the second weekend, we were imploring people in the press conference that was done to please call us, “We would like to know about this.” I know we had an influx of calls around the protest time but not all of them were reporting. Some of them were threatening our staff. Some of them were, you know, espousing their views on the convoy in the positive or negative. So our lines were pretty jammed and it might have been difficult for some people to actually makes those reports.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Yeah, this protest was kind of affecting Ottawa on many levels. We were -- our public officials were receiving serious threats as well, correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s -- those are things that Ottawa Police resources had to deal with?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, as much as we could.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
As much as we could. We also -- obviously, we had the deluge of fake 911 calls and bomb threats to our hospitals; those things happened?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Making it difficult on Ottawa’s Police Resources?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Deputy Chief, as well, the police officers, you’ve already told us how exhausted they were working around the clock. Some of them were also reporting they having concerns with the sound and the diesel fumes; correct?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, we actually engaged our police association and got some tools that were measuring the noise that our officers were being exposed to along with air-quality things. Some of the officers were wearing them on their uniforms so that we could assess just what sort of impact it was having on their health.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because many of them were complaining as it went along about how loud it was?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, just the final area, Deputy Chief, about the Ottawa Police and what was happening with the Ottawa Police at that time. Now, this significant event, it occurred a very difficult for the Ottawa Police Service as an organization; is that fair to say?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Very fair.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’ve indicated that there was a lot of retirements and resignations at the senior levels at that time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We had a Deputy Chief who had been suspended for a prolonged period of time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The Deputy Chief position that you were occupying, that was Deputy Chief Jaswal spot?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Yes, it was.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And for the previous two and half years, they were rotating people through that spot, a number of different officers, Inspectors McKennna, Ford, Burnett, I think Rheaume, Dunlop, Drummond, all of you occupied that position for some period of time?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
McKenna and Ford rotated back and forth over several months a time for a period of, I think, probably about 18 months, and then, yes, Supt. Dunlop was there. I think he was the only -- those were the only three.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And other senior officers had resigned or retired at that time so you’d some of -- some of the normal robustness of the Ottawa Police Service?
Patricia Ferguson, Acting Deputy Chief (Ott-OPS)
Corporate knowledge and subject-matter experts, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there was also the issue, was it not, Deputy Chief, that there were some -- there was a lot of people within in the Ottawa Police Service who disliked the Chief and were not very happy with the Chief’s leadership; is that fair to say?