Volume 15 (November 2, 2022)
Volume 15 has 265 pages of testimony. 21 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Wendy Clements.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Keith Wilson - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 358 times)
- Tom Marazzo - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 336 times)
- Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 314 times)
- Pat King - Convoy participants (spoke 236 times)
- Paul Champ, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 171 times)
- John Mather, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 167 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 89 times)
- Robert MacKinnon, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 74 times)
- Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 66 times)
- Jessica Barrow, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 66 times)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 48 times)
- Ewa Krajewska, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 20 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 18 times)
- Kathleen Tanner, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 8 times)
- Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 7 times)
- Natasha Calvinho, Counsel - Pat King (spoke 4 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 3 times)
- Christopher Diana, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 3 times)
- Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 2 times)
- Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 1 time)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Monday, November 2, 2022 at 9:34 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Public Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l’état d’urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I apologize for the slight delay. Okay.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Jeffrey Leon, co-lead, Commission counsel. The next witness will be Keith Wilson.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Wilson, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ll swear on the Bible.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Ian Keith Wilson, w-i-l-s-o-n.
MR. KEITH WILSON, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEFFREY LEON
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Wilson.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to begin by getting some information on your background. I understand you’re from Edmonton, Alberta?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right. I’m originally from Burlington, Ontario. I spent the first part of my life here in Ontario and the balance of my life out west.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
You and I did it the opposite ways. And do you practice law in Edmonton?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
For how long?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think I’m 27, 28 years at the Bar now.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you’re a King’s Counsel?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can you describe for the Commission the nature of your practice?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’ve typically, throughout the course of my career, dealt with people who are up against bigger forces than them. I have represented many landowners, and farmers, and ranches in Alberta in disputes with oil companies, but I’ve also -- much of my practice has been focused on helping people when governments, in their mind, has gone to far, affecting their life, or their business, or their livelihood, and so I’ve done a lot of judicial review, and administrative law, and tribunal work.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And have you -- I take it you’ve appeared before all levels of Alberta Courts and many regulatory tribunals?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can I ask the clerk to bring up WTS00000058? You attended an interview with me and my colleagues on October 20, 2022?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you were provided with a draft summary that was prepared by Commission counsel?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you had an opportunity to review that summary, comment on it, and then you were provided with an amended version which you also reviewed?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I’m showing you on the screen what we’ve -- an interview summary; do you recognize this as your interview summary?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And do you have any changes or corrections you want to make this morning?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, other than, as we’ve heard from so many witnesses, there were so many events occurring and it was some time ago, but to the best of my recollection, this is accurate.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I can just interrupt, you have a tendency to speak rapidly. So if you could try and moderate it, that would be helpful. That’s for the interpreters, obviously.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you, Commissioner.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I’ll be referring to your interview summary from time to time but if at any time you need to refer to it, you just let me know and we can bring it up.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, I’d like to ask you some questions about how you became involved with the Freedom Convoy. I understand that you were contacted by the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms on February 1, 2022.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And a that time, you were acting on another matter through the JCCF?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what was that retainer?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The -- what happened was, in the fall of 2021, my wife, who is a retired nurse -- we’ve been married forever and have four kids and she became very concerned about what she was seeing in terms of government policy, health policy, felt that things were badly going awry, and she did something she’s never done before where she encouraged me to get involved and take a case. She’s normally the gatekeeper because I tend to take too many cases. And Ms. Chipiuk, who I’d practiced law with in the past on other cases, approached me and asked me if I’d be willing to take a case at the Justice Centre. They needed senior litigation counsel. I agreed. I -- they told me I could pick whichever case I would like and I wanted to -- I had been studying the travel mandates and I thought they were all ultra vires the Aeronautics Act and I wanted -- and obviously breaching Charter and so I agreed to lead that case with Former Premier Brian Peckford as your lead applicant.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that case is still going on?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We just got struck on mootness and we’re appealing that to the Federal Court of Appeal.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
When was that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We got struck not last Thursday, the Thursday before, while I was here. And then that led to -- on the 1st of February, I had a legal-team meeting set up, noticed some extra people in the Zoom room and let them in, and I was informed by one of the lawyers who I’d met for the first time on that Zoom call that the truckers in Ottawa, that morning, had reached out to the Justice Centre and asked the Justice Centre if they would provide legal support. The lawyers on the call told me that they’d assembled a team and they’d asked me if I would come to Ottawa the next morning and lead that team, and I agreed.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
You were able to clear your schedule that quickly?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I got spousal consent very quickly, so that helped tremendously, and yeah, I was.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, you say there was a team of four lawyers, I believe, in you statement?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s right.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who was on that team?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Eva Chipiuk.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Andre Memauri, Tim Turple, and Allison Pejovik.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And had you been following the news about what was happening in Ottawa?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I was very fascinated with how the convoy started to form. I took -- I was amazed at the rate at which the donations were coming in, just from following social media and the legacy media as well. And I thought I really want to keep an -- this is prior to February 1st, of course, and I thought, “Well, I really want to keep an eye on this,” and I realized probably the easiest way to do that would be to make a nominal donation and then I would get the email updates, so I donated $15. I’m a little embarrassed about that but just for the purpose of tracking and getting the regular email updates. I had no idea that a few days after I made that donation that I would be in Downtown Ottawa.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And on a personal level, did you have a view of what was happening in Ottawa?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I had a view -- I think there’s two questions there. Obviously, I had grave concerns about the government’s policies and the harm that I’d witnessed in my own family with our children, with my neighbours, with my friends, with my colleagues. So, in that context, I have a very strong view that I think tremendous mistakes were made at a policy level. But with respect to the convoy, I felt that it was providing an opportunity for people who were also concerned to symbolize that concern and demonstrate it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And at that point in time, what did you understand your retainer to be?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My instructions were to work with the leadership group to provide on-the-ground legal support. One of the things that we thought we would likely be doing, which we didn’t end up having to do, was to obtain an injunction. We anticipated that we would have to defend injunctions, provide legal advice as to the types of activities that they’re allowed to do and the things they’re not allowed to do. Also, it was clear at that time if you recall -- I apologize if I'm talking too fast again, sir -- if you recall that around that time, GoFundMe had publicly announced the suspension of the fundraising campaign. I was also told at the time of being engaged that work was underway to set up a not- for-profit corporation, Canada Corp., to ensure a proper organizational structure for the administration of the donations. Something else that I have done in my background that proved to be extremely useful, not only in Ottawa but in the event since, is I've represented not-for-profit groups and I've represented various industry organizations, so I've dealt with conflicts and strong personalities on boards of directors and seen the interpersonal quarrels that can arise, and some of the groups that I've represented have been comprised of independent ranchers, and upon arriving in Ottawa, I immediately realized this person had similarities between independent Alberta ranchers and independent truckers. So that’s some context.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So the next day, February 2nd, you went to Ottawa, and I understand that you went on a private aircraft?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. It was a small bumpy -- I forget the name of it -- but it's a twin prop and we left at 8:00 a.m. on -- we left at 8:00 a.m. on that February 2nd and we landed in Ottawa at about 10:30. So it was not a luxury experience. We went up and down many times. We stopped in Medicine Hat, we stopped in Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, and then Thunder Bay. All the stops were to pick up additional lawyers and the accountant, or the last one to get fuel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, at the time, did you consider or did you wonder, given the nature of your retainer, why you were being flown on a private aircraft?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because at that time, the understanding of the interim orders under the Aeronautics Act is that it did not extend to private charter aircraft, and some of the passengers on that aircraft were unvaccinated, so that was a way for us to get to Ottawa quickly under the interim order.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you know at the time who was paying for the aircraft?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was confusion about that in the same way that there was confusion about -- there was two other groups that had allegedly made arrangements for us to have hotel rooms when we arrived, and so the justice centre made a backup plan to have a third hotel ready, and that’s the one we ended up using. As we were boarding the plane, whoever was supposedly going to be paying for this charter turned out they weren’t going to pay for the charter, and the justice centre made the decision to send us anyway, and if necessary, they would pay for the charter if whoever was going -- who had originally said they were going to pay for it didn’t.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And do you know who ultimately paid for the charter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe it was -- and I'm not certain about this -- but I believe it was paid from funds donated through Chris Garrah, this "Adopt a Trucker".
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, you heard yesterday Ms. Belton's evidence about a conversation she had with you regarding disclosure of this flight?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Disclosure of, sorry?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Information about this flight?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I believe she said you -- she was told not to say anything about it?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that’s not correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What do you have to say about that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had no discussion with Ms. Belton about this flight. I had no concerns about the flight. I'm double vaccinated. It wouldn't have mattered what aircraft I was on.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, I'd like to just pause here for a moment. I know that this point, you're acting as a lawyer, and to the extent that any of my questions would require you to disclose privileged information where privilege has not been waived, would you tell me and not answer?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I will. And just so everyone's clear, I do, in July, my clients instructed me to make myself -- to consider making myself available as a witness, and granted a waiver with respect to these matters, this proceeding, and we've subsequently confirmed it in writing to avoid any confusion that I am here today with a waiver from my clients with respect to solicitor-client privilege.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And when you say, "your clients", who did you include in that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The clients include Freedom Corp., so the -- that’s their short name for the full legal name of the not-for-profit. It includes Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, Danny Bulford, Tom Marazzo, Sean Tiessen, Miranda Gasior, Joe Janzen, Dale Enns, and Ryan Mihilewicz, and I believe that’s the full list.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I understand that during the period you were about to talk to, you were also dealing with Chad Eros?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was he part of your client group?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was offered an opportunity to become a client and did not sign a retainer agreement.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
My understanding is he -- his position is he was a client and that he has not waived privilege.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s fine, and out an abundance of caution, I -- we can respect that. I do know that the absence of a retainer was confirmed by him in writing, so -- to me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if at any time you're in doubt about privilege and you need time to consult with Mr. Miller, you'll just let me know?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. I absolutely will. Thank you.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, you arrived in Ottawa then with the group on -- in the evening of February 2nd?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand you rented a car and went to the ARC Hotel?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. There was -- I was in a taxi with Dwayne and I can't recall specifically who else was with me. And then the others rented a car, so there was -- we had two modes of getting there and the decision was to get me and Dwayne downtown as quick as possible because we had so little time to deal with whatever we anticipated coming. While we were on the plane, we received a briefing on and reviewed the emails from GoFundMe, which are in the record here, setting out all of their concerns, and then we drafted during that flight, a substantive -- I think my letter is four or five pages -- addressing each of the issues that GoFundMe had raised, so we were working on that flight. We wanted to get downtown to meet the clients, sign retainer agreements, and brief them and give them an opportunity to review that letter to GoFundMe, so to get it to GoFundMe as soon as possible.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you went to the ARC Hotel; am I right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that’s downtown Ottawa, Slater and Metcalfe, I believe?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. The vehicle we were in drove right up to the front door of the hotel just like it would today.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And when you got to the ARC Hotel, I understand you met with Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, and was there anybody else there?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, Miranda Gracer was there, Sean Tiessen was there, and I believe that’s it. There might have been one or two other people in the room, but that’s the best, to my recollection.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And had you met any of these people before?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, never.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Had you at any time heard about Ms. Lich?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I heard about her, but only in the context of the Freedom Convoy. Anything else I learned about Ms. Lich, I'm pretty sure I Googled her as soon as I was starting to watch the convoy forum, so this would be in, you know, late January, to try to understand who she was, but I have had no prior dealings with her or awareness of who she was or what she was engaged in until I Googled her because of the convoy.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And about what time did you arrive at the hotel?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My memory is it was about 11:30 at night.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Could you tell the Commissioner what happened at that point, in brief?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure. Well, I mean, first of all we drove through the downtown so we could -- that was my first chance to see where all the trucks and the protest vehicles were, and all the signage and so on, and how you could still drive around. There was always one lane open. That’s how we got right to the hotel. When I walked into the lobby I could really feel the tension. There was truckers everywhere. There were supplies stacked and piled everywhere. And the tension was -- I could really feel the tension.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So we come to the meeting that you had with your prospective -- at that time prospective clients. And you said you -- did you finalize your retainer at that point?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. André Memauri had the paperwork and had them sign.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did the nature of your retainer differ from what you told us about what your understanding was about it?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I should clarify one thing, that the way the Justice Centre operated at that time the retainer has their name on it, the Justice Centre ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- as the legal provider. Was the retainer different? No. The nature of my anticipated involvement remained constant.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take it you then proceeded to get to know your clients?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
How long did that evening meeting last? You got there at 11:30; when did it end?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not that long. Everybody was exhausted. We had just had, you know, landing and taking off several times in a small aircraft is a little bit hard on the body. And not to mention I’m sure all of the people on our team were the same. And this happened so fast we had very very little sleep. We could tell the fatigue and that was when I first was informed that Tamara was aware that some group was calling a press conference for the next day and they wanted her to speak. And I immediately started asking questions about -- okay, who has called the press conference? What’s its purpose? Who all is speaking? Was there a media advisory? She didn’t know. You know, this is not her world. I've dealt with high profile cases and communication specialists extensively. So she didn’t even know what a media advisory was.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you wrote out her remarks for her?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, what happened as I had no intention of being in the media. I was there to not be in the media but to provide guidance. And even in that first meeting I started hearing these different groups’ names and I was -- okay, well, who is this group and why are they here? And what -- this other group -- it was -- the chess board was starting to -- the fog was starting to lift and I was sort of -- oh boy. This is going to get complicated. The major concern I had was two things. Tamara made it clear to me that she did not feel comfortable -- appreciate, she was absolutely exhausted. They all were. I could see the fatigue. And she didn’t feel comfortable being exposed to a long format press conference where every media person could come at her, basically. And so I was already giving some thought as to how we could possibly restructure the press conference to make it more orderly and make it more effective in conveying some information that I thought the public and the world wanted to hear.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you prepare her remarks for her?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So the next morning my legal team was adamant that I should take a more active role in the press conference. I was initially reluctant. When we got from our hotel which was out of the downtown to the ARC, and went into one of the logistics rooms on the main floor -- it’s a big boardroom -- I got more information about the plan for the press conference and that was it was going to include a number of medical doctors.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Sir, my question was just whether you prepared her remarks, Tamara Lich’s remarks for her.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was -- Take Back Our Freedoms had an external communications consulting firm that had prepared a speech for her. A number of us including Tamara Lich reviewed it, did not like the messaging, so Ms. Chipiuk and another individual, a medical doctor, rewrote it. It still wasn’t in Ms. Lich’s voice, so I assisted Ms. Lich in revising that statement and it was finalized in very short order because we only had less than an hour. And then she proceeded to the press conference to deliver it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Clerk, can I ask you to bring me up JCF00000155, the video. And I’d just like to play one minute from that. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Can I ask you to stop it there, please? You say that Ms. Lich was the spark that lit this fire. Who told you that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No one told me that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Where did it come from?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My brain.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did your brain figure that out?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I observed what was happening and I noticed that -- this is again prior to me being engaged -- that she seemed to be the organic leader. She was the one that was doing the Facebook lives and other videos. She was the one who was sending out the messages. And she seemed to have the personality of a natural leader that inspired others to get behind her.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Now, can you bring up, Mr. Clerk HRF0000139? And this is a letter to GoFundMe that I think -- dated February 3rd. And that’s the letter you told us was drafted on the plane, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And just if you can scroll up, please, a little more. You note at the bottom there, you set out your understanding of the evolving goals of the committee’s GoFundMe campaign?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if you can just scroll up, I won’t read them but those are -- that’s what you understood to be the goals?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just one moment. Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if you can just scroll up a little more and stop there. The paragraph beginning, “Everyone has been surprised…” -- you say at the last sentence there: “The truckers have been open with the media that they are not leaving until the government vaccine mandates are lifted.” Who on the plane provided that information?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think it might have been either in some of the drafts that Mr. Eros had prepared, and understand that we did a draft on the plane, so that would have been the -- is that the Wednesday night? Anyway, the February 2nd. Then we had the letter reviewed by the clients, and then the letter the next morning was reviewed by the Finance Committee back in Alberta, and a number of people requested, as normally occurs if you circulate a draft, that words and sentences be added. So I don't know exactly ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- whether that arose on the very first draft, or whether that was something that some of the leaders in Ottawa had added, or whether that was something that the Finance Committee wanted added.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can you just scroll up a little more, please? You note in the second bolded paragraphs that, "[The] intention is not to reimburse those [for -- those] committing unlawful acts or criminal acts." And you say, "The [...] Convoy has [...] been clear [...] it only supports peaceful assembly." At this point in time, I take it you were aware that there were some officials that are -- were suggesting that some of the conduct going on was unlawful?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and I've heard that a lot. And what I've always struggled with is at what point in time did those officials believe it became an unlawful assembly and on what basis, because it just seemed to be a terminology that started to morph and become adopted with no particular triggering event or explanation as to what that individual or official thought constituted an unlawful assembly.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And later that day, you attended a phone meeting with GoFundMe?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And among other people ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would have been on the -- sorry, that would have been on a Thursday afternoon.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And among other people, Mr. Eros was on that call?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, all of the lawyers that were with me and a number of the Board members from Freedom Corp. were there as well as Ms. Lich.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And -- or, Mr. Clerk, can you bring up WTS00000032 and go to page 8? This is a witness statement provided by Chad Eros, and he made certain statements in there and I want to give you an opportunity to respond.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
On page 8, he says that the -- if you can scroll up? A little more, please. And I'm not seeing it right now, but he does say that he -- the JCCF lawyers and specifically you were trying to take over the meeting and assert themselves as the spokespeople on the financial side of the convoy; do you remember reading that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't remember reading that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Right there in where it says Mr. Wilson trying to take over the meeting? All I want to know is whether you want to respond to that.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I mean, what does that mean? When I -- I led the meeting. Someone needs to lead a meeting from -- when you have two parties. Mr. Eros spoke, other lawyers spoke. Mr. Eros spoke extensively in explaining to the GoFundMe executives and their legal team, because there was -- I would estimate by memory, there was 10 to 12 people from GoFundMe on the other side of the conference call. This was a call, not a Zoom.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned -- sorry.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and we relied heavily, at least our side, on Mr. Eros explaining the financial controls and who he was and his background in banking and as a CPA and in his role as treasurer, but, yes, I did lead the discussion. That is true.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand as well that you had some discussions with Mr. Eros about the organization Take Back our Freedoms?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did Ms. Lich have some concerns about that organization?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what were those concerns?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My memory is, as I indicated in my witness statement, and it wasn't just Take Back our Freedoms, this was happening extensively and it happened immediate -- or I observed it immediately after the first day when I actually started to, you know, appreciate I'm coming in at night and go through the lobby and up to a hotel room and then back out. The next day, I'm now starting to interact more, and I'm now in a big boardroom and there's these different people coming and going, and I'm trying to figure out who's who. You know, there was no organization chart or introduction session. It's not even like a meeting where you go around the table and introduce one another. That didn't happen. It was constant chaos. So I learned that there was a group and then I learned there was this TBOF. I didn't even know what TBOF meant initially. And then I'd heard about this Canada Unity, and then there was Mr. Bourgault's group, something for Freedom, and there was Veterans for Freedom. I could go on. There was so many different groups I was starting to learn of. And what I observed was that the different groups were trying to take certain -- trying to take control. And what I observed and believed to be true is that some were trying to take control because they saw the organic flat hierarchy largely of the convoy and wanted to make it more successful and felt they had the organizational capability to do that. Other groups seemed to want to reshape the Freedom Convoy into their own event, branded theirs, and I got the distinct impression from some other that they were trying to get their hands on what, at that point, was $10 million in donations. And my impression and my recollection from the discussions that I would have with Ms. Lich as various people would demand private meetings, or, you know, play games and say we weren't allowed to use the boardroom because it was their boardroom, those sorts of things, that she was under pressure from a lot of these different groups for the reasons I've given.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And coming back to -- kind of Take Back our Freedoms, and am I correct that Mr. Peckford was the chairman of that organization?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and it's interesting because he's more of a symbolic chairman. In all of my discussions with the Honourable Brian Peckford, I would speak with him, not every evening, but, you know, maybe every second or third evening. My telephone logs confirm that, that I've tendered in evidence. And I was looking for guidance from him. He was -- you know, he's an elder statesman. He's been through a lot. He's one of the founding fathers of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, very seasoned politician. And so at no time did we ever have any discussion around Take Back our Freedoms was -- did I feel he was speaking on their behalf. Him and I had become somewhat close through my work on his Federal Travel Mandate Charter challenge in Federal Court, and I was using him as a resource and someone to run ideas past and get guidance from.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And am I correct that you were aware that at least Mr. Eros had some concern that if there were concerns about Take Back our Freedoms, and you were acting on behalf of Mr. Peckford in that other litigation that you were in a conflict of interest position?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was never raised at any time. I don't feel I was in a conflict because at no time did Mr. Peckford ever ask of anything of me. I was the only one who asked of things from him. And the concerns that you're referring to are concerns that were never aired at any time during Ottawa by Mr. Eros, and only some months later after the Ottawa protest had concluded.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And then just to shift a little bit here, am I -- you went -- you were staying at the ARC Hotel, is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Where were you staying?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At a Best Western, I believe it was in -- it was about a 20-minute drive towards the East.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So you arrived there, excuse me, on February ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So that’s, what, 20-minute drive from downtown.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Right.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So each day it took us 20 minutes to get into the downtown core.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so you arrived there on -- did you stay there the night of February 2nd?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And when did you leave?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Our stay there ended -- it would have been approximately around the Sunday of -- just trying to visualize a calendar here -- the second Sunday would have been -- anyway, it was -- I think we stayed there for about 10 days.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then where did you go?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Then we went to the Swiss Hotel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how long did you stay there?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We stayed there until the Wednesday, which would have been the 16th. It was on the Wednesday that it was apparent -- this was when we -- I had had the phone call from Steve K., City Manager, advising me that the third attempt to move trucks was going to be unsuccessful, and he was very disappointed, as he himself testified here.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I was just asking you the date, sir, and ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I’m -- sorry; I’m trying to contextualize things, and I have to remember things by events because I wasn’t calendar focused. And so it was that day that it became apparent that something dramatic was about to happen by the government and the police, and as a result Ms. Lich instructed Ms. Chipiuk and I -- because we were the only two lawyers left on the ground at that point -- to relocate to a new hotel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And where was that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Le Germain.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how long did you stay there?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I stayed there until the Sunday, which would be the 20th or the 21st, I believe.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then did you go back to Edmonton?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I went home, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, did you have interaction, during the period you were there, with James Bauder?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. And if I did it might have been where I was in a room or in a hallway or on a sidewalk and he shook my hand, but I met so many people ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- the interaction would have been unremarkable.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you became aware of his -- or Canada Unity’s Memorandum of Understanding?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, very early on I was approached by many people, both within the client group and others asking me about it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I believe -- is it fair to say it was, in your -- from your perception, getting a lot of attention and you talked to a lot of people about it?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, they would ask me. I didn’t make it a topic that I felt I needed to discuss with others, but I did get asked it a lot.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And what I -- you know the first thing that’s obvious about it is a Memorandum of Understanding, in its simplest legal concept, requires all parties to it to sign. And it was evident that the signature lines on the last page were not going to be signed by the Governor General, nor someone from the Senate; and in any event I would explain -- when I was asked by the Board, to brief them on it, I explained that -- and I apologize for my voice, I’m suffering from a cold.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
There’s a water there for you.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, thank you. That I explained that there’s only two ways that governments change under our Parliamentary system. The first is when the Prime Minister contacts the government, the Governor General, and dissolves Parliament and asks that the writ be dropped. The second, through Parliamentary tradition, is where a bill is identified as a confidence vote and Parliament votes to defeat the bill. In that second instance, the Prime Minister would similarly contact the Governor General. This idea that a certain number of people could sign a document, and that would somehow compel, or incentivize, and lead to a changing government, I explained, consistently and repeatedly, is legal nonsense.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you knew that -- did you know at the time that almost somewhere around 300,000 people had signed on to a petition regarding that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t now the number; I knew that it pre-existed the convoy. I knew that Canada Unity pre-existed the convoy as a group by at least a year or two; that it was not a creation of the convoy. It was one of these hanger-ons.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So I take it you were surprised that so many people were taking it seriously; is that fair to say?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I am very surprised at -- this is not the first time I’ve run into this; I’ve had to litigate opposite the Sovereign Citizen folks, and quoting Admiralty law and think that if they present a flag in a certain way in a court, the Judge loses jurisdiction. I’ve had to encounter this many, many times in my career, so I was just like, here’s another one.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, on February 4th, I understand you were served with a Statement of Claim and an injunction motion by Mr. Champ?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you represented the convoy leaders in that matter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Not everyone who was named at that time, is my memory. That pleading has been amended a number of times and is a evolving document, is to be expected in a litigation of that nature.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you oppose the injunction?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What we did was, we received it at approximately 4 o’clock. That was at the same time that we also received notification publicly that GoFundMe had determined that the fundraiser violated the terms of service and they were stopping it, and either going to send the money to some other group or refund it. We had a lot going on. We were served with a motion record, emergency motion returnable the Saturday afternoon at 1 o’clock. So my legal team and I prepared through the night. Through the night Mr. Champ continued to provide supplemental materials in the magnitude of hundreds of pages. We had everything ready to go by noonish the next day but not even enough time for me to read the factum. So I took ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you oppose the motion?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m answering your question, sir. We took the position that it was just improper for the Court to hear it on the Saturday. We agreed to come back on the Monday. I had informed my clients that there is no way the Court was not going to grant the injunction, and that the best we could do was to ensure that the terms of the injunction order were not excessive, were not prone to abuse and arbitrariness, and had an acknowledgement of their right to protest. So we -- the real argument before the Court was, what is the terms of the order going to be and get -- overcoming the challenge of in rem versus in personam orders.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Now, around that same time, I understand from your witness statement that you had some discussions with Mr. Marazzo about his concerns that there had seemed to be a change in tone in the response of the Ontario Police Service to the protestors.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, the Ottawa Police Service, that’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that change in tone was related to what Mr. Marazzo saw as a shift from a negotiation type response to a surge and contain enforcement type response. Is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Precise.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And was that consistent with your view?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And we had -- to the extent we had the opportunity because, as you can appreciate, it was a very, very, fast-moving, chaotic environment with so many either interpersonal issues arising between the players or logistical issues or whatever. But we did have occasion when we were -- Ms. Chipiuk and I were leaving our hotel, we worked -- it must have been -- it must have been the Monday when we were in Court because we ran those from our hotel outside of downtown. And we heard Ms. Deans in an interview on CBC’s “As It Happens”, and her language was deeply troubling and that, combined with Mr. Marazzo expressing concerns about the change in tone from Chief Sloly, it heightened the urgency of trying to find a way to open up dialogue. And I had -- if you look at my phone records, you’ll see that my first attempt to bring in Mr. French occurred, actually, that weekend.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what was your strategy as a result of this?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, in my past I’ve been involved in two international scope crises. The first was the 2003 mad cow disease outbreak in Alberta where I was representing a government agency, and the second was in 2009, H1N1, where I represented the people who were patient zero for the Zootonic (sic) transmutation. And so I’ve been in Emergency Operations Centres of government on two major incidents and I’ve seen the chaos that occurs in there and, you know, I know the importance of dialogue and communication and I can sense the danger of the parties not talking even if it’s back channel. So I had a strong desire to open up back channel communications so we could bring the temperature down and start to see if there’s ways to resolve this, to deescalate this, wind this thing down, so that was a heavy focus of mine at all times.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I take it that you contacted Mr. Peckford and asked him if he had any contacts that might help?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then you received a call from Dean French.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And in your statement, you indicate that Mr. French suggested that it would -- what was needed was to move trucks out of the residential areas. Is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, he laid down some ground rules, sort of base conditions for his willingness to get involved and try and be an intermediary. And so we had -- I still remember, and Eva Chipiuk reminded me of it, that we had a very, very intense phone call where he was testing me and I was testing him. But what he made absolutely clear was that the truckers had to be willing to move out of the residential areas and I had to be honest with him about whether I thought that was achievable. And once he learned to trust me and I learned to trust him, we both thought it was achievable, so then he proceeded to go to work.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
To which?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To go to work on it, go behind the scenes. And I wasn’t asking for the details. That’s not it works if you’ve ever done this before. You just let them go do their thing behind the scenes and they will come back to you at the appropriate time.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And on February 8, I understand that Mr. Marazzo asked if you and Ms. Chipiuk would come to a meeting at City Hall.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, what had happened was I first met Mr. Marazzo on the Thursday that we had the press conference. It was later in the day that I was introduced to him. It’s the first time I had met him. I immediately was impressed with his calmness and his levelheadedness. He didn’t -- there was a lot of emotion up and down with various individuals in these rooms, but Tom was always just completely calm. And he had been observing for longer than us, and he had been working with the police liaisons and felt that he was in a circle where nothing material was arising. And he advised in the meeting room -- I remember he came in, he left a meeting with the PLTs and had told them that he didn’t want to speak with them any more and he needed somebody that was more of an Inspector level, somebody who had some actual decision-making capability and greater authority. Things went quiet. The next morning, this would be now the Tuesday ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
February 8?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. Tom told Ms. Chipiuk and I that he wanted us to come to a meeting at City Hall at noon, and I said, “Okay. What’s this all about and does the City know we’re coming?” because one thing that is a certainty a lawyer will -- of any experience will share with you is that it’s always a bad idea for your client to unexpectedly bring lawyers to meetings. It never goes well. So I’ve never before consented to that in my 27 years, but this being such an unusual circumstance, I agreed that we would go. And we arrived at City Hall and had quite an interesting interaction in order to get upstairs to meet with Steve K.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I take it that you met with the PLT officers and they weren’t very happy about your being there. Is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Animatedly angry, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so as you indicate in your statement, you told them that -- to try and cool things down that you would seek instructions not to impose the continuation of the injunction which was coming up in Court.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. We -- the only thing -- you know, you kind of -- you go through your pockets and see what do I have, and I had nothing. And Ms. Chipiuk is astute, and she has pointed out that there was one thing that we did control, and that was what recommendation we could make to the Board about what position they would take on the continuation of the injunction because Justice MacLean had issued it for a set number of days. I can’t remember the number of days, but it was only set and we had a returnable date that was coming up in the following -- either the -- later that week, I believe. You can figure it out from the pleadings. So we said that we would seek instructions from our client not to oppose it becoming a long-term injunction, so the quiet that had resulted from the injunction would remain, and that was what we offered.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Had it been your instructions to oppose the continuation of that injunction?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had not yet received instructions at that point.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take it that you ultimately had the meeting with Mr. Kanellakos?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And were you here for his testimony?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And is there anything about what he testified to regarding the meeting that you disagree with?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a couple of sort of nuanced details, but -- that I think he might have just been misremembering, at least, or, alternatively, I am, but nothing of substance.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And subsequent to that meeting -- or sorry. Let me take a step back.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I understand that he had two concerns. One was to keep the meeting secret because he didn’t want it to get out if there wasn’t a successful negotiation, and he wanted to move trucks from the residential area and the Rideau-Sussex intersection.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, he’d given us a list of three -- so I led by saying once Eva and I went into the room -- and I know there was some conflicting testimony. There was three PLTs in that room. There was seven people in that room. I know someone testified. I think it was one of the -- it might have been Drummond -- that there was no police in the room. That is absolutely false. And he likely just wasn’t accurately briefed, I suspect. And I led by saying, “Okay, give us your top three. If we can get movement at three locations in the downtown -- if we can move trucks and protesters, where can we provide the most immediate and effective relief?” And they gave us the three locations and one of them was Kent and I can’t recall the other two. But what I also picked up on, as did Tom Marazzo and Eva Chipiuk, is that they spent almost the entirety of their time talking about Rideau and Sussex. And so even though we had this list it was clear to me and to us as a team that Rideau and Sussex was in a category by itself. So we promised them at the end of the meeting that we would keep the meeting secret. And the reason that that was important is in these situations it’s always about building trust and it’s the littlest things you can control that build the trust. And so we agreed to keep the meeting secret. And in fact no word got out about the meeting. And I said -- and I'm not from Ottawa so, you know, I was stuck in buildings and then when I was on the move it was often at night so I was very spatially disoriented all the time. And so I said to Eva Chipiuk who had done her -- I don’t think it was her Master of Laws; I think it was her undergrad or her LLB here in Ottawa so she was very familiar with the area, and om obviously was. So I said, “Can you please take me to Rideau and Sussex?”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So I take it that after the meeting the three of you went to the intersection?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Clerk, could you bring up HRF00001550? I take it this is a picture that you took of the intersection at that time?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I took several pictures including a picture with Mr. Marazzo and Ms. Chipiuk in it. I started doing that just to help keep track of things, you know. You get metadata on your phone so it shows exactly what time and place so I started taking these pictures.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you indicate in your statement that at some point you left the intersection and Ms. Chipiuk and Mr. Marazzo remained to talk to the protesters?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. We decided -- and this is the way things worked, particularly with the people that were there involved in the protest, is if something needed to be done you did it right there and then. You never waited. So the decision -- we had a discussion and it was Eva and Tom were like, well, why don’t we try and move this intersection right now? So I said, “All right. I’ll go back to the Sheridan.” And the reason that we agreed that I would go is because we had so little to negotiate with in terms of tools and tactics with the protesters. Because I had been on the stage at the press conference the week previous, I was recognized as the truckers’ convoy lawyer. So the idea was that if they made significant progress but needed just something more to get the truckers to agree to clear this intersection that I would -- that they would say, “Well, we’re going to have to have Keith come.” And then I would come and try and use whatever influence I may have. So that was the plan. And to be clear -- because there’s been conflicting evidence about this -- our focus at this intersection was to clear it, which is very different from the dal with the mayor what the objective was.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This was to clear this intersection and as soon as we got there we could see why it was such a concern. I think there are six streets that come together. There’s the very high end condo tower. There’s the U.S. embassy down the road. The Senate. And on and on. And we were like, “Okay, we understand why they want this cleared.” So our goal was at least to clear up the west bound lanes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if we can bring up -- back up your witness summary, WTS00000058 at page 7? And can you scroll up a bit? You set out there -- and in the interest of time I'm not going to take you through it all -- of what happened at Rideau and Sussex that led up to your finding out that there was a willing -- or at least Ms. Chipiuk and Mr. Marazzo at the bottom paragraph -- finding out that the truckers had agreed to move their vehicles to Wellington but there was a problem in removing the jersey barriers and that fell through.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. It was not -- what had happened was my briefing is that we had an advantage because the first three big trucks that would have to move were the ones that had the Polish immigrants. And Ms. Chipiuk is Polish background and can speak Polish fluently. And she very quickly developed a rapport with these truckers. And we knew if we could get the first three to go it would incentivize the other ones to join in. There was a sense of each of these areas that people didn’t want to be left alone, that there was a real group think going, we picked up. So but this was an intense group. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, you've heard about that. There was this -- the first time I heard it was in this Inquiry so it was never on our radar. But so Mr. Marazzo gathered about 80 of them together and in the middle of the intersection surrounded by their vehicles, and got them to pick amongst themselves two representatives. And he moved forward in effectively a parlay in a military sense with the police to the west up closer to Wellington. And then the particular police liaison, Sgt. Fung Li, had a little bit of an aggressive personality. He could really turn aggressive very quickly. And Mr. Marazzo was concerned about him interacting directly with the trucker leaders from the intersection. So Tom went up and spoke to Fung and said, “Okay, bring in the equipment. We’re ready to move at least half the intersection, the westbound, up into that space on Wellington.” Fung Li’s phone rang. He stepped back. And then turned around and said to Tom, “The deal’s off. They’re not going to move the barricades.” And we now know from the record and the testimony of others that others higher up the command vetoed that movement. So Tom ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But this is important. Tom did not go back and disclose what actually happened. He said, “They just can’t get the barriers moved,” because he didn’t ant to destroy what little progress we had made. We agreed to have a cooling off because a lot of the truckers were upset. They had had arrangements to make the kinds of moves before our involvement and they felt that the police had double-crossed them. And so we decided to give everything a colling off and to try again on the Thursday.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so that was on February 8th. And I take it that February 9th there were some discussions with the OPS PLT officers and that led to February 10th where you returned to Rideau and Sussex to try again. Is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
On the 9th, the PLTs about 4:45, 4:40 p.m. contacted me through Eva Chipiuk. That was -- the protocol we had is that if they needed to get me urgently they would call her because she was always at my side. And they came over to a meeting in the main floor of the Sheridan. It was an intense meeting. But we briefed the Board that evening and Tamara Lich requested that all of the road captains, all legal, the board members all assemble at Sussex -- or Rideau and Sussex the next morning prior to 10:00 a.m. in an effort -- an all-out effort to use their persuasive skills. We had an initial success where there was a LoadSafe truck that you’ll see lots of picture -- LoadSafe is what was on the logo on the side of the cargo trailer of the semitruck and it was parked by the valet area of the Chateau Laurier and it was pulled up on angle almost jackknife blocking almost four lanes and the police did not like it all. They had been trying to move it and I was standing with a large group of PLTs, Ms. Lich, and others. Mr. Barber came up. We said, “Hey.” I said, “Chris” -- or one of us said to Chris, “Is there any way you could go talk to that guy?” And as you heard, we all watched in amazement; Chris jumped up on the step and was hanging onto the mirror, the window came down, he started visiting with a few minutes and all of the sudden, Chris hollered out for truckers to come and set up a perimeter to safely back him up and the backup alarm went on and they repositioned him so he was right up against the curb. And I remember, we all thought, “Okay, this is a good sign. Maybe we’re going to do this.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then, as you say in your statement, the -- there was a crowd that suddenly appeared who didn’t understand what was going on and they, in effect, surrounded the area.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Would -- just a little bit more detail because I think it’s important for context.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
If I can just stop you for one second. I do have a video. Would that help?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’d like to contextualize it first if I could?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Sure.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So what happened was we had a bunch of failed attempts to get the -- enough truckers to agree. We always had the Polish guys at the front that were ready to go. So a lot of the team -- or those of that were there to try and clear that intersection were done. It was a very, very cold day. I was back and forth trying to keep warm in the lobby of the Chateau Laurier. That’s when I got served with one of the seizure orders and was dealing with the TD Bank on interpleader. There was so many things going on all the time. In any event, we had largely given up. It was just about to get dark and then one of the PLTs came out of the area. And he came up -- and Tamara was with me and a couple of others -- and said, “They’re ready to go.” And Tamara’s like, “Well, then let’s do it.” So they called in the big heavy-lift equipment to lift the barricade and they ended up bringing a tow truck as well a flatbed tow truck because, as you may have saw in one of those pictures, they have these orange mechanical devices that are actually bolted to the ground and when the vehicle drives over it, it comes up behind it. So we were waiting. It was now getting dark and, as was typical, is you get into four or five o’clock, six o’clock, the number of Ottawa residents and others that would start to converge in the downtown would significantly increase each night. This was typical of that. Well, when the trucks and the heavy equipment arrived, they’ve got yellow flashing lights; they have backup alarms. That caused even more people to come. Because we were anticipating moving the trucks up past the War Memorial to Wellington, we needed -- the police were obviously handling this part of it -- more police to create a safety corridor so that no one got run over. And as the one vehicle backed up, and its alarm was very loud, people started to rush in. Tamara had been removing from the barricades the signs. No one else -- the police were smart not to go and taking signs down. It was Tamara. And she was recognized so she would place the signs over on another railing by the Senate to get the barricades ready to be removed safely without controversy, hopefully. Just as the equipment was going, people rushed behind the tow truck because they seemed to think that the police were about to do something bad to the truckers. I was talking to them. Tamara was individually talking to groups of people, “It’s okay. This is a cooperative move. We’re trying to clear this intersection. The truckers want to move up to Wellington.” And then people would sit on a barricade. Tamara would go talk to them. They’d apologize, get off the barricade. She’d turn around and they were on another -- different people were on another barricade. And then the police were further in. Tamara and I were trying to talk to as many people as we could to explain that it was okay, “This is a cooperative move. We’re just trying to clear an intersection.” And then the people just swarmed in, and that’s where the video plays.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you pull up, please, HRF00001587?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And I’m in the orange, high- visibility coat ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- which they jokingly called my “trucker camo”. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Now, I’d like to move back to your statement, please. That’s WTS00000058. And we only have about 15 minutes so ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- I think we’re going to try and speed it up a bit. The ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. That video was what date? That’s ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That would have been on the Thursday, sir. That would have been February 10th, the evening. That would have been about five o’clock.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, go ahead.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, you set out, starting at page 9 of your statement, the -- your dealings with Mr. French and leading up to a meeting with him on February 11th where he presented to you a draft letter from the mayor. And you went and got instructions and you discussed with the board and the board agreed, essentially, to go ahead with the proposed deal to move trucks out of the residential areas; is that ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. And the proposal was not -- was never just to move up to Wellington. It was always recognized that probably only 25 percent of the vehicles could go to Wellington. The more dominant theme of the plan was for the vehicles to move to the remote locations at Embrun Exit 88 and Arnprior and to have -- expand the shuttle busses that were already running. And there was also -- this is a very important point and I don’t know that it’s come out yet, is a lot of people who were there, the truckers, never planned to stay that long but the Canadians they met along the way, and the stories and the heartache that they heard, and the trust and plea that they heard from those people, many of the truckers I talked to felt this obligation to stay as long as they could but they also needed a way to leave gracefully and respectfully. And one of the things we recognized was that if 75 percent of the vehicles were going to be given an opportunity leave and go out to Embrun or Arnprior, that some would actually use it as an opportunity to go home and do so respectfully. So that was an important part of the plan.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that’s what you referred to in your statement as an “exit strategy”?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And in that regard, if you can bring up, please, HRF00001278. And this is an email. It starts at the top, February 12th, from you?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s in reverse chronological order, so that would be the latest response. I had prepared -- following the Board meeting on the Friday evening where the Board decided to approve the deal, they were all there in person except for Mr. Dichter, who was incapacitated due to his broken leg and had to stay at the Sheraton, but we had him join by conference call. And because of the significance of this, even though on Friday they had all agreed to proceed to proceed with the deal with the mayor, I wanted to get something documented, so I sent an email to all of the Board. You can see where it says right just by where the mouse is, a little bit up and to the left, GIDG. That’s part of Brigitte Belton's email address. You'll also see -- you can see Mr. Dichter's emails on this as well. It's the first one on the CC line, actually. And I received responses from everyone approving it. It makes reference to the arrangement with the mayor. The plan was how are we going to get the truckers on side? So the decision was made to do this Freedom Manifest document where Tamara, with all the Board members, signing at the bottom, would say, "It's time. We've had an impact. It's time to do something differently. It's time for us to focus our presence on Wellington where our beef is with the federal government," for them, and for them to have the other trucks move out to the other locations.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if you can just scroll up, please? There, stop right there. You say in that email from February 12th at 3:47, you indicate that the drafting committee had looked into a way to draft a document that would describe the Freedom Convoy's overall demands of all governments and a way forward strategy. And so they were working on the broader document for review by the Board tomorrow, but you're circulating a draft now as a -- what is intended to be a communication for the captains and truckers regarding the deal with the mayor. And then you say on the -- what's the end of that line after Wellington and Elgin: "While at the same time, taking away the excuse that Trudeau wants to unleash the police goons and seize trucks. Remember, we are trying to block Trudeau from having the justification to cause the police to use the new emergency powers against the truckers and allow the truckers to stay here in Ottawa for as long as it takes, et cetera." Now, this is February 12th. At that point in time, did you anticipate use of the Emergencies Act?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And further, there's -- if -- rather than looking at what's the draft, can we pull up -- 0000 ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, sorry. Excuse me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize, Mr. Leon, Commissioner. I'd just like to just make a note on the record or perhaps a small objection. Ms. Belton testified yesterday that -- on the mayor's deal, and it was her understanding that it was all completely fake news, I think, was the terminology she used. And as I understand it, Mr. Wilson is now testifying that this deal was sent to Ms. Belton as one of the convoy organizers and that they all agreed to it. I just note, in fairness to the witness, I don’t think that was put to her by the Commission, nor the convoy organizers or Freedom Corp. So I mean, we're all working very hard, herculean, and we're missing lots of things at times, just because of the pace, but I think this is a rather important point, that it's unfortunate we didn’t hear from Ms. Belton on that issue.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think at this stage, let's hear the evidence and maybe that’s a point that can be made later? But I'm sorry. You want to also involve yourself in this?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. I don’t think the issue is whether or not Ms. Belton's being impeached. Frankly, I don’t think it matters. So this Commission doesn’t need to make a finding of credibility of Ms. Belton, so I understand my friend's concern and he's turning to the rule of Browne v Dunn, but I don’t really even think it's a concern, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Okay.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
HRF00001285. And this is the Freedom Manifest that was -- I think there were -- you said there were about maybe 100 copies made up and distributed to the truckers?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. About 850 copies were printed. We decided to go old school, Gutenberg printing press. In fact, I took a little video and had forwarded it to Dean French so that he could see that progress was being made on the efforts and the plan to get the information out to the truckers. Chris Barber, Tamara, and others went out onto the streets and met with truckers, and the road captains handed these out. And Tamara even went out to Arnprior and Embrun to inspect them to make sure that they had sufficient capacity to take all the 75 percent of the vehicles and to meet with the owners of those lands to make sure they were comfortable with that many vehicles showing up in the coming days.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I'm not going to ask they be pulled up now, but just for the record, we then had the exchange of letters between the mayor and Ms. Lich, which we've seen. The mayor's letter is HRF00001264 and the -- and Ms. Lich's letter is HRF00001275. And can I now ask to bring up HRF00001323? And this is a document dated February 17, 2022, open letter to our premiers and to our elected and appointed officials. It's a long letter, but I take it that the idea of this was still part of the exit strategy to do something to make contact with government officials so that people could be satisfied that you'd done all you could do to that point; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, it is. And I think what we were hoping would happen is that the success that we felt we could achieve with the arrangement and the agreement with the mayor, and because if it was successful, we were going to have had the downtown cleared out by the Wednesday but for Wellington up to the Sir John A., and you know, a defined area -- which they actually in logistics meetings shored it up because of the issues about the hospital and so on access, and the truckers agreed to make it even a smaller area -- said it was focus the protest now on the federal government and then the federal government would be encouraged by the fact that the truckers proved to be honest brokers, and that would lead to a meeting with some federal ministers. There was not a strong desire to have a meeting with the prime minister. It was more with the ministers, and that we could agree on a process of formally presenting briefs and information and scientific information to support -- and comparative information, because Canada was anomaly at this time in terms of our mandates; the other G7 countries weren’t doing these things -- to try and persuade the government to review its policies.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And then we don’t have to bring it up, but in your statement, page 10 and 11, you outline your understanding of what happened in terms of the movement of the trucks outside from the residential area, either to leave or up to Wellington, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Well, I was directly involved, and on the Monday, and my text messages and my phone logs confirm it, my text messages with Sgt. Le, with the mayor's chief of staff and with the city manager. We -- the reports I was getting from the ground were that the police were not in a position, they were getting blocked at different phases by the police. They finally got some trucks moved. We were ready to move trucks again on the Tuesday. Chris had worked and others, Joe Janz and Ryan and Dale and others had gone out and worked hard to get a whole bunch of trucks ready to move on the Tuesday. Police completely blocked it. We now see all the bad communications and infighting that was going on. We didn't know that at the time, obviously, and then again, on the Wednesday. And the other thing is, we realized, when we discussed it and I listened to the road captains and to the Chris Barbers, is they felt that once the big trucks moved, there would be stragglers, but they wouldn't want to be alone, and that they would either leave or they may go and infill a little bit, but so we recognized that. And there was also discussion that if -- and this is controversial, but there was also discussion that if we get down to a few areas where everybody else has either gone up to Wellington, or gone out to the base camps, or gone home, and we have a few holdouts, that Freedom Corp. would no longer provide any supplies, fuel, or materials to those areas to incentivize them to follow the lead of everyone else who was leaving downtown.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. I see -- I've gone up for my hour-and-a-half, Commissioner. I have two more points to deal with, if I could.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. HRF00001298. This is a letter that you sent to Chief Bell stating your view on the powers that were -- the police were given under the Emergency Act.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you took issue with whether there was the power to prevent peaceful protesters from coming into Ottawa to protest.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct. And just to clarify, the letter's signed by Ms. Chipiuk, but I did review the letter, and we also had at least four or five other lawyers from the Justice Centre reviewing the same statutory regulatory instruments, and we had all reached the same conclusion that the description that the government officials and the police were using to describe the measures was not even close to what the Emergency Proclamation actually said, and that as long as you were not seeking to interfere with international trade, disrupt or interfere with critical infrastructure or engage in serious acts of violence against persons, you continued to have the right of political advocacy, protest and dissent. And so the labelling by the Police Chief and others that any Canadian citizen was no longer allowed to walk in downtown Ottawa or hold a sign in front of their Parliament is -- was not legally accurate and was against the Charter.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I think we've seen the video that's -- and you don't have to bring it up, HRF00000274, that you did with Mr. Barber to -- essentially giving that opinion and telling whoever saw the video that they could and should come to Ottawa and continue lawful protest.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had -- we were in the seventh-floor boardroom at the Sheraton. I'd just finished briefing the Board on the legal review that had been completed of the proclamations, and Mr. Barber turned to me and said, "Come over here. Sit on the arm of the chair. Let's do a Tik Tok." And it literally happened that quick.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And in making that Tik Tok video, was it your understanding that there was about to be an enforcement initiative by the police to remove people from the red zone?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn't know for sure. What I did know is that there was numerous times where information would come into the Operations Centre from various police sources that a raid was imminent and it happened many times, and then the raids either did occur in part, such as Coventry, or other evenings where they would go and take firewood and fuel or food from one of the blocks. But it did appear from the buildup we were seeing on the ground, it was obvious and the information we had about a number of -- I don't know, there's some Lansdowne Park or someplace had been set up as a processing centre, so it seemed that there is a shift occurring.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you have a concern that -- about the fact that if that was going to happen, you were suggesting to people to come back into the red zone and potentially be in danger when the enforcement action started?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, because I'm a Canadian and I never imagined that our government, our federal government would use that level of force against non-violent, peaceful Canadians.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And just a couple of final points, we heard Ms. Belton's evidence that her hotel bill had been paid by Mr. Berogot (ph)?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Bourgault.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Bourgault. Have you ever met Mr. Bourgault?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I met Joseph a number of times. He's an amazing human being and very concerned Canadian, but I have no knowledge of any bills he was paying.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Who paid your hotel bill?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Who would have paid my hotel bill? I'm pretty sure the first hotel bill went on my firm visa card, and then I was reimbursed by the Justice Centre. The Germain was on my visa card and was reimbursed. And then the Swiss was paid for, I believe, I don't know this with certainty, by Chris Garrah through Adopt A Trucker.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And do you have any other information about Mr. Bourgault about contributions he may have made to the Freedom Convoy in terms of how much or what for?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. I do know that he helped pay for some meeting rooms. I don't think -- when Mr. Marazzo and Mr. Bulford were holding their press conferences at the Lord Elgin, I don't think he paid for that, but he might have. And it was mostly -- the only firsthand knowledge I have was hotel rooms.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then there's two other documents that I want to ask you about. The first one is HRF000000 -- just let me get it here -- 83. And this was a press release February 17, 2022, from the Freedom Convoy indicating that they did not support any of the comments being made by Mr. King. I may have asked you this, but had you met Mr. King?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I knew of Mr. King prior -- over a year prior to going to Ottawa. He had a court matter in Red Deer where he was all over social media saying that he's found this magic recipe for defeating all government laws, and I researched it, read the court's decision, and it was clear he was misunderstanding how the law works. So I knew of him from then and I knew that he was a very loud voice. When I found out that he was here, I told him I was -- I told the clients I wasn't prepared to be in the same room with him. There was one instance where he was brought into a room, and I immediately requested that he leave. The reason was that I had heard of his language at times, and maybe it was unfair to him, maybe I was duped by the media. I don't know, but there was inuendo of violence, and it was completely unacceptable to me, but more importantly, Ms. Lich. Because the Legacy media was repeating it so many times and it was needing to be explained so many times, the Board made the decision to issue this press release. This is the only press release of this nature that was issued where they identified a person and made it clear that they did not agree with, as it says, "He does not speak for us. We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And then the final document HRS000000513 page 3. I just wanted to ask you about this. This is one of your, I believe, text messages right there. If you can roll it up a little bit more. Right there. I believe this is -- this is dated at the top February 9th. Did you appear on FOX News?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how did that come about?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I received on a daily basis 10, 20 or more media requests. Everyone from the New York Times, Washington Post, BBC, France 24, Belgium, Caribbea, Japan and every Canadian news outlet. I did agree to do one interview and I agreed to go on FOX with Premier Peckford.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that’s Premier Peckford on the right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions. And thank you, Commissioner, for the extra time.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re pretty close to the time for the morning break so I’m going to take a 15 minute break and we’ll come back and start with our list of cross-examinations.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:16 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:34a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. A l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
MR. KEITH WILSON, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The first up is for the Government of Canada
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBERT MacKINNON
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Good morning. I’m Robert MacKinnon for the Government of Canada counsel.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Wilson, I just want to take you to a point that you made at the end of your testimony with Commission Counsel. I don't know that we have to turn up the document, but it was in reference to an email of February 12th that you had sent. And the line in there that I just want to clarify is where you say, "We are trying to block Trudeau from having the jurisdiction to cause police to use the new emergency powers against the truckers and to allow the truckers to stay here in Ottawa as long as it takes." (As read) Do you remember that line?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think you misspoke. I think you meant to say "justification." Does it say jurisdiction?
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Oh, having the -- okay, sorry, justification. Good memory. So is that not a reference to the Declaration of Emergency that was made the day before by the Ontario Premiere?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
It does not speak into the future. It says to use the new emergency powers, which just came into effect the day before.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was the -- we had -- so I had lawyers with me on the ground. I also had teams of lawyers that were back at their normal place of business. When an issue would arise, I would delegate it out. I would say, "Okay, this team in Toronto, I want you to review this." We even prepared a draft judicial review application for the -- both the City's Emergency Proclamation and the Ottawa -- or, sorry, the provincial government one. Media assessment is what does this change? What impact does it have on the rights of the people on the ground? And we concluded that it was largely benign.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. What I'm saying is that -- those words refer to the new emergency power in the present tense. The Declaration from the Federal Government came on the 14th. It was two days before.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I can help you by telling you what was in my mind. And our concern was, I believe that it was early in the previous week -- by early I mean the Tuesday, and if not Tuesday, the Wednesday for certain, that we started hearing rumours that the Federal Government was contemplating invoking the Federal Emergencies Act. So all of the references in any of the communications that you have at that time would be, unless there's one that's more specific, about that. There was -- we weren't concerned about the -- either the civic one, nor the provincial one.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Can you point me to one document which documents what you're just telling us now?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, first of all, this was not a normal file.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Right. But you've managed to paper ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I finish my ---
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Oh, sorry, okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- can I finish my answer, please, sir? This was not a normal file. You did not -- I did not have opportunity to document things. And I'm telling you under oath that at no time was the -- either the Ottawa State of Emergency Declaration, nor the Ontario State of Declaration a matter of concern for me and the other lawyers with me. We were very concerned about the potential and the rumours we were hearing for the Federal Government to invoke the Federal Emergencies Act.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Who told you the Federal Government was considering using the Emergencies Act? Who told you that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can't remember the specific individual, but I do remember the source that they relayed, and they advised that they had heard from some MPs that there was active discussion over at the Parliament about the Prime Minister considering using the Emergencies Act. And it was -- so MPs, some MPs had shared with people involved in the convoy and they reported that to me.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Do you have any document you can refer this Commission to today?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I might, but I can't recall any offhand.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And you can't recall any offhand. You can't recall a description of the document or anything like that right now?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, that's correct.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
All right. I'd like to continue with just confirming some statements from your witness summary. You'd agree that there was a broad array of groups that were part of this convoy?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And you subdivided them into three groups: those who came to support the movement, those who came to take it over ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
--- and those who came to take a piece of the $10 million.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was my assessment. Probably I reached that conclusion in my mind within, I would say, three to five days of being here. I'd had sufficient interactions and repeated interactions with different individuals from different groups that that was the pattern that I felt was present.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And you also have said that the convoy attracted a lot of strange people.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And in those people you mention the coven of witches?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's what they called themselves and they were doing weird séance things and burning things in the lobby.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And conspiracy groups like Diagolon ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
--- QAnon? Yes?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, you bet.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. So it not only consisted of a broad array of groups but it attracted other strange groups that at least how you've described them; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Like moths to a flame.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So you'd agree that some of these individuals, we've heard a little bit already, may have tried to hijack the message or even try and control, perhaps, parts of the convoy group; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, and it was a constant effort by Ms. Lich and Mr. Barber and others to fend them off, so to speak. And I do recall reading documents in the record where CSIS and the RCMP had also intercepted communications and reached the same conclusion, that there was a concerted effort by the mainstream group to resist these hangers ons.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And Mr. Barber testified yesterday that he could not control truckers generally. They're very independently minded, and certainly not the groups that were coming. Would you agree with that statement?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct. Yes, I would agree.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And there's a -- Mr. Ero's interview summary that you've been taken to a little bit, a reference to, or at least a quote that you supposedly mention concerning Taking Back our Freedoms group?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Did you refer to them as "bad actors"?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't think I would have referred to -- no, I don't know that I would have referred to them as bad actors.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. He says you did.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And bad actors and manipulators he says.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would have characterized without a doubt some of the individuals involved with that group as being manipulative, a hundred percent.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So even within your group, the convoy group and the leadership that you've mentioned, there were, would you say, sort of divisions or factions I would say?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely. It was an incredibly diverse, dynamic -- remember, that if you walked into the Operation Centre at any given moment and said how many people in this room knew one another before January 15th, and the only 2 people would put up their hands would be Chris Garrah and Chad Eros. These people all came together for the first time.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
All right. And you mentioned the negotiations with the City of Ottawa in the days leading up to February 14th?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
To move the trucks out of residential neighbourhoods to take at least a bit of a valve to some of the temperature that had been raised with all the complaints and issues that arose from that. That's correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and the tensions with -- -
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- the police and the political tensions. It was time to deescalate and reduce the footprint and relieve the pressure.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
But that was never intended to rid the city core of the gridlock of 30-ton trucks or resolve the grievances of all the various protesting groups.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was no gridlock. I've described how I was able to travel freely.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Well, let's just say, you're not saying that it was empty of 30-ton trucks sitting in front of Wellington?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, the idea was to concentrate, and this was discussed in the negotiations with the Mayor. The Mayor's message that I received through Mr. French was that he recognized that the grievance -- I think it's even in his letter, if I'm not mistaken -- that was with the Federal Government primarily was the triggering event, the federal mandates that you've heard about.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
But your deal ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I just -- sorry, sir, I haven't finished and I'm just -- that was slowing down because I -- Commissioner has reminded me that I'm speaking too fast. So it was recognized that trucks would remain on Wellington. And to be clear, there was no understanding that it would be a grant of immunity. It was recognized that at any time after those trucks repositioned, the police could come and move them out. It was recognized that there would be an interference in the flow of traffic on Wellington but I note, because I was up there the other day, it’s blocked today, this very moment, by government barricades.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
I’m just getting to the point that the deal was never intended to resolve all these grievances and protests and to get rid of the trucks from the city core; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it was absolutely to remove the pressure on the downtown residents and business, focus the attention on the grievance with the federal government, build from the success of de-escalation and negotiation to incentive and encourage the federal government to come to the table, open up a dialogue and set a pretext for the truckers to go home.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
How does -- well, would you be surprised that the mayor would say that the deal wasto release some of the tension from the neighbourhoods. It did nothing to deal with the core issue of getting rid of the trucks in front of Wellington.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know. Do you want me to repeat my answer a third time?
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
No, I don’t need -- I don’t need that, but I’ve got your answer. So you don’t agree that this was -- this deal was intended to resolve all these issues and gridlock on Wellington?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Complex problems require complex solutions. Complex solutions require phasing.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So you had faith?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had faith. I had confidence of the good will of the -- of -- look ---
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Do we have an agreement, a written agreement that said they would move?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have been able to resolve at least more than 90 percent of all the litigation files I’ve been involved in by opening up dialogue between the parties and I remained optimistic that through applying those skills and those tactics that we could have had a peaceful resolution and a respectful Canadian dialogues about important policy issues.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Who were you representing at the negotiations? Were you representing the leadership that you mentioned, the directors of that company, the non-profit company, the Freedom 2022, the President, Tamara Lich, and the Vice President, Chris Barber, and the treasurer, Chad Eros? Beyond those people, who were your clients?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You’ve described them. That’s accurate.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So you were not acting on behalf of all the truckers?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So you had faith?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had faith and my faith in the same way -- I would have quit practicing law, sir, a long time ago if I didn’t have faith in the ability of people having civil and respectful discussions to resolve disputes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
But the objective of that agreement was to move 25 percent more trucks into the Wellington Street area, so it doesn’t do anything to relieve that congestion.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It -- fair, but we’ve already established, sir, that the road’s blocked. So if -- I’m not sure if your concern is about the presence of trucks and Canadians or whether your concern is about the road being blocked. It can’t be the road being blocked because it’s still blocked to this day by the government.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
You have heard or you’re evidence given at this inquiry of the racial slurs, the intimidation ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
--- the threats against Ottawa residents and public officials, and the blaring high- decibel horns at all times of day and night during these demonstrations in Ottawa; you’re aware of that evidence, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m aware of the allegations - --
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and I’m also aware of what I experienced, which was Canadians, particularly immigrants of all ethnic backgrounds, coming together in a very peaceful, respectful way with deep concern about what the federal government and governments were doing to their rights and freedoms.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
I’m just talking about those particular allegations right now, okay?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
As a lawyer, you would agree that those are not protected as a form of free speech or action under the Charter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I don’t know that I’d agree with that. I’d need -- you have to be very contextual- specific. Our free speech rights are very broad and just to say that someone made some vague allegation of racism is not enough for me or anyone else to make a reasoned conclusion.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
You agree, hate speech has been codified in the Criminal Code, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, and I find the Prime Minister’s hate speech towards unvaccinated people and saying, “How do we deal with these people,” deeply troubling.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Right. So you don’t agree, then, that threats against the life of somebody is not a protected form of speech under the Charter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not believe that anyone, either morally or legally, should be threatening anyone else’s life and I have received many death threats myself since representing the Freedom Convoy.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So we agree that that’s not protected, right? Death ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
--- threats are not protected?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Nor is speech that is linked to demean, to an extent, a particular group of people in a serious way? Hate speech ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sir, I’m going to have to object at this time. My friend is entirely mischaracterizing the Law of Section 2(b) of the Charter and the decisions in respect to that. In fact, the Supreme Court of Canada, of course, has held that hate speech, other than inciting violence, is actually protected by Section 2(b) of the Charter. And so I would ask that my friend, essentially, cease putting errors of law to the witness on public television, sir.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
I am just asking for his view as a lawyer. But I don’t have to continue. I have other questions, Your Honour.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, I hate to interrupt the proceedings but I’ve received an email communication from our certified transcriptionists asking if parties, when they’re making objections from the floor to please state their name first. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think this is proper cross-examination so I’m not -- go ahead.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So you’d agree, trucks do not have Charter rights?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, obviously.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Good. And you don’t have the right to park somewhere for three weeks wherever you want whenever you want?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was asked many times every day by truckers when they recognized me, and they would say, “Mr. Wilson, am I allowed to have my truck here?” And if they were parked in the parking lane, I would say, “It depends. What does the sign say about how long you can park? You might get a ticket.” If they were parked in a driving lane, I had the same response to all of them, which was, “You tell me this. If you were to stop your truck in the number 2 lane on the 401, then get out and leave it, what would happen?” And they would say, “The OPP would come, they would ticket it, and they would tow it away.” I said -- I would say to them, “You’re in the exact same situation here. No, you cannot lawfully park your truck there.” There is an interesting argument because they were told to park there by the police as to whether they might have an officially induced error defence, but that was the answer that I would give them.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You’d agree, it’s not a protected right under the Charter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Of course.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And neither is blaring high-decibel horns a protected form of free speech or action under the Charter?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, there was -- and I’m not trying to be cute about this but you’re asking me a very nuanced question because Charter rights, especially when you get into freedom of expression, are nuanced, is there were times where these dance parties on the weekend -- and I said this, and it’s in the transcript when I was before Justice McLean, because we did have a discussion about whether there was an artistic element -- and the trucks would start -- with the different frequency of their horns would start doing dance beats, so there was that. But it’s clear Ms. Lich and Mr. Barber were clear that they did not want the horns. Before the injunction -- the week before the injunction, the truckers agreed amongst themselves to have a quiet time from 8:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. because they wanted to get sleep, too. The injunction allowed that to be expanded.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Well, people weren’t dancing to these horns that were going all hours of the day and night. You’ve heard the evidence from the residents?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I witnessed people dancing a lot to the horns with the music. I’m sorry, sir, that’s what I saw. I’m under oath.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Yes, at one in the morning, three in the morning?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And -- okay. I won’t go in ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn’t on the street at three in morning so I can’t say but I was at least once or twice leaving meetings at one in the morning.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
I’ve got your perspective. Do you recall a second press conference that you gave with others on February 6th? So this one, you were more organized. If I could up Document COM, I think it's five zeroes, 856. It's a transcript of that. There, you attended Ms. Lich, Mr. Bulford, Mr. Dichter, and Tom Quiggin -- is that how you pronounce his name?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Do you recall that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that was a press conference that Mr. Dichter has asked that was primarily focused on Bitcoin. It was in the Sheraton Hotel and I and Ms. Lich were asked to come to attend the first part of it to provide a legal update and an operational update on where things were at.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So these were people who are all part of your group; is that right, so Tom Quiggin, Mr. Dichter, Mr. Bulford, Ms. Lich, that they're all part of your convoy group leadership, would you say, or part of your working group?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They're part of the Freedom Convoy. That’s about as far as I'd be prepared to go.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And you worked together?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I worked with lots of people every day on a wide variety of issues.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And Tom Quiggin is an ex- military intelligence officer, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s my understanding.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And he worked in the operation centre; is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was mostly -- I almost never saw him in the operation centre at the Swiss. He was almost always at the ARC and he was doing these, on is own initiative, these daily situation briefs. They were not reviewed by anybody. In fact, I still haven't even read most of them. We had no time to even read them and he was circulating them to the truckers.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Now -- so he did write daily intelligence reports and special intelligence reports on certain events, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s my understanding, yes, and I've read some of them since preparing for this.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
And do you place credence in his assessments?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn’t.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Are you -- okay. Well, we could take you to who he is first. Page 12 of this document where it has his -- Tom Quiggin's -- if you go down to line 12 - - so are we on the right -- page 12 -- I've got page 12 here. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah. So it says -- he describes himself: "I'm ex-military intelligence. I also worked for the RCMP for six years in national security, the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team. I'm one of the few court experts in the country on terrorism and I'm a declared court expert both in criminal court, which is to say Ontario Superior Court, as well as the federal court." Do you see that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. I've since reviewed his CV and confirmed these things to be true.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And he did put out reports every day, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know if it was every day. I -- it was a few days in that I learned that these things were occurring. I think they were distributed to the block captains, if I'm not mistaken, in the morning.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. So ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm going to have to get to point quite quickly. You're already over time.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Oh, okay. My -- well, I'll take you to one of the threat assessments right now, all right, one of the daily assessments. It's Document HRF00000018. So you'll agree that there were people attracted to the convoy, not only strange, but who had violent tendencies, if you could look here. So this is on February 3rd. This is the day I think you arrive. Here, the assessment is: "Freedom Convoy 2022 assess that potentially violent protestors may arrive in Ottawa to vandalize property. Following that, they will then attempt to blame convoy members for the violent actions. The protestors are likely to arrive in Ottawa either late Wednesday or Thursday. The violent actions are likely intended for Thursday and Friday. The actions from the protestors are likely to consist of harassment of citizens and damage to vehicles and properties." And then they describe how they're going to be dressed. Do you see that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. I recall that. In fact, we were -- received a separate briefing and this actually was raised by GoFundMe executives and their legal team on our call on the Thursday. And it was Antifa. They had previously come in on occasion and knifed trucks, cut the air lines, stabbed -- knifed tires, and they had announced on social media, I was told, the Antifa group, that they were going to be coming in a larger numbered force and trying to do more damage to the trucks.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So if I might ask one more question, Mr. Commissioner, just on -- it's on a document that the transcript, if you could pull up the transcript again, it's page 14. It has to do with tow trucks, an issue that everybody seems to have an opinion on. So this is Tom Quiggin again in the interview. That’s right. So he says concerning tow trucks: "The short answer is tow truck companies right across the country, in Alberta, Ontario, whatever have either politely refused requests from the government to assist, or not so politely refused requests for assistance." And if you turn over the paqe -- or sorry, go down to the bottom of that page first: "But what it shows is, the federal government in Ottawa is reaching all the way down to Buffalo, New York, trying to find a tow truck, and they can't get one because the --- " Turn over the page. "--- trucking industry is somewhat of a brotherhood, much like the military, much like the police, and we do kind of all know each other, and no tow truck company that wants to be in business for more than a week after this is going to help out." And it goes down a couple more paragraphs. "So what's actually happening now, we have a network of tow truck operators who are talking to each other to see who's being called and who's not. Short answer is they're having a hard time getting tow trucks." So was the convoy actively trying to prevent the use of tow trucks?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, there was never any of the rooms I was in -- and I was usually with the leadership at all times -- any effort, attempt, or even discussion about reaching out to any tow companies to discourage them, and we know from the evidence from the police in the previous days of this inquiry that in fact, the governments were able to get tow trucks.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
So that contradicts what Mr. Quiggin just said in his press conference on February 6th.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And corroborates my evidence that sometimes I agreed with him and sometimes I didn’t.
Robert MacKinnon, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. Commissioner, I'm going to -- I don't think I'll have any difficulty finishing within time. I'd just like to advise City of Ottawa has offered their time to me in the event I get close. Mr. Wilson, I just have a few questions for you on your testimony from this morning. First is with respect to your flight to Ottawa, how you got here.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's a news report that that was on a charter flight operated by Northern Air Charter; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so. I think that’s the name of the company.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And apparently that company is now under investigation by Transport Canada for carrying unvaccinated people on that flight. Are you aware of that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was the allegation by CTV, and my understanding is an investigation was commenced but no action was taken.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And who originally offered to pay for the flight? Was that Mr. Bourgault?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not, as I testified earlier, entirely clear on who was offering. I don't remember it to be Bourgault. It might have been Take Back our Freedoms. I believe there was a couple of people, and as I explained, we had this pattern where people would come forward and say, "Oh, we'll look after this, we'll look after that," and it didn’t happen. There was some uncertainty as to whether or not we were even going to be allowed to get on the plane. But the Justice Centre said, "This is too important. Get on the plane. We'll sort this out later."
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, before you got on the plane, I understand from the interview summary of Mr. Eros that there was a virtual meeting or Zoom meeting on or about January 31st where there was yourself, Andre Memauri, Brian Peckford, Tamara Lich, himself, and Joseph Bourgault. Do you recall that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was on the evening of the 1st. It was -- the reception they had in the hotel was terrible, terrible. They only heard probably a third of what we talked about. Mr. Bourgault was not on that. There was a doctor with a British accent, a very nice man. I can’t remember his name. And Mr. Peckford was most definitely not on that call. hours is probably some other conversation that we had. Do you see that?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was not?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Was not.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was there another virtual call with Mr. Bourgault and yourself and Mr. Eros?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have never had a virtual call at any time in my life involving Mr. Eros and Mr. Bourgault ever.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. When you arrived in Ottawa you testified that it was apparent to you that Ms. Lich really was the leader of this movement. You said that it seemed that people listened to her. She seemed to command a lot of respect, and so forth. That’s right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And even if you walked the streets when we were moving from one location to another, it was remarkable, the people that would come up and stop her and politely ask if they could have a hug. And the tears would just start to flow and often I was standing behind her and I would hear what these incredibly tragic stories that these people would share, and the grown men, and about how they had lost children to suicide. They’d lost their businesses, they’d lost their marriage. And it was Tamara and seeing what Tamara was doing that had given them hope. Hope.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I guess, was it also in part because people new that she had control over the $10 million from GoFundMe? That’s why she was the leader?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Tamara figured out something the day before I did. And I remember we got -- it was my fault. I thought someone was coming up to hug her. We were leaving the Westin Hotel after coming out of the meeting with Dean French on the Friday night when he had presented the Mayor’s proposal. I thought it was someone wanting a hug. And it turned out it was a TV crew from Berlin TV, from Germany. And I felt bad because we tried to protect Tamara from that. But when they asked her about the 10 million, she responded by saying, “The money is symbolism. The money is symbolism.” It was -- and if you look at how much money actually got to the truckers and how much was actually returned to the donors, the vast majority ended up back at the donors and as you know very well, otherwise it’s in the escrow fund under court supervision partly over which you must receive notice before anything can happen to it. So the money was symbolism in Tamara’s view and I think she’s right. It was a way for Canadians to demonstrate and add their voice to what they thought the convoy stood for which was holding the government to account and advocating for respect for our Charter, return to the rule of law.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I wasn’t going to ask a question on this but I couldn’t help when I heard your testimony about the horn injunction. You testified that you advised your clients that the horns were a problem and that you expected that the injunction would be granted. And you were asked a couple of times by Commission counsel about whether your clients opposed the injunction. Just to be clear, your clients opposed that injunction, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you. I honestly can tell you, Mr. Champ, and as you know, one of the things that happens to me when I come to Ottawa, I meet you. And I mean that in respectful way. You've been very professional in your dealings and I thank you. I actually -- as I was asked that question I couldn’t remember whether I actively opposed. So if that’s your memory, I agree that I probably did do, as lawyers do, oppose. But I do -- what I remember more clearly is advising my clients that there was no way that the court was not going to grant that injunction.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You had argued that the horns were not irreparable harm and Ms. Lee should wear earplugs. Do you remember -- to sleep. Do you remember those arguments?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t but I have confidence in you; if that’s your memory, then I’ll accept that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I won’t go further down the road of the different arguments that were made. But then on the continuation of the injunction a week later, I remember that that became a bargaining point with the City? You were offering to the City that perhaps your clients wouldn’t oppose the continuation of Ms. Lee’s horn injunction if they did certain things; is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct. And my memory, I'm hoping, is correct that you recall we did not oppose that?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that’s correct. You did not oppose the second one. I want to ask you some questions about dealings with the police. Now, you've testified that you were hearing at times that there were police raids imminent at different times during the protest and we did hear some evidence from the police tht there were raids planned at times but that then were aborted. So it sounds like you might have had some solid intelligence on that; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, actually we thought we did. But after having observed the proceedings since the last few weeks, we had no idea of the level of dysfunction of in-- fighting that was going on. We assumed that when information filtered in to the Operations Centre, that a raid was going to occur at nine o'clock that night at this location, that it was real. And then when it didn’t happen, the assumption was it was a test, not that there was something happening where different inspectors and forces were in conflict about a plan. We did not -- that was all new revelations through this Inquiry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, those new revelations, I think, that’s one issue your clients and my clients can agree on for sure. Now, but you were getting information from sympathetic police; is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is correct.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Throughout?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. There was -- the remarkable thing was that all these different individuals who had experienced -- you know, I was never prior to this a big believer -- a huge -- I didn’t think they were a bad idea -- about mission statements. It was remarkable how efficient everybody worked because they all had the same mission statement that they had formulated deep to the core of their being. It was that they felt the country was badly off track, that their families and their communities were being harmed. And this was their opportunity to try and make a difference. So we had former police officers, miliary, Navy, CSIS, airline pilots, doctors, nurses, teachers, carpenters, chiropractors. The whole breadth of society was there and the cream just rose and they organically came together during the time, and those who were getting things done -- there was very little in-fighting. There was a lot of people coming in that we were trying to manage but it was really remarkable, the organic way in which the enterprise ran.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that if people could cook, they were cooking? If they were IT people they were helping you with that? If they were communications people ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Well, then I ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- they were helping you with that.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- still remember ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- one really illustrative example was in the operations centre mid-morning, super cold outside, you know. Some people are -- a big huge square table, people working, people standing in groups, people looking at things on the board. And then someone came in and said, “Some situation is occurring at Albert and Kent” or wherever it was and everybody stopped for a minute. No one said what needed to be done. Two people got up, threw their coats on, grabbed their toques, and they were gone. And then everybody carried on. It was so efficient that there was no point even discussing what needed to be done and who was going to be doing it. Once the information came in then the people who knew they were best suited were dealing with it, did. It was spectacular to watch. That’s why I now believe mission statement are very important.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, on some of the things that people were doing cooperatively with the convoy, we heard from both Ms. Belton and Mr. Barber about the distribution of cash to truckers. You were -- you know that that was going on, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I observed it, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You observed it? And they were trying to keep track of how much cash was being put in each envelope before it was being distributed?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, that was really Chad Eros’s department and he has given interviews that are online where he describes -- Chris Carson’s interview where he describes the processes that he put in place. But I did observe cash being counted. My understanding was it was coming from the stage and from other places and being put into envelopes and then teams would go out and distribute it to the truckers.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Eros, he was one of the directors of Freedom Corp, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was not only a director; he was the treasurer and he was a paid accountant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So he was gathering or trying to keep track of that money on behalf of Freedom Corp, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would hope so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so as an advisor to Freedom Corp at that time, you were aware that they were managing this distribution of funds and cash out to the truckers?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And he had estimated that it seemed that around $20,000 per day was being raised through cash and e-transfers. Do you have any reason to dispute that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think the first time I saw cash would have been probably around -- I’m just trying to visualize the calendar here. Probably around the 11th or -- 11th maybe? Yeah. And that weekend, the 12th, and be -- that was after the provincial government in Ontario, the Attorney General, issued the seizure order that you’re familiar with, with respect to GiveSendGo funds. And much like what you saw happen with -- when the police said, “No more fuel” to “If you bring fuel to downtown, you’re going to be charged with counselling mischief” or something, the next day Ottawa residents and other one -- everyone showed up with gas cans; it was a “I am Spartacus” moment. And what I observed was people were so determined to support the truckers that, because the GoFundMe got shut down, and now the GiveSendGo was being frozen, they weren’t going to let that discourage them. I heard anecdotal stories from many truckers, where they would get the tap on the door and someone would be there with their family and give them $20, or $100, or $1,000, or $5,000.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So in your statement you say that some people were at the protest for money. Is -- getting all of this cash, do you think that was an incentive for the truckers to stay?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not the vast majority because I just -- that wasn’t why they were there. There was always -- there’s always opportunistic people that are more focused on money than others of us. That all I meant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And those trucks -- 300 to 400 semi tractor-trailers operating 24 hours, or idling 24 hours a day required of diesel fuel; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not as much as if they’re pulling a load.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. But who was paying for all of that fuel; the big trucks, that fuel at Coventry?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know there’s -- we put in to -- well, in your action with the Mareva injunction, there’s details on that in the affidavits. But I also know that I was told by a businessman who wanted to donate fuel that he had contact -- or had his office contact three different fuel suppliers in the bulk of suppliers, and he wanted them -- he wanted to pay for a shipment of fuel from each of them. They declined because they said the best they could do was put him on a waiting list. They had so many people phoning from across the country to pay for fuel to be delivered downtown that they actually didn’t want his money and they said all they could do is put him on a waiting list.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So just a couple of last points, Mr. Wilson, just about some of the people who you’re involved with. Pat King, you testified that you knew him from about a year before the convoy protest, is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, like I wasn’t at his house or anything.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. He had gone on this highly misinformed rant on social media, and he was attacking a reporter and so I -- it’s always dangerous on Twitter, I jumped in and explained the law and showed the pleadings so -- to show where he was misunderstanding how the law worked, and he hadn’t set this big precedent. So I had -- but he’s a loud voice, like Chris Sky.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So I was aware of it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Sky’s from Ontario, generally speaking, but Mr. King is from Alberta like yourself; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, Mr. Sky made his way across the country a few times.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, I’m aware of that. But Mr. King, he is in Alberta, so you did have some interactions with him?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
You know, there’s four million people in Alberta, right?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but I assume you don’t have interactions with all of them. I’m asking about Mr. King, not all four million ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- the first time I was in physical presence of Mr. King was when he showed up in a boardroom in Ottawa during the protest, and it was about two or three days in and I immediately instructed him to be -- to leave the room; not him, I told the people around he’s got to go. The only other direct interaction I had with him was on Twitter in the previous -- about 18 months prior to that where he was misunderstanding a ruling by a court judge.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. King -- my understanding, he was a supporter of Western separatism, and so forth, Wexit, and those kinds of movements; were you aware of that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wasn’t aware of that. It wouldn’t surprise me, but I wasn’t aware of that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were you involved in those movements; Western separatism, Wexit?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was never -- I’ve never formally been involved in those movements. I have been very concerned about the merits and the fairness of our Confederation. But seeing, as you’re heard, and I saw it myself, a Quebecer with a Quebec flag running towards an Albertan with a cowboy hat and an Alberta flag, and embracing; seeing a Quebecer trucker, who could not speak any English, with a Cana -- a trucker from elsewhere in Canada, I don’t know where he was from, who couldn’t speak any French, and they were using Google Translate in a Tim Horton’s to communicate, and they were laughing and getting along, it restored my faith in the future of our country.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, just the last person I want to ask you about, while you’re talking about French, Mr. Dean French. Mr. French called you a patriot, is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that’s in the text message, yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, he supported the movement wholeheartedly, did he not?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s clear I -- you’d have to ask him, but it was clear to me that he -- that he also had concerns about government overreach, and that the truckers were protesting that.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I thought I understood from your text that Mr. French, he’s the one that arranged that interview with you and Fox News, is that right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, but I also received phone calls from Fox News, I received emails from Fox News; they were all about the same time. I mean, that’s how these guys work; ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- when they really want to get somebody, they reach out to everybody they can. I don’t know that it was because of Dean that I got it; it might have been. But I had emails and phone calls from Fox News, independent of those, just like I had contacted -- or had been contacted by the New York Times and the Washington Post, and everybody else.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But he was assisting you?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He was -- he -- I wouldn’t say he was assisting me. It was something he did on his initiative; I think he thought I would be a good interview.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I was surprised to see you on legacy media like Fox News, by the way.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, you know, I guess we all get surprises.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This last piece, did Mr. French ever indicate to you whether he had had any communications with Premier Ford, about his views about the protest?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He never did, but my clear sense was -- I’m not very familiar with the goings on in Ontario politics, but I had a general sense -- I think I might have Googled him, and I think I got a sense there was some estrangement or some falling out between him and the Premier, but I ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just wondered if he ever communicated anything like that to you.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, he never brought up -- the only time he would have made a reference to the Premier was -- oh, like the whole Twitter account thing, because we had the problem with BJ Dichter logging in to Tamara’s Twitter account and sending out that one Tweet, and he said, “Multiple people have access to this, right?” And I said, “Yeah,” and he explained to me that when he was Chief of Staff to the Premier, they had a rule; three people had access to the Premier’s Twitter account, but two of them had to agree to a Tweet; no one person. And I said, “Yeah, it would’ve been nice to have known that.”
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just on that, though, that Ms. Lich also put out a livestream on Facebook, saying she wasn’t supporting the deal that night.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s not true.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s not true? Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And next is the City of Ottawa. Am I to take it your -- you’ve no questions?
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
That is correct, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon, Mr. Wilson. My name is Jessica Barrow, and I’m counsel for the Ottawa Police Service. I just have a couple of points I want to walk through with you. So, first of all, I want to make sure that the record is very clear about who you do represent and who you do not represent. So as the representative for Freedom Corp., you represent only those organizers that I believe you listed earlier in relation to Freedom Corp., and not other participants in the convoy; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so, specifically, you do not represent Pat King or James Bauder?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree with me that both Pat King and James Bauder were espousing views that your clients disagreed with; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At times, yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not universally, but some of their messages they did not agree with.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And we saw specific evidence of them kind of rejecting the views of Pat King and James Bauder; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, James Bauder -- there was a number of times where they were preparing a press release to distance from the MoU, or they were going to add it to a paragraph of a letter. But if you’ve ever drafted by committee, you know that everybody wants their piece, and certain things get left out. But I think they made it pretty clear that they did not support the MoU, and nor did they support, and they were very concerned about, any inuendo of violence from Mr. King.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. So speaking of violence, you indicated that at the time you sort of advertised on TikTok that people should come to this city. It was your view that -- that that was because it was a lawful and peaceful protest in Ottawa; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, and it was more than that because one of the things that I -- I mean, I’m a lawyer but I’m also a dad, and my wife and I have four kids, and it was remarkable to me, meeting many of the families with younger children -- I mean five, six up to 12, 14 -- and the amazement on their face. They’re interacting with all these different truckers of every ethnic background and other Canadians and the excitement and the pride was really historic and I commended those parents for having their children learn from this and participate and experience it firsthand. It was very safe. I never imagined that the police would use the level of violence that they did.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So you were aware, however, that -- and there were multiple warning to that effect -- that arrests were going to be taking place very shortly; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The warnings really accelerated on the Thursday. And when I did the -- when Mr. Barber asked me to do his TikTok, that was on the Wednesday.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so when you’re speaking of peacefulness and lawfulness, I take it you’re not referring to those individuals that were charged with criminal offences prior to that date in relation to violence, or threats, or weapons?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m not following your question. What do you mean?
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So I believe you’ve seen the institutional report from the Ottawa Police Service. It’s been part of -- made part of the evidence.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I’ve only had a chance to skim through parts of it.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And would you disagree with me that multiple charges were laid prior to that TikTok video in relation to criminal offences that related to violence of threatening behaviour or weapons?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do know that the statistics were clear that the crime rate had gone down. I do know that the -- because of some of the former police, paramedics, emergency services people that were in the operations centre explained to me what happens in Ottawa after, I think it’s called, Bluesfest and the amount of assaults and violence that - - and even on Canada Days, the amount of assaults and violence they said -- they told me, having attended and participated and be on duty on those events, they had never seen this number of people come into the downtown core and with this level of safety and absence of violence, so that’s what I knew.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay, but my specific question was, when you’re referring to a “peaceful protest”, I take it you’re not referring to the people who were engaged in criminal behaviour that was obviously deemed not to be peaceful?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I mean it’s a peaceful protest. Were there some people within a large crowd of five, or eight, or 10,000 people, as there were on the weekends, that engaged in criminality? That’s called normal.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I’m going to move onto the deal with city officials. We’ve heard quite a bit of testimony about that and I think it’s clear that your understanding of the deal always was that some trucks would move onto Wellington -- and I think your evidence was around 25 percent -- and then the rest would leave the city core; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. I want to bring you to HRF00000513 at page 52. And just for your reference, these are the text message between you and Mr. French.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And actually, could we go to page 59? I apologize, Mr. Clerk. And so we just heard very briefly from you in relation to the Tweet that went out -- I think if you scroll down a little bit -- and that’s the Tweet that’s being referenced, right? This is an article about the Tweet where it comes from Tamara’s account that it’s a denial of the deal; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so regardless of who ultimately authored the Tweet, it was coming from Ms. Lich’s Twitter account; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Mr. Dichter has confirmed that he was the one who did it.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But it -- in terms of how the public received it ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- it came from Ms. Lich’s account, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And once we found out, Ms. Chipiuk and I got to the bottom of it in that Mr. Dichter acknowledged that he had done his own Tweet, and then he logged out and logged back in as her and then retweeted with a quote that said it was him. We said, “You’ve got to fix this and you have to fix it fast,” because I have an email from him where he agreed to -- confirmed his consent, “Good to go,” so he was the one -- we were trying to think of wording that could go out to confirm the deal was still going ahead and he decided that he would play the Tweet as though the reporter had made a mistake and I think he said something like, “Nice try, so and so. We were talking about the federal mandates. The deal to move trucks tomorrow is going ahead.”
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Can we just scroll down a little bit please?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if you keep going down - --
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think you just passed it.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No, I want to -- I think if we keep going down -- sorry, right there, yeah. So this is Dean French saying: "It was posted two hours ago and no correction yet." So it does take some time, right, for the Tweet to get corrected? I recognize there may have been some inner workings going on but it takes at least a few hours for that get correct; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Can you ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can’t dispute that. I can’t remember -- I know that we were able to correct it around -- it was either 10:58 p.m. or 11:02 p.m. Dean had strongly recommended that we correct it, get to the bottom of it, figure out what happened, correct it in advance of the 11 o’clock news hour shows and I moved as quickly as I could to get to the bottom of it because I was completely blindsided by it.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And there is -- I won’t take you through the whole exchange just to save time but there is an acknowledgement from Mr. French where he’s saying, “It would have been nice had it occurred prior to the 11 o’clock news.” So would agree that it didn’t get corrected prior to the 11 o’clock news; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was many times where Mr. French and Mr. Peckford said, “Oh, it would be nice if you could do this,” and I was like, “I don’t think you are appreciating the dynamics of this environment.” It was extremely chaotic.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Would it be fair to say that through this text exchange -- and I can walk you through it if need be but to save time -- that Mr. French was expressing concerns about the impact this Tweet would have on the legitimacy of the deal, publicly?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As was I. I was ---
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah, you shared those concerns?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I was -- I received feedback from a lot of the people I was around that they were -- they were struck how calm I was most of the time. There was one notable exception where I was arms flailing, yelling, likely swearing, and a very loud voice when I was like, “Who did this and what just happened here?” I was very -- because I and other had worked very, very hard to get us to this point. We had the logistics meeting at City Hall with Ayotte and the City manager, and Drummond. We had report -- heard back that the trucks were ready to roll and some of the guys were packing up some of their gear. And I was like, “Oh, my goodness, we’ve come this far and we’re going to get sabotaged?”
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you would agree that because of that miscommunication, it would have created a lack of clarity to those following that account about whether there was or there was not a deal; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was that lack of clarity even prior to that because this is the Sunday night. So when the pamphlets were being circulated and people would get them, they’d go, “Oh, this is fake.” Some people thought that it was actually counter-intelligence propaganda either by the government or by the police. That’s why the plan that we developed had teams of recognized road captains and other truckers who were very much recognized from the journeys to Edmonton to go in teams to the various blocks to personally talk to as many truckers as possible so they knew it was real.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But not withstanding that plan that may have been engaged, we did here from Ms. Belton yesterday that she was of the view at that time that it was fake news. In fact, she put a video out on TikTok that said it was fake news; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t -- I can’t recall. I think that was played yesterday, sorry, yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so, even at that time, there was still a lack of clarity even amongst organizers as to whether there was or was not a deal?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would say -- I would say it differently. I would say that subsequent to leaving Ottawa, when they reflected, they’re remembering events differently, because there are emails.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure, there may be emails but the TikTok video was put out to whomever Ms. Belton’s following consisted of; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Fair enough.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And so I just want to bring up -- you mentioned that the flyer that got circulated. Could we bring that up, please? That’s HRF1259. If we could scroll down to the bottom of the notice here, we -- this is obviously the notice we saw earlier that got circulated; correct? Sorry, if we could go -- yes, right there is perfect. Is this the correct version?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe so.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so we ---
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Actually, if you scroll down a little bit, I can tell you if it is. Yes ---
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- it’s the final version.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so we see here that it says -- sorry, that’s perfect: "The truckers on the Freedom Convoy 2022 board plan to start repositioning our trucks forward on Monday to consolidate our protest to the streets in front of Parliament. There is also room for trucks to relocate to 88." That's the site off -- out of the city; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was one of three sites that existed at the -- 88 is the exit 88, which I understand is near Embrun.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Would you agree with me that nowhere in this letter does it say that 75 percent of the trucks are going to have to leave the city as part of this deal?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Obviously.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. So there may have been a lack of clarity about that issue as well?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a lack of clarity about many things, but most of the truckers would have -- some of them wanted to go, some of them wanted to go -- well, just like look at Mr. Barber. First he had his truck downtown on Wellington, and on his own initiative, he moved it out to Arnprior or Embrun, one of the two, on his own initiative. He didn't want his truck downtown. Others wanted to do the same thing. These trucks were covered in salt. It's not a good thing to do for a long time. There was -- they'd set up truck washes at these places. Mr. Barber wanted Big Red cleaned. So this was not to be a precise document to enumerate every nuance of what we felt was going on at the time.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Fair enough. But you would agree, and we saw evidence of that in the video at Rideau and Sussex, you would agree that where there was a lack of clarity about what the police were up to, it created challenges for the police in managing the situation; is that a fair assessment?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It is, and that's the learning from the video, because I -- you saw me walking with the PLTs. We kept walking and I had a meeting with them, and Tamara was there as well. If you pause the video, you'll actually see us walk past Tamara and then she comes up and we talk. And we're, like, okay, what are our lessons learned here? How do we do this differently? And number one was don't do it at night. Don't do it at night. That's why we shut down the moves partly on the Monday because it was getting dark. That was a huge error. And Tom Marazzo had actually said earlier on, "We don't make any moves at night. It's just too dangerous." But it also changed the dynamic of the crowd. But and that's why we needed this coordination with the police. We were very optimistic with the truckers, and a lot of them went out. It wasn't just Chris. There was several of them that were on their feet moving. If you look at some of the videos, you'll see them running along the sidewalk. You'll see the police cars and then you'll see the trucks, then you'll see Chris running. And we were doing it.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the PLT were alongside doing that as well, correct, in terms of trying to get truckers to move in response to the deal?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They weren't trying to get truckers moved. They were trying to get the other people and the police to agree that the truckers could move. On the Tuesday morning, a delegation of PLTs arrived unexpectedly for the first time ever at the Swiss Hotel. I was in a room working on the letter with Tamara for the Prime Minister and the Premieres with the one that's been put in evidence. I got a knock on the door. The PLTs were there. I went in, and that's on the Tuesday they said -- they sensed something was wrong, and, like, the trucks are all wanting to move, but they said to me it was only a 24-hour deal. I said, "Look at the letter. With a large logistical exercise, the mayor's letter will take 24 to 72 hours." He looked embarrassed. He went over into the corner by the bathroom. He got on the phone, turned around, his face was a little red, and he said to everybody, "Sorry, major miscommunication. We're going to go out and try and get the trucks moving." So it was -- the PLTs were not trying to convince trucks to move. They were dealing with the police hierarchy and trying to get them, whoever kept blocking to stop the blocking.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
But I think after that miscommunication was clarified, PLT did work with protesters and ultimately some trucks did move; correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not on the Tuesday.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No, I'm talking about in general in response to the City deal. Some trucks moved Tuesday; yes?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Oh, yeah.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Yeah.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Over a hundred vehicles over two city blocks were cleared on Albert, a hundred vehicles left the downtown, including around 40 trucks, 23 of which -- I know it was 23 because I reported the 23 count from Chris. He phoned me, and he -- I said, "How many do you have on Wellington?" He said, "We moved 23 to Wellington. If you look at my text message, you'll see 23 onto Wellington." But it was 40 semis moved in total. The others left, and we know for sure one of them went straight home.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You're well over your time.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Could I just ask one more -- -
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to -- -
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- Mr. Commissioner?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you. You were here when Superintendent Drummond testified, and he testified that there were challenges with getting some of the truckers to move in response to that deal. Do you have any reason to disbelieve that evidence from Superintendent Drummond?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, we anticipated that there would be some holdouts, but we also knew that they wanted to be part of the group, and we anticipated that once the big -- most of them moved, the holdouts -- we didn't want to just be sitting there by themselves, and they would move.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you testified that you were taking that on faith; is that correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We -- that was our expectation and it bore out to be true on the Monday.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And thank you for the indulgence.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Good afternoon, Mr. Wilson.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
For the record, Tom Curry for Chief Sloly. You were present uninterrupted here in Ottawa, if I have it, February 2 to the 21st?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Nineteen (19) days, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you've described for the Commissioner your observations of the scene on the ground. Did you observe the enforcement action that was taken?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. The vantage point we had, Ms. Chipiuk and I, we set up a little, you know, operation centre of our own because we also had to monitor the bail applications and coordinate with the criminal legal teams. And we could see -- we had the view of the backside of the Weston and that tunnel, so we saw all the police -- all the highway buses coming in with the police filing off, and then we also, of course, had the television on, so we were watching the live streams from CTV and CBC as we were looking out our window and actually watching. We were quite high up, like, the 17th floor. And then getting various reports. It was a very, very active environment.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Had you given advice about the implications of the Emergencies Act -- the invocation of the Emergencies Act and what it meant for the protesters who were in the areas that had been uber affected by that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had given advice to the Board, as I've testified, on the Wednesday. I had done the Tik Tok that the Board and Mr. Barber requested on the Wednesday. I wasn't -- because Ms. Lich instructed myself and Ms. Chipiuk to go to an undisclosed location because she was concerned, she had no idea what was going to happen to us, we followed her instruction. And after that point, I lost any ability to do any large-scale communication that I can recall.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Understood. Did you see the flyers, the pamphlets, the information distributed by police to protesters?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Through the Police Liaison Teams?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To be precise, sir, when I say yes, there was -- they had a big blue outline and some of them had a red outline. They were placed on the windshields. And I saw that was the calm before the storm, so it was the Thursday. The Thursday there was a ceremony at the war memorial that I attended along with my wife, and I remember stopping and reading the warning that if you didn't leave -- and I'm going by memory -- that your -- you would be ticketed, your vehicle would be impounded. And I can't recall what else it said.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Now you had -- you told us you had involvement with the PLT, Police Liaison Team members. Were they Ottawa Police Service and OPP?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That's correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Any other police officials that you dealt with face-to-face or was it exclusively PLT?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had interactions with -- chance meetings with other -- some OPP and other police. They were extremely friendly, very cordial, very -- non-threatening. But in terms of any, you know, official, formal interactions, it was the PLTs.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Thank you. And, of course, your role evolved as you tried to provide the convoy organizers with a legal strategy or input into their strategy from a legal perspective and advice to achieve their objectives; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Your contact with protesters, I think you told the Commissioner, just to clarify, these are independent operators; yes?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, reminded me of the ranchers in Alberta, yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Indeed. You told us that they came here, and I'm not going to say every single one, but would it be right for the Commissioner to understand that those protesters who you encountered came here to Ottawa as part of the convoy intending to protest for the weekend but were inspire to stay as a consequence of their -- of the response that they observed from Canadians as they came here and once they arrived.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think they were inspired and they felt charged with a new responsibility to ensure the protest was successful, a responsibility they didn’t realize they would be invested in when they set out. However, I do know, having reviewed the evidence that in every instance that I have seen Ms. Lich was clear that at no time did she say we’re leaving after the weekend. I believe she said, “We’re going to stay until the mandates are lifted.”
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The independent operator protestors though, you agree with me that because they are -- if they’re not on the road they’re going backwards financially, right?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And so would it be right -- I understood your evidence to mean that the protesters, the independent operators, leaving aside the organizers and their message -- that the protestors were invested in a shorter protest than they were inspired to commit to once they got here. Is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you mean the opposite of what you just said?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The independent operators who came here weren’t intending when they -- let me start over again. The inspiration that you’ve spoken about -- that acted on them to stay here and protest longer than they would have originally.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, thank you. And I wasn’t trying to be unfair to you. I had a number of truckers say to me that they had originally planned -- as you've already heard from Mr. Barber, you know, to be in the convoy for a day, to join it for a certain distance and then turn around and reverse course home. And then they found themselves in Ottawa and found themselves in Ottawa for a long period. Yeah, that’s part of that synergy of growth that occurred.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you told us that there were some challenging members even among the top group of the leadership group. You’ve called Mr. King, I think, in your statement a rabble rouser who was at least, if not encouraging violence, tolerant of violence.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I mean, I think he was very angry and frustrated and really wanted to fight hard to get the government to change course. And not all of us used the same approaches.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Mr. Dichter was undermining the leadership?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
At least in part?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I've just never been able to understand Mr. Dichter. And the other thing is that he wasn’t there that much because firstly, he had left early before I arrived in late January. And then he’d had a car accident, I believe, near Kingston. And then he returned on the Friday the 4th of February and then early that evening at approximately 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. as he was leaving the front door of the ARC Hotel he fell and badly broke his ankle. So then he was away at hospital for a period of time. Then he was restricted to his room because he just had a wheelchair and crutches. Then he had to go back for some surgery. So he was out of the loop a lot.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And then Mr. Wilson, you described the MOU was not helpful to the main strategy you were -- the organizers were pursuing, fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A distraction and false hope.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Now, that meant all of it in the aggregate, in addition to the independent minds of the independent operators that controlling this entire group was very challenging.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was impossible.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And one of the things -- can I show you please, just to see if this quote is accurate, in HRF, please, Mr. Registrar, 1379. Just while that’s coming up, Mr. Wilson, I think you gave an interview to Mr. Lawton who has published or was publishing a book about the events of the convoy. Do you recall that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s correct.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Can I just ask you please to look at this and just maybe to the top just to orient the witness. Just a little higher; there’s an email, I think. There we go. Do you recall seeing this?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Could you please go then to, I think it’s page 5. There is a quote attributed to you. I just want to make sure that it’s -- there it is. And for context, Mr. Marazzo had also spoken about some of the events and the last line of that part -- see it at the top. “No one could force the truckers to do anything they didn’t want to do.” And you seemed to have agreed in that to say: “We don’t control them. We don’t even know who they are. No one signed up. It’s not a curling bonspiel. It’s not a golf tournament.” And you made the comment that you can’t simply tell them what to do. Fair comment?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And that’s why we had to use other approaches of moral suasion, of leadership, of recognizing their fatigue, recognizing the desire of many to find a graceful and respectful way, a proud way to get back home.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the Ottawa Police Services interaction with them expected and reasonably expected that a peaceful protest, a lawful protest would be held in their community, fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have to assume that to be true.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And the unlawful -- you raised the issue with my friend, Mr. Leon, about the -- when did it become an unlawful protest. And you've answered this question to others so I won’t dwell on it. But certainly you would accept that the blocking of municipal roads, the violation of noise by-laws and other forms of what might loosely be described as harassment as part of that demonstration, would be a challenge for police in confining the protest to a lawful protest; is that fair?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, if you and I -- and I mean you and I -- happen to be walking down Wellington on February 10th and we were having a chat, lawyer to lawyer, I don’t think that we would conclude that you and I were breaking the law by walking down in front of Parliament, you know, on the sidewalk of Wellington Street. So this was the challenge is that you had individuals who were -- who I had told consistently when they asked, you know, of course you can’t park your truck there and I always used the analogy to the 401 which they got. “Yeah, I wouldn’t be allowed to do that. This is no different.” But for this potential, I really wouldn’t get into it with most of them about it because they were told to park there and then they were barricaded in place. So it was this weird mix where you had people lawfully, in my view, walking, mingling, shopping, interacting, some showing signs, some not, some just wanting to take it in with other who were breaching various parking bylaws and municipal ordinances and provincial statutes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And just a couple of quick things then Mr. Commissioner. On top of that, you also faced the challenge of some -- I think in your statement you maybe described them as strange people who had descended into the protest, often in the evening, often on the weekends, some sovereign citizens, and others who were -- I think you may have labelled them troublemakers. That was a challenge for the convoy organizers to deal with, of course?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Constantly.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And challenging obviously for police and residents?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And thee was a good cooperation there. You know, when -- that was the rule. So everybody had a block captain and if Antifa was going to show up the rule was you phone the police, you call 9-1-1. And the frustration for us was the next day, you know, three people from Antifa came in and vandalized trucks. The next day the police chief or whichever one would hold a press conference and say, “Last night we had three charges for property damage in the downtown core.” And we were like ---
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You closely watched the signals coming from all levels of government including the Police Services Board here in Ottawa and the chief, Chief Sloly, correct?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Our most acute concern was the level of pressure we saw building on Police Sloly from the Police Services Board. That’s what motivated Mr. Marazzo to take a series of steps to cause the City meeting to facilitate some action to reduce pressure.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Including through your efforts with Mr. French to avoid what I think in one of your text messages to him was a blood bath.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And the first one though was to -- it was two distinct strategies, One was immediate acute, which was the pressures saw on Sloly before he was no longer chief. And the other one was a broader exit plan.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. Thank you, Mr. Wilson.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. The OPP have no questions today.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The CCLA, please?
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Commissioner. Ewa Krajewska, for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Mr. Wilson, just briefly, were you still on the ground in Ottawa when the financial institution freezing order started to come into effect?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Just to be clear, There was three instances related to freezing that I was dealing with -- well, four -- and no random order, just off the top of my head. The earliest one was the threat of an interpleader application by TD Bank through their external counsel. The next one was the ex parte order obtained by the Attorney General of Ontario under the Criminal Code declaring the donations proceeds of crime. Then the next was a freeze order of sorts, and then we had the emergency measures, the financial measures, and then after that, we had the Mareva injunction.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. I just want to ask you about the financial measures under the Emergencies Act.
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Can you just -- did people come to you from the Freedom Convoy and ask you for advice with respect to the orders and relate to you how they were affecting them, and can you just provide a -- if they did, could you just provide a summary of how the orders were affecting them, if they came to you to speak to you about that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Every one of them did in real time, and they were finding out at different times. I still remember one of them coming to me and saying, "I just got a phone call from my wife. She's at the supermarket. She was with the kids, grocery cart was full, she wanted to pay with the debit card, it didn’t work." There's the line up of people. What's going on, because now the conveyor's full with the next person's groceries. And then she tried her Visa card and her second credit card, and none of it worked, and she had to leave the store in great embarrassment, and phoned her spouse and said, "What is going on?" We had other people that were trying to put gas in their vehicles and couldn't. There was more than one incidence where people needed to get prescriptions filled, could not. And then subsequent to that, as we worked to get the freezes lifted and reach out to the bank, we developed this template email to write to the bank to ask the bank to respond to us as lawyers, Ms. Chipuik and I. Then we have received reports since and it's recently that a number of these people, even though their bank accounts were unfrozen -- sorry, Mr. Commissioner, just realized how fast I was speaking -- after their accounts were frozen have been denied credit applications, and I have explained to my clients and others who contacted me that the Canadian Bankers' Association representative who testified before the House Committee said that each of these persons will have their accounts -- their names marked -- flagged for life.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Mr. Wilson. Those are all my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Convoy Organizers, any questions?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We have no questions, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFREY LEON
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes. Just two points. Mr. Wilson, in response to my friend Mr. MacKinnon's questions about whether you were referring in that email to the federal Emergencies Act, I believe you said that someone had heard from some MPs that it was under active discussion?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. We heard it a number of times over the course of the week prior.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall who was telling you that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it would have been someone coming into the operation centre that had heard from an MP. I remember hearing -- because I would say, "Well, what's the source?" and it was some MP, and I can't remember -- I don’t believe it was indicated as to which party, whether it was the Liberal, New Democrat, or Conservative MP, but it was -- I guess there was strong rumours over in Parliament that it was active - - under active consideration.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And in response to my friend Mr. Champ's question to you about the injunction, I think you acknowledged that you did oppose the initial application?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Can you help me with this? I understood from your evidence that your clients had been concerned for some time about the horn blowing?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I believe you said that they took their own action even before the injunction?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The truckers had agreed amongst themselves -- and this is in the transcript and represented, I believe, in an affidavit actually -- before the Superior Court and the injunction application that they put in this informal protocol of being silent between 8:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. Justice McLean, on the Saturday application, had suggested the parties consider agreeing to maybe allowing one hour for horns during the noon hour, but when we returned on the following Monday, that was something he wasn’t interested in entertaining.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so can you tell us, if there was this concern, why was it that you were opposing the injunction? Wouldn't it have been consistent with your clients' views to have an injunction and stop people blowing their horns?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The Board was split. Other members and some of the truckers felt that it was something that shouldn't be -- that they shouldn't be restricted, other than the agreement they had for night quiet from being able to blow their horn. They thought it was part of their right of protest. So there wasn’t unanimity in the client group on that point, and the instructions that I and Ms. Chipuik received were to oppose it, now that Mr. Champ has refreshed my memory.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that completes the cross-examinations. I just have one question, and it's with respect to something I believe was heard earlier on. Was there an area that was allowed for protests or encouraged by either the police or your group to carry out protests, other than on Wellington Street? I heard something about near the War Museum. Are you aware of anything like that?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. No, there wasn’t, and that was one of our frustrations, Mr. Commissioner, was that we were always faced with this zero-sum choice with police liaisons. We were trying to -- I really believe that if we could have a stepped type process, you know, a ramping down and building off success and building trust, but no, it was always the number of calls in a day, and if you look at my phone logs, you'll see the number of calls in a day I was receiving from the PLTs after I became more involved in that, and it was always the same question. "Keith, what's the exit strategy?" You know, it was always, "When are everybody leaving?" sort of thing.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you're not aware of an area near the War Museum that was -- that protests were allowed and were carried out?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was an area, I believe, along -- if my geography is correct, and it may not be -- along the Sir John A, where they had set up, and you'll see this. There's photographs of it. And I don’t know, but there was never any discussion or offer from the PLTs for anything other than ending the protest in its totality.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you ever specifically ask the PLTs for an area or a manner to continue the protest?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not, other than taking the steps of this de-escalation and reducing the footprint to Wellington.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you didn’t ask and they didn’t offer?
Keith Wilson (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Correct.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your evidence. We're going to take the lunch break and come back in an hour with a new witness. Thank you.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for one hour. La Commission est levée pour une heure.
Upon recessing at 1:03 p.m.
Upon resuming at 2:06 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. A l’ordre. The Commission has reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bon après-midi.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The next witness is Tom Marazzo.
MR. TOM MARAZZO, AFFIRMED
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Marazzo.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I’m one of the Commission counsel. Through your counsel you have provided a statement about your involvement in the protests in Ottawa; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up HRF1595? Is this the statement that you've provided?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, it is.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you reviewed it before testifying?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are there any changes that you wish to make?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you adopt the contents of this statement as accurate?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to ask you just a few questions about your background. I understand from the statement which we can actually take down, Mr. Clerk -- is that you were born and raised in Ontario. Where did you grow up?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Niagara Falls and St. Catherines, Ontario.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where do you live now?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just outside of Napanee.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you're a father of two children; is that right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you served in the Armed Forces for 25 years, achieving the rank of Captain; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then after leaving the Armed Forces you earned an MBA?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I had the MBA when I was currently serving. And then when I retired from the military in 2015 I went back to school and did a Bachelor of Technology in software development.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where did you earn that Bachelor?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Seneca.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then after that you begam working at Georgian College as a partial load teacher; is that right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as I understand it, you lost that job in 2021; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you please explain to the Commission what happened?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was notified that the College had adopted the province-wide COVID 19 vaccine mandates and I had some interactions with my union and realized that the union was not going to be supportive. And so subsequent emails came out from the president of the college herself. And my response to that was to send an email to the president of the college as well as deans, the VP of HR, and as many other faculty as I could put on this email. I sent it internally to the college, not publicly, looking to express my concern and question -- you know, I'm not a lawyer, obviously -- questioning the legality and sort of the morality of what they were doing. And a few days later I was terminated with cause.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when was that, approximately?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
September 13th of last year. So a year September.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what were you doing between September 2021 and your arrival in Ottawa, which we’ll get to in a minute, which I understand was in January 2022?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. My former spouse and I sold our house and we purchased land outside of Napanee and then we moved to that area. And the plan really this year was to build a house. I cashed an RRSP to live off of while I was trying to build the house and really just focus on that, focus on my family. The level of tension in this country was extreme, to say the least. And I really wanted to focus on putting my family in a better situation which meant actually going off grid if that was even possible because as an unvaccinated person there was a lot of rhetoric about actually being able to participate in society. So we chose to sell the house. We purchased land. We were going to build a house. And I ended up -- we ended up in an apartment together, the three of us with my daughter in just outside of Kingston. And we were there working on plans for the house.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to participating in the protest in Ottawa had you been politically active?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understood -- but please correct me if I'm wrong -- that you've never been a trucker?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you say in your statement that you arrived in Ottawa on January 30th, which I believe is the first Sunday; does that sound right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what brought you to Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Through a mutual friend of mine and James Bauder and his wife Sandy, I was contacted on the phone that Sunday morning. And I was asked if I would take a phone call with James and Sandy just to discuss some logistical organizational ideas around the convoy. I had been tracking the convoy as it was coming across Canada and I was absolutely a supporter of it. I really loved what this whole entire Freedom Convoy was about. So in that discussion which lasted approximately 15 minutes, James had asked me if I would come to Ottawa and support the convoy in any way that I could in terms of getting organized with logistical stuff. And within three hours of that phone call I was actually at the ARC Hotel.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was the mutual friend?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Her name is Jane Moffatt, I believe. I had only ever met her once in person. And that was -- I actually -- I think I've spoken to her one time since the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you first spoke with Mr. Bauder what did you know about him?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Nothing.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you learn about him when you spoke about him -- spoke with him, sorry?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I learned that there was a great need to get organized and from him personally the details -- I never got any details about him personally or his wife Sandy. I knew they were two people that were trying to effect a change in this country and I wanted to help them out. So there was an opportunity for me to employ the skills that I have gained over my career, and so I recognized it as a great opportunity to get involved.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any sense how James Bauder identified you as someone who might be able to assist?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think Jane had mentioned to him that I was retired military. And I think that’s pretty much it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After that initial phone conversation with Mr. Bauder, how often were you two in communication?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had seen James when I first arrived at the ARC, and then it was somewhat sporadic. I think he moved to a different location. I don't know where. I know he had a room in the ARC. And I would occasionally run into him. My contact with him was very sporadic.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
hen you arrived at the ARC Hotel in Ottawa, what did you learn about the organization of the protests?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Really, when I walked into the -- like, I was brought into a boardroom and thee were several truckers and two OPS police officers, Sgt. Fung Li, Sgt. Lou Carvelho. And the meeting had already begun and I was asked to turn my cell phone off or remove it from the room and give the police my name, which I did. And then I just quietly sat there. James actually brought me in the room and introduced me and I believe he oversold my career. I know there was people in the room that actually thought I was a retired General, which is clearly not the case. And so I sat there quietly and I just listened. And it was a very telling meeting. I got the feeling that after two days of the convoy being there this was the very first collective meeting that they had actually had in a room. I could be wrong about that but I didn’t get the sense that this group of people had ever come together with the Ottawa Police or any representative of the government of any kind.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ve heard the name Fung Li. Was it your understanding that those -- him and the other officer were members of the PLT?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who were the other truckers in the room?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The details of that are a little sketchy. They weren’t all truckers. Dana Metcalfe was somebody that I sat beside. Joe Bourgault was in the room and Ryan Olsen, his son-in-law. There was Brigitte Belton, I believe was in the room. Some of the other names I just -- I didn’t know who they were when I first walked into the room so I can’t really account for who everybody was in the room.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I’ll return to who you were dealing with in a minute. Can you just perhaps provide some more context or an explanation about how it was the case that you received a phone -- like, what drove you to go to Ottawa after receiving a phone call from a man that you’d never met before and you didn’t know anything about that would have you leave, you know, your wife and your kids to go and do that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To be perfectly honest, I think it was a case of fear. I had over the time of COVID noticed things that I had never before believed that I would see in Canada related to the way the police and bylaw and the government were going after Canadians. And for the first time in my life I was, you know, actually afraid of police. And I have several friends that are police officers. And I had a phone call with Randy Hillier one day. And Randy didn’t know who I was. This was -- I sent an email to him and Roman and other people and months later his office had returned the call. And Randy doesn't even recall the conversation. And I said, “You know, I spent 25 years of my life in the military and for the first time I'm actually afraid in my own country.” And he said, “You know, never be afraid. You can’t be afraid of the police or the government. They’re here to serve us.” And I think for me that kind of flipped a switch where I was like I went from thinking I'm afraid to get arrested or beaten by the police or getting an $880 fine to, “You know what? Now I want the fine. I’m done. I’m not going to hide from these people anymore.” And that started to mentally transition the way I thought. And then we came to a point where I thought, “Well, at some point the lawyers are going to step in and intervene and start protecting the public,” and they didn’t, except for a few. Then when the Covid mandates -- the vaccine came out, I thought, “Well, the community’s going to stand up and put a stop to this because of informed consent.” And they didn’t, except for a few. And it was the truckers that gave me an opportunity to actually get into, you know, fighting for my kids’ rights.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The phone call you mentioned with Mr. Hillier, was that in the context of the Ottawa protests or did that happen before?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it was months before when I still was employed and still lived in -- I don’t know if I was employed. I think it was -- I still lived in my old house prior to selling it and moving to the Napanee area.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you arrived in Ottawa, did you have a sense of how long you were planning on being there?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I -- I had bag with five changes of clothes. I believed that at the time I would go there, get organized, start to just kind of develop a daily sustainment plan and a routine, and then I would like for somebody who was able to basically take over for me and then I would move on if I wasn’t required anymore.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you arrive and, you know, you’ve spoken to Mr. Bauder on the phone, he brings you into this room where there’s protesters and some police, what happens next? How do you integrate yourself into the organization?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That particular meeting actually got quite animated, very loud. I remember Brigitte being quite upset with Sergeant Li where she had made a comment of -- basically to the effect of, “What, are you going to shoot us in the streets?” Like, that’s where the level had gone. And it had started to calm down. Eventually, the two police officers departed from the meeting and we all just kind of sat around and regrouped. I think people went for breaks. And then we -- people left the room. I remember Brigitte and I being in the room and right around that time I think somebody brought in the map. And so I had learned there was a list of places that the OPS had requested that we not go near, like roads that we stay off of, and I said, “Okay, great, we’ve got the map. Let’s start marking the map.” And for me what was really important, because I had spent -- my son has a very severe heart condition and I spent Christmas this year in the hospital with my son. And so, you know, I’m very aware of keeping the emergency lanes open; it’s an important issue for me. So the first thing we did was start identifying hospitals. We identified the police station, fire departments, vulnerable infrastructure, and then started to plan out the routes to those in an effort to really make sure those lanes were always accessible. So that’s really where we started. And then we -- I needed to get a handle on where all the vehicles were located and that was a monumental task because, at the time, trucks were coming into the city, trucks were leave the city, there was a huge just change in our overall size of the convoy overall. So really, that first day was about getting a handle on where everybody was and the size and scope of the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it that this involved meeting a lot of people you had never before?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, everybody.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone ask you who you were and what you were doing there?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
James had introduced me initially into that meeting so everyone just realized there was an army guy in the room and so I think -- my sense was right away that nobody was in charge, particularly. There were strong personalities, people with strong opinions but, for some reason, and I don’t know why, I think it was just the fact that I was an army guy that people assumed that I was going to be able to get organized. And to be perfectly honest, it was quite -- it’s nothing unusual for an army officer to be able to do what I did, but it was just trying to get organized.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say “in charge” and “get organized”, do you mean get organized -- are you talking about logistics?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Logistics. My focus was really just on logistics and a sustainment plan, not any other -- I wasn’t thinking in a tactical sense. I was thinking just purely in sustainment to make sure that people could get food, fuel, money, if they needed it for whatever purpose. That was really what my thinking was at the time.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So emergency lanes ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- fuel, food, money. Anything else that you would consider as part of being responsible for logistics?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was -- a big task, which was really, really difficult, was to find the numbers and the composition of all the different types of trucks and where everybody was scattered. And then I learned that we had trucks out on the parkway. We had vehicles out on 88, Arnprior, locations I never actually made it to. But it was just trying to get a good situational awareness, or SA, of what was happening on the ground.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you arrived on the 30th, and I guess probably moving into the 31st, did you come to understand that there had already been people in Ottawa who were working on food, logistics, and money?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not know that until, I believe, late that first evening, and that is when I met Tamara and found out that there was an alternate coordination centre at the Swiss Hotel.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you -- what did you learn about the alternate coordination centre at the Swiss Hotel?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just that it had existed and that, in those conversations, it was agreed that my scope of what I was interested or involved in was now going to be really cut in half. And I was quite happy about that because I didn’t want to get into a situation where I had to think about security, public speaking and a stage, and all of that stuff I had learned about. I didn’t have to worry about doing first- aid; that was going to be handled by the other group. We were just really going to focus on the logistics in terms of feeding, fuel, and then truck movement. So that was another piece of my responsibility would be moving vehicles in and out and around the city.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was it the case that no one was organizing feeding and fuel before your arrival?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, and that’s the surprising this because that was happening. I mean that just -- that just does happen. I mean the number of supplies and fuel that was coming into the city, it actually did make what I was trying to do a lot more easy because that was just organically happening anyway. I mean, when people are hungry, they go on -- go searching for food.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I’m going to do this in a bit of a two-part question ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sure.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and bear with me if it presents a problem, but can you explain to me what was happening in terms of where food and fuel was coming from before your arrival and then what changed after your arrival or what you did to change anything?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
To be honest, I don’t know where -- where they were getting their supplied enroute to Ontario -- or to Ottawa. But I had seen a lot of social media videos and seeing people on the overpasses, at truck stops, so I know that all along the way they were collecting food and donations -- everything that I had seen on social media. And so when -- I believe when they arrived in Ottawa, the -- it was the intention of the public to continue to come to the City of Ottawa and give more supplies as much as they could possibly give.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you learn anything about the Adopt a Trucker campaign that was being spearheaded by Chris Garrah?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I learned about it a few days later. I didn’t really know much about it. I -- my interactions with Chris were very little. It wasn’t inside -- it wasn’t something inside of my area of influence that I was concerned about. It was something that was kind of going on in the background so I didn’t interact with it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How was fuel supplied to truckers that were in downtown core?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There were, I think, different sources coming. Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the type of vehicle; it’s a fuel truck. It’s probably written. I’m not a trucker so some of the lingo, I wasn’t fully conversant on. I just -- I know that they were getting a lot of fuel but it wasn’t until after it was forbidden to bring in more fuel with bigger trucks and stuff to refuel them that people started to bring in the jerrycans by hand.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And was that something you assisted in organizing?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. No, that was -- by that point, my role had kind of been modified a little. It had sort of transitioned a little bit later on, about a week after or so. I just knew they were getting in fuel. The truckers were taking care of their own fuel. And there was no shortage of the fuel up until the Ottawa Police forbid them bringing in trucks of fuel, and then it was jerrycans. And that was not my idea. That was just people being very, very industrious.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you do anything to coordinate fuel into the downtown Ottawa at any point?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not have to, no.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things you said you did was get a sense of the number and composition of the types of truck. Two -- first question; how did you go about doing that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I literally had to go and send people out and count trucks in the streets.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall what was the result of that calculation?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well there was different areas so I remember speaking to one person who after -- it took four days just to get that magic number of 322. That was a head count; that was literally somebody going out with sticky notes on streets and then actually breaking down by vehicle; it was incredibly difficult to get an accurate count because trucks kept coming and trucks kept going in and out of the city or out to different locations. So at some point I just kind of gave up on that as a -- something that I really needed to focus on. I was just kind of more interested in, you know, general terms, where do we have vehicles sent for a mass kind of thing; I didn’t need the details of where they were.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But at some point in time it was determined there was roughly 322 trucks?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was our count and I knew -- and honestly I knew that that count -- I could I shouldn’t say “honestly” when I’ve sworn an oath, but I really -- I didn’t have a lot of confidence in the number just because of the influx and outflux of vehicles. So even when I got that number it wasn’t overly valuable to me.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point did you feel that you had a handle on the number of trucks that were in the City and then were coming and going or was that something that always changed?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It always changed; and, again, it just -- it lost value in knowing that specific number. The point of interest for me was that we had more trucks concentrated on Wellington.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
With respect to clearing emergency lanes, the Commission has heard evidence, including from Mr. Barber and Mr. Wilson, that the emergency lanes -- let me back up. The protestors weren’t able to keep the lanes clear on Rideau, Sussex and at Kent; does that sound correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sometimes, yes, that’s true.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It was not left open, to your knowledge?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My understanding was when that did happen and it happened occasionally -- for example, Sergeant Lee had been let’s say vigorously contacting me to clear out one of the intersections and he kept asking me, you know, if I had gone down there and checked it. So I finally -- I didn’t send a runner; I went down for myself, to see it for myself. And what I discovered was, there was heavy equipment owned by the City, concrete barriers and five Ottawa Police officers standing in the intersection; it wasn’t being blocked by any of our people at all. So I -- you know, there was a give and take where we were sent or I was sent or other people that I was with were sent to go look at an intersection only to find out it wasn’t even us. And I had two members that I was working with that routinely, when we were asked by OPS to go and check on a safety lane or an intersection or something that was blocking safety, our two people would go down and physically speak to the drivers and get them to open up those lanes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so it’s my understanding that those efforts were generally successful except on Kent Street; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I can’t say the street; is that -- Kent is right near the Rideau -- or sorry, I’m fuzzy on some of the streets.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So the evidence has been there’s been two locations, one’s Rideau/Sussex ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- which we’ll talk about in a moment. To your knowledge was there another location that was -- where the emergency lanes were not open?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. The only sticking point was Rideau. And even on Rideau, I spoke to one of the drivers personally and I said “You need to make sure you keep a safety lane” and he said “They have twice moved out of the way; they sit in their trucks and they listen for ambulances or they listen for sirens and if they hear it, they move the truck out of the way because three times they had listened to the Ottawa Police who said, “You know, can you please move the vehicle?”, and they would move the vehicle and the Ottawa Police would move their cars in that spot and they would trick the drivers. So the drivers at Rideau said “We’re not falling for it again; we’ll sit in our truck; we will listen for sirens and when we hear it, we will move”. And he assured me that on two occasions they did exactly that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know who you were speaking with who gave you that information?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t know his name; I know where he was parked. He was parked -- I know where he was parked. I don’t know his name; I know he had a paper bag full of letters from children.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand from your statement and from some of the evidence, that you had several interactions with the people who were at Rideau and Sussex; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you come to learn about who was in that intersection?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a polish contingent, a Polish Canadian contingent; there was French Canadians and I know there was Anglophones on that corner; there was many different groups of people on that corner.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard many adjectives to describe the group but I’ll put to you the suggestion that they’ve been described as difficult or standoffish; would you agree with that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know there was a reputation prior to me going there and speaking to some of them. I didn’t get the sense that they were difficult. I got the sense that they were -- they were there for their own reasons which were separate from the overall convoy itself, most of the people that I was interacting with. But I got the feeling they were there for their families, for their communities. I know one driver I spoke to said that he didn’t have anything to go back to until these mandates were lifted and they were quite determined. I didn’t find them to be difficult; I just -- there was a little bit of a language barrier with one of the French-speaking men that I spoke to, but I didn’t find it difficult; I just found it a different style of motivation.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We’ve heard a bit again about -- with respect to French-Canadian protestors there; were you familiar with the “Farfadaas” at the time?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not until I’ve been sitting in the audience here.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Would you say there was anything different in the make-up of the group at Rideau/Sussex than at any of the other locations?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just that they were more independent than the rest of the convoy.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As you began to work on clearing emergency lanes, interacting with the police, working with the protestors, what did you come to understand the organization of the protestors to be?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Very, very decentralized. I learned that the truckers were not from big organizations, that they were actually independent owner/operators of their vehicles, and that you really -- you really had to be respectful of the position that they were in. They were individual business owners; they weren’t going to take orders from anybody. You know, they weren’t going to take orders from me just because I said, you know. I had no legitimate or legal authority to tell anyone to do anything and I wasn’t signing anyone’s pay cheque. This was a case where you -- you know, you had to use your soft skills to communicate and get people to buy in with what you were trying to do collectively.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
To your mind were there any leader or leaders of the group?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think there were people that were in leadership positions. You know, for example, Chris Barber is a very charismatic person. He’s an honest person; he’ll just tell you the way it is and he was very, very effective at communicating with truckers and it didn’t matter what their backgrounds were. They were all truckers. And so Chris was very influential speaking with truckers. Tamara was very influential. Brigitte was influential in her own way and many of the other people that were there working under the ARC had developed networks and they were always trying to broaden the network to communicate the things that we were all trying to do. And that was -- a lot of stuff was -- like we’ve got speeches on Saturday and trying to communicate that to the public and really work the social media angles because we were getting vilified badly, in such a grotesque way by the legacy media, that we made a conscious effort at one point to go into the trucks with cameras and get truckers to tell their stories on social media. So they were -- the leaders were out there developing that kind of messaging to get out to all the supporters across Canada that had given us $20 million to be there.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Pat King while you were in Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us what your interactions were and what your impression of him was?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Really, my interactions were very little with Pat King and it was overly impactful, to be honest. I just -- I had spent maybe two to three occasions in his presence, and it was very little. I know that at one point there were some slow rolls and I had requested that one of the other members go with Pat because I know Pat was leading that convoy, and I made sure that the person I sent kept him well behaved.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are you talking about the slow rolls at the airport?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you think you needed to send someone to keep Pat King well behaved?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because I only knew Pat through reputation and one or two interactions with him, and I didn’t want there to be any confusion as to what they were there to do. It was to really just do a slow roll and to guarantee that in no way did we stop at the airport because we were well aware that there was an orange helicopter route for the hospital. We wanted to make sure that we had no impact on any air ambulance ability to get in and out of that airport. We had no intention of slowing down or disrupting the airport, and I wanted to make sure that we had somebody that was going to guarantee that we weren’t there to close down or lock down the airport or disrupt the air ambulance. We just wanted to basically send a message that, you know, we can still move around the city.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it -- so one of your concerns was potentially that Mr. King might try to shut down the airport or blockade the airport?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was just on my part, to be honest, and some of the others that we discussed it. It was just a precaution, just to make sure we -- we also believed that if we told him not to do something like that, he would listen. I don’t ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you take a precaution when you're concerned that something ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- might happen? So is that - --
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- what you were concerned would happen?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was your concern based on Mr. King's reputation, as you indicated?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, just solely on his reputation. That was it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was Mr. King's reputation?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
A little bit of a -- a little bit of a wild card. I remember in a meeting once that I had jokingly referred to him as a hand grenade going off in a room and scaring everybody else that he was -- it was going to explode. And it was a bit of a joke. He laughed. Everybody else seemed to think it was funny, but it was kind of like, funny, because yeah, that’s true. But just reputation-wise, he was a little bit of a wild card, and I just wanted to make sure that we were able to contain anything like that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you concerned it was possible that Mr. King may not engage in peaceful protest?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That was never a concern that I shared or had.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mention that you had dealt with Mr. Bauder rather sporadically ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- after the initial phone conversation, introduction. At any point did you become aware of the Memorandum of Understanding, which I'm sure you've heard about over the last few weeks, or the last few days, at least?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir. I did hear of the Memorandum of Understanding. I learned about it once it was submitted already to, I believe, the governor general. And I think the media had a copy and I had read it. Again, I'm no lawyer, but I know it wasn’t written by a lawyer. It wasn’t very well written, and I remember having a conversation, once I learned about the MOU, with somebody that I believed to be involved in drafting the MOU and it was a private, one-on-one meeting, and I said, "You must retract that. If you do not retract that or pull it back or put the genie back in the bottle, we are going to denounce it." It made us look like we were here for a completely different purpose than what we were there for. It really muddied the waters, and I don't know if as a result of that conversation they pulled it back. I just know that the next day it was sort of retracted.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say it made it look like you were there for a completely different purpose, what was that purpose?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I had read it, and as far as I was concerned, it was -- we were there for the mandates. That MOU was there for a different purpose, and I don’t remember the details of it, to be honest. I skimmed through it. It was not very well written. And so I didn’t think it was credible, I didn’t think it was appropriate, and I certainly didn’t think that the government was ever going to suddenly resign because somebody sent them a memo.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You may not remember the details, but was your concern that what the MOU appeared to call for was something that was undemocratic?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
What I believed when I read it was that they thought that it was a legal process that they were -- that they believed it was a mechanism of government that they were trying to initiate. Even though I'm no constitutional scholar by any means, but I could tell that it was not going to go anywhere.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You said you had a conversation with someone where you said this must be denounced. Who was that conversation with?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe his name is Martin, Martin Broadman.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's Commission's understanding that Mr. Broadman was someone who was associated with Mr. Bauder; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did he seem receptive to your message?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I think he was upset. It didn’t -- the meeting didn’t end on a bad note. It wasn’t -- like, he was upset about it. He had been working on this, I believe, since the year before the convoy had even arrived. This was something that they were working on that they thought they were doing something that was legitimately recognized by the legal system. And he was upset that he wasn’t getting support, but I believe at the end of that meeting, he said, "Okay. We will -- we'll pull it back."
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You've been referred to in media and some of the documents we received as the spokesperson for the protestors. Did you identify yourself to anyone as the spokesman?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, spokesperson.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see yourself as a spokesperson?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The last two days, on the 18th and 19th of February was the one -- or the two times only during the convoy that I had chosen to speak without being -- or without discussion with other members of the convoy, and that was because I felt that given the previous media stuff that I had done, alternative media or livestreams, that I would be recognized by the public as somebody associated with maybe some of the other people like Tamara and Chris and Brigitte, because everybody else was either out of the city or were already incarcerated, so there was nobody left that I believed the public would recognize as a credible person to deliver those two final days' worth on the 18th and 19th. And that’s the only time. Other than that, I was always asked to speak on the livestreams.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you did. on multiple occasions, either speak on livestreams or in sort of forums or press conferences; is that fair?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's our understanding -- but again, correct me if I'm wrong -- that the first one was on February 7th. Does that sound correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 7th or 8th, yes, and then on the 10th, and I did clean up some of the confusion that I had caused on the initial.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, let's talk about some of that confusion right now then. So you -- as our -- again, it's our understanding that this is the 7th ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- that you gave a press conference. Mr. Barber was there, Ms. Belton was there, Ms. Lich was there ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and some of the organizers?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what I'm referring to?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did that press conference come about?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not remember the person who asked me or the group of people who asked me to speak, but I had -- I believe just previous to that, we -- it was the night after the -- or the night of the Coventry raid that we did a livestream as a larger group. And it seemed to go okay with, I guess, my presence on the video. So I was asked the next day to deliver a message on a livestream. And I don't remember who asked me to do it. I just know that I was asked to do it, and that I would be accompanied by several members of -- well, I think the entire Board as well as two doctors who were in attendance in that video.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up COM00000884, and as it's coming up, Mr. Marazzo, this is -- you can confirm if it is the case, but we understand that this is the press conference.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, this is it.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
This is it? Okay. If you could pause it please and go to the 7:25 mark, and then play from 7:25 to about 8:21. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One quick question and then I'm going to ask you about the statement that caused confusion. When you made a reference to a 22-caliber Ermine and a 357 World, this has been something that's been reported on, were you referencing Mr. -- Prime Minister Trudeau?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video you say, "I'm willing to sit at a table with..."
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I just continue to answer, because I've been ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I didn't ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- vilified in the media for that one.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Please go ahead.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a joke. I literally meant to comment on the man's intelligence. It was a joke. Sorry.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, understood. Sorry.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You can take the video down.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Then you said, "I'm willing to sit at a table with the Conservatives and the NDP and the Block as a coalition. I'll sit with the Governor General. Put us at the table with somebody that actually cares about Canada."
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you mean when you said that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In no way did I ever mean or intend for us to be part of the government. I wanted them to come and sit literally at a table and start figuring out a way to be an effective opposition to the Liberal Party of Canada, because we weren't seeing any opposition at all with the official opposition of Canada. You know, if the Conservative Party had been effective as being an opposition, we may not be in this room today. But instead, they just didn't oppose anything that was happening to Canadians as to why we were there. And when we got there, there was no attempt at any level of government, municipal, provincial, federal government to even talk to us, to get in a room with us. And you've heard the testimony here, nobody ever wanted to even have a conversation with us. So I want to say that I was quite sick throughout my time during the convoy. And, you know, I was exhausted. I was dehydrated. I -- you know, lots of stuff, and in that particular moment of that video, I did misspeak. It wasn't very clear what I was getting at. Two days later, I tried to clarify that, or three days later, but what we wanted was for the government, anybody. We were desperate. It was a -- basically, a cry for help to come in and sit down and do this democratically. And that is a mechanism of government, because as we've seen since then, or even during the convoy, the NDP and the Liberals were forming a coalition that the public had not yet known about. And so, you know, forming a coalition seemed to be something -- like, we were trying to nudge them, motivate them in any way we could just to talk to us. And to this day, they've never spoken with us ever.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Some media outlets who reported on this come to suggest that you were saying that the protesters wanted to form governments, which ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- they would be in a coalition with ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- the opposition parties, but the protesters themselves would form part of the government.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. Like, that ---
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That is, and that's -- that is my fault, that the way I phrase that in the video. That is not what my intention was, but the way I phrased it, I can understand that being confusing, but it's not what I intended. We wanted no part of being the government. We wanted the government to do the governing, but to listen to us.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that you spoke again on February 10th and attempted to clarify your statements.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that. But did you take any steps to clarify what you meant with the media outlets who were reporting that the protesters wanted to form a coalition government?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was not in charge of direct contact -- I had no direct contact with the media, and as far as I was concerned, my belief was if they actually started to do their job and report fairly, we would reward them with contact, or I would, or whatever. Not necessarily me, but if they continued down the path of constantly vilifying and lying about us, I didn't see the point really of talking to them at all. We were effective, highly effective at getting out everything we wanted to get out to the public through alternative and social media.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you didn't make any efforts to go to the ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- reporters who had reported ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- a different interpretation and say, "That's wrong. Can you please fix it?"
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so you don't know whether or not they would have issued a correction or issued a -- maybe not a correction, a follow-up story, you just don't know.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't know. And they never reached out to talk to me from my knowledge either.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After the February 7th press conference, Benjamin Dichter, who's a witness we'll hear from later, sent out a press release saying that only himself, Mr. Barber, Ms. Lich and a woman named Dagney were authorized to speak on behalf of the protesters. Do you know what I'm referring to?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do. Vaguely I do, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have an interaction with Mr. Dichter where you discussed who was authorized to speak on behalf?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My interactions with him were very -- like, I think if I added up all the entire time I've ever spent with him, I'd be lucky if it was 15, 20 minutes that I've ever spent in a room with him. So I can't really say for certain when or what was ever discussed with him. I was just not interacting with him at all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to move forward a bit -- well, not that much forward, a day forward to your meeting with Steve Kanellakos ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- which, again, the Commission has already heard a fair bit of evidence about. But I take it you recall meeting with Mr. Kanellakos?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you want to meet with Mr. Kanellakos?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I actually didn't. I didn't. I had grown incredibly frustrated with the Police Liaison Officers that I was dealing with, and I had requested through them to talk to an Inspector. And I had also made that same concern known to the Police Liaison Officer from the Ontario Provincial Police. And I didn't want to interact with the two Sergeants that I had been dealing with anymore. I wanted somebody who was in a better position to make decisions and, also, I wasn't a hundred percent sure that our concerns were being raised up the chain of command in a way that I was comfortable with. And that's not to suggest that, you know, the two officers from Ottawa Police were bad people or anything like that. It's just I didn't get the sense that they were taking us as seriously as I would have hoped. And so I was requesting to not talk to them anymore. I wanted an Inspector. And I was led to believe that I would be talking to an Inspector one evening, and I was waiting patiently in a room by myself to speak to the Inspector, and this mystery Inspector never arrived, even though I was led to believe I would get one. So I walked away from the meeting when I found out I wasn't going to be talking to somebody more senior, and the next day, I believe, is when the offer came to us, or to me, to meet with somebody at the City. I -- and I had no interest in meeting anybody from the City at that point. I knew where my focus needed to be was with the police. I wasn't interested in any level of the City.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can I pull up OPS8527? Could we go to page 3? So, Mr. Marazzo, you're not involved in this email chain, so ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- but this is an email chain within the Ottawa Police Service. And if we can scroll up just a little bit higher, so we can see -- this is an email from John Ferguson to Mark Patterson and Robert Drummond. Do you see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M'hm. Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Mr. Ferguson?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not to my knowledge.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we can scroll down? So we say here, "One of our teams has already been out [to] Rideau/Sussex to speak with [the] representatives of that group." And it goes on and it says, "In regards to the main convoy our PLT members are currently walking [...] red zone[s] with one of the main organizers Tom Marazzo who is responsible for 322 trucks..." Do you see that there?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then if we could scroll up a bit further? So this is another -- this is now an email from Mr. -- I forget his rank, so I'm going to call him Mr. Patterson. And it says, "PLT members continued their conversations with Mr. Marazzo this evening. He has requested a meeting with an elected official or [City level --] City Manager level member." Do you see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall, now that you've seen this, ever being the one who requested the meeting?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From my recollection, I never had any interest in meeting with any of the elected officials in the city. I was perfectly satisfied to deal directly with the police. I wanted an Inspector. I didn't really feel that -- I certainly had no interest in meeting with the Mayor. Steve K. was -- you know, when I finally met with him I realized that maybe that was an error, that it was good to meet with Steve. But I certainly never requested, to my knowledge, to speak with any of the municipal level elected officials.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You can take that down. So we saw in the press conference you were talking, and in your answer about the press conference, you were talking about the importance of engaging with Government and speaking with Government.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I appreciate you changed your mind after you met with Steve K. but why wouldn’t you want to meet with a City official?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Because really at the time I believe that was -- if I’m understanding the time right -- the timeline correctly, this is the next day after the raid at Coventry. I believe the Coventry raid was the sixth; that was the seventh. I wanted to deal directly with the police because I felt that the police were the ones that were getting the most pressure and I thought that I would be able to have a conversation with the police and try to work with them, build a rapport, because I wasn’t getting anywhere, that I felt, with the two police liaison sergeants I was dealing with. I felt that if we could develop a better rapport with the police, then things would change. Second to that is, the Police Services Board meeting that we had seen the rhetoric from Diane Dean, was just incredible. And I don’t know if that meeting was before or after the 7th. We just knew we needed to deal with the police.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Wilson mentioned in his testimony on more than one occasion that you had a sense that Former Chief Sloly was -- you were concerned about the pressure he was under; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, I had seen the recording of the Police Services Board meeting that Diane Dean had been the Chair of the Police Services Board at the time, and I was extremely concerned about the things that I had witnessed her say on the video. And so I wanted to see the reaction from Chief Sloly. And I got a little bit more concerned again so I rewound it and I watched it again; I watched her comments; I watched his reaction and I knew right there and then that the situation had fundamentally changed for all of us, them as well as us. And I realized that if we didn’t do something to take the pressure off of the Chief, things were going to dramatically change for the worse. And so that’s when we started to completely re-shift our focus to taking the pressure off the Chief, thereby taking the pressure off of the individual police officers and hopefully ourselves.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And, again, we heard Mr. Wilson this morning; he described that after the meeting with Mr. Kanellakos there was an initial effort ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- to move the trucks from Rideau Sussex to Wellington, and as I understand it, that effort was unsuccessful because the police ultimately didn’t move the barricades that would be necessary to do that; did Mr. Wilson have that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He did, but I think I heard -- we actually had -- we were -- to use a football analogy, we were on the one-yard line with all the trucks on that corner. And Eva and I had spent hours on that corner. Eva was talking with the Polish truckers, I was talking with the English-speaking French truckers. We spent hours there. And we finally got -- because Sergeant Lee was there and despite his best efforts, sometimes he can be a little bit hostile. And we -- I had asked the truckers to basically, as a group, come to an agreement with themselves and then also elect two people to go in and deal directly with Sergeant Lee, because I was actually concerned that if he went into the center of those 80 truckers, he would do something that would put his own safety at risk. So instead of him going to them, I said you elect two people, come out and then we’ll talk. And then Sergeant Lee got that phone call. He walked away and he came back and the look on his face said everything. I knew that he had just had the carpet pulled out from under his legs and he said “There’s no deal”. And so I was very concerned. I knew I couldn’t go back to the truckers and say, “Hey, we spent all day convincing you to do this and now the police have reneged on it”. I knew that there would be no further chance of ever getting them to even be open to the idea of moving had I gone back and delivered that message to them. So it was -- we were there; we were there that night to move them. And I just basically went back and I said, “Listen guys, it’s a safety issue; we’re not going to move at night because it’s too dangerous for the safety of people with decreased visibility. That’s all I could come up with at the time to satisfy everybody.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then Mr. Wilson talked about another attempt that was made on February the 10th and then there was -- which was -- did not proceed.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I take it you agree with Mr. Wilson?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Absolutely, yes.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So then we come to the agreement with the Mayor and there was a meeting on February 13th at City Hall; were you at that meeting?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The one with Inspector Drummond, Kim Ayotte and Steve K.”
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
That’s our understanding of who was there.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I was at that meeting.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I appreciate at that point in time; it’s the case that you had indicated that you wouldn’t be able to move trucks off Rideau/Sussex; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I believe at that meeting we were just there to go over more of the details on how we could properly do that and then reposition -- or redistribute the trucks in different locations. That’s what my recollection of what the intent of that meeting was and the discussion. And I believe Kim Ayotte or Inspector Drummond were the ones that brought the map and we were looking at the map from sort of trying to work out how to redistribute that based on the map that they had marked themselves.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Superintendent Drummond testified that at that meeting it was represented that there was two locations where the organizers did not believe they would get by and one was Rideau/Sussex and one was with the Coventry group. Do you recall anyone at the meeting from the protestors side indicating that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe that it was indicated that it would be more difficult given the events of the previous two days, the prior two days; it would be more work, more challenging but I also believe that there was a will on, you know, our part to go up and we thought we could actually get it done.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I want to talk briefly now about the final days that you were in Ottawa. After February 17th and after the Emergencies Act was invoked, was it your understanding that protestors were allowed to enter into what’s called the “Red Zone”?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If they were on foot.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was the basis of your understanding that they could enter if they were on foot?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just based on some of the briefings from Keith Wilson and discussions with Eva; and not with vehicles, clearly, and I don’t believe they would have been successful trying to get in with a vehicle anyway.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And up until at least the 14th you had been in daily contact with police liaisons; is that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any contact with them after the invocation of the Emergencies Act and did they give you any indication whether or not you were allow -- whether or not protestors on foot were allowed in the Red Zone?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I don’t think that my conversations with my regular police liaisons were like that. I did receive one phone call from an unknown OPP officer who said that he was the guy that they call for really difficult negotiations. I don’t know who that person was; I just know he was OPP and he had a lot of extensive experience with negotiating. And I knew from that phone call that the mass arrests were imminent. I didn’t get a date or a time, I just got -- I understood the vocabulary in the context of his comments. He didn’t come out and tell me exactly when they would come in and start making mass arrests, but I knew that it was imminent.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when that phone call was?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was right -- I believe it was right after the Emergencies Act was invoked. It might have been the 15th. I can’t be certain of that detail and I have no idea who that officer was.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of the TikTok video that’s been discussed a couple of times in which Mr. Wilson explains that protestors are allowed to continue to protest peacefully?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I hadn’t seen that until I was here in the audience seeing that.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction to seeing it now?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No real reaction.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there at any point when it became clear to you that the police were not going to allow protestors on foot to be in the Red Zone?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not until the first day when they started attacking people up in front of the Senate.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when -- what day was that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 18th.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And during that time when the police began clearing the protesters, did anyone from the police ever indicate to you that there was an area where protesters could go to protest?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you make any -- did you ask whether there was anywhere that ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is it something that crossed your mind?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, not at that time. That’s not really where my head space was. I was quite concerned about the things that I had personally witnessed that day. I was there when the two people were trampled by the horse. I had seen some things that I never thought that I would see in this country.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I’ve run past my time so I will ask you one last question which is, is there anything else that you think is important that we should ask you about?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First up is the Government of Canada, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Marazzo.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Hello.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I’ll just have a few questions for you but I’ll start with where my friend started you with. And for the record, I’m Brendan van Neijenhuis, one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. You described this call with an OPP officer that you weren’t sure of exactly which officer it was in which it was indicated to you that the police were going to enforce; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you saw earlier today the video on TikTok of Mr. Wilson advising people they could remain there on foot?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you yourself acknowledged that this was not in fact the case; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I’m sorry, I’m not understanding.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
That people were not permitted to remain in the red zone on foot.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I thought that -- actually, at the time, I thought that that was somewhat questionable, that you would be within your right to be -- from my conversations and the briefing from Keith, that you would be within your right to be in the red zone. I just didn’t think you’d get a vehicle in there but that you could remain there as long as you weren’t, you know, bringing in a vehicle or anything like that.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
The call you described, you thought it was on the 15th, shortly after the Emergency Act was invoked on the 14th?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I -- it’s in and around there. I don’t know the specific date or the time that I received that phone call. I just know that that phone call was somewhat impactful, enough for me to remember. And it was a short call.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to HRF00001510? I’m showing you a copy of this email which appears to be an email from Eva Chipiuk to, among others, yourself and Mr. Wilson; do you see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And she is attaching a document that I don’t think we have but it’s a document entitled “The Right to Protest”; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
M’hm, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And she indicates -- and I guess this is relaying some advice received from Sayeh Hassan, Barrister and Solicitor; do you see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And she’s indicating -- or passing along a note to you and Mr. Wilson that says: "I’ve drafted something on the right to protest by have taken the cautious approach because I don’t know the emergency orders are but it’s my understanding that they can limit the right to protest. And while that can be challenged in court, at the moment, people who do not comply may be arrested." Right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Then she goes on to say: "I think that if we’re advising people, it’s important to let them know all of the risks that they’re facing and let them make their own decisions." Right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that’s sound advice that you would agree with?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would. But I would also say that -- you know, combine that with the fact that Justice McLean had ruled that we were legally within our right to be there in Ottawa during -- to have this protest, and then, you know, you’re seeing an email from a lawyer who is saying that it is, you know, “my understanding”. So if it is not completely set in concrete for a lawyer, what chance do we have for having a definitive bit of legal advice that we can make a 100-percent absolute decision on what is going to happen to us if we remain.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
So you had an interpretation of Justice McLean’s order; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I had -- just from what I was briefed on, the result, and that -- that -- I do remember reading the decision. And I’m not -- again, I’m not a lawyer so when I’m reading it, it’s from a very unsophisticated perspective. But I do remember reading the part where it said, to the effect, that we had a legal right to be there.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
All right. Well, you’re not a lawyer but Ms. Chipiuk is a lawyer and Sayeh Hassan, you understand, is a lawyer as well?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I see there on the email that they are -- this person a lawyer.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Did you take any steps to relay the risks the people are facing so that they could make their own decision with respect to the possibility that they would be arrested if they did not comply?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe we handed out a French/English, double-sided piece of paper that we printed to everybody -- I think we printed out hundreds of copies and it from the pro bono legal team that we had -- that if people were arrested that was a description of what their rights would be and also the phone number to call if should happen to them.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, sir, you’re publishing a -- I understand you’re publishing a book which you intend to release on February the 14th of next year; is that right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you’ve selected that date because it’s the same date on which the report of this Commission must be tabled?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it’s the one-year anniversary of the Emergency Act being invoked.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Oh, I see. You’ve been attempting to raise money for the publication of this book through a fundraiser on the website GiveSendGo; correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, because I have a team that is helping me and they also need -- well, they need support.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sure. Could we go to COM00000415? Sir, this is an affidavit that you swore in support of an application by Canadian Frontline Nurses; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And if we could just go down to the very bottom of the affidavit to find the jurat date. There we go. You swore this, it appears, on March the 4th of this year?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we could go back up to paragraph 4, now, here you say that you arrived in Ottawa on January the 30th with the intention of peacefully participating in the protest; correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you told us shortly ago that your arrival was due to the invitation extended to you to come to Ottawa by James Bauder?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you understood he was asking for your assistance in providing some form of organization to support his objectives as part of the group identifying itself as the Convoy?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I wouldn’t say “as his” because, to me, it was the convoy. I -- he was somebody participating in the convoy, but yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, so whoever convoy is ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- that’s who you were being asked to help ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- by Mr. Bauder?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you became familiar, you told us, with the Memorandum of Understanding that he was circulating and intended to deliver to the Governor General and the Speaker of the Senate; right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. I don’t know who he delivered it to. I just recall the Governor General was a name that was thrown out there.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Let’s go to COM00000886, which is a copy of the memorandum, just for clarity.
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, COM00000886 appears to be some sort of social media post.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me, it’s 866. I misspoke. And in fairness to you, Mr. Marazzo, you were clear in saying that this was, at the very least, not a well written document?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From what I remember reading it, I was -- I didn’t believe it was a very well written document. I knew by looking at, it wasn’t written by a lawyer.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you look at the second page of the document, looking at the top here of the page, there's a list of the parties, in effect, to this Memorandum of Understanding. Do you see anything in there, the bold-faced lettering there at the top?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
So one group is the concerned Canadian citizens, Indigenous community, and permanent residents ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- represented by the Bauders and Mr. Broadman?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Yes, yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then the next party is the Senate, as ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- as represented by the speaker?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then it's the governor general?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we go to page 2 in article 3 -- stop there -- you see the notion here is that there would be a committee formed between the concerned citizens and the senate and the governor general, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that that committee then would, under paragraph -- sub-paragraph (e) there, instruct all levels of the federal, provincial, territorial, and municipal governments to cease and desist, et cetera, et cetera, provisions related to COVID-19, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you go over to page 3 and look at item (j) there, you see that in exchange for this, the concerned citizens will immediately stop Operation BearHug Ottawa demonstration convoy. You see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And so in effect -- and that was Mr. Bauder's name for the occupation and -- or blockades or what have you in Ottawa? It was Operation BearHug?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I have no idea what he called it, and I don't know what Operation BearHug Ottawa is.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. At any rate, you recognized that this document presented a something of a nonsensical idea?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would agree with that.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you insisted that it be withdrawn and retracted publicly, and that -- and this was then done, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s my understanding.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you understood that any legislative action would require the participation of the elected representatives at the federal, provincial, and municipal levels, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
In fact, if you go to article 7 of the MOU -- excuse me, article 6 -- you'll see that it is, in fact, supposed to be construed in accordance with the laws of Canada, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now, you can ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Can I just -- looking at this, this is a 15-page document. This is not, from my recollection, what I've read.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
This is not what I read during my time in Ottawa. I believed it to be more of a two-part, two- page document. I don’t recall ever looking at this particular document broken down like this.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Well, I'm sure you - --
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It was a media release of some kind they put out, but I don’t remember ever reading this.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, I'll ask Mr. Bauder about it tomorrow to see if there's a distinction. You indicated in your press conference on February 9th, as we just saw, that you were offering yourself as willing to sit down with the Conservative Party, the Bloc Quebecois, the NDP, and the governor general as a -- some sort of a representative, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. So in my -- I -- from my perspective, I was thinking not even more as a mediator. It was really just an SOS, to be honest with you. It was just a little call for help and inspiration, stop ignoring us, come and sit at a table. We've got a table. You guys -- you know, we'll get you a conference room, but just do something instead of taking cheap photo ops and opportunities with people and making this into a political joke for you guys. Get off your butts and come here and do something meaningful for the, you know, six million Canadians that are affected by this crap in this country right now.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You had no interest in meeting with municipal elected officials, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, because our issues were not with the municipal government. Our issue was with the federal government. We were here to end federal mandates.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
On February the 13th, you had a meeting with Ottawa Police with respect to negotiations, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In what regard?
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You had a meeting in the evening with Supt. Drummond and ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- others from the Ottawa Police?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. He just -- he was the only police officer in the room.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Right. And you had commented that you wanted to have an inspector to deal with on behalf of Ottawa Police, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You understand that a superintendent is a rank above an inspector?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Can we go back to your affidavit, COM00000415, and it'll be page 4? Now, could we go to paragraph 17, I believe it is? You indicate here that: "The freezing of bank accounts in the wake of the invocation of the Emergencies Act has left me real concern that authorities are surveilling me and may arbitrarily charge and arrest me although I've committed no crime." Right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
"I'm constantly looking over my shoulder. I am hesitant to leave my house. I have left my home only twice since I returned from Ottawa."
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Right? "I am concerned about travelling with my children, as I'm concerned they'll be taken away from me by Children's Aid in the even the police decide to charge and arrest me."
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, because I was informed after leaving Ottawa that there was a task force of RCMP, OPP, Ottawa Police, as well as the statements publicly made by Acting Chief Bell that said that you would be identified, investigated, and there would be criminal charges and other punishments coming your way. So that statement is true, because from my perspective, I was one of the ones that was not charged during the time in Ottawa, but I was led to believe that I was under investigation and I have since learned different versions of that. But it was my understanding that I was being investigated as the 42 of us on the -- one of the lists were identified to me.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You've obviously overcome this fear to be able to be with us today?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I asked Keith Wilson a few months ago when would I find out that I'm no longer being investigated, and when will I find out that I'm not going to be charged?
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You had overcome this fear by May the 4th of 2022 when the election period began in the Ontario provincial election, fair?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that election was held on June the 2nd of 2022?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you ran in the riding, I understand, of Peterborough Kawartha for the Ontario party?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you there received 1,973 votes amounting to approximately 3.8 percent of the vote in the riding, right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to PB.CAN.00001774? I just want to put up a brief excerpt of the video. It'll be just at the very beginning.
The Registrar (POEC)
Counsel, 1174 were the last four numbers that you just ---
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
One-seven-seven-four (1774). Yeah, I've done it again. Excuse me. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Sir, how do you know Mr. Mackenzie?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
He does -- he has a podcast and he does a lot of political satire and comedy. He does some serious videos sometimes. He is the creator of a fictitious meme on the internet known as Diagolon, which I assume what you're going to ask me about, and the vice-president of Diagolon being a time-travelling cocaine addicted goat. That is just an internet meme that has no meaning at all, and I had spoken to Jeremy the first time when I was in Ottawa on the phone. And the second time I spoke to Jeremy was when the Liberal government was debating whether or not they should use the Emergency Act, and they were citing this fictitious goat that time travels as a domestic terrorist group and justification for invoking the Emergency Act. And I saw a video that Jeremy and his friends were doing, and they were laughing hysterically, showing clips of the government actually talking about Diagolon as being a real thing. Everybody knew it was a joke. When I saw the video I contacted Jeremy and I said, “Tell me everything there is to know about Diagolon.” He said, “If you draw a diagonal line from Alaska through Alberta to Texas it makes a diagonal line. And that’s why it’s called Diagolon. They’re the only states and provinces that don’t have mask mandates. And he used it as a joke. He made the symbol for Diagolon in a second on his cell phone because it’s a joke. And it is meaningless. He did it to attract attention for people to come to a barbecue and to have a lot of fun that were, you know, people wanted to have a barbecue without masks on, a bunch of strangers that didn’t know each other. And yet here he was, watching member of Parliament and the Liberal Party actually seriously stating that the reason for invoking the Emergency Act was because of Diagolon. Like, it was the most outrageous ridiculous thing I had ever seen. And I think this Commission should be investigating that as the biggest Intelligence joke of the last decade. So it’s a joke. Diagolon is a joke. It’s not even a real thing.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon. My name is Paul Champ. I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a couple of questions, Mr. Marazzo, following your testimony.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I note we didn’t get an interview summary for you from the Commission counsel. Is that because you refused to sit down with Commission counsel for an interview?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. I believe my lawyers felt that I would not have my Charter rights protected if I voluntarily gave a statement.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then turning to your activities in Ottawa in February earlier this year, which hotel did you stay in again?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The ARC.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And who paid for your hotel? Mr. Bourgault, I gather?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It’s possible that he paid for it but I cannot confirm who paid for my hotel room. I just know I didn’t.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you stayed in a hotel room for about three weeks and you don’t know who paid for it?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I do not know for a fact who paid for it. I spoke to Joseph’s stepson, Ryan. But I don’t know if he was paying for the rooms or he just had control of a block on behalf of somebody else. I don't really know because they belonged to some sort of an organization and I don’t know if it was the organization or Joe or somebody specifically who did it. I just know that I went to Ryan when I needed a room.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we know through a variety of means that a significant amount of money was raised with respect to the convoy demonstration. Did you have some of your expenses covered, aside from the hotel?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was occasions where I was buying my own food. And whatever food was donated in the conference room that we had -- like I said, I was sick So I ended up losing 14 pounds and I've gained more than that back. And I wasn’t eating very much, The few times I ate I actually bought myself if I wanted more of a meal.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you didn’t get any cash to cover any of your travel expenses or anything like that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir. No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you've told us that you were doing logistics for the convoy but it’s a little bit unclear to me exactly what you were doing. You were managing truck locations?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Anything else?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, when I initially got there I was focused in on the logistics. And then after the raid at Coventry I had notified a former military officer that I personally knew and I asked him if he would come to Ottawa and help me. And he did. And so I was able to actually hand off some of those day to day things that I was working on and then move towards -- so my role actually did transition less day to day logistics, more strategically working with Keith and Eva to get this -- get something going here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And I heard you talking about the transition but it was unclear to me what you transitioned from. What logistics were you doing?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, I really was directing the people on the ground, you know, figuring -- like, basically steering people in the direction of things that they needed to focus on -- truck locations. There was occasions where we wanted to -- people wanted to move trucks around.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But that became a little bit difficult as well. And then oftentimes I would deal directly with the police so that became something that was impacting my day greatly. I would have conversations with the liaison sergeants and then go back and talk to the truckers. So physically was I out there filling trucks up? No, I wasn’t. But I was trying to facilitate, you know, organizing that better, developing trucker captain organizations and stuff like that, only to find that really the truckers were organically doing that themselves.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you told us that you were trying to manage where the trucks were, figure out where they all were and map them out, how many trucks, and try to get an accurate count and so forth.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But it was put to you by Commission counsel about Kent Street. Now, we’ve heard police evidence, evidence from a resident and actually Chris Barber himself testify that Kent Street was almost completely blocked throughout the entire convoy. Every once ion a while the emergency would get it open but it would almost instantly be closed up again. And predominantly there was no emergency lane on that street. So I'm surprised, Mr. Marazzo, you don’t remember that one street.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, that’s ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why is that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At some point I had the two people that I was working with that actually started to monitor that -- my friend that I just mentioned, that was retired military as well as one other individual. And every time that the -- the other issue was this that we recognized was that the police liaison teams were going and talking to everybody. So they would talk to me, leave, and go have the same exact conversation with somebody else. And there was multiple teams and the information was getting very confusing. So for example, they would talk to me and if you were there they would go over and talk to you and say the same thing. And then everybody is chasing their tail going in circles. So at some point we just kind of -- people took on responsibilities for certain functions and they just would maintain that. And so the two individuals I’m speaking about, when it came to safety, the police would go to them for safety lanes. They would immediately go out and do the best they could to clear it. But then again, sometimes they got blocked.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s helpful. I must have misunderstood your evidence. I thought that’s what you were doing. You would agree with me, Mr. Marazzo, city buses -- there’s no way they could get through anywhere downtown, correct? That’s an easy one.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would say -- because I believe if I was on Metcalfe is what the ARC was on. I believe they could have got through there. I don't see any reason why not. There was days I went out there and the street was wide open.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A bus could have gone up and down Metcalfe all day long, back and forth, I guess?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. Well, I don’t want to say “all day long” but I mean, there were several times where, you know, it was wide open. I moved my vehicle right in front of the ARC Hotel on that street and no problems.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But presumably if people wanted to go anywhere other than up and down Metcalfe they wouldn’t be able to access the city bus.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
As you got closer to Wellington, it became increasingly more difficult.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Similarly and particularly, individuals who require Para Transpo buses, they weren’t getting anywhere through downtown, correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Do you mean the shorter buses that are meant for wheelchairs?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s correct.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t think that that’s entirely accurate. I think again -- I would say that for that type of transportation as you got a little closer to Wellington it would probably be more of a challenge. But it would be up to the individual bus driver himself or herself to see if they could negotiate through those intersections.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn’t observe any though?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just moving to a different topic, police leaks -- you were getting information about what the police were planning ahead of time through sympathetic police officers; is that right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
That’s my understanding but they were coming to me directly. They were coming from other sources and then I would have conversations with people that had -- that information was passed to them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were kind of like the clearing house for the intelligence, I guess, for the convoy?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No. I tried to decentralize that as well in the sense that you could -- you know, I wasn’t a police officer. I had worked al lot with police officers in my military career but I wasn’t a police officer. So we had police officers that were retired that -- you know, everybody knows Danny Bulford was one. If I had questions, you know, maybe him or Vince Gircys maybe. But at that point -- at some point I stopped actually caring about certain things, and I just left it into other people's more expertise or more capable hands.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Moving on to another topic, you testified about the slow roll ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- Pat King's slow roll around the airport, and that you cooperated, to some extent, assisting with that; correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just so much as I wanted to make sure that there would never be a complete blockage or stoppage of operations for the airport.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And but you also told us there was some value to it as well.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That it was sending a message to the City that the vehicles could move around and could move to other areas of the city ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- if necessary?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And that discussion centred around what happened at Coventry when the police went in on the Sunday night ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- and raided and stole the fuel and stole the food. And my conversations with the Ottawa Police the next day was, you know, if you want to provoke a reaction from this organic movement, from individual truckers, that's the best way to go about it, and if you want to keep it as civil as it has been, don't get it -- don't put us in a situation where there has to be a tit-for-tat kind of a situation. And I said, "And by the way, we will never exceed the level of stupidity that you guys are doing to us. We might match it, but we'll never exceed it. And by the way, your Coventry was your freebie. We're not -- you know, we're not going to do anything because of what you did at Coventry because we don't see the value in it. We don't want to escalate this into something terrible." And so we just tried to always keep the temperature down, keep the tone down with them, but, you know, they were incredibly provoking constantly.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the slow roll was a warning to the City that if the police did some kind of enforcement action, the truckers might retaliate in some way?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't -- you know, I'm not comfortable with the word retaliate, but, you know, you could split hairs on that word, but it wasn't meant as a retaliation. It was meant really to send the signal that, you know, we've got the ability to move around, and do we want to escalate to that level? No. What we're trying to say to you is that if we really, really want to escalate to the level you guys are ramping up, then we can play that game with you, but we don't want to play that game. So they'll do the slow roll just to let you know that it is possible.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just to be clear what we're talking about here, the game meaning the police enforcing the law. If the police attempt to enforce the law, the truckers, given their size and their numbers, will escalate towards the City of Ottawa and the residents; correct? That's what you mean?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don't really -- I didn't see it lawful to go in and steal people's fuel or their food. I didn't actually see it as a lawful act on behalf of the police.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I saw it as theft.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- with respect to Mr. King, Mr. King you understood, people didn't want to deal with him because some of his comments online about bullets and so forth were distasteful; is that right?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, that was the sense I got, but I knew -- somebody had also told me, those comments were like for two years prior to the convoy and it was just a complete headpiece by somebody, whoever put that video out there. That it was just meant to discredit him and make us look bad. And it was a video ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don't think Mr. King was discrediting himself by saying the Prime Minister's going to catch a bullet?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
From the testimony I saw here in the room the other day, the context of that had something to do with something completely unrelated to this convoy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about his online comments about race and the Anglo-Saxon race, were those kinds of comments discrediting the movement?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I know nothing of those comments.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Mr. Barber, his online racist comments, was that discrediting the movement?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I believe he owned up to that himself yesterday.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And then finally, Diagolon, you said that this was a joke, and it was about creating a diagonal state of people who don't wear masks. Isn't it, in fact, the case that the concept for the images of the diagonal state where there would only be white people who would live in it, and they could get all non-white people out; correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
All right. So ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Hey, please.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- the ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just wait a moment, please. Let's try and keep it quiet, please, while we hear the evidence. This is the equivalent of a court in the sense that we have sworn evidence and we'd like to keep a proper atmosphere. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If you were to meet some of Jeremy MacKenzie's friends and the ones that were on the video that I was describing earlier where they were laughing about the Liberal Party using Diagolon as a justification, you'll see clearly that one of Jeremy's best friends is a black man. There's -- I don't -- I can't even comment on how somebody ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does he have a Jewish accountant as well?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Sorry?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does he have a Jewish accountant as well?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- don't even know what that means.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- have you looked at Mr. MacKenzie's online rants? You've seen them? Do you find -- do you think that ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I've seen some of his rants and some of them -- you know, some of the things he says I don't agree with and some of the ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
--- things I think he's absolutely spot on, but that's up to me to make a decision on whether or not I find that the content is appropriate or not. And I have seen Jeremy say things I don't like, and I've seen Jeremy say things that I thought were brilliant.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Apologies for the delay. I have no questions. Thank you. Sorry, I wasn't plugged in. I apologize for the delay. I have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Commissioner, but you may have missed Ottawa Police on the list.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I did. But we'll get back to you after; okay?
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Former Chief Sloly?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Commissioner, I believe my friends from the Ottawa Police Service have more time than have I and probably make sense for them to go ahead, if they're prepared to, if it's your ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine. I will concede to counsel's agreement. Okay. Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JESSICA BARROW
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good afternoon. My name is Jessica Barrow, and as you've now heard, I am counsel for the Ottawa Police Service.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I just have a couple of questions, and I wonder if we can start with the document OPS14504. Have you seen this document before?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I'm not entirely sure.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
If you read through it, and obviously we can give you a minute, it's a document that was -- we've heard was circulated to the protesters and it's dated February 17th. It was circulated by the Ottawa Police Service.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. I'm -- my recollection, I know there was a letter that was posted all over the city. I honestly never bothered to read it. I know there was something that was posted places, and I know there was two different coloured ones, but that's the extent of my knowledge of the documents.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So you testified earlier that perhaps there was a lack of clarity around whether you could be in the red zone on foot at this point, but that it was your -- it was your understanding that you could not be there with a vehicle; is that correct? Do I have that correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, what I meant, like, as in you weren't going to be able to bring in a large truck. I wasn't really thinking about it in terms of individual vehicles. I know my vehicle was there and I got 5 parking tickets in 24 hours and my car hadn't even moved. So I knew there was an issue with vehicles, but I -- my mind at the time was focussed on people that wanted to come to the city came in on foot.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Well, let's take a look at this document then. If we could scroll to the top a little bit? It says we want to inform you that, "You will face severe penalties under provincial and federal legislation if you do not cease further unlawful activity and remove your vehicle and your property immediately from all unlawful protest sites." And then if we scroll down a little, it says you may be arrested, your vehicle could be seized, a few other issues. Those delivering -- you can see at the bottom, "Those delivering fuel and other supplies can be charged. Persons travelling to the unlawful protest sites to participate or support the unlawful demonstration can be charged." So does that perhaps clarify the question of whether you could be there at this point in time on February 17th?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, that's based on, you know, a document that was posted around the city that was not actually served to me personal, so I didn't look at it. I can't really explain why I couldn't -- I didn't look at it, but you're posting that, but I'm getting -- I was getting different interpretation from the lawyers that were accompanying us.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. So you’re getting an interpretation from your lawyer ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. And the interpretation from you.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- that the Ottawa Police are circulating information that you’re choosing not to read that is telling you, that if you continue to stay here, you may get arrested; is that fair?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I vaguely even recall ever seeing it. Like I might have seen something posted in an elevator once; that’s all I even remember noticing that there was something there and I -- but honestly, until the violence came to the protestors from the police, I didn’t see this as something that we -- I didn’t see it as something that needed to be abided by because it was a peaceful protest and I knew that Justice McLean had already ruled that we had a right to be there. Whether or not the Emergency Act was invoked, you know, we’re getting conflicting information from the Police, we’re getting -- we have information that I trust a lot more from our legal team, because we were dealing with pro bono lawyers; there was five of them that did criminal law and we had the two lawyers that were on the ground with us the entire time. So we were there to do a protest and we took the Judge’s -- I personally took the Judge’s word as well as Keith and Eva’s word, that what we were doing was lawful. And so that’s how I conducted myself, according to that.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So I respect the fact that you may have been operating on legal advice, but I guess my question to you is, it wasn’t a question of there being a lack of clarity from the Ottawa Police Service, and in fact it was just that you disagreed with the direction of the Ottawa Police Service?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the time I wasn’t really considering that as direction because at no time did the police actually come up to me and say that in no uncertain terms. It was something that was stuck to the wall on a piece of paper. So when it’s stuck to the wall and not handed to me, it didn’t really seem overly credible. And I don’t want to say credible, but if it was so important to them I would have thought that any one of those police liaison officers would have walked up and handed it to me and explained it to me, either a puppet show or a box of crayons so that I could understand it, but that was never the case. It was just posted on a wall.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Were you aware that there was also social media posts in relation to these warnings?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Were you monitoring the Ottawa Police Service’s social media?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was not; I was not.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. You indicated -- you referred to police violence ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- starting on the –- I presume on the 18th of February; correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And you indicated that you were watching that from your hotel room?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I was there -- I was only 15 feet away from the horses when they trampled the two people.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
So then you would have heard prior to the arrest taking place multiple verbal warnings from police officers indicating that if people didn’t depart, they risked being arrested; is that ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I did not hear them verbally. The front line of police officers were extremely quiet. The front row of protestors were trying to engage the police in dialogue and to convince them to stop doing what they were doing. And there was no reaction from the police on the front line. There’s no shouts; there was no -- I didn’t hear even so much as a bullhorn telling the crowd to disperse during the time that I was there on the line, from what I had personally observed.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so if there’s evidence to suggest that there were sort of loud speakers or whatever we’re calling them, indicating that people needed to leave or they could be arrested; you just didn’t hear that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did not hear that personally; if that’s what was done, I did not personally hear that.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And notwithstanding that the police were obviously present and ready to arrest because they weren’t leaving, they weren’t leaving, correct?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
They were not leaving.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOM CURRY
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Mr. Marazzo, Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly. Just on the point that my friend Ms. Barrow was asking you about, can you just help us. I thought I saw in the statement -- and we don’t have to go back to it -- but just tell me if I’ve got this right. That you encouraged the protestors towards the end as this enforcement action rolled out, you encouraged protestors to leave the protest site rather than be arrested?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe that to be the case. I never encouraged anyone to leave until the 19th.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
On the 19th, maybe I had that date wrong then.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
So beginning on the 19th ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- did you then change your approach and encourage protestors to leave rather than be arrested?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
After what I saw personally on the City, the level of violence that the police had brought to the protestors, what I saw, I was so disgusted. That day Danny Bulford had also been arrested later in the afternoon. And the following morning on the 19th I had a meeting with the remaining people that I knew to be leaders or truck captains in my hotel room with other people and we -- my advice to everybody was to depart the City of Ottawa and to peacefully withdraw, but that would be -- it would have to be up to the individual owner/operators of their own vehicles. They have to decide for themselves, but our recommendation was that they left the City of Ottawa as peacefully as they could, and I -- at 10:03 in the morning I remember the phone call; I notified them and I said “We will peacefully withdraw; you need to move your concrete barriers and allow us to get fuel into the trucks and we will start making arrangements to leave as soon as possible”, but that each truck driver had to make their own individual decision. And, you know, there is a video of it I’m sure of me bringing it up, and you know, it was a very frustrating phone call that I had with the OPP, but I said we would recommend it. It's not my proudest moment if you do show the video; my language is terrible, but I was angry and I was frustrated, but I advised him to allow the truckers to leave. Move the concrete barriers because we couldn’t get out and allow us to get fuel because, you know, fuel was a bit of an issue trying to get out.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. And for the Commissioner’s purposes then, do you know how many of the protestors took the advice that you gave and left voluntarily?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was a group of protestors that were set up with tents; there was a -- it was an outdoor kitchen basically with a big pig roast and stuff and that individual who was -- I think owned that tent or was in control of that tent, had started to pack up and recommend to his people that it was time to leave. And I just know that various groups took the advice and some didn’t. But by the morning of the 19th, from our perspective, the violence just actually got worse. And when they moved down to the War Memorial, that’s when things got really quite disturbing about -- and even on the 18th things were incredibly disturbing. You know, you’ll hear testimony here I’m sure from Chris Deering, the horrific things that he had, and he's a combat veteran of Afghanistan. So after hearing that, and seeing the footage of all of that stuff, after that, there was no way there was any point in staying any longer. I mean I understand violence. There was no way those truckers were ever going to be able to repel the police, in any way.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
The truckers who -- those who remained?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Those who remained and those who didn’t -- were not allowed to get out because I think at that point in the 18th and 19th the police decided they’re going in and -- you know, we had seen the text messages of RCMP officers laughing and joking about bringing – like don’t do it all in one day, let us get our turn on the next day. The police were getting geared up; that was leaked to the alternative social media where they were joking and laughing about using jackboots on people.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Right. So just a couple of things then; you told the Commissioner that you were watching the interaction between the Police Services Board Chair ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
--- and Chief Sloly?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And did you form the conclusion that Chief Sloly’s support from the Police Services Board was -- had been badly effected, diminished?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, it was my understanding that it is against the law for a Police Services Board to direct police operations and from my perspective, what I was watching, was her covert or very -- I don’t know what the word is, but Diane Dean’s deep desire to start directing police operations to Chief Sloly. And when I listened to his response, I had to listen to it twice to understand what really was going on in that meeting. It was very clear to me that he was getting pressure from every different direction, especially because -- Diane Dean effectively was his boss and she was putting an enormous amount of pressure on him and combining that with all the other rhetoric from the mayor and the other politicians locally, it was my opinion that if we didn’t do something to help him, to take the pressure off of him specifically, there would be a very negative reaction from the entire Police Service of Ottawa.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
And you were attempting also, as I understand it, to take pressure off the -- from the residents.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And that was the strategy, was to take the pressure off the residents and thereby get less complaints to the police. And then if the politicians were getting less pressure, they would put less pressure on the Chief.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
You arrive -- you were there from the 30th on. Do I have it right that you understood, particularly having regard to your background in our armed forces, that the Ottawa Police Service, as a police service of local jurisdiction, did not have sufficient resources to manage and disperse the protesters on 30th, February 1st, whatever day you choose; is that -- was that a fair conclusion that you drew?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At that point it was far too early to tell because I knew that there was -- Parliamentary police were local, were here. I knew that there was -- Gatineau Police were close by; I knew OPP was in the area, and I knew there was probably RCMP in the area. But it was our -- or my belief, because I knew that the liaison teams were interacting with us, at least, that we had an exceptionally good chance to work with the police. This is why we made a concerted effort to constantly work with the police because we knew that, you know, we had a measure of power, in terms of the convoy itself. But they actually have the force, the physical force, to change the situation. And so we thought if we could just keep the temperature down constantly and effectively with the police, there wouldn’t be a need to bring in other police departments.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. One last thing, and please, can I ask to show the witness HRF1379. This is a short little statement that I think that you gave, I just want to make sure that I have you confirm it. This goes, I think, to your ability to manage some of the protesters. Other witnesses have told us about their -- the nature of the independent thinking, independent operator; you’ve experienced that too.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Page 5, please. Just a little higher, perhaps it starts on 4. A little higher, please. You’re just a -- I’m sorry; a little lower. There it is. “During the meeting...” -- do you see that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
“During the meeting Marazzo and Wilson said they would try to move trucks from residential areas downtown and clear the Rideau and Sussex intersection; police agreed to move their concrete barriers temporarily so the trucks could get onto Wellington St. The caveat, however, which Wilson and Marazzo knew all too well, was that no one could force the truckers to do anything they didn’t want to do.”
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
That remained true throughout?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Okay. Thank you. I don’t have any other questions for you. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
Alyssa Tomkins, Counsel (Ott)
All of the areas upon which we had intended to question have been canvassed. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. CCLA please.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Yes. Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Mr. Marazzo, my name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I want to ask you a few questions with respect to the Emergencies Orders. After the Emergencies -- the Federal Emergencies Act was invoked, were any of your personal or corporate bank accounts frozen?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. All of my bank accounts, my joint bank accounts with my former spouse, were all affected. My credit card that was on file with my son’s pharmacy were suspended. My former spouse, her credit rating was dropped 109 points. Yes, so everything was frozen; I had access to no money other than cash.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And so these were all your personal accounts, and not just ones that you hold individually, but also ones that you hold jointly with your ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- child and your former spouse?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes. They were joint -- joint accounts were frozen, as well as my ex-wife’s -- my first wife’s financial institution reached out and cautioned her that potentially her accounts were going to also be frozen; and I haven’t been with her in over a decade.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Mr. Marazzo, how long were your bank accounts frozen?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
During the entire time of the Emergency Act.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So until the Emergencies Act was revoked?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
My -- sorry; go ahead,
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Sorry; go ahead. No, no, go ahead.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was just going to say that luckily we had cash in the house because my son’s heart medication, we couldn’t purchase it; my account had been frozen. And if we didn’t have cash, he wouldn’t have been able to get his heart medication. He had -- a month and half previous had myocarditis and was on some pretty intense heart medication.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And were you given any information, either from the bank or from the police, as to how you -- how your bank accounts could be reopened?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I was never notified that my bank accounts had been frozen. And I was never notified that they would be, and I was never notified that they were reinstated, at no time.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So so did you find out they were frozen because you could no longer use your ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could no longer ---
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- cards?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Could no longer access any of our financial assets at all.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And were you -- and how did you find out that your bank accounts and assets were unfrozen; was it just because you were able to use them again?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We just continued -- once we discovered it, we would check every couple of hours to see if we had access to our own money.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Were you able to access your online banking?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just to get in -- you could log in but it -- there was a message on it that said access to your financial whatever was denied.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. Thank you very much Mr. Marazzo. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is Democracy Fund/JCCF.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ANTOINE D’AILLY
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Mr. Marazzo, I’ll be very brief today. You indicated at the beginning of your testimony ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a minute.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sorry; my name’s Antoine D’Ailly, counsel to Citizens for Freedom. You indicated near the beginning of your testimony today that you saw things you’d never thought you would see in Canada, and that those things may have formed part of your motivation for your participation in the convoy.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is that a reference to abuses of power? And what are some of those things that you saw that you never thought you would see?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Well, the biggest thing for me, which was incredible, was that informed consent was being absolutely ignored. This is, like, prior -- are you talking about prior to the convoy or just during?
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The things -- the things you saw that you never thought you would see, which would -- motivated you to participate.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It -- you know, if you were to look at what the City of Toronto was doing, because I was living, at the time, close. I was just in the Barry area, so I was looking at what the Toronto Police were doing, what the Premier was doing with all the lockdowns. The lockdowns made absolutely no sense. The vilification of Canadians by the Prime Minister of Canada was shocking; so deeply disturbing to hear him talk about Canadians the way he did. That’s just one of the examples. Premier Doug Ford, in the rhetoric that he had -- and the other big thing for me, which was really, really shocking to me, was that they did not exercise or use Emergency Management Ontario to manage this entire pandemic for this province. It was mindboggling to me, and I knew about them because I actually worked with the EMO representative, who was a retired Brigadier General, when I was posted to the Headquarters in Toronto. And so my expectation was to handle this pandemic, you would have used the very institution within each province that is meant to handle a pandemic. So I knew things were fundamentally upside down with the approach that the government was using. And you would see subsequent effects of those decisions, which were, you know, shut down a department store, stop selling kids clothing, and stuff like that. But you can go and get a case of beer, that’s no problem. Right? So there was -- there was a lot of stuff that were just so absurd. And, cumulatively, after a while that starts to build up this amount of anxiety and fear. And I know a lot of people that I was talking to, especially when I was campaigning, were recounting their time during the lockdowns. And they felt the same fear that I did of the police, which is really unusual. I didn’t want to go out in public because honestly, I thought that I was going to be -- it would take nothing for the police to come for any infraction and start arresting people for the most bizarre things. I mean, we saw a year and a half ago two Calgary police officers pointed a taser and threatened to arrest a young kid who was playing hockey out in Calgary, you know? And the next day, Police on Guard went public because there were law enforcement in this country that were just appalled by what was going on in this country, and they decided to start becoming public in defending what they thought was massive breaches of the Charter, which they spend their whole careers defending the Charter. And so when the police started to push back to organizations like Police on Guard or later on, the Mounties for Freedom, when the police started to push back, that was a sign that things had really, really gone off the rails, for me. So cumulatively, there were just too many things to ignore in this society right now. But I think the worst thing for me was when the convoy was rolling through and I wasn’t part of it, the statements coming from the prime minister of this country were terrifying, disgusting, just unbecoming of a prime minister of a country, you know, of people that actually voted him into represent, and he was acting like he was a king. And it was appalling. And it's certainly not what I joined the Canadian military to defend; nothing of the sort. So I just didn’t know how we could possibly call ourselves a free country any more if our prime minister was allowed to get away with the rhetoric he was getting away with. And nobody stood up until the truckers.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, thank you, and thank you for your service.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Convoy Organizers.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. Bath-Shéba Van den Berg for Freedom Corp. and the protestors. We have no questions for Mr. Marazzo. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHN MATHER
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Commissioner, just one area. Mr. Marazzo, you were asked a few questions with respect to Mr. Jeremy Mackenzie?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know of Mr. Mackenzie prior to coming to Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Just from what I saw on his social media, short videos, that’s all.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever met him prior to coming to Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware that he was also a former Canadian Forces member?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I was, which is one of the reasons why I followed him.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know that Mr. Mackenzie was in Ottawa at certain times during the protest?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I did.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Mr. Mackenzie in Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Not physically. I phoned him on two occasions and I had a couple of text messages with him back and forth.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have those text messages?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe I do. I'm on a different phone and they were just basically as a, "Hi, it's Tom. I want to have a phone call with you." There was -- I've had two phone calls with him during the time that I was in Ottawa.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You describe, I think, one of the phone calls. What was discussed on the other one?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The first one was -- I actually, now that I think about it, somebody that I knew had Jeremy's contact info and they reached out and said, "I just wanted to meet him," because to be honest, at the time, I was just a fan of what he was doing on his podcasts. I knew there was a veteran in town and I kind of wanted to get his thoughts. We had a conversation, reminisced about both being posted to CFB Petawawa. But then later on, the next phone call was when I saw the video of him laughing about what the -- what was going on in Parliament regarding Diagolon, I just called him and I said, "Tell me everything there is to know about Diagolon because we may get asked about it, and I'm just curious."
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who gave you Mr. Mackenzie's phone number?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I honestly don’t know. That was somebody that I probably met when I first got to Ottawa, and I did not know any single person. I never met even James Bauder until I stepped into the conference -- or into the lobby of the ARC and he brought me into the conference room. So I don’t even know who gave me his phone number.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you know the person might have Mr. Mackenzie's phone number?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's a good question. I can't -- the only thing I can remember, it was a female that gave the phone number, and I can't remember how they came to have his number.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have any communications or contact with anyone who was protesting or was in Coutts, Alberta while you were in Ottawa?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In Coutts? No, I had no communication with anyone in Coutts.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communication with anyone in any other -- at any of the other protest locations in Canada?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
There was one message that somehow came through either text or email from somebody that was in Windsor, and I don’t -- I cannot honestly -- I don't know who this person was. I know they were in Windsor and my only reaction was, "Whatever you do, make sure you keep at least one lane open across that bridge so that there can be traffic going back and forth."
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have a copy of that message?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I don’t believe I do. And I -- and because I don’t even know who the person was, I don’t. And to be honest, I really did not want to have contact with any other protest around the country. I had my hands full with what I was doing, and all of these convoys and protests were all organic. They started all naturally on their own from citizens that were absolutely fed up with what was happening to this society and this country. So I was perfectly happy to have no contact with any other protests other than the one I was involved in.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During your two conversations with Mr. Mackenzie, did he ever indicate to you that he was in contact with anyone in any of the other protests or occupations in Canada?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I just have a few short questions. Just following up on one of those, the penultimate question, you answered all of the protests across the country started organically.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
How do you know that?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I didn’t start to learn about the protest until I was already in Ottawa. The only one that I knew about was in -- I was in Ottawa and then people would just say, "Hey, there's another protest in Windsor," or the people in the room, they would just be discussing where they had heard about another protest somewhere else. I had just assumed that it was very much like this protest in Ottawa where citizens just said, "We're seeing Ottawa as an example that you can actually do something." And I think the Ottawa protest was an inspiration for a lot of people, and what I later learned was that there was 20 convoys around the world, and they were all saying that they were inspired by the convoy in Ottawa. So it seemed to be a logical conclusion to me that there was further convoys being inspired by Ottawa around Canada as well.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it's an assumption that you're ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It's an assumption.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just wondered since you made it as a statement, if you had some information.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, the -- what I wanted to ask a bit more is the 322 trucks.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It wasn’t clear to me what those 322 trucks were. And by that, I mean, were those part of the convoy group you were involved with or is that total trucks?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I understand the confusion. We -- I was asking for a head count of all of the trucks in the downtown, so Wellington being the sort of centre of gravity, and all of the perpendicular and parallel streets, based off of Wellington. And I had asked for people that I was working with daily if you could go out and get and find out how many vehicles we have on every street.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's the "we". I'm trying to figure out ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. These were convoys. From my understanding, what happens -- so for example, a convoy came in from New Brunswick, and as they got into the city, they had a plan to stick together. And as soon as they got here and they interacted with the Ottawa Police, the Ottawa Police started directing that particular convoy, as an example, New Brunswick, and that entire convoy got spread out all over the place. Same thing came from the West, same thing came from Quebec. So when they came in here, they expected they drove in together, they'd stay together, but they were spread out like buckshot all over all of the streets. So you couldn't say that hey, the convoy from New Brunswick that started with 50 trucks, as an example, were still confined to 50 trucks over on a certain area. They just literally got spread out all over the place and nobody can control that. So we were trying to organize ourselves in a way that we could get effective communication going between the ARC and the -- and every single individual truck driver. We just wanted to reduce our span of control to the convoy leader from New Brunswick just to talk to that person, you go share it. We couldn't do that because we were spread out everywhere, and so communications were near impossible for us.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Again, it wasn’t clear. What I'm trying to understand is, 322, is that a total truck count for the City of Ottawa, all the streets or is it those are the trucks that you had a relationship with either because they were the Western Convoy or one of your organizer’s convoys?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
At the time, I believe that was just to the downtown. That did not include the parkway. That didn’t include 88, didn’t include Arnprior. That was just in the city on that given day. It was 322 trucks that was given to me on a sticky note as the total number of trucks in the downtown core on that day.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wouldn’t be the trucks that your group controlled?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was a -- it would include the Rideau Street ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- trucks, all of the trucks.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, all of the trucks.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the second thing -- I wanted to talk to just briefly about logistics and understand a bit better. Were you told when new convoys were coming in?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We would get -- we would get reports that there would be a substantial convoy coming in from a new area and then only to find out that that convoy either didn’t show up or was much smaller than what was reported. And then sometimes convoys would show up and we didn’t even know they were on their way. So the -- our ability to track convoys was very, very difficult. So there’s really no clear answer as to -- to that question, unfortunately.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But was that your responsibility, to deal with new convoys coming in, leaving aside how much you knew about what was coming in?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
It would have been because then we would have been able to, as a group in the Arc, discuss and figure out what the best way to get then into a good spot would be. So where I was to the Arc, yes, we would have handled that movement into the city and put them somewhere appropriate.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that continued -- or how long did that continue where trucks were coming in and you would direct them to where to go?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would say that was probably about the first week and a half that I would be involved in that kind of -- those discussions. But my role started to evolve and so, after I brought in a couple of people, one individual who was another military officer -- once I brought him in, I kind of handed that off and then I worked more strategically with Keith and Eva to do different things, so really about a week and a half, max.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And finally, with respect to those convoys coming in, how -- which convoys would end being involved with and which would you not be involved with, or was that sort of a hazard?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
For me, only the ones that were coming directly into the city. I wasn’t involved in the ones going to Arnprior, or 88, or to the Parkway. I was only involved in the ones in the downtown core.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I guess I’m trying to understand, were you somewhere have an official -- how would convoys know that you will direct the convoy rather than the police, for example?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
We would go through truck captains and we also had people that were in the Arc that would go out an try to meet with them and sort of direct -- create that contact between them and then guide them in where we wanted them -- or where we could find space for them.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wasn’t necessarily you ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
I would not.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- who would guide them in?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
No, I basically was -- I -- I rarely got out of the Arc. Not many occasions could I detach myself from the Arc.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And would the -- when you did -- or your delegates do that ---
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- would it be with the police or -- as opposed to despite or contrary to police instructions?
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
If there was an opportunity to involve the police, we would have always sought to do that, yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much.
Tom Marazzo (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re going to take the morning break -- or the afternoon break. I made the same mistake as yesterday. So we’ll take the afternoon break, 15 minutes, and then we’ll come back with our final witness for today.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission est levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 4:22 p.m.
Upon resuming at 4:40 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is reconvened. La Commission reprend.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Jeffrey Leon, co-lead, Commission counsel. The next witness is Patrick King and he is here with his counsel Natasha Calvinho.
Natasha Calvinho, Counsel (Pat King)
Good afternoon.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon, Ms. Calvinho.
STATEMENT BY MS. NATASHA CALVINHO
Natasha Calvinho, Counsel (Pat King)
Thank you for having me. I am counsel for Mr. King on his criminal charges. As I’m sure the Commission is aware, my client is still facing a number of criminal charges that are -- there’s a publication ban on and there’s -- trial dates have been set and they’re currently still before the courts. Mr. King is here today, as he was compelled to by virtue of his subpoena, and he has answered to that to that subpoena. He invokes his protections under the Canada Evidence Act and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms vis a vis his evidence. We consider -- we consider his response to questions put to him to be compelled statements -- or compelled answers for any future proceeding. We are here and we understand the parameters of the Commission and there quite tight time constraints on the information needing to come out and witnesses needing to be called. But that having been said, late yesterday we received, less than 24 hours before the hearing, 127 individual items and 2,406 individual pages of material. Mr. King is anxious to respond to his subpoena and offer his evidence. He and I have done our level best to get through the materials. There may become a point in time where he may need some guidance from me or we might need a bit of time to review something because we’ve done the best that we can but we weren’t able to get through all of it and I would ask for the Court’s -- or the Commission’s indulgence if we get to that point, but I hope we don’t. And Mr. King is available to testify. Thank you, sir.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, and yes, I understand about the subpoena and the protections. That’s obviously provided. And we do appreciate that it is sometimes challenging to deal with the documentation. I think you would have a lot of sympathy from the parties and the Commission counsel so I understand that. And we’ve been very accommodating, as required, and certainly, if there’s something, please provide some sort of an indication and we can sort it out.
Natasha Calvinho, Counsel (Pat King)
Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Mr. King ---
The Registrar (POEC)
I’m sorry.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Oh, sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He has to be sworn.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. King, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’d like to swear on a Bible, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Full name is Patrick James King, p-a-t-r-i-c-k, j-a-m-e-s, k-i-n-g.
MR. PATRICK KING, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEFFREY LEON
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Mr. King, just to follow on what your counsel has just said, if at any time during my questioning you need time to review a document, don’t hesitate to ask.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I’m going to be asking you questions to give you an opportunity to explain to the Commissioner your involvement in the Freedom Convoy and also to give you a chance to respond to some of the evidence that’s been led before the Commission. I’d like to start with your background. I understand you were born in Sault Ste. Marie?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That’s correct, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And how long did you live there?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Until I was 18.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And then where did you go?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I moved out to Alberta where there was work and I’ve been living in Red Deer, Alberta ever since.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what sort of work do you do?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh boy, I started out 22 years in oil and gas; I worked my way up from a roughneck all the way up to a driller, to a front-line supervisor, to a full completion’s specialist and then I went back to University and I got my degree in Occupational Health & Safety Environment, a three-year degree from the University of Alberta. From there, I took a position as a Health & Safety Manager – or sorry, Admin. and I would look after upstream oil and gas manufacture. And from -- I was a H2S instructor; I drove truck; I had a Class 1 driver’s licence for oversized loads; I also have a course -- I guess a Certificate, I was a Logistics Coordinator and a dispatcher.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Now, your counsel has indicated that you have been charged with criminal offences and I understand that a condition of your bail is, that you are not allowed to use social media; is that correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’m not allowed to do anything. I’ve had absolutely every right of a Canadian citizen stripped of me. My freedom of speech, my freedom of protest, my freedom -- everything.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Am I correct, you can’t use social media?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No. You are absolutely correct.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So I would like to ask you about your use of social media prior to your being charged in the latter part of February 2022. So if we can talk about the period, let’s say, 2019 to March 2022, what kinds of social media did you use?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Facebook, Instagram, that was it. I would never go on twitter; that’s a troll site; that’s a joke; but Facebook and Instagram.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
TikTok?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Just to like watch it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
YouTube?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, I had YouTube but around the time that Donald Trump was being elected I hold -- actually hold is a title; only him and myself are the only ones who have ever been banned from using any Google product. So I would never promote YouTube.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand you had a large following on social media; is that correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Can you define “large”?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, how big was your following?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It was big.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Can you define “big”?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It was international; it was big.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. 100,000, 200, 300, 400,000?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That all depends on Facebook’s algorithms of what they really say. On my website and on my Facebook page about half a million people.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And I understand on Facebook you would post live events; is that correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I would do Podcasts and I would do media and I would catch interactions in real time for basically – just show it in real – in reality and not some distorted mainstream media view. I’d show you what it was in the real time.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand in 2019 you were involved in a Convoy called “United We Roll”?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Is that correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that was a protest over some oil and gas issues?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That was a protest over Bill C69 and C48, which is the anti-pipeline and the anti-harbor moratorium of which when we came to Ottawa, we were successful. They reopened all the contracts after. And actually since I’ve been incarcerated as of June 2022, both those bills have been scrapped because they had been deemed unconstitutional and Alberta finally got our pipelines and we’re finally back to work again.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that Convoy travelled from – was it Red Deer to Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Red Deer, Alberta, yeah. We left on February 14th and we like to deem it as “The Love of Our Country”. On Valentine’s Day we left to stand up for our rights and exercise our democratic right to a freedom of peaceful assembly, to exercise our democratic right to a freedom to protest and to have our voices heard from the Government.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who led that Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I was in the pilot truck, myself and another person by the name of “Angie Reed”; love you Angie. Glen Carritt was involved along with -- he drove OPE -- the firetruck; we brought a firetruck. He was an oil and gas fire suppression unit.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
How many vehicles were in the Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
When it got to Wellington we had about 170, 178, I believe.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was Mr. Bodder involved in that Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Involved in what way?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was he part of it?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What was his involvement?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
A fellow Canadian exercising his democratic right to protest.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Was he part of organizing it?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So when you got to Ottawa, how long were you there?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
We arrived, I believe it was the 19th of February; we protested the 20th and 21st and then we left that following Monday.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you went back to Red Deer?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah. But I’d like to say that we left because the politicians acknowledged why we were there; they came out and said “We hear you; we’re here to support you and we will back you and we will do everything we can to try and get your issues heard.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, I would like to come to your involvement in the Freedom Convoy, if I could. I’m trying to keep track of the time, but it doesn’t seem to be working. How did you first get involved in the Freedom Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, I had already been on social media; I had already been doing my stuff that I always do and I happen to see some people that were talking about the trucking industry and how they were about to be affected. And I know that our truckers here in Canada are the backbone of the economy in Canada. They move the freight, their importance is a very under – basically they’re forgotten; they’re kind of -- yeah, they’re a trucker/trucker, whatever trucker. But I knew the importance that if you stopped the trucking industry within 72 hours you’ll be brother on brother for a loaf of bread. And when they started to hit the truck drivers, and these guys have already been working diligently throughout this nonsense, we’d seen it as a direct attack against the Canadian economy. And not only a direct attack against the Canadian economy, but a direct attack to -- truckers are the guys that want to be left alone; they want to work in their trucks, they want to go do their job independently; leave us alone. We won’t create a stir, we won’t cause a problem, we’ll pay our taxes and -- it felt like they needed a voice.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did somebody contact you and ask you to get involved?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Nope.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What did you do to get involved?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, I reached out to a view people and I asked if they’d like to, you know, let’s talk about it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Who did you reach out to?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I reached out to Chris Barber, Brigitte Belton. I reached to, well, basically them, those two, and I said, “I’d love to how you on my show and I really think what you guys are about to -- what you guys are wanting to do, I can be an asset because I’ve done this before back in 2019 and I can help you out in any way possible.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And am I correct that you then had a Facebook live event on January, was it, 13th, 2022?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
If that’s the date that you have, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And as you -- Mr. Barber, Ms. Belton, and I understand James Bauder were all on -- part of that?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That’s correct, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’ve got to say there was people involved but I’ve had my social media stripped. I’ve had all my videos gone. I can’t recollect who was all there but that sounds very close to who was there. I think there were some other people that were involved, too. I think Dave Steenburg was one. Well, there was a couple -- I think Joe Janzen was one. There was a few people, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And during that event, you talked about the plan for a Freedom Convoy with those people who were with you?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, we had thrown the idea around. We had said, “Do you guys really want to do this?” And they’re like, “Yeah, we should do this.” And I said, “Okay. Well, I’ll do everything I can to help you. I’ll give you the platform. I’ll give you the voice. I’ll allow -- not allow but I’d like to help you because I see what you’re doing is absolutely prophetic.” Finally, the hard-working, blue-collared people of Canada were going to stand up.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And was this first time you’d met Mr. Barber and Ms. Belton?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And my information was you had about 3,000 viewers to that event; does that sound right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
If that’s what -- you have a number, sure. I never -- I was never concerned about the numbers. I could have two people in the room and it didn’t matter.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And have you told us why you decided to get involved with the Freedom Convoy based on the statement you just made?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
The reason I did it was, basically, I have gone through my own issues with these mandates and I have my own stance and my own beliefs on these mandates and what they’re doing -- and now I want everybody to remember, a mandate is not a law. And they were pushing this and I finally found people that didn’t want it pushed on them anymore.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you understand was the goal of the Freedom Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
To go and protest and exercise your democratic right to a freedom of peaceful protest, to a freedom of assembly, to exercise your voice and be heard by politicians of your concerns and your -- basically, your agitation with the way things are being controlled.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And later in January, the 21st, did you have another video stream that involved Tamara Lich, Chris Barber, James Bauder, and others; do you recall that?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You bet.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I understand there was general discussion of what was going to happen with the Freedom Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes, there was a discussion. It was basically, like, so organic, like, “How are we going to do this? Who’s going to do what? Who’s going to be doing this? Who going to be doing that?” I basically was a platform for these people to be able to, like, show who they are.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And by this time, do you know if anyone in that group had contacted any members of a police force to tell them ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- that this was going?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah. Yeah. James Bauder bragged about how he had Ottawa around his little finger, that he had all the police and he had all the connections. And I was like, “Is that the same connections of when we did the United We Roll?” And he’s like, “Yes.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” And so I reached out because I have a rapport with PPS. I’m -- I’ve travelled around Canada protesting and speaking on public platforms and I’ve given my -- like, I’ve basically set a good communication between these officers. So I reached out to these officers and said, “We’re looking at bringing another convoy to Ottawa. Remember me?” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah, we remember you, Pat.” I’m like, “It’s good, right?” They’re like, “Oh, yeah, you’re always great when you’re here.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you some of those -- at least one of those officers on your stream that night?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, we had a few officers, yeah. Yeah, they were on our streams, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And discussing safety issues and that sort of thing?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Absolutely, safety is number one, like your rules of the road and all that. And they knew who I was. They knew how we had organized the 2019 Convoy. And they knew how absolutely law-abiding and professional that we were.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you travelled to Ottawa with the western leg of the convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what type of vehicle were you driving?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I wasn’t driving. I had somebody who was driving our motorhome and I sat passenger in the motorhome.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you -- where did you join up with the Convoy?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I joined up with the main convoy in Calgary.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, Clerk, can you please bring up HRF00001221? This is a chronology of events that was put together by the group of convoy organizers and is now an exhibit in these proceedings, and it’s a timeline of events from their perspective. And I want to ask you about a few entries that refer to you. We can go to the bottom of page 2, please. You can see there: "January 24, Chris Barber and Tamara Lich meet." And then: "Concerns re. Pat King expressed." And: "Tamara and Chris discussed concern about Pat King after viewing a Tweet with a video making reference to bullets. Chris agreed perhaps Pat should be send home but there was concern about the trucks Pat brought with him. Talked to Pat about the Tweet on the roadside and he stated the video was an old one about an issue on a reserve and had been heavily edited to make it appear as though it was regarding the Convoy. Following this, a Captains meeting was held in Kenora at the end of the day where everyone expressed concern about Pat King's involvement. The decision was made that someone would talk to Pat within the coming days and request that he not attend in Ottawa." Do you remember that conversation?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, I do not.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Do you deny it happened?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes. I’m not the one there. They’re discussing their concerns.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
That wasn’t what I asked you. I’m saying, did the conversation happen, sir?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No. A conversation came up of, “Hey, there’s a Tweet out there.” I said, “Don’t worry about it.”
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can we go to page 3 of this document?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’d like to give a little bit of an explanation there. The explanation is I have been absolutely harassed. I’ve been absolutely defamed, character assassination by a certain group. And they edit videos and they cut and splice, and they take 10 seconds here and they blow it out of proportion, and I’ve been dealing with this for years.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I will give you an opportunity -- I’m show you some of the videos and I’ll give you an opportunity ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, absolutely. I can’t wait.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- to comment on them.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’ve been waiting for years to tell you guys how you got -- how these videos are.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So on page 3, you’ll see under January 26th: "Pat King was on the radio annoying others. Pat had tried to pull in front of everyone with his motorhome but was eventually sent to the back of the convoy. Everyone was concerned about Pat's involvement and plans were made to talk to him in the evening when they arrived in Thunder Bay. Unfortunately, Pat did not stick around but continued to Sault Ste. Marie, so no one had a chance to speak to him."
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware that that had happened?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I was one of the lead vehicles from Calgary all the way to Kenora. When we got to Kenora, I was in the front, and when I got to Thunder Bay, I sat for two hours directing everybody into their parking spots, and I told everybody that I was leaving for Harris Bay to have a fuel stop and meals and basically, a rest stop for everybody, and that’s where I was going.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if you can bring up, Mr. Clerk, HRF00000646? And again, this is a document that’s been provided by the Freedom Convoy, and it appears to be a summary of a conversation between you and Tamara Lich. Do you recall having a conversation with Ms. Lich on January 28th?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did she request that you not attend in Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No. What was happening is, we were at a rest stop. I said, "Oh, my God, this has gotten big." I said, "I'm getting death threats and I might need security when I'm in Ottawa." And I said, "This has got way bigger." And I may have said this part, this little part here where about the organizing thing, but then I checked myself right away and I realized Tamara said, "Whoa, it's not all about you." And I'm like, "You're right. You're absolutely right."
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
But that comment at the bottom, "check your fucking ego", that never happened.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Now, you proceeded on to Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Absolutely.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, were you familiar with an organization called "Adopt a Trucker" program or a program "Adopt a Trucker"?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can we put up please COM00000571? And you'll see at the top -- can you just scroll down -- it says, "Adopt a Trucker campaign created by Chris Garrah." Do you know Mr. Garrah?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I do, yes.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And to scroll a little further up -- no, sorry, down -- in the first line there, you'll see it says towards the end, "We are endorsed by Pat King and Canada Unity." Did you endorse this campaign?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I endorsed everybody.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you endorse this campaign by "Adopt a Trucker"?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Endorse by -- what do you mean by endorsed? Can you explain?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you support it and publicize it?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Absolutely, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who asked you to get involved in this?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
They were just a group that we had asked for people to -- in the Ottawa area, that community who wanted to help Adopt a Trucker was -- you would take a trucker and basically billet, like, billeting. So if you remember hockey, when you'd go to tournaments, you would stay with a billet, so people are offering up their homes for truckers to come have showers. There was food and whatever they needed in necessities, Chris and their group were going to look after the -- I don't know how you say it -- the care and wellbeing of truckers who didn’t have a place to stay, like, didn’t have money for hotels or -- we were trying to reduce costs for lodgings.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And I take it in this sense, you were in demand because of your large social media following to get your -- put your name to things like the Freedom Convoy, like the Adopt a Trucker?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It happens a lot. A lot of people like to, you know, use my platform, and I'm okay with it and I do it on -- I absolutely invite it. A lot of people use my name or my platform to gain attention for their cause, and I'm absolutely 100 percent agreeable to that. I think everybody has a right to have their say and get their point across, and I never hold a bias. So I make sure that everybody use it, take it, take my platform. Do what you can.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And if I could ask you, did you have your own group as part of this convoy that came with you?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I was a road captain for, I believe, the northern part of Alberta, so I took on the responsibility for those people that were part of our initial jump from Red Deer to Calgary and then onwards to Ottawa.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And can you estimate how many trucks were in that group?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, boy. When we left Red Deer, there was about 50 of us, but once I found out further on, we tried to get people to sign the documents and everything in Calgary and it turned out to be about 148, if I'm not mistaken, that I was in -- I was responsible for, I guess responsible, but taking care of their paperwork.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you arrived in Ottawa on January 29?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes, sir.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, no. We arrived in Arnprior.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I see.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
And from there -- I'll never forget it -- it was the most greatest, most elating moment of my life where I can pass them off to Andrew and say, "They're your problem now."
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Where did you go? When did you get to Ottawa, what date?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I got to Ottawa that night, once everybody got to Arnprior. I left and I said, "I'm done. I'm going into town. I want to get my hotel room," and I went to my hotel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What hotel did you stay at?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
One of the ones downtown. Holiday Inn on I believe Albert. I'm not sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what did you do with your vehicle?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I never had a vehicle.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
So how did you get to the Holiday Inn?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I -- we dropped the motorhome off at a secure location and we had people give us a ride into the hotel.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did -- at one point, were you involved with a group at Confederation Park?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I want to move forward to February 12th, and on that date, did you learn that an agreement had been reached with the mayor of Ottawa to move trucks out of residential areas and onto Wellington Street?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah, I heard that that was the plan.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And who did you hear that from?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Just from other road captains and people that were -- I don't know, people who thought they had a role in this and were a voice and could make calls, I guess, if you say, like, make calls, like, if they were told something and passed it on to the block captains and then the block captains would pass it on to the drivers and ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And so did you agree with the -- that idea?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sure, whatever you want. I was here to help in any way I -- they needed me.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Clerk, could you put up a video? It's COM00000881? And I understand this is a video you published on YouTube ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I don’t have YouTube.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- on February 13?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I wouldn't have put it on YouTube. I don’t have YouTube.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, let's see if it's you.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Other people can post things on YouTube. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, do you remember?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I remember that there was a lot of stuff going on at that moment. We were -- you said this was February 12th?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I believe so.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I believe that this was also at the same time that the community had organized their own counter protest. Actually Ms. Catherine McKenney, the council member of Ottawa, encouraged people to come out and counter- protest, and they were leaving leaflets and things on trucks. So we couldn’t determine whether or not these were true documents or not. So I put out this post -- because it wasn’t confirmed and there was no letterhead, there was no signature, there was no notoriety of who it came from. So I would assume that if the City Council or Ottawa was going to make this leaflet and pass it out, somebody would have put their name on it to give it some clout, to give it some importance. Later on we found out that the – we were asked to move and then we said, okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Thank you. Mr. Clerk, can you put up HRF00001285. Now, I understand this was the leaflet that was passed around. You’ll see it’s dated February 12th from Tamara Lich; it speaks to Freedom Manifest and has the Freedom Convoy symbol on it. Can you scroll, please, and you’ll see there the last two paragraphs it talks about re-positioning the trucks and the plan to start repositioning on Monday to consolidate the process. Now, is that the document you saw?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I never saw this, no.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
But do you remember what the document looked like that you did see?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It was a leaflet from the Mayor or something like that. I might be confused on this. I’ve never seen this.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, while you were in Ottawa were you involved with a group of trucks that went out to the airport?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you did slow rolls around the airport?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
We went for a ride, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, how long were you at the airport?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
An hour, two hours.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And were you doing slow rolls around the airport?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
We were abiding by the law, by the rules of the road; we did the speed limit; we did not impede emergency traffic; we just went for cruises.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What was the purpose in your going?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
We were bored.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’m sorry?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
We were bored.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And that you found interesting?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, we went for a ride to see what Ottawa was like.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, you spent two hours at the airport seeing what Ottawa was like?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, to see what the airport was and just go for a drive. We were bored and it was cold.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall speaking to Tom Marazzo before you went?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I talked to Tom many a times.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did he have somebody accompany you to make sure what you were doing went okay?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, not that I know of.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you by doing what you were doing there -- how many trucks were there?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I don’t know; all of them.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
All of what?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
All the trucks that were there; I don’t know.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
How many came with you?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
They were all passenger vehicles; they were all cars.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I see.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
There was never a commercial vehicle with us.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
All right. And how many cars came with you?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I don’t know, 30, 40 maybe.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And while you were doing what you were doing at the airport, would you agree with me that you slowed down other vehicles from accessing the airport?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, I do not. When you’re going to the airport there’s two lanes; when you’re going to arrivals and departures, there’s two lanes. We used one lane; we were in the one lane and there was always a lane open. So anybody who wanted to go in, they could use the other lane.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Mr. Clerk, can you put up HRF00000083. Sorry, can you scroll the other way; you’ll see it’s on the Freedom Convoy letterhead, February 17th, reaffirming its commitment to peaceful demonstration. And if we look at the second paragraph: “We do not support any form of hateful, rhetoric, divisive comments or calls for violence. We explicitly condemn anything of that nature. So let us be clear, we are a peaceful and lawful demonstration. We have heard about inappropriate comments being made by Pat King. Pat King does not speak for us. We expressly condemn any talk of violence from him or others. Pat King has the right like every other Canadian Citizen to protest peacefully.” Do you remember seeing this?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I never saw it, but I heard about it; I knew about it.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And do you know what they’re referring to when they say ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, the reason is -- and I’m going to say it straight up, and I’m going to have to give a little bit of a brief background to that. I’ve been chasing the Government and exposing a lot of stuff of the overreach, the financial and economic hardships that have been happening. I have in my possession the document of the non-disclosure agreement between a young juvenile and a certain specific member of parliament. And when doing so, exposing also the $42 billion infrastructure project that was stolen out of Alberta’s hands and handed over to the Chinese Government. And the implementation of Chinese soldiers on Canadian soil. I have been absolutely harassed and degraded and defamed and discredited and character assassinated and these guys were getting attacked because of me. So when they put this out, I get it; they had to push me out and look at everybody and, you know, we don’t want to anything to do with Pat King. I absolutely encouraged it, 100 percent. Put it out there that I don’t have anything to do with this. Put it out there. GoFundMe wouldn’t release their funds -- GoFundMe directly contacted them and said we’re not going to release your funds if Patrick King’s involved. This is how much target, like how much they’re out to make sure that everything that touch, is ruined.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what they’re referring to when they say, “Talk of violence, inappropriate comments”? Did you talk of violence?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Not at all.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you make any inappropriate comments?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Not at all. Well, maybe. You know, I’m kind of a hothead. I kind of talk too much sometimes and that’s -- I get that honestly by my mum. She’s got the gift of the gab.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, you recall that in Ottawa, there was a lot of honking, right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And were you involved in that honking?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
How? I didn’t have a vehicle there. I didn’t have a truck. What horn can I honk?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what did you think about it? Did you agree with it, encourage it, wish it didn’t happen?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Do what you want to do.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’m sorry.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
People are free to do what they wanted to do.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Could you put up, Clerk, please, COM00000851. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
That’s what you thought, that it was hilarious that people couldn’t sleep?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
When I look at now and I’m -- like, no, it wasn’t funny. But if you know my persona and my character and the way I show myself, I laugh all the time. Life’s a joke, laugh it off; it’s kind of one of my biggest mottos. And I tend to laugh when I’m nervous. But at that point, it was kind of -- it was funny. You see, we’d been locked down for two years and people are complaining that they heard horns for 10 days. Did they remember what we went through for the last two years? What’s a little bit of horns for 10 days?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you make any statements on social media to the effect that you wanted to form a new government and that you and the truckers would take power?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And did you make any statement that -- in a video that, “We will be the new government. We will just take power and share it together”?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Say that again.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
“We will be the new government. We will just take power and share it together.”
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Do you have a video that I can reference?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I don’t have a video, no. I’m asking you if you ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- said that on a video.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I hate politics. I hate government so why would I want to be the new government?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’d like to show you now a compilation of some of your videos ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh, I’m ready for this one.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- produced by ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Anti-Hate Canada and edited by a $45M contract that Trudeau and his liberal government paid for to do this. It has been played over and over and over.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Well, I don’t think you’ve seen this compilation.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
It was produced by the Ontario -- or the Ottawa Police Service. It’s OPS00007967. Can you please start it and stop it after the first video. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I know this video like there’s no tomorrow. It’s edited and spliced and fit to make the media, their narrative -- to show it in a negative context. So when you hear that, I had just got kicked out of the airport. I got denied my flight because I wasn’t vaccinated after being told that I had been allowed to fly; I had a 72-hour window. And there’s a video before this. Like, this is so ridiculous, take 10-second clips and characterize somebody by it. But I’m waiting to defend myself on this one. And what I stated in this -- and I never say, “You’re going to get shot.” I never said that. I said, “You’re going to catch a bullet,” because, as we know, mental health is a big thing in Canada. It’s kind of lime-lighted. You have mental heath issues. One day somebody’s going to have a breakdown and if you push people too far, especially denying them their flight, you never know who you’re going to get, and that person might have a mental breakdown. And what they’re doing with their restrictions and these mandates, which are not laws, they’re going to get that wrong person. And I said that because you’re lucky it was me that day because I would never acted on that but if it had been somebody else -- and there’s a lot of people are upset, lost a lot, and don’t give a crap, and they’re going to have a mental breakdown.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now, that was only a clip from the video.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Can you put up COM00000898, the full video.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I want to say -- I’d just like to, like, give you a little bit of brief description to this. You ever get in an argument with your parents and you get mad and you say things you don’t wish you said, like, you regret saying that? That’s one of my moments. Yeah, it was inappropriate. Yeah, I should never had said it, but it was.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you put up the document, please? And you can see there’s the part that we saw: " The only way that” -- and I’m going to say out it loud, “The only way that this is going to be solved is with bullets."
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, you’re. Okay, so this one: "Someone’s going to make you catch a bullet one day." That’s one video. What you’ve done is you’ve put another video in there and said this part. And this part needs some major clarity ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- because it’s been edited and fit to make the narrative out like I’m some kind of looney and radical. But what it was is ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Can I just stop you for a second? I want to just go through this whole ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sure.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- statement and then I’ll let you speak to it.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
All right.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
If we go down to the next paragraph: " You might want to change your name to Ishmael or drop a bunch of chains down the stairs and call yourself Chong Ching Ching Chang. Now you want to say the Indian culture and everything. The Natives’ culture is a disgrace. It is 100 percent every person who was born here in Canada, in North America, you are Indigenous. People don’t realize that. If you were born of the land, you are Indigenous of the land. It’s called depopulation of the Caucasian race or 19 the Anglo-Saxon. And that’s what the goal is, is to depopulate the Anglo-Saxon race because they are the ones with the strongest bloodlines. They are the ones with the strongest bloodlines. They are the ones with the strongest bloodlines." And then going down to the bottom: " I think I'm going to have a big gathering at my house just for that. And I'm going to film it. You’re right, cops will get shot." Now, did you make a video to that effect?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No. No, I -- can we go down so I can reference each sentence in this because I’ve dying to get this out.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Did you make any of those statements?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Can we go down so I can defend each ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Yes, but ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- line?
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
--- answer my question.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You have four, if not five, videos that you’ve transcribed, one from over four years ago that’s part of this. And they’re taken out of context ---
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay, I’d just ask you, sir -- -
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- so I need to defend myself on that.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
I’ll let you talk but just let me -- answer my question. Are those statements that you made?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Those are statements that were said in a long line of online presence -- online podcasts that go along with the evidence -- or go along with the topic that I was discussing.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Now.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
All right. Can we scroll down, please? Thank you. No, sorry, up. I apologize. A little bit more, please, right to the very beginning, number one. All right, so we say: " Trudeau, someone’s going to 3 make you catch a bullet one day." That’s the airport incident. That’s where I was mad. I was denied my flight after being told I can fly. And I got stuck in Toronto Pearson International Airport of which I actually regret saying that. I was mad. The next one, the only way that I'm going to say it out loud -- “The only way that this is going to be solved is with bullets” -- that is taken directly out of context, 100 percent.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
What was the context?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
The context was if you are Canadian and you want to exercise your political right to stand up and be freedom of protest and peaceful assembly, would you take it? Or are you going to allow it to become bullets? Because if we keep going on the way we’re going to be going on, that’s the possible end game. It’s a prediction.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And you say at the end, “A massive revolution on a huge scale.”
Pat King (Convoy participants)
If not, yeah. Things are wrong in this country, massively wrong.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And what about the ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
And this is me just interpreting what I'm seeing from an outside person saying this is what’s going to happen if you do not make these t=governments be held accountable for what they’re doing.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And the next step ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Then we go down. You might want to change your name to Ishmael, drop a bunch of change down the stairs -- it’s actually change, not chains. And I said that because there was a CSIS document put out -- I believe it was in 2019 -- about the foreign economy, the foreign influence in our Canadian economy of a foreign government purchasing all our resources. And the CSIS guys were telling you, “Hey, something’s wrong. Do you guys know that we’re being bought out? Do you know that we’re being infiltrated? Our economy’s being destroyed. And the comment was because it was China, Chinese influence.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And the next paragraph?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
The next paragraph was -- I had to say this in my Court. They used this in my bail hearing. The Indian culture and everything, the Natives culture is a disgrace. Never once was it said., It was said -- what I said prior to that is what the Canadian government has done to the First Nations people is an absolute disgrace in the way they’re treated and the way they’re ridiculed and not given the appropriate means to even have water. It’s a disgrace.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
And the next paragraph?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
The next paragraph of the depopulation? Oh, this is a good one. So there was a time the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was his name, walked into a meeting at the United Nations with a bunch of binders and he dropped them down on the podium. And he started bringing out everything who was involve din 9-1-1. And people started scattering out. And his words were, “We’re not going to kill you with bullets. We’re not going to blow you up with bombs. We’re going to breed you out. We’re going to get rid of the Anglo Saxon race because you think you're the proudest bloodline. And we are going to breed you out. We’re going to flood your borders with immigrants. We’re going to infiltrate your education, infiltrate your politics.” You don’t understand. Like, the things that were going on around the world, and seeing these, I bring them up. I show the video and that’s what it is.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can we go back to OPS00007967 and can you pick it up where you left off after the first video? (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Very well edited. Congrats.
Jeffrey Leon, Co-lead Counsel (POEC)
Those are my questions.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
First for cross-- examination, the convoy organizers, please.
Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening, Mr. Commissioner. Bath-Sheba Van den Berg, counsel for Freedom Corp and protesters. We have no questions for Mr. King. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAUL CHAMP
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. King, my name is Paul Champ and I'm a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses of Ottawa.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You guys are the guys that got my bank account. That’s still frozen, after nine months.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just give us a call.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You took my kids’ college tuition. I hope you're proud.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Are you talking about the funds in your Alberta Treasury Branch?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You're very familiar with my bank account.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How many e-transfers ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I hope you're proud.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How many e-transfers did you get into that account, Mr. King?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
All of them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So people across Canada are donating for your children’s, child’s education fund? That’s what it was for?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You were raising money for the Freedom Convoy trip; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
For myself.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
If people wanted to donate they could.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so -- and they donated $100,000 to you, is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How much?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I have no idea.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don’t know. So you don’t know if was $100,000 or not.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I have no idea. You got my bank accounts frozen.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, you can check the court records. You raised $100,000 for yourself.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Wow. So give me it back so I can live.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No. I will ask you to be removed if this doesn't stop. You've been very good so far. Please.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I’m sorry, sir.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I don’t think you're helping. Just answer the questions and we’ll get through this properly.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This isn’t supposed to be a show. It’s supposed to be a questions and answers and I realize you feel quite ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I apologize.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- strongly about things.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I apologize. I did take that wrong. I apologize.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, myself as well. Mr. King, I’d just like to ask you about the 2019 United We Roll convoy. You've told us that was a successful protest, is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
One hundred (100) percent, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was. You organized a number of people, you and others -- Mr. Carrique and others. You got a number of trucks together including semi truck trailers. You came across Canada. You got a lot of media all the way across Canada, came through Ottawa and generated a lot of attention to your issues, correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, a successful protest.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
One hundred (100) percent.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
And with Mr. Trudeau’s involvement and the Freedom of Information where he sent 2000 anti-protesters to come and slash our tires.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So for the Freedom Convoy protest in February why did you stay for so long?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Why?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
To exercise my democratic right to freedom of peaceful protest and freedom of assembly. Because I'm Canadian and I have that democratic right.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Mr. King, where did you -- you said you stayed at the Holiday Inn; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah, for like four or five days, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then where did you stay?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
In Gatineau.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That’s we had heard -- Ms. Belton testified she thought you were staying in a hotel out of downtown. I guess the horns were getting to you downtown; is that why you changed hotels?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Not at all.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why did you change hotels?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Because your community decided to pull the pin on lodgings and hotels for people and we were told they were no longer going to allow us to rent a room because the community had basically told the hotels, “If you support these guys and give them a room, you're going to be in a lot of trouble.” And that’s from the manager of the Holiday Inn who told me that. “So I’m sorry, Mr. King, we can’t give you another room.” I said, “That’s fine. I get it. No problem. It sucks to be you guys because you're making a killing. And the money that you guys are generating from all of us being here, it’s probably the best for you guys to recoup those funds after two years of being shut down."
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why didn’t you go to the ARC Hotel or the Sheraton Hotel or the Swiss Hotel? There was lots of rooms there.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I didn’t need a hotel.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And who paid for your hotels while you were in Ottawa, Mr. King?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With the donations that you got to make the trip?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sure.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That’s -- are you speculating that, or ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, I'm asking.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Oh.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You're the person I'm asking.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It didn’t sound like a question, that’s all.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was a question, and ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Okay.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- are you answering yes, that’s how you ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah, me. Yeah, I paid for it. Sorry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Paid for it, so I apologize. You got donations to come here and it's with those donations that you paid for the hotel rooms; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yes.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there's other people who were supporters of you who you also assisted in getting funds to pay for their hotel rooms. So in fairness, you were raising money to help others as well, correct?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
When I got money donated, I gave it away.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely. And you were also working with Mr. Barber and the others about getting funds for other people that you helped bring to Ottawa; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
What do you mean, like, funds?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Like, to pay for hotels for other people who were supporters.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Anybody who needed help or anybody who needed money, I was open.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
You needed money, come talk to me, I would help you.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would sometimes connect with Mr. Barber and Ms. Lich to see if they could assist funds as well; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, I barely saw Tamara and Chris.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You communicated regularly with Mr. Barber throughout.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Maybe text messages, yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, through texts.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I never saw them.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
They were busy, man. These guys were like, wow. What they had going on over there, they could have it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. Barber or Ms. Lich ever talk to you about trying to get the truckers to lay off their horns?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
They asked me to see what I could do, and I said, "Yeah, I'll do what I can." And that’s when I put the posts out, and I believe they had been threatened with some injunction or something. I still wasn’t very familiar at the time, but they said, "Do what you can to get the guys to stop," and I did. I put out a post. I said, "Stop honking horns," and actually, as part of my evidence package, that there's two videos. One of the videos actually has me on the street on that evening on Wellington stating, "Listen, you wouldn't know -- you have no idea where I'm at," and it was the most quietest, most eerie place because there was no more horns any more.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to the slow roll around the airport or to the airport, I take it that was just, you were bored, we heard that, but it was also a little bit of a message to the City of Ottawa; is that right, that vehicles could move, move to other areas of the city if provoked?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was it -- why did you choose that day? Was it because the police had just done the raid at the -- at Coventry?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You made it down to Coventry a number of times; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Every day.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Every day? You're a popular figure there, I gather?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I wouldn't say popular. That’s where I went and ate breakfast.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And how -- you were there often. Do you know where the fuel was coming from into Coventry?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
From grateful patriots and Canadian citizens that were donating it.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure, but, like, can you give us any specific names of those grateful patriots?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Joe Smith, number one. I have no idea.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You have no idea or you don’t want to answer?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I don’t remember names. I meet people all day long, constantly. I don’t remember names. If you have a specific person in particular that you want to give me his name and I'll let you know if I know if I know him or if I conversed with them? Like, are you talking the guys that got arrested after they were told they weren’t going to be arrested that were running fuel?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You knew some of those guys?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You knew some of those guys personally?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they were very upset.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Well, look what you did. You told them, "We're not going to arrest --" not you, sorry, they were told they weren’t going to get arrested, and then they left and they got pulled over down the road and got arrested or got charged, got a fine for whatever. And I remember that night because the OPS came in and like, tried to flex or whatever, and these guys didn’t know what was going on. They asked me to come down and I said, "I'm not coming down there. Not a chance. " But I went down the next morning to make sure that calm, cool heads had prevailed. And on that morning, that’s when the RCMP Special Response Task Force, well, they were staying at the Marriot and they came down. One of the officers came down to me, said, "Pat, you're not hot mic'd or anything?" And I said, "No, I don’t got nothing on." And "Why? Who are you?" And he introduced himself and he said, "I just want you to know about last night. That wasn’t our call. And I want you to know that the RCMP, we met with legal and lawyers and that we are not going to do this to you guys because they can't give us the justification of why we should be evicting you or arresting people. So I'm sorry for what happened last night." And I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He's like, "Well, we fought with lawyers to give us justification of why we should be arresting these people. They couldn't give us a clear answer, so we're leaving." I said, "You're leaving?" He says, "Yeah. We're going to Windsor." And they went to Windsor to break down whatever was happening at the border.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were in communication with people who were involved at the Windsor blockade?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you talked to people who went ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
The police officer was leaving.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, the police? So they ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
So they were going, they were leaving Ottawa ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- because the lawyers couldn't give them a justification of arresting people ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- and they said, "We're not going to break the law." So they, whoever is in charge of them sent them to Windsor.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the people who got tickets that night and arrested were upset. You were upset by that, and that’s one of the reasons why you organized the slow roll around the airport of Ottawa; is that ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Not at all, no.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What did you do because you were upset about that?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I went and made sure everybody was calm and cool and everybody was understanding, like, these guys got a job to do. Understand that was rude, that was ignorant, and just be more cautious when you're dealing with the police.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Mr. King, you could not and did not know everyone who was in Ottawa during that protest, right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, there was millions of people.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, thousands anyway, for sure.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Hundreds of thousands. Let's not undersell it. There was a lot of people here.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, just -- we'll agree to disagree there weren’t hundreds of thousands, but you -- it was a bit of a dangerous situation with all those people downtown; would you agree?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Dangerous in what way?
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, dangerous that you don’t know what people might have in their trucks, you don’t know what they might do, they are very upset, they're very angry. Was that a dangerous situation for downtown?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Not at all.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I met the most loving, most caring, most loving people, Canadian citizens. Everywhere you went, you were getting hugs, you were getting handshakes, and -- -
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well then, why did you ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- nobody was violent.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why did you need security then yourself? It was so dangerous that you yourself needed security; isn't that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Because the Liberal left trolls were threatening my life.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So that was dangerous, right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
For me.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just for you? You were the only person in downtown Ottawa who was at risk; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Actually, I was the most highly protected person in Ottawa because we had -- I think they had delegated eight police officers to follow me around everywhere.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. King, we've heard evidence that many federal elected officials, the mayor of Ottawa, had received death threats. We've heard evidence that someone was actually arrested with firearms who was coming to Ottawa who had been making threats about ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Do you have a record of that? Do you have a ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I am asking the questions, Mr. King.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sorry.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So but you would agree with me that it was probably a dangerous situation for elected officials in Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
It was a dangerous place for us. People were dropping marbles from high rises. They were throwing eggs. Citizens of Ottawa were threating to run us over.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. King. You yourself said that someone who is maybe stressed out because of lockdowns and so forth might be compelled to shoot Mr. Trudeau. So you understood ----
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That was months before the convoy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- recognized that that was a risk, right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
That was months before the convoy.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, so but everyone was all -- they were all settled down by the time the convoy came and there was no threats to anyone?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I've never seen anything more loving and peaceful in my life. It was Woodstock.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the only person who's at risk in Ottawa was Pat King? All the other threats to anyone else in Ottawa were all fake; is that right?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I don't know. I can't speak on those. Do you know my lawyer has been given death threats and bomb scares because she represents me? Do you know that my friends have been -- their children have been threatened because of -- from Ottawa? Do you know that -- and I hate to say this - - but this town is full of a bunch of people who really don’t like people who speak out.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I disagree, Mr. King. Ottawa has dozens of large protests, many much larger than the one that you organized, every single year.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I've been here for them.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that was a question so.
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, Mr. Commissioner ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Can I just ask ---
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'll just note -- Mr. Commissioner, I'll just note for the record that the people of Ottawa got one morning in this proceeding. We've had a week of all of these convoy organizers given a full platform to say whatever they want. The people in Ottawa respect the right to protest, and these folks are getting their time to tell -- say everything they want ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You'll get ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Can I say one -- sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, just ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm going to stop this. You'll get -- hey, hey. Please, could you ask -- have him -- I'm going to take a break while you're removed.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess. La commission est levée.
Upon recessing at 5:56 p.m.
Upon resuming at 6:02 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission est reprend.
MR. PATRICK KING, Resumed
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Unfortunate event, but if we can now get back and complete the -- today's proceedings. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
Jessica Barrow, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
The Ottawa Police Service has no questions. Thanks very much, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
Christopher Diana, Counsel (ON-OPP)
The OPP has no questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
We don't have any questions. Thanks.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Government of Canada?
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KATHLEEN TANNER
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
Mr. King, my name is Kathleen Tanner and I'm counsel for the Government of Canada. I just have one short area of questions based on some -- a video that had been played earlier for you, and it was a video that I believe had been recorded on February 12th after some information had come through about some pamphlets or some letters that had been passed around to the drivers. And you had made a video recording telling other drivers that it was a lie, that it was fake news, to hold the ground, stand the line. And later on in that video, and if you'd like, we could bring it up, or we could just walk through it. I understand that you referenced the -- the information that's at stake there is a letter which mentions Ms. Lich's name. And later on in that video, you mention that Ms. Lich would never do something like this, and you knew her well, and you had good communications, and so this wasn't going to be something coming from her. So my question is, did you have any meetings with the City of Ottawa while you were in Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No, I did not.
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
And were you aware of any meetings that Ms. Lich or other representatives of the convoy may have had with anybody from Ottawa?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
No. I tended to stay away from it.
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
And prior to releasing this video, did you make any attempts to reach out to Ms. Lich to confirm whether or not this letter may or may not be accurate?
Pat King (Convoy participants)
I may or may have, and I believe that we were all kind of confused. We didn't know if it was legitimate. So there was the initial, oh, like, this is not a true statement to -- they vetted it -- the document, and then we rechanged our statement and said, okay.
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
So I guess my question is, and then earlier when you were speaking to my friend from Commission counsel, you had said you were uncertain about the truthfulness of that document and that's why you had released the video.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Right, because I would assume that if these people are going to put these letters out and that they're coming from a delegated person that has, like, a high position, there would be a name or a signature or an emblem representing who it's from. And from my knowledge, it -- we didn't know where it came from.
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
So I guess that's my question. It's is it a pattern for you to release videos like this without first confirming the ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Yeah ---
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
--- authenticity of the information ---
Pat King (Convoy participants)
--- yeah, I had a habit of that. I would act without knowledge, but there is an absolute disconnect between myself and their rooms that they had. And I acted alone.
Kathleen Tanner, Counsel (GC)
Okay. That's all my questions. Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the CCLA.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good evening, Commissioner and Mr. King. My name's Ewa Krajewska on behalf of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and I don't have any questions for Mr. King. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Democracy Fund or Citizens for Freedom.
Antoine D’Ailly, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, Antoine D'Ailly for Citizens for Freedom. No questions for this witness. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. And now I apologize, I've forgotten your name, counsel for Mr. King. Any questions? Anything that concerns you about the documentation or you want to put to your client?
Natasha Calvinho, Counsel (Pat King)
Thank you, no. Natasha Calvinho for Mr. King. I don't have any questions, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Sorry, I forgot your name, so I apologize for that. Okay. Any re-examination? No? Okay. Well, that completes your evidence, Mr. King, and you are free to go.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Can I ask for one thing? There is some evidence that I have given to the Commission that needs to be brought out, that I would appreciate it that it got to the public and they got to see it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that that should have been done when -- I think at the end of the examination. Now I’m not sure at this point if there’s something in particular you want to say, of course, go ahead, because it’s -- despite what some may say, we’re just trying to get at the bottom of all of this.
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Absolutely. And I want to show the Canadian citizens and the like that they need to be shown and how caring and compassionate towards the City of Ottawa we actually were and how we -- these videos will -- like I said, what I’ve been shown as racist and all this stuff, and taken out of context, nobody ever showed the positives. And that was the police officers who were right with us, saying thank you. There was residents that were saying thank you. The community in a whole, the community of Ottawa that came together and respected us and understood that, we hear you. I have nothing against the City of Ottawa. That’s not who we were here to talk to. I understand that people were -- I guess felt that we were here targeting them; that wasn’t the case. And to Ottawans, to people who live here, to the City Council members, to the police and all that, we weren’t bad people, sir. We were Canadian citizens who –- we have shown the Canadian pride and we are nice and we are good people; we’re good people.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if it’s any consolation, there’s been evidence about the various Convoy participants on all these issues and there are more witnesses coming. We’re just trying to put out a whole picture. I’ll weigh it all at the end and the evidence will be there and I’m going to make some findings and prepare a report
Pat King (Convoy participants)
Thank you very much.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But there are others coming. So with that, I will adjourn for the day. We have a big day tomorrow. It will be -- I think it will go a little later even than most. I hope we’ll have no difficulties tomorrow because that just slows up the process. But we’ll be back tomorrow at 9:30.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is adjourned; La commission est ajournée.
Upon adjourning at 6:10 p.m. Ottawa, Ontario