Volume 20 (November 9, 2022)
Volume 20 has 221 pages of testimony. 26 people spoke before the Commission, including 3 witnesses.
Very important disclaimer: testimony from this site should not be taken as authoritative; check the relevant public hearing for verbatim quotes and consult the associated transcript for the original written text. For convenience, testimony includes links directly to the relevant page (where a speaker started a given intervention) in the original PDF transcripts.
The testimony below is converted from the PDF of the original transcript, prepared by Maxime Roussy.
Speakers, by number of times they spoke:
- Ian Freeman, Assistant Deputy Minister (ADM) - Transportation / Government of Ontario (ON-MTO) (spoke 474 times)
- Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 299 times)
- Jim Willett, Mayor - Coutts (spoke 286 times)
- Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 109 times)
- Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 81 times)
- Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 74 times)
- Mario Di Tommaso, Deputy Solicitor General (DSG) - Solicitor General / Government of Ontario (ON-SolGen) (spoke 72 times)
- Paul Rouleau, Commissioner - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 58 times)
- Brendan Miller, Counsel - Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers (spoke 45 times)
- Alan Honner, Counsel - Democracy Fund / Citizens for Freedom / Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms Coalition (DF / CfF / JCCF) (spoke 36 times)
- Anne Tardif, Counsel - City of Ottawa (Ott) (spoke 32 times)
- David Migicovsky, Counsel - Ottawa Police Service / City of Ottawa (Ott-OPS) (spoke 26 times)
- Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel - Government of Alberta (AB) (spoke 25 times)
- Colleen McKeown, Counsel - Criminal Lawyers’ Association / Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers (CLA/CCCDL) (spoke 22 times)
- Michael J. Morris, Counsel - Government of Saskatchewan (SK) (spoke 22 times)
- Sujit Choudhry, Counsel - Canadian Constitution Foundation (CCF) (spoke 22 times)
- Jennifer L. King, Counsel - City of Windsor (Win) (spoke 21 times)
- Ewa Krajewska, Counsel - Canadian Civil Liberties Association (CCLA) (spoke 19 times)
- Michael Finley, Counsel - City of Windsor (Win) (spoke 15 times)
- The Registrar - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 14 times)
- The Clerk - Public Order Emergency Commission (POEC) (spoke 11 times)
- David Shiroky, Counsel - Government of Canada (GC) (spoke 4 times)
- Emilie Taman, Counsel - Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses (spoke 1 time)
- Jinan Kubursi, Counsel - Ontario Provincial Police / Government of Ontario (ON-OPP) (spoke 1 time)
- Thomas McRae, Counsel - Windsor Police Service / City of Windsor (Win-WPS) (spoke 1 time)
- Tom Curry, Counsel - Peter Sloly (spoke 1 time)
Upon commencing on Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 9:30 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Public Order Emergency Commission is now in session. La Commission sur l'état d'urgence est maintenant ouverte.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay, so we have a new witness I expect this morning. Who is on for the Commission?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Commissioner. Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Commission Counsel. Our witness this morning will be Mr. Jim Willett.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, Mayor.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Mayor Willett, will you swear on a religious document or do you wish to affirm.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I'll swear on the Bible.
The Registrar (POEC)
Please state your full name and spell it out.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
My full name is Jimmy Willett, J-I-M-M-Y W-I-L-L-E-T-T.
MAYOR JIMMY WILLETT, Sworn
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mayor Willett.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good morning.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So I understand that you're the Mayor of Coutts, Alberta.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you have been a resident of Coutts since 2013?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That is correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And a councillor for the past five years?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And Mayor for four years now?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you had an interview with me and my colleagues on September 6th of this year? Do you remember that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you remember seeing a summary of your interview?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could just pull up WTS00000012. So this is going to be a summary of that interview. You had an opportunity to review this summary; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I understand that you have a clarification to your summary this morning?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I do. When we talk about the police presence in the village, I mentioned the fact that there were around six police cars that I saw the first day, and then the next mention I made of police was when the group moved in on the 1st or 2nd of February. Actually, there was a police presence growing all the time in the village. It didn't go from 6 to 50 in one day, three days into the protests.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes. So I'll bring you to that passage just so that we can confirm. So the second page, and it's the fourth paragraph down. So this is where you say, the paragraph starting on January 29th, at second to last sentence: "He observed approximately six RCMP vehicles at the border that day." Then you say: "On February 1...an additional 42 RCMP vehicles arrived at the border..." And what you're saying is that between those dates there was a gradual build up?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
There was a build up, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Perfect. Thank you. So we're going to put that summary into evidence. Now, I understand, Mr. Mayor, that you live about four blocks from the border and three blocks from where the protest was occurring. Is that about right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, that's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And while these events were happening, would it be fair to say that you attended the location or went to look what was going on on a fairly regular basis?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the population of the Village of Coutts?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The last census had us at 224.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that the village's amenities include a convenience store, a restaurant, a bank, but that a number of the other services that residents would use would be found in Milk River. Is that correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That is correct. All of the major things that you take for granted in a larger community we have to go to Milk River for, doctor, pharmacy, dentist, hardware store, any of that kind of thing, grocery store.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And Milk River is about 18 kilometres away?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Eighteen K.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Sounds good. So if we could just pull up COM924. This is a map of Coutts and the surrounding area. We looked at a similar map yesterday with one of the other witnesses, and so I won't go into detail on this. But if we can just go to page 5, and if we could -- yeah, that works. So my understanding is that the blockade formed around the point identified as Checkpoint 4?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
That's correct. And Smuggler Saloon, which we'll talk about a little bit today, that is a local establishment, and that's identified here on the map as well?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that's where a number of protesters regularly met?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, it became a gathering spot, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Perfect. And so my understanding is that the blockade that occurred was on Highway 4. Is that correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that highway connects Coutts and Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's our connection, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
When -- and I know things may have fluctuated during this period, but when the blockade was blocking both lanes of traffic was it preventing Coutts residents from travelling to Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, it was.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And would it have also been preventing traffic flow from the border, coming out from the border?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, a lot of it, yes. Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And any traffic south to the border?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, I also understand that there was some kind of route, and I'm hoping you can explain this to us some kind of alternative route available through what I think you referred to as Patty Joe's field or something like that.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It was actually her yard. The -- I wasn't there when all of this part of the world was developed, but when the highway was turned into a four-lane major thoroughfare, things changed. An access road runs along to the south of that highway and ends at a farm there. A local family rented the farm. Then they continued their road around their house, and it connected to the street, to -- I forget what that is, Fourth Street I think, in Coutts. And with permission ordinarily, you'd let Patty Joe know that you wanted to take a load of whatever that way to miss the scales. Can I say that? That you were going to be going through her yard, and you'd drive through their yard and that was an alternate route, as it were. It suddenly began carrying a whole lot of traffic. And they got -- it got to the point where they couldn't use their home really.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so how is that route being during January and February of this year, when there was a full blockade on the highway, what did it allow traffic to do?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, it allowed you to miss the blockade and you could go up to -- close to the rail crossing. I don't have -- there's a county road there and it goes out onto the highway just at the rail crossing, around the curve from what we're looking at here. And so it allowed people to drive through there and miss the blockade and go on up to Milk River.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so would it allow traffic coming from the border to circumvent the blockade and go all the way up to Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It would have except it's not really a truck route, and if somebody came in driving, there's no reason that they couldn't have cut through Coutts and then through Patty Joe's place, but you'd have to know. If you're a local, you know. And, yeah, that -- you could get around, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I assume the same is true for any Coutts residents trying to get to Milk River, they could have also ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Oh, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- used that route had they known? Okay.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, everybody knew it was there and you could go that way.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And are you aware of whether RCMP was redirecting any traffic through that route?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, they did. We talked - - I talked with Curtis, Corporal Curtis Peters, who was my contact, and let him know about the road. He wanted to -- they made some communication. And what we wound up doing -- what they wound up doing was making a square. The ground was frozen and so they were able to run straight ahead from the street, make a right at the end of Patty Joe's property and go down that way, so you didn't have to go through her yard. And so it became an unofficial exit point. In fact, they took trucks through there later.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. I understand that police services for the village are provided by the provincial division of the RCMP?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And the nearest detachment is in Milk River; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And how many officers are posted there?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Four to five.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I'd like to go to COU00000249. I understand that on January 4th, a protest organizer attended the village office to advise of the upcoming protest. Do you remember that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, you'll see this is assigned Kelly. She's the assistant in the office to my CEO, and she received a phone call.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And during that phone call, how did the protester describe the anticipated protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
They were just giving us a heads up that they were going to be coming and doing a slow roll around the entrance to the country. And as you can see, it says that they won't be blocking any residents from using the entrance and exit.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we can go to COU00001515? So I understand from your witness statement that on social media, a little bit later around the 27th, I think you said, you saw a post suggesting there would be an attempt to block the border.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Is that correct? Is this the post that you saw?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, it is.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know where you saw this posting?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It was on a bulletin board out of Lethbridge. My wife spotted a link on the Lethbridge and Area How are the Roads. It's a Facebook post that obviously gives traffic reports and there was a link there, and we followed that link to this particular document.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so were you concerned at that time about the risk of a blockade occurring?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Very much so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And why were you concerned, in particular for your residents? Can you tell us about why you were concerned?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
We had been slammed by snowbirds, of which if you don't live there, that may make no sense at all, but we -- the 18th of November, the U.S. changed the border crossings to allow fully vaccinated people to enter the States. And all of the people who ordinarily go south for the winter down to Arizona in their RVs and so on decided they had to be there at midnight in order to be the first to cross the border. And we wound up with the largest demonstration anybody down there had seen yet of truck blockages and so on. And we had a highway blockage that ran across the tracks and on off over the hill. And they came into the town and double parked everywhere, blocked both entrances to the village, so that in the event that we needed to get our firetruck out or something, we wouldn't have been able to do it. So we had experience with the blockage, and I had visions of what was going to happen here as well.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding is that wasn't a protest. That just a number of people trying to cross the border at the same time?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did a lot of protesting, but, no, it wasn't a protest.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. I understand -- so if we can just pull up for reference COU183? I understand that on that same day, January 27th, you wrote to the Premier, Premier Kenney of Alberta and the Solicitor General, Sonya Savage, to advise them that you had heard about this risk of a blockade; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand someone called you the next day in response to this email?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I received a call from the Solicitor General's office. I do not know the name of the person. I remembered the name Pilgrim and nobody by that name has ever worked for the Government of Alberta that I can find, so I'm not sure who I spoke to. Anyway, saying to the effect that I had woken everybody up around -- that they had been in contact then with the police of all flavours, and they were going to -- RCMP's on top of it, and we got it under control, basically, is what I remember.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So my understanding is that you observed on January 29th the convoy driving up to the border; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, me and everybody in town were out to see what was going on.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And can you maybe just tell us what you observed on that day?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, about what I had expected. I'd seen convoy demonstrations by other groups on television and online. A lot of trucks, a lot of signs, a lot of honking, and it was a convoy; a parade of vehicles from half- tons to -- no monster trucks but large tractor-trailers.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that pinpoint, that checkpoint 4 that we looked at before on the map, that’s where you saw them begin to U-turn to head back towards Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, that’s Highway 500, and it’s a major crossing point that goes -- comes up from over the tracks out of the -- to the east of the village, and then makes a crossing there with Highway 4. So it’s the first place that you could really make a U-turn, or the last place, I guess, if you’re coming from the north. It’s the last place you could make a U-turn, either there or the next exit, and it was smaller. So the RCMP, I think, had decided this was the best place to turn everybody around.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And my understanding from your witness statement is that about 45 minutes later, you observed that they had blocked that intersection where they were U-turning; is that correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, I think the RMCP told me 42 minutes, but it happened, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And how many RCMP vehicles did you observe that day?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Again, there were -- there’s a lot going on, so I didn’t sit there and count, but I saw half a dozen vehicles. They escorted the convoy down and made sure that they made that U-turn. And that’s what happened; the vehicles started turning and going back up the road. So I saw maybe six, at the most, RCMP vehicles.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever hear about anything about it being a splinter group or something like that that had caused the blockade?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The -- well, not ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
A splinter group ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
--- in those terms, no.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- from the group that had organized the convoy?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I knew from what I was reading -- again, I spend way too much time online, but I knew from what I was reading on social media that there were other groups coming and joining up. At that time, I naïvely believed that it was all about the mandates that had been put -- well, the removal of the -- you’ll have to forgive me, I do this once in a while. I thought that it had to do with cross-border truckers having their permissions removed. For two years they’d been travelling back and forth, exempt from vaccination requirements and so on, and just when things were starting to loosen up -- I mentioned the 18th, people are starting to go across, everybody’s getting more normal feel -- suddenly the federal governments in both Canada and the US decided that you no longer have an exemption, you’re going to have to be vaccinated, and I think that was the tipping point. So I thought everybody was coming for that purpose.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Long question -- long answer.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
That’s okay. You told us in your interview the RCMP appeared to be caught off guard by the blockade. How did you come to that conclusion?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, at that 42-minute mark when the trucks drove into the median and across both lanes of traffic going both directions, it became obvious that nobody was in control. Nothing happened, other than flashing lights and talking to the guys, and it came to a standstill and that was it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Van Huigenbos yesterday told us that on January 31st, the protesters let some commercial vehicles through; commercial vehicles that had been waiting at the blockade since the time it had become blockaded. Are you aware of that, of commercial vehicles being let through on the 31st?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes. I have a vantage point in my house where I can see what’s going on on the highway, and we had been worried about these people sitting there, their loads, the refrigerated trucks, and observed them going along talking to them and some of the vehicles being let to leave.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. I understand that you had regular communications by phone and text with Minister Sawhney, former Minister of Transport for the Province; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So we’ll pull up your text messages with her and go through some of those. That’s COU00000016, and we’ll start on the second page, I believe. So in here, this is February 2nd at 12:41 p.m. Minister Swanee -- Sawhney, sorry, says: “I’m sorry this is happening. Please take care. I’m working on this non stop.” What did you understand her and the Alberta government to be doing at this time to respond to the protest at this early stage?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I understood her position, not just from texts so much, we had phone calls as well. She was working both sides; trying to talk to the people that organized the protest, and also with the provincial administration to get some kind of action happening. She’s responsible for -- or was responsible at this time for seeing that that traffic flow works; that’s our lifeline in Alberta. And so she’s pulling out all stops, talking to anybody she can. I know she talked to truckers, she talked to Marco to -- I have trouble with his last name, but he’ll forgive me. Anyway, with the contact people for the convoy, anybody that she could talk to. So knowing the Minister the way I do and the dedication that she shows for her position, means just what it says; she’s working on it nonstop.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So your understanding is that she was trying to negotiate some kind of resolution.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we can go a bit lower? Okay. So here we see at 6:16 on February 3rd, you asked Minister Sawhney whether she was willing to come to Coutts to meet the protesters; you recall that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And the response is: “Of course! I just have to get clearance from the Boss and [the] RCMP” Did she ever come to meet the protesters?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, she did not. She got as far as Lethbridge and didn’t get permission to come farther south.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you understood that to be permission from who?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The provincial government.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Did you ever receive an explanation for why that permission wasn’t granted?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Not -- no. No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you believe that it would be helpful for her to come to Coutts?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
We thought at the very first that it would be convenient because, as I said, she’s responsible for transportation and this is a transportation- related blockade. She thought that possibly she could come and talk to people and explain them that -- the importance of having that corridor continue and stop all the madness. Everybody was caught flatfooted and we were trying everything we could to get it going. So she was willing to come down and talk to whoever to make things happen to get it opened up.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If we can go down a little bit to the next page. A little bit lower. Okay. At 7:21 on February 3rd, you say, the second line: “They’ve closed the highway down again. It was open briefly. A few commercial vehicles did go through, then someone barricaded the highway again.” So can you maybe give us a sense of how often -- it seems to me that there -- the highway was reopening at times. We see later in your text messages that some traffic was trickling through. How often was the highway completely blockaded?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
You would have had to stand there and watch to be able to tell. It would be open, we’d see a truck or two or three go through, and then the next time, you know, well, it’s closed again. And the -- the whole idea, I think, that it -- at this point that they were trying to do was to open up a single lane each way and keep traffic flowing, but it was -- well, you saw my mention here earlier they’re trying to find a leader. At that time, there were several different groups. It was mob rule, I guess, is -- I don’t like that expression, but that’s -- that’s the idea. There was nobody really able to just get everybody together and say, okay, we’re going to do this and everybody would go out and do it. And so that’s what was happening. We had traffic and we didn’t have traffic.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you’re attributing that to the lack of -- the lack of leadership in the group at that time.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
At that time, yeah. There was no cohesive structure that I could see.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I think if you go down a little bit more you’ll see those comments that you just mentioned, “Still some mob rule going on. Hoping they have an established command structure soon.” You visited Smugglers Saloon and met with some protestors on February 3rd?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you observe for yourself this lack of leadership at that time?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did. I talked to Alex van Herck, who turned out being one of the people that became a de facto leader, I guess, and the expression -- I’ve heard it used here before talking about other places, it was like herding cats, him trying to get some order out of the chaos that was going on. There’s video that exists of him talking to people and trying to get them to listen to him and being shouted down because that’s -- that was the nature of the beast at the time.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we could go to page 10 of this document. So this is February 5th at 2:16. So you see that second bubble, you say, “Now that Marco seems to have established control, it might be good for someone to talk about provincial mandates.” And then if we go just down just a little bit, she responds, “Let’s chat later.” So is your understanding that at this time on February 5th a clearer leadership structure was emerging in the group?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you have a discussion with Minister Sawhney regarding provincial mandates at that time?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It’s quite possible. We had phone calls in here, but you’ve seen how good my memory is. I know we talked about it from time to time what could be done and what was being done, but I’m under oath and I can’t say for sure.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If we can go just a bit -- just to page 12, and this is February 5th at 11:59. So just a bit lower till we get to 11:59. There we go. Here you tell Minister Sawhney that the messaging to the protestors needs to be controlled better. There seems to be conflicting messages being circulated as true. Do you recall that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what was the problem with the messaging at that time, as you understood it?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The feeling that I was getting was that someone was building up hopes that things are going to happen on a provincial level very quickly and the Premier’s going to announce that all the mandates are off. We knew government doesn’t work that quickly. Premier Kenney was, the old expression, caught between a rock and a hard place. He’s definitely there because we know all the stuff that goes on. He was working to remove as many mandates as possible as quickly as possible, but a lot of these people were being told that there was going to be a caucus meeting and they were going to drop all the mandates. And I don’t know where that came from, exactly.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can go to page 14. It’s February 6th at 2:40 p.m. So you say that you talked to Mayor Feyter, and I believe that’s the Mayor of Fort MacLeod. Is that right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And Glen Motz, who’s a federal MP; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
He’s our MP for the -- yeah, for that riding.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And you say you talked to them about Marco, “Marco is not in favour of the legal action, has been working to move toward a legal protest.” And when you say moving towards working towards a legal protest, did you understand that to be opening one lane each way?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were those efforts successful?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Again, it depends on the time of day and which way the wind was blowing. Sometimes it was successful. My son came down from Edmonton one day -- from Calgary, rather -- came down from Calgary one day and after he got through the checkpoint in Milk River, he drove into Coutts. He said there’s no trucks out there. So they were shifting and moving things around, so sometimes the road was open and sometimes it wasn’t.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If we can go to page 15, February 7th at 10:20. I believe it’s at the bottom of the page. So Minister Sawhney says, “I heard the blockade is back up.” And you respond -- if we could go to the next page, I believe. You say, “Yep, tractors just now, highway is blocked.” If we keep going. Keep going. She says, “I guess they were hoping for an announcement today.” Was your understanding that the -- this tractor blockade on February 7th was because of frustrations associated with the lack of an anticipated announcement as you were just mentioning?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s the word that I got, yeah, from talking to someone else, that they’d been expecting the announcement to come down that when all the mandates were off, and again, this is from misinformation they were getting from somewhere, and when they didn't they blocked the road again.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And this is a member of the protest who told you this?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So the next day, on February 8th, Premier Kenney announced a plan for the gradual easing of pandemic-related health orders. Did that have any impact on the blockade?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Not by then. As I said, they had been told and led to believe that everything was going to come off, and obviously it didn't. And so those people who chose not to understand how government works decided they were going to show us, so blocked it again.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we can go to page 19. This is on February 8th. If we can go down a little bit. Down a bit more. So you say: "Need access to some land. No construction." And then on page 20, if we can skip down. Minister Sawhney says: "I'm glad...we could help you out with the land parcel." Was that in connection with the plot of land for the legal protest site ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- that was established in Milk River?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes. Yes, I had been in the meeting in Milk River with the mayor from Milk River, Reeve from the County of Warner, some representatives from -- I'm trying to think who else was in there. Anyway, we had had a meeting and a discussion of where to have an alternate parcel of land. The Milk River people and the County determined that there was Queensland available, and so I happened to have the contact information for the Minister of Transport who could make that happen, and that's what happened here. I gave her the note that they'd be calling her, they did, she made things happen so I could get that parcel.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you understand, was there any buy-in from protesters on moving the protest to that site?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No. At that time, there wasn't a great deal of interest in moving from the highway to a plot of land just beside the highway.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand, though, that once the blockade in Coutts came to an end there is a group that moved to that site.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Is that correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And they stayed there for a number of weeks?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
For a long time. It looked like a unhoused encampment.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So let's go to page 26, February 14th, at 12:42 p.m. So Minister Sawhney asked you: "Are there people still there at the blockade?" You respond: "Oh yeah. Nobody's leaving yet. It's all fake news." So your understanding at that time was that the protesters were not leaving yet; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That is correct. I didn't hear until later in the afternoon that things were changing.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you hear that afternoon?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sometime in the afternoon or early evening, I think it was my contact with RCMP, Corporal Peters, let me know that they had been notified the thing was coming to an end.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So you were told by the RCMP that they had been notified by protesters that day that they would be leaving the site?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand you had a conversation with Mr. Jory Evans, who was a protester, about that ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- as well? When did you have the conversation with him about this decision to end the blockade?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sometime on the 14th, but I don't -- without pulling it up, I don't have the exact time. Well -- and I'm not sure times were on there or not. Yeah, we were in contact quite a bit that day. Jory, I still don't know his real position in the group, but he was doing a lot of videoing. He did a -- he had a blog online and so on called PB & J. Just a -- kind of a news summary of what was going on, and what they knew and what they didn't know. And he and I had established a rapport early on, and communicated back and forth, obviously nothing confidential, but talking about stuff. And -- so he had let me know that day, first of all, contacted me to know if I knew how to contact the person who had been arrested, and then we went on from there. And he talked about the guns, or the arrests and the guns. The guns were all fake, but the fact that people don't want to have anything to do with it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So he explained to you that day that -- he spoke to you about the RCMP's arrest, and did he explain to you that that was one of the reasons why the protesters had decided to leave?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, that's the feeling I got. I don't know if he actually said that or not. In my mind, at this point in the time, it's -- well, yeah, that's what he said, but I -- unless I see it in writing I'm not going to say it for sure. I got that feeling, though, that because of what had happened that the mood in the crowd had changed and they were going to depart.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And your -- was your understanding that the agreement was that they would, or that their intention was to leave the next morning?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did you observe them leave the morning of the 15th?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did actually, yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so no enforcement was required by the RCMP at that time to get them to leave?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No. On the night of the 14th, they lined up all their vehicles down the street. We have a auction firm out there called Ritchie Bros, they auction off from time to time a lot of agricultural equipment, and I said it looked like the biggest sale that Ritchie Bros ever had because they were all lined up down the... And it was mostly tractors. At that point there weren't a lot of trucks around. But anyway, they lined up down the street on the 14th, then I received the word they're going to go at 10, and at 10 o'clock they were gone. Well, they left.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so you're not aware of any enforcement powers available under the Emergencies Act being used to clear the blockade then?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, that had nothing to do with it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
When you met with the protesters on -- at Smuggler Saloon on February 3rd, did they explain to you what their plan was, what their objective was?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No. No, there was no -- I talked to Alex briefly in a back room, just off the main floor there, and I never seen a man look so haggard and beat as he did at that time. I don't know if I got there just after he had tried to talk to people. Marco says he was there, but Marco was avoiding me. So anyway, he's on video talking about "wish you guys would want to leave" and getting shouted down. So I don't know if I talked to him just after that or not, but no, there was no... I talked so long I forgot the question.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I was asking about February 3rd, ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- when you attended the Smuggler’s Saloon. Did you get a sense that they had an exit strategy?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Oh, at that time, no. No, the feeling that I got was, from talking to a couple of other people in the crowd was, “No, we’re here until mandates are off.” That was…
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we could go to COU00000012? These are your Facebook messages with Mr. Evans.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
M’hm.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I’d like to go to page 2. Go down a little bit. Okay. So here he tells you, and I think this is in the context of the mandates, the provincial mandates: “Yeah they keep ignoring and these guys wanna get this shit done and go home […] Also connected with the group that closed down Windsor ON today and things are going crazy in Ottawa so it […] adds flames to that fire over there” In your discussions with Mr. Evans, did you ever understand that the -- were the protestors in Coutts in communications with protestors in Ottawa or Windsor? What was your understanding of that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
This is my understanding of that. I have no other -- we never talked about it otherwise.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So this text message is -- this text message is all you ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s it. Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- all you have. Okay. Thank you. I understand that Mr. Evans told you about concerns he had with more extreme elements participating in the protest. Can you tell us about that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. We had a meeting where we talked -- I talked for quite a bit, for 45 minutes or so. And one of the things I -- if you go back far enough in my history, bear with me, go back far enough in my history, I worked in mining in Northern Manitoba, was a steelworker, was a steelworker steward, went through wildcat strikes and so on. And there were always hardline guys, and then the guys that were there for a goodtime. You could have a wildcat strike and everybody is up and up and up and then it tapered off and you wound up with the core, and you might even find guys that you’d never seen before there. And we talked about how that was a danger and if something like this longer went on, the more the opportunity existed for outside elements to come in and cause disruption.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And he agreed with -- -
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
And he agreed with that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
He agreed with that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That was one of his concerns.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you yourself observe the nature of the protests changing over time?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The mood changed. I talked about, somewhere, it being almost like a big community meeting of all the farmers in the area. And this was -- don’t kid yourself to think this is a big trucker protest. This is mostly a farm protest.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I think you, in your witness statement, you say that about your meeting on February 4th?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. And, you know, they had the kids there and it was just a family thing. As it went on, a lot of that attitude disappeared. Didn’t see a lot of kids playing hockey anymore. And just -- and if you follow their social media, they took a picture when it was all over, just before they left, which was handy for anybody investigating, but a picture of the whole group in front of Smuggler’s, and it wasn’t a large group at that time. It had gotten smaller. But to go back to my strike days, it’s the same thing. As -- the longer you do something like this and you go in expecting results right away and it doesn’t happen, the more disheartened you become, and then you start listening to other things about, well, if we only did this, this would happen, and so on. So it’s just -- it’s a typical demonstration. And while I didn’t have a crystal ball, if I had, it would have paid off, because what we feared seems to have happened.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you observe any violence or harassment during the protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Never did. No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you yourself receive any threats?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes. I got one death threat online. Facebook. Serious enough that the RCMP took it seriously. I’m not sure how good a threat it was, because it was sent from a personal page. But anyway. It was a death threat. And I received calls. Everybody gets phone calls. Just the phone and hang up, or phone and “You thought you wanted to be mayor, ha-ha.” You know? Like that kind of stuff. I had people out front taking pictures of my house and it was first time I’d done this, so it was a little nerve-racking.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Did you ever observe any weapons yourself around that time in Coutts?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, we didn’t. Some of the protestors were staying in the motel across the road from where I live, and we saw from time to time them moving heavy hockey bags, and my wife said, “It’s guns,” but we had no weapons that I ever witnessed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever hear anything about efforts by protestors to dissuade tow truck drivers from assisting the RCMP?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Not directly. Social media, I saw what was going on. But I never directly talked to anyone.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have any discussions with CBSA officials about the protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Never did. Other than see somebody at the post office or something. Some of them live there.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that the RCMP attended a village council meeting on February 8th, and in your summary you state that they described their response as “building the airplane while you’re flying it.” What did you understand those comments to be referring to?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well just the way it sounds. As I said, we all got caught flatfooted. Nobody had expected this to happen. And the -- I’m not sure of his rank, but anyway, the answer to the question was, “We’re building the airplane as we’re flying it. We’re making it up as we go along. We’ve got tactics, and we’re trying them, and if they don’t work, we try something else until we find out how it works.” It was an education, I guess, for everyone.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. In the short time we have left, I’d just like to talk about the impact on the village and its residents. In the summary, you say that the blockade greatly disrupted everyday life for Coutts residents. Could you maybe explain to us in what ways?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I have done a mental survey and I think I had about a 70/30 split in the village, with 30 on my side and 70 supporting the protest, regardless of what it meant. The -- we still have neighbours that won’t talk to each other because of the protests. They didn’t -- they didn’t get out and -- we had a lot of collaborators -- not collaborators; sympathetic people in the village who figured it was our duty to feed everybody; if they need a room, give them a room. These are all good people and we should really look after them. As unneighbourly and heartless as it seems, my opinion was if you came down here and you blockaded the highway and now you’re not wanting to leave the protest, but you need your medication that you left at home, the road goes that way, go get your medication, instead of making a public scene about, “I don’t have my medicine, can you bring it to me?” “We don’t have food do,” you know? “You got food at home.” That what my answer to those kind of complaints. My neighbours being good, rural Alberta people figure somebody’s in need, you look after them regardless of how they got there, I guess. And there was a lot of sympathy over the -- and as I said, the driving force of the protest, the original cause had to do with cross-border vaccination and then it mutated into “My body, my rights, my...” -- you know, all of the different conspiracy things that were going on.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
How’s ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
And then people -- people didn’t let that go, and so it still exists to this day.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
How significantly did the protest interfere with residents’ ability to access services in Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Depending on the person, how comfortable they were with driving past monster pieces of equipment. I think we heard Marco yesterday talk about how one tractor is intimidating even if it’s sitting still, if you haven’t been around them. When you get a whole row of them, some of them idling; you’ve got trucks, big pieces of equipment and you’re out there in your little Prius wanting to go up to Milk River to get groceries, it can be very intimidating. Other people; we have a lot of retired farmers; it didn’t bother them that much. Had one guy just the other day say, “You’re going to testify be sure you tell ’em we were never blocked in, could always make it up there. Had to drive through the field a couple of times but we weren’t really blockaded.” So it depended on the person and how they could handle it. And it affected some people -- I have a friend who is a veteran of Afghanistan and she has PTSD. She had -- they had to leave town because it triggered her PTSD and she just couldn’t take it. They’re back now. Older people; had one lady who would -- if somebody drove her out to -- for a doctor’s appointment or something, she would curl up in a ball -- I wasn’t going to do this -- but just depends on the person; how they grew up, what their situations are. Some people it really bothered.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Did you hear any reports of intimidation of some of your resident -- residents by protestors?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
A couple, and you take it as -- you know, take everything with a grain of sand -- grain of sand; grain of salt. The -- had a couple of people tell me that they were coming back into Coutts and being stopped by protestors and saying -- they’d say to the guy, “Now, what do you think? Should we let these people through or not?” Or, “Should let this guy through?” And, you know, “Where do you think you’re going?” and that kind of thing. But nothing -- we had a situation where a neighbour -- someone decided it’d be funny to tell everybody that there were free showers at her house, so she had people showing up at the door, that kind of thing. But not a lot of -- there was no physical intimidation, and it was basically just the going through the gauntlet to get out of the village. Like I said, if you drove through and up the highway and through the ditch maybe, well, you could go, so...
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And lastly, I just wanted to ask you, was there any impact on emergency services or access to emergency services?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
For the most part, no. When it first happened, it was like when we had the RVs there; the entrances, they said they wouldn’t block it. You have to understand, we depend on the ambulance coverage from Milk River, the medical clinic there. We have a volunteer fire department, we have volunteer EMS, and you’d have to understand AHS to note that -- health services to know why we have an ambulance that we can’t use. But anyway, we have one. We cover -- our fire department that is a rural fire department that covers everything out in the surrounding area, specially to the east. There’s only that road at 501, which is the road that crosses the tracks to get out to you there. That was one of my major concerns, was that we had egress quickly in the event of an emergency. And then that we could get an ambulance in. The RCMP ran an ambulance down the highway to test that and the protestors were able to clear it through quickly, so it was handled. But for the first few hours, there wasn’t any awareness on the part of the people. I said more than once, I got the impression that the protestors -- Coutts was an afterthought. They wanted to plug the highway and, “Oh gee, there’s 250 people over here and we kind of affected them too.” So it took us a while to work that out, but -- now, after everybody was made aware, things were fairly good.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you so much. Those are my questions, ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- Mayor Willett.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So first up is the Government of Canada, please.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANDREA GONSALVES
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Mayor Willett.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good morning.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrea Gonsalves, and I’m one of the lawyers representing the Government of Canada in this Inquiry. Thank you for being here today. I just have a few questions for you. And I want to start by talking about the port of entry at Coutts. And I understand on the other side of the border is the town of Sweet Grass, yes?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sweet Grass, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. That port of entry, you’ll agree with me, is of vital importance to not only the Coutts community, Milk River, the surrounding communities, but also the Province of Alberta and Canada as a whole?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I understand that Highway 4 is the primary access to that port of entry, although there’s one sideroad that’s not suitable for commercial vehicles, right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it’s the only designated commercial port of entry in all of Alberta?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I -- yeah, it’s the only 24-hour port, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. That port of entry allows for the cross-border transport of livestock, agricultural goods, and other imports and exports that are critical to Alberta’s supply chain and the economy; yes?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you can see, I assume from, really, your front door, the constant flow of trucks that are carrying billions of dollars’ worth of goods north and south across that border.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Now, you’ve told us that you learned early on of plans to -- that there were plans in the works for protesters to engage in slow roll protests in the vicinity of the Coutts port of entry?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And those quickly evolved into plans to actually block the highway to the border.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that would have really a two-fold impact on the people of Coutts, both their access north into Milk River and the amenities there; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
As well as south down across the border. And so I would expect this raised some alarms for you as Mayor of this village?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you acted quickly to communicate to residents how they could best prepare themselves; right? You sent out that little notice.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I did.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. It's COU00000001. I don't think we need to pull it out unless you want to look at it. But you were trying to best equip your residents for the unknown of what was going to come; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that notice included advice like pretending that they live in a big city?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
What did you mean by that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
With the risk of giving too much away, a lot of people don't lock their doors. You might have a car that you know so-and-so needs to borrow, you'll put the keys in the car. We've got a almost zero percent crime rate because of our location and because of the fact that CBSA people live there and the guy that you broke into might have a gun. So the -- just people get very comfortable with -- it's typical small town Alberta.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were folks coming in that nobody knew ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- and you were concerned that that might pose a safety and security risk to the people of Coutts?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. It's -- like I told a lot of people, you're driving south getting ready to hit the border, you don't even know Coutts is there, and -- although we can watch and wave. The -- and if you've got a stranger in town word gets around. So, you know, there's a car going around and I don't know who it belongs to, and oh, that's so-and-so, they're visiting so-and-so, you know. The telegraph works very well. And all of a sudden we're going with -- the potential existed that we were going to have massive influx of people driving up and down the streets, and I just wanted everybody to be careful. "Don't let your kids to run across to the playground because somebody might be coming not looking for kids there. Everybody in town knows your kids there, but if they come in from out of town they don't." Just a heightened awareness, I guess, of your situation.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And another step you took in the early stages was to reach out to provincial -- the provincial government; yes?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We saw in your examination by Commission Counsel the January 27th email that you wrote to Solicitor General Savage to advise of the plan to protest. Do you recall that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And one of the things you mentioned in that email you raised the possibility of the situation being dealt with using Alberta's Critical Infrastructure Protection Act. Do you remember that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I do.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I understand that was raised on January 29th in a letter you sent to the Minister of Justice, and on January 30th in an email to Premier Kenney. Do you recall those communications?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I'll just note for the record, but we don't have to pull them up, it's COU00000005 and COU00000006. And in your understanding, that legislation was really purpose built for this kind of thing?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Exactly.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Now, you have spoken a bit about the disruptions that the blockade of the highway caused for the people of Coutts. And I just wanted to pull up some photos. It's PB.NSC.CAN00008500_REL.0001. You mentioned that you did travel to the protest sites on occasion. I just want to confirm that these photos reflect or are similar to what you recall seeing when you were there.
The Clerk (POEC)
Apologies. Could you repeat that document ID, please?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. The whole thing? PB.NSC.CAN.00008500_REL.0001. And we'll begin, please, at page 4. Now, this is an RCMP document, so I wouldn't expect you've seen the document before, it's just the photos. Is that a picture of the blockade at Coutts the best you can recognise? Or up on Highway 4?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Bear with me.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We'll just make that a little bigger there.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I can't place that exactly. It doesn't actually look like the Coutts end of it, it looks more like the Milk River.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The Milk River end of it. Okay.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, I think that's 501.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And what we see there, though, is the -- there are trucks parked in the median between the two directions of the highway?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, but again, this is actually not a full blockade. They're doing a slow roll through that.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's a slow roll.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let's go down to page 7, please.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Okay, that's Coutts.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's Coutts? Okay. And page 9.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, those are both Coutts.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, and let's go to page 10, please. Sorry, it's not the one I wanted. The tray 29. Are you able to place that one? That may be Checkpoint 10.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Hmm. It doesn't get any bigger?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If you don't recognise it, that's okay, we'll ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, I don't ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- have others.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
--- for sure know where I am there.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. That's okay. It may be further down the highway than you were able to make your way to.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, you discussed your interactions with Corporal Curtis Peters.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we have those text exchanges at COU00000011. In one of your text exchanges you spoke -- you asked him to speak to the school bus driver. I just wanted to be clear on this. Children from Coutts attend school in Milk River?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That is correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in this text message, you're explaining that the weather is supposed to turn bad, and you were concerned about her travelling on the highway and folks having to navigate the field to drop off and retrieve their kids. Can you just explain that concern?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. The school bus driver was a little concerned with coming through the blockade, and so what she had offered as a solution was to come basically the back way on a county road up to Patty Jo's that we talked about. But the fact is that you have to drive either through there or through the field and she didn't feel comfortable taking the bus through there. So what she had suggested was that the people in town who had kids would bring them all out and meet her on the county road. And that's what that was.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You also mentioned in your text to Corporal Peters that folks on home care in Coutts had not been visited since the blockade started.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that was one of your concerns.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It was.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I want to pull up, please, COU00000002. This is a text exchange you had with Bill Graveland. And that’s who?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I’m sorry?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Bill Graveland?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Oh, Bill Graveland. Yeah. He’s a reporter for Canadian Press.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we go to page 3, please? Just scrolling down there. Okay. Stop there. In the first blue box, your test says: “Morning Bill. The more things change the more they stay the same. You need to find someone in a protected position to call these guys what they are, Domestic Terrorists. Won’t be me. They are right outside my window. I would be strung up, literally. Just a thought.” Why did you describe the protestors as domestic terrorists?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, unlike most of the people in the front rows here, I’m a Google lawyer. So it -- when I looked for the definition of a domestic terrorist, these people seemed to fit that bill, and yet no one ever labeled them that. And so I just floated the idea out there, one side to Bill and the other side to Minister Sawhney that maybe they should be called that to get a little more attention.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You felt they were terrorizing people by their behaviour?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Because they were causing harm to the country.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And if we go down to page 4, if we could scroll down a little bit more? Just pause there. Sorry, again a little bit further down. H’m. My note may be off. There’s a text where you -- if we could just go back up? Let me try again. Up a little more. Yeah. Okay. I’m not seeing it. There’s a text in this collection where you say that: “A more extreme element has moved in and I am concerned about the final outcome.” Does that sound familiar to you?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. In your interview summary, you spoke about a sermon delivered on February 3rd at the Smuggler’s Saloon by a Pastor Artur Pawlowski.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And he -- have you seen that sermon? Whether ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, I have.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Could we please pull up PB.CAN.0000 -- hope this is right -- 1845_REL.0001?
The Clerk (POEC)
Was that PB.CAN.0001845?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I hope so.
The Clerk (POEC)
Is it a multimedia file?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. Yeah. While we’re digging that up, that sermon, I understand, was delivered on a day when MLA Hunter had told you he had negotiated a deal with protestors to open up one lane of traffic? Do you recall that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I think that’s right, yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in a text message to Minister Sawhney, you described this sermon as being inciting?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
As being?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Inciting.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Inciting? Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And in your interview summary, you said that it strengthened the protestor’s resolve. Do you recall that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I’m hoping we can just watch ---
The Clerk (POEC)
Sorry, having difficulty locating that one.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I want to come back. You told us that you also received a death threat, other threats, and that a truck was parked outside your house taking photos of it; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And it’s fair to say that as time is going on, frustration is increasing, as is concern over how this may end; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And your efforts to engage higher levels of government were focused really on the Province of Alberta?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Did you ever receive any explanation for why the Province did not make use of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Act, as you had suggested?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, I did not. But you have to remember I’m the mayor of a small village. I’m kind of at the bottom of the ladder. So I was not privy to everything that was going on.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I now have the correct reference for that video. It’s RE -- sorry, PB.CAN.0000.135 -- 1835, 1835. And Mayor, while we’re waiting for that to be pulled up, in the few minutes I have left, you’re aware that what was going on in Coutts was not isolated; right? There were also border blockades ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes. Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- at the port of entry at Emerson, ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- Ambassador bridge in Windsor, ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- Pacific Highway near Surrey, B.C., ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- of course the occupation of the City of Ottawa. And -- video ---
The Clerk (POEC)
You said 1835?
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One eight three five (1835). Yeah. And you said earlier, I thought I heard your evidence that in some respects, it was a typical demonstration, but of course, as time went on, you wouldn’t describe the Coutts Border Blockade as being a typical demonstration?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
David Shiroky, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me, sorry, just to step in, David Shiroky, counsel for the Government of Canada. I believe that it’s PB.CAN. ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
David Shiroky, Counsel (GC)
---00001835. I think there may have been an NSC ---
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Oh, is that ---
David Shiroky, Counsel (GC)
--- in the previous reading, but there’s no NSC.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
No.
David Shiroky, Counsel (GC)
It’s just PB.CAN.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Mr. Shiroky.
The Clerk (POEC)
It is here. I just need to download it. It’ll just be a moment.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you. I think I can do the rest of my questions and come back to that. And of course, you’re aware, Mayor, that ultimately search warrants were carried out the morning of February 14th?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And a cache of weapons and body armour was seized?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were a number of arrests made; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were informed, in addition to these arrests, an attempt was made by a vehicle to ram a police vehicle?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Again, we don’t have to pull it up while Mr. Clerk is doing me another favour, but the email to you about those arrests is COU00000453. And even with those arrests, I think I understood your evidence that it took some time for the protestors to clear out?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, some time. It happened on the 14th and they left on the 15th. Yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And that was after the Emergencies Act had been invoked; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Just barely, yeah.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned in your witness summary, you understood there were rumours circulating among the protestors that the Emergencies Act would be invoked, and among other things, their bank accounts could be frozen; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. Again, that was social media. But yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Okay. So I’m -- Mr. Commissioner, I’m just waiting for that video to load.
The Clerk (POEC)
Apologies. Just one more moment.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That’s okay. It’s my fault. And we’ll just play from the beginning, not the whole thing but just... (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We can pause that there, thank you. Mayor Willett, is that video of the sermon that Pastor Pawlowski delivered at the Smuggler’s Saloon on February 3rd?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It is, yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s the video you understand was -- or you’ve described as inciting the crowd?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Alberta.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Good morning. Hana Laura Yamamoto for the Government of Alberta. Can you see and hear me?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Perfect.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. HANA LAURA YAMAMOTO
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Good morning, Mayor Willett. I have a few questions for you.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good morning.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Clerk, if you could please ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you identify yourself, for the record. You may have but it didn’t come across.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Of course, Commissioner. Hana Laura Yamamoto for the Province of Alberta. Mr. Clerk, if you could please bring up WTS00000012; it’s been up before. This is your witness statement. (SHORT PAUSE)
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
And just while that’s coming up; so on page 5 you stated that you did not receive the type of support you expected from the provincial and federal governments. So what kind of support did you expect from the federal government?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
At that point, it seemed like we were not getting anywhere, and I was looking for somebody to do something to get the highway unblocked and get things happening again. So any kind of support would have been -- make them go away and make this end. I wasn’t in a position to say exactly who should do what, but somebody should appear to be doing something, and at this time it didn’t look like anybody was doing much.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And so I have the same question with respect to provincial government; what kind of support did you expect from the provincial government?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Same story. We had the -- as I mentioned before, an Act that was supposed to give unlimited powers, basically, to protect infrastructure and remedy this exact problem, and yet it appeared to me nothing was going on. Now, I’ve seen the situation reports since then and it showed that there was action in the background, but I wasn’t privy to that, so where I was sitting in my office looking out the window, I didn’t see anything happening.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. So now that you say that there’s things that you saw going on in the background, in your opinion is that statement still true, that you believe that the provincial government should have made better use of the Critical Infrastructure Act?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I guess it goes back to the statement that the RCMP made to me about building the airplane as we’re flying it. I understand that the Province was in the same situation; like, looking for tow trucks and that kind of thing. So probably my opinion is not as harsh as it was at the time. I believe the Province was doing more than was visible to me and most people. There were things going on that -- where if we’d gone a little farther down the road -- no pun intended, if we’d gone a little farther down the road there would have been actual physical action taken. So my opinion has changed a bit.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Thank you, Mayor. So you understand as well that the RCMP was the lead agency responsible for responding to the border blockade occurring at Coutts, and they would make the operational plans and decisions?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I don’t know if it was my ears playing tricks or not; can you do that a little slower, please?
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
I apologize. I should slow down for the translator as well. So you understand that the RCMP would have been the lead agency responsible for responding to the border blockades occurring at Coutts, and they would have made the operational plans and decisions?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Correct.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And you worked with the RCMP throughout this blockade?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
We were in contact all the time, yeah.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. So Mr. Clerk, if I could have you pull up ALB00000908.0001? So what you’re going to see here is a statement from the Alberta Minister of Justice and Solicitor General Savage on February 8th, 2022. Now, the fourth and fifth paragraphs from the bottom is just where we want to go. Perfect. And it says: “Those participating in this illegal blockade could potentially face charges or actions under any number of laws including...” And it includes the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, and goes on to say: “Whatever action law enforcement may take is at their independent discretion. I trust the authorities to lay appropriate charges wherever the evidence provides reasonable grounds [to do] so.” So based on that statement, do you now understand that it’s the RCMP that would have made decisions whether or not to undertake enforcement under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Correct, I understand that, yeah.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. We saw your texts with Minister Sawhney; we don’t have to pull them up, but those would be under COU00000016. So these texts show contact every day, often multiple times a day, from February 2nd to 18th, as well as you said you had phone calls with Minister Sawhney?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And you also had a phone call with the Premier?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
And at no time did you make a request for specific supports or assistance from the Province?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I think we -- when I talked to the Premier, we talked more in generalities. As I said earlier, he was kind of caught in a pinch-point between “Darned if I do and darned if I don’t”; we talked about that. He talked about the fact that he could only do so much because of the lack of surge capacity in the hospitals. He mentioned that he was going to be talking to governors in the northern states to see if they would put pressure on, on that side, because even if we did get rid of the provincial mandates, the federal mandates still sat there, and that was the thing that triggered the whole deal in the first place. So, no, it was more a generality thing. I did not hit him up for any kind of action.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
But based on that conversation, there were things that the Alberta government was doing to support removing the border blockade at Coutts.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
And again, I only caught about half of that. I'm deaf in one ear and I can't hear in the other one so.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
I apologise. I'll slow down and speak up. And based on that conversation with Premier Kenney, Alberta was providing supports if not -- even if you weren't asking for specific supports; correct?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And you had wanted Minister Sonya to speak with protestors?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It was not my suggestion. It was her suggestion. She thought that she could come and talk to people in the first day or two because she was getting feedback from the fact that there are truckers stuck. She wanted to come, and I don't know what she had planned to say, but it was her suggestion that she come down.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And you had said that the protestors were like herding cats?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
The protestors were letting ---
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Were like herding cats, sorry, excuse me.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, that's what Alex told me when -- the first time I made contact with the guys, the smugglers, he said at that time that it was like herd -- that's my expression, but that was the impression. He said he could get a group here and a group there and try and get them all together and they'd make a decision, then they'd walk out the door and forgot what they'd talked about. So he was very frustrated.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
So there was no definitive leader of the protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
At that point, there didn't appear to be.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And I just have one point of clarification. So in your evidence with my friend Commission Counsel, you said that tractors lined up on the side of the road on the 14th. And I just want to clarify, that's so traffic could flow?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Oh, by then they were off the highway, and I think at that point, traffic was being held up in Milk River still, but there wasn't any really physical blockading going on, on the morning on the 15th, possibly on the evening of the 14th. I couldn't do 24-hour coverage. But, no, the tractors were all lined up. They were just getting ready to leave as a group, and so they pulled them all in -- actually pulled them into the village and down that street and lined them up along there, so they were out of the way.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. And you're not sure if that was the evening of the 14th, or did that start the evening of the 14th where they were moving the tractors?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
When I went down the morning of the 15th to see what was going on, they were all lined up down the street. That's all I know, and I don't know exactly when. Like I say, I wasn't sitting, watching them 24 hours a day, so I'm not sure when they moved.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Okay. Perfect. Thank you, Mayor Willett. That's all my questions.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MICHAEL FINLEY
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Good morning ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good morning.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
--- Mayor Willett. My name's Michael Finley. I represent the City of Windsor, which as I'm sure you're aware, is a fellow border municipality.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And we heard today, Mayor Willett, you live just blocks away from the protest site and indeed the border; right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No matter where you are in Coutts, you're only blocks away, yeah.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And that border crossing is an important link; true?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It definitely is.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And I think you described it earlier as a lifeline and something with larger importance than just to the village of Coutts; is that fair?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That's correct.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And I guess perhaps I'm stating the obvious, sir, but fair to say that the village of Coutts doesn't have sufficient resources on its own to ensure the security of that border crossing?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Or, in fact, to deal with a blockade of the magnitude that you faced earlier this year?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, our police force, as you heard, is four or five officers stationed in Milk River.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Right.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
RCMP.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And so a situation like that requires more than a local response; is that fair?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Correct.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Including because you noted earlier, provincial support?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And federal support too?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, well, that's RCMP, so it's provincial and federal.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
And so that being so, would you agree that one might benefit from having a plan or at least a framework in advance to deal with situations like the one you experienced, even if they're not exactly the same, in future?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sure, yeah. It would be nice. Dealing with hindsight is 20/20 but it would have been nice to have a plan, yeah.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
I think you spoke about being caught flatfooted and building an airplane while it's flying. I guess we can agree you're sticking with that metaphor? It's probably better to have the plane assembled in advance before it takes to the air?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, if we're talking about police response, they had response for certain situations, but this was a situation that was unique, at the time, to anything they'd faced. And so I'm not going to be an apologist for the RCMP, but I think they were doing well under the circumstances. I don't think it's fair to say they had no plan. They would have had plans for demonstrations and so on, just nothing of this magnitude.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Right. And I suppose all I'm getting at is it's better in this type of circumstance, I hope you'll agree with me, when you have a multijurisdictional issue to deal with to have some plan in advance to address it?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Michael Finley, Counsel (Win)
Well, thank you, sir. Those are all my questions.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good morning, Mayor. For the record, Brendan Miller. I'm appearing as counsel for Freedom Corp., which represents the protestors that were in the City of Ottawa in January and February. How are you doing?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good. How are you?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Long flight. I love driving through Coutts.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So beautiful part of the country. So if we could please bring up -- it's the document that my friends have already referred to from the federal government. It's the Canada document ending 8500 that was just up?
The Clerk (POEC)
Apologies. Do you have the full doc ID?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yes, I do. It is PB.NSC.CAN.00008500. Okay. Can we please scroll to page 32? It's just loading still. There we go. Okay. So this is a document my friend put to you. It's a Power Point put together by the RCMP. And there you can see that they are doing what they refer to as media engagement and talking and listening to protesters, supporters and residents of Coutts. Did you witness any of that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Not personally.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I -- only on ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
--- line.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
But you ended up going and speaking to the protestors yourself too; didn't you?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand that when you did that, you ended up doing an interview with CTV and City News about that experience; do you remember that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I don't.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Well, let me ask you if you remember saying this. I just want to put this -- this is a statement that's been attributed to you. "I wasn't negotiating or anything else. I was just there to find out if they were as bad as some people have said, and they're certainly not." Do you remember saying that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sounds like something I would say, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And do you remember saying this about the protestors, "They're the same guys that I have for neighbours."
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That was part of the uniqueness of this whole demonstration, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And you also said, "They're the guy that owns the farm up on the hill, the guy that hauls for local businesses." Remember saying that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Probably did.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And this situation, I understand, polarised your community. There was -- the community was essentially divided by half supporting, half against the truckers. Is that fair?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
As I said earlier, probably 70-30.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
70-30.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
On a good day, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And was that 70-30 in support or which one was in the 30 and 70?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That would have been supporting the -- the protests.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Seventy (70) percent or 30 percent supporting the protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
No, 70.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Seventy (70) percent.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. So the majority of your town.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Majority of the town, was the feeling I got.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And there was signs up and flags of all kinds that were on residences of your town’s property. Is that fair?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
A few, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And can you tell me about some of the ones you saw and describe them? I know some of them were a bit vulgar, but if you’d like to.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Everybody has seen them. The Trudeau flags, the ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The ones that say “F Trudeau”?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah, okay.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Some of the Gadsen flags, the “Don’t Treat on Me”. A lot of Canadian flags, many of them inverted, which I wholeheartedly do not approve of.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And those flags were in your own community.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah. A lot of U.S. flags. Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And because you’re right on the border with Montana there; right? There is an intersect between the population in Montana and Coutts. Is that fair?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah. And can you explain, how long have you been in rural Alberta politics?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
In rural Alberta politics since I was elected to Council -- we had this discussion -- five years ago.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what’s the vibe you get or the interactions you have with your residents with respect to their support or lack of support for the federal government as it currently is composed?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, I’ll quote my CAO, “Trudeau hates us”, and that’s basically -- you could talk to anybody here. There’s a great dislike for the federal government on a high percentage.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. And what is these dislikes? What are they about? What are these people’s grievances in your residents and in that area?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Genetic. I don’t know how you -- I’ve lived in Alberta for half my life, which means a long time, and I’ve seen this “us versus them” thing grow, east versus west. I spend too much time on social media. But the feeling -- smarter minds than me have tried to figure it out. I really don’t understand the great dislike for the federal government.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
So there was -- I don’t know if you got the opportunity to watch -- did you watch the testimony of Ms. Tamara Lich in this proceeding because it was played out on TV?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I saw some of it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Did you -- do you remember when she said that a lot of Albertans feel that they don’t have a voice because the elections that are in -- resulting in the elections of MP and the federal executive are determined before they even vote and that they just don’t feel represented in Ottawa? Do you remember hearing that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, it’s -- I think I heard that, yeah.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Is that a general grievance that you’ve heard some of your constituents and that you’ve heard some of rural Albertans and other Albertans talk about?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I believe so. Mr. Motz would probably disagree with the part that they’re not represented because he has represented us very well from that area. But I think the -- just talking -- that is a problem that anybody that has studied politics or government will agree with the fact that you’ve got a mass of population concentrated in the east and you don’t have in the west, and if you do just by votes, it’s very difficult to feel like you’re swaying anything when all of the election returns come in and by the time you’re voting, it’s already been decided. So I can understand it.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Are you aware that with respect to the protests in Ottawa it’s been reported that Albertans made up the -- essentially almost half of the individuals that were here?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I wasn’t aware of that, but it doesn’t surprise me.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALAN HONNER
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. Good morning, Commissioner. Good morning, Mayor.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Good morning.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
My name is Alan Honner. I’m a lawyer at the Democracy Fund. We share status with the JCCF and with Citizens for Freedom. Mayor, I think you gave evidence earlier today that Coutts is the only 24-hour border crossing in Alberta? Did I understand that right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And about 75 kilometres away from Coutts, there’s another border crossing at Del Bonita?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you know if the border crossing times at Del Bonita were extended during the times of the Coutts protest?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes, they were, I believe.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can you tell us a little bit more about that, the hours of the days they were extended?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Oh, I can’t give you that without it in front of me, but I don’t believe it ever went 24 hours. I know that it was increased considerably. I believe I read a number somewhere that percentage-wise, they saw crossings go up 917 percent or something like that, so it was -- it would have had to have been open a lot more, but I don’t have the numbers.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That’s fair. Thank you. I’m wondering, before the protestors left on the 15th and before the -- let me actually rephrase this. After the Emergencies Act was invoked, did you speak to any of the protestors before they left?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Not directly, no.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you told us about rumours on social media which referred to bank accounts being frozen. Were those -- were those social media accounts coming from the protestors?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And how do you know that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, okay, I’m not going to say 100 percent. Somebody could have been faking it. But there were -- there were Facebook pages called “Coutts Convoy”, “Coutts Convoy Restart” -- I’m not going to name them all. But they were obviously followers or participants of the protest by the content that was posted, by things that they said, and...
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So these -- these were social media sites where you could sign up and you could make posts regardless of whether or not you were at the protest.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So anybody could have posted those rumours on that site.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Anybody could. They are -- they were moderated sites. They would have to get past the administrator, but I don’t know -- I didn’t put them up there.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Whatever the case is, however, you’d agree with me that the reason why the protestors ultimately leave, what you call the straw that broke the camel’s back, was the discovery of the weapons and it was not the rumours of the -- about the Emergencies Act.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I think that’s correct. I saw an interview with Alex van Herk that he did the evening of the 14th. It’s on YouTube, where he explicitly said that it was the weapons. It wasn’t the Act because they’d heard about it, but they were prepared to stay until it -- you know, that’s in Ottawa, basically, is what his sympathies were.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And Alex van Herk was one of the spokespeople or one of the leading people at Coutts among the protestors.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That’s correct. He’s been charged along with Marco, so I’m not sure how much I’m supposed to talk about it, but.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We’ll move on. My friend from the Government of Canada brought up the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act. And I understand you thought that the RCMP should have used that Act against the protestors.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I did. Part of that might have been my misunderstanding of what they were doing. As I said, I wasn’t privy to the situation reports that were coming out every day until I saw them the other night. So there was stuff going on and there possibly are even charges still waiting for people over that Act. So ---
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And ---
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah, go ahead.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m sorry to interrupt. I think maybe what -- would you agree with me that the RCMP may have exercised their jurisdiction under that Act or their discretion under that Act, had the protest not ended when it did?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I think they were doing it even as -- like, I know that there were violation tickets and so on being issued and that there possibly are still charges coming. So the process maybe doesn’t move as quickly as I would like it to, but I believe they were working under that Act, yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And I just want to ask you about that Act. Is it your understanding that the Act prohibits the wilful obstruction of essential infrastructure, if that obstruction renders the infrastructure dangerous, useless, inoperative, or ineffective?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And in your view, that was happening in Coutts because of the blockade?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And if somebody commits an offence under that Act, the police can arrest that person without a warrant? Is that right?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I’m not sure about the without a warrant, but I know they can arrest them.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you would take it from me that the Act says that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sure.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
There are also fines under the Act?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And does it accord with your understanding that the fine for a first offence can be no less than $1,000 and can be as much as $10,000?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I’ve heard that, yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that a fine for a second offence or a third offence can be as high as $25,000?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Sure.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you know if any of the protestors at Coutts were driving company vehicles or were parking company vehicles?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I don’t know for sure. There might have been some owner/operators there. I didn’t see any name brand company vehicles parked there.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But some of those trucks could have been owned by corporations?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It’s possible.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it’s also, under the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, someone can be fined -- a corporation can be fined a minimum of $10,000 for an offence and a maximum of $200,000? Did you know that?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I may have seen those numbers. I don’t know. I’ll take your word for it.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Mayor Willett, do you want to add anything? We’re done the cross-examinations. I’m just going to ask for -- whether there’s any re-examination by the Commission Counsel. So I’ll let the re-examination go and then I’ll give you a chance to add anything, if you’d like.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Okay.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes. Oh. Yes, okay. I just have two brief questions for you. Just to clarify a point, when you were talking about your discussion with Mr. Evans about the arrests on the 14th, I think you kind of trailed off a bit under your breath and said something about the weapons were all fake. Something like that. is that something Mr. Evans told you?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I believe he mentioned that there was a rumour they had been planted, even at that early date. And then I know that YouTube video I saw of Mr. Van Herk, where he also said he didn’t believe that they were real, but they were going to -- that was the -- that was what was being said, so it was what happened. But yeah, to answer your question, that’s what was said.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I just wanted to confirm, that was not your own assessment of the situation?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
That was not my assessment, no.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that’s it. Do you want to add anything before you head back west?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
It’s cold out there. How long can I talk? No, the situation that happened there, there were a lot of people that said that I was against the protest. And I wanted to make it perfectly clear, I was never against the protest. You have that freedom, that right to protest anytime you want, as long as you don’t break the law and interfere with my right to travel and so on. I mean, I -- in a way, I participated in their protest, because along with the other border mayors, we communicated with the Federal Government saying, “This is not right, to treat these guys, after the two years, as if they’ve suddenly become pariahs or something.” So the biggest problem that I had, and I still have, understanding blocking that highway, was who you thought you were damaging. You were damaging your neighbours. I had stock movers who couldn’t move cattle because it was blocked. That’s a whole part of a chain. People grow their stock, they plan for a particular date to deliver it to the feedlot, so they’ve got feed for X number of days. Now that’s backed up. Now they’ve got to try and find feed. Well, gee, the feed comes from the other side of the border. They didn’t take into consideration the fact that, yes, they made a big splash, but they were hurting the very people that they figured they were helping by getting the mandates off. We’re a very agricultural area. I mentioned that I’m the chair of a regional economic development initiative. Our whole emphasis is on helping to establish that Canada trade corridor and the food corridor with all of the potatoes, and sugar beets, and pulses, and all of those products. That’s our main emphasis. And when you cut -- you stand there with your foot on my throat and say, “You’re not going to go through here anymore,” and what you’re doing is you’re actually choking the livelihood of all your friends and neighbours. And even if they sympathise with you, when they go to the grocery store and there’s no fresh produce there because it’s on the other side of the border, it’s something to consider. So that was the main thing. And when the protest turned to an illegal blockade, they lost my support. And that’s it. And I did what I did as far as the village goes because I’m responsible for those people. And I’ll try and get through without breaking down here this time, but there were people -- it was literally - - people were literally physically frozen and not able to go through that blockade. And since everything is on the other side, it was a tough situation. But we’re not here to argue about that anyway. The feeling that I got, to be truthful, is -- which I have to be, right, is that the federal action had very little to do with the resolution of the blockade there. I think it was the police action, the finding of the undesirable element. I know that happened. I have -- I've talked to neighbours who saw the actual police action that night. It wasn't a carrying in weapons and planning them. It was a raid with SWAT-type vehicles. We had a field hospital set up at the fire hall and that kind of thing. So it was a very serious -- very serious situation. So -- and one last thing. I'm very complimentary of the police. The RCMP handled themselves very well. And I'm glad it's over. It's -- and I thank you for that opportunity. I'd ---
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that's fine. We're here to get at the bottom of what happened, not only in Coutts, but across. Can I just ask you one thing following up on you're all in favour of protests, and you'd mentioned about the land that had been set up to continue protesting and it wasn't used until after the blockade was cleared.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yeah.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did I hear you correctly?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And they continued to protest there for some time you said?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Weeks. Yeah, I don't know the exact number.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if it was the same group that had blockaded that continued to protest there?
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
I believe that most of that was people who had showed up for the secondary encampment and they just moved off the road because they had no where else to go.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming. It's appreciated. Your evidence was appreciated. You're free to go back to the cold.
Jim Willett, Mayor (Coutts)
Well, thanks, I think.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to take the morning adjournment, the morning break, and come back with a new witness, so we'll take 15 minutes.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La Commission levée pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 11:40 a.m.
Upon resuming at 11:54 a.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Bonjours. Call Mario Di Tommaso to the stand, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
Mr. Di Tommaso, will you swear on a religious document, or do you wish to affirm?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I would like to swear, please.
The Registrar (POEC)
We have the Bible, the Quran or the Torah available.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
The Bible.
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out. Mario Di Tommaso. D-I T-O-M-M-A-S-O.
DSG. MARIO DI TOMMASO, Sworn
The Registrar (POEC)
Thank you.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. GABRIEL POLIQUIN
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Di Tommaso.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Good morning.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And for the record, my name is Gabriel Poliquin, senior counsel to the Commission. We just a have a few little points of business here. If we could pull up the document WTS00000041, please? While that's being brought up, you sat down with us, Mr. Di Tommaso, in September for an interview and you produced an interview summary, which I believe you and your counsel have had the opportunity to review; is that correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Are there any changes you would like to bring to the interview summary today?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we'll enter the summary into evidence. The next documents I'll refer to, I don't think it's necessary to put them up, the first one is AFF000000114 -- or 14, for the record, and the second one being ONT.IR.00000001, which is -- the first one is the affidavit that you swore advising on behalf of the province, the Ontario's institutional report, which is the second document, but that document is accurate and complete; is that correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We will enter those into evidence as well. So, Mr. Di Tommaso, you're, of course, the Deputy Solicitor General for Ontario?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Before we proceed, Commissioner ---
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
--- may I have your indulgence? I'd like to use a calendar with key dates on it for reference. It just has key dates on it, if that's permissible.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don't see a problem.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That's fine with me.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Thank you.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Indeed. We'll be discussing lots of dates and so ---
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- orienting yourself in time I think is probably advisable. So, yes, just to -- to start over, your position, of course, is Deputy Solicitor General for Ontario; correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And are you the only Deputy Solicitor General?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, sir, there's another Deputy Solicitor General in the Ministry and she is responsible for the corrections portfolio.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And only the corrections portfolio?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that was your position at the time of the events that are of interest in this Commission; correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
January/February 2022?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now just to set the table, if you could give us an understanding of the role of the Solicitor General as a government department within the Province of Ontario, the Government of Ontario.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So the Ministry of the Solicitor General led by the Solicitor General, responsible for the safety and security of Ontarians. The Minister runs both the correctional side, which looks at 25 institutions, bail, and parole. And then there’s the community safety side that has nine, or at the time had nine different pillars delivering public service and policy development with regards to the safety and security of Ontarians. So at the time I had nine divisions that reported to me directly, and the OPP was one of those nine divisions.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I was getting to that. And so as part of your responsibilities, would you describe it as your -- a responsibility of oversight on the OPP that you would have?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. But the OPP reported to the Solicitor General, in terms of policy and longer-term initiatives. But certainly the OPP reported to me on a daily basis, and that was Comm. Carrique.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And yeah, we’ll get to that in detail in a sec. And the Solicitor General’s responsibility under the Police Services Act includes, to monitor police forces to ensure that adequate and effective police services are provided at the municipal and provincial levels; you would agree with that?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, that’s under section 3 of the Police Services Act.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
That’s correct. And, of course, that extends for the whole province of Ontario; correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when we talk about responsibilities of oversight, and here I understand that there’s a difference between the Solicitor General as a government department and your responsibilities, but when we talk about oversight of the OPP, what does that include?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So with regards to oversight, I do not have the ability to direct the Commissioner in any way with regards to any policing operations, day-to-day operations, that -- and deployment. That remains the exclusive jurisdiction of the Commissioner of the OPP. Having said that, anything to do with human resources, in terms of expanding or contracting the size of the OPP; procurement; financing, that type of thing, that responsibility lies with me, and I have frequent discussions with the Commissioner on those topics.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’ll get to specific examples, of course, of this when we get down to the facts, but just to clear something up, when you say expanding the size or the -- the size of the OPP; are we talking about the size of the OPP as a whole, or the size of the OPP deployed in a specific location?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
As a whole. So, for example, when various initiatives come to the table that require additional resources province-wide to implement an initiative, I will have discussions with the OPP Commissioner on what the staffing needs are; prepare a Treasury Board submission, and hopefully with the approval of Treasury Board, grant the Commissioner the ability to expand the size of the OPP, to implement whatever initiative is on the table. So it’s province-wide.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Okay, so just to summarize, is it fair to say that the kinds of decisions that your -- are in your jurisdiction; and forgive me if I use your in a broad sense, I realize that there -- the responsibilities are the jurisdiction of the Solicitor General, and you’re in charge of implementing those responsibilities on a day-to-day basis. But the sorts of decisions that are under your jurisdiction are when human resources need to be expanded, that has an impact, of course, on the public purse, as it were. This is where you come in; is that correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And decisions that are under the jurisdiction of the Commissioner of the OPP are related to operations; is that correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Operations, deployment, discipline; yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, during the events of January and February 2022, what were your -- how were your responsibilities implemented?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So in late February -- I’m sorry; early February, I was in receipt of information from Comm. Carrique, with regards to this convoy that was coming through Ontario and on its way to Ottawa. And so in those communications, Comm. Carrique was informing me of the various steps that he was taking to mitigate the possible impact of the convoy arriving in Ontario. And at the time, I recall having conversations with Comm. Carrique that there was a plan in place in Ottawa and that he, the Commissioner, was deploying whatever resources were required by the Ottawa Police Service at the time. I had some level of information that the intention of the -- some convoy organizers was to stay longer than anticipated, but the plan that was communicated to me by Comm. Carrique was such that my understanding was that the truckers would be invited into the boundaries of the City of Ottawa, but certainly not downtown; that they would be parked away from the downtown core and then the protestors would be bused in. I was also comforted by the fact that Comm. Carrique was in contact with Chief Sloly, discussing various options, and providing the resources that Chief Sloly was requesting.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
So just following up on a point here; you were informed that the plan was to have the convoy protestors parked elsewhere out of downtown and then bused in. So when did that information come to your knowledge?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I believe that would’ve been the 27th or 28th of January.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I’m -- wasn’t looking for an exact date but, you know -- so it was before the protest ---
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
--- happened? Okay. And you were informed of that by Comm. Carrique?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know where he got that information from?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not exactly. I can infer. I suspect he got that information from -- you know, directly by speaking to Chief Sloly, I’m assuming. And then from Project Hendon reports as well.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so before the protest happened, before that first weekend, you said you were comforted that there was some sort of plan; is that fair?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, throughout this period how often were you briefed by Comm. Carrique?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On a regular basis. Throughout this period, I was receiving situational updates on a daily basis from Carrique -- Comm. Carrique, and there were daily phone calls as well.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. You had daily phone calls. And were you communicating with him by text as well, is my understanding?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’ll look at -- you took extensive notes throughout that period; correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll be looking at some of those notes and some of those texts to unpack what you were receiving during those briefings. Now, did the Solicitor General, Solicitor General Jones, participate in some of these briefings?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Not with Comm. Carrique and I, no.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. At no point?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, how often did you brief Minister Jones?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
On a regular basis.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
A regular basis being every day, or...?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So my practice was to basically copy and paste the texts that I received from Comm. Carrique, and I would forward them on to Minister Jones.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you have any phone calls with her as well?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, would you say your briefings from Comm. Carrique were the only source of information you had about what was going on in Ottawa?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Now, would it be fair to say they were your main source of information?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What were your other sources of information as to what was going on on the ground?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Mainstream media, social media, situational reports from the Office of the Provincial Security Advisor, daily reports from the Office of Emergency Management as well.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you mentioned the Provincial Security Advisor; who is that and what are their responsibilities?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that would be Assistant Deputy Minister Chris Letang, and their responsibilities are to engage in dialogue with various stakeholders on the Intelligence front, and then distill that information to me. So I knew that certainly Assistant Deputy Minister Chris Letang was in his office, was in receipt of these Hendon reports, I was not. And there was a higher-level summary of some of those reports provided to me.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And is it fair to say that you are the person in charge of informing the Solicitor General of what’s going on in the province, from a security standpoint?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And is it fair to say that it’s the Solicitor General’s responsibility to brief and inform Premier Ford?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that is -- and to your knowledge, is that Premier Ford’s main source of information, in terms of public safety in the province?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Would be Minister Jones, yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, did you have any briefings from Chief Sloly during this period?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
No, not briefings, but I did have discussions.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And we’ll get some -- to some of those discussions, but you didn’t have the same relationship with Chief Sloly as you had with Comm. Carrique?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That’s correct with Commissioner Carrique?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's correct, and that's because I don't have any jurisdiction or oversight over Chief Sloly.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Right. And my understanding is, of course, the Chief of Police of Ottawa reports to the Ottawa Police Services Board; is that right?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now -- and we'll get to more details later on, but as a general matter, if you have significant concerns with the way a Police Chief in the province managed a situation, could you pick up the phone and call that Chief of Police and let them know what your concerns are?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes, but once again, I am not the oversight body. That responsibility falls to the Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in what circumstances would you pick up the phone and let them know your concerns?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, you're asking me to speculate. If I had concerns, I would certainly be in a position to pick up the phone and call various Chiefs of Police.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I suppose let me put the question this way. So, of course, I understand that Chief of Police reports to the OPS but suppose a Police Services Board were to talk to you and say, "We have concerns about our Chief," would that be an opportunity for you to express your concerns directly to the Police Chief, or is that just not done?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So I've never had the experience where a Police Services Board has contacted me to have a discussion with their Chief of Police. I've never had that experience, and I think that would be problematic, quite frankly.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Why is that?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, the oversight, the responsibility and accountability for monitoring the performance of a Chief of Police lies exclusively with the Police Service Board of jurisdiction.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now turning to Windsor, did you have any regular contact with Windsor Police Service Chief Pat Mizuno?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I had one call with her.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now turning to some dates here and we'll start chronologically with the first weekend. Before the convoy made it to Ottawa, you already had some information that they were coming and you -- we'd established that you were comforted that there was some kind of plan to deal with the situation. Did you have any concerns for that first weekend?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not. Ottawa Police Service, quite frankly, is one of the major policing services in Ontario, if not Canada. They are led by an able leadership. They have plenty of experience with regards to protests on a regular basis. I knew that Commissioner Carrique was in regular contact with Chief Sloly and I knew that the OPP Commissioner was providing resources to mitigate any possible risks. And so that certainly gave me a sense of comfort. As well, that the plan was to keep the truckers out of the downtown core and then be bussed in. So from that perspective, from that information that Commissioner Carrique relayed to me, that gave me a sense of comfort. And so didn't have concerns over the first weekend. However, with the media with what it was, you know, and displaying all the activities over the first weekend, that concern certainly grew.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Yes, and we'll get into that first weekend in more detail. But before the weekend began, I take it your expectations would -- given the experience of the Police Service, given the leadership that your expectations were that was this going to be a passing event, a short-lived event?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I don't know what my expectations were. I -- my expectations were that Ottawa Police Service in conjunction with the OPP and with those resources would be in a position to deal with the situation. There were - - there was conflicting information as to the size and the scope of the actual protest, the number of truckers, the number of people and the length of time that they would be staying.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that information, that conflicting information was before the weekend started?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the fact that there was conflicting information, did that raise any concerns with you that the risk assessment might not be correct, or did you have any misgivings at that point?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not. From my perspective, this was a policing matter that was being dealt with by both Commissioner Carrique and Chief Sloly.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now what changed after that first weekend?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Well, what changed was that there was not an exit plan for the truckers, that the truckers were well entrenched, and there was certainly a very well communicated refusal to leave. So that first weekend, in my mind, caused me to believe that this protest had morphed into an occupation, and so that's what changed after the first weekend.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And you said that at first you were comforted by the fact that there was a plan that they would not be entrenched downtown, and once they were entrenched downtown, did that surprise you?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. Yes, it did. My understanding was that there would be a plan to bus these protesters in from the outskirts of Ottawa into the downtown area. So I was questioning the issue of, you know, how did they get downtown.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you get any answers to that question at the time?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I did not.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so, at that point, that first weekend, the protestors are entrenched downtown. What were the public safety risks in Ottawa at that point, from your perspective?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I was not aware at that point in time that there were any significant public safety risks, and when I say that, I mean in terms of Criminal Code offences, in terms of robberies, aggravated assaults, that type of thing. The impact that I saw was primarily significant harm being imposed and committed on the community. So the community sense of wellbeing and mental health, that was certainly being impacted by this protest. And but I did not hear of any significant violations of the Criminal Code in terms of violent assaults.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
And when you say you didn't hear about it, do you mean you didn't hear about it from Commissioner Carrique?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we could bring up the first text, it's ONT00005311, please? So these are texts exchanged between you and Mr. -- or Commissioner Carrique. Thomas TC is Thomas Carrique; correct?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we could just scroll down a little bit, I'm not sure if there's an answer from you, but do you recognise this text?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so if we could just start from the top, please? So in point form he reports, "Road services and heavy equipment have been utilized to maintain emergency routes. - OPS parking remaining convoy vehicles on Sir John A MacDonald Parkway. Roadway almost at capacity. - Downtown remains gridlocked."
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you ---
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Oh, sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit ---
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
I'm sorry.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
"Downtown remains gridlocked. Vehicle traffic is not feasible." If you could scroll down? And if you look at the second point, "Crowd continues to grow but remains calm. Crowds estimated to be 1,000 at Parliament Hill and another 1500-2000 within the streets. - PPS reported no major issues." And I believe it says further down that -- or that maybe the next text, but we can go to that later. Is it fair to say that this text, this -- which is a situational report, and informal, but a situational report, that the news can be characterised as being everything's under control. Is that a fair ---
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That's fair.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we could turn to the next text at ONT00005316, please?
The Clerk (POEC)
That's 5316?
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Correct. I believe that's the continuation of that text chain. Starts with, "Crowd diminished overnight but remained in good spirits." Again, "PPS/OPS reported no major issues..." And other pieces of information." Again, is it fair to say that, from your perspective, everything's under control?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’ll turn to maybe one or two more texts. The next one is ONT00005319, please. So here’s a piece of news that’s a bit more concerning, perhaps. “Protestors appear to be more aggressive and confrontational with police today compared to previous.” There are: “…several vehicles attempting to circumvent roadblocks.” If we could scroll down? And we see that: “…a convoy 50km in length may be headed to Ottawa - Convoy is unconfirmed.” I don’t know if that changes anything from your perspective of things being under control?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So what’s the date of this particular text?
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
If we could scroll up? I think it’s January 31st. Oh, we don’t have the date. I believe on the previous one it said January 31st, and this is the continuation of that text.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So yes. I am becoming a little concerned, given the fact that the protestors appear to be more aggressive and confrontational with police today compared to previous. But I also have a sense of comfort in knowing that the OPP, YRP, and OPS Public Order Units are being utilized.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
So that concern is mitigated somewhat.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it would be fair to characterize it this way, that there are issues going on in Ottawa that of course require law enforcement to intervene, but there are no issues with law enforcement at that point, from your perspective?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
That would be correct.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Now, on February 3rd, you have a call with Rob Stewart, who at the time was the Deputy Minister of Public Safety Canada. Do you recall that phone call?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
I do.
Gabriel Poliquin, Senior Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And we’ll turn to your notes for that one, just to jog your memory, if you need to. That’s ONT00005153, please. Part of it is redacted. If we could go down to -- just scroll down, please. Okay. So you have a phone call at 1300 hours, I think, with Deputy Minister Rob Stewart. He says that there are 300 commercial -- CMV. That’s commercial vehicles?
Mario Di Tommaso, DSG (ON-SolGen)
Yes. (SHORT PAUSE)
Upon recessing at 12:24 p.m.
Upon resuming at 3:02 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l'ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Good afternoon; and thank you for adjusting our schedules. That’s very accommodating. I understand a witness is willing to go ahead today out of order. It’s Mr. Freeman, I think. And counsel ready?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, Jean-Simon Schoenholz for the Commission. And as you said, the next witness is Mr. Ian Freeman.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (SHORT PAUSE)
The Registrar (POEC)
For the record, please state your full name and spell it out.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Ian Freeman; I-a-n, F-r-e-e-m-a- n.
ADM IAN FREEMAN, Sworn
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. JEAN-SIMON SCHOENHOLZ
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Hi, Mr. Freeman.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
How are you?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m good, thank you.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Good to see you again. So Mr. Freeman, you sat down with Commission Counsel, I believe last month, for an interview; you recall that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So let’s pull up WTS00000021. You’ve -- we’ve prepared a summary of that interview and you’ve had a chance to review it with your counsel?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I have.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any changes to make to the summary?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There is one change I’d like to make.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s towards the end. There’s a reference to tow trucks that were supplied or coordinated to -- I believe I says we supplied 10 to the City of Ottawa.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Or, sorry; 10 to the City ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
We can scroll down to try and find that.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Very close to the end. (SHORT PAUSE)
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
And then keep going. Keep going. Yes. So it says here in this paragraph that’s at the bottom of the page: “Mr. Freeman’s understanding is that MTO sourced some heavy tow trucks for Ottawa, and up to 10 tow trucks for Windsor.” (As read) It’s actually 10 for Ottawa. For Windsor we provided a name, a contact name for a tow truck to the OPP, but I don’t believe they used that tow truck operator.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Great, thank you. Any other changes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Wonderful. So I’ll have that entered into evidence. So Mr. Freeman, could you start by telling us your current position?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Currently, I’m the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Corporate Services Division at the Ministry of Transportation, which is also the Chief Administrative Officer.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that wasn’t your position during the events of January and February ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s correct. At the time I was the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Policy and Planning Division at MTO.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us briefly what your responsibilities are -- were at the time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. So as Assistant Deputy Minister in Policy and Planning, I was responsible for developing long-term transportation plans, developing transportation policies. We had a unit that was responsible for intergovernmental relations, as well as other policy coordination-type activities.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what generally is the MTO’s mandate?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, MTO’s mandate is to provide safety for the transportation network to do operating of the provincial highway system, to provide long-term transportation planning for Ontario’s transportation system, ad, you know, other safety and operational activities related to the transportation system.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And your role within that is the lead on policy development.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And who do you report to?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I report to the Deputy Minister of Transportation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And who is the Deputy Minister at the time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was Deputy Minister Laurie Leblanc at the start. About halfway through the protest period, in mid-February, we had a new -- the Deputy Minister retired, and we had a new Deputy Minister, Doug Jones. There was a very brief period where an associate took over for a few days.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how many other Assistant Deputy Ministers are there?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There are six other Assistant Deputy Ministers.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you regularly have direct contact with the Minister of Transport?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not daily but regular. Probably weekly, sometimes less or more, depending on, you know, the circumstance and what’s happening.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what kind of contact would you have had with her during the events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
During the events, we were -- we had occasional briefings with her to give her updates on what was happening operationally and the support that the Ministry was providing, as well as discussions on what else could the Ministry do from a -- you know, a regulatory or policy perspective.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what role did the Minister have, then -- have in responding to these events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that the Minister had a direct role in responding to the events. The government’s response of -- Government of Ontario’s response was being coordinated through the Solicitor -- Ministry of the Solicitor General. So she would have certainly had a role in terms of the mandate that I spoke to at the beginning, that she would exercise that, but I don’t think she had a specific role in regards to these protests.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thanks. Can you tell us generally what Acts and Regulations MTO is responsible for enforcing?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The main Act would be the Highway Traffic Act. There’s -- I think there’s quite a few other Acts that we also enforce or have responsibility for, but our key Act is the Highway Traffic Act.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And am I correct that both police as well as MTO officers can enforce the provisions of the Highway Traffic Act?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct. I don’t know if our enforcement officers enforce all aspects of the Highway Traffic Act. I think there’s certain elements of that that they do, among -- among other legislation as well.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So in some cases, MTO officers could enforce independently; in others, they would require enforcement by police?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'd like to go to ONT00000447. So this is a email dated January 21st from Jessica Barton, who I understand is at the MTO. And if we go to the second paragraph, it says, "The convoy is expected to start in some areas of Ontario on January 25th, ending travel to Ottawa January 29th at noon. Primarily, it will be bobtail trucks but may also include four-wheel vehicles and trailers as well. Currently, there's no estimated number of trucks; however, it is expected to be in the thousands into Ottawa." (As read) Did you receive this briefing? Yeah, if you go up, you can see the recipient list ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I wouldn't be part of that distribution list.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
You weren't a part of that. Was this information that was generally available to you at this time on the 21st?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. No, this would be -- so this is our enforcement branch that this is being referred to, so our Transportation Enforcement Branch. I wouldn't have any dealings with them that ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- or for this issue at this time.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so can you maybe just tell us who the ADM for that branch would -- or was at the time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That would have been the ADM of our Transportation Safety Division, which was Shelley Unterlander.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Can you tell us, do you have information on what MTO did at this time upon receiving this type of information in anticipation of the events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding is the Transportation Safety Division developed an operational plan, which would be normal course of action for them to do, which would speak to what the officers -- you know, who -- like, what's the flow of information, what their anticipated role might be, kind of rules of engagements for officers. I would also imagine, although I don't have direct knowledge of it, that our Operations Division would also connect with police through likely the OPP to see if there was any sort of information that might be needed from Highway Operation, so, for example, changeable message signs, any support that might be needed for police. But I don't have specific knowledge as to what activities they took at this time.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
But those would typically be the types of actions that would happen for an event such as this.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And if we can go to ONT00005150, I just want you to confirm, I believe this is a copy of that plan that you just mentioned that was developed. Is that the plan you mentioned?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, this would be it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And again, the purpose of that plan was to kind of anticipate what type of actions MTO officers would be required to take as part of this event?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know what was anticipated at that time for possible actions they would take?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, from my review of the document previously, they were expecting a peaceful protest. So and they would not be directly engaging with the protest, but that they would, you know, be available if police needed assistance with any sort of expertise around commercial truck inspections and those types of -- that type of work.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So have you had a chance to review Ontario's institutional report ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- that's been provided?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes. So we don't necessarily need to pull that up, but it states that on February 4th, MTO officers began supporting the OPP with issues arising from a planned protest at Queen's Park in Toronto. Do you recall that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I guess what support was being provided?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding was there wasn't any direct support that was needed. The officers were patrolling the GTA highways to be visible, but they weren't directly engaging in the protest activities.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And would engagement have been only subject to a request by OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that request didn't come; I take it?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's my understanding.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And the request for that support for that visibility in Toronto around that time, that would have been on OPP's request?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know whether there was any requests by either OPP or OPS for a similar kind of presence in Ottawa ahead of the arrival of the convoy in Ottawa?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't -- I'm not aware of a request for that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
How many -- just to provide us with some context, how many MTO officers are there in the province?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
There's approximately 150.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I take it that those -- the MTO is able to deploy those to different areas as necessary?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It can be done. It's not typical. Typical, they will operate out of specific regions and locations, but if needed, they can be.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know if that was done in the present case, redeployment?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's my understanding is that officers were redeployed to Ottawa at the request of the OPP, you know, towards the back end of the protest.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. In the institutional report, it states that on February 4th there was a meeting between the MTO, Transport Canada and others to discuss certain measures that might be available. If we can pull up ONT00002759? And if we can just go down to the next email? Yes. So this is an email that you sent, I understand, with a summary of the calls. I understand there was a first call on the 4th and then a follow-up on the 5th; is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And this is your summary of those calls?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The one that's showing here is my summary of the February 5th call.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm not sure if further down it summarises the 4th.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let's -- I want to touch on a couple points in this ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- email. So here at the point that starts by number one, it says -- well, I guess I'll start just above that. "They", they being Transport Canada; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
"...are looking for the following." And then you ask for a response to this. You say point one, "Can we provide the impacts of any charges that could be laid to truck drivers/operators, for example, types of charges that lead to CVOR points, what are potential impacts of that? Insurance, sanctions, contracts. Are there other potential non-CVOR impacts?" (As read) So what was the inquiry here from Transport Canada? What were they looking for?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Transport Canada was interested in understanding if police laid charges, or even if there was the threat of laying charges, what would be the impact to commercial vehicle operators in Ottawa who were protesting. And just to be clear, CVOR stands for commercial vehicle operator registration. It's the licensing regime for commercial vehicle operators in Ontario. So they were interested in understanding, you know, what type of highway traffic offences, as an example, that might lead to sanctioning of a carrier.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you anticipate my question that defining CVOR. So that’s very good. Did MTO make those inquiries?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And what generally -- -- can you explain to us what the response to this point would have been?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well there’s -- I mean, there’s all sorts of offences. There’s a long list of offences that can lead to point. It could be mechanical fitness, it could be, for example, even stopping on a roadway. Any number of driving offences could lead to CVOR points. So there’s -- you know, quite a few of the Highway Traffic Act offences would lead to CVOR points.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We’ll talk a bit more about that later, ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- but that’s a good introduction. Thank you. It continues at point two: “Some jurisdictions have legislation in place that protects critical infrastructure services from occupation, disruption with significant fines, et cetera. Does Ontario have anything not that I’m aware of?” (As read) And can you maybe explain what that was about and what the response was?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Transport Canada raised that -- I can’t remember if it was New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, but one of the Atlantic provinces had -- I don’t know if it was under emergency orders or what, but they had legislation in place that where there was similar situations that were impacting critical infrastructure, so not related to safety, but related to, you know, protests or civil unrest, that there were substantial financial penalties included in their legislation. So we were - - Transport Canada was interested if anything existed in Ontario. And I wasn’t aware of anything, and I don’t believe we found anything that existed in Ontario that would be helpful.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. It continues at point three: “Tow operators. Are there any incentives we might recommend to get them to help if needed or penalties if they don’t?” (As read) And then you say: “This is a tough one, as I’m not sure we have any direct contracts with them.” (As read) Et cetera, et cetera. So can you explain again what the nature of the request was here and what the response was?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, I think simply put, Transport Canada was just wanting to know, should police need heavy tow trucks, would MTO be -- have direct contracts with tow operators that would be able to be deployed in the City of Ottawa? And so my comment there was that I didn’t believe that we did have contracts with tow operators that would be applicable inside municipalities. But I was asking the question for them to find out.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And did -- and what did you find out on that point?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did not.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Let’s go to ONT00000311. While we’re pulling that up, we’ve heard from the City of Ottawa that they asked the Deputy Minister of transpiration whether there was anything that could be done in regards to trucker’s insurance or CVORs, but that the Province wasn’t prepared to do anything in that respect. So I guess my question is, is that accurate? You know, what’s your response to that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, there’s several documents, I think, in the record that speak to questions around this. So maybe if I could just try and explain the CVOR?
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
How it works? And I think the Deputy speaks to it a little bit here. But the way that the CVOR regulation works is it’s a -- it’s a process by which there’s escalating penalties and by which a safety record is built over time that allows the Deputy Registrar to take action. So what I mean by that is based on an operator’s safety record, so based on, you know, the inspections that they have, the convictions that they have, or on road events, so collisions, they accumulate points. And as they accumulate points on their record, the Province takes escalating sanctions towards them. So it starts with warning letters, it might involve an interview to talk to them about their safety practices, and then it would move to perhaps suspensions or other kind of actions to try and redirect them, perhaps a safety audit, up to eventually it could include a cancellation. At the time that we issue a cancellation, or throughout this process, they’re given written notice that this has happened, they’re -- at the time of cancellation, and then they are allowed to seek a hearing or a response in writing to the Deputy Registrar. There’s -- based on that, there’s also an appeals process that they’re allowed to go through as well. So I think that was the challenge that we were trying to communicate to Transport Canada and the City of Ottawa at the time was that the Highway Traffic Act itself and the CVOR is built around this process or these procedures that are well understood by the Courts, well understood by industry, and to protect the legitimacy of it, we couldn’t try and use that process to do something different. And that was the challenge that we were trying to articulate, until the emergency orders were put in place, where it was a different regime. And I’m sure we’ll get into that later.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. That’s helpful. And we will get to that. So if we can go -- these are minutes taken from, or a summary of a call between the City, the Federal Government, the Provincial Government, on February 6th. And if we can go to page 6? My understanding is you weren’t present at this call; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Your Deputy Minister was present?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can go down? Down, down, down. So right there. So here we have a few points, a summary of what was said by the Deputy Minister; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And here, first it says: “On tow trucks, they will be working with the private sector […] to see what[‘s] available and can be provided.” Are you aware of what efforts MTO made to work with the private sector to obtain tow trucks at that time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We started investigating this right away and had great difficulty finding tow truck operators that were willing to help. We looked at -- we do have some arrangements with tow truck operators. Not in municipal, but on highways, certain highways, as well as in our truck inspection stations, some of them. so we started contacting them, as well as any other providers we spoke to, some of their, you know, stakeholder representatives that represent the tow truck industry and had very little luck. Eventually we were able to find a few that would agree to help out, but my understanding was, and I wasn’t directly involved in this, but my understanding from those that were, that it was a very difficult process to try and find tow truck operators that would be willing to help.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And were you aware of what was making that so difficult?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was the threat of -- to their livelihoods, to their business, and to their drivers. They had indicated to us that, you know, there was a lot of social media that was obviously -- and in the news about this. So I think they were very worried that, you know, these are also their customers, that if they participated in this, they wouldn’t have any business. But I even know when some names did leak out, they were inundated with calls and threats. And I believe some backed out as a result of that as well.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And in the end, I think you've already said in your correction to your witness statement, MTO was able to find 10 tow trucks that were deployed to Ottawa?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how were those found?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Just through calls through contacts that were made by -- in our Operations Division. They were calling, you know, late into the nights to try and find someone, and eventually a small number, one or two, said yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And would those have been made available to the OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct. We didn't actually contract with them directly, they were just -- we just helped to facilitate for the purposes of the OPP.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know if the powers available under the Emergencies Act were used to secure those 10 tow trucks?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding from the area that was working with them, they weren't used directly, they weren't forced to do it, but the indemnification that came in the federal Emergency Order was helpful because they were worried about damage to their vehicles. I was told they couldn't get insurance. So I don't know if this tipped the scales or not, I wasn't part of those discussions and when they made their decisions, but I understand that insurance was an issue for them and that this was helpful.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Second point says: "From an enforcement perspective, the [MTO] is providing assistance where requested. However...enforcement resources are limited." Can you explain what that referred to and what way were they limited?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think just to the point of there is about 150 officers spread around the entire province doing -- also providing -- doing their daily safety mandate. So that's a limited number compared to I think the numbers that were being talked about for police, and certainly small compared to the size of the police forces across the province.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Was there ever a shortage of MTO officers being requested to be deployed in this event, or was it more so just getting them to where they needed to be?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't think -- to my knowledge, there was never a request for resources that we weren't able to meet. This was -- you know, this was early in the dialogue that was happening, where the Ministry of Transportation was brought in. So I think she was more making a point that, you know, it's a -- I mean, it's much larger than some small municipal police forces, but it's much smaller than, you know, the OPP has, for example, that we just don't have a large pool of resources to direct to help.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
The third point here: "In response to the point about using licensing and sanctioning as a tool, she..." Being Deputy Minister LeBlanc: "...noted that demerit point is a long- term strategy that will not help with immediacy of the situation. It will not impact the actions of many in the short-term." Can you -- I think maybe you've already touched on this a little bit, but could you maybe explain this short- term, long-term dilemma?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe what she's referring to here is the point that I was making when I described the CVOR regime, where -- or even licensing, for example, where points are accumulated on a driver record or a carrier record based on, you know, convictions and things that actually happen, and that takes time. You know -- so for that to happen, if there was a desire to see us jump to, for example, as some have indicated, just start to cancel CVORs, I think she was trying to make the point that that's not how we deploy that legislation, it's done through the process that I outlined before, which takes actually quite a bit of time to move through the system.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so your evidence, then, is that there was no mechanism to apply that kind of penalty in the short-term?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Last point: "In addition, it seems that many of the trucks were from outside the province and it adds a layer of complexity to the enforcement of the licensing regime." Can you explain what that additional complexity is when it comes to out of province vehicles?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The trucking industry is regulated provincially across the country. So if you're a trucking company that home base is in Alberta, for example, the Province of Alberta regulates that trucking company, Ontario does not. So I think she was simply referring to that, that, you know, even notwithstanding the time that it would take to sanction an Ontario carrier, we don't actually regulate out of province carriers. So I think she was just trying to speak to that, that each jurisdiction regulates those trucking companies in their home province.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I think my understanding from your interview summary is that the -- while the convictions would have some inter-jurisdictional impact, Ontario had no way of imposing penalties on outside of the province vehicles; is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I just want to put to you in relation to this call, there was testimony from Mr. Steve Kanellakos, the City of Ottawa's City Manager. He recalled that during this call the issue was raised of what tools were available from MTO's perspective, and he recalled that Ms. LeBlanc seemed to be a little miffed that she got put on the spot and basically said, "I'll get back to you, I'll look into it", and never did. So I'm just wondering if you heard about that interaction if you have any response to that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I didn't.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Are you aware of any more detailed response on kind of the points you've outlined to me being provided to the City of Ottawa at any point outside of this call?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I am not aware of direct conversations with the City of Ottawa. Most of our interactions were done through -- the interactions that I was involved in were through Transport Canada.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So let's pull up SSM.CAN.00000363. So my understanding from the Institutional Report is that Deputy Minister LeBlanc attended a FTP, Federal Provincial Territorial, meeting with federal counterparts to discuss transportation enforcement responses to the protests. So that would have been on the 7th. And if we go down, these are the notes from that call. You're familiar with those?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, I have seen these.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know what the purpose of this meeting was?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
On Monday, I think. I don't recall the specific purpose of this meeting, but I do know, because there were several meetings that were happening on Monday, and at that point there was a desire to try and understand the options that could be deployed by transportation ministries and getting situational updates based on what was happening in each jurisdiction. I suspect that's what the discussion was here, but I would need to just look at the notes again.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Well, here we can start at the top here. It says: "TC Proposal: Maximum enforcement strategy." You're familiar with that strategy that was put forward by Transport Canada?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm familiar -- not necessarily that term of maximum enforcement strategy. I am familiar with a document that they created called an enforcement strategy.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So let's go down to page 2. And it says here, under Ontario, on the second point: "Collective enforcement rather than maximum enforcement." I understand that to be Ontario's response to the -- to Transport Canada's proposal. Are you able to explain what was being proposed as a change to the fed's proposal?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't -- I have -- I've read this, and I -- I'm sorry, I don't know what's intended by that statement. And I'm wondering, can you just -- can you go back up to -- I'm wondering if this was -- and just -– yeah like right to the top, I’m just wondering if it shows the -- oh, no, it doesn’t the attendees. Sorry. I’m just not sure if this was the call that Deputy Minister Leblanc was on or whether it was Deputy Di Tommaso that might have also been on this because I think joint PSTC might have been -- might have been Transportation’s and Solicitor-General, so it might like -- because a statement like that around enforcement doesn’t sound like something that would have come from the Ministry of Transportation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
That’s helpful. So we can ask him, then. From our interviews with Transport Canada, they seem to have understood that Ontario was concerned about being perceived to be directing law enforcement agencies in how they were carrying out their functions. Would you agree with that characterization?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, again, that would be the Solicitor-General, and I would say, you know, I think there would be a general sentiment that -- in the Ontario government that they do not direct police forces.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And that was part of what -- that was part of what guided MTO’s response.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, not quite because MTO would -- MTO certainly would not direct police, like, and -- but our role in this was to support police. So I would say that was more of our guiding principle rather than that we don’t direct them, is it’s a further -- we’re further removed from that in these types of events where there’s a protest or, you know, it’s a public order issue. Police lead the response, and Ministry of Transportation is there only to assist. I would say that would be our more fundamental principle as how we would respond in all cases here.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so would you -- would you agree, then, that in addition to the various practical concerns around the actual enforcement powers that were available, MTO was also concerned about only stepping in in assistance to police and upon their request? Is that fair to say?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think so. And maybe I would add to that, too. We would want to be careful not to -- not to interfere with what was a police-led response. What I mean by that is, you know, police would be -- as I’m sure -- I know the Commission has heard, developing plans, developing communication strategies, all of these things, we would not want to as -- in our role as just playing an assisting role, somehow inadvertently create a problem for what police were planning to do, so I would say, you know, the principle was we were there to assist, but we were also, you know, more importantly, not there to not somehow interfere with what they were doing as well.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If we could go to ONT00000095. So this an email from you with some key takeaways from a meeting earlier on February 8th with representatives from Transport Canada. So if we can go to page 2. Here we go. So maybe just go up first to the top of that email. So this an email from yourself to the Deputy Minister, and you’re briefing her on the key points from that call; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can go back down past the redactions there. So it says, and I think this may go to what we were just talking about: “Sol-Gen is the Ontario lead for anything to do with enforcement of legal regulatory authority. Communications requests should go through them to ensure consistency and nothing is taken out of context.” (As read) Is that essentially reflective of what you’ve just told me?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It is. And you know, in reading this, I would probably position it a little bit differently in that police are the lead for anything to do with enforcement. Sol-Gen was the, you know, coordinating body from an Ontario government perspective. I think, you know, in writing that out I probably used a -- I just want to kind of clarify that because I don’t think Sol-Gen was the lead for enforcement. I think that was -- that was police. But from an Ontario government response, Sol- Gen was coordinating that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so is your understanding that enforcement issues, enforcement requests would come through OPP through to Sol-Gen and then if MTO was needed, those requests would be channelled through Sol-Gen to the MTO?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Actually, no. So if there was requests from police, they would go directly to MTO, either our Operations Division to support with, you know, signage and those types of things, or to our Transportation Enforcement branch for assistance there. Sol-Gen would more be a coordinating body from a government response to this. So I think what we were trying to position here is that when the federal government was reaching out to Ontario Ministries, so Ministry of Transportation, we really wanted to try and funnel the response through Sol-Gen, who were at, you know, meetings and they were more involved than Ministry of Transportation was. So we didn’t want to be sending up information that perhaps would be, you know, different than what the policing strategy or the enforcement strategy might be from Sol- Gen, who are having more direct conversations with the police.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And would I be right to say that this isn’t necessarily the usual approach for MTO that it would apply in every circumstance? It’s unique to the type of activity in this case that would be police led?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sorry. Can you just -- when you mean “usual activities”, can you ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So in the normal course, MTO would be able to enforce without coordination with police.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Oh, yes. Yes. If it’s a transportation safety initiative, so you know, our Transportation Enforcement Officers have a mandate and they deploy that mandate regularly. It does not involve policing, for example. They don’t have the powers to arrest or they -- certainly if -- I would say if it was, you know, any protest, whether it was of this magnitude or even a -- you know, a small protest, police would lead the response to that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Moving to the second point, in Ontario, licence demerits and operator registration points are affected by convictions, not charges. That point is just a reiteration of the kind of - - the fact that this is a long-term process; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right. I think the only thing we were just clarifying there is that it -- the point on convictions, not charges, so to -- for something to affect an operator’s record, it has to be a conviction, not simply a charge.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Obviously. And a conviction taking some time, as it has to work through the Court system.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And the final point: “MTO Enforcement is ready to assist with commercial vehicle enforcement that supports its road safety mandate at the request of police.” (As read) And so going to maybe your earlier point, why was this different that MTO would only act at the request of police? Is it because it was a public order issue?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And had there been any requests from police for assistance at this point? Again, we’re ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Just remind me of the date of this.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
February 8th.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Actually, I believe on February the 8th is when -- so yes, there had been requests of police, so -- the weekend before where there was the protest in Toronto where we were asked to kind of patrol, so there was those requests. And I believe it was on February the 8th that the OPP asked that Transportation Enforcement Officers be under their command for the purposes of the response.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so essentially -- and was that -- that second response, that was complied with, I guess, by MTO?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We can go to ONT00000458. So this is an email from Param Patel. Who is he?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Param is the Director of the MTO Enforcement Program.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We can go down. Down, down, down. Okay. So he says, "I just got off a call with OPP Chief Superintendent Rohan Thompson. There will be a request coming through Sol Gen [I guess] to request a couple of things. Heavy toe and information and support." (As read) I think we've already talked about ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- that. And then it says, "MTO Enforcement support. MTO Enforcement officers would be put under the incident command of the OPP to assist with ongoing protests across the province." (As read) That's the request you were just referring to?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so, effectively, MTO officers would be available to the OPP but they would only act at their request; is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that request, as you already said, was approved by MTO?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
If we can go to ONT00000460? This is another email from Mr. Patel. We can just go down. Down a bit more. Down, down, down. Sorry, if we can go up? Up. Okay. So it's this paragraph under the bold. "The role that MTO officers would do can include patrolling highways as a deterrent, provide intelligence on highways, be a subject matter expert on CMVs..." (As read) What are CMVs?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Commercial motor vehicles.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. "...for the OPP, provide CMV expertise to municipal police services and OPP, CVSA inspections..." (As read) What are CVSA inspections?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It's Commercial Vehicle Safety Association, I believe. These are basically -- that's an organising body, but it's basically what he's referring to there is doing mechanical inspections of ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- commercial vehicles.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
"...dangerous goods support and providing other support as required. The work will be coordinated through OPP Emergency Operations Centre and MTO Enforcement officers will be fully embraced within the OPP incident command for deployment and dispatch." (As read) So that's consistent with what you just told me, that they would be integrated within the OPP. And is the list I just went through there in that first sentence, is that consistent with your understanding of what they would be doing in support of the OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can just go up to the top of this email, just right up to the top? So are you aware of what was the purpose of this email?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know who he's sending to. It looks -- I'm assuming he's sending it to all of -- the entire MTO Enforcement officer group. So I think he's -- I think it's information sharing, so knowing that this is what's happening, and to make sure officers are aware of what their responsibilities are.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So it's effectively to brief officers on what the agreement is ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- between OPP and MTO?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, and I know they ultimately, you know, updated the operational plans, et cetera, to accommodate this, but I suspect this was the, you know, having just been informed and agreed to that's what they were doing, they were making sure officers were aware as quick as possible.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Let's go to ONT00000461. We can scroll down. I think there's a portion in bold. This is -- sorry, before we go down, so this is an enforcement directive. So is this a directive that would have been issued to all enforcement officers?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. On -- so this is February 9th. If we can go down, there's a section in bold there. It says there, "Officers are not to engage in enforcement activities with individuals or vehicles participating with the Convoy for Freedom or related protest activities." (As read) What specifically was this meant to address?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
This is basically making sure that officers understand that they're there in a supporting role for police based on that -- it's probably outlined in here as well, but similar to what you would have saw in the exhibit we just had, which was speaking to their role of helping with inspections, providing expertise, that type of role versus, you know, making sure that they know they're not out there handing out tickets or doing those types of things.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was this direction coming on request to the OPP, or was this a decision from MTO not to have officers conduct enforcement themselves?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know where it came from, but it would be -- it rings true as to the way that these type of -- the approach and -- to this type of activity is -- when there's a police-led initiative, police are there to do enforcement, we provide support and expertise within our mandate. But again, our officers are not -- they're not armed. They're not -- they don't -- you know, they don't have firearms and things like that, so they would not provide that type of support.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. So I'd like to go to ONT0000156. This is a February 8th letter from Deputy Minister Leblanc to Deputy Minister Michael Keenan of Transport Canada. You're familiar with this letter; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Were you involved in discussions around the drafting of this letter?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you maybe explain what the purpose generally of this letter was? What was it in response to?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think it was twofold. There had been a lot of discussions that we had had back and forth between the Ministry of Transportation and Transport Canada, where we had committed to following up, and we wanted to make sure that our position was formally responded to. But I also think, you know, there was many discussions where the federal government or municipalities had made suggestions that, you know, why don't you just cancel COVR, as an example? Like, you know, why can't you use these types of powers? And we were trying to just make it clear that this -- you know, we've looked into this and it's not possible, so we just wanted to make sure we went on record by describing what we felt we could and couldn't do, so that there was no kind of ambiguity to it. And the other piece was just to make sure the roles and responsibilities within the Ontario government was made clear that Sol Gen, the Solicitor General's, the Ministry of Solicitor General was the coordinating Ministry body and MTO was there to assist.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we could go to the third paragraph in this letter? It says, starting at the second sentence, "Ministry of Transportation stands ready to provide support as needed to law enforcement in areas where the Ministry is well placed to help, and we have been working closely with the Ministry of the Solicitor General including the OPP to assist where possible. This includes providing traffic management support such as messaging signs and barriers to support traffic rerouting caused by the protests and rigorously enforcing any convictions resulting from the protests. It also includes providing commercial vehicle enforcement support in ways that support the Ministry’s road safety mandate at the request of police. Ontario’s response is being coordinated through the Ministry of the Solicitor General and all requests should be directed through them.” (As read) So was the Federal Government to understand then that all requests for MTO enforcement assistance were to come through police and to be communicated through the Solicitor General’s Office?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Requests from the Federal Government to the Ontario Government, yeah, we were requesting that that go through the Solicitor General.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The Ministry of the Solicitor General, sorry. Not the Solicitor General.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And so was the response here effectively trying -- communicating to the Federal Government that they were asking MTO to go beyond their enforcement capabilities?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I don’t think that was the intent, so much as, you know, in this part of the week, you know, the first half of the week of, you know, started on, I guess, you know, from the 4th to the 8th or 9th when this was sent, there was a lot of reach out between different parties trying to get their arms around what’s possible, what’s not possible. And I think in Ontario, we were trying to put some order to our response so that we could be coordinated and, you know, most effectively support the operations. So I don’t think it was meant to be anything more than that, was to just try and put in -- chain of command is probably not the right language, but, you know, a proper communication flow so that we could make sure that, as an Ontario Government, we were all working together to support as best as possible. But it wasn’t to suggest that anybody was overreaching or -- and it certainly wasn’t to try to be unhelpful in any way. It was trying to help us be organized in our response.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And this last paragraph here on page 1: “However, I want to clarify some potential misunderstanding on the applicability of drivers’ licenses and commercial vehicles operator permissions in a protest situation.” (As read) I won’t read the full paragraph, but essentially was the clarification here along the lines of what you’ve already provided on CVORs?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Was the Federal Government asking MTO to apply sanctions under that regime, like, without convictions?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The -- and I don’t know if it was ever a direct ask, but it was certainly questions or comments that suggested we should be using all powers within our toolkit, including cancellations of CVORs. I don’t think they were suggesting that, like, you know, go against what is allowed by the Highway Traffic Act, or going against procedures, but they also didn’t understand all of the procedures. So I think it was them trying to understand and in a very, you know, narrow review of the legislation, it could be interpreted that you could just do that. And we were trying to explain that the application of the legislation doesn’t practically do that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Well we’ll see later that there were warning letters issued, after the Provincial State of Emergency was declared, of potential CVOR consequences under that law. Could that have been done prior to the invocation of the provincial emergency? To send warning letters about known potential violations?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think -- technically anything is -- you could send a warning letter to do something like that. We were never asked by police to do it and it was a police-led response. So I would clarify that first. But I would also say I think we would be of the opinion that, you know, sending warning letters for something that we know we wouldn’t deploy wouldn’t be the right thing to do.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And was that type of measure ever contemplated or discussed, as far as you know?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Certainly there was lots of discussions about what we could and couldn’t do, including, you know, notifying commercial vehicle operators that their trucks were there. Like, we looked at all sorts of different things that could be considered. I don’t know whether this was specifically discussed.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We could go to PB.CAN.00000810? And we’ll go to page 4 once you open that up. So our understanding is that OPS had identified potential violations of the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act. Go down to page 4 and down to that background section, please. And you’ll see here in this third paragraph: “The Ottawa Police are seeking the assistance of TDG [which I understand to be Transportation of Dangerous Goods] inspectors to participate in joint police and MTO operations to provide subject matter expertise to confirm violations under the Act and Regulations.” (As read) Are you aware of these joint operations?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
No. And so does MTO play a role in enforcing this Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We do. Yeah, our -- the Transportation Enforcement Officers are trained in Transportation of Dangerous Goods legislation.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And are you aware whether MTO officers engaged any enforcement of that Act during these events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not aware. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I’m just not specifically aware of whether or not the officers -- that was part of their mandate that was given, if asked by police to do that. I do not know if they actually did it.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If we could go to ONT00000111? So this is a February 9th -- I think it’s an email. If we could go down? Right. So my understanding is in this email chain, there was a question of whether OPP would be collecting CVOR information in Windsor. And MTO was advised that most vehicles in Windsor were not commercial vehicles. Was that your understanding?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And that was different than in Ottawa, I take it?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I actually don’t know how many vehicles there were in Ottawa and whether most or -- there were certainly a large number of commercial vehicles in Ottawa. That we know. But in terms of whether it was most, I actually don’t know.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know whether MTO received CVOR information on vehicles in Ottawa?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did, but only at the time when we were asked to exercise suspensions as part of the emergency orders.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. At the tail end ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- of the protests? And is that something that was done on request of police?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
MTO was provided with that information?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If we can go to SSM.CAN.00000374? We’ll go to page 3. So these are internal emails at Transport Canada on February 10th. I just want to get your comments on their content. Oh, to where it starts -- sorry, page 3 and the paragraph that starts with “Third”. Okay. So it says -- so it appears here that the Federal Government understood that the MTO was suggesting that the Federal Government had authority to manage international crossings. And then it says: "...but this purposefully confuses authorities between governments." Was the MTO of the view that the Federal Government had the authority or that Transport Canada, maybe more specifically, could act on its own to enforce with respect to the Windsor blockade because of authority on international crossings?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in the discussions that I was part of. That -- there may have been discussions around where the authority lies, specifically of -- with bridges, but you know, at an Operational level we were supporting the Windsor Police and the Ontario Provincial Police. So you know, it wasn't part of the discussions I was having as to who had the authority.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we go to this paragraph: "The Bridges and Tunnels Act has some authorities but they do not bring any authorities to bear on the blockade..." And then it talks about how the protest here is not on the bridge itself, but is on the road in front of the bridge. Do -- are -- would you agree that as the blockade was not on the bridge itself, the -- Transport Canada did not have enforcement authority?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm -- so not -- I'm not an expert in that, but that would be my sense, is that -- and that seemed to be the way it was playing out, is that Windsor Police were leading the response to this with the help of the OPP, and perhaps RCMP. I'm not sure whether they were involved or not because we weren't directly involved in the police Operations, but -- I mean, that's consistent with my understanding from a layman's point of view is -- of what seemed to be happening.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it from you're saying, then, that you're not aware of the Provincial Government purposefully confusing authorities between governments?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. It continues... If we go down. Paragraph starting -- yeah: "We can further suggest quietly to Ontario truly wants us to invoke federal authority to manage this crisis they need to declare an emergency they cannot manage so we can thereby invoke the federal Emergencies Act to manage the blockades. IE turn their request to use federal authority into a poison pill based on the fundamental reality of legal authorities." So it seemed that federal officials are suggesting that Ontario is trying to force the federal government to use its own authorities. Are you aware of any authority other than the Emergencies Act that would've been available to Transport Canada to respond to the blockade in Windsor?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I'm not, and -- like this type of kind of discussion that was happening I wasn't part of.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. February 11th in the Institutional Report it states that: "The City of Ottawa requested MTO inspectors to perform inspection and enforcement duties in and around Ottawa and that MTO approved that request and provided officers." (As read) I understand from one of the documents that they -- the City was requesting four MTO officers. You recall that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sorry, is there a document that ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. We can go to ONT00000463, and we'll go to the third page. If we can go down. Oh, sorry, right at the top there, "Ottawa City requesting... ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Oh, yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- ...our 4 officers."
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm aware of this.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall that request?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And it says here: "...they would like visible enforcement...fly the flag and show of force on the roads as their enforcement capacities have been limited and they want to instill public confidence. Essentially a mini-blitz." And so was the request essentially just to be a show of force in the City of Ottawa but not necessarily one that would lead to actual enforcement?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So my understanding of this one was it wasn't directly related to the convoy protesters, it was -- we were asked to provide commercial motor vehicle enforcement, a blitz, that was not addressing the people participating in the protest, but rather, focussing on other commercial motor vehicles that were around. Because I think from reading this, it's -- and I don't know the City of Ottawa's motivations specifically, but from reading this was that they were -- wanted to make sure that the public knew we were also doing regular truck inspections as well. And my understanding is they did do some additional truck inspections on that weekend.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. We heard from the City of Ottawa General Manager of Emergency Services, Kim Ayotte, in his witness statement that the City had enquired with MTO about towing capacity and that he understood that MTO was unable to assist. I take it from the evidence you have provided today that ultimately MTO was able to assist but that wasn't provided directly to the City. Is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's correct. That was provided to the OPP.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
The Mayor of Ottawa testified that there were some discussions between the City and MTO regarding the potential of leveraging insurance to end the protests, and that the MTO was reluctant to explore this idea further. Can you maybe explain the specific issue of insurance?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't have much to offer on that, unfortunately. MTO doesn't regulate insurance. That's -- I believe it's the Ministry of Finance that does that. I don't believe we had, to our knowledge or to my knowledge, certainly, that there was any powers that the Ministry of Transportation has or even perhaps the Province to do anything specific with insurance. Certainly not the Ministry and not to my knowledge.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Might penalties and demerit points under the CVR, might those have an impact on insurance?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Yes, so -- yeah, for sure. So if you -- you know, as you collect demerit points on your licence your insurance often goes up, and the same is with the CVOR Program, that, you know, over time as you have a -- if you have a worse safety record you may have insurance impacts from that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So what you're saying is -- here is that the MTO could not have imposed some kind of suspension on insurance, or something like that, of its own ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- enforcement power?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. We'll pull COM00000910. This is Ontario's Emergency Regulations that were adopted after the provincial state of emergency was declared, so you can reference it as necessary. But what was your understanding of what additional powers the Emergency Declaration and the Regulations provided to MTO and to the Registrar of Motor Vehicles?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So largely -- the first I would say is there was a direct nexus between blocking or impeding critical infrastructure, as identified here, to the ability for the Deputy Registrar or the, sorry, the Registrar to suspend licences, driver's licences, vehicle plates, and CVORs. That was the most substantive change for the Registrar so for MTO to be able to implement, and of course, it also gave police other powers in terms of directing people to leave the area and other penalties.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So is it your understanding, then, that it provided MTO and the Registrar of Motor Vehicles the power to do what was being requested prior but couldn’t be done?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we can go down to section 3? So here it says: “No person shall impede access to or egress from, or the ordinary use of, any highway, walkway or bridge, where such impediment has the effect of, preventing the delivery of essential goods or services; severely disrupting ordinary economic activity; or causing serious interference with the safety, health or well-being of members of the public.” Do you know whether MTO or the provincial government had formed an opinion on whether that would apply to the vehicles parked on the streets of Ottawa; whether they would be causing, you know, (a), (b), or (c)?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My feeling is that this was intended to capture a situation like Ottawa, and was used by police in Ottawa, so I believe the answer to that would be yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And do you know whether either the MTO or the Registrar used any of the powers? And I believe if we go down, it’s -- keep going down. So the power at section 5 to order the owner or operator to remove a vehicle. And then I think it’s at section 6, is to impose penalties. Do you know if those powers were used by MTO or the Registrar?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They were. Not 5; I think police used 5. But the Registrar did, through the Deputy Registrar, use the powers of number 6.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know when those powers were used?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It was at the time that the protests were being cleared in Ottawa; I want to say February 19th and 20th and maybe 21St.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So at the tail end, ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- during the enforcement action?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. I see a request on -- this is in the institutional report on February 12th, by the OPP to the MTO to supply concrete barriers. Is that a type of assistance that MTO would normally provide to OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It could be if there was a need to have some sort of highway barrier for, you know, an extended period of time.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I take it MTO responded to that request positively?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We did.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
I saw in an email on this topic, I can pull it up if need be but that there was difficulty in -- with certain contractors in providing those barriers. Are you aware of ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. It was a similar situation as to what we were having with the tow trucks, that contractors were worried about the implications of provide -- of helping. So it took -- you know, it had to go through several to find one that would -- that would be able to supply. Ministry of Transportation doesn’t have our own source of contract barriers, so we had to use -- or sorry; the barriers, the concrete barriers, so we had to use contractors.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. If we could pull up ONT00000081? So this, I believe, is a February 15th email with respect to the Federal/Provincial/Territorial Crime Prevention Policing Committee. And it’s on this topic of Transport Canada Strategic Enforcement Strategy. We can go down. So I believe this is an email where MTO provided some comments on Transport Canada’s draft Strategic Enforcement Strategy. What was your understanding of that strategy?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding of the strategy was that Transport Canada wanted to give a playbook for the federal government, the provincial government, and police to be able to use consistent messaging and consistent approaches to how enforcement could be deployed in response to the protests.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand MTO had some revisions, some proposed amendments to this strategy. Do you know what the nature of those amendments were; what were MTO’s concerns?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So, I mean, this would be pretty normal for -- there’s a -- you know, a good cooperation generally between the federal government and the Province, so as they’re developing documents, they’ll send out drafts and we provide our input. In this case, it was generally to try and make sure that it was -- we tried to make, like, fact-based edits to their document. I don’t believe it’s in here, but I do know in meetings we suggested that this type of document should go through -- again, through the Ministry of Solicitor General.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you know whether the strategic enforcement strategy was finalized and whether those comments were integrated?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember seeing a final version of this.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know why that is?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So do you know whether it was ever implemented, then?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. In the institutional report on February 17th, it states that, at the request the OPP, MTO secured heavy tow trucks to support police efforts in Ottawa; those are the 10 tow trucks we referred to?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Did the Provincial Declaration of Emergency assist at all with that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t believe so. I don’t believe so.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we could pull up ONT975. If we could go down to the second email there? This is a February 17th email: “I wanted to share as FYI a request we received from OPP to confirm access to driver photos in response to the Trucker Protest....As you may know, MTO currently has strict guidelines for the use of MTO photos by officers however police can access under extreme circumstances. Police indicated they will be using these photos to help in criminal investigations regarding identifying offenders.” Are you familiar with this request?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I am. It’s not an area of the Ministry I’ve ever had any involve -- direct involvement in. But I can do my best to give you some context if...
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Well, I guess the question is was -- is this a type of request that -- I understand in extreme circumstances that would be done. In other circumstances, it didn’t require any emergency legislation, provincially or federally?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, no. Essentially, my understanding of this is it’s to allow police to -- they already have access to driver’s licence photos. This allows them to reproduce the photos if they need to. And it’s commonly used in -- for investigative purposes, or could even be used for, you know, an Amber Alert, or something like that, where they wanted access to a picture or something like that, so ---
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- those would be the type of exceptional circumstances.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. If we go to, I understand an Operations Plan for Ministry officers was adopted to assist with the enforcement action in Ottawa at the tail end of the protest; you’re familiar with that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just briefly explain the purpose of that plan?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
So my understanding was this just brought a little bit more specificity to their role to support the clearing of the protests. So they had some additional duties where they were going to be working at the areas where tow trucks might be removing vehicles and where they might be taking them for storage.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So their additional duties would be involved in the removal of vehicles and bringing them to storage.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, sorry. Just to clarify, so they did not actually remove vehicles but just making sure that the mechanical fitness was sound so that they could be towed, and then in the -- wherever the drop-off point was, just to assist police with that, and also if police had any questions on completing any of the forms that they needed to do with -- related to the Deputy -- the emergency orders or anything else.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know whether that plan was developed in conjunction with law enforcement?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t specifically know, but I would imagine it would have been.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And just for the record, that document is ONT00000452. We don’t need to pull that up. If we could -- I just want to pull up briefly ONT00000976. This is one of the enforcement letters that was issued. Sorry, one of the warning letters. If we can go down. Sorry. So this is the type of enforcement letter. Were these actually issued?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. There was -- I believe the number’s around 50, 50 to 60 of these that were issued at the request of police.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And I think there’s a reference in document ONT453 -- we don’t need to go there -- to this being done at the request of OPP, as you said. Do you know why -- this was in relation to authority under the provincial Declaration of Emergency; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why -- as I understand, these were issued on the 17th of February. Do you know why there was a -- it took five or six days before these kind of letters were issued?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t have any insight into the police planning around the -- around that.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Lastly, I’d just like to go to SSM.CAN.00000439. So I understand that there was a -- kind of a post-mortem discussion that was held between Transport Canada and the MTO. Is that right? Or maybe this is just ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t specifically recall one.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
So it says here at the top, “As mentioned the other day, we reached out to MTO for a post-mortem discussion on the blockades”. This is on March 4th. Do you remember that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember participating in a call. It’s possible I did. I don’t specifically remember the call, though.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you remember preparation for the call or ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
--- hearing about it after the fact?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
No. Okay. So I’ll just get your take on some of these takeaways from the call. It says: “Here are a few key takeaways. They are now [they being MTO, I understand] are now working through regular regulatory processes with respect to the trucks involved in blockades. For example, if there were tickets laid that impact CVOR, they will run the course of conviction and then would be reflected on the record.” (As read) Can you explain what that means?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. So that’s as I was talking about before. So if there’s a conviction that’s related to mechanical fitness or driver behaviour, that is related to the commercial vehicle operator registration. Once a conviction happens, it then goes on the CVOR record.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And here it says that they are now working through. Has there been any change since the events in question here in MTO’s approach to those types of convictions?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
No. And then if we just go down a little bit, the third bullet point: “For out-of-province trucks, of which there were many, plates were seized and mailed back to the registrar of the home jurisdiction with an explanation letter. However, there is no mechanism to ensure that there would be an impact on the operator record. MTO is waiting to hear what the response from those provinces and territories will be.” (As read) So my understanding is that that’s still an issue, the ability to enforce CVOR penalties in other provinces and territories?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right, yeah. That’s as I described earlier.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
And then lastly, if we go down in terms of lessons learned to the second bullet under that: “At provincial level, what was lacking for MTO was ability to take immediate action on misconduct aside from temporary powers under the provincial Emergencies Act. The system right now only kicks in when there are convictions.” (As read) And that’s consistent with what you’ve told me to date; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Counsel (POEC)
Great. Thank you so much, Mr. Freeman. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe we’ll take the afternoon break now for 15 minutes and come back and continue with the examination of this witness.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is in recess for 15 minutes. La commission est lever pour 15 minutes.
Upon recessing at 4:38 p.m.
Upon resuming at 4:56 p.m.
The Registrar (POEC)
Order. À l’ordre. The Commission is reconvened. La commission reprend.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think first up is the Government of Canada.
ADM IAN FREEMAN, Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN van NIEJENHUIS
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner, and good afternoon, Mr. Freeman.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
My name is Brendan van Niejenhuis. I’m one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada in this matter. Could we go, please, to ONT00000447? I think we saw this before. This was a note from Jessica Barton to all MTO; yes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s -- no. It’s to a particularly -- it’s, sorry, to the enforcement branch of MTO.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I see. Okay. Let’s look down the page there. Just under “Good afternoon” she refers to a planned convoy called the “Convoy for Freedom,” right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we go a little further down the page, I think, to the fifth or so paragraph. There we go. You see that the paragraph -- the little, short paragraph there with the link highlighted in it, “The schedule of dates and routes are planned”?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
“And can be found at this website”?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And the website there is the website called, “BEARHUG - Canada Unity, BEARHUG 2.0,” right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You’re familiar with that being a website operated by Mr. James Bauder?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You weren’t, yourself, paying close attention to the different factions, so to speak, of convoys coming?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
The distinction between the BEARHUG - Canada Unity group and the King and Lich convoy -- or, sorry; Freedom Convoy?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. At this point I wasn’t directly involved in this. I was only following it, what was in the media.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Can we go, similarly, to ONT00000973? And this, too, is a note from Jessica Barton, and this is to Transport Canada, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And this is sharing information, also on January the 21st, about the upcoming Convoy for Freedom?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If you just go slightly down the page to that first entry in the table, you see already she has information with respect to a planned protest regarding border control in both Windsor and Sarnia; yes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that plan is what’s referred to as a slow roll, based on the description offered there?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then moving further down the page, so the next table entry you see again reference to the Convoy for Freedom, and the BEARHUG or canadaunity.com website; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And so again, to the beset of your knowledge, there wasn’t awareness on the part of MTO at that time of there being other convoy groups, such as the Freedom Convoy group associated to Mr. Barber or Ms. Lich, et cetera?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that -- I don’t know that I would take from this email that there was an awareness of other groups. I can’t speak to why only this particular website is identified. So I can’t say with certainty that the answer to that question.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Fair enough. Can we go to ONT00005150, please? And so do you recognize this series of operations planned for MTO with respect to the Freedom Convoy?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And this is a document that went through various iterations; it’s sort of a living document as things evolved; fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Three’s multiple versions of this. We went through some of them, I think, in the ---
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And this one appears to have been amended up to January the 31st?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we could go to page of the document, please? If you look at the bottom of this page, you’ll see -- if I’ve got my numbers right, yes, you’ll see a list here of truck inspection stations across the province, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And this is a list that truck -- tracks -- it’s not all of the stations but this tracks the route of the Convoy for Freedom as it was understood by MTO at that time, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can’t say for sure, but that -- without seeing if the document states that. But just looking at these locations, that would seem to be correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And also just looking at the text above it which said, “This plan has been developed”?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right, right, yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You can continue on to page 5. Okay. And just stopping at the first paragraph. Again, you see this is a group of commercial vehicle drivers planning a truck protest dubbed, “The Convoy for Freedom,” right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then in the fourth bullet under, “Background” -- sorry; the third bullet under, “Background” you’ll see that, again, this is associated to the canadaunity.com website, as opposed to other groups, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Is it fair to draw the conclusion that the intelligence or the information available and promulgated by MTO was really being drawn from the canadaunity.com website, in terms of intended routes and so forth?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s possible but I wasn’t part of the design or the creation of this document or really involved at this time, so I can’t verify that for you for sure. But this document, obviously, only refers to that.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we just look under “Mission Statement” a moment, and then carry over the pages to see if it continues; I can’t recall. It does not. So if we go back up to “Mission Statement,” these are the key mission items that, I guess, have been compiled by your staff with respect to the Operations Plan, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you see that’s what’s being considered is whether to close TIS facilities if necessitated by protest activities, right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Were you aware at the time that more trucks and convoys were anticipated to be joining the existing Ottawa scenario at that point? Recalling this is the Monday after the first weekend.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I feel like by the Monday we had a good sense that it was getting bigger than we had initially thought.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And, of course, we saw earlier, you already knew that there were affiliated or sympathetic protest activities that were contemplated or planned in the areas of the Ambassador Bridge at Windsor and at Sarnia; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And was consideration given, so far as you’re aware, to whether in fact it might have made sense to activate the TIS stations to require inspection of the trucks that were assembling in these locations?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
My understanding from talking to the enforcement director is they did have conversations with the OPP, and they were asked not to use the truck inspection facilities for this purpose.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. If we go to page 7, please? In the second bullet point under “Enforcement,” I see there it reads in the last sentence: “Officers will not be involved in any commercial vehicle traffic stops of vehicles that are participating in the convoy protest unless directed to do so by the site leads.” (As read) Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And was that similarly at the request of the OPP that your officers from MTO not be involved in such stops?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can’t say that what went into this was as the result -- request of the OPP, but I would say that, you know, as a general application of these types of, you know, protest-type activities, that MTO would not interfere.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go, please, to ONT.IR.00000001? And I’ll ask to go to page 7 when the document’s up. This is the Ontario Institutional Report, Mr. Freeman.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we go to page 7, and to the entry for February the 4th, and that’s the entry for 16 -- sorry; let me actually do the first bullet. A 9:09 a.m. entry; do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
It indicates that: “MTO officers began supporting the OPP with issues arising from the planned protest at Queen’s Park in Toronto, including blockage of GTA highways.” (As read) Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And hat lasted until Monday, February 6th; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
That would be the second weekend of the convoy events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And at that time, similar assistance was not provided by MTO with respect to the scene in Ottawa; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, my understanding on that weekend is MTO officers were also providing regular patrols in Ottawa as well. I believe MTO was also assisting with closing of highways. I don’t know whether it was done through enforcement officers, but I believe that weekend there may have been some highway closures. I may be wrong in my facts, but I know there was definitely times where MTO assisted with closing of highways or exits at the request of the OPP. It’s possible it wasn’t on that weekend.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Is it fair to say you don’t recall when, but you believe that it occurred at some point?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If I look at the next entry on February 4th at 1645, representatives of MTO attended an urgent meeting convened by Transport Canada; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that was: "...to discuss provincial [and] territorial mitigation measures directed at the 'Freedom Convoy' protests." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go now, please, to ONT00002759? And just to be clear, you did not attend the February 4th meeting; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Can we go to the bottom email, which is at the intersection of pages 2 and 3? There we go. You see there's an email here from Aaron at Transport Canada, Aaron McCrorie at Transport Canada, to you and others; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Your provincial and territorial colleagues?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And Transport Canada here is again apologising for the late evening email but hoping to have a follow-up discussion tomorrow, that is to say, Saturday, the 5th, at 11:30 in the morning; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And I guess that's central time, so 12:30 here?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you attended that meeting?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I did.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If you go up page 2 to see your report onward from the meeting. There we go. If you just go a little further up we can see where it starts. Okay. So let's just see. You're reporting out to your staff, I believe. Could we just go to the email header? Reporting out to your staff; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
One was my staff, two were Assistant Deputy Minister colleagues.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
I see. Okay, to your colleagues and staff?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you're reporting on what happened at the meeting from your perspective?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we just go a little down a page there. You're reporting on what Transport Canada is looking for with respect to three things, which if I may summarise: the impacts of charges that lead to commercial vehicle operator registry points; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Legislation that protects critical infrastructure and services from disruption; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And lastly, incentives that might be offered to tow operators or penalties to compel them to provide services; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you go a little further down the page. You say: "[They're] hoping for any [information] we can provide [as soon as possible]." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And Transport Canada has called this an urgent meeting; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And what you say to your colleagues and staff is: "My suggestion is we pull what we can easily do on Monday and send [end of day].... Best efforts here. If something isn't available I think we can say that." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
So you're saying to your colleagues and staff, essentially, don't work too hard on this, don't kill yourself, we'll deal with it on Monday. Fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I don't -- I didn't mean it to say that. I think people -- it's a Saturday, and I -- they would need to engage other people to try and find these things out. So I was suggesting that we would have something to them by end of day Monday.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Can we go to ONT00003842? This is the February 6th meeting, Mr. Freeman, the Sunday meeting to which I believe you didn't go, but you did sent Laurie LeBlanc; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
She's the Deputy Minister, so she -- I don't ---
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- send her, just to be clear.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Excuse me, I've got the ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, it's my boss.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
--- roles reversed.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we go to page 6, please. If we go under where Mr. Keenan is speaking, he's got three bullet points summarised, and he notes at the last bullet point that the "Wellington encampments", that is to say, the Ottawa occupation: "...is the spiritual source of the protest movement." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And it's inspiring, in short, other protest activities that have begun to be seen in locations as far away as Coutts; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
"It creates the spiritual fuel that will sustain the actions of the various encampments." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if I look at Ms. LeBlanc's response, she is reporting in the third bullet that demerit points relative to the CVOR, as I take it, is a long-term strategy that will not help with the situation in the short-term. Is that fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then also, that the trucks are from outside province and that adds a layer of complexity to enforcing on a licensing basis; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that's what it says.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if I look at the top bullet, she says that, with respect to tow trucks, MTO will just be working with the private sector to see what's out there. Fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now, the next day, February... Or actually, can we go to the last page of this document? You see there the second last speaker noted is Jody Thomas, the National Security and Intelligence Advisor. Yes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And she says she regrets ending on this point. Asking: "Would the Province be looking to the Federal Government if this protest was happening outside of the City of Ottawa [for example]...in other places like Kingston?" Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
M'hm.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And perhaps this is question can ask tomorrow, but it appears Deputy Solicitor General Di Tommaso says: "This is a protest and encampment movement against the federal mandate on trucks. They came to Ottawa from across the country for that purpose." Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's what it says, yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Does that reflect Ontario's attitude at that point towards the Ottawa protest as a federal responsibility?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don't know if I can speak for all of Ontario. You know, I was just being brought into this from the federal government at this time to look at options. I don't know that we thought this to be purely a federal problem. We did -- I do think we understood the movement was against the federal mandate, but you know, in our minds this was a policing issue, not necessarily a federal versus provincial issue.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to SSM.CAN.00005289? I'm showing you a text exchange from your Minister -- with Minister Alghabra of the federal -- Federal Minister of Transport; okay? Are you familiar with these exchanges?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
No. Were you involved in any calls with Minister Mulroney and Minister Alghabra?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. We can just take a look at them a second and scroll down the page. It's clear, though, that assuming that's what they are, that this is Minister Alghabra asking for a call; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And February 7th, 3:50 p.m., Minister Mulroney, fair to say, does not respond in the sense of scheduling a call; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, it sounds like she's waiting for an update.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Fair enough. And if you go to the bottom of the text exchange, you'll see that Minister Alghabra reports on February 7th at 8:23 p.m. that the Ambassador Bridge is now blocked; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
If we go now to SSM.CAN.00005290, the exchange continues. Minister Mulroney does not respond for about 24 hours, at least if these texts are accurate?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And she refers to a letter from Laurie LeBlanc, being, what, addresses the ideas that have been suggested; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That's what she says, yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Go further down the page. And Minister Alghabra says he'll look at it, but would be good to speak tomorrow; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Go to SSM.CAN.00005291. Mr. Commissioner, I think I've just hit my 20 minutes on my clock. May I have another four or five minutes to complete this area?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, go ahead.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And at the top of the page, you see Minister Mulroney now sends a letter along, says "happy to speak once you've had a chance to review"; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Continue down the page. And you see the -- by Friday, February 11th, excuse me, Wednesday, February the 9th, Minister Alghabra is again asking "who do you recommend in your office we should reach out to for a call?" Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I understand they did speak, and we'll come back to Ms. LeBlanc's letter in a moment. If we could go to -- well, actually, let's go to the letter briefly, ONT00000156. This is the letter of February 8th from Ms. LeBlanc; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you go to the third paragraph on the page? Oh, I’m sorry, the fourth paragraph. She, here, is, I think, saying roughly what was said in the meeting; right? Is that -- CVOR sanctions have a complicated administrative process that will require time to be effective; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if you go to page 2 of the document, she says: “I know we all have empathy for the people of Ottawa that are enduring this protest, while also respecting and recognizing the right to peaceful protest, and the MTO will continue to work with SOLGEN.” (As read) Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. so no additional contribution from MTO from a regulatory perspective, as communicated here?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not here, not, but, you know, we did -- maybe this isn’t your question, but just in case this is helpful, we did, you know, immediately move from this to develop options, which ultimately became, later that week, that same week, in the Emergency Order.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Could we go to SSM.CAN.00001001? And we’ll go to the very end of the document, please. Just above that, you can see that this is a read out of the February 9th call between Minister Alghabra and Minister Mulroney?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And the indication here is that: “Mulroney’s message to us is that they see these as federal trade corridors. They want us take the lead. Minister Alghabra pushed on this and said that that would need to be a formal ask. They have said they don’t have the ability to do more from MTO. They agreed to work with our department to see if there’s anything else that can be done. Overall, I would say the tone was difficult and they were trying to put this on us.” (As read) Were you present at that call?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
So this is Minister Alghabra’s recollection of the call. I suppose you wouldn’t be able to contest that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I -- no, I don’t know his recollection.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now, sir, you know Huron Church Road in Windsor that leads to the Ambassador Bridge?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You’re aware that’s a municipal road where the Windsor Police Service, or alternatively, the Ontario Provincial Police are police of jurisdiction?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that connects Highway 401 to the port of entry, and the 401 is OPP and MTO jurisdiction; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And similarly, just while we’re at this, Wellington Street and the streets of downtown Ottawa under occupation by the Freedom Convoy, likewise, were under the jurisdiction of the Ottawa Police Service, or alternatively, the Ontario Provincial Police and within the authority of MTO from a transport regulation perspective; fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Now, on February 11th, Premier Ford declared a State of Emergency and invoked the Ontario Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that was followed by regulations that actually implemented the measures, which did not happen until the 12th; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And that was the Saturday of the third weekend of the convoy events?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
You’ll agree with me that critical infrastructure defined in those regulations included 400 series highways?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
It did not include municipal roads; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well it did -- it did, in that -- and we went through this. We’d have to bring it up so I could describe, but it does include municipal roads. And those powers were deployed in the City of Ottawa, if that’s where you’re going.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Yeah. In terms of the power to order to leave or order to depart; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
All provisions, including CVOR powers that were talked about previously.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You’re aware that on February the 14th, at approximately 4:30 p.m., the Prime Minister announced the invocation of the Emergencies Act; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you’re aware that the Premier of Ontario, that morning, had expressed his support for the Emergencies Act being invoked during the First Minister’s meeting; yes?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall that specifically, but.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Are you aware that the Premier of Ontario has recently reaffirmed his support, saying that he stood shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister in making that decision?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I did see that in the media.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we could just go back very briefly to ONT.IR.0000001? Actually, I’m sorry, we can just skip that. Can we go back to ONT00000179? And this is my last point, Mr. Commissioner. I apologize. If we could just go to page 2, please? The top of the page? And if you want to look at the header, this is an email which refers to the 10 tow trucks you indicated were sourced for Ottawa when you corrected your witness statement at the beginning of your examination today; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And you’ll see, if you go down to page 3 in the bullet points, which is an email from earlier on the same day, February 16, there’s a third bullet point there that says: “Important: All three towing companies have requested [a] letter that the province […] will cover costs […] indemnity from [other] damage [and] claims [for] vehicles that are towed…” And so forth; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And it says that’s because: “…their insurance companies […] specifically told them that they will not cover [those] risks.” Right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
And if we go then, finally, back to the top of page 2, this is the evening of February the 16th. It indicates that one of the three towing companies has in fact dropped out, which is what gets you to the number 10, instead of 13 that you thought you had earlier that day; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And then, by now you know about the EA. The first bullet says: “Need [a] letter from the OPP requesting these two companies to provides services and stating that the Federal Act [that’s the Emergencies Act] will cover any damage […] and [indemnity]…” Correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And if we go to the very, very top, you’ll see that Jasan Boparai’s reporting that he’s told them, being the towing operators, that: “…[this] letter will come tomorrow. [And that] [t]hey [are] moving tonight based upon [him] and Steve’s commitment [and] credibility.” In the absence of that letter; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan van Niejenhuis, Counsel (GC)
And we’ve been through that letter with Commissioner Carrique. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions. Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Commissioner.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. JENNIFER KING
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Good evening, Mr. Freeman. My name is Jennifer King. I’m legal counsel to the City of Windsor.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hi.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
In your witness summary, and you’ve mentioned in your testimony, you state that you’re aware that MTO assisted the OPP in identifying contractor to place concrete barriers in Windsor?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
And this was at the direction of the OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
I take it that you understand that this was to better manage future risk of vehicles being used for blockades and disruption of cross border movement of people and goods?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Are you aware that there was confusion at MTO at the time as to who would pay for these barriers?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’ve subsequently read in the documents that there was questions as to how it would be funded.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. So I’ll show you some documents. If you could please pull up, Mr. Clerk, ONT00000182? While this is coming up, Mr. Freeman, this is an email dated February 15th between Jasan Boparai of MTO and Supt. Dana Earley of the OPP. And Commissioners heard this week that Supt. Earley shared joint command of the police response to the blockade with Supt. Crowley of the Windsor Police. And you’ll see, if you could scroll down just a little bit, the first bullet, you’ll see that it says: “Upon request by the OPP, MTO has supplied Temporary Concrete Barriers […] through [a contractor].” And if you go to the sub-bullets, and you can see here, part way down: “Since these TCBs are being installed along a municipal roadway, MTO has requested the OPP to advise how compensation to the contractor can be arranged.” Next bullet states: “Preliminary thought from the OPP is that compensation would be through federal funds available to support the emergency response to re-open the Windsor-Detroit crossing.” Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Were you aware of that at the time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, I didn’t have any involvement in this at the time.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And if you could just scroll up a bit? You’ll see that the estimate for the work is $1.3 million?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. If you could please turn up ONT00000438? This is an internal email exchange at MTO dated February 16th, Mr. Freeman. And it’s involving Doug Jones. And by February 16th, he is Deputy Minister?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Likely his first week on the job.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. If we could scroll to page 3, please. Further down a bit, please. There you go. Thank you. So on February 16th, Doug Jones is writing to Stefano Oliviero. Who is that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That would be an advisor in his office.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And you’ll see that Doug Jones is talking about a conversation that he has with the CAO of Windsor. That’s Jason Raynar. And he talks about, again, this issue of costs of the concrete jersey barriers and a concern that has been raised by Jason Raynar about how much the city would be responsible to cover. And it’s not clear to me based on the -- because this is black and white -- who made the statement, but someone at MTO was under the impression that the total cost for the installation, removal and rental of the jersey barriers would be covered 100 percent by MTO. Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. I read this as him asking that question.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And so I’ll take you to one more document here, WIN00002143. So this an email exchange between CAO Raynar to individuals, so you wouldn’t have seen it at the time. Thank you. And if you could scroll all the way to the bottom, Mr. Clerk. Okay. And you’ll see here that he’s reporting to individuals at Windsor on February the 17th: “Just a quick update that I had a good call with DM Doug Jones, MTO, who is helping to coordinate a planning table with MTO, Sol-Gen, OPP, WPS and Windsor to discuss the long-term needs to protect our international crossings. I’ll let you know once I hear more.” And he continues: “The Deputy also indicated that he understood but was confirming that costs like the jersey barriers that were authorized by MTO staff at OPP’s request would be paid for by the Province.” Do you see that? So if you can scroll up, Mr. Clerk. And you’ll see an email from Mr. Raynar to the same group the next day, and it states: “It would appear that the new Deputy Minister MTO is finding out just how the Province works. He stepped back from both items today that we discussed earlier in the week. MTO will not be covering the costs of the barriers, although he said he would not be surprised to see an application for the Province to assist with those costs and others(?) at some point. No commitment to pay, though, at this time. The argument is that we are the road authority and we approved the deployment of the barriers, so therefore, responsible for the costs.” Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
The Commission heard from the Mayor of Windsor that Windsor has requested the Province reimburse their costs, including the costs of these barriers, but has not received a response. Do you have any information as to whether or not the Province will be reimbursing Windsor’s costs?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I haven’t seen the request and I don’t have any information. I’m sorry.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And if -- further down, in the next paragraph, Mr. Raynar writes: “In terms of the intergovernmental planning table proposal, there’s no interest at this time, given the ongoing situation in Ottawa.” I won’t take it to you, but the Commissioner heard on Monday from Mayor Dilkens, who testified that he sent a letter in March requesting that all levels of government sit down to discuss working together to protect important international border crossings. It’s my understanding that there’s been no response from the Province to this request. Are you aware of any response to Windsor’s request?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not. I haven’t seen the request, either, nor would I in my current position.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. Do you know if the Ministry of Transportation is planning to meet with appropriate agencies at all levels of government to discuss protecting critical border crossings in Ontario such as the Ambassador Bridge?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m not aware of what the Ministry intends in this regard. Again, in my current position as in corporate services, it’s not something that I would be aware of. I do know that the Province ultimately did pass further legislation and I can’t speak to who was consulted on that.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. So you don’t know if the Municipality of Windsor was consulted on that legislation?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I wasn’t involved in it, so I can’t say.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. I only have a few questions left for you. Do you know if the Ministry has an emergency plan pursuant to the Ontario Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, we do have a plan.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Which Assistant Deputy Minister at the Ministry of Transportation is responsible for that emergency plan?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I expect it would be Eric Deutsch.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. And what’s his title?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
He’s the Assistant Deputy Minister of our operations division.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. Do you know if the Ministry’s emergency plan addresses threats to critical transportation infrastructure like the Ambassador Bridge?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know the full scope of the plan, so I can’t answer whether it does or not.
Jennifer L. King, Counsel (Win)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. ANNE TARDIF
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Good evening. My name is Anne Tardif. I’m one of the lawyers representing the City of Ottawa.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hello.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
So we’ve explained that the CVOR is the Commercial Vehicle Operators Registration; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And you need one to operate a commercial vehicle in Ontario.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Correct.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And the CVOR program monitors and evaluates the operators’ safety records.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And the CVOR operator, the person who holds the registration, can be either a person or a corporation responsible for the operation of the vehicle.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. And I take it it only applies to certain categories of vehicles.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, over a certain weight, I believe.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
I have a note here that it’s 4,500 kilograms gross weight. Does that make sense?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That sounds right, yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Perfect. And we -- certainly we’ve seen in the documents and in your witness summary reference to sort of a demerit point system; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I take it that CVOR tracks the operators’ collisions; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Infractions.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, convictions. Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Convictions.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And any findings on safety inspections.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And over time, they rack up points until you get to a state where they have so many points that the Ministry may issue notice of the intent to either suspend or revoke the CVOR.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct. The only thing -- maybe the only thing I would just add to that is that’s -- there’s other interventions before it gets to that point.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
That’s the end of the process.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. And you’ve talked about the notice requirements, the due process and the appeal rights that are embedded within the suspension.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. And I take it we can agree that certainly some of the large trucks that participated in the convoy in Ottawa had CVORs. They were of that size.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And that at least some of them were involved or were committing or had committed as part of their convoy activities potentially offences under the Highway Traffic Act and possibly other statutes and by-laws; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would expect so.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. And if convicted, some of those offences would end up on their carrier record; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And contribute to that escalation of points that we’ve talked about.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
And I heard you explain that that process takes time, and that’s why the Ministry thought it’s not really a short-term solution; right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s part of it. It’s not only that it takes time. It also allows for appeals, hearings, which -- so I guess that’s part of taking time. But it doesn’t -- it doesn’t allow us to take direct, immediate action.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. You could issue notice of an infraction, for example, under the Highway Traffic Act today, but it would take perhaps several months, if not longer, to get a conviction for that to be reflected on the carrier record and you’d need several convictions before you got to the point in time where notice of the suspension would issue.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Likely, yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Right. Now, I understand that, but you also mentioned, and it was in one of the documents we saw -- I can turn it up if I need to -- that there was significant considerations with the use of the CVOR for non- roadside enforcement purposes. And in fairness to you, I wrote down that you said earlier today that you didn’t want to use that process, the CVOR process, to dry and do something else and that there was concern about affecting the legitimacy of the process. Do you remember saying something to that effect?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, something to that effect. Yeah.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Can you help me understand or help us understand what you mean by that? I understand the timing concern, but the other concern, this notion that you shouldn’t be using the CVOR process, the normal process, for what you perhaps viewed as an illegitimate or end to which is not suited.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think it was just as you’ve -- just what you’ve just said there, is the -- the legal analysis and the Deputy Registrar view, the experts in the Ministry was that if we start to use this for something that it wasn’t intended for or we have no process for which, it questions the Ministry’s thinking that maybe -- and maybe that applies to other actions that we take in the future. So, you know, the next time there’s a conviction -- or, sorry, there’s an action taken by the Ministry, have we shown history of constantly using our processes and legislation consistently and, you know, as they were intended for. I think there was a worry of that as well.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Was the concern -- just so I understand, was the concern that if there was a conviction for an offence; for example, under the Highway Traffic Act, that occurred during the convoy and that ended up on a carrier’s record, and at some point in the future form part of notice of suspension or grounds for a suspension of their CVOR, was that a concern to the ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
--- the Ministry?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Okay. So it was just a bypassing your normal process that was a concern to the Ministry.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, bypassing the normal process and using it for something that, you know, was never -- has never been used in the past, or intended to be.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
What is that something? That’s, I think, what I’m struggling to understand.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
To try and address a protest or a civil unrest situation, not to address specifically a case where we have a well-documented safety record and, you know, police records to us requesting certain activities.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Understood, thank you. Could we pull up ONT00000111? And could we scroll to the bottom? Or sorry; yeah, just to the top of that email. Perfect. You were taken to this email, Mr. Freeman, but not to this part of the chain. This is an email from Mr. -- I’m going to pronounce it Boparai -- I apologize if I’m butchering that. And if we scroll down we can see in his signature block -- a little bit further down, Mr. Clerk, thank you. He’s with the MTO; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
With the Highway Operations Management?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
So scroll up a little bit. He says, “Good evening Chief Supt. Carson Pardy:” So Chief Superintendent Pardy is with the OPP; we heard from him earlier in this inquiry. And he says: “My apologies for the cold-call. I’ve been working with Chief Supt. Thompson and Supt. Eaton on some other files and have recently been asked to lead/coordinate MTO’s overall response at the provincial level related to various...” And I’ll slow down here: “...blockades in the province. I am reaching out to you regarding the ongoing blockade at the Windsor-Detroit Bridge.” And I’ll pause here because C/Supt. Pardy was actually in charge in Ottawa, not in Windsor. Mr. Boparai was confused and that get clears up -- that gets cleared up, pardon me, up the chain. He says: “We are wondering whether the OPP has been collecting CVOR information of trucks blocking the bridge crossing and if available, can this information can [sic] be shared with MTO. This will allow us to review and be better prepared to support the OPP as this situation continues to evolve. Would be great if we can discuss this further or if you can connect us with the appropriate OPP contact. Thanks,” And if we scroll up, just so you can get the context, Mr. Freeman, that’s C/Supt. Pardy’s response advising that he’s in Ottawa leading the support plan for the OPS, and advising him who’s in charge in Windsor and giving some additional information. The reason I bring this to your attention is I had understood that in fact the position of the MTO was not to reach out and offer to assist with CVOR but only to act in response to specific police requests for assistance. And can you help me reconcile that with this email?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think we were trying to get a handle as to -- there was a couple of things. The first I recall there was antedotal [sic] communication we had heard that actually at the bridge it was mostly non-commercial vehicles, and I think we wanted to know if that was actually the case. We just wanted to understand more. And there was even -- you know, we were having all sorts of discussions as to how we could help. I think it’s important to know, we were certainly there to support the OPP but at this time, we had been having discussions with the federal government and others about what else can the Province do. At this time, we were looking at what sort of -- because we believed the CVOR did not work, what could we do? And that’s how the Emergency Order came about. Or I shouldn’t say that’s now the Emergency Order came about; that’s part of what went into the Emergency Order within a matter of two days was new powers that could do what was being asked. So we were looking at all sorts of different angles. We were there to assist the OPP; we weren’t doing any direct enforcement, but we were trying to gather information just like many other people were as well. So we were looking at all sorts of ideas, and I think this also connected, there was just a question; could we start calling CVOR operators to tell them that their truck might be there. Like, this was just, you know, one of the many angles we were trying to do to try and help solve the situation that week. Just because we didn’t think the CVOR was the right way to go, it didn’t mean we weren’t trying to find other ways to address the situation that week.
Anne Tardif, Counsel (Ott)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the CCLA. (SHORT PAUSE)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. EWA KRAJEWSKA
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Good afternoon, Mr. Freeman. My name is Ewa Krajewska, and I’m counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Mr. Freeman, let me just start off with respect to what is the MTO’s role in public protest or public demonstrations when they block highways or roads? Would you say that it’s typical that -- or not unusual for public demonstrations to create or inhibit traffic -- inhibit traffic?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They can, certainly. And the Ministry’s role would be the same as I’ve described; to assist police as requested.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And would it also be fair to say that you would also create signage and divert traffic as necessary in order to facilitate the demonstration?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, as requested by police.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So you would be guided by the OPP or the police of the jurisdiction to provide that assistance.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
To facilitate the protest?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And as -- would it then be also consistent -- we looked at the MTO’s plan with respect to the Freedom Convoy. My friend for the Government of Canada took you to the fact that the MTO suspended the inspections of trucks through the convoy. Was that also kind of part of facilitating the protest at the time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know if it was intended to facilitate a protest. I think it was based on the direction from the OPP to not engage in that way. Like, I just don’t know if the intent was as you’ve described, to facilitate a protest, or not.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay. But other than with respect to direction from the OPP or police forces, the MTO would not take enforcement measures against a demonstration.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And I know we’ve -- many of us have covered the CVOR issue, and if I could just go back to that again, the letter from -- the letter to Michael Keenan that you were taken to earlier, it’s clear that the enforcement under CVOR, the purpose is public safety; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No. The purpose is highway and -- highway and safety of travelling public.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Right. And to sanction non- compliant safety behaviour.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And as you told my friend, Ms. Tardif, your concern or the MTO’s concern about using the CVOR was that you did not want it to be used to -- in relation to civil disobedience.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It wasn’t so much that we didn’t want to, it was that it wasn’t intended or ever used in that way, nor do the procedures or the policies; that it’s the practical application of it was ever intended for it to be used that way. The Highway Traffic Act, as legislation, is about safety for travelling public and, you know, motor vehicles, not about public order or protests. It was never -- that’s not its purpose.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was there also a concern of setting a precedent to use the CVOR as a method of enforcement against civil disobedience?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know that it was so much a precedent, worry of a precedent. It was worry that it didn’t actually do what people were asking it to do.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And was there also concern that you would delegitimize the process that exists with respect to the CVOR and how it’s understood by both the government and industry participants?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah, that was a concern.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
I’m just going through my notes because a lot of -- some of these issues have already been covered. And my friend for the Government of Canada took you to the fact that the Ontario Declaration of Emergency was declared on February 11th, 2022, but the letters with respect to the, I’ll call it the CVOR enforcement under the EMPCA, were not issued until February 17th. And you’ve stated that that was an OPP decision as to when to issue those letters, when to issue those warnings?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know if it was OPP, but it was a policing decision.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
It was not an MTO decision?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And Mr. Freeman, did you have input to Minister Mulroney into what the MTO would be requesting under the EMPCA? Did you provide input as to what Cabinet should consider before the EMPCA was relied upon?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
We provided -- yes. So after we determined that the CVOR was not the appropriate mechanism, we began to develop options that could phonetically be used. We did brief the Minister on that. Ultimately, we provided input into what the Ministry of the Solicitor General was developing, for which they used.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
And can you provide just kind of an outline of the options that you provided to your Minister and to the Solicitor General?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well we provided options looking at, you know, increased changes to, for example, new legislation or changes to the HTA penalties that could exist. Those types of things.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
So amendments to the -- amendments that could be done to the HTA to increase fines or increase ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
--- enforcement?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Okay.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Ewa Krajewska, Counsel (CCLA)
Thank you, Commissioner, those are all my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the CCF.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SUJIT CHOUDHRY
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Mr. Freeman, good afternoon. My name is Sujit Choudhry. I’m with the CCF. I have some questions for you about tow trucks ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
--- and the legal tools to compel the provision of tow truck services. So I’d first ask the Registrar to put up the Emergency Measures Regulations under the Emergencies Act. And I have a document code for that, although I imagine it would be on speed dial here. But it’s SSM.CAN.00001911_REL.0001. So while we’re waiting for it to come up, I take it you’re familiar with the Emergency Measures Regulations?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m familiar, but by no means an expert.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
You referred to them in an answer to a question posed by my friend from the Commission though?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So can we go to page 8, please? So if we could just scroll down, please, Registrar -- Mr. Registrar, to 7(1)? That’s good. So would you agree -- if you could have a look at section 7(1)? Have you seen that section before?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Okay. So we’re going to read that section 7(1) and in substance says that a person must make available and provide tow truck services if requested by the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, or the RCMP Commissioner, or a designate; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good. Okay. So can we go down then to the next page, please? To 10(2). And so could you just have a look at that, please? Have you seen this provision before?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So would you agree that in substance, section 10(2) provides that it creates a criminal offence for failure to comply with the Emergency Measures Regulations, including the provision we just looked at together, section 7(1) in relation to tow trucks?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what it appears to do, yeah.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good. And there’s sanctions involving both fines and imprisonment under both summary and indictment?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good. All right. Now, I’d like to take you to the HTA, if I could. And so this document, Mr. Registrar, is CCF00000, I believe, yes, wait, 00000010. And while we’re waiting for it to come up, Mr. Freeman, you stated in your evidence this morning, or earlier today, I should say, that the HTA is a key Act, is that right, for the MTO?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
And so you’re familiar with it?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not all parts, but I’m familiar with it.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Well we’re going to take you to section 171. So this is on page 361, please. If we could scroll down just a bit? Okay. So if we could stop there? So this section is entitled “Tow truck services”. Are you familiar with this section?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in great detail, but I can understand it.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Okay. So I’d like to ask you a question that’s about section (3.1), which is on the next page. Let’s stop there. So this says -- so the title for this subsection is “Other prohibited activities”. And it says: “No driver of a tow truck, or other person who is in charge of a tow truck, shall engage in an activity prohibited by regulation…” Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what it says, yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good. Okay. Now let’s go down a bit further to (6). Stop there, please. And so (6) says that the Lieutenant Governor in Council, or the Provincial Cabinet, has the power, under (b) to prescribe prohibited activities for the purposes of (3.1). Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
And that seems to be quite a broad grant of authority to the Provincial Cabinet; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
You’re getting a little out of my depth in terms of legal interpretation here. Whether it’s broad or not.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
But it says -- it doesn’t say what’s sort of activities can be prescribed? It just says “prescribed activities”.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
“Prescribing prohibited activities”, yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Correct. Correct.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Okay. So ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
For the purposes of what’s above. But, you know, I just want to refrain from trying to interpret this too much here. It’s beyond my expertise.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Okay. And then let’s go up a little. I promise you this is the last subsection we’ll look at together. So if you could scroll up, please, Mr. Registrar, to (4)? This provision is entitled “offence”. It creates a provincial offence for breaching any provision in this section, which would include, of course, any regulation enacted pursuant to subsection (3.1); correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So, Mr. Freeman, I’d like to ask you this. Would you agree that under section 171, at any time the Ontario Cabinet could have made it a regulation that a tow truck driver cannot deny a tow truck services if requested by a suitable public official? So a municipal chief of police, the OPP Commissioner, or the head of the RCMP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t -- I don’t know the answer to that. It’s -- you’re -- there’s -- there could be other provisions here that suggest otherwise. I don’t know this well enough.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So Mr. Freeman, I’m going to press you on this a bit. I put it to you that this is the only section in the HTA governing tow trucks and that the -- that under this section, the provincial Cabinet can prescribe conduct by tow truck drivers, and that it’s an offense if a tow truck driver breaches that requirement.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I’m just -- I’m not a lawyer, and any time we would say what we can or can’t do we would -- it’s something we would engage our counsel on. So I don’t want to tie myself to an answer that I am -- could be wrong, for the Commissioner.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
So Mr. Freeman, I’ll conclude on this note, then: If in fact the provincial Cabinet could have passed a regulation requiring that a tow truck driver provide a service, and making it an offence to not do so, would that not, in substance, had been the same as the corresponding provision in the Emergency Measures Regulation?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I think based on what you said, possibly, yes.
Sujit Choudhry, Counsel (CCF)
Good, thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Convoy Organizers.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRENDAN MILLER
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Good evening. My name is Brendan Miller, and I’m counsel for Freedom Corp., which is the represent -- or the organization that represents the protesters that were in Ottawa in February and January of 2022. I just have a couple of questions for you, sir. Are you familiar -- and I’m assuming you’re familiar with most transportation law. I know my friend has put some things to you, and that you talk to lawyers, but are you familiar with the International Bridges and Tunnels Act?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not in any sort of depth.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. But you’re familiar of its existence?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And that’s a federal law?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And I understand it that that law is governed by the Federal Minister of Transportation; is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That I don’t know.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Okay. Are you aware that under that Act, that at any time, for the purpose of safety and security, that the Federal Minister of Tranport [sic]: “If the Minister is of the opinion that there is an immediate threat to the security or safety...any international bridge or tunnel, the Minister may make directions - including directions respecting the evacuation of [a] bridge or tunnel and the diversion of traffic or persons - requiring any person to do, or refrain from doing, anything that in the opinion of the Minister is appropriate to do [and] refrain from doing in order to respond to that threat.” So he’s permitted to just pass an order to vacate the bridge, vacate the area. Would that have been helpful?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, I’m -- so two things: Without the Act in front of me, I can’t say that that’s part of it or not. I’m ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
You know, I don’t work for the federal government. And, again, police were leading the response, so you’d have to ask police whether or not that would’ve been helpful.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And this protest, it started on the 7th?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, it started ---
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
The 7th of February?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
--- started -- oh, oh sorry, you’re talking about the -- in Windsor.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
In Windsor.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe that’s the date.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Right. And they cleared it on the 12th.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Twelfth (12th) and 13th, I believe, yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Before the Emergencies Act.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
And at no time did the Minister pass a regulation in order the vacate that bridge?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
The federal Minister?
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Yeah.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Not to my knowledge.
Brendan Miller, Counsel (Freedom Corp / Convoy Organizers)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
Emilie Taman, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening, Commissioner. Emilie Taman for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. We don’t have any questions. Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Windsor Police Service.
Thomas McRae, Counsel (Win-WPS)
Good evening, Mr. Commissioner. Tom McRae for the Windsor Police Service. We have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Police Service.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVID MIGICOVSKY
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Good evening, Mr. Freeman. My name is David Migicovsky; I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Police Service.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Hello.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
You were asked some questions by one of my colleagues earlier about MTO enforcement officers in Ottawa, and I believe you weren’t certain if they were used in Ottawa on the first weekend, so I’m going to see if I can help you. If we could call up, Mr. Clerk, ONT00000272, please? Page 1; at the bottom of page 1. These are situational reports that the MTO puts out. And you’ll see at the bottom of page 1, so this is January 28. This would be the Friday, and we see: “Convoy arrived in Ottawa starting at approximately 1:00....” And it says: “MTO Officers will assist as usual practice if requested by OPP. No current request for assistance.” And so I’ll take you to, then, the one for the following day, which would be the Saturday.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if we go to ONT00000273, please, on page 2. And if you scroll up a little bit, please? No, the other way, I’m sorry; scroll down. Thank you. So you’ll see on January 29th, so that’s the Saturday? “Convoys to arrive...at Parliament Hill....MTO Officers will assist as usual practice if requested by OPP. No current request for assistance.” Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so, as I understand it, and so I believe MTO did have enforcement officers there for the subsequent weekends, if I’m not mistaken.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I believe they were as well.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. In Toronto we know, however, that MTO was asked, in advance of the February 1st convoy arrival to be on the GTA highways, by the OPP, partly as a deterrent and to provide support to the OPP; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so that was in advance; it was the day before, I believe; is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t remember the exact time, but it was in advance of the expected weekend protest.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the focus was on the routes going into downtown and the 400-series highways.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And that’s because you had the Ottawa experience, so Toronto was treated a bit differently.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I -- again, we weren’t making decisions. It was the police who asked for the help, so I -- one could imagine that might have been why they wanted to do that.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And it was the OPP who specifically asked ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- for MTO to be involved. And Ottawa was always expected to be a peaceful event, I believe. That was in the original Operational Plan of the MTO, and the original announcement on January 21st that we saw; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That was MTO’s understanding, yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
MTO, we saw -- I took you to, when I started, the situation reports. And I understand those situation reports came out virtually every day and sometimes a couple of times a day during the convoy?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And so you would agree with me -- I’ve looked at the situational reports for January 23 up to January 28th, there’s no reference in them to the convoy causing major problems or to how long they’re going to be in Ottawa; does that record with your recollection?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall them speaking to the timelines or level of disruption.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Right. And I won’t call up the documents, but just for the record it is ONT00000260 to 0272. And it is only on January 29th, which is ONT00000273... Mr. Clerk, if we could please turn that up, on page 1? And if we could just scroll down, please? Yeah, sorry; if you can just stop there. Thanks very much. “Information received...” -- so this is January 29th: “Information received that the convoy/protestors may stay in Ottawa for up to a month or longer if their demands are not met.” So that’s on Saturday when the convoy is already there. And so up until then, I did not see it referenced. So I take it it only became relevant on the Saturday when they were already there? Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well that, I don’t know about relevant, but that’s maybe when whatever intelligence the enforcement community at MTO had became apparent.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if I look at all of the operational updates prior to January 29th, all of them refer tot eh convoy, but don’t note any particular concerns? There’s a heading on those documents called “Operational Updates and Impacts”, and there’s nothing of particular concern raised in any of them? Is that fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would have to look at them, but I don’t recall that being the case. And probably consistent with MTO’s role for, you know, protests, is we don’t get the same level of intelligence that police do. So that might have been the understanding of those who were involved at the time.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. I believe I’ve used my time, Mr. Commissioner. If I might have another just a couple of minutes?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Thank you very much. And I know on January 26th, and I can call it up if you need it, but on the January 26th Operational Update, I saw on page 1, and it was ONT00000267, there’s mention that one of the convoys there is about 135 kilometres length, but there doesn’t seem to be any particular concern noted. Do you recall reading it -- that? It’s actually in the ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
--- fourth -- third paragraph, I’m sorry. And there doesn’t seem to be any concern noted? MTO wasn’t trying to stop it on the highway or slow it down or divert it?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well MTO wouldn’t have that role. Again, in a protest situation, police would be the lead, and we would be there to assist. I don’t know, in any of these, that the level of concern is ever indicated and I didn’t -- I was not involved in these early reports. So I’m seeing them, you know, for the first time when we’ve pulled them up.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Sure. In fact, the operational plan of the MTO says officers will not be involved in the commercial vehicle traffic stops of people in the convoy; correct? That was the direction you had from the OPP?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And MTO, I believe, says in their plans that they recognize the right to peaceful protest, which is what this was supposed to be; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s what we understood it to be.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
I won’t call it up, but there’s reference to, and I don’t believe you were at the meeting, but there was a tripartite meeting, and it’s SSM- CAN.NSC.00002676. On page 2 of four, one of the issues raised, and I believe it was raised by Mayor Watson, was a request that the MTO, at that point, it was February 10th, get more involved, and noted that the MTO always sets up blitzes on 400 highways, but haven’t done so in this case. Is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I would have to see the document, but are you -- sorry, are you asking is his statement correct or ---
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
No, I’m asking -- yeah, is that statement correct, that the MTO does do blitzes on Highway 400 -- 400 series highways, but did not do so in this case?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
MTO does do enforcement blitzes, not directly on the highways, but, you know, near highways. In this case, we were asked not to do that type of work by police, by the OPP.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And sorry, just to finish up, I want to ask you a question regarding weigh scales. And one of the things considered by the MTO was to look at what Quebec did, because they had a convoy as well. And I understand they set up truck inspection stations, but Ontario chose not to do that. is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And the question was raised, and it is ONT00000092, the question was raised about whether weigh scales could be used to slow down the convoy, as was done in Quebec, but a decision was made not to do that in Ontario; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that’s my understanding.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And it’s on page 2, actually. Yeah. And I understand that under the Highway Traffic Act, MTO officers may stop vehicles and direct them to weigh stations; correct? You have that authority?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
And if weigh stations are open, trucks have to stop and be subject to inspection, check for weight, height, length, axles, proper class of license, et cetera?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
David Migicovsky, Counsel (Ott-OPS)
Okay. Thanks very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
Jinan Kubursi, Counsel (ON-OPP)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. It’s Jinan Kubursi, and I have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
Tom Curry, Counsel (Peter Sloly)
Thank you, Commissioner. Tom Curry for former Chief Sloly, and we also have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Saskatchewan?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MICHAEL MORRIS
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
Good evening, Mr. Freeman. Can you hear me?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
Thank you. My name is Mike Morris and I’m counsel for the Government of Saskatchewan. I just have a few questions for you.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
Mr. Freeman, I expect you’re familiar with the Council of Ministers Responsible for Transportation and Highway Safety?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And I understand that that council involves federal, provincial, and territorial ministers and officials? Is that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And there is an ADM level table for that council; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. Yeah.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And do you sit on that ADM level table?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t in my current role, but I did in the role that I was in during the time of the protests.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And I’m interested in February of 2022, during the protests. So you did participate in that table at that time; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And am I correct that officials from the Government of Saskatchewan also participated in that table at that time?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And this has been referenced already in your evidence, but I understand that there were meetings of the ADM level table on February 4th and 8th. Does that accord with your recollection?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. And maybe just to clarify too, it wasn’t a formal committee meeting, but members of the committee were meeting informally at the request of Transport Canada.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
Yes, my understanding is that the meetings were organized by Transport Canada and they were specifically because Transport Canada wanted to develop a common strategy to deal with demonstrations on roadways. Is that fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes. It was -- that was part of the purpose. Absolutely.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And these were effectively ad hoc meetings then? Is that what you’re indicating?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And they were organized then on relatively short notice?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And then in your experience, such FPT meetings can be set up on very short notice? Is that fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And can they even be set up on weekends if needed?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
They -- certainly people can ask to meet on the weekend. Again, I don’t know that formal committee meetings would ever occur, but informal meetings, I could imagine could be called at any time.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And during those meetings on February 4th and February 8th that were set up on short notice and which were ad hoc meetings, you had good participation from the FPT representatives; did you not?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my recollection, yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
I also understand that there was discussion at those meetings about, of course, this common strategy to deal with demonstrations on roadways, but that discussion was really about what might be accomplished with existing provincial and federal law? Is that fair to say?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, that would be part of the conversation as well.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
You’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that there was no discussion of the Federal Government potentially invoking the Emergencies Act on those meetings on February 4th or 8th; was there?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall it or see it in any meetings summaries, no.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
That would have been a big deal, if there was discussion of that nature, wouldn’t it?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Maybe to clarify, this is Ministries of Transportation, typically. So something like that might not be raised at that meeting, because it’s not necessarily a transportation tool. But yes, I would think it would be something we would remember and would report back on.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
And in your view, would those meetings have been an appropriate forum for the potential invocation of the Federal Emergencies Act to be discussed? And I’m thinking particularly because you have MTO officers that may need to exercise certain responsibilities if the federal law was used and new responsibilities were placed on them.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know -- I don’t know if I can answer whether it was fair or not. Certainly having time and awareness would be -- but I also know it’s -- you know, it a very big instrument for the government to -- the Federal Government to use, and I don’t know that they would start with a -- that group to speak to first.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
If that information were made available to you, for example, on February 8th, it would have been valuable and you would have been pleased to receive it; correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I mean, it’s -- the more information is always better. But I just -- I don’t know if I would agree that we would expect to hear about the Federal Government choosing to invoke such a, you know, legislation or a tool at that type of meeting. That would be my sense. I don’t know. I wouldn’t necessarily -- I wouldn’t expect to hear something like that in that committee.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
It might be above your pay grade? Is that what you’re indicating?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Michael J. Morris, Counsel (SK)
Okay. Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Government of Alberta, please.
Hana Laura Yamamoto, Counsel (AB)
Good evening. Hana Laura Yanamoto for the Government of Alberta, and we have no questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Democracy Fund, please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ALAN HONNER
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening. It’s Alan Honner for the Democracy Fund. Can you hear me?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. I’d just like to ask you a few questions about tow trucks. Can we pull up ONT.00003842? This is a document that my friend from the Government of Canada showed you earlier today.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Okay.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me, I’m sorry, I think that’s not the right document.
The Clerk (POEC)
Four zeros 3842?
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m sorry, just bear with me for a moment, please. Sorry, that was 3842? Four zeros 3842?
The Clerk (POEC)
Yes, that’s correct.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sorry, can we try ONT00000179? I’m looking for an email here from Jasan Boparai. That’s it. Thank you very much. Okay. So as I was saying, this is a document that my friend from the Government of Canada showed you earlier today. If we look at the top of the second page, so if we can just scroll down there, what we see here -- and actually, if you could just scroll up a little bit? Okay. So you see just up at the top, this is an email from Jasan Boparai and later in the text of the email, he says that the third towing company has dropped out and that you’re now down to 10 tow trucks. Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And if you just scroll down to page 3. A little bit lower. That’s good. In the first point in this email, which is dated February 16th, we see that the 13 trucks are heavy tow trucks. Do you see that?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So what you’re down to now is 10 heavy tow trucks, as opposed to 13 heavy tow trucks?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And would you agree with me that the -- if the companies were being compelled to provide tow truck services under the Emergencies Act or the measures available to them, they would not be able to drop out?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s my understanding of the federal legislation, yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And so this email suggests, when we read that somebody dropped out, that the three towing companies were providing their services willingly?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Alan Honner, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The CLA/CCDL?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. COLLEEN McKEOWN
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Good evening. Mr. Freeman, can you hear me all right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I can.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
My name is Colleen McKeown and I’m counsel to the Criminal Lawyer’s Association and the Canadian Counsel of Criminal Defence Lawyers, two organizations with joint standing. I know I’m standing between everyone and dinner, so I’d like to ask you just a few questions about the role and limitations of the Highway Traffic Act and the CVOR system. I know my friends from the City of Ottawa and the CCLA have already asked you some related questions, so I’m going to try to be brief.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Sure.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
You said in your witness statement and repeated here that addressing protests is not the purpose of the Highway Traffic Act or its associated licensing tools. Do I have that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Instead, the purpose of the HTA is to keep traffic flowing and keep the roads safe. Is that fair?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
It’s primarily a safety legislation, yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. And you identified in your witness statement some of the provisions in the Highway Traffic Act that would make it an offence for individuals to block a highway. And in the interest of time, I’m not going to pull up your witness statement, but you identified a few provisions. Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
There’s section 170(12), which prohibits parking or standing a vehicle in a way that interferes with traffic? Is that one of the sections?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And then section 132, which prohibits unnecessarily slow driving that impedes or blocks traffic? Is that one?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That sounds right. Yeah.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And then section 134.1, which authorizes police to direct the removal and storage of vehicles or debris blocking traffic?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And of course, you knew at the time that parking vehicles in the roadway was something that protestors did both in Ottawa and in Windsor? Is that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And that’s why you pointed to these particular provisions in your witness statement?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, I think I might have -- I maybe was asked for relevant provisions. But yes, that’s why.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
These are the ones that are responsive to that concern?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. And you’d agree with me that blocking a road can interfere with keeping traffic flowing and keeping roads safe?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. And you told us a little bit today about some of the ways the HTA and associated licensing tools can’t be sort of used properly. And for example, you explained that the MTO was concerned about the delegitimizing the CVOR certificate system by misusing it in the context of civil disobedience. Do I have that right?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That was part of the concern, yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And the MTO took the position that the scheme couldn’t be used to just cancel a CVOR certificate outright? At least not until the Emergency Order was in place?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right. Not without the due process and the collecting of evidence and following the steps.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Right. That’s the lengthy process that you sort of -- several counsel took you through and sort of shortcutting that, that’s the kind of action that would be a misuse of the CVOR scheme?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Or misuse of the demerit point scheme for outside the commercial trucking context.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Right.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
But I take it that it’s not the MTO’s position that the police should refrain from laying charges under the Highway Traffic Act where appropriate simply because this was a protest.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, I wouldn’t -- I don’t believe we have an opinion on what police do or don’t do. That’s up to police in the context of the situation that they’re dealing with.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Right, because that’s a policing decision, whether or not to lay charges, whether it’s an appropriate situation, whether there are other concerns. That’s a policing decision, not a decision that comes from the MTO.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. So police deciding to lay charges under the HTA, that’s not something that would be the kind of misuse that the MTO was concerned about.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
And so should the Commission understand your comments about the role of the HTA as being related specifically to the suggestion that perhaps the MTO could get involved and cancel licences or cancel CVOR schemes -- so I guess my question is, is your comment about the limited use of the HTA specifically responsive to that sort of suggestion that was being made perhaps by Transport Canada as they tried to understand the scheme, perhaps by commentators in the media? So should we understand your comment in light of those suggestions?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes, it was more specific to what MTO should do, not an opinion on what police should or shouldn’t do.
Colleen McKeown, Counsel (CLA/CCCDL)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination? Okay. Well, I just have a couple of quick questions.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just in terms of the demerit system, you talked about the problem that the regulation of the trucks and the -- their CVOR is provincial.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there no mechanism for transferring demerit points from one province to another if a vehicle from another province, a truck, incurs offences of some sort?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
No, there is. So my understanding is convictions that would happen in one jurisdiction are shared with the home jurisdiction and would go on their record there. What doesn’t happen is the points that are accumulated on our -- in Ontario there’s no -- sorry. I’m not doing a very good job explaining this. To maybe to really quickly answer -- to better answer the question, if there’s a conviction that happens in Ontario, another jurisdiction would report that on their carrier’s record.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I’m trying to understand what the problem was because of trucks from outside of Ontario. You’d mentioned that was a problem, and I’m not understanding it.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, so if we took action specifically, we can only take action from a -- a sanctioning action on Ontario carriers, meaning we can only suspend Ontario carriers’ CVOR. We don’t have the ability to remove or suspend the licensing of an out-of-province carrier. We can -- if police lay charges and there’s convictions in Ontario, that would go on their home record, but what that province does and how that impacts their licence in that jurisdiction, Ontario has no control over. Does that help clarify?
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It does and it doesn’t. I would expect the consequences are probably fair similar from one province to another if there are an accumulation of offences?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Absolutely. I would think that they would be somewhat similar from province to province, although I can’t speak to what other provinces have. The suggestion was more in response to, at the time, there was a suggestion, well, why don’t we just cancel their -- or suspend their CVORs or equivalent in other provinces. And the point that was being made is Ontario doesn’t have the power to suspend or cancel other provinces’ abilities to operate.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I understand that, but I think I also understood you to say Ontario didn’t have that power, either, without going through charges and et cetera, so.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yeah. Yeah. This is true. I don’t know that we were trying to say anything other than that it’s -- you know, we have control over the Ontario population of carriers. We do not have oversight of out-of-province carriers.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess that’s -- I might not agree in the sense that you have the same oversight. You’re supposed to supervise and charge them and make sure that they’re behaving in the same way an Ontario carrier would.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Well, police would lay charges or our enforcement officers for specific infractions, but the role of the registrar or the deputy registrar in sanctioning them only applies to Ontario carriers. Maybe that’s a better way to describe it.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand that. Now, one of the things I wanted to also understand is the emergency regulation in Ontario. It was -- it provided powers with respect to the licences, the CVOR. Isn’t that correct?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Yes.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, is the -- what’s the process there? Is there -- is it a charge to which they will then have to go to Court and they have a right to appeal and ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Specifically with the emergency order, there was no rights to appeal. It was a direct sanction that the registrar could apply.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s suspension immediate, which is the difference with the process of ---
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
That’s right.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the emergency order, you said at one point that there was no provision with respect to tow trucks in Ontario’s order.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Related, I think, specifically -- I think I was referring to direct that tow trucks must comply or any sort of indemnification.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. So there was nothing in that in the emergency order in Ontario?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Correct.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if that had -- if your Ministry had requested that that be included?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t recall that -- a request on that.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know if anyone else requested, any other Ministry or police requested?
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
I don’t know.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thanks very much for your testimony, and thank you for accommodating the Commission by switching. That’s much appreciated.
Ian Freeman, ADM (ON-MTO)
Thank you.
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So we are complete for today and we will come back tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we hope to -- well, it’ll be a fairly long day tomorrow again, but nothing new there. Adjourned till tomorrow morning at 9:30.
The Registrar (POEC)
The Commission is adjourned. La commission est ajournée.
Upon adjourning at 6:35 Ottawa, Ontario