Andrea Gonsalves
Andrea Gonsalves spoke 671 times across 10 days of testimony.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Kanellakos. I am Andrea Gonsalves, and I'm counsel for the Government of Canada, and I have just a few questions for you. I think I understood from your evidence this morning, but just to be clear, it's fair to say that during the period of the protests in Ottawa there were some areas where the protest activity was more volatile and some areas where it was less. Do I have that right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And where the situation was more volatile the risk to by-law and law enforcement officers was greater?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Some areas had greater potential for violence, greater risk of weapons being present?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And for example, are you aware that the Rideau and Sussex intersection was considered a more volatile, higher risk area?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. You recall him briefing you that there was a Quebec contingent there?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
They had an aggressive stature, they were well organised; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, we've heard a lot of evidence today about the City's injunction application. And I'd ask us -- I'd ask that document OTT, three zeroes, one, three zeroes, five be pulled up. Mr. Kanellakos, on the screen you'll see City of Ottawa and Persons Unknown Application record. You're familiar with that as the application record filed by the City in support of its injunction?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Generally. If we go down, I think it may be a couple of pages in. Actually, if you can go back to the next page where the index is. You're aware that Mr. Ayotte was the City's affiant. He provided the evidence ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- in support?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then the Notice of Application issued February 11th, are you familiar with that document?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sure. Let's just go ahead there. This is the document prepared by the City that set out the basis on which it was requesting the injunction; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And from the City's perspective, the injunction was necessary at this point in time because of the extent of the by-law infractions that were going on; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It's in the document, but I'll just summarise. The protestors' actions were interfering with the City's ability to maintain roads?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Perform snow removal?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Regulate the flow of traffic?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Enforce by-laws?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Provide public transportation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Perform waste removal?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The document describes all of these behaviours as a public nuisance that threatened public safety; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And by this point, despite over 2,000 by-laws tickets having been issued, these -- the by-law violations were not stopping; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And Associate Chief Justice McWatt of the Ontario Superior Court accepted the City's position; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Have you read her reasons?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You recall she described the City's evidence as overwhelming?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And she granted the injunction being sought under section 440 of the Municipal Act; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that injunction, I appreciate there were more details than this, but in a nutshell it was an Order requiring the protestors from violating -- requiring the protestors to stop violating by-laws?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That injunction was granted on February 14th; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that's the same day that the federal government invoked the Emergencies Act?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And on its own, the Court issuing the injunction was not enough for those protestors to get in their trucks and drive home; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But my point is it needed to be enforced.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And that enforcement, along with all of the other tactical enforcement measures, came within the days after February 14th; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was your concern from the very beginning if the injunction was brought at the wrong time and the enforcement capacity wasn't there?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Just a couple of questions on the arrangement with protest leaders. Again, we've heard a lot about that, and I don't intend to cover what's been said. But just to be clear, in response to my friend's question, this was never intended as a long-term solution; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And if it had accomplished its goal of providing some relief to individuals in the residential areas it still would not have cleared the streets of Ottawa of the trucks and the protestors?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It was contemplated within the agreement that trucks would remain on Wellington?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
On SJAM, for instance?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And other non-residential streets?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there was, for example, no effort as part of this arrangement to remove the concerning groups from those more volatile sections like Rideau and Sussex?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And even the modest goal of helping to achieve some relief for the residents, that's something you hoped could be achieved, but you were uncertain as to whether compliance would in fact occur; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, as things turned out there wasn't complete alignment; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, thank you. Those are my questions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I’m Andrea Gonsalves. I’m counsel for the Government of Canada and I have just one short area of questioning for you. You have testified under questions from a couple of my friends as to some confusion at the time as to the number of RCMP resources that were deployed under OPS command; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in particular, there was a discrepancy, as you described it, between what the Mayor’s office was being told by OPS and Chief Sloly, versus what you understood from federal officials; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Just to be clear, at the time, you were trying to get answers to make sense of information that on both sides you were receiving second or third hand; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you said you had no direct line of sight into exactly what numbers were being provided or how they were being deployed?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And your evidence today is simply by way of explaining your questions, communications, actions, and frustrations at the time; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And to get clarity on the actual numbers beyond anecdotal observations, you’ll agree with me that the Commission really needs to hear from the individuals who were involved from the agencies who were?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that would also apply to any reasons for any delay or lag?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Superintendent Beaudin. My name is Andrea Gonsalves. I’m one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. And I just want to first begin by confirming a few things around the role of liaison teams. This may be a bit of a simplified version from what you’ve testified to. But the role of PLTs is to work with event organizers to ensure that events are lawful, peaceful and safe; fair?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And they may do that through a variety of strategies, including, where appropriate, negotiation, de-escalation, trying to identify win/wins; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And where demonstrations are not lawful, peaceful or safe, PLTs may have a role to play in trying to steer them back in that direction.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
PLT strategies can also be helpful in reducing the footprint. We’ve heard you say that several times; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And by reducing the footprint -- again, perhaps this is simplified -- but we mean using techniques to encourage as many people as possible to leave the protest zone voluntarily without ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- police enforcement.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And success in that respect meaning defuse it, bring it to an end with no or minimal risk to officer or protestor safety, minimal damage being done, that sort of thing.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And reducing -- I think we’re agreeing here that reducing the footprint is especially important when Public Order units will be engaging in enforcement action to bring a demonstration to an end.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And sometimes that may be necessary, for example, when a protest has become illegal and there’s a need to restore the rule of law.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so PLT involves an element of negotiation, but also, you spoke about communication and education, ideally education before enforcement; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
PLTs build messaging around the potential consequences if they don’t -- if protestors don’t leave voluntarily because those consequences can act as an incentive to leave.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. The stronger the deterrent, the greater the effect it’s likely to have in getting them to go home.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And for those who might be thinking of joining an ongoing protest, messaging negative potential consequences can also act as a deterrent to joining; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, in questions from my friend, Mr. Curry, you spoke about the scope and scale of these protests being quite unique in our nation’s history; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Others, and I think you, too, have used the word “unprecedented”.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there are several features of the Ottawa demonstrations that contributed to the unprecedented nature and presented challenges for the liaison teams. You’ve spoke about a few of them, but I’ll try and summarize them all. It includes the size of the protest zone and the number of protestors.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One of the things that created challenges for the PLT teams ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- in successfully going about their role in getting people to go home, I think there are a number of them that you spoke about. I want to take them one by one. Is it fair to say that the size of the protest zone and the number of protestors contributed challenges for the PLTs?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you've got that sort of a scenario, the PLTs may be able to achieve some success in one area, but then the protesters there could move to another site, for instance?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In this case, though, we also had more protesters, more trucks coming in every week. It wasn't a static crowd the entire time. And that presented a challenge as well; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Described as a volatile, fluid situation. You spoke about the dynamics changing and evolving over time; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Over time, the protesters become very entrenched; right? This is one of the challenges that were faced by the PLTs.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You're aware of OPP reporting about one Farfadaa member saying he will leave only once he has regained his freedom or when he is dead?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that certainly suggests ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That kind of messaging suggests entrenchment; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You spoke about where demands of the protesters, what they're hoping to achieve, where it's unrealistic, that presents a PLT challenge; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And some of the demands here would be unrealistic?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Not only outside of the OPP's authority to grant, but in some cases inconsistent with our constitutional structure; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It was a disorganised group with different factions. That was another challenge; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we've seen some reporting about the organisation going so far as getting them to Ottawa, but once they got to Ottawa there wasn't that same degree of organisation; you're aware of that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Not all members of this crowd had the same objectives or had a common view as to how they would achieve those objectives; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I think I saw in the OPP's institutional report that there were 10 PLT members that were contributed by OPP? Does that sound right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were thousands of protesters that needed to be dealt with, and so resources were stretched thin?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You spoke about the interest that Public Safety Deputy Minister Stewart had in consulting with you about potential federal level engagement with protesters. You recall that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you understood that he was looking to you for this consultation so he could provide informed advice to ministers; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It wasn't his decision to make, you understood that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in fact, no decision was made at the time he approached you about whether there would be this kind of engagement?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you're looking at the idea of engagement or liaising with protesters, you're doing that from a police perspective?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You spoke about the importance of not having government interference in these police operations?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And by the same token, you, as a member of the OPP, would not be trained in or fully understand the perspectives of the governmental decision-makers?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you're aware, sir, that on February 13th, Mayor Watson of Ottawa had come to an agreement with one of the convoy organisers, Tamara Lich, to move trucks from the residential areas of Ottawa up to Wellington Street?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You're -- I take it then you're also aware that that agreement, and if that had been followed through with, then they would have had a meeting; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you're aware that that fell through?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
At least in part because some of the protesters who were parked on those streets did not want to comply with the agreement; right? Sorry, I didn't hear your answer. You're aware of that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that suggests that there was a problem of the purported leaders of the protest getting that buy-in, getting that compliance from the group; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
By February 15th, according to the OPP's Operational Intelligence report, there was no clear pathway toward reaching a satisfactory resolution that would see the protest group voluntarily end their action and depart the Ottawa area. You're aware of that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I said the date February 14th, I don't -- we don't have time to pull it up, but I'll just note for the record, OPP00003427 is where that appears in the report. Chief Superintendent Pardy testified to the Commissioner on Friday that by February 13th police had exhausted all negotiation, that negotiation with the protesters had reached the point where it was proving to be futile. And you wouldn't disagree with the Chief Superintendent on that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so by the time the federal Emergency Act measures come into place, the PLT role shifts from negotiation, et cetera, to communication and education regarding the consequences of the -- of protesters sticking around Ottawa when the enforcement activity begins; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you've told us you were involved in reviewing the notice to protesters to make sure that it was serving that function of education to get people to go home; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And my understanding is that it was important, not only to message the potential criminal offence consequences, but also measures that were specific under the Emergencies Act, like the prohibition on bringing children for instance, that was part of the messaging?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I see the Commissioner looking at me telling me my time is up. If I may, Commissioner, one last question. Superintendent, you're aware that there was another convoy headed to Ottawa on February the 16th?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And one of the things you wanted to be sure of is that the information was communicated to that convoy about the consequences under the Federal Emergencies Act if they were to travel to Ottawa at that point?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, those are my questions. Thank you.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Dichter. My name is Andrea Gonsalves. I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. So as I've understood your evidence, Mr. Dichter, you were the spokesperson and really generally media relations person for the Freedom Convoy; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were one of the directors of the corporation as well?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And do you have any formal training, degree or professional experience in communications, media relations, anything of that sort?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you do your own media?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. For instance, you've got a book that's set to be released next week that you're promoting through your own website?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And during the period of the protest, when you spoke or when you approved publications on behalf of the Freedom Convoy, those were -- you were speaking on behalf of the group that the Freedom Convoy represented; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right, and you've said previously you couldn't control the truckers, you couldn't control the protesters?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So Mr. Dichter, I've only got a limited amount of time.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And what I've put to you is a simple question that you have said in the past, in fact you've sworn an affidavit, it's in our documents JCF0000014, where you said, "I do not control the truckers and other participants in the current protest in Ottawa." Do you recall saying that in an affidavit?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I asked you about control. So I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And do you recall speaking at a press conference on January 30th?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. We have a transcript of that. It's COM00000895. It's a transcript, as I understand, of a video that has been prepared by Commission Counsel.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Have you had an opportunity to read that transcript?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Understood.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you would have no concerns about the accuracy of that transcript?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And we can put it up if you need your memory refreshed, but you said at that press conference that there were so many truckers you lost track; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the various participants in the protest had a variety of viewpoints, objectives, demands; fair?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was the baseline, and then there were others who wanted more. There were some, to your knowledge, you know that were interested in a change of government.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
When you say the Freedom Convoy, you're talking about that organisation where you're one of the board of directors, you've spoken about some others involved, and those who subscribe to that messaging and were following that group; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were others, such as Mr. King, who participated in the protests, he had followers, they had different objectives and views; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I know the document you're talking about.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It's GFM00000001. And that update to the GoFundMe page, in distancing the Freedom Convoy from Pat King, you felt that was important to pursuing the objectives that you and those you were aligned with ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the -- these concerns about what was being seen on the part of the protesters, this in fact prompted you to put out a number of public statements distancing the Freedom Convoy from violence; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that had to be done repeatedly. For example, there is a Sun article on January 26th, COM00000630. There was an Official Daily Event and Safety Report put out on January 27th, HRF00000008. And in fact, could we put that document up on the screen? Is this the type of document that would've been approved through you or one of the other three working on Communications?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Again, I'm going to ask you to just focus yourself on my question. All I did was ask whether you approved these messages before they went out.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
No. And if we go down maybe on the second page, bullet number 10: "Convoy organizers are developing an internal intelligence capability to identify potential sources of violence. A separate report on identifying violent groups/individuals will follow." And if that's going out in the name of the Freedom Convoy, it's being represented as something true and accurate; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. Now, the objective, as I understood it, from the GoFundMe page of the Freedom Convoy was to stay in Ottawa until all mandates were lifted.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You understand, sir, you do legal podcasts, you're a former candidate for Parliament, that the Federal Government does not have the jurisdictional authority to lift all mandates in Canada; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. Well, no, the wording of the GoFundMe page was "all mandates". I want to make sure we're on the same page that the best the Federal Government could do was lift federal mandates; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And sir, you didn't know that, that was something you hoped would happen; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But fair to say there was misunderstanding on the part of at least some participants about what the Federal Government could do with respect to all mandates. And there were times when you found yourself in the messaging ensuring that it didn't give the impression that the Freedom Convoy was asking the Federal Government to do that which it had no authority to do. Right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, sure, I'll break it down. There was misunderstanding by at least some participants in the protest as to these, you know, notions of jurisdiction and what the Federal Government could or couldn't do?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so I’ve seen in the documents -- I don’t have time to take you to them -- that there were times where you had to ensure that the messaging was refined to not leave the impression that the Freedom Convoy was trying to get the federal government to revoke all mandates; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were asked in January 30th press conference that we talked about ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- about whether there was any point to trying to get the federal government to lift the mandate on truckers crossing the border because there was a parallel restriction in place on the US side; do you remember that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, before you go on -- -
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- I just want to clarify that you did in that press conference say -- acknowledge that fact but say that you understood that the US restriction had been adopted at the request of the Canadians -- the Canadian Government.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But that’s what I want to make we’re both clear on. The US mandate was announced first; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, well, I think the evidence is different on that, but I’ll leave it there.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so when you and the Freedom Convoy say, “We are in this for the long haul.” -- you recall using that statement ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- at times?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were not willing to leave until your demands were met; fair?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And your understanding is that that group would not be prepared to leave Ottawa, that these were committed, dedicated individuals to their cause, yes, as you understood it, and they were not going to leave Ottawa until they had accomplished goals; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I’m one minute over my 15 minutes. Could I have another five, please?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And so we’ve heard you give some evidence about the agreement, the deal between Ms. Lich and Mayor Watson, and the tweets and your understanding of that series of events. And just to confirm, you did come to understand that there was an exchange of letters that set out an understanding, at a minimum, a deal as to what would happen for there to be a sit-down between the mayor and representatives of the Freedom Convoy; you understand that, yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you brought -- you discussed Mr. Wilson’s connections with those events this morning. Who did you understand Mr. Wilson’s client or clients was in the course of these dealing?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And did you ever see the letters that were exchanged between Ms. Lich and Mayor Watson?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
To this day, you’ve not seen those?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now you have, but not at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so I gather you did not make any efforts yourself to try and get those who were parked in the residential areas of Ottawa to move their trucks in accordance with this -- with this exchange of letters?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you never approved any sort of official written communication from the Freedom Convoy to its group of followers saying, “We need to leave the downtown residential,” or, “There’s a deal with the mayor that we need to make sure we comply with”?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you for the indulgence, Mr. Commissioner. Those are my questions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Ms. Lich.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I'm Andrea Gonsalves. I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada. You've told us in your evidence that you were not one of the founders of the Freedom Convoy, but you became involved because you wanted to help.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And primarily, your role was fundraising, and you were quite successful with that; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You told us you're not a trucker, you don't have a truck?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in the time you spent in Ottawa, there were obviously protesters, truckers who were sleeping in their trucks?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you didn't. You were staying in the hotels; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And during that time, you've told us it was incredibly busy and surely exhausting for you?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Lots going on. You said you were in and out of different meetings, briefings, on various calls. You were dealing with crowdfunding platforms, switching campaigns, for instance?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were dealing with the funds being frozen, setting up bank accounts, that all took a lot of your time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Setting up the finance committee and the various administrative aspects that went along with that also took portions of your time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were, through all of this, you've told us constantly meeting new people. There were new people arriving all the time that wanted to meet with you?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Lawyers, advisors, accountants?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Wilson, the other JCCF people, Mr. Eros were just some of the names you gave us; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you said this was a lot of pressure for you. You felt pulled in different directions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you participated in many of the press conferences. You were getting put in front of cameras?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
People were putting you forward as the leader. Mr. Wilson, you'll recall, describing you as the spark that lit the fire?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you also said people - - you felt at times people didn't see you. They just saw the money?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And all of these dealings were consuming a vast amount of your time during the days and weeks you spent in Ottawa?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You, I gather in all of this, couldn't leave your hotel very often?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, and occasionally ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Occasionally you spoke up on Parliament Hill?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you understand that the protest occupied quite a large physical geographic area of Ottawa?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Wellington right out to SJAM?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We've heard Parliament south as far as Sommerset?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Don't know the streets ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sure enough, and the evidence is in the record. You've heard there was trucks parked in the streets by the market in the Rideau and Sussex area?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. For a period of time in the early days anyway, they were out in Confederation Park? There was an encampment there?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the one out in Coventry Road parking lot ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- the stadium? As well as those that were a bit further out of town, 1500 Bronson Road; were you aware of that one?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you said yesterday something about 88. That would be exit 88 off of the 417?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Embrun.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Out in Arnprior. You heard about Vankleek Hill?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you, with all the demands on your time, were not spending the vast majority of your time in any of those places, right; you just couldn’t.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And I think I’ve seen you here throughout the hearing; you’ve been here almost daily?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we’ve heard some evidence about some of the things that were going on in the protest crowds. I take it this was evidence you were hearing, information you were learning for the first time; like the threats to the Mayor of Ottawa?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You didn’t know that Chief Sloly had received death threats?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You didn’t know that Minister -- sorry; Deputy Minister -- Deputy Prime Minister Freeland had received ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
A couple of days ago. And the Prime Minister was receiving threats?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Were you also learning for the first time, as you sat through this hearing, about numerous weapons-related arrests in connection with these protests, or did you know that at the time?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And weapons-related arrests in Ottawa?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Well, there’s, there’s been some evidence about that and if that’s the case, that would be the first time you learned about that, too?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We’ve heard evidence about protesters surrounding police and bylaw officers who were trying to do their jobs; is that something you knew was going on at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
No. And this document was introduced into evidence yesterday by my friend, Mr. Diana. But no one spoke to it, so perhaps we’ll pull it up. It’s OPP00001819. It’s a OPP Intelligence Report for February 14th. And if we could please scroll down to page 2. Just -- sorry; the very first paragraph there. And February 14th, of course, that’s a big day. That’s the day that the Emergencies Act invocation was announced by the Prime Minister, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the first bullet point there says: “…Ottawa Police Service identified an online video in which a driver at the blockade had made inflammatory statements referencing violence, such as using a truck as a weapon. The video also showed him displaying a protective vest, which he claimed would stop an armour-piercing round. He claimed that [it brought] that he brought it with him to protect himself, and that he had worn it at the blockade....OPP Field Officers have spoken with this male and his truck has been positioned in front of Chateau Laurier since the beginning of the protest.” And I take it that’s new information for you as well?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You’ve -- you’ve testified in this Commission that you had to believe everyone who was getting involved was doing so for the right reasons; that they were joining with the best of intentions, and these are at least some examples of people who maybe didn’t have the best of intentions, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in the various press conferences and press releases that you were involved in and that were being put out in the name of the Freedom Convoy; the message was repeatedly being communicated that the convoy was here to stay in Ottawa until the mandates were lifted, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
As long as that took, was the messaging?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you testified, both yesterday in response to questions from Mr. Champ this morning, about the deal that -- the exchange of letters that you engaged in with Mayor Watson. And I understand the broad strokes, he sent a letter to your team, with the assistance of Mr. Wilson you sent a letter back, or a letter was sent back in your name, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let’s pull up that letter. It’s HRF00000045. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
While we’re waiting -- oh, it’s there, but while we’re waiting for that, why did the letter go in your name; do you know?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And the letter that’s written in your name, if we just go down to the -- sorry; a little too far -- third paragraph, starts, “We have made a plan.” And you write, or the letter says: “We have made a plan to consolidate our [best] our protest efforts around Parliament Hill. We will be working hard over the next [40] 24 hours to get buy in from the truckers. We hope to start repositioning our trucks on Monday.” And that’s worded that way because at that point the best that you could offer the Mayor was efforts to get buy- in from the truckers, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And after these letters were released publicly, we heard from Mr. Dichter in his testimony, and I believe you testified, that you knew at the time from him, that he had received many, many, many reactions on social media from those who were unhappy with this deal, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. You also were aware that Pat King had immediately put out his own messaging undermining this deal, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it was important to you, I take it, to make clear that what had been agreed to was nothing more than moving the trucks out of the residential neighborhoods, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You, at that time, would not have put your name on any letter that agreed to a meeting if it meant you had to force protesters to pack up, end their protest and go home, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Maybe I’ll do it a little differently. The understanding you had with Mayor Watson was that you’re going to make best efforts to help get the trucks out of the residential neighborhoods.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then he would sit down with you for a meeting.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were not going to agree to a meeting if it meant you had to tell all those truckers, “Get out of Ottawa, end your protest; go home”?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You did not, and you would not have agreed to a meeting with the Mayor if the condition for that meeting was that you and other leaders would have to tell the protesters, “Get out of Ottawa, go home, end your protest”?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you messaged this deal, you remember Mr. Wilson drafted up the Freedom Manifest that was going to be used to help communicate to the truckers what exactly they were being asked to do ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- and what the deal was with the Mayor? Right. And so let’s pull that up, that’s HRF00001285. This is a document you had reviewed, and you agreed with it.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in the fourth paragraph, what you’re communicating here is: “We have to stay in Ottawa for the long-haul to reach our destination. Just like we do every day with our routing logistics, we have to plan for the road ahead.”
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s what you and Freedom Corp. were saying to explain the deal to the protesters; that going along with what was being asked, moving those trucks out of the residential core to other areas in Ottawa, was a step necessary to make sure you could continue your protest for the long haul; correct?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Superintendent.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrea Gonsalves, and I am one of the lawyers representing the Government of Canada in this Inquiry. I just want to begin by going back to the information you received, I guess it was late, you had many late nights, so late night on February 9th as to the state of play in Windsor when you were assigned the role of Critical Incident Commander. And in response to questions from Commission Counsel, you'll recall that he pulled up the bullet point email that you sent to the two deputies.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And one of the concerns that was raised with you early on, I gather, was the dynamics of the crowd that was engaged in the protest activity; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Under your direction, PLT teams became engaged early on trying to identify leaders; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But as you understood from the PLT teams, the protesters were disjointed, disorganised I think were your words; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in this kind of a situation, police don't know whether the group will even listen to someone who puts themselves forward as a leader; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And there was -- I understand you spoke about the three groups, there was some infighting among them?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the demands of the group, to the extent they were even known, were problematic.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right? I think I saw in your notes of February 10th at OPP00004543 that the protesters had no desire to leave and wanted to remain until all restrictions were lifted. That was your understanding?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Your bullet point note to the Deputy Chiefs also talked about the crowd being agitated, and that was true at various times through the protest; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In your notes again February 10th, I saw that you described a wilder crowd arriving at night?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's when the drinking and the pot smoking would begin?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. And Inspector Younan described the crowd dynamics as being violent; do you remember that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We heard evidence from Deputy Chief Crowley yesterday, but I just want to confirm, you were also aware from the briefings you received that there had been threats to surround and storm police station?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The tunnel? Right. Officers were swarmed when they tried to arrest the individual whose car jumped the curb?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There had been threats when attempts were made to tow two vehicles prior to your arrival?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You heard about a possible protest at the Windsor Airport?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You heard about a smoke bomb that was set off by demonstrators at one point?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And a bit later on in the piece, but there was a bomb threat called in about a bomb that was behind the police lines; is that correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There had also been threats made to the mayor, his address was posted online. You knew about that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this was all, you would accurately say -- or you'd say this was accurately described as a volatile situation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There -- then you throw into the mix the presence of children; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One of your biggest concerns throughout the piece?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I take it that the concern about the presence of children was based on what officers were seeing actually happening on the ground at the protest site; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Not just information being collected online?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were witnessing it. Yesterday, in questions to Deputy Chief Crowley, one of the counsel for one of the parties pulled up a situation report that was dated 0400 hours that indicated no children were observed on scene. That was 0400 hours on February 12th. Can you explain how that reconciles, if it does, with the information you received of children on site?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You also spoke -- you testified in response to questions from Commission Counsel about the increased risk of counter protests.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the president of the autoworkers' association, who, understandably, they were quite upset by the ongoing blockade of the bridge. Do you recall the words that he used when he indicated that they wanted to come and counter protest?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
M'hm.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. That was on February 11th. OPP00004550, page 21. He said that they intend, "...to come on Monday with 1,000 people to crack heads or bring heavy equipment [and] push them in the river" That's pretty concerning as the Critical Incident Commander; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And as time wore on, local residents are becoming more vocal in their opposition to the protest. I understand you were briefed at one point on counter protesters intending to damage protest vehicles.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Recall that? You spoke about the injunction that was ordered by Chief Justice Morawetz of the Ontario Superior Court on February 11th, and I understand your view is that although this was one of the tools available, it was not particularly useful.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Similarly, the February 11th provincial declaration of a state of emergency, I understand from your notes that a few protesters may have left, but it also caused others to dig their heels in; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then the third piece that happens on February 11th is the letter from the Solicitor General to Commissioner Carrique that was distributed to protesters. And I just want to confirm, you testified in response to Commission Counsel's questions that you had been made aware of a similar letter that would be handed out to protesters in Ottawa; you recall that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Did you understand who that letter would be coming from?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that's because your focus, of course ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- was Windsor.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that letter from the Solicitor General does ultimately get handed out to protesters at the blockade site in Windsor?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it had no effect either. They refused to leave; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Disappointingly, but that really proved to be the end point to possible engagement. It had been tried and it had failed; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, we just need ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. And there was a lot going on across the province at the time that you were dealing with the situation in Windsor, a lot of protest activity; fair?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We know that the Windsor Police response involved units not only from OPP and Windsor Police, but you also spoke about London, Hamilton, Waterloo, I think?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Perhaps some other municipal police services or does that cover it?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were told that Windsor was your priority; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you were certainly well aware that there were ongoing and expected demonstrations and blockades across the province?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I saw through your notes this reference to a ripple effect. Am I understanding, Superintendent, that you saw the convoys and the blockades in the various locations as being connected in the sense that they couldn't be managed or approached in isolation from a policing perspective?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were aware, or certainly alive to the concern that what happened at one site could well have impacts at others?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. Now after the 11th, everything, fair to say, had been tried and the time had come for the operational plan to be implemented; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it ultimately succeeds in fully clearing that blockade on Sunday the 13th; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The vehicles were towed. One thing I didn't hear come out in your evidence in-Chief, but I saw in your notes, OPP00004544 at page 14 that bomb threats had been made to the tow operator. That was AMPM Towing; is that right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And fair for me to say that even after the operation had successfully cleared the blockade, you were deeply concerned about maintaining that road clear; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was your single biggest concern, in fact, was maintaining the hold, somewhat precarious hold on Huron Church Road; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I saw in your notes -- perhaps we could turn them up, OPP00004556 at page -- it's stamped page 16, but I think in the electronic document it would be page 17. Yeah, right there is good. And I see fourth line down, "Now we have to maintain it - May have groundhog day -- could be groundhog day - have to be on high alert." What did you mean by it could be Groundhog Day?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this ongoing risk that the protesters would return and resume the blockade, I take it that your concern was informed not only by what you saw in Windsor, but your experience with these ongoing slow roll protests even going back to January?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And as the POU operation loomed in Ottawa, you made clear that you couldn't spare resources from Windsor to assist with that; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And in fact, after the blockade was cleared on the 13th and the bridge reopened on the 14th, I understand there were threats to block the tunnel. Those threats came in very shortly after the bridge was cleared?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You mentioned the 15th there was a convoy of vehicles believed to have been travelling to Windsor that was intercepted?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
On the 16th, if we could pull up OPP00000209? And scroll down, please. Just pausing there. Your -- this is an email dated February 16th and we see your name there, Superintendent?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Keep scrolling down. And this is an email communicating to you and others the most recent updated PLT messaging that incorporates both the federal and provincial emergency orders. You recall receiving that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you're aware, in any event, of the needing to get out PLT messaging of the two emergency -- the levels of emergency orders; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Including what we see in the first paragraph in black, "Persons travelling to any other unlawful protest sites to participate in or support the unlawful demonstration can be charged." And that is the PLT messaging being put out to deter protesters from going to sites where blockades might be resumed or renewed; yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right, what the consequences are.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Exactly. So you also mentioned the Facebook chat about protesters heading back to Ambassador Bridge as the enforcement action was taking place in Ottawa.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let's just pull up OPP00004558. I've come to learn this is what we call fast facts.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is pages 92 and 93. Let's just start at 92. Scroll down, please. A little bit more. There we go. The bullet point towards the bottom of the page, private chat on Facebook by group by the name of Windsor Convoy for Freedom. "...all police are in Ottawa so let's take the bridge back."
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That was a concern, and there's another one on the next page. I don't have to take you there. And, of course, Superintendent, you testified before about the concern of the -- presented by counter protesters, the volatility if we have these two sides colliding; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that concern also would have arisen if yet another blockade popped up in Windsor after it had been cleared; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it's because of these concerns that you planned for the gradual rather than the sort of immediate demobilization in Windsor; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In fact, OPP POUs were not removed from Windsor until February 24th as I understand it?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that's -- you understand that's after the federal government had revoked the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we saw in your response to questions from Commission Counsel the last intersection was planned to reopen on March 13th on your advice?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I understand from Deputy Chief Crowley that WPS maintained a perimeter as late as March 28th? You understand that, or you said you weren't sure?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And given all of the concerns and the economic impact of that bridge being closed down, not only in Windsor but in the entire region, you understood that it would be appropriately prudent and cautious to keep these measures in place long after it had been cleared; correct?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Because when that blockade was cleared on the 13th or the 14th, you just had no idea whether it would fall into the hands of protesters again; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Good morning, Mayor Willett.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
My name is Andrea Gonsalves, and I’m one of the lawyers representing the Government of Canada in this Inquiry. Thank you for being here today. I just have a few questions for you. And I want to start by talking about the port of entry at Coutts. And I understand on the other side of the border is the town of Sweet Grass, yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. That port of entry, you’ll agree with me, is of vital importance to not only the Coutts community, Milk River, the surrounding communities, but also the Province of Alberta and Canada as a whole?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I understand that Highway 4 is the primary access to that port of entry, although there’s one sideroad that’s not suitable for commercial vehicles, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it’s the only designated commercial port of entry in all of Alberta?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. That port of entry allows for the cross-border transport of livestock, agricultural goods, and other imports and exports that are critical to Alberta’s supply chain and the economy; yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you can see, I assume from, really, your front door, the constant flow of trucks that are carrying billions of dollars’ worth of goods north and south across that border.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Now, you’ve told us that you learned early on of plans to -- that there were plans in the works for protesters to engage in slow roll protests in the vicinity of the Coutts port of entry?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And those quickly evolved into plans to actually block the highway to the border.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that would have really a two-fold impact on the people of Coutts, both their access north into Milk River and the amenities there; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
As well as south down across the border. And so I would expect this raised some alarms for you as Mayor of this village?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And you acted quickly to communicate to residents how they could best prepare themselves; right? You sent out that little notice.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. It's COU00000001. I don't think we need to pull it out unless you want to look at it. But you were trying to best equip your residents for the unknown of what was going to come; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that notice included advice like pretending that they live in a big city?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
What did you mean by that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were folks coming in that nobody knew ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- and you were concerned that that might pose a safety and security risk to the people of Coutts?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And another step you took in the early stages was to reach out to provincial -- the provincial government; yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We saw in your examination by Commission Counsel the January 27th email that you wrote to Solicitor General Savage to advise of the plan to protest. Do you recall that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And one of the things you mentioned in that email you raised the possibility of the situation being dealt with using Alberta's Critical Infrastructure Protection Act. Do you remember that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I understand that was raised on January 29th in a letter you sent to the Minister of Justice, and on January 30th in an email to Premier Kenney. Do you recall those communications?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I'll just note for the record, but we don't have to pull them up, it's COU00000005 and COU00000006. And in your understanding, that legislation was really purpose built for this kind of thing?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Now, you have spoken a bit about the disruptions that the blockade of the highway caused for the people of Coutts. And I just wanted to pull up some photos. It's PB.NSC.CAN00008500_REL.0001. You mentioned that you did travel to the protest sites on occasion. I just want to confirm that these photos reflect or are similar to what you recall seeing when you were there.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. The whole thing? PB.NSC.CAN.00008500_REL.0001. And we'll begin, please, at page 4. Now, this is an RCMP document, so I wouldn't expect you've seen the document before, it's just the photos. Is that a picture of the blockade at Coutts the best you can recognise? Or up on Highway 4?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We'll just make that a little bigger there.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The Milk River end of it. Okay.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And what we see there, though, is the -- there are trucks parked in the median between the two directions of the highway?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's a slow roll.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let's go down to page 7, please.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's Coutts? Okay. And page 9.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, and let's go to page 10, please. Sorry, it's not the one I wanted. The tray 29. Are you able to place that one? That may be Checkpoint 10.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If you don't recognise it, that's okay, we'll ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- have others.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. That's okay. It may be further down the highway than you were able to make your way to.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, you discussed your interactions with Corporal Curtis Peters.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we have those text exchanges at COU00000011. In one of your text exchanges you spoke -- you asked him to speak to the school bus driver. I just wanted to be clear on this. Children from Coutts attend school in Milk River?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in this text message, you're explaining that the weather is supposed to turn bad, and you were concerned about her travelling on the highway and folks having to navigate the field to drop off and retrieve their kids. Can you just explain that concern?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You also mentioned in your text to Corporal Peters that folks on home care in Coutts had not been visited since the blockade started.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that was one of your concerns.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I want to pull up, please, COU00000002. This is a text exchange you had with Bill Graveland. And that’s who?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Bill Graveland?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we go to page 3, please? Just scrolling down there. Okay. Stop there. In the first blue box, your test says: “Morning Bill. The more things change the more they stay the same. You need to find someone in a protected position to call these guys what they are, Domestic Terrorists. Won’t be me. They are right outside my window. I would be strung up, literally. Just a thought.” Why did you describe the protestors as domestic terrorists?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You felt they were terrorizing people by their behaviour?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And if we go down to page 4, if we could scroll down a little bit more? Just pause there. Sorry, again a little bit further down. H’m. My note may be off. There’s a text where you -- if we could just go back up? Let me try again. Up a little more. Yeah. Okay. I’m not seeing it. There’s a text in this collection where you say that: “A more extreme element has moved in and I am concerned about the final outcome.” Does that sound familiar to you?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. In your interview summary, you spoke about a sermon delivered on February 3rd at the Smuggler’s Saloon by a Pastor Artur Pawlowski.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And he -- have you seen that sermon? Whether ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Could we please pull up PB.CAN.0000 -- hope this is right -- 1845_REL.0001?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I hope so.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. Yeah. While we’re digging that up, that sermon, I understand, was delivered on a day when MLA Hunter had told you he had negotiated a deal with protestors to open up one lane of traffic? Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in a text message to Minister Sawhney, you described this sermon as being inciting?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Inciting.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And in your interview summary, you said that it strengthened the protestor’s resolve. Do you recall that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I’m hoping we can just watch ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I want to come back. You told us that you also received a death threat, other threats, and that a truck was parked outside your house taking photos of it; correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And it’s fair to say that as time is going on, frustration is increasing, as is concern over how this may end; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And your efforts to engage higher levels of government were focused really on the Province of Alberta?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Did you ever receive any explanation for why the Province did not make use of the Critical Infrastructure Protection Act, as you had suggested?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And I now have the correct reference for that video. It’s RE -- sorry, PB.CAN.0000.135 -- 1835, 1835. And Mayor, while we’re waiting for that to be pulled up, in the few minutes I have left, you’re aware that what was going on in Coutts was not isolated; right? There were also border blockades ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- at the port of entry at Emerson, ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- Ambassador bridge in Windsor, ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- Pacific Highway near Surrey, B.C., ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- of course the occupation of the City of Ottawa. And -- video ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One eight three five (1835). Yeah. And you said earlier, I thought I heard your evidence that in some respects, it was a typical demonstration, but of course, as time went on, you wouldn’t describe the Coutts Border Blockade as being a typical demonstration?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Oh, is that ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
No.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Mr. Shiroky.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you. I think I can do the rest of my questions and come back to that. And of course, you’re aware, Mayor, that ultimately search warrants were carried out the morning of February 14th?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And a cache of weapons and body armour was seized?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there were a number of arrests made; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you were informed, in addition to these arrests, an attempt was made by a vehicle to ram a police vehicle?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Again, we don’t have to pull it up while Mr. Clerk is doing me another favour, but the email to you about those arrests is COU00000453. And even with those arrests, I think I understood your evidence that it took some time for the protestors to clear out?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And that was after the Emergencies Act had been invoked; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned in your witness summary, you understood there were rumours circulating among the protestors that the Emergencies Act would be invoked, and among other things, their bank accounts could be frozen; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Okay. So I’m -- Mr. Commissioner, I’m just waiting for that video to load.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That’s okay. It’s my fault. And we’ll just play from the beginning, not the whole thing but just... (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We can pause that there, thank you. Mayor Willett, is that video of the sermon that Pastor Pawlowski delivered at the Smuggler’s Saloon on February 3rd?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s the video you understand was -- or you’ve described as inciting the crowd?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Those are my questions. Thank you, Commissioner.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner. Good evening, Mr. Di Tommaso. I’m Andrea Gonsalves, one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada in this inquiry. Now, as I understand your evidence, one of your roles in connection with these events, and more generally, is to brief the Solicitor General, yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in particular, on information received from the OPP Commissioner that is of interest or concern to the political level?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And either directly or through the Solicitor General or the Secretary of Cabinet, you would also be involved in briefing Cabinet itself?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I’m speaking more generally. Outside of these matters, is that something you do from time to time either through the Solicitor General or through the Secretary?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So is it fair to say that your role is as a conduit from the police to the political level?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And Commissioner Carrique gave you regular updates on the picture across the province throughout these events, yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
He’s a highly experienced and highly respected police commissioner?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
He’s an advisor to you and the Government of Ontario in respect of these matters?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you accept his advice and his guidance on matters pertaining to his mandate, his field of responsibility; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And in respect of the circumstances that we’re talking about here today, these events, you trusted the advice that he was giving to you and the government, yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, there were a number of protest activities across a vast geographic area in Ontario; correct?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you’ve listed a few. It was not only Ottawa, Windsor, but also Sarnia, Toronto, the Cornwall area, Nipigon out in the Niagara Region; correct?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I gather you shared a concern with Commissioner Carrique about spreading police resources thin across these many areas so vastly spread out, yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And was it one of your concerns that there may have been a deliberate plan on the part of protest organizers to stretch police resources beyond their capacity?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
It appeared that the protest activities were coordinated?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I gather you were aware that among the organizers were former military and police officers, yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
At what stage, okay. And police officer -- former policer officers and perhaps also former military would have a unique understanding of the logistical and resource challenges that police would face, especially the OPP because of the large geographic area it covers, in responding to simultaneous protests and blockades, yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. And I want to -- let’s go to ONT00005153. This is one of your notes. It’s dated February 3rd. And we’ll scroll down to below the black, keep going. Okay, if you could just -- sorry, next page, keep going. Okay, stop there. And this is the call with Toronto Police Chief Ramer that you had that day; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And down at the bottom of the page there, there's three lines, coordinated, tactically trained, dispersed POU assets. You recall Chief Ramer talking to you about that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Fair to say that one of his observations as well is that these protests were being influenced or part of the tactical planning were those with training in tactical operations?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there's another note, ONT00005155. We'll start at page 14, please. This is the 10th of February. If we could keep scrolling down -- page number -- I can't tell if my writing your handwriting or my page number is wrong. Apologies, it's page 3. Yeah, and just under the line that says "Intel" there, if we keep scrolling. You see the third bullet point speaks of former police officers as well as one intel officer. So at least by February 10th, you had that information?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And with former military and police embedded with this group, you would expect they know that police are not necessarily built for a long-lasting occupation, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I understand, Mr. Di Tommaso, that you were a Toronto Police Service officer for many years?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so given your own policing background, this would have been front and centre in your mind?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If we go down -- I think it's page 20 -- got my reference right -- I'm not seeing it. I'm going to come back to that. Now, because these protest activities were connected, I take it another concern you had is that activities at one location could have effects in other areas across the province, yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And if the police and government authorities didn’t get it right in their response at one location, that could have an impact throughout Ontario, yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And indeed, in other parts of Canada?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And are you aware, sir, that the OPP had, in fact, identified the potential that there was a deliberate plan to stretch law enforcement among the protest organizers?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Was that information that you passed on to the political level?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, you've given some evidence of a call that you attended between officials from Ottawa and Canada on February 6. Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we're going to pull up the notes ONT00000311. And in participating in this call, you understood that both Ottawa and the federal government were eager to have the province come to the table to talk about the protest in Ottawa, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You were provided with important updates about the situation in Ottawa on this call?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you would agree that things were volatile and evolving rather quickly?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I take it you briefed -- and I apologize if you said this in response to questions from Commission counsel -- but you briefed Minister Jones on the information that was conveyed to you in this call?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. But you likely would have passed on to her at least the information that stood out to you as being important for her to know?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And Commission counsel took you to the comments of NSIA Jody Thomas at the end of the document. I'd like to go there as well. It's on the very last page. And again, she had put to you or she asked you would the province be looking to the federal government if this protest was happening outside of the City of Ottawa, for example, in Kingston. You took from this question that certainly, NSIA Thomas thought that the province was looking to the federal government to respond to what was going on in Ottawa.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, sorry, but before we get to your response, I'm asking about what you understood from her question. Did you understand from her question that she thought the province was looking to the federal government to respond?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And yet, you understood that the federal government was trying to get Ontario to a tripartite table with Ottawa as well as itself, the federal government, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. But Canada was trying to get that done at the minister's level. You understood that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes. You've also told us that Canada, in particular, through the RCMP, was providing appropriate support and resources to OPS, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you testified about this statement in response to questions from Commission counsel, you also -- you said that you felt it was not aligned with Deputy Minister Stewart's comments about the federal government having a role in finding interlocutors. You remember giving that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And did I take your evidence correctly that you understood that Deputy Minister Stewart had made that comment in the context of the names that we see higher up on the page there, Murray Sinclair, Bob Rae, Louse Arbour.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So -- and could we just scroll down a little bit more please? Yeah, just -- and so you're not talking about the comment there that came from Chief Peter Sloly?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And he also lists Ontario there, correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in your response to the NSIA -- if we could go back to the end on page 9, please, your response was to refer to the protest and encampment being a movement against the federal mandate on trucks and that they came to Ottawa from across the country for that purpose. In making that comment, Mr. Di Tommaso, were you speaking on your own behalf, or was that Ontario's position at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So that was not Ontario's position?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you referred in both your interview summary and your evidence earlier today to an MOU between the City of Ottawa and the Federal Government with respect to policing the streets adjacent to the Parliamentary Precinct.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I'm somewhat confused as to what that MOU is. You've also testified to your clear understanding that OPS is the police of jurisdiction on Wellington Street and other city streets around the Parliamentary Precinct; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Are you by any chance thinking of the Nation's Capital Extraordinary Policing Costs Program?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So if this memorandum is in existence, it's not something you've ever seen before?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now you also gave a few reasons why -- and this is in your interview summary, but I believe they were echoed in your evidence earlier today, you say that there were -- it was open to the Federal Government to take a number of possible responses to the protest. You recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So one of the possible responses you raised there was meeting with protesters; yes?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you referred to not only Deputy Minister Stewart's interest in that, but also OPP Inspector Marcel Beaudin?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Have you seen, have you listened to or read Inspector Beaudin's testimony at this inquiry?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Well, he certainly has given evidence that there were a variety of challenges to PLT engagement in the Ottawa protest, and I take it that wouldn't surprise you given everything you know in your own policing background?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. For instance, extremely fractured and disorganized leadership?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Objectives that were unrealistic, undemocratic, unconstitutional; yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The crowd was constantly shifting with new convoys coming and going over the course of the weeks?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you accept those would all be challenges to engaging in a meaningful -- in a way that would meaningfully reduce the size of the protest; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If we go to your notes at ONT00005155? Page 10, please. Down towards the bottom half of the page. Keep going. Pause there. So the second bullet point, as I read it, "What can Feds do from federal government perspective?" And then below that, "Recommend to identify people to sit down with protesters, six groups. PLT to go to six groups. Condition to leave and..." (As read) What does it say after that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
"...then meeting." So you understood there were at least six distinct groups that would need to be negotiated with in Ottawa; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now we understand from your evidence and others that on February 11th, the Solicitor General provided a letter to Commissioner Carrique that was intended to be distributed to the protesters in Windsor?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that letter offered a meeting with protest leaders if the protest was dispersed, they went home and denounced the protest; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you understood that that letter was unsuccessful, it had no impact on the protest in Windsor; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You're aware that the protest group in Windsor also had fractured, disorganised leadership?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You would defer to the Critical Incident Commander and her evidence on that point?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. Aware that they similarly had unrealistic or at times different and confusing demands?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And certainly, on February 11th when the Province's offer was rejected, the Critical Incident Commander in Windsor considered that any further efforts at negotiation were no longer an option?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. But again, you would certainly defer to her assessment of the situation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then there was the February 13th exchange of letters between Mayor Watson and Ms. Tamara Lich, where there was an offer by the Mayor to meet with protesters provided that trucks were moved out of the residential streets in Ottawa to Wellington Street or elsewhere. You're aware of that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you're aware that that exchange of letters did not bring any sort of an end to the protest in Ottawa?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And are you aware that as of February 14th, the OPP's own assessment was that there was really no longer any path to clearing the protest in Ottawa through negotiation or any way to do it with the protesters leaving voluntarily?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sure. It's OPP00003732. February 14th, Operational Intelligence Report. Have you seen these kinds of reports, Mr. Di Tommaso?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Go down to page 38, please. Keep scrolling. There's the assessment heading there. And if you start to read, I will start to read from the third line down, "Owing to the scope, nature of the conflict and duration of the Ottawa Freedom Convoy occupation, there is no clear pathway toward reaching a satisfactory resolution that would see the protest group voluntarily end their action and depart the Ottawa area." (As read) You see that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you would accept that assessment by the OPP?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So the second reason that you gave, or the second response that you suggested that the federal government could have taken to deal with the protest is to modify the federal vaccine mandates. You remember saying that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you also understand that at least some of the protesters were demanding that all vaccine mandates be dropped; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that would include mandates outside the jurisdiction of the federal government, that are in provincial areas of jurisdiction; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There was nothing the federal government could do about those?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the Government of Ontario would not find it acceptable to capitulate and change its policies because a group of protestors chose to occupy a city; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I would put to you, sir, that Ontario would find that sort of thing undemocratic and unacceptable?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it may well encourage and embolden this kind of behaviour whenever groups disagree with government policy?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. The third reason you gave is that -- or the third, sorry, proposed response that you suggested the Federal Government could have taken was to provide the necessary resources for a police response; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I think we can agree that based on your earlier testimony, you accept that the RCMP did that? It provided the resources that were requested and required; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I understand ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Understood, sir. So I’d like to go, please, to ONT00005152. Okay I’ve got the wrong notes. Let me try that again. Sorry, it’s 5154. You attended a meeting at the officials level with the City of Ottawa and the Federal Government on February 8th? Remember that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
These are your notes of that meeting. If we scroll down? Starting on page 2. Sorry, keep going. It’s page 4. And I take it, sir, you understood from this meeting in particular that Ministers Blair and Mendicino wanted a three-way discussion with Ottawa and the Solicitor General?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. If we go to the top of the next page, please? You were advised that the Federal Ministers were very focused on three levels of government coming together?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That’s show or share?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Show. Okay. Thank you. And if we move down to the next page, please. This is an update being provided to the attendees at the meeting by Peter Sloly. And under the heading “Media in next hour”: “Minor children embedded in red zone…” (As read)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
“…ability to attack is predicated on safety of women and children.” (As read) Right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so that would be information that’s troubling to you from a public safety perspective?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The Federal Government did convene tripartite calls among Ottawa, Ontario, and Canada on February 7th, 8th, and 10th, you’re aware?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you’ve testified that Ontario, and specifically Minister Jones, was invited to attend and didn’t do so; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If we could pull up SSM.CAN.00000086? Scroll down, please. And the fourth bullet there: “commitment by ON to have Minister Jones participate in the tripartite meetings, starting today…” You’re aware that such a commitment was given?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Are you aware, sir, that Premier Ford himself told Minister Mendicino on February 9th that he, Premier Ford, would tell Minister Jones to participate in the tripartite table?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. We don’t need to pull it up, but my document reference for that is SSM.NSC.CAN00002832. Now, you referred to the discussion between the Prime Minister and Mr. -- sorry, Premier Ford on February 9th. You said you did not participate in that call, you did not listen in?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But you understand that in that call, both leaders agreed to -- that there was a need to work together in resolving these protests; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you testified about the State of Emergency that was declared by Ontario on February 11th.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the Ontario definition -- or the definition of emergency in the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act in Ontario, an emergency means a situation or an impending situation that constitutes a danger of major proportions that could result in serious harm to persons or substantial damage to property. And it goes on from there. And it was your assessment that that definition was met by February 10th; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let’s pull up WIN00002249. Are you familiar with this report on Ontario’s declared provincial emergency?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll down to the bottom, please? I think it’s all the way on page 4. Yeah. There’s a section there on why the Emergency Order was necessary and essential. And I take it you agree with and endorse what’s written there; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes, sure.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And Ontario’s State of Emergency continued all the way through until February 23rd; right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you ---
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Some period of time beyond the 23rd?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And do I have it right that this -- that the continued operation of the Orders and the continued State of Emergency were because of that continued threat that you testified that blockades would reappear, the bridge would be blocked again, et cetera?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let’s go to OPP00004580. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
These are Comm. Carrique’s texts to you. And, again, we’ve established that Comm. Carrique is on the right and you are on the left; yes?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right. He’s green because these are his texts. And it was primarily by text that he was providing you with these regular updates on the situation, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we go to page 98, please.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
How am I doing for time? Another five minutes, if you don’t mind, Commissioner.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And this is the end-of-day status report that he’s giving to you on February the 12th, right? This is after Ontario declared its State of Emergency?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah, let’s scroll down, just so we can see the date.
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And these time stamps, as have been covered earlier, are five hours ahead of Eastern time because of the UTC; you understand that?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Oh, a.m., that’s right. Late night on the 11th.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes, thank you, Commissioner. And so this the day that Ontario declares its State of Emergency, and if we scroll up, there’s protest activity in Windsor, Bluewater Bridge on the Highway 402, obviously Ottawa, Toronto, Niagara, there's activity in Northwest Region, if we scroll down, and there's other. And that’s among the information that you were considering when you said things are escalating, State of Emergency is appropriate, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then if we go to page 121, we have the update. Again, scrolling down, this is 2:39 a.m. UTC. So late night on the 13th. And I won’t go through it all, but you understood from this very detailed report that there was widespread protest activity, not only in Ontario but also nationally, which we see if we scroll down. Correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And Mr. Di Tommaso, you testified that you did not attend the First Ministers meeting that the Prime Minister convened with the provincial and territorial leaders on February 14th, right?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But we have notes indicating that at that meeting, Ford stated that he supported the Prime Minister with respect to invocation of the Federal Emergencies Act 100 percent, okay?
-
Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
My question is that wouldn’t surprise you, that the Premier expressed his full and complete support for the invocation of the Emergencies Act on that meeting?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. I think I’ll step down there. Thank you, Commissioner, for the extra time. Thank you, Mr. Di Tommaso.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, if it's all the same to you, I would probably benefit from the break to just tighten up my examination a little bit, but I could also go, if that's your preference.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner. For the record, I am Andrea Gonsalves, counsel for the Government of Canada. Mr. Ossowski, you mentioned in your testimony that the impacts of the blockades in the protest activity were coast to coast and the situation was escalating and unpredictable. Do you recall that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you testified that there were official service disruptions at three ports of entry, Emerson, Ambassador Bridge, and Pacific Highway?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Right.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And at the Pacific Highway, it was in fact, two times there were border alerts issued, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the second one was after the Government of Canada had invoked the Emergencies Act on February 19th, right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And there was then the service suspension at the Coutts port of entry. But is it accurate to say that the impacts were experienced beyond just these service disruptions and the service suspension and at other ports of entry?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You mentioned in your evidence in response to Commission counsel's questions the delays, the added travel distances and times of having to divert to other ports of entry, that this created problems in particular for just in time supply chain, manufacturers, as well as for perishables or livestock.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We have heard some evidence that at some ports of entry, there were alternate roads, in some cases, gravel roads. Were those a viable option for commercial traffic looking to cross the border?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Let's go to SSM.MSC.CAN00000050. This is the CBSA sitrep as of February 12th, so that’s the Saturday of the third weekend, 3:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And if we just scroll down, we see reports of activity at Cornwall. Mr. Ossowski, I understand that the port of entry at Cornwall is particularly complex jurisdictionally; is that correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so the members of that First Nation live on an island that is between the Canadian side where the port of entry is located, and the US side; is that accurate?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And for members of that First Nation, then, if they want to access any services on the mainland on the Canadian side, they have to pass through the port of entry.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so a disruption to that port of entry would be particularly problematic for that community.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then also on February 12th there are incidents being reported at Lansdowne, which I understand is in the Thousand Islands area?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Ambassador Bridge, Peace Bridge -- let’s scroll down -- Sarnia, Blue Water, Emerson, Coutts, Pacific Highway. And then there’s a table there of upcoming protest events that are ongoing, confirmed, and unconfirmed.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Ossowski, does that help illustrate the coast-to-coast dynamic that you testified about earlier?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And did the protests and slow rolls and blockades near ports of entry stop on or before February 14th, or did they continue after?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we can look to the details of that in the chronology in the CBSA Institutional Report?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You mentioned port hardening measures that were imposed at the time. Are those still in effect?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now, in response to some questions earlier, I understood you agreed with the statement that prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act and the EMRs, CBSA could use the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to stop a foreign national from entering Canada to join an unlawful protest. Do you recall those exchanges?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I just want to be clear; my understanding is that under the IRPA, there must be an assessment made that an individual poses a danger to Canada, or will engage in violent crime when they cross over into Canada. Am I correct on that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And where that assessment is made, it’s not the situation that the CBSA would prohibit entry, but rather it would look to detain the individual?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then there are two options from there: Either to transfer the individual to the police of jurisdiction to handle concerns about future crime; that’s one option.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Or CBSA could prepare an Inadmissibility Report on security grounds under IRPA and then that would trigger the inadmissibility process before the Immigration Board; that would be the other option?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And both of those entail delay and expenditure of resources that is significant?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So it’s not a situation of being analogous to the EMR provisions that create a direct back power where the individual could simply be denied entry.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You testified that CBSA collected information from open sources, including social media in relation to the convoy protest.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And based on the information that was available to you, did you understand that there were connections between the Ottawa protests and the border blockades?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So let’s go to PB.CAN.00001317. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is an email from Lynne Lamarche, who’s with the CBSA?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And if we scroll down, she discusses reports this morning from information received by BIS operations. What’s BIS?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And pasted there is information received from the public by email, and we see where it’s shaded in the first bullet: “In Alberta, those who cannot go to Ottawa are being encouraged to block the Coutts border and not move until the demands in Ottawa are met.” And so is that the sort of information that you’re discussing when you said about energies feeding each other?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let’s go to PB.CAN.00001523. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
This is a CBSA Prairie Region Intelligence Alert, and if we scroll down they’re reporting on some information about a group that intends to stay at the Coutts border, and if we look to right there they’re talking about -- there’s the poster, and it says: “Trucks [and] vehicles all over Alberta [are] planning to head for Coutts, [Alberta] starting Jan 29 and [are] staying there until all mandates and restrictions are lifted.” And did you have any understanding about whether that -- well, in fact, on the left it says: “Sources indicate that the group intends to stay at the border as long as the larger convoy stays in Ottawa.” And did you have any understanding of whether those objectives were similar to the objectives of at least some of the Ottawa protesters?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Your Institutional Report speaks to threats to safety and security, both to CBSA officers, as well as information received by CBSA. I just want to highlight a couple of those, including examples that are referenced. If we go to PB.CAN.00001541? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
This comes from the CBSA Border Operations Centre on Sunday, February the 13th, although I think we’re in a situation there where we subtract the five hours, so it’s the evening of February 12th. And this email, Mr. Ossowski, indicates that: “...the BOC was notified that two emails from [the] same client containing threats to the CBSA as well as to the Prime Minister of Canada were received through the CBSA Contact Us webform.” Am I understanding that’s a online form where individuals can submit?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. The first email, which was on February 7th, says: “We would like to come to Ottawa to support the protest and if you want a war on your people we are prepared to die to stop you. No Border of yours will hold us back! Liberty or Death. You Choose!” I take it this is being reported by the BOC because that’s a matter of concern for CBSA?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the second one, which is sent on February 12th, says: “In the event there is no solution and the Canadian Government continues it’s [sic] destructive path we are prepping to come to Canada to support THE PEOPLE’S FIGHT AGAINST CANADIAN GOVERNMENT TYRANNY! We will donate a Gallows to The People of Canada to Assemble for Justin's hanging.” Again, that was a matter of concern for the CBSA?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Let’s go to SSM.NSC.CAN00000351. (SHORT PAUSE)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is a CBSA Sit Rep February 17th, 1600 hours. So this is a few days post- invocation. And let’s go down to page 4, please. Under that chart. Pausing there. “[February 16th], Border Information Services...is reporting increased activity related to the COVID Mandate protests; email containing conspiracy theories., threats [...] against the CBSA and Law Enforcement agencies from the same phone number and an increase in calls relating to the importation of items such as body armour, ammunition, firearms, and gas masks." And was that report a matter of concern for the CBSA?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
That's not something you see very often at CBSA I assume?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And let's go to OPP00000938. Mr. Ossowski, what is a controlled delivery?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. So if we go down to page 3, this is an OPP document. And it advises that, "At 4 am on the 17th of February [...] CBSA and OPP [...] executed a weapons importation warrant in the York Region [...]. Upon entry to the residence it was discovered [...] the suspect was not present [but] firearms and ammunition were observed located improperly stored in the residence. A 3D printer was located. The POI..." I understand it to be person of interest, "...had ordered parts to complete a Glock style handgun ([...] items seized by CBSA). [...] believed [they may have been --] may have manufactured frames using the 3D printer. Machetes were located at entry doors and antigovernment/police notice was observed taped to the front storm door [...]. The POI is prohibited firearms. Neighbours indicate he is currently in Ottawa." Is that information that you knew at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And if we scroll up, please, to the top of page 2. So I understand that the OPP put out a BOLO, a be on the lookout for this individual?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And it says here, "The phone was just pinged and the location has him within 8 meters of the war memorial..." And that's in Ottawa at the time of the protests?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then if we go to PB.NSC.00004460? This is a email on Okanagan Nation Alliance letterhead sent to the Prime Minister, Premier of B.C., Minister Miller and Minister Mendocino, and this was also copied to you by cc?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, we just need a ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And I understand this is a letter regarding an assault of a Syilx Nation member by protesters at the Osoyoos border crossing; is that correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. I believe, Commissioner, I still have a few minutes. I just wanted to go to a couple of videos. Let's go to PB.CAN.00001800. And we're going to begin at the 2 minute 49 second mark. [VIDEO PLAYBACK BEGINS]
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is -- there's no sound on the video, so I'll just speak. What we're seeing is time-accelerated footage of the backup at the Bluewater Bridge as of February 8th, which is the second day of the blockade in Windsor?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned before, you said at one point, this backup was approximately 10 kilometres long?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We'll let it continue to play while I ask my questions. When we look at a backup of this nature, would this meet the one-hour service standard for processing that the CBSA sets?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And this is, as I said, only one day after the Windsor blockade. You mentioned the difference in the lanes for commercial vehicle processing between Ambassador and Bluewater Bridge. You recall that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so when we look at that footage -- we can stop it there. [VIDEO PLAYBACK ENDS]
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Would you say that Bluewater on its own was a viable solution to the Windsor blockade?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And if the Bluewater Bridge was blockaded at the same time as the blockade in Windsor, what would the impact of that have been?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And are you able to able to comment on how long it would take to work through a backlog of that nature even once the blockades are cleared?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And my last video and last set of questions, PB.CAN.00001802. And we'll begin at the 7-minute 26-second mark. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you testified earlier, Mr. Ossowski, about the activity at the Pacific Highway port of entry?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We can stop that there. Mr. Ossowski, did we see in the video what you were describing of the protest being essentially on the doorstep of the plaza, the POE?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the vehicle that you described military style being painted in camouflage?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you. Those are my questions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, before we begin the cross-examinations, during the examination by Commission Counsel, my friend, Mr. Miller, for the convoy organizers, emailed some documents that he proposes to put to the panel. We weren’t given notice of those in accordance with the rules. In a couple cases, they’re not even in the database yet. And before cross-examination begins, at the very least, I would like an opportunity to review those documents with the witnesses so that they could be properly prepared. Given the breach of the rules, I think that that is appropriate.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yes, that's fine. Thank you very much.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner. For the record, Andrea Gonsalves, counsel for the Government of Canada. Mr. Dea, I’m going to start with you. you’ve been sitting there very patiently and I’m going to make it worth your while I hope. My friend, counsel for the convoy organizers, put to you this afternoon the Stats Can Trade Impact document. Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And in response to one of his questions, you started to say that the Stats Can report is about trade impacts, not economic impacts, but I believe you were cut off before you got around to explaining the difference. Could you explain how those two concepts are different?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And when you prepared your economic analysis and that backgrounder document, did you know at the time how long the blockades and border disruptions would last?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And were you able to project out at what the long-term recovery of those disruptions might look like?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And so if the blockades continued, escalated, we may be moving from a scenario one into a scenario two or a scenario three?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Thank you. Over to you, Deputy. You provided some evidence in response to questions from Commission Counsel about the assistance that Transport Canada -- Transportation of Dangerous Good inspectors provided to the City of Ottawa during the occupation. Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And am I understanding correctly that Transport Canada inspectors have subject matter expertise as to the activities that may amount to infractions of the transportation of dangerous goods -- of the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And to your understanding, what were the concerns with respect to transportation of dangerous goods infractions during the Ottawa occupation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And Transport Canada inspectors provided that assistance when requested by OPS; is that right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Now you've given a fair amount of evidence today about the strategic enforcement strategy, and I just want to go to a couple of additional points. If we could pull it up, it's PB.CAN.00000860. And if we start at the section on communications, which you explained was one of the two components of this strategy, communications and enforcement, is communications something unique to this strategy or is that something that Transport Canada employs more broadly in seeking to obtain regulatory compliance?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
If we could go down to the next page, please? And yeah, just pausing there. So the third bullet point that we see on the screen there says that, "...truck owners and operators should know that, by emergency order in the province of Ontario, can have their driver's licence, plate portion of the permit, or CVOR certificate immediately suspended or cancelled." Now this version of the strategy is February 13th, but is that a component of the strategy that you were seeking to have adopted or pursued in Ontario even prior to their state of emergency?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The letter that came to you from Deputy Minister Leblanc on February the 8th -- let me know if you want to pull it up, but in your earlier evidence, you testified about the explanation that she gave in that letter for not pursuing action under -- or with respect to CVORs. And my question is, did you consider that to be a valid explanation for refusing to use provincial authorities at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that letter refers specifically to the ongoing protest in Ottawa, not the Windsor blockade, which had arisen the day before. Did you have any understanding as to whether Ontario's position was any different with respect to the situation in Windsor?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And turning back to the strategic enforcement strategy, if we continue down, we come to the enforcement section. There we go. And under provincial transportation authorities there, point one says: "Support local law enforcement in managing vehicle flows by, for example, conducting roadside safety and emissions inspection with maximum penalties for infractions..." So my understanding that part of the strategy that Transport was developing included having provincial transportation authorities actually conduct roadside safety and emission inspections as a way to prevent vehicles from travelling to sites of ongoing blockades and the occupation of Ottawa?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And let's go to ONT00005150. This is an Ontario production. It's the Operations Plan of the Ministry of Transportation for the Convoy for Freedom truck protest. Is this a document you saw at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let's go to page 7, please. And under Enforcement Officers, there is a -- the second bullet there says: "Conducting regular enforcement away from highways affected by the planned convoy route at the direction of the site lead. Officers will be directed to conduct area patrol inspections at laybys and and general patrol within the district away from the planned convoy route. Officers will not be involved in any commercial vehicle traffic stops of vehicles that are participating in the convoy/protest unless directed to do so by the site leads." Did you know at the time, Deputy, that MTO was specifically directing its officers not to conduct roadside vehicle inspections of vehicles that were participating in the convoy?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And how do you understand that interacts with what you were trying to achieve through the strategic enforcement strategy?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Let's go to ONT00000311, and to page 6, please. These are notes of a call that I understand you participated in with officials from Ottawa as well as Deputy Minister Mario Di Tommaso on February 6th. Do you recall that call?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And in the words that are attributed to you in these notes, the third sort of hollow bullet point under your name, we see: "An observation he provided that while Wellington encampments may be contained, it is the spiritual source of the protest movement. It is acting a fuel for the engagement of others." Can you just explain what you were trying to convey on that call?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, in your, or in the Transport Canada institutional report... Let's pull it up. DOJ.IR.00000005. There is detailing of various engagements and consultations with other stakeholders and counterparts to deal with the situation. If we could go to page 12, please, beginning at paragraph 46. And so that paragraph describes the consultations that Transport led with -- at the ADM level in connection with the enforcement strategy?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that includes meetings with all of the provincial counterparts who were directly affected by the events associated with what you've described as a national crisis?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the first of those, we understand, was held on February 4th. Do I have that date right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Yeah. And Mr. Cameron, in his examination, took you through the minutes of another of those meetings on February 7th. You recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And then there was another meeting of the Policy and Planning Support Committee on February 8th, and we see that at the top of page 13 of the report?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And there is discussion in the report of additional bilateral consultations with Ontario and Alberta on February 5th, 6th, and 7th?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
We don't need to go to it, but I understand that further down in the institutional report there is discussion of other consultations and meetings by you and other Transport officials, as well as your Minister regarding possible responses to the crisis; right?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And just to be clear, these consultations were not only with the provinces, but also with municipal officials in the areas that were impacted?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
But to the extent they took place, they're set out in the report?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And then I understand there were also consultations with industry associations and business organisations in sectors that were affected.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
One of the things you spoke about in your earlier testimony was that the professional trucking industry was not supportive of the demonstrations and tried to distance itself from it. You recall giving that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I don't know that we need to go to each one, but I do want to put them on the record. There was a letter from the Canadian Trucking Alliance on January 19th, SSM.CAN.00000335. You remember receiving input from the Canadian Trucking Alliance?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
There was communication from the Atlantic Truckers Association on February 1 at SSM.CAN.00000345. You recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
The Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters reached out on February 10th after the blockade in Windsor. Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
SSM.CAN.00000987. And then there was a public statement put out by the Alberta Beef Producers, Alberta Cattle Feeders Association, and the Canadian Cattlemen's Association on February 3rd regarding the protest activity at Coutts. Do you recall that one?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s SSM.CAN.00000945. And then one final one, you -- your Minister in Transport had engagement with the motor vehicle industry?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And that’s at SSM.CAN.0000958, for the record. Sorry, that is a letter from the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturer’s Association of February 8th. If it’s possible to do so, summing up all of the input that was received from these various associations, what were they telling you?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And just returning to the engagements and consultations that you were having, particularly with provincial counterparts, in your evidence earlier, you described mixed reactions, and in some cases, reactions that were cool and reserved. Do you remember that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Through those consultations, did that inform your views as to the effectiveness or not of the coordinated enforcement strategy that you hoped to achieve?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Now, you also gave evidence today concerning the discussions that were taking place around invocation of the Emergencies Act at DMOCC and the IRG, particularly February 12th and the 13th. Do you recall that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you described that -- I think your words were that “We’re really close to significant violence.” You were concerned about how things were building. And you understand that both the Ambassador Bridge and the -- the Ambassador Bridge blockade was cleared, it was reopened and the Coutts arrests had happened by the time the Prime Minister announced invocation of the Emergencies Act on the 14th?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Did you understand those areas, or the national crisis, to no longer be a concern at that point?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And recalling that the 13th was a Sunday and the 14th was a Monday, had you seen a pattern in previous weeks of activity increasing on the weekends and then dropping off during the week?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And what, if any, implications did that pattern have in your mind for a potential fourth weekend without some sort of significant disruption to the crisis?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
You mentioned in your earlier evidence the 2020 rail blockades. And were concerns about a rail blockade something that you had turned your mind to at the time?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I think we saw in the backgrounder, or it appears in the backgrounder, that the products that are largely carried by rail are different from the products that are carried by truck. And so one mode of transportation is not a substitute for the other. They each present their own concerns, if there are blockades. Is that fair?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. In the two minutes I think I have remaining, I just want to touch on the tow truck issue. As I understand, one of the elements of the tow truck strategy is that if a vehicle that’s present at one of the blockades is not in moveable condition, that a mechanic would prepare it for being driven? Is that correct?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And were you aware during these events, of protestors taking deliberate steps to disable their vehicles so they could not be driven away?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the issue with tow trucks was primarily an issue getting access to heavy tows and suitable operators? Is that fair?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And counsel for the Democracy Fund and JCCF put to you that tow services were made available in Windsor through a tow company contracted by Windsor. Is it your understanding that the vast majority of the vehicles at the Windsor blockade were passenger vehicles, not commercial rigs?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And was it your understanding at the time that the OPP did in fact use the measures in the EMR to require tow truck companies to provide services in order to assist in clearing the occupation in Ottawa?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. I think my time is up. Those are my questions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I believe the document that Mr. Vigneault is looking for is TS.NSC.CAN.00200000225.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
In case it assists, there are seven zeros before the one, TS.CAN.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you. Good morning, Commissioner. It's Andrea Gonsalves, counsel for the Government of Canada. The next witness will be Minister of Justice, David Lametti. In addition to being Minister of Justice, of course, the Minister is the Attorney General of Canada, the lawyer to the Government of Canada. And I wanted to put on the record that the Government of Canada continues to assert and maintain all of its claims of solicitor/client privilege in respect of all legal advice and opinions. Mr. Lametti's attendance here as a witness is not a waiver of any claims of privilege by the Government of Canada, which he has an obligation to protect. We will be objecting to and Minister Lametti will be refusing to answer all questions that would delve into areas of solicitor/client privilege. So I just wanted to put that on the record at the front end, and hopefully examinations can be appropriately tailored to keep the objections to a minimum.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I apologize for interrupting, ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- but it’s February the 4th where those bubbles appear, not Wednesday the 2nd.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, I just want to be clear. When you say “Has anybody suggested,” we have to be concerned about Cabinet confidence, as well as solicitor/client privilege. So when you say "anybody", it would be helpful if you specify who you're asking about.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I am concerned that we're going down the road of arguing the case. Minister Lametti is here as a fact witness. There will be a stage to come after this evidentiary portion of the hearing where legal arguments are submitted. The Government of Canada will be submitting detailed legal arguments. And I am concerned that having Minister Lametti on the stand is not the opportunity to be arguing the case.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, the section 58 report is there; it’s in the record, certainly will feature in closing submissions. I’m not sure there’s much to be done about what is or isn’t in the report. It speaks for itself.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner I don’t think that’s an appropriate question. It doesn’t suit the purposes -- fall within the purposes for which Minister Lametti is here to testify. My friend is well aware that you have made a ruling, and this is something to be dealt with through the normal Commission processes, and not through a witness.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I’m going o object to this question. It gets into areas of solicitor/client privilege.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I think that’s an inappropriate question. There are thousands and thousands of documents in the record. It’s just -- it’s unfair to the witness.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, the problem here is that asking that personal belief of the Attorney General of Canada inherently gets into matters of solicitor- client privilege. I object to the question.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Commissioner, again, going to Hansards is something that is frequently done in the course of legal argument to interpret a statute. It’s my submission this is not a matter of fact evidence. This is a matter of argument, which will be done at the end of the case and it’s not a proper line of questioning for this witness.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Again, Mr. Commissioner, my friend’s question is calling upon the witness to interpret what we see in the Hansard. The Hansard is what it is, and beyond that, we’re getting into legal argument on the interpretation of the legislation.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I don't think that that’s a fair question. It's a hypothetical and it's seeking a legal opinion.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I just want to say, when it comes to the position, for the purposes of legal argument, that we’ll leave the matter of submissions at the end of the case.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, Commissioner. And I am advised that the minister needs to go and vote by 3:15. I expect to be done well before that, but just so we’re all keeping an eye on the clock.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay, thank you.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Let’s start with SSM.CAN.00007845. Minister, just to remind you, in a text message to your chief of staff on January 30th, which we’ll put on the screen to refresh your memory, you raised a question about the Emergencies Act. Do you see that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And your testimony in response to questions from Commission counsel was that you're raising it as a matter of prudence. This is the Sunday evening on the first weekend of the protest. Do you start thinking about the Emergencies Act every time there is a protest?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And on January 30th your testifying that it’s a matter of prudence. On what date or at what stage did consideration of the Emergencies Act move from a matter of prudence and a mere possibility to a step that was being given serious consideration by Cabinet?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let's go to SSM.CAN.00007851. And this was a text message exchange with Minister Mendicino that you were taken to by Commission Counsel. You'll recall that Mr. Cameron asked you about your first sentence there, "You need to get the police to move." The exchange goes on to talk -- you say, "And the CAF if necessary." Mr. Mendicino writes, "How many tanks are you asking for I just wanna ask Anita how many we've got on hand" You respond, "I reckon one will do!!" On February 2nd or at any other point were you seriously suggesting that CAF be brought in or that there be tanks brought in to Ottawa to deal with the situation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. You recall questions from Mr. Honner on behalf of the Democracy Fund about the timing of revocation. Let's please put up SSM.CAN.00007902. And, Minister, he put to you the suggestion that but for some concern about getting ahead of the NDP, your government would have continued the Emergencies Act. Do you recall those questions?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you mentioned in your evidence that there were other text messages. This is the text message between yourself and Eric Antoine, February 23rd. Who is Mr. Antoine?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Sorry, I just want to be clear, who is Mr. Antoine?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And in his text message he says on February 23rd, "Our count as of right before the announcement..." That's the announcement of revocation?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
"...was 51 declared yes, 22 declared against and 18 undecided..." Was that the text message you were ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
--- referring to?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And SSM.CAN.00007903. Just to continue -- it just continues where the bottom is that says, "Yea we worked our ass off, but the right and proper thing to do was to revoke as soon as the..."
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Oh, if you recall it being emergency was over ---
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And your evidence is that that's the timing that the government chose for revocation is when the emergency was over?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. And you testified in response to questions from Commission Counsel and Ms. Johnson for the Coalition of Ottawa Businesses and Residents about some of your own observations and experiences in the City of Ottawa during the protests, during the occupation. You call that evidence?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
I want to take you to some online incidents that I understand were directed toward you. And seeing the time available, how many I can come to, SSM.CAN.00007896. And this reads, "You're the fucking real terrorist bud. Too bad this wasn't a few decades ago because you'd already be hanging from a light pole downtown Ottawa for your treasonous crimes against Canadians." And it goes on from there. Is that a direct message that you received over social media after the Government of Canada announced the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Okay. Let's go to SSM.CAN.00007897. And while we're pulling that up, just to be clear, the Government of Canada did introduce invocation for a vote in the House of Commons?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And you spoke to that?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And we see a photo of you in the Commons. There's a caption "motion for confirmation of the declaration of emergency," and there's a response to that, "hashtag assassinate Lametti". And this is another social media message that you became aware of?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
SSM.CAN.00007899.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
This one says, "You and your support structure of corrupt officials need to be drug out into the street and stoned... I think that day is coming for you sooner than you think..." You also received this message over Instagram around the time that the Emergency Act was invoked?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And last one SSM.CAN.00007900. This is a Facebook message. I won't read it all, but, "Time to die David Lametti for peace and security of mankind..." There's a line here, "You[r] death date is overdue udas with bullet to your head, rope around your neck, guts cut open and bled out on the ground..." And then it continues from there. Minister Lametti, were all of these threats reported to the RCMP?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And I don't think we have time to pull it up, but there is an email to that effect, SSM.CAN.00008683. And, Minister, we'll just go to one last document TS.NSC.CAN.001.00000183. Minister Lametti, you have been a Member of Parliament since 2015 I understand?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
And the sorts of threats that we just walked through, there was one more, we don't need to pull it up, but it was a photo of a noose, SSM.CAN.00007898, have you ever experienced anything like that in your years as an MP prior to the events of January and February 2022?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
So on this screen it's an ITAC report of February 22nd, Threats to Canadian Political Figures and Government Locations in the Context of Protests and Emergency Response Measures. Could we please go, Mr. Clerk, to page 2? And there's a heading "Increased Threats to Elected Officials During Protests". And the second paragraph after the redaction observes, "There has been a noticeable increase in threatening behaviour towards members of Parliament and incidents at constituency offices since the beginning of the protests, including a recent fire believed to be an arson and a few minor physical altercations with staff. This threatening behaviour has been primarily focussed on vaccine mandates and the Government's enacting of the Emergencies Act and has been directed at members of all political parties." (As read) Minister Lametti, is that consistent with your experience?
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Thank you, those are my questions.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Commissioner, I need to object to that question on the grounds that it may get into areas of solicitor-client privilege.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Mr. Commissioner, I apologize for interrupting, but the Minister does need to go and vote now, I understand.
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Andrea Gonsalves, Counsel (GC)
Perhaps my friend and I can -- we can continue to deal with this issue in his absence.