John Mather
John Mather spoke 1215 times across 12 days of testimony.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, they don’t appear to be online right now. If they’re listening to this, they can email me and we’ll get them up at a later time. But I think it’s appropriate to move to the next party.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m sorry, Mr. Commissioner. I do want to interject here. Our rules provide that there can be no examination on a statement of anticipated evidence without leave, and I think leave needs to be sought if there’s going to be questions about that.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m sorry, Mr. Commissioner. Again, ----
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Excuse me, Mr. Commissioner, there has been a couple references during this examination to these statements of anticipated evidence, and I think it's important that the nature of those statements get clarified before any questioning continues. Those are statements that are provided to Commission Counsel. They are not attributable to the witness. They are statements of what Commission Counsel anticipate a witness may or may not say. They should -- it is Commission Counsel's view that they should only be questioned upon in extraordinary circumstances, and they shouldn't be serving as the basis for these examinations.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, if we could read the number into the record?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It's not there.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is John Mather. I’m one of the Commission counsel. As the Commissioner indicated, we are now going to enter into evidence a number of documents, and this is something that we expect that Commission counsel will do every week. To provide some context to the public, the Commission has received more than 60,000 documents as part of its investigative process. Commission counsel have identified, and continue to identify, documents that are relevant to the Commission’s mandate. Many of these documents will be entered into evidence as you’ve already seen through the examination of witnesses. They may also be entered into evidence through reports that are filed by the Commission or by institutions that have an interest in the Commission’s proceedings. Given the Commission’s timelines, however, we are not able to introduce and material documents in these manners, and some of these documents, then, will just be entered through this process. These are documents such as affidavits the Commission has received, meeting minutes, situational reports, other standard records and correspondence. On a weekly basis, Commission counsel advised the parties about the documents that they intend to admit into evidence the next week. These are documents that the Commissioner may refer to or rely on his final report and, for this reason, the parties are given an opportunity to object to the admission of any of the documents before they are admitted. Today, we are entering the first batch of these documents. There are 447 documents in total. They include, by way of example, City Bylaws for the City of Ottawa, City Council Motions, Minutes of the City of Ottawa and the Ottawa Police Services Board, and Letters of Request for Assistance relating to the City. As noted, these are documents that the parties have had the opportunity to review and advise whether or not they have an objection and we are admitting those documents over which there was no objection. These documents will be posted to the Commission’s website in the coming days and again, as I noted, this will become a regular part of these proceedings. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Commissioner, they’ve advised Commission counsel that they’re ceding their time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you speak up or turn up the sound a bit? Yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
A few questions arising out of that. One is, it is a document that exists in the party database?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And is it a -- are you able to provide the document ID number?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, it’s obviously within your discretion, but the parties nor Commission counsel have had an opportunity to review the document and see what it is. I’m not sure what it is, but one of the things that we can do is once we know the numbers, have an opportunity to look and see what it is.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Counsel, it may be 4262. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, the next witness is Chris Barber.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Barber.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I am Commission Counsel. Before I begin my questions, I believe your counsel wants to make a statement.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So good morning, again, Mr. Barber. Just so you're aware of the process today, I'm going to ask you questions for approximately the next 90 minutes. When I'm complete, the parties who have requested time will have time to ask you some questions themselves, again, for, depending on how things go, roughly 90 minutes, and we will have a final opportunity to ask you some follow up questions if that proves necessary. Okay?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I want to start with some basic information about yourself. So I understand that you're from Swift Current, Saskatchewan; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you lived in Swift Current?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that you operate a trucking business called CB Trucking Limited. Do I have that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just briefly describe the nature of that business?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's your role with the business?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how many other drivers do you have?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you been in the trucking business?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you operating CB Trucking in January of 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the Commission understands it, Mr. Barber, you were one of the original organisers of the Freedom Convoy that arrived in Ottawa in January of 2022.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it you agree with that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you just have to make sure you speak audibly when give your answer ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- just for the transcript. Thank you. How did you get involved in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall when Ms. Belton first contacted you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you know Ms. Belton before ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What did you come to know about Ms. Belton?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did Ms. Belton -- what was she asking you to do?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say government going too far in some of these mandates, can you explain at that point in time what mandates were concerning you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are you talking about the decision of the Federal Government to no longer exempt truckers from the requirement that they be vaccinated, otherwise they would have to quarantine?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You mentioned that Ms. Belton communicated with you on TikTok. Did I hear that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Perhaps for the benefit of the Commission, and maybe people who don't -- who aren't as familiar with social media, can you explain what TikTok is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to getting involved in TikTok, were you using any other social media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you noted that you attracted a lot of followers. In January of 2022, do you know how many followers you had on TikTok?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thirty thousand. And you know, in -- by the time, you know, in mid-February 2022, which we'll get to, but how did your followers grow at that point in time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So again, prior to Ms. Belton contacting you, can you give us a sense of the sort of content you were posting on TikTok?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you posting at all about COVID-19 ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and public health measures?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How would you describe the nature of those posts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why were you angry?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did the COVID-19 public health mandates affect you personally?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say you lost a lot of drivers, what about -- and I understand when we're talking about public health restrictions we're talking at various levels of government, but what about those restrictions led to you losing drivers?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say as of the 15th, do you mean as of the 15th of January 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so what I understand you to be saying is that the government's decision to no longer exempt truckers from vaccination at -- from vaccination requirements, that was your concern projecting forward.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you lost drivers prior to that in relation to ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- COVID-19?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is there any other ways that the -- that -- again, it doesn't matter the level of government for the purpose of the question. Is there any other way that the public health restrictions relating to COVID-19 affected you personally?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you, yourself, get vaccinated?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you make that decision?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say big carriers, it's my understanding that you, CB Trucking Limited, is an independent company; correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to the Commissioner what it means to be an independent trucker as opposed to a big carrier?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated in your earlier response that your TikTok following grew as you participated in the Freedom Convoy. In terms of discussing the Freedom Convoy and planning the Freedom Convoy did you use any other social media other than TikTok?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Any other social media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I've -- the Commission has seen in some of the documents relating to you that at times you would refer to yourself as an internet troll. Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you explain to the Commission what it means to be an internet troll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you maybe give an example of what that means, you know, when it comes to TikTok, for instance?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Belton reached out to you and began discussing the possibility of a convoy or a slow roll, I take it that was something you were interested in participating in?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And picking up on that last part, what -- at the outset, what were you hoping to achieve by participating in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you politically active before COVID-19?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you an active member of any political party?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One final question about TikTok. We’ve seen information that suggested that in January 2022 you had multiple TikTok accounts. Is that ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you have more than one TikTok account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you were suspended, you would then open another account so you could continue posting.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you find it hard to gain the followers you had when you started with a new account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Ms. Belton contacts you and you said you recall was perhaps early in January 2022 and begins asking you about slow rolls and potentially a convoy. What happened next?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were involved in the early discussions?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll have some questions about the moment, but I think what would be beneficial to the Commission is to understand how -- you know, to the extent you can explain it, how you go from Ms. Belton contacting you, raising this idea and then getting to the point where you’re organizing what becomes a large event. Can you explain sort of how that progressed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was organizing and planning the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there people who were more involved in planning than others?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who was that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in those two weeks, how was the convoy promoted?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you provide some more information?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that Ms. Lich started the Facebook page, as you indicated, in or around January 13th. Prior to that, what promotion had been done about the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had any promotion been done?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It’s the Commission’s understanding that you participated in a Facebook live event on January 13th, 2022. Do you know what I’m referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in that Facebook live event, in attendance were yourself, James Bauder, who you’ve referenced, Ms. Belton, who we’ve spoken about, and Pat King. Does that accord with your recollection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And there was other individuals there who were assisting and planning. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that that video took place prior to Mrs. -- Ms. Lich’s involvement. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And have you reviewed that video prior to your testimony?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And it’s approximately an hour and a half long, and subject to any comments from the parties, what I suggest to do is just read out the document ID and have it entered without showing the video itself because I would run out of time if that had happened. So it is COM00000829. And the Commission has also asked a transcriptionist to prepare a transcription of that video, which I may ask you about later, but again, I’m just going to read out the document ID right now, which is COM00000838. So Mr. Barber, I can take you to portions of the transcript if it will assist, but in reviewing the video, it strikes the Commission that, at that point in time, both Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were active -- were already actively involved in planning routes and promoting the convoy to the people that they were already connected with. Is that a fair statement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder and Mr. King were promoting the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So yes, the Commission’s understanding is Mr. Bauder had a web site through Canada Unity and on that web site there was already route maps and ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- stops and locations. Is that your understanding?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Bauder is expected to testify, and we can ask him more questions about that. So I just want to clarify what you said there. Was -- is it your recollection that that planning was already in place by the time you were connected with Mr. Bauder?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know how Mr. Bauder got connected to you and Ms. Belton?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video from January 13th, 2022, which I’ve already referenced, Mr. Bauder presented a document that he referred to as a Memorandum of Understanding. Do you recall that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of the Memorandum of Understanding before January 13th, 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And just for the sake of the transcriptionist, just if you could wait till I’m finished my question before answering. Just cleaner transcript. So were you aware of that memorandum?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What do you recall Mr. Bauder saying about the Memorandum of Understanding?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if, at that time -- and when I say at that time, I mean January 13th -- if you had an understanding then what Mr. Bauder was hoping to do with his Memorandum of Understanding?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And again, we’re -- we expect to hear from Mr. Bauder and we’ll hear his evidence on it. The Commission understands that one of the things that the Memorandum of Understanding presented was a notion that in respect of the COVID-19 mandates that there -- Mr. Bauder believed that there was not enough time for lawsuits to challenge those mandates and that, in fact, through a piece of law called the Helsinki Act that the -- a group of -- a citizens committee could come to an agreement with the Senate and any mandates they viewed as unlawful would stop. Is that your understanding of, ultimately, what the Memorandum of Understanding meant?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In January 2022, did you have any understanding what Mr. Bauder's roles were with the convoy that he had organized?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the early planning stage, what was Brigitte Belton doing?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King who was on the January 13th livestream, what was he doing?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to January 2022, did you know who Pat King was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how were you first introduced to him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And maybe I'll ask this at this point, prior to the January 13th Facebook livestream, had you participated in any calls or meetings with Mr. Bauder or Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall how you were introduced to Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you first came to understand that Mr. King was promoting the convoy, what did you come to learn about him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to learn anything about his background prior to January 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were meeting Mr. King and Mr. Bauder and Ms. Belton, did you ask any of them about their backgrounds and why they were participating in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At that point in time, did you have any questions yourself about who am I getting -- who am I organizing with and who are these people who are going to assist me in this?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that many people stated goal in terms of the convoy was to end COVID- 19 mandates; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of anyone who participated in the early organization who had a different goal than that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As the convoy began travelling to Ottawa and then after it arrived in Ottawa, do you believe there were people who participated who wanted something more than to end COVID-19 mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you describe why you -- the basis of that belief?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just -- can you provide some more details about that power struggle, what organizations, what they were trying to do and what you did in response?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Canada Unity, that's Mr. Bauder's organization; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to me what the conflict was with Canada Unity?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was Canada Unity doing that you didn't agree with?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at some point, I take it you came to understand what Canada Unity was trying to achieve with the MOU; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you indicated that the conflict with Canada Unity was about the MOU and I'm just trying to understand what about the MOU had -- gave rise to conflict?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who did you speak to about the MOU?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did she tell you about the MOU?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But I -- what did she tell you about what was in the MOU?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- did you have any concerns that the MOU advocated or provided for an undemocratic change of power in Canada?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you take any steps to figure out what exactly Mr. Bauder was trying to achieve with the MOU?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall roughly when that occurred?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what led you to ultimately make a phone call to Mr. Bauder and ask him to renounce it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you say too much highlight and too much spotlight, are you talking about -- I think you characterized it as the rumours that it called for something undemocratic?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What happened after, to your understanding, Ms. Lich called Mr. Bauder and asked him to rescind it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you continue working with Mr. Bauder throughout the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Another group you mentioned in terms of their being -- and maybe this wasn't your words, but I understand a power struggle, is that fair, among groups?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Another group you mentioned was Taking Back our Freedoms?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was Taking Back our Freedoms?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what Taking Back our Freedoms' goals were with respect to the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I think you described there was a level of friction with them; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is there -- did you take any steps -- when you had this group that there was some friction or conflict with, did you take any steps to figure out what their goals or what they were trying to do?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you do?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken already a little bit about Ms. Lich, who I -- as I understand it, your recollection is that she was likely involved around the time of the January 13th livestream, she just did not participate; did I have that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did Ms. Lich become involved in the Freedom Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you ever find out how Ms. Lich got your phone number?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned that Ms. Lich had participated in the 2019 United We Roll convoy.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich phoned you, did you know what that was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you explain to the Commission what the 2019 United We Roll convoy was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Ms. Lich, it was your understanding, was involved in that convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you understand that Mr. King was also involved in that conversation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about Mr. Bauder?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich called you, had you heard of Tamara Lich before?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did you come to know about Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you become aware, in your early conversations with Ms. Lich that she had been -- participated in the Wexit Movement in Alberta and been involved in the Maverick Party?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is it Ms. Lich who told you that, or did someone else tell you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns that, in participating in the convoys, Ms. Lich would be pursuing goals other than mass mandates and maybe -- pursuing political goals of either the Wexit Movement or the Maverick Party?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that something you discussed with Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We expect that there may be evidence that, you know, whether it be Ms. Lich or other people who became involved in the convoy organization, that there was an attempt to use the convoy as an opportunity to pursue political goals that weren’t just about ending the COVID-19 mandates, including political goals that may exist for -- within the Maverick Party or within the Wexit Movement; is that a concern that you have now, looking back?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would you have fought that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Now I’m going to ask you some questions about the process of having trucks begin in British Columbia and drive across Canada and then arrive in Ottawa. First question: Do you have a sense of how many trucks participated in the convoy that you had organized with Mr. Bauder, Mr. King, Ms. Belton, Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever expect that level of participation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction when you saw the level of participation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you expand on that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Could you explain to the Commission how the convoy organization was able to coordinate that movement of trucks to come to Ottawa; how did people know when they -- where they were supposed to be, where the convoy was, what was going to happen to them when they joined the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During that travel who was primarily responsible for all of that coordination you’re talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there any point on the journey to Ottawa where you were concerned that the convoy, you know, might not make it, or something may interfere in the trucks arriving?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it’s the Commission’s understanding, based on some of the documents that your counsel has produced, that people were in contact with the police on a daily basis.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you one of those people?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Again, based on the documents the Commission’s received, we also understand that when the convoy arrived in Ontario, that an OPP escort was there to meet the convoy; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you just provide some more explanation about that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you get into Ontario, I assume the daily contact with the police continued.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did that include daily contact with both the OPP and the OPS, or would -- can you just explain what police services you were...
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you in contact with Isabelle or anyone from the Ottawa Police Service?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you speak with Isabelle prior to the convoy’s arrival in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were speaking with either the OPP or the OPS -- and I’m talking about you personally -- what were you telling them about the convoy’s plans when they arrived in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall having any discussions with any police officers about how long the protest might last?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So prior to that -- prior to that point you’ve referenced, so after the first weekend did you discuss the potential length of the protest with any police officials?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At what point did you realize that the protest may continue for an extended period of time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Prior to arriving in Ottawa, had you personally turned your mind to how long you would stay?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your discussions with either the OPP or the OPS as the convoy was approaching Ottawa, did any of the police services give you direction on where you could park the trucks once you arrived in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that where you ultimately parked?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did -- where did -- I understand that you parked your truck on Wellington Street; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that surprise you to see that there was already large commercial vehicles?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did that surprise you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone from any police service ever explain to you what had changed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone else ever explain to you what had led to the park -- the vehicles being parked in the downtown core as opposed to the parks you identified?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you since learned who was the early arrivals?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I asked you this and I think you’ve confirmed it, but you parked your vehicle on Wellington Street; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After you parked there, at any point in time up until, we’ll say, February 14th, were you given any indication by any police services that you shouldn’t be parked on Wellington and you’d need to move?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did that come as a surprise to you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard evidence from several police witnesses who have been asked questions essentially about whether more could have been done to limit or control the size and scope of the protest in Ottawa in the early days. I’ve heard your answers but I’m just going to ask you one more time; was the police response to the convoy what you were expecting or anticipating when you arrived?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In retrospect, do you think it would have been better had the trucks parked where they were initially designated to park?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why is that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why would have that been better?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I’ve just been handed a note to suggest that both you and I are speaking a little quickly for the interpreters.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I will try to slow down and I’ll ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- ask you also to try to slow down. No, that’s okay. We’re both to blame so it’s okay. So I’m now going to ask you, and we’ve already touched on it a little bit but about what happened with the people who were originally involved in organizing the convoy. We’ve spoken about Mr. Bauder already but I’m going to now ask you about Pat King. And as I understand it, that in or around January 22nd, 24th, in or around that time period, you and Ms. Lich began having discussions about concerns relating to Mr. King. Do you know what I’m talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain to me the nature of those discussions and what the concerns were?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So do you recall what concerns -- what had been reported in that CBC article that caused you concern?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m just going to pull up a document; it’s HRF00001221, and we’ll go to page 2. And while this document comes up, Mr. Barber, this is a document that has been provided by the convoy organizers’ group. It’s a timeline of events that has been provided. So this was provided to us by your counsel. And if we could go to January 24th at the bottom of page 2. And would it be possible to -- yeah, thank you, Mr. Clerk. So you can read the entry that says, “Concerns re Pat King”; do you see them?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So this here says: “Tamara and Chris discussed concerns about Pat king after viewing a tweet with a video making reference to bullets.” Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you -- is this conversation being described here the same conversation we were just talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Does this refresh your memory at all about what the concerns were?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you please explain?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission has seen reports that at some point in time, Mr. King made a comment along the lines of, “This is going to end in bullets”; do you know if that’s what was being discussed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And during this conversation were you also aware that the media was reporting on a video that -- in which Mr. King had made a suggestion that at some point, Justin Trudeau may catch a bullet one day; were you aware of that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember if that was something you knew about during this discussion, or after this discussion did you learn more about what Mr. King had posted?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it says in here in the second sentence: “Chris agreed perhaps Pat should be sent home but there was concern about the trucks Pat brought with him." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was the concern about the trucks?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the concern that if Mr. King was sent home or asked to not participate that his supporters would also stop participating?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we can continue on, the next sentence talks about a -- it says: "Talked to Pat about the Tweet on the roadside..." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was that the conversation you had already described to us?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was -- were you a part of that conversation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then it says, "Following this, a Captains meeting was held in Kenora [and] at the end of the day where everyone expressed concern about Pat King's involvement."
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Yes, thank you. "The decision was made that someone would talk to Pat within the coming days and request that he not attend in Ottawa." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. I'm going to ask you a question about this -- these two sentences, but before I do that, can you just explain what a captains meeting is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it sounds in here like after your initial conversation with Mr. King that concerns continued to be raised by other members of the organisation; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you know if someone ultimately spoke with Mr. King and asked him not to attend in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point did you hear from Ms. Lich or anyone else about whether that conversation had occurred?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. King continued on to Ottawa.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of any resolution having been reached between the people who had concerns and Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you personally concerned about what Mr. King had said previously on social media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you accepted the explanation at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you today still believe that -- do you still accept that explanation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to pull up another document. This is COM00000902. And while we're waiting for the document to come up, Mr. Barber, this is a news article. And we can go to page 3 of the document. This is a news article, and it reports on text messages between yourself and Ms. Lich. And as I understand it, and we will get to this later, when you were arrested the police seized your phone and you no longer have access to the messages on your phone. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I also understand that we expect to hear from Ms. Lich that she also no longer has access to her text messages. You don't need to comment on that, we can ask Ms. Lich about it. But I'm showing you this news article, and as we go through if there's anything in the article that you think is not accurate, and I appreciate you don't have your phone with you anymore, you can let me know; okay? So if we go down, it says, "On Jan. 22, Lich told Barber they need to have 'a very frank discussion' with King, raising concerns about past allegations [with] him. Despite these concerns, Lich also said he was needed by the movement — in [an] apparent contrast to later statements in which the convoy tried to distance itself from King. 'We need him and I don't care about his past but it only takes one,' she said. 'We have to control his rhetoric. Not even threatening to throw snowballs at the parliament (sic).'" Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you remember if this is something that Ms. Lich text messaged you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No reason to ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- say this was not a message she sent you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When Ms. Lich said that the movement needed Mr. King, do you know what she meant by that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree that the movement needed Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it from your answers that, I just want to make sure that I'm fair here, is that you, from what you had learned about what Mr. King had maybe said in the past, the content of those statements didn't concern you because of the explanation Mr. King provided. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concerns, separate and apart from your own views about what Mr. King may or may not have said, did you have any concern about the public image of having Mr. King associated with the Freedom Convoy movement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just explain what you mean by, did you say the ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And what was concerning you about the media's coverage?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you think those attacks were fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than being busy, is there any reason you didn't do more to look into the people who were associated with your convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You say -- this media report says that you texted to Ms. Lich: "'I know he's had issues. I've got skeletons in the closet to (sic)...'" Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall texting that to Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. What were the skeletons in your closet?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At this point in time, was there something in -- was there anything in particular that concerned you about what you had done on the internet?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about things that were unrelated to the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What concerned you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission's understanding that some members of the media identified certain Facebook posts that you had made and had reported on them or tweeted about them. Is that something you were aware of at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And these include Facebook posts that contained racist and anti Muslim comments. Is that a fair characterisation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I expect you may be asked questions about those by some of the parties, and I wanted to give you an opportunity now, if you wanted it, to speak to some of the racist or anti Muslim things you posted.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you change?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things that the media reported on during the convoy was that you had a Confederate flag in your shop in Swift Current; do you know what I'm talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you posted at least one or two Tik Toks addressing that issue; do you recall?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one of those Tik Toks you said that the Confederate flag was -- you explained that you -- I believe you'd purchased it in the United States; do I have that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then you described it as a piece of cloth and get over yourself.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that a sentiment you continue to have?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have the flag in your shop?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you talk about how you've changed, is that an example of something you're doing different?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You've spoken about Mr. King a bit. Once you arrived in Ottawa, did you -- and did you continue to work with Mr. Bauder in terms of the protest activity that was going on in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we've spoken a bit about Ms. Belton. Once you arrived in Ottawa, what was Ms. Belton's role in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we're going to have some questions about Rideau Sussex in a moment. We expect that Ms. Belton may indicate that there's been a falling out between you and her. Is that true?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the nature of that falling out?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What are the different opinions?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up a video, HRF146? And, again, I'll give you some context while it comes up. So this is one of your Tik Toks -- just a moment. And we're going to watch it in its entirety and then I'll have some questions flowing from it.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Clerk. You can pull that down. So I have a few questions arising out of that video. One of the things you say early on is that you want a peaceful protest. And the Commission has seen many instances, and we don't have the time to take you to them all, of where you insist on the protest being peaceful and to the extent there's any sort of suggestion of violence you immediately step in and say this needs to be peaceful. Why was that important to you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And to put that video into a bit of context, you say that this is a message for the convoy that's coming next week, so -- or arriving. And so we understand that that video is taken probably some time in the week of January 23rd; does that sound right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that would have been before you had -- the lawyers had gotten involved and ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- you're beginning to get direction from them; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at that point in time when you're emphasizing the importance of a peaceful protest, did you have a concern that the people who were participating in the convoy might not be peaceful?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So they listened to the rules of the road, I assume you mean on the way to Ottawa; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Once you got into Ottawa, was your observation that the protest was peaceful?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see any acts of violence?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we'll get to the noise in a moment.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In another Tik Tok video you posted, and I'm -- and this would have been during the protest in Ottawa, you say that the last thing we need is a January 6th style insurrection, and that was one of your biggest concerns. Do you recall saying that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why was that one of your biggest concerns?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were saying that, was -- what sort of activity were you contemplating that might give rise, either correctly or incorrectly, to the impression that this was going to be some form of insurrection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there anything that other protestors were doing that were concerning you? And I’m not just talking about protestors within your group. I’m talking about of all the people who were in Ottawa.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So another thing you mentioned in the video that we showed was that there was rules of the convoy. You talked about clearing the way for emergency vehicles and that law enforcement need to be respected. Was there any other rules of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But at the same time, you recognize that it was important to have rules and try as an organizer to at least have -- try to have some sort of order over the people that were in Ottawa. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As an organizer, did you believe that you had responsibility for the conduct of the protestors in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what motivated you to do that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So from what I’m hearing, and I want you to correct me if I’m wrong, is that you liked what you were seeing, you felt it was positive and you wanted to try to keep that atmosphere because you wanted to continue the positive experience. Is that a fair sort of summary? Perhaps not the most articulate.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you were in Ottawa, what was your views on the police’s responsibilities with respect to peaceful protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video we showed, you mention that the “public is on our side and when we start acting like assholes, we lost that”.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did it mean to you to be “acting like an asshole”?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you give me an example of something that you believed was -- would be disrespectful?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I won’t ask you if you put the weight back on, so -- because I wouldn’t want anyone asking me that question. You say “acting like an asshole” included conduct that was disrespectful or disruptive. Did you see anything that was disrespectful or disruptive when you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when I say that, I appreciate that not everyone in Ottawa was necessarily someone who had come with your group or who might listen to you. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So with that in mind, at any point did you see anything in Ottawa that, you know, that might not be the person who came with you but you wished they weren’t doing it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your view on how the protest was portrayed in the media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What do you think was being missed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard and received -- heard evidence and received written evidence from various residents and municipal officials several complaints about the protestors’ conduct. I expect you’ll be familiar with them, but some of the things that the Commission has heard is that there was excessive noise due to air horns. There was harassment and intimidating behaviour, including people yelling racist or homophobic slurs. And that there was just a general disorder and unsafe conditions, including open fires, propane tanks near buildings and cars. Is this -- is this sort of evidence or concerns, are you familiar with that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In your mind, who was responsible for making sure that -- taking with the propane tanks or other -- or other flammables, who was responsible for making sure the protest was safe? Not that anyone was going to do anything intentional with a propane tank, but something bad could happen and -- and people could get hurt. Who was responsible for avoiding that outcome?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to now ask you about the horn honking. The Commission has heard evidence and I’m sure you’re aware that at different times in the protest there was a lot of horn honking. I assume you’ll agree with me about that.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consider the horn honking to be a form of peaceful protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So let’s pause there for a moment. The horns bothered you and prior to the Court order, which was an injunction to stop the horn honking, what steps did you take to limit the horns prior to the Court order?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I'm going to show you a video and then a post from your Facebook, so we'll start with the video. This is HRF192. And again, this is one of your Tik Toks.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Then if we could pull up COM00000889?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'll -- while we pull that up, would that be an example of you being a troll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
All right. So now I'm showing you -- if we could zoom out, so we can see this? We understand this to be a Facebook post from -- that you made on February 12th, 2022. To assist, I believe that is the character Buffalo Bill from the movie Silence of the Lambs.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And this is a joke about how -- that if the government doesn't get rid of the mandates, the horns are going to come back. Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then I'm going to show you one other Facebook post. That's COM00000888. And so in this one, this appears that you're sharing on February 13th a photo. I would guess this would be described as a meme of a boy blowing a bugle or a trumpet, being symbolized as the rest of Canada and then the Ottawa plugging their ears; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And first I'll ask you, are these two posts that you made on Facebook?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you look at the video we showed in these two Facebook posts, could you see why someone would question your sincerity when you say that you did everything in your power to stop the horns?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what would you -- again, you have an opportunity to speak to that. Is there anything you'd like to say?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We can take that down. Briefly, I'm going to ask you some questions about efforts to move trucks onto Wellington Street, and I understand there was a few different attempts, and we're going to hear more evidence about it this week, but I have some questions for you. So we've heard the evidence that on February 14th after an agreement was reached with the mayor, you were involved in moving 4 [sic] large trucks up to Wellington Street; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I said 40. I may not have been clear.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. And prior to that, we understand that the Freedom Convoy group had made an effort to have the trucks on the Rideau and Sussex intersection moved onto Wellington Street; do I have that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you tell me what happened with that attempt?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was the other -- were you able to move the other trucks on Rideau Sussex?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding at the time of who was in the Rideau and Sussex intersection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as I -- I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, in your conversations with the OPS and OPP, you were trying to get a lane open for emergency vehicles; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you made an effort with the people at Rideau Sussex. It was unsuccessful?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And other than the language barrier, was there any other reasons that that was unsuccessful to your mind?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you have -- at the time, were you familiar with the name the Farfadaas?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when the first time you heard the term Farfadaas?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the context of this Commission?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, we'll have a witness testifying later today who I'm sure can shed more light on the Farfadaas.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to now ask you some questions about the other protests that occurred outside of Ottawa in January and February 2022. While you were in Ottawa, did you have any communications or interactions with anyone who was participating in protests in Windsor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did -- do you recall whether anyone asked you or anyone that you were working with in Ottawa for assistance with respect to the protest in Windsor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any interactions or communications with anyone participating in any of the other protests anywhere else in Canada? And I can give you examples if it helps, but I'm going to ask you generally to start.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were your friends at Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who were they?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know this individual whose name you don't recall, do you know if he was participating in the organization of the Coutts protest or if he was a participant?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communications with anyone who was protesting in Emerson or Surrey?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Jeremy MacKenzie while you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know who Mr. MacKenzie was during the protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you familiar with the group Diagolon during the protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you spoken with Mr. MacKenzie since the protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Coming near to the end of our time, so I just have a few more questions for you. It's our understanding that after the Emergencies Act was invoked you were one of the people who had their bank accounts frozen; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell the Commission what that meant for you and what that was like?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did that impact you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned already that you were arrested on February 17th ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. How has the arrest affected your life?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What's changed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And one final question for you. Is there anything that you think it's important for the Commission to hear that we haven't touched on today?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, those are my questions.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
A few points of clarification based on some of the answers you've provided, Mr. Barber. In response to questions from counsel for former Chief Sloly, you indicated that in your efforts to speak to the protesters at Rideau/Sussex, you said -- I think you spoke to them, and you said they had a point. Do you recall that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember what their point was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when Mr. Champ was asking you questions, I thought I heard you mention that Ms. Belton's group was one of the groups that was handing out cash. Did I hear that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did Ms. Belton's group have a label?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how many people were in Ms. Belton's group?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then again, in response to questions from Mr. Champ, you mentioned a Mr. Bourgault.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Can you -- do you know Mr. Bourgault's first name?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you just the Commission a bit more about what Mr. Bourgault was doing and your interactions with him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was he providing financial support to the protesters?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, I don't think I got the answer there.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did he provide financial assistance?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Krajewska, from the CCLA, was asking you about bank accounts that were being frozen. And I -- as I understood the TD account you spoke about you said it had been frozen for 3.5 months?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why it was frozen for that long?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the TD Bank account you're referring to, that was an account that originally was opened by Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you had a pre-existing TD account ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and then Ms. Lich added you to the account that she had created for the purposes of getting the GoFundMe ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- funds?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then my final area to examine is we've heard a little bit more about Confederation Park or Major Hills Park. Did you ever see Confederation Park or Major Hills Park?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what use is made of that park normally?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Those are my questions.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The next witness is Tom Marazzo.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Marazzo.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I’m one of the Commission counsel. Through your counsel you have provided a statement about your involvement in the protests in Ottawa; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up HRF1595? Is this the statement that you've provided?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you reviewed it before testifying?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are there any changes that you wish to make?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you adopt the contents of this statement as accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to ask you just a few questions about your background. I understand from the statement which we can actually take down, Mr. Clerk -- is that you were born and raised in Ontario. Where did you grow up?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where do you live now?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you're a father of two children; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you served in the Armed Forces for 25 years, achieving the rank of Captain; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then after leaving the Armed Forces you earned an MBA?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where did you earn that Bachelor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then after that you begam working at Georgian College as a partial load teacher; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as I understand it, you lost that job in 2021; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you please explain to the Commission what happened?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when was that, approximately?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what were you doing between September 2021 and your arrival in Ottawa, which we’ll get to in a minute, which I understand was in January 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And prior to participating in the protest in Ottawa had you been politically active?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understood -- but please correct me if I'm wrong -- that you've never been a trucker?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you say in your statement that you arrived in Ottawa on January 30th, which I believe is the first Sunday; does that sound right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what brought you to Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who was the mutual friend?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you first spoke with Mr. Bauder what did you know about him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you learn about him when you spoke about him -- spoke with him, sorry?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any sense how James Bauder identified you as someone who might be able to assist?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After that initial phone conversation with Mr. Bauder, how often were you two in communication?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
hen you arrived at the ARC Hotel in Ottawa, what did you learn about the organization of the protests?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ve heard the name Fung Li. Was it your understanding that those -- him and the other officer were members of the PLT?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who were the other truckers in the room?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I’ll return to who you were dealing with in a minute. Can you just perhaps provide some more context or an explanation about how it was the case that you received a phone -- like, what drove you to go to Ottawa after receiving a phone call from a man that you’d never met before and you didn’t know anything about that would have you leave, you know, your wife and your kids to go and do that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The phone call you mentioned with Mr. Hillier, was that in the context of the Ottawa protests or did that happen before?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you arrived in Ottawa, did you have a sense of how long you were planning on being there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you arrive and, you know, you’ve spoken to Mr. Bauder on the phone, he brings you into this room where there’s protesters and some police, what happens next? How do you integrate yourself into the organization?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it that this involved meeting a lot of people you had never before?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone ask you who you were and what you were doing there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say “in charge” and “get organized”, do you mean get organized -- are you talking about logistics?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So emergency lanes ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- fuel, food, money. Anything else that you would consider as part of being responsible for logistics?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you arrived on the 30th, and I guess probably moving into the 31st, did you come to understand that there had already been people in Ottawa who were working on food, logistics, and money?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And can you -- what did you learn about the alternate coordination centre at the Swiss Hotel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was it the case that no one was organizing feeding and fuel before your arrival?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I’m going to do this in a bit of a two-part question ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and bear with me if it presents a problem, but can you explain to me what was happening in terms of where food and fuel was coming from before your arrival and then what changed after your arrival or what you did to change anything?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you learn anything about the Adopt a Trucker campaign that was being spearheaded by Chris Garrah?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How was fuel supplied to truckers that were in downtown core?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And was that something you assisted in organizing?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you do anything to coordinate fuel into the downtown Ottawa at any point?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One of the things you said you did was get a sense of the number and composition of the types of truck. Two -- first question; how did you go about doing that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall what was the result of that calculation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But at some point in time it was determined there was roughly 322 trucks?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point did you feel that you had a handle on the number of trucks that were in the City and then were coming and going or was that something that always changed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
With respect to clearing emergency lanes, the Commission has heard evidence, including from Mr. Barber and Mr. Wilson, that the emergency lanes -- let me back up. The protestors weren’t able to keep the lanes clear on Rideau, Sussex and at Kent; does that sound correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It was not left open, to your knowledge?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so it’s my understanding that those efforts were generally successful except on Kent Street; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So the evidence has been there’s been two locations, one’s Rideau/Sussex ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- which we’ll talk about in a moment. To your knowledge was there another location that was -- where the emergency lanes were not open?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know who you were speaking with who gave you that information?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand from your statement and from some of the evidence, that you had several interactions with the people who were at Rideau and Sussex; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you come to learn about who was in that intersection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard many adjectives to describe the group but I’ll put to you the suggestion that they’ve been described as difficult or standoffish; would you agree with that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We’ve heard a bit again about -- with respect to French-Canadian protestors there; were you familiar with the “Farfadaas” at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Would you say there was anything different in the make-up of the group at Rideau/Sussex than at any of the other locations?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As you began to work on clearing emergency lanes, interacting with the police, working with the protestors, what did you come to understand the organization of the protestors to be?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
To your mind were there any leader or leaders of the group?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Pat King while you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you tell us what your interactions were and what your impression of him was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are you talking about the slow rolls at the airport?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you think you needed to send someone to keep Pat King well behaved?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I take it -- so one of your concerns was potentially that Mr. King might try to shut down the airport or blockade the airport?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you take a precaution when you're concerned that something ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- might happen? So is that - --
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- what you were concerned would happen?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was your concern based on Mr. King's reputation, as you indicated?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was Mr. King's reputation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you concerned it was possible that Mr. King may not engage in peaceful protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mention that you had dealt with Mr. Bauder rather sporadically ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- after the initial phone conversation, introduction. At any point did you become aware of the Memorandum of Understanding, which I'm sure you've heard about over the last few weeks, or the last few days, at least?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say it made it look like you were there for a completely different purpose, what was that purpose?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You may not remember the details, but was your concern that what the MOU appeared to call for was something that was undemocratic?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You said you had a conversation with someone where you said this must be denounced. Who was that conversation with?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's Commission's understanding that Mr. Broadman was someone who was associated with Mr. Bauder; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did he seem receptive to your message?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You've been referred to in media and some of the documents we received as the spokesperson for the protestors. Did you identify yourself to anyone as the spokesman?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, spokesperson.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see yourself as a spokesperson?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you did. on multiple occasions, either speak on livestreams or in sort of forums or press conferences; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's our understanding -- but again, correct me if I'm wrong -- that the first one was on February 7th. Does that sound correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, let's talk about some of that confusion right now then. So you -- as our -- again, it's our understanding that this is the 7th ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- that you gave a press conference. Mr. Barber was there, Ms. Belton was there, Ms. Lich was there ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and some of the organizers?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what I'm referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did that press conference come about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up COM00000884, and as it's coming up, Mr. Marazzo, this is -- you can confirm if it is the case, but we understand that this is the press conference.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
This is it? Okay. If you could pause it please and go to the 7:25 mark, and then play from 7:25 to about 8:21. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
One quick question and then I'm going to ask you about the statement that caused confusion. When you made a reference to a 22-caliber Ermine and a 357 World, this has been something that's been reported on, were you referencing Mr. -- Prime Minister Trudeau?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video you say, "I'm willing to sit at a table with..."
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I didn't ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, I didn't mean to cut you off.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Please go ahead.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, understood. Sorry.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You can take the video down.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Then you said, "I'm willing to sit at a table with the Conservatives and the NDP and the Block as a coalition. I'll sit with the Governor General. Put us at the table with somebody that actually cares about Canada."
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you mean when you said that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Some media outlets who reported on this come to suggest that you were saying that the protesters wanted to form governments, which ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- they would be in a coalition with ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- the opposition parties, but the protesters themselves would form part of the government.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know what I'm talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that you spoke again on February 10th and attempted to clarify your statements.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I understand that. But did you take any steps to clarify what you meant with the media outlets who were reporting that the protesters wanted to form a coalition government?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you didn't make any efforts to go to the ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- reporters who had reported ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- a different interpretation and say, "That's wrong. Can you please fix it?"
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so you don't know whether or not they would have issued a correction or issued a -- maybe not a correction, a follow-up story, you just don't know.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After the February 7th press conference, Benjamin Dichter, who's a witness we'll hear from later, sent out a press release saying that only himself, Mr. Barber, Ms. Lich and a woman named Dagney were authorized to speak on behalf of the protesters. Do you know what I'm referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have an interaction with Mr. Dichter where you discussed who was authorized to speak on behalf?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to move forward a bit -- well, not that much forward, a day forward to your meeting with Steve Kanellakos ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- which, again, the Commission has already heard a fair bit of evidence about. But I take it you recall meeting with Mr. Kanellakos?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you want to meet with Mr. Kanellakos?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can I pull up OPS8527? Could we go to page 3? So, Mr. Marazzo, you're not involved in this email chain, so ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- but this is an email chain within the Ottawa Police Service. And if we can scroll up just a little bit higher, so we can see -- this is an email from John Ferguson to Mark Patterson and Robert Drummond. Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Mr. Ferguson?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if we can scroll down? So we say here, "One of our teams has already been out [to] Rideau/Sussex to speak with [the] representatives of that group." And it goes on and it says, "In regards to the main convoy our PLT members are currently walking [...] red zone[s] with one of the main organizers Tom Marazzo who is responsible for 322 trucks..." Do you see that there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And then if we could scroll up a bit further? So this is another -- this is now an email from Mr. -- I forget his rank, so I'm going to call him Mr. Patterson. And it says, "PLT members continued their conversations with Mr. Marazzo this evening. He has requested a meeting with an elected official or [City level --] City Manager level member." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall, now that you've seen this, ever being the one who requested the meeting?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You can take that down. So we saw in the press conference you were talking, and in your answer about the press conference, you were talking about the importance of engaging with Government and speaking with Government.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I appreciate you changed your mind after you met with Steve K. but why wouldn’t you want to meet with a City official?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Wilson mentioned in his testimony on more than one occasion that you had a sense that Former Chief Sloly was -- you were concerned about the pressure he was under; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And, again, we heard Mr. Wilson this morning; he described that after the meeting with Mr. Kanellakos there was an initial effort ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- to move the trucks from Rideau Sussex to Wellington, and as I understand it, that effort was unsuccessful because the police ultimately didn’t move the barricades that would be necessary to do that; did Mr. Wilson have that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then Mr. Wilson talked about another attempt that was made on February the 10th and then there was -- which was -- did not proceed.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I take it you agree with Mr. Wilson?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So then we come to the agreement with the Mayor and there was a meeting on February 13th at City Hall; were you at that meeting?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
That’s our understanding of who was there.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I appreciate at that point in time; it’s the case that you had indicated that you wouldn’t be able to move trucks off Rideau/Sussex; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Superintendent Drummond testified that at that meeting it was represented that there was two locations where the organizers did not believe they would get by and one was Rideau/Sussex and one was with the Coventry group. Do you recall anyone at the meeting from the protestors side indicating that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I want to talk briefly now about the final days that you were in Ottawa. After February 17th and after the Emergencies Act was invoked, was it your understanding that protestors were allowed to enter into what’s called the “Red Zone”?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was the basis of your understanding that they could enter if they were on foot?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And up until at least the 14th you had been in daily contact with police liaisons; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any contact with them after the invocation of the Emergencies Act and did they give you any indication whether or not you were allow -- whether or not protestors on foot were allowed in the Red Zone?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know when that phone call was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware of the TikTok video that’s been discussed a couple of times in which Mr. Wilson explains that protestors are allowed to continue to protest peacefully?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction to seeing it now?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there at any point when it became clear to you that the police were not going to allow protestors on foot to be in the Red Zone?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when -- what day was that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And during that time when the police began clearing the protesters, did anyone from the police ever indicate to you that there was an area where protesters could go to protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you make any -- did you ask whether there was anywhere that ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is it something that crossed your mind?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I’ve run past my time so I will ask you one last question which is, is there anything else that you think is important that we should ask you about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, Commissioner, just one area. Mr. Marazzo, you were asked a few questions with respect to Mr. Jeremy Mackenzie?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know of Mr. Mackenzie prior to coming to Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you ever met him prior to coming to Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware that he was also a former Canadian Forces member?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know that Mr. Mackenzie was in Ottawa at certain times during the protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever interact with Mr. Mackenzie in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have those text messages?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You describe, I think, one of the phone calls. What was discussed on the other one?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who gave you Mr. Mackenzie's phone number?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you know the person might have Mr. Mackenzie's phone number?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever have any communications or contact with anyone who was protesting or was in Coutts, Alberta while you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communication with anyone in any other -- at any of the other protest locations in Canada?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still have a copy of that message?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During your two conversations with Mr. Mackenzie, did he ever indicate to you that he was in contact with anyone in any of the other protests or occupations in Canada?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, sir.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The next witness is Benjamin Dichter.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning, Mr. Dichter.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
While the registrar takes the Torah, your counsel here, Jim Karahalios, I believe, wants to make a brief statement before we begin.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good morning again, Mr. Dichter.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I’m Commission counsel.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I just have a few questions about your background to start. I understand you’re from Toronto; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what’s your current occupation.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How long have you been a trucker?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you just give the Commission a sense of the nature of your trucking business, where you travel, what sort of loads you carry?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you give the Commission a sense of the sort of podcasts you produce?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Any other podcasts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sometimes podcast companies have -- or they fall under an umbrella. Like, is there a name for your podcasting publishing platform?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
"Possibly Correct", okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you podcasting with "Possibly Correct" in January 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission has read reports that indicated that you've also had jobs including being a gemologist, designing safety equipment for motorcyclists, and owning a commercial printing shop. Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I also understand you ran for city council in 2014; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right, and that was in 2015?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I should -- when I say "city council" in this setting, I should say that was the city council of Toronto, not ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- the city council of Ottawa; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you've also founded a group called "LGBT" -- sorry, "LGB Tory"?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell the Commission what that group is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is that group still active?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Shifting now to the protest in Ottawa in January and February 2022, how did you get involved?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you first meet Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say you connected with her, it was through some other people. Who were those people?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was that podcast that they were fans of?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
"Quiggin Report", okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So sorry, you said that was around 2017, 2018?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And after you first met Ms. Lich, how frequently were you in contact between then and January 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you come to learn about Ms. Lich's political interests?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But it sounds like you had subsequent conversations with her about politics; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And through those conversations, what did you learn about Ms. Lich's politics? What was she trying to do? What was she hoping to achieve? What was her interest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I'm not asking to put a label on Ms. Lich. What I'm interested in understanding is, through your conversations with her, what did you understand, you know, the causes that she was interested in, what was she trying to achieve, regardless of what the label is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the sense I get from that response is that she was involved in the Maverick Party and you raised with her, "You know, this is tied to the Conservative Party or has a relationship and that’s an establishment party." It sounded like that was something you weren’t in favour of; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At that point in time, in December 2021, were you still a supporter of the Conservative Party?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Again, setting aside labels, how would you describe your political views in December 2021 to January 2022.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Ms. Lich calls you and I forget you said what day you thought it was, but it was January 2022 and she asks you if you can come and assist with messaging and press releases.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I think we know from the evidence that you took her up on the request; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why did you want to participate in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What day did you arrive in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you get there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Your truck?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consider at all whether or not you could find a truck or another commercial to bring with you in solidarity with the other truckers that had arrived?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you hope to achieve by participating in the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so again you said that you were there to assist with messaging and public relations. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And was there anyone else who was working on that aspect of the organization?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And maybe if you could assist the Commission and give us a sense of what it involved to be doing messaging and press releases, and public relations. What did your day to day involve?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as the Commission understands, you gave some television interviews during the convoy; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And those included with outlets like FOX News?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you, as I understand it, you also gave at least one interview with Russia Today; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you say you gave interviews with what you view as current media. Could you just explain what you meant by that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you say “current media” you were looking for, in your view, the media that had the largest platforms that would reach the largest audiences? Is that what ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you would not give interviews to media organizations such as the CBC, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why wouldn’t you give interviews to those Canadian media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We’ve heard some evidence from different witnesses so far about you having suffered some injuries during -- on your way to Ottawa and during your time in Ottawa.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’ll just give you an opportunity. Can you just explain exactly what happened and when it happened?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that was that incident, and then I'm going to return to a second, were you also in a car accident just briefly; is that true?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So you had a bit of a run of bad luck.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So I want to pick up on the context or the -- what happened before you slipped and fell.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You said that there had been a press conference on February 4th with I think you said the lawyers; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Oh.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So did you see the video yourself?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did you recognize the lawyers in the video?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who did you come to learn who the lawyers were?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And so you were staying at the Sheraton Hotel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you went to the ARC Hotel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you go to the ARC Hotel to find out who was in the video?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who's the "they"?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And they are at the hotel, the lawyers?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then who did you meet at the hotel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, so Keith Wilson?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Eva Chipiuk?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Andre Memauri, I believe?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Chad Eros?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Brigitte Belton.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And what -- describe the conversation you had at that point in time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you had this conversation with Mr. Wilson. You expressed your concern. Did things improve after that in terms of Mr. Wilson's messaging?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding of that direction?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you think that Mr. Wilson and Mr. Marazzo could speak -- had a position of moral persuasion?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Why not?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it sounds to me that you had a concern that they were pursuing political -- a political agenda and/or ulterior motives; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So do you think Mr. Wilson and Mr. Marazzo had the same goals as you in terms of ending the mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever speak with Mr. Wilson or Mr. Marazzo about the concerns you had about what they were doing?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that's with respect to who's doing the messaging, but ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- your concerns that Mr. Marazzo and Mr. Wilson were seeking to end the protests or find a way for the protest to end, is that something you ever brought to them and asked them about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you do to try to understand if this is actually what they were trying to do?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Dichter, I've heard, you know, what you've said about dealing with the messaging and your approach to the messaging, and I understand you're -- what you're saying with respect to "I wasn't going to go to Mr. Wilson or Mr. Marazzo and say I", you know, "I'm concerned you have ulterior motives. Are you trying to ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- end the protest?" Did you raise that concern with Mr. Lich, Mr. Barber, Ms. Belton, anyone who I presume you didn't have a concern about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what did Ms. Lich say in response to your concerns?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we'll get to the agreement with the Mayor to move the trucks more in a moment, but ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- I understand that's what you're referring to when you're talking about moving trucks to Wellington. And the evidence we have heard so far is that the Mayor wrote a letter saying that he would agree to meet with some of the organisers if the organisers were able to show that they could move trucks out of the residential areas onto Wellington and perhaps elsewhere. And we'll get to how that came about in a moment. But ultimately, at some point you -- did you learn that Ms. Lich had entered into that agreement with the Mayor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But at some point you learned that Tamara had sent those letters. I appreciate, and we'll probably speak to a moment, you -- that it may be the case you didn't understand what was happening at the time, but at some point you learned that yes, Tamara had exchanged letters with the Mayor.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you ever spoken with Ms. Lich about the agreement that she reached with the Mayor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Ms. Lich was arrested after the agreement with the Mayor and after February 14th when we've heard evidence of moving trucks onto Wellington. In that last time you spoke with Ms. Lich, did you ask her at all about whether or not she had agreed with the Mayor to move trucks up onto Wellington?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So again, I take it you see Ms. Lich as one of the organisers of the convoy; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Barber?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Ms. Belton?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anyone else who you think was sort of a key organiser or played an important role?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you arrived in Ottawa, were you aware that Pat King had had involvement in organizing the travel of the Convoy across Canada to Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you talk about Mr. King’s rhetoric, what rhetoric?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you able to see Mr. King’s testimony yesterday?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And some statements were put to him, including statements he made about Indigenous people, statements he made about Asians. Is that what you’re referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember, were those the social -- were those the postings that you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- saw at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I take it, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but were you concerned -- did you - - let me put it to you this way. Were you concerned about the fact that -- the substance of those statements, did they offend you? Or were you concerned about those statements would be associated with the Convoy? Or was it both?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as discussed with Mr. King, the media reported on some of his past rhetoric, some of his past statements. The media also reported on statements you had made in the past. Are you -- do you know what I’m talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in particular, there was reports that, and in this case from the Globe and Mail, that at some point in 2018, you gave a speech to the People’s Party of Canada in which you allege that Islamic front groups were infiltrating the country’s political institutions. And they quote you as saying: “…the adaptation of political Islam is rotting away at our society like syphilis.” Do you know the media report I’m referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that something you said in 2018?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any concern -- and I appreciate you stand by the statements, but do you have any concern about how those statements might affect the Freedom Convoy, given your role in the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As you’ve noted, you’ve provided context to those statements in the Legislature. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At the time, did you take any steps to contact the media who were reporting on those statements and provide the context you’ve provided the Legislature and now provided today?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard a fair bit of evidence about Mr. King’s role, and we’ve spoken about Mr. King, and also about Mr. James Bauder. As someone who was involved in the organization, in your view, how influential were Mr. King and Mr. Bauder to the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say Mr. Mackenzie was your personal troll, can you expand on that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you think what Mr. Mackenzie does is comedy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What do you think it is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to return now, and we got to it already a bit, but I just have a few more questions about the agreement that was reached between Ms. Lich and the mayor and some of the events that’s surrounding that. So the mayor and Ms. Lich exchanged letters on February 12th. On February 13th, there was a news report that came out saying that the agreement that was reflected in those letters had been reached. And then if we could pull COM831. And so this is a tweet for your Twitter account. If we can scroll down, you can see the timing, just so we can scroll down to the bottom, from 8:24 p.m. And if we could scroll up, it says, “More fake…” -- and this is -- you’re referencing the media report I referenced. It says: "More fake news. This time from CityTV News. No deal has been struck. The federal government has not yet lifted its mandates and passports. Do not watch #fakenews. It’s bad for your mental health. This is completely false." Why did you send that tweet?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up BJD00000017. And this is a document that you provided to the Commission I believe yesterday.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It was February 13th at 8:24 p.m. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I must have the wrong number. Perhaps I’ll -- I think we have the message you’re referring to. I don’t have the number now. I thought maybe I’d have an opportunity to show it to you and confirm that’s the message but -- so you had a text exchange with Mr. Wilson, or a messaging exchange ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Signal exchange with Mr. Wilson on the 14th when you said, “What’s going on?” and he said, “There’s been nothing with the mayor.” And again, we will -- when we have the opportunity, we’ll pull that up. My question for you now is, between when you read the news article that you tweeted about and when you tweeted about it, did you ask anyone whether the news article was true or make any inquiries about the news article?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right, but your lawyer told you that on the 14th, not on the 13th when you tweeted it out.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Oh, sorry.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that conversation you had with Mr. Wilson on the 13th, was that in writing or was that ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then if we could pull up COM841. So the first -- your tweet, which is there, says: "More fake news from CityTV. No deal has been struck." And then we see this is a retweet by Tamara Lich -- or, sorry, from Ms. Lich’s account, which I think is an important distinction ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- as we’ll get to, three minutes later in which Ms. Lich’s account says: "The media lies to their viewers no ‘deal’ has been made. End the mandates. End the passports. That’s why we are here." The Commission had heard and received evidence that you had access to Ms. Lich’s Twitter account and that you were the one who made this tweet.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. And did you -- did, then, you do this retweet from her account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You were in regular contact with Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is there any reason you didn’t speak with her before you sent out this tweet?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. Commissioner, I’ve come to the end of my time. If I could have five more minutes just to address one more document and then one more item.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes, if ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes. Actually, why don’t we do that document right now. So it’s BJD18. I was one digit off. My apologies, Mr. Dichter. So, on the screen, this appears to be a message you’ve provided to us. I take it this is the message that you sent Mr. Wilson on Signal.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then, if we scroll down, we have his response?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Is that what you’re referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Wilson has both given testimony and also had an interview with the Commission. And in his interview, Mr. Wilson stated that you were, at least to his understanding, aware that an agreement had been reached with the mayor -- between the mayor and Tamara, and he expressed some surprise that you sent your tweet and Tamara’s retweet. And specifically, Mr. Wilson has identified this -- the following document as evidencing that knowledge, HRF1491 -- HRF00001491. So we’ll scroll down. You'll see that this is February 12th at 3:47 in the afternoon. Mr. Wilson writes to you. The middle paragraph says: “Hence the drafting committee will keep working on the broader document for review by the Board tomorrow but in the meantime below is a draft communication for the captains/truckers specific to the mayor’s arrangements to allow you to advance into Wellington and Elgin while at the same time taking away the excuse that Trudeau wants to unleash the police goons and seize trucks. Remember, we are trying to block Trudeau from having the justification to cause the police to use the new emergency power against the truckers and to allow the truckers to stay here in Ottawa for as long as it takes, et cetera.” And then if you scroll up, sorry, to the top you then replied shortly afterwards, saying: “Looks good to me.” What did you understand Mr. Wilson to be talking about in his email when you responded, “Looks good to me”?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In Mr. Wilson’s email he says: “… below is a draft communication for the captains/truckers specific to the mayor’s arrangement to allow us to advance into Wellington and Elgin.” What did you understand that to mean?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you take any steps to learn what Mr. Wilson was talking about in that email?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And my final question for you, Mr. Dichter is you referenced that you had a good working relationship with Mr. Wilson and you were surprised by his testimony yesterday. Other than what we’ve spoken about, is there anything else that surprised you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. Those are my questions.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Commissioner, just for you assistant and for the assistance of the parties and the public, I just want to read what Rule ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- 59 says. So Rule 59 says that: “If a representative or a witness intends to adduce evidence in-chief not adduced by Commission counsel, the representative will examine the witness immediately following Commission counsel and then will have a right to re-examine the witness following questions by the other parties. There is no reference to leading or non-leading in the Rule.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Not at this time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, Mr. Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Ms. Lich.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I'm Commission counsel.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where do you live now?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And could you tell us, in brief, just give us a summary of your employment history?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand, or the Commission understands that prior to COVID-19, you were politically active? Is that a fair statement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. You were, among other things, a regional coordinator for Wexit in South Eastern Alberta?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You were on the Board of Directors for Wexit Canada?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And at one point, you were Vice-President of Communications for Wexit Canada?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
For those who may not be as familiar with Alberta politics, can you explain what Wexit is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And at one point, Wexit merged into the Wildrose Independence Party? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you at some point left that party and then joined the Maverick Party? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So is Maverick essentially Wexit but with a new name?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you said you had concerns about, I think, how the west was being treated, can you expand on what those concerns were?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And again, for people who may not be as familiar, can you explain how those bills, at least in your mind, led to the job loss you’re talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What is the goal of the Maverick Party?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what -- can you give any examples of the constitutional reform that the Maverick Party is seeking?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Does the Maverick Party consider the Federal Government to have too much power?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And going back to the constitution reforms that you referenced, and then I think the next thing you said was if there isn’t constitutional reform, then ultimately the goal of the Maverick Party is independence from Canada. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you ever been a trucker, Ms. Lich?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that in 2019, you also participated in the Yellow-Vest Movement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain what the Yellow-Vest Movement was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so those Yellow Vest rallies were rallies in opposition to the same legislation we spoke about earlier?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned that it was - - maybe is inspired the right word, by the movement in France? What would be the right word?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did -- were you aware that the movement in France eventually came under some controversy for being associated with Islamophobia?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so I think you mentioned, but it’s the Commission’s understanding that you were the organizer of the Yellow Vest rallies in Medicine Hat?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it’s the Commission’s understanding that the Yellow-Vest in Medicine Hat ended up changing its name? Is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did the Yellow-Vest group in Medicine Hat change its name?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And so if I could pull up COM00000908? And then if we could scroll down to the headline? This is an article from January 12th, 2019. It says: “Following death-threats to Trudeau, Yellow-Vest Medicine Hat looks to change their name”. Is that the article you’re referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the article states that not on the Medicine Hat Facebook page, but on the more general Yellow-Vest Canada Facebook page, there had been death threats that had been posted about Prime Minister Trudeau. Is -- do you recall that occurring at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did the name -- I appreciate you might not recall the specific threats, but the name change was as a result of those?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And if we could go to page 3 of the article? It quotes you, Ms. Lich, as saying: “Stay positive is number one. We don’t want any name calling, bashing or belittlement. Respecting peoples [sic] privacy is also a big one. We will not tolerate threats, hate speech or anything like that. We don’t want that kind of stigma attached to our cause.” Do you see that there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I take it that’s a view you held at the time ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- and you still hold today?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And that’s ultimately - - you had to deliver a similar message at times when it came to the protests in Ottawa? Is that true?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission has heard evidence on a few occasions about a convoy in 2019 called United We Roll. Are you familiar with that convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you participate in that convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any involvement in that convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you connected people’s phone numbers and then organized a smaller convoy within Medicine Hat?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you provide more detail about what you mean when you say you were connecting people’s phone numbers?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you aware at the time that Pat King was involved in the United We Roll Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you first hear of Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
During United We Roll, did you ever communicate with Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When was the first time you communicated with Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So in the context of the Ottawa Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. We’ll get back to that in a minute. Between United We Roll and the Ottawa Convoy, did you follow Mr. King on social media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when we talk about following, did you make a deliberate decision to click unfollow on Facebook?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you make that decision at that point in time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you come to form an impression of Mr. King’s views in following him during United We Roll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall finding anything he said offensive with respect to United We Roll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you communicate with James Bauder at all during United We Roll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you remember when the first time was that met Mr. Bauder?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then had you met him virtually before then?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So again within the context of January of 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So moving now to the Freedom Convoy, how did you get involved in the Freedom Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And a few questions arising out of that. Do you remember who the acquaintance was that gave you Mr. Barber’s phone number?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And did Mr. Carritt participate in the convoy, do you know?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the two friends that you indicated you had a conversation with about whether or not a convoy again was a good idea, who were they?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understood from your answer, but correct me if I’m wrong, that both Ms. Parker and -- and I'm going to mispronounce the last name -- Mr. Lychinsky, was it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Tchinsky. Did they participate in United We Roll?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So why did you want to get involved in the convoy? Why did you want to reach out to Mr. Barber?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you say “emailing MPs” had you been emailing them about COVID 19 mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you had formed this impression that you were having difficulty getting someone to listen to you in the government based on letters you sent primarily with respect to the pipeline issues we’ve been talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How had COVID 19 restrictions or mandates affected you personally?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you lose your job?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what shop was that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you affected at all by vaccine passports or other restrictions on unvaccinated people?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you want to achieve by participating in the Freedom Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have a goal beyond having someone come and listen to you about the mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was your goal to have the mandates end or was a discussion enough? Or was that something you hadn’t turned your mind to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The frustration that you were describing with respect to mandates, did that feel familiar to the frustration that you had been feeling with respect to the pipeline and oil and gas issues?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why was that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you offered to help, in reaching out to Chris Barber, and it’s our understanding that one of the first things you did was create a Facebook page? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And started the GoFundMe campaign? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you did both of those things on January 14th?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Twitter account? Was that different than the Twitter account that we saw earlier today? That was your personal Twitter account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
With respect to GoFundMe, had you ever done fundraising before?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So never done an online social media driven ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- fundraiser? And then it’s the Commission’s understanding that on January 17th, you created -- or the organizers created a finance committee? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And can you explain what the finance committee’s purpose was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how would a committee assist with that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we’ll get into that more in a minute. The Commission also understands that it was around January 21st, 2022, when the GoFundMe donations hit a million dollars? Does that sound accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, in and around there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction when that milestone was hit?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right, because that kind of money, you know, in the millions of dollars, a lot of responsibility ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than set up the finance committee, what else did you do to address the responsibility that came with having millions of dollars?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anything else?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
That’s okay. And then on February 2nd, 2022, we understand that $1 million from the GoFundMe account was transferred to a TD Bank account in your name. Does that accord with your recollection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then that TD Bank account was frozen the next day? Is that -- does that sound right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then there was actually another TD Bank account that got frozen? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it’s the Commission’s understanding that donations were received both through GoFundMe and through e-transfers. And what I understand you to be saying is to segregate where the money came from, you opened a second account specifically for e-transfers?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you find out that your bank accounts had been frozen?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up COM.OR00000005? And Ms. Lich, while it comes up, this is the overview report that was presented this morning with respect to crowd funding. And if we could go to paragraph 87, which is on page 33? So here, Ms. Lich, it describes that on February 5th, 2022, you attempted to make a wire transfer to Northern Air Charter (p.r.) Inc. from an Ottawa TD branch. This transaction was denied. Is this what you were referring to just previously?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And that was the flight, I think you said, that had brought Mr. Wilson and your husband and others to Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who approved the using of the funds for that purpose?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Board, are you referring to the Board of the Directors for the not-for-profit corporation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consult with the finance committee before attempting to use the money for that purpose?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you know why you didn’t consult with the finance committee?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could -- we can take that down -- in that same report -- I won't turn it up, but it indicates that most of the $1 million was frozen and you weren’t able to withdraw it from the account; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall how much you were able to withdraw?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You anticipated my question, so yes, please, go ahead.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when you're talking about road captains, are you talking about the $13,000 that wasn’t for the first two bulk fuel purchases you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And am I understanding you correctly that that money was distributed to the road captains?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the $10,000 that was used for the one bulk fuel purchase, do you recall where you purchased the fuel from?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And there was also a $3,000 fuel purchase. Do you recall ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
That’s okay. After the fuel was purchased, how was it distributed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yes.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you -- through dealing with the professionals, did you come to have any understanding of how they distributed the fuel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you're talking about the professionals, who are you referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there anyone in particular or any people in particular who were responsible for overseeing the logistics of distributing fuel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who were those gentlemen?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What happened to the receipts that the captains returned?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could go to GFM156? So this is a GoFundMe attestation letter. Are you familiar with this document?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you describe what this document is and what its purpose was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You can read it, yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then the clerk has scrolled down now, and what I want to ask you about is -- it says: "With the oversight of the finance committee, I will execute the following plan to meet the stated purpose of the fundraiser and distribute the funds raised and released to me." And then it sets out a process. Do you see that there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall making this form of commitment to GoFundMe?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's our understanding that GoFundMe sought this sort of commitment as part of the ongoing discussion about whether or not it would release the funds; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you see here, it sets out process. "Funds will be distributed via e- transfer directly from the TD unlimited chequing account established in my name to individual convoy participants. Participants must submit their own convoy registration forms, fuel receipts, and verification for their participation from the road captain to that participant registration is verified by the respective road captains upon demonstration of completion, receipts, and confirmation of the journey to Ottawa, and reimbursement amounts will be calculated at an estimated rate of 62 cents per kilometre trip." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So this attestation, it appears, was contemplating how people would be reimbursed on their way to Ottawa; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was any similar plan made for disbursements once the convoy was in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So my question was with respect to distribution once you were in Ottawa. Was the plan to use the registration forms once money was distributed in Ottawa as well?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you follow that plan?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about for the $26,000?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What about for the $26,000?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the GoFundMe money, you had a distribution plan, but for the e-transfer money you did not?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you consider having a distribution plan for the e-transfer money?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And while you may have turned things over to the finance committee, it's the Commission's understanding, again from testimony and documents that we've read, that you became the person associated with the GoFundMe campaign and the person associated with the $10-plus million; is that -- was that your experience?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What impact did that have on you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you get a lot of questions about the money and what you were planning to do with it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you get a lot of people approaching you and asking you if they could have some of the money?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And Mr. Eros, who we've spoken about, had an interview with the Commission, and he said that at some point after February 1st, he spoke with you on the phone and you told him that you were feeling overwhelmed because a lot of people were circling you and asking for money, and he said that you called them vultures in a text message.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How did you handle having all these people circling around you and seeking money?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm going to now ask you some questions about the organization of the Freedom Convoy. First question for you is, at the time, did you see yourself as one of the founders of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Who did you see as the founders?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you view Mr. King or Mr. Bauder as founders of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you joined, were you aware that they had been assisting in planning and promotion of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I appreciate that you saw yourself as a supporter and not one of the founders. Did you come to see yourself as one of the leaders of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see yourself as having any say greater than anyone else on the team?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who did you see as a member -- the members of that team?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So when Mr. Wilson described you as an organic leader, do you agree with that statement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what I understood from your previous answer is that you were seen as the leader, but you, yourself, didn't feel that you were the leader?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Chris Barber in his testimony discussed that there was power struggles among the organizers. Was that something you observed as well?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What power struggles did you observe?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What were some of the people or groups that were doing that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you talk about bags of swag, and that was the -- are you -- was -- is that a case where you were concerned that, well, they -- the group might have had the same goals, they were seeking a promotional opportunity; is that what you're referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have concerns that there were other groups or individuals who were seeking to use the mass media coverage and the $10 million as a way to promote themselves instead of focus on the cause?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever turn your mind to whether or not this was acting as a promotional opportunity for yourself?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the Commission understands that you participated in a press conference on February 3rd, 2022. Mr. Wilson also attended. Do you know which conference I'm referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I'm going to ask you some questions about that conference in a second, but, first, I just want to understand when you first met Mr. Wilson.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did it come about that the convoy was looking for a lawyer?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And, sorry, who was that doctor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And was it your understanding at the time that it was the JCCF that had arranged for Mr. Wilson and others to come and assist the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your understanding of what the JCCF was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Had you met Mr. Wilson prior to February 2nd?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So can you please explain to the Commission how it came to pass that you met Mr. Wilson for the first time on February 2nd and then on February 3rd were at a news conference with him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So was that on the 1st, going to the 2nd? Or the 2nd going to the 3rd?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that was the first?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you aid in that answer that you -- maybe I'm going to back up. So February 1st, I took from your answer, is it fair to say you were already feeling overwhelmed by everything that was going on?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And now you were being asked to do a press conference which you were not feeling prepared to undertake; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you said in your answer that you also were getting the sense that you needed to be careful who you trusted.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My question was really -- you said in the February 1st to 2nd period you begin sensing you need to be careful who you trusted.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I wanted to understand what had caused you to have that feeling.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I don't mean to interrupt you but can you explain who the “they” is in this situation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And they were with the Taking Back Our Freedoms group?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was there any other groups causing you this sort of concern?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so what was different about Mr. Wilson and the people he was with?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Another way of putting it, yes.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then at the next day you did appear at the news conference with Mr. Wilson; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
All right. And at that press conference Mr. Wilson described you as the spark that lit the fire. Do you recall that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you agree with Mr. Wilson? Were you the spark that lit the fire?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Appreciating everything you've said about Mr. Wilson, and I’ve heard you, did it concern you that Mr. Wilson opened the press conference by placing you in the spotlight like that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m not going to ask you some questions about sort of your day to day life in Ottawa when you were participating in the convoy. And we’ve heard the evidence and I've already heard you say; we understand that it was a busy time. There was a lot going on. But can you give the Commission a sense of what you were doing on a day to day basis?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you attended the meetings. What else did you do?,
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the Commission’s heard evidence from, you know, Mr. Marazzo described himself as responsible for logistics, Mr. Barber, who sounds like he spent a lot of time interacting with truck drivers and speaking with them. Mr. Dichter today talked about how he was responsible for public relations and messaging. We anticipate that Mr. Bulford’s going to testimony tomorrow that he was responsible for security and other things. With all of that covered, did you have a specific responsibility?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And fair to say that once the money was frozen, in terms of managing the finances, that was something that was mostly off the table?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m going to ask you about some of the people that we’ve already discussed about, and some of the people we’ve heard in the evidence. You’ve already talked about Mr. Eros, who we understand was the accountant for the not-for-profit corporation. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How would you describe your relationship with Mr. Eros when he was in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Another name the Commission has heard about is Joseph Bourgault.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know Mr. Bourgault prior to the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know of him prior to the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you first meet Mr. Bourgault?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when Mr. Barber introduced you to him, was it your understanding that Mr. Barber and Mr. Bourgault knew each other?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. What did you come to learn about Mr. Bourgault after meeting him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you learn anything about his background?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What contribution did Mr. Bourgault make to the Freedom Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did he do that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In his interview with the Commission, Mr. Eros said that at some point, a Ryan Olson asked you for $100,000 to reimburse Mr. Bourgault for the hotel rooms he had paid for? Do you recall that occurring?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The next person I want to ask you about is Mr. Bauder, who testified before you.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know about Mr. Bauder prior to the Freedom Convoy 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you know about him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever watch that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any memory of what he was streaming about when you did watch?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you learn that Mr. Bauder was involved in the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point in time, did you become aware of the memorandum of understanding?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall what you were told about the memorandum of understanding?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you given ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you given any indication about what was in it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Wilson has testified, and in his interview summary, stated that members of the Board had come to him at some point in time and asked him about the memorandum and whether or not it was, for lack of a better word, legitimate. Were you part of that conversation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you interact with Mr. Bauder at all while you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we heard testimony today also from Benjamin Dichter. He testified that you two met sometime in 2017 or 2018? Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It’s possible. And then he testified that whenever you first met, that you stayed in somewhat regular contact after that? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. How would you describe the relationship between you and Mr. Dichter before the Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still consider him a friend?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Dichter testified that you asked him to take on a public relations role and messaging role? Was that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as part of that, did you give Mr. Dichter permission to post on your Twitter account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And why did you ask him to help with your Twitter account?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And the next person I want to ask you about is Mr. King. If I understand correctly, you became aware of Mr. King during United We Roll, because you would see him posting, and then you stopped following him at the end of that? Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I apologize if I did ask you this, but had you met Mr. King prior to the Freedom Convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you first meet Mr. King?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And again, I think we'll get to that in a minute. What do you understand Mr. King's role to be in the convoy prior to that conversation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up COM00000902? And while this is coming up, Ms. Lich, this is a news article that's reporting on text messages between you and Mr. Barber.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It was referenced during Mr. Barber's testimony.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And while -- before we get to my questions, we have been advised by your counsel that you no longer have access to your text messages; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What happened to them?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we go to page 3 of this article? So do you see where it says "On January 22nd"; you see there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So it says, "On January 22nd, Lich told Barber [that they needed to have --] they need to have "a very frank discussion" with King, raising concerns about past allegations against him." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall what the concerns were at this point in time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was your concern at that point?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So at this point in time, January 22nd, you were aware of Mr. King's reputation for ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- saying inflammatory things?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Controversial things?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Things that people may find racist?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Had you ever been offended by anything that Mr. King had said?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But you recognize that some people would take offence and that that could have an effect on the image of the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I thought I heard you say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that you were actually receiving messages from people who were expressing a reluctance to participate because of Mr. King's involvement; is that -- did I hear ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have a sense of how many messages you received along those lines?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And if we continue to look at the story, it goes on to say that despite the concerns we've just talked about, you said that he was needed by the movement, and then it makes a commentary about later comments, and then it quotes you -- later statements, sorry, and then it quotes you just saying, "We need him and I don't care about his past but it only takes one, [...] we have to control his rhetoric. Not even threatening to throw snowballs at [...] parliament..." When you said we need him, was that what you were referring to, that he had a lot of followers, or was there something else?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
This point in time, did you think Mr. King was participating for the right reasons?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So is that a yes?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It says here that "we have to control his rhetoric". At that point in time, did you think you had -- you stood a shot at controlling Mr. King's rhetoric?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we can pull up -- actually, before I do that, so we understand that at a certain point you had a conversation with Mr. King and that you asked him to not come to Ottawa.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you -- and so I understand that happened around January 28th; does that sound correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And describe that conversation to the Commission.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And in his testimony yesterday, Mr. King denied that you had said you need to check your ego and not come to Ottawa. Did you hear that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction to that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So ultimately, as we know, Mr. King didn't take your direction. He did come to Ottawa; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And how did you feel when you learned that he was still coming?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
To your knowledge, prior to February 14th -- and we’ll get to that later. But prior to February 14th did Pat King do or say anything that caused you concern while he was in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up HRF00001346 and then go to page 51, I believe. And again, just to give you some context while we wait, I expect the document we’ll see is a Code of Conduct for Truckers. And I’ll have some questions for you about that.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It's already dark. So if we could pull up HRF428 -- sorry, HRF 1346, page 51, and if we could zoom in a bit? So Ms. Lich, this is a document titled "Freedom Convoy 2022 Code of Conduct". Are you familiar with this document?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you describe what it is?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you recall if this was distributed?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And those were the registration forms to get reimbursement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was it distributed in any other manner?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Was anything done to proactively distribute them, for instance, to the people who were on the ground in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm not asking for a precise number in any way, shape, or form, but do you have a sense of how many you got back?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we see here in item 3, it says: "Be respectful. Everyone will have their own reasons for participating in this convoy and we need to be respectful of their reasons." What were you trying to capture in that point?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
To your knowledge, was there anyone there who was seeking to do something other than end the mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In all the people you spoke to, did anyone ever suggest that they had any other goal than ending the mandates?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what were you hearing about the MOU? I know you haven't read it, but what were you hearing about it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Item number 4 says, "Not promote harmful media."
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you consider to be harmful media?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you believe that there might be people in the convoy who may promote hateful content?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than potential actions by Antifa, were you concerned about other people potentially making or promoting hateful content?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At any point in time, to your knowledge, did any of the organizers have to do anything to -- have to take any action because there was reports of either threats, harassment, violence, or hateful conduct, or anything that you would have thought was inappropriate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if that bullet comment, whether there was -- we've heard evidence of two bullet comments from Mr. King, at least two. One was, "Trudeau, you're going to catch a bullet," and one was, "This will all end in bullets." Do you recall which one of those ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Ms. -- you can take that down now. Ms. Lich, you've watched much of these proceedings, so you've heard a lot of the evidence that we've heard about people complaining about the horns, people saying there was harassment, there was intimidation, there was unsafe settings. We've had evidence from citizens of Ottawa who said they felt unsafe in their own city. Do you have anything to say to that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Many of the protestors who testified this week have shared a similar message, talked about the positive, loving atmosphere that they experienced in the protest. Do you deny that there were incidents of harassment or incidents of intimidation or threatening like the ones we've heard? Do you deny that that happened?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When you hear the citizens of Ottawa, not all of them, I appreciate that, but when you hear some of the citizens of Ottawa say, “I felt harassed, I felt intimidated, I felt unsafe,” do you believe them?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And then once the horn injunction came in, that was now a court order.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But prior to the court order, did you have a view on the honking?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you see yourself as someone who had a level of influence over the Convoy and the protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever consider, given what you said, that you started to get annoyed at the horns, I take it you probably, at some point, understood that the horns was causing frustration to a lot of people? Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever consider taking any steps to use the respect you had to reduce or eliminate the horn honking prior to the court order?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And was it -- again, given the respect that you felt you had, and the evidence bears that out, or we’ve heard a lot of evidence on that, did you -- do you think that if you had asked the captains to take action with respect to the horns, that they would have listened to you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry, I -- had you instructed the captains to stop the horn honking?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what was the result of those discussions?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It’s okay. I’m going to move to another topic now. And I apologize. I am moving around in time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission is aware that on January 30th, you attended a press conference with Mr. Barber and Mr. Dichter. This would be before the arrival of Mr. Wilson. Do you know what I’m talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you had mentioned earlier that you were uncomfortable attending a press conference on February 2nd. Do you recall why you were comfortable attending this press conference on January 30th?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And with respect to the Taking Back our Freedoms press conference, was your understanding that mainstream media would be there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could go -- so the video -- the Commission has the video, it’s COM00000850. I’m not proposing to pull it up, because again, that would be the end of the day. But unless there’s an objection, I would like to enter it into the record. And then I’m going to ask you about the transcript, which is COM895.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up COM895 and go to page 10 of the transcript, page 11 of the PDF? So if we can scroll down? So scroll down. Stop right there. Actually, scroll up just a little bit. There we go. So an unidentified reporter asks you -- notes that: “Maxime Bernier has sort of had a rally here in downtown Ottawa today. Are you associated with him at all? Are you pleased with the support he’s given the convoy? What [are] your thoughts on that? And you respond: “We’re not associated. We took a vote as an organization, all the committee heads and the organizers. And we are not partisan. We had -- [we had] reached out to [a couple of others --] a couple of other ones reached out to us and wanted to get up and speak and we said no. That’s not what we’re about. This is a grass roots movement and no politicians are going to represent us. I mean, they’re kind of the reason we’re in this mess in the first place. Do you recall saying that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Why was it important to you that the movement was non-partisan?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as I understand what you just said there, that seeing the pan-Canadian nature of the Convoy led you to no longer be interested in an Alberta cessation?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still hold that feeling?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We’ve already referenced that Mr. Eros had an interview with the Commission and provided us some information. One of the things Mr. Eros said was that -- he suggested, I should say, in his interview, that once Mr. Wilson and the other lawyers arrived in and around February 3rd, I guess, the -- as he describes it, the western sovereigntist movement tried to take control of the narrative? Do you have -- at any point in time, did you get any sense that there was direction or influence from the people that you would have known through your time at the Maverick Party ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did anyone who you had affiliations with or know from the Maverick or Wexit Party join you in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anyone else?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you first become aware of the protests and blockades in Coutts, Alberta?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know anyone who's participating in the protests or blockades there?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were your friends there, were either of them involved in organising the protest or the blockades?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you communicating with your friends who were in Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did your friends or anyone reach out to you to request support or guidance on how to organise a protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any understanding about the makeup of the protest group at Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What did you understand their goals to be?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did your friends tell you what they were doing when they were participating?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Oh, sorry, why they were participating, to be more precise?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have any communications with any other protesters at any of the other protests in Canada that were occurring at the same time as the Ottawa protest?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anyone -- any communications with anyone in Surrey?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Emerson?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Windsor?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up HRF1294? So if you scroll down? So this is an email dated Friday, February 11th, 2022. And while it's blocked out, I believe this is an email that was sent to you; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, let's scroll up and put some context to it.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you see there on 2 days later, there's an email message from February 13th from Tamara with a signature, "Sincerely, Tamara Lich". So it appears that you're forwarding this email onto someone named Danny.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. Do you have any reason to believe you didn't receive the email down below?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And if we can scroll down? So it says, "Good afternoon, Please, we are looking for help to get in touch with an Ottawa Convoy organizer or someone who can help us. My uncle is desperately trying to organize the convoy in Windsor. Currently there is no [...] person(s) [or persons] in charge. We are in immediate need of help and direction from the Ottawa convoy organization. We are NOT looking for funds so much as support, direction and to make the connection with your convoy." And scroll down, I won't continue reading, and then it's signed by a Kathleen Thom (Hogan). Do you recognise the name Kathleen Thom or Kathleen Hogan?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if you had any other communications from Ms. Thom?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall -- does this refresh your memory at all about whether or not you received any other similar messages from anyone in Windsor or any of the other protest locations?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Now I'm going to ask you some questions about the agreement that was reached with the Mayor of Ottawa with respect to the moving of the trucks. And again, the Commission has heard a lot of evidence about that, but I have a few questions for you. When did you first come to know that it was possible that there might be the opportunity to have a discussion with the mayor? Yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so you said that was February the 11th?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as we understand it, the letters that you and the mayor exchange were on February the 12th. Does that ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- accord with your recollection?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So that happened pretty quickly; didn't it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you explain to me how you originally -- how that developed over such a short period of time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you were open to the notion of shrinking the protest footprint with an eventual view to an exit ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you have a timeline in your mind about how much longer you were willing to stay?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You heard Mr. Dichter testify earlier today I believe; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Parts of it. Okay.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, Mr. Dichter, his evidence in some summary was that he did not want to shrink the footprint, and in fact, he thought shrinking the move up to Wellington was a bad idea and it was an attempt by some people to make it easier for the police to clear the protest. Was that a view that Mr. Dichter shared with you at any point in time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall if anyone within the Board of Directors or anyone who you were talking to on a regular basis, whether there was any dissenting voices, anyone who thought this was not the right move?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Dichter also testified today that after the news of the agreement came out, he received thousands of -- I think maybe 2,000 messages of people who had concern and seemed disappointed or upset. Was that something he expressed to you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you recall receiving any negative feedback from anyone after the deal was -- became public on the 13th?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So do you recall someone specifically saying to you that Tamara's negotiating behind your backs?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And other than the road captains and the Board were the fact of the negotiations -- was that something that was discussed with the protesters more generally before the deal was entered into?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we heard today Mr. Dichter talk about the tweets that he made both from his personal account and from your account after the deal was announced publicly in the media. When did you first learn that Mr. Dichter had tweeted and then retweeted from your account that there had been no agreement?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever discuss the tweets with Mr. Dichter?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Well, then maybe the further question -- it was kind of a big deal. Do you -- I take it then, but you don’t recall any specific conversations with him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Champ suggested, I think at some point yesterday, that in addition to the tweets that you went on a Facebook live stream at some point and said that you didn’t support the deal that had been struck with the mayor. Do you have any recollection about that? Does that ring any bells?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And were you here yesterday when Mr. King testified?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so you would have seen that the Commission showed a video that Mr. Kind released after the deal had been announced in which he said there was no deal. He said it’s a lie, it’s a false flag, and told everyone to hold the line. Did you see the video at that time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When was the first time you saw that video?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What was your reaction to seeing it yesterday?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I take it he didn’t reach out to you.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And would you have expected Mr. King before coming out and saying that a deal you had entered into was a lie -- would you have expected him to come and check with you first?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you still think that Mr. King was at the protest for the right reasons?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any regret that Mr. King was associated with the convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So as everyone in this room knows, the Emergencies Act was invoked on February 14th, 2022. After the invocation of the Act what was your understanding about whether or not people could continue to protest in the red zone peacefully?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you see the flyers that have been shown in the evidence, the OPS flyers giving notice that people needed to vacate the area?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you remember seeing flyers like that at the time?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if no one came and told you you had to leave, what did you think the impact or purpose of the invocation of the Emergencies Act was?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
As one of the people who was organizing the movement, as the person who you at least identified had been held out as a leader, even if you didn’t feel that way, did you take any steps to figure out what it meant that the Emergencies Act had been invoked and what that meant for the people who were protesting and the people that you understood to be supporting your convoy?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
At that point in time was it your view that it was time to leave Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you already mentioned that you got arrested on February 17th.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can you tell the Commission what it was like to be arrested?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How has the arrest affected your life?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Take your time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Ms. Lich. Those are my questions.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, Mr. Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, at some point Commission counsel would like to provide some points of context, but if you’re still canvassing, we can wait until that’s done.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. John Mather, Commission counsel. Just two points of context. Again, we haven’t heard the evidence yet, but Commission counsel expect that while there may be some evidence given about the arrests, that’s not the focus of the -- I don’t expect it to be the focus of the evidence. The two individuals who are being called, Commission counsel understands, participated in the protest both before and after the invocation of the Emergencies Act. They are not individuals, again, as we anticipate, who identify themselves as organizers. To date, the Commission has called individuals who have identified themselves as organizers, and this is a different perspective and one that we anticipate exploring. And then the second point, Mr. Commissioner, is that there has been evidence given by police witnesses about the measured responses in terms of ending the protests in the red zone in Ottawa. These are -- some of these matters have been before the Commission and prior to today without objection.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. John Mather, Commission Counsel. The next witness is Jeremy MacKenzie. Mr. MacKenzie will be testifying via video videoconference, so if we could just make sure that Mr. MacKenzie can hear us and that we can hear him?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Good afternoon, Mr. MacKenzie, can you hear me?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
My name is John Mather. I'm one of the Commission Counsel. You are appearing today via videoconference from the Saskatoon Correctional Centre; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that you're being held in relation to charges in a matter that is unrelated to the protest in Ottawa and Coutts; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The Commission understands that you are from Nova Scotia; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And where did you grow up?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand that you were a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what rank did you achieve in the Armed Forces?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you have produced a letter through your Counsel to the Commission and it's a letter that you sent to the Senate. Do you know what I'm referring to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if we could pull up JMK00000003? Mr. MacKenzie, can you first just let me know if you can see the document on the screen and you're able to read what it says?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And is -- this is a letter that's entitled Diagolon's List of Demands to the Canadian Senate. Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, and I'll ask you some questions about Diagolon in a moment. And can you just confirm for us... If we can scroll down to the bottom. ...just again for the Commission's benefit, but also potentially yours, we see that it has a signature block for you at the bottom. And there's no signature here. Do you know if you ever signed this letter?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And do you recall when you sent it to the Senate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And sorry, and with the audio I just didn't catch that. Did you say before it was invoked or revoked?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. We can take the letter down. But Mr. MacKenzie, I'm going to ask you some questions, and if you need to look at the letter just let me know; okay?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the letter to the Senate, you describe yourself as a podcaster and a comedian. I take it that's accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And it's the Commission's understanding that you podcast under the name Raging Dissident; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And at one time you had a YouTube channel; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you know at -- do you know how many followers that YouTube channel had?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you also have a Telegram channel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how many followers have you had? I appreciate you were giving some ranges there on your Telegram channel.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on the YouTube and Telegram channel are you positing under the name Raging Dissident?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I understand that you also have an Instagram account using the name Raging Dissident; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are there any other social media that you use?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And what's the URL for that personal website?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, the one you were just referencing.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Thank you. And do you use the messaging service Slack to communicate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Have you ever used Slack?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the letter to the Senate, you identify yourself as a founding member of the People's Party of Canada. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you describe yourself as an enthusiastic supporter of the party then?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. So if we could pull up the letter to the Senate again, JMK3, and if we could scroll -- zoom in please. And just give me a moment. And continue scrolling down. Continue scrolling down, please. Stop there. It says here in your letter, Mr. MacKenzie: "I am also a founding member of the People's Party of Canada and enthusiastically supported the party through my social media." So would you at least agree with me that you enthusiastically support the People's Party of Canada through your social media? Oh. Is the -- it appears we're having some technical difficulties, so if everyone could bear with us for a moment.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the technical team said that it'll be five minutes to resolve the issue, Mr. Commissioner.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. MacKenzie, can you hear me right now?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay, thank you, and I can hear you. And apologies for the technical difficulty and I appreciate your patience while we sort it out. Before we got cut off -- and I’m not sure when you last heard me -- I had asked you whether or not you were an enthusiastic supporter of the Peoples Party of Canada and you suggested it wasn’t necessarily enthusiastic. I had then pulled up the letter that you’d sent to the Senate in which say -- and hopefully you can see it -- that you’re a founding member and you: " …enthusiastically supported the party through my social media, public speaking, and attending events held by Maxime Bernier as well as personal friends, Mark Friesen and Randy Hillier." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so I take it you agree with me that you were an enthusiastic supporter at least to the extent you wrote that in the letter to the senate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on your -- and you mentioned earlier that you are a podcaster. The Commission also understands that these podcasts are often videotaped as well, and the video is streamed; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So it’s not just an audio format when you talk about a podcast?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And on your podcasts, I take it you -- would you agree that you’re outspoken about your criticism of the federal government?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And you’re also outspoken about your criticism of the RCMP?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you were, as a general matter, opposed to the Covid-19 public health mandates that were imposed by the federal government?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And with respect to the RCMP, as I understand it, you’ve been critical of how they handled the mass casualty event in Portapique, NS, in 2020; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I’m now going to ask you some questions about Diagolon. Again, referring back to the letter you sent to the Senate, you explained to them that Diagolon is a fictional country. Is that -- at least that’s how it -- it’s origin; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And from the material the Commission’s reviewed, Diagolon, the origin of it was something you drew on your phone when you drew a line of -- over the continent of North America from the southeast to the northwest of the continent; am I describing that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So -- and I take it from reading your letter to the Senate and what you just said, you don’t take any issue and you agree that you are associated with Diagolon and the Diagolon flag?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, okay. And you talk about -- you mention there -- I think you said it began as a bit of a joke. But as I understand it, that joke has now elolved into an international community of your podcast fans; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right, and you specifically reference in your letter to the Senate that it has created an international community of your podcast fans; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And as I understand from your letter that these -- this community engages in regional meet and greets, barbeques, and family gatherings?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you mentioned a first or an initial barbeque in either the summer of 2020, 2021. After that have you attended personally any of these other meet and greets that you encouraged people to participate in?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are there other former Canadian Forces members in the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do members of the Diagolon community ever refer to themselves as bigots?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you and your followers were being called bigots? It didn’t bother you and so as a way to show it didn’t bother you, you embraced it and identify yourselves now as bigots?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is that sort of tongue in cheek sarcastic tone consistent with the sort of comedy that you perform on your podcasts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we already -- you already mentioned the Diagolon symbol or flag, and I'm going to pull it up just to confirm everyone can see what we're talking about. If we can pull up COM906? And again, Mr. Mackenzie, at any time, if you can't see anything that I put up on the screen, just let me know.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So is that you in this photograph that’s on the screen?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And fair to say that the flag in the background, that’s a Diagolon flag?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And the Commission understands that on February 15th, 2022, you said in a video that you could not wait until that flag is seen as a -- or is described as a hate symbol? Do you know what I'm talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And do you see -- and I take it then, that this is another sort of part of your comedy, wanting this to be called a hate symbol?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You sell Diagolon merchandise; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the people who were selling the merchandise, they were friends of yours?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
They sold it with your approval?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And they are also part of the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. It's not a nuanced symbol, is it, in terms of its design?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So if someone wanted to show themselves as someone who supported your podcasts or supported the Diagolon community, it would be fairly easy for them to replicate the Diagolon flag; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Mackenzie, I think what I'm about to say will not come as a surprise to you, but in fairness, I want to ask you some questions about it. The RCMP has described you in documents the Commission has received -- sorry, I should step it back -- the RCMP has described Diagolon let me be specific, has described Diagolon as a militia-like network with members that are armed and preparing for violence. The RCMP has also described Diagolon as having supporters that express sentiments akin to accelerationism, viewing a coming collapse or civil war as necessary to right the course of the country. In your letter to the Senate, you denied those sorts of allegations. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah. And in the letter to the Senate, you said that you are under RCMP scrutiny because of the criticisms that you’ve made about the RCMP and as I understand reading your letter, but please correct me if I’m wrong, I understand it -- I understand you to be saying that the RCMP sort of is looking at you closely because of the way you criticized them and that’s why they’re saying these sorts of things about you.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Moving away from what the RCMP says about Diagolon, I appreciate you wouldn’t have been able to watch the testimony, but we had Superintendent Patrick Morris, who is the head of the OPP’s Intelligence Bureau, testify. He’s not a member of the RCMP and he testified at the inquiry that Diagolon is an extremist entity that holds extremist views. I assume you also disagree with that statement.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But to be fair, Mr. MacKenzie, you don’t know what the RCMP or the OPP are relying on in their entirety when they make these assessments, do you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I was going to ask you about two terms, one of which was the plaid army, but thank you, you’ve already explained that, so we can save that question. The next term that we’ve seen a reference to is a term that you’ve used sometimes called “the beach”, and it is our understanding, but again, you can correct me if I’m wrong, that when -- sometimes when you reference “the beach”, you’re referencing D-Day in World War II. Is that accurate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You attended the protest in Ottawa in January and February 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you attended them with other members of the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
When did you arrive in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you knew the convoy was coming to Ottawa and that’s why you showed up?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And it attracted your attention because the stated purpose of the truckers coming to Ottawa was to end the federal COVI-19 mandates, and that’s a political view you also held; right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when you arrived in Ottawa, you met people there who were members of the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And presumably, if you met someone who hadn’t heard of you or hadn’t heard of Diagolon, you would tell them about it and you’d tell them about your podcasts and encourage them to listen and support?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And those business cards, they would have had the Diagolon logo on them?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did those -- sorry. You might have cut out. I asked you, did the business cards have the Diagolon logo on them?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you suggested this is something you’d do if someone came up to you, but I -- is it fair to say, Mr. MacKenzie, you’re in the media business and you want to promote your media so you would also actively hand out those cards?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you attend at any point in the protest with a person named Alex Vriend? Apologies if I’m mispronouncing the name.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And who is Alex Vriend?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And his content he posts under the name “Ferryman Stole”. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And we understand both from your letter to the Senate and some videos that your counsel submitted that when you were in Ottawa, you encouraged peaceful protesting. Is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So just to ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So just to stop there, so you wanted someone who was wearing a Diagolon symbol to act accordingly -- I guess not “accordingly” but act as appropriately and peacefully. At this point in time, were you aware that there -- either the RCMP or other police agencies would be maybe monitoring what you do or what your supporters do?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you -- when you’re giving that direction, you’re aware that the authorities are watching?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So, Mr. MacKenzie, I’m now going to read you, one by one, a list of names. And I may have some follow-up questions but all I want to know right now is, for each name, whether or not you communicated with this individual while you were -- either before you arrived in Ottawa or while you were in Ottawa; okay?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
You understand?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Tamara Lich.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Chris Barber.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
James Bauder.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Brigitte Belton.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Benjamin Dichter.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. MacKenzie, I don’t mean to interrupt and -- it’s just I want to make sure we get through it and you have time.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I just want to know right now whether you communicated with these people. Your counsel will have an opportunity if there’s other things that you want to bring up.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever communicate, either before or while you were in Ottawa, with a Tom Marazzo?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In Ottawa, how many times did you speak with Mr. Marazzo?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when was the first time you spoke with Mr. Marazzo?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So sometime before January 28th?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But -- sorry, and there’s evidence of trucks arrived but it was some point before the trucks arrived; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It was after. How long after?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Roughly, a week.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. When you were in Ottawa, did you communicate directly with any Ottawa Police or OPP?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you receive from any -- sorry, I think there was a -- did you receive, from any sources, information about police operations or police enforcement plans while you were in Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Do you remember their name on Telegram?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Other than that user, did anyone else provide information about police operations or enforcement plans?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up OPP00001668. And then if -- sorry, if we could go to page 5, please. Yeah, scroll down more. So is an OPP Intelligence brief, Mr. MacKenzie. You may have seen it with respect to some of disclosure we provided, but I assume you -- have you -- you wouldn’t have seen the document before today. I’m going to ask you, if you look at Item 2, it says -- actually, for context, look at Item 1. It talks about a video posted to -- the name is redacted but it says the name of Instagram account and it says “Raging Dissident”. So that would be you, Mr. MacKenzie ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- as far as you know?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then Item 2, again, talks about a video posted to the “Raging Dissident” account in which the poster shares information credited to police sources that disclose enforcement plans, and then it provides a bit of a description. Is that the information that the user on Telegram provided you?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. On this same -- on the same page, if you look at Item 3, it talks about on February 8th a user posted two videos to his Telegram channel, “Rage Board”. Is that your Telegram channel?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if you look there, if you -- there’s a line break and then it says again: "[Name redacted] says there’s supposed to be some negotiations taking place with a government delegate, but he hasn't heard how it went from organizers yet; he goes on state." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. Let me -- I'm talking a little quickly. I'll slow down.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, you ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And take your time. I want to make sure that you're reading this before I ask you questions. So this suggests that you were aware that there might be negotiations with a government delegate, but you hadn't heard from the organisers yet. Do you know what that's a reference to?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. How did you learn that information?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. And you're talking, then, about the part that's in bold after that, is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are you aware that Tom Marazzo met with City Manager Steve Kanellakos on February 8th, 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did Mr. Marazzo ever talk to you about meeting with Mr. Kanellakos or meeting with any government officials in any of the conversations you had?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. Have you ever spoken with Keith Wilson or Eva Chipuik?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
We can take that down. Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Mr. MacKenzie, I think you'd agree with me it's fair to say that you were critical of the Federal Government's response to the protests in Ottawa and Coutts; is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever say that the RCMP was intentionally cutting truckers off from essential supplies in Ottawa and Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so -- and did you then repeat that on your podcast?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you ever say that the RCMP made -- attempted to disrupt cell phone towers to ensure truckers could not communicate?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Fair enough. And my question right now is if you recall if that's something you said on your podcast that that was something that had been -- was being said?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And did you ever say on your podcast that -- or -- sorry, let me back up. Did you ever distribute or know of anyone distributing contact information about the members of the Ottawa Police Service?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we can pull up SSM.NSC.CAN.00001575_REL.0001. Apologies for all those digits, Mr. MacKenzie. So scroll up to the top, please, just so I can give the witness some context. So Mr. MacKenzie, this is a CSIS Analytical Brief, dated February 21st, 2022. And if we could go to page 3 of the brief, please. And scroll down a bit further, please. Scroll down a little bit further, please. So this part of the brief says that: "Since the initial weekend...key figures within Diagolon have made ...appeals for participation in and documentation of the demonstrations. Further, Vriend has been collecting donations to allow others to travel to participate in demonstration in Coutts, AB, or Ottawa, ON." Do you see that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Do you have any knowledge about whether or not Mr. Vriend was collecting donations to allow people to participate in both Coutts and Ottawa?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then if we could scroll up in this document to the, sorry, the next page up. Sorry. Sorry, keep scrolling up. Stop there. So this, again, this is a CSIS document, but it has a box here that says, In Jeremy MacKenzie's Own Words. It's -- the first one says: "'This is the good guys versus the bad guys.... The showdown has finally fucking begun and it has begun in Canada... you could go be a part of the story now.'" Is that something you've said?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And is that something you have said with respect to the protests in either Ottawa or Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And then the next quote is: "'This is the beach, get yourself out there.'" Is that something you said with respect to the protests in either Ottawa or Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And in this case, when you're using the "beach", are you referring to the analogy we spoke about with D-Day?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I've heard you say that, Mr. MacKenzie. I'm asking you if in this case when you're using the word "beach" if you're -- it's using it in the same context when you're alluding to D-Day? And the reason I'm asking this is you know that the police and the government view you -- view your group as potentially -- as extremist, and so this is the sort of thing that would grab their interest. So when you're talking about "beach" you're talking about D-Day; is that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Clerk, you can take that document down. Thank you. I now have some questions for you, Mr. MacKenzie, about the protests in Coutts. Just first, simple yes or no, did you ever travel to Coutts personally?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you know anyone who was protesting in Coutts in February 2022?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What were the names of the two comedians?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And so Chris Lysak, Mr. -- Adam Skelly, Brendan and Sam, are they members of the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If you're a fan of Diagolon, you're part of the community; right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So the answer to my question is yes?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Were you communicating with the individuals you just identified while they were in Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
How do you know Chris Lysak?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you talk to him when you were at either of those two meet and greets?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And I take it the topic of conversation at these meet and greets include the similar topics that you discuss on your podcast; is that fair?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
But presumably ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- but presumably, your fans when they meet you in person, they want to talk to you about what they hear you talking about, your podcast. That's fair; isn't it?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Can we pull up COM00000907? So, Mr. MacKenzie, can you please identify the people in this photo?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And this -- was this at the first event in Saskatchewan?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And just to be clear, Mr. MacKenzie, other than that event in Saskatchewan and then the other event in September 2021, is there any other times you met with Mr. Lysak?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Did you communicate with him at any time other than at those events?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So you spoke to him after his arrest in Coutts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And I asked you generally about the people you identified who you knew in Coutts, but with respect to Mr. Lysak specifically, did you understand him to be a fan of your podcasts?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you understood him to be a member of the Diagolon community?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Are you aware that Mr. Lysak, or at least there's been reports that Mr. Lysak had a Diagolon flag flying outside the house in which he lived with his father?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Yeah, so if we could pull up COM917? And so have you ever read this article that's on the screen, Mr. MacKenzie?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
It's an article in the Toronto Star and you're quoted in it. Do you remember giving a quote to the Toronto Star with respect to an article they were writing about Mr. Lysak?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. And if you could go down to page 3 just so I can show you just -- you'll see in the middle of the page it says, "When reached by the Star this week, MacKenzie said in an email that he'd met Chris [...] along with "thousands of people by now through my podcast and travels around the country." " Which is as you explained. So we can take that down. Mr. MacKenzie, are you aware that on February 14th the RCMP executed a search warrant in Coutts, Alberta and arrested 13 people, and as a part of that arrest, they seized several weapons and body armour? Is that something you're aware of?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And how did you become aware of that?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And when did you become aware that Mr. Lysak was one of the people who was arrested?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And are you aware that Mr. Lysak was charged with conspiracy to murder, uttering threats and possession of a weapon?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
After the arrest, as the Commission understands it, you posted a video in Ottawa where you talked about the people who'd gotten arrested in Coutts. Do you know what I'm talking about?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
What I'll do is I'll it up. I'm not going to play it for you because of our time, but if you can identify it as a video that you participated in, that would be helpful.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
COM00000911. Actually, you might just play the first maybe 30 seconds. (VIDEO PLAYBACK)
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Okay. You can stop it there.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So is that a video you posted, Mr. MacKenzie?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And you're correct, Mr. MacKenzie, the matter is before the courts, and so it is yet to be adjudicated in the appropriate setting.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
The media reports are that the people who were arrested, there was concern by the police that some of them were intending to use the weapons to harm police officers or murder police officers. Again, that is going to be dealt with another matter, but I assume if that was someone's intent, you would denounce it ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- at -- is that what -- did I hear that correctly?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
In the video -- you can take it down, thank you, Mr. Clerk -- you mention the boys in Alberta when you're talking about the arrest. Other than Mr. Lysak, do you know anyone else who got arrested in Alberta?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
I'm just -- just to be clear, I'm going to read you the names and I just want you to say yes or no, yes, I know them, no, I don't know them.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Ursula Gwen Allred?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Luke Berk?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Christopher Dean Carbert or Carbert?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Evan Banning Colenutt?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Johnson Chichow Law?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Jaclyn Francis Martin?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
And, Mr. MacKenzie, just to stop you there. I'm interested in people you knew as of ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- as of February ---
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
--- 14th, 2022.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Justin Lyle Martin?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Jerry Mitchell Troy Morin?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Easton Stewart Oler?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Anthony George Olienick?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Joanne Lyne Person?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Janx Anthon Zaremba?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. Commissioner, I’m almost done, if I could have a few more minutes, please.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Mr. MacKenzie, I’m sure you are no doubt aware that the RCMP released photos of the weapons and body armour they seized, and why don’t we pull up two photos first with COM915. And if we could just scroll out. And this is just to give you some context, Mr. MacKenzie. This is the larger photo the weapons and the ammunition and the vests that were seized. And then if we could pull up COM916. And what I’m going to show you is a photo that’s zooming in on the vest that if you’re looking at the photos to the right. I expect you know what I’m going to show you at this point, Mr. MacKenzie.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So this was -- this is a zoom- in of the photo we’re looking at, and that’s one of the pieces of -- that’s a ballistic vest, as I understand it. Is that correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. Fair enough. You see on there, there’s two patches with the Diagolon symbol; correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Right. But you agreed with me earlier, Mr. MacKenzie, that any one of your fans or anyone who is in the Diagolon community who supported you could have easily made a patch that looks just like that. Isn’t that right?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
If we could pull up -- and this will be the last document, Mr. Commissioner, PB.NSC.CAN.0008508_REL.0001. So Mr. MacKenzie, again this is a document -- this one’s from the RCMP “K” Division, and it’s a form of report about the arrests that we’ve been talking about in Coutts, Alberta. And if we can scroll down to where it says “Current situation”, it says in the second bullet point: “A ballistic vest was seized during the search warrant at the residence in Coutts which contained a patch reflective of the DIAGOLON flag. It is believed that this vest belongs to one of the accused, Christopher LYSAK. Open source information has linked LYSAK to [redacted name].” So Mr. MacKenzie, this isn’t your report, I know you didn’t produce it, but you would agree with me that from the RCMP’s perspective, they believed that the vest with the Diagolon symbol was Mr. Lysak’s; correct?
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
No, I actually withdraw the question, Mr. Commissioner. I agree that he has no -- he doesn’t know why the RCMP made their observations, so I agree with that and I withdraw it. And those are my questions. Thank you.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
So Mr. Commissioner, I’m just reviewing the document and without -- avoiding any debates about what commentary is, there are statements for some of the documents that aren’t necessarily reflective of the documents since this is the first time this photograph appeared. So again, not getting into what commentary is, Commission Counsel does have concern about that sort of statement being put in in this format. I think Commission Counsel’s view is the documents themselves, if they can be organized in a fashion where it’s just reflecting what’s in the document, that’s fine.
-
John Mather, Counsel (POEC)
Sorry. Mr. Commissioner, just for your information, this is the document that the DOJ has an outstanding objection over.