Rob Kittredge
Rob Kittredge spoke 483 times across 17 days of testimony.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Commissioner. If there is no objection, I'd like to call my colleagues up from The Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom. We had all prepared very brief introductions of ourselves and our organisations, and should come in well under the time allotted for a single party.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm Rob Kittredge. I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. And since 2010, the Justice Centre has defended the fundamental rights of Canadians through pro bono litigation. A team of Justice Centre lawyers were on the ground in Ottawa for the duration of the protests here, and our lawyers have been and continue to be involved in much of the related litigation. We look forward to continuing to defend the rights and freedoms of Canadians here at this Inquiry and holding the Government to account on its innovation of the Emergencies Act. It likely comes as no surprise that we view the invocation of the Act to have been an unjustified infringement on the fundamental rights of Canadians. I'm joined here today by my co-counsel James Manson, and my co-counsel, Hatim Kheir is following online. We will each be here in person at various times throughout the Inquiry. And I'll turn it over to my colleagues at The Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hi to both of you. I'll just have a couple of quick questions for you today and first I'll tilt them so they're facing the right direction. You discussed decibel levels with Commission Counsel during the protests. Were decibel levels ever measured inside of your apartment, Ms. Li?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
They were?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
By who?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
How did you do that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can you give me the names of those applications that you used?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can I get an undertaking? Is that possible in this context? I hadn't checked.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah, okay.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So you say you used multiple decibel apps?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And do you remember what exactly the decibel reading was?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. When speaking with Commission Counsel earlier, you began to describe how you had been pleading with the protestors, and said, "There is a certain frustration when the people that are supposed to help you aren't helping you." Do you recall making that statement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Who were the people who were supposed to help you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And what were they supposed to be doing?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
What what laws did you feel weren't being upheld?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And there just wasn't any enforcement in your mind of those laws prohibiting those behaviours?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So in essence, the complaints that you made didn't result in enforcement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you mentioned that you obtained an injunction in the context of your class action lawsuit that prohibited honking, and that for a time after the injunction was granted the honking diminished but it returned after a time.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And would it be fair to say that it returned after a time because your injunction wasn't being enforced?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you see any enforcement of your injunction?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right, those are my questions. Thank you.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning. My name is Rob Kittredge and I just have a couple of questions for you. For the sake of time, I will just address them to Ms. Carrier. Ms. Carrier, when speaking with Commission Counsel, you said that businesses were completely crippled and noted that access to loading zones, access by delivery services, et cetera, was an issue for some businesses.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'm basing that on a statement that was made to Commission Counsel that businesses were completely crippled.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Statements during the hearing.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And all of these items came from the statement. I'm aware of the issue. So would it be fair to say that from your perspective, the primary cause of these issues was congestion resulting from illegal parking in downtown streets?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But specifically, the -- I'm talking about specifically the issues with regard to access to loading zones, access by delivery services, and those sort of things, with regard to those issues, would you say the primary cause was congestion?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I think we may be in violent agreement here.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The -- I'm ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You'd say that illegal parking was the ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- proximate cause of those issues?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And does the City of Ottawa typically enforce parking laws and bylaws?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in the context of the convoy protest, there wasn't any real enforcement of parking laws and bylaws; was there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you were not satisfied with the level of enforcement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. You mentioned that unlicensed free food services were being operated on the sidewalks immediately outside Ottawa restaurants and that this negatively impacted restaurant revenues. Do you remember making that statement today?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Does the City of Ottawa typically allow unlicensed food services to operate on city sidewalks?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In the context of the convoy protest, there was no real enforcement of food licensing requirements; was there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. You also stated that you saw tents set up -- I believe this was -- oh, and I'll -- you indicated that -- or it was indicated that many businesses chose to close during the convoy protests and that this was a choice and not a requirement. Do you remember that statement being made by your colleague?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And but some businesses chose to remain open and did quite well revenue wise due to the increased foot traffic resulting from the protest; is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, those are my questions. Thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening, councillors. My name is Rob Kittredge and I’ll have just a few short questions for you today. I will direct the first couple to Councillor Fleury. You referred in your testimony to what you called “the occupation”. Would it be fair to say that when you use the term “the occupation”, you’re primarily referring to the various trucks and other vehicles that were illegally parked on downtown Ottawa streets during the protests in February?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m happy to expand that to say -- let’s ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- revisit that and say vehicles illegally parked on Ottawa streets?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you’d agree with that as - --
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- what you mean when you say “the occupation”? You’ve identified a variety of issues that arose during the convoy protests. For example, honking, downtown congestion -- Ottawa congestion, and road blockages, idling vehicles, and related smells and fumes, et cetera. Would you agree that the root cause of all of these issues was the fact that large numbers of vehicles remained illegally parked throughout Ottawa? To put it ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. If illegal parking could be stopped, what you call “the occupation” would have ended; correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In fact, the only way to end what you refer to as “the occupation” was to remove illegally parked vehicles from downtown Ottawa streets? Wouldn’t you agree?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. But once they were there, the only way to end the occupation would be to remove them from the streets; correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
To dismantle.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But a necessary element to ending the -- what you call “the occupation” would be removing the vehicles from the street?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you’d be -- sorry, I interrupted you.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But the end of the occupation came when the vehicles -- well, one of the necessary conditions was that the vehicles were removed?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you’d be happy to have the vehicles remain on the streets of Ottawa indefinitely?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You’d be okay with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. In any event, there are laws and bylaws in effect prohibiting illegal parking in the City of Ottawa? Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Generally.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But in the time leading up to the invocation of the Federal Emergencies Act, you testified that there was no enforcement of parking violations in downtown -- in the downtown Ottawa area? Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. I’ll take that. And Councillor McKenney, I just have one quick question for you. Or two quick questions, depending on how you answer. Were you involved in or aware of any discussions regarding taking legal action to enforce performance of the contracts the City had in place with tow truck drivers?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And who were those discussions with?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well I’m afraid we might have slightly more than two questions here. But were you aware of any discussions about the City taking legal action to enforce those contracts?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You weren’t? All right. And the City did not take legal action to enforce those contracts?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You’re not aware of ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. All right. Well those are my questions. Thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is Rob Kittredge and I’m counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, and I just have a couple of questions for you, and I want to start my stop watch, because I have a very limited amount of time granted to me here. I understand that approximately 34 vehicles were towed in the zone between January 28th and February 14th and some limited amount of towing took place outside of the zone during the same period. Does that sound about right to you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. To your knowledge, none of those tow trucks were damaged by protestors? Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. To your knowledge, none of the tow truck operators were assaulted by protestors? Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Some parking tickets were issued to illegally parked protest vehicles during the same time period. To your knowledge, none of the Bylaw Enforcement or police officers issuing these tickets were assaulted by protestors; were they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
They were simply surrounded and not assaulted?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. You’re not personally aware of that ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- incident? All right. You mentioned earlier that you felt that ticketing alone would not get rid of all the vehicles, that if all the ticketed vehicle owners simply didn’t care about tickets and no towing was taking place, then no trucks would move? Do you remember saying that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
While I’ll grant you that ticketing alone might not have moved every single one of the illegally parked vehicles, did it ever occur to you that mounting ticket costs might have motivated at least some of the owners of illegally parked vehicles to voluntarily move?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. And the knowledge that tickets had been issued to illegally parked vehicles on a daily or even hourly basis might have kept some vehicles from travelling to Ottawa to join the protests? Wouldn’t you agree?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. Regarding ticketing and towing outside of the red zone, you mentioned that the City was concerned that they would get the wrong people, and I understood that to mean that there was a concern that Ottawa residents might be boiled in and ticketed and towed along with the protest vehicles?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And wouldn’t the City have had authority to tow illegally parked -- to ticket and tow illegally parked vehicles whether they were part of the protests or not?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But I mean under these circumstances, where the City was being ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But the City would have had the authority to ticket and tow vehicles regardless of whether they were involved in the protests or not? Is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Thank you. You indicated that the City has a number of what you called standing offer towing contractors, but that they were all unwilling to tow protest vehicles. Do you remember saying that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did the City try and negotiate with these standing offer towing contractors?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you instructed your people to call the tow truck operators and simply ask if they would help ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- tow trucks?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you instruct your people to offer to cover any damage to the standing offer contractor’s towing vehicles.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you instruct your people to make any offers to increase compensation to standing offer towing contractors once it became clear that they weren’t willing to help?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. But don’t you think it might have made a difference to increase compensation to tow truck ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
As I recall, you mentioned that they were concerned about damage to their trucks, they were concerned about their safety, they were concerned about -- and some of them were sympathetic to the protestors, ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- essentially. Is that ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- a fair characterization?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So if they’re concerned about damage to their trucks, I would think that offering to compensate them for damage ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well we just tipped over my five minutes. So thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good evening, Mr. Arpin. My name is Rob Kittredge, and hopefully I'll be able to get in and out of here pretty quickly on a tangent that you haven't touched yet tonight. We haven't had a whole lot of opportunities to understand exactly what efforts were made by the City and by Ottawa Police to obtain towing services, and I don't mean the logistical problems of getting tow trucks in, but I mean just the refusal of towing services to honour their contracts and the difficulties trying to find once that was an issue, the difficulties trying to find towing services elsewhere. So I gather you were aware of this issue at the time?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Was the Mayor's Office involved in resolving these issues?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And maybe I'll just let you tell me why multiple providers wouldn't engage in the conflict.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But there were at least some tow truck operators operating during the protests. I mean, we know about I think something like 30 trucks being told, or vehicles I should say being towed from the zone downtown. So some tow truck providers ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Are you aware of what efforts the City made to persuade its standing order contractors to honour their contract?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You're not. You don't -- you're not aware of whether ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Are you aware of any -- whether they offered to cover any damage to vehicles?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You're not.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So details are not within your personal knowledge ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- I ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you have any sense of how many people were approached, like how many different ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- service providers or ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- how many different branches of government?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And are you aware of whether the City considered purchasing tow trucks?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You're not. All right. Well, in that case, I guess I'll just wrap up and let you get out of here as quickly as possible. Thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Ayotte. May name is Rob Kittredge and I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms and we have five exciting minutes here together today, so I’m going to plough through a number of questions. Parking tickets serve as a deterrent to illegal parking; don’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When people know that parking illegally will get them a ticket and a fine, that deters at least some people from parking illegally; doesn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’d like to understand a little more about how often Ottawa Parking enforcement people can ticket an illegally parked vehicle in the ordinary course of business. So let’s say just to pick a totally random hypothetical example, that I parked my car this morning in the middle of Wellington Street, obstructing traffic, and I left it there for two and a half weeks. Assuming that for some incomprehensible reason my car didn’t get towed, how many parking tickets could I possibly find on my windshield at the end of that period of time?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Could a parking ticket be issued daily to an illegally parked vehicle?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would you assume that probably a parking issue could be issued daily?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So it would be reasonable to say that at least one ticket per day could be ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Leaving aside the instruction from OPS to stop by-law enforcement without police instructions and accompaniment, it’s true that illegally parked vehicles weren’t ticketed anywhere near that frequently during the protests; were they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Deal. All right, I’m trying to plough through ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- five minutes worth of questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I get it; the time is tight. So tickets weren’t issued daily to illegally parked trucks during the protest; were they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If the City had ticketed illegally parked vehicles much more aggressively, don’t you think that mounting fines might have persuaded some drivers to move their vehicles?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You don’t think any drivers would have moved if more tickets were issued?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And not a single driver would have moved in the face of mounting tickets?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You said on the 29th you were instructed by OPS not to ticket in the red zone without their okay and accompaniment; on the 28th approximately how many by-law or parking enforcement officers were working in the downtown area?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So if those officers were out they might have needed 10 or 15 police officers accompanying them to do their work in the red zone?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure, but going forward ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- if they needed police accompaniment that might have meant 15 officers?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. I understand that in 2019 the City of Ottawa issued about 350,000 parking tickets; does that sound about right to you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And 250,000 in 2020 due to Covid, I guess, which breaks down to about 20,000 parking tickets per month or about 10,000 parking tickets every two weeks; doesn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Close’ish; under-estimated. But we’ve heard that only 1,700 parking tickets or so were issued in downtown during that period of time; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Over 3,000; still that’s quite a bit less than the normal 10,000 or so?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah. Ottawa By-law & Parking Enforcement officers are trained in dispute resolution and conflict de-escalation; aren’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And they received that training because in the ordinary course of business it’s not unusual for ticket recipients to behave in a less than civil manner; isn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And on any given day, protest or no protest, it’s not unheard of for ticket recipients to get aggressive with enforcement officers; is it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But no by-law or parking enforcement officers were attacked or injured by freedom movement protestors, were they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And when talking to Commission counsel earlier, you discussed the difficulties that the City had obtaining towing services from its standing offer for towing contractors and others and the efforts made to procure towing services; did the City consider offering increased compensation to towing services to encourage them to provide services?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Did the City consider buying or leasing heavy tow trucks?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. The City never used its two OC Transpo heavy towing rigs during that period of time; did they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You mentioned that heavy towing operators were concerned about driver safety and that was a big reason why services could not be procured. Light towing operators apparently didn’t share those concerns though since the City’s light towing providers continued to tow vehicles in emergency lanes; didn’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And there were no incidents of assaults, violence or injuries to towing operators during the protest, were there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much; I’ve gone about a minute and 20 seconds over, but those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Just caught a little off guard there. And for the sake of the sign language interpreters, who I'm sure I tortured a little bit yesterday, I'll try and go a little more slowly today. Good afternoon, Councillor Deans. I'm Rob Kitteredge. I represent the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom. As someone who was caught up in, as you put it, what happened in Toronto during the G20, and in some of the more egregious events addressed in the Morden Report, I was encouraged to hear that you did your best to prevent similar mistakes in overreach in Ottawa. And in furtherance of that goal, you felt that you and the OPSB might have been able to intervene to help with OPS requests for assistance from other police forces or various levels of government; is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You understood the OPS's expressed need for "additional resources" to mean that they needed additional police officers; correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But it was essentially people on the ground that was meant by resources?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did he use the word “resources” to refer to anything other than people on the ground?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, like -- I guess I’m just getting at the point that we’ve heard the word “resources” a lot today and I just want to understand what that means.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. While we’ve heard that the Criminal Code, existing By-laws, et cetera may have been somewhat limiting, the OPS didn’t express to you any specific need for any specific additional legislated powers; did they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And your understanding was that while legislative change may have been useful to the police, it wasn’t required, strictly-speaking, is that a fair characterization?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Do you feel that OPS was making effective use of the resources, personnel and equipment that they had available to them at all times during the protest?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. As a citizen of Ottawa were you satisfied with the use that they were making of the resources, personnel and equipment that they had available to them?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. And a similar question that I suspect will get a similar answer, did you feel that the OPS was effectively enforcing existing laws and by-laws at all times during the protests, given the resources available to them?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We’ve heard that during the protests there was an amendment made to the City’s idling by- law; can you tell me what the time-frame for making that change was; how quickly it was able to be done?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would it be something in the order of day?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would it be fair to say that if the OPS required further by-law amendments, these also would have been put in place very quickly?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in light of us having reached a reasonable set of agreements on my questions a few questions ago, I’ll skip this one. So how would you say that the tension between yourself and the Mayor interfered with the resolution of the process? We’ve heard a lot about the fact that there was tension, but how did it interfere with a resolution?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in that, I understand there was some tension between Chief Sloly and Bill Blair and also some in-fighting at the OPS, that may have also contributed; is that fair to say?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You would hope that Ottawa would avoid the sort of mistakes and overreach that occurred under then Chief Bill Blair’s command at the Toronto G- 20 in 2010. But OPS didn’t really have a plan to deal with the protests; the City lost control of its streets and in the event a national emergency was declared. And here we are hard at work on Ottawa’s own version of the Morden Report. As much as well-intentioned people like yourself try to apply lessons from Toronto’s G-20, you weren’t able to prevent mistakes and overreach on a similar scale; were you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, but this time the crisis was mishandled by police and all levels of government; wasn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much; that’s my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
At the outset here, I'd like to ask for leave to read a sentence from the witness' interview summary. I won't do that right away, but I figured I'd ask now so as not to disrupt whatever flow I can muster.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Acting Deputy Chief. I am Rob Kittredge, Counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedom.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
As I understand your testimony earlier, there were only two ways in which the invocation of the Emergencies Act was of use to police in ending the freedom movement protest. One, it bypassed the requirement to swear in officers from other jurisdiction, which saved a bit of time, and two, it helped to procure the services of heavy rig tow truck operators. Is that a fair characterization of your testimony?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The -- can you expand on that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Useful but not necessary?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
How much time did not having to swear in officers from other jurisdictions actually save?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Could you give -- would it be on the order of hours or days or ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So it sidesteps in paperwork and headaches and a few hours.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. I'm interested in what steps were taken by police to obtain towing services prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. Can you describe the efforts made by the City and police to procure towing services before that date?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Despite the fact that your answers may be that you weren't aware of the details, I'm going to walk you through a series of carefully crafted questions here that I don't want to throw away. How many towing service providers did the police contact?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We've heard that some towing services were concerned about driver safety. Did you offer to ensure that police would accompany towing operators to ensure their safety?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. We've heard that some towing services were concerned about damage to their vehicles. Did you offer to compensate them for damage to their vehicles?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Isn't it true that pursuant to – and it occurs to me that I'm probably torturing the sign language interpreters, so I'll slow down. So isn't it true that pursuant to the Highway Traffic Act, police officers do not require a licence to operate any motor vehicle in the performance of their duties?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I'll put it to you that it is true.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If -- so in other words, if - - you're not going to be able to answer this -- but I'll put it to you that if police officers were ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. All right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So I guess I'll skip right to the end here and say, you stated earlier that you did have tow trucks lined up and that they were on their way to Ottawa prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act; isn't that true?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And your interview summary says that OPS knew that if it arrived with tow trucks, many protestors would leave because the trucks were their home and livelihood. Do you stand by that statement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Those are my questions. Thank you.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Good afternoon, Interim Chief Bell. I’m Rob Kittredge acting for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms at these hearings and I have just a few questions for you today. And to show my hand a little bit, they’re all geared at, as you say, fleshing out and discussing the necessity of invoking the Emergencies Act. I’d like to show with these questions that, under your leadership, the OPS was quite capable of clearing the protests even if the Federal Emergencies Act was never invoked. So as I understand your testimony today, you identified four ways in which the invocation of the Emergencies Act may have been helpful to police in clearing the protest. First, it streamlined the swearing-in of officers from other jurisdictions. Second, it made it easier to procure towing services. And third, it -- the power to freeze financial accounts may have led some protestors to leave Ottawa voluntarily. Is that a fair characterization of your first three points?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Which one, the ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- power to raise ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’ll admit a little editorial work on my part there. So things were a little bit rushed at the end of your time with Commission counsel earlier and I want to make sure that I properly understand your fourth and final point, which was, basically, you said something like, “The invocation of the Act created a solid legal framework within which police could do their work.” Am I understanding you correctly to think that the framework that you’re referring to there meant the power to create an exclusion zone?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So going to your first point, streamlining the swearing-in of officers from other jurisdictions, Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson testified that saved a few hours and some paperwork; would you agree with that testimony?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So in short, though, it could likely have been done in 24 hours?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you don’t dispute that those officers could have been sworn in without emergency powers, do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So in this regard, though, the invocation of the Emergencies Act was helpful to police but not necessary, strictly speaking; is that fair to say?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right, thank you. Your second point, making it easier to access towing services, in the end, emergency powers were not used to compel any tow-truck drivers to provide services, were they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Not to your knowledge?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. And he is expected to testify to the effect that emergency powers were not needed to compel towing companies to supply trucks or drivers because by February 13th, the OPP had retained 34 tow trucks with willing drivers; do you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you wouldn’t have any reason to dispute that if that’s what he testifies?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And I guess, just to cut to the chase here, again, the invocation of the Emergencies Act was not -- was -- might have been helpful but was not necessary to police with regard to obtaining towing services; is that fair to say?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. But if it was not used, in fact -- like, if it turns out ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right, fair enough. I’ll move on. On your third point, the idea that the power to freeze financial accounts may have incentivized protesters to leave Ottawa voluntarily, you don’t have any direct knowledge of that, do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And the same with the point put to you by Canada’s counsel that the freezing order may have deterred some people from coming to Ottawa to join the protest?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, I do not.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. Okay. Thank you. And on your final point, the power to create an exclusion zone, there are other non-emergency powers police could have used to exclude people from the area; weren’t there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes. And so here again, the emergency power to create an exclusion zone may have been helpful and may have been very helpful to police, but it wasn’t, strictly speaking, necessary; was it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But in the absence of the invocation of the Emergencies Act, the OPS would have been able to clear the protests?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sorry about this. I’m a little taken by surprise by a second or two here.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Good afternoon, Supt. Bernier. I’m Rob Kittredge, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. Police have common-law powers to exclude the public from an area in which a police operation is underway; is that correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And those powers could have been used in the clearing of the protests in Ottawa, couldn’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In fact, you planned on using those powers to clear the protests and the Federal Emergency Declaration did not significantly impact your planning; is that right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, your interview summary does say that but I’ll leave it -- I’ll leave that answer as is. You would have carried out the planned police operation whether the government declared a public order emergency or not, though; is that right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Counsel for Canada, earlier on today, put it to you that, and I’m paraphrasing a bit, “You never know whether you use of a common-law exclusion zone will hold up in court if it’s challenged after the fact?” Do you remember that question?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
If police proceeded as planned and relied on common-law exclusion zone powers to clear the protest, the fact that those powers might have been challenged after the fact wouldn’t change the fact that the protests had already been cleared, would it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So would you agree that the federal emergency power to create exclusion zones may have been helpful to police but it was not necessary?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Beneficial but not necessary?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Counsel for Canada showed you a letter dated February 17th, 2022, earlier on today, which appeared to be a letter from OPP Commissioner Carrique to tow-truck drivers. You had never seen that letter before it was shown to you today; is that right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You have no direct knowledge of whether that letter was ever even sent to tow-truck drivers, do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And until you were shown the letter today, you didn’t believe that the police had used the powers granted under the Emergencies Act to compel towing services; isn’t that right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Your planning to clear the protests didn’t rely on the emergency power to compel tow-truck services; correct?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And in fact, tow trucks were already on their way to Ottawa as of February 13th, weren’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. You briefly mentioned, when speaking to counsel for Canada, that you personally saw tow trucks arriving in Canada. When did those two trucks arrive?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So by the time that February 17th letter was sent, if it ever was sent, the tow trucks were already in Ottawa, weren’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So would you agree that the federal emergency power to compel towing services may have been helpful to police, and maybe beneficial to police, but it wasn’t necessary to enable police to clear the protests, was it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you were -- by, you “were satisfied that we were good”, you were satisfied that the federal emergency power to compel tow trucks wasn’t necessary?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Interim Chief Bell testified pretty emphatically, and I quote: "In the absence of the invocation of the Emergencies Act, the OPS, the OPP, the RCMP, as part of a unified command, were going to clear the protests." Would you agree with that statement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. " In the absence of the invocation of the Emergencies Act, the OPS, the OPP, the RCMP, as part of a unified command, were going to clear the protests." Do you agree with that statement?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Numerous other OPP and OPS witnesses have testified that the federal emergency powers may have been helpful to police in various ways but they were not necessary; would you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, former Chief Sloly. My name is Rob Kittredge, and I’m counsel to the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms in these hearings. I think maybe we had all hoped that the towing question was put to rest last week but it’s starting o look like a bit of an inquiry into a purported national towing emergency, so I’ve got a few questions to ask on that subject, about what -- your conversation with counsel for Canada earlier today. You indicated that you felt that there were two main obstacles to clearing the Ottawa protest. First you needed additional resources, meaning about 1,800 people, skilled police officers and skilled associated people; and second, you needed to secure heavy towing services. Is that a fair characterization of your testimony?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. If -- so maybe on that note, I’ll skip the next two questions and jump to something a little more certain. In your conversation with counsel for Canada you said that while you may have had some concerns about their willingness to participate in clearing the protest, tow trucks were there. When you say that tow trucks were there, you’re talking about the City’s standing order towing contractors, weren’t you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So those would be the towing contractors that you typically deal with when you have towing to do on any given day.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. You weren’t directly involved in the procurement of towing services for the eventual police operation that cleared the protest, were you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And in fact, that procurement was handled by the OPP and not the OPS; isn't that true?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But you don’t have any direct knowledge related to the out of town towing services procured by the OPP at all, do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you really don’t know if there was any reason to think that the tow trucks procured by the OPP weren’t, as you put it earlier to counsel for Canada, "reliably and predictably engaged to provide towing services during the police operation", do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And the towing providers that eventually participated in the police operation had travelled long distances to Ottawa, and if the OPP was confident that they were, in fact, ready, willing, and able to participate in the towing operation, you have no reason to disagree with their opinion, would you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But you'd have no reason to disagree with their assessment?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Fair enough. And counsel for Canada also asked you about national security issues relating to the protests. I take it that you agree with the evidence from all OPP and OPS officers who have testified on the subject so far that there was no credible intelligence or evidence indicating a threat to the security of Canada as that term is defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act, do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But did you have any credible intelligence or evidence of espionage or sabotage against Canada or -- that which is detrimental to the interests of Canada or activities directed toward or in support of such espionage or sabotage?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you have any credible intelligence or evidence of foreign influenced activities within or relating to Canada that were detrimental to the interests of Canada and were clandestine or deceptive or involved a threat to any person? If you'd like me to read that again, I'm happy to do it.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So you had -- you're saying that you had credible intelligence or evidence of such a threat?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That were activities taking place beyond Canada's borders. So I mean, I guess, can you just ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, but would it be fair to describe that as you had information or a suspicion that there might be participants in the protest coming from outside of Canada and that some amount of funding might have been directed, you know, donations to the GoSendMe account or GoFundMe account or whatever ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- from outside of Canada?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So that would be the sort of -- that’s what you're talking about when you're talking about foreign influenced activities?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And there was nothing mentioned in the Hendon Report about a credible threat on that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you don’t think, as a matter of recollection, that that’s the source of your information?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. With regard to your own recollection on this subject, can you remember what the source of the information that you're talking about was?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That would be funding in the level of donations to the GoFundMe account having ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well then, I'll move on to the last two items here and I'll be finished with you for the day. So did you have credible intelligence or evidence of activities within or relating to Canada directed toward or in support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological objective within Canada?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And do you consider any social media posts to be a credible threat?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you aren't aware of any social media post that was validated and corroborated?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, thank you. And was there any credible intelligence or evidence of activities directed towards undermining by covert, unlawful acts or directed toward or intended ultimately to lead to the destruction or overthrow by violence of the constitutionally established system of government in Canada?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much, and my sympathies and my -- I'm very impressed with your sheer endurance here and on Friday.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Bauder. My name is Rob Kittredge, and I'm counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, and you, like, me, are a chatty man and a challenging witness. So I'm going to try and do the ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
---impossible here.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I agree that you are being as open as you can. But I'm going to try and persuade you to give me yes or no answers, if you can, because what we're trying to - - one of the things -- Okay. So one of the things we're trying to do here, we have a short period of time, and I am trying to construct an argument that the Emergencies Act was invoked unlawfully by Trudeau and your yes or no answers will help me to do that.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, let's see - --
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- how well we do. So what I'm looking for is a little clarification on a series of questions that my friend counsel for Canada asked you earlier on today about how you and others in Ottawa inspired other protests across Canada and around the world. You had an emotional response to those questions, as I think I would as well if I were in your position. And I just wanted to get a bit of clarification, for the record, about what inspired meant to you in that context. And again, if we can do yes or no answers, that would be great. Counsel for Canada said that when he said you, he didn't just mean you. He meant, and I quote, "the collective you," meaning you and the other people in Ottawa. Was that your understanding when you answered those questions?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
To you specifically?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. So counsel for -- I thought -- well, it doesn't matter what I think. Counsel for Canada suggested what you -- that you inspired other protests across Canada and around the world. You agree? You remember that series of questions; do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. I understood your answers and your emotional response to mean that you were proud that the protest here in Ottawa had been seen by others in Canada and around the world, and that they had independently decided to protest themselves; was that your understanding? Yeah, can you say yes for the record?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah, because it's a written transcript so.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, as do I. So while the Ottawa protesters, yourself included, may have inspired protests outside of Ottawa, you didn't organize any of those other protests; did you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
People elsewhere may have seen what you and others were doing here in Ottawa, but they independently decided to follow that example and raise their voices in protest; didn't they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And just to be, I guess, fair to you since you've been so fair to me, I have a minute or two left, if -- I was wondering if there was anything you'd like to tell us about how it felt to inspire people around the world to raise their voice?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Bauder. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hi, Mr. Deering and Ms. Braun. I'm Rob Kittredge, Counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. Mr. Deering, I think Counsel for the Ottawa Police Service asked you a question about whether you saw news reports telling you not to come to the protest area after the Emergencies Act was invoked. You replied that you weren't watching the news around that time because the media had been lying about the protest. Do you remember that question?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you saw news reports about the protest before that time; didn't you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
May have cleared some of my questions, but did you see news reports that lied about or misrepresented the protests?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did media reports suggest that the protesters were aggressive?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Racist?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Violent?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
While you were at the protests, did you see any aggression or violent behaviour from protesters?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
From the protesters.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
From the police?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Did you see any racist behaviour while you were at the protests?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Thank you. Ms. Braun, some media reports and our Prime Minister have suggested that unvaccinated people are often racist and/or misogynist. Could you tell me whether you saw any racism or misogyny from unvaccinated people or anybody else while at the protests in Ottawa?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And things were a little bit rushed at the end of your conversation with Counsel for the Convoy Organizers, but you mention in passing that during your arrest a gun was pointed at your head. Can you tell me a little more about that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Which end of the gun was pointed at your head?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And who was pointing it at your head?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, Rob Kittredge for the Justice Centre. We have no questions for this witness. And to the extent it may be necessary, we’ll cede our time to Mr. Miller.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Good afternoon, Mr. Stewart, and Mr. Rochon. I’m Rob Kittredge, representing the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. And I only have five minutes today, so just to make efficient use of my time, I’m going to direct my questions to Mr. Stewart. So I apologize for leaving you out. Can we bring up Document SSM.CAN.1096_REL.0001, please? And this is the document that my friend representing the convoy organizers was trying to show you earlier on when he ran out of time. Mr. Stewart, the Liberal Research Bureau, an entity within the Liberal Party that receives government funds, conducts research, and provides briefs to support the liberal party politicians, Ministers, and MPs; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. You’re not familiar with the Liberal Research Bureau at all?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you’ve never heard of it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You have no idea at all what it does?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. So this document on the screen, would you agree that it appears to be a brief preparing MPs as to what they should say in response to the motion and in debate in response to the motion to support the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Can we scroll to page 4, please? Towards the bottom of page 4. And you can see here at the bottom of page 4, it outlines the CPC’s position, the BQ’s position, and the NPD’s position, which it indicates that the NDP will support the motion? Would you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And in your dealings with the Ministers and elected executives, they told you that before the Emergencies Act was invoked, they already had the support of the NDP to uphold the invocation; didn’t they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When did you first learn that the NDP were going to support the invocation of the Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Are you aware of any polling that was done to assess public support for the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. And moving on a little bit, numerous witnesses from the OPP and the OPS have testified that the invocation of the Act may have been helpful, but it was not necessary to clear the protests. Would you agree with them on that point?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Useful tools, but not necessary tools?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
When discussing the invocation of the Act in an email on the night of February 14th, you indicated that the emergency powers didn’t bring a lot of significant benefits; didn’t you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But you were -- at that point, you were having trouble even coming up with examples of how the emergency powers might be useful in clearing the protests; weren’t you?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But you were running out of ideas on how it might be useful?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Provincial powers at that point hadn’t been exhausted, had they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You would? Your interview summary indicates that you thought that the power to compel tow trucks was important. Do you remember that?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But really, you have no personal knowledge of whether that power was actually necessary to clear the protests; do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You have no knowledge at all of whether tow trucks had already been retained by the OPP prior to the invocation of the Act; do you?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you have no direct knowledge of whether the power to compel tow trucks was useful to police anywhere in Canada; do you, really?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Similarly, while you suggest that the Declaration of Emergency, the financial measures, and the other emergency powers may have acted as a deterrent, you don’t actually have any direct knowledge of that; do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you’d speculate that the invocation of the Act had a deterrent effect, but you don’t actually know that?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Pardon me?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you’d speculate that it was effective?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So you have no real direct knowledge that it did have that effect, you just speculate that it had that effect?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Hi, Ms. Thomas. I'm Rob Kittredge, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. I only have 10 minutes with you today, and I'm going to try and cover a fair amount of territory. So to the extent possible if you can give me a yes or no questions or yes or no answers that would be very helpful. Obviously, answer where you have to, but if we can plow through this that would be great. I imagine your job comes with a pretty high level of security clearance. Would you -- would it be fair to say that there is no intelligence information that Cabinet or the PM is cleared to see that you can't see?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You attended the Incident Response Group meetings where the invocation of the Emergencies Act was considered and regularly briefed the PM on national security issues during the period leading up to the invocation of the Act; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You would know about any protests, associated acts or threats of serious violence that Cabinet, the IRG, and the Prime Minister knew about when they were considering whether to invoke the Emergencies Act; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Not necessarily.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Cabinet, the IRG, and the Prime Minister were aware that CSIS had determined that the protests didn't pose a threat to the security of Canada, as that term is defined in the CSIS Act.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Cabinet, the IRG, and the Prime Minister were aware that CSIS was concerned that invoking the Emergencies Act risked further inflaming IMVE rhetoric and could give rise to a risk of serious rhetoric. Is that true?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. You're not aware of any acts of serious violence associated with the protests in Ottawa or at border crossings, are you?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And -- I mean, when you say "continual violence", what kind of level of violence are you talking about?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, but not serious violence?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But you can't point me to an example of an incident of serious violence.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. There wasn't any espionage associated with the protests or blockades was there?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And there wasn't any sabotage?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. and CSIS found no indication of foreign state interference at the protests, and you don't have any reason to disagree with their assessment do you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Your interview summary says: "The [National Security and Intelligence Advisor] assesses intelligence, [and] advises the Prime Minister on national and international threats to the security of Canada..." When you use the term "threats to the security of Canada" there, that's used in a general sense and not in the restrictive sense set out in section 2 of the CSIS Act; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. In other words, in your role as National Security and Intelligence Advisor, you're not governed by the CSIS Act.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. But your assessment of what a threat to the security ---
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- of Canada isn't governed by the CSIS Act. You advise the Prime Minister on anything you consider to be a threat to the security of Canada, whether those threats meet the definition set out in section 2 of the CSIS Act or not; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But what you consider a threat that's worth bringing to the attention of the Prime Minister might be something that doesn't strictly fall into the limited definition of section 2 of the CSIS Act; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure. But you're not as restricted in scope as ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- CSIS is? Okay. In the time leading up to the invocation of the Emergencies Act, you felt that the protests in Ottawa and at border crossings constituted a threat to the security of Canada; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But not in the sense contemplated in section 2 of the CSIS Act?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. In your interview summary, you say that: "CSIS's legal mandate obliges it to assess threats to national security through a very narrow lens." (As read) Do you remember saying that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that narrow lens, basically boils down to the definition of threat to the security of Canada, as set out in section 2; right?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. I -- if I'm understanding your testimony earlier, it's you -- your -- it's your opinion that the Emergencies Act doesn't require a section 2 threat to the national security of Canada.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So does a section 2 CSIS Act threat to the security of Canada have to exist in order for a Public Order Emergency to exist under the Emergencies Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Well, I guess I'd like to walk you through the Emergencies Act and maybe see if I can persuade you that the answer is not no.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. But I just want to show you the section of ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- the Act and we'll see where we get.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But you don’t mind my showing it to ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- I imagine? All right. Mr. Clerk, can we pull up the Emergencies Act? It's CCF00007. When did you first read the Emergencies Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Which would be when?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And when did you first read the CSIS Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah. Okay. Can you take us to the section of the Emergencies Act that defines a Public Order Emergency?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
There we go. So if we look at the definition of Public Order Emergency, can you read that to us, that paragraph that starts with "Public Order Emergency" in bold?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, please.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And the next paragraph.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So on a plain reading, not a legal interpretation, but on a plain reading, doesn’t that say to you that the circumstances that constitute the emergency have to arise from a section 2 ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- Security of Canada?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I mean, it's a fairly plain English reading, but I suppose ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough, fair enough. All right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. Fair enough. I guess what, beyond that definition, would you say is a threat to the security of Canada?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, but those aren't mentioned in section 2 of the ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- CSIS Act.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. But those aren't mentioned in section 2 of the CSIS Act? All right. Fair enough. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Minister Blair, I'm Rob Kittredge, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, and we share a standing at these hearings with the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom. You understand that in order to declare a Public Order Emergency pursuant to the Emergencies Act there must be a threat to the security of Canada as that term is defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And I guess let's put that definition up on the screen, please, just for reference. COM935, section 2. Are you familiar with the section 2 CSIS Act definition of a threat to the security of Canada?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
CSIS themselves advised Cabinet that the protests didn't pose a section 2 CSIS Act threat. You were aware of their assessment, weren't you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Then ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In the interest of just trying to -- I'm hoping to understand your thinking a little bit better, and in the interest of trying to do that in five minutes, if you can help us get through this in, you know, shorter answers wherever possible that would be really appreciated. You -- looking at this definition here, you haven't raised any concerns about espionage, sabotage, foreign interference, or a credible threat to overthrow the Government of Canada associated with the protests, have you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Well, you ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay, fair enough.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You outlined several concerns to Commission Counsel earlier, disruptions to supply chains, impacts on the flow of goods and services, disruptions to transportation, disruptions at the border, et cetera. These things may be undesirable and they may have an impact on Canadians, but they aren't in and of themselves serious violence, are they?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It's a very serious issue ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- but it's not serious violence in and of itself. I mean, you spent a time ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- earlier on today speaking to Commission Counsel about your concerns about the protests, and you outlined concerns like the impact of the disruption to supply chains on Canadians ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- and you spent quite a bit of time on that.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You didn't spend much time identifying any ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- real concerns about serious violence ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- did you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Intimidation and fear aren't in and of themselves ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, I mean in the interests of getting me through this in five minutes and giving me a chance to ask ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, it's true. It's true. Intimidation and fear in and of themselves, though, aren't serious violence. I mean, the experience of intimidation and fear, serious violence means something, doesn't it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You say ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And it didn't did it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But writing municipal bylaw tickets didn't incite a violent response did it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- can I just ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- there has been a lot said here in the last couple of minutes, and I'm probably -- I'm very close to if not over my time here. But I'd guess I'd like ask you, you're making a lot of noise about intimidation and threats of violence, but can you point me to any particular specific threat of violence or event as violent?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, I appreciate that, but I'm just trying to cut through this and get an answer out of you.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. The definition in Section 2 of the CSIS Act of a threat to the security of Canada doesn’t capture everything that you, in your capacity as a Minister of Emergency Preparedness, would consider to be a threat to the security of Canada, does it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
But you would say that in your -- in your occupation as Minister of Emergency Preparedness, this sets the limit of what you would consider to be a threat to the security of Canada, Section 2 of the CSIS Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. And just a final question, it’s your belief that this definition here in Section 2 of the CSIS Act applies differently to CSIS than it does in the context of the Emergencies Act, right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So the ---
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- Emergencies Act uses a different definition of a threat to the security of Canada than the CSIC Act does?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner? Commissioner, if I may, just a couple of comments before lunch. Rob Kittredge for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms. I just wanted to express regarding the removal of my friend Mr. Miller this morning, I wanted to express the Justice Centre's position on asking that you make a decision about his return to the room during the lunch break, and express our support for his room -- or for his return to the room at the earliest convenience. I'm a big supporter of constructive communication, and I understand that may not have taken place this morning, but I think his clients have a right to representation here and we'd like to support his ability to cross-examine Mr. Mendicino today. If you can make that decision at lunch, that would be very much appreciated on our part.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well, thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, I believe we’ve been ceded 10 minutes by the Convoy Organizers, so that tacks me up to 15 minutes.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right, thank you.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Minister Anand, I’m ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
We’re a bit loosey-goosey. Minister Anand, I’m Rob Kittredge, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms and we share standing at these hearing with the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom. I take it you’d agree with me that the public order emergency declaration earlier this year did not meet the requirements for such a declaration set out in the Emergencies Act, wouldn’t you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You don’t agree. There’d be no particular reason for you to remember but the last time we saw each other you were Professor Anand and I was working on a B- in Business Associations, just figured I’d drop that in there. And I guess I’d like to start out with a bit of a chat about the principle of cabinet solidarity. As Minister of National Defence, you’re a member of cabinet and the Privy Council; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And on November -- and somewhere around November of 2019 when you were sworn in, you took the Oath of the Members of the Privy Council; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And can we pull that up? It’s POE.JCF00000001.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you? Okay, perfect. And all of the cabinet ministers appearing before this Commission took the same oath; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m sure. And the prime minister takes that oath as well; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
You swore to speak your mind and express your opinions on issues before cabinet freely and fully in private meetings, debates, and conversations with your cabinet colleagues; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And that -- that -- the principle of cabinet confidence is in there, where you swore your oath to secrecy and -- or you’re swearing yourself to secrecy in there. That’s the principle of cabinet confidence; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you’re anticipating some of my questions here, and the next one certainly, because -- and that’s because once cabinet policy is presented to the public, those -- that policy is the agreed collective decision of all members of the cabinet; right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. In fact, from a constitutional perspective, cabinet decisions are, in effect, your decisions, aren’t they?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you -- wouldn’t say they’re “your” decisions but you’re certainly party to the decisions?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. The invocation of the Emergencies Act this year was a cabinet decision; wasn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So it was a collective decision that was, in part, your decision?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And you can’t publicly repudiate or criticize it, can you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, but if you felt differently, you couldn’t repudiate or criticize the decision unless you stepped down from your post as minister?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
The government has waived certain aspects of Cabinet confidence with regard to these proceedings. For example, as you know, some records have been produced that could have been withheld on Cabinet confidence grounds. This has been a partial selective waiver, and Cabinet confidence has been used to keep some evidence from being put before the Commission, but there hasn’t been any waiver of Cabinet solidarity, has there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I asked you at the outset whether you agreed that the Public Order Emergency declaration earlier this year did not meet the requirements for such a declaration as set out in the Emergencies Act, and you disagreed. If you had agreed with me, you would have to resign your Cabinet post, wouldn't you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Do you understand the principle of Cabinet solidarity?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right, and that if you disagree or repudiate those decisions, you have to resign your position as a Cabinet minister, right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So you're saying that you don’t understand that Cabinet ministers cannot repudiate the decisions of Cabinet without resigning their post as Cabinet minister?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I can respect the response, I guess, but you -- so are you saying that you are free to criticize and repudiate the decisions of Cabinet without resigning your post?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
At all times in private Cabinet meetings you are free to express yourself, but in public, if you repudiate or disagree with the decisions of Cabinet, you're not allowed to say that publicly, are you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Well, I find it relevant, and I see no objections from my friends.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough. At any point -- well, I've read your interview summary and listened to your testimony today, and until we started talking about this, there wasn’t any clear statement in support of the invocation of the Emergencies Act. At any point since February 14th, have you considered resigning your post as Minister of National Defence?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. I'd like to show you a document. Can we please pull up SSM.CAN.00007851_REL0001? So this is a text message exchange that came up earlier today between Minister Lametti and Minister Mendicino in which they discuss making a request to you for tanks to be deployed in Ottawa. Minister Mendicino asks, "How many tanks --" oh, maybe that’s not it. Do you need the number again?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, there we go.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Sure, sure. Minister Mendicino asks how many tanks Minister Lametti would like deployed and Minister Lametti reckons that just one will do. Do you agree with Minister Lametti that one tank would have been sufficient to deal with the Canadians who had gathered in Ottawa to express their grievances about government policy?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Could we scroll up to the top of this? So can you read the date at the top of this message exchange?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Can you read it aloud for us, please?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
No, I'm sorry, not the full text. I won't put you through that. I just meant the date at the very top.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. And Minister Lametti earlier on in testimony to this Commission wrote the exchange off as a joke between friends. Do you think this is a joke?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But at the same time, on February 2nd, just a few days after the arrival of the protesters in Ottawa, this was the sort of joke that was considered funny among your Cabinet colleagues, wasn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Does Cabinet solidarity require you to find this joke funny? I'm sorry, that was a little frivolous. So just one final set of a couple of questions. After Minister Lametti wrote this off as a joke, he changed the subject and he went -- moved on to talking about how bringing in the CAF was a last resort, even more so than the Emergencies Act, which he characterized as a second-last resort. That’s not precisely accurate, is it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
That the Emergencies Act is - - I'm sorry, that bringing in the CAF is the last resort and the Emergencies Act is the second-last resort.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well, the Emergencies Act requires that an emergency be such that it can't be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada. Would you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I can show it to you, if you'd like.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Okay. It's section 3, the end bit of section 3.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah. All right, thank you. The National Defence Act is a law of Canada, wouldn't you agree?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Those are my questions.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Nonetheless, the Emergencies Act, as a precondition, requires that a matter can't be dealt with under any other law of Canada, and I'm asking you, the National Defence Act is a law of Canada, isn't it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Would you agree that the National Defence Act is a statute of Canada, a Canadian statute?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And so you would agree that the National Defence Act is a law of Canada?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yes, I would agree with that.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right.
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And just as one final question to kind of clarify my understanding of your testimony here, are you telling me that the National Defence Act is not a law of Canada?
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Thank you very much. Have a great day.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Well good morning, Mr. Prime Minister. I’d like to quickly circle back -- -
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Oh, I’m sorry. Good morning, Mr. ---
-
Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I’m Rob Kittredge for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms and we share standing at these hearings with the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom. I’d like to circle back to a bit of a constitutional conversation I had the other day. Cabinet confidentiality, the principle that Members of Cabinet are free to express their opinions on issues before Cabinet fully in private meetings and discussions with you and their Cabinet colleagues, are you familiar with that principle?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And the principle of Cabinet solidarity, where once decisions are presented to the public or to Parliament, they are collective decisions of Cabinet and can’t be repudiated or criticized by your Ministers, and if they were to do that, they would have to resign their post?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
All right. Tow trucks have come up a lot at this Commission, and my friends and the Commissioner know me by now as a bit of a towing aficionado. It’s bene a while since I brought up the subject, but I thought maybe you and I could have a little talk about. As you know, in order to legitimately and legally declare a public order emergency pursuant to the Emergencies Act, the purported emergency cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada. You’re taking the position that the emergency declaration was justified in part because towing services were required and could not be procured? Is that accurate?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. But towing service procurement was part of that total picture that you’re talking about; wasn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So one of the measures that you put in place through the emergencies measures regulations was an ability to compel tow truck drivers to provide towing services; wasn’t it?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So I would say that would be a fairly significant part of the reason why you would have had to invoke the Emergencies Act. Wouldn’t you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
It was one of a handful of powers that you created using the emergency measures regulations. Is that right?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
So I would say it’s relatively important. Would you agree with that?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Certainly relevant to the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And that would be one the ways that the emergency couldn’t have been effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada; wouldn’t you say?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And you in fact put that power into the emergency measures regulations?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And so a discussion of tow trucks is relevant to this discussion we’re having right now?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
And we talked about Cabinet solidarity earlier. There’s been a waiver of Cabinet confidence, the related -- partial waiver, I should say, of Cabinet confidence and the related principle that would have allowed you to withhold documents from this Commission. You’ve disclosed quite a few. And would you say you’ve been pretty transparent with the Commission?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Great. So you wanted to make sure that the relevant matters were visible to Canadians. Can I pull up POE.JCF.2, please? So this is a document, as it’s coming up, we’ve been having a bit of argument over the last little while about some redactions that were made in the documents disclosed by my friends for Canada. And there was some disputes about Parliamentary privilege and irrelevance. But in this particular document, I’d like you to take a look at -- this first document was what was originally disclosed, and this document, the second one, had some redactions removed that -- and those documents were ordered disclosed last night and were -- Canada took the position last night that there were -- there was reason to insist on this -- that this redaction -- or that this document be produced -- not be produced unredacted. But I wonder if maybe you could -- and at the end of the day, this was produced at 10:26 a.m. this morning, so I’m a little more unprepared for this cross than I normally am. But I wonder if you could look at that first redaction on the original disclosure and see if you could see the reason for the redaction that’s highlighted in the black box there?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. So I’m looking at the irrelevant one. Could you identify on the other side what information was blacked out as irrelevant by your government?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Yeah. And wouldn’t you say that discussion of tow trucks was relevant to the discussion we’re having here today?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Well I think we will be. But in any event, I would put it to you that tow trucks weren’t in fact required, that the power to compel tow trucks was not used for anything other than convenience, and that tow trucks had been secured at all important locations prior to the invocation of the Emergencies Act. And I’ve got to say, it’s interesting to close on this tow truck point. I hadn’t expected that to happen. But would you agree with me that tow trucks weren’t in fact needed at the time of the invocation of the Act?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Well I would respond by saying that the evidence so far has shown that while the -- while, strictly speaking, there was an invocation or there was a use of that power under the Act by the OPP. It was basically used as a method to ensure that ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
--- the payment was made ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
In any event ---
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Fair enough.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
I think we're burying the lead a little bit here, and I'll ask you again. You would agree that a discussion of tow trucks and information about tow trucks is relevant to the work of the Commission and the discussion we're having here today; wouldn't you?
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Right. Well, thank you very much.
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Rob Kittredge, Counsel (DF / CfF / JCCF)
Commissioner, my friend is asking some leading questions here. Subject to section 58 of the Rules of Procedure, if he could ask more open-ended questions, that would be appreciated.