Paul Champ
Paul Champ spoke 1468 times across 19 days of testimony.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Commissioner. My name is Paul Champ, and I am counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I'm here with my colleagues, Christine Johnson and Emilie Taman. The Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses are community associations of people who live in Downtown Ottawa, as well as the business improvement areas of the different business sectors that were impacted by the Freedom Convoy protests in January and February. The groups came together because their interest in this Inquiry, Commissioner, is simply to have the story told. We can tell you it's just blocks from here, well, right this street. But blocks from here are the people who lived here. There are approximately 15,000 residents who live in this downtown core. People see the Parliament buildings, and they think this is all government and so forth in Downtown Ottawa, but there are people, there are children, there are schools, there's a public elementary school that's about six blocks from here. And the impact on Ottawa for those three weeks of harassment, street blockages, ear-splitting air and train horns, and general lawlessness was unprecedented. The nation's capital is naturally a site for demonstrations and protests on a wide range of issues, and these protests are not simply tolerated by the people of Downtown Ottawa, they're celebrated. People who live in Ottawa are very proud that they're the site of protest and government and the exercise of fundamental freedoms and democratic participation. Some Ottawa people participate in the protests sometimes, sometimes they don't, but they're always happy that these events are happening. But the Freedom Convoy protests that took place here were of a shape and form that were totally unprecedented, and had a severe impact on those who live and work and do business in Ottawa. Many people in Ottawa felt like they were prisoners in their own home, and they felt abandoned and they felt unsafe by the police and by all the levels of government. There were breakdowns in governance here between city, province, federal government, whomever. The interests of the Coalition is not to point out fingers, it's to get answers and to ensure this doesn't happen again. The Ottawa Coalition is not going to take a position, we don't anticipate, on the Emergencies Act, but make no mistake it was a crisis in Downtown Ottawa. There was disorder, there was chaos, there were propane tanks, there were gasoline jerry cans everywhere, there were fireworks going off at all hours of the night, pinging off buildings, pinging off windows. People could not get a -- there was no public services. Paramedics, ambulances, no busses, no taxis, grocery stores were closed. Businesses, several hundreds of businesses are closed. The Rideau Centre, the major mall in Ottawa, was closed for the first in its history for a prolonged period of time. The people in Ottawa are still traumatised, Commissioner, they're bewildered, they're upset, and I can say, Commissioner, these 30 days that you have, we could have residents line up every day to testify to tell you their stories. People who are elderly, people who have young children, people who have disabilities, and just anyone. Trying to feel safe in your own home with those horns going from 6 to 7:00 a.m. until 11:00 p.m. at night, or even later, and not just like a "honk, honk", like prolonged holding of those air horns. Four hundred commercial trucks congregated in Downtown Ottawa, and the people felt abandoned by their authorities. It's going to take a while for this city to heal internally. There's been a breakdown in trust in the local authorities and officials, and every level of government. And we're looking forward to hearing the evidence. We're looking forward to hopefully getting some answers factually about what happened and what were the breakdowns. And, you know, most importantly, that there's recommendations that hopefully come from this proceeding to ensure that, you know, serious disruptions to people's lives in Ottawa never occurs again, while at the same time, we absolutely are protecting and celebrating and ensuring that the right to protest and assemble are not unduly interfered with in future. Thank you very much, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just have a few questions for both of you. Ms. De La Ronde, can you just confirm approximately how long have you been living in Downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And have you experienced or observed other protests or demonstrations in Downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. You told us, Ms. De La Ronde, about being concerned about wearing headphones or earplugs, about knocks on your door, about smoke, or maybe not hearing alarms. Why did you have that particular concern?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Ms. De La Ronde, you told us a bit about the diesel fumes. Was that diesel fumes that you would just smell outside on the street, or did you smell them in your apartment?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you do anything about that after the protests were over?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Ms. De La Ronde, you told us a bit about the honking and how you experienced that. After the protests were over, what was your experiences with honking sounds?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In the immediate days and weeks after the end of the demonstrations, what was your experiences with horns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by phantom smells or horns, meaning they're not there, but that's what you ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Ms. De La Ronde. Ms. Li, I just have a few questions for you. There were some questions put to you about Councillor McKenney and a Member of Provincial Parliament, Mr. Harden. Had you ever had any interactions with them or met them prior to the class action being commenced?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there were some questions put to you about the injunction and what impact it had on the horns. On the day of the injunction argument of Monday, February the 7th, were you observing that hearing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you observing or listening to anything else before or after that injunction hearing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what --- you were watching something online? What was it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- what did that livestream person, what did they say about the injunction; do you recall?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you hear any -- did you notice or observe any connection with that statement on the livestream video and what was going on outside?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were following or observing some of the social media of some of the protest organisers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
After the injunction was obtained, you told us about listening to a social media stream on that date. Did you hear or observe any other social media streams by convoy organisers speaking about the injunction after February the 7th?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And let what rip?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And after observing that, did you notice any difference in the horns out in the street?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Ms. Li, just a couple -- final couple of questions. When we -- when you talked about measuring the decibel levels, where were you measuring that, was that on the street, or was it in your home?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And your apartment, don't tell us which floor, but is it above or below a 10th floor?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. You told us a bit about bonfires, seeing bonfires. We're unsure if we’ll get any evidence about this from the Ottawa Police, but just from what your observations were, what were the bonfires like?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. And then finally, you responded to a question from Ottawa Police Council about that, you had expressed or were thankful that the police were managing this situation. What situation did you feel that they were managing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what about it on the streets, did you think they were managing it from your observation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, those are all the questions I have.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Kevin and Nathalie.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think you're going to be a TikTok star after your performance today.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Kevin, to start with, a couple of questions for you. WE heard that some businesses did stay open, you know, not which -- you know, notwithstanding the different people coming in with masks and so forth. Did you hear from your members or have any information about how those businesses felt they did revenue-wise as compared to they might at other times?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And just to confirm, I'm not sure if it's been clarified precisely in the evidence so far, at the time of the first weekend of the convoy there had been a complete lockdown; stores and restaurants weren't allowed to be open; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then after, when they were allowed to open, public health regulations around the mandatory of wearing a mask was still in place; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you told us that -- about some businesses concerned about being open because of having to enforce the mask public health guideline?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did some of them encounter other issues making it difficult for them to open? For example, staff being able to make it to their location?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- you told us that some of the information that you were told to get from the Ottawa Police was by following social media and so forth ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- of the police. Can you recall, were the Ottawa Police putting out any guidelines or advisories with respect to the population generally in Ottawa about going downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thanks. I'm going to ask you a question about a document, and I'll just the registrar if they can put it up. It was the OPS document ending in 3228. It's OPS 3228. And when you get it up, I want to go to page 6. While we're waiting for that to get up, Kevin, you had mentioned about Google reviews.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I've heard about a local law firm that has suddenly seen their ratings plummet from these one star reviews. Have any of your members heard of any way to correct that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just to follow on. If you followed up with Google several times about that, any other tips or guide?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thanks. Okay, great. So this is OPS 3228. Can you roll to the -- just the end of this page? Okay, just stop there, actually: "So our community police officers are in touch with Downtown BIAs in providing with updates to expect large crowds and traffic obstruction." (As read) So that was the information that was put to you by the Ottawa Police Council. Can you just go down, keep going down? Keep going. Okay, here. Here, this is internal Ottawa Police. They're talking about what information should be provided to BIAs: "Hi Julie. Do you know if OPS is or will be in discussion with some of the BIAs that could be see big impacts?" (As read) And I think this is about January 25th.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
"I recall OPS having these types of discussions for previous events, is that the case for this event? (As read) So just on that, when there's other big events that are happening, or big demonstrations, or protests, does OPS share information with the BIAs typically about road shutdowns or interruption in service or bus routes and stuff like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thanks, Kevin. Nathalie, I just have a couple questions for you. Just to assist some of the people and some of the counsel who may not be from Ottawa, I think there might be some misconceptions about where Coventry Road and the location, the parking lot where all those trucks were set up, where that is in relation to downtown Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it's -- okay. So it's ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And we've heard some reference at -- or we will hear reference about a red zone, that the Ottawa Police was calling the red zone. Where was the red zone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Roughly.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Coventry Road was about five kilometres from the red zone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the continuous honking, was that going on at Coventry in the same way as it was in the red zone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, like, it appeared that some people would go to the red zone and then go back ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- to come back for a respite from ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and you told us a bit about permits and so forth, you know, permits for tents, for example. You were mentioning about, like, engineering that to be checked for -- why would they be checked for engineering because of ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And these permits, what is your understanding of the purpose of these permits? Is it just a way for the city to generate revenue, or do they serve -- -
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, my last ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Can I ask one last question or am I ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You had told us, Nathalie, about the interaction with Chief Sloly and your recollection of what he said. Is there some reason why that resonated so much to you? Or actually, I should put it another way.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, and thank you, Commissioner, for the indulgence.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
: The only thing I’d say, Commissioner, I think we’re allotted 30 minutes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
: So I’m not sure if we -- just because of the timing, I’m not sure if you're suggesting for us to start and then break part way through. My preference would be to do all of ours at once.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
: It would be my preference not to do my full 30 right at this moment.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’m just going to set my time, my stopwatch, Commissioner, to make sure I’m on time or under time. Thank you, Councillors, so much for joining us today. I’m just going to go through ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. Paul Champ, legal counsel for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, representing community associations and business improvement areas in downtown Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillor Fleury, I’m going to take you through a few emails and I’d ask the hearing clerk to call them up. The first one is OTT2779. And while that’s being brought up, I just want to ask you, Councillor Fleury, I get the sense from your testimony, do you feel that the occupation in downtown Ottawa wasn’t getting the attention it deserved from the Mayor of Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
From your perspective.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did the Mayor reach out to you personally at any time about to ask you how things were going with you? We’ve heard about these awful threats to your family. At any point did he reach out to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well but like is there any of the personal concern? The human touch? Anything like that between yourself and the Mayor during that time? That difficult time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. We’ve got an email here that’s Ottawa 2779. This is an email from February the 2nd from yourself to the Mayor, and a number of other people, Serge Arpin, that’s his Chief of Staff is my understanding, and Steve Kanellakos, City Manager, Kim Ayotte, and Councillor McKenney. This is you that sent that email at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Expressing the concern for your constituents?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And now at the end -- so you laid out a lot of the issues there. In the end, you ask him, “Please consider the following,” you know, four points that you’re hoping they’d consider. Did you get a response to this email?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Could I ask to get Document Ottawa 3893? Great. So this is just a series of emails. If we go to page 2, near the bottom, we see that you’re getting an email here, Councillor Fleury -- a bit lower, lower, there we go. So you’re getting an email from a Mr. Brian O'Hoski. Who is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And he’s reaching out to you, “Hi Mathieu.” So you interact with him fairly frequently?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so he’s asking you, “Is it safe or unsafe to open and operate the Rideau Centre? Is there a way to leverage support of OPP or RCMP? Our accountability is to our paying tenants. For five and a half days we’ve been unable to meet that requirement.” (As read) Then we see an email from you just a bit further up, rolling up this time, yeah, thank you, to: “Hi, Steve, Mathieu, Kim, and Chief Sloly, please below see two clear questions from Rideau Centre. Can City and OPS please respond?” (As read) And why did you send this to -- that’s Steve Kanellakos, City Manager, I gather? Kim Ayotte, that’s Head of Bylaw and Emergency Services, Chief Sloly, -- and who is Mathieu Gravel?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mayor’s staff. Okay. And then if you will just keep rolling up, we’ll see the response that you get: “I forwarded your request to the Councillor Liaison Office.” (As read) That’s Kim Ayotte. That’s the Head of Emergency Operations? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And he says: “We need to follow a process as we are getting hammered.” (As read) Did you know what Mr. Ayotte meant by that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And then you respond: “McKenney and I are both most impacted. I am not flooding your mailbox. Rideau Centre is not just any business. Thank you for your attention to this matter.” (As read) I interpret that as that the communications with Mr. Ayotte was starting to get a little tense. Is that how it was from your perspective, Councillor Fleury?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Hearing Clerk, can we get Ottawa 5511? Oh yeah, thank you. And the next page, sorry. Rolling down. Rolling down a bit further. There we go. So here’s an email from Genevieve Dumas from Fairmont. Who is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And to Steve Ball? Who is Mr. Ball.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In this email, Ms. Dumas is talking about a sprinkler failure that started a fire alarm and flood in her elevators, and then raises the concern that: “The fire truck couldn’t make it to the hotel. This would be the same case for ambulance. So all hotel in this radius is most likely in this same situation. It could be a major issue in case of real emergencies.” (As read) This is the situation you were telling us about before? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then at page 1, we see -- so rolling up. There’s a picture there that we’re rolling up. And you said: “Hi, Chief. See below. What can we do? These seem to be extremely dangerous, life safety, and emergency response challenges. Not sure why OPS wouldn’t have accessed Château Laurier via Saint Patrick and Mackenzie Avenue.” (As read) Did you ever get a substantive response to that, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Hearing Clerk, Ottawa 8282. Thank you very much. And I’ll take you on this one to the third page, if I could, Hearing Clerk. Keep going. Yeah, there we go. Perfect. There we go. So this is an email from Mr. Brian O’Hoski again from the Rideau Centre to yourself and Andrew Peck, that’s with the Downtown Rideau BIA, on February 15th. And here, Mr. O’Hoski is setting out that issue, he’s setting out a number of issues, problems with the Rideau/Sussex intersection. And then he says: “On a side note, Lamoureux Pumping had parked a red pick-up truck in my underground parking with a diesel fuel supply tank in the back and protesters were going back and forth filling portable gas cans and carrying them out to the demonstration.” (As read) The last sentence is: “That truck is still in my parking lot and I was not supported by bylaw. It’s been over 24 hours.” (As read) That’s the incident you were telling us about before, Councillor Fleury?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Then you get an email from the Council Liaison saying, “Hello, Councillor Fleury,” and then a few other things. And then it says: “The tow was booked for this evening. However, the vehicle left the parking lot beforehand. We’ll continue to monitor the situation.” (As read) And your response to that is -- if you roll up? That’s great right there. No, down a bit. “Thanks for the support, Mat. Obviously I’m glad the truck is gone, but this does raise some major concerns for us. Between the three groups, OPS, Bylaw, and Regulatory Services, still couldn’t manage to tow a single pedestrian vehicle that was engaged in illegal activity from a private lot in a 36-hour window.” (As read) So that was your understanding? It was there for 36 hours?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank God no one was injured there. You then -- or pardon me, that’s actually from Mr. O’Hoski. That’s not you. That’s Mr. -- that’s the Rideau Centre saying that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You then forward that on to Mr. Ayotte: “See below from the Rideau Centre. What should I answer him? I think he raises a fair point.” (As read) And Mr. Ayotte then writes this longish sort of email to you, and you respond -- if you just go up a bit, roll up, there’s the long from Mr. Ayotte, and then just roll up just a little bit more there. Great. And you just, in a one word -- sentence in response, that says: “I don’t believe this to be satisfactory.” (As read) What was -- why weren’t you happy with that email or why did you find it to be unsatisfactory?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then Mr. Ayotte responds: “This is the answer and I’ll leave it up to you to decide if you want to send it.” (As read) So was that a little bit of the tone of your communications with your own Manager of Emergency Operations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Ottawa 7352. Great. And just roll down a little bit. Perfect. So this is an email that you received from Mr. O’Hoski again on February 15th about -- raising concerns about the Rideau -- sorry, that was the one we just had.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sorry about that. Apologies. But just up a bit. “Hi Diane and Deputy Chief Bell.” So you decided after those exchanges with Ms. Ayotte, you wanted to forward it on to Ms. Deans, the Chair of the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Deputy Chief Bell; why did you send it on to them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just for time, Councillor, there’s a couple of other documents I was going to put to you but I’m not going to do that, about some concerns about schools, that there was some concerns that schools are raising about the convoy, or it seems to be convoy associated trucks. Can you just tell us what you knew about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillor McKenney, on that issue, on schools in your ward, were you hearing concerns about that from those schools or parents with children in those schools?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
About six blocks?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Pat King, that’s one of the organizers that we’ll be hearing from later in the Inquiry. If I could get document Ottawa 30002. Now, Councillors, while I’m waiting for this document, I want to ask you both about like the diesel fumes and so forth that was happening downtown. I’ll just ask you first, Councillor Fleury, were you hearing anything from City staff about any concerns about air quality or the health impacts of diesel fumes in downtown Ottawa from these 400 odd trucks arriving all the time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Councillor McKenney, the same for you. Were you hearing from City staff about issues around air quality because of the diesel fumes in downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what about -- but were you hearing from residents about what they were experiencing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So this document that I’ve pulled up, it’s an email that you guys did not get, but we see some of the people in on the to’s and the from’s, a Kelly Cochrane, a Todd Piper, Trisha Karam -- that was with the Ottawa Police –- Staff Roberts of the police, Michelle Ferguson with Ottawa. Do you know some of those people, are you familiar with any of those officials or police officers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So this is an email that was sent, disclosed by the City of Ottawa, sent on February the 18th: “Subject: Message from Ottawa Public Health Regarding Convoy- related Air Quality Concerns” and the author writes: “Good morning; sharing with you messaging that OPH ...” (As read) Ottawa Public Health: “... requested that we share with our colleagues who are working or travelling in the P-Z.” (As read) I’m not sure if you know what -- is that a City acronym or something, the P-Z”?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And here is a long email; you’ve had a chance to see this and then I’ll be sharing -- that there’s concerns here about the air quality and about the health impacts from Health Canada as noted, as well as Ottawa Public Health. Had that information been shared with you at the time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
About the potential: “... the protest become entrenched and had become an ongoing occupation and potential risk and exposure of diesel exhaust and well documented health concerns has increased for those in the impacted areas. As a result, we would like to bring this to your attention and ask that you share this with any agency conducting health and safety risk assessments during the event.” (As read) So that wasn’t brought to your attention?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillor McKenney, can I get a document, Ottawa OTT364? While we’re waiting for that, I’d just like to ask you, Councillor Fleury, you’ve told us a bit about the personal impact to you and it was after you had gone on social media talking about fundraising; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right. And who were you trying to communicate to when you put that message out on social media?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were referring to the millions of dollars that was being raised on gofundme to support and keep the protestors here in Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were looking for some solutions, and whether the City could do something to stop the flow of that money to those individuals?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right. And then how far did that social media go that you heard about?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We have this document up, Councillor McKenney, it’s an email from a Jessica Bradley; who is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And this is an email on February the 4th, 2022, “Subject: Block through Centertown” and it’s addressed “Catherine, Sean and Jeff”; those are two other City Councillors saying: “I’m writing this morning to strongly encourage you not to move forward with your planned walk through Centretown today.” (As read) Just for time, not to go through the whole thing, but what was the message you were getting from Councillor Dean’s office as the representative from the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillor Fleury, there’s one other question I was going to ask you about the By-law, and both of you a little bit. The way you were kind of describing it, outside the red zone there was some enforcement of by-law that you were observing but it seemed to be selective?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A bit of selective enforcement that it seems trucks associated with the convey weren’t getting tickets but residents in Ottawa were getting tickets?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’d like to get document Ottawa 29762. Now, Councillors, I want to ask you about one big event that occurred part way through, and that was the removal of the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board, and another member of the Police Services Board by motion, and then -- which led to then a few others resigning. That event, as you may recall, there was an Ottawa City Council meeting on February 16th, 2022. We’ve got the in-camera minutes now for that. You participated in that debate that day?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillors, this was a motion brought by one of your colleagues, Councillor Moffatt, to remove Councillor Deans from the Police Services Board? Is that right, Councillor Fleury?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Councillor McKenney, you participated in that debate that day?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And just for point of time, we’ve seen some of the comments that you’ve made, both of you, but I do have one -- or a couple of questions for each of you. If I could go to page 4? And down near the bottom. Yeah, that’s perfect. You’ll see there: “Councillor McKenney noted that save for a few councillors that had reached out to them and offered help, other members had done nothing. They indicated they’d not received any calls from the City Manager or the General Manager of Emergency, Protected Services. The councillor noted that Councillor Deans had reached out. Councillor McKenney expressed opposition to the motion to remove members from the Ottawa Police Board, arguing it was a power grab.” (As read) Can you tell us -- oh, I apologize, it goes over to the next page. Sorry.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Scroll down to the next page. I apologize. Can you tell us, what was the point that you were making there, Councillor McKenney? What was your concern about the removal of the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board in the middle of this crisis in the city?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Do you recall how much did you have about this motion and what its objective or purpose was?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And this has been -- sorry, Councillor Fleury.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And so just the context was that the Chief had resigned, Chief Sloly had resigned, and then the Board had reached an agreement with another retired chief from another police services and wanted him to come in just on an interim or short-term basis to lead the police service and some people were concerned, “Well why don’t we just have the Deputy Chief Bell remain as interim chief?” That was the sort of -- that was the context?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And your view is, why bring in someone else? Just have Deputy Chief Bell stay in charge?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Can you recall what Councillor Deans said about why she didn’t want to leave Deputy Chief Bell in charge as chief? Did she have any concerns with his leadership at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Councillor McKenney?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had asked, Councillor Fleury, about, well, what was the Board going to do if the former chief had not resigned? Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And do you recall what Councillor Deans said to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were asking well what -- if Sloly didn’t resign. If Chief Sloly didn’t ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- resign, what were you going to do? Or did you have concerns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
She said something like, “Well we did have concerns he didn’t have a plan.”
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Could I get document OTT 8026? Now, this is an email that we’re beginning up, Councillor McKenney, that you sent on February 17th Deputy-- well, Interim Chief Bell at this point. And you say: “There is significant police action this morning. Should residents in Centretown be sheltering in place? Should they evacuate today? What are we doing to keep kids in schools safe? Has anything been communicated to people affected by the movement against this occupation?” (As read) And then we’ll see there’s an exchange up there that you weren’t in on between Robyn Guest and Serge Arpin. It’s a good question. Did you get an answer to your good question?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Can you recall what he said to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Could I get document OTT 25001? I’m hoping I got that right. I recognize I’m just about out of time, Commissioner. Councillor McKenney, I was going to ask you about access to groceries and grocery stores. Do I have the right one here? Yeah, it is. Just before I get into this document, there’s two major grocery stores in your ward? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And it’s the Independent at Somerset and Bank and ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- the Farm Boy at Metcalfe and Gloucester, I guess? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Nepean.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did they stay open throughout the occupation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did they close at any time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Independent ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They just closed down their parking ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- their underground parking lot? Commissioner, I’m just going to respect the time and those are all the questions. Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For the record, the Organizers owe us all, I think ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos. My name is Paul Champ. I am the counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, Community Associations and BIAs from downton.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'll start off, Mr. Kanellakos, asking you about the information that was known by the City before the protest started. Now you told us that the information the City got, you know, the hotels and so forth, you shared that with the OPS or the Ottawa Police Service, but then the OPS provided you and the City with an assessment that they thought it was only going to be three days or so; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But there was some information, even in the hands of the City, to suggest that this protest could or would go on for much longer than three days; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And but the -- I understand the City police did not view that -- they didn't think that's what was going to happen, but did they tell the City about any contingency plans in the event the protest did go on for longer?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you have concerns about that? Did you ask for any contingency plans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were aware, Mr. Kanellakos, that you were saying, you know, the numbers vary, and you never quite know about who shows up, but in this particular case, you were aware that a very large number of people were coming from very far away and a large number of trucks. You were aware that those people were coming to Ottawa for several days; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So the City of Ottawa just relied essentially completely on the Ottawa Police for their assessment of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And unfortunately, we now know that that confidence was misplaced; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in terms of the response, you know, allowing the trucks to come downtown, the trucks to park on Wellington Street, you've told us that that was all based on the call of the Ottawa Police? That was their decisions and their decisions alone to make; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the City of Ottawa was essentially at the mercy of the Ottawa Police and their decisions on these issues; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now in terms of protecting the people of Ottawa, that's a responsibility of the City of Ottawa as well as the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the safety and security of the people of Ottawa, whatever the threats or cause of those risks may be, whether it's from propane tanks, or open fires, or potential crime, that's protecting the safety and security of the people of Ottawa is responsibility of the Ottawa Police and the City of Ottawa; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now on the decision to allow the trucks -- to have the commercial trucks come in and park, you've told us that there was a legal opinion, the city of -- or the Ottawa Police were telling there's a legal opinion that under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that these commercial trucks had the right of mobility to come and park anywhere they wanted. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So they couldn't prevent them from coming in because of the Charter of Rights, that's what you were hearing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, okay. So you did hear that from internal meetings. And did you ask your own City solicitor to provide you with an opinion on that issue?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And why was that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mr. Kanellakos, I'm not talking about the strategy and tactics, I'm just talking about this first point, about their opinion that the -- they couldn't -- they didn't have legal authority to stop the trucks, perhaps, because of the Charter. You and the -- you did not instruct your City of Ottawa Council to look into that issue; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had occasion, we've heard evidence, to deal with federal government officials and provincial government officials, including ministers. Did any of them ever express a view about whether the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects commercial trucks?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In your evidence, though, Mr. Kanellakos, this morning you were telling us that even by the second weekend, when there was -- you were hopeful that perhaps the police would stop more trucks from coming in the second weekend, but that again they told you that because of the Charter they didn't have the legal authority to stop the trucks from coming in. So by the second weekend that was still your understanding of ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- what the police were telling you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you a couple of questions about this event/protest distinction. So events, those are things where there's -- someone's holding a celebration or marking a day or whatnot, and they want to go into a park or a parking lot or some -- it can be a private location, it can be a public location, all these things, if they want to put up tents, if they wanted to have a large number of food served. All of those things they need to get permits from the City; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we've heard evidence, and we understand that, though, for protests, the City does not require protests, or pardon me, do not require permits because that's an exercise of Charter Rights and Freedoms; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does the City have -- but if someone puts on an event and they don't get a permit the City will shut them down quite quickly; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm not talking about protesting.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. Protests versus event. But for an event, you'll shut them down?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
On Friday, one of our clients testified, the Director of the Vanier BIA, that they put on events all the time, and they understand very well the types of permits they need, and they also said about the purpose of permits is often about safety. Whether you're putting up a big tent, there has to be adhering requirements and so forth. So it's all about safety, correct, permits?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so the City has in mind some difference between a protest and event?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- now, do protests typically have fireworks and tents?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or barbeques or hot tubs?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or stages and dance parties?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They sound a bit more like an event, would you agree with me, Mr. Kanellakos, those kinds of things?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the impacts, Mr. Kanellakos. It was your view that a lot of these different activities that were going on in Downtown Ottawa were presenting a serious danger and threat in the safety and security of the people of Ottawa; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And we also know that it substantially interfered with a lot of the public services, of garbage pickup; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The firetrucks had difficulty getting downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We heard about one incident with the Chateau Laurier that firetrucks couldn't get to them. You're aware of that event?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It wasn't true?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Really?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I'm sure the general manager at the Chateau Laurier will find your evidence interesting, Mr. Kanellakos. What about the gas truck underneath the Rideau Centre? That was a serious risk and danger; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It wasn't a risk or a threat to have ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- a truck of fuel in an underground parking lot? That wasn't a threat?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you can review the emails yourself, sir. I believe the Rideau Centre did believe it was quite a risk and a threat.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- the paramedics sometimes had difficulty getting downtown; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about garbage services? They were basically not happening at all in that area; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In the red zone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about homecare services? Homecare service was also stopped in the red zone; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, people who live in their home who have mobility or other physical disability issues who require homecare services. Those services ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- were interrupted.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So some of our most vulnerable and disadvantaged citizens were put at risk; is that right, Mr. Kanellakos?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And snow removal was also delayed?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And there was also all kinds of large numbers of fake 9-1-1 and 3-1-1 calls; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That interrupted or interfered with our services in Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The hospitals of Ottawa also reached out to the City of Ottawa about concerns that they were having interference with their services because of emergency calls being jammed, and also about difficulties of their workers even getting into the hospital, also patients having difficulty getting in for critical treatments; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's true. Okay. Now, I just want to ask you a bit about your meetings with the organisers. Now, you said to us that you spoke with Mayor Watson to say that the PLT had reached out to you and had suggested this, and Mayor Watson did not have an opinion. Well initially he was reluctant, but ultimately he didn't instruct you one way or the other; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then you met later that day with Mr. Marazzo, Mr. Wilson, and Ms. Chipuik; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in that meeting, you told them that if they could do some things for you, you could arrange a meeting with the Mayor; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it sounds there like Mayor Watson did tell you he was open to those negotiations; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, I guess we'll hear from the protestors of what their understanding, but you're telling us now, today, is that you did not say you could get a meeting with the Mayor, you said you'd try to get a meeting with the Mayor?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you referred to Mr. Marazzo as Tom. Did you know Mr. Marazzo before then?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had -- you've had a number of interactions with him after that; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Now, you also told us that in meetings with federal government officials and also with the provincial solicitor general, there were concerns raised about the Ottawa Police Operational plans; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They felt it wasn't fully fleshed out, and so on and so forth?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now -- and you shared that with Mayor Watson?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He was in on some of the meetings I believe?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. Did you share that information with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why not, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if you're hearing that there's a serious concern -- and so just to take one step back. Your understanding from those federal and provincial officials is that one of the reasons why there was a delay in the deployment of the RCMP and the OPP was because there were concerns with the OPS plans; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And that was delaying their deployment of their ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've told us before that those additional resources were essential to bringing this occupation to an end; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- so again, sir, why didn't you share that information with the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn't think it was important for the Police Services Board to be aware that other police services were telling you and the Mayor that there were concerns with the Operational plans of the police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. With respect to Ontario, I think you suggest to us that it seemed to be that there was a high level of indifference to the City of Ottawa’s plight from Provincial Government officials? Is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- you told us about, in terms of the meetings with the organizers, you later had some interactions with Dean French; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. French, in your interactions with him, was it your understanding that he was aligned with the protestors? That he was representing the protestors?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Mr. French was the recent former Chief of Staff to Premier Ford? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. French was representing and was sympathetic to the protestors?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we’ll hear some evidence later that he thought they were patriots. But I’m just wondering if you ever had a sense that perhaps Premier Ford had some sympathy for these protestors and that was the reason why they weren’t cooperating?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, but you did give us evidence earlier, Mr. Kanellakos, that you had some sense that Deputy Ministers at the provincial level weren’t interacting with you or providing all the assistance they perhaps could, perhaps because of direction from their political masters; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And just the last question or last narrow area, just on the injunction. So the Ottawa Police on January 30th, Chief Sloly said that he would like the City of Ottawa to pursue an injunction; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- but you felt that -- or not felt. It was your understanding the Ottawa Police was not providing sufficient information to your solicitors? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you gave instructions to your solicitors though to proceed with an injunction at some point?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in terms of the Li injunction, the Zexi Li injunction, were you aware that the City of Ottawa Police, the Ottawa Police, were cooperating with Ms. Li’s counsel in framing the injunction order and assisting with that process?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you don’t know why the Ottawa Police would be cooperating with Ms. Li, but as you say now, not providing information ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And were you aware that Ms. Li was also reaching out to the City of Ottawa for assistance in their injunction? Were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So during -- when you say not at that time, not during the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you didn’t give instructions to City of Ottawa counsel, Mr. White and others, not to provide information or assist Ms. Li in her ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank -- oh, thank you, Mr. Kanellakos.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening now, Mr. Arpin. My name is Paul Champ. I’m counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have a few questions for you. The first thing I’d like to know, Mr. Arpin, is what were you told about why commercial trucks were allowed to enter downtown and park and get entrenched?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And Mr. Arpin, you’ve given us testimony earlier today that the Mayor and yourself had communications with people at the Federal Government level, Ministers, and their Chiefs of Staff, as well as at the Provincial level in Solicitor Jones’ office, and Mr. Wallace, the Premier’s office, where those other levels of government were expressing concerns with the Ottawa Police plans, or lack of plan, for -- their operational plans for dealing with the protestors, and that was some of the reasons why the OPP and RCMP were delayed in their deployment. Is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But what were they telling you? That’s what you told us earlier today.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. But -- okay. Sorry. But the Federal Government did express that they were hearing that there was a lack of confidence in the OPS plan?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And did you communicate this to Ms. Deans, the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when did you communicate that to her? Like, shortly after hearing it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I’ll just move to the negotiations with the organizers. So it’s my understanding that on February the 10th, there was an initial meeting with yourself, the Mayor, and Mr. Kanellakos, where Mr. Kanellakos was explaining that the Police Liaison Team was suggesting ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- perhaps ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sorry, February 8th. Where perhaps there should be some discussions or negotiations between the Mayor or the Mayor’s Office and the organizers, and Mayor Watson was reluctant? Is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So in that first interaction or that first discussion with Mr. Kanellakos, you and the Mayor left it open that if Mr. Kanellakos, after speaking with them, thought there was some constructive dialogue, that perhaps that was an avenue that could be explored and the Mayor meeting could ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And then it was a day or two later that there was the -- you had got the contact with Mr. Dean French and then the negotiations moved forward? Is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. French called Mayor Watson directly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He had his number?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then that led to the negotiations of meetings with the protestors, not with -- but with Mr. Kanellakos on behalf of the Mayor?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you felt then that there was also a green light from the Ottawa Police for you to work with Mr. French to try to come up with a deal?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M'hm.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So on February the 8th, the PLT says, you know, maybe some contact or possible negotiations with the mayor would be a good idea, but then after that, you never had any direct communications with the PLT or the Ottawa Police ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- on that matter; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so when you worked out a deal with Mr. French, that was without any direct input or guidance from the Ottawa Police; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- and ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And when you were coming up with Mayor Watson's letter to Ms. Leach, you in fact shared that with Mr. French, so he could give you some input on what should be in it; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you had time to share with Mr. French but you did not have time to share it with Chief Sloly or anyone at the Ottawa Police; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you had time to share with Mr. French, but you did not have time to share with the Ottawa Police or Chief Sloly; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn't share it; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so you're saying that you directed Mr. Kanellakos to share it with the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so when you're negotiating on the residential areas that they should be removed, what residential areas did you understand that the trucks would be moving from?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by all, what did you understand that to mean?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think some of the documents we're going to see later, or it's my understanding the Organizers will be testifying that their understanding was that it was just the areas south of Slater Street on Metcalf and south of Slater on Lyon, and that there needed to be an emergency lane on Kent, because up until then there had been no emergency ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you had ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So when you had your negotiations with Mr. French, is that what you're saying everywhere -- every other location except for Wellington?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you wanted all 400 trucks gone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so when Councillor McKenney attended that City Council meeting on February the 16th broadcasting, showing on Kent that their trucks didn't seem to have moved one inch from that street, that was still the case -- -
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were -- no. On the removal of the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board, you -- the Council cannot remove a Chief of Police; correct, the City Council?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So when you were communicating with Ms. Deans that there might be a motion by City Council to remove Chief Sloly, they couldn't remove Chief Sloly; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on February the 16th, you said that there -- this is when there was this call with Mayor Watson and yourself and Ms. Deans, when Ms. Deans informed the mayor about the plan going forward, that Sloly had resigned and that they'd reached an agreement with Mr. Torigian to be the Interim Chief; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was the -- February 16th is the date that the Chair was removed, and the Police Services Board was largely -- all City Councillor members removed; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And it was then started -- the process started in the morning with a phone call with Mayor Watson and Ms. Deans and yourself; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That's helpful, Mr. Arpin, because that's not in your statement, so I could not have known that. And in the meeting on the morning you're ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. You've told us that Ms. Deans said in that phone call with Mayor Watson that she had not reached an agreement with Mr. Torigian; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And then in your -- it's my understanding you're saying that later in the day you learned that in fact she had signed a contract. How did you learn that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But, Mr. Arpin, you gave instructions to the City solicitor, Mr. White, to start preparing a motion to remove Ms. Deans that morning; didn't you? Right after the call with ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right after the call.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize. I don't have the document number, but there's the emails of Mr. White and the other City Council -- or the other City solicitors preparing the motion at around 11 a.m. that same morning.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, that's when they prepared it, so when did you -- it was you that gave instructions to Mr. White ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- to prepare the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If I can finish my question, thank you, sir.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And if you could, sir, just please answer my questions yes or no. Did you give instructions to Mr. White to prepare the motion to remove Ms. Deans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who did, Mr. -- Mayor Watson?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So at the time of the call between Mayor Watson and Ms. Deans, you had already pre-emptively discussed with City Council staff to prepare a motion to remove Ms. Deans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Commissioner, I apologise. If I could just have two more minutes. It's getting to the -- one of the key points for us here.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Arpin, it's true that Ms. Deans did not have Mayor Watson's phone number; correct? If she ever wanted to communicate with him it had to be through you; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir, it's not for you to determine what's irrelevant, it's for your to answer my question, sir. Did she not have his phone number? When she wanted to communicate with him it was through you; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I'll ask Mayor Watson tomorrow about which city councillors have his phone number. But it's also the case Councillor McKenney does not have his phone number, just cannot ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- speak to him directly; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Of Councillor McKenney's ward, harassment of her constituents, fires at every intersection, so forth, did you discuss with Mayor Watson perhaps giving them a call to offer some moral support or any other assistance that Councillor McKenney may need? Because Councillor McKenney has testified that they never heard once from the Mayor throughout that. Did you discuss that issue with the Mayor?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you don't know why the Mayor -- did you consider advising the Mayor it might be a good idea or a demonstration of leadership to reach out to Councillor McKenney, whose ward was experiencing this unprecedented occupation of their ward?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because you know, Mr. Arpin, there is a little bit of animosity between Mayor Watson and Councillor McKenney; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It is indeed.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It is indeed.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not on the same team. That's fair. And similar with Ms. Deans, also a little bit of hostility, not on the same team, correct, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Arpin, during the occupation of Ottawa for three weeks, were we not all on the same team?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm not sure if Ms. Deans will testify to that since she has ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For Councillor McKenney, were we not all on the same team as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- but he knew better than the other councillors, that's why ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner My name is Paul Champ, Mayor Watson. I ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- represent the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have a few questions for you, Mayor, following on your testimony. One question that you just answered to previous counsel, you’d indicated that there was no indication that this protest was going to last. But wasn’t it true, Mayor Watson, that we were aware that -- by the time they arrived in Ottawa, even that first weekend, that they had raised several millions of dollars on GoFundMe to, you know, keep providing them with fuel, and food, and other resources? We knew about that, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Another question or area I wanted to ask you about is your communications with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board. Now, it’s my understanding, Mayor Watson, that you and Ms. Deans, the Chair, you, generally speaking, wouldn’t communicate directly. It would be through your Chief of Staff, Mr. Arpin; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You and Ms. Deans, she doesn’t have your phone number; the two of you don’t directly; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, while we’re on it, Dean French, he’s got your phone number, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You -- throughout this protest, you’ve told us that you would have regular communications with Chief Sloly; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, yeah, and that’s what I -- that was my next question. How much or how often would you speak with his deputies -- Deputy -- Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson and Deputy Chief Bell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were getting some information from Chief Sloly and sometimes from his delegates, primarily Deputy Chief Bell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And Deputy Chief Bell had your phone number?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How would the two of you connect?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what about Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, how often did you speak to her?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, we heard your testimony, Mayor Watson, that you were hearing from both the federal level and the provincial level that there were some concerns about the Ottawa Police Services’ operational plans to bring an end to the occupation; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’d heard a little bit that because of some dispute or disagreement about the OPS operational plans, this was causing some delay in the deployment of boots on the ground?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No injuries or anything like that when the plan finally unrolled. I think I agree with you, Mayor Watson.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think everyone in downtown Ottawa is quite grateful to those police and their services.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to some of the concerns or disagreements of the OPS plans that you were hearing, there was some disagreement in the command structure or something like that; is that what you said you were hearing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware, Mayor Watson, were you not, that there was -- we'll Chief Sloly no doubt was doing his best to serve the people of Ottawa that during his tenure, you were aware he was experiencing some difficulties with conflicts and friction in the ranks of the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just stepping back a bit about the information you were receiving from the provincial and federal levels about concerns with the OPS plans, we've heard from Mr. Arpin that neither he nor yourself shared that information with Councillor Deans, the Chair of the Board. Can you tell us why you didn’t share that information with Councillor Deans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the Ottawa Police Services Board, you're aware, they're responsible for the direction and for directing the chief and monitoring his performance? You're aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was your concern with maintaining confidentiality with the prime minister and the premier? That’s why you didn’t want to share that information with the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn’t think that that information might be helpful for the Board to know when they were having their interactions with the chief?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You testified this morning, Mayor Watson, that -- words to the effect that from a leadership point of view, the more information you have to share with partners, the better. And it's important for everyone to be singing from the hymnbook, I think you said, or all on the same team. Following those comments, Mayor Watson, don’t you think it would have been helpful for the Board to know that you were hearing from different levels of government that there were concerns with the Ottawa Police operational plans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Lowertown.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you some questions about the negotiations with the convoy organizers. I believe you testified, Mayor Watson, that the first you heard about potential contact was on February the 8th, that Mr. Kanellakos approached you and indicated that a police liaison team had suggested that it might be helpful if there were some discussions between the mayor and the convoy organizers; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then after Mr. Kanellakos had some contact or had a meeting with some of them, he then reported back to you that the meetings had gone generally well; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The first meeting that Mr. Kanellakos had with the convoy organizers, their two counsel and Mr. Marazzo?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then it was approximately two days later, on February 10th, that you had your first conversation with Mr. French; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then that led to negotiations roughly over about two days that come up with those two letters between yourself and Ms. Lich?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had a number of conversations with Mr. French; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then Mr. Arpin and Mr. Kanellakos, they took over the communications with Mr. French in negotiating that deal with Ms. Lich and the other organizers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In your two conversations with Mr. French, he indicated to you that he was aligned with the protesters, that he shared their point of view on many issues?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. French. He indicated to you he was aligned ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- with the protesters?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He didn't suggest to you that he saw the protesters as patriots or anything like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now so then you hand over the matter, the file to Mr. Arpin to work out some kind of deal; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And did you give any direction to Mr. Arpin to interface or work with the Ottawa Police in his negotiation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So there's the initial contact on February the 8th through the PLT or the Police Liaison Team and ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- then the contact was -- with Mr. French is on the 10th and then the letters are worked out on the 12th, I think finally exchanged on the 13th.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Between the 8th and the 12th, do you know when Chief Sloly and Deputy Chief Bell were informed that Mr. French was involved and you were working on negotiations ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Deputy Chief Bell was in your boardroom at City Hall and was talking about it with you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. Arpin have experience in hostage negotiations or anything like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Do you know what background experience he had to negotiate a deal like this?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mayor Watson, I just want to ask you just a little bit about your relationship with other City Councillors. You told us that every Councillor felt overwhelmed, and under siege, and, you know, was getting a barrage of emails from residents and so forth. But you'd agree with me, Mayor Watson, the City Councillors for Sommerset and Rideau Vanier would have, you know, really been experiencing it far more acutely than any other City Councillor; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
People in Orleans weren't having ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- fireworks going off their windows and trucks outside their door ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. And you viewed or saw what Councillor McKenney was doing during the demonstrations, that they were out in the streets every day and getting out to see what's happening to their residents; you saw that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and you agree with me that was quite admirable of Councillor McKenney to be out there with the residents?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is there any reason, Mayor Watson, that you didn't reach out personally to either Councillor McKenney or Councillor Fleury personally to offer them any kind of comfort or support about what they were going through during that difficult time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But one on one calls, you didn't have one on one calls with those Councillors during the course of the demonstration; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I guess they forgot that when they testified last week. You'd agree with ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Mayor Watson, you would agree with me that there's some political disagreements in City Council?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you've been a municipal politician for a long time, Mayor Watson. You agree with me that this last term has probably been a bit more bitter and hostile than ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so just a final question, Mayor. The city was in crisis. It was unprecedented. Residents and businesses were suffering. This was a time for the city to come together, a time to put aside political rivalries. Mayor Watson, do you think you did that, you served your city by getting over political rivalries by bringing all city councillors together, whether it was Ms. Deans or Ms. McKenney or others whom you had disagreements, to lead the city through this unprecedented time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think that's all my time. Thank you very much, Mayor Watson.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ultimately, you have no problem, I take it, in agreeing with me as well that it was brought to a successful resolution under chief -- Interim Chief Bell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We have no questions, thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just for the Ottawa Coalition, I believe solicitor/client privilege has been waived already on a considerable amount of the advice from Mr. White to City Council. We do have his memo; wouldn’t this be a subject matter upon which there’s already been solicitor/client waived?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner and Ms. Deans. My name is Paul Champ. I'm legal counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have some questions for you further to your testimony of this morning. Ms. Deans, I just want to ask you first about the context or the environment with the Ottawa Police Service immediately preceding the Freedom Convoy. This was a bit of a tough time for the Ottawa Police; would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There had been a series of scandals. You had a -- Deputy Chief Jaswal had been suspended due to sexual harassment allegations; there'd been a termination of the CAO, the Chief Administration Officer; there were workplace reviews that were coming out of low morale and harassment and discriminatory attitudes in the police. These were all the things that were going on just in the previous year; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you referred to this morning about the Ottawa Police was flying with one wing, to some extent, you meant that there was only permanent deputy chief, that being Deputy Chief Bell, and then the other deputy chief position that had a number of rotating superintendents? Is that what you meant?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we know that Acting Deputy Chief Ferguson, who was in charge of this operation, was one of those superintendents who was just acting deputy chief at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So presumably had a bit less experience than others who would have been in that role otherwise?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, turning to the freedom convoy, and just before the arrival, as a lay person, I think you told us this morning that, you know, you were following the news, you were following some social media, and you saw the huge number of trucks that were rumbling across the country, and you saw the millions of dollars being raised in GoFundMe. And on that basis, you had concerns that these protestors looked like they were planning to stick around for a while. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you aware that some police intelligence at that time, I think we’re going to hear about that evidence later today, were that some of these protestors were saying that they planned to stay in Ottawa until their demands were met? Were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. But notwithstanding all of this, Chief Sloly was reassuring you that in their assessment, and based on all the other inputs they had, that they believed that the freedom convoy protestors were going to be moving out by the Monday? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But did he give you any indication whether the Ottawa Police had a contingency plan in the event that didn’t happen?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And Councillor Deans, looking at one of the documents that’s referred to in your interview summary about some texts that you were having with Deputy Chief Bell on January the 31st, just after the weekend, where you asked him how we can ensure that no more trucks are allowed into the city, we had all these trucks that were ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- gridlocking downtown, and you wanted to know that there were no more trucks allowed in, and Deputy Chief Bell told you that no more trucks could drive into that area now. Do you recall getting that assurance?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, for sure. Not with the Mayor, but we’ll get to that in a moment. But the -- there were more trucks coming in after that first weekend; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you ever get any answer to that from either Deputy Chief Bell or Chief Sloly about why more trucks were being allowed into downtown Ottawa after that first weekend?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a brief question about your telephone conversation with City Solicitor David White about the potential for an injunction, I’ve had some conversations with counsel. I’m going to ask you a question that doesn’t get to the substance of what Mr. White was advising you, but I’m -- Mr. White did express to you that they did not have a plan to go for an injunction; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, did he say it was because of one of two reasons, one, that there was concerns that the Ottawa Police would be unable to enforce an injunction? Or was he suggesting that they would be concerned about their reputation if they were unsuccessful, that they might be embarrassed if the Court denied their injunction?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is that what he expressed to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. White tell you who would make the decision or who was responsible for making the decision?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The City Manager. That’s -- and Mr. Kanellakos, he’s the city manager who later on referred to Ms. Zexi Li, the person who did get the injunction as “some 20- year-old”? That’s the same city manager?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you testified this morning, Councillor Deans, that you weren’t aware that the OPP and the RCMP were perhaps delaying deployment of officers or resources because they had some concerns about the OPS operational plans. You never had heard about that before? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What could the Board have done with that information?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And had you heard concerns that the OPP were raising concerns that their officers, at times, were being mis-deployed, sent one place and then sent to another, and time was being wasted and they had concerns about that? I think we’re going to hear about that from ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Ms. Deans, did you -- when we were getting later into the protest and there was all these concerns, or this or that happening, did you ever speak to either the deputy chiefs about, you know, what was happening, whether they had concerns about how things were unfolding, or what the Ottawa Police -- how the Ottawa Police were responding?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so from that, you drew that there was no concerns at the senior command with Chief Sloly’s leadership, per say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Wouldn’t have been doing ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. Now, I want to turn a bit to your relationship with Mayor Watson. If you -- while you were Chair of the Board, if you ever wanted to have a private conversation with Mayor Watson, could you just call him?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And why was that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With some of these other key players that we’ve heard about, Chief Sloly, Deputy Chief Bell, Mr. Arpin himself, City Manager Kanellakos, you had all of their numbers and communicated with them; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it fair to say over the years, Councillor Deans, you’ve had a number of political disagreements with Mayor Watson? Is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’ve both been on City Council in one fashion or another for two decades or more?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just prior to the freedom convoy, or around that time, you had been -- you’d indicated an intention you planned to run for mayor this year at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did Mayor Watson ever speak to you about that? About whether he thought it was a good thing for you to turn for mayor or not? Did he say anything to you about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And notwithstanding your political history with the mayor, did you believe that all of Ottawa needed to respond as one team to this crisis?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in retrospect, Councillor Deans, does it now seem to you that this political rivalry, to some extent, did in fact interfere with the ability of you to work collaboratively or effectively with the mayor, or your ability to work together during this crisis?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But did you perceive that he had some animosity towards you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just turning to then after Chief Sloly resigned and you and the Police Services Board took steps to find a temporary replacement for him. We'd heard Mr. Arpin testify that he had a lot of criticism, or even Mayor Watson, you know, they didn't follow a process and so on and so forth. Why didn't you follow a big, lengthy, extensive process like the eight-month period that we're seeing Police Services Board now following?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You felt they were playing a bit of politics with you in the midst of this crisis in the city?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's how you felt.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I'm not getting into the reasons why, you've already explained them quite well the rationale to the Board about why they were preferring external candidate, but just to be clear, without Mr. Torigian taking over as Chief, as a result, there left the Ottawa Police Service with an Acting Chief and two Acting Deputy Chiefs; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the three top positions, the Ottawa Police were all acting ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just taking a -- and just a half a step back, you told us about you got wind over the weekend of a potential motion by City Council to call for the removal or resignation of Chief Sloly. And when you heard about that, you contacted Mr. Arpin ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. -- Mayor Watson's Chief of Staff. Now Mr. Arpin testified that he communicated to you that such a motion would be a bad idea. He didn't -- you know, that you needed to work together to try to stop such a motion. Is that what he told you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if I understand what you're telling us is that notwithstanding Mr. Arpin saying to you, reassuring you that, you know, the mayor wouldn't necessarily support such a motion, you yourself had concerns that he might flip suddenly and then support a motion like that without notice ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We'll say it Watson.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now turning to your telephone call with the mayor the morning after Chief Sloly had resigned and you were about to later that day announce that a new Chief had been hired; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so we've heard testimony from you already and Mayor Watson about him and you've got this recorded conversation. I just want to ask you, did you record that conversation with the mayor because you didn't trust him completely; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- oh, by the way, incidentally, were you aware when you were having that conversation with the mayor that the mayor's staff were already working on a motion to remove you, were you aware at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But he didn't tell you that that's what he was trying to do?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes, Machiavelli had nothing on our mayor. Thank you very much, Ms. Deans. That's all I have.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And as a result, you entered into an agreement to pay Chief Sloly how much money to terminate his contract?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Deputy Chief Ferguson.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My name's Paul Champ. I'm the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, and want to thank you very much for coming today to answer some of our questions. I want to start, Deputy Chief Ferguson, asking you about the decision to allow the heavy trucks to come downtown right at the outset. Now, we've heard previous evidence from the City Manager, Mr. Kanellakos and the Mayor and Chair Deans that the police were telling them that it was the opinion of the Ottawa Police Service that you could not prevent the heavy trucks from going downtown because of the Charter rights of those truckers. Was that your understanding of what the Ottawa Police were telling the City of Ottawa officials?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was that a legal opinion that the Ottawa Police obtained?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Notwithstanding the dramatically larger scale and the larger number of like heavy trucks?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And this idea of vehicle protests or vehicle associated protests, you've told us the Ottawa Police Service had some experience with that before. Has the Ottawa Police sought input or guidance or expertise from other police services about how they manage large vehicle protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There might be police services reaching out to OPS now after this incident ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- I'm sure. Yeah. Deputy Chief, on January 26th, we know that you gave an interview to Global News; is that right? Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you made a comment to the media at that time, or Global News, that you expected the convoy protests could go on for a prolonged period. Do you recall making a comment like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by that, you -- I understand you are later suggesting that by prolonged period you just meant like a long weekend.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But isn't it true, Deputy Chief, that by that time there were in fact all kinds of, I would suggest, of glaring indicators that these protesters were coming here for a very prolonged period. Isn't that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But this one was different, Deputy Chief. You had a very, very large number of trucks that were coming from a long distance, right, from Western Canada; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, some of the same folks involved.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we might hear about that later in these hearings. But nowhere near the numbers; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This one was also different, I would suggest, Deputy Chief, because it was known and very publicly known that they had in fact raised an enormous amount of money to support this journey, and perhaps more, given the amount of money raised. That made it different, did it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you knew from the GoFundMe page it said for raising money for fuel and lodging and food for the protesters in Ottawa. You were aware of that.,
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That might have been the Intelligence folks might not have shared that. And also that the protesters had no exit strategy. You weren't -- but you weren't aware of that in the beginning.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you would agree with me, Deputy Chief, there were some indicators that they were prepared to come here for a number of weeks perhaps?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And at the time of the first weekend, at least at that time, unfortunately the Ottawa Police Service did not have a contingency plan about how to manage that for several weeks if we had a few hundred trucks parked in Downtown Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We were crossing our fingers and hoping for the best at that point. And I don't mean -- I know there's a lot of armchair quarterbacks at this stage, Deputy Chief, but it was a bit of a traumatic event for a lot of folks downtown. Now, at one point the deputy, or pardon me, Chief Sloly said this is no longer a protest, it's an occupation, and you've told us today that the protesters had begun to entrench themselves, and you'd mentioned they had set up tents. But did they also were starting creating wooden structures; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A number of them at different locations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There were kitchens that were set up ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- outdoor kitchens? We know they had different fires at different locations to keep them warm in multiple locations.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They had supply chains of fuel and food from the staging area, Coventry, to bring food and fuel regularly downtown; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the Ottawa Police was monitoring, I gather, those supply chains?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’re also aware that the convoy protestors had very strong logistics and experienced people managing those logistics? You’re aware that they had retired military and police managing those logistics?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, over time, it became quite clear to Ottawa Police Service there was a serious problem, that they could well be here for a very long time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on the impact downtown, there was, is it fair to say, Deputy Chief, a fair amount of lawlessness in Downtown Ottawa at that time, aside from just the bylaws, the parking, the idling, open fires everywhere, at almost every intersection, and so forth; correct.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fireworks were shooting off, binging off buildings, and so forth?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Large numbers of propane tanks and jerrycans were around downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
People were ignoring public health regulations on masks?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard some questions around other more serious crimes, about assaults. There were reports of assaults during the course of the protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, those would have been, I gather, Deputy Chief, difficult crimes to investigate because they weren’t in situations where the victim and the perpetrator don’t know each other and it’s at a random place in a street; I gather that’s very challenging for police to investigate?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in many cases isn’t it fair to say, Deputy Chief, that for Ottawa citizens or residents calling saying they were assaulted and making those reports, the police, unfortunately, couldn’t do much more than just take down the information; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s really what happened with the vast majority of those cases?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there was also a large number of people reporting threats, being threated by the protestors; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in many cases when there wasn’t actually an assault, the police weren’t even necessarily taking police reports on those because there were so many; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Yeah, this protest was kind of affecting Ottawa on many levels. We were -- our public officials were receiving serious threats as well, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s -- those are things that Ottawa Police resources had to deal with?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
As much as we could. We also -- obviously, we had the deluge of fake 911 calls and bomb threats to our hospitals; those things happened?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Making it difficult on Ottawa’s Police Resources?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Deputy Chief, as well, the police officers, you’ve already told us how exhausted they were working around the clock. Some of them were also reporting they having concerns with the sound and the diesel fumes; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because many of them were complaining as it went along about how loud it was?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, just the final area, Deputy Chief, about the Ottawa Police and what was happening with the Ottawa Police at that time. Now, this significant event, it occurred a very difficult for the Ottawa Police Service as an organization; is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’ve indicated that there was a lot of retirements and resignations at the senior levels at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We had a Deputy Chief who had been suspended for a prolonged period of time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The Deputy Chief position that you were occupying, that was Deputy Chief Jaswal spot?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And for the previous two and half years, they were rotating people through that spot, a number of different officers, Inspectors McKennna, Ford, Burnett, I think Rheaume, Dunlop, Drummond, all of you occupied that position for some period of time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And other senior officers had resigned or retired at that time so you’d some of -- some of the normal robustness of the Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there was also the issue, was it not, Deputy Chief, that there were some -- there was a lot of people within in the Ottawa Police Service who disliked the Chief and were not very happy with the Chief’s leadership; is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Well, we know in the in the midst of this, Deputy Chief, of this convoy, not only did Chief Sloly end up resigning but, prior to that, there was a CBC story that was coming out critical of his leadership that apparently came from those within the Ottawa Police Service; do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But do you think that those who leaked that information, they were trying to undermine Chief Sloly or wanted to see him fail?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And just the last -- the last thing here, Deputy Chief, now, you’ve testified -- you’ve given us evidence that you yourself had some concerns with the decision-making and actions of Chief Sloly at times?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And your concerns about that grew over time as the convoy progressed?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware that -- and we’re going to hear evidence of this -- that the OPP and others from the other police services also had some concerns in that regard?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And now, did you discuss these concerns with Deputy Chief Bell at any time? Like, as the two, you know, executive command under the Chief, did the two of you discuss these concerns that were being raised and your observations about Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it never got to the level of concern that the two of you were expressing concerns to each other about your confidence in the Chief’s decision-making abilities at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And if you had, would that have -- what would you have done? Was that something that you and Deputy Chief Bell could have perhaps raised with the Police Services Board, perhaps?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The Ontario Civilian Police Commission?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just finally, on the integrated command, once the integrated command occurred, that’s when the resources really began to flow; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it seemed that there was some concerns by other police services that they didn’t want to provide significant resources when it was under exclusive leader command of the Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so, Deputy Chief, is it fair to say that had there been a shift to the integrated command much sooner in this event, perhaps the actions that were finally taken to clear out the protest could have occurred sooner; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Deputy Chief.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Superintendent Abrams. Thank you so much for coming to Ottawa and answering these questions for all of us here. My name is Paul Champ. I’m legal counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses from downtown Ottawa, and I just have some questions for you. Superintendent Abrams, were you aware or did you know about how many residents, roughly, lived in the red zone in downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if I said 15,000, approximately, would that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so when you were making decisions or being involved in the operations, the police operations in Ottawa, you were aware we’re talking about thousands of people who are being impacted by these convoy protests in downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would have been aware there was a large number of businesses in downtown Ottawa that were shut down completely; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And obviously, not only those business owners experiencing those losses. There would have been countless workers who were out of jobs during that period of time as well. You would have known that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And on -- with respect to the conditions on the streets, you were aware of the -- obviously, the large number of semi trucks in some cases right outside of people’s doors honking and so forth, but we also had other conditions downtown like the large stacks of wood, the large number of propane tanks, often together, the jerry cans of diesel fuel, the open fires at almost every other intersection, the fireworks that were going on at night. You were aware of all those conditions; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard evidence last week, Superintendent Abrams, about residents being fearful that their building perhaps could catch on fire, there could be an explosion from this -- the dangerous propane and so forth that’s around. You agree that that was a reasonable fear?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And it was your view that the police -- well, it was the case, was it not, Superintendent Abrams, that the police were unable to effectively control or prevent these inflammatory and explosive materials from being regularly transported on a daily basis to the downtown core; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, it wasn’t a challenge. It couldn’t be done. They weren’t -- they couldn’t do it. Maybe it could have been done, but they weren’t stopping it; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, for sure. I’m not saying it -- they couldn’t do it. Like effectively, they couldn’t do it given the numbers that were on the ground of police at the time; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, it was -- it was impossible.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And yeah, and that’s a very good point that you just made there, Superintendent Abrams. It wasn’t simply downtown residents and businesses at risk. It was -- there was dangers to your officers downtown because of the circumstances or conditions; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. The horns and the diesel fumes, no doubt you were hearing complaints about that from your officers.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And now we’ve heard you say, Superintendent Abrams, that on January 29th, it was your view and the view of the OPP that the Ottawa Police Service did not have the capability to bring an end to this incident or this event. Is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Exactly.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But to be clear, Superintendent Abrams, even if the Ottawa Police had a great plan -- and we’ve heard all the evidence about the struggles of coming up with a plan that was acceptable to the OPP. But even if they had a plan, it was very clear to you the Ottawa Police Services simply did not have the resources on the ground to bring that incident to an end; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And that remained your view throughout and, in fact, was the reality. It wasn’t until significant numbers came that they were able to bring it to an end; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And it’s my understanding, Superintendent Abrams, that you had a conversation on January 31st with Deputy Chief Bell where he indicated to you that the Ottawa Police Service at that time was looking at a four-week sustainability plan. Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were quite surprised, is my understanding about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were concerned the Ottawa Police were looking at already that this could be a prolonged event and they were just going to try to manage it for four weeks? That was your understanding at the time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I presume, Superintendent, that it was a concern to you because you could observe yourself about the significant impact on the residents in downtown Ottawa; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And that leads to another point, Superintendent Abrams, is that, you know, we've heard a lot of your testimony about closing the off ramps to the 417, and the OPP did not prefer that option; correct? You were -- you wanted -- you were content with the trucks to continue to come downtown Ottawa in the weekends that followed; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Through the PLTs?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, if I understand what you're telling us, Superintendent Abrams, is that the OPP worked with the Ottawa Police to try to identify the best routes for the trucks to get downtown if they were going to indeed come downtown; is that right? It would minimize the traffic impacts on the rest of the city.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But that was just the last four or five days when the operation was being rolled out to bring the event to an end; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, so ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but that was around February 16th or 17th you stopped doing that. On the weekends of 5th and 6th and the 12th, there were big signs on the Highway 417 saying "convoy truckers this way"; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And, Superintendent Abrams, I'm not sure if you appreciate how the effected residents of downtown Ottawa felt when they saw the Ottawa -- the Ontario Provincial Police putting up big signs saying convoy truckers this way, apparently rolling out a welcome mat to them downtown. Did you appreciate how the people in downtown Ottawa would have felt at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I thought I get 15.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I believe -- my notes had 15. May I ask one more question there, Commissioner?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Superintendent, pardon me, Abrams, you've told us that you reported up to Commissioner Carrique and Deputy Commissioner Harkins about your observations and your concerns with downtown Ottawa -- or pardon me, with the Ottawa Police and how they were effectively doing that. You would have assumed that they would have reported that up to the Solicitor General?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And but given your observations of the challenges, the significant challenge the Ottawa Police Service were having to respond to this event, both based on the problems you were seeing at senior command, as well as just the bare resources, did you consider, or do you know if anyone in the OPP ever considered reporting this either to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission or perhaps the Ottawa Police Services Board, so some type of effective action perhaps could have been taken by others to direct or guide the Ottawa Police Service towards a more effective response?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But did you -- was that ever considered, or were you aware of that if that was ever considered?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I need four.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Chief Superintendent. Thank you for joining us. My name is Paul Champ. I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a few questions for you, Chief Superintendent. I’ve represented police officers for many years, for about 20 years, and it’s been my experience that there’s a lot of very strong personalities in policing. Is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Strong characters, strong leaders, and sometimes those personalities can conflict?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And similarly, when you have the strong personalities in leadership positions, it can be kind of difficult for them to give up leadership or maybe admit they’re wrong, or seek assistance. Is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s fair. Where I was going to go -- I wanted to ask you about, Chief Superintendent, is that you told us before about how a chief of police in Ontario can ask the Ontario Provincial Police to take over their service or assist their service in cases of emergency, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Chief Sloly didn’t do that in these circumstances?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But it’s also the case that the -- under the Police Services Act, the Board could ask the OPP to take over, correct, the Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or the Ontario Civilian Police Commission?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if they have the relevant or proper information, they could have considered that and weighed that option?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would agree with me that given the prevailing conditions in Ottawa at that time, the Ottawa Police simply couldn’t provide adequate and effective policing services to their community?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s fair. Absolutely.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But we’ve heard lots of evidence, and I don’t think it’s really in dispute that the Ottawa Police Services simply did not have the capacity to bring this event to an end on their own. The numbers were such, the scale was such, it was recognized generally the Ottawa Police couldn’t end this on their own, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And it took an enormous amount more of police resources from elsewhere to bring an end to this, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I’m just wondering, like, I was taking a look and reviewing the National Framework on Police Preparedness for Demonstrations and Assemblies, and there’s nothing in there about what happens if the demonstration is of such a scale that the police force of jurisdiction can’t manage it and then how or in what way there could be a trigger for them to ask for another service to maybe even take over if they’re having a real problem. Would you agree with me, Chief Superintendent, that more policy or protocol around that for how police services can feel comfortable reaching out to get assistance would be helpful?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, if Chief Sloly had had some more guidance on that or he -- his strong personality, maybe he felt he was kind of getting it from all sides -- I think we’ve heard a lot of evidence from that -- felt embattled. But if there was a policy there saying, “Hey, at this point, that’s a trigger. You should actually cede responsibility to another service,” that perhaps could have helped this crisis, would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I hear you, Chief Superintendent but I guess just what I’m suggesting is that it’s a little bit ad hoc, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's no real good guidance for a Chief about when might be the right time to press the emergency button.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you very much, Chief Superintendent.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. Paul Champ. I can confirm that one’s working.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. Thank you very much, Chief Bell, for coming in and speaking to us today.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good to see you again.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Chief Bell, just following on one of the questions that you just got before about the harm and how many people live in downtown Ottawa. It’s about 18,000 residents but you would agree with me, Deputy Chief Bell, there are several thousands of people who live in Ottawa who work downtown who were unable to work during the duration of the Convoy?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, the businesses and their employees?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So I want to ask you now questions about the role that you were playing during the Convoy demonstrations, and around intelligence operations in particular. I understand from your testimony that you’ve given that the intelligence did not indicate that the Convoy planned to use the Ottawa community as, I think you used the words, “leverage point” to achieve their objectives. I just want to ask you about that. By “leverage”, did you mean that the Convoy protestors were trying to make life difficult for residents in Ottawa as leverage with political leaders to achieve their objectives?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. People of Ottawa were, in a sense, being held as hostages until their political demands were met?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, in terms of the intelligence, Chief Bell, there was intelligence about the phrase “Bear Hug”, or “Operation Bear Hug”; do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what did you understand was meant by that term, “Bear Hug”?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, to encircle downtown to apply pressure to them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I trust you’d agree with me, Chief, that a lack of a contingency plan for a prolonged occupation was a tactical error by the police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, here, there was none at all. That’s what we’ve heard from Deputy Chief Ferguson. There was no contingency plan for what to do if these big rigs decided to stay longer than the weekend; you’d agree with that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in retrospect, Chief Bell, we can agree that the Ottawa Police Service, unfortunately, was exceptionally unprepared for this protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Chief, I want to ask you some questions about the intelligence during the protest. You were receiving intelligence and were aware that there were former police and military members who were participants in the Convoy; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And some of them were involved in some of the planning and logistics for the Convoy protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And these individuals, I gather, the police assessed were quite sophisticated logistically and had knowledge of police tactics?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I presume that caused some concern for the Ottawa Police in terms of how to manage or respond to what the Convoy was doing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Now, this is a different question, but on a related point, Chief, were there any concerns, or was there any intelligence about current police members from the Ottawa Police or other police forces who were sympathetic to the protestors and may have been sharing information with them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But your investigations did confirm that a number of Ottawa Police members were very sympathetic to the protestors and, for example, were donating funds to them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Now, in terms of other intelligence that you had, Chief, what about -- like, we know that the broad number of people who came to Ottawa were from, you know, all kinds of different backgrounds and so forth, working folks and so forth, but there were also different elements who were participating in the protests who were of greater concern. Isn’t that so, Chief? Bad elements? Bad actors and groups?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well for example, the seizure of firearms in Coutts, Alberta and the arrests that were made for attempted murder of RCMP officers, those individuals were associated with a group named Diagolon. It’s my understanding the leader of Diagolon was in Ottawa for the duration of the demonstrations. Isn’t that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that was of concern to the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there were other elements, others who were affiliated with known white supremacist groups in Ottawa during that period of time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that was of concern to the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you some questions about some concerns that others had with the OPS plan and the use of policing resources. We heard from Supt. Abrams last week that he raised concerns with you on a number of occasions about OPS plans or the deployment, or what he viewed as misuse of OP resources. That’s all true, Chief Bell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well how about with respect to the plans? We heard evidence from Mayor Watson last week that he was hearing from the Prime Minister and the Solicitor General and the Minister, Federal Minister of Public Safety, that there were concerns from the OPP and the RCMP about providing resources to the Ottawa Police because they had some doubts or concerns about the OPS plans and whether it was the right plan or whether it was safe. Were you aware that those concerns were being raised at the higher levels?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you yourself have any concerns about the readiness of the OPS plans in the first, let’s say, 12 days of the protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was it your impression or your understanding, Chief Bell, that Chief Sloly was a bit resistant to the integrated command? I think we’ve heard some evidence of that already.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well he made comments to you and Deputy Chief Ferguson that he felt the OPP and RCMP were not help him, or taking directions for their political masters, or comments like that? You recall that meeting?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you and Deputy Chief Ferguson didn’t agree with him and you raised concerns about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You also had concerns, did you not, Chief, that Chief Sloly appeared to be taking operational advice from the PR firm Navigator? That was your impression?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But as the crisis in Ottawa continued and became more prolonged, Deputy Chief, did you have -- you had some concerns about the leadership of Chief Sloly, did you not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There’s another one. Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Councillor Deans, the Chair of the Police Services Board at the time, testified last week that she called you at one point about one week before Chief Sloly’s resignation. And she testified that she asked you whether you would be doing anything differently if you were chief. Do you recall that conversation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is that roughly what she asked you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And she testified that you told her that you wouldn’t have done anything differently? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. So you don’t disagree with her testimony on that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Certainly, Deputy -- or at that time, as Deputy Chief, your obligation was to serve your chief, but did you not also have an obligation to serve the people of Ottawa, Chief Bell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Precisely. And that’s the point though, Chief Bell. So if you saw Chief Sloly, from when I, you know, heard your testimony today and reviewed your interview summary, it sounds like you had many points of concern, shall we say, about Chief Sloly’s leadership and that this perhaps was the reason why this occupation was so prolonged. And so what I’m asking you, Chief, is that if you had concerns that Ottawa Police, perhaps, were unable to respond the way that they could, or as effectively as they could, because of the leadership, did you not have some duty or obligation to raise that issue with the Ottawa Police Services Board or some other authority?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You learned about Chief Sloly’s resignation from Chair Deans on February 15th? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And between that conversation and the Police Services Board, many of the members being removed the following evening, did you have any communications with the Mayor or the Mayor’s Office?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
On the Mayor’s negotiations with the protestors, you made the connection between City Manager Steve Kanellakos and the PLT on February the 10th?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you know what was happening between February the 10th and February the 12th on those negotiations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- but you now understand or now are aware that there were different negotiations going on between the Mayor's Office and the protesters?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Did you have concerns that no police guidance or assistance was being provided to the Mayor these negotiations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I hear you completely, Chief Bell, but if that was a way to get any kind of dialogue with these protesters and get any kind of movement or agreement on them to relieve the pressure on the people of Ottawa, that was probably a good idea. But the question I'm wondering is how did it turn out that way that the Mayor's Office was on his own conducting these negotiations with practically no input from the Ottawa Police? How did that happen?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just finally -- oh, I'm at my 20 minutes, I believe. I'll ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Chief Bell.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Superintendent Bernier, my name is Paul Champ. I'm lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I just have some questions for you further to your testimony. Just a couple of small things, Superintendent. You were talking about the capacity of the Ottawa Police Service to monitor social media and gather intelligence in real-time so to speak.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Intelligence is a broad term. You're gathering information?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that's done through generally the OPS Command Centre at Greenbank, that's where you guys did that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But at that time you had like a number of screens on the wall and people were, what, monitoring social media?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So how do you do it now? How do you monitor live what's happening? If there is something on Twitter or some other social media channel that could have important information to the Ottawa Police to respond to events or monitor events, how do you do that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So at the time of the Freedom Convoy, the practice of the Ottawa Police was maybe not up to the event; is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you just a couple of questions about how the people of Downtown Ottawa were feeling. You, I think, had suggested that the public sentiment throughout much of the convoy demonstration was that the Ottawa Police Service was not doing enough to address community concerns. Would you agree with that, that was what it seemed to be the public feeling?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would've understand [sic], I gather, Superintendent, that residents and businesses were feeling a great deal of frustration during that convoy demonstration?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And those frustrations were completely understandable?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, around the enforcement messaging, the Ottawa Police for a period of time was putting out messaging like, oh, you know, this many tickets this day, this many tickets. You disagreed, it's my understanding, with that enforcement messaging because you felt it was counterproductive because it really -- the enforcement wasn't having an effect on the convoy demonstrations. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what kind of messaging to the community would've been appropriate in the circumstances during that period? Like, I don't know, "hold on tight, we'll see what we can do", or what would have been the proper messaging to the public who were experiencing those daily stresses and horns and trucks and threats and harassment? What was the proper messaging from the Ottawa Police to the community, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. I’ve got a few questions for you, but I’ll just maybe ask the hearing clerk to get a video ready for me. I’ll ask a question about it, about three or four questions, if you could just pull it up and have it ready. It’s HRF000274. So during the final operation, the final plan that was finally started being executed on February 16th-17th through to the 20th, Superintendent, it started out with messaging. That was the first phase, of messaging to the protectors that it's time to leave.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. There was a notice to demonstrators that you started circulating. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Advising them that they’re going to be arrested at some point in the near future if they didn’t depart?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was also language in that notice to demonstrators about, I think the wording is this, the federal Emergencies Act allows for the regulation or prohibition of travel to, from or within any specific areas. This means that anyone coming to Ottawa for the purpose of joining the ongoing demonstration is breaking the law. So I gather that the purpose of that messaging was also to advise others -- that was, I think, the Wednesday, if I recall, or the Thursday -- don’t come into Ottawa this weekend, party’s over?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that if people did come in, they very likely would be arrested.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, as you moved closer to that final week into the Saturday when the major enforcement action began, was the Ottawa Police sort of monitoring social media to follow what the protestors were doing or how they were responding to the Ottawa Police messaging that -- the notices and so forth that they should be leaving the city?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So you weren’t -- the Ottawa Police at the time didn’t have the capacity to do live monitoring of social media in an effective way that could assist operations.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. We heard evidence the first day of the hearing, Superintendent Bernie, from Ms. Nathalie Carrier, who’s the Executive Director of the Vanier VIA saying that she had been following social media and saw that the truckers were getting together to go down and do a drive-by of the Ottawa Airport, and so she contacted her Ottawa Police contact, saying “Do you guys know this is going on?”. They’re like, “Where are you hearing that?”. She’s like, “Well, I’m looking on social media”. So at that time, that was, unfortunately, the level of capacity at that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No worries. So then getting -- going to the end of the protest, again, the last weekend, the days coming up to the last weekend, the Ottawa Police is doing the messaging clearly through the PLTs, the notice to demonstrators it’s time to leave or else there will be enforcement action. Was the Ottawa Police contending with or observing that there was a lot of counter-messaging, I guess we can say, online by the protestors or those associated with the protest saying, “Don’t leave. Hold the line”?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And I gather, Superintendent, that any messages that protestors or anyone else saying to protectors or others to come into downtown to confront the police, that would have been enormously unhelpful to the Ottawa Police and their policing partners.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I was wondering if we could put up HRF000274. So this is a TikTok video that was put out late February 16th after the notice to demonstrators. There was a message sent out on social media to the demonstrators by Mr. Barber, who’s one of the individuals I believe we’ll be hearing from and his counsel, Mr. Wilson. If we could just play that. (AUDIO/VIDEO PLAYBACK)
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Superintendent Bernier, messages like that that -- telling people to come downtown to confront the police, stand with the protestors, to make it harder for the police to do their jobs, I gather that kind of messaging was making it much more difficult for the police to do their job.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right. Thank you very much, Superintendent Bernier.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It's Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. Superintendent Drummond, I can't recall if we crossed paths or not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologise.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Too many OPS files. A few questions, Superintendent. First of all, Tom Marazzo, did you know him prior to the convoy demonstration?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or -- we know that there was a retired, recently retired RCMP officer, Danny Bulford, who was involved in the Freedom Convoy organisers. Did you know him at all?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you know of any retired police officers who were participating in the protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. There was a concern at times, was it not, Superintendent, that some police information or police Operational information was being leaked to protesters. Isn't that so?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Yeah, there was a concern that there was some active members or current members might be sharing information with the protesters?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fortunately, though, there was no Operational compromise we don't think, or is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was some concern that possibly an Operational plan around the potential plan to clear Rideau/Sussex might have been leaked; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was there any investigations into that by the Ottawa Police Service to find out if any officers did in fact leak information?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. At the time, you were worried about the Operation what you were trying to do?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Discipline issues could be dealt with later.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You guys were facing challenges on every level at that time.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a couple of questions about the negotiations and the Mayor's deal. Oh, wait. Hold on a sec here. No, you know what, I'm not going to ask any questions on that. Just -- I want to ask you some questions about the conditions on the ground in Downtown Ottawa at that time, Superintendent. One thing we had heard about, about a fuel truck had parked in the Rideau Centre parking lot. You would agree with me, Superintendent, that would be very dangerous?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And we also have heard evidence and seen images big hay bales piled around downtown, and also open fires and so forth. Those were dangerous was it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Many propane tanks, large numbers of propane tanks up together, as well as large numbers of jerry cans. That was very dangerous?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in addition to the hay bales and the propane tanks and the open fires and the jerry cans, in the evenings there were fireworks going off very close to and banging off of apartment buildings. You're aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that was very dangerous?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Superintendent, the convoy protesters were free to do all of this downtown -- in Downtown Ottawa because at the time Ottawa Police Service did not have capacity for enforcement; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well -- but those kinds of activities were going on right until the final operation; correct? There was some efforts around ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- the jerry cans?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would agree with me, Superintendent, we were all very fortunate here in Ottawa that no one was seriously harmed or even killed, including the protesters themselves because of these dangerous activities?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Serious injuries with all that flammable material?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- so the fact that the Ottawa Police couldn't prevent much of that activity, the convoy protesters were free to engage in those activities to -- that created that risk?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, Superintendent, I mean, there wasn't any serious effort to enforce to stop that. And not to be critical of the police, my understanding from previous evidence is that when Ottawa Police would try to take that kind of enforcement action downtown they'd end up ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- sometimes being swarmed by the protesters ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- they would be outnumbered very quickly.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And it became a matter of officer safety.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So again, there wasn't really any serious efforts to be able to stop those kinds of dangerous activities in Downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was no serious progress on those issues. Ottawa was basically unsafe throughout that -- the entirety of that process, or pardon me, protest.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And with the protesters generally being free to do this, at some point they could've been injured themselves and become victims of their own freedom. Would you agree with me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Superintendent.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Commissioner, Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition. I'm sure inadvertently, but I think we were missed in the series of questions -- questioners.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner, my name is Paul Champ. I'm the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have some questions for you following on your testimony. Thank you so much to coming to Ottawa to answer these questions for us.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The first question I have for you concerns the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police National Framework for Policing Demonstration -- Police Preparedness for Demonstrations.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There is nothing in that framework, Commissioner, about a threshold for seeking and obtaining resources or assistance from policing partners. You'd agree with me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, there's -- and but with a threshold or a criteria for that, it would make it easier for a Chief to seed command to another police service or a unified command I gather. Would that help that decision making?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I would just flag this, Commissioner, I've looked through that framework a number of times and it looks like it's a very good document, very good guidance on managing a regular demonstration, but there's nothing really in there about how to deal with a demonstration that's much bigger, or much larger, or more difficult for the police service of jurisdiction to manage. There's nothing about how you get policing partners to come help you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But wouldn't you agree with me that if you have a framework for police services to look to for being prepared for demonstrations, if it happens to be a very large demonstration, it would be helpful to have guidance or criteria in there for how or in what ways a police service should reach out for assistance from policing partners.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, okay, we can stick with Ontario. So Section 9 of the Police Services Act, it doesn't have criteria for when the -- a chief should reach out, or a Police Service Board should reach out, or the Ontario Civilian Police Commission should reach out; correct? There’s no criteria?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I guess what I’m trying to say, Commissioner, is I understand that how this event unfolded in Ottawa, people -- many people have testified here today being critical of Chief Sloly, that -- or the Ottawa Police didn’t have an effective plan for a prolonged period. They should have given in to a unified command earlier in the demonstration. But really, it was up to the subjective of ad hoc decision of Chief Sloly, you know, absent you going to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission. But essentially, it was up to him to decide if he wanted to cede command to a unified police command. You would agree with that, it was up to him?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, or some criteria?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner, what I’m trying to get at is that by -- well, what we do know -- you’ve already given us testimony that by February the 15th, you were ready to have a conversation with Chief Sloly to suggest to him that it’s time for him to cede responsibility to a unified police command; correct, you were going to have that conversation with him?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that’s right. You gave us testimony that to elevate it, you would have spoken to the Deputy Solicitor General to perhaps raise it to the Solicitor General’s level, to then go over to the Ontario Civilian Police Commission to possibly make a direction under Section of the Police Services Act to have the OPP take over. That’s what you’re talking about, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that was on your mind when you were thinking about having that conversation with Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, by the 15th, it was two and a half weeks on and that was a consideration that you had. You were losing confidence that -- whether the Ottawa Police Service, on its own, could make the decisions to manage the situation; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you spoke to Commissioner Lucki from the RCMP that day and she also shared the view that you had, that you were losing confidence in the Ottawa Police and its chief to manage the situation; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’re aware, by February 15th, it had been 18 days of the streets in downtown Ottawa blockaded; people being unable to access groceries in some cases; people with disabilities, difficulty getting out of their homes; there was horns blaring day and night; there was open fires; there was propane tanks and jerrycans; there was 300 to 400 commercial idling 24 hours a day? You’re aware of all those conditions, Commissioner?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that would have been very difficult every single day for the people and businesses in downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And no doubt that’s a situation that, in your view, could have or should have been ended earlier; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and you’ve given us that testimony earlier?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And if there had been a proper operational plan prepared earlier, that also, perhaps, could have led to the protest being ended earlier; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But, Commissioner, we’ve heard evidence in this Commission from a number of different witnesses that policing resources from the OPP and others were delayed because there were concerns that the Ottawa Police did not have a proper operational plan for the deployment of those resources; would you agree with that? There was a delay in the OPP sending resources who didn’t have confidence that the Ottawa Police had a plan?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So until you had a plan, you couldn’t -- you yourself couldn’t identify the resources and you weren’t prepared to have OPP resources go until you’ve seen a plan where you felt those resources would be properly deployed; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. So there was a delay until we had a proper plan; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Believe me, Commissioner, the people in Ottawa knew what the context was at that time when there was that delay because it was February that 7th that the mayor and the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board asked for 1,800 officers and a significant number of OPP officers didn’t arrive in Ottawa until about approximately February 17th; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Over a thousand ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And while we’re on that, it’s my understanding from your interview summary that there was approximately 400 OPP officers deployed to Windsor to deal with the Ambassador Bridge blockades; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize, I didn’t bring your interview summary up because my understanding is it said it was 400 OPP, I thought. Now, isn’t it fair to say that the OPP could not have sent the numbers of officers that were ultimately sent to Ottawa to bring the protest to an end at the same time as dealing with Ambassador Bridge crisis in Windsor?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you couldn’t manage both of those events at the time; you just simply have the -- you didn’t have the numbers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right, just one last point, if I could, Commissioner. On the letter that went from the mayor and the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board on February 7th asking for 1,800 officers, you’ve testified you didn’t that public request was helpful; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, because then there could be a perception publicly that the OPS didn’t have the resources to manage the situation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But don’t you think it was already obvious to everyone on the city streets of Ottawa, whether it’s the residents or the protesters themselves, that the Ottawa Police did not have the resources to manage what was happening?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, but, Commissioner, is it not the case that one day before, the mayor and the chair sent that letter, it was the Solicitor General of Ontario that announced on February the 6th that they’d already sent 1,500 officers; right? That was publicly stated one day before, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, because that wasn’t helpful either?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They were politicizing things?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well the Solicitor General.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
While that document’s being pulled up, Commissioner, I would just note -- it’s Paul Champ, for the record. Just taking a look at the testimony of Deputy Chief Ferguson, it wasn’t put to her by any witness (sic) about whether she had been directed by former Chief Sloly to remove Superintendent Rheaume from that position, so I’m just -- just noting for the record that that -- we don’t have any other evidence on that in the background. Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, I’ll just look at the transcripts and confirm that. Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Barber, my name is Paul Champ. I'm a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition for Residents and Businesses, and I have some ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I have some questions for you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think you probably -- you may already be aware of this, I'm from Saskatchewan as well, so we have that in common.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. We're both from God's land.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Regina.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I've been in your area many, many times.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I'd just like to start about the reasons why you were coming to Ottawa. It was about mandates generally or was it just the trucker the mandates, the -- or the border restriction that truckers could no longer enter or pass through if they didn't have ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And government going too far, it was everything. It was the restrictions, the restrictions from going into restaurants, from, you know, school were shut down, all those sorts of things. It just built up and that was the last straw for you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The trucker mandate, in particular, though, the United States had a mandate in place at the same place, correct, so it didn't matter what Ottawa did?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But many mandates that people were upset about were provincial mandates; right? I guess Ottawa is like a symbol of all levels of government for many of those people in the convoy?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Barber, I want to ask you some questions about your arrival in Ottawa, since the Ottawa Police didn't ask you any questions about this. I want to understand. You believed that when you were coming to Ottawa, when you were in the last 100 kilometres, your understanding was that the trucks would be going to staging areas; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Outside the city?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when did that change? Like who informed you that you could just go to Downtown Ottawa instead, and when?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And where did you stay during the course of the protest? What hotel?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we -- I've seen a news story about your text messages you had with some of the organisers, and we've seen reference of you having texts with Mr. Lich on January 30th where she said that she had received a call from the Command Centre. What was the Command Centre for you guys?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Gridlock the city.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. She said, "I don't want to make this decision on my own. Can you come -- head over here soon?" Did you go over to that meeting at the Command Centre?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the trucks did gridlock the city, you would agree with me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
At least the emergency lanes were open.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about you told us that you were protesting about the trucker mandate at the border. Did you -- were you opposed to mask mandates as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In Ottawa, though, you'd agree with me that large groups of convoy protesters were going into stores and restaurants and shops all unmasked. Were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You weren't part of that, but that was a protest tactic, wasn't it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was a tactic that was discussed, but you weren't -- you didn't necessarily support it or take part in it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were aware that in Ontario there was a law that stores and shops couldn't allow people in with masks and they'd be fined if they allowed that -- -
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- you were aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And did you hear stories about staff who were saying things, "people, please take -- put on a mask or leave", and staff being threatened? Did you hear stories about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you some questions about the money. The money that was raised was meant to cover fuel and food and travel expenses for the truckers; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. It also covered hotel bills; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You're talking about the GoFundMe money?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but you guys raised an enormous amount of money outside of that; right? You were raising thousands of dollars a day in cash and etransfers; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And cash?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's an interview summary in this matter. I presume you're aware of Mr. Eros. You know Chad Eros?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Chad says that there was approximately $20,000 being raised in cash per day. Does that sound roughly accurate to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He also speaks about how that occasionally, to get rid of all this cash on hand, they were putting it in envelopes, putting numbers on it and were giving it out to truckers. You were aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You took part in that. So you were aware there was large amounts of cash.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So you were handing out -- it's my understanding those envelopes was between $500 and $2,000 per envelope?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the average trucker earns about 45 to $50,000 a year; is that right, Mr. Barber?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. For sure. Now the big amount of money that was raised that you could never access with GoFundMe nor Gift & Go, there was a lot of people wanting access to that money; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you guys had to deal with people opportunistically wanting to try to find ways to access that money from you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's fair. That's fair. Okay. Just getting back to the hotel bills though, your hotel bill was paid for by someone else; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And was that Mr. Garrah that was paying for your hotel?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about Mr. King, Pat King, his hotel bill was paid as well by your group; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Didn't Mr. King approach you at times asking if the war room or the command centre could provide a large amount of money to pay off hotel bills of other supporters?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But him asking you to put you in -- him in touch with someone who had access to the money?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to ask you now about the honking. Now as a truck driver, can you tell us what are air horns and train horns for?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the purpose is because the trucks are so large to warn people from very, very, very far away that a truck is coming; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, air horns or train horns, same ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you're trained as a -- for your commercial license that air horns even in themselves can be dangerously loud; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But in this case, horns became a bit of a symbol for the truckers coming to Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And a symbol for the protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That wasn't my question. My question was that the horns became a bit of a symbol for the protest.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And once the truckers parked -- you didn't, I get that, but many of the trucks were honking all day and night; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And they were honking on a schedule of some type; correct? Like, it would be, like, 10 minutes straight for every 30 minutes or something like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, the block captains were -- and road -- the block captains were coordinating within each other about how and when to blow the horns; were they not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you've told us, and you testified that you put out several videos asking the truckers to stop honking and respect the residents; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But isn't it true, Mr. Barber, that your videos were just telling them not to blow the horns in the middle of the night?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
The -- just there's an HR -- I'm not going to ask to put it up because we don't have time, HRF183 is a video of February 1st from Tik Tok where you tell guys to stop honking and stop laying on the horns at 3 a.m., and the guys have stopped, which is nice. So you were asking guys not to lay on horns in the middle of the night?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or later that day?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You did put out a Tik Tok video on February 9th though, did you not, saying that if the police tried to come to a truck that they should -- notwithstanding the injunction, they should pull on their horns; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that's HRF000217, for the record. And, Mr. Barber, Mr. Wilson has put in an interview summary and we're going to hear from him tomorrow where he says that you were asking truckers to implement the quiet hours and to only honk between eight a.m. and eight p.m.; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A deal with whom?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I think we might -- I think we heard a little bit of evidence that Mr. Wilson and Ms. Chipiuk were trying to negotiate with the City saying if the truckers agreed to not oppose the renewal of the injunction to only keep honking between 8:00 a.m. and 8:00 p.m., so they were trying to get a deal like that, as I remember.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because the truck horns were all day. Even all day was quite ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a last couple questions, Mr. Barber. Have you ever met or communicated with Tyler Russell?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Derek Harrison?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Have you ever met or communicated with Alex Green?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And have you ever -- you’ve already been asked about Mr. MacKenzie.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I understand. All right. Thank you, Mr. Barber. Those are all my questions.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Merci Commisionner. Si c’est correct, je peux poser mes questions ici. Bon après-midi, Monsieur Charland je suis l’avocat pour la coalition des résidents et des entreprises d’Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Je suis désolé, mais je vais poser mes questions en anglais, comme mon ami M. Barber, je viens de la Saskatchewan et je ne parle pas bien en français.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M. Charland, I just want to know, you mentioned -- pardon. J’attend. Mr. Charland, you testified earlier that you had heard from Mr. King or from friends of Mr. King that he wanted some assistance for security. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And do you know what he needed security for? Why was he in danger or why would he require security?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He was threatened by whom; by the police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. It was a bit dangerous in downtown Ottawa at that time. Is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so then did you assist him in finding a place where he could stay safetly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so then did you ever meet with him or speak with him during the course of the demonstration?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you attend at the -- I’m sorry. I’m not sure how it would be called in French, but the bikers’ church in Vanier in Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You know that place? L’église de -- non?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Charland. Those are all the questions I have.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And Counsel, when was this document disclosed to the parties? Is this one of the documents that were disclosed this morning?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is this one of the -- sorry, is this one of the documents that were disclosed this morning?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Ms. Belton. My name is Paul Champ. I'm the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I just have some questions for you, further to your testimony today. You testified earlier, Ms. Belton, that it was not your intention to disrupt the lives of residents of downtown Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you did recognize that the activities of the protest, the trucks taking up all of the streets and the horns and so forth, did indeed disrupt resident who were living within the six or eight blocks of those activities?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And did you associate the people with downtown Ottawa with the Government of Canada? Like, did you assume that these were government -- federal government workers in some way who deserved that disruption?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on your arrival in the city, we've heard some evidence about a strategy to gridlock the city. Can you tell us about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What was the plan, as far as you understood, with the 400-plus semi tractor trailer trucks converging on downtown? Where did you think they would go?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were a road captain managing the convoy of trucks from Southwestern Ontario to Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Where -- sorry, what does that mean?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There is. You would have seen the apartment buildings there in front of your trucks?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With respect to mask mandates -- I understand your position with respect to vaccines -- you are also opposed to mask mandates; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were people in restaurants and stores throwing people to the ground? Is that what you observed?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you have sympathy or empathy for people who were elderly or had medical conditions where they'd be susceptible to dying from COVID-19?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to the mask mandates, there was a lot of people in the convoy demonstrations who were very opposed to masks and mask wearing, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Indeed, there was. I’m not sure if I understand the objection, Ms. Scharf.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think we’ve heard a great deal of evidence, if we follow the train ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, Ms. Belton, we’ve heard previous evidence from the police and others about some convoy protesters being very upset about people wearing masks and doing protests by going into stores and shops and restaurants in large groups without wearing masks. Did you observe those kinds of activities while you were here?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So when you went into restaurants and shops, you wore a mask during the convoy protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I take that as a no, you didn’t wear masks when you went into stores or restaurants ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And did you observe others that you’d go with into stores and shops wearing -- not wearing masks, the people you were with?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And what would -- how would people respond when shop owners or staff, sometimes young teenage staff would say, “Please where a mask”? What are some things you observed in those interactions?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No one ever asked, “Can you please where a mask or leave?”
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With respect to the money -- so you were aware before you got to Ottawa that there was the large fundraiser, people were raising funds to support the truckers with covering their fuel, and their food, and their -- and so forth; you were aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And -- but by the time you arrived in Ottawa, you recognize it was in the multimillions that had been raised; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you came to Ottawa, how long did you think you’d be staying?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you required $10M to stay 48 hours?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were planning to leave in 48 hours because you assumed the government was going to agree with your demands?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So what changed? Why didn’t you -- why did you stay after 48 hours?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, Ms. Belton, then, if I understand your answer correctly, your plan was to come for 48 hours assuming the Prime Minister would respond to your demands but, if he did not, you were going to stay until he did; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what are you saying?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were going to stay until you got your meeting?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were going to stay until you got your meeting?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you stayed in a -- you stayed in the Arc Hotel for most of the time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who paid your hotel bills?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And the -- there was also money raised in cash. You’ve told us in your testimony that, in the Arc Hotel, you were putting together envelopes to hand out to the truckers because many of them were staying -- living in their trucks; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they were living rough. That was very tough for them. And so you were putting together envelopes of $2,000 to assist them with their expenses; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, the fuel that they were getting, they were getting jerrycans of fuel and so forth to keep their trucks running to keep warm, I understand; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you were involved in it, though, right? You were involved in the logistics?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not everything, but you were involved in meetings where there’s discussions about how to get the fuel to those trucks that were still running?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And the fuel that they were getting, they were getting that for free because that was being provided by someone else; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You weren’t involved in those meetings?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, the envelopes that you were handing out, how often did you do that; how many rounds were there of envelopes being handed out?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
From the Arc Hotel?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the Sheraton Hotel, they were also handing out envelopes, is your understanding?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you testified, I believe, that you understood that the Sheraton was handing out ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Fair enough. Well, just for your assistance, Mr. Barber testified about that and, indeed, they were handing out ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And how would you know or how did you keep track if truckers were getting the same -- were getting envelopes from multiple groups.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Don’t I have 15 minutes, sir.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, if I may, Commissioner, ask for leave for five extra minutes. I think I was getting some longer responses than anticipated.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. I believe I’m trying to be on point for my clients. Thank you. So with respect to honking, Ms. Belton, as a truck driver, you’re aware airhorns and train horns can be extremely loud?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they’re -- trucks are heavy; they can be dangerous vehicles; they need very trained people to drive them; and if there’s a hazard or something far away, you use those very loud horns to ensure people absolutely know that the truck is coming or there might be a risk.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. But the sound of the horn, it can be dangerously if you continue to hold on it; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely, I agree with you. Now -- but the horns were used by the trucks as a sort of -- a symbol of the protest throughout their time in Ottawa; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I take that as a yes, that you’re aware that horns were used as a protest tactic?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Ms. Belton, there was a schedule of horns, was there not? There was a time -- they would start at 7:00 a.m. and go on throughout the day; isn’t that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not that you’re aware of? You were downtown; you didn’t hear those horns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You say that you tried to control the horns; is that right? Is that what you’re telling us?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Some of the other organizers, though, very much supported the horns at any time; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, in your discussions, like, for example, with Pat King, Pat King was very much in support of the horn, was he not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In emergency use only?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Just a final point, Ms. Belton, you’ve testified that the mayor’s deal that we’ve heard about, your understanding at the time was that that was fake news; it wasn’t true; there was no deal; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the people that you knew and that you were dealing with at the Arc Hotel opposed any deal in any event; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what are -- so you would have supported a deal? If there had in fact been a deal to move the trucks to different locations, you would have supported that kind of a deal?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So in your view, the people of Downtown Ottawa were unfortunate casualties. If the Prime Minister had listened to you, what happened to the, those three weeks of sleeplessness and so forth, that wouldn't have happened? It's the Prime Minister's fault?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you inflicted that on my clients ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- so that you could get your message back to ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize, Mr. Leon, Commissioner. I'd just like to just make a note on the record or perhaps a small objection. Ms. Belton testified yesterday that -- on the mayor's deal, and it was her understanding that it was all completely fake news, I think, was the terminology she used. And as I understand it, Mr. Wilson is now testifying that this deal was sent to Ms. Belton as one of the convoy organizers and that they all agreed to it. I just note, in fairness to the witness, I don’t think that was put to her by the Commission, nor the convoy organizers or Freedom Corp. So I mean, we're all working very hard, herculean, and we're missing lots of things at times, just because of the pace, but I think this is a rather important point, that it's unfortunate we didn’t hear from Ms. Belton on that issue.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. Commissioner, I'm going to -- I don't think I'll have any difficulty finishing within time. I'd just like to advise City of Ottawa has offered their time to me in the event I get close. Mr. Wilson, I just have a few questions for you on your testimony from this morning. First is with respect to your flight to Ottawa, how you got here.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There's a news report that that was on a charter flight operated by Northern Air Charter; is that correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And apparently that company is now under investigation by Transport Canada for carrying unvaccinated people on that flight. Are you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And who originally offered to pay for the flight? Was that Mr. Bourgault?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, before you got on the plane, I understand from the interview summary of Mr. Eros that there was a virtual meeting or Zoom meeting on or about January 31st where there was yourself, Andre Memauri, Brian Peckford, Tamara Lich, himself, and Joseph Bourgault. Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was there another virtual call with Mr. Bourgault and yourself and Mr. Eros?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. When you arrived in Ottawa you testified that it was apparent to you that Ms. Lich really was the leader of this movement. You said that it seemed that people listened to her. She seemed to command a lot of respect, and so forth. That’s right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I guess, was it also in part because people new that she had control over the $10 million from GoFundMe? That’s why she was the leader?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I wasn’t going to ask a question on this but I couldn’t help when I heard your testimony about the horn injunction. You testified that you advised your clients that the horns were a problem and that you expected that the injunction would be granted. And you were asked a couple of times by Commission counsel about whether your clients opposed the injunction. Just to be clear, your clients opposed that injunction, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You had argued that the horns were not irreparable harm and Ms. Lee should wear earplugs. Do you remember -- to sleep. Do you remember those arguments?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I won’t go further down the road of the different arguments that were made. But then on the continuation of the injunction a week later, I remember that that became a bargaining point with the City? You were offering to the City that perhaps your clients wouldn’t oppose the continuation of Ms. Lee’s horn injunction if they did certain things; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, that’s correct. You did not oppose the second one. I want to ask you some questions about dealings with the police. Now, you've testified that you were hearing at times that there were police raids imminent at different times during the protest and we did hear some evidence from the police tht there were raids planned at times but that then were aborted. So it sounds like you might have had some solid intelligence on that; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, those new revelations, I think, that’s one issue your clients and my clients can agree on for sure. Now, but you were getting information from sympathetic police; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Throughout?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that if people could cook, they were cooking? If they were IT people they were helping you with that? If they were communications people ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- they were helping you with that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, on some of the things that people were doing cooperatively with the convoy, we heard from both Ms. Belton and Mr. Barber about the distribution of cash to truckers. You were -- you know that that was going on, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You observed it? And they were trying to keep track of how much cash was being put in each envelope before it was being distributed?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Eros, he was one of the directors of Freedom Corp, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So he was gathering or trying to keep track of that money on behalf of Freedom Corp, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so as an advisor to Freedom Corp at that time, you were aware that they were managing this distribution of funds and cash out to the truckers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And he had estimated that it seemed that around $20,000 per day was being raised through cash and e-transfers. Do you have any reason to dispute that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So in your statement you say that some people were at the protest for money. Is -- getting all of this cash, do you think that was an incentive for the truckers to stay?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And those trucks -- 300 to 400 semi tractor-trailers operating 24 hours, or idling 24 hours a day required of diesel fuel; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. But who was paying for all of that fuel; the big trucks, that fuel at Coventry?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So just a couple of last points, Mr. Wilson, just about some of the people who you’re involved with. Pat King, you testified that you knew him from about a year before the convoy protest, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Sky’s from Ontario, generally speaking, but Mr. King is from Alberta like yourself; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, I’m aware of that. But Mr. King, he is in Alberta, so you did have some interactions with him?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but I assume you don’t have interactions with all of them. I’m asking about Mr. King, not all four million ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. King -- my understanding, he was a supporter of Western separatism, and so forth, Wexit, and those kinds of movements; were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were you involved in those movements; Western separatism, Wexit?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, just the last person I want to ask you about, while you’re talking about French, Mr. Dean French. Mr. French called you a patriot, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, he supported the movement wholeheartedly, did he not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I thought I understood from your text that Mr. French, he’s the one that arranged that interview with you and Fox News, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But he was assisting you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I was surprised to see you on legacy media like Fox News, by the way.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This last piece, did Mr. French ever indicate to you whether he had had any communications with Premier Ford, about his views about the protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just wondered if he ever communicated anything like that to you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just on that, though, that Ms. Lich also put out a livestream on Facebook, saying she wasn’t supporting the deal that night.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s not true? Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon. My name is Paul Champ. I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just a couple of questions, Mr. Marazzo, following your testimony.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I note we didn’t get an interview summary for you from the Commission counsel. Is that because you refused to sit down with Commission counsel for an interview?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then turning to your activities in Ottawa in February earlier this year, which hotel did you stay in again?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And who paid for your hotel? Mr. Bourgault, I gather?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you stayed in a hotel room for about three weeks and you don’t know who paid for it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we know through a variety of means that a significant amount of money was raised with respect to the convoy demonstration. Did you have some of your expenses covered, aside from the hotel?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you didn’t get any cash to cover any of your travel expenses or anything like that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you've told us that you were doing logistics for the convoy but it’s a little bit unclear to me exactly what you were doing. You were managing truck locations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Anything else?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And I heard you talking about the transition but it was unclear to me what you transitioned from. What logistics were you doing?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you told us that you were trying to manage where the trucks were, figure out where they all were and map them out, how many trucks, and try to get an accurate count and so forth.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But it was put to you by Commission counsel about Kent Street. Now, we’ve heard police evidence, evidence from a resident and actually Chris Barber himself testify that Kent Street was almost completely blocked throughout the entire convoy. Every once ion a while the emergency would get it open but it would almost instantly be closed up again. And predominantly there was no emergency lane on that street. So I'm surprised, Mr. Marazzo, you don’t remember that one street.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why is that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s helpful. I must have misunderstood your evidence. I thought that’s what you were doing. You would agree with me, Mr. Marazzo, city buses -- there’s no way they could get through anywhere downtown, correct? That’s an easy one.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A bus could have gone up and down Metcalfe all day long, back and forth, I guess?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But presumably if people wanted to go anywhere other than up and down Metcalfe they wouldn’t be able to access the city bus.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Similarly and particularly, individuals who require Para Transpo buses, they weren’t getting anywhere through downtown, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s correct.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn’t observe any though?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just moving to a different topic, police leaks -- you were getting information about what the police were planning ahead of time through sympathetic police officers; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were kind of like the clearing house for the intelligence, I guess, for the convoy?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Moving on to another topic, you testified about the slow roll ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- Pat King's slow roll around the airport, and that you cooperated, to some extent, assisting with that; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And but you also told us there was some value to it as well.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That it was sending a message to the City that the vehicles could move around and could move to other areas of the city ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- if necessary?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the slow roll was a warning to the City that if the police did some kind of enforcement action, the truckers might retaliate in some way?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just to be clear what we're talking about here, the game meaning the police enforcing the law. If the police attempt to enforce the law, the truckers, given their size and their numbers, will escalate towards the City of Ottawa and the residents; correct? That's what you mean?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- with respect to Mr. King, Mr. King you understood, people didn't want to deal with him because some of his comments online about bullets and so forth were distasteful; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don't think Mr. King was discrediting himself by saying the Prime Minister's going to catch a bullet?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about his online comments about race and the Anglo-Saxon race, were those kinds of comments discrediting the movement?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Mr. Barber, his online racist comments, was that discrediting the movement?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And then finally, Diagolon, you said that this was a joke, and it was about creating a diagonal state of people who don't wear masks. Isn't it, in fact, the case that the concept for the images of the diagonal state where there would only be white people who would live in it, and they could get all non-white people out; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does he have a Jewish accountant as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Does he have a Jewish accountant as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- have you looked at Mr. MacKenzie's online rants? You've seen them? Do you find -- do you think that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. King, my name is Paul Champ and I'm a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses of Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just give us a call.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Are you talking about the funds in your Alberta Treasury Branch?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How many e-transfers ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How many e-transfers did you get into that account, Mr. King?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So people across Canada are donating for your children’s, child’s education fund? That’s what it was for?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. You were raising money for the Freedom Convoy trip; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And so -- and they donated $100,000 to you, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How much?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don’t know. So you don’t know if was $100,000 or not.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, you can check the court records. You raised $100,000 for yourself.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No. I will ask you to be removed if this doesn't stop. You've been very good so far. Please.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I don’t think you're helping. Just answer the questions and we’ll get through this properly.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This isn’t supposed to be a show. It’s supposed to be a questions and answers and I realize you feel quite ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- strongly about things.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, myself as well. Mr. King, I’d just like to ask you about the 2019 United We Roll convoy. You've told us that was a successful protest, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was. You organized a number of people, you and others -- Mr. Carrique and others. You got a number of trucks together including semi truck trailers. You came across Canada. You got a lot of media all the way across Canada, came through Ottawa and generated a lot of attention to your issues, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, a successful protest.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So for the Freedom Convoy protest in February why did you stay for so long?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Mr. King, where did you -- you said you stayed at the Holiday Inn; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then where did you stay?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That’s we had heard -- Ms. Belton testified she thought you were staying in a hotel out of downtown. I guess the horns were getting to you downtown; is that why you changed hotels?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why did you change hotels?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why didn’t you go to the ARC Hotel or the Sheraton Hotel or the Swiss Hotel? There was lots of rooms there.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And who paid for your hotels while you were in Ottawa, Mr. King?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With the donations that you got to make the trip?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, I'm asking.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You're the person I'm asking.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was a question, and ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- are you answering yes, that’s how you ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Paid for it, so I apologize. You got donations to come here and it's with those donations that you paid for the hotel rooms; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there's other people who were supporters of you who you also assisted in getting funds to pay for their hotel rooms. So in fairness, you were raising money to help others as well, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely. And you were also working with Mr. Barber and the others about getting funds for other people that you helped bring to Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Like, to pay for hotels for other people who were supporters.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would sometimes connect with Mr. Barber and Ms. Lich to see if they could assist funds as well; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You communicated regularly with Mr. Barber throughout.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, through texts.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did Mr. Barber or Ms. Lich ever talk to you about trying to get the truckers to lay off their horns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, with respect to the slow roll around the airport or to the airport, I take it that was just, you were bored, we heard that, but it was also a little bit of a message to the City of Ottawa; is that right, that vehicles could move, move to other areas of the city if provoked?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was it -- why did you choose that day? Was it because the police had just done the raid at the -- at Coventry?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You made it down to Coventry a number of times; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Every day? You're a popular figure there, I gather?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And how -- you were there often. Do you know where the fuel was coming from into Coventry?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure, but, like, can you give us any specific names of those grateful patriots?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You have no idea or you don’t want to answer?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You knew some of those guys?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You knew some of those guys personally?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, they were very upset.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you were in communication with people who were involved at the Windsor blockade?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you talked to people who went ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, the police? So they ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the people who got tickets that night and arrested were upset. You were upset by that, and that’s one of the reasons why you organized the slow roll around the airport of Ottawa; is that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What did you do because you were upset about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Mr. King, you could not and did not know everyone who was in Ottawa during that protest, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, thousands anyway, for sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, just -- we'll agree to disagree there weren’t hundreds of thousands, but you -- it was a bit of a dangerous situation with all those people downtown; would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, dangerous that you don’t know what people might have in their trucks, you don’t know what they might do, they are very upset, they're very angry. Was that a dangerous situation for downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well then, why did you ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Why did you need security then yourself? It was so dangerous that you yourself needed security; isn't that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So that was dangerous, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just for you? You were the only person in downtown Ottawa who was at risk; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. King, we've heard evidence that many federal elected officials, the mayor of Ottawa, had received death threats. We've heard evidence that someone was actually arrested with firearms who was coming to Ottawa who had been making threats about ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I am asking the questions, Mr. King.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So but you would agree with me that it was probably a dangerous situation for elected officials in Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. King. You yourself said that someone who is maybe stressed out because of lockdowns and so forth might be compelled to shoot Mr. Trudeau. So you understood ----
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- recognized that that was a risk, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, so but everyone was all -- they were all settled down by the time the convoy came and there was no threats to anyone?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So the only person who's at risk in Ottawa was Pat King? All the other threats to anyone else in Ottawa were all fake; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I disagree, Mr. King. Ottawa has dozens of large protests, many much larger than the one that you organized, every single year.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, Mr. Commissioner ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'll just note -- Mr. Commissioner, I'll just note for the record that the people of Ottawa got one morning in this proceeding. We've had a week of all of these convoy organizers given a full platform to say whatever they want. The people in Ottawa respect the right to protest, and these folks are getting their time to tell -- say everything they want ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon, Mr. Bauder. My name is Paul Champ. I’m lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I just have some questions for you -- -
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- on your testimony. Nice to meet you. The MOU, people could sign that or show support for it online?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And to your knowledge, did the other -- or some of convoy organizers, did some of them sign it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s fine.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s fine. No problem. So next I just want to talk to you a little bit about what the plan was when you were coming to Ottawa. You know, seeing some of the videos and what not, and your Zoom call on January 23rd with Mr. Barber, and Ms. Belton, and Mr. King. What was the plan when you were going to come to downtown Ottawa? You were -- you were going to try to, like, encircle downtown? Was that what Operation Bear Hug was?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I’d ask the clerk to bring up Document COMM00838. That’s the transcript. While he’s calling that up, I want to ask you another question about some of the protest tactics you were thinking about when you came to Ottawa this time. Was it discussed or was it planned to have groups of people without masks go into restaurants and shops and stores?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That was part of the plan ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- to make the point that you’re free people who ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- could where you want?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But the plan was as a form of protest, to go into restaurants and shops without masks to show that you were ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I know I'm going to regret doing this, but the Canadian Bill of Rights has property rights. What about the property rights of the restaurant or the shop owners? Why couldn't they ask people to not come in unless they're wearing masks? Didn’t they have those rights, or was your rights more important than their rights?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
If you could just bring up page 27, and while that’s coming up, I'll ask you just another question on that, Mr. Bauder. But wasn’t that maybe a little bit of a recipe for conflict at times if a store owner or like, a teenage staff asked people to leave who weren’t wearing masks and they wouldn't leave? Wasn’t that a risk of some conflict there?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So because the government imposed those unlawful mandates, that gave you and the people ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- that you and protest with could then override the rights of a staff?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or could threaten a staff who -- -
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Please, if I could finish? So but when a staff member would ask people to leave, you saw some conflicts in stores and restaurants, didn’t you, Mr. Bauder?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but you saw some in Ottawa while there were several thousands of people at downtown and big trucks going in ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if we could just scroll to near the bottom of this page where it starts, "Mr. Patrick King", just up a bit? "Mr. Patrick King: You lit the spark here again, but it's not just going to roll into Ottawa and parking the trucks for a couple of days. James, give them an idea of what's going --- "
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I apologize.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
"James, give then an idea of what's going to partake in Ottawa when we're there, just an idea. Don’t let the cat out of the bag just yet, but let them - - give them a little bit of an idea." What was the cat in the bag at that point, Mr. Bauder? Do you recall?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
This is -- sorry, this is -- I apologize, Mr. Bauder. This is a transcript of your Zoom call with Ms. Belton and Mr. Barber and Mr. King on January the 23rd as you were planning. If we go through -- maybe this will assist your memory. So at the bottom, it says: "Mr. James Bauder: Okay. Well, you know, let's see here. What is a BearHug detail? Well, A) we're going to have some fun doing a bunch of convoys all over Ottawa. Okay. We won't mention where, but we're going to have fun, definitely going a whole -- a different pile of convoy activities. We may potentially convoy over to Justin Trudeau's house." "Good," says Mr. Barber. "Mr. James Bauder: You know, little things like that. We may get stuck on a couple of bridges, things like that." So that was part of the plan, Mr. Bauder, is to maybe block bridges for a period of time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But what you did in 2019, Mr. Bauder ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, so ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Absolutely. Well, you ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. You didn’t have anything to do with organizing.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you participated in that protest in 2019, and that protest in which you participated with a number of trucks in a convoy. You came from staging areas a few times a day, drove around downtown a few times around the Parliament Buildings and then would go back, and you did that a few days, and that was a successful protest.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, it wasn’t? So this time, you had to do something more; is that right? Right? That was the plan, you had to do something more? You had to not simply come downtown, you had to stay downtown and create a bear hug around downtown; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, Operation BearHug is your words, but is that what it meant? You wanted to do something different and bigger this time; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s right. So you needed to increase the volume, so to speak?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You had to encircle downtown and apply some pressure, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, encircle, have trucks all around downtown.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, so. Okay. And apply pressure?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So -- all right, Mr. Bauder. Just -- I only have a couple more minutes here with you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I want to ask you about horns. Now, the horns, when they're very loud and when they're all going at the same time, I've heard it described as something that’s almost biblical. Is that something how you would describe it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, and that’s where I was going to go. Joshua Book 6 talks about how you bring down the walls of Jericho with the trumpets, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I'm nearly finished here, Mr. Bauder. I just want to understand. So you haven't read the Bible but it sounds like you know the story of Jericho, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, and that inspired you a bit for the tactics for the convoy protest in Ottawa, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you raised it before I did, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I don’t want to get into a big discussion about your faith, Mr. Bauder. I respect your faith. I just want to understand to what extent your faith inspired the tactics that you suggested and worked on with others with Ottawa. So it's my understanding with Jericho, the plan was to encircle the city. They walked around the city six days ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- in a row.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Oh, and on Saturday, the first day of the protest, Saturday the 29th, isn't that what the trucks did? They did a circle around the Parliament Buildings, they went across the bridges over to Gatineau and around, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. No, no, this one in -- on January of ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you very much, Mr. Bauder.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Objection.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Objection. I'm not sure how that's relevant.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Commissioner, that's Paul Champ on the record. I apologize for not saying it earlier for the purposes of transcripts. I just know I didn't ask Mr. Bauder any questions about his many hateful comments about Islam, his many hateful and bigoted comments about homosexuals.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I agree.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I didn't think it was relevant when I asked, but that's why I'm asking why Mr. Bauder is given an opportunity to answer those kinds of questions whether -- which are otherwise irrelevant.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, Mr. Bauder has asked -- he's made many comments about unity. If that's relevant to the Commission, I could ask -- I would ask for to ask him some questions about his views on unity.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. Bauder, you've testified many times about your love and brotherhood for others and your love of unity, but you would agree with me, you don't feel unity towards all Canadians? It does not include Canadians, for example, of Islamic faith; isn't that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You are upset that you feel the Government of Canada promotes Islamic ideologies. You've said that before; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So you've said that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, that's good. I appreciate that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I appreciate that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I thank you. I appreciate that. Now we've seen some documents up there where you've referred to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as Justine Trudeau. Why ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- do you refer to him as Justine Trudeau?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Are you trying to suggest something, it's emasculating, or making some kind of comments or suggestion that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- he's a ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Was it a typo? It's your words, sir.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, are you telling us that it's a typo, or were you trying to suggest something because you think it's somehow negative to be of transgender and so forth? Is that what you mean?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just have another matter, Mr. Commissioner, later this morning.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Ms. Lich. My name is Paul Champ; I’m lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, and I have some questions for you concerning your testimony yesterday. Now, I want to start with something, Ms. Lich, that I think we both agree on; you’re not a national security threat in any way?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I also want to make sure that we’re clear on the record; as you know, I’ve able to see a lot of financial information and so forth in other proceedings and so forth, and you did everything you could to keep track of that money and deal with it responsibly, the money that was going to your account?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in no way did you ever divert any of that money towards yourself improperly? And I’m saying that, that’s what I’ve seen; you dealt very responsibly in every way you could with the money?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you also testified yesterday you wanted to come to Ottawa for the right reasons. And by that I mean you wanted to organize with other people, bring people together over that issue, that was important to you, and send a message to the government and to your fellow Canadians; that’s what you wanted to do in coming to Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you testified yesterday that you originally thought you just wanted to drive across Canada, stand in front of Parliament with some signs, and you thought that’s what the protest would be, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. But then once the enormous amounts of money started flowing in through GoFundMe and, you know, people were energized around that, it opened up other options of what this protest could look like; is that fair?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But it made other things possible; like, you were able to get the stages and the sound system, and the resources to cover fuel and so forth for a much longer period than you had originally anticipated; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. So -- but once you had a lot more, that opened up options that you could keep getting fuel to the trucks for a while, while they were here; that is part of the idea?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we saw some -- or I read a news story about some texts that you had with Mr. Barber.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I presume you’re aware of the news story and those texts?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in those texts, it’s my understanding that you had some exchanges with Mr. Barber on or about January 30th about a strategy meeting at the Command Centre about gridlocking Ottawa. Can you tell us about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But there was a talk about that, is that this should be the strategy going forward is keeping trucks in the streets, gridlocking downtown; that was part of the strategy at that point.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Unfortunately we heard that he didn't necessarily know about all the streets. He didn't know about Kent Street, for example, which even Mr. Barber acknowledged was shut down the whole time. So -- but you didn't have any visibility into that. That wasn't part of your responsibility I gather.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you some questions about the horns. You testified yesterday that at some point, even for you, the horns became a bit too much; you couldn't even carry on a conversation on the sidewalk when all those trucks were blaring?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And the -- I think I had seen video once when you were talking when all the semi-trucks when they blow their horns it's just crazy.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That was the experience, was it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Ms. Lich, I know you strike me as a very reasonable person. You would agree with me that, you know, having a big rig, a semi-truck idling right in front of your house 24 hours a day, emitting diesel fumes, honking horns prolonged periods during all day, sometimes at night, that's not reasonable to a person that lives there. Would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you wouldn't want a big rig to pull up, for example, in front of your parents' home and park and idle for 24 hours a day for several weeks honking their horn. You wouldn't want that, would you Ms. Lich?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, it's not pleasant is it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, but then you get to home. You get to get away from that noise and those diesel fumes; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, I want to ask you some questions about the injunction. We -- on February 4th to the 5th, you heard about that there was a motion from the residents of Ottawa to get an injunction to stop the horn honking; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we heard from Mr. Wilson a bit about that, that there was a meeting of the board or the leadership group about what to do, and there was a decision to oppose the injunction; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, you swore an affidavit to impose the injunction, Ms. Lich, let's be clear on that; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, no, there was a court hearing on Monday, February the 7th, where Mr. Wilson represented you, and Mr. Barber, and Mr. Dichter, who were named individuals on it, to oppose the injunction. You were -- you weren't aware that that's what the position you were taking?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you swore an affidavit in support of that position, which I should say swore an affidavit that the injunction should not be granted?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Is it fair to say there was a lot going on?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was hard to follow all the different things that were happening?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you may not have known exactly what the team was doing on some of those issues?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, Mr. Wilson told us yesterday that on the board there were some who -- there was a bit of a division on the board. Some felt that, "yeah, the horns are a bit too much, and you know, maybe we shouldn't oppose this injunction", and some were like, "no, we should oppose it." Do you recall that meeting?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And you testified yesterday that once the injunction was issued you worked very hard or worked really hard to see that it was adhered to. Do you recall your testimony on that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But you, yourself, you didn't do anything directly to ensure that the Order was adhered to, did you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No. You didn't post any videos or make any statements on your social media account attempting to discourage the truckers from blowing their horns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn't put up anything on it before it was deleted?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you also, you never posted a copy of the court's injunction Order or the terms of it in any way on any of your social media; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you aware that that was a term of the court Order that you were supposed to do that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So Mr. Wilson may not have communicated that to you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, February 4th, that's Friday, that was the -- well, I'll give the day because I'm sure it was like a ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. I'm sure your days were crazier than mine, but I have a bit of a sense of what you were going through. February -- Friday, February the 4th, that's the day that GoFundMe issued the statement saying they're shutting off the -- shutting down the ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- fundraiser and they were going to return all the money to the donors. Do you recall that day?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when GoFundMe shut you down, you lost what was potentially access to $10 million; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And GoFundMe put out a statement that day saying, quote, "This previously peaceful demonstration has become an occupation." Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And by that point, you had also, I gather, had been following some of the news stories, some of the reporting talking about the negative impact that the protest was having on residents, you know, caused by the blocking of streets and the honking. Were you following that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And on that Friday, February 4th, after GoFundMe took away that $10 million, you learned later that day that you were being sued for $10 million. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that was a bit of a rotten day, losing 10 million, being sued for 10 million?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, did you consider or talk about with anyone else maybe working on an exit strategy at that point?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And after that one day, when GoFundMe shuts you down, did you -- would that have been a time for you to start thinking about shutting down the protest or coming up and saying, "Hey guys, we sent our message", and going home? Was that ever part of the discussion?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But -- and -- but you told us yesterday also, another factor was that the lawyers from the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, they had showed up and they were giving you advice, they were supporting you by that point; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
They had been there a day or two by that time?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it fair to say that without them you might have considered packing it in?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So on the Friday, February the 4th, GoFundMe shuts you down, you're sued for $10 million. Then on the Sunday, February the 6th, the City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency. Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then the next day, on Monday, the 7th, the court issued the horn injunction. So did you start thinking then, or was there any discussions then about maybe the protesters should start packing it in?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then on February the 11th, Premier Ford in Ontario, they declared a state of emergency about what was happening in Ottawa. Do you recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Weren't you getting the -- you testified yesterday, Ms. Lich, that while no one told you to leave, the police weren't telling you to leave, all of these things, you know, the Premier, the Mayor, the courts, GoFundMe, that wasn't a message, the City of Ottawa, residents suing, that wasn't a message that maybe it was time to leave?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And so -- and that was more important than what the people of Ottawa ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you reached the deal with he Mayor around Sunday, the 12th, I believe or ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
-- the 13th. No, the 13th ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- or something like that, that's right. And the Freedom Convoy put out a statement about the deal. You recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in the statement you said things like you never wanted to impact the residents of downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you wanted to agree to the deal to relieve the pressure on the people in downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because there had been pressure on the people of downtown Ottawa by that point?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because from January 29 until February the 13th, you recognise it wasn't very respectful to the people of downtown Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Except for those that are suing you, I guess.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the mayor, who was elected by the citizens of Ottawa, he apparently wasn't supportive of you staying downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and let's just be clear here, Ms. Lich, no one was asking you to leave completely. It was about moving the trucks and having the trucks stop idling out in front of residences and blowing the horns all night and day. That was the big ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- message; wasn't it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now you testified yesterday that once the Emergencies Act was issued and it looks like there was going to be action, law enforcement moving in, you testified that you encouraged people to leave; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you didn't do that on social media in any way; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it was just people who you saw face-to-face you were telling them to leave?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn't think maybe it would be better you had so much influence on people who were here in Ottawa protesting that you should put it out on social media, that, hey, you guys, maybe it's time for us to leave?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, and obviously, another thing that you didn't, Ms. Lich, is, from my understanding of your testimony yesterday, you suspected you were about to be arrested, and you went out to the street to ask the police officers, or have someone ask the police officers if they were looking for you; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you went out with someone who could record the arrest when it occurred; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. And when you were arrested, I didn't hear Commission counsel ask you this, but as you were being arrested, you were yelling, "Hold the line"; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And by that statement, I take it you weren't encouraging the other protesters to leave Ottawa; were you? You were encouraging them to stay to hold the line; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But you'd agree with me, Ms. Lich, that some people who were protesting, who were following you at that time, when they saw that message, they would have interpreted to hold the line to stay, hold the line, don't leave Ottawa. Some might have interpreted that way; would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You don't think that's -- well, when you speak and you've got that kind of a platform, you recognise that people are listening to you, you have a great deal of influence on those people?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So just assist me with this, Ms. Lich, I'm just -- I'm trying to reconcile you telling us that you were encouraging people to leave, but you didn't put anything out on social media, but then you were with only one or two people at the time you were arrested, someone that you -- you knew who recorded that video; don't you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, you know that person personally?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and so they recorded it. You were aware, you saw them recording; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And then you yell out hold the line, because you wanted the people to stay in downtown Ottawa; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Ms. Lich, just one last point. For reasons that remain utterly unclear to me, Commission counsel asked you yesterday about the impact of your arrest and your charges against you. And I just want to make clear, you weren't charged with an offence under the Emergencies Act; were you? It's my understanding you've been charged under the Criminal Code?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. You were charged under the Criminal Code for mischief and charged for interference with lawful use enjoyment both under the Criminal Code; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, but no offence under the Emergencies Act?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the indictment talks about activities from February the 7th up until February I think 19th or the date that you were arrested; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or the start of the date is before the invocation of the Emergencies Act; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Ms. Lich.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good afternoon Mr. MacKenzie, I’m not sure if you can see me there. My name is Paul Champ; ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- I’m a lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses, the people from downtown Ottawa. Just have a couple of questions for you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You mentioned in your testimony about getting the screen captures of texts, group texts from RCMP officers. You got that from a current RCMP member, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And do you occasionally have interactions of people who are fans, or interested in what you say, or supporters who are current members of law enforcement?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And while you were in Ottawa, were you -- during the convoy protests, were you in communication with some of these individuals who are current law enforcement members and are supporters of yours?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And have you ever been in contact with, or anyone communicated to you who is a current member of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service who’s a supporter of you, or a fan of you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And you mentioned that you had three or four people, or sometimes as many as 20 people, staying with you in the same location in Ottawa, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And those were up to 20 people who were supporters or fans of yours?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And some of these people were former members of the military or current members of the military; veterans like yourself?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Did any of them -- did any of them bring any firearms with them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For sure. Yeah, you were concerned about that, right; that some people in the protest might undermine the purpose of the protest by becoming violent. And you didn’t want that to happen; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And that’s why you made that message out to people to not be violent, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Because you knew some of the people who were there could be volatile and could be violent, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you were in Ottawa did you have contact with Mr. Randy Hillier?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
While you were in Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you got the information about the RCMP text, did you pass that on to anyone in the convoy leadership?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you met with Mr. Hillier. Did you meet with any other elected political officials while you were in Ottawa during the convoy protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Either federally or provincially?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you’d indicated in your testimony that you met Ms. Tamara Lich this summer?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And the two of you, you were discussing -- what was the topic you were discussing; this upcoming Inquiry, or other issues?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
For your legal situation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. MacKenzie.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good evening now, Mr. Bulford, I guess we can say. My name is Paul Champ, for the record, for the Ottawa Coalition Residents and Businesses. Mr. Bulford, I just want to ask you about the first thing you were talking about. You were concerned about being disciplined for speaking out about vaccine rules and restrictions?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you were concerned about being disciplined for speaking out about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’m very sorry to hear that. I think that would have been totally inappropriate.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, I've represented RCMP officers for over 20 years, including people for speaking publicly and if things had been different I would have been happy to represent you on that. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your drive around with Sgt. Frost on the eve of the protests. So the two of you drove around looking at appropriate spots for the trucks to park; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And during that drive, did the two of you discuss in any way about how long the protest might last?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure, because you've told us that you expected the protest would last until the federal government dropped the vaccine mandates and rules; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is that what you conveyed to Sgt. Frost?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, I just want to ask you as an aside about the crowd size. You indicated that it was the largest crowd you had ever observed in Ottawa?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I believe some of the records we have from police records that the size of the crowds were in the 10,000 to 15,000 range; does that sound about right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What did you think the size was?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
M’hm.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So do you think that the police were recording false information deliberately or they just assessed it differently than you?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Could it be that you maybe just -- it was hard for you to assess because all the trucks took up so much space, it was tough to assess the size?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And when you do overwatch you’re up on top of the buildings, like Langevin Block and stuff like that, so you’d have a better eye view of the crowd.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you weren’t able to be up on those buildings during this time, right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, I want to ask you about the dance parties you told us about. You thought those parties were Fridays and Saturday nights?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you and I, I don’t think, are so far off in age. You weren’t going out to the dance parties every night, I gather, Mr. Bulford?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, I understand. And so if there were dance parties on Wednesdays and Thursday nights you wouldn’t necessarily know.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your interactions with law enforcement. We’ve already heard a lot of your evidence on that, about your interactions with PLTs. But you also had interactions with officers who were off duty; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes, exactly.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And just to be clear, I’m not going to be asking for names. I'm just trying to understand, because we heard the testimony from Mr. Wilson the other day who ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I just want to understand it. So was Mr. Wilson getting that information from others?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
How many people are we talking about here, roughly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A dozen. And so each one of those officers would have had their own network of contacts in law enforcement; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And could have been getting information from current law enforcement?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. I want to ask you about a different topic, Mr. Bulford. Now, the convoy organizers -- Ms. Lich, Mr. Barber, others, yourself -- you were doing everything possible to convey to protesters to refrain from any kind of violence, correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But because you were security you were dealing with threats at times; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Bulford, my understanding is you were concerned and were doing what you could to protect the convoy organizer leaders; is that right, like, coordinating with some of the other officers to ensure that Mr. Barber and Ms. Lich and so forth were safe?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, Ms. Lich, she very successfully raised large money -- amount of money from GoFundMe but, you know, we heard her testimony. She was encountering all kinds of difficulty in accessing any of that money. You knew about that at the time; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there was many people who were very angry at her for not being able to produce that money. There is different theories and so forth that she was deliberately not giving the money to them and so forth. There was that going around; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure. But what I’m getting at is that, you know, although Ms. Lich was trying to convey what she was, you know, trying to do to get -- to get the access to the GoFundMe money to help the truckers, which, you know, we’ve seen all the documents. That’s what she was doing. But some people at that protest who were wanting access to that money, perhaps had driven a long way, they were getting very frustrated and she was -- was she getting threats from some of those people?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, none.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So what was the security detail for?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And everyone else who wanted access to that money who’d driven across the country, spent thousands of dollars, they were just content to sit and they weren’t angry about not getting access to the money.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir -- Mr. Bulford, you’re a professional; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’re a professional security detail protecting very important people; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Let’s just like be honest with each other. Someone in her situation, if you’d assessed that as a professional, you would have thought she might be at risk, her physical safety. The people wanting access to that money who weren’t getting it were frustrated. That was a -- that was a reasonable threat assessment, was it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you’re aware also, Mr. Bulford, that GoFundMe, they were concerned because they -- some of their staff were getting threats for not releasing the money. Were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You never heard about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But that was some of the concerns at GoFundMe, so the -- Ms. Lich and Mr. Wilson and so forth never shared that with you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
What about fuel providers who then decided to stop providing fuel. Did you ever hear about any of them getting threats?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. Well, from anyone.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Companies who had stopped.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, what about tow truck drivers? We’ve heard a lot about tow truck drivers. Were there any threats to tow truck drivers if they tried to assist law enforcement? Had you heard anything about that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Right. And what about Mr. King? Did you ever view him in any way as a threat to any of the other convoy organizers?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’d never heard of him threatening or intimidating any of the other leaders?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mr. King had a couple of very large people with him and was intimidating Mr. Eros?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No doubt. Now, what about media? Now, I know, obviously, you’re not very supportive or don’t consume what you call legacy media, but you were aware, had heard of that reporters for some of those organizations downtown were often being threatened while they were down trying to cover the convoy demonstrations. You were aware of that, Mr. Bulford?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Mr. Raymond Filion with TVA was pushed to the ground?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or Mr. Evan Solomon from CTV News had a beer can thrown at his head?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You hadn’t seen any of the other videos or just on your walkabouts ever seen reporters for CBC or Global, whatnot, of crowds swarming around them and yelling and -- yelling at them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So you didn’t see any of those things.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then the legacy media, as you call it, you believe that they were misrepresenting the convoy. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so when you say legacy media, you’re talking about CTV, CBC, Global News, Post Media, all of those?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. And then -- so was it your understanding or belief that they were all kind of working together in some way to cover the convoy in a certain way?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I thought your earlier testimony was that you weren’t really watching them during convoy. Were you watching them or you weren’t watching them?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But just the whole phrase “legacy media”, I’m just trying to understand what that means. Legacy media, that means like old media that can’t be trusted?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Mainstream.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sure.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But all journalists, all story, they all have an agenda that’s counter to -- to the people that you support? Is that what your understanding is?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All journalists with legacy media.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Just last point, Mr. Bulford. I heard Mr. Migicovsky from the Ottawa Police Service -- oh, no, I apologize. Maybe it was the Commission counsel asking about racist flags that were being carried around during the protest. And I believe you were implying in your testimony that you didn’t think those were real convoy protestors, that they were others who might have been infiltrating? Is that ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That’s -- but you don’t have any evidence of that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Confederate flags can be viewed as a racist flag. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And so -- and you didn’t think that there was anyone involved in the convoy who brought Confederate flags to the protest. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. All the convoy people left their Confederate flags at home like Mr. Barber.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
All right. Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No questions, thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good day, Mr. Di Tommaso. My name is Paul Champ; I’m the lawyer for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just want to start by asking some questions about civilian direction of police. Now, I gather it’s fair to say that you’re very familiar with the Police Services Act.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And getting into -- you’ve told us a number of times that you thought the entity that was most responsible for managing or dealing with the Chief of Ottawa Police would have been the Police Services Board, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we’d also heard evidence, and I believe you’ve given us evidence as well, that part of the challenge, or one of the problems in the Ottawa Police Response to the protest was the absence of an operational plan; that that was a barrier to deployment of additional resources, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. And Comm. Carrique testified the same thing, that that was -- that they weren’t sending all the resources that Chief Sloly was asking for or demanding because they didn’t feel that he had a full operational plan to dismantle.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so if -- you had that information, and you reported that up to the Solicitor General; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That there were concerns; there were a number of concerns being raised by other Chiefs of Police, that there wasn’t a proper operational plan, and the Chief of Police of Ottawa wasn’t doing a great job?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, the Chair of the Ottawa Police Services Board, Ms. Deans, testified that this information, that there was not a proper plan and that this was leading to a delay in the deployment of resources, was never communicated to her or the Board. Would you agree that it would have been important to have that information conveyed to the Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Who should have communicated that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, no. But the issue here as I understand it, Mr. Di Tommaso, is that Chief Sloly wasn’t doing a good job; that he didn’t have a proper operational plan in place. And based on all the evidence we understand he will say or has been -- he did testify he thought they did have a plan, but everyone else thought that he didn’t. So if there’s a concern about the performance of the Police Chief, he’s not going to say that to the Board. Whose responsibility would it be to communicate that to the Police Services Board so they can take the effective action under section 9 of the Police Services Act?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’m glad to hear you were following the testimony, sir, because if you were following the testimony what was going on was that the Chair of the Board -- and the Board was trying to find out information. The Chair of the Board testified that she even spoke with Deputy Chief Bell to say, “Is there any problems here that I need to know about? Would you be doing anything differently?” And Deputy Chief Bell, you know, perhaps because he’s reporting to Chief Sloly, says, “No, I wouldn’t have been doing anything differently.” That was his testimony.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I don’t think I am. I’m not sure if I understand the objection.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
No, that’s contrary to the evidence. The evidence was that it was one week before his resignation. I’d asked for extra time for that, that’s inaccurate. Both Ms. Deans and Deputy Chief Bell testified it was one week before the resignation. In any event, sir, we’d also heard evidence from the Mayor of Ottawa that he was hearing this from the Solicitor General Jones. Presumably you briefed the Solicitor General and she was saying this to the Mayor, that there were concerns that the Chief of Ottawa didn’t have a good plan. And because of whatever municipal politics, interpersonal conflicts, the Mayor did not communicate that to the Chair of the Police Services Board. So I’d ask you again, sir, is there any other meaningful way to try to get that information to a Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I don't have the transcripts in front of me, so I'll move on. You would agree with me the Police Services Board acts independently from the Solicitor General; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And interference or direction from the Solicitor General to a Police Services Board would generally be inappropriate? The Solicitor General would have to go through the Ontario Civilian Police Commission if they had concerns about the Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
From time -- just for time, I'm going to leave that issue. I want to ask you some questions, sir, about what the convoy protesters in Ottawa were protesting about. Now you've testified that you understood that they were testifying [sic] just about the mandates for truckers having vaccined [sic] across the border. That's what it was all about anyways, to your understanding; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, it was my understanding from your testimony earlier today that it -- I think you said something, "I didn't know the protests involved provincial mandates."
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
There was many other agendas, but let's stick to the ones that have to do with COVID-19 and public health measures related to COVID-19. Now does the federal government have responsibility over mask mandates in shops and stores and restaurants and cities?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's right. Those are provincial mandates. Our masks ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- the masks in stores, that was the province. Now we've heard from a few convoy organizers who were very upset about mask mandates that they planned and organized protests in Ottawa once they arrived here by sending large numbers of unmasked people into stores. Now that wouldn't have to do with a federal government mandate; would it, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I presume, are you familiar with the Rideau Centre in Ottawa, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So it's the largest mall in Ottawa. It has, we've heard evidence, approximately $3 million a day in sales and revenues. And it was shut down on the first day of the protest because large numbers of the convoy protesters were going in there unmasked, and there was unfortunate interactions with staff and so forth. Were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So but is it fair to say that you're hearing a bit more now and you're learning a little bit more now that individuals protesting in Ottawa were protesting about more than just the trucker mandates. They were protesting about provincial government mandates as well; is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And is it also fair to say, however, that during the time of the protest in February, your understanding was a little bit more limited. You thought the protests in Ottawa were all about the federal government mandates.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But not provincial government mandates. That wasn't what your understanding was at the time.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Very early in the protest, one very well-known Ottawa resident was trying to inform the protesters that they were protesting their own thing that, "these mandates are provincial, not federal. The mandates, if you're mad about wearing a mask or getting a vaccine, go talk to Premier -- go talk to Doug Ford. The Prime Minister has nothing to do with that. Don't you know anything about civics?" Would you agree that if the protesters were angry about mask mandates, they should have been protesting in Queen's Park?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now I want to ask you some questions about what you understood about the situation on the ground in Ottawa. You've told us that you understood that the protests in Ottawa were an inconvenience to the people of Ottawa, but it was not a public safety risk; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That it was just an inconvenience?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I think you're talking about your meeting with him ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Or a call ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, sir, you were aware that Ottawa was having difficulty enforcing bylaws because when bylaw officers went out to try to give tickets, they would be sworn by hundreds of protesters; were you aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's a public safety issues; is it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You were also aware, I gather, sir, that -- Commission Counsel's already asked you a bit about this, about fireworks going off, but did you understand that fireworks were binging off residential buildings downtown?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, around where we had propane tanks and jerry cans.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
That's a serious public safety risk; would you agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now we've also heard that by the Monday, January 31st, right after the first weekend, the position of the Ottawa Police was that this was an occupation, and they did not have the capacity or resources to bring that protest to an end. Would you understand that, that it was that early that the Ottawa Police felt they didn't have full control of the situation, all they could do was maintain the peace at best?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. That was their position, but you didn't agree that was the case?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. But they -- I take your point earlier, sir, and I fully agree that we're all very fortunate that there was no serious incidents, no blood shed and the police -- all police who were responding deserve a great deal of credit for that. But you would agree with me that in that first week or two weeks, when the Ottawa Police did not simply have the numbers there, if that situation for some reason had become -- had led to violence or there'd been riots or something like that, the Ottawa Police simply did not have the Public Order Units to control that situation if that had occurred; would you agree with me?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Well, let's get into that. Now the Mayor of Ottawa put out a Declaration of State of Emergency on February 6th. You recall that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And but you didn't review it at the time. My understanding is you just reviewed it in preparation for this inquiry; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You didn't -- because you didn't view the situation as that serious at the time; is that fair to say?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, sir, is that perhaps why you didn't review the Declaration of Emergency is at the time you thought Ottawa officials were exaggerating the problem that they had?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now we know on February the 6th, the Solicitor General put out a statement about Ottawa saying that we're done everything we can. We've given 1500 OPP officers. You're aware of that; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, we've seen the chart, and we know how that number was arrived at, but that's not what the Solicitor General put out. On the day, she put out, "We've provided them with 1500 officers." Correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You did not agree with that number being put out there; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner Carrique also testified he didn't think it was a good idea for that number to be put out there.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
He communicated that to you I gather?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You and he both thought it was a bad idea for operational members of officers to be communicated publicly?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did -- but neither you nor Commissioner Carrique were consulted on that information being made public? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you tell that to the Solicitor General afterwards?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So again ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Because you’re emphasising to us about from the very beginning, but Chief Sloly, and quite frankly the people of Ottawa, were misinterpreting that that it was being suggested there was 1,500 officers on the ground?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Getting back to my previous question, so have you communicated that -- you never communicated to the Solicitor General that you thought it was a bad idea and perhaps operationally to communicate that kind of information?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I guess she’s learning about your views on that issue now from your testimony?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And if it wasn’t for operational reasons that number was made public, is it fair to say that that number was made public by the Solicitor General for political considerations?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
A tit for tat for the Mayor putting out a Declaration of Emergency?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Let’s take a look at those letters. Now, you know about the letter on February 7th of the Mayor and the Chair of the Police Services Board asking the Province for 1,800 OPP officers; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes. And incidentally, in that letter, they say that: “The protest is against public health policies that democratically elected governments at the provincial and the federal levels have enacted to protect us from the deadly COVID-19 pandemic.” (As read) So the Mayor -- in case some of you in Toronto weren’t aware, the Mayor and the Chair were trying to flag to Toronto that these protests were about provincial mandates as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Did you review that letter when it came in?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And in that letter on February the 7th, the Mayor and the Chair were saying that the protest was threatening the safety of the Ottawa community; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And they said: “People are living in fear and are terrified, and they’ve now been subjected to the non-stop honking of large trucks for nine days, which is tantamount to psychological warfare.” (As read)
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Were you aware that that’s how serious it was at the time, the honking of the horns?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And they say: “We need a dramatic and immediate injection of additional officers.” (As read) And then they get into: “The following resources are required on an urgent basis.” (As read) So that was sent on the 7th. I gather the Solicitor General would have consulted you on that letter?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I’ll get into that issue in a moment, but I’m just wanting to understand first about whether you were consulted by the Solicitor General on that issue in the letter?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. And she wrote to the Mayor and the Chair about that on February the 10th, three days later. Do you know why there was such a delay?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And there’s nothing in the letter about, you know, the honking or the risk to safety of Ottawa residents, just saying: “Please note that I have shared your correspondence with Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Thomas Carrique. Thank you again for taking the time to write.” (As read) Why did it take the Solicitor General three days just to say she’s passed on the letter to the Commissioner? Do you know?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So okay. Let’s turn to that then. Now, you’ve told us that in your view, it’s the exclusive jurisdiction of the OPP Commissioner on how to deploy resources? Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
With all due respect, Commissioner, I don’t think so. I think I have 20 minutes? Unless I’m mistaken?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
May I request five more minutes given that we don’t have the Premier or the Solicitor General here to answer questions?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Commissioner, I just note that was -- anyways.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I just note that was right on the dot, perhaps, of 20 minutes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. Now, sir, you’ve said it was exclusive jurisdiction. You’re familiar with the Morden Report; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, in the Morden Report, it tells us that policing and operational decisions about the what of how they, you know, -- or pardon me, the how they execute an operation is responsibility of the police, but the what of the operation is the responsibility of civilian oversight; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so would you agree with me - - or wouldn’t you agree with me that the decision about whether to deploy resources as a priority to Windsor versus Ottawa, that’s a higher-level type of what decision? Would you not agree?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So, sir, in the Morden Report, one of the examples that they use is that if there’s a major event and in the planning for it, the Civilian Police Services Board, which in this case I gather would be the equivalent to the Solicitor General, could direct a police service, for example the Toronto Police Service, to prioritize certain policing and ask for other resources for other issues? So they could direct the police about how they prioritize their resources. Isn’t that the same sort of thing? What’s the difference between the how versus the what in this context?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
You’ve told us that Commissioner Carrique communicated his decision to you based on his view of the economic impact. Is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. I didn’t hear you say about the other factors. And we’ll get -- I’ll leave that, because I don’t have time. But do you know how the Minister assessed the economic impact?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So you’re assuming that the Commissioner would have drawn that from the media?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
We’ve heard evidence in this Commission about the economic impact of Ottawa, that it was approximately $200 million at least for just the first couple of weeks. Do you have a sense of what the economic impact was of the Ambassador Bridge being closed?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I’ll just close, sir, with this. You’re telling us then that it’s solely up to the Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police to prioritize the economic impact at the Ambassador Bridge versus the public safety of the residents of downtown Ottawa? Is that what you’re telling us?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well that’s what you just said.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. So he’s the one that makes the decision whether he protects the bridge or protects downtown residents in Ottawa.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. For the record, Paul Champ, counsel for the Ottawa Coalition and Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you for coming today, panel. I just want to ask a question, I guess Ms. Tessier, perhaps. There's a statement in one of the documents when you've testified that the protest, the convoy protest at no time posed a threat to Canada's national security. But at the same time, isn't it true CSIS advised Cabinet that invoking the Emergencies Act itself could further inflame extreme anti-government rhetoric? Is that not the case?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
My apologies. Maybe it was Mr. Vigneault, the Director. That was the advice you provided to Cabinet, was it not, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. And by security of Canada, we're talking about 2(c) violence associated with ideologically motivated objectives; right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Vigneault, if there was a concern that -- and it was also your advice that invoking the Emergencies Act could further inflame that kind of rhetoric; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So there was a concern. That's what I was kind of getting at, is if the situation or some of the rhetoric was so volatile and extreme that invoking the Emergencies Act could lead to some kind of violent reaction, was that not a concern?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And -- so here's a question for Ms. Tessier. I want to understand, there were some subjects of investigation present at the convoy protests; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So just so we're clear, these were individuals for which CSIS had obtained targeting authority?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had obtained or CSIS had obtained those targeting authorities prior to the protests. So there were individuals who were of concern prior to the Freedom Convoy protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so that means that CSIS had reasonable grounds to suspect that these individuals could engage in threat related activity?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we also know that there were many violent threats against public officials in Ottawa. You -- CSIS was aware of that?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Not only federal officials but also municipal officials?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. The Mayor testified that there was an individual coming from New Brunswick who was arrested who had apparently firearms in his truck. We also heard evidence from a City Councillor, Mathieu Fleury, who had to leave with his family from his home because people were coming to his house. Was CSIS following those kinds of threats against municipal officials?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Ms. Tessier, just to be clear, like if someone's making a threat against a public government official, whether it's federal or municipal or provincial, isn't that inherently falling under 2(c)? If someone's threatening a public official because they want some type of different political decision, a policy choice, isn't that inherently falling under 2(c)?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But Mr. Vigneault, let’s just be clear that if someone’s making a threat against a public official because they’re trying to influence that public official, that inherently falls under 2(c), does it not? Now, it may be that you don’t view the threat as credible, but if it was a credible threat, it would inherently fall under 2(c), would it not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Sir, please, I’d like to give you lots of -- normally I’d like to give witnesses full time to answer, but I only have a limited time. I’m just trying to get an answer because I believe I’ve asked it a few times here. If someone is threatening a public official because they want to influence that public official to take some policy choice, does that not inherently fall under 2(c); yes or no?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So if someone’s threatening to kill a Mayor or a Premier because they want them to drop a public health measure, that does not necessarily fall under 2(c). Is that your testimony, sir?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And so did ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yes, sir, I understand that. And we’re needing a lot of time just to get an easy answer to what I thought was an easy question. I thought your response was going to be, with all due respect, that yes, a threat to a public official to influence that public official would fall into 2(c), but in most cases we have not used these threats as credible or valid because, you know, it’s just online. I think in one of the CSIS documents I saw “shit posting” or something like that. But if you viewed a threat to a public official as credible, would it not fall under 2(c)?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Could I have an answer, please?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay, well, fine. I’ll move on. Thank you. So now, did CSIS look into any of those threats in the context of the convoy protest, any nexus to the convoy protest?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But -- so did -- so you did look at those threats. And did any of those threats to public officials emanate from anyone with a nexus with the convoy protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So is your answer to me, then, that you may or may not have investigated those threats to public officials with individuals -- with threats emanating from individuals with a nexus to the convoy protests but you can’t tell us because of section 38?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So I’m done with my time, sir, but I just want to make sure I understand. I apologize. I’ve heard your answer a couple times and perhaps I’m missing, is that yes, CSIS did look into those individuals or you cannot tell us?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
So that’s yes.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Commissioner. I’ll try to be as efficient as my friend, Ms. Tomkins.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Minister, my name is Paul Champ; I’m one of the lawyers for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. As the Toronto Police Chief for 10 years, Minister, I gather you had become very familiar with the Police Services Act?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
In Ontario? And you know that under the Police Services Act, the Mayor of a city is by default a member of the Police Services Board, unless he or she delegates it?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And in your last, I think the last Mayor you had, when you were Chief is Mayor Tory; he sat on the Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah. You were near the end of your ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
One foot out the door.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right. Mayor Ford didn’t choose to; we won’t go into that.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, you convened tripartite meetings on February 7th, 8th, and 10th with -- intended to be the municipal, provincial, and federal levels of government, is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you had, from Ottawa, City Manager Steve Kanellakos and Mayor Jim Watson; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And when you dealt with Mayor Watson, you would have assumed he was Chair of the Police Services Board; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Did you know if he was the chief -- or if he was on the board or not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right, but given your familiarity with the Police Services Act, would you not have wanted to deal with someone from the Police Services Board who actually has some operational guidance and responsibility over the Ottawa Police?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Right.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But I gather then, though, if you were sharing information with the mayor and the city manager that was relevant for the Police Services Board, you would have assumed the mayor and the city manager would have shared that information with the Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But to do what, sir? It’s about managing the police services.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Now, we know from your testimony, and from your witness statement as well, that it appears that there was indeed a lack -- a delay in resources -- RCMP resources being provided to the City of Ottawa, in part, because there wasn’t a firm plan in place for the deployment of those resources; correct?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
But you -- on your witness statement, anyways, sir, which I understand you’ve adopted, you said one the main reasons was that there was not a firm operational plan in place.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And you would have agreed, sir, that it would have been important for that information to be shared by someone in some way with the Ottawa Police Services Board?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Well, I’m ready for my friend this time, if I may, Commissioner. The testimony of Ms. Deans was that that was her speculation but she was never told that by anyone. No one shared that information. She was concerned that she wasn’t getting detail on the plan and she was wondering why there was a delay, but no one shared that information. That’s what’s in her statement and that’s what her testimony was when she testified.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I’ll be sending a letter to my friend after this. But I just want to close with this, Minister. You would agree with me that it would be inappropriate for a federal government official to be trying to influence the Police Services Board on the selection of a chief of police or to delay a decision of appointing a chief of police for municipal service?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay, thank you very much, Minister.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Good morning, Minister. My name is Paul Champ and I'm Counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Hi. I just have some questions for you today. We're going to cover just two issues in the time that I have. Parliamentary staff are -- many of them are residents of downtown Ottawa; are they not?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And obviously, their workplace was also right in the middle of this occupation as well?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you hearing from Parliamentary staff who were sometimes concerned about coming to work in the circumstances?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And/or were experiencing other personal impacts due to the convoy occupation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I wonder if I could ask the Registrar to pull up a document, PB.CAN.0001850? And while he's pulling that up, Minister, I just want to confirm, Mike Jones, he's your Chief of Staff; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I gather that Mr. Jones, he was advising you of information that he received from many sources?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. So what I've pulled up here is a text messages between Mr. Jones and an Ottawa City Councillor, Matt Luloff. In blue is Mr. Jones and in grey is Mr. Luloff. I was wondering if we could just scroll to page 2? Perfect. And here you'll see in blue Mr. Jones writes, "So maybe not for a public avail but heard about an incident that's pretty angering." (As read) And Mr. Luloff says, "The small woman moved from blocking traffic." (As read) And then Mr. Jones writes, "From one of my staff, I won't be coming into the office while convoy is there, however. My friend was directly threatened of rape yesterday because she was wearing her mask, and that is super triggering for me as a survivor of sexual assault. I know Yasir, sharing how residents feel..." (As read) I gather that's probably Mr. Naqvi, the MP for downtown Ottawa. "...but I would be remiss if I didn't share that I don't even feel safe dropping my son off at daycare downtown and kids have not been outside because of fear the educators will be yelled at for wearing a mask. Understood." (As read) Were you hearing those kinds of stories, Minister?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
It was. If you just scroll to the next page, Mr. Clerk? So you'll see understood, and then Mr. Jones says, "When she reported to police, they told her "Well, maybe take your mask out when you're walking outside so reduce any intention to you."" (As read) And Mr. Luloff says, "The City Councillor of Ottawa says, yes, I've heard of these incidents too." (As read) So the -- were you hearing about that as well that Ottawa Police sometimes weren't following up on complaints from Ottawa residents?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Yeah, and indeed, Minister, I'm not -- we've heard a lot of witnesses in this proceeding, including many Ottawa police witnesses, and the thrust of the evidence as I heard it is it was just simply capacity. They were just so overwhelmed ---
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
--- they didn't have an opportunity. Okay. Thank you. The -- just the second issue I wanted to speak to you about -- thank you for that -- is, of course, as Minister of Public Safety, the RCMP and CSIS both report to you; is that right?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And, Minister, you were receiving a range of information about the risks and threats from those agencies that were being posed by the Ottawa occupation?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And we understand, we've heard other evidence that there were former military and law enforcement members who were participating in and assisting the convoy, you were hearing that information?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And I gather that was a concern for public safety because those types of individuals would have certain skills and expertise that could, you know, present some logistical or greater threats?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And now -- and you also heard information that former CSIS officers were participating in the protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And were you also hearing information that current members of law enforcement or military might be participating in the protests?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And do you know, are you aware, Minister, are there any investigations of those issues internally within RCMP or any other agencies?
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Okay. Thank you very much, Minister. Those are my questions.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
I know I've still got some time. Maybe I'll try to roll it over to the next one.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. Paul Champ for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. I’m just going to try to focus, if I can, Commissioner, on the key points of evidence that I think are questions that you’re going to have to try to determine in all the testimony and exhibits you’ve received over the last several weeks. First of all, what we know is that the Ottawa Police made a major mistake by allowing hundreds of semi trucks to drive and park in downtown on the first weekend. The OPP disavowed supporting this idea and said that they thought the plan was to stop the trucks, but the reality is, they also assisted in guiding the trucks downtown. So what happened there? Also, the Ottawa Police made a mistake in believing that they were only going to stay for a weekend, despite all the other intelligence available. You heard a lot of evidence about, you know, how and why that decision was made or that calculation was made when there is a great deal of intelligence that suggested otherwise. But most significantly, Commissioner, by Monday, January 31st, the Ottawa Police already realized on that day that they had made these major mistakes, and they acknowledged internally that they were overwhelmed and did not have the capacity or the resources to police or manage these protests. They knew that. They were already calling it an occupation on Monday, January 31st. And from that day forward, they were trying to get help from other levels of government and from other police services. Now, what was going on after that? Well, we know that the Ottawa Police refrained from enforcement in most cases because of officer safety, including bylaw officer safety. And if the officers aren’t safe, how can citizens and residents feel safe? They cannot and they were not. Reports to police were not being followed up on, despite people calling repeatedly. You of course heard the circumstances, the context of downtown Ottawa. Not only the dangerously loud horns that were going on all day and into the night, the blockaded streets that were obstructing traffic, public transit, even emergency vehicles, the diesel fumes of hundreds of congregated and continuously idling semi trucks, the street harassment, the threats to public officials at all levels, our Mayor, our Chief, our Health Officer, our federal politicians. Businesses were shut down with loss of profits and wages of $10 million per day. There were open fires in our streets on almost every corner in this downtown stamp, with gasoline, and propane, and fireworks going off beside them. On some days, our 9-1-1 lines were being jammed deliberately. And our hospitals were getting bomb threats. The situation was one of lawlessness in Ottawa. And that situation prevailed for a long time. The people, and residents, and businesses of Ottawa felt abandoned. Using the words of the Police Services Act, the Ottawa Police could not provide adequate and effective policing out of the gate. They were just barely maintaining a baseline level of policing. And once it reached that point, and it really was very early, what happened? How did different levels of government respond? First and foremost, resources were delayed. The RCMP and the OPP were on the ground in small numbers early, but they withheld larger numbers because they were dissatisfied with the OPS plan. So you’ll hear a lot of evidence about why those delays were happening and what happened. You’ll have to, I think, make some decisions about that, or factual findings. And what did others know about that disfunction? Other levels of government. And what did they do about it? Whether it’s city officials, provincial, federal. And who was the responsible authorities who could do something about that situation? Was it the OPP? Was it the Ottawa Police Services Board? Was it Provincial Solicitor General? And then the other piece of evidence that we heard is -- that caused the delays is once the Windsor Blockade happened, it was clear then that Ottawa dropped in priority because the OPP simply did not have the resources to deal with both of those major events at once. Windsor was the priority, and until that situation was addressed, Ottawa would be left to wait. The final piece in evidence, questions that you’re asked to determine or decide is how is it possible for the convoy organizers to bring together? How did they organize and come to our city and occupy it? Because they did. I mean, the definition of an occupation is when an evading force enters into an area and takes control over that area, which is what they did in downtown Ottawa. It was organic, I think we heard. We heard there were people attracted for a variety of different reasons, but some of the leaders who we heard testified I think were animated by a variety of different issues of misinformation. They -- some of them absolutely took some pleasure in what was happening to the people of Ottawa. It was funny that people were unable to sleep. We heard evidence like that. And also that they felt justified in inflicting that harm on the people in downtown Ottawa because they had suffered. And I think we’ve heard that in -- there’s no question that the people, the convoy protestors, they had all been experiencing all kinds of hardships and stresses for two years. So that’s the last issue I think you’re going to have to decide, Commissioner. Just to conclude, you know, these convoy protests stretched our Constitution in every way. Our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and our cherished right to protest, was it stretched too far? I think clearly it was. But, you know, the fact that our authorities showed so much tolerance for so long, and the residents, I think speaks a lot about our country. But our Constitution -- also federalism was stretched right out of shape. I think we -- you know, you’re going to grapple with the evidence and the different levels of government, how they interact, and why it wasn’t more seamless, which is what we would have hoped. So just to conclude, Commissioner, thank you very much. You know, I think this Inquiry has demonstrated, really, the strength of our democracy, not only the fact that that this Inquiry is happening, but the way it was conducted. It was unprecedented, I think, in terms of the transparency we’ve seen at all levels of government. And no doubt, you know, what happened, whatever you find, I know that people are going to debate it anyway. And they’ve had the opportunity to do so; right? They’ve seen it.
-
Paul Champ, Counsel (Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses)
And no doubt study it for years to come about how government and police operate. It was quite amazing. And I have to say also, the fact that the convoy organizers and the protestors, they applied for leave to participate, and they have participated, I would believe, in good faith, and I think it shows that they had enough trust in our public institutions to do that still says a lot about the strength of Canada. So with that, Commissioner, I just want to thank you for the prodigious hard work that you’ve demonstrated, and your Commission team. It was, I think, an inspiration for all counsel here. And chapeau. Merci.