Paul Rouleau
Paul Rouleau spoke 2683 times across 36 days of testimony.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour. Good morning. Welcome. Bienvenue. Today marks the opening of the public hearings of the Public Order Commission -- Public Order Emergency Commission. My name is Paul Rouleau, and I'm the Commissioner appointed to conduct this Inquiry. Aujourd'hui marque l’ouverture des audiences publiques de la Commission sur l’état d’urgence. Et je m’appelle Paul Rouleau et je suis le commissaire nommé pour mener ces enquêtes… cette enquête. Nous sommes réunis aujourd'hui sur le territoire traditionnel du peuple algonquin anichinabé dans l’immeuble abritant Bibliothèque et Archives Canada à quelques pas de l’endroit où ont eu lieu bon nombre des évènements sur lesquels porte l’enquête. Je voudrais souhaiter bienvenue à tous ceux et celles qui sont ici avec nous ainsi que ceux et celles qui regardent les débats en ligne — parce que je comprends que c'est diffusé au moment —, ainsi que ceux qui vont suivre à travers les médias. I would like to welcome everyone who's here with us in person, as well as those who are watching online, and those who will be following through media. I'm joined today by several members of the Commission Staff, including Hélène Laurendeau, the Commission's Executive Director, as well as Shantona Chaudhury, and Jeff Leon, the Commission's co-lead counsels. They and their teams have been working incredibly hard for months in preparation to start these hearings today, and I want to thank them for their excellent work. Je tiens spécialement à remercier le personnel des Services publics et Approvisionnement Canada, le Brookfield Solutions Globales Intégrées et Bibliothèque et Archives Canada pour leur collaboration à la préparation et à l’aménagement des locaux qui ont été mis à la disposition de la Commission. In these opening remarks, I want to address the following: The role of public inquiries; the mandates of this Commission; the challenges facing the Commission; how the Commission has carried out its work to date; what to expect from these hearings; the participants of the Inquiry; the importance of openness and transparency, and finally, the policy phase of the Commission. Le rôle des commissions d’enquête. Pour bon nombre de personnes, il s’agira de la première commission d’enquête à laquelle elles participeront et à laquelle elles assisteront et suivront. Par conséquent, je voudrais dire quelques mots au sujet des commissions d’enquête et de leur nature. Une commission d’enquête est indépendamment nommée par le gouvernement et chargée d’enquêter sur des questions d’importance publique. Les commissions sont dirigées par un ou plusieurs commissaires qui ont la responsabilité générale des travaux de la commission et l’obligation ultime de faire rapport sur l’objet de l’enquête. Les commissaires sont assistés par des avocats, du personnel de soutien, administratifs et techniques et sont souvent accompagnés d’experts, de chercheurs, d’enquêteurs et d’autres spécialistes. Les commissions d’enquête sous souvent appelées « enquêtes publiques » du fait qu’elles cherchent à être transparentes et ouvertes. Les audiences sont normalement tenues en public et toute personne a le droit d’y assister, comme on le voit aujourd'hui. Commissions of Inquiry perform two important functions. They make findings of fact, and they make recommendations for the future. The fact-finding role of Commissions of Inquiry serves an important social purpose. To borrow the words of Peter Cory, who was then a judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, and I quote: "One of the primary functions of public inquiries is fact-finding. They are often convened, in the wake of public shock, horror, disillusionment, or scepticism, in order to uncover 'the truth'." End of quote. Uncovering the truth is an important goal. When difficult events occur that impact the life -- lives of Canadians, the public has a right to know what has happened. But inquiries are also forward-looking. They seek not only to understand what has occurred in the past, but also to learn from those experiences and to make recommendations for the future. A Commission's recommendations may be modest or wide-ranging; they may be directed at a range of audiences, including government, public bodies, and the private sector. It's also important to understand what Commissions of Inquiry do not do. They do not make findings of legal liability. They do not determine whether individuals have committed crimes. While inquiries seek to uncover the truth, they are not trials. Questions of civil and criminal liability are decided by courts, and not commissions. I'll turn now to the mandate of the Commission. Like other Commissions of Inquiry, the Public Order Emergency Commission has been given the mandate to seek out the truth about an important event. However, unlike other Commissions of Inquiry, we have two mandates, one given to us by Parliament, and one given to us by Cabinet. Le mandat confié à la Commission par le Parlement se trouve à même la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence. Lorsque le Parlement a adopté cette loi en 1988, il a choisi d’y inclure une règle importante. Si le gouvernement déclare l’état d’urgence, il doit également créer une enquête pour enquêter – et je cite – « sur les circonstances qui ont donné lieu à la déclaration et les mesures prises pour faire face à la crise » – fin de citation. The mandate from Parliament, therefore, is one of public accountability, the public's legitimate right to know why the Government proclaimed an emergency, and whether the actions it took were appropriate. When Cabinet took the step of establishing this Commission, as it was required to do, it set out an additional mandate: Our Order in Council directs the Commission to examine, first, the evolution and goals of the convoy movement and border protest, and their leadership organization and participants. Second, the impact of domestic and foreign funding, including crowdsourcing platforms. Third, the impact, role, and sources of misinformation and disinformation, including social media. Fourth, the economic and other impacts of blockades; and, finally, the efforts of police and other responders prior to and after the declaration. There is, however, an important caveat to this mandate from Cabinet; the Commission is asked to examine these issues, and I quote: “To the extent relevant to the circumstances of the declaration and measures taken.” (As read) In other words, although these topics have been identified as worthy of attention, it is the mandate that has been given to us by Parliament that drives the Commission’s work. While this Inquiry will deal with a wide range of issues, its focus will remain squarely on the decision of the Federal Government: Why did it declare an emergency; how did it use its powers; and were those actions appropriate? This Commission exists to promote transparency, accountability, and public confidence. I hope that this Inquiry, and the transparency we strive to provide, will bolster the public’s trust in our systems of accountability. Now the challenges facing the Commission. Discharging my mandate is not an easy task. The Commission has faced many challenges in reaching this point, and will face further challenges as the Inquiry proceeds. The biggest challenge has been time. This Commission of Inquiry is unique, to the best of my knowledge, or our knowledge, is in that its deadline is set by statute. Other inquiries have worked under deadlines set by Cabinet. That sort of deadline is set based on an assessment of the time needed, and can, and frequently is, extended as circumstances require. This is not a possibility for our Commission, in the absence of a change in the Emergency Act itself. Our deadline is established by statute, as I’ve said. It is a short one, and it allows, by statute, for no extensions. Just how tight are the timelines? Let me try and put it in context for you. The Air India Inquiry was established on May 1st, 2006. It took just over four years to issue its report on June 17th, 2010. The Commission on the Decline of Sockeye Salmon was established on November 5th, 2009 and its report was made three years later on October 31st, 2012. The Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls was established in September 2016 and issued its report almost three years later on June 3rd, 2019. This Commission, on the other hand, was established in April and must table its report in Parliament on February 23rd -- 20th, rather; trying to give myself three days, February 20th, 2023. So it has only 300 days; so it’s measured in days, not years, to complete its work. Ces contraintes de temps extraordinaires ne sont pas le seul défi auquel la Commission est confrontée. L’accès aux documents pertinents a également été difficile. Le gouvernement fédéral a déployé des efforts considérables pour fournir à la Commission des documents provenant d’une douzaine de ministères et d’organismes. Pourtant, le processus a été complexe; les documents ont continué d’être fournis à la Commission jusqu’en octobre, jusqu’à aujourd'hui — on en a eu plus récemment, je pense, en fin de semaine. Bon nombre de ces documents remis à la Commission sont classifiés sous réserve de la sécurité nationale ou d’autres revendications de privilèges. La Commission a dû déployer des efforts considérables pour déterminer comment ces documents pouvaient être traités, utilisés et partagés. Elle a pu développer un processus qui assure que le public aura accès aux renseignements pertinents au travail de la Commission. En plus de ceux du gouvernement fédéral, la Commission a reçu plus de 50 000 documents de gouvernements provinciaux, des services de police, des municipalités, d’organisations non gouvernementales, de groupes industriels, d’individus et d’entités privées. Tous les documents reçus ont dû être soigneusement évalués pour en déterminer la pertinence et le privilège et ont dû être analysés par les avocats de la Commission et, le cas échéant, communiqués aux parties afin qu’elles effectuent leur propre examen. The process of getting to this point has been challenging. These public hearings will no doubt present all parties with new challenges. Commission staff and parties alike have had to be flexible, innovative, and creative in their approach to their work. These hearings will need to be conducted in a manner that will allow the Commission to fulfil its mandate within the timelines that it has been given. They also need to be fair and meaningful. Guided by the principles of openness, timeliness, and proportionality, I intend to ensure that they are. Now, how has the Commission carried out its work. I want to give the public a little more detail about the work that the Commission staff have done over the past four months to conduct their investigation and prepare for these hearings. Shortly after being appointed, I set about selecting and retaining a senior staff, and retained the services of Commission counsel. I then, in consultation with counsel, guided the work of the Commission. Several investigative dossiers were identified, and each was headed by a senior Commission counsel. Additional counsel were hired in the weeks and months that followed to assist these investigations. In order to ensure that the various parallel investigations did not exist in siloes, junior counsel were appointed to multiple dossiers, and all the Commission counsel would meet weekly to keep each other apprised of the status of the work and keep the network working together. Now, this requirement to pursue the investigation in a number of parallel streams explains why you’ll see several different Commission counsel leading evidence in the course of the hearings. Now, counsel worked to identify, request, and obtain relevant documents that were in the possession of parties to this Inquiry, as well as non-parties. In the case of the Federal Government, this process involved addressing the government’s assertion of Cabinet confidence, which resulted in the government agreeing to a significant disclosure of information otherwise covered by Cabinet confidence. As I understand it, this is only the fourth time since Confederation that Federal Commission of Inquiry has been granted access to Cabinet confidences. À mesure que les documents ont été obtenus et analysés, les avocats principaux ont commencé à mener des entrevues avec des témoins clés. Ces entretiens ont pris diverses formes allant de brefs appels téléphoniques à des réunions d’une journée avec des groupes de hauts fonctionnaires; des manifestants et des ministres ont aussi été interrogés par la Commission. Reconnaissant que le temps d’audience serait limité, le personnel de la Commission a également demandé et obtenu des rapports institutionnels de diverses entités, y compris des ministères et organismes fédéraux, de gouvernements provinciaux, d’administrations municipales, de services de police et d’entités privées. Ces rapports résument les renseignements dont ces entités disposent et fournissent une description de leur participation aux évènements entourant la déclaration d’état d’urgence. Ils seront, le cas échéant, déposés à l’audience dans le dossier de preuve. To ensure that key questions are addressed during these public hearings, Commission Counsel then allies the information available to them and prepared evidence be presented in a number of different ways. They've prepared summaries of the interviews that they conducted, and to ensure fairness, the interviewees have been given the opportunity to review these summaries and approve them as accurate. The interview summaries have been shared with the parties to ensure that they are aware of the information obtained by the Commission. In some instances, these summaries may be introduced to supplement and facilitate the oral testimony of interviewees. In other circumstances, the summaries may simply be entered into evidence where it may be unnecessary or impractical to hear from the interviewee in person. Commission Counsel have also prepared a series of oversee reports. They summarize large amounts of evidence related to a particular issue. They have also worked to prepare lists of witnesses who will provide live testimony in these hearings. Enfin, les avocats ont examiné la grande quantité de documents reçus fin de déterminer lesquels étaient pertinents pour les questions dont la Commission est saisie. Ils sont en train d’être communiqués aux parties de façon continuelle. Pour ce qui est des documents reçus du gouvernement fédéral, ce processus comprenait l’évaluation des affirmations du gouvernement concernant la sécurité nationale et le privilège de l’intérêt public et un effort visant à rendre le plus de renseignements possibles accessibles au public. Tout au long de ces travaux, le personnel de la Commission a entrepris d’innombrables tâches supplémentaires allant de trouver des locaux pour les audiences de l’enquête à la rédaction de règles de procédure et prendre les démarches nécessaires afin d’assurer que le rapport final puisse être produit à temps. It is important to emphasize that the investigative work that I have just described has been that of Commission Counsel. During these hearings, I will be hearing the bulk of this evidence for the first time, just like members of the public. To that end, I have made no findings and reached no conclusions about the issues that I have been entrusted to deal with. While I'm not sitting as a judge in these hearings, my 20 years of experience as a judge have informed my approach to the inquiry. I intend to take a judicial attitude to my job. By that I mean that independence, impartiality and fairness are my touchstones as Commissioner, just as they are in my role as a judge, which I will take up again after these hearings. Like a judge, my findings and conclusions will be based on the evidence that is presented to me. I will keep an open mind throughout and will only reach a final conclusion once the evidence is all in and final submissions have been made. Now what to expect in the hearings. We have scheduled approximately 30 days of factual hearings. At first glance, that may seem like a great deal of time. In reality, our time is very limited, given the breadth of the issues that have to be covered. This Commission will need to hear from dozens of witnesses and examine thousands of documents. Our timelines are tight and there's little room for error. For these hearings to be successful, I'm relying not only on my Commission Counsel, but on the efforts of all Counsel appearing before me and the parties they represent. This is not a trial. It's an inquiry, and I expect everyone will work cooperatively to ensure that the facts and information necessary for the public to understand what happened and why it happened will be elicited. I appreciate the spirit of cooperation that the parties and their counsel have demonstrated thus far, and I expect it to continue. While this is not an adversarial proceeding, I recognize that different points of view will be forcefully advanced. This is to be expected and will help ensure that a clear picture of the events is presented, and the decisions made or not made by key actors are fully analyzed. It is important, however, that at all times, disagreement be respectful. Parties and the public should also expect me to actively control the proceedings. Deadlines and time limits will be established and enforced. Parties will be required to focus on central issues. Not every witness who might be called will be called. Relevant evidence may be adduced in writing. Objections and procedural wrangling must and will be kept to an absolute minimum. Throughout this process, I will be relying on Commission Counsel to take the lead in presenting the evidence. For members of the public who have not seen a public inquiry before, the role of Commission Counsel may appear a bit unusual. They do not represent a party. They are, in effect, an extension of the Commissioner. They do not advance any particular point of view, but rather, they lead evidence in an impartial and balanced manner. Their only goal in these proceedings is to elicit the evidence necessary to establish the truth, whatever the evidence may be. Now other participants. Commission Counsel are not the only persons who will play a role in these hearings. There are also some 20 parties to whom I've granted permission to participate in these hearings in a variety of ways. This includes the Government of Canada, as well as provincial and municipal governments, police forces, protester representatives, community organizations, non-governmental organizations, parade associations and individuals. Each has their own interest in the issues that will be addressed in this inquiry, and each brings their own important perspective. They too will play an important role in the process. Afin de permettre la participation des personnes et des groupes qui, autrement, ne seraient pas en mesure de prendre part à ces procédures, j’ai fait des recommandations à la greffière du Conseil privé pour qu’elle accorde du financement à certaines parties ayant qualité pour agir. J’ai exposé les raisons pour lesquelles j’ai formulé ces recommandations dans une série de décisions qui sont disponibles sur le site web de la Commission. Bien que je n’aie pas le pouvoir d’accorder une aide financière, la greffière du Conseil privé a accepté mes recommandations. Outre les parties, la Commission a également bénéficié de la participation du public. Dès ma nomination, il m’a semblé évident que j’avais besoin d’obtenir les commentaires des Canadiens et Canadiennes de tous les horizons sur leurs points de vue et leurs expériences relativement à tous les aspects de mon mandat. C'est pour cette raison que la Commission a mis en place une méthode en ligne accessible aux membres du public afin qu’ils nous fassent part de leurs points de vue, observations et idées sur les circonstances qui ont motivé la déclaration de l’état d’urgence et les mesures prises par le gouvernement pour y répondre. We have received a number of submissions from individuals expressing a range of views, opinions, beliefs and ideas, and we look forward to continuing to receive submissions as these hearings unfold. Commission staff will carefully review all submissions and will prepare a report on the public input received and this will be shared with you. To the members of the public who took time and effort to share your insights with the Commission, I thank you. The inquiry has benefited from your contributions, and I will be mindful of the views expressed as I continue my work. Now openness and transparency. The role of a public inquiry under the Emergencies Act is very much about serving the public. Maintaining public confidence in our public institutions, and holding government to account can only be achieved through a process that is committed to openness and transparency. To that end, the Commission has worked hard to make these proceedings as accessible as possible. The hearings themselves are open to the public to come and observe. The media has been invited to broadcast our proceeding, and anyone around the world, in fact, is able to watch or listen to the hearings on the Commission’s website. Transcripts of proceedings will be produced and made available for download. I’ve already said that much of the evidence in this proceeding will be adduced in writing. The Commission also intends to post all documents that are made exhibits to the Commission’s website so that the media and the public will be able to read and understand all of the evidence before me. We expect that thousands of pages of material will ultimately be posted. Enfin, comme il s’agit d’une enquête nationale, nous nous engageons à veiller à ce que nos procédures soient accessibles au public dans les deux langues officielles. Les témoins pourront témoigner en français ou en anglais, et toutes les procédures seront traduites simultanément. Les documents préparés par la Commission ou en son nom sont traduits et publiés dans les deux langues officielles sur le site web de la Commission. Dans la mesure du possible, les versions françaises et anglaises seront diffusées simultanément. There may occasionally be limits on the Commission’s ability to be fully open to the public. Much of the material reviewed by Commission Counsel during their investigation is classified or subject to public interest immunity or national security privilege. As a result, there may be short portions of the hearing where classified evidence will be presented to me, which cannot be opened to the public or the parties. We will strive to keep such hearings to an absolute minimum. The Policy Phase. I’ve already spoken about how this Commission will not only look to the past, but also to the future. The Commission’s mandate includes a direction to make recommendations for potential changes to laws or practices relevant to the matters before this Commission. Pour soutenir ce volet des travaux de la Commission, nous avons mis en place un programme ambitieux de recherche et de politiques au cours des derniers mois. Afin d’aider la Commission, un conseil de recherche composé d’universitaires de partout au Canada a été mis sur pied. Présidé par la professeure Geneviève Cartier, le conseil de recherche a travaillé sans relâche pour commander des documents de recherche, informer le personnel de la Commission sur des questions techniques et façonner l’orientation générale de la Commission en matière de politiques. Much of the Research Council’s work is already available to the public for viewing. A series of 14 research papers on topics relevant to the Commission have been posted in both official languages to the Commission’s website. After the factual phase of the Inquiry is complete, the Commission will be holding a series of policy hearings to further explore the broader issues relevant to the Commission’s mandate. This will include policy roundtables involving experts and stakeholders, who will present their views to the Commission so that I may be better equipped to make recommendations about the future. Now, in conclusion, this Commission is about to begin the process of finding answers to the questions assigned to it by Parliament. What led the Federal Government to declare an emergency? How did it exercise the powers that it obtained? And were its actions appropriate? These are matters of fundamental importance. Ce sont aussi des questions complexes. Pour y répondre, j’aurai besoin d’entendre beaucoup d’éléments de preuve dans un court laps de temps. Ce sera un défi, mais je suis persuadé qu’avec la collaboration de toutes les parties, les audiences offriront un processus impartial et exhaustif pour la présentation des preuves nécessaires afin que la Commission puisse donner au public les réponses auxquelles il a droit. The exercise by government of the exceptional powers given to it by the Emergencies Act affects directly, or indirectly, all Canadians. In the 34 years since its adoption, this is the first time the Act has been used and this is the first opportunity for its review. How and why the powers in the Act were invoked are matters of great public interest. With the cooperation of all parties, I’m confident that the hearings will provide a fair and thorough process for the presentation of evidence required for this Commission to be able to give the public the answers to which it is entitled. With that, I was going to say brief, but let’s say modest introduction, I’d like to turn the matter over to one of my co-lead counsel, Shantona Chaudhury, to set out what the next steps are. Thank you. Merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. So that introduction I think has been very helpful. We have a little time to get started in -- if parties are willing. Today is a little bit lighter than the days that are coming. I can assure you, you're going to have to be prepared to work hard. Alors, peut-être qu’on peut commencer avec la présentation des différentes parties. À moins d’autres suggestions, je vais juste suivre l’ordre que j’ai devant moi. Unless there's any objection and people want to arm-wrestle, I suggest I'll just follow the order on the sheet in front of me and call on the various parties to briefly introduce themselves, three to five minutes, if you wish, so that I and the public will know who is participating in the hearing. So starting with the Government of Canada, if I could ask, I'm not sure if it's Mr. MacKinnon or who will be presenting, but go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, perhaps you can do it over there. It's -- it might be better for the -- getting the visual, if that's okay. And you don't have to face me, you can face the crowd. That's -- like the counsel did.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon. Now, I'm not sure, some parties may not be here in person, and I'm not sure mechanically how we're going to do this, so let me see how it works. Is the Government of Saskatchewan here? And if not, are they going to present by video? There we go.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If the Government of Saskatchewan can go ahead, and I'm not sure if it's Mr. McAdam or Morris?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. So the next I have on my list is the Government of Manitoba. Again, I'm not sure if they're online rather than in person. I suspect they're online. Maybe not. Okay, if -- there may be technical issues, so I’m not sure what the status is.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So it’s -- that was John Mather who was making that. So if Manitoba is online, they can email Mr. Mather. Next is the Government of Alberta. Again, believe they were supposed to be online. Here they are.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I’m not sure if that’s -- who is speaking, but I’m sure you’ll introduce yourself. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Ms. England. So that’s -- those are the provinces who’ve, so far, sought and obtained intervenor or party status. So now I’ll go to the various municipalities, starting with the City of Ottawa. Commençons avec la ville d’Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci, Maitre Tardif. Alors, la prochaine municipalité… the next city is the City of Windsor, who is also a party.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. Merci. Okay. The -- next we are going to turn to police services. And I’d like to start with the Ottawa Police Service, if I could.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could then move to the Windsor Police Service?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next if I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. I’d like to then call on Peter Sloly’s counsel to address the assembly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Then I think next we should hear from the convoy organisers who are also involved in the proceedings of the Commission.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now the residents group, the Coalition of Residents and Businesses of Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Perhaps we're -- I'm about to turn to the various organizations that are also have standing, but before I do so, avant de passer aux différents organismes qui ont participé à cette enquête, je pense qu’on va prendre la pause du matin. Alors, on n’a pas un horaire fixe, c'est à ma discrétion, je suppose, mais en général on va prendre une quinzaine de minutes le matin et une quinzaine de minutes l’après-midi. Aujourd'hui, c'est un peu moins chargé, mais peut-être que c'est un bon moment, it's a good moment to take our morning 15-minute break, and when we come back, I'll turn to the various organizations that have standing. So we'll take 15 minutes, and I thank you all for your attention.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, merci, thank you. On va reprendre avec… on va commencer avec les associations et avec aucun ordre d’importance, vous ne devez tirer aucune conclusion du choix, on va commencer par le CC… le CCLDL, CAD, CLA, une série d’organismes qui sont ici. Monsieur DelBigio?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much. Next I'd like to call on the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on… j’aimerais demander la prochaine association, the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Thank you. I now call on the National Police Federation.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation and Professor Alford. Yes. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well if I could just interrupt, there’s on grant of standing and the norm is with one grant of standing, there is one counsel or presentation. And it’s a bit unusual and I don’t think that should be the practice. The reason they were put together as one was that we streamline the process. I’m prepared to make an exception for today, but that is not -- because I assume you’ve prepared on that basis. But you should not, as a rule, proceed in that manner. If I can ask you to coordinate your presentation, whether it’s Mr. Alford, or you, or Ms. Shanmuganathan. That’s up to you. But I don’t want it to break down into different parties. There are many other organizations that are sharing a standing and they’ve all cooperated to have one presentation. So with that caveat, Mr. Choudhury, you can go ahead on this exceptional basis today.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Mr. Alford.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now I'd like to call on The Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, and JCCF Coalition, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I won't repeat the comments I made earlier. I think you're well aware that from now on it will be one presentation rather than three, and for today I'll make the exception I made in the previous case. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. Now I understand there are three other parties to the proceedings who have, in some cases, more limited involvement and interest in the proceedings, either for mostly the policy end, so -- and they're not present today either in person or by video, as I understand it. They would be the Government of Manitoba, which I referred to earlier, as well as the Canadian Association of the Chiefs of Police and the Insurance Bureau of Canada. So that -- with those three, that makes up the roster, if you like, of parties with standing. I want to just first say I'm grateful to the parties for the assistance that they have given the Commission to date and for what I hope will be continued assistance. Anyone who had the illusion that this would be easy and uncontroversial, I think the presentations have started to lay out some of the differences and issues. It's a challenge, but it's one which the Commission is eager to take on. Ça nous fait certainement plaisir d’avoir toutes ces différentes parties qui ont le statut de présenter devant la Commission et il y a certainement bien des points de vue, mais tous les points de vue sont bienvenus pour essayer de composer avec tous les problèmes, les questions pour en arriver à une solution, et la Commission est vraiment heureuse de relever le défi. So with that brief introduction of the parties, I think we'll now turn to the beginning of what I will call the evidentiary phase, and the first is more through the presentation, as you've heard, as I understand it, of the various reports. So I'll turn it over to Commission Counsel now to take us to the next step.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Sheppard. I wonder is it appropriate at this point to mark that as the first exhibit?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So Madam Registrar, could you enter the overview report as -- I take it it's Exhibit 1?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so that will be marked as Exhibit 1. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I take it this should be the next exhibit, Exhibit 2.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Okay, thank you. Madam Registrar, this will be marked as Exhibit 2.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that will, Madam Registrar, will be Exhibit 3. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now we have two more reports, I believe, and it looks like we're going to be ending early today, something a bit of a bonus, which I don't expect we're going to have very often, but it's -- it was intended to be an overview day, without any witnesses. That will start tomorrow. Alors, c'est fort possible, et je dirais même inévitable, qu’on va compléter un peu plus tôt aujourd'hui. So the next matter then?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Can I just -- just before we hear from Mr. Lacombe, I assume these will be available to the public, and are they -- are we going to put them as exhibits or in another place on the website?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's fine and we'll advise the public how they can access it in due course then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Lacombe?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Alors, il reste une dernière présentation, si j’ai bien compris, et peut-être qu’on peut la rentrer et… avant le diner et puis il n’y aurait pas besoin de revenir après le diner, c'est… est-ce que j’ai bien compris?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ah, bien, ça va nous sauver du temps.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Merci beaucoup. Thank you all. So we've run through quite quickly the introductions and the opening statement, which I didn't belabour too long on, and I think we can start tomorrow, 9:30, with the - - I believe there are a series of panels tomorrow. Should be -- I hope will be covered in -- without extending too late tomorrow. I hope will be another not too severe day. But we'll wait and see. There are -- seeing no other issues being raised, I suggest we rise until tomorrow. Alors, on revient demain à 9 heures et demie pour commencer la preuve comme telle avec des panels qui vont commencer à présenter la preuve, si je comprends bien, sur ce qui s’est passé à Ottawa. Alors, thank you all. Merci à tous.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour. Good morning. Welcome, to Day 2. Bienvenue à la deuxième journée, and our first day of live witnesses. Before I call on the witnesses, there are just a couple of matters I want to raise. The first is the -- what the public and the media know, in particular, with respect to exhibits. I may have mislead people yesterday in calling Exhibits 1, 2, and 3. As the parties know, the documents that become exhibits are put into the database that's available to the public in accordance with their unique document number, not as exhibits. And it's important to know that all the exhibits that go into the database that's available for the public, all the documents are not necessarily referred to in the hearing, in the sense that there are many documents that will become part of the record, either because they were referred to in the overview reports you heard yesterday, so that not only the overview report goes into the record but all of the documentation that supports that. Same thing for other types of reports or affidavits or witness statements, when they go into evidence, we -- what we have arranged, if you like, is that all the backup goes in so that the full record will be composed not only of documents referred to here, but documents referred to in the backup documentation. So a little bit complicated, but it's simply to alert the media and the public that when you go to the website of the Commission, you'll find a lot more documents that back up the statements and the evidence. The parties know this because the parties have been provided these documents, have reviewed them, and they may question witnesses about them, but it's a much more fulsome record. Because of the timelines we have, we couldn't spent days noting documents and putting in all of that evidence. The contentious evidence you will hear at the hearing. Don't worry about that, the parties will ensure that. La deuxième chose que j’aimerais soulever, c'est qu’il n’est pas permis d’enregistrer ou de diffuser de vos téléphones, et cetera, en salle. There is no livestreaming allowed or a recording of the proceedings. It is livestreamed by the Commission, but people should not be doing this from their own phones. So with that brief introduction, there are -- this, according to the schedule, will be a busy day. It -- if it goes according to plan, we will not finish before seven o'clock tonight, so let's get started as soon as possible because we have scheduled a full day. It can be shorter if people shorten their cross-examinations, and we'll -- but obviously the times have been allocated and we'll hold people to it. So Commission Counsel, ready to go. Ms. Rodriguez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the witnesses have been sworn.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just give a moment for the registrar to take back the Bible. Okay, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now for cross- examination, have the parties agreed on an order for the cross- examination? Seeing no response, I will simply call on parties to cross-examine in accordance with the time that has been allocated. So I think the first cross-examination is to be carried out by the convoy organizers, so who's going to be doing this? Okay. So, Mr. Miller, you're on. You have 20 minutes if you need it and given that Commission Counsel has gone a bit over time, I -- we can give you a little bit of leeway, but not very much.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure it's relevant or not, but is it -- it seems to me that it's not unreasonable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s February 4th.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Pardon me, the 7th. February 7th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There'll be a brief opportunity to re-examine ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- at the end so.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the next I will call on the Government of Canada to briefly cross-examine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I will call on the Ottawa Police.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next I'll call on the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. And the next is the Ottawa Coalition. Any examination there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Does Commission counsel have any brief follow up?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I want to thank both witnesses for their coming forward to the Commission and for their evidence. The Commission appreciates you coming forward. I also want to thank counsel for the parties, it was very disciplined cross-examination, a very good start, and so we thank you both and you’re now relieved of your obligations and someone can come forward and assist Mme. De La Ronde to --
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. While the witnesses leave, this may be a good moment to take the break and we’ll come back after the break. We’ll take 15 minutes, and when we come back we’ll proceed with the second panel.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think we’re ready for the next panel. On est prêt pour le prochain panel.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can accommodate that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Again, I’d ask, has there been any agreement on the order of cross- examination? Seeing no indication, I will call on again on -- in terms of the length of time that’s been allocated, starting with the convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to be clear, Brown and Dunn is simply, they put a statement to you that it may be contradicted later. So you should have a chance to comment.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just want to point out you’re out of time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if you want to wrap up or get to a point?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A lot of this, I think, has been a bit repetitious.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now -- okay. Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you can go ahead and ask whether or not that's -- she's made that statement before, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I don't think you can cross-examine on that statement, unfortunately.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was not put into evidence, and we don't know the circumstances in which that was done, et cetera, but I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'll give you some latitude.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wait a minute. I don't think that's ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is not a statement of anticipated evidence. I think that's been made clear.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I think that's going beyond what I allow.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. That's -- the next is the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you referring to the statements during the hearing, sir?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Then that's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the counsel for the Government of Canada.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And finally, the, or next is the Ottawa Coalition.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any brief additional question?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're at the time for lunch. It's -- if we could come back at two o'clock, that would be much appreciated because we have a big afternoon, which will probably take us past six o'clock and maybe even past seven o'clock. So again, I want to thank counsel for respecting the timelines. That's much appreciated, particularly on a day like today where we have a lot of evidence. So we're going to reprise until two o'clock. And thank you to the witnesses. I forgot.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you both.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Much appreciated. Un grand merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Retournez à ma ville natale de Vanier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Merci. Vous remarquerez que j’essaye d’être ponctuel, je ne garantis pas que ça va toujours être le cas, mais c'est une déformation de vingt ans comme juge, alors je m’en excuse à l’avance, mais ça va être la façon qu’on travaille. Okay. So we have, I believe, another panel that’s ready to go, Ms. Rodriguez?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, oui. Oui, oui. Prenez votre temps. Take your time. Get settled down.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I think the witnesses would like a moment so we’re going to take five minutes. I’m going to be a bit of a dictator so they’re going to be short. This is five minutes, not 15, so five-minute break. Merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. We’re going to have to take a break at some point because I think, among other things, the interpreters need some breaks too. I know you all are pretty strong and want to go through and I love the punishment. But I think they need a break. Now, the question is we can start briefly with the Coalition, or break now. I don’t know.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ah, y’a des… y’a des signes ici, alors…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we can take a sort of -- I had thought we’d do it about five o’clock if that’s okay, and you could get started. And unless there’s a different order, I take it. I’m not longer asking whether there’s agreed order, so if there is, let me know. But I'm assuming there isn’t. So is it okay to get started with the Ottawa Coalition and ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’d do your 30 minutes at once. And then it would be at 5:10 the break. Because I think we’re going to go late, so I'm trying to break it at a good spot. Is that okay? Or do you want a break now?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then let’s take a 15 minute break. Let’s try and keep it to 15 minutes, please. Quinze (15) minutes, s’il vous plait. Merci aux interprètes. Thank you to the interpreters.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We’re into the last stretch.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just introduce yourself for the record ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and for the witnesses.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Scroll down ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you -- again, we need ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- people to introduce themselves for the transcription.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, maybe you can just ask if they can confirm their understanding or what they know about this meeting. And then we can go from there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just go up a bit to see what these questions are? I think it’s just -- it’s not clear to me either what this is recording.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What is the -- that’s not a complete identification.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the convoy organizers, if you have any questions.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
By introducing yourself, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And thank you for being brief. Next is Former Chief Sloly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Careful. Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Okay. City of Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A nice Friday night gift. Okay. But you get no credit for that in the balance, just so you know. It’s day by day. So that ends for today. I can thank the two witnesses for your contribution. Merci beaucoup for your assistance. Très apprécié. So that ends for today. Earlier than the 7:00 o’clock I threatened. And I wish everyone a nice weekend. We’ll be reconvening at 9:30 on Monday morning and we look forward to the continuation. We adjourn for the day.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Day three. Looks like a very interesting week. On a des témoins intéressants cette semaine. Alors, je pense que c’est la Commission qui convoque un nouveau témoin. Est-ce que vous êtes prête? D’accord, Madame Rodriguez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good morning, Mr. Kanellakos.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
April 1st.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we went a little bit over, which I regret. And the -- but we’ll take the morning break at the moment, and we can start with the cross-examinations right after the 15-minute break. And I will show a little latitude in cross- examination, given the excess of -- in the direct, which is pursuant to our rule when in-chief, where the evidence presented by the Commission will be matched in terms of cross-examination time. So 15-minute break. We’ll be back at five minutes to 12:00. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome to the second phase of the evidence, which is the questioning by the various parties. So if I could call on the Convoy Organizers to go first? Okay. So there’s some technical issues with the document production? Okay. Okay. Well can the Ottawa Police Service then go ahead?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s over there, they’re scrolling, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you speak just a little louder, please?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Who's up next? Are -- is the convoy organizers, are you still -- okay. Still organizing. The organizers are organizing. Okay. Mr. Sloly -- Former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is either the Organizers or the Ottawa Coalition. Do you want to take another pass? Okay. Okay, well, it's okay. We're all trying to get to the same things here. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. We have just sort of five minutes before lunch. Can I ask for the Democracy Fund maybe to go ahead, since they’re a five-minute examiner, and we’ll then take the lunch break? I’m sure Mr. Kanellakos needs a little time. And we’ve almost an hour of cross left. So go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well we’re a few seconds away from 1:00 o’clock. So what I’d suggest is we’ll take the lunch break. Everybody, I think, needs a little time. So we’ll come back at 2:00 o’clock. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good afternoon, bon après-midi. This is just a reminder that there's no recording allowed in the room. Il n'y a pas d'enregistrement qui est permis. It is all live-streamed, so it's available to everyone, but it's -- I mentioned it last week and I mention it again, and if there's failure to cooperate, I'm afraid we're going to have to exclude people who are not cooperating. So just a reminder, please, no recording of the proceedings in the room. Okay. So with that brief comment, is the Convoy Organizers, are you -- is this a convenient time? Okay. Well, let's see the product.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think that comes pretty close to questioning ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- on it. You're asking him to confirm that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- information. So perhaps we can go at it in a different way, and you can put to him questions about certain facts and does he agree with that and go at it one ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sort of block at a time without reference to the memo, because in the end, he can't confirm what ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Mr. Arpin said or didn't say and he'll be up, if all goes well, pretty soon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just to let you know, I think you're now on borrowed time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm willing to be accommodating, but there you go. You are also. Okay, thank you. So next, if I could call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I could call on the CCLA. And they'll be on the video.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
CCLA is the -- she'll introduce herself.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next if I could call on the Criminal Lawyer's Association?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Now if I could call on the City of Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s fine. I think we - - you’re just showing how the system works. Ultimately it -- I hope people are appreciating how all these documents come up in our control. It’s obviously a lot of work behind the scenes. Much appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Is there any re-examination? Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just reintroduce yourself for the public.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Well, thank you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Steve K, for your contribution and for coming forward.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you're excused.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next witness that's being called?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It just has become -- may have become obvious this segment will be in French, so there are obviously -- no, it's going to be in English. I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm sorry. I was misleading.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, Mr. Arpin, you are, of course, free to testify in either language. If you're going to switch, as an earlier witness did, if you could give us a warning, so that people can put on the translation equipment, because it's -- we're not all bilingual in the room and everyone's entitled to follow the proceedings. And so if you are going to switch, please give us fair warning. Okay. I'm sorry to have interrupted then. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can we have a moment? Can you step out, please? Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think we deserve a short break. Well, I'll make it 15 minutes if that's agreeable? And we can come back at 5:20. And it looks like we're going to go quite a bit later, assuming the cross- examination goes as provided and assuming our witness is able to hold up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we should plan on staying until quite late. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Merci. So first up, I believe, are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next if I could call on the Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe the Commission counsel can help you with the number?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Mr. former Police Chief Sloly, Counsel, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I’ll call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to sort of be a little bit shorter. I'm giving you a little more time, but it's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, the next is the Democracy Fund, Citizens for Freedom, and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. To the point. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If nobody knows, nobody can identify ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just let me finish, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think what we would need is to know what time these pictures were taken, where they were taken from, what they depict, by someone who knows. I’m just trying to make sure. That’s what would be useful for the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know when they were taken?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, we’re trying to get -- understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have a couple of short questions, Mr. Arpin. One is the -- and I’m just trying to understand about the 400 trucks. Your understanding, I just want to confirm, is that there were 400 trucks that would be moving pursuant to the agreement that you negotiated or that was negotiated?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And they could all be accommodated, if need be, on Wellington?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The 400, okay. And then the other thing I wanted to ask is you mentioned, I think you called it a temporary solution that you were negotiating between the 8th and the 13th. Was there a plan for a permanent solution at that time by the City?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there was no plan to resolve the problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This lack of police resources, what was the plan if they didn’t materialize? As I understand it, you had the discussions with who you reviewed, but did you see anyone as being responsible for coming up with a solution?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You use the term, “Belatedly”; what do you mean by that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To work collaboratively?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you’re -- I can try and summarize; you had no plan in that period, 8th to 13th. No plan was possible, in your view, without cooperation, and collaboration was late in coming. Is that a fair summary?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. And thank you for coming to testify, appreciate it. We’re all trying to get to those solutions. So that’s, we’ll end for today. And we’ll be back tomorrow morning at 9:30. I want to thank counsel, and in particular our interpreters and staff for staying late. That may be a regular event, but it still means that they deserve thanks. Merci à tous, et bonsoir.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, good morning. Okay. Today I think we start off, unless there's any preliminary business, I think we start off with the mayor of Ottawa. Is that correct, Ms. Rodriguez? Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just, you might slow down a bit for the interpreters. I’m just worried that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes. Be back at 25 to, or 24 to. And thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll take the time and go off for a break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we’re now into the second phase of the testimony. So if we could call on the Convoy organizers to go first?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The next up is Mr. Sloly's Counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. We can take 10 minutes ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- now and 15 minutes after lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So break you up into two parts.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. We'll rise until two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. You're ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And counting. The Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next we have the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt briefly? You're going to have to wrap up quickly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'll call on the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to call on now the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Mayor Watson, if I could just ask you on one subject, you mentioned at one point that the -- when you were having discussions with respect to the federal government, and I think you mentioned something about you couldn't go to the provincial government and berate them unless the federal government came across first. And you also said at one point the feds needed to do their duty, and that was with respect to policing. How do you see the federal role? Do they have an equal obligation, in your view, for the policing with the province, they're equally responsible, or do you see it differently? I'm just trying to understand, let's just say, because you were in the province before and you're now with the City. So I'm trying to understand that relationship.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. I guess my question was, you said the feds need to due their duty, and my question is really, do you see the federal government and the province having equal responsibility for policing in this area? Do you see that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And thank you for the time you took to come here. And good luck on your last stage in a very distinguished career.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now, while Mayor Watson leaves, I believe we’re going to be filing some documents.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, sorry. Oh, I forgot. Mayor Watson, there is a possibility of re-examination. I’m sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, Mayor Watson.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So now we’re going to just -- before we go to the next witness, we’re going to file some documents, which is going to be a weekly event.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now, next we’re -- we have a further witness, Mr. Rodriguez? And perhaps what we can do is start that evidence and maybe a break in, say, about somewhere around four o’clock, if that’s agreeable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back at 4:15.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, Counsel. First up is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the convoy organisers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next it’s former Chief Sloly’s counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next would be the Democracy Fund JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to go a little slower; I’ll even give you an extra minute or two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know, but it’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But it’s with the interpreters.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, it’s the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCDL and CLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now to the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, Mr. Ayotte. I just want to make sure I understood what you said about the fire issue with the Chateau Laurier. And you said they dispatched four fire trucks?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That would be the appropriate number of trucks, or was that more trucks than what the appropriate response is?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So, just so I understand, so when you say it wasn’t a high risk, it’s because it was broken fire plug, if you like, or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- sprinkler. But if there had been a real fire, that would be a real problem having not all of the trucks that were dispatched and, presumably, there would be more trucks dispatched if it were a real fire.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I guess all I’m trying to understand is the inability of some rigs to get there would have been a bigger problem if there had been a real fire. Because I think what I’m trying to understand is whether when you said it wasn’t serious, it’s because it wasn’t a real fire but access would have been limited if there had been a real fire.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that would have been a big problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you’re not saying it wasn’t a problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the same thing for Kent Street. If there’d been, as we saw, I think, yesterday, apartment buildings on Kent Street that were inaccessible ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- because Kent was blocked, that would have been a serious problem if there’d been a serious fire?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I thank you for coming. There’s just one more. You may some re-examination. No, there is no re-examination so we’re done for the day and we want to thank you for coming ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and testifying today. And thank you all for ending it a little earlier than I thought, and we are back tomorrow at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, bonjour. Welcome to Day whatever. We're going to take a short break. Counsel have asked to have a few moments to review one piece of evidence before we start, so we're going to take 15 minutes and we'll start at a quarter to 10. And again, I apologize for the delay, but these things will happen. So we're starting at 9:45 this morning. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning again. Re- bonjour. I take it there's a witness ready to go? I believe so?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could introduce yourself for the record?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we’ve got into a bit of a dispute here, so we’ll try and get it organized in a proper way. So, firstly, what is being sought? Are you intending to pursue this?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So what you’re trying to understand is what was the result of that meeting?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What she understood from that and not to relate the specific statements by ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the lawyer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any objection to that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any problem with that? I see you’re standing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So I think – oh, sorry, yes? You can remain seated, it’s probably better for the microphones. As long as I can see you, I’m happy.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think there’s a real issue around this also with respect to the testimony of the Mayor. I think you talked about this subject I believe also. So what I’d suggest, is counsel can discuss this. At this point it’s academic. I understand what you’re saying about it and it may come up on cross, so I’d suggest counsel, and Commission counsel, discuss this at the break or at the lunch because it should be discussed before the cross- examination. And certainly there has been a lot of talk about legal opinions, but I’m not going to go much farther at this point; it’s a question of what the City is going to -- the position the City will take and if that could be cleared up over the break, or the lunch, that would be appreciated; okay? Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good moment to take the morning break or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So before you turn to that, we’re going to take a 15-minute break and so we’ll be back at a quarter to 12.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you for the comments. Firstly, as I think was noted, you received it maybe two minutes after the Commission received it. So it’s not a question of the Commission, it’s a question of the documentation coming in. I think it’s been generally explained why it was not produced, but I think that could be explored further. I do share, obviously the Commission shares, the concern about fairness. Fairness is fundamental to this process. So if there are fairness issues, I will entertain them. Whether that’s required or not at this stage, I don’t know. Nor do you, I gather, because you don’t have instructions. So what I’d suggest is that we explore a little further why this wasn’t produced so that the record is clear, at a minimum, and then once you get instructions, we’ll see where we go from there.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think your concern was clear; I understand it; I was simply putting for the record that -- and the reality is, and I think it was clearly put in my original statement, is that, you know, we are pressed for time; so are all the parties, but first let’s start where the -- why this was late disclosure; I think that’s important it be on the record and maybe that can be explored briefly. And if it’s any comfort, you’re not the first on the list to cross-examine, so you’ll have the opportunity to get more time on that. But be assured, the Commission is concerned to the degree that we want to be fair and not knowing what’s in the recording, me either, I’m not in any position to say much more. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I think that’s helpful, I assume, for your getting instructions in terms of the process and the fairness issue, and we can deal with it after lunch if there are further -- if there’s follow-up on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, you’re going to have to make it quick.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There’s another objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have a little bit more time. The first to cross-examine I think is counsel for the former Chief, Mr. Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We certainly can. It's a little early, but if it's a good time for you, we'll take the lunchbreak, and come back at two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Make it very short, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next on the list we have the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the next up is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So just to get confirmation, is there any objection to the recording being played?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Seeing no objection, we'll sit back and listen to the witness in her own words and the witness from yesterday. Okay. Is that -- has that been lined up? Are we able to do that now or is that a problem?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, very efficient, eh? Okay. Madam Clerk, you can play it. [AUDIO PLAYBACK]
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's 10 minutes of your time. So go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ask the question. Don’t add the editorial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s not the test.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, I’ve missed something. You say the Commission is to look into the expenses of the City?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t see it as having any relevance, the amount that was paid. I think it’s been in evidence that he was paid severance, and I don’t think we -- I don’t see the relevance of going any further.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And by the way, your time is up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a minute and a half.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. You came under time. Okay. Next is the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. The next is the Government of Canada. And as you come up, if I can just be clear, I'm sure you know this, Mr. Migicovsky, is that if it becomes relevant, the question about salary with another witness or you -- somehow it becomes a relevant to this Commission, you can of course renew the question. I'm sure you know that, but I just want to be clear about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re now back to the final -- the Ottawa Police Services Board. Do you have any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It did and I skipped you. I apologize. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s been entered, as I understand it, so, yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, Commission Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you can raise it. I think Chief Sloly’s counsel, or former Chief Sloly’s counsel would raise the issue if it is brought up, as I understand it. I just was pointing out the normal routine, and if it becomes relevant I’m not sure how we would deal with it, it was simply there. Because when Chief Sloly testifies I can’t anticipate what’s going to happen. And sometimes something is not relevant at one point, but further evidence raises issues. I -- not much I can do about that, but I’m on the notice that you have a view and I think we can deal with it when and if the time comes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And so that completes, as I understand it, subject to re-examination -- because I take it you have no further submissions on behalf of the Board?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Or questions, rather. Okay. So go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think that ends the testimony of Councillor Deans. Thank you very much for your evidence, for coming forward, and as was said earlier, for your service. We’re going to go take a 15-minute break, until we move to the next witness. It looks like it’ll be another late day, so people should prepare in consequence. I’m not sure how late we’ll go because what we don’t get done today will be added to tomorrow. So 15 minutes. We’ll come back at 25 after 4:00. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just one last -- I just want to thank counsel for having worked out the potential issues. It’s appreciated, and resolution is always appreciated with respect to time and disputes. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could just interrupt, Superintendent? Just if you could slow down a little bit because all this is getting translated as you go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I know you’re effective, but -- effective with a little more patience in speaking will help.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you, we’re going to keep going if you’re up to it, and if so -- I take it you are up to it? Okay. So we’re going to take a 15 minute break so that you can load up with water or whatever and come back and we’ll go through the cross-examinations. Fifteen minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Welcome back. First up is the Ottawa Police Service. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Your time is just about out on my clock, so if you could try and wrap up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I call on the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The pressure is on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s probably the best way to proceed if we can’t get video, if you’re prepared to do that, otherwise we can find another option. But are you prepared to proceed on that basis?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What was that number again, sorry?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ontario Provincial Police; any ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have maybe a general question. You talked about, and we heard a lot about, Project HENDON. Is there a federal equivalent to that type of updated information circular, almost, like, you provide?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know of any reason why it's Ontario that's -- the Ontario Provincial Police that's quarterbacking this rather than a federal agency?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then just another thing and I'm not sure, my note is not clear, but I thought you distinguished between a potential national security threat or a risk to -- of national security -- to national security. Is there a difference between the two ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and could you explain that for me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now you didn't mention the Manitoba border crossing or the Surrey border crossing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a reason for that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony and it's very interesting and forthright. Thank you very much. You're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we're now going to break until tomorrow morning, 9:30, and tomorrow should be a little bit shorter day, but don't count on it. We have always some uncertainties which makes it always a challenge but also interesting.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Today, we have a new witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm not sure. There is a bit of an echo. Okay, is that better? Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
(Inaudible response)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just for the record, maybe do the number.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I think the - - certainly you're correct in terms of the Commission is to bring out the evidence either way and to bring all of the facts to the public eye. And to the degree there is material that goes the other way, I'm sure Commission Counsel will refer to it, and if they don't, I'm sure you will, but I can assure you, our objective in this hearing is to provide the public with all of the information, pro and con, of course, as you point out. And can't guarantee we're always a hundred percent correct in what we do. We do the best we can. And, of course, you also know that there is always enough cross-examination time to equal the amount of time Commission takes. So in total, we hope that all of the different perspectives are brought out. And yesterday I think was a good example, where there was some very useful, I thought, information brought out by the various parties participating. So I certainly am grateful for the contribution of all the parties. So your question is noted, your concern is noted, and I'm sure Counsel will take it into account.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so do you want to take a short break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we can take our morning break, 15 minutes, and we'll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The first up in cross-examination is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is former Chief Sloly's Counsel, and it looks like it'll be like yesterday, you'll be split in two, if that's agreeable. You'll do 10 minutes before lunch and then -- and finish after lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just introduce yourself, please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’ll take an hour for lunch and come back and continue this. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could first introduce yourself and speak up a bit, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to now call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that would be fine. It's been entered in evidence, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if she needs it, it can be brought up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could try and focus on questions she can answer? I mean, I appreciate you've prepared them, but you know ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm not sure it's helpful to the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, Deputy Chief, thank you for coming. I just have a couple of very quick questions. I’m just trying to understand a bit about PLT that you talk about it. And would I be correct in saying that they are intended to stop lawlessness and turn the protest into something that is legal or not disruptive -- would be an objective of PLT?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And “to leave”, i.e., leave where they’re disruptive?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, in terms of the process here -- and I think I saw somewhere in your testimony that by the Monday, you called it an “occupation”; it moved from a protest to an occupation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any discussion or thought given to how to allow the protest to continue in some form because -- as opposed to -- it seems, and I’m not putting words in your mouth, like it was from black to white or black to white, however you want to call it; it was a protest, “Okay, you’re okay until the end of the day Sunday,” but now it’s an occupation. Do you understand what I’m trying to get at?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there was no part of the plan to allow a continuing or to encourage the protestors to in some way -- and I realize there’s a lot of trucks and a lot of problems but the move towards something that was -- because as I understand it, there were a lot of people who were protesting who weren’t violent and were not problematic; would that be fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, thank you very much. Thank you for coming and thank you for your testimony. I think what we’ll do is take the morning break now and -- or “morning break”, I’m sorry. I’m hinting you’re going to be here a long time. But no, that’s just a slip of the tongue, sorry. So we’re going to take the afternoon break so we’ll take 15 minutes and let the -- everyone have a -- get their -- stand up and get a little exercise, so 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. Just before we call the next witness, just to give you an update for counsel and for those who are glued to their computer at home, we’re planning to go ahead with the next witness, who I believe will be two hours or so, and then we’ll adjourn for the day. So we’ll give you an early day. Tomorrow at the moment, it appears it’s not going to go very late. It will be a bit shorter than normal for those who want to make arrangements, so just to update you on the plan so far. So with that introduction, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is no 33.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you, Superintendent. That’s very useful, and the bad news is, we want you back tomorrow.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we're going to adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning, and if everything goes right, you should be out before lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We'll rise til 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, bonjour. So we have Supt. Abrams. If you could come forward, please? (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you ready to proceed?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the first up, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
25th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Migicovsky, you're well over time, so I'm going to have to ask you to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the lawyer for former Chief Sloly, Tom Curry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ve not seen that type of trading going on ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and I don’t want to encourage it, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but I have been a little bit liberal because it’s Friday ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and we don’t have as much of a heavy schedule. But I -- so I will have some indulgence, but please don’t abuse it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Let him finish.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- again, you’re interrupting. Please, let him finish.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you’re over your time and I’m being generous.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s important to be fair to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please, let’s -- you get to ask questions, don’t turn things around, please. Be fair to this witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think he said south of the 401.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re well over your time, so you’re going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you -- according to my notes, you had 10.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the Province of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to do it very quickly, you're already over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And now if I could call on JCCF Democracy Fund?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any examination by the OPP next?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that completes your examination and cross-examination. Thank you very much for appearing and for your evidence. It's complete, you're now free to leave.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, so we're I think at the time where everybody's entitled to a break. So we will take a break until five after twelve, and then we'll come back and go with our next witness, who I understand is Chief Superintendent Pardy.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Okay, we have another witness, Counsel? Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I think he said he'd swear?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On a religious document?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Bible?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it’s a good time for lunch ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we’ll take an hour for lunch and come back after.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Very perspicacious on your part. Okay. So they’re going to break for lunch and we’ll come back in an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Okay. We’re ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a little over 17 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. This may be a good time for an afternoon break. I think it’s -- since we’re going to go for certainly an hour or better. so I’ll take a 15- minute break and we’ll come back, if that’s okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We’re back. Are you prepared to proceed? Okay. Next I’d like to call on the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, we’ll call upon the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the JCCF Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I’m not sure mechanically how we can do this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, is there any objection? Obviously, if the OPP seems to have no problem with it, I think it should just go ahead. If you can give the number so that we can then get it before the Commission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if you want to follow up on it, you can ask at the time, and obviously, I have discretion to allow that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now call on the Government of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Government of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Does the OPP have any re-examination or any examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am sorry, I must have skipped them. I apologize. Mr. Champ, you have five minutes, and I’ll even give you six if you need it, given my error.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now I will call on the OPP. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Can I just check with the Government of Canada? Are you content; there’s nothing further you’d like? No. Okay. I just have a couple of questions, Chief Pardy. About -- there have been words about what the operation, and it’s been referred to, as I understand it, as ending the occupation but also some people have said ending the protest. Is there a difference, in your mind, between the approach of saying the plan is to end the protest, or end the occupation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And in that, I just want to ask you if you could have a look at your Mission Statement, and we’ve had it referred to and I think it’s OPP1851. And I think we might be at page 8, I think, if I’m correct for the -- go down a bit or -- yeah, it’s up a bit. It’s the Mission Statement I’m looking for. No, that’s not the right document, then.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Then where would it be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It may be further down. I think it was ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Page 8?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There it is. Okay. And I’m wondering here you’ve put in: “...with the utmost respect to the individuals Charter of Rights and Freedoms...” And I was wondering; was there any thought about there are protesters there that may wish to protest appropriately, if I can call it, without breaking law; i.e. continue a protest legally in some manner, in some place?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was that taken into account?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess that’s why I was wondering about your answer as saying ending the protest and ending the occupation you took as being the same.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the PLT was seeking to reduce -- shrink the footprint, but are you saying they also would facilitate a continuing legal protest in some location or in some manner?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any part of the plan that provided for this aspect that you’ve just described that you could continue your protest legally, just not here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- are you aware of people after, or members of the public, in media or otherwise, criticizing, after the fact, the operations, saying they simply wished to peacefully protest?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Fair enough.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And so just to close that loop, so are you -- do you feel the plan was adequate in terms of allowing continued protests for those who may wish it at -- in retrospect?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
One other thing I just want to explore briefly. You spoke about PLTs. And I don’t know how to put it. It was not necessarily embraced as it maybe should have been by OPS in this operation. Is that fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I meant the initial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, a lot of the work of PLT involves, as you’ve talked about, negotiating, de- escalating.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And for those who wish to bring a quick end to a protest, PLTs maybe are not viewed in the same way? Or they’re viewed as delaying what they wish as a result?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You may be going the wrong direction -- you’re thinking I’m going the wrong direction. I’m not disagreeing with that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What I’m trying to get at is the public often is not aware of the role and importance of PLTs because they want results. Would that be fair? In some cases.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I guess all I’m asking is, do you think an important component in a protest such as this is educating the public on the need for the process to be worked through, negotiation, et cetera? In other words, because we heard a lot about public pressure to close ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- this down. And I’m just asking whether there is a role for public education?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. And thank you for your testimony. Very -- we appreciate, even though you’re in retirement. Yes, I’m sorry?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m -- there is no provision for re-examination. We’re not going to reopen it. There will be plenty of witnesses you can question about the process as they come through. But I’m not going to reopen, because you wouldn’t be the only one.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So with that, thank you for your testimony, and especially since you’re retired. Appreciate it. We’re going to rise until Monday morning at 9:30. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Great Monday morning. Nice to see you all back again. So we have a new witness this morning?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead. Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just introduce yourself for the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me a minute. Are you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we have a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So internet connection is gone for everyone, but not for me? (LAUGHTER)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe there's something to be read into that. Just take a moment, and the technicians are dealing with it. Because obviously, those who don't have perfect sight may not be seeing the monitors. Can you tell me when it's back up? Thank you very much. (TECHNICAL ISSUE - SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you want me to take a break to -- while you fix it? Okay, we'll take a 10-minute break and come back. Sorry about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand the technical glitch has been corrected, with our apologies.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The paragraph right at the top.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Here. "Interim Chief Bell saw it as OPS" ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the morning break. We’ll take 15 minutes ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and come back I guess a little after twenty-to. Thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re near the time for the lunch break, so just if you could be sensitive to when’s a good time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it’s convenient.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the lunch break for an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome back. There’s a bit of an internet problem. It’s not here. It’s the service provider, which means that we don’t control it. We’re working on trying to get it joined. We have two choices. We can continue and all of our functions continue, the webcast and the access to the document, but you will not have access on your laptops. You may be able to tether to your phones, but that’s an issue. So the question is whether we should or should not proceed on that basis. We can delay. I’m looking for a consensus or a response. I obviously don’t mind because it doesn’t affect me, so that’s what I’m canvassing. If you could -- I’m told you have to introduce yourselves because they’re having trouble in the transcripts when there’s an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Obviously there’s a lot of organization in the convoy organizers. So if that resolves everyone -- to everyone’s satisfaction.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there you go. Thank you for that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could call on the counsel for former Chief Sloly, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police at this stage?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, just a moment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just identify yourself again?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the question with a request was and the witness will answer that he wanted the actual words of the report. I don’t -- I didn’t take him to say he wanted to see each of the reports, but that’s up to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, this may be a good time for the afternoon break. People may need to stretch their legs so we’ll take 15 minutes and come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’d like to call on the convoy organizers. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you speak up a bit. It’s not ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm sorry. There's an objection. Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just let him finish his objection, then we can try and solve it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, you were about to add something?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have any objection to reference to this document? It seems to me it's the police document you referred to earlier.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. On that basis, is that -- can we proceed with this at the moment?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If you could make clear when we put it up, just so the record is clear?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead. So -- and just so I know, so you've -- what is your annotations here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the red column is simply your addition or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- lining up all the numbers?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it's just simple math; 29 to 13 is not ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- 17, it's 16.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re pretty well out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the Ottawa Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have to scroll down. I'm sorry, up, up, yes. All right.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a note, you're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can hear you but cannot see you yet.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is like the fourth time you’re going at that same question so I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the Province of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just identify for the record again, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So that terminates your evidence. Thank you very much Acting Chief Bell.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I think we're ready for another witness I take it. Who is leading this witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Inspector Lucas. Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Fair.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. For cross- examination I believe it's first Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re about out of time, so if we could wrap up, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next we have the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it's necessary go ahead, but...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The OPP, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, well, I could have been more generous. The Ottawa Coalition?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to slow down a bit in your questions? Because the interpreters, I think, are going to have a lot of trouble.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know there’s not much time, but.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next if I could call on the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time at the moment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next I call on Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, maybe speak up a bit more, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we can hear you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And now for the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you'll re-identify yourself for the record?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Insp. Lucas, I just -- thank you for your evidence. I’m just trying to understand one piece. And the record may be clear, but I’m not quite clear. As I understand it, the plan, which we saw, did not encompass any plan for the post-weekend stay of truckers. That was something that was discussed and worked on, but there was no document at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I’m just trying to understand. You said there was a plan or discussion of how you would deal with that, but you also said that there was a lost opportunity to reduce the footprint. And I’m just trying to understand the play between those two, and specifically what you meant by what would have been done if you had been left to your own devices?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the lost opportunity you say is because you could not use PLT? Because I’m just trying to understand what was the lost opportunity and what caused it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So that terminates your evidence. Completes your evidence. Terminates sounds a little negative. So we’ll -- so that completes your evidence. Thank you very much. So we’re going to take the morning break. It’s a little late, but I think it’s still necessary. And when we come back, we’ll go on to our next witness. So 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bon après midi. So we have another witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We’ll take the lunch break till 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you ready to continue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First, I believe it's counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I’ll call on the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'll call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now for the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is all being translated and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- interpreted, so please, slow down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'd like to now call on the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
None. Okay. I just have one question, and you may not be able to answer it, but you were involved in the, if I can call it, the end piece when they ended the protest and police involvement. And you were involved with the PLTs at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was there any option offered at that time for continued, lawful demonstration? In other words, if people, and assuming there were demonstrators who wanted to continue a lawful demonstration because their aims had not been yet achieved, was there an option made available to them somewhere, some way to do that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm just trying to understand, and I appreciate what you say about the ongoing, but I'm -- and you may not know the answer. But as I understand there was a, sort of a exclusion zone created ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and people couldn't go in except certain individuals.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what was the final direction to people? Was it "you have to leave the zone"? I'm talking about the final days when ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- there was action. Was it at that point there would be action, you had to leave the zone, the protest was over, or was there an offer of something?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, that's very helpful. Thank you for your testimony and for coming to the Commission, and thank you for your work. We're going to take the afternoon break. You're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we'll take 15 minutes and come back with I believe it's a new witness. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, good afternoon. I just -- I’m sorry to be coming back always sort of quickly. I know everybody’s trying to cooperate but we’re -- obviously, we all want to get out early so I’m trying as much as possible to keep the schedule. Okay, so we have a new witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. You can look at your own based on what are told you have, but just say, "I'm looking at my notes," so that it's clear for the parties, okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know when will be a good time to break? Because as I understand this witness, you're going to be quite a bit longer, so it's going to carry over in any event?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is this a convenient time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'd suggest then we break until tomorrow, if that's agreeable with you also.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sure you're happy to end the day at 6:30. Okay. So, we'll break until tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we will complete the in-Chief and then go to cross-examinations. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Are we ready to proceed, Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Appeased.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Appeased.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t usually ask questions until the end, and usually it’s well covered by everyone, but I may.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re going to move to the cross-examination phase. If I could ask counsel for former Chief Sloly to go first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Again, you need to go ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- a little slowly for -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Perhaps this is a good time for the morning break, to give everyone a little time to stretch their legs, including Supt. Bernier. Okay. So we’re taking 15 minutes. And we’ll come back at just after noon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next up for cross- examination is the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, what I'd suggest is go ahead, assuming you're efficient and effective in your 25 minutes, I'll consider giving the 5. If you're not, I won't. How's that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could speak a little slower? To me it’s a bit, like, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Government of Canada. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not sure I want to waste three minutes, but maybe... Well, I'll...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I'll be magnanimous today. We'll have an hour and three minutes for lunch, and come back at two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m just a Commissioner here, so there’s no need to stand. I know it’s bad habits, but we’ve got a different procedure. Okay. Are we ready to continue? I guess we’re now on the City of Ottawa, I think, who didn’t want to use my two minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Those two minutes could have been used. So the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the Ontario Provincial Police. Next I’ll call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund Group.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I’ll call on the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can see you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now I’d like to call on the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Province of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I just have a couple of short questions that -- some of it is just clarification. In response to questions of the Ottawa Police Service, you talked about the intelligence teams being more concerned about certain kinds of threats than other kinds of threats. I just want to make sure I've got that correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that -- your observation was with the reviewing the Hendon report, you saw that it was broader and covered areas of -- and I don't know if I got my note right, more public order problems? Is that what you were saying?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then another question I had, and this was in answer, I think, to the JCCF, and you were talking about -- you were asked about whether a common law powers was in -- in respect to the common law powers being less well defined, and even if you -- a court found after the fact that you exceeded your powers, you still would have dealt with the occupation. Do you remember that answer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I guess what's your concern about having exceeded your powers? Is that a concern to you if the courts after the fact find you've exceeded your powers? What does that mean to you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I take it you wouldn't have been happy if you had -- a court found you had exceeded your powers?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
One of the things again at the beginning of your testimony, and this goes back to your position you held or the function you held before you were the Incident Commander. The -- you talked about processing or cataloguing the plans.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you -- and I think you answered this, but did you ever find a plan or an element of a plan that would encompass the possibility of protestors overstaying the weekend?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we heard testimony earlier from another witness about whether was an opportunity after the weekend to, I believe it was, reduce the footprint that was missed. Do you have any knowledge or comment about that or do you agree or disagree?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it was a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it referred to ability to reduce the footprint if they had acted then. You don’t have any knowledge of that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. Very helpful. So that completes your evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re free to go. Thank you. So we’re now ready to proceed with the next witness, and I think probably we should get started and have the break later on. And who’s going to be leading this witness from Commission counsel? Five minutes to get the witness settled? Okay. Five minutes. We’ll rise and come back in five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time to take ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ll take a 15-minute break, give you a chance to stand up and move around. And we’ll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You’re okay to continue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. First up is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers. Okay. We’ll move to counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are the convoy organisers organised yet? Okay. Mr. Champ on behalf of the Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’ll have to be very quick because your time is up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the OPP. Okay, and JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
In the circumstances, I don't see a problem unless any counsel points anything out. So seeing none, sure, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had said you wanted to go to page 60, but I don’t ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that ends your testimony, you'll be pleased to hear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you very much for coming and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for your evidence, and for staying so late. I know it's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I imagine you are. Okay. So we're going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. This is the first day of our third week, so it's only five more weeks to go. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excellent. So we're going to swear you in and then get started.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you need a break, you'll let us know, but we normally have a morning break of 15 minutes, and lunch break of an hour, and a break in the afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Commissioner, if I can just remind you, you may not know, this is being translated as you speak and sign interpretation as you speak, so if you could scroll down just a bit, that would be appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a reminder, you’re speeding up again.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you’re enthusiastic, and we all love to testify, but ’t's -- if you can just try and keep in mind.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, that’s fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Certainly. We can take a 15-minute break and come back in 15 minutes to continue the examination. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I'm not a judge today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, no. Is there the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're good. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So this is time for our lunchbreak, so we'll take an hour and come back in an hour to continue. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, are you prepared to go on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So I’d like to call on the Government of Canada to go first, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, well I think you should give them to the interpreters. But I will call on Mr. -- counsel for Mr. -- former Police Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, as you know, so ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I think next - - well, we can take the morning break now or a bit later. I think there's a sense we should take it now. So we'll take a 15-minute break and continue on our return.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just before we continue, I just want to, for the record, I should have noted it when the matter came up in questioning from Mr. Curry, he made reference to the witness statement of Supt. Earley. And for the record, that statement will not be marked as an exhibit until Supt. Earley comes to testify. So just so the media and public don’t look for it on the website, but practice is if we’re calling the witness, it normally will not be made public until the witness adopts it. So with that precision, I think I’m now calling on the Ottawa Police Service. Okay. So there’s been a trade. Fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh. And are there future considerations? Okay. So just so I’m clear, are you -- you’re giving up your time to the city?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, you're out of time. So if you could try and wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the convoy organisers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slowly when you’re reading, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, so if you can wrap up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We're on a bad run for overstaying. Windsor Police Service is next.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could next call on the City of Windsor.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, perhaps we could put it up. You could ask the question, but this probably should have come earlier in your examination because you're already over time. So if you could put it up and see what the question is and then I'll -- and see what the witness can say and I'll rule on it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're now well over time. So you're going to have to wrap up and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Make them. That document can be entered as an exhibit, so that it's available to the public.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I'd like to call on the ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, you were. If you want to go ahead now, that's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. On that question about the Solicitor General, we’re going to move on to the next, which is the -- now it is the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you start by introducing ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- yourself, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re not out of time as of yet, but you’re working on it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the JCCF. And who's on for the -- oh, there are. Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the National Police Federation.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I would call on the Province of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, call on the Province of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, I'd like to call on the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I -- it leaves me with the possibility to ask a few questions. Given the hour, I'm going to try and be relatively limited and just a few bits of information. You, towards the end of your testimony, you were asked about the Hendon reports and if there is anything similar in the federal -- from the Federal Police Service. And I think you said not to your knowledge?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, given the progress since then, and rail blockades are not something limited to Ontario, and the issues that are being dealt with in Hendon from my reading are not limited to Ontario, is this something that should be taken up by the federal authorities to provide a national Hendon report?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And this is a -- I kind of just -- I have a note that I'd like you to complete for me. You talked about, and I may have the note wrong, that you thought the protests at the two different ends of the province, being Windsor and Ottawa, were -- I have a note something that they're coordinated or planned. Did you say that, and as -- could you explain, unpack that for me?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And -- so that's your belief, but I think you said you don't have any concrete evidence of that in terms of any documentation or something to support that other than you as a police officer who has been involved?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And another clarification, and I may have missed it. You'll recall the February 5th exchange you had with Commissioner Lucki where there was mention of the Emergencies Act, and you were asked whether you had any other, and I know you had testified you weren't aware when they declared the Emergency Act, but between the 5th of February and the declaration, did you have any other exchange where the Emergencies Act was raised with Commissioner Lucki or anyone else?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then again, you talked about a Incident Command Structure, the need for a consistent Incident Command Structure across Canada, and I don't know if -- I didn't make a note as to whether one exists or does not exist. And if you could help me with that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, that's helpful, thank you. There's one last area I want to, and again, I'm just trying to get a little more information. And this deals with the discussions you had with counsel for the OPP, and it's the - - your enquiries about tools. And I'm trying to understand, did you say you had some input about what would go into the EMPCA Declaration of Emergency?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, did you have any input into the Ontario Declaration of Emergency on what went into it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So not the declaration but the legislation that implemented it if you implemented the tools?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And in that discussion, did you ask for authority with respect to towing of vehicles?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And is that because you understood the Act would not -- could not empower the Province to do that or that it was a decision not to include it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you're -- I guess I'm simply asking, was that one of your requests and then it went into the black box and you don't know what happened after?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess, to be clear, I mean, was your input this would be helpful?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, we also had some evidence you gave about exclusion zones and common-law power about exclusions, and in fact there were powers given, certainly, about the Ambassador Bridge and Interprovincial Bridges under EMPCA, as I understand it; that’s correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there discussions or do you have an understanding as to whether the exclusions around Wellington were discussed in your input that you had?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Was your understanding from the EMCPA and the legislation that followed that you could create and exclusion zone around Wellington under that emergency legislation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that’s on the basis critical infrastructure?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So, just to be clear, your understanding is Wellington was declared to be critical infrastructure like the bridges and so on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So blocking any roadway would be critical infrastructure, then, under the Act?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it would be -- it would -- I guess you’re explaining that that declaration prevented blocking any roadway in Ontario. Essentially, you had the powers under the Act to clear that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony. Obviously, we’ve gone over. It shows how your testimony was important to the parties and with our thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re free to go. NA
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re going to adjourn until tomorrow. I just wanted to make one additional point. As I understand, we’re starting with Former Chief Sloly tomorrow and his evidence will be in-chief tomorrow. It’s scheduled to take the day. In the unusual circumstances where he will go over to the next day, I’ve been asked whether there is any difficulty with his counsel speaking to him over the weekend before he enters cross-examination and I just wanted to see if there were any issues being raised by counsel. It seems to me reasonable under the circumstance but if there’s any objection, I’d like to hear it. If not, then I will be giving that leave given the circumstances. Seeing no objection, we will rise and will reconvene tomorrow at 9:30.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I gather we have a new witness? Okay, I think we're ready to go ahead, then. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could just interrupt briefly? This is being translated and there’s sign language and you’re a little bit fast on the output. If you could try and -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s quite understandable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You want us to take a break and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you would like, sure, we can take the morning break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, it's okay. There's no need to stand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A reference to what?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well it’s further up. There’s a reference to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- Chief, I saw.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the lunchbreak for an hour, and come back to continue the evidence. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So with that parenthesis, go ahead. Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
“Briefing”?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take a 15- minute break and then come back to complete the examination by Commission counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well maybe I’ll take another couple of minutes in the circumstances.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are you okay to continue? Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Absolutely. We’re just trying to get to the bottom of things, so no, there’s no -- if there’s a problem -- and in fact, by the -- later in the day something comes to you, please interrupt and put it forward.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're finishing a little early. I'm not sure if we want to start cross-examination, but I promised we wouldn't, so I'm going to adjourn. I just want to raise, if there are any concerns, of course as was mentioned, this has been a very tight schedule, a very -- a lot of documents, a lot of movement, everybody in my view has cooperated very well. But if there's anything that is of concern to the Commission, please don't hesitate to raise it, either with Commission Counsel or directly with me. Because ultimately, I think we know it's been stressful, but I think we're doing a not bad job. Certainly the -- I'm very impressed with everyone's work so far. So thank you, and have a great weekend.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Another exciting week. So I think we're continuing with former Chief Sloly if he's up to it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the first up, I believe is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wait. I’m going to have to interrupt. I think you should be very careful; you have on a couple of occasions done it. It happens, but please be cautious.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry. He was just -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- finishing his answer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think a lot of this is re-examination, if need be. There is conflicting material. And I think given the short timeline that we're -- we have, there is a certain amount of liberty. But if you could as much as possible put everything in context without necessarily citing everything.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just try to not talk over him, and if you could try and tighten your questions a bit.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think let’s see where it goes first and give him some time, if he needs it, but at the moment, I’m -- I don’t see a problem. This is a document that would have been available, certainly, to him when he was Chief, but that can certainly be asked. And if he’s not familiar, he can take the time to review it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just sort out ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please let me control the proceeding.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if you're going to reference a comment in the record you should either ask him to confirm it. If he doesn't want to confirm it or deny it until he sees it, then you have to take it to him, but you can't -- it's not useful to just say there is this in the record.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He's not -- excuse me. He's not asking you about the statement, he's just asking you if you recall and whether you agree or disagree.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, he’s asking what meeting this is that the notes of.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is 14479.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We can move on the Convoy Organizers, if you’d like to start and do sort of 15 minutes or a half hour? I think that probably is best. But if it is a problem, then we can take the morning break now. I was afraid of that. Okay. I shouldn’t have given you the option. My problem. Okay. Well we’re going to take the morning break for 15 minutes and we’ll come back with the Convoy Organizers then.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just speak up a bit, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that's why it's good to have these things done in advance and not last minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you'll appreciate I gave you no option.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had to come.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a good sense. So if this was a good time, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we’ll take the lunchbreak and come back in an hour.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I believe it’s the Canadian Constitutional Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that’s unusual. Is there any objection? So maybe we can see. Again, that will not be entered as an exhibit in the normal course. It’ll just be referred to and wouldn’t go in as an exhibit until -- if and until Minister Blair comes to testify. So go ahead, and we’ll see if there’s any problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We've had excellent service with our document people.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The next if I can call on the CCLA?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ms. Zwibel, just to remind you, you're over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As long as they're quick and sharp.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the National Police Federation, but before we turn to them, this might be a good time for the morning break. I don't mean to -- or, I'm sorry, the afternoon. I'm just having -- it's so exciting that I want to hear more. Thank you for the correction. I will take the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, where -- are you ready?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next it’s the Democracy Fund and JCCF. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The next is counsel for Mr. Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you are?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The voice would've given an indication which counsel, but I think there are three, so it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- doesn't say everything.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure we're going to -- that we -- we're going to be giving evidence lawyer to lawyer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want, if you want the counsel to ask the witness a further question you might put it that way, but I'm not going to ask for evidence from counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, the question stands. What it means is something that -- the witness can be asked what he understands from the question, but I -- it's not up to you to cross-examine or question the questioner. If you want a further opportunity to ask questions to the witness that's fine. The questions and answers -- maybe I've misunderstood, but there was a question and it was answered. Is that -- am I wrong about that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But you were, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What are you seeking?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, if everybody's content I'm content. So you've completed?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I don't have much. I only have one area I want to just touch base with you on, and that’s following up a question you answered from Ms. Rodriguez towards the end. And it was something like, "they", I think referring to the OPP and RCMP, the Commissioners, might not like our plan, but there is a plan. Is that -- do you remember that answer, that question?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then I'm trying to understand a bit -- big picture what that plan involved, and I saw as we went through the documents, there was reference to -- and I think this comes from meetings with the levels of government but also from other documents -- that there was, for example, bite-size plans to, for example, deal with the Rideau Centre or the Rideau and Sussex problem. And we heard about that operational plan. I guess what I'm asking was, big picture, was the plan as you saw it at that time, that you would take bites out of the whole demonstration, starting with Rideau and then moving to other areas -- I think I saw reference to that -- and you would take chunks out of it? That was big picture, the plan you conceived of at that time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because you did talk about this 24-hour to 72-hour, and I'm just trying to understand, was that, in essence, the plan you were referring to when you said, "We do have a plan", or is it another plan that is the one, as you say, the big plan to take down everything, or were they separate plans? I'm trying to understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because I'm just -- I'm still having some trouble understanding. If you have the take and hold, basically, and I think that was explained to the -- one of the documents to the tripartite group, I think, saying, "Well, that allows us to move," and it included, I think, moving to Wellington. So I'm trying to understand, you need a big plan if you've got the bites that work. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that may answer the question I was going to ask you. So your bite-size plan process, you weren’t asking or you weren’t complaining about the lack of additional resources by OPP and RCMP to fuel that sub- plan, you were focused on the big plan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. That’s helpful. So we'll adjourn for the -- oh, sorry? Oh, yes. There's one further announcement to make. I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. With that further explanation of our witness not attending, we're going to adjourn for the day, and tomorrow, I think we're going to start with some of the witnesses that were involved in the protests themselves, I believe, or organizing the protests. So adjourned til tomorrow morning at 9:30. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just a couple of comments before we get started. This -- the rest of this week, the witnesses being called are in a little different situation in the sense that most, if not all, do not have a witness statement that's been filed, and in some cases, Commission Counsel may not even have interviewed them or interviewed them to any extent. So the estimates of time are, therefore, a little less certain than they normally are. So I just want to raise, if people -- some of the parties have put time in, if you like, as a stakeholder in case something came up, you might want to advise Commission Counsel at the end of the evidence that you're -- you -- there is no need. And those who see something come up that makes it such that they feel they need more time, can maybe be given more time. So I'm going to be a little more flexible than normal in the circumstances because we don't really know what's going to come out and to what degree it will affect one or other party more than what was expected. So I'm just setting that out. The times are challenging this week. They will be big weeks, big days, rather, so I will still be somewhat strict about timelines, but flexible if there is movement available, given that some people, I suspect, and I don't mean to suggest anything nefarious, but people may have taken positions on timing they won't need. So that's just as a preliminary, and that would apply, I think, for the witnesses for the balance of the week. So with that brief introduction, have we got a witness planned?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (APPLAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if I could ask, and I realise there's a fair amount of interest by some parties, and maybe some emotional investment in some of the testimony, but I would ask that we keep it the way it normally is in a courtroom and in a -- an inquiry so that we can keep it going also. We don't have much time. So with that, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we can deem that the witness has objected to answers each and every question, and that -- on the grounds of the answers may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish liability in a civil proceeding. So I think that's taken as a given, and has been filed in the record.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've heard worse. I've heard worse. Don't worry.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we have the cross-examinations to go ahead. The Government of Canada I think is up first.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to note, you're out of time, but do you know if you'll be much longer?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you'll want to make it ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I'm not sure this is hugely helpful in the sense that he can't comment on any of these, but maybe you can just file it for the moment and try it on someone else when you have some time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that takes us, I think, to the morning break. So we'll take a little time. And so we'll take 15 minutes and continue on the return.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next -- I understand it’s the City of Ottawa wants to go next.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, then, let’s start with the City of Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I believe, is the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the Ontario Provincial Police.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Sloly’s counsel? (SHORT PAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Residents.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’ll call on the CCLA.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, JCCF and Democracy Fund.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just hold on a minute? Yes?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just -- let's be careful again. You've got to...
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, any re-examination?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I just have a couple of questions. They're probably just general in the sense of what would be the cost of the fuel to have driven here from Saskatchewan?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just one thing I wanted to follow up up on was the -- you were -- one of your main functions or certainly what you were doing was to try and keep the emergency lanes open.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you said there were some that you just couldn't keep open, and I think you mentioned Rideau. Is that ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So those are two areas where the lanes just couldn't be kept open?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there other areas that you found either you couldn't keep open or were regularly problematic?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And would that be because they were not, among other things, they weren't part of your group? Is that -- or is it were they part of your group, some of them?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And that's -- those are my questions. So thank you very much for coming. And ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we'll -- we will adjourn for the lunchbreak. We'll take an hour for lunch and come back with another witness.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour, bon après-midi, good afternoon.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-y.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. (COURTE PAUSE)
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…vers le micro, c’est pour les fins du dossier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Je comprends et je considère que le témoin s’oppose à répondre à chaque question pour le motif que ses réponses pourraient tendre à l’incriminer ou tendre à établir sa responsabilité dans une procédure civile ou criminelle, quelle qu’elle soit. Et si, sans la présente loi, ou toute loi provinciale, le témoin eut été dispensé de répondre à cette question, alors bien que le témoin soit, en vertu de la présente loi ou d’une loi provinciale, forcé à répondre - puis j’entends, je comprends qu’il est sous sommation - sa réponse ne peut être invoquée et n’est pas admissible en preuve contre lui dans une instruction ou procédure pénale exercée contre lui par la suite, sauf dans le cas de poursuite pour parjure en rendant ce témoignage, ou pour témoignage contradictoire. Alors, on tient pour acquis qu’il s’est objecté pour chacune des questions.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ça suffit, alors merci.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous pouvez lire un peu…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ils sont en train de tout traduire, alors, il faut modérer, s’il vous plaît.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
En attendant, j’ai manqué le nom du stationnement où vous étiez.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Zibi.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et ça, c’est où le stationnement Zibi? C’est…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, non, s’il vous plait.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m going to have to empty the room if there is -- no ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- outbursts like that. S'il vous plait, le respect oui, vous avez de l’émotion, je comprends, there’s a lot of support, but please respect that this is in the nature of a hearing and outbursts like that may require that I empty the hall, which I don’t want to do, because it’s a public inquiry and it’s important that people be here to witness it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez… ben non, exprimez-vous librement, c'est pas le problème. Le problème, c'est la discipline interne, ça, c'est ma job.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est l’objectif.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci! Alors, premièrement, j’aimerais demander au gouvernement du Canada d’aller en premier.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, il faut le dire. Sinon, c'est pas transcrit.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Allez-vous être beaucoup plus longtemps? Parce que votre temps est déjà écoulé.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je pense que le point, c’est que Rideau et Sussex, il aurait répondu – si ce n’est pas une fois, je dirais 15 fois. Alors, je ne pense pas que c’est un bon usage de votre temps, du temps que je vous donne additionnel de répéter les questions dans l’espoir que la réponse va être différente.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Il faut répondre.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Les organisateurs du convoi?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you going ahead in French?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OK.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et le Service de police d’Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’d like what?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Traduction?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On y va.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
J’espère que c’est intéressant!
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, la Police provinciale de l’Ontario.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous n’avez pas… on ne vous entend pas, y’a des problèmes d’audio.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je ne le sais pas. On ne l’entend pas. C’est pas… c’est in français ni anglais, c’est sourdine ou quelque chose. Can you at least hear us? Is that -- Okay, I’m not sure what ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
S’il vous plait, please. This is not a theatre, c’est pas un théâtre. S’il vous plait, j’ai été très patient et, sincèrement là, si je suis obligé, je vais vider puis vous le regarderez dans la salle de vidéo, puis je sais que c’est pas ce que les gens veulent, mais j’exige qu’il y ait une discipline dans la salle. So, please, I’m asking you to cooperate. If it happens, I’m going to have to ask everyone to leave and you will still watch it for the room by video, and I know that’s not what’s wanted but that’s what I’m going to do. This is a serious matter, it's the equivalent of a court, and I think everyone wants a certain amount of respect for the process. Alors, le prochain, c’est l’avocat pour monsieur Sloly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Maintenant, prochain ce sont les résidents d’Ottawa.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Prochain c’est le CCLA.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bon, le prochain c’est Democracy Fund (l'audio coupe).
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. Alors Monsieur St- Pierre.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. D’autres questions par…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Si je peux juste demander une couple de questions, Monsieur Charland. Juste pour partir où on a fini votre compte qui a été… il y a eu des restrictions, ce qui a réduit votre limite…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis personne vous a parlé de ça, c’est juste arrivé, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et vous aviez mentionné — puis peut-être j’ai mal compris puis c’est pour ça que je vous le demande — quelque chose… quand on vous parlait de violence, vous avez parlé des policiers qui ont… la violence, et vous avez mentionné un autre groupe, c’était-tu Antifa ou…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
C’est quoi, ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, il y a… est-ce que vous avez, vous, vu des membres d’Antifa ou des activités d’Antifa de vos propres…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non. Alors, c’était des rapports que vous avez eus…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…de violence…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…qui se passait.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de comprendre aussi, vous, je pense vous aviez un Winnebago, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis où était-il stationné?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous faisiez la navette à Ottawa?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
À pied?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et puis, alors, quel était votre… si je peux… je ne veux pas vous donner des titres là, mais quel était votre rôle quand vous étiez à Ottawa quand vous faisiez la traversée?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous étiez là pour représenter le mouvement, c’est ça?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis pour vous, je pense, votre groupe, si je peux l’appeler… parce qu’il semblerait qu'il y ait un… je veux pas rentrer sur Rideau-Sussex là, rassurez- vous, le…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Le groupe que vous aviez monté Rideau, mais… est-ce qu’il y a un… quelque identification de jusqu’où vous vous êtes rendu sur Rideau?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, non, je revenais à quand vous avez fait la traversée du pont.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Macdonald-Cartier, vous avez dit qu’ils vous ont dirigé, je pense, sur la rue Rideau.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous avez été aussi loin que possible.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis j’essaye de voir quel site ou comment est-ce qu’on peut identifier jusqu’à quel point le groupe auquel tu étais associé s’est rendu.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Puis vous, lors de cette arrivée-là, étiez-vous à la tête, étiez-vous dans un véhicule ou est-ce que c’est du ouï-dire quand on vous dit qu’est-ce qui est arrivé? Parce que vous, votre Winnebago était encore…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Ensuite… puis je veux juste confirmer, les interactions que vous auriez eues avec des policiers, je ne parle pas de ceux sur le pont puis je ne parle pas de ceux à Gatineau, mais soit des interactions ou des observations que vous avez faites de la police quand vous étiez à Ottawa à faire vos… votre… je le sais pas quoi, ambassadeur…
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…représentant, PR, quelle interaction avez-vous eue avec la police?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
D’accord. Parfait. Alors, ça, c’était les questions que j’avais. Je vous remercie de votre témoignage et d’être venu, et puis vous être libre de partir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors là, je pense que je vais prendre la pause d’après-midi et on va prendre 15 minutes et ensuite on va revenir avec notre prochain témoin. So we’ll take our afternoon break for 15 minutes, and come back with the next witness.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Your mic’s not on.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Ms. Scharf? It’s your choice. You can do it from there or come up to the front. As long as you can be heard and recorded.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that’s a good list. We haven’t had a list like that in any case. So let me try and address them. Firstly, you may not know but I’m not in the Liberal camp. I’ve been a judge for 20 years, so that’s just a fact.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I was appointed by the government, as you know.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not here to be cross- examined. I’m sorry; that’s not how it works.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- but I’m just giving you a fact. But, having said that, you of course can object to the Commission, how it was set up. That’s something I can’t do anything about. That’s something you would deal with in the Federal Court, and you’re certainly free to do that. In fact, I believe there are other parties who are in the Federal Court attacking the Emergencies Act, and I believe there’s also someone in Court today attacking one of my -- one of the subpoenas. So that’s something, if you think I’m not properly constituted, obviously that’s something you can pursue with it. There’s nothing I can do about that. In terms of your four questions. The objective here is to get the testimony that the public wants as to how this all developed. I think your client is -- we’ve heard, was very involved in it, and the Commission would like to hear her evidence. Obviously, how that’s going to happen, I said earlier today -- you weren’t here -- that because of the nature of these questions and the nature of what witnesses like Ms. Belton have, I will be flexible about time because ultimately what we’re after is getting a proper representation from the people as to what happened, why it happened. So I can’t say more than that except that that’s what our objective is, and we will be flexible for time. In terms of help, of course if she needs help, that’s something which, quite frankly, we’re more than sympathetic about. We want the help needed, if she needs it to get the documents out and to get the story out. That’s what this whole Commission is about, is about trying to get the information out. In terms of you questioning her, of course you can question her. It’s not -- it’s provided in the Rules. It will just come at the end, and how long, you’ll help guide us as to what’s needed. Our expectation is and Commission Counsel, if you have been following the Commission, has been very good to let the witnesses tell their story. Because we’re not here to try and push one line or the other. I think if you were here for the earlier witnesses today, they’re here to tell the story; Commission counsel will help bring it out. But of course you’re entitled to, as Ms. Belton’s counsel, to make sure if we’ve missed something, to allow her to do it. In terms of questioning other witnesses, all I could suggest is at the end of the day, you speak to Commission Counsel as to issues that you think Commission should pursue because, again, same objective; whether it’s this witness or any other witness, we want the story to come out. So that’s my best answer for your questions, your objections. As I say, I can do little about them. Federal Court might be happy to deal with it, might not. I leave that to you. So that’s my response. I’d like to be able to get on with Ms. Belton’s evidence, if I can. But I just want to hear if that’s -- if that’s agreeable.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, as I say, I will be flexible for that, and if you want more time, I’ll give you more time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So can we proceed?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, and I think he was deferring to me whether you could question, and as I've said, that’s not the way we operate. But if you speak to either Mr. Mather or to Mr. Leon, they can make sure the concerns, to the degree they're relevant as evidence, can be brought out, because obviously, we want to make sure the issues that are important to the Commission and to the public are ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I understand that.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry. That’s not the way it works. It is not the process, but I'm trying to accommodate you. That’s the best I can do.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think what -- I think it's for documents ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- as I understand the issue? So when it comes to a question of documents, we'll sort it out, either have her come up or have whatever.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We'll sort it out.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I appreciate that, and believe me, the numbers -- the system has been very good, but it's not simple. I need help. But we will help for that, and you can refer to the document, and when you refer, we'll find it. We may take a minute, may take five minutes, but we're all here for the same objective, I hope. Is that okay?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So perhaps we can have the witness sworn and get started.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Well, I think it's just, we're trying to get the story out. I -- there's -- you can't really object to her telling ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, we will try not to waste time, and if we work together on that, I'm sure we'll get to the end.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is there a problem with the questioning, Ms. Belton, or are you okay with the way it's going? Is there a problem?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if you could take a note, that’s the sort of thing you're welcome to do. Maybe that question can be dealt with. But if you can make notes, those are the sorts of things that would be helpful to the Commission when you get to do your questioning. We can fill in those blanks.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're going to take a break, and I'm going to consider whether we're going to clear the hall. So I'm going to take a short break and when I come back I'll decide if we're going to clear the hall. Five minutes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, well, thank you for that indulgence. I've decided, hesitant, but I've decided not to clear the room at this point. I did notice there's a significant group that is I think doing its best to comply. I'm -- but I am concerned. I mean, this is -- I firmly believe this is an important process and that it should be, as much as possible, respected, so we'll go ahead. I hope not to have more issues. So we were about to turn to some of the questioning. Are you okay to continue?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So the first is the Government of Canada, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We've had to deal with a lot of documents, you can imagine, Miss.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the convoy organizers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not sure we should be talking about character assassinations; rather, there are some issues (audio skip) raised. I think let's try and not inflame things and take one step at a time. So you'd like to defer at the moment, and maybe I can hear from ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that should not be a problem. So let's go through the rest of the roster and then we can get to that. Okay. So next, the Ottawa Residents.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, now, there is ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is a process. You speak through me. Ms. Scharf, I understand your point, but this is cross-examination so I tend to give a little latitude. So if that -- I think that question is within that latitude.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a reminder, you’re out of time so if you could try and ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I had a note “10 minutes”, so.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a few more minutes but please keep it to the point.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, and I think it's turning into a debate, which I don't think is constructive.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, next, call on the Ottawa Police Service.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police. You're still on mute.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're still on mute.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the CCLA, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, so you're going to have to wrap up, please.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next it's Ms. Belton's representative, so do you have any questions or has everything been covered?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. We’re just ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- through me, sorry. So sir, with respect --- direction that this witness is limited with respects to relevance and materiality I think if you gave a direction that this witness is limited with respect to giving evidence regarding the timeframe up to and including, say, after the EA was no longer invoked, I believe that would be appropriate, sir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, because I think as is probably obvious, we’re dealing with the declaration of the Emergency Act and so on.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There may be things after. Okay.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Again, it’s turning into a discussion. If it relates to events that occurred before the invocation, that can be relevant. I don’t know if it is but ultimately we’re concerned about the declaration of the emergency and the organization of the convoy, and its function or what happened in Ottawa. And if it’s related to that then tell us what it is and we can then think about whether we go to the documents. But I don’t know what we’re talking about.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe you could just -- it may be helpful if you sort of summarize what it is that you’re trying to give as in terms of the story ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and we can leave the documents. They’re in the record and, if need be, we’ll turn them up. But ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s Keith Wilson’s witness statement; is that ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- what you’re referring to?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So is that what you want to refer to because that -- or is there a need for that?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, let’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, if you could turn up the witness statement and let’s see where we go with this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So which page are you looking at?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Second paragraph, page two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so -- and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, the witness -- it’s -- it should come from the witness, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what is -- what are you trying to -- why are you referring to this comment, then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So anything further you’d ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What page are you referring to?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I’m speaking to the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe somebody can help her to find that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As I understand, it’s a notice ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. Okay, come on up. Let’s just get it done. We’re her to move it along and all the help we can get.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to speak into ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Is there anything further you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that was the last question. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that's relevant to what we're doing here, but I'll let it go, but, please, we've heard your message, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have just one little -- trying to understand my notes, so it shouldn't be long. You talked about ADT Canada asking you or contacting you about Windsor, and I just I -- my note isn't clear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what did they ask you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I thought there was something -- and I have a note about slow roll.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So this call was from ADT Canada someone, and it had to do with the Ambassador Bridge, was it, or was it the Bluewater?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was Ambassador? And you said slow roll, so would this have been before the Ottawa -- the 28th? Or just trying to get the date of the call.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You said slow roll.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I'm just trying to understand also about your pickup truck in Ottawa. You said you turned around when you got here and went -- and because you had a pickup truck you could turn around and go to Arnprior I think it was?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have to be fair.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So then you picked up that convoy, went into Ottawa and you described that and so on. Did you then stay there? That's what I'm trying to get at.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just to close up on this, and when you would come back, where would your pickup truck go? Would it become part of a convoy again either on ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's what I was trying to understand.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not -- I'm just trying to get the information. I'm -- okay, so that ends I think for the day, and it's a long day today and the good news is it'll be a long day tomorrow. So 9:30 please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I apologize for the slight delay. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I can just interrupt, you have a tendency to speak rapidly. So if you could try and moderate it, that would be helpful. That’s for the interpreters, obviously.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Excuse me. That video was what date? That’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, sorry. Excuse me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think at this stage, let's hear the evidence and maybe that’s a point that can be made later? But I'm sorry. You want to also involve yourself in this?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re pretty close to the time for the morning break so I’m going to take a 15 minute break and we’ll come back and start with our list of cross-examinations.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The first up is for the Government of Canada
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think this is proper cross-examination so I’m not -- go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm going to have to get to point quite quickly. You're already over time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And next is the City of Ottawa. Am I to take it your -- you’ve no questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You're well over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. Convoy Organizers, any questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that completes the cross-examinations. I just have one question, and it's with respect to something I believe was heard earlier on. Was there an area that was allowed for protests or encouraged by either the police or your group to carry out protests, other than on Wellington Street? I heard something about near the War Museum. Are you aware of anything like that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you're not aware of an area near the War Museum that was -- that protests were allowed and were carried out?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you ever specifically ask the PLTs for an area or a manner to continue the protest?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you didn’t ask and they didn’t offer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your evidence. We're going to take the lunch break and come back in an hour with a new witness. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bon après-midi.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First up is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Hey, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just wait a moment, please. Let's try and keep it quiet, please, while we hear the evidence. This is the equivalent of a court in the sense that we have sworn evidence and we'd like to keep a proper atmosphere. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I did. But we'll get back to you after; okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine. I will concede to counsel's agreement. Okay. Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. CCLA please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is Democracy Fund/JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just a minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I just have a few short questions. Just following up on one of those, the penultimate question, you answered all of the protests across the country started organically.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
How do you know that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it's an assumption that you're ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just wondered since you made it as a statement, if you had some information.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, the -- what I wanted to ask a bit more is the 322 trucks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It wasn’t clear to me what those 322 trucks were. And by that, I mean, were those part of the convoy group you were involved with or is that total trucks?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's the "we". I'm trying to figure out ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Again, it wasn’t clear. What I'm trying to understand is, 322, is that a total truck count for the City of Ottawa, all the streets or is it those are the trucks that you had a relationship with either because they were the Western Convoy or one of your organizer’s convoys?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wouldn’t be the trucks that your group controlled?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was a -- it would include the Rideau Street ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- trucks, all of the trucks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the second thing -- I wanted to talk to just briefly about logistics and understand a bit better. Were you told when new convoys were coming in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But was that your responsibility, to deal with new convoys coming in, leaving aside how much you knew about what was coming in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that continued -- or how long did that continue where trucks were coming in and you would direct them to where to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And finally, with respect to those convoys coming in, how -- which convoys would end being involved with and which would you not be involved with, or was that sort of a hazard?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I guess I’m trying to understand, were you somewhere have an official -- how would convoys know that you will direct the convoy rather than the police, for example?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it wasn’t necessarily you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- who would guide them in?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And would the -- when you did -- or your delegates do that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- would it be with the police or -- as opposed to despite or contrary to police instructions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re going to take the morning break -- or the afternoon break. I made the same mistake as yesterday. So we’ll take the afternoon break, 15 minutes, and then we’ll come back with our final witness for today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon, Ms. Calvinho.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you, and yes, I understand about the subpoena and the protections. That’s obviously provided. And we do appreciate that it is sometimes challenging to deal with the documentation. I think you would have a lot of sympathy from the parties and the Commission counsel so I understand that. And we’ve been very accommodating, as required, and certainly, if there’s something, please provide some sort of an indication and we can sort it out.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He has to be sworn.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
First for cross-- examination, the convoy organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure that was a question so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You'll get ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm going to stop this. You'll get -- hey, hey. Please, could you ask -- have him -- I'm going to take a break while you're removed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Unfortunate event, but if we can now get back and complete the -- today's proceedings. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the CCLA.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now the Democracy Fund or Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. And now I apologize, I've forgotten your name, counsel for Mr. King. Any questions? Anything that concerns you about the documentation or you want to put to your client?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Sorry, I forgot your name, so I apologize for that. Okay. Any re-examination? No? Okay. Well, that completes your evidence, Mr. King, and you are free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that that should have been done when -- I think at the end of the examination. Now I’m not sure at this point if there’s something in particular you want to say, of course, go ahead, because it’s -- despite what some may say, we’re just trying to get at the bottom of all of this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if it’s any consolation, there’s been evidence about the various Convoy participants on all these issues and there are more witnesses coming. We’re just trying to put out a whole picture. I’ll weigh it all at the end and the evidence will be there and I’m going to make some findings and prepare a report
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But there are others coming. So with that, I will adjourn for the day. We have a big day tomorrow. It will be -- I think it will go a little later even than most. I hope we’ll have no difficulties tomorrow because that just slows up the process. But we’ll be back tomorrow at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Well, we’re going to start the day a little differently today. Rather than have one of the convoy or protester witnesses, we’re going to start with a Commission counsel presentation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. So that will have detail on all the movement of funds. Now, are we in a position to move to the next phase?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if understand correctly, you’re seeking to have a transfer from the convoy organizers of five minutes to your final submissions or presentation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I don’t know if that’s been discussed with the convoy organizers or not.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I see convoy organizers’ counsel’s just walking in. So that obviously hasn’t been discussed so we can address it when we get to the point of cross-examination if it hasn’t been sorted out before then. And I can assure you, we won’t be shortchanging the witness. We’ve been quite understanding about the situation for witnesses who are not represented by counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So that’s a similar -- it’s sort ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, the same response.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re -- we will, of course, endeavour to make sure it’s fair to the witness and we obtain the evidence we need.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry. Can you try and either not talk or keep it down, please? And Mr. Dichter?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're translating all of this, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- please slow down. It's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You know, you get excited, and that's okay, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- try and get excited with a slow speech.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What was the date of the tweet we just saw?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you’ll come back to that one document you wouldn’t ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The normal is your lawyer will do it at the end. And that’s when I would do it., I mean, unless there’s any particular reason to do it now, I would suggest we do it at the end which is the normal.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And how long do you propose to be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Five minutes of some leading questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are there any objections or concerns? NA
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, I denied the right to -- the application have his counsel lead the evidence. And now he seeks to have five minutes to do that. There may be some additional at the end and so that’s what is being proposed. And they would be leading questions for five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Read the Rule, yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I guess there’s some uncertainty in the Rule. What a surprise. So I think what I’ll do is I will let the questions go, and if there’s a problem we’ll deal with it. But I think it’s preferable to get that evidence out so before the parties do their cross-examination.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you like. So far you haven't been leading, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
-- try avoid being leading and that makes it easier.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think your time is up, Mr. Karahalios, so I'm going to ask you to wrap up this part of your questioning. You asked for five minutes; I've already given you much more.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, sir.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure you're here to give evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we're going to close this off at the moment. I gave you a question; you've done more, so we'll ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- put off. We can deal with further questioning at the end, if need be, okay? So we'll take the morning break and come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now we're ready to get started on the cross-examinations. For the Government of Canada first, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, in the circumstances, I'll give you another five.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’ve been generally reasonable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. I hear your objection, I think this is cross-examination and I’ll give some latitude.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think this is just getting into argument and I think he’s answered the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He asked you about trucks removed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So let’s try and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You answer the question and we’ll get through this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He’s asking the question. The witness will get a chance to answer.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just it -- just, I think it was ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- a question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next we have the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- listen to the question. It was a pretty simple question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let's see where it goes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've been -- you're way over time. I thought you were just going to put a document to him, and now you're going into a -- you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, I didn’t hear you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're absolutely correct, and I -- you're not the first person I've skipped in error. So maybe you want to go next?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'd say get started. We're going to be running late today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over your time, and I'm not sure this is getting anywhere.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the next is -- now is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the -- I just -- let me just find out if we're going to have much more then I think I'll take the lunchbreak. Will you have some questions for the witness, Mr. Karahalios?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Democracy Fund/JCCF, will you have questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No? And counsel for Mr. Sloly, will you have any?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Five minutes? And re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So let's try and get it through, then. Counsel for former Chief Sloly, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So the only remaining, then, is Mr. Karahalios. I may be pronouncing that wrong but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure how -- where this is going. I’m not sure that’s evidence that is relevant to the case, but maybe you can explain it to me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have a submission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think certainly what he -- I don’t believe your client can waive the privilege. I think that’s fundamental. So I’m not sure, again, what this is relevant to.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what page did you say?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Your time is up. Is there anything that you need to deal with or can we wrap this up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s perfect.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just wait a minute. There’s an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, if you're going to refer to the document I think we have to have it brought up so that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So do you have a reference for the number, or a reference number?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you have the date for it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think you've put the question. It’s been answered. The document is there. We’ll have to deal with it. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. So you are now free to go. Thank you for your testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re going to -- no, 55 minutes. We’re going to take a little bit shorter today and come back at 2:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I understand you're under subpoena, Mr. Bauder; correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have deemed that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answer may tend to incriminate him or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or any other person. And if but for the Act, or the Act of any provincial legislature, the witness would therefore have been excused from answering the question, and all of the witnesses by reason of the Act or provincial Act compelled to answer, the answers so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial, or other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than, of course, prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence. So that will be for each question and answer it's taken that you've taken the protection afforded to you under the Charter and the various statues. Okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I know you’re emotional, and that -- and that’s understandable. But if you could try and just keep ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- keep it down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You don’t have to apologize, just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The number was ALB1819.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Lots of zeros.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Bauder, you’re kind of venturing off the questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’ll get a chance at the end to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- make a statement or something. So let ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Because we want to try and get through it, because there’s another ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you do, and it’s obvious. But we’re going to try to control this; okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You actually have another 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Actually, it's 13 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, it's a little too long at this point because ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. If we could -- I could call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’d said 6 before, but.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just -- you can just wait for the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I’ll call on the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police, the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re on mute. Or we can’t hear you. So.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, he’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- on Zoom, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He’s Zooming in.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re high tech here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you can try and -- you're eager to answer, I understand, but if you could wait til the question's finished to answer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down for the translator. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could we -- particularly, Counsel, I don’t want to set off things, and I think it's important that at a minimum, Counsel, give the example.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you did nothing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm just having some trouble with the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
With the crowd and counsel, but that’s my problem. Don’t worry. You're giving your evidence. Everything's okay from your perspective.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am not sure how this is relevant with ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What are you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, it's firstly, it was a question within his time period, and he was asked how he felt. I'm not sure what that adds, if that's your point, in terms of the evidence, but in any event, I was going to give him, as he's unrepresented, an opportunity to say something at the end. So I think all this has done is do it in advance. But what exactly is your point you want it, what, struck from the record, or do you want a further opportunity to cross-examine? What is it you're after?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want to do further cross-examination, you stopped at the end. I was prepared -- I didn't cut you off. If you want to come back up, you can go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. That's -- any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Bauder, you're free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're -- yes, you are. This is -- you're completed your examination.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you'd like to make a statement, that's fine. You can have it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just he ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe you could just sum it up for us.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I'm not sure this is - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt you for a minute?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, it’s a little too much of a story. I’m not sure how much it helps us. I understand your unity ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But that’s fine. I think your message has been given. And we’ve seen ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We’re going to adjourn for the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand she’s under subpoena. So just confirming that. Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just slow down a bit, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
For the translators.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Take your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe I’ll take a short break at this point, just five minutes to stretch our legs. And we’ll come back in five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you for that indulgence. Now we can run through to the end, I hope, and adjourn before it -- it'll be late, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we're at the stage of adjourning for the day, and I think it's welcome for everybody, so we'll come back tomorrow at 9:30. I have a -- you have question, yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Pardon me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think -- I don’t think there actually was any permission given. What was pointed out is the rule does not prevent you from speaking to the witness, as long as you don’t speak about any of the evidence. So -- and that’s my understanding of the rule. So you don’t need my permission, unless you want to speak to her about her evidence, in which case, that’s a different matter.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don’t think that’s contemplated by the rule. I’m sorry, anyone want to pipe in on this? I’m sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think lawyers have to be aware of the rule. It’s basically the same rule as applies to in courts, and you can’t speak about cross- examination on the evidence. You can prepare, but that’s a different matter. And the line, obviously, we rely on lawyers to respect that, obviously. I’m sure it’s the same in Alberta. Kind of.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re all one country. Okay. So until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I’d suggest we deal with it after the witness has finished, unless there’s an urgency. And I think perhaps just have you advised the parties of the issue?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. It might be worthwhile, and I don’t know if you can do it by email or you want to do it orally, but just give a heads-up to the parties so that when we get to it, everybody will be -- have thought it through.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If that’s okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And we can deal with that a bit later, but I’d suggest we complete this and move onto that issue once we complete Ms. Lich. Okay. So unless there’s anything further, we can start the cross-examinations, and I believe the first is the Government of Canada. I can, but go ahead. It is not a problem with me, so go ahead, Mr. Champ.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, excuse me a minute. Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I am not sure it's very helpful in the sense that I'm not sure what you're getting at. She can neither confirm nor deny because she has no knowledge.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To say can she -- has she any, I mean, any -- the question's relating to whether she received communications about any of this, it may have some relevance, and she's answered that. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I mean, I -- you can go ahead, but you're ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think it would be helpful to know if she received the email before you question her on it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Democracy Fund, JCCF, Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And now for the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Only if you make the commitment to have a focused questioning so that it’s useful use of the break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take the break early, then. Take 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have one question. You were taken to a chart and told there were charges for violent offences?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know who was charged? Do you know the four people?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, the four people?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don't know if it's someone you know or someone you don't know?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and you're now free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And thank you very much. Okay. So that -- we move onto the next, which is the -- I believe the panel of two witnesses and there's an issue to be discussed about the, as I understand it, the relevance of that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So maybe we'll deal with that now, if that's agreeable?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine, just identify yourselves because it's the same, the reporters have to know who's speaking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You mean they weren’t on the original list?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any other counsel wish to make submissions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m just canvassing first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I take it you’re supporting the proposal -- or the objection?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any other submissions in support? Okay. And then as I understand it, the Convoy organizers are opposing?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And any other party is opposing the application?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any other who are opposing or, rather, supporting the motion? Yes, Commission counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you’d like to add something? Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s -- you’re getting into argument now.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’re dealing with whether or not there’s relevance to the evidence that’s being tendered.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, Mr. Migicovsky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Commission counsel, you wanted to provide some context? And among other things, I don’t know what the witnesses are going to say, so to what degree is it -- is this one of the witnesses that we saw the video about or is this something different? Maybe -- go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So -- okay. That was a red herring, then. Okay. I was worried that you were -- this was the same person.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Commission counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any further submissions by anyone? I’m being very generous about submission time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But don’t repeat, though.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I always worry when someone says “I’m going to emphasize”.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just give me a moment. Okay. I’m going to allow the panels to go ahead. On Mr. Migicovsky’s first point about whether the information is relevant, I think the -- there is certainly evidence that may be, I haven’t heard it, but may be relevant as to the use of the Emergency Act, and in particular, the notices that are -- have apparently -- there’s lots of evidence, were circulated as recently as this morning. So the use of the notices, the setting up of exclusion zones, is squarely within the mandate. And therefore, I think the information may well be relevant. I also note that there has been evidence of police as to the fact that the protest was ended in an orderly manner and quite properly. I believe Insp. Beaudin talked about that. I believe another witness, maybe Chief Bell talked about the fact it was ended without burning of police cars, et cetera. So the manner of ending is relevant, and this may go to some degree. I think the -- and there was also cross- examination in -- I believe of Insp. Bernier, as to the arrangements that were made and the processing, how the processing was done, the -- so there is evidence about how the operation, if you like, was carried out, including how the detainees were treated and the system arranged. Now, having said that, the impact and relevance diminishes to a point where it’s -- it in fact becomes questionable as we get further along, further from the use of the Emergency Act notice, et cetera, because this Commission is not mandated to deal with arrests that were or were not done in accordance with the appropriate police procedures and so on. That’s a matter for similar criminal courts, if there have been issues in that regard. So I think it moves quite -- well, I would say of marginal relevance, if any, to what the Commission is doing when you talk about the actual manner of arrest, as opposed to what I’ve described that is more squarely in the relevance. So having said that, I’m not prepared to accept that it is -- that these -- this panel is not relevant. I expect the accent will be on what I have set out is clearly relevant and what’s related to that. And obviously there will be some context. Context has been provided by other witnesses sometimes. And while I may hear that, it may not become an issue that I have to deal with. Now, on the second point, the procedural fairness point, I have some concern about that, because obviously it is, as I’ve said many times, and I’m going to repeat it, the public wants to get to the bottom of this, and that means fair to all parties. And I am concerned that there may be unfairness to the -- to some of the parties. In particular, the police forces, whether it be the OPP or the OPS, or in fact, to former Chief Sloly, or anyone else. So fairness is front and center in my concerns, and if after we hear this evidence there’s a need to call further evidence, we’ve said we would sit evenings, and we will sit Saturdays. We will get to -- get the information that the public needs to know and that will lead to a fair treatment for all. That’s -- I guess that’s my ruling. Now, if you want something more formal in writing, I’m happy to do it. But I sense the panel is here waiting, and we want to get -- we all want to make sure we fully use our Friday. I thought I’d give my ruling now. If anybody wants it in writing and expanded upon, I’m happy to do that. But I think that sets out, really, my thinking in a general way. And with respect to whether we will have another panel or another witness, I think that’s something we can deal with after the evidence is heard. With respect to the videos, I’m a bit concerned about the videos. I haven’t seen them. And I would hope we’re not going to get too far afield to what’s relevant to the issues I need to deal with. I don’t mean to minimize any issues about how an arrest was carried out. Those are obviously significant to individuals involved, including the officers, but that’s not central. In fact, is more anecdotal, I think, in terms of what this Commission is dealing with, but it is part of the record so far, some of the evidence relating to that. So that’s my ruling. And we can proceed with the panel, I believe. And I will expect the parties, if there are concerns about the ruling and you wish it in writing, please notify Commission Counsel. Well, it will be in writing because it will be in the transcript, but expanded upon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, we’ll take five minutes then to set up the panel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think it’s the Ottawa Police Service, is going to go first. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. Don’t worry, that’s questioning, cross-examination. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please, if I could ask everyone to not act out, that would be appreciated. We're trying to keep this civilised. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Given the late disclosure, apparently, could you make sure you tell us beforehand what it is we’re going to just so we can -- if there are problems, we can outline them in detail.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure about that question. Let’s be a little careful with how we do that, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s see what the -- if it’s just a photo of the -- of Ms. Hope-Braun kneeling -- is that all it is?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m not sure what the prejudice would be, but let’s go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And can you, for the record, explain why it is these things weren’t disclosed till last night?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry. I wasn’t -- maybe I missed it. Are you saying you didn’t get this video till yesterday?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, let’s have a look at it and see where we go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
All right.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Firstly, this is -- this is a little bit leading, which I don’t think you’re entitled to do. Number two, I’m not sure this is a witness who can talk about police tactics and I think now you’re getting into something that’s a bit unfair. So I mean, you don’t have much time. In fact, you’re -- you have one minute left, so you might want to use it more appropriately.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure this is really very relevant to what I have to decide, how the arrests were actually carried out and whether there were ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- no complaints. Now, if that’s how you want to use your last minute, I’m prepared to have a look at it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Once again, that’s leading for a phase you’re not supposed to be leading your witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you want to ask, the way to ask I’m happy to assist. It’s you ask, “How did it, how was it that, what proceeded after you were arrested? Where were you taken?”
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re way over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Almost out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you still have a minute or two.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Democracy Fund, JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Before I go to Commission Counsel, Ms. Bath-Shéba van den Berg, normally, the Convoy would be last because you're the ones who -- they're your witnesses, so -- which is why you can't cross-examine, but normally, you'd gone last, so since I took you or you were taken out of order, I'll give you a little more time if you would like to wrap up. Pardon me?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A short wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And, Commission Counsel, any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for your testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we're going to be able to take the lunch break for an hour, and we'll come back with our next witness. Is it -- come back at 2:10.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you hear us, Mr. MacKenzie?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good. Well, we're ready for your testimony, so we're going to have you sworn, and I see you have Counsel here, so let's -- should we first swear the witness and -- okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate him or tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or any person but for the Acts you've invoked. Okay? Is that adequate?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So, Mr. MacKenzie, we're ready to go. Commissioner Counsel, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we'll take a five- minute break and then come back. (TECHNICAL ISSUES/AUDIO ISSUES)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry. Your counsel had an objection.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think maybe the question wasn’t that well framed, but the quote speaks for itself. He could ask whether he agrees with the quote, is on the RCMP letterhead. I mean, it’s really not much further than that, I take it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now we’ll go with first the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Government of Canada?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is it going to be a while? Should this be put off til a little later?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So maybe, if you're agreeable, you can complete your examination, subject to this video, and we can slot you in a little bit in maybe 10 minutes, whenever this is sorted out?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it's now available.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I think it's the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry, there's -- if you just hold on a moment, your counsel is standing up here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you have to be more clear. Social media is something we should be looking into, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if you could try and rephrase the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the Democracy Fund, JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That seems to be a popular person. Mr. Foda, I guess it's your turn. You seem to have collected a lot of support.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, we're going to take the afternoon break and then we'll come back with our final witness of the day and of the week.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Simply for the record, I'll refer to the statement that’s in the record and the fact that you are under subpoena from the Commission, and as a result, it will be deemed that you've objected to each answer to seek the protection of the relevant Evidence Act, okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next, we have the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, just hold on one ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe you can just ask the question without ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- reference to the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to be wrapping up pretty soon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, if I could call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. For the Democracy Fund, ACCF, and Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You won’t hear many complaints, I think, from the hall on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But of course, you're entitled to your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure you got much from the witness about the Parliamentary ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is going to be lots of witnesses that'll come ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- later. I mean ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you can use your time, but...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Where -- what's the evidence of that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm just trying to understand where the evidence is for that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure I understand the link at all in the way you describe it, but the record is clear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we'll leave it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, it was more of a leading question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was pretty leading.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. You’re free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ve completed the list for today, and we will come back on Monday morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. I see we have a different patch this morning. We’re moving geographically, or figuratively, I guess, to the different area of Ontario. Okay. And who is Commission Counsel this morning? (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if you could identify yourself for the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Welcome.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just slow down a bit ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think this is probably a good time for the morning break, so we’ll take 15 minutes and then come back to continue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now if I could call on the Democracy Fund to go first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I've been fairly liberal, but you're now well over your time, so you're going to have to - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you have 25 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm going to have to stop you. You're now well over your time. So if you could wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I asked you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- five minutes ago ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Miller, I got the document the first time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well let’s see what the document is, and if there’s a problem, either the witness needs time, or if counsel for Windsor has ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- an objection, we can deal with it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down for ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa. You can get started, if you’d like, and we’ll -- seems to always happen that the City of Ottawa to be at lunch time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think this is an appropriate time to take the lunch break. So we’ll take an hour and come back to continue the questioning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next up I believe is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next are the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
National Police Federation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. City of Windsor?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just ask you to go slowly when you're reading for the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, Mayor Dilkens, thank you very much for your testimony. You're free to go and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- very appreciated. Okay. Next witness. I think you have a procedural matter to deal with first?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, this might be a good time to take a break, then, if you’re going to change counsel, then. So we’ll take the afternoon break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. So first up is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is former Chief Sloly's counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, call on the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I haven't got much. I just -- one thing I'm confused about, and that arises from the videos that the -- were shown by Citizens for Freedom, and you saw the arrest of the person who was on the ground. How does that fit in? I thought you testified that there were -- they could continue to protest on the sidewalk, and this person doesn’t seem to have been on the street, and I'm trying to understand exactly -- maybe I don’t know the geography.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just remind me then again -- and I'm lost in that from my mind -- the area of control, that you call it, is -- was from the bridge to Tecumseh Road; is that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And how far is it from Tecumseh to the expressway?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So the -- and so the bridge to Tecumseh would be about a kilometre?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So about half of the Huron Church Road would be, if you like, not available on the sidewalks for protestors, but the other half would be?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the -- you talked about being at the Emergency Preparedness Committee of the Chiefs of Police and discussion there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Were there meetings of that group during this period in early February when the protests were going on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, so you weren’t a party to those meetings?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And were there discussions at those meetings about the available resources for POU units across the province?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And were those discussions, did they include what was needed for Ottawa and were there enough POU units to deal with the Ottawa situation in Ontario?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And so were you part of those discussions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. So I think that completes the evidence. Thank you for your attendance and your evidence. And we will adjourn til tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Another beautiful day in Ottawa. Okay. We have a -- let me guess; another witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could I ask you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to go a little slower for the interpreters, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Is this a good time for the morning break and we can come back at -- in 15 minutes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the morning break, come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down a bit for the translators, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. So I'd like to first call on the Government of Canada. Do you have any questions?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a couple of minutes here. You’re not near your time. I’ll look at you when you’re close to it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Questions by former Chief Sloly's counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Have they even offered?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, you’re -- you and the City of Ottawa are overdrawn, but we’ll see when we get to Ottawa. The Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
City of Ottawa?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ottawa Police Service?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Convoy Organizations?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. National Police Federation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Province of Alberta?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ontario Provincial Police?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that was, obviously, very clear evidence. Nobody seems to want to cross- examine you -- or limited, I should say. Well, thank you very much for attending. You’re free to go, and we thank you for your evidence.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So given the speedy way in which we went through this, I think we’ll take an hour and nine minutes for lunch today. So we’ll come back at 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Leschied?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, Mr. Leschied is under subpoena, and I deemed that -- I will deem that the witness has objected to answer each and every question on the ground that his answers may tend to incriminate or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any other person, and if but for the Acts invoked, the witness would -- or this Act, the witness would therefore have to have been excused from answering the questions, then although the witness is by reason of this Act, or the federal and provincial Act compelled to answer, the answers so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial or any other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than a prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence. So is that adequate then?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. With that introduction, I think we can proceed with the examination. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. First, the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You certainly can ask. What’s the relevance of his business and the quality of the materials?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So exploring on the business area. Is that okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is going to be pretty well the end. You're now up at the limit of your time, so you're going to have to be brief.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. But that'll have to be it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Forty-nine (49).
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you can ask him about it, but there’s only so much he can say, so let’s ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, let’s take it one question at a time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Citizens for Freedom, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Cede to whom?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, okay. Thank you. City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So it’s Mr. Leschied’s counsel. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure where you’re going with this, the Mayor whether he knew about Chris Sky.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could be helped to understand how this is going to help the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure that helps the Commission, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Are you giving evidence about what the municipal ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I mean, I don’t know that there’s any evidence about this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, and he said -- and he said he was speculating and then ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you said something about the complaint process, which is what I was curious about. There’s -- I don’t believe there’s evidence about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It might help if you establish they’re the same protestors that were doing it, which may well be, but I don’t know.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you can help us on why this video is being played for this witness. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Because I would like to define where the the exclusion zone was, and how the crowd was behaving, how the police were interacting.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you've --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD And actually ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD --- I did receive 2,000 pages of disclosure about 24 hours ago, so this was the one thing that we asked that be submitted. I did provide it to counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe you could start by asking him how he knew what the exclusion zone was and go into that, but I'm not sure showing a video is going to assist. What's the date of this video? And we don't know who took it, and it's obviously during a period he wasn't there. So I'm not sure how that can all be done. MS. LANI ROUILLARD Well, I think it's identifiable to this incident, and I believe it provides geographical information that perhaps could contradict previous testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I'm not sure. We don't -- do we know when this video was taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was -- m'hm. Sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And -- so when was it taken? MS. LANI ROUILLARD I believe it was taken on the 13th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And you could start by asking him if he was there on the 13th when this video was taken. MS. LANI ROUILLARD He was not, no.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think the video should've been put to someone who could speak to it. MS. LANI ROUILLARD The video -- the thing is that there was double the evidence sent out the other night, so we went through it all, and this was the response to the one -- to the thousand, well, two thousand pages I received. Because it puts the exclusion zone into context and it contradicts previous testimony.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, but you are counsel to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- gentleman, you're not a party. MS. LANI ROUILLARD No.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I'm having some trouble with this. So I'm sorry, you can ask how he knows the exclusive -- the exclusion --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- zone and he can explain what it is, but I'm not going to allow the video to go to this --- MS. LANI ROUILLARD Okay. Tell us about the perimeter. When you did a perimeter walk around, what -- tell me what you saw? The police earlier -- I’m going to clarify this first. The police earlier had stated that they were clearing certain areas, and there were areas that were under their control. And the question I have, and the reason I want this video for it, is because I want to know, is the corner, the southeast corner of Tecumseh and Huron Church Road part of the exclusion area, to your knowledge?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Just -- I’m just trying to understand. You say you know the exclusion zone. How do you know that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you don’t know, you just listened to the testimony yesterday?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you didn’t really know? You’re just speculating?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
From listening to the testimony here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There were social medias educating you on the exclusion zones?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then just a question, you were there for a few days, evenings rather. Were -- is it news to you, or did you only find out the day that there were plants shutting down and people getting laid off because of the bridge?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that didn’t concern you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So more impact was not a concern to you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. You’re free to go. I think we’ll take the morning break now. Thank you, counsel, for your assistance. So we’ll take the morning break. Or the afternoon break. I keep saying the morning break. I’m sorry. Obviously I only work half days. So we’ll come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you slow down for -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the interpreters?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, the first up is the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the -- are the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So Mr. Rejman, any questions to follow up?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a question here?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Well, that completes the business for today, so we can adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I think tomorrow will be a longer day, so people should come prepared to stay longer than normal. So look forward to seeing you all back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay, so we have a new witness I expect this morning. Who is on for the Commission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning, Mayor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So first up is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, we can.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you identify yourself, for the record. You may have but it didn’t come across.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next are the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Mayor Willett, do you want to add anything? We’re done the cross-examinations. I’m just going to ask for -- whether there’s any re-examination by the Commission Counsel. So I’ll let the re-examination go and then I’ll give you a chance to add anything, if you’d like.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that’s it. Do you want to add anything before you head back west?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that's fine. We're here to get at the bottom of what happened, not only in Coutts, but across. Can I just ask you one thing following up on you're all in favour of protests, and you'd mentioned about the land that had been set up to continue protesting and it wasn't used until after the blockade was cleared.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did I hear you correctly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And they continued to protest there for some time you said?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if it was the same group that had blockaded that continued to protest there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming. It's appreciated. Your evidence was appreciated. You're free to go back to the cold.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we're going to take the morning adjournment, the morning break, and come back with a new witness, so we'll take 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don't see a problem.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Good afternoon; and thank you for adjusting our schedules. That’s very accommodating. I understand a witness is willing to go ahead today out of order. It’s Mr. Freeman, I think. And counsel ready?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe we’ll take the afternoon break now for 15 minutes and come back and continue with the examination of this witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think first up is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the CCLA. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next the Ottawa Residents Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Saskatchewan?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Democracy Fund, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The CLA/CCDL?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination? Okay. Well, I just have a couple of quick questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just in terms of the demerit system, you talked about the problem that the regulation of the trucks and the -- their CVOR is provincial.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there no mechanism for transferring demerit points from one province to another if a vehicle from another province, a truck, incurs offences of some sort?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I’m trying to understand what the problem was because of trucks from outside of Ontario. You’d mentioned that was a problem, and I’m not understanding it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It does and it doesn’t. I would expect the consequences are probably fair similar from one province to another if there are an accumulation of offences?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I understand that, but I think I also understood you to say Ontario didn’t have that power, either, without going through charges and et cetera, so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess that’s -- I might not agree in the sense that you have the same oversight. You’re supposed to supervise and charge them and make sure that they’re behaving in the same way an Ontario carrier would.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I understand that. Now, one of the things I wanted to also understand is the emergency regulation in Ontario. It was -- it provided powers with respect to the licences, the CVOR. Isn’t that correct?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, is the -- what’s the process there? Is there -- is it a charge to which they will then have to go to Court and they have a right to appeal and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s suspension immediate, which is the difference with the process of ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the emergency order, you said at one point that there was no provision with respect to tow trucks in Ontario’s order.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. So there was nothing in that in the emergency order in Ontario?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you know if that had -- if your Ministry had requested that that be included?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do you know if anyone else requested, any other Ministry or police requested?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thanks very much for your testimony, and thank you for accommodating the Commission by switching. That’s much appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So we are complete for today and we will come back tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we hope to -- well, it’ll be a fairly long day tomorrow again, but nothing new there. Adjourned till tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Just before we start, I just want to give a bit of a message as to the events of yesterday. As many of you know, we had to interrupt the hearing yesterday because our senior counsel, Gabriel Poliquin, suddenly became indisposed. He was seen by medical professionals and his episode was likely nothing serious. So he’s expected to make a quick recovery after a few days of recuperation and will be back with the Commission next week. He wishes to thank all who have reached out to him with messages of support, and it’s very appreciated by him, and, of course, by the Commission. So with that brief introduction and reassurance, we can go on to the next witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Right up here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Mr. Degrand, if I could just ask that you slow down a bit because it's all being translated, so your -- especially when you know what -- the area you tend to talk a little fast, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Maybe it's ALB1868 maybe?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well I think we can take the morning break at this point. So we’ll take 15 minutes and come back to proceed with the primary examination and cross- examination. So 15-minute break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First I’d like to call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I don’t think you’re done.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- on my count, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I do appreciate your honesty with this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I have you having another five minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just so you know.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Another -- well, let’s see. No, another four minutes; sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the JCCF, and yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you’ve gone over your time, just -- so if you could wrap up pretty soon, I think you’re out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Absolutely
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next, if we could call on the Ottawa Coalition of the Residents and Businesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next on the -- Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the Government of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And next, I’ll call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- if you could try and - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit for the translators, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just on that, I have a couple of questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just on those -- the equipment you acquired, and I may have missed it in my notes. Did you -- had you arranged or secured the operators for all that equipment? I didn’t get that note.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I know it was a concern.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So that was a bit still a work in progress ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but you had ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You had started and working it out.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And another question, I’m just going back to the 9.1 request that was made on February 3rd, for -- that’s the request to move additional officers to Alberta; and that was granted, and we saw that letter.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
When was that terminated? Or how does it -- when did it end; do you know?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it was not formally rescinded, but your understanding is they went back about 13th or 14th. Would that be after the operation in Coutts; would that make sense to you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then you were taken to the request by Ottawa, or to move officers to Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Would it be fair to say that when you were requesting officers from British Columbia, you would hesitate to send officers to Ottawa, or is -- those two separate, totally distinct, or would you weigh that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I’m asking if before the 14th ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- in other words, you were asked is there any reason you wouldn’t have sent officers ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- earlier and, I’m just asking and it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I may be wrong, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- it seems common sense to me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then you talked about the Critical Infrastructure Defence Act, and I’m trying to understanding a bit. That’s a pretty -- gives it a lot of broad power, as I understand it; is that fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it doesn’t have to be invoked; it just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then -- this may be the last one. I’m just going through my notes, I apologize.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That you mentioned something about -- and I think it was maybe February 13th, but I’m not sure, a request for Reservists to be used, I think, to operate equipment. Did you ever get an answer on that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And maybe I’ve got it wrong, but I thought in that note there was a suggestion that he would look into it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That was my question; whether after looking into it, anything further came.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Because it was the looking into it that I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- didn’t know whether ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Okay. Well, those are my questions. Thank you very much for attending, and I understand you’re going back to the cold.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But not much we can do about that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. You’re free to go. So we will have a long lunch today, an hour and three minutes. So we’ll be back at 2 o’clock and continue with yesterday’s witness. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you try and slow down a bit again? I’m sorry to interrupt, but it’s the interpreters.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt for a moment?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I just want to check on the witness. Do you want a break? This is going to be, I'm afraid, long, so the question is, do you want a break? You could have two breaks or we can keep going until you signal.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You've got endurance. That’s good.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, certainly the interpreters do. So I will -- we'll take a 15-minute break and then we can come back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. First, I’d like to call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
How are you doing for time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Not more.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it would actually be the 11th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Late on the 11th.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition of Residents. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think there’s a context here. So don’t mix the timelines, so...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to wrap up. Your time is up. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have 20 minutes, yeah, and you started 20 minutes go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well I’m not sure the absence of people, but I will give you a couple of minutes. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It was, and I’m giving you a little more time. So go ahead. It’s just there are a lot of people, so I’m trying to make it work. I’m sorry, but that’s the way it goes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that he’s answered that, and that’s not a fair representation of what he said. So next I’d like to call on counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Convoy Organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure what the relevance is as between the -- whether they're -- he got along or didn’t get along. I'm not ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that’s probably where it's appropriate, given this witness is not familiar with the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, if -- you can ask him the question whether he knows what either of them were thinking. I'll let that, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, if I could call on the CCLA?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next if I could call on the CCF, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
My guess is it must be ONT5127.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you're out of your time, so you can wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Windsor Police Service?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you slow down a bit for the interpreters, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the City of Windsor. Still okay?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you go a little slower again, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to make it quick, because ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you’re out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, but -- sure. Make it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to the point.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Government of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, the CLA/CCDL.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The National Police Federation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Ontario representative?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I believe I asked ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the National Police Federation ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Unless I fell asleep on that one.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Wouldn't be the first time. I've missed people before, but usually they speak up so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If you have the strength, there's just a couple of questions I'd like to ask you. As you know, I'm -- this Commission is concerned with the Declaration of the Emergency and but also can make recommendations on the Emergency Act and presumably dealing with public order emergencies. And I guess I'm interested in views you may have as to knowing as you do what happened in Ottawa, what happened in Windsor, whether you might have some comments or suggestions, and in particular, on how or whether there should be more coordination on -- in areas where there is clear overlap, such as border crossings, where the impact, if you like, is much broader than Ontario, it's a federal, or Ottawa where, as we know, the impact certainly was greater on the federal government than the Parliamentary Precinct. And leaving aside whether it was properly declared an emergency, which is something I have to deal with, are there things in -- do you view aspects of coordination in particular or other aspects of the Act that might be reviewed?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If I could push you a little bit on the -- an aspect that I'm interested in, which is the coordination, and we've heard about the coordination in Windsor that was very effective, police, and messaging from the City, from all of the parties. And that messaging -- or the coordination in Ottawa does not seem to have been as fluid at the police level. I think we’ve heard evidence about that, nor at the political level. And I think we’ve heard about that. Is there something -- should there be a process or a protocol for such events that involve the different orders of government in such events? A protocol, or a best practices, or something?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And do you have views on whether any recommendations regarding unified command and, if you like, drawing on expertise, which I think is what was described in Windsor, should be made by this Commission?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just pursuing that a bit, with the Police Services Board, I seem to recall from your testimony, there’s something being looked at in terms of the Police Services Act or a committee. And I’m just wondering, given the cross-examination you had, but also the evidence here of, let’s just say the issues with respect to the information the Police Services Board had, is there -- do you think there’s room for reform on that or in that area?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That was going to be my next question. Are there findings from this Commission in respect to what happened? Because obviously there’s dispute at this point, which is going to have to be sorted out. That is something that can be -- could be useful to the work the Ministry is doing?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And one last question, and that deals with the Emergency Acts as such. Is there room for, or should there be room for coordination between Emergency Acts, because we hear about what Ontario’s Emergency Act can do, what the federal could do, what triggers one, what doesn’t trigger the other, and obviously in this case, the Emergency Act of Canada, I guess, is 40 years old, or 30 some years old. So is there room for coordination or is that something that you don’t think should be pursued or looked into?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you very much. And thank you for your patience, your staying late, and for coming back after yesterday’s failure to complete your examination. So you’re free to go. We’re now not early, but we’re finished for the day, and we’ll adjourn until Monday morning at 9:30. And I expect next week will be longer days. Again, the same sort of days we’re having this week. So prepare yourselves accordingly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. J’espère que tout le monde a eu une bonne fine de semaine. I hope everyone enjoyed the weekend. So I understand this morning we have a presentation of an overview report. Is that...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you slow down for the interpreters, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And the parties will find that document, the overview report, useful for determining who they should be questioning, as we go through the various departments, because for obvious reasons, the amount of time for cross-examination is limited for each of the parties. So you should be, as much as possible, targeting the departments and witnesses who are likely to have the answers to the questions you may pose. So with that brief introduction, I call on the next witness. I think it’s a panel, as I understand it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If it's a good time for you, it's a good time for me. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we'll take a 15-minute break and come back in 15 minutes to continue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we can now start with the cross-examinations. So first I’d like to call on the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Seeing no objection, that’s fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just slow down, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re out of time, so you’re going have to do it very quickly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, rather than -- or maybe I could ask the City of Ottawa; are you going to be taking your 10 minutes, or if -- because we can do it after lunch, if you prefer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll take the lunch break. We’ll take another one of our long lunches. We’ll come back at 2 o’clock and have an hour and five minutes for lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Is there a point of clarification, I believe?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So with that clarification, City of Ottawa, please. Ready? You're okay to go, go ahead, yes? Oui?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But on condition you speak slower.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, if I could call on the Ottawa Police Service, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you're asking for more time?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, you can have a little more time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I'd like to call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next up is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You are now well out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I could call on the CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Canadian Constitution Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You can have one or two minutes. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next call on Province of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you’re now out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, the CLA/CCDL, Criminal Lawyers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I’ll call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination or reply?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony, and no -- you're now free to go, and we appreciate your coming to testify at the Commission.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we'll -- I think we'll take the afternoon break, 15 minutes, and when we come back, there's a new panel, so 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We have two new witnesses.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you please speak a little bit slower?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you slow down again, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So can we now go on with the cross-examinations for the Convoy organizers. You’re up first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Democracy Fund JCCF?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Windsor Police Service? You're ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you for coming and testifying, and we appreciate you taking the time to do so out of your schedules and you're now free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You absolutely may, but maybe, do we need the -- can the witnesses leave?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So you're free to go and you'll deal with -- I can deal with the issue. Okay, yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if I understand correctly, you'd like to have some sort of an index or some sort of an indication of what the documents are. At this stage, I'm not in a position to respond. I don't know if the Government of Canada can respond, but it's -- maybe you can provide ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I think at this stage, certainly as I did at the outset, the Counsel are encouraged to raise issues with Commission Counsel as soon as they arise, and to the degree possible, they can be addressed that way. If they can't be addressed and some relief is necessary, then you bring it to me. I think your concern has been raised. I think Commission Counsel will look into it. I do want to cycle back and point out that I have acknowledged and continue to acknowledge that it is challenging for Counsel, and certainly for Counsel for the Government of Canada, but also, Counsel for all the parties. And I think to the degree that you have frustration, I understand it, and I think at one level it is totally understandable because of the way the compressed timeline that the Commission has to operate under. So if it is possible to provide some relief in the way you describe, I think it is highly desirable, but not if it's going to mean that we won't get access to documents. And I know that's been a concern of mine that to make sure the record is as complete as possible. If there is a real unfairness, that's something I will certainly entertain, because ultimately, the objective of this Commission is to be fair and as open in the context of the constraints we're operating under. So I'd encourage you to speak to Commission Counsel if there's some way to alleviate because I know the Government of Canada obviously is a very significant player in this, as are their witnesses. So I want to be sure we do what we can to ensure the best possible analysis of their documents and listening to their witnesses. So with that, I apologise for being a little preachy, but I do understand, and we'll see what we can do. So we'll adjourn until 9:30 and, again, I expect it'll be a similar day tomorrow and probably similar days this week that'll be fairly long.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay, I understand we have a new panel of witnesses for this morning? Okay, and who are Commission Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just identify yourself for the record, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you for that update, and it's appreciated. And again, I'd simply reiterate, if there are issues please raise them with Commission Counsel as soon as they're noted so that we can address them and resolve them if there is something to be done.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So with that, we'll ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- proceed with the panel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Deputy, if you could slow down in your testimony ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- as much as possible for the translators because you tend to speed up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I know you want to get out of here and get back to work, but... (LAUGHTER)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time for the break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the morning break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s what this is.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think page 20 of the previous document, 8041, indicated that the Commissioner didn't get reached. So that may be what you're looking for.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A little further down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, yeah, you’re a bit over your time but we’ll let you go till lunch.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you figure out what’s priority in your -- in what’s remaining?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There was never a question of shortening cross-examination time. As anyone goes over, I don’t take it from anyone else, unless there’s been a -- an agreed-upon trade. If you’re willing to give up your time to the Commission, that’s -- that would be the only way you would lose it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. So we’ll take the lunch break and come back at 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. Oh, okay. We’re ready to go then. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just read a little slower, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're over your time already, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
They are the same notes, I believe as the -- every set of notes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There is just a bit of highlighting, but it's the same text as I understand it. But in any event, there are 16 other people who want to question this panel, and it's a matter of organising your exam. The ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I must say I didn't interpret when you were examining about the proceedings in Nova Scotia, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- that was not exactly relevant for this hearing.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, you're going to have to wrap up. I've been ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to -- -
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thanks. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
One minute, as the way I have the count, but sorry...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’d like to call on the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you a few minutes, but -- go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over time now.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well over time. I gave you more than five, so you're -- you've done well. Next, we'll -- I'm calling on former Chief Sloly's counsel, who generously gave up part of his time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're now three minutes over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well -- you're well over time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ll give you one minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Province of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The agreement is that discussion is not, but inputs, i.e., material that was put to the Cabinet is disclosable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I can look to the Government, but I believe so. It's just the deliberations that are not, so just to guide the witness and you in your questioning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well out of time. You've well exceeded your time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, you're over. I'll -- we'll go on to the next.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're just about of time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No -- one last question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I think it's been pretty long so far. It's a little unusual, but I think we can take a break for 15 minutes because we're unfortunately not through the list. And so I'll take the afternoon break now, 15 minutes, and then we can come back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the CCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re now out of time, so if you could wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're now -- that's not one question. You're now into more than one.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Ottawa Coalition?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, you're camera doesn't seem to be on. If -- I don't know if that's your intention. I don't have an objection if the witnesses don't. Oh, okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. I know you all want to get out of here but if -- and I know we have a witness waiting who is probably is even eager -- more eager than you to get out of here, but if I could just ask a couple of very -- just a few questions. Firstly, you spoke about the Hendon Report. And I think this if for you, Deputy Commissioner, but it seems to me odd that the Hendon Report, if you’ve looked at it, is really national in scope, and I don’t really understand why that function is being carried out by the OPP rather than the RCMP. And I realize it’s shared and OPP has -- the RCMP has input in it, but it would -- it would have been sort of my sense that that should be a national initiative. Do you have a comment on that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you, Commissioner, also, if you’d like.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think it originated from an Ontario need but developed into something ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- bigger. And I guess the follow-up question is, is there something that the RCMP produces that equivalent to the Hendon Report that updates nationally?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not seeking to criticize. I’m just -- I have a recommendation mandate and I’m trying to understand what ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- is good, what can happen, whether some changes -- so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, turning to another subject, where did the officers come from that participated in the enforcement action in Ottawa? Do you have any idea where, factually, they did come from?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, and which leads me to the next question. In the period leading -- immediately leading up to and at the time that the emergency was declared, and the actions and the -- the actions in Ottawa, what was the status of police resources available if there had been another crisis somewhere? I’m just trying to get a sense of what was the status of the police resources for regular policing, as is necessary, and to cover for some emergency, any kind, whether it's a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And would there be many POU units available for redeployment that weren't already deployed to Ottawa and to B.C. or rather to Alberta at the time? Or I just -- I don't know how many there are available.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But there's no sort of central number available that you can tell me about?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then you spoke about or you were taken to your memo or speaking notes for the IRG, and about the fact that the Criminal Code had not been fully sort of utilised and you remember those notes. I guess my question is did you make any recommendation to IRG or to Cabinet on the invocation of the Emergencies Act?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you have a view?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Which gets me to my final question. Do you have any recommendations, any suggestions as to what I should be recommending, either with respect to the relationship of the RCMP with the government, with respect to the Emergencies Act, or protests of this type?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And Deputy ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you both very much for your testimony and your perseverance in all these questions. And I understand you're not -- you're feeling a little under the weather, Commissioner, so that's appreciated that you came nonetheless.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we're going to go on to our next witness, finally. I don't know if we need a couple of minutes to change the setup. Yes, we need maybe five minutes. So we'll just take a few minutes to get the witness up and organised
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we have our final witness for the day. Can we have the witness sworn please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. First, the convoy organizers. Counsel stepped out. Maybe we should jump to the Government of Alberta instead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Convoy organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is that a promise?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, that's what I thought.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Two minutes, dead on. Okay, the Windsor Police Service please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that's -- thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Have you got the right document there?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you very much for your testimony, and for coming, and for being resilient, although it may be still Alberta time for you, which is not for us, or for most of us. So with that, you’re free to go, and with our thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we again should anticipate long days. I hope not as long as today, but -- and I’ll try and be more regimental with the time allocations, but I can’t guarantee it. Okay, thank you very much.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you slow down, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So I'd like to first call on the Convoy Organizers to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next I’d like to call on the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re actually over your time, but please wrap up as quickly as possible.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And next I’d like to call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, calling on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're now out of time, so I'm -- you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I don't know if we should take the break now and -- because there's not much time left for this witness, but I'm in your hands.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, if you're okay, we'll take the break now and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any reply?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So thank you very much for coming and testifying. You're free to go back to your retirement, and it's much appreciated that you came to give evidence today.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So next, we have, I believe, a panel. It may be preferrable that we take a short break to organise the panel; is that...? So I'll just take five minutes to do that if that's agreeable. So we'll just take a five minute break and come back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time for the lunch break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the lunch break and come back at 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So with that, we can turn to the questioning by the convoy organizers.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So maybe we can start with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and what we'll do is you can speak to the witnesses at the break, when we take the break; is that agreeable?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And we'll simply go to the Convoy Organizers after the break. Okay. So?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, you're well out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I don't know if you can wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, maybe this is a good time for the morning break, or the afternoon break. I'm back into that bad habit. It's -- so the afternoon break, we'll take 15 minutes. And during that time perhaps you won't get a break because you'll be reviewing documents.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you need more time, please indicate it to Commission staff, Commission Counsel, and we can accommodate small, additional time if needed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next call on the OPS. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, if I could call on the City of Windsor?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Government of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can, but your picture hasn’t come up yet, so I’m not sure what’s happening.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. There you are.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
In living colour, so go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next I'd like to call on the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I'd like to call on former Chief Sloly's counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I call on the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well I think you’re going to have to be fair with the evidence. I don’t think that’s the evidence. So if you want to put to him the -- what OPP testified to, you have to put the full picture.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Now on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, certainly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, we accommodate witnesses here. We’re actually quite friendly. It might not show.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We will even give you five minutes. How is that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Merci. Prenez votre temps.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could -- oh, sorry. Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well we’ll have an early night. So thank you very much for your testimony. Merci beaucoup d’être venue and you’re free to go and enjoy your evening.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Appreciate you coming. So we’ll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Nice wintery day. We're starting off with some bulk entries, I believe?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. And now, I understand we have a panel. Judging by the arrangement, I gather there are three? Okay. And Commission Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down for the interpreters, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- please? Thanks.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I guess we'll take the morning break at this point to give everyone a chance to stretch a bit. So we'll come back in 15 minutes and start with the cross-examinations.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. First, the convoy organisers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you read more slowly?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to make it quick because you're already over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’d like to call on the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’ll call on the CCF, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think this is the time for the lunchbreak. So we'll take a lunchbreak and come back at two o'clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good afternoon. The -- first up, I believe, is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, following, the Government of Saskatchewan. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go a little slower, please. Can you just go a little slower? I’m sorry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt for a minute?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to make it short because you’re out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, I’ll call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, call on the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I'll call on the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m going to maybe wade in a bit further on the last question about reforms and looking forward and ask you to go up a bit to the Emergency Act itself, in the sense that there may be debate, let’s put it this way, as to whether or not the concerns you’ve expressed today are encompassed by public order emergency, i.e. the financial impact that you’ve described. So my question is, do you have any recommendations or suggestions on the Act itself, whether clarity on that issue, assuming you believe it ought to be considered, is useful, and how that might be done, or whether your financial concerns of that type are another kind of emergency other than a public order emergency? I don’t know if you understand what I’m getting at, because it’s encompassed in one right now and there are some readings that would not encompass the financial impact such as you’ve described.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, and that’s fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, and I’m not saying there is. I’m just trying to get clarity in your position, which, biased as it is, I think it has value. And I appreciate that. And so I think that’s all I’m going to ask you. So thank you very much for your testimony, and for coming, and for taking the time to give us the finance Ministry’s view.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So maybe we’ll take a short break while we set up for the next -- it’s not a panel, I guess, but the next witness. So we’ll just take five minutes and come back once they’re organized.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Please go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
For the afternoon break time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We can take a break now, take 15 minutes, and we'll come back and continue. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's okay. I'll just step out for a few minutes. You can go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. If I could call on the convoy organizers, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the OPS, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, if you didn’t go over the same documents with each witness and focused on key, that might shorten your time, but I'll let you go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, if I could call on the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You’re now back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You are well out of time, so you’re ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the counsel for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it's better down.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
(Audio fail) lawyer, if that’s all it required, you'd normally be out of business. So - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have one minute left and so I'm just warning you that time's running out, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s a new arrangement. So I'll take it under advisement. City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Government of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
For a moment, but go ahead. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have two minutes left.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're going to have to make it your last because you're over time. So go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is your last question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any reply? No? Okay. For the record, there is none. Okay, well, that’s -- we want to thank you for coming and giving your evidence. You’re free to go and enjoy what’s left of the evening.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And thank you for your evidence. So we’re going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I expect it will be another long day, but it’s Friday so we can look forward to a weekend, some of us.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay. Commission Counsel this morning...?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow down a bit for the interpreters, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it's an exciting inquiry.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think there may have been one other, but this is -- and it may have been you, but I think it’s a good sign. So we can turn to the convoy organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Democracy Fund first. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next the Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Again, assuming that's doable. I will call on the -- well, maybe we'll take the morning break. It may be the appropriate time, and we can come back in 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if we could move to the next, which is the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next, the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The next is the OPP, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’d like to call on the NPF, National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next for the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I can call on the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. I guess nobody's taken up the offer. This is -- okay. So we're finishing a lot sooner so far. Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just for the record identify yourself, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I just have one question and it goes back to towards the beginning of your evidence. And this is before the -- I can't remember the exact date, but it would be before the first weekend.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And you said that you were preparing for what you knew and what you didn’t know ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but you also said you were preparing for what if it doesn’t go well.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I just wonder what you do to prepare for what would happen if it did not go well.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So to try and summarize, it’s to be able to kick in the decision-making ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- process ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but it isn’t something concrete such as ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- preparing physically.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So thank you very much for coming and providing your testimony. It’s very helpful and appreciated. So you’re free to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, I guess I can give you the option. We can have lunch early and come back at 1:30 or we can proceed with the next panel. What would you prefer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Unless there’s any objection, we’ll take a long lunch again today, an hour and five minutes. We’ll come back at 1:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, good afternoon. Bonne après-midi. So we have a panel of witnesses. Okay, Commission Counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And if I can just pipe in.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have a tendency to speak very quickly, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- which I’m sure is -- comes handy when you’re delivering messages to government, but if ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for here it’s useful to slow down. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There’s too much trading going on.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s worthwhile spending the time, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, the schedule has gone out the window, which is probably bad news for our panel. We’re used to staying late. I’m sure you’re also used to working late. But what I’m going to do is take the afternoon for 15 minutes and, given the time, I -- we’ll come back and I’ll be a little more flexible with the questioning in cross- examination because we have a rule here, what goes in direct, goes in cross, so I think we have to be fair. But I will be reasonably only modest, not the degree requested by some.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, no, I wouldn’t want to single anyone out. So I’ll take the break for the afternoon, 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’re ready to proceed? Okay. The Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, I’d like to call on the Province of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We won’t deduct the time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure, go ahead, a couple of minutes but don’t abuse.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you conceding it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you're now out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’d like to call on the CCF, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Canadian Constitution Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
This is the CSIS ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, it’s -- I take it there’s no objection?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And this is -- just so it’s -- it’s the public version?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Unclassified version.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to make it very quick.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re way over time already. And I’m generous, but there are limits.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Are you getting to a question or making a presentation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund and JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What is it you want? The ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s correct.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, is the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next I’ll call on the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re well over your time, so if you could wrap up, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Counsel, you're out of time, actually, over time, so you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'll allow one, so pick the best one.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is counsel for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
A very equitable arrangement. So the Windsor Police Service please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I’ll call on he Province of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’d like to call on the National Police Federation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
They’ve ceded their time to -- do we know who to?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we can ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well then, the Government of Canada doesn't get it. And they are next.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I just have a few short questions. And if you would tolerate this with me. And forgive me while I try and find them. In your drafting of a proposal and the timing for the decision by the Prime Minister, did you consider the appropriateness or desirability of scheduling a debate in Parliament, not a vote, just a debate to consult, because this, the Emergencies Act is a delegation from the Legislative to the Executive. Was that considered and discarded or was that not considered -- and any comments you may have on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I’m going to ask you this couple of questions just with respect to the national scope of the order, and I think you've addressed it -- I’ll call it one dimension that it was a national issue. But was part of that consideration the use of federal powers such as the Bank Act which are -- because of the economic measures, I guess the Deputy Minister Sabia said money is fun to his -- were those considerations on whether you would do national or limited?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Which gets me to an answer you gave, Mme. Drouin, and I’m just going to press it a bit. You said the declaration did not displace provincial jurisdictions, I think you said.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s not quite correct. Some of the provincial powers were interfered with. I’m not -- I don’t mean that negatively but that’s one of the aspects of this declaration, is it does override the provincial in certain respects.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I just wanted to direct -- for example, your dealing with Caisse Populaire, that’s -- and you’re directing Caisse Populaire; that’s provincial jurisdiction. You overrode the way federal police officers would -- could become peace officers in the province. So there were -- I don’t know. I mean I’m ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not giving you legal advice. I’m ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m raising those points and saying ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, but not the freezing of the accounts.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
M’hm.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, mais la question c’est, comment vous rendez la et si vous déplacer. Puis, l’autre exemple tu as donner c’est les GRC avais doit de devenir sans passer par le processus provincial pour devenir la paix. Puis je ne sais pas. Je demande la question. C’est juste pour comprendre la portée de l’ordonnance au niveau du partage de pouvoir.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
M’hm. So I totally understand ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I understand the intention, and maybe it’s a quibble, but I was -- just wanted to raise it because it’s -- I think the issue of federal/provincial is simply what I have -- wanted to raise with you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, no, I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m just raising these things ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- because obviously that’s part of the exercise.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it’s an odd process, to say the least. Those are all the questions I had, other than to thank you very much for taking the time, especially on a Friday, and to allow us to have extended it beyond what was planned. So thank you very much and we’ll adjourn until 9:30 on Monday morning.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay. So this morning we have a panel of witnesses. Who’s on for the Commission? (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that's great. A little shorter is appreciated. So I think we'll take the morning break, and come back in 15 minutes to start with the various cross-examinations.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Convoy organizers. Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And it’s just a compilation of documents without comments and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No comments and the full document is there? It’s not an extract?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s the full document.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s basically a compilation of a series of documents without comment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- but it -- okay, and you don’t -- I’m just -- I’m a bit confused. I thought you said there was -- there were no comments, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- it was just documents?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well I think that’s preferable. And as I understand it, there’s no objection if that’s what’s done, because obviously if it speeds up things, very much into that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what I’d suggest is why don’t you stand down and we’ll go to the next examiner, the OPP, and we can -- assuming you’ve done -- you’ve put it together, let me know and we can reschedule you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. So are the convoy organisers organised, or should I move on to someone else? Okay, there's organisation yet to be done. The Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
He already answered it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. More complicated than you thought? Okay. Well, let’s go to the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, although you could have skipped (a), (b), (c), (d). It's been testified to many times that it wasn't met but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you better get at it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, you’re now out of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So if you could wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. We’re ready to go? Okay. Convoy organizers, please. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Did you say there is a PDF with all of them on it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Why can’t we use it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That would be best, I think.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Then we avoid any issues.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’ve already taken a fair amount of your time, but I’ll be generous.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So let’s see how it goes, and I’ll try and keep an eye out for you, Mr. MacKinnon, if there’s an issue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead. Anything to speed it up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And what is page 16?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, you're way over time already ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- and this ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, so far asking a bunch of questions ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to people who have no knowledge of the document or the information ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- is ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- not -- I'm trying ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to explain something, and I know you're frustrated, and -- but that's not good use of your time. If you -- and reading into the record that exchange of texts was done days ago, and again, that's not a good use.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I'm just -- I'm trying to be patient, and I understand you want to get something done, so let's try and work together to figure out how we can navigate this is in a appropriate way.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you want to put up a picture of a licence plate that's in relativity?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I think your co-counsel has the number for that, the relativity number, so we can -- I'm guessing?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think that's okay, Mr. MacKinnon. We're just putting up the picture for what it's worth and we'll see what it is.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We're -- we've moved on Mr. MacKinnon, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So that's what I think we're doing, so I'm just -- just let's try and get through this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, no, I don't think we'd go there. So your co-counsel I think has the reference?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You're going to have to wrap up, though. If these are just pictures you're putting up ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you can put it up with any ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
"The next time you've found." I mean, I think ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think that's going to have to be it, though.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, he asked a question, and I'm -- I can guess at what the answer is.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, just -- please. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So I think that's it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, that's not fair, firstly, not a fair statement. So please -- and please don't... If you're going to make a statement please make it, don't make statements back to the crowd as you leave the podium please. As counsel you're well aware of the appropriate way to conduct yourself. Okay. Next I’d like to call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have, like, two minutes left.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You actually had a minute left, but I don't ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think probably we'll take the lunch break now and come back because I think we have -- we should have a little over a half hour of time left. So let's come back at two o'clock, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Bon après midi. Good afternoon. I think the next is the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next I’ll call on the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay thank you. Counsel for Former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The Province of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Government of Canada, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- slow down a bit, please, when you're reading?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re pretty well out of time, so you’re going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well focus on ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so that ends your testimony. Thank you very much for coming and testifying at the Commission, much appreciated and you’re free to go. We’re going to move with the next. So I’m going to do a five-minute break just to change the arrangements, may 10 minutes to make -- change the arrangements and move to our next witness, so a 10- minute break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now, just before we start, if I could just -- I just want to make a brief statement that from now on, for the balance of the week, we will be hearing from a number of senior government ministers, including the prime minister and the deputy prime minister. The Commission recognizes that this is exceptional and even more so as the House, as I understand it, is sitting. So the latter fact, the fact the House is sitting, is such that it may require some accommodation for these witnesses in the event of votes of the House of Commons or events requiring that they respond to pressing needs. So I just wanted to put that on the record, so for parties. It's also important that in the course of these examinations, we not lose sight of the reason that they are here to testify; that is, the subject matter of this Inquiry. The examinations, therefore, must remain focused on this, particularly in light of the limited time we have. Finally, as I have insisted throughout, I will continue to insist that the conduct of the public and indeed the parties be respectful at all times, which I'm sure everyone understands. So I just wanted to say that because it's -- we're sort of entering another phase for the balance. Okay. So with that introduction, Commission counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I could just -- if you could try and be a little slower for the interpreters because they have to translate everything you say, and you have a tendency to have a high output.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you have 10 minutes left.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You can think up new questions, I’m sure. We’re happy to share them. So this may be a good time for the afternoon break, then. And we can come back in 15 minutes to go into the cross-examinations.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Do we have the actual reference? Maybe your associate can tell us what the reference in the database.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re over your time, so I hope that’s the last ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. For the OPP please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Be nice.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. I was hopeful, but ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Okay. Next is Counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. No, you're already over time. So don't ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- get me wrong, you're already there. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is -- and now we’re into the shorter, more challenging timelines -- City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well under your time. Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, let’s try and keep this -- can you just ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
As long as they’re short.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next I’ll call on the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I’d like to now call on the Province of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead, but try and make it fast. Everyone's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- been over, with one exception, as I recall.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I'm going to have to say that you're now more than double your time, so one last question is all I'll allow.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The Province of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're well over time, so with that answer, you're going to have to wrap up please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Canadian Constitution Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the DF/JCCF, Democracy Fund and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just let him finish the answer, then you can ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, but if you don't let him answer then there's no point answering -- asking the questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next the Criminal Lawyer's Association.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Does it involve this witness?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What's your position on that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, maybe we'll take five minutes, a five-minute break and probably the witness can appreciate it. It's been a long afternoon, evening. So we'll take five minutes and then maybe you can sort it out and we can come back, because obviously, it's better to have the questioning before your final questioning. And you can also deal with Commission Counsel. I don't know if they can help, but I'm sure they're willing to help if possible. Okay. Thank you. We'll take five minutes, and you can -- Commission Counsel will come and get me if it's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Has it been sorted out?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And is that acceptable?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well I think I’m going to exercise my discretion and let the Convoy ask a few questions. And the reason is, this has been a very difficult inquiry, given the time constraints. The Government has had a lot of pressure to produce documents, and we’re very appreciative of their continuing efforts. And similarly, with redactions, redactions have been done quickly, and in some cases, we appreciate the government reviews those redactions and can then provide more clarity when -- after they review them. And all of this is, I think, to the Government’s credit. Having said that, it does, in some cases, result in parties have missed opportunities. And I would feel much better allowing the Convoy to do the five minutes if they hadn’t well exceeded their time, but in the circumstances, I’m still prepared to give them some time. And it’s no negative reflection on the Government, nor on your ability to question. I’m not questioning that you would do it fairly. It’s simply in recognition of the circumstances we’re operating under, and I think an accommodation is appropriate.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll give him - - but it is -- please be respectful of what the ruling is.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now I'm calling on the Government of Canada again.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. If I can just ask a few short questions and some of them it's for a little clarification. And I know it's been a long afternoon, evening. I just want to confirm, the point you made about the Police Services Act and requesting the OPP assist, the difference there is, as I understood it, and I just want to be sure I have the note, is the OPP is required to assist, as opposed to other police services, including RCMP, would likely support or help, but the difference is requirement; am I right about that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And that -- I mean, is that because policing is a provincial responsibility?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Another question, the -- and this about the relationship between the Solicitor General and the OPP, or you -- not you, but in your former role -- over the RCMP, or even police services boards. And I guess to use a concrete example, is it appropriate, in your view -- or could it be that the board or the Solicitor General give -- indicate its priority? And to use a specific, would it be improper for the Solicitor General of Ontario to have said, “There are big problems in Ottawa and in Windsor. Our view is Windsor’s more important. It’s, of course, up to you but, as far as the Province is concerned, our priority is Windsor, but it’s your decision”?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So just to pursue that, so in this case, even though it was just what the Province would like but it’s up to him, that, you think, would be -- would still constitute interference?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then there was a question you answered about whether you were aware that Commissioner Lucki had said that there were still police tools available that had not been fully utilized.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Now, leaving aside Commissioner Lucki’s comments, were you aware that the police had tools available to it that they had not utilized?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. The -- you made a mention -- and I’m not sure I’ve got the correct note -- when you were talking about the deficiencies or the tools that were added by the Emergencies Act, you talked about the financial and the FINTRAC, and you mentioned the tow trucks, and I’m just trying to -- you did mention “designated spaces” and I’m just trying to understand. Because we’ve had a fair amount of evidence here, let’s just say I’m not quite clear, for the sake or argument, on whether the common law powers to create exclusion zones was adequate to deal with the Ottawa situation or whether it required the Act, the Emergencies Act.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And when you did the G20, were there problems with the creation of exclusion zones?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, we -- I thank you very much for -- if nothing else, for your endurance, and thank you for coming. And that ends the examination and your testimony. So thank you and have a good evening. We’re going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30, and we’ll have, I think, two new witnesses tomorrow.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. Okay. Commission Counsel, we’re ready to go?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, it’s your call when -- you still have time, so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
By my count, you have lots of time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I was just thinking ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’ve ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well I have a lot of experience following time. Or not following it. So just wondering if you wanted the break now or later?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What’s your application?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well have you written any -- is there ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you haven’t? At the moment, there’s no application, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not going to do this orally right now.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s -- I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I have no idea at this point where this is going, so I’m going to take the break, and you can speak to Commission Counsel, which I think I’ve repeated many times is the way to at least raise the issue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And then we’ll see if they can resolve it ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- or not. But we have a schedule and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- procedure to follow.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So there’s no question we want to get at the truth, but you know what? It’s a very complex issue and it’s not all about what you want. It’s about what the Commission needs to do, what the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- parties want to do. I’m trying ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m trying to control a process. And we have witnesses. We have a schedule. It’s been going for a while. Please speak to Commission Counsel. We’ll see where we go. And the -- we’ll take the morning break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ll take 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Commission Counsel has not completed ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m sorry, I’m speaking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
The application, if you want to do it, you’ve been advised it’s to be done in writing, not in the middle of ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- the presentation. So I’m ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re speaking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m speaking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I will take a break while you’re asked to leave.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I will return in five minutes. If security could deal with counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Commission counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now cross-examination; start with the convoy organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, just on your first question, it is expected that the ruling will come out at the -- during the lunch hour. There have been a fair amount of back and forth, without going into detail, there’s some, let’s say, innovative type of issues that had to be dealt with. So that should come out at the lunchtime, which I’m happy to -- yeah, I will do my utmost. It’s going to come out, unfortunately probably not on the record, the website, because it won’t be translated, which is one of the issues we have to deal with, but we will -- in light of what you say, we’ll issue it in English only for the moment, and it will become -- be posted when it’s bilingual, but I understand that submission. So that should enable you. So we can put off the cross-examinations till after the lunchtime. In terms of the other problem, that’s not something I can deal with. I’ve dealt -- I’m trying to deal the best I can with the situation; and, quite frankly, if the issue had been raised the way you have now, I would have given the answer I’m giving now. So what I propose, then, since this witness will be here after lunch, we simply delay till after lunch. If you could endeavour, because I see you have Mr. -- you have a co- counsel, so you can sort out how that can be done, that would be appreciated.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So next I’ll call on the OPP, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next call on the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's to be encouraged. I may even allow that. So I think we'll take the lunch break now and come back at ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm certainly a favour of communication. I believe that the Convoy is still represented, so it's not a question of no representation. I'm not aware of a request that he return to the room, but if he's requests it, I will consider it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I think the next up is the Government of Alberta, please. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Do you want to take a minute, or do you want to -- oh, there you go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Your time is up, so if you can try and wrap up, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next if I could call on the Union of British of Columbia Indian Chiefs, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I can call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund/JCCF, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just bring it to a question, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have ran out of time so you’re going to have to focus here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next I’ll call on the City of Windsor, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, so we need a short break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take 10 minutes. Is that all that’s needed or is it longer?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well I’ll -- we’ll take a 10-minute break. If it needs to be more, please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure I’d be allowed to do that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I guess that -- where we at? Oh, but that counts. I called you already. So the time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I take a moment though to make a point? Tomorrow we have a very full day. We will have a presentation on the public input. We have three witnesses, three Ministers. You may have already received the allocation of time. The allocation of time is arguably brutal. I won’t have much flexibility given the amount of time. So I would strongly urge that counsel talk amongst themselves. If you want to have a longer period of cross-examination with some of the witnesses that are limited to five minutes, try to work out a deal a bit like this one to have a longer period, because I know five minutes is hard to make a point in five minutes. I understand that. But I mean, we’re bound by the time limits we have. So there’s a long list of five-minute people and some may be willing to coordinate or allow. So I mention it so that you have time to do it maybe at the break. Obviously totally up to you. I’ve had to allocate essentially everyone who asked, but the allocation is, I recognize, small. And I’m simply signalling that given tomorrow’s schedule, it’s going to be hard to be flexible. So thanks for giving me that opportunity, but I think it’s important. I’d like you to think about it. Again, it’s up to you, obviously, but my interest is that people who want to get at an important point with any one of the three witnesses have the time. Okay. with that, you have fresh time. We'll start from zero. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next call on the Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, just going back, I think -- I suspect you may be functioning under a misapprehension with respect to the testimony of Mr. Vigneault, but that’s a different issue which we can get back to, because I don’t -- I think you’ve misunderstood his answer. So that’s something which maybe could be cleared up. With respect to the question, I’ll let you continue this, however the outstanding motion that you’ve referred to has not been ruled on and the evidence that you’re proposing to tender is not in the public record. So that is not an appropriate, if you like it, an appropriate representation at this stage. So –- but I’ll let you ask the question; I have –- because of the outstanding motion at the moment.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can I just interrupt you?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If you could just read what the question was to Mr. Vigneault again?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, so I just want to -- my understanding to try and assist, is that CSIS will neither confirm or deny that they’re investigating that because that’s all secret. So what he’s answering there is not a refusal to identify, not a refusal to answer, it’s because their job is to do investigations. They do not answer those questions. That’s my understanding So I just want to clear that up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it isn’t that Mr. Vigneault was trying to ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So –- but I think for the record that’s important and it may assist you. Now, I don’t know if Commission counsel wants to add or whether I’ve misstated it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Put it as a question; you’re trying to make all kinds of statements that are of no assistance to the Commission or of this witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next, the Windsor Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next is the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s what you said yesterday. It didn’t turn out that way.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're way over time, but I'll let you ask the question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the National Police Federation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. No, you're not. No. Don't try and pull that. No, no, no, but you were close, to be fair. Okay. Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. I guess maybe just have the document put up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I only have one question and it's probably already been answered, but I just want to explore it just a bit more, and this is about the -- it's been called the line between the police and the politicians or the Board or whatever. And I try and ask you something more specific. Let us say that there were two protests, one going on in Ottawa and one at the border in Windsor. Would it be appropriate for either you, in respect of the RCMP, or the solicitor general in Ontario to advise the superintendent -- the commissioner, rather -- that the government's priority would be Windsor; however, it's totally up to them, obviously, to decide and to deploy resources in accordance with what they're prepared to do? Would that be -- and I'll give you a spoiler alert -- Minister Blair thought that would be inappropriate, and so as I think you mentioned, we should be -- this Commission should be looking at that relationship. I want to hear your view.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ve heard that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think you’ve dodged my question, and if you don’t want to answer it, that’s fine, given the spoiler alert I gave you. But I am literally very interested in, obviously, what you gave me as an answer, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- which is helpful.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I am curious about something as clear as that question I asked. If you really don’t have a view, that’s fine.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you very much. I have no further questions. I do appreciate you coming to testify and you being patient as we went a little bit over time. So thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’re now going to go to our second witness. I probably should take about five minutes while we get -- change the witness and get organized. So we’ll take a five-minute break. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We have another witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You have lots of time left. You have about I think about 20, 30 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So now we go to the next phase. Do you want a break before we do that? Or just press on?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No problem. We’re used to long days here. Okay. Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s a very good development. Okay. So just so I get that right, five minutes to Windsor and 10 minutes the Democracy Fund JCCF; that’s right? Okay. So next is the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re well over your time. I’ve given you, in fact, an extra five minutes, so please, if you could wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, if I can call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. So next is the CCLA please. Not sure what's going on.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. Well, not on mute. I think she's -- she was here this morning. We heard her earlier. Maybe she didn’t realize she had time, or you were so clear that she has no questions. Okay. Well, we'll move to the City of Windsor instead, and maybe Commission counsel can -- thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a question at the end of that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s an odd way to carry out a cross-examination.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Do we have any news from CCLA?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Dangerous to say that there is 10 minutes sitting out there.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
To be fair, that is true. If somebody -- if there is a bureaucratic error on our part, which wouldn’t be the first, speak now or forever hold your piece. Okay. That’s great. So I call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So any reply?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, then, I think you’re now free to have supper.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Non, mais quand même peut- être un petit verre de vin pour célébrer la fin de ton témoignage.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci de votre présence et de votre témoignage, puis aussi d’avoir accommodé cette heure ici, parce que...
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. So we’re adjourning until 9:30 tomorrow morning -- longer than today, so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Good morning. Bonjour. So this morning we have a presentation, and then it'll be followed by three witnesses. So first, the presentation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. allez-y.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Diverse and somewhat divided. So thank you very much. So those -- that's the presentation of the public consultation results. I'm going to take a short break just to get our next witness in and come -- we can move to the next phase. So five minutes only to get the next witness in. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, it will be an interesting manoeuvre throughout the testimony, but I'm sure everyone will be on their guard. So with that, perhaps we can swear the witness.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time to take the morning break or ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So thank you. We can now go to the next phase, the cross- examinations. First are the convoy organizers, please. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure. I mean he’s not a -- he’s there as Attorney General as a member of cabinet. That’s the problem, I think ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- that we’re running into.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next, I’ll call on the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. That’s good. We have trading system that has been initiated, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And it’s encouraged ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- so that those who feel they have a good pitch will have a couple more throws at you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So that’s what’s happened -- happening, just so you know. Next is the Ottawa Coalition.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure I allow that type of trade as I've said before. Okay. The OPP, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is former Chief Sloly's counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, call on the Canadian Constitution Foundation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it’s appropriate to ask him what the purpose of the CSIS Act is, if that’s what you’re doing, as I understand it, and I’m not sure that that requires anything beyond his understanding. I mean, I -- if it’s a legal interpretation of what the CSIS Act means, that’s different. So what is it you’re trying to get at from him?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure he can interpret anymore than read the words, but I think that’s the best you can get from him.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Let’s see where it goes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m afraid you’re also out of time. So you’re going to have to wrap up. And I think you’ve probably gone about as far as you can with interpreting Hansard.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. thank you. Unfortunately, you’re going to have to come back after lunch, if that’s not a problem, because I think we have over a half hour of material left.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll adjourn and take the lunch break for one hour, come back at 2:00 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Je m'excuse pour la retard. I apologize for the slight delay. I'm sure anticipation for a continued, exciting examination. So the next, I believe, is the JCCF, Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sure.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the CCLA, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next call on the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next the Windsor Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next I’ll call on the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. And good luck with the fire.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I hope so.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I have to ask questions and maybe a re-examination. So we’re going to have to figure it out. But one step at a time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay, any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, somebody will signal when that time comes, I take it?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, maybe you can go -- go and vote, then, if -- and vote wisely. So ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I will adjourn until, I guess, what -- about 10 minutes?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I understand it’s now my turn? Okay. I don’t have many questions. I apologize for making you bounce back and forth. I just want to start with one easy one, which is the -- in one of the cross-examinations, you talked about the insurance and the need to make it national. And I take it you would agree that by the exercise you went through, you’re overriding a provincial right, if you like, to control insurance, at least in that limited respect?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So it’s an exercise -- when we look at it, it’s not just a -- sort of a power of the federal government that’s exercised within its discretion. It becomes, in a way, a constitutional exercise that goes into another area of constitutional jurisdiction, and that may have some impact on how this has to be looked at; would that be fair?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I’m more thinking in terms of the review test ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to give you a bit of a hint at what it was. And, as a spoiler, I don’t think Madam Drouin agreed with you, but that’s -- that’s okay, I gather. The second I wanted to just raise quickly, which is -- was also raised, is the role of injunctions. And, as I understand it -- I may be wrong -- you’re not a big fan the injunctions being taken by the government?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And I appreciate that, and ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And there is also an issue about enforceability and so on. But I guess one of the areas that has come up in the course of these hearings is that law enforcement and -- sometimes has issues in terms of clarity, and an injunction gives them clarity as to what's legal and what is not. And do you see a role in this type of a protest for injunctions to give police a clear line when it goes from protest to, as you've described it, an occupation?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And I'm going to go back to the decision to -- or what we call the church and state distinction and Ipperwash. And I guess one of the things that may or may not be an issue in what we're doing is understanding how Ipperwash would extend to the types of situations that you and your government were faced with. And to put it in a, maybe in an unreasonable way, but as I understand it, the RCMP, the decision to deploy RCMP officers to do provincial -- to support the province would not be something that is -- the province has a right to call on.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. And I guess what I'm wondering is does that -- is that something that should be reviewed or should be structured in the sense that what is the role of different police and how are they dispatched? In other words, is that purely a decision, and I don't know, by your Commissioner to decide to support, for example, the Windsor Police, where there's no agreement and it would be deploying resources and money?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, because Minister Mendicino did speak about the arrangements, and he did say the political level he is involved ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- in a decision to deploy from one province to the other, as I understand it, a joint decision ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- by the province and the government?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
But I neglected to ask him about the -- how it would work in Ontario and whether there is any advantage in that being looked into.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And just on one final, and I may get into trouble here, so -- but it's -- your counsel can weigh in if need be. But I'm just trying to understand, the job that the Commission is to do is to look at the decision by Cabinet, and as was mentioned by Commission Counsel, there's an issue of the reasonableness of it. And I'm having a little trouble, and I don't know if you can help me, how we assess reasonableness when we don't know what they were acting on. And do we just presume they were acting in good faith without knowing the basis or structure within which they had made that decision? And you know of what I speak.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. I guess, and I don't mean it in any sort of derogatory or negative way, but the final arguments as to the law are obviously important as to whether or not what was done was -- met the requirements of the law, I have no trouble with that because that's something that has to be decided. But what I don't know, and I'm not saying we necessarily need to know, is what was the belief of those who made the decision as to what the law was? And I guess the answer is we just assume they acted in good faith in application of whatever they were told. Is that sort of what you're saying?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Because I think you understand what I am saying, and I'm just trying to figure how I get from A to B because I'm close to starting to do that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Those are my questions. Thank you very much, and I'm sorry you had to bounce in and out ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but it's good of you to come.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci, beaucoup, et bonne chance à vous. So we'll -- I am not sure how it's going to work, but someone will tell me when someone is available? So do we start now? Okay. Well, we'll take five minutes to sort it.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Take your time. D’accord. Alors, on y va? D’accord.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So first, if I can call on the CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I’ll call on the JCCF and Democracy Fund.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That’s my understanding also.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We have a trading system here, so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I think you've got your answer, and I think ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- you've gone about as far as you can on this.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's coming up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And go slowly when you're reading, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I gave you a lot of extra time, just so you know for next time ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- when I’m a little tougher. Okay. Next is the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're -- in theory, you've got a ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- little over a minute.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, I just have two quick questions. One is probably and obvious one but -- well, maybe not. You mentioned you were in Ukraine at the time the convoy started and, obviously, things did not get better. Was Ukraine a factor in your analysis in deciding -- or in supporting the invocation of the Act -- of the Emergencies Act?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah. No, I ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the reason I asked is -- and maybe I should have been more specific -- is not in terms of the security of Canada as much as it being a national emergency and the impact on supply lines that we’ve heard was -- certainly, some have testified that that was an important impact on Canada that was only worsened or likely to be worsened because of the war in Ukarine. So that’s why I was asking, but obviously it was not a factor for you in terms of why it was a national emergency as opposed to the security issue.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And then the second is -- it’s just to -- and I know -- I’m quite certain what your answer will be, but I think what Alberta was trying to raise with, and you wouldn’t necessarily be aware, is that there’s a suggestion that, at one point, the RFA -- well, let me give you the background. Alberta secured some tow trucks, heavy tow trucks, and at one point was looking for drivers. Was there a separate -- are you aware or were you separately asked, by way of an RFA, not for heavy tow trucks ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but for drivers who could operate the tow trucks that had neem acquired by Alberta? And I think that’s what -- I suspect that’s what the questioner was trying to get out.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, that’s -- thank you very much for accommodating the ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- schedule for the Commission and for coming to testify.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So think we’ll take the afternoon break and we’ll come back in 15 minutes, assuming there are no other issues such as votes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Seventy-five (75).
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So if I could first call on the Democracy Fund/ JCCF, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next if I could call on the City of Windsor, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is former Chief Sloly's counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. OPP?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh, my god. Okay. I don't know, that's going to be a long... Okay, Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. And the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that -- there wasn't an offer made, but -- and you owe me five minutes from the last time. But let's go and see where we go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No problem. Okay, next is the City of Ottawa.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the big winner, the Government of Canada.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, you didn’t take up all your delegated time. Okay. Well that was -- thank you very much for coming and for testifying, and especially at this late hour. So you’re free to go and enjoy the little bit of evening that’s left.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. So we’re going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour. Good morning. Je m'excuse pour delay mais merci votre patience. Apologize for the short delay, but I think we're ready to go.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, anytime you like. It’s a -- can be now or in 10 minutes; what’s a good moment?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’ll take the morning break for 15 minutes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That's great.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well thank you. So we’re now -- we’ll move to the cross- examination portion. First, I’d like to call on the convoy organizers for -- first to go ahead, please. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, it’s a bit of a trade-off. You ask a -- you make a statement, and you say, “Do you agree,” and she qualifies the answer, ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- that’s appropriate.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
There -- it does exist. Parliamentary privilege ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- does exist.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not aware of that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we're going to have to sort this out because I don't think at this stage, and I apologise, I'm not as familiar with you -- as you are about that case, and clearly the Crown is not either -- the Government. So I think we're going to have to find that. So I'd like you to hold that ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- question.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next. If I could call on the CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We have five minutes left. I don’t know if the Canadian Constitution Foundation wants to start, or...?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s -- I don’t know. I think we’ll adjourn for lunch, how’s that?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll come back, then, at 2 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Once again, I apologize for the slight delay. Issues have come up that I’m having to deal with, so I apologize. Now, I think we can go to the next, which is the Canadian Constitution Foundation, and you’re online. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well I -- I think at the end of the day, I don’t think you can pursue this any further at the moment. I think you’ve got your answer as it is.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Democracy Fund, JCCF.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next I'd like to call on the Government of Alberta.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is City of Windsor?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I guess then we go to Government of Saskatchewan.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So we now turn to the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, thank you very much for attending and for your testimony. We know you probably have other things to do but I appreciate your coming here and taking the Commission’s work seriously.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. We’ll take a short break to prepare for our next panel, and it should only be five minutes or so, but I’ll -- if it takes longer, they’ll let me know. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. I think probably this is a good time to take a 15-minute break and let everyone get up and stretch. And so we'll come back in 15 minutes. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now the next stage. First I’d like to call on the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're -- just to let you know, I think you're over your time, so you're going to have to wrap up pretty soon.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not -- if you can, I'm not looking for a speech. I understand there has been -- have been issues about redactions. I believe that one is one I ordered disclosed, and I believe you questioned somebody about it as recently as yesterday or the day before. I am not sure about the redactions. Certainly, for -- just to qualify, the redactions with respect to parliamentary privilege, I didn't say it doesn't exist, I said - --
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I said it was novel and that the arguments presented were insufficient and I ordered the three redactions disclosed. We received something, I think it's yesterday or maybe it was even today, and I apologise, I haven't yet ruled on it, that's true, but I do my very best to make decisions, I try my very best to make them intelligent and thoughtful and that sometimes is not done immediately. So that's sort of how I can respond to those points.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I'm not in a position to rule on that. I suspect that's the mode -- the request you made either yesterday or today, I don't know which, and I'm sorry, I'm not in a position to rule on it right now.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what I'd like you ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- is if you could proceed with your examination or that would be ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I think ideal at this stage, and I'll do my best to deal with the motion of the redaction issues as soon as possible.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm doing my very best.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that's something you can deal with in another forum. I'm doing the best I can here. I think we've gotten very -- a lot of disclosure. There are issues, and we're dealing with those issues that are raised as they are raised. We dealt with the ones you raised I believe at the end of last week, made some orders, confirmed some of the redactions and we'll deal with your most current application.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I'm not sure you can speak for all counsel, and I'm sure they can speak for themselves. As to whether or not you've been asking this for a long time, I'm not aware that you asked about those redactions - --
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- but maybe I don't have the records. But ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- we're going to have to stop this, and despite your belief that the law is always very clear, my experience of 20 years is there's -- that's why judges are around. And so if you could proceed ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- otherwise, you know, we're not going to get anywhere.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is there a question?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, that's ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure that was correct, that he ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I mean, all this note says is “Blair’s current strategy” and “Emergency Act” underneath it. So.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If we could now call on the Ottawa Police Service, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If I could now ask of the CCLA, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's not almost, by the way.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, you may.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The Democracy Fund, JCCF, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, the Canadian Constitution Foundation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think we’re stuck on that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I’m just waiting for an answer on that position.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And the question is, does that include the fact of the opinion or not?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re over time, so if you want to put up the document, that will be ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure they understand what it is. A POU plan is a Public Order Unit, which is -- are the police officers who go in on a police public order process.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, and if you don’t use it, they don’t get it back.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And just to confirm, for the record, it was put to Minister Mendicino.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. We all make mistakes. And so Counsel for former Chief Sloly, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, next is the City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're over your time. You're well over your time. So you're going to have to wrap up.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Now we go to the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
That will probably be a happy event for a lot of people. But don’t feel, on my account.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not sure what the date is. Is there a date on the document?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I’m not -- yeah. Well, I’m just looking at it. So it’s unclear what the date is, I guess, is what you’re saying.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just please ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, and he gave his best evidence and there’s not much we can do. So, please, let the -- let counsel proceed.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you very much for sharing -- or not sharing your thoughts, responding to questions, and coming to testify. Much appreciated. And it’s appreciated that you accommodated the late hour. I’m sure it’s not your first late nights, but it is appreciated. So I think we’ll take a short break to move to the next witness. And we’ll take to reorganize and so on. So we’ll take five or 10 minutes for a break.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, we have another witness. Who is Commission Counsel on this?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Mr. Weatherill, can you hear me?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll now swear you if that's agreeable.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I don't have a list this time, but I understand counsel for former Chief Sloly has a -- some questions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Normally it's the opposite, but go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
What would you like to do?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So the next is Former Chief Sloly’s counsel.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I believe there's the Coalition wants to -- you're okay, yes, Coalition. With the mask, I didn’t recognize you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re-examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
At this hour, why not?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So those are -- well, firstly, thank you for making yourself available, Mr. Weatherill. Unusual as the hour is it's very appreciated by the Commission. So thank you, that terminates your evidence or ends your testimony. And we will adjourn, I think, until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Good morning. Bonjour. So we're at the last day of the public hearings on the facts. There will be, of course, the public hearings on policy matters. Alors, c’est la dernière journée pour recevoir les faits pertinents et évidemment il y aura la période de politiques la semaine prochaine. So I think we're ready for the next witness. Commission Counsel?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well... Maybe we'll take a few minutes. I'm not sure where -- what process is. A bit anti-climatic. (LAUGHTER)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we'll take five minutes then and see, and you can come and get me when it is. Thank you.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oh. No, hold ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead. It's -- just a bit of a false start. Nothing to do with your appearance. You’re welcome to come in, obviously; we’re happy to get started.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just before we get started, there -- as I understand it, as you heard, there will probably be some testimony in English and some in French, so please, if you need translation equipment, you should have it at hand. Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Is this a good time for the break?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we'll take the morning break. We'll take 15 minutes, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bon, alors on reprend. Allez-y.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you very much. We’re going to now move into the cross- examinations. So I’d like to call on, first, the CCLA, please. (SHORT PAUSE)
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Canadian Constitution Foundation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I see that.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well in the spirit of cooperation, that’s fine with me.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And have you given up your time on the Canadian Constitution ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just -- thanks. Just want to be clear.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Could you introduce yourself?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Particularly given my mistake.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's supposed ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- to come to me and I think those happen to be areas that I'm going to have to deal with ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- what is, in fact, the case, but you can pose your question in a different way, if you wish, but I think whether or not they were used, whether or not it was required is something I will rule on.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is now the Canadian Constitution Foundation or have I -- it is? Okay. Thank you. I don't want to get it wrong again.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think it is fair in a sense, but I think what's being raised is it's a little more complicated than the federal government or the Prime Minister releasing these. This is a police operational plan of the OPS involving officers from the OPS and from OPP involving strategy, et cetera, and I would be very surprised if the federal government would order its release without consulting with the various Police Services. And I think that's the unfairness that's being referred to, and, quite frankly, I agree. Now it's -- having said that, he made reference to the plan, and there is an issue about reading it, for sure, but I think the context is important here.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, I think you have a refusal essentially by Counsel, so I think you're going to have to move on.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Just before I go to the next cross-examiner, there seems to be some reactions in the crowd that, in my view, are inappropriate. This is a -- I think a very important process and very serious. There are a lot of people outside, as I understand it, who would like to come in. I would ask you to please refrain from comments, or laughing, or whatever, and try and keep it serious. That would be appreciated, and not only appreciated, if necessary, it will be enforced. So could I ask that it -- you continue to be attentive and pay the attention that is required for what's going on? So with that brief comment, call on the Ottawa Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re pretty close -- well not pretty close. You’re over the end. So if you can try and wrap it up, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well thank you. This is a little early, two minutes early. We don’t normally give an hour and two minutes for lunch, but I think today we will as a special occasion.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So we’ll come back at 2:00 o’clock.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
On est prêt? Parfait. Le prochain groupe… the next is the Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You're out of your time so ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Convoy Organizers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I’ll let the question stand. I think it’s a question of interpretation. Go ahead.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to interrupt you, you're going to have to shorten it because you're already over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. If there's any more trouble that side of the room is going to be expelled. Is that clear enough? Next, I'll call on the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So you took a lot of time. You're out of time, so please get to the point quickly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next is the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Next I’d like to call on the Ontario Provincial Police, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. The next is former Chief Sloly’s counsel, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next call on the City of Windsor, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Next I’d like to call on the Windsor Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. With that pat on the back, we’ll go the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next, I'd like to call on the Criminal Lawyers Association, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
If I can -- if -- okay, that's what I'm trying to get at, because you're over your time.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. I’ll call on the Government of Canada, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well certainly that’s the rule, but if it’s non-controversial, maybe it can, but if you could be careful, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You said the one with the redactions. It wasn’t the one with the redactions.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm sorry, you're -- speak into the microphone please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, if you could get to the question as soon as possible because ---
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- it's looking a bit like a presentation.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Any re- examination?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Hé bien, Monsieur le Premier Ministre, ça me fait bien plaisir de vous dire que nous avons complété. Alors, on vous remercie sincèrement pour votre témoignage et d’avoir pris le temps de venir nous éclairer ici. Alors…
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Vous êtes libre. Profitez de votre fin de semaine. We will take a short break and then come back with final submissions from the various parties and a brief closing statement by, assuming there's still someone here, by me. So merci.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, the evidence is all in, so now we can have a few -- I guess a few moments to go through what various parties view as their critical points and a brief final submissions. It's probably easier from your seat, but I think it probably makes more sense to come up to the podium if people are prepared to do that. So if we can start with the Government of Canada, please?
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Probably because everybody has been focussed on the -- and they want to hear from you first.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Merci. I just want to, for the public that’s no doubt listening, to just make clear that these are summary positions expressed by the parties. There will be more fulsome argument made in writing to the Commission. So just so you get the context, for those who may be listening online or are listening in the hall. These are summaries of the position of the various parties and they will have the opportunity in the next couple of weeks to provide the Commission with complete submissions on their position and argument on the law. Avec ceci, next I’ll call on the Government of Saskatchewan, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It’s now on. You’re good.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. So that was Government of Saskatchewan. The Government of Alberta, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is the City of Ottawa, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. City of Windsor.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Okay. The Ottawa Police Service.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Windsor Police Service, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the Ontario Provincial Police, the OPP.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Next is counsel for former Chief Sloly.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next, the convoy organisers, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Fair. That’s a fair statement.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Next is the Criminal Lawyers Association.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, thank you very much. Next, I'd like to call on the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. I'm not sure, have we got the National Crowdfunding & Fintech Association or -- online? Not seeing them, not hearing them. Okay. So we'll go to the National Police Federation, please.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. Now the Canadian Constitution Foundation, unless you’ve traded again. Just checking.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Thank you. And now the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, Democracy Fund, and Citizens for Freedom.
-
Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. I have not missed anyone? Good. I've missed things before, I've not been perfect, and in fact, probably made more mistakes than most. But I want to say I found those final submissions to be very useful for me. Thank you for taking the time to think it through and give me some of the key issues because, again, I won't repeat it all the time, but I've got a little pressure to get at doing some writing, and it's nice to know what's going to be coming, and at least in general forms. And if you can get your submissions in early they won't be turned back, I can assure you. We've extended the time at the request of some. But it is -- I'm not going to shy away, it's very challenging to get this written because my hope is that once it is written and provided there will be enough there that even if you don't agree with me the facts will be there, the evidence, the analysis, and fact-finding. But ultimately, these are very difficult issues, they overlap, and people could have different views and will have different views on these things, but I can assure you I'll do the very best I can. Now, this brings the fact hearings of the Commission to an end. It was, believe it or not, 43 days ago I first convened these hearings. Since then, we've heard from 75 witnesses, filed numerous overview reports, witness statements, witness interviews, and have introduced over 7,000 documents into evidence. You're a bunch of lawyers. I have rarely seen something that happened in February that has reached this point after less than 10 months. It is an amazing feat. Time has flown by, I'm sure you're the same. At least I hope some of you agree that it wasn't boring. We've managed, albeit with long days and some very late evenings, to stay on schedule. And we've met what you have probably heard me say too many times our unique table, and for that I am most grateful. Most importantly, I am satisfied that I now have the evidence that I need to make the factual findings and to answer the questions I have been mandated to ask, namely, why did the Federal Government declare the emergency, how did it use its powers, and were those actions appropriate? These are questions that, as I said at the outset, the public wants answered, and I am confident that I am now well-positioned to provide those answers. I'm also equipped to report on the additional issues, as mandated by our Order in Council: the evolution of the goals of the convoy movement and broader protests and their leadership, organisation, and participants; the impact of domestic and foreign funding, including crowdsourcing platforms; the impact, role, and sources of mis-information and dis-information, including social media; the economic and other impacts of the blockade; and the efforts of police, and other responders prior to and after the declaration, always to the extent that these issues are relevant to the circumstances of the declaration and the measures taken. Il était important pour moi d’entendre les perspectives de ceux et celles qui ont participé aux évènements ou qui ont été touchés par ceux-ci. Je suis ravi d’avoir eu l’occasion de recueillir ces perspectives. C’est avec intérêt que j’attends les observations écrites des parties qui m’aideront sans doute à mener à terme les travaux de la Commission. I'm anxious to receive the submissions, as I have said, from all parties. Je suis heureux que nous ayons pu mener ces audiences de manière ouverte et transparente, non seulement pour les parties, et les avocats, et les médias, mais aussi pour les nombreux Canadiens qui ont profité de l’occasion pour assister aux audiences, soit en personne, soit par l’intermédiaire de notre diffusion en direct. I'm particularly pleased by the fact that these hearings have, by and large, taken place without a hitch. Commission Counsel, and all counsel, showed flexibility, innovation, and creativity. This didn't just happen. I asked for everyone to work cooperatively to ensure that the facts and information necessary for the public to understand what happened and why it happened would be elicited. And my expectations were met. Counsel, you all rose to the occasion, generally, and there was a bit of grumbling, but generally without a hint of grumbling. I understand most of it occurred where and when I wasn't there. Now, of course, there were issues, but we were able to resolve them in an appropriate manner, or again, some people don't agree with how I resolve things, but that's neither the first time that's happened to me, you'll be pleased to know. Time limits were almost always observed, subject, of course, to the regular, "May I just have one more question?" and that was perfectly fine. Indeed, it was appropriate to ensure that the necessary questions be asked and answered, and you probably have seen I was quite flexible with timelines within the bounds of reasonableness. So I want to thank counsel and the parties for their contribution to the success of these hearing and by success I mean getting to have a record that can be used. I should note that there’s no question that the Commission’s timeframe did present challenges. There were a staggering number of documents produced by the parties in response to the Commission’s request including by the federal government. The productions have been of critical importance to the Commission’s mandate and have resulted in a level of transparency that is, if not unprecedented I’d say it’s virtually unprecedented. But the needs of the Commission to review these documents and the right of the parties to redact on various legal grounds necessarily created time constraints and challenges for all concerned. Where appropriate, the Commission challenged certain redactions and there have been instances where the government at the Commission’s request removed redactions. We understand there were challenges but at the end of the day I think the record is, as I have said, fulsome to allow for me to make the necessary findings. Par conséquent, la divulgation de documents s’est poursuivie tout au long des audiences; les avocats de la Commission ont travaillé sans relâche pour assurer ou s’assurer que les documents seraient mis à la disposition des parties le plus rapidement possible. Je reconnais que les parties ont néanmoins dû traiter des documents avec un court préavis. Dans la mesure du possible, j’ai accommodé les parties en leur permettant d’ajouter des documents à leur liste de documents aux fins des examens et en leur accordant du temps supplémentaire pour leur contre-interrogatoire. J’ai pu le faire tout en maintenant l’intégrité de notre emploi du temps. Ce processus m’a aidé à apprécier les faits pertinents et à développer ma compréhension des enjeux pertinents. Les questions posées par les parties m’ont aussi été d’une aide importante. The process and the questioning by parties has been very much of assistance to me and I want to thank counsel for that. Et maintenant, si vous le permettez, je souhaite exprimer ma sincère gratitude aux nombreuses personnes qui ont travaillé dans la salle d’audience et dans les coulisses pour que les audiences se concrétisent. Cette Commission a été créée et son processus exécuté par un groupe talentueux de professionnels et de collègues. Ils m’ont grandement facilité la tâche. I want to thank those who have assisted me and in fact I've sometimes think I’m no more than a puppet with a lot of puppeteers behind who are making the whole system work. And I deserve virtually no credit for all that’s happened to date. It’s an unbelievable team that I have had supporting me. Notre directrice exécutive, Hélène Laurendeau, notre gestionnaire de bureau, Véronique Perreault et son personnel. You haven’t seen them probably but they put together this whole operation which I think you will agree with me has been very well done in a very short period. L’équipe de gestion d’évènements et de conférence, Yvon Lamoureux, et l’équipe technique qui a assuré la diffusion des audiences. The team behind who make this happen and have put together -- I mean, the technology has been amazing to allow this to happen. My colleague counsel who I owe so much to, as you know, Shantona Chaudhury -- and she says “Chaudhury” and I always make it wrong but I’ll learn. I’m a slow man to learn. But I blame it on my French. But that’s not true. And Jeff Leon. My senior team of lawyers -- Erin Dann who created really the basis for these hearings who is not here with us today, but is back in Toronto. Frank Au, Gordon Cameron, Natalia Rodriguez, Dan Sheppard, and Gabriel Poliquin who I’m happy to report is well, right well, and will be involved next week. My regional lawyers -- Mona Duckett, Sacha Paul, and Maia Tsurumi who you have not seen here but who were important in collecting the information which has made it into the record from the various border blockades out west. And the two you probably know best -- Eric Brousseau and John Mather. My God, have they been good. They have put out more fires than the fire department. And they are -- they also had other duties you might not believe. They were doing this part time, running this hearing. But I’m greatly indebted to them. And then the team of lawyers, some of which you've seen. I guess most of them if not all of them you've seen. Stephen Armstrong, Misha Boutillier, Sajeda Hedaraly, Alexandra Heine, Nusra Khan, Etienne Lacombe, Allison McMahon, Jean-Simon Schoenholz, Dahlia Shuhaibar, and Guillaume Sirois- Gingras. And they’re at the beginning of their career, by and large, but boy are they competent and hardworking, once again, I must say. I couldn’t have done it without them and I’m also going to lean on them to help me in the next phase a bit. But I'm sure they’ll be happy to help. I’d also like to recognize our policy advisors, Mark Freiman, Mark Pritchard, and Mark Sandler; our communications advisors Michael Tansey and Marie-Claude Gagne; our public input team under Patrick Pilon; Madam Registrar, Stacey Huber. Ms. Lynne Mahoney and our document clerks from Heuristica who amazed me with their ability and to make documents seemingly appear from nowhere, but also the challenge -- you don’t know the half of the problems getting all the federal documents from their system to our system to -- I won’t go there. And our translators, transcriptionists, and interpreters -- they have been incredible and some of you made their life very difficult. You know who you are. Our research council who guided and continue to guide the policy aspects of the Commission and planned the roundtables for the policy hearings next week -- Genevieve Cartier, chair of the council; Jamie Cameron, Michelle Gallant, Nomi Claire Lazar, Kent Roach, Clifford Shearing, and Jocelyn Stacey. And finally our security team, and the staff of Public Service and Procurement Canada, and Library and Archives Canada. They’ve all worked to make again this whole hearing go well and making us feel safe, made us feel welcome, and comfortable. I think that team -- those three teams are important to this, bringing this together. Now, before closing, I want to address the people of Canada in two respects. I was delighted that approximately 9,500 Canadians took the time to make a submission through our public input process. These submissions were most helpful to me and our counsel team to understand your observations, experiences, and ideas. They contributed to making this a truly public inquiry. It was important for the Commission to hear from the public and understand the views of Canadians. I now have that understanding to provide an important backdrop for the Commission’s mandate. It’s fair to say if you've gone through that document that this is a very divisive issue at the root of this whole convoy and what has come out of it. And I think this process, I hope, will be of assistance to people to understand and move forward. It is truly humbling to me to be involved in this. I can assure you it’s -- I would almost say overwhelming to see the interest, the concerted response from people. It's - - I wasn’t looking for fame and fortune, but I think I'm kind of stuck now to be at least a figure of some neighbourhoods. Je remercie aussi le peuple canadien de l’intérêt que vous avez porté aux travaux de la Commission et apprécie la confiance qui m’a été accordée pour mener cette importante enquête publique. Ce fut un privilège et un honneur de servir en tant que commissaire. Nous avons encore beaucoup de travail à faire pour préparer et finaliser notre rapport. Je vous assure que nous continuerons à faire tout notre possible pour vous apporter les réponses aux questions soulevées par notre mandat, vous ne méritez rien de moins. I can assure the public that we will do all that is possible to bring forward the answers to the questions raised by our mandate. And as I said at the outset, they deserve nothing less. So thank you, and good evening. I now declare these fact-hearing portion closed. I may not see a lot of you now that we move to the next phase, given that the submissions will be in writing, but I do feel I've made some friends -- maybe some enemies too - - but I like to think I've made some friends because virtually all of you, I did not know. And it has been a very very pleasant experience, and thank you all for tolerating me. And my, I guess, difficult task, is always still in front of me. Thank you very much.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Bonjour. Good morning. Bienvenue and welcome to this new phase of the public hearings. Over the last six weeks, I’ve heard from over 75 witnesses who testified about the circumstances that have led to the declaration of a Public Order Emergency, and the use of powers under the Emergencies Act. These witnesses have provided me with many perspectives on those events, including the views of public servants, police forces, protesters, residents, and political officials. That evidence has been critical in allowing me to discharge the fact findings portion of my mandate. Nous entamons aujourd’hui la deuxième phase des audiences publiques, celle-ci concerne un volet différent de mon mandat. Lorsque j’ai été nommé commissaire, on ne m’a pas seulement demandé de faire la lumière sur ce qui s’est déroulé en janvier et en février 2022, on m’a aussi confié la tâche de formuler des recommandations pour l’avenir. Ces recommandations doivent aborder une éventuelle modernisation de la Loi sur les mesures d’urgence ainsi que d’autres enjeux qui méritent d’être étudiés. On m’a également demandé de tirer des conclusions concernant plusieurs domaines spécialisés — des plateformes de sociofinancement à la mésinformation sur les réseaux sociaux. For the next five days, the Commission will hear from a series of experts and expert roundtables, each one devoted to a different topic that is relevant to the Commission’s policy mandate. These discussions will assist me in making the recommendations that will be contained in my final report. The organization of these roundtables was undertaken by the Commission’s research counsel, which has provided the Commission with excellent support throughout the process, including the commissioning of papers. And in that regard, I just wish to note that some of the papers contain factual statements or factual assumptions that may not have been borne out in the evidence led at the hearings. Of necessity, of course, these papers were prepared in advance of the fact of the hearings, and those factual assumptions or statements will not be considered as evidence and will not be considered in reaching my conclusions. Obviously, I will reach conclusions based on the facts I have heard in the course of the hearings, and in the documents contained -- that were filed. Now, parties with standing at the Inquiry were consulted, and provided valuable input on the topics to be addressed; the process that the roundtables should follow; and who should be invited to participate. As a result of that process, the research counsel prepared nine roundtables involving approximately 50 expert participants. The experts include both academics and practitioners in such areas as law -- such areas of the law as policing, intelligence, and government. For those who have been following our proceedings so far, the policy phase will look somewhat different, both physically and in how it’s going to proceed. Rather than examinations by lawyers, the roundtables will start with a facilitated discussion led by a moderator. During this discussion, parties with standing at the policy phase will be submitting additional questions to Commission Counsel, who will then conduct their own questioning of the participants, based on the input received. I, too, may have questions to ask of participants. Le Conseil de recherche, les modérateurs et les participants ont consacré de longues heures à la préparation des tables rondes qui se tiendront cette semaine. Je tiens à les remercier tous et toutes d’avoir fait preuve de générosité en acceptant d’appuyer la Commission dans ses travaux. Sur ceci, je cède la parole au doyen Robert Leckey qui animera notre première séance sur les droits et libertés fondamentaux qui entrent en jeu lors de manifestations et leurs limites. Doyen Leckey, la parole est à vous.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I just want to -- not on this last point, but go back to a point that Professor Mathen was raising. And that’s about peaceful assembly and the question of whether it’s a matter of violence or threatening. And I think threatening is very relevant in this case because we heard a lot of evidence about people who felt threatened by the fact that there was all this gas around and they were scared for their life, arguably. There were people who not walk to work because they felt threatened. And there were people who -- businesses who closed because of the threat of mask removal and so on. So leaving aside whether those facts are established or not, which is a dispute, and leaving aside, really, whether that’s a group or individuals or no t hat were causing it, I’m quite interested in exploring a little more of that concept, because I -- whether that means it’s a section 1 or whether it’s -- the assembly is peaceful. And I think the peaceful is if you -- if violence is the only thing that makes it non-peaceful, that’s one thing, although I don’t think that’s a big limitation, given that violence is illegal per se and when is the assembly violent would be hard to define in any event. So that would be helpful for me, because I think that’s part of the concept that is being developed.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Some help, but it's -- it is -- it's still -- I'm still troubled. I mean, the -- to put it more dramatically, or more sort of black and white, at sort of 10 o'clock on the Saturday of this demonstration, certain people have said "it's an occupation", and so my question is really directed at that. And leaving aside whether that's a fair characterisation. But a neighbourhood was occupied. The police, to a large degree, were not pressing any charges, were not pursuing any complaints by the citizens of that area, and arguably, there was no real violence in that -- in those areas that were as reported, let's assume that. So that's really my question, is you have an occupation of a neighbourhood, as opposed to a park, and you have people who legitimately, let's assume, they've testified they felt threatened. You can't point to any violence. Do you have to go to section 1, a reasonable limit, i.e. which is I think what Professor Cameron says, or is there something about peaceful assembly, no you can't -- it's not a peaceful assembly to occupy a neighbourhood and basically -- where police can't enforce because they'll be swarmed. Again, you might say it's a few individuals, which no doubt it is. But that's -- I think that's a factual finding I may have to find, but it's -- when I look at peaceful assembly is that something that is peaceful? And -- but again, I thank you for the comments, but that's -- I wanted to point out, really, what is a critical element in this is, is that occupation, as it's been described, where it's been said it's a lawless neighbourhood in which people live, and no suggestion, let's say, of violence.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Je vais juste… une seconde pour dire je pense que les… certainement ce qui a été soulevé par le professeur Bird rejoint beaucoup ce que le professeur Gaudreault-Desbiens dit dans le sens que la tolérance d’un protêt, est-ce qu’on doit tenir compte du message qui est en train d’être véhiculé par ce protêt-là et aussi les conséquences parce qu’on a entendu de la preuve que le message encourageait des menaces beaucoup pour des gens, des femmes et des politiciens. Alors, je pense que ça, c’est une question. Certainement, s’il y a d’autres commentaires, ça m’est utile puis peut-être le faire plus tard, mais est-ce que c’est légitime de tenir compte de ça? Parce que l’expression est « de la « désinformation ».
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So -- I mean, just to take this point to the next level. So there seems to be consensus that once trucks are parked illegally and are asked to leave, and don't leave, would the assembly then become illegal or is it an assembly that then is in violence and -- of section 1. Here, they were allowed to park, so -- and then they were asked essentially to leave and they didn't leave. So that's, I guess, that's the general view?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I'll hear more about trucks over time.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Exceptions?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, they're offences.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I guess we can. I guess one of the questions is, maybe that’s the overbroad that you commented on, but who makes the determination that it might lead to serious interference, et cetera? Because it’s -- that’s the -- it’s not clear to me. But that may be the answer, as Professor Bird said, that it’s by its nature because it’s temporary and it has to be broad.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, and that’s why I raise it, is at the end of the day, much of the concern is that the Act is so broad and powerful, but on the other hand, it is Charter compliant by its very nature. So the answer to questions such as this one are important because it arguably affects the initial decision, because the degree of -- or you could argue certainly that the degree of interference with the Charter is -- should be taken into account in the initial determination of what the threshold for an emergency is. And I don’t think they’re detached, but I’m not sure. And that’s why I’m curious about the response from you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I think to put it a little more directly in context, it’s suggested, for example, in Windsor, that the road should be opened up and people’s livelihoods was affected by the road being closed, and let’s assume that counterprotest wanted to open the road, to put it more concretely. And so they would be -- in that case, the police would be preventing people from carrying out the legal -- their legal right to proceed through the road, for example. It gets a little more complicated, I think.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. It's always fascinating to debate these subjects, and it's very useful for me to listen to the submissions and to hear what the questions of participants are. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Alors, vous êtes en charge.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Avec plaisir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Slow it down.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, et j’aimerais ajouter mes remerciements aux pénalistes, c’était, pour répondre à ta question, très utile, un domaine où je dois pédaler très vite et vous m’avez donné un peu un élan. Alors, un grand merci. Et un très grand merci aussi à toi, Patrick Leblond, pour ta contribution et d’avoir bien animé notre discussion. Alors, un grand merci à tous et on va remettre à demain les séances de la Commission. À demain à 9 heures et demie.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, welcome to -- everyone, to day two of the policy sessions. And today we’re going to move to -- well, I was going to give you a false statement to show we’re dealing with misinformation, but I will give the right answer: We’re dealing this morning with misinformation, disinformation, and the role of social media. So with no further ado, avec aucune autre introduction, je vais donner la parole à Wayne MacKay, professeur MacKay, pour… qui va présider à cette session. Professeur.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ralentir.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Not at this point. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
We’ll come back at noon.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I haven't got much to add to the very nice comments that Professor MacKay made that this is a very interesting panel. It was obviously thoughtful and helpful. I want to give you a couple of minutes if you want to do a wrap-up as to what it is you think would be, I mean, based either on the questions or whatever that you think I should know or might help me in the working I'm doing. Si vous avez des commentaires ou des suggestions à ajouter aux réponses qui ont été avancées, aux questions qui ont été avancées, ça me serait utile, mais franchement, ç’a été un panel et une présentation réfléchis et intéressants. So any sort of last minute contributions you want to make, or comments? I think, if not, I'll thank you, but I did want to give you that opportunity.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
It's not a big -- c'mon, let's not overstate things here.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I'm not sure about that. I don't have any doctorates or anything, I'm just a -- just trying to learn the area. Okay. Well, thank you very much, and once again, un grand remerciement.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, welcome to our second session for today, and we have a new panel to deal with the protection of flows of essential goods and services, critical infrastructure, and trade corridors. Alors, bonjour et bienvenue. Nous avons un nouveau panel qui va nous instruire sur des… un nouveau sujet. Alors, je demanderais à la modératrice, Vanessa MacDonnell… Professeur?
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
…la professeure MacDonnell de prendre la parole et nous présenter les différents conférenciers.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you try and slow up just a bit? You're going too fast for the interpreters.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yeah, I think we -- we’re going to have a question ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- period.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So what we’ll do now is take a half-hour break, on va prendre une demi-heure. And then we’ll come back with questions that have come from the various parties and that will be put -- put to you when we come back, and we’ll have another half hour of discussion and debate. Alors, lors de notre retour on pourra vous questionner avec des nouveaux propos, des nouvelles questions. Alors, une pause d’une demi-heure.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, not quite everyone.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Sorry to play ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Ah, hey there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Oui, et si je peux juste essayer de préciser un peu ce que je comprends et le concept, c’est, pour prendre l’exemple de Windsor et le pont Ambassador, protéger cette infrastructure — entre guillemets — implique le Fédéral qui a le poste frontalier et a la loi sur le pont, internationale, il y a la route d’accès qui est contrôlée par la province… euh, c’est-à-dire par la ville, qui connecte à la 401 qui est la route principale qui est « appartenue » par la province et ce… quand la route a été bloquée, ça n’avait rien à voir avec le poste frontalier parce que le Fédéral n’a aucune compétence au-delà de la porte du poste frontalier. Alors, la question est vraiment une… si on parle de protéger de l’infrastructure, est-ce qu’on devrait créer un concept juridique ou autre qui regroupe ces trois compétences-là et qui peut aussi transiger avec les Américains, parce que c’est un poste frontalier, et la protection peut être suite à un blocus par exemple, un blocage, ou ça peut être suite à un feu sur le pont ou… mais y’a rien… y’a aucun organisme, aucun plan qui implique ces trois compétences-là et pour seulement… on parle du pont. Alors, c’est un peu ça l’intention de la question, si je l’ai bien comprise.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Speak slowly.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
For real, yes. Bien, j’aimerais aussi remercier les panélistes, comme l’a fait la professeure MacDonnell. C’était très utile, très intéressant, puis on apprécie, la Commission apprécie beaucoup votre volonté de venir contribuer vos connaissances et répondre à nos questions. On behalf of the Commission, and myself, we're very, very thankful for the contributions. We thank you. We're always impressed having academics and people of your quality come and help us with some of the tough challenges we have. And I also want to thank you, Professor MacDonnell, for being here to coordinate and do -- moderate this panel. Again, very appreciated, especially in yesterday and back today, we're -- you're a double-dipper and we much appreciate it.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
So thank you, and we'll adjourn the Commission to tomorrow morning at 9:30. On va remettre jusqu’à demain matin 9 heures et demie. Merci beaucoup.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, good morning, all, and welcome to Day 3 of our policy hearings. And we have this morning a National Security and Public Order Emergencies topic. Nous avons ce matin un nouveau panel sur la sécurité nationale. Alors, aujourd’hui, nous avons Kent Roach qui va animer la session. So I'll just turn it over to Kent to introduce our speakers and our panelists and get the program going. Go ahead. Kent.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. You're back on mute, Kent.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Certainly is, and we'll take the break and see what questions have drifted in, and we'll call you, Kent, on your phone and figure out what the questions will be for this panel when we come back.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Professor Roach, we're back.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, I just want to echo Kent’s thanks to the panel. This was a very thoughtful panel; obviously you’ve given this a lot of thought. You were very helpful, and it’s for me a real pleasure to be listening to experts from the different -- well, it’s actually one area and -- but different perspectives; how’s that? And it’s -- it was very stimulating to me, stimulating thoughts, and I hope will be reflected in the ultimate report whenever I figure out what that’s going to look like. And, finally, I want to thank Kent for ably handling this and moving it along so well and focused on issues that I think are very important to the Commission. So with that, we’re going to break for the lunch and, again, mes sincères remerciements pour une excellente présentation et une excellente gestion du comité.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So we’re now into the afternoon session of today’s policies rounds. And it’s dealing with a little bit different subject: policing of public protests. So, c’est pour cet après-midi, ça va être les protêts et… comment… les polices doivent gérer ce genre d’évènements. Alors, nous avons des panélistes par excellence, j’ai hâte de les écouter, et nous avons quelqu’un, un modérateur par excellence, c’est, je crois, le professeur Williams. Alors, I’ll turn it over to Professor Williams to introduce our panel and get this going.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Can you just slow down a bit ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- for the interpreters? It’s ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- a bit of a challenge.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. No ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- I'm fine to ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- listen.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Cal’s got a -- his hand up.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, one question I have, just going back to what was talked about in terms of control; and I totally agree, it has to be clear who controls. But I guess one of the questions I have is, in a system that’s functioning wouldn’t the people involved, the Chiefs or Commissioners or whoever, normally work it out? And isn’t it normal -- we heard a lot of evidence about the experts; the experts in planning or experts in dealing with types of disturbances, and I just wonder whether automatic, it goes against what -- a bit I’ve described in terms of the expertise or the decision of who should do it, on a basis of those who have, really, the same responsibility, which is policing, whether they be federal, provincial, or otherwise. And often there is expertise that may not rest in what would be an automatic changeover. And the second dimension of that question is, does it make sense if -- to have automatic, if the complexion of the problem changes, and you would then change responsibility partway through, rather than a shared responsibility? And I’m interested in the Quebec experience, but my understanding is Quebec has a long tradition which is different than others. So anyways, that’s -- those are just sort of some questions, and I just throw them out there.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Just to thank the panel. It’s obviously a privilege for me to have people such as all of you, who are knowledgeable in the areas, come and help me with my work; and believe me, I need help. And it’s -- so I want to thank you very sincerely for your contributions; for your willingness to come; for the preparation that went into this. It's, for me, as I say, a great privilege to be able to have people come and help me about areas I’m now going to know a heck of a lot more than I ever thought I would have. And so thank you for that. And thank you, Michael, for doing a really great job in running the panel and making sure that it kept not only on track but addressed the issues that are important to me. So thank you all, and we will adjourn for the day and come back tomorrow with another policing issue, which will be debated. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Bonjour à tous et bienvenue à la quatrième journée de nos sessions de politiques. Welcome to our fourth policy day. Today, we're dealing with Police-Government Relations. Nous traitons des relations entre le gouvernement et la police. Alors, nous avons un panel d’excellence, on m’avise, alors il y a certains que j’ai déjà vus plus tôt cette semaine et d’autres qui sont nouveaux. So with that brief introduction, I'll turn it over to Professor Baker for -- to introduce our panelists.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I think we now take a break, and we'll see whether we've got some questions, and we'll come back with those questions and maybe some others, and have a half hour of discussion starting at noon.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’re back, and as I understand we have a few questions. So I turn it over to our Moderator.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. Well, thank you to all the panel members. It was very interesting. You've made a lot of recommendations. Some may find their way into a report, I'm not quite sure which or whether, but certainly you've been very helpful in sharing your knowledge, sharing your expertise, and sharing your thoughts. It's very appreciated. As always, I learn a lot, and I have learnt a lot today thanks to you all. So thank you to the -- all the panel members, and special thanks to you, Professor Baker, for your moderation, and I'm sure preparation for this, as everyone I'm sure has put a lot of time, and probably you a little bit more. So thanks again. We're going to adjourn until two o'clock, when we have another panel.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, well, good afternoon to all those who are online and to our guests who are here to debate another subject, this one more related to interjurisdictional response to protests and emergencies. Alors, bienvenue à tous. C’est une session qui va traiter des relations interjuridictionnelles pour les protêts et les urgences, alors ça va être un sujet qui va beaucoup plus près des différentes questions qu’on doit adresser sur la déclaration d’urgence. Alors, je vous remercie tous d’être venus. Sans plus tarder, je vais présenter la coordonnatrice pour la session, Jocelyn Stacey, professeure à l’école Allard School of Law à UBC. Alors, je vous laisse la parole. Maybe you can introduce our panelists.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Well, maybe I'd like to -- just a little bit more follow up to some of the comments made by Professor Newman about federal jurisdiction. Towards the beginning, he spoke about the issue of whether it was a -- an emergency would be within federal jurisdiction or not. And he made a couple of comments that I'm not sure if they were intended to deal with this situation or not, but he spoke that if it related to borders or the National Capital Region, it may be federal and not be related to -- or in provincial jurisdictions. And the evidence in this case is certainly that the borders were an issue, not technically the blockade at the border, but rather the blockade that in effect, blocked the border. And similarly, the National Capital Region, the occupation, as it's rereferred to on some cases, was in the National Capital Region. And I'd just like him to, if he can, to elaborate on what he was referring to and whether it's in fact related to the -- or could be tied to the events such that it was within federal jurisdiction or not.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I think we’re now at the time for the break so we’re going to take a break until 4:30 and see what questions come in and how we’re going to trouble you with further and seek further thoughts when we come back at 4:30, so a half-hour break.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No. I think it was a excellent panel. Oh, we have another question here. Hang on.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay. So I'll -- not seeing anymore hands I'm going to now thank my panelists, and in particular, I thank those who have come from afar to participate. Professor Newman from England, and President Sayers from the west. So thank you all for joining in this very interesting panel. Ce fut un grand plaisir de vous écouter et de voir les réflexions, les pensées, et, vraiment, un peu les idées que vous avez avancées. C’est très apprécié de ma part et de la part de la Commission, et on a certainement besoin de l’appui de gens comme vous pour des remue-méninges, pour trouver des idées, des pensées et comprendre les problèmes dont fait face la Commission et, en fin de compte, la communauté canadienne. So thanks very much for everything, for all the thoughts and contributions. And in particular, thank you for presiding over the group, Jocelyn, that was -- I'm sure there was a lot of background work that went into this, and also from the members, I'm sure, and that's very appreciated. So with my thanks, we're going to adjourn for the day, and resume tomorrow morning at 9:30. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Et bonjour à tous et toutes à la dernière journée des auditions de la Commission et la journée de nos sessions de politiques. Bienvenue à tous. C’est vraiment une journée et un panel mémorables. So it’s a pretty momentous day, the last day of the hearings and the last day of our panel, it’s -- of our policy panels. So it’s a momentous day and a very interesting panel that we have today. So without further ado, I will ask our moderator, Professor Lazar, to introduce our panellists.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
I mean, I don’t know. It’s up to the panel to figure it out. Certainly, on the facts of this case, the economic impact that was testified to resulted from the closure of the Ambassador Bridge and the impact on jobs, both in Canada and the US, that were affected within days of that blockade. So I think on the facts of this case, that’s the economic emergency that was discussed, but of course, economic emergencies can be broader.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
No, I think you're getting at the issues that I have to deal with, and very helpfully so I can ask.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Yes, it’s -- that’s the Parliamentary privilege.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so they will rise for a half hour and come back at ---
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
--- noon.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Thank you. Yes, okay. Thank you.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
Okay, so we’re back. Nous voilà de retour. La dernière portion. Allez-y, Madame la professeure Lazar.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
You’re on mute.
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Paul Rouleau, Commissioner (POEC)
And M. le commissaire est tres heureux. I'm very pleased with the -- I guess all of the submissions, comments, recommendations that have been made by this group. I'm -- I want to thank you all for your thoughtful participation. Obviously, you've put a lot of time in preparing and taken the time to participate, so thank you very much to all the participants, the panelists. Merci beaucoup à tous. And a special thanks to Professor Lazar who's put a lot of work to make sure this would be as productive as it has been. So thank you in particular to her for her ability as chair of this committee or this panel. Now this panel, in fact, concludes the Commission's policy phase. And I just -- if you -- you can actually get up and leave if you like. This is just going to be a brief closing statement that is -- because this is, in fact, the last public segment of the Commission's work. And over the last week, I've heard the views and perspectives of nearly 50 experts from a wide range of disciplines and perspectives the discussions have taken place during these roundtables, and they have been of great assistance to me as I consider the recommendations that I might make in a final report. So I'd like to take this opportunity to once again thank all of the participants in the hearings, I won't repeat them all, but in particular, the participants of the roundtables. Each of them devoted a great deal of effort and time to prepare for the hearings this week, and they took time out of their busy schedules, as did you all here, to join us in person or online. I appreciate the willingness of all who have volunteered their time and energy to assist me in discharging my mandate. I want to also thank the Commission's Research Council for their efforts to organise and coordinate these policy hearings. Without their hard work, this week would not have been possible. In particular, I wanted to thank Senior Counsel -- Commission Counsel Dan Sheppard, who put a great deal of effort in coordinating this, and also, the Chair of the Committee, Geneviève Cartier, who came in and took over this task and did an admiral job. So this concludes the Commission's public hearings. I'm told that since we started on October 13th, it seems like a long time ago, we've held over 300 hours of hearings, and entered more than 9,000 exhibits into evidence. J’entamerai maintenant ma réflexion sur les informations que j’ai reçues au cours de ces 36 derniers jours et j’attends avec intérêt de recevoir les observations des parties sur les aspects factuels et politiques de mon mandat, ils sont dus dans à peu près une semaine. Une fois ces observations reçues, je me concentrerai sur la préparation de mon rapport final qui sera déposé au début de la nouvelle année. J’espère que ce rapport aidera le public à comprendre les évènements de janvier et février 2022 et en particulier à comprendre ce que le gouvernement fédéral a fait, pourquoi il l’a fait, et si ces actions étaient justifiées. Je tiens encore à remercier tous ceux et celles qui ont participé à ce processus. Thank you to everyone who participated in this process. I want to thank you all. Je vous remercie tous. We'll adjourn for the day and until the report is filed I guess. Thank you, all. Merci.